Happy 17th Birthday, Debian!

Thank you by Anonymous Coward · 2010-08-16 03:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

Thanks Murdock! This distro is still one of the easiest to maintain over a long period of time.

Re:Thank you by Jurily · 2010-08-16 04:11 · Score: 4, Insightful

Damn right it is. Debian is the distro you install on your mom's computer when you're moving 2000+ miles and don't want to fly home for tech support.
Over the course of two years, I've had exactly one problem with that box, and all it needed was a phone call + ssh.
Re:Thank you by Anonymous Coward · 2010-08-16 04:21 · Score: 4, Funny

2003 called. It wants its dipshit back. It's sending a reply-paid time machine for you to get in.
Re:Thank you by G3ckoG33k · 2010-08-16 04:55 · Score: 2, Informative

"Damn right it is. Debian is the distro you install on your mom's computer when you're moving 2000+ miles and don't want to fly home for tech support."
Last week I did just that. I installed it on your mom's compu... Nah, just kidding. But, I did install Debian on a relative's brand new box. He is 79 and was very satisifed. He has been using Debian for several years, and I upgrade once a year.
Re:Thank you by Sudheer_BV · 2010-08-16 05:52 · Score: 2, Funny

No. My favourite distro is the best distro.

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Re:Thank you by lisany · 2010-08-16 05:58 · Score: 1, Insightful

No. You get them a Mac and buy them a year of 1-on-1 training from Apple. The number of support calls I've fielded went to zero from the old windows system. My step-mother is happy to call the Apple store, load up the iMac and have the Apple staff show her how to do something. It's wonderful.
Re:Thank you by X0563511 · 2010-08-16 06:37 · Score: 1

... until the 1-on-1 training expires, and then YOU get to do it.

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Re:Thank you by spazdor · 2010-08-16 06:50 · Score: 1

You're both wrong. It's MY favourite which is the best.

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Re:Thank you by lisany · 2010-08-16 08:20 · Score: 1

Nope. Step-mother and father purchased another year. They saw the obvious value in it! $99/yr for unlimited one-on-one tutelage on their own computer is a simple choice. Besides, if they didn't buy it for a second year I would have for them!
Re:Thank you by Anonymous Coward · 2010-08-16 11:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

Hmm, let me think about it... no, I still prefer the free Debian option to the $1000+ (not including mandatory upgrade cycle) Apple one.
Re:Thank you by TangoMargarine · 2010-08-16 13:03 · Score: 1

Because buying a computer that costs easily over a thousand dollars and has a way different interface than the mainstream one, for grandparents that are probably going to use it to just send emails, makes SO much sense...

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Re:Thank you by bstamour · 2010-08-16 13:19 · Score: 1

Who says upgrades are mandatory? If it keeps working why trash it? With that mindset, every PC has a mandatory upgrade cycle...
Re:Thank you by TangoMargarine · 2010-08-18 06:00 · Score: 1

There's a difference between spending money, and spending more money to buy a product with features that you know the user isn't going to take advantage of, with a non-standard interface to boot. The opposite of the latter is called efficiency.

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I remember my first Debian... by e065c8515d206cb0e190 · 2010-08-16 03:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

I was coming from Slackware and apt-get seemed magical. Never left the boat since.
Long life to Debian!

Re:I remember my first Debian... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-08-16 03:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

True enough! Debian was the best idea around when they started introducing the concept of dependency resolution and meta data. It has been one of my faves ever since.
Re:I remember my first Debian... by hcpxvi · 2010-08-16 04:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

I was coming from Slackware and apt-get seemed magical.
I was coming from being an ordinary user on Solaris systems. Installing Debian (from a stack of floppies!) and finding myself logged on as root was magical. I also have stuck with Debian ever since. It's just excellent. A huge cheer for the vast crowd of people who make it possible.
Re:I remember my first Debian... by marcosdumay · 2010-08-16 06:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

I was comming from a broken Red Hat install, that succeded a broken Connectiva one, that succeded another broken Connectiva one, all of those refused to install my software due to dependency problems. Debian stable simply installed everything, and from the very few packages you couldn't install from testing, most become installable once you added the stable tree to sources.list, and most of the others just become installable a week or so after that. And it upgrades, and upgrades, and still you can install all those packages, even if you are using testing. That awesome.
And, of course, after you feel what is like having a desktop system where it is easier to find new software at the repository list than on Google, there is no comming back. I once tried to switch my desktop to Suse, just to find that I'd need to install (and keep up to date) nearly all my software by hand. That and the fact that you can configure it all by ssh, without any GUI program changing the settings that you choosed later makes it way easier to maintain than Red Rat and Suse on a server.

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Rethinking email
Re:I remember my first Debian... by X0563511 · 2010-08-16 06:41 · Score: 1

Debian was my first. I keep coming back... can't seem to get away :)

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For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Re:I remember my first Debian... by Jon+Abbott · 2010-08-16 07:36 · Score: 2, Informative

Apt-get is magical. It has Super Cow Powers. ;^)

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Boiler up! by 0100010001010011 · 2010-08-16 03:43 · Score: 1

Just happen to be on campus today, maybe I'll go over to the CS building and pour one out.

Debian or IE to last? by netsuhi.com · 2010-08-16 03:44 · Score: 2, Interesting

So there are two important aprts of the internet with birthdays very close together. I wonder if Debian or IE will last the longest?

Re:Debian or IE to last? by Kjella · 2010-08-16 03:52 · Score: 4, Interesting

In terms of name, my bet would be on IE. If the Debian leaders manage to act retarded enough the community might have to fork and pick a new name but the project would live on. While with IE I figure there's a good chance Microsoft will eventually figure out that developing their own browser engine is a waste of resources and create their own Webkit-based browser, but still under the IE name. So one could have the same content with a different name, the other different content with the same name.

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Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Re:Debian or IE to last? by richdun · 2010-08-16 03:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

Depends on what you mean by "last."
Debian will probably be kicking around on someone's toy web server or overly complex but overly awesome home file server for as long as there is someone either willing to get the kernel working on whatever hardware is available or rig up a network protocol to talk to our future brain/computer overlords.
IE will probably remain commercially relevant longer, sadly, for as long as there are corporations, there will be that one piece of mission critical software written X years ago that runs only on IE 6.0.
Re:Debian or IE to last? by MrHanky · 2010-08-16 04:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

You seriously think Microsoft will embrace an LGPL browser engine? Originally from the KDE project?
Re:Debian or IE to last? by AndrewNeo · 2010-08-16 04:10 · Score: 1

And actively developed by their direct competitor in nearly all fields, Apple?
Re:Debian or IE to last? by wvmarle · 2010-08-16 04:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

What? Apple's Safari also uses it! You're not going to suggest Microsoft to copy something from Apple do you? They would never do so!
Oh, wait...
Re:Debian or IE to last? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2010-08-16 04:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

If it is the cheapest way to get developers churning out c# applications running on Server2008/MSSQL/Azure on the back and Silverlight on the front, yeah I could imagine them doing that.

The horse has very much left the barn(for all but the most ossified projects that are also millstones around Microsoft's neck because they don't want to deal with IE6 anymore) when it comes to controlling the internet by being the de-facto HTML renderer and being a real oddball about it.

If, however, MS can reduce HTML to the header and footer that you wrap around your XAMLtastic chunk of Silverlight, the could easily save considerable money and lose essentially no influence by putting trident on ice(as some "compatibility mode", enableable by group policy for the corporate types) and switching to cheaper webkit for embedding silverlight objects.
Re:Debian or IE to last? by tokul · 2010-08-16 04:44 · Score: 1

So there are two important aprts of the internet with birthdays very close together. I wonder if Debian or IE will last the longest?

They are not close enough. Only some people want to celebrate things one month ahead of schedule. They couldn't wait for Friday and get drunk as usual. I guess hangover from three day drinking kicked in.
Re:Debian or IE to last? by Orange+Crush · 2010-08-16 04:50 · Score: 1

Between Apple, Google, RIM & HP/Palm all using WebKit, it looks poised to become the dominant mobile browser engine. If that happens, I think MS may swallow their pride and follow suit. Why keep spending money on their own engine just to play catch-up? It could be a wise business decision in the near future.
Re:Debian or IE to last? by KiloByte · 2010-08-16 05:03 · Score: 1

What "Internet Explorer" are you talking about? It has already been renamed to "Windows Internet Explorer", so the contest which name will last longer is already over.
And, also: die, WIE, die!

