Ballmer Promises Microsoft Tablet By Christmas

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Ballmer Promises Microsoft Tablet By Christmas

Posted by CmdrTaco on Tuesday October 5, 2010 @05:35AM from the also-i-want-pie dept.

judgecorp writes "Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer told an audience at the London School of Economics, that there will be tablets running Microsoft's Windows operating system available by Christmas. 'We as a company will need to cover all form factors,' he told an audience of students and press. 'You'll see slates with Windows on them – you'll see them this Christmas.' Mind you, if he's talking about the rumoured HP Windows 7 slate, he may not be so pleased when it appears. A recent YouTube video showed a supposed prototype which has been described as a 'trainwreck in the making.'"

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Well let's face it... by Hatta · 2010-10-05 05:36 · Score: 4, Funny

Coal is so old fashioned.

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1. Re:Well let's face it... by Ukab+the+Great · 2010-10-05 05:44 · Score: 1
  
  Windows 7 is Clean Coal. Get your coals straight.
2. Re:Well let's face it... by clang_jangle · 2010-10-05 05:54 · Score: 1
  
  There's no such thing as "clean coal".
  
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  Caveat Utilitor
3. Re:Well let's face it... by lotho+brandybuck · 2010-10-05 05:55 · Score: 1
  
  Hah, I read this "Cool is so old fashioned" Makes sense both ways.
4. Re:Well let's face it... by airfoobar · 2010-10-05 05:59 · Score: 1
  
  Fossilised coal is pretty clean. But Windows 7 is actually methane-based.
5. Re:Well let's face it... by freelunch · 2010-10-05 06:49 · Score: 1
  
  Coal is so old fashioned.
  Chair throwing is the new coal.
6. Re:Well let's face it... by noidentity · 2010-10-05 08:09 · Score: 1
  
  Maybe they had better delay this until January 2, so they don't have them all turning off in synchronous at midnight January 1.
7. Re:Well let's face it... by HermMunster · 2010-10-05 09:55 · Score: 1
  
  Ballmer is methane based. His statement is stupid and meant for untrained ears. Who cares if there will be a Win7 based tablet. By then there'll be 20 Android based tablets.
  
  --
  You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
8. Re:Well let's face it... by node+3 · 2010-10-05 12:15 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Who cares if there will be a Win7 based tablet. By then there'll be 20 Android based tablets.
  Or the wildly successful iPad which actually exists right now.
9. Re:Well let's face it... by wmac · 2010-10-05 14:48 · Score: 1
  
  I care because most of the software I already run is windows based. I prefer the same environment I use on my PC or laptop for my tablet. Why should I buy two series of software and deal with the problems of two OSes and compatibility issues of two different series of software?
10. Re:Well let's face it... by rtb61 · 2010-10-05 16:32 · Score: 1
  
  Beware of marketed success and the difference between units released into the retail chain versus the number of units actually sold, millions of units sitting in warehouse globally soon to be discount items do not in reality count but that's why PR=B$.
  I know zero people that own an iPad and I know at least that many who have an interest in buying one. The popular rage is Samsung android phones (the current bargain hotness).
  As for a M$ tablet, 'Uncle Fester' stop the delusions and start focusing on making money with MSN and not losing it. The real question is, how many people who do not already own an Apple computer and an iPhone and an iPod (all of them simultaneously) are actually buying an iPad and M$ ballmerdroids wake up to what market you are actually trying to target.
  
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11. Re:Well let's face it... by Bert64 · 2010-10-05 21:19 · Score: 1
  
  By contrast, i know several people who own iPads, and i frequently see total strangers using them on trains... When they first came out, the apple store near here was packed and there were queues of people lining up to buy one. This is far more success and public interest than any other tablet computer has ever had.
  As for an MS tablet, they need to get away from the "windows everywhere" idea and come up with a completely new OS (preferably one which is posix/unix based like everyone else's) for tablets, with its own interface and applications which are specifically designed for the tablet form factor.
  
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12. Re:Well let's face it... by node+3 · 2010-10-06 05:42 · Score: 1
  
  Beware of marketed success and the difference between units released into the retail chain versus the number of units actually sold, millions of units sitting in warehouse globally soon to be discount items do not in reality count but that's why PR=B$.
  Apple doesn't play numbers bullshit like you are implying here. They've sold millions of iPads to actual users, not just manufactured or shipped to stores. The iPad is the best selling non-phone consumer electronics item of all time.
  
  I know zero people that own an iPad and I know at least that many who have an interest in buying one.
  Well, that settles it then!
  
  The popular rage is Samsung android phones (the current bargain hotness).
  I wouldn't say "popular rage". You are right about Android in general being the "current bargain hotness". I'm quite certain that the ratio of people who buy Android devices because they specifically want Android to those that buy it because of price and carrier is significantly less than 1.
13. Re:Well let's face it... by node+3 · 2010-10-06 05:44 · Score: 1
  
  As for an MS tablet, they need to get away from the "windows everywhere" idea and come up with a completely new OS (preferably one which is posix/unix based like everyone else's) for tablets, with its own interface and applications which are specifically designed for the tablet form factor.
  This is extremely difficult to do. That's why MS pushes Windows so hard, it already exists.
14. Re:Well let's face it... by rtb61 · 2010-10-06 12:57 · Score: 1
  
  There of course is an art to Apple lying, take this for example http://www.macrumors.com/2010/09/17/analyst-suggests-tablet-cannibalization-responsible-for-shrinking-u-s-notebook-retail-sales/. The claim is iPad is hurting notebook sales, the graph certainly looks like it, hmm, but wait that is a sales "GROWTH" chart. So not the number of units sold but the percentage more units sold than in previous cycles.
  Quick thinking look at the graph, big drop in growth, oh yeah those two bargain months, with a huge jump in sales sucked up all the growth in the following months - hard plain reality. iPad sells, to people who one an apple computer and an iPhone and an iPod in that majority and the kind of customer they are means they went out and bought one at the earliest opportunity, so it reflects a peculiar market group not the overall market, like the Apple marketdroid PR=B$ suggests (so it is more interesting for psychologists to analyse that particularly marketing susceptible market that for the IT industry at large to base products on).
  
  --
  Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
15. Re:Well let's face it... by node+3 · 2010-10-06 14:59 · Score: 1
  
  There of course is an art to Apple lying
  Oh, so many problems with this one, where to even start.
  I suppose the most obvious place is the fact that your "example" didn't even come from Apple.
  Second, did you miss the negative growth for August?
  Third, even if sales growth hadn't gone negative, that doesn't mean the iPad isn't, in your own words, "hurting notebook sales".
  Fourth, iPads do not sell just to people with Macs and iPhones and iPods.
  And finally, the iPad is the most quickly adopted non-phone consumer electronics device ever. Your claim that its success is some sort of Apple fanboy aberration is rather bold, and without any facts to back it up, unlike the Morgan Stanley researcher who has actual, you know, numbers.
  Maybe I just misunderstood you, and what you meant was there's an art to lying about Apple, and your example is of doing that. Now that I think about it, that does make a lot more sense. Well done!
16. Re:Well let's face it... by Bert64 · 2010-10-10 22:24 · Score: 1
  
  Apple managed to do it with iOS...
  Palm managed to do it with WebOS..
  Blackberry are reinventing their OS to be based on QNX..
  Google managed it with Android.
  It can't really be all that difficult.
  Surely MS have sufficient resources to create something new, or atleast a proper touchscreen oriented interface on top of a half decent unix compatible kernel like everyone else seems to have managed.
  
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Once again.... by cyberkahn · 2010-10-05 05:39 · Score: 1, Interesting

Microsoft a few months late and over a billion dollars short.
1. Re:Once again.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-05 05:43 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  If by "a few months late" you mean "a decade ahead," then yes. Except for the billion dollars short part.
2. Re:Once again.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-05 05:44 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  It tickles me how Microsoft turned into a "me too" company. "Where do you want to go today?" is more like "Where were you a few six months ago?"
3. Re:Once again.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-05 05:47 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Late? To the tablet market? Does the tech world have severe amnesia or something? It was called Windows XP Tablet Edition and there were plenty of devices sold. Microsoft just didn't anticipate that people would prefer having horrifically hobbled environments that can only execute approved farting applications downloaded through official sources.
4. Re:Once again.... by gbjbaanb · 2010-10-05 05:49 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Microsoft a few months (years) late and a billion dollars short... and the market analysts noticing at long last
  Shares in Microsoft have already fallen 23% since April this year, with analysts concerned that the computer giant is failing to assert itself in the growing smart phone and tablet computer markets.
  Ballmer's just trying to prop the value of his share options up before they force him out.
5. Re:Once again.... by Goaway · 2010-10-05 05:49 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Microsoft is anything but late to this party. They have been trying to launch a tablet for over a decade now. They've tried again, and again, and again, and they have failed every single time.
  I've lost count of how many times they have tried, but it goes all the way back to Windows 95 for Pen Computing, or whatever it was called.
6. Re:Once again.... by binarylarry · 2010-10-05 05:49 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  "Where do you want to go today? ....wherever Apple and Google are of course!"
  
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7. Re:Once again.... by gstoddart · 2010-10-05 05:57 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  It tickles me how Microsoft turned into a "me too" company.
  I seems like Microsoft has always been a "me too" company.
  Where do you think "embrace, extend (and extinguish)" came from? Microsoft has always been late to the market with technology, and that technology usually takes a couple of iterations to become really usable. In some cases, the technology is becomes pretty good, in other cases it gets deprecated and thrown out because even they can't make it work.
  Now, some of their stuff has gotten mature and fairly usable, but some rots on the vine and is mostly an expensive transitional technology that people buy and get burned with.
  But, except for Clippy, I am hard pressed to think of many situations where Microsoft felt like it was innovating. Granted, some of that might have been behind the scenes in APIs the the like (eg .NET), but as an end-user, Microsoft has been rolling out features that Mac, UNIX (and now Linux) have all incorporated for a long time.
  I don't hate Microsoft in quite the knee-jerk way I used to, and I honestly find most of their modern products to be pretty damned god and stable ... but it's hard to really think they've ever led the way in consumer technology that makes me say "ooooh, I gotta get me some of that".
  For the last bunch of years, they mostly seem to be watching what others do, come late to the game and then throw resources at it until they get it right (Sharepoint) or throw it away (Zune).
  
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8. Re:Once again.... by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-05 06:00 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  For the last bunch of years, they mostly seem to be watching what others do, come late to the game and then throw resources at it until they get it right (Sharepoint) or throw it away (Zune).
  I don't anyone who administers Sharepoint will ever claim that MS "got it right." ;)
  
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9. Re:Once again.... by gstoddart · 2010-10-05 06:04 · Score: 1
  
  I don't anyone who administers Sharepoint will ever claim that MS "got it right." ;)
  No, but it has gone from being a technology demo that nobody knew what to do with to something that companies invest time and infrastructure dollars on.
  But, yes, you raise an excellent point. :-P
  
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10. Re:Once again.... by gander666 · 2010-10-05 06:04 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Ding, we have a winner. Microsoft has had ample entry points into this market, and frankly the sales and adoption have been pathetic.
  Don't get me wrong, people who have adopted them are satisfied with their pen computers, but the sales have been in the low 200K units per year out of the 40M laptops or so sold per year. A tiny fraction.
  Repackaging WinMo or Win7 into an iPad like form factor will not result in success
  
  --
  Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress ... but I repeat myself. - Mark T
11. Re:Once again.... by js3 · 2010-10-05 06:05 · Score: 1
  
  Still waiting on the mac version of directx
  
  --
  did you forget to take your meds?
12. Re:Once again.... by Iphtashu+Fitz · 2010-10-05 06:09 · Score: 1
  
  More like...
  "Where do you want to go today? Wherever Apple and Google were last month!"
13. Re:Once again.... by DdJ · 2010-10-05 06:11 · Score: 1
  
  But, except for Clippy, I am hard pressed to think of many situations where Microsoft felt like it was innovating.
  The "XNA Creator's Club" on the XBox 360 feels like innovation to me.
  They've got a "curated" platform (ie. very closed to normal end-users, just like the iPhone). They've managed to make a hobbyist dev kit for it that lets people tinker with their own XBoxes, do peer review of the software, and distribute that software to regular end-users (and get paid for it), without compromising the security/integrity of the curated platform, and without creating confusion by mixing hobbyist apps in with "pro" apps (conventional disk-based games, "XBLA" games, and "indy" games are three distinct marketplaces).
  Now, you may think the whole concept of "curated" platforms is bogus. But, lots of folks don't -- it's a way to make a computing device that you can put into the hands of a naïve end-user, and still end up with something relatively secure and supportable. A big downside is that innovation gets stifled, and Microsoft's innovation here is a way to mitigate exactly that downside.
  (If Kinect actually works, that could feel like innovation too. I haven't had the opportunity to try it yet, though. And then there's Surface, I guess.)
14. Re:Once again.... by AntEater · 2010-10-05 06:16 · Score: 1
  
  But, except for Clippy, I am hard pressed to think of many situations where Microsoft felt like it was innovating.
  Microsoft Bob?
  
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15. Re:Once again.... by ByOhTek · 2010-10-05 06:18 · Score: 1
  
  There are some nice examples of what MS has "done first" on the web, in terms of UI, compared to Mac at least. Though by far, MS is a follower not a leader, they don't always copy. And as you said, some of their copying gives much needed polish to an idea.
  
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16. Re:Once again.... by rjstanford · 2010-10-05 06:18 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Still waiting on the mac version of directx
  You mean OpenGL?
  
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17. Re:Once again.... by man_of_mr_e · 2010-10-05 06:20 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Microsoft has always been slow to adopt new technologies until they've been proven. They like to see other peoples mistakes and learn from them (though they don't always do so). As the saying goes, you can tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs.
  However, addressing the "trainwreck" article.. it's rather stupid comments...
  "Why include a “CTRL-ALT-DEL” button on the device’s chassis unless you expect the software to crash on a regular basis?"
  What century is he living in where c-a-d still reboots a computer? It's used for several tasks these days, like.. oh, i don't know.. LOGGING IN?
  "What’s with having a mechanical button to activate a virtual onscreen keyboard?"
  Maybe because onscreen buttons may be obscured by apps running?
  "but an unmodified version of Windows 7 on a small touch screen translates into icons roughly the size of theoretical particles"
  Obviously he's never used Windows 7 on a multi-touch screen. You can use multi-touch to pinch-zoom the icons to whatever size you want.
  That's what causes a "trainwreck in the making?" Stuff that he simply doesn't understand.
  
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18. Re:Once again.... by Bigbutt · 2010-10-05 06:20 · Score: 1
  
  Well, Clippy was originally from Microsoft Bob if that helps.
  [John]
  
  --
  Shit better not happen!
19. Re:Once again.... by WillAdams · 2010-10-05 06:22 · Score: 1
  
  No, before Windows 95, there was Windows for Pen Computing which was pen interface options for Windows 3.11 which was competing w/ Go Corp.'s PenPoint, the Moment &c.
  William
  (who had an NCR-3125 which would dual-boot into PenPoint and Windows)
  
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20. Re:Once again.... by gstoddart · 2010-10-05 06:23 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  The "XNA Creator's Club" on the XBox 360 feels like innovation to me.
  But the XBox is exactly what I am talking about when I mention throwing resources at it until it is relevant. The XBox cost them loads of money until it became profitable. Nobody else could afford to be "successful" the way Microsoft is since it takes billions of dollars to prop it up until it is viable.
  
