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4chan Gives 90-Year-Old Vet a Great Birthday
Hugh Pickens writes "Members of 4chan aren't known for doing things that are cute and heart-warming and when they decide to go after someone, it's typically to subject them to ridicule. But not this time. Someone at 4chan decided that the Internet should get together and wish 90-year-old WWII veteran William J. Lashua a happy birthday, and soon Lashua's local branch of the American Legion was deluged by birthday calls from people as far away as Sweden. The account someone set up for Mr. Lashua's birthday on Facebook had 3,956 'likes' and over 500 comments, most of which wished him a happy birthday and thanked him for his military service. It's not clear how 4chan originally came across a photo of Lashua, but a member of the site posted a snapshot of a flyer that was on the bulletin board at a store in Ashburnham, Massachusetts asking for guests to attend the nonagenarian's birthday on at the American Legion hall and the post took off. In contrast to their usual behavior, 4chan members 'were giving him nice phone calls and sending him nice notes' and discouraging those who wanted to do something stupid or mean. 'They were all being.. well, shucks, awful nice.'"
He risked his life for your right to be an asshole.
Instead of wasting mod points on you, I'll just tell you:
It was for his BIRTHDAY. His birthday was yesterday, not on November 11.
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
As 4Chan would say; DIAF.
Thank you William J. Lashua.
Brought to you by the same people who love Caturday. Sometimes the Internet Hate Machine puts a yellow van back together.
April 1st so soon?
Reply to That ||
Reddit did it's part as well, example
Perhaps he was like my now deceased grandfather who didn't care for an annual reminder of having been involved in the island hopping of the US at the tender age of 17 nor the glorification and magnification of violence as the answer to world problems.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Hey young punk, at 90 years old, I would not be surprised if he could wip the ass of most of the people in 4chan, those guys were tough, just google "senior citizen breaks the neck of mugger". That guy was only 70, but the punk he was dealing with was a lot tougher than the 4chan guys.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
4chan being nice?!?
I do believe this was foretold in the bible as one of the signs of the end times.
REPENT!! THEN END IS NIGH!!
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
well, it evens out, the anonymous collective can't be dicks all the time
who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
While WWII might indeed evoke fairly bad memories in those who were actually there, Happy Birthday, and Thank You mr. Lashua.
I live in Italy and if it wasn't for people like you I'd probably speak German or Russian now, and concepts like individuality, freedom of speech, personal rights might be alien or completely twisted in my mind/society.
The power of 4chan and Anonymous is tremendous. It must be held carefully. This is one good example of how to put this power for good instead of evil.
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
As an oldfag over at 4chan, let me tell you this:
Anonymous does whatever he fucking feels like, whether it is sending an old man birthday cards or bullying a child. There is no rhyme or reason to it because Anonymous is a disorganized swarm made up of people of all ages and cultures. "Anonymous" is a constantly rotating, relatively small sample of a large, global population.
Trying to predict Anonymous is pointless. There is no command structure, no ultimate goal. Most of the activities partaken that affect the outside world start as pet projects of individuals and gain traction through spamming and samefagging (because everyone posts anonymously, it is easy to pretend to be multiple people to take advantage of the group mentality there).
This particular incident was started by someone close to the man in question and spammed endlessly over the course of several days leading up to the event. It was a shameless abuse of /b/ as his personal army, but it succeeded because it was relatively novel and interesting.
His name is Jack Vaughn.
He was a prize fighter, a diplomat, and the second Director of the Peace Corps.
Read a very interesting story about his life at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Vaughn
Happy Birthday, Jack, from RPCVs around the world.
Unless GP is German. Or Japanese. Or Italian. Or.... well you get the idea.
You fucking douchebag.
Hey, c'mon, be nice. Before saying something that might be hurtful, first ask yourself - WWFD*?
*What Would 4chan Do?
#DeleteChrome
This isn't going to be popular to point out, but citizens of each of the countries you mentioned has more freedom of speech and other rights as a direct result of people like William Lashua and the US military.
Qxe4
I thought this started out as a post on Reddit - not 4chan. But I could be wrong and certainly don't want to piss off 4chan.
And now, every time someone rightly says that 4chan is nothing but a batch of juvenile asshats, they'll trot out this one story as a counterexample.
Think about it... Have they attacked anyone who hasnt deserved it? Scientology, a loud mouth little girl, an animal abuser... They love kittens... and obviously people who risked their lives fighting the scourges who threatened freedom. I look forward to seeing what battles they wage in the future.
The event happened yesterday, there are pictures from it. You should have included a link to them: http://imgur.com/a/3Jc87/MP8VI
So like... what? Has 4chan become the Internet Love Machine now?
Some 4channers may have their tails between their legs, or wishing to bolster the reputation of the board as a whole.
While references are difficult given the nature of the 4chan board structure, my understanding is that from the recent "Puppy Thrower" video(the east european girl, not the US soldier of some time ago), several innocent people were outed wrongly, including a 13 yo german girl.
