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Hollywood Accounting — How Harry Potter Loses Money

An anonymous reader writes "Techdirt has the details on how it was possible for the last Harry Potter movie to lose $167 million while taking in nearly $1 billion in revenue. If you ever wanted to see 'Hollywood Accounting' in action, take a look. The article also notes two recent court decisions that may raise questions about Hollywood's ability to continue with these kinds of tricks. For example, the producers of 'Who Wants To Be A Millionaire' now have to pay $270 million for its attempt to get around paying a partner through similar tricks."

447 comments

  1. Peter Jackson by jjohnson · · Score: 5, Informative

    Peter Jackson had to sue New Line Cinema to get paid for LotR. New Line claimed they lost money on the trilogy.

    --
    Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
    1. Re:Peter Jackson by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They very well could have - but thats not a director's fault.

      I expect to be paid for writing an application or website if I'm contracted to do it, regardless if its used or not.

    2. Re:Peter Jackson by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Peter Jackson had to sue New Line Cinema to get paid for LotR. New Line claimed they lost money on the trilogy.

      Indeed, on top of that I recall the Tolkein Trust suing New Line for hundreds of millions after New Line only paid them $62,000 for the rights to the movies. New Line apparently claimed that was 7.5 percent of the gross of the films. Isn't that the standard these days? (as the article notes)

      --
      My work here is dung.
    3. Re:Peter Jackson by God'sDuck · · Score: 5, Funny

      Wait...if they claim they are losing money on every copy they sell, aren't the pirates saving them money?

    4. Re:Peter Jackson by blair1q · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Saving, no. Making, yes.

    5. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Jackson's contract is for a cut. What's crazy is, in hollywood everyone knows to ask for a cut of the *gross*, not net. I can buy the idea of magic rings, elves, dwarves, hobbits, dragons, ents, wizards, and so forth, but a net reported profit on a Hollywood movie? That's just fantasy.

    6. Re:Peter Jackson by nedlohs · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's because you contract doesn't say "will be paid X% of gross income", whereas Peter Jackson's did.

      And of course he did get paid, he just got paid less than he should have because New Line sold the rights to sister companies for below market value.

    7. Re:Peter Jackson by mysidia · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's why piracy has GOT to be stopped immediately. It foils the movie makers' tax dodge (and revenue sharing dodge)

      Let's see them bring THAT justification to congress, on why it is imperative for the economy to make tougher anti-pirate laws

    8. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because you contract doesn't say "will be paid X% of gross income", whereas Peter Jackson's did.

      And of course he did get paid, he just got paid less than he should have because New Line sold the rights to sister companies for below market value.

      Not only that, but New Line had related companies charge themselves much more than market value for services rendered.

    9. Re:Peter Jackson by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's been the standard for years, and it's been one of the things that really pisses me off, that while the MPAA is going after movie pirates claiming theft, their members have been stealing money from investors and the tax man for decades. Even where the contract stipulates a percentage of gross, dirty tricks have been used to screw over directors, actors and other investors. The only reason most of Hollywood's accountants and producers aren't rotting in jail for embezzlement is because the movie industry has been this walled garden for many decades, seen as to valuable to peel back the layers to discover the crooks running the show.

      In the past, what stopped folks from getting too uppety was buy offs. Most folks are pretty pragmatic, and will take 25% or 50% of what they're owed rather than going through the long, arduous and expensive process of actually moving a lawsuit all the way to the courtroom. I don't know whether the studios don't have as much money to buy off the people they've screwed, or whether some people, like Don Johnson, who just won $20 million bucks that he had been scammed out of over a similar deal for the Nash Bridges TV series are just saying "enough is enough", but if this becomes the rule, the MPAA's members are going to have bigger things to worry about than the Pirate Bay.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    10. Re:Peter Jackson by sconeu · · Score: 0

      $62,000 was 7.5 of the Gross????

      That means the trilogy only took in $826,000?

      Remember, Gross means box office intake, before expenses.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    11. Re:Peter Jackson by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      That wouldn't matter, since that just lowers the net, and he had a cut of gross. Though I'm sure other people had a cut of net, and maybe he had a cut of net as well in the mix.

    12. Re:Peter Jackson by OnePumpChump · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "In the past, what stopped folks from getting too uppety was buy offs. Most folks are pretty pragmatic, and will take 25% or 50% of what they're owed rather than going through the long, arduous and expensive process of actually moving a lawsuit all the way to the courtroom. "

      Yeah, they've just delved too greedily and too deep. Someone might settle for half of what they're owed if the amount is tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, but for tens or hundreds of millions of dollars, that years-long court battle might be worth it.

    13. Re:Peter Jackson by tomhath · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's been that way from the beginning of Hollywood; was one of the main reason Charlie Chaplin and a few others founded United Artists way back in 1919.

    14. Re:Peter Jackson by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your right, it wouldn't matter. In fact, that was part of the point, he had to sue in order to prove it didn't matter. The movie companies on the other hand, had different ideas altogether and thought it would matter and that it would allow them to scalp more of the money- which was the other part of the point with the Hollywood accounting).

    15. Re:Peter Jackson by HungryHobo · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm guessing it may have been arranged something like-

      Person P has a contract with company N for x% of the gross that company N earns from the film.

      Company N sells everything to company M for 1 dollar making a total gross profit of 1 dollar.

      Company M then goes on to release the film and make a pile of money big enough to swim around in but person P has no contract with company M so gets no cut of that.

      P is paid almost nothing.
      M and N are owned by the same parent company.

      of course this is just my uneducated guess.

    16. Re:Peter Jackson by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 4, Funny

      I saw a similar scheme on the streets of New York involving 3 cards.

    17. Re:Peter Jackson by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      Someone might settle for half of what they're owed if the amount is tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, but for tens or hundreds of millions of dollars, that years-long court battle might be worth it.

      If I KNEW someone owed me 100 million, and came to me and offered me 50 million (had the cash there, with a treasury representative certifying the money was legitimate). I'd probably take the 50 million. These sorts of cases will last for years, and probably burn off at least 2-3 million in legal fees even if you win.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    18. Re:Peter Jackson by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Insightful

      he only reason most of Hollywood's accountants and producers aren't rotting in jail for embezzlement is because the movie industry has been this walled garden for many decades, seen as to valuable to peel back the layers to discover the crooks running the show.

      I'm not sure if the reason is some walled off garden. Remember McCarthy? There is a shinning example of what can go wrong if you start digging into Hollywood too deeply. They control the media more so then any politician or political group could ever hope for in their wildest wet dreams. And being Hollywood with years of experience in making statements without making statements to sway the public subliminally or subconsciously instead of directly, their power is almost unrivaled by any other threat that any politician would see in their lifetime.

      If you don't believe me, just look at how the coverage of the BP oil spill has moved to Lindsey going to jail with a fingernail painted to say Fuck You.

    19. Re:Peter Jackson by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      That wouldn't matter, since that just lowers the net, and he had a cut of gross. Though I'm sure other people had a cut of net, and maybe he had a cut of net as well in the mix. AFAIK, New Line sold rights such as merchandising rights to sister companies. Those sister companies made boatloads of money, but the "gross" revenue from merchandising was calculated based on how those sister companies paid the film company -- and that was below market (and even if it had been at market rates, it would have been based on a net figure).

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    20. Re:Peter Jackson by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      $settlement="Take the $payout or we will release the footage of you doing that nice $teen, while high on $drug at the $company_party."

      - Dan.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    21. Re:Peter Jackson by mcgrew · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Honest people think most other people are honest, while thieves think everyone is a thief. If you see any kind of DRM on anything, you can be pretty sure its creator is a thief, and a stupid one at that.

    22. Re:Peter Jackson by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      If it said "gross income," they would have no legal leg to stand on not to pay him. I almost guarantee the contract said "net income."

    23. Re:Peter Jackson by OnePumpChump · · Score: 1

      Baby, at what point would you quit botherin to look for your two million dollars?

    24. Re:Peter Jackson by Idbar · · Score: 1

      Well, if they keep losing money, poor little creatures, even with the most successful movies. Why do they keep having money and wasting it making movies?
      They deserve an Oscar for their performance, and possibly a bailout too!

    25. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what are you, stupid? If I'm a hotshot young author in need of some money, so I sell you 2% of my remaining gross life's earnings from literary output for, well, for how much? You decide what you will pay, then continue reading.

      Okay, now you've decided what you're paying me for 2% of my gross revenues from writing books for the rest of my life. Great. Now I sell sell each of the rest of my books, there are 23 of them... but I don't sell them on the market at large. I sell them to my wife. For $150 each.

      Which she then publishes, not paying me any more. Are you happy with this arrangement? With the $150 * 2% * 23 books = 69 dollars you get? How does that compare with the sum you decided in your head earlier?

      The way I see it, that 69 dollars represents exactly the position my my wife and I are doing, while you're getting screwed in the rear.

    26. Re:Peter Jackson by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      If you don't believe me, just look at how the coverage of the BP oil spill has moved to Lindsey going to jail with a fingernail painted to say Fuck You.

      While you may or may not be correct in your thesis, you do realize that people are still suffering in Haiti, right? Is it possible that 'the news' just has a really short attention span? Or are we to assume that BP also bribed Hollywood to stop reporting on that whole earthquake mess as well?

    27. Re:Peter Jackson by feepness · · Score: 4, Funny

      So what you're saying is, you're a thief.

    28. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If there was ever a scuzzy industry that needed to broken into a million little pieces...

    29. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honest people think most other people are honest, while thieves think everyone is a thief. If you see any kind of DRM on anything, you can be pretty sure its creator is a thief, and a stupid one at that.

      So by this logic, by believing the creator is a thief, you are now also a thief. So now that you're a thief, the creator of said DRM was correct in thinking you're a thief. The simple act of the creator to think that his users are thieves actually made it so!

      Whoa. Mind-Bottling!

    30. Re:Peter Jackson by RockyPersaud · · Score: 1

      If you look at the budget in the TFA, you can see Warner Brothers simply redefined Gross to mean Net. I assume that's what New Line did too.

    31. Re:Peter Jackson by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your reading comprehension is a bit flawed today. I didn't say that honest people thought everyone was honest; you only have to be ripped off once to know that not everyone is honest. Most people are honest, me included. But thieves think everyone is a thief.

    32. Re:Peter Jackson by virtualchoirboy · · Score: 5, Informative

      A cut of the *gross* may not even work. If I'm reading the various blogs correctly, what the movie studios do is set up a new company for the production of each movie, lend that new company a ton of cash for the creation of the movie. The studio then has to get paid back before any net or gross calculations are performed because it's a loan repayment, not a cost of production. Since it's a loan, they also get to charge interest. Thus, with a big enough initial "loan" and corresponding interest rate, it's possible to rig things so that no movie ever turns a profit - regardless of the quality or box office draw. /props for the creative way of avoiding payouts //still think it's equivalent to stealing

    33. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Never trust anyone who claims they are honest.

    34. Re:Peter Jackson by Richard+Steiner · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If they gave you 50 million, why not turn around and spent that 2-3 million to make them think twice about trying to screw you again?

      --
      Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
      The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
    35. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A balrog certainly won't settle for less than what it wants after you delve too greedily and deep.

    36. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Knowledge of the world makes you a thief?

      Colour me a thief then, please!

      He didn't say that it takes one to know one. Did he assume that you stole his text with your eyes?

      I guess it's a fad to consume sayings mixed and confused.

    37. Re:Peter Jackson by brit74 · · Score: 1

      Yup, and everyone who locks their car or puts locks on their house is also a thief. (According to your logic, anyway.)

    38. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the dumbest comment I've seen all day.

    39. Re:Peter Jackson by wangmaster · · Score: 1

      Stan Lee did the same. His contract with Marvel gives him 10% of the profits for various Marvel comics characters such as Spider-Man. He won his lawsuit in 2005 for the first spider-man movie because Marvel Entertainment claimed that the 10% was after production and "distribution" costs. I understand production costs, but the article here basically describes the scam behind "distirbution" costs.

    40. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another failure to comprehend the difference between 'most other people' and 'everyone'...

    41. Re:Peter Jackson by xero314 · · Score: 0

      Yup, and everyone who locks their car or puts locks on their house is also a thief.

      Well lets see, you would be place a restriction on the use of a resource that was at one point taken by force from someone else. Yes, your house is built from resource that came from stolen land. Your has exists on top of stolen land. You car is also made from resource from stolen land. If I steal your house, turn it into something else, sell it to someone else and they proceed to lock you out of the resource that is rightfully yours, then they are indeed a thief.

      Or are you so bold as to think the property you now own was never once forcefully taken from someone else without their fully knowledgeable consent?

    42. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you? Oh crap now so am I...

    43. Re:Peter Jackson by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      its creator is a thief

      So what you're saying is, you're a thief.

      thieves think everyone is a thief.

      So what you're trying to say is, "Yes."

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    44. Re:Peter Jackson by jbezorg · · Score: 1

      But thieves think everyone is a thief.

      Except thieves who pray on honest people....

      Faulty! Faulty!

      The machine begins self-destruction, shaking about in place instead of steadily hovering, its simulated voice rising in pitch. The ultra-logical Mr. Spock, who has been watching this confrontation, compliments Kirk, saying: "Your logic is impeccable, Captain. We are in grave danger." At the last moment, Kirk has Nomad rushed to the transporter room and beamed into space. Seconds after transport an explosion is detected near the Enterprise and Nomad is no more.

      --
      I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
    45. Re:Peter Jackson by peragrin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      not to be mean but haiti is a whole other kind of mess. If that was America or Chili, or just about any where else, the locals wouldn't wait for foreigners to show up to fix the docks and airport.

      We would have cleared the roads straighten out the airport, and had the dock ready to receive ships with out waiting for some one else to do it for us.

      haiti wants someone else to fix the place. to many foreign donors over the decades have taken away their self sufficiency.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    46. Re:Peter Jackson by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      No argument, but the point remains, it is still as much a mess as it was after the quake - yet no new news coverage.

    47. Re:Peter Jackson by masmullin · · Score: 1

      there is a theory that Warner Brothers and their anti-nazi propaganda won the war.

    48. Re:Peter Jackson by masmullin · · Score: 1

      So by your logic, I am a robot, because I think everyone else is robot?

      domoarigato Mr McGrew

      (just kidding, your original post was absolutely correct)

    49. Re:Peter Jackson by masmullin · · Score: 2, Informative

      thieves dont believe in honest people... just stupid thieves. Therefore, thieves dont prey on honest people; thieves prey on stupider thieves.

      Machine fixed.

    50. Re:Peter Jackson by masmullin · · Score: 1

      I didn't place the lock on my door. Someone else did and sold it to me. I usually forget to lock it.

      I lock my car because my mommy yells at me if I dont.

    51. Re:Peter Jackson by masmullin · · Score: 1

      I dont accept the production costs. if I had a contract for 10% gross profits I want my money for gross profits... I dont give a shit that they spent 1Billion making a movie that raked in 1Billion at the box office... I want my 10% of that box office.

      If the movie companies dont like that, they shouldn't sign a contract that says gross profits.

    52. Re:Peter Jackson by feepness · · Score: 1

      So wait, then I must be thief!

    53. Re:Peter Jackson by jbezorg · · Score: 1

      thieves dont believe in honest people... just stupid thieves. Therefore, thieves dont prey on honest people; thieves prey on stupider thieves.

      Machine fixed.

      Actually. You are wrong because I can name a specific type of Thief that actually relies on the victim to be honest ( and stupid to some degree ). Debt collector who make false claims in a hope that the person named in the claim would take an honest course of action and pay without a challenge.

      We can argue over semantics, but the core of the scam is relying on the victim to think the claim is legitimate and take an honest course of action. The scam won't work if the Thief thinks the victim is also a Thief. There is too much of a chance that the victim will challenge the claim to try to escape the false claim against them and thus reveal the scam.

      --
      I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
    54. Re:Peter Jackson by brit74 · · Score: 1

      I lock my car because my mommy yells at me if I dont.
      Obviously, your mother's a thief. You are now justified in stealing everything you want from her.

    55. Re:Peter Jackson by brit74 · · Score: 1

      I'm filing your comment under "pirates extend their logic to other domains of life and discover that it's perfectly acceptable to steal physical property". I'm not really surprised.

    56. Re:Peter Jackson by Miseph · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What the hell kind of hitman charges 2-3 million? Maybe if you were going for a paranoid military dictator or something, but most of these guys don't even have a real security detail.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    57. Re:Peter Jackson by teknifix · · Score: 1

      If by profits you mean revenue, then yeah.. otherwise the production costs have to be factored in.. in fact all expenses need to be factored into the box office revenue to determine the profit. I imagine this is where the highly paid accountants in black suits and black SUV's come in to make sure there are no profits.

    58. Re:Peter Jackson by zemkai · · Score: 1

      Ah... good times... good times...

    59. Re:Peter Jackson by geezer+nerd · · Score: 1

      I have this incredible vision of thieves grabbing honest people, throwing them flat on the ground, and then kneeling on their backs while the thieves then pay homage to whatever deity they believe in. Seems like the beginning of a movie plot ...

    60. Re:Peter Jackson by PachmanP · · Score: 1

      Obviously, your mother's a thief. You are now justified in stealing everything you want from her.

      What would I steal from my mother? She gives me interwebs and room in the basement. With that I have need of nothing more.

      --
      You're thinking small. Why miniaturize the laser, when we could instead enlarge the sharks? -John Searle
    61. Re:Peter Jackson by rastoboy29 · · Score: 1

      Well said.

    62. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and congress shall look the other way.

    63. Re:Peter Jackson by dave87656 · · Score: 1

      A cut of the *gross* may not even work. ... Thus, with a big enough initial "loan" and corresponding interest rate, it's possible to rig things so that no movie ever turns a profit

      The profit doesn't matter, it's the gross revenues, which are not affected by interest, expenses and so on.

    64. Re:Peter Jackson by xero314 · · Score: 1

      And I will file yours under "it doesn't matter how much blood was spilled to acquire my diamonds, I just bought the things."