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Re:Debian or IE to last? by MrHanky · 2010-08-16 05:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

Playing catch-up can be immensely profitable if you also sell web services that aren't as well supported by the competing browsers, especially if the competition's web services depend on other browsers: MS Web service users will be forced to use IE, IE users will choose MS Web services. Apple plays the same game with media formats. It's called lock-in.
Re:Debian or IE to last? by turbidostato · 2010-08-16 05:52 · Score: 1

"You seriously think Microsoft will embrace an LGPL browser engine?"
Why not? They are against GPL (being communist and all that song) but they are quite in favour of the BSD (as long as they can take advantage of others' code, not that they distribute so much under the BSD themselves) and LGPL is second to the BSD in that they can take others' code to their advantage without giving back so much.
Re:Debian or IE to last? by jazzmans · 2010-08-16 07:30 · Score: 1

You forgot The Hurd, you insensitive clod!
hahahaa!
no, really, Debian user for 10 years now, Debian kicks ass.
AFAIC, it's the best linux (or any other) distro out there.
XFCE4 for the win!
jaz

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Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans. No-one sees motorcycles
Re:Debian or IE to last? by Eunuchswear · 2010-08-16 21:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

How could one forget the Hurd? Debian is the best Hurd distribution there is.
Or did you think Debian was a Linux distro?

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Watch this Heartland Institute video
Re:Debian or IE to last? by Randle_Revar · 2010-08-17 00:43 · Score: 1

MS basing IE on Webkit is incredibly unlikely - but not as unlikely as Debian undergoing a fork like that.

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Climate Progress - Hell and High Water

So next year... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-08-16 03:45 · Score: 2, Funny

... Debian can fsck all it wants ;)

Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by kwabbles · 2010-08-16 03:46 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's actually kind of sad that most people identify Debian solely as being "that one that Ubuntu's based on".

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Just disrupt the deflector shield with a tachyon burst.

Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by druke · 2010-08-16 03:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

Anyone who really feels this way doesn't understand open source.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by arkane1234 · 2010-08-16 03:52 · Score: 4, Interesting

Actually most base Ubuntu as "That one that's based on Debian".
I refer to it as Red Hat on training wheels :)

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Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by e065c8515d206cb0e190 · 2010-08-16 03:55 · Score: 4, Insightful

Is it about understanding Open Source? Or giving credit where credit is due?

I'm not saying the guys at Ubuntu just sit there and do nothing, but Debian deserves way more than being called "the distro Ubuntu is based on".
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by Kepesk · 2010-08-16 04:04 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's actually kind of sad that most people identify Debian solely as being "that one that Ubuntu's based on".
Not really, I'd say that's a compliment to Debian. To create a basic system solid enough that the most popular Linux distribution is based on it? That rocks!

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Help me fix my brother's injured butt!
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by kwabbles · 2010-08-16 04:04 · Score: 5, Funny

Okay lemme make sure I have this straight...
Premise 1:
Being a Debian user for 15 years I'm sad to see it relegated to being only identified in the mainstream as something that a dumbed-down desktop distro is based on.
Premise 2:
Anyone who feels that way doesn't understand open source.
Therefore:
I don't understand open source.
It's all crystal clear to me now. My eyes have been opened.

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Just disrupt the deflector shield with a tachyon burst.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by Anonymous Coward · 2010-08-16 04:06 · Score: 1, Funny

no that would be mandrivia or fedora
both the last time I tried (admittedly quite a while back) had broken rpm systems and GCC was borked, I couldnt imagine paying money for it
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by StormReaver · 2010-08-16 04:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's actually kind of sad that most people identify Debian solely as being "that one that Ubuntu's based on".
Why? Debian is incapable of appealing to a mass audience. Ubuntu is a necessary extension that fills that need. Debian is exactly where its developers put it.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by kwabbles · 2010-08-16 04:15 · Score: 3, Funny

Did you just pose a question as a premise?

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Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by CAIMLAS · 2010-08-16 04:20 · Score: 1

Nonsense. Ubuntu is that one based on Debian, but with more crap and less clean.

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Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by CAIMLAS · 2010-08-16 04:22 · Score: 1

So what's that make Redhat? Ubuntu but with a fork in the eye if you want to change anything?
Snark aside, upgrading an RPM system still makes me nervous - not as nervous as rebuilding a BSD system's ports or something similar on Gentoo or slackware, but certainly more so than on Debian. Even Ubuntu is less of a nightmare when it breaks.

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Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by Abcd1234 · 2010-08-16 04:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

Being a Debian user for 15 years I'm sad to see it relegated to being only identified in the mainstream as something that a dumbed-down desktop distro is based on.
As opposed to what?
Look, my path to Linux took me through Slackware 15 years ago (wow I don't miss installing Linux from dozens of floppies) through RedHat, and then Debian. And I was happy for a while. Sure, Debian packages are decidedly archaic, but you couldn't ask for a more stable Linux distribution. Everything just seemed to work.
And then I tried Ubuntu. Suddenly things I just assumed wouldn't work out of the box (basic crap like wireless, USB printers and mass storage devices just working and integrating with the desktop, and god knows what else) just... did. I mean, sure, I could always get Debian there eventually, with enough tinkering. But dear god, Ubuntu did all the tinkering for me! And I got a more modern package set to boot. Not to mention PPAs, which make taking on non-standard repositories dead simple.
So, because Ubuntu took the rather rough diamond that is Debian and polished it up, it's somehow "dumbed down"? Really?
Frankly, it seems to me there is a choice: either you run a rough distro that forces the user to roll up their sleeves and get dirty, and then you can feel all smart and superior, or you can make something that actually works for your average user, and lets us power users just fucking get on with it already, and then get labeled "dumbed down". Which is, frankly, pretty fucking stupid, but such is the world of tech geeks who feel its cool to have to manually hack files in /etc in order to get their god damned printer to just print already.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by CrkHead · 2010-08-16 05:01 · Score: 4, Interesting

I think you summed it up fairly well.

As a project, Debian is most interested in Freedom and stability. Although someone coming from a *nix back ground shouldn't have much trouble, someone new to computers or coming over from one of the dark sides is likely to.

Enter Ubuntu. Their primary interest is getting Linux on the desktop. Debian is an ideal base because it has everything, so you just need to keep current on the unstable version and put some chrome on it.

Grey beards keep their Debian and the whipper snappers stay off the lawn.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by cparker15 · 2010-08-16 05:14 · Score: 1

The last time I used Fedora, it was as easy as using Debian. yum felt a lot like aptitude. No more dependency hell!

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Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by cparker15 · 2010-08-16 05:15 · Score: 1

And less uptime!

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Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by kwabbles · 2010-08-16 05:42 · Score: 4, Informative

"So, because Ubuntu took the rather rough diamond that is Debian and polished it up, it's somehow "dumbed down"? Really?"
Why does everyone think that what Debian is trying to be is a polished up desktop OS? I hear this time and time again "Ubuntu is a polished up Debian" or "Ubuntu took Debian and finished the job" blah blah... or that Debian is somehow some unfinished rough draft of a project that needed Mark Shuttleworth to come around and complete.
Debian is a general purpose GNU/Linux - server OS, appliance OS, embedded OS... you name it - Debian can be used for it. Ubuntu is a desktop OS. That's it - plain and simple... Ubuntu is made from the ground up with the end user in mind for a rich DESKTOP experience. It just HAPPENS to be BASED on Debian. Yes, there is a "server" version of Ubuntu (which I find silly and is a topic for another conversation) but not even that is meant to be as flexible as vanilla Debian.
Personally I think it's silly to "roll up your sleeves and get dirty" to use Debian as your desktop OS. When I want to install an operating system on my desktop for general purpose use I get out the Ubuntu or the Fedora CD. My firewall at home? Debian. My streaming media box? Debian. My servers at work? Debian. Each distro is tailored to excel at one or a set of different jobs. Those that have a limited understanding of computers in general have a myopic view of the whole thing and expect that Linux is something for a personal computer - and that any distro that doesn't make a PC sing and dance out of the box is simply "unfinished" and "needs work". I'm sorry, but my Debian doesn't need any work or any polishing. It does perfectly well doing what it's meant to do.

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Just disrupt the deflector shield with a tachyon burst.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by Abcd1234 · 2010-08-16 05:52 · Score: 4, Informative

I'm sorry, but my Debian doesn't need any work or any polishing. It does perfectly well doing what it's meant to do.
I couldn't agree more, actually.
The only reason I might consider giving Debian a shot, again, is their stability, particularly across upgrades, is largely unparalleled in any other distro, which is rather nice on a machine that you use day-to-day, but want to keep up-to-date.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by kwabbles · 2010-08-16 05:56 · Score: 4, Funny

Dammit, you're supposed to keep arguing with me. Now what am I supposed to do with my Monday morning at work? Parse my syslogs?

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Just disrupt the deflector shield with a tachyon burst.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by Albert+Sandberg · 2010-08-16 06:06 · Score: 1

If ubuntu dies.... debian lives... if debian dies?
Congratulations on 15 years, let's make another 15 for starters....
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by causality · 2010-08-16 06:27 · Score: 1

Is it about understanding Open Source? Or giving credit where credit is due?
I don't really view that as an either-or scenario. As a user of a great deal of Open Source software, I'd file "understanding Open Source" under the general heading of "giving credit where it is due".

I'm not saying the guys at Ubuntu just sit there and do nothing, but Debian deserves way more than being called "the distro Ubuntu is based on".
Anyone who would deny the tremendous influence Debian has had on the Open Source community is simply ignorant of the facts and, therefore, wrong. It'd be easy enough to correct them. I don't see that as some kind of threat to any notion of what they do or don't deserve, perhaps because I have none. I just appreciate it as it is, confident that ignorance won't survive even a cursory effort to find fact. I suppose I'd make a terrible fanboy.