The dynamics from this sort of thing, would be similar to a political party rift. You get those that need to, in genuine good concience, act outside the party norm. I see this incident as related, I could be wrong.
In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
Question is, does he understand what just happened?
When the foot seeks the place of the head, the line is crossed. Know your place. Keep your place. Be a shoe.
Truth is rarely popular.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Douche bag is a douche.
The truth is uncouth when scrawled on the wall of a bathroom stall or a telephone booth.
He risked his life for your right to be an asshole.
And remember, a right not exercised is a right lost!
You know, those goofy fucks over at 4chan have always been pretty decent to me. Last year, they pitched in and bought me a nice box cake for my birthday.
They made me sign up for some weird sessions, though, where I have to hold these two tin cans connected by wire to a little meter. Supposedly it's going to get rid of some bad feelings or something from my brainpan. I didn't understand the mumbo jumbo because I'd drunk half-a-box of burgundy before going to the first session.
At least they said they were from 4chan.
You are welcome on my lawn.
4chan is just an Internet Amusement Machine. Anonymous does whatever amuses it.
Sometimes that involves posting pictures of dead cats or trolling 11-year old internet girls who show their boobs on tinychat (see Jessica Slaughter), sometimes that involves wishing an old man a happy birthday or organizing anti-Scientology protests.
I have personally seen Anonymous engage in some unusual behavior. For example, someone recently was asking Anonymous on /b/ to troll a high school kid because his Mom had just died and he was homosexual. Anonymous decided that would be a dick thing to do and decided that it would be more fun to troll the person making the request. Anonymous immediately set about trying ascertain the identity of the troll so that they could harass him.
Anonymous is unpredictable. There is no central organization and there are no rules. Anonymous just does whatever it thinks might be fun at the moment.
need a link, need an article. EPIC.
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
When even the high numbered slashdotters get laid - now that's when I drag the lawnchair out to a primary target and slather on the 3 million sunblock...
I know a most of the news stories that mention 4chan are generally in the negative, but people in that community do tend to do a lot of good, and much of it is rarely publicized. People attribute Anonymous to this large collection of like-minded individuals doing whatever they please but it's really couldn't be further from the truth. "Anonymous" is a loose many-minded collection of individuals who don't agree with each other. You'll get those trying to harass others and many stepping in to stop it, and you'll get those trying to do good and many stepping in trying to stop it.
I think you'll find pretty much all of Europe appreciates the US war effort, we consider them liberators. The countries of the Axis generally consider their part in WWII a dark chapter of their history. But some people bug me when they pretend the US valiantly and selflessly threw itself into battle for freedom and justice. The US only entered WWII after Pearl Harbor, it was forced into the war and it's all speculation what would have happened otherwise but it is far from certain the US would have come to our rescue. At the end of the war the allied forced rushed to take land just as much to not give it to the Soviet Union and communism as to liberate Europe. Certainly something we should be grateful for, but hardly selfless. Likewise when they speak of US losses, the US brought lots of military might that was crucial but it was Europeans doing most of the dying. Of course those people were dying for their country while the US forces were mostly dying for someone else's country, but it's also a bit like a person who lost his toes complaining to a guy who had to amputate both legs. But that beef is with all those that commentate in retrospect, full respect to each and every one of those who picked up a gun and went to fight for us. Each man has only one life and he put his on the line for us. A very happy 90th birthday to him.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
It's his fucking birthday.
"Brought tears to me eyes."
Seriously. HB, man.
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit
I take it this is a cover-your-ass "No, officer, I've been documenting" it?
Ask Pete Townsend how well that went.
Maybe this one.. but its old:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,253959,00.html (Linking to Faux news feels so odd)
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
You show him! I've had enough of Cold Pizza as well!
What TF is 4chan? Is this news?
I'm not an expert, but I play one on slashdot.
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have enjoyed it either. War sucks for everyone involved.
I'd still want to hug him to thank him for suffering through it. Didja ever think he might have found it exciting?
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit
This isn't going to be popular to point out, but surviving citizens of each of the countries you mentioned has more freedom of speech and other rights as a direct result of people like William Lashua and the US military.
FTFY
Let's not get off-track on what's being talked about. The GP was talking about Pre-war vs post-war. We won't discuss any kind of rights adjustments and such that have happened separate from that. Just to clarify though, if you are American, you have more rights now than you did in 1945 (the last year of the war). If you need them pointed out, you reallly need to re-examine that era.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Guy Fawkes should've put more research into the plan. Dammnit.
"... basement dwelling pedophiles ..."?!? Do you have issues?
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit
Let's be honest, it's all Moses' fault.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
It only seems nice until you realise that William J Lashua's family specifically asked that random strangers do NOT show up. It was an event reserved for family and friends, and the internets basically gatecrashed what was supposed to be an old man's birthday party.
Shh, nobody tell him about 12chan.
You fucking douchebag.
Hey, c'mon, be nice. Before saying something that might be hurtful, first ask yourself - WWFD*?