      The funny part is that you equate anything I would say to pro piracy.

    65. Re:Peter Jackson by Captain+Hook · · Score: 1

      We would have cleared the roads straighten out the airport, and had the dock ready to receive ships with out waiting for some one else to do it for us.

      How did that work out for you in New Orleans?

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    66. Re:Peter Jackson by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Gross Profits, or Gross Receipts?

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    67. Re:Peter Jackson by Tuoqui · · Score: 1

      Which subsequently turned around a few years later and started doing the same thing themselves?

      --
      09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
      +2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
    68. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was that the House of Cards on Wall Street by any chance?

    69. Re:Peter Jackson by skila · · Score: 1

      That was not the House of Cards on Wall Street perchance?

    70. Re:Peter Jackson by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Jackson had a cut of gross. The gross was deflated because they sold it to a subsidiary for a loss to steal money from Jackson. Also, there are different "gross" numbers. There's gross after distribution, and the studios charge 33% (or more) for distribution so the studios always charge on gross off the top for themselves, and will often take the post-distribution gross as the "gross" they use for others.

    71. Re:Peter Jackson by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      If by profits you mean revenue, then yeah.. otherwise the production costs have to be factored in.. in fact all expenses need to be factored into the box office revenue to determine the profit.

      There's already a specific term for that. "Net profit."

    72. Re:Peter Jackson by Rary · · Score: 1

      If I'm reading the various blogs correctly, what the movie studios do is set up a new company for the production of each movie, lend that new company a ton of cash for the creation of the movie.

      Not only that, but the studio can bill the corporation for services provided. For example, the movie has to get distributed. The studio handles the distribution. On paper, this gets recorded as a service provided to the corporation, and the studio can pick a number out of their ass, like, say, $500 million, and bill the corporation that amount for the service. Since the studio is the corporation, no money actually changes hands. However, the corporation now has a $500 million expense that can be used to offset whatever revenues actually came in. That amount is completely fictitious, but perfectly legitimate from an accounting perspective.

      At least, that's my understanding of it. I could be wrong.

      By the way, "Hollywood Accounting" has prevented David Prowse from receiving royalties for Return of the Jedi. Apparently he's still waiting for that movie to start making a profit.

      --

      "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein

    73. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's to hire a whole mercenary company to off not only them but all blood relatives 3 generations up or down the family tree :)

    74. Re:Peter Jackson by ATMAvatar · · Score: 1

      Debt collector who make false claims in a hope that the person named in the claim would take an honest course of action and pay without a challenge.

      I think you are confusing honest with stupid.

      If some debt collector came to me with a false claim, I would honestly tell him where he could stick the claim. An intelligent person should keep records of their debts and to whom they are owed.

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    75. Re:Peter Jackson by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      no, the ACCOUNTANTS are losing the money they lawfully swindled!
      After all, the studios and labels already have their swindling done... they won't have to pay out any more to actual artists or workers... piracy is taking away their "free money" and nobody likes their free lunch taken away.

    76. Re:Peter Jackson by teknifix · · Score: 1

      I'm fairly certain the definition of profit is total revenue less expenses. Gross and net profit sound like terms you'd use when dealing with contracts or expenses that deal with only the profit in the venture and not with the total revenue. Or it's doublespeak for "we aren't going to pay you."

    77. Re:Peter Jackson by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Reading comprehension? You;re barely literate. Nowhere did I say everyone was a thief. In fact I said the opposite; most people are honest. Why is someone too stupid to understand such a simple statement at slashdot?

    78. Re:Peter Jackson by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      There was an episode of Big Bang where Leonard asks Sheldon "If you were a robot, would you want to know?" They convince him that he's an Asimov robot because he doesn't hurt others or himself, and follows his superiors' orders. So...

      Hi, Sheldon! ;)

    79. Re:Peter Jackson by TangoMargarine · · Score: 0, Troll

      I do so love it when people tell me I can't read when I disagree with them.

      thieves think everyone is a thief. If you see any kind of DRM on anything, you can be pretty sure its creator is a thief, and a stupid one at that.

      The majority of proprietary games released these days are DRM-encumbered, therefore (by your own logic) the majority of proprietary game producers are thieves, therefore you are calling a majority of said producers thieves, therefore you are a thief. Maybe if feepness had elucidated his chain of reasoning we could have avoided this whole nasty insulting of English proficiencies, etc.

      I can see that you have a wholly adequate understanding of English, so lacking grounds for insulting your abilities in that area, I will call you rude. "Here, have some spaghetti; you're very rude."

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    80. Re:Peter Jackson by jbezorg · · Score: 1

      I'm batting 1000 on the bad English.

      --
      I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
    81. Re:Peter Jackson by jbezorg · · Score: 1

      Honest and stupid are not exclusive.

      I did qualify by adding "relies on the victim to be honest ( and stupid to some degree )".

      --
      I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
    82. Re:Peter Jackson by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      What you disagreed with isn't what I said. I now realise you're just trolling, so goodbye.

    83. Re:Peter Jackson by RivieraKid · · Score: 1

      That's a logical fallacy.

      Just because thieves think everyone is a thief, it does not follow that if you think someone is a thief, then so are you.

      --
      "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves
    84. Re:Peter Jackson by RivieraKid · · Score: 1

      No, they are not mutually exclusive, and while I agree with your general point I think your example was flawed. It depends (like most scams) on people (honest or otherwise) being fooled. There is no requirement for the victim to be honest.

      --
      "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves
    85. Re:Peter Jackson by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      A lot of companies apply DRM. Ergo, there are a lot of thieves. QED.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    86. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No argument, but the point remains, it is still as much a mess as it was after the quake - yet no new news coverage.

      Wait, you're saying that it's weird that the news does not cover the "old"?
      Sounds pretty much like the definition of "news" to me...

    87. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      still think it's equivalent to stealing

      Since it's so close to stealing, how about we call it "piracy?"

    88. Re:Peter Jackson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No.

      AIR, in Hollywood one asks for the "Gross Gross." As I understand it the "Gross" in Motion Picture accounting is not what everyone else, and generally accepted accounting princples defines as the "Gross." Their Gross is whats left after certain distribution expenses or something like that.

      Might search for the Gilligan's Island case.

    89. Re:Peter Jackson by davidbofinger · · Score: 1

      Just because thieves think everyone is a thief, it does not follow that if you think someone is a thief, then so are you.

      The relevant statements are, "Honest people think most other people are honest" and "If you see any kind of DRM on anything, you can be pretty sure its creator is a thief". The syllogism is that if he sees lots of DRM about then he must think most people are dishonest and therefore can't be honest himself.

      The case is far from airtight: the speaker might believe that most creators are thieves but most people aren't (you just can't trust artistic types) or he might believe most creators never use DRM. But there's no need to rely on the statement about thieves so it isn't really the logical fallacy you traduce.

    90. Re:Peter Jackson by RivieraKid · · Score: 1

      Whether honest people believe that other people are honest is wholly irrelevant to the reality of whether people are honest or not.

      The presence or absence of DRM on a software product is rarely, if ever a decision of the actual creators of that product, rather, it is a property of the distribution channel. Now, you could make the point that the big game producers want to have the DRM - but that's their distribution arm making the requirement, not the creative arm. The game producer as a whole requiring DRM is not the same as the creative people behind the game requiring it.

      Nothing you've said contradicts my statement. Just believing that somebody is a thief does not make you yourself a thief, and this is easily provable.

      Do you believe that the bankers who caused the recent economic crisis were thieves?
      Do you believe that the bankers who gladly too taxpayer's money as bailouts and then promptly gave themselves huge bonuses with it are thieves?
      Do you believe that Bernie Madoff was a thief?

      If you answered yes to any of those, well congratulations - by your argument, you're also a thief regardless of whether you stole anything or not.

      But there's no need to rely on the statement about thieves so it isn't really the logical fallacy you traduce.

      There's every reason to concentrate on that statement since that's the one with the error in it, and is the central point to the argument.

      Honest people think most other people are honest

      Is a perfectly valid, self consistent statement, no need to criticise that one.

      If you see any kind of DRM on anything, you can be pretty sure its creator is a thief

      Is the central argument and is provable totally bogus and should rightly be criticised. Based solely on the arguments presented, the *only* thing you can be pretty sure of is that DRM is present. DRM says nothing at all about whether the creator is a thief or not - absolutely nothing. Now, it may very well be that the creator is in fact a thief, but the existence of DRM is wholly incidental to that fact. DRM implies an unhealthy, obsessive desire to control what people do with your product long after you have sold it and therefore by most standards should no longer have control over it. It does not necessarily imply the creator/producer/distributor is a thief. Theft requires that you are taking somebody's property with the intention of permanently depriving them of it.

      You could argue that the recent Sony debacle with OtherOS is theft, and I might even agree with you, but much as I hate DRM myself, I can at least see clearly enough to realise that while DRM can enable control, it is up to the rights holder to exercise it.

      --
      "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves
    91. Re:Peter Jackson by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > Therefore, thieves dont prey on honest people; thieves prey on stupider thieves.

      "Lie to a liar, for lies are his trade. Steal from a thief, for that is easy. Beware an honest man." -- Mathurin Kerbouchard

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    92. Re:Peter Jackson by LaRainette · · Score: 1

      Yes of course...
      Just Look at New Orleans! I mean the thing was cleared and rebuilt in what 2 days?
      Oh wait...

      Again if the Haitian people wasn't starving to death already BEFORE the earthquake and if they had say trucks and tractors and such maybe they could clean the "mess" and rebuild faster. Sadly they do not.
      And keep in mind this is a tragedy of a magnitude so much greater than anything the USA or Europe has had to recover from since WW II.
      250,000 dead people, and every fucking building destroyed. And they are cleaning it with shovels.

    93. Re:Peter Jackson by davidbofinger · · Score: 1

      Whether honest people believe that other people are honest is wholly irrelevant to the reality of whether people are honest or not.

      I would largely agree with you. But mcgrew said

      Honest people think most other people are honest

      so we can't rule out mcgrew being honest, but we can pretty much rule out that mcgrew believes himself to be honest. Assuming he's thinking clearly enough to understand the consequences of his statements.

      Tangomargarine quoted the line about thieves which was a mistake on his part. He should have quoted the phrase about honest people. But it's in the nature of a slip rather than a serious logical flaw.

      The presence or absence of DRM on a software product is rarely, if ever a decision of the actual creators of that product, rather, it is a property of the distribution channel.

      That doesn't affect feepness's conclusion, since feepness doesn't care whether mcgrew's statements are true, only that mcgrew made them. But it's an interesting point and would be a good argument of the implausibility of mcgrew's initial claim.

      Nothing you've said contradicts my statement. Just believing that somebody is a thief does not make you yourself a thief, and this is easily provable.

      I agree. But the debate isn't about whether that is true, it's about the consequences of mcgrew's premise that "Honest people think most other people are honest". Nobody said mcgrew was a thief, just that mcrew was saying mcgrew was a thief. (Which isn't quite true, but close enough to true that it's reasonable to ask mcgrew to clarify.)

    94. Re:Peter Jackson by davidbofinger · · Score: 1

      The more precise chain of logic is "The majority of proprietary games released these days are DRM-encumbered, therefore mcgrew says the majority of proprietary game producers are thieves, therefore mcgrew is calling a majority of said producers thieves, therefore mcgrew is calling the majority of such producers dishonest, and making a jump from there to calling most people dishonest, we conclude that mcgrew must believe himself to be dishonest." Which is a little bodgy in places but if mcgrew wants to disagree with a particular step he can.

  2. Not a new trick by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 3, Informative

    The producers of Forrest Gump used the same math to claim a loss on that one too.

    1. Re:Not a new trick by Yvan256 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Shrimps are expensive.

    2. Re:Not a new trick by blair1q · · Score: 5, Funny

      Life is like a box of chocolates...where someone has eaten the middle out of every one.

    3. Re:Not a new trick by Midnight's+Shadow · · Score: 2, Informative

      And Star Wars (4-6) - the guy who was actually in Darth Vader's suite never got paid for the role.

      --
      "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. " -Voltaire
    4. Re:Not a new trick by copponex · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bubba knew all there was to know about the movie business...

      "There's dumb fucks, stupid fucks, lying fucks, stealing fucks, lawyer fucks, producer fucks, and they're all trying to fuck you out of your ideas and passion. And that's... that's about it."

    5. Re:Not a new trick by 91degrees · · Score: 1, Troll

      He probably got paid. The contract would have been for basic rate + royalties. He just didn't get royalties.

    6. Re:Not a new trick by schon · · Score: 1, Troll

      the guy who was actually in Darth Vader's suite never got paid

      I thought movies used trailers, not hotel rooms.

      and wouldn't Darth Vader be in Darth Vader's suite? Or are you talking about his bodyguard or something? (I would think it would be the actor's responsibility to pay his staff.)

      And if you're talking about the actor (or maybe the guy in the suit), instead of his entourage, why would you talk about where he stayed? Why not mention him specifically?

    7. Re:Not a new trick by nizo · · Score: 1

      I thought movies used trailers, not hotel rooms.

      Yes, because watching a hotel room for three minutes doesn't bring in moviegoers.

    8. Re:Not a new trick by MalHavoc · · Score: 1

      and actually, yes, he did. He was paid $12,000 for his role in the first movie of the original trilogy. It was the latter two movies that he was screwed over on. Still, your point is made.

    9. Re:Not a new trick by Midnight's+Shadow · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes that was a bad typo. So lets try this again to appease all the idiots who can't figure it out.

      David Prowse the person who was the on screen presence of Darth Vader in A new Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi never got his full compensation for his part in the movies due to the same accounting tricks mentioned here.

      Better?

      --
      "God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. " -Voltaire
    10. Re:Not a new trick by zoocey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      and it bit them in the ass. They successfully screwed over the author of the book the movie was based on. Rumor has it that they wanted to film a sequel, but said author refused to allow it. As clearly there is no point in filming a sequel to an unprofitable film.

    11. Re:Not a new trick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Star Wars (4-6) - the guy who was actually in Darth Vader's suite never got paid for the role.

      You mean Darth Vader's SUIT.

    12. Re:Not a new trick by notommy · · Score: 1

      I would like to point out that this sort of accounting is not a new trick anywhere, not just in hollywood. This happens all the time, where a company would pay its sub fees above the fair market value of the service provided in order to create losses. The problem here is not the fact that they paid themselves, but paid too much.

      Ideally, The terms for these types of related party transactions should be set out in the contract. Not bickered over after in courts. Especially since this has been going on for ages and ages.

    13. Re:Not a new trick by damnfuct · · Score: 5, Funny

      And Star Wars (4-6) - the guy who was actually in Darth Vader's suite never got paid for the role.

      I mean, why should he? That freeloading bas**rd was just hanging around Vader's suite? Being such a key figure in the Empire, he's probably got his suite outfitted with all sorts of luxuries.
      note: suite and not suit

    14. Re:Not a new trick by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Almost, but you left out the part where you provide a link to a reputable source showing evidence of your claim.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    15. Re:Not a new trick by geekoid · · Score: 1

      I would find it hard to believe he didn't get scale.
      I was curious, so I looked it up:
      http://filmdrunk.uproxx.com/2009/04/lucasfilm-still-not-paying-vader-actor

      The actor claims he didn't get paid residuals for the revenge^H^H^H^H^H^H^H return of the jedi.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    16. Re:Not a new trick by geekoid · · Score: 1

      that was suite.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    17. Re:Not a new trick by dranga · · Score: 1

      Simpsons did it! Oh, wait, this isn't a cartoon...

      --
      Oh no, not again.
    18. Re:Not a new trick by whatajoke · · Score: 1

      Replying to undo funny moderation :|

    19. Re:Not a new trick by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 1

      I think they spent it all on advertising the DVD.

      I remember seeing like 2 ads for the DVD for awhile, during every commercial break for a show.

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    20. Re:Not a new trick by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Offtopic, but fun:

      David Prowse (aka "the guy who was actuallin Darth Vader's suit") appeared for a few moments as Hotblack Desiato's bodyguard in the original H2G2 TV series.

    21. Re:Not a new trick by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ideally, no company should ever be allowed to bill a division of itself under any circumstances. Any staff employed by the company is already part of the normal operating cost of the company, and therefore, by definition, not an expense specific to any particular project. If a project would cause a division to be overworked and have to bring in more people, the correct answer is, "No," at which point the requesting division would have to decide if it was important enough to hire someone themselves. And in the case of contractors hired by one division to do contract work for another, there's no good reason for the middleman, so the contractors should be paid directly by the requesting division instead.

      Fundamentally, a contract between two parts of the same company cannot be an arms length transaction. It simply isn't possible. The sooner we acknowledge that as a society and refuse to allow companies to sign contracts with themselves, the sooner we'll be able to put these ridiculously abusive business practices behind us.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    22. Re:Not a new trick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better?

      You mean besides the run-on sentence and punctuation errors? Or were those deliberate? (eg. are you asking me if I prefer spelling or punctuation/grammatical errors?)

      Two things:

      1. Improve your spelling and punctuation

      2. Get yourself a sense of humor.

    23. Re:Not a new trick by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Where have you been? It's been posted on Slashdot and elsewhere numerous time. Requiring a source for every claim is just being anal especially for something so easily verifiable by yourself with a google search.

    24. Re:Not a new trick by lightversusdark · · Score: 1

      Hence the writer refuses to sell the rights to the sequel saying:
      "I cannot in good conscience allow money to be wasted on a failure".
      I love that quote.

      --
      "There is nothing nice about Steve Jobs and nothing evil about Bill Gates." - Chuck Peddle
    25. Re:Not a new trick by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this would be the part where you apologize for being pedantic.

    26. Re:Not a new trick by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 0, Troll

      The burden of proof falls on the person making the claim. One is not under any obligation to prove someone else's claim.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    27. Re:Not a new trick by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes but there is demanding a source for something that sounds odd and then there is just being a dork and asking for sources for any claim in hopes they won't do it and thus their comment is deemed invalid and giving yourself some sort of self satisfaction.