Note, I don't even use Debian today, though I did use it sometime around 1998-1999.

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It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by FoolishOwl · 2010-08-16 06:33 · Score: 1

That's kind of the point of free software, isn't it?
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by Requiem18th · 2010-08-16 07:24 · Score: 1

Actually I have a complaint about debian, I tried to like it, I still do, but I can't install it on my system.
The installer failed me, it didn't recognize my (integrated) network card which it needed to download the drivers from my usb --when installing from usb-- or dvd --when installing from dvd--
First I tried "testing" netinst, then the first full CD, then the freaking DVD. And it failed.
I tried Linux Mint then, it just worked. Everything.
So I'm sure debian is a great OS but I couldn't get it to work and its mostly their fault, of course they have no obligation to make it easy for ME to install it, I can't demand anything from them, but why couldn't they just rip-off whatever makes Ubuntu/Mint so easy to install? Maybe a "Fat Netinst" that is minimalist yet loads a gazillion Ethernet drivers so that you can actually get to the "inst" part would be good idea.

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Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by Abcd1234 · 2010-08-16 08:13 · Score: 1

Yeah, its just slow as balls... apt is still, I think, a far better toolset.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by Tubal-Cain · 2010-08-16 08:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

...if Debian dies?
Then many of the Debian-originated tools (apt) get spun off as independent projects. Ubuntu becomes a standalone distro (and probably chokes for a release or two). Due to the sudden influx of Debian users and developers, Ubuntu would also probably start that permanently-unstable Grumpy Groundhog idea (basically an Ubuntu sid) that they've been considering.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by korpenkraxar · 2010-08-16 09:53 · Score: 1

Archlinux handles those upgrades pretty well too :-)
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by spazdor · 2010-08-16 10:52 · Score: 1

Is it about understanding Open Source? Or giving credit where credit is due?
I think a central part of the Open Source philosophy is that giving credit where it's due is secondary to the goal of developing better tools for users. This is why OSS licenses allow forks to be developed without the authorization of the person to whom credit is due.

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DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by kwabbles · 2010-08-16 11:06 · Score: 1

Thank you for your comments which have been forwarded to the proper department. You will be contacted shortly to report for rehabilitation. May RMS have mercy on your soul.

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Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by spazdor · 2010-08-16 11:11 · Score: 1

Being a harpsichord player for 150 years I'm sad to see it relegated to being only identified in the mainstream as something that a dumbed-down pianoforte instrument is based on.

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DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by lawpoop · 2010-08-16 11:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

Is it about understanding Open Source? Or giving credit where credit is due?

Do you call it Debian GNU/Linux?

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Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by Spugglefink · 2010-08-16 11:51 · Score: 1

And less uptime!
In exchange for which, you don't have to struggle so much against the irritation of having developers lose their patience with you when you keep filing bug reports against some application that's five years out of date. Sure, the Debian Way(tm) is to let the maintainers deal with this, because the obsolete code is in their package, and it's their problem, but in practice the users come straight upstream.

"I have this horrible bug. You must fix it yesterday!"
"What distro are you running?"
"Debian Stable."
"You mean the one that released with version 0.0.1 of our app that is now at 2.5.6? Why are you wasting my time!? I did fix it yesterday! I fixed it four years ago!"
"Linux sucks! Developers are mean!"
I love Debian, but I hate it when our users run Debian. I'm glad most of the Debian fans gravitated toward Ubuntu, as I did myself. I have no idea what Debian Stable looks like these days, but Woody was 40,000 years old and completely obsolete when they finally replaced it.
I don't think "the one that's based on Debian" is so insulting to Debian itself. What Debian gets right is stability, stability, stability. The problem is end users don't have the patience to wait that long, and they start messing around with Testing or Sid, and then you wind up with all these completely bizarre interactions that just piss everyone off at every level of the process. "Your app doesn't work on my Debian that's a mixture from three different repositories and has some custom hacking. Why can't you repeat and fix my issue? You suck."
I think Ubuntu and all the other things that followed along the same lines as "the Debian normal people at home can actually use every day" have really been a good development for Linux.
I've been using Ubuntu myself for quite some time now (the third LTS?) and yet I still think of myself as a Debian fan. None of these spin-offs would be where they are today without Debian. They're not forks. They're not divided permanently from the mother distro.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by causality · 2010-08-16 13:53 · Score: 1

Is it about understanding Open Source? Or giving credit where credit is due?
I think a central part of the Open Source philosophy is that giving credit where it's due is secondary to the goal of developing better tools for users. This is why OSS licenses allow forks to be developed without the authorization of the person to whom credit is due.
The author's choice to use the GPL is their authorization. If they consider it critical to prevent this, there are a multitude of other licenses that could be used. The credit given is that this is done openly; there is no mystery about who originally started a project that was later forked.

"No credit given" would be more like taking a major OSS project, forking it and making minor changes, and then claiming to be the author of the entire new project. That's not part of the GPL. It'd also be highly unethical.

I'm not sure if I would say that credit is secondary. I'd say that the concern about it is addressed in a healthy way. Renown and respect for one's skills has to be at least a partial motivator for at least some OSS developers along with the more altruistic motivations.

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It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by evJeremy · 2010-08-16 16:18 · Score: 1

Most likely there were no drivers that complied with the debian free software guidelines. This isn't a problem for Ubuntu (and in turn mint) thanks to it being backed by Canonical, but as a more independent project it's considered too risky to include such non-free drivers in debian. It's a trivial problem to work around most of the time, but it has annoyed me in the past, just not enough to switch distros.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by spazdor · 2010-08-16 17:18 · Score: 1

OK, I did go a bit far in saying 'secondary'. Authorship is still quite respected and central, and without attribution OSS is not OSS.
But attribution, the disclosure of authorship, is not the same thing as advertising or notoriety. Anyone who cares to learn the pedigree of a forked project should have no trouble finding out who contributed the code - if Ubuntu is only attributing Debian in the fine print, and not adding a "based on Debian" byline to their frontpage logo, none of Debian's rights are violated, and the authors can't claim to have expected any more than that.
"Giving credit", i think, is a matter of degrees.

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DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by atisss · 2010-08-16 17:53 · Score: 1

Daughter Ubuntu comes to Debian and kisses him on cheek "Happy birthday dad". Then she looks around and sees Fedora and Slackware.
- Is Gentoo not coming?
- No, he's still making.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by e065c8515d206cb0e190 · 2010-08-17 02:19 · Score: 1

I don't really call it. I use it. But just in case:

# cat /etc/motd
Linux 2.6.32-trunk-amd64 #1 SMP Sun Jan 10 22:40:40 UTC 2010 x86_64

The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free software;
the exact distribution terms for each program are described in the
individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.

Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent
permitted by applicable law.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by laddiebuck · 2010-08-20 14:15 · Score: 1

Just to add a point: I don't like tinkering around in /etc or whatever, mostly because I'd rather not waste my time on that but also because I'm sure if I do that it'll break with some upgrade down the line -- just let the maintainers do their job.

That said, I've tried desktop Ubuntu a few times, it's been a bit hit and miss, sometimes it worked great, sometimes not and it got in my way. Debian (which is what I mostly run on my desktops) never gets in my way, and support just monotonically gets better. My current desktop is a macbook and whilst it took some tinkering to get Lenny running, I thought that a fair price and it would have been about the same on Ubuntu (I read their two wikis) becaue of Linux support for macbooks isn't quite where it is on PC laptops. The one area from the wikis where it seemed Ubuntu might be better is suspend support, as they have a newer hardware subsystem. Everything else worked out of the box, except I replaced networkmanager with wicd (both Debian and Ubuntu ship with networkmanager, which just gets in your hair).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the "everything just works out of the box" stuff on Debian is really good these days, probably just as good as Ubuntu for a normal machine. The days when Ubuntu had a huge edge in that are in the past. And Debian has easier upgrades, more packages (older in the stable version than Ubuntu's though) and it personally gets in my way less on the desktop.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that by Peaceful_Patriot · 2010-08-22 16:41 · Score: 1

Thank you. I have been using Linux for 10 years. I love Debian. I give them props every day. But nowadays I use Ubuntu because it makes things easy. Not dumbed down. I wish the Deb folks would stop being so defensive about this.

I always considered the friendly rivalry among distros to be like family. Competitive but still rooting for each other to succeed. We can poke and jab at each other, but let an outsider attack one of us and they attack us all.

Relax, Deb. We know where the Ubuntu goodness comes from. A parent shouldn't be so jealous of their child. Its not healthy.