*What Would 4chan Do?
99.99% of the time What the guy before you posted IS what 4chan would do.
I don't know how old you are, but I currently have less freedom of speech and other rights than I did 30 years ago. And that's mostly on account of people born to William Lashua's generation and their misuse of the US military.
Ah, but you also forget that most of these people who have misused the military either "had other priorities" than serving their country and used their connections to get repeated deferments, claimed they had a boil on their asses that prevented them from serving, or got a cushy air force position and then went AWOL when even that was too hard.
Mr. Lashua's a hero and deserving of respect. Save your (justified, right, correct, and intelligent) scorn for the clowns screaming "Support Our Troops" while running the military into the ground.
I don't see how anyone could say we wouldn't have at least come to the aid of Britain, considering Americans were already dying coming to the aid of the Brits during the German first happy time which was a full year and a half before Pearl. One could also argue that the Battle of Britain may have gone far differently if America wasn't keeping Britain supplied.
And while I have no doubt that more Europeans died than Americans (after all they were on BOTH sides so it would be kind of hard not to) talking to my relatives who actually fought in WWII when I was a kid I can tell you what the Americans faced, especially on the western front as we pushed towards the Rhine, was a fucking horror show. Our tanks were rolling coffins compared to the Tigers, the Nazis had MG42 nests all over the damned place cutting our guys into hamburger, and according to my grandfather and great uncle, may they rest in peace, many guys didn't even get IDed because they used the FLAK-88 as an antipersonnel weapon, which turned anyone in the blast zone into a "red mist" where even their boots were blown to pieces.
So while I got nothing but respect for anybody that fought in that hell, you have to admit that there were times the Americans got the shitty end of the stick, like the US bombers doing the daylight raids while the Brits went at night. One thing both my grandfather and great uncle could agree on though, they were damned glad to have to face the Krauts over being with Uncle Jerry fighting Japs in the Pacific. Like they said at least they weren't dealing with Malaria and leeches as well as the enemy.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Talked to him about it 50 years after the war was over. First and last time he talked about some of that stuff. Whether I'd want to hug him for it is immaterial; he didn't want the reminder. At all.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
He risked his life for your right to be an asshole.
Wow! Well said.
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
Ferengi rule of acquisition #76 Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.
Well... it's worth pointing out that Roosevelt supported Britain as much as was politically possible through the lend / lease program with Britain. After WWI public opinion was loath to support "yet another" European war. In fact, I think it's fair to say Roosevelt was provoking an attack supporting Britain as he did.
Of course that's not to say the action was "selfless". Roosevelt understood, more than the public the importance of keeping Britain from being conquered. It is rare that any action in international relations is "selfless" (and when selfless acts are committed they are always minor and occasionally disasters), but the support the USA gave to Europe during WWII and the cold war is probably as close as you'll get.
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
The US only entered WWII after Pearl Harbor, it was forced into the war and it's all speculation what would have happened otherwise but it is far from certain the US would have come to our rescue.
Those who bitch about how the U.S. operates today had damn well better remember what you said above.
Many people in the U.S. prior to WW2 wanted the U.S. to remain neutral, keep to itself, mind its own business. Look what that led to. Now many people in other countries want the U.S. to keep to itself, mind its own business. Any guess as to what that would lead to?
My personal guess is that it wouldn't lead to anything good for very long, certainly nothing better that what we have now, and almost certainly result in something worse over the long term.
Literally a random act of kindness.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
If only his mother could have held on for two more months. I guess they don't make them like they used to.
Isn't it nice to know that his risk wasn't in vain?
Direct the 4chan Party Van to their driveway
That sounds like a reality TV show waiting to happen.
Throw in Buzz Aldrin and the moon hoax guy.
That is epic. (:
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
You make a lot of inane and ignorant ASSumptions here. The US also had a lot of money invested in Germany - ask IBM, because they were at the head of that list. Don't "Oh please" us - the world in 1942 was NOT the world we live in today, and the United States in 1942 was most certainly NOT the world we live in today. If you've read your history at all, you would know that the administration coordinated with the pentagon to MANEUVER us into that war. The losses at Pearl Harbor were preventable, but they were deemed "acceptable" because they would force the citizenry into accepting America's participation in the war. Oh, please, right back at you. Had the US cooperated with Germany, we could have been the third point of a power triangle for decades, even if we may have been less powerful than we were. World history would have been VASTLY different - starting with Iran, Iraq, and Israel. It's possible that you are unaware that the military/industrial machine that controls so much of American policy today ony came into existence during and after the world war - much of it in response to the communist threat. Had the Axis won, that communist threat would have been nonexistent!