    28. Re:Not a new trick by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      I thought movies used trailers, not hotel rooms.

      Yes, because watching a hotel room for three minutes doesn't bring in moviegoers.

      Now, doesn't that depend on who is in the hotel room doing what to whom?

      I can certainly think of some combinations that would put my ass in a movie theater seat.

    29. Re:Not a new trick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought it was...

      Life is like a box of chocolates.. you just keep eating till you get sick...

    30. Re:Not a new trick by tinkerghost · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ideally, no company should ever be allowed to bill a division of itself under any circumstances.

      No, internal billing has a place. It's an ingrained part of project accounting & isn't a problem as such. In most companies that are actually doing it, they charge exactly what it costs. You took 400 man hours of 'Research' time & we paid $30/hour for that time, we're billing you $12K which you can account for in your project budget.

      The abusive companies are saying: You took 400 man hours of 'Research' time & we paid $30/hour for it. Adding in our profit margin of 100%, we're billing you $24K.

      The internal profit making is what needs to be stopped, not the process of internal billing. If Division A is spending time helping Division B, there needs to be some form of accounting in place to show why A lost X number of man hours that quarter, otherwise it just fucks everyone's bonus and job evaluations.

    31. Re:Not a new trick by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      the guy who was actually in Darth Vader's suite never got paid

      Hey, who are you calling a prostitute?

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    32. Re:Not a new trick by dgatwood · · Score: 0

      My point is that it's impossible to police these things because internal division profits and losses are not reported to the IRS or any other outside body. Thus, there's no real way to solve this except by filing a lawsuit every time they use these tactics so long as those contracts can be written at all. (And maybe even then.)

      That said, if you really need to push around artificial money to account for your projects, that screams "lack of leadership" to me. You're supposed to be acting like one company, not like a bunch of piglets each competing to suckle more from your mother's teat. If a company truly feels the need to do such heavy-duty accounting so that people can keep track of what's happening, that's generally a sign that the company is too big, and no amount of accounting can keep a company that size from becoming bloated and inefficient.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    33. Re:Not a new trick by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 2, Informative

      The producers of Forrest Gump used the same math to claim a loss on that one too

      Winston Groom wrote the book "Forrest Gump" upon which the movie was based. As you suggest, he made very little money due to creative Hollywood accounting. When the producers approached him about making a movie off his sequel novel "Gump and Co." Groom apparently refused - Apparently he said something like "Why would you want to make a sequel when you lost so much money on the first movie?"

    34. Re:Not a new trick by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Also: always cut your contract with the umbrella organization.

    35. Re:Not a new trick by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "The burden of proof falls on the person making the claim. One is not under any obligation to prove someone else's claim."

      So where's the proof for that claim?

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    36. Re:Not a new trick by lendude · · Score: 1

      More Fun.

      Prowse was also in 'A Clockwork Orange', the seminal 1971 film, as 'Julian', the bodyguard to subversive writer F. Alexander (played by Patrick Magee). He was chosen for the role due to his physical prowess (he was a past weight lifting champion) - the role required him to lift Magee in a wheelchair and carry him down stairs, as well as look physically intimidating I guess.

      --
      "Get off the cross - we need the wood" - Tori Amos
    37. Re:Not a new trick by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 0

      So, you believe anything anyone tells you? Good. You owe me everything you have, so give everything you have to me.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    38. Re:Not a new trick by budgenator · · Score: 1

      It's only a problem when the division charges a different fee to it's owner than it would to an outside client, and the parent corp doesn't engage in competitive bidding.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    39. Re:Not a new trick by davidbofinger · · Score: 1

      If David Prowse was really in Darth Vader's suite then he probably never got paid because he was killed when the Death Star was destroyed. He must have attached his soul to something as he was dying. Can detached souls sue?

  3. The Terrible Economy Threatens Even the WB by SeriouslyNoClue · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's the people below the poverty line who don't work and aren't productive enough that are to blame for Hollywood's plight. Not the rich accountants and brilliant producers that carefully select only the most qualifying of movies. It is obviously getting to the point where our culturual heritage -- the heritage of Americans -- in film needs to be conserved by the government. Which is why movies like Harry Potter should be able to apply for and be granted a government bailout when they finish in the red. It's obvious that the economy has hit them hard and they need a little help. With the file sharers and ripoff dupes in the world taking away their copyright, this is the only way we can help them out until a solid and sane prosecution framework like ACTA is approved for the whole world.

    My thoughts and prayers are with Hollywood and the families of everyone involved with such quality original films.

    1. Re:The Terrible Economy Threatens Even the WB by hackerman · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I see what you did there

    2. Re:The Terrible Economy Threatens Even the WB by rekees · · Score: 0

      Amen. ASPCA: "The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to the Academy."

    3. Re:The Terrible Economy Threatens Even the WB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly, I could see such a law being passed.

    4. Re:The Terrible Economy Threatens Even the WB by mcgrew · · Score: 1, Troll

      LOL! Did you just register under that username for that comment? Kudos, sir (or madam).

    5. Re:The Terrible Economy Threatens Even the WB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The mark of a good troll is to be just inflammatory or insanely outrageous enough to get a rise out of as many otherwise intelligent people as possible. I think you may have taken your sarcasm slightly too far for success on this one, but good try anyway.

  4. Read Roger Corman's book. by Animats · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Roger Corman had some problems like that with studios back in the 1970s, and he won, too. Read his "How I Made A Hundred Movies in Hollywood and Never Lost a Dime".

    1. Re:Read Roger Corman's book. by InsertWittyNameHere · · Score: 1

      Here's a summary:

      1. Make $100 million dollar movie.
      2. Gross $480 million dollars at the box office.
      3. ???
      4. Epic profit!

  5. Not Hollywood alone by rjejr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't most major league sports teams do this as well? And major corporations in a bid to avoid taxes? And most (US) individuals in a bid to pay less in taxes? I'm not saying it's right or wrong only that it just is and is practically universal.

    1. Re:Not Hollywood alone by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, this trick won't work for tax purposes. The IRS isn't that dumb (and when they are dumb it is never in your favor). The reason they are able to get away with it from a tax perspective is they actually do pay taxes on it.

      What they are doing is setting up a separate corporation for each movie. The corporation is the one that makes contracts with the actors/directors/whoever. Then the studio charges the corporation a (bankrupting, in this case) amount for distributing the movie. Much more than actually distributing the movie cost, but of course the corporation pays it, and ends up making no profit on the movie. The studio still has to pay taxes.

      Now, as an average person, you can try to do that, and set up your own personal corporation so you can deduct 'business expenses,' but the IRS will still make you pay a full amount. The studios also still have to pay the full amount in taxes, just not to other people (unless other people sue).

      Studios will still continue to do this kind of thing, because while on highly profitable movies, juries might not favor them, on less profitable movies it will be easier to get away with. Obviously it is fraud, but I don't know if it is close enough to the legal definition to press legal charges.

      --
      Qxe4
    2. Re:Not Hollywood alone by pavera · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hollywood is the only party (and the music industry) that screws over the people actually producing stuff by pulling this trick. Sure corps do it all the time, but they pay employees first, and generally employee pay is not tied to "net profits" of the company. Same goes for sports teams. Lebron James paycheck is not dependent on the team he plays for making money, its dependent on how well he and his agent negotiate his contract.

      In hollywood and the music industry, not only do they get to dodge taxes with this trick, they also get to dodge paying their employees cause most of the contracts in LA are of a "% of net profits" mold... Thus, not only are they screwing over the government (why again do they have so much sway in DC??!!??) but they screw over regular working people and of course, high paid actors and musicians as well...

    3. Re:Not Hollywood alone by Hatta · · Score: 1

      And all of this is nothing compared to Washington accounting.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:Not Hollywood alone by yabos · · Score: 1

      I know of a guy that operates his commercial construction business around the Toronto area that way. Commercial construction jobs are notorious for screwing around all the contractors so if a job goes bust only the one shell company goes down.

    5. Re:Not Hollywood alone by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      set up your own personal corporation so you can deduct 'business expenses,' but the IRS will still make you pay a full amount. The studios also still have to pay the full amount in taxes, just not to other people

      That of course all depends on if these "corporations" are in different countries, and it can still change your Tax rate. So if you pay yourself a salary from this corporation, then yes you pay income taxes. But if your a stock holder, and instead pay yourself with stock dividends, then you pay the Capital gains rate (20%) instead of income taxes (much higher.) With the Microsoft's of the world their foreign divisions make all the profits, so they aren't taxed in the US (but the cash isn't available to be spent in the US either, so you need to move to that country to retire and take the cash out.)
      the above is not financial advice, just my understanding of the rest of the game.

    6. Re:Not Hollywood alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because if the pay was tied to profits (gross or net), then there would be a lot less people employed, and those who were would be rich beyond dreams...

    7. Re:Not Hollywood alone by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Yup, you can do that, but if you don't pay yourself a normal salary, the IRS will still come after you. If you are a free-lance programmer, and start a corporation for yourself, and don't pay taxes on at least $60k a year or whatever is normal for your industry, the IRS will come after you. If you look like you are playing number tricks to avoid paying, the IRS will come after you.

      You are right about the foreign holdings, but it is worth noting that Obama is trying to get the IRS to go after them, too.

      --
      Qxe4
    8. Re:Not Hollywood alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember reading of one record company spending $250 000 a month on "flowers" which were charged as expenses on the musicians. It came in the form of white powder and was snorted.

    9. Re:Not Hollywood alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "high paid" actors can't be getting screwed out of THAT much. Their stupidly massive mansions aren't buying themselves...

    10. Re:Not Hollywood alone by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Informative

      Lebron James paycheck is not dependent on the team he plays for making money, its dependent on how well he and his agent negotiate his contract.

      That's not exactly true. The players unions in major sports negotiate with the owners of the league's teams to determine the total player compensation. This is the major thing that's keeping the NFL players and owners from reaching a new agreement -- the players want to see what portion of the revenues go to player salary, but the league is refusing to release the revenue figures. In the NBA, the salary structure for rookies, and the max salary for players, is partly a function of league revenues.

      For any industry where individuals make a big difference to the product, the pay of the individuals in in some way related to revenues. Sometimes it not as clear-cut as a % of gross or net... that tends only to be the case where there's a higher level of risk.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    11. Re:Not Hollywood alone by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      What they are doing is setting up a separate corporation for each movie. The corporation is the one that makes contracts with the actors/directors/whoever. Then the studio charges the corporation a (bankrupting, in this case) amount for distributing the movie. Much more than actually distributing the movie cost, but of course the corporation pays it, and ends up making no profit on the movie. The studio still has to pay taxes.

      So what you're saying, then, is that the Hollywood film studios are committing perjury every time they claim to own the copyright of those movies? Seems like the copyright is really held by those shell companies, legally speaking, in which case it would have to be considered an asset of value, and the company must dispose of it in a proper bankruptcy proceeding, then use the money to pay its creditors (the actors and actresses). Otherwise, that's fraud. That said, I haven't read these contracts, so I suppose they might be doing something sneaky there. Interesting thought, though.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    12. Re:Not Hollywood alone by ChefInnocent · · Score: 1

      Dat might work well, until dis guy screws ova the "cobbler". Den he'll be swimmin' wid deez new shoes.

      Hollywood types, they go around with lawyers, but construction guys, some of them have a real temper.

    13. Re:Not Hollywood alone by yabos · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, but his name is Gino and he supposedly has ties to the Italian mob so he's probably ok.

    14. Re:Not Hollywood alone by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "That of course all depends on if these "corporations" are in different countries, and it can still change your Tax rate. So if you pay yourself a salary from this corporation, then yes you pay income taxes. But if your a stock holder, and instead pay yourself with stock dividends, then you pay the Capital gains rate (20%) instead of income taxes (much higher.) With the Microsoft's of the world their foreign divisions make all the profits, so they aren't taxed in the US (but the cash isn't available to be spent in the US either, so you need to move to that country to retire and take the cash out.) the above is not financial advice, just my understanding of the rest of the game."

      Actually, you can get around THAT too.

      Set up a subchapter "S" corp if an individual or small group.

      This way, you pay yourself a salary...and you only have to pay employment taxes on that (SS and medicare). At the EOY, after deductions are made, the remaining corp. profit actually falls through onto your personal taxes, where you pay state and federal taxes...but you save a good deal of money not having to pay SS and medicare on that whole amount.

      For example. Say you bill out $100K for the year.

      You pay yourself a "reasonable" salary of maybe $32K. You pay your SS and Medicare taxes on that $32K (in addition to state and fed taxes).

      And EOY, lets say after writing off mileage, company expenses..etc...you have about $59K in profits. You then pay fed and state taxes on that $59K, BUT...you don't have to pay employment (ss medicare) on that amount. That can save you a decent amount of money.

      Hell, these days, incorporating yourself, doing 1099 and putting up with a CPA and paperwork are about the ONLY ways you can keep your hard earned money from U. Sam....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    15. Re:Not Hollywood alone by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Ah, if only. Hollywood pays most of it's employees regularly too. If you think any other kind of corporation is better, try selling a patent or idea for a product to someone and watch the games they play.

    16. Re:Not Hollywood alone by cayenne8 · · Score: 1, Interesting
      "Yup, you can do that, but if you don't pay yourself a normal salary, the IRS will still come after you. If you are a free-lance programmer, and start a corporation for yourself, and don't pay taxes on at least $60k a year or whatever is normal for your industry, the IRS will come after you. If you look like you are playing number tricks to avoid paying, the IRS will come after you."

      I'd have to say your numbers are a bit high.

      You pay yourself a salary (if sole owner) for RUNNING the company..not the work it contracts out (with you as the worker bee).

      If you're billing out $100K...I've known people for years that only paid themselves salary of about $25K. Now, this was a few years back.

      but today, if you bill out about, say $120K...paying yourself a salary of about $40K should be plenty safe for you (only pay SS and medicare on that portion). The remainder you will still pay fed and state tax on, just not employment tax at EOY after deductions (if you do and S corp).

      Of course...I'm guessing the Obama crew are wanting to close even that little way of keeping your hard earned bread....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    17. Re:Not Hollywood alone by KillShill · · Score: 1

      So the IRS will be coming after Steve Jobs?

      --
      Science : Proprietary , Knowledge : Open Source
    18. Re:Not Hollywood alone by rekoil · · Score: 1

      I remember a similar scam going on in the dot-com bubble years - a company flush with VC money would "invest" in a shell subsidiary, which would then pay the parent a "licensing fee" for its IP. Thus, investment capital gets transformed into "real" income, and the company can claim to be profitable (or at least a lower cash burn rate).

    19. Re:Not Hollywood alone by openfrog · · Score: 0, Troll

      No, this trick won't work for tax purposes. The IRS isn't that dumb (and when they are dumb it is never in your favor). The reason they are able to get away with it from a tax perspective is they actually do pay taxes on it.

      What they are doing is setting up a separate corporation for each movie. (...) The studio still has to pay taxes.

      You will note that they still manage to claim an inordinate amount of expenses. If you look at the table provided in TFA: 53 millions to "finance" the production, over 200M for distribution, etc. But you are right: where they completely screw actors, directors and partners, they only manage to partially screw the taxpayer, because the IRS still has some teeth. But that could go away as well: hear those libertarian ideas about getting rid of the last bits of regulations the government still enforce.

    20. Re:Not Hollywood alone by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      That's a point worth bringing up, but the tax laws around CEO compensation of public companies are so complicated I'm not going to claim to understand what is going on there. There are highly paid consultants who make a living doing nothing but figuring out how to best pay a CEO, because it's so complicated. Twenty-five years ago or so congress passed laws that encouraged public companies to pay the CEO in stock, thinking it would give them more motivation to make the company do better.

      Also, he still does pay taxes: the IRS doesn't mind if you use tricky accounting methods so much, as long as you don't use tricky accounting methods to pay less in taxes.

      --
      Qxe4
    21. Re:Not Hollywood alone by hey! · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sure it's perfectly legal and moral to set up shell corporations. It's what you do with them that matters.

      I do happen to know a little something about corporate accounting. I actually once recommended that a company be split into two captive parts. The reason was that it had highly profitable software half and a very unprofitable hardware sales half. Splitting the company in two had a legitimate purpose: it made it easier to sell the software business by making its value more clear. Eventually it was sold to a company that already had a hardware business and it's co-joined hardware twin simply folded. That was all completely above board.

      In accounting you are constantly making up fictional "expenses", but they are offset by fictional income. You do this in order to make the financial performance of your various business structures more clear. What you CANNOT do is make up expenses to mask changes in owner's equity.

      I know that stuff that looks like this happens all the time, and there are lots of borderline cases where legal corporations are created in order to take advantage of various angles in tax law. Many of those schemes are probably illegal, but are allowed de facto because nobody has the time to unravel them. That's why certain politicians always try to understaff the IRS. It's not to defend Joe Blow, who can't hide any significant income. It's to protect the guy who can play the "blind them with bullshit" game with armies of lawyers and accountants.

      The situation is different for taxes (which are an exaction in which you have no say) and business deals (which are supposed to be negotiated in good faith). When you enter into a profit sharing contract, you can't take a chunk of revenue, move it from your left pocket to your right and call that an "expense". The proper name for that is "fraud". It doesn't matter how formally correct you make the transaction appear. Substance matters in accounting, and if the substance of a transaction is fraudulent, it's fraud.

      In fact, that is the very essence of skillful fraud: to make that which is unconscionable seem superficially correct in every form. You can't pass a counterfeit bill and use "it's such a good copy it is indistinguishable from the real thing." You can't engage in a fraudulent transaction and say, "But all the incorporation papers, purchase orders and invoices are in order."

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    22. Re:Not Hollywood alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two words: IP licensing

      The shell company owns nothing but a license to make a movie. No matter what happens (or doesn't happen) in the course of the movie's production (or lack thereof) the rights will always ultimately revert to the studio.

      The only thing that stays with the shell is the debts.

    23. Re:Not Hollywood alone by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      That's a nice theory. Know anyone who's survived an IRS audit doing that?

