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NCsoft Sued For Making Lineage II 'Too Addictive'
An anonymous reader writes "South Korean MMO game publisher NCsoft is finding itself facing another lawsuit, this time for making games that are 'too addictive.' US Lineage II player Craig Smallwood is suing the publisher for $3 million because he found himself playing Lineage II for 20,000 hours over a period of 5 years. At times, his average play session would persist for over 11 hours, crippling his life and ability to function. A federal judge is allowing the court case to go forward (PDF), stating that the plaintiff has a claim for negligence and gross negligence against the publisher."
3142 comments?
Submission Summary: 36 pending, 879 rejected, 607 accepted (1522 total, 39.88% accepted)?
Yes, surely that is why I have no life! See you in court, Slashdot!
My work here is dung.
US Lineage II player Craig Smallwood is suing the publisher for $3 million because he found himself playing Lineage II for 20,000 hours over a period of 5 years.
The whole victim-mentality that runs rampant makes my blood boil: "He had bad parenting" "She wasn't potty trained properly" "The breweries make beer taste too good" "I have a disease" blah blah blah fucking excuses blah blah blah.
Hey Craig Smallwood, take responsibility for your actions; you're not a victim. In actuality your lawsuit paints you as a blatant parasite.
Trolling is a art,
That game's gotta be good!
I firmly believe that Craig Smallwood is an appropriately named man with no sense of personal responsibility.
That said, it will be interesting to see how this court case plays out considering there is NO QUESTION that the developers of these games intentionally try to make them as 'addictive' as possible. There are many studies in the industry meant to determine the appropriate level of payout (loot, level gains, etc) required to keep someone interested all the time.
I'm putting Atari on notice for Asteroids Deluxe and Namco for Xevious! I've wasted far too many hours of my younger days on those two games and I want my quarters back! Waaaaah!!1!
Plus, we should blow up the moon. Thank you.
This is the NSA, we're gonna geet U h@x0r5! Also, what is a h@x0r5?
The settlement should involve setting up programs like this. http://ve3d.ign.com/videos/70914/PC/Sid-Meiers-Civilization-V/Trailer/Civ-Anonymous-Trailer One more round...
Everyday You see me is the worst day of my life -Office Space
If he somehow wins this case, NCSoft should payout with the equivalent of $3,000,000 in in-game currency.
I've played lineage II. It's not that good.
Now for pure addiction... Something like grand theft auto series or even WoW might fit better.
But lineage? no way.
What kind of lawyer takes on a case like this?
I waste 2,000-3,000 hours *a year* working for my employer. I can't stop myself. I feel that, if I stop, my ability to function in society will end. I must be addicted to work.
Anyone have the number for a good lawyer? (hmm, is that an oxymoron?)
A federal judge is allowing the court case to go forward (PDF), stating that the plaintiff has a claim for negligence and gross negligence against the publisher.
So what the judge is saying is that if online gaming services don't regulate against lengthy usage of their services by adult citizens they may face lawsuits like this? Hopefully this sets a precedent that such a claim is a load of horse shit and should never be considered in a court of law again. Where does The "Science" of Game Addiction draw the line?
In America, you're suppose to have the freedom to do whatever you want with your time so long as it doesn't impair another person's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. This includes, for better or for worse, devoting as much time as you see fit to a game. It's called "responsibility" and I'd rather you accept it before the decision is made for you and you never had a choice to begin with (a la China's government regulations for online game play time).
My work here is dung.
NC Soft needs only to drastically increase the chance and amount of player gear to be dropped on the ground upon player death so that PvP gankers have a much higher chance of stealing other people's hard earned gear. I guarantee that within a month, player base will dwindle to a few hardcore PvPers cannibalizing each other while everyone else moves on to other MMORPGs. The problem of addicted Lineage players will be gone forever.
3142 times she walked past her bedroom window, with the curtains just open enough to show her in her lace underwear.
Flirty looks at you as you passed by on your way to the 7-11 for ramen. 0% returned.
Yes, you are the reason she had to hook up with that jock. She is sueing YOU for emotional traume and unsatisfied sexual desire of her self and her close female friends because YOU spend all that time on slashdot instead.
Pay up!
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Any who has been on hold forever needs to sue as well.
start with comcast and don't forget to add time waiting for the tech to come as well.