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Sometimes, I hate your posts. Sometimes, I love 'em. This one is the latter category. My stepdad lied about his age, so that he could join the Seabees at age 15. He saw a little bit of the Pacific, until he was hit by shrapnel, and spent the last year of the war recuperating in the states. The old man turned 18 just after the war ended, and walked out of the hospital shortly after that. During those years, reality sucked, man. I also had an uncle who saw very little combat. He was a year older than my stepdad, but his Mama did everything she could to keep her son from joining the service. When he was old enough to LEGALLY enlist without Mama's approval, he signed up, went to Europe, saw a little bit of action, then participated in liberating one of the death camps. Remembering his stories, every time I hear the holocaust deniers running at the mouth, I just want to shoot them in the face. Yes, reality sucked in the 1930's and 1940's. Sometimes, I think we have things far to good these days. Few Americans have any concept just how ugly life can be.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
The summary is wrong. No one is a member of /b/.
I would have expected them to do anything but this. When 4chan gets all warm and fuzzy, then it's definitely a sign of impending armageddon. Cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria!
Your backwards smiley threw me for a loop there. Yes that is epic.
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
What, exploding party vans?
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Anon only attacks those who deserve it or when public ridicule is in order.
You've never been on 4chan, have you? They most certainly HAVE gone after people that didn't deserve it.
This guy did not need the handout, the poster was more or less a joke/notice to let the many people that do know him they should come to his party. The very fact he knows so many people was the reason for the notice, it was the most practical way to notify the large number of people he knows.
If the guy was a "lonely old man with no friends left", do you think he would book out a town hall to hold his party?
http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/d9zmp/dear_internet_on_behalf_of_the_lashua_family_i/
"He has 7 children, many grandchildren, and even great grandchildren. In his younger years he was a foster parent to dozens of foster children."
I can't help but think these donations and effort could have been directed to people more in need.
I.O.U One Sig.
Don't forget this, btw... The US did not declare war against Germany until Germany made such a declaration first, after the US declared war on Japan. Germany was not bound by the tri-partite pact to honor Japan's "de-facto" declaration of war (to wit, the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor), and it's quite possible that had Hitler not so declared that the US might have gone on to fight a one-front war against Japan only. I (and I don't believe I am alone in this) regard Germany's declaration of war against the US to be Hitler's first major blunder (not counting things before his rise to power, like the Beer Hall Putsch).
But his birthday isn't November 11...
The UK, as a whole, often gripes about the US coming into WWII late but there's no doubt the vast majority of us appreciate the sacrifices they made and the economic help that was extended to us and the rest of Europe afterwards. And to their credit the US does appear to be doing whatever they can do to make it into WWIII as early as possible.
I bet you're right handed, therefore not in your right mind. I can understand how it would have thrown you for said loop. (;
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
Not sure what movies you watch, but I was taught that WW2 was joint effort. No one country won or lost it, it took the combined effort of hundreds of millions of people in most of the countries on the planet to achieve victory. There's no I in Team, and I'm pretty sure that no-one in here was a direct participant, so lets not disrespect others by trivialising this into some sort of nationalist pissing contest.
This isn't going to be popular to point out, but citizens of each of the countries you mentioned has more freedom of speech and other rights as a direct result of people like William Lashua and the US military.
Yeah, and the US has its freedom thanks to the french...
There is nothing "random" about shooting holocaust deniers. Reading comprehension 101 - available at a community college near you!
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
He risked his life for your right to be an asshole.
So *that's* why 4chan is celebrating!
And in many aspects they have more freedem of speech and other rights than people in the US....
So you're saying that WWII veteran's only have birthdays on November 11? Do you only honour your mother on Mothers day? Your Father on Fathers day? Your kids (if you have any) on International Childrens day? If your house burnt down and your family was saved by a firefighter that ran into the flames, risking his (or her) life, would you only thank him on May 4th - International Firefighters Day.
Perhaps you're annoyed because there isn't an officially recognised "International Douchebag Day". (when is your birthday?)
dnuof eruc rof aixelsid
I think you'll find pretty much all of Europe appreciates the US war effort, we consider them liberators. The countries of the Axis generally consider their part in WWII a dark chapter of their history. But some people bug me when they pretend the US valiantly and selflessly threw itself into battle for freedom and justice. The US only entered WWII after Pearl Harbor, it was forced into the war and it's all speculation what would have happened otherwise but it is far from certain the US would have come to our rescue.
I think that it's very important to keep apart the U.S. (the country) motivation for its foreign policy and participation in WW2, and the effort of every individual American soldier who fought in that war. Politics may be dirty, but I very much doubt that Americans fighting on the ground and breaking open concentration camps really thought "we'd really leave these guys rot if Germans didn't attack us first, and we didn't have to hold back the Soviets". Maybe a few really did - you never know - but by default I'm going to assume that every person who served in that war, on his own, was truly a liberator.
By the way, the same goes for Soviets - Stalin's politics is one thing, soldiers on the ground is another.
Likewise when they speak of US losses, the US brought lots of military might that was crucial but it was Europeans doing most of the dying.