      There are a lot of ideas that float around because nobody's been caught doing them yet, but that the IRS would take a very, very dim view of. They might not send you to jail, exactly, but they'll get their cash.

    24. Re:Not Hollywood alone by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      hear those libertarian ideas about getting rid of the last bits of regulations the government still enforce.

      This is such a gross misstatement of libertarianism that I cannot comprehend how you came honestly to acquire such a belief. Are you trolling, lying, or just badly brainwashed? Are you planning to suggest I move to Somalia next?

    25. Re:Not Hollywood alone by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      I know a LOT of contractors that have been doing that for decades...with the blessings of many different CPA's. No audits.

      That's why it is set up that way. Pay yourself a 'reasonable' salary...follow the rules and you are well within the law.

      My advice isn't from what I've read on the internet...but observation of many, many people in actual working practice.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    26. Re:Not Hollywood alone by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      It's somewhat doable. Salaries claimed have to be in line with standards, but most professions have a range of salaries broad enough to claim about 1/2 or a third of the gross billables, particularly if the work was in legal or accounting services. (And yes, I know of cases personally). Hell, the biggest point of forming a single person based S corp is to do this*, and certainly many of them survive audits. This is not about C corps where there is a base corporate tax rate - 'S's are pass through entities.
            Here's one way this can help cut somebody's tax burden. If a person is going to claim employee related expenses on schedule A, they have to meet a 2% of gross income test before any of it counts. Those same expenses, claimed directly by a company, have no threshold - all of them count. There can be other advantages in claiming all the expenses possible for larger vehicles, regular office or office in home expenses, and many other areas. The direct taxes owed to the general fund may be 10% less than otherwise, and as the parent pointed out, you can probably see another 10-20% less from reduced Social Security/Medicare and possibly Unemployment taxes, all without pushing the envelope. (What the parent didn't point out is that his example wasn't an optimal case, as 120K is already above the social security cap and so not all taxed anyway).

      * The second biggest reason is if the person has multiple sources of unrelated income - i.e. you sell Myghtymax Juicers and win prizes in Bass fishing tournaments, and you want it so being sued when a Juicer's lid flies off and puts someone's eye out can't take what you made catching fish.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    27. Re:Not Hollywood alone by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the fill-in. I had always assumed that separating liability and making corp-v-personal accounting (e.g., the deductions you mention) easier and more defensible was why people set up S corps.

    28. Re:Not Hollywood alone by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Really? I thought Libertarianism is about getting rid of all government rules, and if the well funded corporations can buy their way out of a lawsuit, that's the goal. Justice for the rich, and if you aren't rich, then you obviously deserve what you get. It's your own fault for being poor, you should have worked harder. Are you sure that's not the Libertarian dream?

    29. Re:Not Hollywood alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a certain team gave A-Rod 50 000 tickets to sell at $60 a pop because they did not want to lower their bank balance by $3 000 000 would that be taken off the salary total for luxury tax purposes? No.
      MLB has a better understanding of numbers than the IRS, SEC, or Hollywood.
      Or MLB does not have a better understanding of numbers than the IRS, SEC, or Hollywood if you prefer.

    30. Re:Not Hollywood alone by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      I'm really not up on Libertarianism, as I have never been an adherent of that political party. But as for libertarianism, well, get back to me when you grow up and are open-minded enough to consider that your side might be wrong about some things.

    31. Re:Not Hollywood alone by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I might be wrong? What am I wrong about? I know I can be wrong, but when someone asserts I'm wrong and won't even say for what, it makes me think that I'm 100% right, but that I characterized that correctness in a way that offends. That's like a double-win.

    32. Re:Not Hollywood alone by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Ah, troll feeding. Neither of the things you stated is true: libertarians do not believe in anarchy, nor in justice for the rich only. Happy? If you would like to know more, head on over to reason.com; you'll find a reasonably (heh, heh) broad spectrum of libertarian thought. There are a few people over at National Review who trend that way. Same with Slate; there are people who advocate libertarian ideas from the left.

    33. Re:Not Hollywood alone by AK+Marc · · Score: 0, Troll

      I never stated anarchy. I described a government that resolves disputes and not much more. That is what libertarians desire, right? That you state you think it is anarchy is evidently what a libertarian thinks of a libertarian government.

      Also, though not the ideal, I see no way in which a government chartered with dispute resolution as a main goal would be able to operate in a manner that didn't favor those with the most experience in the system. And those rule-aware people would be expensive and sought after, much like the way it works today, but with even more disputes run through the courts because the government would wipe its hands of primary enforcement of regulations and leave that to people who feel wronged to dispute it.

      Oh, and if reason.com is an example of libertarianism, apparently all that means is bitching about stuff the current government is doing. I read through 5 articles to get a quick idea, and it seems to be nothing but opinion pieces on why things are broken or news that's reported elsewhere. But on "it should be this way" comments, there are none, just "it shouldn't be this way" comments. Not constructive, and not related to figuring what people think, just what they don't. I'm sure that with years of reading, I could figure it out, but why bother with an idea that's failed miserably every time it's been tried?

    34. Re:Not Hollywood alone by jrumney · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or try to get share options in a VC funded startup to pay out.

    35. Re:Not Hollywood alone by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Your style of argument would make Ignatius Loyola proud, but frankly I'm not interested in how many angels dance on a pinhead. Have a nice week.

    36. Re:Not Hollywood alone by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So again, your response is "nuh uh" without even a comment. Sounds again like someone that can't object to what I say, just how I say it.

    37. Re:Not Hollywood alone by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Your tenacity is impressive, but I'm just not sure what you're looking for here. Libertarians believe in human freedom, and in limiting the powers of the state to run your life. That's frequently mischaracterized as a desire to dismantle all government regulation, because there are a handful of Randroids out there who really believe that everything can be handled by contract. I can't really state it more simply than that, and since your goal seems to be to prove to yourself that you're right, I have no doubt that you'll succeed.

    38. Re:Not Hollywood alone by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Libertarians believe in human freedom, and in limiting the powers of the state to run your life.

      I'm stating that laissez faire has been tried, for both personal freedom and economics, and it has failed miserably every time. It ends up that the powerful (usually rich) end up with all the power. The government evacuating the struggle for power left a void filled by powerful individuals, who then abused their power. Every time. To claim "small government is good" is fine. But to claim the results of that will be good this time when every previous time they've failed miserably requires proof from your side. My stance is "read history and get back to me." At best, some tribal nations were libertarian, but no "civilized" nation has ever had a libertarian government result in more freedom for the average person.

      Libertarians believe in the impossible, despite overwhelming proof they are wrong. That's not conviction, that's insanity.

      I can't really state it more simply than that, and since your goal seems to be to prove to yourself that you're right, I have no doubt that you'll succeed.

      Your stance is "read some posts on some random website to understand this" which I did and which indicated nothing about what you believe. Since you won't state what you see as a libertarian in anything other than sweeping statements which include could be construed to include the Randroids' positions, how can I evaluate your version of libertarianism?

  6. Forest Gump by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is a very old trick, and I can't understand why people still fall for it.

    Winston Groom had to learn the hard way when his deal involved a percentage of the net profits from Forrest Gump. Unfortunately for Winston, Hollywood accounting always makes sure there isn't any net profits.

    This is why the big actors and producers always ask for a percentage of the gross revenue.

    --
    These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    1. Re:Forest Gump by Shimbo · · Score: 1

      This is why the big actors and producers always ask for a percentage of the gross revenue.

      Hence the saying, "If Yoda is so wise, why didn't he hold out for a percentage of the gross like Obi-Wan?"

    2. Re:Forest Gump by nedlohs · · Score: 3, Informative

      Gross doesn't cut it always either, see Peter Jackson and Lord of the Rings.

    3. Re:Forest Gump by sconeu · · Score: 3, Informative

      Predates Forrest Gump. See Buchwald v. Paramount, regarding "Coming to America".

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    4. Re:Forest Gump by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Cite please, I'm not sure the details on this.

    5. Re:Forest Gump by nedlohs · · Score: 4, Informative

      http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/27/business/media/27movie.html is the really old initial lawsuit article.

      But basically Jackson had a gross cut contract, and claimed that New Line sold some of the rights to things like DVD distribution to other Time Warner companies for lower than market value - which of course reduces their gross (and hence Jackson's cut).

      I think they settled, but I didn't really follow it closely - it's a pretty obvious technique though bound to get you sued...

    6. Re:Forest Gump by Solandri · · Score: 1

      This is a very old trick, and I can't understand why people still fall for it.

      People fall for it because while it may be an old trick, it's a good trick that's not well-known . Usually in this country, we make such tricks illegal. But Hollywood has enough money and political clout to not only bribe our politicians to look the other way, but to get them to pass probably-unconstitutional laws hunting the white whale of piracy.

    7. Re:Forest Gump by Mitreya · · Score: 1
      This is a very old trick, and I can't understand why people still fall for it.

      What I want to know - if this is an old and known trick - where's the IRS? Is Hollywood tougher than Capone? If you essentially fake expenses to report losses instead of profits isn't that the definition of tax fraud?

    8. Re:Forest Gump by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      I believe the way it works is that all the revenue is distributed among the subsidiaries leaving the parent shell company with no profit. I believe it's only tax fraud if the subsidiaries didn't pay the taxes.I don't know since IANATL.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    9. Re:Forest Gump by mea37 · · Score: 1

      It seems this isn't a hard scheme to defeat, if you're in a suitable negotiating position.

      What you want is a contract that says "You must pay me X% of gross; and if you sell rights in this work to someone else, the sales contract must require them to pay me X% of their gross excluding the amount they paid you". Obviously it takes a bit more than that, to make sure that the obligation to pay me is always attached to the rights no matter how often or in what ways they change hands.

      The problem is, just as you have to be a big enough fish to get a cut of gross instead of a cut of net, you'd presumably have to have quite a bit of clout to negotiate such a contract.

    10. Re:Forest Gump by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      I believe the way it works is that all the revenue is distributed among the subsidiaries leaving the parent shell company with no profit. I believe it's only tax fraud if the subsidiaries didn't pay the taxes.I don't know since IANATL.

      I believe it's a bit more involved than that, but essentially yes. The parent company has a shell company that does the production & sub contracts it's other subsidiaries to the shell company to siphon off the revenue. At the end of the day, all of the subsidiaries & the parent company are reporting profits, except for the actual production company.

      So Movie Madness Corp claims $1/2B net profit on 'Bubba Eats a Booger'*, but Movie Production Corp (Wholly owned subsidiary of MMC) shows a loss of $150M. As long as MMC pays taxes on $350M, the IRS doesn't care & MMC stock goes up because they're profitable. Because all the 'base + %net' contracts are signed with MPC, nobody involved in the actual production sees anything but the base rate.

      * - have you seen this years movie selection? Chances are it would be more entertaining.

    11. Re:Forest Gump by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      You also have to have quite a bit of money to be able to hold their feet to the fire in court about honestly reporting all those sub-deals.

    12. Re:Forest Gump by lorg · · Score: 1

      Cause muppets don't get paid?

    13. Re:Forest Gump by catmistake · · Score: 1

      How about basing salary accounting on box office ticket and DVD/download sales? They can't deny they did $350 million when every news outlet reports it. Also, if the film actually tanks, likewise, you make less. Seems it should work something like that... film does well, everyone gets paid, and if it tanks, everyone pays.

    14. Re:Forest Gump by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      This is why these jury awards probably won't amount to much.

      Ok, for the odd high-profit movie hollywood might actually have to (gasp!) pay out what it was supposed to in the first place. Of course, they get to pay for a 2004 debt in 2010 dollars which are inflated, which in itself probably more than pays for their legal fees.

      The way to get them to stop doing this stuff is to assess punitive damages. Cut somebody out of 7%, well, now you're paying them 35%. Cut 5 people out of 7%, well, congratulations, now the film really is a loss - FOR YOU!

      If that started happening, then you'd see accounting practices change fast. You can't force a company by merely forcing them to pay with they should have paid in the first place 2% of the time and 10 years late.

  7. To Hollywood by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stop wasting millions in special effects, stop wasting millions for known actors. Get good actors, a good script and non-crappy decors and you can make money.

    Get out of your California bubble once in a while. See how the rest of the world lives. You are disconnected from reality. Take a vacation from your little fairytale world. Travel outside of the USA and change your mind once in a while.

    1. Re:To Hollywood by Jeng · · Score: 1

      Hey, I want them to continue to make special effect heavy movies, and if I wanted reality I would watch documentaries.

      They are making money hand over fist, they just claim to not make any profits when they are so that they won't have to pay people what they are owed.

      --
      Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
    2. Re:To Hollywood by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1

      That's exactly what every corporation does. The execs get paid first, and then whatever is left can be used to pay the little employees. The government will gladly tax its own people to ensure that the system stays that way.

    3. Re:To Hollywood by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need special effects movies to get away from documentaries. Gattaca is a very good example. It's not low-budget but they didn't spend millions for special effects either. Movies are supposed to be stories about people or events, not "woah did you see that thing blew up" lowest-denominator crap.

    4. Re:To Hollywood by natehoy · · Score: 1

      While I agree that I'd prefer to see movies that are about stories, I don't think that's what movies are about.

      A movie is the result of a venture that is focused on selling asses in seats and residuals like DVD and TV releases. If adding whiz-bang shiny will sell more money's worth of seat space than the effects cost, then the effects worked.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    5. Re:To Hollywood by Tanktalus · · Score: 1

      Hey, look. You're free to watch your artsy-fartsy crap. Me? I'm going to keep watching Mythbusters. Blowing stuff up is AWESOME.

      :-)

  8. "It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by commodore64_love · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ".....and not pay our actors, writers, staff their share of the profit-sharing contract, but if you are dishonest and download a DVD, then you'll get the equivalent of a life sentence in fines! Seems perfectly fair to us." - Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) aka megacorp tyrants

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    1. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I call this the "pull it out of your ass" expense. We have no idea where this number came from, and it's just large enough to wipe-out the profit. How convenient.

      INVESTMENT
      Negative Costs and Advance - $315 billion

      And why is the "interest" placed under expense? I've always thought of interest as income... very very odd accounting these Hollywood types have. "Arrogance and stupidity in the same package - how efficient of you."

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    2. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by M8e · · Score: 1

      And why is the "interest" placed under expense? I've always thought of interest as income...

      Ones mans income is another ones... outcome. You get interest on your saved money but you pay interest on your mortgage loan.

    3. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 1

      Under FASB 666, you're allowed to amortize profits over the expected life of the universe under an account called Not Paying Investors and Actors Carryforwards.

    4. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and generally hollywood studios have to borrow money to make a movie, not lend it out....

    5. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by iluvcapra · · Score: 4, Informative

      Without debating the merits of pirating copyright material, I'd point out that the people who sign on the dotted line for "net" deals know exactly what they're getting, which is nothing -- writers, actors, directors and "staff" (of which I guess I'm one) sign their contracts with the advice of a lawyer and a manager, and all of these people know exactly what "defined net" is, and how it's defined is completely clear in the contract. We should respect contracts, right? I can assure you whoever is complaining about their deal in TFA isn't J.K. Rowling, she's getting gross points.

      The only revenue sharing deals that ever pay off are "first-dollar gross" or "dollar breakeven" deals, where the money directly from the box office is split. Net deals have always been a fantasy -- it was true when Art Buckwald sued Paramount over to Coming to America in 1990 and it's still true now. In this particular case of Harry Potter, what WB appears to have done is borrowed the money to make Order of the Phoenix at a high rate of interest, and is paying off its note so slowly that the negative cost of the film keeps going up relative to the revenue. What isn't mentioned is that Warner Bros. probably borrowed the money from AOL Time-Warner, it's parent, in the first place. :)

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    6. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by bunratty · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I buy that argument. I installed a splitter to watch my neighbor's cable TV, 'cause their friends bully my kid. Seems perfectly fair to me!

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    7. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by zehaeva · · Score: 1

      Off topic but I love the B5 quote. ~Z

    8. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      And why is the "interest" placed under expense?

      Warner Bros. nominally borrowed money to pay for the production of the film, thus they pay interest on the notes they took out to fund the production, and those interest payments are counted against the total negative cost of the production. The borrowed the money at a high rate of interest, probably from an organization that isn't at arms'-length, like her parent, AOL Time Warner. That's how they keep the film unprofitable for tax purposes, but profits still can move to the parent under a more favorable tax regime. People should use the most favorable tax regime possible for their work, yes?

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    9. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by ground.zero.612 · · Score: 2

      Hey Mr. Commodore, I agree with your sarcasm 100%. As I also appreciate your point of view; I am wondering what your answer to the following questions would be:

      At which point is it socially acceptable to take up arms and execute said tyrants? Or perhaps even just to take up arms and mobilize citizens with the intent to do so?

      I'm desperately trying to find a legitimate, reasonable, logical answer to this question. Mainly because I see no reason to defend the right to bear arms unless we actually exercise it when we need to.

      I own many firearms. I feel my leaders are tyrants. I want desperately to remove them from power, and to simultaneously put the fear of death into the hearts of other would be tyrants. Honestly, I'm just scared to be the only person with the testicular fortitude to actually bear arms against these people I personally consider tyrants.

      --
      "Be prepared, son. That's my motto. Be prepared." --Joe Hallenbeck
    10. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      In reality, no it is not correct. But, just because they do something wrong, you are not granted a license to do something wrong to them. Two wrongs do not make a right.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    11. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Banks view your savings account as a liability, and your mortgage as an asset.

    12. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      Off topic but I love the B5 quote. ~Z

      I'm guessing it's because JMS has been pretty outspoken about what Hollywood Accounting has done to B5.

    13. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      At which point is it socially acceptable to take up arms and execute said tyrants? Or perhaps even just to take up arms and mobilize citizens with the intent to do so?

      I know you didn't ask me but Tom Baugh has a lot of helpful information on just this subject floating around. I particularly recommend the "A Nation without a Country" series. (part 2) (part 3) (part 4) (part 5) (part 6)

    14. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      . Two wrongs do not make a right.

      but 3 lefts do

    15. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      And why is the "interest" placed under expense? I've always thought of interest as income...