Can we hit up other vices as well? Booze and tobacco are obvious, but I can find pathologically addicted people for virtually any hobby.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
I mean, tobacco is ACTUALLY addictive and no one is suing them. Tons of other hobbies and activities are addictive, either mentally (sudoku) or chemically (jogging) and no one is suing puzzle designers or Nike. People don't like to take responsibility for their actions any more. We're all victims of someone else's evil. It's never actually our fault.
"The United States Government is finding itself facing another lawsuit, this time for having congressional meetings that are 'too addictive.' US C-Span watcher Annie Kaward is suing the government for $3 million because she found herself watching C-Span for 20,000 hours over a period of 5 years. At times, her average watch session would persist for over 11 hours, crippling her life and ability to function. A federal judge is allowing the court case to go forward, stating that the plaintiff has a claim for negligence and gross negligence against the government."
My first thought was "Hmm, I haven't played lineage, apparently I should."
With our country's "War" on drugs, we have a society which perpetuates the idea that addiction is the fault of the dealer. The drug war is socialism for cops and addicts, it takes money from the general population and uses it to "help" a small class of people who are prone to addiction or can't find employment except as a state thug. If drug addicts can get this socialist "help,"why not other addicts? If drug dealers are to blame for addiction, why not video game publishers?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Recently I read a story that featured an idiot judge. The judge actually allowed a lawsuit go through that claimed negligence for making a product too good. So my question is, how does a normal citizen go about getting a federal judge permanently removed from the bench?
I'm suing you for making your comments too entertaining!
I'm suing you for giving my addiction positive reinforcement and feedback! I also want the logs so I can see which moderators continue to mod me up so I can add defendants to my lawsuit! By the time I'm done sobbing in front of the jury, they'll believe I never had a choice to quit!
What the hell, did you just add me to your friend's list? Oh you better believe that's a lawsuit.
Oh. My. God. Did you see my achievements?! My lawyer's head just exploded.
My work here is dung.
20,000 hours over 5 years is 80 hours a week. Impressive. If we assume time and a half for overtime, that's 3 million for 25000 hours, or $120 an hour or ~$250,000 a year as a base salary. I don't know if that would be close to enough to make me put in hours like that, for 5 years straight.
Read through the court's order. I don't really see any serious flaws; personally I wouldn't have found that his claim for gross negligence should have survived a motion to dismiss, but it's an arguable point. He actually does make a claim for defamation, though I can't see the damages being that high.
So what the judge is saying is that if online gaming services don't regulate against lengthy usage of their services by adult citizens they may face lawsuits like this?
Where did anybody say something about regulation? What about just having a moderator/psychologist on stuff that has a little chat with those people that hang around for thousands of hours?
Seriously? Ok, lets break this down.
Said person is addicted to game. Why is he addicted? Presumably, because the game is fun (well, to him; I personally found it just "ok"). So, because the game possesses such a great deal of entertainment, he spends most of his waking hours with it.
Sounds like there's a bit of a disconnect. The idiot isn't addicted to the game, he's addicted to the departure from reality and responsibility... AKA, he's a child.
Ok, that's a bit harsh. There is such a thing as internet addiction, supposedly, and I'm sure it can extend to video game addiction, however, I would say that the problem is less so the game and more so the reason behind pursuing it: not finding regular life enjoyable enough to actually go through the motions.
My next question is this.. How in the hell could he AFFORD to play it that much? I mean, you've also got to be able to afford Cheetos and Code Red to fuel those... 11 ####ING HOUR GAMING SESSIONS? Jesus.
This guy has more problems than your average /.er.
"Better to be vulgar than non-existent" -Bev Henson
"At times, his average play session would persist for over 11 hours, crippling his life and ability to function."
Actually it's not "at times" it was all the time. 11 hours every single day for 5 years = 20,000 hours.
I skimmed NCSoft's defense pdf (linked in the Wired article) and it winds up that the guy in question was involved in real-money transfers and had all of his accounts banned from Lineage II in 2009.
Could that possibly be the REAL reason he's suing?
... at how some people think that they can not take responsibility for their own choices.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Since he quit and all, he probably won't be needing the account anymore.
Well, you change the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure so the pleading requirement is higher instead of blaming a judge for following the law.
FRCP rule 8
(a) Claims for Relief.