--
There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

Props to Debian, father of Mepis! by darealpat · 2010-08-16 03:46 · Score: 3, Interesting

So far as being easy to use goes, I give Mepis more marks than its more popular cousin Ubuntu. Those that have tried it will understand. And I am not a KDE fan boy, not with my fond memories of RH 7.2

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For every present, there is a past

Re:Props to Debian, father of Mepis! by arkane1234 · 2010-08-16 04:11 · Score: 1

And I am not a KDE fan boy, not with my fond memories of RH 7.2
9 years does quite a bit to change things.
KDE and Gnome are neck and neck nowadays, in my eyes.
That being said, I always fall back to Window Maker.

--
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!

apt-get install love by doublebackslash · 2010-08-16 03:48 · Score: 4, Interesting

Debian, making installing dependencies a reflex rather than a compulsory chore. That alone would have gotten my praise. Then they also bolted on an incredibly stable and useful kernel and software stack on top of that.

Good show! (I know I got the order wrong, but thats the order of importance to me)

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md5sum /boot/vmlinuz
d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e /boot/vmlinuz

Re:apt-get install love by wvmarle · 2010-08-16 04:30 · Score: 1

Apt works great, true.
Though it's not much better than my latest experiences with Mandriva, an RPM based distro. I have had quite a share of problems with RPM and dependencies... but this seems to have been solved quite well by now.
That said: running Debian as server, and I love it. Super stable, it just works, nothing to worry about there.
Running Ubuntu 10.4LTS as desktop now. Not happy. The user interface is great, but the system is unstable. I experience crashes, software weirdness (network that doesn't start on boot! Had to manually fix that using initrd!), etc - just not fun. Strongly considering moving back to Mandriva. Partly because I miss their management tools.
Re:apt-get install love by marsu_k · 2010-08-16 04:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

I really, really wish people would stop comparing Apt and RPM, the actual comparison would be dpkg vs RPM. And just as pretty much nobody uses dpkg directly, the same applies to RPM. People use one of the various frontends (yum, urpmi, what have you). While at one time automatically resolving dependencies was godsend, it's nothing special now.
(I'm quite impartial to the debate, pacman is where it's at. It would be nice to see an actual apples to apples comparison for a change though)
Re:apt-get install love by jimicus · 2010-08-16 06:37 · Score: 2, Informative

Thing is, yum and urpmi were fairly late to the game in Redhat - yum originated in YellowDog and urpmi originated in Mandrake. I went from Slakware to Redhat and - when I learned about urpmi - to Mandrake. When I went back to redhat a few years later, I couldn't believe that RedHat still couldn't automatically install dependencies in order.
Re:apt-get install love by laddiebuck · 2010-08-20 14:21 · Score: 1

pacman may be nice, but if the underlying package maintainers (Arch) screw around with dependencies like they did a while back, it's not much use. I ran Arch 0.7 and the next few versions for a few months and I can remember several pacman system upgrades breaking the system in various ways (one time pacman itself got removed, that was funny).

Even if they've fixed it, I know I can trust the Debian maintainers...

Damn you slashdot by Spyware23 · 2010-08-16 03:48 · Score: 5, Informative

Is there -any- possible reason for this ./ article to link to http://digitizor.com/2010/08/16/happy-17th-birthday-debian-and-some-interesting-history/ instead of linking to the _official_ birthday page: http://thank.debian.net/ Also, like kwebbles mentioned, it's really sad you sad to bring up Ubuntu. It's Debian's birthday, you insensitive clods.

Re:Damn you slashdot by Anonymous Coward · 2010-08-16 03:52 · Score: 2, Insightful

Maybe because the article has useful info and is interesting to read, while the 'official page' you linked feels like it belongs on geocities in the age of the blink tag?
Re:Damn you slashdot by Spyware23 · 2010-08-16 04:33 · Score: 3, Informative

Useful info? That digitizor website included a useless "trivia" list to make the article seem bigger. Seem. Fine, if there has to be a news-post, link to the official debian.net post: http://news.debian.net/2010/08/16/happy-birthday-debian-2/
Re:Damn you slashdot by sznupi · 2010-08-16 06:45 · Score: 1

We could have only wished a typical geocities site to be so classy...

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One that hath name thou can not otter

Happy birthday by drunkennewfiemidget · 2010-08-16 03:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

To the distro I keep crawling back to. I always go off searching for the next great thing, and realise debian was the great thing all along.

And ubuntu is second rate (at best) compared to debian. Ubuntu's got severe stability problems. debian almost never fails me.

Re:Happy birthday by IrquiM · 2010-08-16 04:08 · Score: 3, Insightful

Why are you always going off to search for the next great thing if Debian is so good?
I've dual booted myself, but only to try out different distros (like debian, ubuntu, etc) - I've never been "off to search for the next great thing". If you're happy with what you've got - stick with it. New distros tend to be either specialised in one field, or tweaked beyond useful (read ubuntu). Stick with the good old ones, that you know work, and try to help them instead! :o)
(Personally, I'm sticking with Slackware)

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This is blinging
Re:Happy birthday by Anonymous Coward · 2010-08-16 04:26 · Score: 1, Insightful

We used to have Linux snobs who were snobs because Windows and MacOS were popular. Now it seems we have Linux snobs who are also snobs about some Linux distros because those are popular. But don't worry fellas, one of the great strengths of open source is that there will always be more trendy and elitist distros coming down the line.
Re:Happy birthday by interval1066 · 2010-08-16 04:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

"Ubuntu's got severe stability problems."
Such a bald-ass simple statement really requires back up. I've not had ANY stability problems, much less severe. And I've been running this distro since Feisty Fawn. The worst thing about Ubuntu that I've ever experienced is its ridiculous desktop color schemes, and they never seem to get any better, but that's easily changed.

--
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
Re:Happy birthday by drunkennewfiemidget · 2010-08-16 04:44 · Score: 1

Because I always wonder if they can actually be better.
Re:Happy birthday by drunkennewfiemidget · 2010-08-16 04:58 · Score: 2, Informative

This is /. I'm all about the hyperbole.
In all seriousness, though, there's plenty of documented issues. Many of which have bitten me or a friend/colleague:
- Pressing the 'wireless lock' button on a coworker's netbook would kernel panic.
- My wife's netbook would randomly crash, and on reboot have lost half its filesystem.
- Major (recent) releases have shipped without working WPA.
And yes, I understand many of these may be upstream's fault, or someone outside of the Ubuntu world, but these same issues didn't impact other distros.
Ubuntu seems to put more effort into making it pretty and changing the UI than making it stable.
Re:Happy birthday by mikael_j · 2010-08-16 05:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

You should check out the Ubuntu forums after a new release, it's obvious that they tend to overlook things they shouldn't be overlooking.
Over the years they've managed some pretty neat fuck-ups such as replacing the disk encryption system without testing if it was possible to migrate encrypted volumes (it wasn't, not without serious pains anyway) and randomly breaking all sorts of "little" things.
And I have no idead what they've done with the networking subsystem but I'd love to know why Ubuntu is the only OS/distro I'm consistently having network issues with (if I enable IPv6 on an interface using the GUI tools it nukes the entire interface and sometimes the only thing that helps is wiping the config for that interface and either rebooting or restarting everything but the kernel). This is on several machines and networks and a problem I have not had with Debian, Slackware, FreeBSD, OS X or any other OS with IPv6 support...
Oh, and I just loved how my Ubuntu 9.10 desktop decided that since I already had a font package it wanted to install installed when upgrading to 10.04 LTS it should deinstall the xserver-xorg-core package without telling me...
Yes, Ubuntu has issues since it tries to stay bleeding edge and isn't nearly as concerned with stability as many more mature distros are.

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Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
Re:Happy birthday by interval1066 · 2010-08-16 05:23 · Score: 1

- Pressing the 'wireless lock' button on a coworker's netbook would kernel panic.
Not on mine, nor anyone else I know. So you offer one personal event as proof that the distro is flawed? Not good enough.
- My wife's netbook would randomly crash, and on reboot have lost half its filesystem.
Never seen a corruption of any file system, EVER. Same as first point.
- Major (recent) releases have shipped without working WPA.
Really? Which ones? WPA security is all I've ever used (as using WEP is foolish) and in fact I've use it with both TKIP and AES, and never had a problem. So which release specifically had a problem? Remember, I've been using it since Fiesty.

--
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
Re:Happy birthday by interval1066 · 2010-08-16 05:25 · Score: 1

"You should check out the Ubuntu forums after a new release..."
This goes for any release of anything under the sun. The rest of your objections I've not had any experience with, except to say that I can definitely say that I've not had any problems with ipv6 WITH ipv4.