This one's interesting. If you look at military casualties for WW2, U.S. has 415k deaths, and actually ranks above any Allied European country except for the USSR and Yugoslavia. These are totals, but if you look by theater, then Americans have only lost ~100k dead fighting in the Pacific; so the remainder is mostly in Europe. Let's take that as 300k. Now the next European Allied country on the list, UK, lost 380k dead. Everyone else actually lags behind US losses in European theater alone. So the claim that "Europeans were doing most of the dying", while, perhaps, factually correct, is making a wrong point.
Which kinda makes sense when you remember the history of the war. The most massive losses on Allied side, by an extremely large margin, are the Soviets, because they bore the brunt of the war - the initial wearing out of German industry and manpower - and, ultimately, the victory in Europe. UK is high because it kept putting up the fight; US, because it intervened and kept going. Poland and France are also relatively high because they did put up some fight early on, and because they had significant military resistance to occupation afterwards. Yugoslavia is very high on the list mainly due to active guerrilla warfare against the occupying German forces (IIRC, the most active country in that regard of all occupied ones). Everyone else mostly just sat there waiting for the liberators after putting up some token resistance.
Many people in the U.S. prior to WW2 wanted the U.S. to remain neutral, keep to itself, mind its own business. Look what that led to. Now many people in other countries want the U.S. to keep to itself, mind its own business.
Many people in other countries want the U.S. to keep invading countries. In WW2, it was reversed - many people wanted the US to stop one country from invading the other countries. It's a perfectly sensible position so long as you take it for granted that invading countries (except in response to another invasion) is a bad thing regardless of who does it.
This isn't going to be popular to point out, but surviving citizens of each of the countries you mentioned has more freedom of speech and other rights as a direct result of people like William Lashua and the US military.
Yeah, that's a very good point, considering that about 3 million people own their very survival to a direct result of people like William Lashua (which is to say, all Allied soldiers).
he refers to nazi habits of firing to jews randomly. there are separate accounts of such scenes. If you however prefer shooting all deniers that's perfectly fine for his point.
As for denial, one victim is enough already. That settles it. Let them talk on the details as they want, they are details.
A society which makes you a culprit for giving your warped version of history instrad of the 99.99% likely warped official one is a fascist one. As long as you do not incite others to do crimes your speech oughta be free. In that regard your post is worse than holocaust denial.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
Well - that's one more rather liberal viewpoint. How about you take a look at the deniers? What are their aims, their goals? For the most part, they want to tear down the civilization that our fathers and grandfathers built. They side with Hitler and the Aryans. Yes, I want to shoot them. As for actually picking up a weapon and killing a denier - no, I won't. Not unless, and until, they actually organize and start working to overthrow our government in the name of some supposed racial superiority. Then, I'll shoot in self defense. Given the opportunity, they would kill off all my family for having polluted blood.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
I don't see how anyone could say we wouldn't have at least come to the aid of Britain, considering Americans were already dying coming to the aid of the Brits during the German first happy time which was a full year and a half before Pearl. One could also argue that the Battle of Britain may have gone far differently if America wasn't keeping Britain supplied.
Running supply lines is a whole different story than sending large military troops, if Britain's defenses had broken it is unlikely the US would have time to declare war and send enough troops across the Atlantic to repel them. And it's a different thing coming to the aid of someone holding their island compared to one with the back against the sea with a good chance of your troops ending up there too. Fortunately we don't need to find out...
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Tell him some other random stranger from /. said "Cut your hair and get a job, you hippie."
"Likewise when they speak of US losses, the US brought lots of military might that was crucial but it was Europeans doing most of the dying."
Actually, it was the Russians who did most of the dying. But other than that, fair point.
Sorry, I'm just honest and say what I feel. as for the deniers, I think the best thing we can do is slap them upside the head with the truth. My grandfather actually helped liberate one of the camps, not one of the famous ones but he said they were frankly ALL nightmares from hell, and I'll never forget those descriptions.
Bodies piled 5 and 6 deep, unable to tell male from female because they were all just skeletons, actually being told by their commanding officer NOT TO FEED THE VICTIMS because they had been starved for so damned long that the rich GI food would throw their systems into shock, and watching a man die from just that who managed to get some food from a GI. He said the whole thing was just like something out of a fucking horror movie and if he hadn't have been there he never would have believed humans could be such sick bastards. They made the German civilians in town march through there and get a good fucking look at what they were pretending didn't exist, and made them help bury the bodies. A couple of weeks after that he and a buddy were laying line and one of the rag tag German squads set off a mortar and dropped a wall on him. He spent a year in a full body cast and was actually shipped home in a cargo plane dangling like a piece of meat in a full cast. I had to give respect to anybody who could live through such hell and not come out bitter and jaded.
So sorry if I piss ya off, but at least you know da Hairyfeet is just being his honest Southern self, and not trolling or Karma whoring. i just call 'em as I see 'em.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
German soldiers fought for the wrong cause. They can still be acknowledged as fighting for their country in time of need, but that is solely up to their countrymen to do that. There is no reason why an American (for example) should acknowledge German soldiers fighting for Germany, especially when the latter was an enemy country.