A pleading that states a claim for relief must contain:
(1) a short and plain statement of the grounds for the court’s jurisdiction, unless the court already has jurisdiction and the claim needs no new jurisdictional support;
(2) a short and plain statement of the claim showing that the pleader is entitled to relief; and
(3) a demand for the relief sought, which may include relief in the alternative or different types of relief.
2 does not mean you have to prove your case, it simply means that, if correct, you are entitled to relief. A judge usually cannot throw out a case simply for sounding stupid unless it sounds stupid because it makes nothing but legal conclusions and no claims (Gillespie v. Goodyear).
[sarcasm]I spent about 20,000 hours there over the last 5 years, and it is cripeling my social life.[/sarcasm]
Dude, if you want to stop playing the game, just start playing something else, like WoW, or Eve, or this thing called life....
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
The headline should read "NCSoft Sued For Having Money And Coming To The Attention Of A Liability Lawyer".
The "plaintiff" has already demonstrated a complete disregard for concepts of personal responsibility or a work ethic. This is the exact personality-type which engages in lawsuits like this, hoping to never have to work again (as if they'd ever worked before). And of course there are always lawyers with an equally-commendable outlook on life willing to collect 40% of an ill-gotten settlement.
If there was ever an archetype of why we need tort reform, this is it.
Everybody gets what the majority deserves.
To break down how much money he's suing for, not taking legal fees or tax into account:
3M$ for five years of playing 11 hours per day, 45% of his time.
600K$/year he's played lineage.
At 11 hours a day, every day, that's 150$ per hour.
If he "worked" for eight hours a day, five days a week, he'd be on about 288K$/year
A lineage 60 day gamecard is 30$. He got 660 hours out of that, effectively 4.5 cents per hour. He wants 150 dollars per hour, an increase of 3333 (point 33, repeating of course) times his expenditure.
Now just imagine if alcoholics or smokers tried to sue for that sort of increase. They'd be making the world rich list.
anything enjoyable is addictive
so the only way to comply with your complaint in order to protect from all future such lawsuits would be to destroy the potential for anything to be enjoyable that might be sold
what an awesome world that would be
in short, i hope that your wood is not so small that you still can't choke on it, you asshole
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
how does a normal citizen go about getting a federal judge permanently removed from the bench?
You don't. That is intentional.
There is a process in which the House of Representatives can impeach a Federal Judge, but an individual normal citizen is unlikely to force the House to a vote without some support. The Judicial system exists in this way so that powerful individuals cannot simply go and get a Judge fired if they feel wronged.
Selection and approval is a very detailed process, the possibility of a true buffoon making their way through is unlikely. Impeachment is a very serious process as well, it is not undertaken lightly.
All NCSoft's lawyer has to do is show up in court and say "cigarettes" over and over again.
Call me a cynic, but doesn't this reek of fabrication? Like NCSoft concocting this for use as a marketing ploy?
because the stuff he sold me has destroyed my life and I can't think of anything else but how to get the next hit.
The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck is the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -- Unknown
Not bad pay for that kind of work. Now to start filing my claims against every manufacturer of every game I've played.
So will be for being too addictive, some for being a waste of time.
I think we found that perpetually missing "..." step before "n. Profit!"
...for personal responsibility.
+1 Disagree
What you want to call "addictive" I call "fun." Games need to be fun, that's the reason I buy them. I wish to be entertained, I wish to enjoy my experience. Part of that can be a feeling of accomplishment via payouts in the game. This should be optimized to be the most fun, the most rewarding. If the game is deliberately made to discourage me from playing well, then, I won't. I'll go find another game.
Now will some people get addicted to that? Sure. However that shows that they have a problem, not the game. Some people can get addicted to ANYTHING. They need help, they need treatment. We do not need to eliminate anything fun because they might get addicted to it.
Watch out Blizzard...
I wonder if I can sue Valve for making CS:S to addictive.
If anything it's an obsession.
OMFG how does this shit even get processed?
Shouldn't it?
I'm going to sue!
Lets face it, if McD gets sued because people like their hamburgers so much they can't stop eating, everybody is a target. Just waiting for the first thief to claim the object he stole was simply to tempting.
On a more serious note, this is exactly what people who claim women cause rape by dressing to sexy are claiming AND have at times got away with.
Anything to get off facing the consequence of your own actions.