  Now, you may think the whole concept of "curated" platforms is bogus.
  Actually, I don't. I completely get why it is easier to deliver a good user experience by putting up guard rails and foam padding.
  
  A big downside is that innovation gets stifled
  I'm not so sure ... I have seen more innovation and change in user interfaces from iPad apps than I have seen in the industry in 20+ years. It is the first time someone has fundamentally changed the way I interact with a computer.
  
  and Microsoft's innovation here is a way to mitigate exactly that downside.
  How? I assume by making sure that the dev kit forall of their platforms is consistent? Is doing things the same way you've always done them "innovating"? Don't get me wrong, it's probably a good thing that people can use the existing APIs -- but that isn't exactly going to drive new ways of doing things.
  
  If Kinect actually works, that could feel like innovation too. I haven't had the opportunity to try it yet, though. And then there's Surface, I guess.
  I assume Kinect is trying to build on what Nintendo built for the Wii? Again, not pioneering anything. It's taking an idea that is now several years old, and putting a little more horsepower behind it.
  And, it seems like Surface has been vaporware for a whole lot of years -- I rank it right up with that Microsoft Home of the Future or whatever it's called. It's a bunch of experimental tech that hasn't been ready for the consumer, and doesn't really seem to go anywhere. It's intriguing, but it doesn't seem to be tangible yet.
  
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21. Re:Once again.... by Capt.DrumkenBum · 2010-10-05 06:24 · Score: 1
  
  I can hardly wait for this to come out. (Don't flame me yet.)
  Once I get my hands on one used from Craigslist, and install Linux I will finally have the Linux tablet I have been dreaming of for years.
  
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22. Re:Once again.... by man_of_mr_e · 2010-10-05 06:26 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  Well, to be fair... Microsoft demo'd a lot of features in Longhorn back in 2002 that apple copied and was able to get to market with faster (due to Micorosoft's major screwups in developing Longhorn). Microsoft showed stuff like 3D Window managers with wobbly windows, instant search, etc.. long before they were in other products like Compiz/XGL or OSX.
  So in some ways, microsoft does innovate a great deal, but they're often slow to get practical products to market.
  
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23. Re:Once again.... by man_of_mr_e · 2010-10-05 06:27 · Score: 1
  
  Sharepoint has a lot of flaws to be sure, but it gets the basic concepts right and the processes, such as integrating with their office suite.
  
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24. Re:Once again.... by jimicus · 2010-10-05 06:30 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  That's largely because Apple understand something that Microsoft historically haven't.
  A UI that works on a desktop PC does not necessarily work on a handheld device, simply because most of the assumptions made on a desktop PC (large screen, keyboard and mouse control) are no longer true. This has to go beyond just the desktop UI - applications must also account for this.
  Hell, even Windows Mobile has historically not dealt with this terribly gracefully.
25. Re:Once again.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-05 06:30 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  I'm puzzled why this should be modded off-topic: Microsoft were indeed ahead in terms foreseeing the tablet PC over a decade ago, much like the smart phone. Though, like many projects from Microsoft in the last decade, the ultimate execution and follow-through leaves a lot to be desired. (They were not the only ones to see ahead but they did invest significantly early on.)
  
  I think corporate hubris has, in recent years, made Microsoft markedly ineffective at bringing true innovation to the marketplace, leaving it lurching from one me-too project to another, wasting vast amounts of money in a desperate attempt to find the next revenue stream to increase profits and ultimately satisfy shareholders.
26. Re:Once again.... by shutdown+-p+now · 2010-10-05 06:33 · Score: 1
  
  Administer? Bah, you really don't want to ask anyone who develops for SharePoint. I hear the average lifespan of a SharePoint developer is about 4 years before they cut their wrist with MSDN DVDs. ~
  All that said, most people who use it seem to like it.
27. Re:Once again.... by gstoddart · 2010-10-05 06:33 · Score: 1
  
  It's like a 40-year-old wearing a backwards hat and baggy britches.
  *laugh* And, sadly, the 40-year old still thinks (nay, knows) he's not that old and out of touch.
  While he knows he can't wear the latest fresh gear, he's been around pop culture long enough to actually remember more of it than these snot nosed kids who think they're the first people to bleach their hair or get something pierced.
  My generation grew up with tats and piercings and punk rock and all sorts of cool stuff. I can still want a long board, can't I?
  
  Quite sad and humourous at the same time.
  That's what my wife tells me.
  Now, get off my damned lawn you punk kids. I need to mow it. :-P
  
  --
  Lost at C:>. Found at C.
28. Re:Once again.... by man_of_mr_e · 2010-10-05 06:33 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, what microsoft is late to is the "affordable and usable" tablet market. Tablet PC's were great, but they had poor battery life and were horribly expensive. Origami devices were priced better, but they still had poor battery life (largely because there weren't any good low power touch displays of the right form factors at the time, they mostly used Auto industry GPS panels which were not energy efficient) and they used resistive touch sensitive displays which really performed poorly.
  Remember here, the iPad is less than a year old. It's relatively new, based on technology hardened by mobile phones to provide the capacitive displays for a cheap price.
  However, capacitive displays work poorly for many tablet uses because people want to use a stylus to draw with them, not their finger. It's been a trade-off. Also, the recent availability of higher performance, lower power CPU's has made this happen as well.
  Microsoft is late, in that they didn't recognize this market would take off until apple made it quite popular.
  
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29. Re:Once again.... by Lythrdskynrd · 2010-10-05 06:37 · Score: 1
  
  It tickles me how Microsoft turned into a "me too" company.
  There is some "conventional business wisdom" out there that says first mover advantage is a myth whereas "Fast Follower" is a really good place to be.
  http://steveblank.com/2010/10/04/why-pioneers-are-the-ones-with-the-arrows-in-their-backs/
  Goes into detail but the short version is, find something successful and copy it, means you don't have to spend a bundle on market research to find out what doesn't work. (Or something like that)
30. Re:Once again.... by gstoddart · 2010-10-05 06:39 · Score: 1
  
  So in some ways, microsoft does innovate a great deal, but they're often slow to get practical products to market.
  Fair point. But sometimes it seems like more evolutionary changes ... a 3D window manager is more of a function of eye candy and more graphics performance. It doesn't fundamentally change anything. (Truthfully, I don't ever see the 3D thing on my Vista box since I don't have a Windows keyboard, so it's not like it adds value to my life.)
  And, as you say, if it's 8 years or so before we see it, it is easy to forget that they might have showed off a demo of it first. Sometimes its more why you need to upgrade your hardware than any feature you can't live without.
  
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31. Re:Once again.... by DdJ · 2010-10-05 06:42 · Score: 1
  
  How? I assume by making sure that the dev kit forall of their platforms is consistent?
  Ah, you're missing the aspects of the XNA creator's club that I think are innovative. It has nothing to do with the toolkit, language, or APIs. It has to do with the SDLC, review process, and delivery mechanism.
  You tinker with your code on your XBox until it's in a state you are willing to distribute. Then, instead of going through the expensive and rigorous formal review process that an on-disk game or an XBLA game would go through, you submit it for peer review. Microsoft doesn't vet it, other developers do. They ensure that you're not being fraudulent, and that you're not breaking an explicit list of rules. If you pass all those filters, as determined by your peers, the app gets pushed through to the "indy games" marketplace.
  The addition of a "peer review indy marketplace" distinct from yet alongside a conventional "formal approval process" marketplace on a curated platform is the bit I think is innovative. I hope to hell that Apple shamelessly rips off the idea some day. I also hope Microsoft re-uses it on Windows Phone 7.
  
  I assume Kinect is trying to build on what Nintendo built for the Wii?
  Don't assume, check. That's what the Sony controller looks like to me, but not the Kinect. It uses multiple video cameras to build a stereo image of the playing space, identifies actors in it, and does skeletal mapping of their whole bodies. It does facial recognition. It does voice recognition. Watch some of the demo footage, or talk to someone who's played with it themselves. It's considerably closer to "Dream Park" than anything I've heard coming out of Sony or Nintendo.
  An example of what it can do that the others couldn't: I saw a demo of a physical fitness program using Kinect that was able to correct someone's Tai Chi posture. It was able to map the position of the shoulder, elbow, wrist, et cetera, and detect that the arm was off by a small angle, and highlighted the limb in red. As the limb moved into the correct position, the color shifted to green. That's not a simple no-brainer extension of what the WiiMote and Balance Board do, that's something else.
32. Re:Once again.... by Mongoose+Disciple · 2010-10-05 06:42 · Score: 1
  
  You mean OpenGL?
  No, I think he wanted something good.
  Oh, I'm going to karma hell, but it's true. OpenGL fell behind a long time ago and now its remedial class is trying to catch up by going slower than the normal kids.
33. Re:Once again.... by erac3rx · 2010-10-05 06:44 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  While the Xbox may seem to somewhat fit the 'throw money at it until it's relevant' idea you provide, Xbox Live on the other hand is innovative in many ways. It was innovative to include an ethernet plug on the original Xbox (ps2 offered this later, Dreamcast offered it as a separate $100 addon, etc), and then to have a network with gamertags and proper matchmaking. On the 360, Xbox Live is consistently ahead of the competition as well, offering in-game chat across games first, Live-only games for download with demos that always include the full version within them for a simple, in-game pay to unlock.. Etc.. Sony has been trying to catch up with PSN, but still doesn't offer some key features that Xbox Live provides, namely cross-game chat. For the most part, Sony has just been implementing whatever features of Xbox Live people seem to enjoy (trophies to replicate achievements, etc). They are also pushing the envelope with other services on Live... like Netflix support for Gold account holders and now the ESPN live functionality. They had TV episode and movie downloads prior to Sony, and Netflix long prior to Sony and Nintendo.
  
  So.. like it or not, Xbox Live is hugely innovative. Aside from Live, however... I completely agree with your argument. I used to work at Microsoft, and embrace+extend is definitely the name of the game. Their problem lately, in my opinion, is poor leadership. Steve Ballmer takes the 'me too' nature of the company too far, consistently looking to copy others that are making money even when Microsoft has no competency to beat that competitor. Bing is the perfect example... Microsoft continues to try to beat Google at search, when it's apparent to anyone that they won't ever accomplish that (and no one else will either). Lately they have at least realized that their massive cash cows in Windows and Office are what deserve the most attention, but the company still needs to do a better job (any job) of focusing on their competencies and delivering against those rather than simply trying to follow the money others are making.
34. Re:Once again.... by gstoddart · 2010-10-05 06:51 · Score: 1
  
  Ah, you're missing the aspects of the XNA creator's club that I think are innovative. It has nothing to do with the toolkit, language, or APIs. It has to do with the SDLC, review process, and delivery mechanism.
  Interesting ... having given up on gaming consoles years ago, this is the first I'm hearing of this. Interesting model, hopefully it works well and helps to create new things -- of course, they'll let the community innovate and then steal the best ideas. I'm sure there's even some IP indemnity allowing them to do so.
  
  Don't assume, check. That's what the Sony controller looks like to me, but not the Kinect. It uses multiple video cameras to build a stereo image of the playing space, identifies actors in it, and does skeletal mapping of their whole bodies. It does facial recognition. It does voice recognition. Watch some of the demo footage
  Again, it sounds like it is an improvement over the existing stuff. But, they've thrown a lot of resources at it, several years after Nintendo came out with a motion-based control system and Sony came out with that eEye or whatever it was.
  I don't doubt it has gotten good, but it still seems like an evolution of existing tech. Not saying that's a bad thing either, just that they're later to market, and wait until someone shows them what will be successful before they come to the table.
  Tech does (and should) get better with iterations. I'm just still not convinced that Microsoft "invents" new technology that people decide they need -- at least, not until after someone else has invented it and had some success with it.
  
  --
  Lost at C:>. Found at C.
35. Re:Once again.... by Bobfrankly1 · 2010-10-05 06:52 · Score: 1
  
  Still waiting on the mac version of directx
  Here you go...
36. Re:Once again.... by aristotle-dude · 2010-10-05 06:57 · Score: 1
  
  You mean OpenGL?
  No, I think he wanted something good.
  Oh, I'm going to karma hell, but it's true. OpenGL fell behind a long time ago and now its remedial class is trying to catch up by going slower than the normal kids.
  Interesting. I suppose you have not noticed that Steam uses OpenGL, that Left For Dead 2 just launched on Steam and that all of those iOS games on iPhones and iPads all use OpenGL ES?
  
  --
  Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
37. Re:Once again.... by gstoddart · 2010-10-05 07:02 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  While the Xbox may seem to somewhat fit the 'throw money at it until it's relevant' idea you provide, Xbox Live on the other hand is innovative in many ways.
  I guess as a non-gamer, I don't track these things. So they don't register for me. I don't doubt that they are pioneering the on-line parts of gaming, I'm just oblivious to them.
  
  It was innovative to include an ethernet plug on the original Xbox
  *laugh* Depends on your perspective -- I view it about as innovative as eventually adding TCP/IP to Windows. It seems like it was more inevitable than revolutionary. :-P
  But, maybe I'm just old and cynical about these things. ;-)
  
  --
  Lost at C:>. Found at C.
38. Re:Once again.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-05 07:03 · Score: 1, Informative
  
  Windows for pen computing goes back to Windows 3.0 days, 2 decades and counting....
39. Re:Once again.... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-05 07:05 · Score: 1, Informative
  
  Actually it's a Myth to claim that OpenGL is way slower than DirectX. In the past SGI has benchmark Microsoft how implentation of OpenGL agains early version of Direct X in the mid 90, making proof of the slow speed of OpenGL is not a design flaw but with the implementation. It's now well know that over time Microsoft has cripple OpenGL speed in Windows. Beside that... Comparing DirectX and OpenGL is like to compare an Nissan GT-R with an Jaguar. DirectX is a gaming API by all mean, OpenGL is a full graphic library with a full state machine created at the first place for CAD and High-end imagine system. So as for an system API, I much prefer OpenGL for running 3D software and every day apps other than a strict gaming platform.
40. Re:Once again.... by nexttech · 2010-10-05 07:13 · Score: 1
  
  Competing with Go, Momentum?
  
  More like ripped off Go with an inferior product. Once they killed Go they also killed Windows for Pen
41. Re:Once again.... by paiute · 2010-10-05 07:15 · Score: 1
  
  It tickles me how Microsoft turned into a "me too" company.
  There is some "conventional business wisdom" out there that says first mover advantage is a myth whereas "Fast Follower" is a really good place to be.
  http://steveblank.com/2010/10/04/why-pioneers-are-the-ones-with-the-arrows-in-their-backs/
  Goes into detail but the short version is, find something successful and copy it, means you don't have to spend a bundle on market research to find out what doesn't work. (Or something like that)
  It's the "second mouse gets the cheese" principle.
  