--
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
Re:Happy birthday by cnj · 2010-08-16 05:39 · Score: 1

There are three possible meanings to the phrase

Ubuntu's got severe stability problems
.
a) A system has (more properly a "largish" subset of systems running the Ubuntu distribution have) stability problems.
b) While the machines themselves are stable, there could be significant changes in the distribution over a relatively short time.
c) The distribution has a psychosis.
I'll let others approach a and c. As for b, the distribution does have stability issues as compared to most mainstream distributions, let alone Debian-stable. I've yet to go through an Ubuntu update without having things break requiring some moderate digging around.
Some obvious things that I wouldn't have expected to happen in Debian:
Ubuntu pushed new Nvidia drivers at nigh the last moment, as happend with Jaunty. The drivers had some stability bug and the fix on launch day was to revert to an older version from the beta. Debian would never release binary-drivers with it's distribution.
Ubuntu changed configuration systems between Jaunty, Karmic, and Lucid--specifically those configuring input in X. The Synaptics touchpad on my MacBook worked fine in Jaunty. I've not gotten it to work right since but looking at the configuration files for each system shows the radically different configuration systems, and the update process obviously didn't do the Right Thing during the update since it broke. Debian would never have three named releases within a calendar year.
My girlfriend managed to update from Karmic to Lucid by herself. I had told her that it was ok to update packages as they became available, but hadn't realized how easy it would be for her to actually update the entire system to a new release. Her Eee PC's wireless networking and ACPI triggers broke forcing me to fix things that had just been working manually. Some of these came back with a reboot, for others I needed to find the "new" packages in Lucid, for others some manual tweaking, and apparently some of the buttons aren't working "right" still. I never would have had a girlfriend running Debian.

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Never trust anyone over 90000.
Re:Happy birthday by ZosX · 2010-08-16 05:49 · Score: 1

Every version of Ubuntu I have ever installed had its own issues. Maybe you have the best linux supported hardware in the world or something, but if you just dump ubuntu on some pc with cheap, crappy hardware, you are likely to start feeling some pain. I've even had issues with ubuntu in virtualbox in the past, though that was more likely due to the virtual x drivers. I'm just saying that ubuntu is not this magic linux distro that you can just install on anything and expect everything to work without dropping to a command prompt. That is certainly more the case than it was 10 years ago, but there are all kinds of things that are common that linux does not support well out of the box, like, gee, graphics cards for instance. Unless you are like content with a slow framebuffer or lack of 3d support, or all the problems that the open source drivers seem to have.
The last time I tried ubuntu, it was 9.04 I believe and I couldn't get sound working right due to pulse audio borking everything. I quickly gave up and went right back to windows. Not many people have time for that crap. Also, I would like to add that in spite of having a far more hands on approach, every debian box that I ever built gave me nary an issue once I had hardware support established. Many times when I would throw ubuntu on an older P2-P3 machine, I usually had some sort of issue or several for that matter. I do like ubuntu, but I sure wouldn't run a server with it.......there's always debian for that.....

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zosxavius photography
Re:Happy birthday by ToasterMonkey · 2010-08-16 05:54 · Score: 1

Such a bald-ass simple statement really requires back up. I've not had ANY stability problems, much less severe. And I've been running this distro since Feisty Fawn. The worst thing about Ubuntu that I've ever experienced is its ridiculous desktop color schemes, and they never seem to get any better, but that's easily changed.
Well, the Linux community has redefined 'stability' to mean 'does not randomly crash', making this an impossible argument, but I will attempt the impossible!
Stability used to refer to developer/administrator/user interfaces not changing, thus not breaking any dependancies. Obviously large swaths of what make up Linux, to include the kernel itself does not consider that a worthwhile goal and the term took on the meaning "does not crash", or "future updates do not cause crashing". For any definition of crash.
To create some semblance of stability in the old sense (which is typically a superset of the new meaning), some Linux distributions slow the rate of change as best they can. Ubuntu is not one of those.
Lets be at least a little professional here and not write the OP off with the "stability means BSOD and I don't have those" response please. EX: An option name being arbitrarily renamed could be a stability issue. An API arbitrarily changing could be a stability issue. Crashing is a much bigger, narrower problem.
Now, reconsider what the OP said please.
Re:Happy birthday by interval1066 · 2010-08-16 06:40 · Score: 1

Lets be at least a little professional here and not write the OP off with the "stability means BSOD and I don't have those" response please...
I'm not proving that I don't have a problem with Ubuntu, THAT'S a ridiculous argument and not the professional one. All I can say is of all the distros I've tried Ubuntu has been the most problem free. I don't feel the need to defend that statement; it is what it is. Empirical proof will come when I experience all these problems everyone else is claiming, I guess. Until then lets be professional and stick to empirical evidence, shall we? Anecdotal remarks are not evidence for a wide-spread or systemic platform problem.

--
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
Re:Happy birthday by IrquiM · 2010-08-16 06:51 · Score: 1

Well... what have you learned? They never are!

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This is blinging
Re:Happy birthday by niteshifter · 2010-08-16 06:56 · Score: 1

Regarding the WPA fail, I believe the GP was refering to Ubuntu 6.10 - Edgy Eft. Wireless + WPA was problematic. One had to deal with WPA supplicant and / or GNOME's nm-applet to get wireless up and running. I say "and / or" because I never did figure out which was the magic bullet ;)
I swore off Windows in 2006. I tried many distros, including Debian. Ubuntu was the least troublesome to get working. This coming from a guy who has tinkered - and worked - with Linux since there was a Linux to tinker with. No babe in the woods here, I cut my teeth on the Unix Timesharing System Version 3 (and 4).
Sometimes the point is to build the best-est & baddest box in your part of the woods. Geek cred does have a certain utility (Debian). Other times we just need a functional machine for our work (Ubuntu).
But I will say this: Once (if ever) the economy comes back to the point where I can part with a few grand for my best-est & baddest build-to-tinker-n-tweak box - it will be running Debian.
Re:Happy birthday by ZosX · 2010-08-16 08:48 · Score: 1

Ohhh yeah. I forgot to add the netbook (asus eeeeeepc) that ubuntu trashed that my friend had. It wouldn't boot or anything. To me it looked dead and/or bricked, but low and behold a magical bios flash from the recovery mode of the board and it sprung back to life ready to be trashed by ubuntu again. If an OS did that once to my hardware, I'd never really trust it again.
I find, if anything, the best course of action is to just install the last version of ubuntu versus the newest one. Usually all the critical bugs of the previous release have been mostly shaken out by the beginning of their release cycle. There is a reason debian plods along so slowly (glacially to some) and it has everything to do with security and stability. Ubuntu is just merely taking debian as a base and throwing their own untested wackiness on top. Sure their desktop looks sleek (modern almost), but it isn't until it hits the masses that serious bugs surface and a lot of it is certainly stuff that should have never made it past the beta stage. I think their commitment to such a short release cycle is really hindering their ability to polish their distro. I don't see the point of 6 month to yearly releases if you can't maintain the quality of say a 2-year release cycle. The real world doesn't move that fast anyways, or is it that the Ubuntu team feels that pushing more and more shiny bling with every release will somehow convince users that they are not using a 3rd rate desktop operating system. Windows, for all its wacky inconsistencies seems like a finely cut and polished gem compared to gnome, what with X rendering your application with whatever developer's widget set of the day and the like. Sure everything is groovy if all your apps were coded to run against gnomes toolkit, but as soon as you get some god awful athena widgets going on, it just all falls apart. The linux community needs to pull their heads out of their self-riteous asses and start acting as some sort of collective versus the fragmentation that is going on, especially on the desktop. Maybe it will take a fork of linux itself to one day do that, the same way that ubuntu was essentially a fork of debian pushed to the masses. Until "linux" can offer a concise, well defined, consistent user interface across all applications, then I don't see it ever having any sort of chance as a mainstream desktop os.
Sorry about the rant. The whole stream of conscious into writing thing kind of gets to me sometimes.

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zosxavius photography

Thank You for Debian by samoht · 2010-08-16 03:50 · Score: 5, Informative

If you want to say thanks:

http://thank.debian.net/

Re:Thank You for Debian by Anonymous Coward · 2010-08-16 04:20 · Score: 1, Funny

I am rather disappointed that I can't burst the floaty balloons by clicking on them. ;)
Re:Thank You for Debian by Qzukk · 2010-08-16 04:35 · Score: 3, Funny

That was the first thing I tried when I loaded the page.

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If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.

Re:Let me know when Linux turns 20 by nschubach · 2010-08-16 04:00 · Score: 1

Sorry, I didn't see you posted half your thought in the Subject line.

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Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.

They grow up so fast by Anonymous Coward · 2010-08-16 04:02 · Score: 5, Funny

When did having birthday parties for software programs become all the rage? It's almost as disturbing as how so many of these programs are now teenagers. Here's some of the drama we'll be able to look forward to over the next year:

- Internet Explorer will get its driver's license and crash its first car, because everyone knows how unstable it is.
- Debian will join the Army rather than go to college, as mandated by the Debian Constitution. And because it has no friends.
- OS X will pick a fight with Firefox on the elementary school playground after Firefox steals on WebKit's lunch money.
- Windows will be that creepy adult chaperone that hangs around at, like, every high school dance because it wants to be cool.