And I played Lineage II. It is not that good a game. And you got to wonder what the hell he was doing. These game have no real end-game worth speaking off and with 5 years of 11 hours play, my god he must have reached the end game hundreds of times and done what? What could POSSIBLY keep you playing a dumb grind game for SO long.
No, this guy is just a recluse, a lock-in. He could have been folding paper hats or read soccer scores. The game is not the problem, his own mind is. That is sad, but not NCSofts problem. Just as McD is not to blame if you never excersise and eat a hamburger each and every day.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
When you do the following google search:
craig smallwood honolulu
it becomes evident that Mr. Smallwood has plenty of time on his hands to file lawsuits. This seems to put the lie to his claim that he is unable to function.
Some appointments are for life. There is a way to to end that term at any point based on that criteria.
Did you mean legally?
as soon as forever has passed, then you can sue assume you can prove you ahve been on hold for the entire history of time.
Personally, I thin you should sue the 'Never Ending Story'
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Apparently it's not too addictive, since there are lots of people not playing it. All they have to do is show the list of names of people who started playing it and quit. as well as play times for those who stayed.
Obsessive Compulsive behavior does not mean that the vendor is at fault - now the may specifically try and get people like that to play it, but loads of people came and went.
Throw the suit out.
Sid Meier I'm gonna sue you. You stole vast portions of my life! See you in court you insensitive clod!
Now I'm sueing slashdot!
Yeah! And why doesn't Coors have a bunch of people on staff to go around to bars and hand out Antabuse?
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
So, requiring a business to keep a psychologist on staff to deal with customers who really like what you sell doesn't qualify as "regulation"?
Note also that if an in-game psychologist started bothering me when I was playing, I'd just /ignore him. and if that wasn't possible, I'd ignore him the old-fashioned way....;)
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
This lawsuit has shown me the light. Slashdotters should collectively sue DikuMUD founders and Lars "LPMud" Penjske for their 1990s MUD addictions...
On October 19, 2009, pro se Plaintiff Craig Smallwood (“Plaintiff”) filed a Complaint (“Complaint”) against NCSOFT. Although Plaintiff named only “NCSOFT” in the caption on his original complaint, two NCsoft entities have appeared in this action, Defendants NC Interactive Inc. and NCsoft Corporation, both of whom are named in the Second Amended Complaint (“Defendants”).
He's representing himself. I guess we can't blame a lawyer for this one ...
Here you go:
http://www.greatbeergreatresponsibility.com/AlcoholResponsibility.aspx
They aren't doing nothing.
In America, you're suppose to have the freedom to do whatever you want with your time so long as it doesn't impair another person's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
If that were true, pot would be legal.
Free Martian Whores!
Craig Smallwood....
ROFL
How much time have we wasted playing that game over and over. I bet I can blow his 20,000 hours in 5 year out of the water!
So, requiring a business to keep a psychologist on staff to deal with customers who really like what you sell doesn't qualify as "regulation"?
It is not regulation, just a way to avoid being found guilty of negligence. There might be other cheaper ways.
The problem here is simply that you have a person playing for 11 hours a day for five years and the company knows it and doesn't care, thats not responsible behavior, thats what I would call negligence.
Note also that if an in-game psychologist started bothering me when I was playing, I'd just /ignore him. and if that wasn't possible, I'd ignore him the old-fashioned way....;)
That would be a good sign for possible addiction and time to lock the account.
There are a few of us who know what you are going through. We meet up in my mom's basement. You are welcome to join us. There is soda and chips and wifi...
I am a v1ral sig. Plse c0py me and h3lp me spread. Thank y0u?
responsibility
I'm sorry, we don't want any of that. Slap a warning label on that box and say some bad things about MMOs on the evening news please. Who needs responsibility when you can shift blame onto someone else?
So what the judge is saying is that if online gaming services don't regulate against lengthy usage of their services by adult citizens they may face lawsuits like this?
Judge fortunately and unfortunately can't dismiss cases on a whim even if they think it is ridiculous. I don't think you should read it as anything more than that the judge found no legal basis to dismiss the claim at this stage.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
"I don't have enough self control and willpower to get off the computer and get my shit together. It must be the game developer's fault"
Typical idiot.
If not - why not?
I don't understand it. Why is it the video game's fault that someone has no self control? For that matter why is it the food, drink or drugs fault?
People need to let natural selection work and stop making everyone else pay for it.