  --
  If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
42. Re:Once again.... by Mongoose+Disciple · 2010-10-05 07:16 · Score: 1
  
  Interesting. I suppose you have not noticed that Steam uses OpenGL,
  I'll let someone else defend that, since my experience with Steam (generally, that it's a steaming pile of crap) is not typical and isn't even representative of a sample of people that I know.
  that Left For Dead 2 just launched on Steam
  It's a game essentially written to run on the XBox 360. A game written to run on hardware over five years old is not a great argument for the state of the art. That's multiple generations ago in terms of computer hardware.
  and that all of those iOS games on iPhones and iPads all use OpenGL ES?
  Along the same lines, a phone and its stripped-down processing power (relative to a laptop, desktop, etc.) isn't a great argument for the state of the art.
  Maybe I should have been a little more clear: OpenGL fell behind DirectX badly around 2005, give or take. If you are dealing with something meant to run on hardware specs that didn't exist five years ago, OpenGL doesn't qualify as good. If you are writing for legacy processing power (which an iPhone is, even if it's a newer piece of hardware), it certainly can be good because it was, back in the day.
43. Re:Once again.... by ihatejobs · 2010-10-05 07:19 · Score: 1
  
  "Where were you a few six months ago?"
  Thank you for butchering the English language.
  
  --
  Can anyone tell me why 99% of /. users are total assclowns?
44. Re:Once again.... by mark72005 · 2010-10-05 07:22 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  What people failed to see was that a tablet should not be a old tech feature like a laptop with a rotating screen. A tablet is an entirely different device, a totally new market. Not a bolt-on feature set for an OS.
45. Re:Once again.... by garompeta · 2010-10-05 07:41 · Score: 1
  
  Microsoft is like Austin Powers trying to be cool in the 21st. century
46. Re:Once again.... by Da_Biz · 2010-10-05 07:59 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Foreseeing something and actually doing it are two very different things.
  Apple released the first version of the Newton almost two decades ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MessagePad
  Microsoft's PC operating systems divisions, with its internecine management wars, has managed to produce uninspired designs, solutions that have more security holes than a sieve, and has generally stagnated in the arena of innovation.
  Microsoft doesn't have a technology problem: they've got a cultural problem. Like Xerox PARC of the days of yore, Microsoft's Research division cranks out all manner of bankable ideas--yet their corporate patrons fail to see the need to actually implement these things to any serious degree.
47. Re:Once again.... by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-05 08:00 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Microsoft has always been slow to adopt new technologies until they've been proven. They like to see other peoples mistakes and learn from them (though they don't always do so). As the saying goes, you can tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs.
  Except for the fact that MS has been one of the pioneers in tablet computing since 2001. Despite having started about a decade ahead, they've never seen the success Apple has with the iPad. And MS has had multiple attempts at tablet computing. I would venture to guess that Apple has sold more iPads this year than MS has sold tablets all decade and the year isn't over yet.
  It's the same with Windows Mobile. Windows Mobile preceded the iPhone by a decade. MS laughed at Apple and said the iPhone would never get any marketshare only to see their own marketshare dwindle in the single digits thanks to Apple, Android, and RIM.
  In both cases, MS was the pioneer and got beaten by an upstart. It must burn Ballmer that this happened under his watch.
  
  What century is he living in where c-a-d still reboots a computer? It's used for several tasks these days, like.. oh, i don't know.. LOGGING IN?
  Depends on the paradigm. The problem is MS still regards everything as a computer whereas Apple, RIM, Android consider mobile devices as appliances. And the paradigm suggests appliances do not need to be rebooted unless there was something seriously wrong. Putting in a reboot button highlights the fact that the OS is not as stable as it should be. Also only in the Windows paradigm does logging in require the three finger salute. Other systems do not require the keystroke to log in and have other ways of handling it.
  
  Maybe because onscreen buttons may be obscured by apps running?
  If that's the case, the OS isn't designed well. Again what kind of device is it? Computer or appliance. Also why hasn't the applications and OS been designed not to overcome this problem.
  
  Obviously he's never used Windows 7 on a multi-touch screen. You can use multi-touch to pinch-zoom the icons to whatever size you want.
  I think the reviewer is referring to the fact that OS is not optimized to the screen for touch. For other devices you don't need to ever zoom on icons or buttons; they should be properly sized already. You do need to zoom for content like a web page or a document. This gives the impression that sizing and scaling are bolted on rather than built-in.
  
  That's what causes a "trainwreck in the making?" Stuff that he simply doesn't understand.
  The problem is that he's reviewing it as a normal consumer who won't tolerate these issues from a device whereas you're reviewing from a geek who expects it of a Windows computer. Most consumers barely tolerate computers and don't want another device that reminds them of their computer.
  
  --
  Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
48. Re:Once again.... by mitchellsoft · 2010-10-05 08:09 · Score: 1
  
  The problem for Microsoft now is that there are others out there with deep enough pockets to "embrace" before they can. The behemoth of Microsoft has become as slow as it's step-father, IBM. Funny ol' world, isn't it?
49. Re:Once again.... by Elektroschock · 2010-10-05 08:29 · Score: 1
  
  Exactly, this is not about making fancy technology, that is about making money. The only aspect that counts.
  If Google gets too annoyed by Microsoft they simply dump 200 Mio $ on Libreoffice and Microsoft would be done.
  Microsoft doesn't make much money, except with office and windows. Cut MS-office margins and the company collapses.
50. Re:Once again.... by Colonel+Korn · 2010-10-05 08:32 · Score: 1
  
  Interesting. I suppose you have not noticed that Steam uses OpenGL,
  I'll let someone else defend that, since my experience with Steam (generally, that it's a steaming pile of crap) is not typical and isn't even representative of a sample of people that I know.
  that Left For Dead 2 just launched on Steam
  It's a game essentially written to run on the XBox 360. A game written to run on hardware over five years old is not a great argument for the state of the art. That's multiple generations ago in terms of computer hardware.
  and that all of those iOS games on iPhones and iPads all use OpenGL ES?
  Along the same lines, a phone and its stripped-down processing power (relative to a laptop, desktop, etc.) isn't a great argument for the state of the art.
  Maybe I should have been a little more clear: OpenGL fell behind DirectX badly around 2005, give or take. If you are dealing with something meant to run on hardware specs that didn't exist five years ago, OpenGL doesn't qualify as good. If you are writing for legacy processing power (which an iPhone is, even if it's a newer piece of hardware), it certainly can be good because it was, back in the day.
  Remember that Anandtech showed that the Mac version runs at half the speed of the Windows version, too. But that's not unique to any particular game.
  
  --
  "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
51. Re:Once again.... by Jugalator · 2010-10-05 08:34 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Repackaging WinMo or Win7 into an iPad like form factor will not result in success
  This is a very good point. I've actually used Windows 7 on a tablet PC, yes, complete with touch screen. It's horrible!
  Imagine having to do window management on a device like that, stuff you don't even have to bother about on iOS or Android OS. Imagine an OS where lots of apps aren't designed for e.g. changed dpi settings (to at least be able to put your thumb on a maximize widget and not hit the restore widget!) and have their UI's crap out completely at that. Imagine how no text box in the OS will automatically pop up a virtual keyboard, and that the built-in Windows 7 virtual keyboard that's there consumes a third of the entire display on a 1024x600 touch screen. It's like how polished Windows XP 64-bit is for 64-bit apps. That's where Windows 7 is today, at best. They haven't even thought about how you're supposed to *use* Windows 7 as a touch OS yet, it's just a cobbled together mess of mouse interfaces, touch-oriented keyboards, small widgets, and API's for multi-touch features, for the 0.32% that use such devices on Windows 7. And they're already talking of a HP Slate this christmas. This will risk ending up a huge disappointment for HP.
  
  --
  Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
52. Re:Once again.... by bberens · 2010-10-05 08:52 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Yes, clearly the tablet market is is a bolt-on feature for a cell phone OS, only with limited cellular features. Microsoft tried to make a PC smaller, Apple made a cell phone bigger. Clearly Apple won but it's not as if one direction is obviously superior to the other from an objective viewpoint.
  
  --
  Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
53. Re:Once again.... by obarthelemy · 2010-10-05 08:53 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  MS got the marketing right, and the execution wrong, as usual. Wanting to shoehorn a desktop OS and hardware into a tablet yields horrendous results in terms of battery life, ergonomics, and looks. Leveraging Users' training, Apps name brand, file formats and OS design works up to the point where someone comes up with a brand new design tailored for tablets, and another one for phones ...
  
  --
  The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
54. Re:Once again.... by Svartalf · 2010-10-05 08:58 · Score: 1
  
  They've never brought innovation to the marketplace, unless you count "Bob".
  Everything they've done has been a well marketed clone of something else. Even Windows.
  That's not innovation.
  
  --
  I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
55. Re:Once again.... by Mongoose+Disciple · 2010-10-05 09:01 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Yes, when you deliberately break the standards and go your own way, you can consider that "done first", since everyone else is doing it the right way.
  ... unless it was during the several year period in which they were the only free-as-in-beer graphical web browser of consequence, in which case whatever they were doing was the real standard, and anything else claiming to be one was nerd masturbation.
  We have to be at least a little pragmatic.
56. Re:Once again.... by Mongoose+Disciple · 2010-10-05 09:11 · Score: 1
  
  But the XBox is exactly what I am talking about when I mention throwing resources at it until it is relevant. The XBox cost them loads of money until it became profitable. Nobody else could afford to be "successful" the way Microsoft is since it takes billions of dollars to prop it up until it is viable.
  I don't at all disagree that Microsoft attempts that model all the time, but in the console space specifically, who has tried to enter the console market in, say, the last 20+ years and not taken a loss on that business unit for a significant time to do so?
57. Re:Once again.... by Svartalf · 2010-10-05 09:12 · Score: 1
  
  Heh... You COULD come up with a capacitive screen stylus. In fact, some HAVE:
  The Dagi Corporation in Taiwan offers a range of them for varying capacitive touch devices.
  And TenOne offers the Pogo Stylus
  There's sure to be more than these two companies doing them- and they largely work with anything capacitive from what I understand (though with varying results...). This means you don't need to change a thing- just design it with the finger touch capability, audit one of the designs out there with your tablet, and then make your case and cosmetics on the stylus match up.
  So, they don't really work as poorly as you're implying. It's not so much a tradeoff because it's more that the vendors didn't want to bundle a stylus with the basic devices because people were bitching about losing the damned things. :-D
  
  --
  I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
58. Re:Once again.... by geminidomino · 2010-10-05 09:13 · Score: 1
  
  Repackaging WinMo or Win7 into an iPad like form factor will not result in success
  I can't speak for all others, but I and a few friends who've talked about it liked the idea of tablets, but they were too expensive. If they can meet (or even beat after Apple's fashion-tax) the iPad on price, that might actually make a difference.
59. Re:Once again.... by gtall · 2010-10-05 09:22 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  "Clearly Apple won but it's not as if one direction is obviously superior to the other from an objective viewpoint."
  I'm not sure about that. I would think a small screen is simply not going to lend itself to head-shrunken Windows. The size changes the paradigm, that's what Apple got but they didn't get it in a flash. It came because the way music is bought for iPods. Music, to Apple, is mere software. People seem to like a lot of choices as long as they are well organized. That's the problem with the Windows world, it isn't well organized. It's a polyglot that makes most owners scared to death they might have to upgrade their OS. Apple figured out it was the closed garden that makes owners feel safe from the horrors only an OS screwup can inflict.
  That said, Apple's machines are not for geeks who revel in a freewheeling environment because they know how to navigate it. Instead of a horror they see an interesting challenge. MS has corrupted that experience, Linux is attempting to give it back. But then Linux runs up against the mass market which doesn't care about computer challenges. So the trick for the Android devices will be to neuter the free-wheeling environment that scared the hell out of most people yet still allow for a geek-appeal to get under hood. The later will help encourage apps to be produced for it...as long as those apps don't reopen the box of horrors users do not want.
60. Re:Once again.... by aristotle-dude · 2010-10-05 09:23 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Well, to be fair... Microsoft demo'd a lot of features in Longhorn back in 2002 that apple copied and was able to get to market with faster (due to Micorosoft's major screwups in developing Longhorn). Microsoft showed stuff like 3D Window managers with wobbly windows, instant search, etc.. long before they were in other products like Compiz/XGL or OSX.
  I think you have your history a little screwed up. Apple released hardware accelerated version of their compositing rendering engine Quartz back in August 23, 2002 (10.2 Jaguar). Previous to that, they had software based Quartz in 10.0 and 10.1 and Quartz evolved out of Display Postscript on NextStep. Apple and Next had been working on search for a long time before that as well.
  The taskbar in Windows 95 and quick launch was stolen from the NextStep dock.
  
  --
  Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
61. Re:Once again.... by Altus · 2010-10-05 09:28 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I disagree.
  First off, calling iOS a "phone os" when its core is the same as that of Mac OS is showing that your not really thinking about the difference. The difference between the approaches has nothing to do with the core of the OS and everything to do with the displace and interface levels of the OS. That is where the difference is between iOS and Mac OS X and, in so much as OS X and Windows are similar, it is also the difference between iOS and Windows.
  So given that the basic difference is in the UI layer I think its pretty obvious why iOS is better suited to tablets than windows. Windows was designed for mouse interaction and iOS was designed ground up for touch interaction. From a design standpoint, there really is no doubt which tactic is better for designing an OS for a touch based device.
  Now that said, design isnt everything. Microsoft wanted full windows on their tablet so that they could leverage a large library of applications for the platform, even though those apps would not be easy to use with a touch interface. Apple managed to get the best of both worlds by releasing the iPhone first (the first phone that provided an easy way for people to build and, more importantly, market phone applications) and then was able to leverage those applications on the launch of the iPad. I suspect if the iPad had come first Apple would have faced an up hill battle trying to get developers and users on board at the same time.
  
  --
  "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
62. Re:Once again.... by Svartalf · 2010-10-05 09:29 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, they did. However, they're still LATE.
  There was PenPoint and Newton in that space at that point in time (and before them...)- and Microsoft's answer was expensive (even in comparison to the other two...) and was CLUMSY to use. It was done by bolting on a few extra functionalities that understood a digitizer pad on top of Windows 3.11 at the time and then later on Win95 and XP.
  