      Ah, so you count interest you pay on a loan as income? You're ready to be a Hollywood accountant.
       
      More seriously, whether interest is an income or an expense depends on which side of the transaction you're on. And, as my accountant wife occasionally reminds me, reading a financial statement or a balance sheet is every bit as specialized a skill are reading a wiring diagram or a subroutine. You have to know what you're looking at and how to read the language. Just because it looks like a trick to untrained eyes doesn't make it one. (Which isn't to say that Hollywood isn't pulling fast ones, just that what looks like magic to the untrained eye looks routine to the professional.)

    16. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by zehaeva · · Score: 1

      Well you know half a Billion in DVD sales and he still owes 80 Million, such is the hazards trying to tell a great story.

      It really makes you wonder why anyone really tries anymore.

      ~Z

    17. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So if I get someone to sign a contract that allows me to kill them whenever I want, that should be allowed?

      Yes, we should respect contract law. But if the contract is OBVIOUSLY unfair, there should be no legal protections for it.

    18. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by maxume · · Score: 1

      It isn't necessarily wrong to break the law.

      I realize that your whole mindset is an authoritarian orgy and it is hard to think in such terms, but there you go.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    19. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      I would guess that most people do it for the chance to get more money in later years. The success of B5 has helped him sell more scripts, especially in the past few years, and he certainly deserves the money and success. Of course, that still doesn't excuse the cheating bastards that can turn a billion dollars into zero profit with just a pencil and paper.

    20. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by hitmark · · Score: 1

      in other words, he would not be at a loss even if i downloaded the series rather then trying to track down a boxed set.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    21. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by hitmark · · Score: 1

      wiring diagrams and subroutines at least work on logic, rather then obfuscation.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    22. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Wow, "narrow definition of net profit" = "murder". False equivalency much?

      If you read the Wikipedia article, you'll discover that in Buchwald the court actually decided that the definition of "net" in the contract was unconscionable, which is what you're talking about; however, when it became clear that a ruling on the matter would completely eviscerate the payment structure of Hollywood, and potentially suck a lot of money away from financiers (you know, the people who actually pay to make the things?), everyone and their mother got Paramount to offer Buchwald a deal in exchange for the court to not make a ruling on the fairness of the "defined net" language.

      And later, in Batfilm Productions v. Warner Bros. the court ruled that the customary Hollywood definition of "defined net" was conscionable, and the issue hasn't really come up since then.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    23. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      In this particular case of Harry Potter, what WB appears to have done is borrowed the money to make Order of the Phoenix at a high rate of interest, and is paying off its note so slowly that the negative cost of the film keeps going up relative to the revenue. What isn't mentioned is that Warner Bros. probably borrowed the money from AOL Time-Warner, it's parent, in the first place. :)

      Does the state they're incorporated in not have usury laws for commercial loans?

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    24. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So don't sign unfair contracts.

      Yes, my life is slow at times because I have to read EULAs. It's worth the Freedom.

    25. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by hitmark · · Score: 1

      looks like a case of shooting birds with AA cannons...

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    26. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Remember that the next time someone breaks the law and hurts you or someone you care about, assuming you care about anyone.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    27. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by maxume · · Score: 1

      I probably won't need to, I mean, I'm not denying that there is often a correspondence between the laws I live under and the choices I see as moral, I'm simply pointing out that there is not a complete alignment.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    28. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like Peter Jackson's case? In quite a few cases a percentage of gross profit is inserted in agreement (as Peter Jackson had), but due to transactions between various corporate entities that border on accounting fraud, even that is significantly reduced.

    29. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      No, that's completely ridiculous. Do some google on unenforceable contracts if you want to know why.

      I have to agree with GP. Reasonable people read contracts before they sign them. Reasonable people clarify terms that are unclear or poorly defined. Reasonable people research companies they are entering into agreements with. People signing contracts in Hollywood know what it means when they agree to net instead of gross. It certainly sucks that this is how the industry treats its workers, but this is just how contracts work. They serve to define and enforce agreements between parties. Letting one party change the contract just because they later think its unfair is ridiculous.

    30. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by kramerd · · Score: 1

      So if I get someone to sign a contract that allows me to kill them whenever I want, that should be allowed?

      Yes, we should respect contract law. But if the contract is OBVIOUSLY unfair, there should be no legal protections for it.

      Technically, someone could give you the power to end their life through power of attorney in the event that they are no longer able to make a competent decision about whether to seek medical life support, which some morons would call murder, but this valid is slightly off-topic to your straw man argument.

      Contract law already makes any contract void if it requires illegal action for compliance. You can't sign a contract to get someone else to rob your neighbor's house for you.

      Fairness is not a factor in the legality of a contract. Duress, incompetence, legality, and ability to perform, but not fairness.

    31. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "writers, actors, directors and "staff" (of which I guess I'm one) sign their contracts with the advice of a lawyer and a manager, and all of these people know exactly what "defined net" is, and how it's defined is completely clear in the contract. We should respect contracts, right?"

      Um, yeah, of course. But this is the equivalent of someone driving a car with lease terms like:
      1) "You will pay a penalty if mileage on the odometer is above a 120000km after 5 years" (reasonable)
      and
      2) "You agree that the dealer can change the mileage on the odometer at any time"

      In other words, it's a contract deal where one of the parties has a comprehensive ability to screw you over if they so choose. Yeah, I suppose you're stupid if you sign such a deal, but that doesn't mean it's honest or that it should be legal to make such a deal.

    32. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>At which point is it socially acceptable to take up arms and execute said tyrants?

      No idea because I've not reached that point. So far the government's only crime against me is ridiculously high taxes (about 25,000 a year) which is annoying but tolerable. However if the government started doing some of the things it has discussed, like spying on my internet connection and arresting me because I downloaded a naked photo of a teenager (ohnoes), then I'd probably be in the frame of mind to take-up arms and reclaim freedom.

      Another example would be if I were Jamie Thomas. Rather than pay a million dollar fine (equivalent to a life sentence), I'd say "fuck it" and exact revenge against the RIAA CEO by putting a bullet through his head. And I'd shoot the next one too. Of course that case is not yet completed, so I'd still be patiently awaiting the outcome.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    33. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Two wrongs do not make a right.

      Yes it does. It's why we commit the "wrong" of depriving thieves of freedom. It's why we commit the "wrong" of killing mass murderers. Two wrongs (the criminal steals/kills and we deprive them of liberty or life) will make a right. We call it justice. So: I don't consider stealing from thieves a crime. It never belonged to them in the first place. It was never their property.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    34. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Remember that the next time someone breaks the law and hurts you

      And what about when I break the law by lighting-up this marijuana cigarette? There's nobody harmed except myself, so the poster was correct: "It isn't necessarily wrong to break the law." I am doing nothing wrong here.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    35. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      Does the state they're incorporated in not have usury laws for commercial loans?

      Probably not. Most US banks/CC companies are incorporated in Delaware explicitly because they don't have a usury law. Because it was found to be a restriction on interstate trade, CC's & banks can safely ignore usury laws in other states. I can't see why a company that's setting up it's own loan agency would ignore this particular loophole when signing the Incorporation papers.

    36. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      And what about when I break the law by lighting-up this marijuana cigarette ...
        I am doing nothing wrong here.

      You are doing something wrong. You are breaking the law. You do not have a right nor does it make it legal or acceptable to break a law merely because you do not like the law.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    37. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Those are not wrongs. Those are legally defined punishment for breaking the laws. The laws which were established by society to protect the members of society from those who believe they are above the rest of society and have a right to take or kill with impunity.

      You seem to see punishment for breaking the law as wrong. Would you feel the same way if it was yourself or your loved-ones who were the victims?

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    38. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Warner Bros. probably borrowed the money from AOL Time-Warner, it's parent, in the first place. :)

      From whom did you borrow that apostrophe?

    39. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by iluvcapra · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In other words, it's a contract deal where one of the parties has a comprehensive ability to screw you over if they so choose. Yeah, I suppose you're stupid if you sign such a deal, but that doesn't mean it's honest or that it should be legal to make such a deal.

      I'd remind you that writers do get hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars to write screenplays up front, they aren't dependent on the kicker to put food on the table or live in their house in Laurel Canyon. The screwing-over happens uniformly to all players and in a fully-informed way; it only seems like screwing-over to outsiders.

      Besides, why is a writer entitled to a percentage of a film's receipts anyways? Good writing doesn't sell tickets; star's names and franchise recognition are the main things that draw people to theaters. When was the last time you decided to go see a movie because Kurt Wimmer or David Goyer wrote it, instead of a movie written by David Hayter or Tony Gilroy? It really doesn't make that much of a difference, in terms of how much the movie makes. (Which is something of a sad state of affairs, but it's how the market works.)

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    40. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Just because you don't read the language doesn't mean it isn't based on logic.

    41. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by ground.zero.612 · · Score: 1

      Amen, brother.

      --
      "Be prepared, son. That's my motto. Be prepared." --Joe Hallenbeck
    42. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by psycho12345 · · Score: 1

      So when I convince 51% of the people that it is illegal for you to live, you will comply?

    43. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Go learn basic civics and get back to me.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    44. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Chowderbags · · Score: 1

      People who signed "net" deals are entitled to the real actual net profits. Hiding those profits by filtering them through intermediaries and paying the company with it's own money to do services provided by itself is tantamount to fraud. This is exactly why treating subsidiaries and shell companies as separate entities from their "parent" corporations is so fucked up. If I tried to borrow money from myself then tell the IRS that I lost money because I couldn't pay myself back, I'd be slapped down in court so fast your head would spin. When Hollywood does it, they're praised for being great businessmen.

    45. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      People who signed "net" deals are entitled to the real actual net profits

      People who sign deals are entitled to what is described on the contract, and not some slashdotter's vague and uninformed concept of equity.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    46. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Dhalka226 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'd point out that the people who sign on the dotted line for "net" deals know exactly what they're getting, which is nothing -- writers, actors, directors and "staff" (of which I guess I'm one) sign their contracts with the advice of a lawyer and a manager, and all of these people know exactly what "defined net" is, and how it's defined is completely clear in the contract.

      So what you're saying is that multiple parties willingly enter into an agreement, the following being the possible outcomes:

      1. Studio best case -- nobody sues you and you get to pay the nothing you knew you were going to pay.
      2. Talent best case -- you sue the studio and win more than the nothing you knew you were going to get, putting up large sums of money for large risks in the legal system to get paid.
      3. Studio second-best case -- you get sued but ultimately win and pay the nothing you knew you were going to pay, minus legal fees.
      4. Incompetence case -- the accountants can't cook the books properly and somebody accidentally gets paid more than nothing. The studios will still likely do their best not to pay if such a case arose, so it's really just a prelude to case #2 or #3.

      That's really your argument? What's the point? It's a risk for the studios since they lose at least some money in three of the four possibilities compared to just leaving the damn clause out entirely, and for the talent they know their best-case scenario is both rare and expensive to pursue so including it is hardly an incentive. Such clauses literally benefit nobody (reliably) if we're operating under the assumption that both parties know what's really going to happen.

      Even if the contracts are poured over by lawyers and clear as day, all you know is what the contract says. The studios are not violating the letter of their contracts; the whole point of the term "Hollywood accounting" is that they're technically doing exactly what they're legally bound to do. Rather, they violate the spirit and act in bad faith by setting up subsidiary corporations and what-have-you in order to make gobs of money but avoid actually having to share it with anybody they agreed to share it with. Naturally they'll have an idea of how they're doing it in advance when they offer the contract, but I'm sure half the scheming of "how can we get out of this?" happens long after the paperwork is signed, and there are some veeeeerry clever lawyers and accountants out there who would love even a fraction of the money they could save their bosses.

      The more likely explanation is the simplest: The studios are hoping to scam people into feeling like they will be compensated more than they really will if things happen to become wildly successful. Some people won't buy it and either find a new project or get their profit shares negotiated in a way not so subject to being gamed (assuming they have such negotiating muscle to begin with), many will mistakenly assume that they're not going to get screwed for making the studio fistfuls of money, most won't even merit such considerations.

      You're right: By and large, the J.K. Rowlings of the world aren't the ones being screwed by this. They have the muscle, either by their money, their popularity, or their control over whether or not a movie even gets made (ie, rights holders) to get clauses that are virtually game-proof. The people who get screwed are the small guys who are working their asses off and working in good faith with the expectation that what makes the show money makes them all money. That's frankly what studios are counting on. They want you to work as though you are more invested than you are.

    47. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Talent best case -- you sue the studio and win more than the nothing you knew you were going to get, putting up large sums of money for large risks in the legal system to get paid.

      I might have been too broad in asserting that all net deals never make money. Some do, but almost never on films that cost $300 million to make and market -- they use a net kicker because occasionally it does pay off, but it's really nothing serious on huge films. Net kickers are most likely to pay on indie/genre films that breakout and get mass audience. Think more like Paranormal Activity. And that's the sort of project we really want to encourage, right? The studios give writers and actors a net kicker because that's considered the LEAST they can do, and actors and writers won't accept less; they're just as complicit in the arrangement as anyone else.

      I don't find anybody's argument here that a defined net deal is some sort of fraud, used to sucker in unwitting dupes, at all convincing. Anyone who has had any modicum of interest in the film industry knows it, and people that get into the film industry are all huge movie buffs who have been reading Variety since they were ten. Hell, I was a 13-year-old growing up in Minnesota when I first learned about "Hollywood Net."

      PS. I am a small guy working his ass off and I get straight salary, deferred salary with priority over gross participants, or gross. Those are my terms, and if producers don't want to pay them I don't work for them. Works for me.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    48. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by ground.zero.612 · · Score: 1

      Wonko thank you immensely for introducing me to Tom Baugh!!!

      --
      "Be prepared, son. That's my motto. Be prepared." --Joe Hallenbeck
    49. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what about when I break the law by lighting-up this marijuana cigarette ... I am doing nothing wrong here.

      You are doing something wrong. You are breaking the law. You do not have a right nor does it make it legal or acceptable to break a law merely because you do not like the law.

      Ahh, the fact that something is law makes it right? Like slavery?

    50. Re:"It's okay for us to be dishonest..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those are not wrongs. Those are legally defined punishment for breaking the laws. The laws which were established by society to protect the members of society from those who believe they are above the rest of society and have a right to take or kill with impunity.

      You seem to see punishment for breaking the law as wrong. Would you feel the same way if it was yourself or your loved-ones who were the victims?

      So essentially depriving someone of their freedom or life is not wrong as long as it's right. You seem to define right as being whatever the law says. That happens to be a very wrong-headed way to view right and wrong.

  9. Feh. by Pojut · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I absolutely adore the world of film, but holy fuck do I hate Hollywood.

    1. Re:Feh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Love your country, hate your government.
      Embrace faith, despise religion.

      I'm sensing a pattern...

    2. Re:Feh. by mdielmann · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Love your country, hate your government.
      Embrace faith, despise religion.

      I'm sensing a pattern...

      The general pattern is: Ideals are great, but people keep fucking up the implementation.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    3. Re:Feh. by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Where, oh where, are the mod points when I need them? Well said. I'd mod you up if I could.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    4. Re:Feh. by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      I absolutely adore the world of film, but holy fuck do I hate Hollywood.

      And, just think. These are the greedy bastards that are writing the copyright laws that have been enacted into the DMCA and ACTA.

      They've got the deck stacked in their favor, and they've managed to convince lawmakers to at least pretend to accept their math on how much money they lost. So, now the graft that is the Hollywood financing system has been entrenched into law and international treaties.

      We are pretty much all beholden to the music and movie industries, and law has enshrined their profits -- but, since they can never make profits, they'll just squeeze harder.

      That guy here on Slashdot with the sig about the boxes in democracy? I think it's time to move onto the ammo box, the first ones have failed.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  10. MPAA's Piracy Statistics by Darkness404 · · Score: 5, Funny

    You know, if they can make such a wildly successful film as Harry Potter appear to lose money, then suddenly all of the MPAA's statistics about piracy make sense!

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    1. Re:MPAA's Piracy Statistics by blair1q · · Score: 1

      As does their logic about images of people making love being bad for kids and images of violence being good for them.

    2. Re:MPAA's Piracy Statistics by nizo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually it would be awesome if it was legal to download copies of movies that didn't make money anyway; maybe that would solve this problem?

    3. Re:MPAA's Piracy Statistics by natehoy · · Score: 1

      Are you proposing that piracy penalties be based on a percentage of the same "gross" that Hollywierd publishes for the purposes of paying their sponsors, actors, and other support personnel?

      Got my vote. I love a good petard-hoisting.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    4. Re:MPAA's Piracy Statistics by blair1q · · Score: 1

      It would be more awesome if someone started a campaign to inform the public that Hollywood loses money every time someone buys a ticket.

      We could start a grass-roots movement to get a law passed to stop this pernicious damage to the economy. The law would make it a crime to possess a ticket even for personal use.

      Enforcement couldn't be easier. Ushers are already in uniforms, just give them badges and coupons for low monthly rates on 911 calls through their mobile carriers...

    5. Re:MPAA's Piracy Statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, they'd "make" exactly $1 or something.

    6. Re:MPAA's Piracy Statistics by seven+of+five · · Score: 1

      Producer 1: Ahoy there, matey! Those waters yonder be pirate-infested. Beware lest ye be plundered.
      Producer 2: What Ho! What Ho!
      Producer 3: Yarr! There be nothings I can't stand worse than pirates! Scurvy dogs they be!

    7. Re:MPAA's Piracy Statistics by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      I steal movies from these net loss companies to try and push them back to 0.

    8. Re:MPAA's Piracy Statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only if the problem was, "How do we make it so movies will always make exactly $5?" ... monkey points won't be worth anything, even though the movie made a profit.

    9. Re:MPAA's Piracy Statistics by scrib · · Score: 1

      Since the "Distribution Fee" is greater than the "loss" suffered by Harry Potter, and there is no expense to the company for unlicensed distribution, I think this is a fantastic idea.