Ave Molech Setting
You tell me what it is that makes a game addictive & we'll put less of that in.
What he's saying is, "I think this is worthy of an actual trial." That's it.
This isn't a bad thing. This case is so hilariously bad that he's likely to lose, and thus help build precedent for the inevitable future cases.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
The problem here is simply that you have a person playing for 11 hours a day for five years and the company knows it and doesn't care, thats not responsible behavior, thats what I would call negligence.
And if that is how I choose to live, why is that any of your business (or some company's, or the government's)? and why should it be?
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
If the plantiff can tear himself away from the game to make his court appearances, he proves the defense's case for them. If not, then the case is dropped. It's a win-win paradox masterminded by the judge!
And if that is how I choose to live,
You don't "chose" addiction.
why is that any of your business (or some company's, or the government's)?
Because the person is your customer? If you don't want to run into negligence issue you have to act responsible as a company, it is as easy as that. You selling a game that can be addicting for some people and then looking away and pretending the problem doesn't exist is not responsible behavior.
He has seen the general trend of society and given us a be-all end-all explaination for this insanity. This deserves a mod. My opinion: with freedom comes great responsibility. The second we start removing the responsibility part of peoples actions is the second we start removing our freedoms. Period. No "ifs" "ands" or "buts" about it.
was Craig Smallwood any good at the game?
http://www.acetonestudio.com
I'm not asking why I should be responsible for your behavior. I'm asking by what right do you interfere with my behavior?
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
I think I answered that already with "You don't "chose" addiction."
Anyway, the point never was that playing should be outlawed, the point was that companies should take care of their customers. If the customer would be totally fine with playing for so long, he wouldn't go out and sue (assuming of course his case is legit and not fraudulent).
NCSoft puts an hourly warning into all their games and has for the last 4 or 5 years or so saying "You've played for an hour, please log off and take a break"
And in California and Oregon, it is - at least at the State level for medical uses - it'll get real interesting if the proposition on the current California state ballot passes and makes it legal for even non-medicinal uses. The Federal government seems to still have issues, though.
First, you might possibly be correct about physical addiction, but psychological addiction is a choice. Take responsibility for your own life and let other people do the same. The only people who have any right to interfere with my behaviors are those who are directly affected by them (such as my wife). That certainly does not include a company that I give money to to be entertained. If a company were to tell me, "We think you might be spending too much time playing our game," I would immediately stop playing their game and start giving my entertainment dollars to someone else.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Wow. I heard about someone who died from not sleeping for a couple of days and that was a shocker but this! Its like me suing activision for making Tony hawks pro skater to frustrating which caused me to get aggressive and beat up my wife.. pfft. we all have a choice, and he made his OWN decision to play a game for 11 years :P
Get your Celtic knot necklace!
The judge is just following the law, in that the plaintiff has actually made a claim that can be brought to a suit. Whether the suit will be successful or not has not been decided.
What If I'm rich as hell and decide to retire and devote the rest of my life to playing mmorpgs. All I do is sleep, eat, and play games. Shouldn't that be my own decision?
Maybe he thought you were talking about the judge because there is no lawyer. The plaintiff is representing himself.
Don't throw rocks in glass houses, dude.
Isn't Lineage II exactly the same as every other Korean MMO, just with a different set of art assets?
I believe Online video games should be regulated to explain the problems that come with online gaming much like cigarettes provide a warning label. That is, they should force the user to read a Warning label that indicates scientifically researched issues that can arise from playing them. Addiction is a very real proponent of playing these type of games, after all. Most user simply don't believe that addiction is a problem when playing these games and that needs to change. Addiction can be defined as a partial loss of self-control which means that if high levels of addiction can be shown(20,000 hours? Holy shit!), and more than a handful of people can testify to similar addiction problems while playing, their could be great potential.
Who doesn't know someone who is addicted to WoW, someone who almost never leaves their house and plays constantly? I bet you could easily find people who know of these types of people. I have to do a survey this semester, I might just base it around this question. Online video game addiction is a real problem!
Also, while cigarettes promote a life-long addiction, video game addiction promotes a day to day time sink. Imagine if you knew someone who smoked non-stop for 10 hours a day? That's video game addiction. Maybe it doesn't last for 40 years and then kill you, but I bet the time lost to playing these games is similar to the years lost from an early death from lung cancer. Ridiculous!