  --
  I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
63. Re:Once again.... by Johnno74 · 2010-10-05 09:31 · Score: 1
  
  And about it taking 25 seconds to boot? Well guess what, my itouch takes longer than that to boot. Iphones and ipads I've played with all take much longer than that to boot too.
  Seriously, WTF is it with people obsessing with boot times? If you need to reboot your computer/device more than once a week these days, then you are doing something wrong.
  Every laptop I've owned in the last 10 years has had the ability to last more than a week in "sleep" mode before the battery goes flat, and wakes almost instantly.
64. Re:Once again.... by DdJ · 2010-10-05 09:36 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Again, it sounds like it is an improvement over the existing stuff.
  Hm, not to me. Or do you consider the gesture support for modern capacitive multitouch systems to just be "an improvement over", say, Graffiti on a stylus-required pressure-sensitive single-touch screen? If so, okay, then you and I set the bar very differently.
  Multi-actor mo-cap without a special mo-cap suit, coupled with facial recognition, coupled with voice recognition... to me, it doesn't sound fair to dismiss that as a late-to-market incremental evolution of what Sony and Nintendo did. I mean, with one of these plugged in, you can be playing a movie on your XBox, and when the pizza guy rings the bell, you can just say "xbox, pause" out loud without hunting for the remote or controller. That's a bit more than a wiimote waggle game, or an EyeToy bubble-popping game, or an iSight "laser harp" toy. (In fact, I can't think of an existing mass-market gaming console, or any other living-room set-top box, with infrastructure for speakerphone-style no-headset voice commands.)
65. Re:Once again.... by mark72005 · 2010-10-05 09:59 · Score: 1
  
  Agree.
  
  iOS is not a phone OS. It's an OS that works well on phones as well as on other lightweight devices.
  
  Microsoft is behind the 8-ball, having next to no market share in the phone space and being several years behind in OS dev.
66. Re:Once again.... by gander666 · 2010-10-05 10:16 · Score: 1
  
  Good point, but fixing the price point will probably not lead to a 15 fold increase in volume (and thus a comparable commercial success). As many have commented, the base Windows OS doesn't translate to a gesture based computing environment. Stylus, yes, but that isn't for the masses.
  
  --
  Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress ... but I repeat myself. - Mark T
67. Re:Once again.... by shutdown+-p+now · 2010-10-05 10:37 · Score: 1
  
  It was understood. The problem was the approach taken - for some reason, it was assumed that the end-all-be-all of tablet interfaces was to be pen input, hence why "touch editions" of Windows have been centered around that concept (it's especially obvious in WinXP Tablet). Apple's tablet revolution was to do with responsive (capacitive) touch screens and UI built around that, rather than stylus.
68. Re:Once again.... by mattack2 · 2010-10-05 11:00 · Score: 1
  
  There was also GO Corporation, which Jerry Kaplan wrote about in "Startup". He sued Microsoft over GO's patents.
69. Re:Once again.... by SplashMyBandit · 2010-10-05 11:01 · Score: 1
  
  .NET (especially C#) is a clone of Java and the Java Virtual Machine (except limited to Windows-only). Some nice C# features have been added but mostly these have been ideas invented in more dynamic languages. This is business as usual as you point out elsewhere in your post.
70. Re:Once again.... by mattack2 · 2010-10-05 11:10 · Score: 1
  
  ...except the fact that you can do all of the same UNIX stuff on Mac OS X that you can on Linux. (I'm compiling in Terminal and reading my email with alpine, for example. I'm typing this in Safari, not links, though..)
71. Re:Once again.... by pclminion · 2010-10-05 11:38 · Score: 1
  
  So what you're saying is... Once one company makes a certain thing, nobody else should make anything similar because that's "not creative." In other words, all products should be monopolies. Great.
72. Re:Once again.... by mattack2 · 2010-10-05 11:52 · Score: 1
  
  We don't *need* to reboot our computers. We, or at least I, shut mine down every night to save power. I'm not going to use it remotely, so why waste power in sleep mode, even if it is a "tiny" bit of power?
73. Re:Once again.... by exomondo · 2010-10-05 12:11 · Score: 1
  
  Still waiting on the mac version of directx
  You mean OpenGL?
  No, OpenGL would be feature-comparable to Direct3D, not DirectX.
74. Re:Once again.... by ceoyoyo · 2010-10-05 12:17 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, Apple made a tablet OS run on a cell phone. So really, the smart phone as Apple sees it is a little tablet that can make phone calls.
  Makes more sense that way, hey?
  "Clearly Apple won but it's not as if one direction is obviously superior to the other from an objective viewpoint."
  Well, Apple's approach is so far one of the most successful products ever manufactured, and the other directions that have been taken have resulted mostly in flops and occasionally in a marginal product. It seems Apple's direction is obviously superior to at least the others that people have taken so far.
75. Re:Once again.... by node+3 · 2010-10-05 12:21 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  First off, calling iOS a "phone os" when its core is the same as that of Mac OS is showing that your not really thinking about the difference. The difference between the approaches has nothing to do with the core of the OS
  /contradiction
  It was pretty clear he said that calling iOS a "phone OS" misses the fact that the core of the OS is mostly the same as Mac OS X, but it's the interface that makes the difference.
  You know how I figured that out? Because I read the rest of the sentence you cut short. It continued:
  
  and everything to do with the displace and interface levels of the OS.
  You don't get to just chop people's sentences apart and pretend like they said something completely different.
76. Re:Once again.... by ceoyoyo · 2010-10-05 12:22 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  You don't have to imagine. Grab a free VNC app for an iPad and try it out for yourself. It's horrible. OS X on a tablet is pretty painful too.
77. Re:Once again.... by node+3 · 2010-10-05 12:23 · Score: 1
  
  Ahh, selective memory. I seem to recall my dad having a Windows tablet PC like a decade ago. Who's "me too", again?
  How many years after the demise of the Newton did your dad buy his Windows TabletPC?
78. Re:Once again.... by exomondo · 2010-10-05 12:33 · Score: 1
  
  DirectX was made by M$ to kill SGI and OpenGL all together. Everything as been settle when Microsoft bought Bungie 2 week after showing an OpenGL version of Halo at the Mac World keynotes.
  No it wasn't, DirectX and OpenGL aren't even comparable. DirectX was built as a way to directly interface with a range of hardware devices through windows as we did with DOS, but through a common interface. OpenGL does this for graphics hardware only, and at the time it wasn't very game-centric. It was certainly not an attempt to kill SGI, it was to create something that didn't already exist.
79. Re:Once again.... by gosand · 2010-10-05 12:58 · Score: 1
  
  Microsoft is anything but late to this party. They have been trying to launch a tablet for over a decade now. They've tried again, and again, and again, and they have failed every single time.
  I've lost count of how many times they have tried, but it goes all the way back to Windows 95 for Pen Computing, or whatever it was called.
  And someone fat fingered an email along the way, said "we need to get this damn table product OUT THE DOOR" and a couple of years later, we have the Surface.
  
  --
  
  My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
80. Re:Once again.... by Low+Ranked+Craig · 2010-10-05 13:07 · Score: 1
  
  It's OK Steve, we'll have some new chairs to you directly...
  
  --
  I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
81. Re:Once again.... by carljosephsmith · 2010-10-05 13:11 · Score: 1
  
  Microsoft Bob, that was innovative if nothing else.
82. Re:Once again.... by Archangel+Michael · 2010-10-05 13:28 · Score: 1
  
  What is the common definition of insanity?
  Repeating the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.
  As long as Microsoft is trying to shoehorn Windows anything onto a touch device, it is doomed to fail. Windows was not designed for a touch device, except possibly as an after thought. Microsoft can't stop thinking they are a "Windows" company.
  
  --
  Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
83. Re:Once again.... by sootman · 2010-10-05 14:17 · Score: 1
  
  > Microsoft is anything but late to this party.
  I think he meant Microsoft is late to the "doing it right" party. MS will probable push something like this, where the mouse is visible until it's totally done booting. Great work like always, guys.
  
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  Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
84. Re:Once again.... by exomondo · 2010-10-05 14:22 · Score: 1
  
  The XBox cost them loads of money until it became profitable.
  That's how EVERY console is, it costs loads of money initially and makes a profit in the long term.
  
  I assume Kinect is trying to build on what Nintendo built for the Wii? Again, not pioneering anything.
  No, it's as close to the Wii as apple's iphone is to nokia's old 3210.
85. Re:Once again.... by drinkypoo · 2010-10-05 15:16 · Score: 1
  
  What people failed to see was that a tablet should not be a old tech feature like a laptop with a rotating screen. A tablet is an entirely different device, a totally new market. Not a bolt-on feature set for an OS.
  iOS is just a mangled version of OSX. It's got some features ripped out and others bolted on but it's OSX underneath. The iPad is the first wildly successful tablet device. I think you should reconsider your statement.
  
  --
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86. Re:Once again.... by exomondo · 2010-10-05 15:49 · Score: 1
  
  *laugh* Depends on your perspective -- I view it about as innovative as eventually adding TCP/IP to Windows. It seems like it was more inevitable than revolutionary. :-P
  I agree, but for some reason in the world we live in things such as 'making it a bit bigger' can be termed 'revolutionary' and 'magical'.
87. Re:Once again.... by antek9 · 2010-10-05 16:16 · Score: 1
  
  Even if you couldn't imagine this, as you say, the Playstation Eye camera has a rather capable microphone array built in, which is capable enough for what you described. Some games, take Singstar for example, have had voice commands for some time now (I think, two years or something), it's just that Sony doesn't value that feature highly enough to make them put it into the firmware, and use it system wide.
  
  I don't long for it, either, by the way. I mean, who wants to have a feature that enables their spouse to shout: "xbox, force shutdown!" across the room whenever they are disgruntled about something? Or all the inadvertent voice commands the system tries to execute whenever you are having a ball with some friends? On a more serious note: contrary to Wiimote 2.0 (or whatever it's called), and Playstation Move, Kinect doesn't seem to live up to its specifications, or rather, people's expectations. Lag is still massive, the system can't track more than two players at the same time (expect disruptions whenever party people crowd up around the players, and while you're at it: strip the cameras' field of vision of any distractions like sofas, bookshelves, rotating fans, and the like!), it's by far the most expensive motion control system of all the consoles because you'll have to buy the whole set and can't scale it up over time, like with Move.
  
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88. Re:Once again.... by man_of_mr_e · 2010-10-05 18:20 · Score: 1
  
  Those are a bit like trying to write a letter with a pencil eraser sized pencil point. The capacitive nature of the screen requires a large enough connection point and that's not anywhere near as fine as a stylus.
  
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89. Re:Once again.... by man_of_mr_e · 2010-10-05 18:25 · Score: 1
  
  Most people wouldn't. It's only if you're connected to a Windows domain network that becomes a requirement (Part of that whole Common Criteria secure attention sequence bit).
  However, it's also used for features things like locking your display, and accessing the task manager.
  
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90. Re:Once again.... by Bert64 · 2010-10-05 21:23 · Score: 1
  
  OSX yes, but not iOS (which is what runs on their tablet) unless you jailbreak it.
  
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91. Re:Once again.... by Bert64 · 2010-10-05 21:28 · Score: 1
  
  A clone that was well marketed, but also generally inferior to its competition.
  But not just marketing, also using their weight in other areas to force people onto their products, and then using that same strategy to keep the users locked in there.
  They've never had to compete in an open market (IBM handed them their first monopoly with dos) and really have no idea how to, any market which is sufficiently far away from windows to avoid their lock-in strategies and they have immense trouble gaining a foothold, often wasting huge amounts of money to do so.
  
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92. Re:Once again.... by Bert64 · 2010-10-05 21:41 · Score: 1
  
  Only, MS have already spent a bundle to find out that forcing a desktop interface onto a tablet doesn't work... While Apple have proved that an interface actually designed for touchscreen interaction can be successful on a tablet.
  And yet here they are again, trying to make another tablet running a desktop os.
  
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93. Re:Once again.... by Bert64 · 2010-10-05 21:55 · Score: 1
  
  Downloading the full game as a demo and then having to pay to unlock it is not innovative, software has been distributed this way for years.. Also it wastes your bandwidth if you don't want the whole game.
  And didn't services like gamespy provide chat, tags and matchmaking? All MS did was integrate that service into a console. On the other hand they made the service proprietary and dependent on their servers, so that once they turn the servers off you can no longer play (by contrast, quake always had server binaries you could run yourself and is now open source, people actually still play the first version of quake, infact people even still play doom).
  As for them relying on windows and office, their method of retaining those cash cows is by locking people in, not by offering a compelling product that people will choose on a level playing field. This strategy just hurts everyone else.
  
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94. Re:Once again.... by ByOhTek · 2010-10-06 00:44 · Score: 1
  
  And that has nothing to do with it.
  MS had the Quicklaunch and task bar. Apple took these, merged them, added some polish and got the Dock. I think CDE had a Quicklaunch equivalent first.
  In folder displays, MS had document info displays/panes before Apple. Same thing with the location bar. Apple later copied those.
  It's small stuff like that, but in some cases, quite useful stuff.
  About half of these I remember seeing in some *NIX before Windows, but there's still some good examples.
  http://www.infoworld.com/d/windows/top-10-features-apple-stole-windows-966
  
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  Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
95. Re:Once again.... by master_p · 2010-10-06 02:04 · Score: 1
  
  The taskbar in Windows 95 and quick launch was stolen from the NextStep dock.
  The NextStep dock was stolen from the Risc O/S.
96. Re:Once again.... by master_p · 2010-10-06 02:16 · Score: 1
  
  Imagine having to do window management on a device like that, stuff you don't even have to bother about on iOS or Android OS.
  You don't have to do window management if you work with maximized windows.
  
  Imagine an OS where lots of apps aren't designed for e.g. changed dpi settings (to at least be able to put your thumb on a maximize widget and not hit the restore widget!)
  The size of the maximize/minimize/restore buttons is independent of the DPI. You can set it to whatever you like by changing the size of the window caption.
  
  Imagine how no text box in the OS will automatically pop up a virtual keyboard
  It can be done on Windows, there are various events that can be used for that: textbox focus, caret creation/transfer etc. It's only when an app uses very low level methods to handle textbox focus and caret redraw that this will not work, but you can't blame Windows on that.
  
  and that the built-in Windows 7 virtual keyboard that's there consumes a third of the entire display on a 1024x600 touch screen.
  Microsoft can make it smaller, if they find the current size is unusable.
  
  That's where Windows 7 is today, at best. They haven't even thought about how you're supposed to *use* Windows 7 as a touch OS yet, it's just a cobbled together mess of mouse interfaces, touch-oriented keyboards, small widgets, and API's for multi-touch features
  Fud, fud, and more fud. Windows 7 can easily be operated as a pad operating system, because a pad has a large screen.
  Personally, I'd prefer a Windows 7 pad over an iPad any day.
97. Re:Once again.... by aristotle-dude · 2010-10-06 03:33 · Score: 1
  
  Interesting. I suppose you have not noticed that Steam uses OpenGL,
  I'll let someone else defend that, since my experience with Steam (generally, that it's a steaming pile of crap) is not typical and isn't even representative of a sample of people that I know.
  that Left For Dead 2 just launched on Steam
  It's a game essentially written to run on the XBox 360. A game written to run on hardware over five years old is not a great argument for the state of the art. That's multiple generations ago in terms of computer hardware.
  and that all of those iOS games on iPhones and iPads all use OpenGL ES?
  Along the same lines, a phone and its stripped-down processing power (relative to a laptop, desktop, etc.) isn't a great argument for the state of the art.
  It is useless to talk to you since you don't even seem to understand the difference between "DESKTOP" platforms and mobile platforms. A laptop is a mobile "DESKTOP" while a tablet running "ARM" processors is a mobile platform. Each platform type has different form factors and different performance scales. Per watt, the ARM based products like the iPhone and iPad offer more performance than your typical gaming rig which is why Epic games has been able to demo their Unreal Engine 3 at 1024X768 at fast frames per second on an iPad.
  http://www.epicgames.com/technology/epic-citadel
  Once you understand what you are talking about instead of spouting MSFT talking points then you can get back to us.
  