Re:They grow up so fast by Haffner · 2010-08-16 04:23 · Score: 1

2 Birthday posts from Slashdot within a few hours... Is today really that slow?

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"Going to war without the French is like going deer hunting without your accordion." ~General Norman Schwarzkopf
Re:They grow up so fast by CAIMLAS · 2010-08-16 04:24 · Score: 1

Hey, hey, that's not it at all.
It's just that next year, Debian will be legal. :)

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~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Re:They grow up so fast by zbyg · 2010-08-16 04:29 · Score: 1

Internet Explorer will get its driver's license and crash its first car
And hopefully die
Re:They grow up so fast by dgatwood · 2010-08-16 04:46 · Score: 3, Funny

It's just that next year, Debian will be legal. :)
Yeah, and then we can share images of Debian all over the internet... no, wait....

--
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Re:They grow up so fast by AliasMarlowe · 2010-08-16 10:03 · Score: 2, Funny

It's just that next year, Debian will be legal. :)
Hey, I can't wait that long! Gotta fsck it fairly regularly...

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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire

Re:Almost by arkane1234 · 2010-08-16 04:15 · Score: 2, Funny

Better... Windows doesn't run Linux code right.

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Wrong about one of those by temojen · 2010-08-16 04:22 · Score: 4, Informative

Windows NT was first released in 1993, making it the same age as Debian. Before NT, windows was a user interface on top of DOS, not an OS on it's own (although it was doing VM as of 3.1 and networking as of 3.11, but not it's own filesystem management).

Re:Wrong about one of those by EvanED · 2010-08-16 05:08 · Score: 1

Windows NT beat Windows 95 to the market, so while you're correct that 95 was not just a shell sitting on top of DOS, it was also not pre-NT.

Comment removed by account_deleted · 2010-08-16 04:24 · Score: 5, Funny

Comment removed based on user account deletion

DFSG by vlm · 2010-08-16 04:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

The main advantage I got out of Debian rapidly approaching 15 years ago was the DFSG Debian Free Software Guidelines

http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines

That saved me from a mighty holy war being brewed up by the IT department. They tolerated it and left the engineering department alone, which worked pretty well.

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger

You mean Iceweasel? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-08-16 04:33 · Score: 2, Informative

It's at 3.0.6, and in stable (lenny).

http://packages.debian.net/lenny/iceweasel

HTH

Re:You mean Iceweasel? by TangoMargarine · 2010-08-16 13:01 · Score: 1

Which is still one "minor" (3.5) and one "minor minor" (3.6) release out-of-date...and 4.0 is already in beta.

--
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Re:You mean Iceweasel? by xSander · 2010-08-16 19:20 · Score: 1

Well, it's stable. What do you expect? Use testing or lenny-backports if you want 3.5.

Happy Birthday, Manifesto! by volkerdi · 2010-08-16 04:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

Anyone who was actually using Linux in 1993 knows the manifesto came a couple of years before anything else.

Google by phrostie · 2010-08-16 04:37 · Score: 5, Funny

What, and no custom page from Google?

I feel unloved.

Re:Google by Ant+P. · 2010-08-16 11:42 · Score: 1

Yeah, not even on google.com/linux...

Don't knock Ubuntu by rueger · 2010-08-16 04:37 · Score: 4, Interesting

I don't entirely get all of the Ubuntu complaints.

Over the years I tried maybe fifteen or twenty different Linux distros. (back to the days of buying boxed sets of Mandrake floppy disks!) Each time I went back to Windows because I invariably ran into some problem that I just didn't have the time to figure out and fix. You know, little things like printers, modems, and video.

It's not that I don't like fixing things, or even learning new stuff, just that with Linux it was always so damned painful.

Two months ago I installed Ubuntu using their little Windows installer app, and I haven't looked back. Aside from one occasion when a specific Windows program wouldn't run under WINE, I have had no reason to fire up Windows. And when I did.. well, yuck.

You may call Ubuntu "dumbed down", but it's honestly the first distro I've seen that worked flawlessly out of the box with virtually no fiddling.

And of course you can still fire up a terminal window and enjoy the command line.

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Three Squirrels

Re:Don't knock Ubuntu by bsDaemon · 2010-08-16 05:11 · Score: 2, Funny

I once had to patch the vfat file system driver in a development kernel so that I could save my History paper to disk and take it in to school because that was easier than getting my non-postscript printer to work. Screw printers.
Re:Don't knock Ubuntu by Abcd1234 · 2010-08-16 05:25 · Score: 5, Insightful

Simple: geeks like to justify their superiority complex.
No, really. I started off in the bad old Slackware days, and you couldn't help but feel hardcore when you got your damned printer to work after fiddling with lpd and magic filters. But guess what happens as you get a little older? You stop giving a shit about that stuff. You just want to get on with it, already. Suddenly tweaking and fiddling with config files in /etc doesn't feel hardcore, it feels really fucking boring.
So while the rest of us pick a distro that just works out of the box, and so is labeled "dumbed down" because we don't have to manually edit config files, the young geeks can go on showing off how awesome they are because they switched to Gentoo and get to fiddle with their compiler flags.
As an aside, I still think Debian kicks ass. But no one would ever claim its a polished desktop Linux distribution (it can certainly become one with a bit of effort, but I've gotten past enjoying that kind of effort)... for a server, though, it's peerless, IMHO.
Re:Don't knock Ubuntu by vlm · 2010-08-16 07:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

But guess what happens as you get a little older? You stop giving a shit about that stuff. You just want to get on with it, already. Suddenly tweaking and fiddling with config files in /etc doesn't feel hardcore, it feels really fucking boring.
You fix that problem at the start by by purchasing the correct hardware, not installing the correct distribution. I've been doing that since '93, its really quite easy.
Also in the past two decades or so I've noticed that the "stuff that only runs under windows" like winmodems, winprinters, winscanners, is generally, garbage and a complete waste of time under any OS, when compared to "standardized real stuff".
I was never able to buy and use a winmodem in the 90s, but I don't feel it was much of a loss.

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:Don't knock Ubuntu by Abcd1234 · 2010-08-16 07:46 · Score: 2, Insightful

You fix that problem at the start by by purchasing the correct hardware, not installing the correct distribution. I've been doing that since '93, its really quite easy.
Yeah, I've been attempting it since 94', and people like you have been claiming it's "really quite easy" for the last 16 years.
Obviously step 1 is "buy supported hardware". But for years, basic wifi didn't work out of the box in most Linux distros. That had absolutely nothing to do with driver support, and everything to do with the application stack either being insufficient to the task, and the distros doing a crappy job of integrating it properly (wifi before NetworkManager == hell on earth). Similarly, printer support used to be a sore spot, not because the drivers weren't available, but because the software made it an enormous pain in the ass to install them.
Distros like Ubuntu, focused on the user experience, finally polished this crap up (largely thanks to work by others, like RedHat (NetworkManager) and Apple (cups)), so now I don't have to manually fuck around with iwconfig or lpd in order to get a fully-functioning Linux desktop. And thank god for that, because, like I said, I'm *way* over finding that kind of thing fun/cool.
But, of course, the uber-geeks around here would have me believe that the distro I've chosen is "dumbed down" because, god forbid, I don't *have* to mess around with the bowels of my distro in order to get basic functionality to work. Which is weird, because it strikes me that it's far more dumb to waste time fiddling around with config files, when I could be getting real work done, instead...
Re:Don't knock Ubuntu by onefriedrice · 2010-08-16 07:50 · Score: 1

So while the rest of us pick a distro that just works out of the box, and so is labeled "dumbed down" because we don't have to manually edit config files, the young geeks can go on showing off how awesome they are because they switched to Gentoo and get to fiddle with their compiler flags.
Apparently Gentoo is a lot more misunderstood than Ubuntu. Of all those who use Gentoo, only a small fraction use it because they can compile everything with their own flags. Gentoo is just a simple distro for those who are already perfectly at home with a command-line, not because it makes them feel superior but because they can more easily work how they like to work. I don't doubt that there is a relatively small group of kids who don't really understand the command-line but try to use Gentoo because they've heard it makes you "133t," but that certainly does not describe the average Gentoo user.

On the other hand, Ubuntu seems to be quite well-understood, although a lot of people are getting defensive about it. The truth is Ubuntu is a dumbed down Debian, and that's not a bad thing. It's great for anybody who doesn't want to see a command-line at all and doesn't have need for a lot of fancy or special configuration. Being dumbed down also doesn't make Ubuntu a bad choice for power users who feel like their needs are met by the available configuration options and unique attributes that make Ubuntu what it is, because obviously the command-line is still there and easily accessible, but it's still a dumbed down distro; it's built with a lot of GUI wizards and preset configurations that most "noob" (not my word) users would like. Obviously that doesn't mean you're dumb if you use Ubuntu, but there's no getting around the fact that it is "dumbed down" Linux. I think all of this is generally and correctly understood about Ubuntu, but you seem to misunderstand Gentoo completely.