      The company loses far less money when the consumer helps with distribution!

      --
      Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
    10. Re:MPAA's Piracy Statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How long do you wait to determine if something made money? First week of box office? A month? 6 months after the DVD release?
      It doesn't really make any difference anyway. Pirates clearly have no regard for whether what they're doing is legal or not. If they can download it illegally today, or legally if they only wait a year, a month, or even a day, do you really think they'd choose to wait? Remember that pirates belong to the Me Generation, who demand everything for themselves not tomorrow, but NOW.

    11. Re:MPAA's Piracy Statistics by skila · · Score: 1

      Claiming a loss on movies might put a dent in their outrageous damage claims: When the MPAA successfully sue someone for damages, they may have to award the defendant.

  11. That's gross! by Itninja · · Score: 1

    This magical accounting is why more and more bankable stars are demanding x% of the gross instead if just wanting part of the profits.

    --
    I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    1. Re:That's gross! by geekoid · · Score: 1

      yeah...except in Hollywood, gross is defined as money AFTER production and distribution.

      :

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:That's gross! by drkim · · Score: 1

      ...however, you can get a deal for points of gross BO before production and distribution comes out.

      You need to have major juice to cut this deal, unfortunately.

  12. Babylon 5 by Y-Crate · · Score: 4, Informative
    JMS Posted:

    The show, all in, cost about $110 million to make. Each year of its original run, we know it showed a profit because they TOLD us so. And in one case, they actually showed us the figures. It's now been on the air worldwide for ten years. There's been merchandise, syndication, cable, books, you name it. The DVDs grossed roughly half a BILLION dollars (and that was just after they put out S5, without all of the S5 sales in). So what does my last profit statement say? We're $80 million in the red. Basically, by the terms of my contract, if a set on a WB movie burns down in Botswana, they can charge it against B5's profits.

    1. Re:Babylon 5 by AnonymousClown · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Even if they didn't tell them so, the fact that they kept the show in production is enough reason to believe they're making money on it.

      The other thing is, if they're losing money and reporting profits to shareholders, then how in the World are their books matching? Wouldn't that be considered fraud or at least a violation of SEC rules? What about GAAP and FASB rules? Or are there exceptions for Hollywood and Government?

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    2. Re:Babylon 5 by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm surprised the people like JMS, Ronald Moore, Ira Behr, and others don't rally together and sue these companies. Or maybe complain to the IRS, and let the IRS open an audit.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    3. Re:Babylon 5 by kidgenius · · Score: 4, Informative

      See, the head company makes money, but your contract is with the smaller company that was created. So in this case, you work for Babylon 5 Incorporated. Babylon 5 Inc lost money, tons of it, but they aren't publicly traded or owned. This smaller company is wholly owned by Warner, Fox, etc., who charge the Babylon 5 LLC tons of money for the show. Things like loans, distribution fees, advertising, etc. Warner then gets that money and reports that on their books to their shareholders, which are open, and everything works out quite nicely.

    4. Re:Babylon 5 by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You have to be careful about biting the hand that feeds you, even if it repeatedly punches you in the face while doing so.

    5. Re:Babylon 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The books do match.

      Imagine Media Co starts 3 projects: A, B and C. All are given 100 million and complete on budget. Project A has contractors which are compensated according to net revenue. Project B has contractors which are compensated according to gross revenue. Project C has entirely fixed costs.

      In order to avoid any payment on project A, the company can simply assign losses from Project C to Project A until Project A shows a loss. GAAP cannot prevent this.

      In order to avoid any payment on project B, more elaborate measures must be taken but it can be done(directing revenues to Project D or giving Project B to a different entity).

    6. Re:Babylon 5 by cliffiecee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I like his last sentence best:

      But then again, I knew that was the situation going in...I saw the
      writing on the wall (and the contract) from the git-go. I didn't do
      this to build an empire, I wanted to tell this story...and that's worth
      more than anything else.

      And this is why there's so much dreck in the movies/TV. Who the hell wants to give away their best creative ideas to a bunch of corporate executives, and never recieve anything in return except for the chance to "tell a story"?

      Kudos to JMS for doing so; I feel I should mail him some money directly, rather than buy the DVDs, however.

    7. Re:Babylon 5 by noc007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That post from JMS really bummed me out when I first read it since I bought all five seasons and all of the "made for TV movies" on DVD. Not a penny of my purchases went to anyone that poured their heart and soul into B5. Hollywood Accounting is one of the big reasons I don't have much sympathy for the studios crying that they're loosing trillions of dollars to piracy. If they can fudge the numbers so no one can get any residuals, they can fudge the numbers just as much to claim that rampant piracy is going to force them to close up shop and justify their lobbying for more ridiculous laws in their favor.

    8. Re:Babylon 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But then again, I knew that was the situation going in...I saw the writing on the wall (and the contract) from the git-go. I didn't do this to build an empire, I wanted to tell this story...and that's worth more than anything else.

      Doesn't mean I can't tweak 'em about it, though.

    9. Re:Babylon 5 by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 1

      The movie studios don't use the same figures with the IRS: They'd get nailed with tax-evasion and embezzlement if they did.

      They reserve this figures for those who can't afford better lawyers than they can.

      --
      'Sensible' is a curse word.
    10. Re:Babylon 5 by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Not a penny of my purchases went to anyone that poured their heart and soul into B5.

      Yeah, that's why JMS is starving in the street and posting from a laptop salvaged from the trash. (IOW, horseshit.)

    11. Re:Babylon 5 by russotto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      See, the head company makes money, but your contract is with the smaller company that was created. So in this case, you work for Babylon 5 Incorporated. Babylon 5 Inc lost money, tons of it, but they aren't publicly traded or owned. This smaller company is wholly owned by Warner, Fox, etc., who charge the Babylon 5 LLC tons of money for the show. Things like loans, distribution fees, advertising, etc. Warner then gets that money and reports that on their books to their shareholders, which are open, and everything works out quite nicely.

      Sounds like another old system -- you were paid for your work, but you had to lease all the tools and your food and housing from the company. Your pay always ended up being a bit lower than those costs, but no matter, the company would keep loaning you the tools and housing... as long as you kept working.

    12. Re:Babylon 5 by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's why JMS is starving in the street and posting from a laptop salvaged from the trash. (IOW, horseshit.)

      Yeah, writing the scripts for hundreds of other shows and movies like Changeling and Ninja Assassin haven't made him a dime, its all about those DVD residuals he's lying about.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    13. Re:Babylon 5 by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Maybe Google or someone should make a site that makes it easier to tip artists, programmers, whoever directly (of course the problem is money laundering etc, but I'm sure someone can figure it out).

      After all since Hollywood's distribution (and other) costs are so high, perhaps we could help save them money by downloading the movies and then paying directly to who we think should be paid ;).

      So many movies supposedly lose money - Return of the Jedi, Harry Potter and so on. I suppose Avatar and the Titanic lost money too?

      If Hollywood can't even make money from such movies perhaps we should speed their demise and let others who are more efficient take over... :).

      --
    14. Re:Babylon 5 by noc007 · · Score: 1

      I understand that he was paid a certain amount during production of the series, but it's generally accepted that there would be residuals paid out after the fact when the contract says there will be. If one were to take a job that was getting paid X and produce Y, there is no expectation of receiving anything more than X. However, if one were to take a job that paid X up front to produce Y and receive Z percentage on profits, there is an expectation to receive Z if it is successful; instead one is regularly informed that profits are being made hand over fist, but because of creative math none of it will be paid out.

      As a consumer, when one pays for performance art at the retail level, one generally is under the naive assumption that some of the proceeds will go towards the creativity of that art.

      Do you actually buy music and movies with the full acknowledgment and acceptance that the people who wrote it and performed it will not receive anything from your purchase?

    15. Re:Babylon 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you haven't figured out that "loosing" is wrong by now, you're probably incapable of learning anything at all.

    16. Re:Babylon 5 by Chowderbags · · Score: 1

      I work in a company that does government contracts. If we tried anything like that, people would be fired/go to jail and the company would get sued.

    17. Re:Babylon 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or some of the armies in the Napoleontic era. If you took the shilling, that made you indebted to the king, it symbolised your duty to fight and put your life on the line. But that same shilling evaporated quickly, because you had to buy much of your own equipment (often from the army) and quickly found your old shoes weren't really up to heavy marching, and so on and so forth.

  13. I wonder if these loses are by future+assassin · · Score: 1

    also part of the lost sales they claim from movie pirating making them look exaggerated. Oh look me lost millions because of pirates.

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
  14. Piracy cuts the losses, right? by Above · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Seems like if they loose money distributing these films the normal way, then piracy saves them money on distribution costs, and might actually make the films profitable!

    1. Re:Piracy cuts the losses, right? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Seems like if they loose money distributing these films the normal way...

      If you loose your money you're foolish. If you lose your money you're unlucky.

    2. Re:Piracy cuts the losses, right? by jd2112 · · Score: 1

      They loose money on each movie but make up for it on vomume.

      --
      Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
  15. Paging Washington by cdrudge · · Score: 5, Funny

    Obviously Hollywood needs a government bail out. First the pirates were cutting into sales, and with all these extremely successful movies that have lost millions, Congress must do something fast!

    1. Re:Paging Washington by sjames · · Score: 1

      I say we should bail them out. We should send the very best forensic accountants the FBI and IRS can muster to relieve them of the burden of maintaining their books.

  16. Wow! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's like the Boston strangler became an accountant.

    Kudos if you know why that's relevant.

    1. Re:Wow! by Dyolf+Knip · · Score: 1

      Hey, can someone find out where Jack Valenti is buried so I can go piss on his grave?

      --
      Dyolf Knip
    2. Re:Wow! by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Arlington National Cemetery. You might find security a bit irksome.

    3. Re:Wow! by drkim · · Score: 1

      Don't!
      Did you even look at the "Harry Potter" accounting??!

      Under Sec 21.6.51.2a: "Urea stain cleaning re. Valenti memorial...............$130,045.21"

  17. Can you sue fornegligence? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

    Seems that Hollywood has a property that should be hugely successful. They are using the investments that other people made to make it so.

    It seems that the producers are deliberately trying to not make money from these investments. I'm pretty certain that if any other business executive decided to run a business in such a way as to minimise shareholder value, they would be in serious legal trouble.

    1. Re:Can you sue fornegligence? by compro01 · · Score: 1

      No, they're making plenty of money, they're just doing a good job of hiding it via accounting tricks so they don't have to pay actors, directors, etc. who are often paid a percentage of profits.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    2. Re:Can you sue fornegligence? by Deadstick · · Score: 1
      It seems that the producers are deliberately trying to not make money from these investments.

      No. They aren't trying to not make money: they're trying to "not make money". BIG difference.

      rj

    3. Re:Can you sue fornegligence? by mcgrew · · Score: 1
    4. Re:Can you sue fornegligence? by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

      IN GermaNY!

      Holy fuck do I love that movie.

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    5. Re:Can you sue fornegligence? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Yes, but since they're entitled to an agreed share, there has to be an argument that the actors and directors are shareholders. If any other company's majority shareholder paid company money to a company that they wholly own in this way, for services that other companies could clearly provide more cheaply, they wouldn't just be sued. They'd be in prison for fraud.

  18. So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe the pirates aren't the real enemy there...

  19. Let's not jump to conclusions by TheSync · · Score: 3, Informative

    The document shown probably concerns net calculations for a deal with a writer. A Deadline comment said:

    These are VERY high loads, but they are TYPICAL loads for writers, who very rarely receive "cash break" or "studio breakeven" type deals. To repeat, nothing has changed under the sun: the "net" deal articulated above is fairly standard for writers. Typically writers are compensated up-front with a kicker if a film is absurdly profitable. Writers rarely, if ever, get gross or "studio breakeven" or "cash breakeven" -- i.e., a share of the revenue from the first dollar of revenue, or a share of the profits from the first dollar of profits. When the studio cut the deal above with the writer, I can't imagine they told the writer: "Once we breakeven, you get paid! We all win!" They probably said to his agent/lawyer: "We'll give you the standard "net" kicker", which is exactly what he got.

    I.e. the writer got paid on a fixed basis regardless of movie performance, with the "net kicker" that no one really expects to see (except maybe on "Avatar").

    Note the document has nothing to do with taxes. That is a very different story.

    1. Re:Let's not jump to conclusions by sweatyboatman · · Score: 4, Funny

      Avatar had writers?

      --
      It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
  20. Not 'the producers of'... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Disney are just the current rights holder of Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?, which was not invented in America. Celador originally owned the rights to it (and it ran first on British television).

    So it's not a mere 'partner' who is being bilked. The deal to buy the production company included a revenue split for Celador, and Disney has been caught trying to pretend it doesn't have to pay.

  21. Four-oh-four... Oooo baby... by ebbomega · · Score: 2, Informative

    Canna get to your urrrrrrrrl

    So, um, someone wanna post a mirror/text?

    --
    Karma: Non-Heinous
    1. Re:Four-oh-four... Oooo baby... by devjoe · · Score: 1

      Actually, it now appears the whole site http://www.techdirt.com/ is slashdotted.

  22. like the 1970s by cinnamon+colbert · · Score: 0, Redundant

    The probably forgotten, but at the time well known comedian art buchwald had to sue hollywood for his royalties,wich were not % of gross, but % of net, and as i remember it, it was the same story - accounting that turned huge profits into losss

    1. Re:like the 1970s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And why hasn't it been fixed in 50 fucking years? This is fraud on a large scale.

    2. Re:like the 1970s by sconeu · · Score: 1
      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    3. Re:like the 1970s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well, I guess I get the "/. poster to lazy to spend 5 seconds checking wiki award.."

  23. Not Just Hollywood by Bryansix · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The CEO of the company I worked for used this trick once. He was trying to get all the executives to take a temporary pay cut for one month. In order to do this he mentioned that he took no salary for the last 3 months. While this was technically true, the more overarching truth was more sinister. He had in fact shielded himself and his income from any downturn in the business by setting up a second corporation where he was the only owner, employee etc. This was a marketing company. Now the first company only got leads from Direct Mail. Guess what the second company did? Direct Mail Marketinig. So while he took no salary from the first company, he continued to get paid very well from the second company for something the first could not live without.

    1. Re:Not Just Hollywood by noc007 · · Score: 2, Informative

      This reminds me of when I worked for Hitachi Power Tools (HPT). Beyond the confusing owner ship of the company ( X% is owned by Hitachi Koki which is Y% owned by Hitachi Group, etc.) and the five year rotation of executives fresh from Japan (once they get a handle on the US market, they're sent elsewhere and are replaced by someone with no knowledge of the US market), they had a very interesting accounting practice:

      Every month the head finance/accounting guy spent a few days locked in his office to produce reports of all sales, expenses, and inventory numbers for that month, last three months, last six months, and last 12 months for the parent company in Japan. In Japan they'd review these reports and would determine the quantity and price of each product we'd buy from them. This insured that HPT in North America would not be profitable, so if any income tax were to be paid, it would go to the Japanese government. On top of that, they wouldn't give any raises due to being in the red.

    2. Re:Not Just Hollywood by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Something similar happened in a company I worked for too. Everyone took a 10% pay deferral to keep the company afloat and to stave off layoffs. The CEO also said he was forgoing his whole salary until the deferrals were no longer needed. What the CEO never told anyone except the finance person was that he was taking 6 figure bonuses each quarter.... Just forgoing one bonus would have meant none of us would've needed to take a pay deferral. Jackass.

    3. Re:Not Just Hollywood by pablodiazgutierrez · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I know people who work for consulting companies on precisely these type of internal, cross-border deals. Their task is to ensure that their internal transactions are "arm's length", or at market value. If you know something about it, the IRS will surely welcome a tip.

    4. Re:Not Just Hollywood by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't that qualify as a conflict of interest?

  24. Re:So this means by falzer · · Score: 2, Funny

    So this means I should pirate more movies, since my pirating isn't hurting their wallet as much as they claimed it was yes?

    When pirating, you never took into consideration whether or not it would hurt anyone's wallet except your own, so continue pirating at your regular rate. If you ever get caught (unlikely) you can tell them falzer on Slashdot said it was OK.

  25. Slashdotted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2010/jul/08/harry-potter-order-of-the-phoenix

  26. I forget, why do I feel guilty about pirating? by jollyreaper · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Oh, right. I'm taking money out of the hands of the starving artists. You know, the ones who aren't getting any money because their points were off the net and golly gee, the movie didn't make any money.

    I love Disney strip-mining the world's fairy tales for ideas and then suing people for intellectual property infringements.

    Fuck all the fucking fuckers.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    1. Re:I forget, why do I feel guilty about pirating? by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Because it is still immoral and illegal. Two wrongs do not make a right, remember?

      My best guess is you have no morals or ethics and live a bit like Lindsay Lohan "If I don't get caught or punished, then it isn't wrong".You are no better than the weasels in Hollywood.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    2. Re:I forget, why do I feel guilty about pirating? by geekoid · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Just an FYI: You to could use the public domain material that Disney used, as can anyone. You can't make the characters look like Disney character, or copy the dialog or music.

      You know, public domain is available to everyone including people who work at corporations.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:I forget, why do I feel guilty about pirating? by noc007 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Any time Mikey Mouse is going to become Public Domain, Disney heavily lobbys to extend copyrighted works. It's sad that I'll probably live to see this happen again. I just wonder how long they're going to try to string it out.

    4. Re:I forget, why do I feel guilty about pirating? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The point is that Disney has fought to keep their works, built ON the public domain, from going back to it.

      They profited from it, and they should contribute back, rather than buy off senators to extend copyright and trademark law to where it's way past beneficial for the whole of society.

    5. Re:I forget, why do I feel guilty about pirating? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it is still immoral and illegal.

      In your opinion it's immoral. In some cases it might be illegal.

      Two wrongs do not make a right, remember?

      In some cases two wrongs do make a right.

      My best guess is you have no morals or ethics and live a bit like Lindsay Lohan "If I don't get caught or punished, then it isn't wrong".