  --
  Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
98. Re:Once again.... by aristotle-dude · 2010-10-06 03:39 · Score: 1
  
  The taskbar in Windows 95 and quick launch was stolen from the NextStep dock.
  The NextStep dock was stolen from the Risc O/S.
  If you look at the timeline on that site, RISC O/S came out much later than a bunch of other GUIs so I really don't see your point. NeXTStep popularize a number of concepts which later made it into windows and MSFT development tools. Interface builder was ahead of it's time.
  
  --
  Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
99. Re:Once again.... by Mongoose+Disciple · 2010-10-06 04:15 · Score: 1
  
  I understand the difference between desktop and mobile platforms. Do you understand that in terms of talking about the cutting edge, mobile platforms are irrelevant? They are, by definition, several years behind the curve. It is to be expected that they lag behind the cutting edge.
  So, great, Unreal Engine 3 runs on the iPhone. How many years old is that, again? It's been used in released games for at least 4 years. It makes perfect sense to use well-understood older technology for mobile platforms that have processing power more like what desktops were at years ago, but analyzing that trend doesn't say shit about where the state of the art has gone since. It is beyond irrelevant. It is at least as misguided as predicting the 2011 Super Bowl winner based on who won in 2005 would be.
  There are a number of reasons why a number of one-time OpenGL die-hards like John Carmack now back DirectX -- and it's not because they love Microsoft, it's because even though they would prefer OpenGL ideologically, it has stagnated in a bad way in recent years. If you can't wrap your head around that, fine, but don't make people who can out to be the ignorant ones.
100. Re:Once again.... by node+3 · 2010-10-06 06:03 · Score: 1
  
  Where is the contradiction in saying that iOS isn't simply a "cell phone OS", but is in fact primarily Mac OS X with a different UI?
  If anything, iOS is a desktop OS with a touch interface, which was Altus' point, as opposed to bberens' point which was that iOS was some sort of phone OS bolted on to a tablet.
101. Re:Once again.... by Phleg · 2010-10-06 09:32 · Score: 1
  
  The difference is that Apple had the tablet in mind from Day One. They only made the phone because a tablet the way Lord Jobs wanted it to be wasn't feasible at the time.
  
  --
  No comment.
102. Re:Once again.... by erac3rx · 2010-10-06 09:54 · Score: 1
  
  Innovation is all about scope though. If the context is 'has ever been done on any technology platform ever,' then sure... what Microsoft has done with Xbox Live is not innovative. But, then that means that everything Apple has done over the past 5 years--that basically everyone classifies as innovative whether we like it or not-- isn't either. Ipod, done before. Iphone, done before. Etc.
  
  If you focus the lens to video game consoles, what Xbox Live has done is without a doubt innovative. That you can use it without worrying about hardware requirements, operating system requirements and with a very low cost of entry is what has made it so successful. Live is the differentiator between Microsoft's console offering and what Sony and Nintendo are selling... and it has proven to be a solid advantage within a key segment of the gaming community. Re: Office, I'm inclined to disagree with you. Sure there is some lock-in, but they have provided saving to xml and export to PDF for several versions now. People like me use Office instead of the alternatives because, frankly, the applications are superior to competitive offerings. Sure there is the myth that OpenOffice is as good, or within my firm (IBM) the concept that Lotus products offer the same functionality... but for people that spend hours a day with these tools Excel and PowerPoint are head and shoulders above the competition. Keynote is impressive, but there aren't enough people using Macs to make using that format a smart choice if you share content with a reasonably broad audience.
103. Re:Once again.... by WuphonsReach · 2010-10-07 00:36 · Score: 1
  
  Don't assume, check. That's what the Sony controller looks like to me, but not the Kinect. It uses multiple video cameras to build a stereo image of the playing space, identifies actors in it, and does skeletal mapping of their whole bodies. It does facial recognition. It does voice recognition. Watch some of the demo footage, or talk to someone who's played with it themselves. It's considerably closer to "Dream Park" than anything I've heard coming out of Sony or Nintendo.
  
  It's also pretty close to "Creepy Crawly Avenue" with the video cameras that are always running coupled with a machine that is almost always hooked up to the internet.
  
  --
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104. Re:Once again.... by DdJ · 2010-10-07 02:23 · Score: 1
  
  It's also pretty close to "Creepy Crawly Avenue" with the video cameras that are always running coupled with a machine that is almost always hooked up to the internet.
  Yeup, that's true, in particular because the camera actually has motors in it and automatically decides where to aim itself (so it can keep the actors it's tracking in view). Kinect could be wonderful or awful, depending on whether it actually works and how it gets abused.
  (One thing I'm excited about is, it connects via USB. Someone will figure out how to hack it so it works with a real computer. The potential for that... yum.)
105. Re:Once again.... by Bert64 · 2010-10-10 22:20 · Score: 1
  
  Neither xbox live nor apple are innovative...
  Apple are good at taking existing ideas and producing better more usable implementations backed by strong marketing, this has always been their strategy.
  MS provide save to XML, but it's using their own proprietary schema... XML in this context is about as standard as binary, sure at the most basic level it's either 0 or 1 but that doesn't help you much with the actual data.
  PDF export is also write only, so hardly better than print in that respect. They still try to lock you in, and the recent publicised mess with ISO shows just how far they're willing to go to ensure that lock in.
  I can't speak for lotus, but openoffice provides far superior functionality for me (multiple macro languages and an easily parseable file format) and seems to offer everything 99% of users will ever need. I certainly doubt there are many cases when the difference between msoffice and openoffice (or lotus or whatever) is worth $200 (or whatever it costs these days).
  As you bring up keynote, that's another problem... it shouldn't matter what tools people are using, the data formats should be standard. The reason MS fight against this so hard is because lock-in is their biggest selling point, i know countless companies who are paying through the nose for msoffice and giving it to staff who do absolutely trivial work with it - tasks which could easily be satisfied by wordpad in many cases.
  I will always be against any product that attempts to lock people in, because it takes away freedom of choice from other people. I want to be free to choose what i use, as should everyone else be. I don't care what you're running so long as it doesn't impact on me, and unfortunately the wide spread of msoffice has a negative impact on me today.
  To give an example, my grandmother occasionally writes very simple 1-2 page letters which she prints and mails. She also sometimes (2-3 times a year) receives emails containing documents in proprietary MS formats. Should someone with this usage pattern have to pay $200 or more for msoffice?
  
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Well, there are a number still available by WillAdams · 2010-10-05 05:42 · Score: 3, Informative

Motion has 3 models available:
http://www.motioncomputing.com/
There's the Archos 9:
http://www.archos.com/products/tw/archos_9/index.html?country=us&lang=en
and the Samsung Q1EX:
http://www.samsung.com/us/computer/laptops/NP-Q1EX-FA01US
and the Panasonic Toughbook is available as a slate.
Sadly, Fujitsy quit making slates though (perhaps they'll go back to making them?) --- interestingly the selection of Windows slates has gotten so low that some people who want a larger format slate are purchasing the Axiotron Modbook (a converted Mac laptop) and installing Windows on it.
William

--
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1. Re:Well, there are a number still available by man_of_mr_e · 2010-10-05 06:43 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  The motion computing tablets are $2000+ dollars... not exactly the same thing. Tablet PC's in that price range have been around for a long time.
  The Q1 is part of Microsoft's Origami platform launched several years ago, and never really took off because of poor battery life and weight problems in the devices, not to mention resistive touch screen sucks.
  The Archos 9 i've been keeping my eye on, but it lacks 3G. At 5 hours, it's battery life is so-so, but it's the best of the group at a good price point.
  
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But does it run (Android) Linux? by MonsterTrimble · 2010-10-05 05:42 · Score: 3, Interesting

Or the bigger question - which of the big Linux distros have drivers for touchscreens? I can see Ubuntu being all over this one.

--
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1. Re:But does it run (Android) Linux? by phantomfive · 2010-10-05 05:46 · Score: 1
  
  All of them. Ease of use depends on the touchscreen, though; different brands are different.
  
  --
  Qxe4
2. Re:But does it run (Android) Linux? by rwa2 · 2010-10-05 06:17 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  I just bought an add-on resistive touchscreen kit for my eeePC 901
  http://www.slashgear.com/touchscreen-eee-pc-901-mod-2312854/
  Haven't installed it yet, but it comes with Linux drivers. Will post on my /. journal if I reach any success with it later this week.
3. Re:But does it run (Android) Linux? by PinkyGigglebrain · 2010-10-05 06:32 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Its not so much the touchscreen drivers, which most OS's already have, that will make or break a tablet/slate system in the market.
  
  Its the interface and applications. The big problem that Windows has always faced on tablets is that both it and the applications put on it were made for a mouse driven interface. Where Apple scored big was in creating a touch interface, with associated apps, that worked.
  
  All the past tablet computers failed because they didn't have a touch interface that was easy and intuitive.
  
  Unless MS has reworked the interface this "new" tablet is going to be a repeat of the Zune.
  
  _
4. Re:But does it run (Android) Linux? by mcgrew · 2010-10-05 06:51 · Score: 1
  
  Well, those MegaTouch game machines you see in all the bars here run Linux, but I'd bet dollars to pennies the interface is proprietary.
  
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It may be the tech writer in me, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-05 05:42 · Score: 1, Funny

An anagram of 'slate' is 'stale'
It would have to be in the retail chain already by Animats · 2010-10-05 05:43 · Score: 5, Informative

To be in the stores for the holiday shopping season, it would already have had to be shown to retailers, the retail space booked and paid for by Microsoft, and the first containers of product on ships in transit from China. It's too late in the retail cycle for this season.
1. Re:It would have to be in the retail chain already by MonsterTrimble · 2010-10-05 05:50 · Score: 1
  
  Damn - you're right. It would have to be arriving right now into the stores from their DCs to be ready for the holidays.
  Of course, he said available by Christmas. Doesn't mean you'll be able to find them anywhere except one store out in Los Angeles which has two. Whatever - if Microsoft's involved and it doesn't have more computing power then some small nations have, I assume it will fail.
  
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2. Re:It would have to be in the retail chain already by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-05 07:24 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Damn - you're right. It would have to be arriving right now into the stores from their DCs to be ready for the holidays.
  
  True if relying on shipping overseas by boat. MS could use air freight to expedite; however, it would be very expensive. It depends on how much MS is willing to spend to make it happen. MS will probably air freight just enough to say they made it in time for the season. If they sell out small quantities they could also announce "MS Tablets sold out everywhere!" type press releases as well.
  
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3. Re:It would have to be in the retail chain already by Blakey+Rat · 2010-10-05 07:56 · Score: 1
  
  Microsoft has pulled it off in the past-- the Kin came out of nowhere.
  
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4. Re:It would have to be in the retail chain already by owlnation · 2010-10-05 09:23 · Score: 1
  
  To be in the stores for the holiday shopping season, it would already have had to be shown to retailers, the retail space booked and paid for by Microsoft, and the first containers of product on ships in transit from China. It's too late in the retail cycle for this season.
  To be fair, he didn't say which Christmas.
And in typical Ballmer fashion by Iphtashu+Fitz · 2010-10-05 05:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

I'm betting that the tablet will be running the exact same bloated Windows OS that is meant for PC's. Ballmer still wants to see the same Windows start menu, etc. on every single device no matter how big or small. He should learn a lesson from Apple with the iPhone & iPad. What makes them so popular is that Apple did NOT take the Mac OS-X GUI and try to shoehorn it on a smaller device. The smaller screens necessitated a much simpler and more user friendly interface. Until Ballmer accepts this and lets Microsoft develop a new UI paradigm for portable devices they're doomed to failure over and over again.
1. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by CannonballHead · 2010-10-05 05:53 · Score: 1
  
  At least Ballmer will allow multitasking and a more or less open development platform. I assume, anyways.
2. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by doconnor · 2010-10-05 05:54 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  The trouble is Microsoft has to base it on Windows OS, because the ability to run legacy Windows software is the only advantage they have over iOS, Blackberry, Android, WebOS or any other tablet.
3. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-05 05:57 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  he smaller screens necessitated a much simpler and more user friendly interface.
  Not just the screen but also the input selection. Apple decided to go with all touchcreen and few physical keys. That necessitated them developing multi-touch and gestures. Or vice-versa. In retrospect what Apple did wasn't exactly revolutionary but just them being practical. Multi-touch existed long before the iPhone and iPad. To my knowledge no one put them on mobile devices before. Also Apple used touch as much as possible. Sliding vertically is the same as scrolling. Sliding horizontally is page flipping, etc. Compare that with MS. MS has had tablets for a decade or more. However besides swapping out a stylus for a mouse, MS has put in very little thought or development about optimizing the UI for tablets. There is no sliding. Clicking and dragging on the stylus is the same as with a mouse; however, with a stylus, it's not very as comfortable or elegant.
  
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4. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-05 06:07 · Score: 1
  
  Well technically Window Mobile, although it has been made to look like desktop Windows, does not come from the same codebase as Windows NT. They could have taken Window Mobile and optimized it for the tablet rather than take desktop Windows and shrunk it for the tablet. In fact, that's what they finally did with Windows 7 Phone. That's the approach in what Apple did with the iPad. They actually developed the iPad first but it wasn't ready. But they were able to shrink and thus became the iPhone. It wasn't until a few generations of iPhones that Apple thought they were ready to release the iPad.
  
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5. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by Altus · 2010-10-05 06:17 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Sadly, in this industry, sometimes just being practical is being revolutionary. Its amazing the degree to which people will throw themselves against the same obstacle over and over again without re-thinking their assumptions.
  This thread is filled with examples of tablets with windows on them and none of them have been serious commercial successes. MS has tried time and time again to enter this market and they have failed every time. One would think by now that they would do the practical thing and consider the platform from the ground up, bu they didn't do that over the last 10 years.
  
  --
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6. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by doconnor · 2010-10-05 06:19 · Score: 1
  
  Window Mobile and it's many predecessors have never been particularly successful. There's no reason to think a tablet version would do any better.
7. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by flooey · 2010-10-05 06:20 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  However besides swapping out a stylus for a mouse, MS has put in very little thought or development about optimizing the UI for tablets. There is no sliding. Clicking and dragging on the stylus is the same as with a mouse; however, with a stylus, it's not very as comfortable or elegant.
  One of the very interesting things that was pointed out to me is that scrolling with a mouse wheel and scrolling with a finger both work the way you expect them to, but they work in opposite directions. With a mouse wheel, moving your finger up moves the document up; on touchscreen devices, moving your finger up moves the document down. That's the kind of thing that makes just putting a desktop OS onto a touchscreen device a losing proposition: you need to change fundamental input interactions in order to make it work the way people think it should work.
8. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by Trailer+Trash · 2010-10-05 06:28 · Score: 1
  
  At least Apple gives you X-Code (which works well with open source software, btw) instead of charging you an arm and a leg for it.
  