That is all.
They are regrettable, but they aren't part of the "war effort" of the country which suffers them. So, when comparing the contribution various countries have made towards liberation and victory, it's a rather meaningless statistic.
He also attacked Russia while he was still fighting Britain. The only hope of success that would have had would have ben if Germany had dedicated everything to it AND persuaded the Japanese into attacking Russia from the other side.
Operation Barbarossa had no planned knock-out blow and no way to actually win. Even if they had taken Moscow (which a bit more effort, and a bit less meddling may have enabled), history suggests that the Russians would not have surrendered - by that point they were well advanced with moving most of their production behind the Urals and would probably have waited until the Germans were well stuck in to the Russian winter in Moscow before unleashing the Siberians to do what eventually happened in Stalingrad. So, as I said, the only hope for an axis victory would have been a Japenese invasion of the eastern end of Russia tying up the Siberians, and pushing them further west until they JUST had the Urals. Even then it's doubtful, given their record, that the Japenese could have done more than tie up Russian troops - they had various border skirmishes with the Russians in the years before the war and were roundly beaten.
In short, had Germany not had to try and keep Britain supressed (perhaps had Moussolini managed to fight in North Africa on his own - suppressing Britain by invading her may have tied up more troops in an army of occupation than the forces required to bottle her up), AND got the Japanese to invade the Rusians, AND had a four-leaf clover, rabbit's foot & lucky horseshoe, they MAY have been able to roll the Russians up, and dominate Europe, Asia and Africa. Then, they may have been able to subject the United States to war on two fronts, which would likely have got messy.
FGD 135
Yes, it does deserve to be acknowledged. Not as something praiseworthy, but as a warning. Blind obedience to the country's leaders from a well-trained military is a very dangerous thing and makes it easy for the leadership to commit atrocities. This is why officers now are taught not to follow illegal orders. Unfortunately, they are not taught this very well.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
In short, I can take care of myself
So, you're going to move to Somalia or some other country where you can put this belief into practice? Or are you going to sit smugly in the middle of a civilisation of a few hundred million people providing you with most of the infrastructure that you need to have an easy life and proudly proclaim that it's all your own work?
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
I think I remember reading in texts that the US fought on the European front long before pearl harbor.
Yes, you're thinking of World War I.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." - Bob Dylan
I think you'll find pretty much all of Europe appreciates the US war effort, we consider them liberators.
That may be true, but there is also more than a passing undercurrent of resentment in Europe toward the U.S. for the perceived delay prior to them entering the war, at least there is in the UK. I would imagine the same applies to other countries who resisted the Nazi war machine. Selfless or not, the U.S. allied with free Europe, when we needed them, for the good of ourselves, themselves and the free world.
As you say, any and all debate is irrelevant in the context of this discussion. This man has served his country and all free men. He deserves respect and a happy birthday. 4chan or not.
or reality porn
Balderdash!
I just started work as a nurses aide and this Old man named Mr. Benson used to be a pilot for ww2 He is old as dirt but strong as hell. Just today I was trying to get him to stand up so I could dress him and it took 3 of us to hold him up and this was with him half asleep never opening his eyes.
This isn't going to be popular to point out, but citizens of each of the countries you mentioned has more freedom of speech and other rights as a direct result of people like William Lashua and the US military.
How so? I don't know much about Germany or Japan, but Italy ruthlessly censors media ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Italy ). Italy has to be one of the most developed countries with the lowest amount of free speech.
Ebaumsworld did real good.
Fine, but troll? Off-topic, maybe, but trolling? If you honestly think your rights in American haven't been seriously degraded in the last 30 years, you're the one living under a bridge.
Don't post this anon. A post like this should be submitted under your name. Grow a set.
He wouldn't be a member of the American Legion if he had been an Axis soldier ....... now would he.
A bullet may have your name on it, but artillery is addressed to " Whom It May concern"
Actually, the numbers learn us that it's the Russians that did most of the dying
While true, from the German perspective, the western front was basically a vacation resort. Exhausted and demoralized platoons were used there because most of the strength was needed on the eastern front. Something like 75% of all German forces were concentrated there.
Football Odds
On a purely pedantic note, the UK did not fight WWII, the British Commonwealth did. In fact, it's not unreasonable to state that the British bankrupted the largest empire in world history on a point of principle - the invasion of Poland. Up until quite late in the war, Hitler believed that the British Commonwealth would fight with them against the communists.
The Commonwealth was introduced formally with the Treaty of Westminister in 1931 (although the Aussies asked to be specifically excluded, and thus were technically a self-governing colony until 1973)
So when measuring casualties, it's British Commonwealth forces that should really be measured. Newfoundland, Burma and India were directly controlled by the British Empire, so were included in the declaration of war
UK : 326,000
Newfoundland: 1,000
India: 87,000
Burma: 22,000
Total 426,000
The Australia, Canada and New Zealand were part of the commonwealth andreiterated the declaration of war (as they had control over their own foreign policy)
Australia: 39,800
New Zealand : 11,900
Canada : 45,300
Total 96,400
South Africa was also part of the commonwealth, but their prime minister refused the declaration which led to the immediate collapse of his government.