      Your guess isn't very good.

      You are no better than the weasels in Hollywood.

      Again, in your opinion.

      Personally, I think the weasels in Hollywood are way, way, way worse.

      And then, even lower, comes you.

      If the above looks like an ad hominem attack, it's because it is. It still stands.

    6. Re:I forget, why do I feel guilty about pirating? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      It's sad that I'll probably live to see this happen again.

      We can certainly find a way to prevent that...

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  27. You think the IRS would be interested by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You'd think that the IRS would be interested in loss of revenue from corporate profits, or at least the State of California. With all the stuff they go after these days, this seems ripe for "transparency"

  28. Hollywood is different by swb · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Tax avoidance through expense maximization and income minimization is one thing; there are rules and if you break them you get penalized, up to an including prison.

    In this case, though, the rules (GAAP) are much more flexible and in some cases they can write their own rules (contract language, business procedures) and the punishment at worst might be a fraud conviction but generally the punishment is getting sued and that has a high barrier to success, let alone initiation.

    It also helps that the "product" of much of Hollywood doesn't have the kind of supply-and-product chain that manufacturing or other industry has. It has a lot of soft costs and a lot of human costs that can silently and flexibly siphon money from successful projects (consulting fees, personal services (AKA "hookers and blow"), promotional costs, legal fees).

    1. Re:Hollywood is different by Alsee · · Score: 2, Funny

      Tax avoidance through expense maximization and income minimization

      Yeah, you would not believe the amount of taxes I avoid paying through income minimization.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    2. Re:Hollywood is different by DaFallus · · Score: 1

      The IRS doesn't follow GAAP.

      --
      No one cares what your captcha was

      Houston TX, USA
  29. ORIGINAL ARTICLE HERE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    HAHAHA Techdirty is now being dirty, they REMOVED the news. Google follows by not offering the cached page, EVEN THO IT EXISTS!

    Check the article HERE: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8V1pgRKUcLsJ:www.techdirt.com/articles/20100708/02510310122.shtml

    1. Re:ORIGINAL ARTICLE HERE by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 1

      It's still on the front page, the article itself just can't be reached.

  30. No it doesn't by geekoid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In the movie industry, gross profits is customarily defined as the profits remaining after production and distribution expenses are subtracted from revenues.

    The more you know.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:No it doesn't by sconeu · · Score: 1

      Then what are "Net" profits?

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    2. Re:No it doesn't by Adriax · · Score: 3, Funny

      Tack a negative sign to the box office take in.

      --
      I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
    3. Re:No it doesn't by biryokumaru · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Net" profits are the losses they post on the net to show how much piracy is damaging them.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    4. Re:No it doesn't by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      this is the issue - those production and distribution expenses are being deducted before they exist.

    5. Re:No it doesn't by geekoid · · Score: 2, Informative

      the money left after subtracting everything else.

      remember, every paid actor showing up to market the show, sighingings general appearance limos, water, gift baskets, ad space and many, many other expenses.

      Why people in hollywood keep falling for that is beyond me. They have to know they aren't getting crap. It must be part of the game. The step you must take before getting millions up front.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:No it doesn't by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Are you saying they don't think they will be distribution the movie?
      Also, many distributions contracts and methods are decided AFTER a movie is made.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    7. Re:No it doesn't by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Get in Line!

      It's after the investors see their profit.

    8. Re:No it doesn't by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      Normally, all of that, plus the "production and distribution expenses", falls under the category of "subtracted from the gross to get the net".

    9. Re:No it doesn't by laddiebuck · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's great. So first they redefine the English words "theft" and "piracy" to mean "copyright infringement", then "gross" to mean "net". It's brilliant!

    10. Re:No it doesn't by masmullin · · Score: 1

      this is hollywoodland, nothing is as it seems.

    11. Re:No it doesn't by masmullin · · Score: 1

      newspeak is double plus good.

    12. Re:No it doesn't by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In other words, as soon as everyone realized that a percentage of the net was for suckers and started insisting on a percentage of the gross, Hollywood re-defined 'gross' to be the same thing as 'net' and continued screwing people.

    13. Re:No it doesn't by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The distribution costs (like so many others put in there by the studios) are a fix number. 33% of gross (real gross) goes to distribution. It doesn't matter how much is spent, they write out a check for 33% and send it to a subsidiary of theirs. And that doesn't cover advertising or anything else, just printing and mailing prints, and possibly international contract costs, but most of the big studios have world wide contracts in place for everything, so it goes back to just moving prints around, and somehow that's correlated with the income of the movie, and not the number of concurrent theaters showing it or any sane measure of costs of distribution.

      Also, many distributions contracts and methods are decided AFTER a movie is made.

      But the costs for these are essentially fixed, and the only times they vary is when they want to screw someone with gross out of more money, so they change them to harm those that actually do the work. And this is from the industry that complains loudest when the "creators" aren't paid. And they are the ones working hardest to defraud those creators with direct theft.

    14. Re:No it doesn't by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Pointing out that newspeak is newspeak is double plus bad. Assume the party submission position and await for miniLove to bring you delicious cake.

  31. All they're doing is investing by guruevi · · Score: 2, Informative

    And it's pretty much standard too - just invest as much as you can in your future projects and you won't have to pay taxes or anything on it. I used to work at a company (.com startup) that did the same thing. Every year they invested a rough $2 million (net profit) in the development team (4 people) - eventually the development team became their own company so they just shifted funds back and forth (here you go 2 mil. to build this application, here you go 2 mil. for rent) - the developers kept the same desks, computers etc. I believe they off-shored a healthy profit as well.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  32. Purpose of Accountants by fermion · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Accountants are there to minimize profit that is shown externally. External profits are always bad. They require taxes and other payouts to external entities. Just as an example because they have the highest gross profits I know about, MS earned about 14 million the latest quarter, of which 11 million was gross profit. About two million of that was spent on research and 4 million on admin expenses and marketing. This is about 33% of gross profits on marketing and admin. As a percent of gross profit this is not excessive, but as percent of revenue it is highly excessive. Other companies might spend 10-20% of revenue. It is arguable that MS maximizes admin expenses to minimize profit. They put perks in minimize taxes and make them look less profitable. They do the same with research money that leads nowhere, i.e. the kin.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    1. Re:Purpose of Accountants by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      That's why accountants fight the Fair Tax so fiercely. If it were enacted they'd all need to go find honest work.

    2. Re:Purpose of Accountants by radish · · Score: 1

      That's Billion, not Million :)

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

    3. Re:Purpose of Accountants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The mere fact that your numbers are in the millions and not the billions lets me know rather quickly you haven't actually researched this. I'm guessing you're trying to lump Microsoft in with this behavior with no proof because you dislike Microsoft plain and simple.

      For reference, MSFT's last quarterly as reported (http://www.microsoft.com/msft/earnings/fy10/earn_rel_q3_10.mspx) was 14.5 billion revenue on 4 billion of net profit. So even if you typo-ed the B to an M, it still doesn't match up with what you wrote above. Also given this article was all about net profit sharing I think the fact that MSFTs accounting shows such a large net profit also semi invalidates your claim that they are using similar techniques.

    4. Re:Purpose of Accountants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The number match except for order of magnitude. I tend to look at gross profits, since that tends to be a more real number than net. Net does tend to be minimize. The point is that MS really spends almost nothing to produce a product, just like the movie industry. They have relatively huge expenses in management and promotion, just like MS, and even so show a healthy profit overall, except when they don't want to. For movies it is useful to compartmentalize into cost centers, and apply all charges into cost centers, so that individuals lose money while the company generally does not. Except by doing this one has no incentive to economize, which is why all they studios are on the verge of bankruptcy. We really don't know who in MS is getting screwed through this procedure, as MS does not break out the financials.

  33. Star Trek interview by KDN · · Score: 4, Funny

    Years ago I read an interview with one of the cast members of the original Star Trek. He said that the most creative writers were the finance guys who claimed that in 30 years of reruns that Star Trek has never made a profit. (I think the interview was in the early 90's) Unfortunately I do not recall who that was.

    1. Re:Star Trek interview by catmistake · · Score: 1

      I have a feeling you're probably thinking of Gilligan's Island. I don't know for sure, but I expect Roddenberry wouldn't put up with that, nor allow anyone to be "left behind," so to speak. You'll notice all the old faces in the movies, even the fired drug addicts. The Star Trek people were nuts, even the accountants I bet, were honest. At least until he died, and by then Nimoy and Shatner were pretty powerful, regarding the movies. I'm speculating, of course.

  34. Re:So this means by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 0, Troll

    No, unless you have no ethics or morals.

    In other words, it is still wrong and if you do it you are exactly like those weasels you claim to hate and whom you steal from.

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  35. Re:So this means by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When pirating, you never took into consideration whether or not it would hurt anyone's wallet except your own

    when I pirate, I do consider other peoples wallets. Since it in no way impacts them,I'll continue to do so for the reasons I do.

  36. Cheating as a principle by mseeger · · Score: 1

    To an external observer it seems, Hollywood has declared cheating the universal principle: actors cheat their wives, wives cheat gravity with upper body parts, businesspartners cheat each other and everyone cheats with his/her taxes....

    I only noticed, nobody managed to cheat death yet, but think they will some day :-).

    CU, Martin

    1. Re:Cheating as a principle by Digital+Vomit · · Score: 1

      I only noticed, nobody managed to cheat death yet

      Two words: Walt Disney.

      --
      Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
    2. Re:Cheating as a principle by Hatta · · Score: 1

      I only noticed, nobody managed to cheat death yet, but think they will some day :-).

      Abe Vigoda seems to be doing pretty well at it. If he ever does actually die, no one's going to believe it.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:Cheating as a principle by MurphyZero · · Score: 1

      And since the viewers all understand this, viewers understand that pirating is expected. In fact, Hollywood DEMANDS it. IF you don't, you're not Hollywood.

      --
      Our founding fathers removed the guys in charge. Be American. Vote incumbents out.
  37. revenue vs. profit by Lord+Ender · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Always ask for a percentage of revenue. It is much harder to lie about revenue than about profit.

    --
    A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    1. Re:revenue vs. profit by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If they drive the subsidiary into bankruptcy and give their own debt priority they can still screw you ... so ask for a percentage of the net, to be paid by the studio.

    2. Re:revenue vs. profit by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 1

      Oops, meant revenue.

    3. Re:revenue vs. profit by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Always ask for a percentage of revenue. It is much harder to lie about revenue than about profit.

      Not really. While it might seem revenue is easier to track, it can also be manipulated so that one entity gets very little while another makes a killing. It all depends on how you have to share it (and pay taxes on it). Sure, at the end of the day you get X dollars and paid out Y. X-Y is the profit (or loss). The skill is in allocating X and Y so that you key as much of X as possible.

      Or, as my accounting prof once said:

      A good accountant will tell you 2+2 is 4. A great accountant will ask you "what do you want it to be?"

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  38. Because they come up with even newer tricks by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    So let's say you get a contract that specifies you get paid gross percentage. You get 1% of revenues, not profits. Hard to fudge that, right? Well they make it tricky and do some shuffling so that they then sell the movie to one of their sibling companies. Company X produced the movie, they sell the rights to Company Y for a low amount of money. You are paid your cut of the sale, but it is small. Company Y then pays you nothing because the contract was with Company X, even though they are all under the same conglomerate.

    Hollywood is very good at this kind of shit and just keeps doing it. There is never any real effort to stop them because they buy off politicians. California is thoroughly bought and paid for, and they donate plenty to congress.

    Why do you think congress is so happy to push their anti-piracy agenda? After all, there are plenty of other companies that make WAY more than all of Hollywood combined for the US. Well, because Hollywood bribes really, really well, that's why.

    Really, anyone who works with Hollywood should never ask for percentages, but always do a "pay or play" up front, meaning you get a certain amount of money for the work, and you get it no matter if they decide to use what you do or not.

    1. Re:Because they come up with even newer tricks by hitmark · · Score: 1

      i would say all corporations do this to one degree or other thanks to their ability to spawn and kill offspring at will.

      consider microsoft in europe. Thanks to some pan-european tax laws, they assign all their sales and such to microsoft ireland, where the tax rate is the most favorable. This no matter what european nation the sale was actually happening.

      or how phifer was to big to fail recently, and so cut a deal with the fed where a recently created sub-company would take the legal fallout of some known bad meds. This so that the parent company, and all its products, where not blocked from US market.

      and while all this is going on, the shareholders (or should we call it the finance aristocracy?) take dividend after dividend while being isolated from the legal liabilities of the corporations.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    2. Re:Because they come up with even newer tricks by TheLink · · Score: 1

      They'll just use someone else instead.

      Plenty of people lining up to be used...

      --
    3. Re:Because they come up with even newer tricks by RobertM1968 · · Score: 1

      It's worse than that. If you look at the things that eat their profits away, it is things like distribution and such. Meaning, piracy helps them. They would lose more money if they distributed more copies, since the distribution charges seem to exceed the profit margin.

      Hope someone points that out to Congress or the courts to shoot down the MPAA.

  39. Slashdotted? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is techdirt.com slashdotted so hard that they lost all their database content? I only get "No stories found." even on the main page...

    CAPTCHA: "durable". Well, maybe not ;)

  40. Planet Money on NPR by jdev · · Score: 2, Informative

    NPR's Planet Money covered this before too. Gone in 60 Seconds grossed $240 million at the box office, but somehow "lost" $212 million. Their accounting is about as realistic as their movies.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/05/the_friday_podcast_angelina_sh.html

  41. Good old Hollywood. by MaWeiTao · · Score: 1

    Are actors getting screwed out of money by these companies? When these stories come up it seems like it's always writers, directors or the original owners of the property who get screwed. I'm guessing actors and film crews either know how to work the system or they've got unions protecting them. And I'm guessing big name actors hold some influence over the studios, given their ability to draw in viewers, so it's in their best interested not to screw with them.

    Either way, I'm guessing there are so many people dying to get into the business that for anyone who's principled and prudent there are 10 suckers waiting in line right behind them. I'm also certain that Hollywood has enough lobbyists and close ties with some politicians to ensure that they can get away with quite a lot of things.

    1. Re:Good old Hollywood. by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      Are actors getting screwed out of money by these companies?

      Depends, usually big name actors get a theoretical cut of net, a few have enough weight to swing gross. 95% of the leading actors get pay to play & all of the fillers get standard wage.

      So yes, the ones who are big enough to swing it are getting screwed, but the vast majority of them are just being paid to show up & don't expect any residuals.

    2. Re:Good old Hollywood. by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Are actors getting screwed out of money by these companies? When these stories come up it seems like it's always writers, directors or the original owners of the property who get screwed. I'm guessing actors and film crews either know how to work the system or they've got unions protecting them. And I'm guessing big name actors hold some influence over the studios, given their ability to draw in viewers, so it's in their best interested not to screw with them.

      Certainly. The big name actors that can draw a crowd are the money machine - so they will get a big payout because they will bring in the box and other sales that keep the cash flowing. Hollywood will then allocate that cash as they see fit; but they need the money machine up front to keep it flowing. Hence, those that can do that have a lot of clout in negotiations since the studios need them. Everyone else is replaceable and hence get take it or leave it deals.

      Either way, I'm guessing there are so many people dying to get into the business that for anyone who's principled and prudent there are 10 suckers waiting in line right behind them. I'm also certain that Hollywood has enough lobbyists and close ties with some politicians to ensure that they can get away with quite a lot of things.

      Or,as the saying goes: "Never try to charge for something others will give away for free."

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  42. duty of care? by mysidia · · Score: 1

    It seems if you make an agreement, to perform services or provide material in exchange for the profit.. You and the production company expect there to be profits, and you expect those profits to be preserved so you can be paid, or you do not have a deal.

    If you do not have a deal, then the distributor's actions are copyright infringement. And maybe if they ignore their obligations implicit or otherwise, the contract could be thrown out by the court.

    And the company you contracted with has a responsibility to take reasonable efforts to maximize the profits.

    If you are a company taking reasonable efforts to make sure there is a profit, it is not reasonable for you to pay a large fee for a service, without making sure the agreements and business relationships you conduct will likely allow you to have a profit buying that service.

    It is also not reasonable to pay a distributor a large fee for a service, when there is a much lesser market rate for that service, or that service is excessive and not likely to produce a profit.

  43. Re:So this means by Myopic · · Score: 1

    Close. Really, you should pirate more movies because why? cause fuck 'em, that's why.

  44. Does that really evade taxes? by JTsyo · · Score: 1

    Doesn't the company that now got a deal higher than market value have to pay taxes on the income? I'm sure there's some tricks they use, they sure as hell aren't paying more taxes than they need to.

  45. Good podcast on this topic from NPR's Planet Money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/05/the_friday_podcast_angelina_sh.html

  46. Box Office Futures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The banks are trying to set up a futures market for movies, so that you could buy into the new $MOVIE sequel. Naturally, Hollywood is vehemently opposed to this. If these movies became publicly traded you'd better believe there would have to be some transparency, and that's what Hollywood fears.

  47. income statement was "pirated" as well by HollyMolly-1122 · · Score: 0

    That's why they get sued. That's why they don't like pirates. If there wouldn't be pirates, nobody ever would notice who is stealing in first place.

  48. really should know better by DaveGod · · Score: 1

    Films are usually produced via a special vehicle, a company created specifically for the purpose of that movie.

    The studio parent company still owns the producer-subsidiary, so they have lots of options. For example pay over a massive interest rate on the financing provided, a "management fee" to move the profits. That's just the expense side, it's even easier to simply licence the product to the parent company at their chosen rate, so all the profit margin is shifted to the studio. This approach will also reduce payments due to people paying a % of gross.

    Beautifully, you can still get the tax hit at the producer company by declaring the transactions at arms-length (market) value rather than what was actually paid over, and yes the tax is deducted from net profit. So the tax man gets something approaching the real figures (well, no doubt there is other tax-avoidance) but that's not what the contracts are based on. Or rather, that's not what people seem to keep basing their contracts on even though they really should know better. Seriously, Peter Jackson either doesn't bother with lawyers and accountants or they're ludicrously incompetent not to see this coming. I'm not saying he deserves to get ripped off or anything, but there is a reason it's called due diligence.