  --
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9. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-05 06:29 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  That is only true of Apple's iOS platform; it is not true of OS X. MS used to be open in their mobile platform but have announced that they are going to use a walled garden approach for Window 7 Phone so they are no better than Apple in that regard. I'm not sure if they will do the same for tablets. Developers that value total freedom should use Android.
  
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10. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by jimicus · 2010-10-05 06:35 · Score: 1
  
  Until Ballmer accepts this and lets Microsoft develop a new UI paradigm for portable devices they're doomed to failure over and over again.
  Thing is, I don't believe Microsoft have ever in the whole of history developed a UI paradigm from scratch. They've cribbed from others, but never developed one from scratch.
  Of course, now there's a UI out there that works quite well on slate devices, we can be more or less 90% certain that Microsoft will clone that.
11. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by shutdown+-p+now · 2010-10-05 06:42 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Since when was Windows an open development platform?
  Since it was first made available.
  
  Try writing a decent Windows app using gcc and not making use of frameworks like .Net, MFC, etc.
  For starters, all those frameworks that you've listed (and others which you did not) are layers on top of the core Win32 APIs, which can greatly simplify things, but don't really provide new capabilities. A testament to that is that most apps that ship out of the box in Windows don't use MFC, .NET, or any other framework - they're coded against raw Win32 API. .NET is not even a C/C++ framework, so why it's listed alongside gcc is beyond my comprehension. It's like complaining that you can't write Rails apps with gcc. That said, you can write .NET Windows apps using a fully OSS stack - Mono runs on Windows too.
  MFC is a proprietary Microsoft C++ framework. It's very archaic, too, and you'd have to be a masochist to write a new app using it. Meanwhile, Qt for Windows is available, works great, and comes with a great free IDE.
  This, by the way, is precisely what it means to be an "open development platform" - APIs, ABIs and file formats are all documented, and there are no legal restrictions on their use, so any company can provide development tools and frameworks targeting Windows. Qt SDK is a prominent one, but you can just as well use Java with either of the major IDEs, or any of the dozens of C++ frameworks, or D, or Python/PyGTK, or write your own.
  Note that even if you stick to Microsoft offerings, Windows SDK is free, and includes both command-line C++ compiler and C# / VB compilers. As well as debuggers and other tools. VS Express is free, though somewhat limited. It's all still proprietary, of course, so your point still stands - just wanted to point out that you don't need to pay any $$$ beyond that Windows license to develop for it.
  The vast majority of Windows development is done using Visual Studio because many people consider it the best development environment (at least on Windows). You're not in any way locked into it.
12. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by Locutus · 2010-10-05 06:45 · Score: 1
  
  it is imperative that everyone know they are using Microsoft Windows because if they don't, they'll start thinking that they don't really need Windows and without Windows Microsoft is a goner. Something like 90% of their revenue comes from software directly tied to the Microsoft Windows desktop operating system.
  
  Apple has shown that Windows is not needed on a phone to be successful and then Google did the same with Android. As these companies move to the more personal computer like platforms of the tablet and netbooks, it takes not leap whatsoever to start thinking they may not need Windows on the desktop. For many, not all, that is true.
  
  What is the threat is the _idea_ that there is life without Windows. Once people finally get the idea that computing can be done without Microsoft Windows, then Microsoft quickly starts losing that huge guaranteed revenue stream they've been relying on for the past 15-20 years. I hear the robot saying it now, "Danger! Danger Will Robinson!"
  
  I feel that someway, somehow Microsoft will try to tie Windows 7 based tablets to some other Microsoft product so they can jumpstart the potential install base. I suppose they could try making the desktop the DVR storage device and the table the viewing device or tie it to the XBox. They have never been successful on merit alone and always had to rely on leveraging their existing dominance on the desktop to succeed. That's a tough play in the smartphone segment and the tablet and netbook segments. Windows is bloated so it'll take stripping it down and then they lose the tie to the product they must keep important to remain significant.
  
  LoB
  
  --
  "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
13. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by man_of_mr_e · 2010-10-05 06:46 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Microsoft gives you Visual Studio Express, free of charge.
  
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14. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by man_of_mr_e · 2010-10-05 06:47 · Score: 1
  
  If you want to write an app that runs in the background while you do other things you care.. for instance, a media player.
  
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15. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by Cro+Magnon · 2010-10-05 06:53 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  Thing is, I don't believe Microsoft have ever in the whole of history developed a UI paradigm from scratch. They've cribbed from others, but never developed one from scratch.
  I'm pretty sure Bob was an Microsoft original.
  
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16. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by klapaucjusz · 2010-10-05 07:05 · Score: 1
  
  Try writing a decent Windows app using gcc...
  I think you may be missing the parent's point.
  While it may be difficult to write a Windows app without Microsoft's tools, there's nobody telling me what applications I'm allowed to write, and restricting me from distributing an already-written application unless it fits their idea of what is right.
17. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by jo_ham · 2010-10-05 07:10 · Score: 1
  
  True, but Xcode is *everything* - not a light version. I think the fact that it has always been free was the spur for MS to release the Express version of their IDE - it never used to be free. Good that it is though; I'm sure there's enough there to get your feet wet. It doesn't quite match the fact that Xcode as supplied free of charge is exactly what Apple is using to develop OS X and iOS and their associated apps.
  Sure you have to pay to develop on your phone (if you want to go the iPhone route) but the SDK is included by default and you can use it to create fully working apps without paying (you can test on the simulated phone, which obviously is not suitable for a production app, but if you are going to sell it, you pay the fee and get the ability to deploy it to your phone, and the app store). The OS X side is completely free.
18. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by Blakey+Rat · 2010-10-05 07:50 · Score: 1
  
  Another commenter mentioned Bob. It wasn't successful, but it was original.
  Also, I'd say that Zune and Kin UIs are different enough than anything else to count as original, at least as original as you can get considering there are hundreds of devices doing the same task. Xbox 360's "Blade" interface looks original, but the implementation is pretty... eh.
  
  --
  Comment of the year
19. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by ratboy666 · 2010-10-05 08:05 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  What the fuck. Revisionist much?
  Windows 1.03, 2, 286, 3.0, 3.1, 3.11, Windows for Workgroups, NT, Windows 95 (and possibly even Windows 98) all did not have a free SDK. And the SDK was needed to program for those platforms.
  Hey, I went and bought a copy of Windows 1.03 -- and even though I also had a licensed copy of Microsoft C 5.1, 6.0, and MASM 4 and 5 I was not able to build an application for Windows. That would require the SDK, which was a considerable expense. I didn't buy the SDK until Windows 3.0.
  And, from 3.0 until Windows 98 (when I finally stopped writing Windows apps), I spent a lot of money on those "free" SDKs. In the Windows 9x/NT timeframe, $3000/year for MSDN, several thousand before MSDN, so make it around 20,000 (or more). Not counting third party tools and libraries.
  
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20. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by shutdown+-p+now · 2010-10-05 08:24 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Windows 1.03, 2, 286, 3.0, 3.1, 3.11, Windows for Workgroups, NT, Windows 95 (and possibly even Windows 98) all did not have a free SDK. And the SDK was needed to program for those platforms.
  They did not have a free Microsoft SDK. They did not preclude you from rolling your own. Calling conventions were known. API calls were documented (in fact, API of Windows circa 3.1 was even "standardized" by Ecma - you can still download a PDF today). Knowing those, you can write your own prototypes for all system APIs that you need (as e.g. MinGW did - their windows.h and related headers are not derived from MS ones, but made from scratch).
  I don't recall where first alternative SDKs appeared, but I do rather vividly recall Borland Pascal and C++ allowing to write very nice GUI apps for Win3.1 without any downloads from MS. In mid-to-late 90s, Delphi was the king of IDEs on Windows 9x, soundly beating anything MS had to offer.
  They're not free? Well, yes, the third parties that developed them figured that they'd like to get paid for the work they've done. It's not cheap, so it took a while before free (in all meanings) MinGW got to the point of being usable. Nonetheless everyone could make their own - and many did.
  
  And, from 3.0 until Windows 98 (when I finally stopped writing Windows apps), I spent a lot of money on those "free" SDKs. In the Windows 9x/NT timeframe, $3000/year for MSDN, several thousand before MSDN, so make it around 20,000 (or more). Not counting third party tools and libraries.
  It was your choice to use the (rather expensive, indeed) Microsoft development tools. There were other options.
  More generally speaking, the availability of a free "official" (or any other) SDK, and openness of platform for development, are largely orthogonal. iOS is not open in that sense not because Apple charges you for a developer certificate, but because they place legal restrictions on development tools, and do not allow free unrestricted distribution of apps. Windows does not have, and never had, that kind of thing. That's why MinGW was possible, even if it took a while to get there.
21. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by oh_my_080980980 · 2010-10-05 08:37 · Score: 1
  
  Dude what is in the water you are drinking and why are you not sharing!
  
  "...you can write .NET Windows apps using a fully OSS stack - Mono runs on Windows too...."
  
  Nice on Zippy but no sale. .NET is not OSS, not even close. Microsoft has not opened all the IP behind .NET. Developers are at risk of being sued by Microsoft.
  
  The First Open Development platform was Unix. Do some homework.
  
  Only Fisher Price babies who can't program consider Visual Studio to be the best IDE. Seriously, if you know how to program, the IDE is irrelevant.
  
  Go home Junior.
22. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by Svartalf · 2010-10-05 09:53 · Score: 1
  
  WinMo and it's predecessors haven't been overly successful when you get to brass tacks. There's been relatively limited uptake of the devices that the stuff ran on. Part of it is that they tried to make it as close to the Windows experience as possible so it was "familiar" to people. It was familiar alright. It was also clumsy on most devices in the space. PalmOS fared better for longer because it was easier to use on mobile devices (Palm died less because it was unsuitable and more because it couldn't transition to a more capable OS version that allowed things like what iOS and Android now provide, even though they tried to do it for years...). BlackBerry's OS would be another instance of this.
  I'm sure they're going to try to do it with WinMo. It's their only remotely credible play in this space. Sadly, it's a bit behind the times and the only way they hope to do anything really credible with it is if they succeed in scaring people with lawsuits like the one they've got with Moto right now. And that may be backfiring on them. People don't like seeing that sort of activity- especially with the party suing with such weak patents and a case that looks more like they're trying to mug them into coming back to the negotiation table to do licensing of some sort.
  
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23. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by CannonballHead · 2010-10-05 10:11 · Score: 1
  
  Most people want an easy way to buy cheap apps to extend the use of their device.
  Most people do more than one thing at a time; e.g., listen to music while reading the news.
  Saying most iPad developers don't care about multitasking and an open dev platform is like saying that most Windows developers don't care about improvements in Mac OS X. Duh. They're developing for Windows, why would they care?
  However, if Apple was considering changing the iPad ... most iPad developers would care very quickly.
  Quasi-tautological statements aren't necessarily good arguments, hehe.
  An "open development platform" is important to me because it means I don't have to get a big company's permission before I use an application on a piece of hardware that I bought. Do I like MS? Dell? No. But at least if I buy a piece of Dell hardware, they don't force me to use the Dell App Store to put an app on my computer. And at least Microsoft doesn't force me to only install Windows on MS Approved Hardware... etc.
  I like "open" platforms, with that kind of open-ness in mind, because I like being able to choose, not have my choices limited by a Big Company.
24. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by shutdown+-p+now · 2010-10-05 10:33 · Score: 1
  
  Nice on Zippy but no sale. .NET is not OSS, not even close. Microsoft has not opened all the IP behind .NET. Developers are at risk of being sued by Microsoft.
  
  Open Specification Promise covers CLR bytecode and VM specs, language specs, and Base Class Library. So long as you don't use WinForms or other proprietary MS API (which you can do by e.g. sticking to Gtk#, even on Windows), you're good.
  
  The First Open Development platform was Unix. Do some homework.
  
  I somehow doubt that is the case - Unix was not the first platform by far, and how were the ones that came before any more closed? - but it's of no relevance here. The point was that Windows is open today, not whether it was the first open platform. Unix was definitely earlier there simply by virtue of being released earlier in general. But who cares?
  
  Only Fisher Price babies who can't program consider Visual Studio to be the best IDE. Seriously, if you know how to program, the IDE is irrelevant.
  
  Only in the same sense as high-level programming languages are irrelevant. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that in your time you poked bytes of machine code directly on punch cards and that's the way you likes it. But things change, and expectations of developer productivity today effectively demand high-level languages, and frameworks, and tooling (such as IDEs) to match it.
25. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by shutdown+-p+now · 2010-10-05 11:32 · Score: 1
  
  Ballmer still wants to see the same Windows start menu, etc. on every single device no matter how big or small.
  Did you see Windows Phone 7? Screenshots, at least?
26. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by ToasterMonkey · 2010-10-05 12:16 · Score: 1
  
  What the fuck. Revisionist much?
  Windows 1.03, 2, 286, 3.0, 3.1, 3.11, Windows for Workgroups, NT, Windows 95 (and possibly even Windows 98) all did not have a free SDK.
  You know, you can slap people around all you want for using "always" inappropriately, or whatever infraction the poor GP is responsible for, but to all the people reading this in their mid-20's, this is entirely irrelevant. Windows has been an open development platform for their entire employable lifetime, and probably as far back as they could type. That is an awful lot of /. readership ;)
27. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by ceoyoyo · 2010-10-05 12:38 · Score: 1
  
  XCode more than works well with open source software, it's a nice GUI on top of gcc and llvm.
28. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by Archangel+Michael · 2010-10-05 13:14 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Which is why they are going to die a slow death. And it started two years or three years ago (if not before). I saw the warning signs in 2003. Windows is a flat stable market, it has nothing "new" to offer, nor can it.
  Putting Windows anything on a tablet, because it can run "legacy" apps is just stupid. It is NOT a legacy product, and if shouldn't be treated as such.
  However, Microsoft COULD have come up with a OS that could be tied to AD (their best product, as bloated as it is) and controlled by Policy that ran on Tablets that wasn't "Windows". But they didn't, and they can't. THEY are WINDOWS. Everything they do is for WINDOWS. And as long as they think in terms of WINDOWS they are doomed to eventual failure, because WINDOWS doesn't do what people need on 4x5 inch screens or 9" tablets.
  In short, they've stopped being a "technology company", or "software company" and have become a "Windows Software Company". This is the same problem "railroad companies" faced, thinking they were in the Railroad business, when in fact, they were in the Transportation business.
  And this is why Apple is the #2 company in the world (Market Cap) and fast approaching #1 (Exxon), they aren't in the "Macintosh" business. If I was on the board of directors with Microsoft, I'd fire Balmer and find someone that had a vision of what kind of company Microsoft could be. I'd volunteer, but I doubt they'd pick a dumb idiot from the sticks like me.
  I am willing to listen to offers ;)
  
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  Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
29. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by Archangel+Michael · 2010-10-05 13:18 · Score: 1
  
  One would think by now that they would do the practical thing and consider the platform from the ground up, bu they didn't do that over the last 10 years.
  They can't. They are WINDOWS based, and think only in terms of WINDOWS. That is their Achilles
  