--
This author takes full ownership and responsibility for the unpopular opinions outlined above.
Re:Don't knock Ubuntu by Abcd1234 · 2010-08-16 07:50 · Score: 2, Informative

BTW, on CUPS, credit should actually go to Michael Sweet and Easy Software Products, who is the real progenitor of the product (though, like KHTML, Apple has done a good job of taking that project and building on the work of the original authors, who I hope are now very well off for their efforts).
Re:Don't knock Ubuntu by Abcd1234 · 2010-08-16 08:02 · Score: 3, Interesting

because obviously the command-line is still there and easily accessible, but it's still a dumbed down distro
Why on earth do you equate "accessible" with "dumbed down"? It's not like those configuration files magically vanish when you install Ubuntu. If you want to go hack config files, go nuts, it's basically Debian underneath (minus upstart, these days).
Truly I find this baffling. Apparently complex, difficult-to-use systems are good, but easy-to-use systems are "dumb"... funny, I would've thought the opposite, that any software which makes using the computer *harder than necessary* is dumb, as in poorly written. But no, inaccessibly complex software is good, and accessible software is bad.
It's just bizarre.
Re:Don't knock Ubuntu by myowntrueself · 2010-08-16 09:10 · Score: 1

I've been with Linux since about 1991/2, my first distribution was Soft Landings (SLS). I've built Linux From Scratch and worked with Gentoo. For the last 10 years I've been a Debian sysadmin.
Now I've reached a point where I'm never going to (want to) install another Debian system ever again and am trying to convince my employer to go with RHEL. Sure for a hobbyist Debian, Gentoo etc may be fine, or if you work somewhere that has an engineering team; but as sole sysadmin in a busy hosting and development environment you want support and to, in effect, outsource a lot of the engineering work.
Give me a 'polished distro' over 'unpolished' any time.

--
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
Re:Don't knock Ubuntu by onefriedrice · 2010-08-16 09:52 · Score: 1

because obviously the command-line is still there and easily accessible, but it's still a dumbed down distro
Why on earth do you equate "accessible" with "dumbed down"?
Why would you equate inaccessible with "dumbed down?" I never made the point that Ubuntu is less configurable, only that Ubuntu is geared toward users less familiar with UNIX and is therefore "dumbed down" (i.e. usable by "dummies"). You're reading this and assuming "dumbed down" necessarily means less capable, and that's not true so you've missed the point.

--
This author takes full ownership and responsibility for the unpopular opinions outlined above.
Re:Don't knock Ubuntu by drinkypoo · 2010-08-16 10:09 · Score: 1

e-peen waving time, I had a Sun 4/260 with a 20" trinitron and I sold it (for what I spent on it... $900) so that I could spend the money on getting into PCs. When I first got the Sun it was a 3/260 and I had to patch my libc to get DNS resolution. I wanted away from all that and I've been trying to get something easier ever since. A lot of people have suggested I go OSX but I won't for a whole variety of reasons which don't need redundant belaborment here. Suffice to say that Ubuntu, Compiz, and AWN on a 64 bit multicore PC with an nVidia card which will do VDPAU is a lot like happiness.
Debian is still my favorite server OS. I start with the tiniest version of the current stable Debian that I can get booting and networking, and then I start installing the servers I actually need along with anything recommended. This simple formula hasn't let me down yet. I might have a good time working my way from there to a fun to use desktop, but I'm pretty sure most of the people I know wouldn't.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Don't knock Ubuntu by Fri13 · 2010-08-16 10:20 · Score: 1

Wait...
You have tried different distros since last years... NOW you take Ubuntu and you prise it because it just happened to be your first choise TODAY?
I can not find anything special from Ubuntu, no matter how hard I try to find such... Like right now, I have openSUSE 11.3, Fedora 13, Ubuntu 10.4 and Mandriva 2010 Spring running in virtualbox, all the GNOME editions. Only thing what makes Ubuntu really different is it has own theme. Oh wait.... So does all of them! OpenSUSE even use own menu what is more "special" than what Ubuntu has.
I can install any mainstream Linux distribution to friends machine and she/he would find them such they will work with their computer without problems.
The REAL speciality what Ubuntu has, is the marketing "Ubuntu != Linux" and other propaganda and how Ubuntu sexy in the eyes of the media.
Re:Don't knock Ubuntu by Abcd1234 · 2010-08-16 11:10 · Score: 1

Why would you equate inaccessible with "dumbed down?"
I didn't. *You* seem to have equated "accessible" with "dumbed down" for reasons I can't seem to fathom.
You're reading this and assuming "dumbed down" necessarily means less capable, and that's not true so you've missed the point.
Then use a different adjective. Ask anyone you know and they'll tell you "dumbed down" is derogatory. If you don't mean to be derogatory, use a different phrase, that one's taken.

Re:Let me know when Linux turns 20 by Sulphur · 2010-08-16 04:48 · Score: 1

What software is twenty years old on 21 Dec 2012?

Re:In honor of by PaulWhoIsAGhost · 2010-08-16 04:48 · Score: 1

Don't you dare put your guys' worshippin' hut near that place where a crazy group of your guys killed a bunch of both our guys!

PS. Debian, seriously, you guys rock. by Abcd1234 · 2010-08-16 04:56 · Score: 5, Insightful

'course, I just realized my post makes it seem like I think Debian sucks.

Frankly, Debian kicks ass. For a server, I'd consider nothing else. I've long believed that apt is, hands down, the best package management system ever invented. And Debian has done a truly marvelous job of ensuring that upgrades Just Work... unlike Ubuntu or Redhat, I have never feared doing a full distro update on Debian. Their package quality is simply through the roof (well, minus that pesky sshd bug they introduced ;).

Heck, I should given Debian a try again. It's been a couple years since I made the leap to Ubuntu, and it may be that Debian unstable could now fill the roll that Ubuntu fills for me today (as a modern desktop distro)... particularly given how incredibly painful Ubuntu in-place upgrades can be. OTOH, I am spoiled by the fact that Ubuntu has the nVidia blob drivers incorporated into their software repo...

This from a debian user by SmallFurryCreature · 2010-08-16 05:10 · Score: 5, Funny

Men use Gentoo. REAL Men use Linux from scratch. REALLY REAL MEN, write their own OS.

Debian is for wussies. Ubuntu is for wussies who at least have the balls to admit they are wussies.

--

MMO Quests are like orgasms:

You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

Re:This from a debian user by meat37 · 2010-08-16 10:06 · Score: 1

Yes, and REALLY REALLY REAL MEN grow their own food. etc.
Re:This from a debian user by Fri13 · 2010-08-16 10:13 · Score: 1

And they are called as farmers....
Re:This from a debian user by AzP · 2010-08-16 23:03 · Score: 1

Men use Gentoo. REAL Men use Linux from scratch. REALLY REAL MEN, write their own OS.
Debian is for wussies. Ubuntu is for wussies who at least have the balls to admit they are wussies.
But what does women use? Not to mention REAL women?

Parallel to Godwin's Law by Ukab+the+Great · 2010-08-16 05:12 · Score: 1

As an online discussion decomposing the software stack of a linux distribution grows longer, the probability of RMS bursting in and saying "It's actually kind of sad that most people soley identify the GNU toolchain environment as 'Linux', which is just kernel." approaches 1.

Re:Parallel to Godwin's Law by Tetsujin · 2010-08-16 10:21 · Score: 1

As an online discussion decomposing the software stack of a linux distribution grows longer, the probability of RMS bursting in and saying "It's actually kind of sad that most people soley identify the GNU toolchain environment as 'Linux', which is just kernel." approaches 1.
And, you know, I can appreciate his point. GNU software forms huge chunks of the basic functionality of a typical Linux box. So some credit where credit's due does seem appropriate to me.
On the other hand - if he wanted to have GNU be the operating system (i.e. including kernel) he had his shot and he missed it. While the HURD folks were debating architectural issues, somebody went ahead and just wrote a damn kernel that works. :)

--
Bow-ties are cool.

If they consider that, they'll consider anything. by itomato · 2010-08-16 05:14 · Score: 2, Funny

MS would rather step over them all to where they estimate things will go rather than resign to being an late starting also-ran.

If those guys are all occupied with WebKit, it frees MS to do something bold.

Eh? Flip those.. by itomato · 2010-08-16 05:16 · Score: 2, Interesting

Mass audiences are incapable of finding appeal in Debian. ..for good reason.

What appeal could they find in a well organized toolbox, when all they really want is a shiny red hammer?

Re:PS. Debian, seriously, you guys rock. by ffreeloader · 2010-08-16 05:33 · Score: 3, Informative

To get the fglrx and nvidia proprietary drivers in Debian all you have to do is add "non-free" to the urls in your sources.list file. Those drivers have been available in non-free for far longer than you've been using Ubuntu.

You're knocking Debian for what amounts to your own ignorance.

--
"while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville

Re:Eh? Flip those.. by Abcd1234 · 2010-08-16 05:38 · Score: 1

What appeal could they find in a well organized toolbox, when all they really want is a shiny red hammer?

Hey, if using Debian makes you feel like your ePenis is a little bit bigger, more power to you.

Me, I've gotten over it. I was a Debian user for years after suffering through Slack and RedHat (if you've never installed Slack from floppies, you don't know pain...). Then I discovered Ubuntu. What? Suddenly things like networking and wireless just working without having to hack config files for hours? A modern package set? *And* apt-based package management? Since then, I've never looked back.