South Africa: 11,900
Total: 11, 900
Which means that there were 534,300 military casualties to the British Commonwealth. Which, incidentally, was fighting on at least four fronts - SouthEast Asia (where they frankly got hammered by the japanese in Burma and at Singapore), Eritrea, North Africa and Europe (both the north coast and the mediterranian coast).
It's also easy to forget about China. Those poor feckers had WWII start earlier on them, with the invasion of Manchuria in 1931, and the 2nd Sino-Chinese war starting in 1937 and merging with WWII. Such charming incidents as the Rape of Nanking happened during these times. There were over 5 million chinese military deaths.
Rational thought is the only true freedom
Likewise when they speak of US losses, the US brought lots of military might that was crucial but it was Europeans doing most of the dying.
This one's interesting. If you look at military casualties for WW2, U.S. has 415k deaths, and actually ranks above any Allied European country except for the USSR and Yugoslavia. These are totals, but if you look by theater, then Americans have only lost ~100k dead fighting in the Pacific; so the remainder is mostly in Europe. Let's take that as 300k. Now the next European Allied country on the list, UK, lost 380k dead. Everyone else actually lags behind US losses in European theater alone. So the claim that "Europeans were doing most of the dying", while, perhaps, factually correct, is making a wrong point.
Which kinda makes sense when you remember the history of the war. The most massive losses on Allied side, by an extremely large margin, are the Soviets, because they bore the brunt of the war - the initial wearing out of German industry and manpower - and, ultimately, the victory in Europe. UK is high because it kept putting up the fight; US, because it intervened and kept going. Poland and France are also relatively high because they did put up some fight early on, and because they had significant military resistance to occupation afterwards. Yugoslavia is very high on the list mainly due to active guerrilla warfare against the occupying German forces (IIRC, the most active country in that regard of all occupied ones). Everyone else mostly just sat there waiting for the liberators after putting up some token resistance.
The picture is nowhere near the same if you look at all casualties of the war. 0.5% of all deaths in WWII were American servicemen; 58% of all deaths in WWII were allied civilians, few of them American. I don't have a breakdown of those deaths handy, I'm sure the vast majority were likely Chinese and Russian. But a lot of them were western European civilians.
And how many russians please?
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
Does anyone else find the idea of 4chan doing something 'nice' to be completely TERRIFYING? I mean like, I get their usual shenanigans... But I can't even begin to wrap my head around this. I am scared shitless. Because who knows what they'll do next...
Friend: "The NIC is misconfigured..." Me: "No prob, I'll just telnet in and fix it." *Silence*
looks like he had a great birthday! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzqNkIkj3rE
Offering praise to 4chan for this is like cheering for a 14 year old kid who just figured out how to not shit in his pants.
Uh......have you ever read what life was like under Mussolini? They were killing people based on nothing but their race. I didn't say it was perfect now, certainly it's not, I just said it was better after the war.
Qxe4
Not to take anything away from the military, because force was justified in fighting WW2 (unlike pretty much all of the military force we've projected since then), but the freedoms that are enjoyed in those defeated countries has a lot more to do with what came *after* the war than the actual war itself. Specifically the Marshall Plan and the Keynesian/New Deal economic programs and progressive constitutions that we gave them.
Saying that it's "for the lulz" does not make a person deserve it.
Except when it says "Trust your technolust".
Hydraulic pizza oven!! Guided missile! Herring sandwich! Styrofoam! Jayne Mansfield! Aluminum siding! Borax!
The US only entered WWII after Pearl Harbor, it was forced into the war and it's all speculation what would have happened otherwise but it is far from certain the US would have come to our rescue.
To our credit we were supplying weapons and such to the British before we actually hopped in as a military power. Also, a lot of Americans were fighting along side the Canadians before the US decided to actually hop in, as well.
I agree though, presenting us as the "great white hope" is a bit much. When I was in high school I learned the the US bravely fought in WWII to defend the Jewish people from the Nazis. It was a nice thought, but sadly far far from the truth. Most Americans identified with the Nazis, and even held views similar (though maybe not as extreme) as their about racial an eugenic purity. The Japanese were an easier enemy to fight.
(Not to mention the fact that we gallantly fought in the Civil War to free slaves)
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
The point I was (vaguely) alluding to is that you can't give people freedoms; they need to make their own freedom. Italy is a mess financially(possibly worse than Greece), human-rights wise, and racially. Italians don't seem to care or even want to fix their problems.
It's great when the US defends people that can't defend themselves, but they don't do it to give non-Americans more freedoms ( and I don't think they should ). Trying to credit the US military for fostering freedom and rights in other countries is dangerous; in reality, they both hurt and help.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5101348,00.html (race)
http://www.businessinsider.com/european-debt-maturity-profile-2010-5 (debt)
So when measuring casualties, it's British Commonwealth forces that should really be measured.