  --
  Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
30. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by mfwitten · 2010-10-05 13:59 · Score: 1
  
  .NET is not even a C/C++ framework, so why it's listed alongside gcc is beyond my comprehension. It's like complaining that you can't write Rails apps with gcc.
  From gcc's website:
  
  GCC, the GNU Compiler Collection
  GNU Compiler Collection includes front ends for C, C++, Objective-C, Fortran, Java, and Ada, as well as libraries for these languages (libstdc++, libgcj,...). GCC was originally written as the compiler for the GNU operating system. The GNU system was developed to be 100% free software, free in the sense that it respects the user's freedom.
31. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by shutdown+-p+now · 2010-10-05 14:20 · Score: 1
  
  .NET is not an Obj-C, Fortran, Java or Ada framework either. So?
32. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by lavardo · 2010-10-05 15:16 · Score: 1
  
  The Start Menu is like his mommy's breast. He can't stop sucking it until he grows up.
33. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by nateman1352 · 2010-10-05 16:05 · Score: 1
  
  For starters, all those frameworks that you've listed (and others which you did not) are layers on top of the core Win32 APIs, which can greatly simplify things, but don't really provide new capabilities.
  Sadly that is not 100% true anymore. The MIL (Media Integration Layer) in Vista and later does not have a public API.
  The MIL allows one to pass vertex data as well as pixel shaders instead of bitmaps to render a GUI. The MIL is used by the desktop window manager to create those pretty glass effects. WPF (a .NET only API) accesses the MIL directly and provides vertex data, there is no supported way of doing this from a native application. Thus you are forced to use Microsoft middleware to use that part of the OS.
  The MIL is also used by Remote Desktop. Notice that if you remotely log in to a Vista/Win7 machine from another Vista/Win7 machine, you will still get the glass effects. This is because the MIL instance on the remote system is sending its data structures to the local system over the network, allowing your computer's MIL instance to render the content, including the pixel shaders for the glass effects. Because there is no public API for the MIL, VNC will never be able to copy this functionality, forcing you to buy the more expensive versions of Windows that have Remote Desktop for that feature.
34. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by shutdown+-p+now · 2010-10-05 16:54 · Score: 1
  
  The MIL allows one to pass vertex data as well as pixel shaders instead of bitmaps to render a GUI. The MIL is used by the desktop window manager to create those pretty glass effects. WPF (a .NET only API) accesses the MIL directly and provides vertex data, there is no supported way of doing this from a native application.
  I don't know much about this, but wouldn't you be able to use D3D10 in windowed mode for the same effect?
  
  Thus you are forced to use Microsoft middleware to use that part of the OS.
  If the answer to my earlier question is "no", then I guess it's true, but then you could just treat WPF as yet-another-Windows-API. It's .NET-only (makes me wonder actually... can you load it under Mono? I recall you could do that with WinForms assemblies that come with .NET), but you could wrap it with C++/CLI, or even C# + COM Interop, and expose it as native C/C++. This only has to be done by someone once, and then anything - including MinGW (given C or COM APIs) could use it. So it doesn't really seem to affect openness for development.
  By the way, if I remember correctly, there was a version of SWT that wrapped WPF controls. So you could run Eclipse (a Java app, quite obviously built using third-party FOSS tools) with WPF UI.
35. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by man_of_mr_e · 2010-10-05 18:14 · Score: 1
  
  XCode is "everything" because, frankly, it's not a very extensive environement. Visual Studio Express provides more functionality than XCode does.
  
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36. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by bemymonkey · 2010-10-05 18:28 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, Windows 7 allows you to configure all types of swypes for different tasks, and things like flick scrolling are built right in. If you really wanted, you could use third party gesture software to get all the gesture stuff you wanted, and as far as I know (my Windows 7 tablet is so old that it doesn't have capacitive multitouch yet) , you should be able to get all the oh so great multitouch gestures on there too.
  That's the beauty of Windows - almost all the software you need is already out there.
  That said, I'm typing his from a very finger friendly UI (Android 2.2), and for casual use, I like it too... but if I could get full blown Windows 7 in a similar form factor, I'd be all over it.
37. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by RocketRabbit · 2010-10-05 18:57 · Score: 1
  
  Frankly, Xcode is awesome. Xcode 4 is more awesome still. I guess if you were raised up on MSVC++, it could feel less awesome, but it works great for me and hundreds of thousand of other developers.
38. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by nateman1352 · 2010-10-05 20:26 · Score: 1
  
  I don't know much about this, but wouldn't you be able to use D3D10 in windowed mode for the same effect?
  Using the MIL would give you access to the compositing engine, which you don't get with DirectX. Access to the compositing engine enables special effects that depend on the contents of multiple windows at once like glass. The MIL would enable someone to write a program that makes windows wobble for example.
  
  If the answer to my earlier question is "no", then I guess it's true, but then you could just treat WPF as yet-another-Windows-API.
  Well WPF isn't exactly meant to be a managed wrapper for the MIL, its meant to be a widget set. If one wanted to use it as such, one would likely need to dig in to WPF implementation details fairly deep.
39. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by j-beda · 2010-10-06 01:33 · Score: 1
  
  To be fair, it was not until Mac OS X that Apple started providing the "developer tools" for free. Back in the pre-X days one needed to get ones tools from someone else (Metrowerks Codewarior was the top choice I think just before OS X).
40. Re:And in typical Ballmer fashion by man_of_mr_e · 2010-10-06 12:27 · Score: 1
  
  Well, it's gotten better, that's for sure.
  I mean, come on.. they just FINALLY added on-the-fly error checking in the latest version? That's been in VS for many years. Interface builder *finally* part of the IDE? sheesh.
  
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If it isn't Courier, they can keep it by BadAnalogyGuy · 2010-10-05 05:44 · Score: 1, Informative

Yes, we want tablet PCs. Yes, we want tablet computing pads.
We also want the Courier.
But we won't get the Courier. Ballmer hasn't got the vision to sell something like that.
1. Re:If it isn't Courier, they can keep it by Hatta · 2010-10-05 06:15 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  I'd rather have the Vera Sans Mono.
  
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Several christmasses ago by EdZ · 2010-10-05 05:44 · Score: 3, Informative

Hasn't Windows been on tablets since tablets were first sold, several years ago? Back when having no keyboard meant half your computer had fallen off, rather than being a selling point.
1. Re:Several christmasses ago by samkass · 2010-10-05 06:11 · Score: 1
  
  Hasn't Windows been on tablets since tablets were first sold, several years ago?
  Well, no, not since they were first sold. The tablet form factor even predates Apple's Newton introduced in 1993, although that's probably the first really well-known incarnation. At the time Windows was at version 3.1, with Windows 95 still over a year away and Windows NT just seeing the light of day.
  
  --
  E pluribus unum
2. Re:Several christmasses ago by phillymjs · 2010-10-05 14:06 · Score: 1
  
  The first incarnation of Windows on a tablet dates to about 1989-1990. It was Windows 3.1 with some custom software on top.
  It was designed for one purpose: to destroy Go Corporation, who had the unmitigated gall to try to produce a tablet with a purpose-built OS that was not Windows-compatible.
  That's right, folks, tablet computing would be 20 years ahead of where it is now, except Microsoft couldn't tolerate having their golden goose threatened. Read more about it in the books "Startup" by Jerry Kaplan, and "Barbarians Led by Bill Gates" by Marlin Eller.
  ~Philly
Re:Doing it just to do it by LBArrettAnderson · 2010-10-05 05:45 · Score: 3, Interesting

Windows has been on tablets for a decade, and they aren't at all bad.
if Ballmer wants them under trees, they should be by swschrad · 2010-10-05 05:45 · Score: 1

sold right now. they aren't? well, they won't be under any trees, then.
another opportunity missed.
moving from MachoSoft to MicroSoft, time marches on.

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YouTube video is gone... by sapgau · 2010-10-05 05:45 · Score: 3, Interesting

Video has been removed, that could be a story in itself...
1. Re:YouTube video is gone... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-10-05 08:26 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Backup video found here: http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/23/hp-slate-prototype-caught-in-the-wild-booted-to-windows-7/
So what? Will it be any good? by tekrat · 2010-10-05 05:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

I can sell you a tablet *right now* that runs some version of Microsoft's "Windows". You just won't be able to do much with it. I mean, Windows CE 2.11 only does so much.
The problem with this promised Windows 7 Tablet is that it won't do much either. Great, you can surf the web..., what else can you do with it? Very few apps support touch interfaces, and Windows in general is not an OS suited to a tablet computer.
What everyone's forgetting is that Apple made a very smart move by NOT putting OS-X Tiger on the iPad, since that OS wasn't suited to a touchscreen system. Instead, they simply scaled up the iPhone OS which was already made for people with fat fingers.
I mean, can't you just wait for the tablet to prompt you to press CTRL-ALT-DEL? Or tell you that if you want to close the app, press ALT-F4?

--
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1. Re:So what? Will it be any good? by Jugalator · 2010-10-05 08:39 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, you can run the entire ecosystem of Windows apps on it! Isn't it awesome, and that with an OS you're used to!
  Yes, it looks good on paper. Until you start mispressing your finger on a close widget instead of maximize, or try to resize a window to make it smaller and give room for another window, and accidentally missing the 5 pixel window border and clicking to give a completely unrelated app underneath focus.
  Using Windows 7 on a touch device is, from my experience, resulting in approximately 10.8 FPM. Frustrations per Minute.
  
  --
  Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
2. Re:So what? Will it be any good? by Missing.Matter · 2010-10-05 08:50 · Score: 1, Troll
  
  I earned an undergraduate physics degree and computer science degree using a Windows tablet (several in fact). I'm not in graduate school, and own both a new tablet PC and an iPad. Although the iPad is great for reading e-books, general reference, basic productivity (there's a great scheduling app for students called iStudiez), and casual media consumption (web, photos) I can't actually do much with it.
  The general theme of the uses I outlined above is unidirectional. That is, iPad -> me. It's an information consumption device. So more and more when I find something I would like to do with it, I actually can't, whether because of lack of input options or the Apple walled garden.
  On the other hand, I do all my serious work on my tablet PC. Aside from taking class notes (which the iPad is terrible for), I grade papers on my tablet, conduct lectures (drawing on power point slides), draw circuit diagrams, mark up textbooks and papers as I read them, and copy sections of textbooks (drawings, figures) into my notes. These are all things that are not possible on the iPad (Well, some are to a degree, but I've found them highly deficient. For example, projecting to the screen is enabled on a per app basis. That means if you have something to show students, the app has to enable it. The solution I've used is to sit the iPad under the document camera, but then you have my hands in the way most of the time.).
  The bulk of my work is done working in ROS (Robot Open Source), and writing papers (the kind that get published). These are both no possible with a tablet PC, but at least I can attach a keyboard accessory and then do these (using grown up software). With the iPad, after you attach the keyboard accessory you are still limited to apps written specifically for finger input, and they do not implement the keyboard well (keyboard shortcuts? What are those? Sure you get the standard copy, paste, but that's about it). Also, I would love to see someone try to format a paper to journal specs with Pages for iPad. The iWork suite for iPad is very feature deficient and hard to use. It's best for making small edits to documents.
  Also, ctr-alt-del and alt-f4 are handled elegantly by the on screen keyboard. I can tell you haven't actually even used a tablet pc. My particular screen is multi touch, so it's just a matter of pressing ctrl+alt+del.
3. Re:So what? Will it be any good? by ceoyoyo · 2010-10-05 12:50 · Score: 1
  
  "These are all things that are not possible on the iPad (Well, some are to a degree, but I've found them highly deficient."
  Try iAnnotate PDF for all your marking up needs. It works very well. GoodReader has recently implemented some annotation capabilities as well, although they're not as polished as iAnnotate.
  I'm a post doc and that one app has made the iPad a pretty key part of my work. I was actually writing my own before I found it.
4. Re:So what? Will it be any good? by sincewhen · 2010-10-05 19:27 · Score: 1
  
  I mean, can't you just wait for the tablet to prompt you to press CTRL-ALT-DEL?
  
  They solved that for the HP Tablet by putting a CTRL-ALT-DEL button on the side. Seriously.
  
  --
  -- Braden's law of data: All data spends some of its lifetime in an excel spreadsheet.
This says a lot to me actually by decipher_saint · 2010-10-05 05:48 · Score: 1

Given their rush to make a release prior to Christmas I think it's safe to assume that Microsoft regards tablet computing as simply a toy not as a real platform.
I mean, if they were concerned about getting a serious toehold in that market they'd release something solid when its ready, not when its sales might artificially peak due to Christmas shoppers right?
Maybe I'm reading too much into this...

--
crazy dynamite monkey
1. Re:This says a lot to me actually by decipher_saint · 2010-10-05 06:04 · Score: 1
  
  Wasn't the iPad released in April/May, what market window is that? Post-grad rush?
  
  --
  crazy dynamite monkey
2. Re:This says a lot to me actually by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-05 06:37 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  I mean, if they were concerned about getting a serious toehold in that market they'd release something solid when its ready, not when its sales might artificially peak due to Christmas shoppers right?
  MS has done this for years with consumer gadgets. For example, the Xbox and the Zune were pushed into the Christmas shopping seasons. Both allowed MS to claim that they moved millions of each when in reality, they simply pushed the quantities on retailers who would spend several months selling down their inventories. In the case of Zune, sometimes at bargain basement prices.
  
  --
  Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
3. Re:This says a lot to me actually by decipher_saint · 2010-10-05 07:03 · Score: 1
  
  See I can understand that because both XBox/Zune are entertainment media devices. In theory a tablet computer is everything a netbook is but with a specialized interface and form factor.
  I admit that I'm in the crowd that doesn't quite understand the appeal of having a tablet computer, but I'm pretty sure that there are those that take the technology seriously and want to do things with them beyond reading books or playing games. I just don't get that vibe from Microsoft when they make press releases like this.
  I don't know why but it seems like Microsoft isn't taking tablet computing seriously this time around (if I recall, they seemed very excited about it back in the early 00s).
  
  --
  crazy dynamite monkey
4. Re:This says a lot to me actually by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-05 07:15 · Score: 1
  
  I admit that I'm in the crowd that doesn't quite understand the appeal of having a tablet computer, but I'm pretty sure that there are those that take the technology seriously and want to do things with them beyond reading books or playing games. I just don't get that vibe from Microsoft when they make press releases like this.
  If you mean a full portable computer for productivity as well as consumption, the problem is UI. Today's desktop computers and programs have been optimized with someone sitting with a keyboard and mouse. Someone has to develop a UI that does not require this maybe like in Minority Report. MS for sure has never given much thought besides trading a stylus for a mouse. Apple on the other hand bypassed the problem by focusing on consumption with some productivity.
  
  I don't know why but it seems like Microsoft isn't taking tablet computing seriously this time around (if I recall, they seemed very excited about it back in the early 00s).
  Because their previous tablets didn't sell very well and MS is a business. Even with billions in reserve, they are already losing money on everything that isn't OS or Office. They can't keep losing money on OS as well.
  
  --
  Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
5. Re:This says a lot to me actually by decipher_saint · 2010-10-05 07:33 · Score: 1
  
  Some really solid points there, I guess time will tell in the end.
  