Well, okay, that's not true. Ubuntu has bungled the last couple upgrades to the point where I'm no longer willing to perform an in-place upgrade, which rather sucks... maybe its time to take another look at Debian unstable...

Re:PS. Debian, seriously, you guys rock. by Abcd1234 · 2010-08-16 05:40 · Score: 2, Informative

I'm not "knocking" Debian at all. Quit being a defensive jackass.

Thanks for the tip, when I was using Debian (which was a couple years ago), I had no need for non-free drivers, and it's unquestionable that Ubuntu integrates them into their system more directly. That said, adding another repo to apt is simple enough, so maybe it is time I test-drive unstable again (particularly since my laptop is now a few years old, and so driver support is no longer an issue).

Re: Incredibly painful Ubuntu upgrades by TaoPhoenix · 2010-08-16 05:45 · Score: 4, Insightful

This.

I just giggled at these comments, where everyone's saying "Ubuntu just works" ... except in upgrades. It's like a fancy haircut from a stylist that just works, except you can't duplicate it the following evening for your date.

Just updating things like Open Office and Firefox caused dependency clashes - sorry, that's totally unacceptable. I met my share of the version upgrade bugs too.

--
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine

Re:Eh? Flip those.. by AusIV · 2010-08-16 05:47 · Score: 2, Informative

Well, okay, that's not true. Ubuntu has bungled the last couple upgrades to the point where I'm no longer willing to perform an in-place upgrade,

Really? I've been an Ubuntu user for about five years now, and the last three or four releases are the only ones that haven't been bungled. I realize this is just my personal experience, but I was under the impression they were getting better.

Re:Eh? Flip those.. by Abcd1234 · 2010-08-16 05:49 · Score: 1

Well, maybe I'm just responding to unbalanced criticism. My experience upgrading (I think) 8.04 -> 8.10 wasn't exactly smooth, and I've heard no end of issues with subsequent upgrades. But, meh, who knows, maybe those are just vocal minorities... problem is, if there *are* issues, it's hard to unfuck a fucked system. :/

Re:Instability is a bald-ass slap in the face by ZosX · 2010-08-16 05:51 · Score: 1

I don't believe they do any testing. I think Ubuntu is content letting their users do the testing for them.

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zosxavius photography

Re:PS. Debian, seriously, you guys rock. by Albert+Sandberg · 2010-08-16 06:04 · Score: 1

Maybe you should try Windows again after all these years, I'm sure it had made progress too.

Na, not for me, I like free.

I like this way better... by fishexe · 2010-08-16 06:28 · Score: 1

...than that other birthday Slashdot's recognizing today.

--
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009

Re:PS. Debian, seriously, you guys rock. by marcosdumay · 2010-08-16 06:37 · Score: 1

Give stable a try, you won't regret it. Those days that stable was old as hell are gone.

--
Rethinking email

Re:PS. Debian, seriously, you guys rock. by marcosdumay · 2010-08-16 06:40 · Score: 1

They've beeing available, that is true. But they didn't use to work before Ubuntu. Nowadays the driver commes compiled and included at the kernel package, with the GLX dependency controlled by apt. Now it works.

--
Rethinking email

Re:You are like a rambling madman! by marcosdumay · 2010-08-16 06:56 · Score: 1

Did you search aptitude (or synaptic if you are on that kind of thing) for a driver or just Google? Google is a lousy source of software for Debian.

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Rethinking email

Debian is the distro I've used most often ... by scharkalvin · 2010-08-16 06:57 · Score: 1

I started out with Slackware and Redhat, then installed Debian Bo, Hamm, and on down till Sarge. For some reason I skipped Sarge and moved on to Gentoo. Part of the reason for that was that Gentoo had a kick ass AMD64 distro while Debian was still trying to figure out how best to do AMD64....
I came back to Debian with Etch about the time my Gentoo system melted down for the last time after an upgrade .....
Right now I'm running Linux Mint, but I can't stand Gnome and will probably install Mint KDE (finally available) or perhaps try Debian Testing, now that Squeeze is frozen.
I've used Ubuntu,and it's not bad, especially on older machines (P4, Duron, Celeron, etc). I don't think I could stomach anything that used RPM .....

Penis size? by itomato · 2010-08-16 07:16 · Score: 1

I should have put a premium on /maturity/ when comparing the two..

My mistake!

Re:Penis size? by Abcd1234 · 2010-08-16 07:56 · Score: 1

Yes, because it is truly the epitome of maturity to suggest that Ubuntu users are idiots who value a "shiny red hammer" over a "well organized toolbox"...
Re:Penis size? by itomato · 2010-08-16 16:30 · Score: 1

You're looking at a shiny red hammer when you get automagic wireless configuration, stuff that 'just works', and easy and relatively complete package management.
You're looking into a stocked toolbox when you have a need to recognize and capitalize on the full scope of those packages - not just the tool to address the majority of what needs to be done.

Re: Incredibly painful Ubuntu upgrades by Albatrosses · 2010-08-16 08:11 · Score: 2, Funny

My latest upgrade went along just fine.
[Four paragraph description of things that went wrong]

Wow, at first I thought you were being sarcastic, but... now I'm not so sure.

Re:Eh? Flip those.. by drinkypoo · 2010-08-16 09:58 · Score: 1

My desktop system is 64 bit, 3.2GHz, superscalar, NUMA, with 4GB of quite fast RAM and 250GB of disk in the box plus some chained off the back. I like to play games occasionally. It runs Ubuntu Lucid x64 with Compiz and many other foofy things.

I have a Dt168 (Geode LX 800) with 512MB RAM and 1GB flash disk. It runs Debian without X11.

The right tool for the right job.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Re: Incredibly painful Ubuntu upgrades by drinkypoo · 2010-08-16 10:03 · Score: 1

I just giggled at these comments, where everyone's saying "Ubuntu just works" ... except in upgrades. It's like a fancy haircut from a stylist that just works, except you can't duplicate it the following evening for your date.

I have had the same home folder since Dapper on x32 (I did nuke my .gnome2 folder from orbit once, intentionally) and have had the same install upgraded with the alternate CD since Feisty for x64, I originally ran it on a Gateway Gt5475E nForce2 nVidia GeForce 8600GT system and now it's on a selfbuilt Gigabyte GA-MA770UD3P v1.0/AMD Phenom II 720 X3 OC'd on air to 3.2 GHz w/Cooler master triple direct-contact heat pipe and Gigabyte/nVidia GT240 1GB running Lucid x64. I have upgraded the system through each interim revision. I have long used PPAs including my own (nothing in there worth mentioning now though, I'm all outdated... thankfully!)

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Debian FTW. Ubuntu, meh. by antdude · 2010-08-16 10:22 · Score: 1

I have had one Debian installation still kicking butt from 2005 on three different PCs (AMD and Intel too). It's amazing. I wonder how much longer before I need to wipe it clean to install from scratch (used its net-install in 2005).

Can Ubuntu do this? I have had problems with its dist-upgrades a few years ago, but not Debian's. :/

--
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).

Waiting for Debian to be legal. ;) by antdude · 2010-08-16 10:25 · Score: 1

One more year to be 18 years old... ;)

--
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).

Re:PS. Debian, seriously, you guys rock. by ffreeloader · 2010-08-16 12:02 · Score: 1

Using module-assistant makes the compilation and installation process point-and-click. It walks you right through the entire process as it downloads what it needs, then compiles and installs everything for you. I started using it soon after I first used Debian (I Linux for less than a year), and didn't find it difficult to learn. All I had to do was follow the directions.

--
"while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville

Whoa! by TangoMargarine · 2010-08-16 13:14 · Score: 2, Funny

So weird to hear "insensitive clod" used around here in a context where it's actually totally true...

--
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF

As a happy user, I must say: by Trogre · 2010-08-16 13:39 · Score: 1

Thank you Ian.

Sorry it didn't work out with Deb.

--
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife

Re:Eh? Flip those.. by Ginger+Unicorn · 2010-08-16 23:32 · Score: 1

It's just a crap shoot each time - everyone who encounters a problem says "this is the worst release ever" and everyone who doesn't proclaims it a work of perfection. Guess this is why the plural of anecdote is not data. Luckily I have enough chops to rectify upgrade problems when they occur, so it isn't an issue either way for me.

--
(1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons

Re:Eh? Flip those.. by Abcd1234 · 2010-08-17 01:51 · Score: 1

It's just a crap shoot each time

Fundamentally, I think that's my point... I have absolutely no confidence that I can upgrade an Ubuntu machine safely specifically *because* its a crapshoot. And so it's now simpler for me to actually re-install on a spare partition, test everything to make sure it works, and then migrate over when I'm confident, as then I don't end up spending hours trying to fix a broken system.

Luckily I have enough chops to rectify upgrade problems when they occur, so it isn't an issue either way for me.

Yeah, I've spent way too many years dicking around with semi-broken Linux machines to enjoy or even put up with that kind of crap anymore. It's just not worth the effort when I could be off doing something far more productive.

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