It's a good point in general, but the original context was "mostly Europeans dying", remember? I don't think that it's reasonable to count Canadians, Aussies etc as Europeans.
Germany's declaration of war against the US to be Hitler's first major blunder.
Nah I dont think so.
I think a lot of people would say the decision to stop bombing fighter commands airflields and start bombing cities during the battle of britain was Hitlers first major mistake. Fighter command was at breaking point at that time, and could not have kept going much longer
under sustained attacks..
Yeah, every single one of them!
I am not devoid of humor.
I very much doubt that Americans fighting on the ground and breaking open concentration camps really thought "we'd really leave these guys rot if Germans didn't attack us first, and we didn't have to hold back the Soviets".
I'm not so sure. Of course, liberating the concentration camps would invoke feelings of anger and pity. But the majority of soldiers did not actively take part in that. For most, the war meant being shot at, half starved, fear of being gassed, risking life and limb day after day in appalling trench warfare conditions. 10 million of those Americans were conscripts who would rather not have been there. The predominant feeling before Pearl Harbor was that Americans did not want to get involved in another European war. This is not a dig at Americans - millions of Russians, Japanese and British were also conscripted. For many conscripts, a refusal to fight would have meant public ridicule, jail time or even death.
By the way, the same goes for Soviets - Stalin's politics is one thing, soldiers on the ground is another.
The same goes for most Germans, Japanese and everyone else. Most people don't want to leave their families and loved ones at home in order to go abroad and fight some horrible war. Some minority, sure, but the majority would much prefer peace. Remember the football match in no man's land on Christmas day 1915? Such a thing would not be possible if either side were the bloodthirsty monsters that they were portrayed as. I once saw a WWII decorated American war hero saying that he didn't hate the Japanese, because they were just doing their job as soldiers like everyone else. If someone who actually took part in the war can acknowledge such a thing, then maybe there is hope for the rest of us.
There is no reason why an American (for example) should acknowledge German soldiers fighting for Germany, especially when the latter was an enemy country.
If the aim were to accurately and truthfully recognise the actions of history, then an observer would acknowledge the actions of other humans without drawing the artificial distinction that one group happened to be born in a different nation to those of another group. If all else were considered equal, and the people of both groups were acting in the same way, and with the same motivations regardless of nationality, then nationality should not be considered a significant factor by an honest observer. Of course, this is not an ideal world, and often such an observer will be biased by their own concerns, particularly if this involves feelings of nationalism.
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilisation should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." - Albert Einstein
All men are brothers. It's a terrible tragedy that German soldiers fought and died for the wrong side. The world is worse off without them.
As for denial, one victim is enough already. That settles it. Let them talk on the details as they want, they are details.
Some Holocaust deniers argue that it happened at a much lower scale than commonly believed.
While a small number of murders still sucks, it's better than a large amount of murders. So discussing scale is important.
Yes, Holocaust denial is an interesting test of free speech.
Do anti-Holocaust-denial laws martyr such people (at least in their minds) as "OMG my free speech is being stifled"?
NB - I think denial's at least as nonsensical and illogical as other conspiracy theories, with higher gravitas
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
if he hadn't have been there he never would have believed humans could be such sick bastards.
maybe that helps fuel denial - mass murder in the millions is literally incomprehensible.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
> For the most part, they want to tear down the civilization that our fathers and grandfathers built. They side with Hitler and the Aryans
Citation needed. I am no expert, but the denialists' stuff I came across did focus on practical things, not political. Maybe it's an indirect way to attack Jewish people, but censorship against a possible indirect attack is even more fascist.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
I can go along with quibbling over numbers. No one can say for certain that there were 2 million, 4 million, or 6 million Jews killed - it MIGHT even be 8 million. If someone spends time researching, and chooses to believe the lowest credible numbers, and he decides that only 2.3 million Jews died, I'll disagree with him. No problem. I can disagree, and still respect him. It's the clowns who say that there WERE NO JEWS KILLED that I despise. There are plenty of neonazis and nazi apologists who claim that there was no holocaust. Those, I truly hate.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Actually - Germany probably could have won the war against Russia. I don't mean to belittle or to denigrate the efforts of the Russians - but the winter defeated Hitler as much as the Russians did. Countless German soldiers were marched into Russia, wearing summer uniforms, or uniforms fit for winters far to the south. The machinery and equipment weren't designed or maintained properly for operation in the Russian winter, either. Had Hitler properly equipped and dressed his men, and sent the proper machinery and equipment, history would be quite different. He may or may not have beaten Russia in the end, but the story would still be vastly different.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Good post, AC. In fact, there were some admirable people who fought for Germany. If anyone should be interested enough to read Erwin Rommel's biography, he is one such man. He was NOT a Nazi, and he refused to join the party. His sympathies were to his NATION, not to his government. Had he been politically minded, he would have been killed much sooner than he was.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br