    Never sign up to a % of net profits unless you control the company. Directorship plus majority voting power is what you want - particularly check any variations to voting rights in respect of issuing more shares, varying voting rights and appointing/removing directors.

    Sure, if the contract is very well worded to ensure fiddles are excluded from the calculation it can work, but then you're just giving yourself the hassle of making sure. To be fair the courts can "see through" the transactions and base awards using fair value, but you're at the mercy of obtaining proof and court agreeing to essentially reinterpret contract. Courts are big fans of the freedom to contract.

    On this kind of scale, if you really must go with profit-share contracts, at a minimum you should be ensuring contracts give complete right of access to an auditor of your appointment. This guy you employ from the beginning, not after the fact, ideally teamed up with other profit-participants to share costs.

    But just go for % of gross takings based on fair-value or "to ultimate consumers" instead. It will still take some working-out but is much easier to do and prove than using net profit. This of course means the project is much riskier for the studio since you get paid regardless of whether a real profit is made. It would be much fairer for everyone if pay was calculated as a share of fair profits. But studios have proven they can't be trusted and aint karma a bitch.

  49. We always knew the twisted ways ... by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    We always knew the twisted ways of hollywood to get tax breaks...this is just another way also of promoting that piracy really hurts the industry, sort of like stopping james cameron from getting his 5th bentley and such...

  50. Obligatory Freakazoid Quote by QJimbo · · Score: 1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbtqW62Ty0s#t=8m40s

    Always ask for a piece of the gross, not the net; the net is fantasy!

    (funnily enough Freakazoid was produced by WB!)

  51. Taxes by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

    It should be noted that these dodges do not avoid any income taxes as the profits are simply shifted to the studio. It also should be noted that the studios have been doing this since before WWII. Anyone who accepts a "share of the profits" deal is at best ill-advised.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  52. The numbers, they don't add up! by kc8jhs · · Score: 1

    While I think the studios are so greedy that we need to make up a new word for greed, as it doesn't really cut it anymore, I do have to point out from the Harry Potter article...

    I don't see where they got the $938 million number from, it appears to be from a later press release, or some such, as the numbers from the Total Defined Gross on the balance sheet only seem to indicate $612.6 million cumulative revenue. It's entirely possible that an additional $325.8 million in gross revenue could have put the film into the black, as long the additional expenses didn't exceed around $309.8 million.

    The article seems somewhat disingenuous at best.

  53. After the fact billing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most of it comes from the problem that studio and some other cost can be determined long after the film has been out.
    You used the sound stage then if you movie makes millions then the sound stage charges extra $ for you bill.

    Hint: always as for percentage of the Gross revenue.

  54. Perfect movie for this theme by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 5, Funny

    Guy: It was a producer, wasn't it?

    Forrest Gump: A producer?

    Guy: That signed you up and fucked you.

    Forrest Gump: Oh, yes sir. Fucked me right in the buttocks. They said it was a million dollar contract, but the studio must keep that money 'cause I still haven't seen a nickel of that million dollars.

    1. Re:Perfect movie for this theme by systemeng · · Score: 1

      More like a plot from the movie _The Producers_.

  55. Someone please mod this to infinity. by copponex · · Score: 1

    It's one of those in-jokes that will cause you to blend ennui with joy at the thought of your existence at this particular moment in time...

  56. Hollywood? by DarkOx · · Score: 1

    I don't think this is Hollywood accounting so much as pretty common accounting. Business setup "independant" corporations all the time to executie projects. Its a stupid practice you really should not be able to market services to a subsidiary that you have whole ownership of and book it as transaction between entities; it really should just be sub accounts.

    --
    Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
  57. Hollywood's free pass on fraud by lena_10326 · · Score: 1

    Creative--yet fraudulent--financial or tax accounting are federal crimes punishable by jail time (ala Enron, Bernie Madoff, Michael Milken, Kenneth Lay, Jim Bakker, John Gotti, Al Capone). I don't understand why Hollywood gets a free pass, particularly when the corporate shell games are so obvious.

    --
    Camping on quad since 1996.
  58. Why is Hollywood allowed to get away with this? by Inominate · · Score: 1

    Hollywood has been getting away with this crap for so long that it's seen as normal. When any other big business does even a small fraction of this sort of creative accounting, they get jumped on by every lawmaker and regulator who can dream up a way to punish them. Yet Hollywood somehow is an exception and the response is always along the lines of "Well it's Hollywood everyone should expect this." With the Hollywood accounting, much of what goes on seems to be well beyond contract disputes, moving on to straight up fraud.

    This exemption from accounting fraud that Hollywood enjoys needs to end.

    1. Re:Why is Hollywood allowed to get away with this? by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > When any other big business does even a small fraction of this sort of
      > creative accounting, they get jumped on by every lawmaker and regulator who
      > can dream up a way to punish them.

      What you are missing is that this scheme does not deprive the government of any revenue, nor does it impact a large enough number of individuals to be of political significance. Thus the "lawmakers" don't care (nor should they: it's none of their business).

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    2. Re:Why is Hollywood allowed to get away with this? by AK+Marc · · Score: 0, Troll

      Why is fraud not their business?

    3. Re:Why is Hollywood allowed to get away with this? by patSPLAT · · Score: 1

      It's basically the equivalent of your boss taking credit for your work, and using the generated revenue to hire his cronies. Lame but not illegal.

  59. Gone With The Wind by Nyckname · · Score: 1

    I hear it's going to break even any time now.

    1. Re:Gone With The Wind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That wind has been about to break for a looooong time and, consequently, we've all held our collective breath.

  60. Once a Thief, Always... by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 5, Informative

    Once a thief, always a thief. Remember that Hollywood itself was created to escape Thomas Edison's patent enforcers. In California the land was cheap (at that time), the sun was usually shining (free lighting), and they were a very long way away from the east coast and Edison.

    Win, win, win!

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  61. But Hollywood cares! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just read any pro-DRM argument - they really, really want to give content creators the money they deserve!

  62. Because it is *Les* Gross*man* profits by WheresMyDingo · · Score: 1

    "Playah...."

  63. Re:So this means by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Copyright infringement is illegal, but it may or may not be wrong. If he pirates a movie that he would never buy, or like a lot of people pirate it then buy it when he sees he's not getting ripped off buying it, what he's doing is still illegal, but it isn't wrong.

    Adultery is legal in Illinois, but it's wrong. Smoking pot is illegal, but it isn't wrong. Don't confuse legal and illegal with right and wrong. There are a lot of legal ways to steal, but they're still wrong.

  64. Re:Babylon 5 - WTF JMS by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    WTF JMS? You never seemed like the kind of guy to take this lying down. Heck, you nuked San Diego just because once upon a time there you'd gotten so embarrassed and tongue-tied in your Creative Writing class at SDSU that the lovely E.C. had to finally rescue you. Where's that fight-back spirit now? When does Hollywood get their own nuke?

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  65. Isn't this what agents and lawyers are for? by JSBiff · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure I understand how anyone ever ends up getting screwed by this? I mean, if this is known accounting practice, wouldn't every agent and lawyer in L.A. be saavy to this nonsense and work up contracts in such a way that they guarantee that they get paid?

    What I really wonder, though, is does all this creative accounting deprive state/feds of tax revenue? I'd be rather upset if I, as a working person, have to pay my share of taxes, but rich movie studios could use creative accounting to report fraudulent losses and get out of paying their fair share.

    1. Re:Isn't this what agents and lawyers are for? by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > What I really wonder, though, is does all this creative accounting deprive
      > state/feds of tax revenue?

      No. The profits are transferred to the owning corporation which pays taxes on them. It may even result in a slight increase in taxes paid as the scheme may interfere with some possible tax avoidance schemes (legal ones).

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  66. Oil companies will do this next by mpfife · · Score: 1

    After all the other oil companies see the racking over the coals that BP is going to get - YOU BETTER BET that they'll start doing this exact same thing with their risky drilling platforms. Start a seperate company which you 'buy' the oil from in exchange for the amount of money needed for their bare operating costs. Then, if the thing blows up or leaks, you leave the little shell company to pay it all and you walk away with the profits. I'm honestly shocked they aren't doing this now.

  67. Im very tired... by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

    The world is literally full of dishonest scum sucking pigs, and the two places with the highest concentration of them are L.A. and Washington DC.

    --
    That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
  68. Re:So this means by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

    And, who made you the arbiter of right and wrong? Why do you believe that because you do not like the law, you have a right to break the law?

    If you do not like the law, work to change the law. Breaking the law is almost always wrong. By doing so, you are saying that you are above the rest of society and the law.

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  69. Why doesn't the taxman step in by ProfBooty · · Score: 1

    I'm surprised the government has never gotten involved in this. If some of these movies are truly profitiable in the $100 million plus range, thats a lot of of corporate income tax to be taken by the government.

    --
    Bring back the old version of slashdot.
    1. Re:Why doesn't the taxman step in by masmullin · · Score: 1

      Knowing that the MPAA give millions in political contributions you are surprised that the government does what they want?

      Your country (and mine for that matter) have long ago been bought and sold. The sooner you realize that you DO NOT live in a democracy the better your life will be.

    2. Re:Why doesn't the taxman step in by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Your country (and mine for that matter) have long ago been bought and sold. The sooner you realize that you DO NOT live in a democracy the better your life will be.

      I disagree. We do live in a democracy. Unfortunately, we are not voters; only corporations are. And even more unfortunately, you don't vote with ballots, but with dollars. We have a representative democracy where those with the money are very well-represented.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Why doesn't the taxman step in by masmullin · · Score: 1

      What you define is not democracy, it's called plutocracy.

  70. How to make friends and influence people. by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 1

    "Gross profit" != "Gross box-office revenue."

    Loosely speaking, Gross profit = Sales revenue minus Cost-of-goods-sold.
    Net Profit = (Revenue + all-other-income) minus (COGS + all-other-expenses)

    But that's only for the company you have a contract with, nothing to do with box-office. Call them Shonky Films. Shonky is a subsidiary of Film Embezzlement Corp. FEC will set up an "advertising" subsidiary, a "production" subsidiary, "distribution", "merchandise", etc. You don't have a contract with any of these.

    The "advertising" subsidiary might contract out the actual promotion to an actual marketing company, but it will charge Shonky Films orders of magnitude more. Likewise, Shonky will sell merchandising rights to the "merchandising" subsidiary for vastly less than it's worth. The "merchandising" sub will sign the actual individual deals with toy makers, fast-food giants, etc, for the true commercial value.

    And so on. The net effect is that Shonky Films' revenue is artificially lowered, its costs are artificially raised. The actual profits from the films are shifted to subsidiaries owned by FEC, being shared between FEC's shareholders and cocaine blowjobs for the execs.

    First people said, "Make sure you get a written contract or they won't pay you!" Later, "Make sure you get a % of the profits!" Then they said, "Make sure you get a % of the profits AND merchandising!" Finally they said, "Make sure that's GROSS profit!" And you still don't fucking get paid.

    (Sigh. I know there's a lame Niemöller rip-off lurking in there somewhere. Just don't.)

    So now what can people do? They're being cheated on gross profit. I see two options, 1. make sure your contract has a pass-it-on clause. You get % gross profits from Shonky Films plus from every single contractor it signs with, and every single contractor they sign with, and so on...

    Or 2. Have a buy-back clause. You have the right to buy the film (and-all-rights-and-privileges-thereof-free-of-all-encumbrances) for 5 times the "gross" figure they use to calculate your percentage-of-gross...

    $62,000 was 7.5 of the Gross????
    That means the trilogy only took in $826,000?

    ...so the family-trust would be able to buy the trilogy outright for $4m.

    --
    Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
  71. A thought occurs to me by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

    With all of these near-billion dollar ventures showing a bogus loss, isn't Uncle Sam losing out on tax revenue?

    I seem to recall that Sam gets pretty ticked off when he doesn't get paid. They put Capone away for tax evasion, you know. They didn't mind the murders as much.

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
    1. Re:A thought occurs to me by masmullin · · Score: 2, Informative

      They got him on tax evasion only because they couldn't get him on murder... its not like they willingly chose tax evasion over murder.

    2. Re:A thought occurs to me by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      The studio still shows a profit, just not the specific movie. You can shift the money around so as not to pay any partner stupid enough to take a cut of the net and to tax-advantage any profits you make, but the IRS isn't that dumb.

    3. Re:A thought occurs to me by budgenator · · Score: 1

      With all of these near-billion dollar ventures showing a bogus loss, isn't Uncle Sam losing out on tax revenue?

      No if "Gone in 60 Seconds" inc. losses it's ass on the movie, Buena Vista Distributors INC makes a metric boat load on it and pays the taxes, the Actors or at least their L.L.C.'s get paid more and pay more taxes; somebody pays the taxes eventually.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    4. Re:A thought occurs to me by FnordX · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unless the actors in question have the studio donate the actor's profits to the Church of Scientology. The Co$ then goes and pays the actor a "stipend" to live on, tax free, and, since the Co$ is a "charity", the movie studios get to write that off. The actors get to live tax free, the Co$ gets to play with the interest, and the studios get a tax break. Isn't religion wonderful?

      --
      ____________________
      Clouds in the Sky,
      Water in a bottle
    5. Re:A thought occurs to me by budgenator · · Score: 1

      good point, I do tend to avoid movies with known Scientologists in them

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  72. "Trick"? by fm6 · · Score: 1

    This is not a "trick". That word describes something that plays upon you gullibility or lack of attention, like a shortchange con. This is a complicated money management technique that you need a forensic accountant to sort out.

    Yeah, you can demand a percentage of the gross instead of the net. Not everybody's in a position to do that.

    Every time Slashdot has a story about a confidence trick, there's a lot of smug bullshit decrying the people who fell for it. The implication being that the poster is too smart to be conned. Hey, guess what? People who are full of their own brilliance are the softest marks of all.

    1. Re:"Trick"? by mpe · · Score: 1

      This is not a "trick". That word describes something that plays upon you gullibility or lack of attention, like a shortchange con. This is a complicated money management technique that you need a forensic accountant to sort out.

      IIRC the term "trick" was applied to Enron's accounting practices. Even though you need a PhD in accountancy to work out what was actually going on in that situation too!

  73. One trick from a long time ago by meerling · · Score: 1

    One trick that I heard about a long time ago that was supposedly used in "Hollywood Accounting" involved renting equipment you already owned to yourself for an inflated rate and then also claiming depreciation of the same gear.
    End result, they had a huge, but fictional, expense.

  74. who was getting scammed? by orthicviper · · Score: 1

    so who were the Harry Potter producers trying to cheat out of their fair dues?

  75. Re:When you consider who runs Hollywood... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article has its own rebuttal against nazi types:

    "As a proud Jew, I want America to know about our accomplishment. Yes, we control Hollywood. Without us, you'd be flipping between "The 700 Club" and "Davey and Goliath" on TV all day."

    Jewish people may hold a lot of high positions but that's largely because a lot of them are pretty darn smart. Hell, the number of Jews running studios is just a confirmation that the USA is a meritocracy.

  76. Re:So this means by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See: Civil disobedience*

    *That only applies to publicly breaking the law. You have to be loud about it or you are just hiding from the law. If you are going to infringe on copyright, it's not not civil disobedience unless you are speaking out against copyright law (ex. joining the Pirate Party). If you are smoking pot, it's not civil disobedience unless you are lobbying for new drug laws (or a member of a group that does so).

  77. Hollywood accounting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why don't they call it Jewish accounting? It's not as if the practice is particular to Hollywood or the film industry in general.

    Oh wait, I know why they don't... *runs and hides*

  78. No tax benefits if holding cos make profit by ami.one · · Score: 1

    As long as some holding company up the chain is making profits wouldn't the Tax kick in at that level ? So, it seems that the only 'benefit' is to avoid paying people who were to get % of gross/net/etc. Isn't that a clear fraud ? With the huge tort cases in the US for every small thing, how come this hasn't gotten fixed yet through some judgments etc ?

  79. Darth Vader banned from C5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    David Prowse, the actor who famously played Darth Vader in the original Star Wars trilogy has just posted on his site that he's been banned from the big Lucas Film Star Wars Celebration V (C5) in Orlando. It's possible this stems from complaints he made to Slashfilm last year that he isn't getting any residual checks because, according to LucasFilms, the films "never made a profit."

    If so, this is criminal. The guy's 76-years-old. He has massive arthritis problems. He's had hip and knee replacement surgery and can't move one of his arms. His main source of income is that he was one of the actors in the most successful movie franchise in history. Emporer Lucas, send the guy a couple checks or, at least, let him do some photo-ops.

    http://geektwins.blogspot.com/2010/06/darth-vader-actor-banned-from-star-wars.html

  80. Re:When you consider who runs Hollywood... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Jewish people may hold a lot of high positions but that's largely because a lot of them are pretty darn smart.

    Yes. After all they are the master race. Wait what...

  81. Re:ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS COMPLETELY OWNED BY JEWS by demonlapin · · Score: 1, Funny

    The obvious solution is to convert to Judaism.

  82. The real reason by Walt+Dismal · · Score: 1

    It's all because of piracy. If you look at line 54(b) of the Warners statement, it clearly says "Losses due to piracy by Jammie Thomas --- 212,000,637.15". With terrible theft like that going on, it's no wonder studios make no profit and can't pay contributors anything.

  83. Not to swim upstream but by patSPLAT · · Score: 1

    There's $12m of "Guild, Union, and Residual Payments" which is $12m more than Pirate Bay ever paid any artist.

  84. Same as the music biz by drkim · · Score: 1

    This has been going on in the music biz for many years: The record company would claim a huge production and distribution cost on the artist's music, and the artist would wind up owing them money, which they could only pay off by making the next album... (repeat)

  85. That is so beautiful by __aailob1448 · · Score: 1

    Your incredibly touching story about the plight of Hollywood has made me cry. God bless you and God bless the MPAA.