  --
  crazy dynamite monkey
17 years too late? by Kenja · 2010-10-05 05:48 · Score: 2, Informative

My first Windows based tablet computer was the Dauphin DTR-1 which was released in 1994.

--

"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
What? by MikeB0Lton · 2010-10-05 05:49 · Score: 1

Tablets running Windows have been around for a few years. Did Ballmer forget he had Tablet PC Edition? It really didn't offer anything fancy beyond handwriting and portability (sort of). By the time they recreate all of the features that iPad has, Apple will be on to something better. Why don't they get this?
There never was a Courier by SuperKendall · 2010-10-05 05:52 · Score: 2, Informative

But we won't get the Courier. Ballmer hasn't got the vision to sell something like that.
They also don't have the vision to design it. The whole thing was basically a video mockup, and if you really thought about it the design as it was just was not practical. There is a vast world of difference between what a video effects guy can come up with and what really can be made.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
1. Re:There never was a Courier by BadAnalogyGuy · 2010-10-05 05:57 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  I submit that a touch device that allowed you to "circle" an object, capture that object into an object clipboard, then drop it into any application which would be able to query the object or act on it in a special app-specific way *could* be developed.
  Indeed, this is what OLE intended before it faded away. If a CLR or JVM underlies the API, it should be possible still. Android seems to hint at this, but no one has the wherewithal to bring it all together. MS could do that, but they won't.
2. Re:There never was a Courier by SuperKendall · 2010-10-05 06:32 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  I agree that could be developed. I am saying there was not one line of code written to do anything like that.
  It seems like a cool idea though, in fact you could circle several potential objects and the destination could tell you what it understood out of the set you drug.
  But, it might make more sense within the context of a specific domain of use rather than a general purpose thing.
  I also think the OLE model was too fragile (the linking part) and that in reality you would want a Copy based system, with some kind of ability to help out with merges of changes from different sources. Otherwise removing one thing can have a bad cascade effect.
  
  --
  "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
3. Re:There never was a Courier by Rockoon · 2010-10-05 09:02 · Score: 1
  
  I agree that could be developed. I am saying there was not one line of code written to do anything like that.
  Writing the code is a trivial issue here. We arent talking about something that is technically hard in any way. The hard part would be to get application developers to support the feature in a useful way.
  
  A case-in-point is that on regular old windows I can highlight a bunch of files and drop them on other applications.. but not all other application. My favorite text editor responds to a file being dragged and dropped onto its window, but my favorite word processor does not.
  
  The magic that made the iTouch/iPhone was not that it had multi-touch, but that (a) it shipped with enough multi-touch applications that the initial reception of the product was positive, (b) the momentum of Apple in general created an initial demand, and (c) apple gave the developers no choice but to support multi-touch.
  
  The actual multi-touch interface paradigm has not been perfected yet. There is still plenty of room for innovative designs such as what Microsoft showed in that booklet mockup, as well as their compelling Microsoft Surface product. If it isn't Microsoft then it will be someone else, perhaps even Apple. The entire market will stand on each others shoulders at this point. Bootstrapped by Apple, but by no means exclusive to them as Android has shown.
  
  --
  "His name was James Damore."
Have some Courier New by tepples · 2010-10-05 05:55 · Score: 1

Why would the Courier font on a tablet be any different from the Courier on a desktop PC? Or has Microsoft deprecated Courier in favor of Consolas?
1. Re:Have some Courier New by KiloByte · 2010-10-05 07:09 · Score: 1
  
  Or has Microsoft deprecated Courier in favor of Consolas?
  Guess what font I use on my n900. Guess what font I use on my desktop on Debian for all programming tasks.
  This font is one of the only two things Microsoft ever did right, the second one being their MS 2.0a mice twelve years ago.
  
  --
  The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
2. Re:Have some Courier New by mirix · 2010-10-05 12:33 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Courier is an IBM thing from the 50's. I guess courier new is MS, but it isn't all that different.
  
  --
  Sent from my PDP-11
3. Re:Have some Courier New by KiloByte · 2010-10-06 11:23 · Score: 1
  
  Courier is an ugly thing barely adequate for mechanical typewriters. Consolas, on the other hand, is an awesome font for modern uses.
  
  --
  The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Sales guy by geekoid · 2010-10-05 05:55 · Score: 1

Makes promises about upcoming technology, news at 11..and then again at 11:30!

--
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Re:Doing it just to do it by wealthychef · 2010-10-05 05:56 · Score: 1

OK, so what is this article about? And don't go pestering me to RTFA. It ain't gonna happen. LOL

--
Currently hooked on AMP
Why not? by ifiwereasculptor · 2010-10-05 05:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

I, for one, would welcome a full-fledged OS on a tablet. It'd take a little longer to boot, sure, and demand more powerful hardware, but it's not like there isn't an upside. Desktop OSs are much less closed, with you tipically having a lot more control over your applications and preferences. In order to pay for the superior specs and remain competitive, battery life could be downgraded. Because, frankly, when are we that far away from a power source? Most of the tablet users I know tend to never take their gadget out of the house, anyway, so the battery could be entirely discarded. Then you could add a physical keyboard, because even the best virtual ones suck in comparison to any $5 real counterpart. All that's left now is to make it modular, so if my screen or processor malfunctions, I can simply replace it instead of having to redundantly rebuy a lot of components I already have. Now THAT'd be a useful device. I'd call it a "personal computer".
1. Re:Why not? by itsdapead · 2010-10-05 06:39 · Score: 1
  
  I'd call it a "personal computer".
  Like this? or maybe this?
  :-)
  
  --
  In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
Re:Doing it just to do it by mcgrew · 2010-10-05 06:00 · Score: 4, Informative

From T other FA (eWeek needs better people if they think they can stop me cutting and pasting... sheesh...)

Why include a "CTRL-ALT-DEL" button on the device's chassis unless you expect the software to crash on a regular basis? What's with having a mechanical button to activate a virtual onscreen keyboard? And yes, the device seems to web-surf pretty quickly, but an unmodified version of Windows 7 on a small touch screen translates into icons roughly the size of theoretical particles: You better have a stylus or small fingers.
We're not even going to talk about how it takes 25 seconds to boot.
The rest of the article is not worth looking at, let alone reading.

--
Free Martian Whores!
Wow by SuperKendall · 2010-10-05 06:01 · Score: 5, Funny

Video has been removed, that could be a story in itself...
Even a video of a Windows product can't stay up for more than a month!

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It's a reaction to Wall Street by jbengt · 2010-10-05 06:01 · Score: 5, Informative

The investment bank cut its rating of Microsoft shares from "buy" to "neutral".
It said Microsoft was being threatened by the rise of tablet computers such as Apple's iPad, which do not run Windows software.
1. Re:It's a reaction to Wall Street by js3 · 2010-10-05 06:08 · Score: 1
  
  The stock market is so dumb. You cut the rating for a billion dollar profit company to neutral? lol
  
  --
  did you forget to take your meds?
2. Re:It's a reaction to Wall Street by 0123456 · 2010-10-05 06:17 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  You cut the rating for a billion dollar profit company to neutral? lol
  There are two reasons to buy shares in a company:
  1. Growth, which pushes up the value of those shares.
  2. Dividends, which give you a better return than a savings account.
  Windows may still bring in lots of profits, but the opportunities for growth are far less than a company entering new markets... and most people would rather own shares in growing companies than fat old companies that pay out dividends with a stable or declining share price.
3. Re:It's a reaction to Wall Street by geekoid · 2010-10-05 06:19 · Score: 1
  
  Your argument is pure arrogance from ignorance.
  share price has fallen 23%. Look at it's 12 month trend.
  It's understandable, between a slow economy, and rising competition. Plus, there is nothing in the next year that would cause a sharp increase in there sales.
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
4. Re:It's a reaction to Wall Street by rjstanford · 2010-10-05 06:25 · Score: 1
  
  The stock market is so dumb. You cut the rating for a billion dollar profit company to neutral? lol
  So when something is "good" (in this case, profitable), its worth an unlimited amount of money to buy in?
  Unprofitable companies can be good investments, if they're cheap enough (often well below the sum of their parts). Wildly profitable companies can be poor investments if they're expensive enough.
  
  --
  You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
5. Re:It's a reaction to Wall Street by DrgnDancer · 2010-10-05 06:41 · Score: 1
  
  This... this is stupid. OK, yeah, Microsoft is WAY behind the power curve on ultra-portables (Slates, phones, and PDAs inclusive), but really? They still make money hand over fist. Five or ten years from now when it's perhaps starting to look like utltra-portables are making an impact on standard PC and laptop sales (rather than complementing them) I could see it. I think these devices might very well prove a serious impact on MS in the long run... Now though... we're years from that happening, and Microsoft makes more money than most nations.
  
  --
  I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
6. Re:It's a reaction to Wall Street by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-05 06:49 · Score: 1
  
  It used to be that stock value was based on the profitability and stability of the company. The last two decades has seen that growth or potential growth is what most companies are judged on the market. This is why Apple is higher than MS. Analysts, consumers, etc think Apple will grow whereas they don't believe MS will. Given the string of failures in the last decade, they are right to be doubtful. Besides the OS and the Office divisions, no other parts of MS really make them very much money. Before you list Xbox as a success realize that despite its marketshare, Xbox is not profitable. MS is in the red for somewhere between $7-8 billion for Xbox.
  
  --
  Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
7. Re:It's a reaction to Wall Street by walterbyrd · 2010-10-05 07:48 · Score: 1
  
  Wouldn't it nice, or at least useful, if the ratings to a stock were cut before the stock fell 23%, instead of after? It's like somebody telling you to watch out for that car, after you've been hit.
8. Re:It's a reaction to Wall Street by Gilmoure · 2010-10-05 08:33 · Score: 1
  
  Along with the fact that a lot of companies, like Apple, don't pay out dividends anymore. Used to be, it wasn't about buy low/sell high for most investors but what kind of steady income could you get from stock ownership.
  
  --
  I drank what? -- Socrates
9. Re:It's a reaction to Wall Street by ChunderDownunder · 2010-10-05 09:39 · Score: 1
  
  what, like Insider Trading?
  Pretty sure it's illegal.
10. Re:It's a reaction to Wall Street by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-05 10:15 · Score: 1
  
  So how do measure the profitability of a product? Only count the last several months or over the lifetime of the project? Most accounting systems count it from the start. By these measures, Xbox is not profitable because while Xbox is making some profit now, it is unlikely to to break even with past losses unless MS keeps making the same rate of profit for like the next 20 years or so.
  
  --
  Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
11. Re:It's a reaction to Wall Street by antifoidulus · 2010-10-05 10:56 · Score: 1
  
  With a CEO as bad as ballmer do you really expect anything less? Here is a man who is a poster boy for the modern American CEO, he consumes massive amounts of resources while em offering essentially nothing in return. It's quite obvious the man has no passion for technology and no real idea where he wants to actually take Microsoft in the future. Just look at their latest os release, their ads basically show that it's claim to fame is that it doesn't suck as bad as our previous release and we finally got around to including features our competitors had 5 years ago.
  
  Furthermore his management is a joke. It's quite clear he is either unable or unwilling to disabuse other managers of the notion that it's still 1998 and Microsofts biggest competitor is itself. You can see the result if this attitude in the fact that Microsoft often releases several competing incompatible versions of the same type of product at the same time. For example the kin vs win mobile 6 vs win mobile 7 or the two types of incompatible drm Microsoft released at almost the exact same time. You can even see it in products like windows, windows has the most inconsistent ui of any of the big 3 oses. No subsytem of windows feels like any other, not to mention none of it looks like the office ui.
  The only thing ballmer is renowned for is his juvenile antics, but he'll if I wanted a CEO who acted like that I could go down to any frat house in the country and find an army of 21 year olds willing to do that for 1% of what ballmer makes. If Microsoft wants to survive the next decade they need to fire him NOW.
  
  --
  Monstar L
12. Re:It's a reaction to Wall Street by symbolset · 2010-10-05 13:32 · Score: 1
  
  It's not profit if they don't keep it. They claim to be making billions and billions for the last decade, each year more money than ever before. They're buying back their stock. But on a dividends reinvested basis, shareholders are losing money. That's just not possible. If they had actually spent that much money buying up their stock, their shares would be worth more. If they had kept the money, they'd have hundreds of billions of dollars in cash. It doesn't math out. How do you get rid of $100,000,000,000 without anybody noticing?
  
  --
  Help stamp out iliturcy.
13. Re:It's a reaction to Wall Street by bledri · 2010-10-06 03:36 · Score: 1
  
  How do you get rid of $100,000,000,000 without anybody noticing?
  I don't know, but I'm willing to try.
  
  --
  Some privacy policy Slashdot.
Re:Doing it just to do it by Mr.+Underbridge · 2010-10-05 06:02 · Score: 3, Interesting

So what he's saying is, we don't have a great idea for Windows on a tablet, but we know tablets are hot and we would look dumb if we don't make a windows tablet, so we're creating one just to try to look good. Of course, it will be a POS, but hey, we made it!
Well, that's the thing: Windows' best selling feature is it works on anything. Windows' (arguable) worst feature is that it wasn't designed to work with anything. The bad part of not being in the hardware business (in this context) is that MS doesn't really have the ability to drive the market in that regard. So they seem to be in the position of cajoling some hardware manufacturer into releasing a tablet. Now they can partner with that company to develop features that will work well on a tablet, but it's not the same as Apple deciding "we will make a tablet" and doing everything necessary to make it a success.
I don't know what the answer is for MS. Could be they need to acquire some sort of high-end, low-volume boutique PC manufacturer to serve as a marketing arm for new toys they want to develop. But for now they still depend on the manufacturers to decide what markets they want to get into.
Re:Doing it just to do it by gstoddart · 2010-10-05 06:03 · Score: 1

Windows has been on tablets for a decade, and they aren't at all bad.
And, yet, they have utterly failed to make a tablet computer something "mainstream" that Joe User wants, or even knows exists. I'm sure it fits into a niche market, but so far, tablets have been relegated to just that -- a niche market.
I'm curious to see what they build, but by Christmas I think the other competitors will have a big head start and Microsoft will be playing catch up. Then it becomes a matter of watching them grind away until they get enough market share to be relevant, or realize they haven't made something people want.

--
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Re:OMG by larry+bagina · 2010-10-05 06:06 · Score: 5, Informative
I saw the leaked HP slate video a couple weeks back (I assume this was it). Highlights:
- mouse pointer is visible when windows starts up then hides
- you have to press a physical button to toggle the on screen keyboard
- there's a physical button for alt-control-delete
- touching performs a mouse click at that location, with a touch indicator/animation.
- slow/jerky scrolling in internet explorer.
It's windows 7 with some half-assed touch support bolted on. it will run your existing windows software but your windows software was designed for mouse and keyboard. I think you would need to be really desperate to go anywhere near it (this characterization applies to Microsoft, manufacturers, and consumers)
--
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Sant's reindeer get the holiday off this year by Megahard · 2010-10-05 06:07 · Score: 3, Funny

His sled will be propelled by eight flying chairs.

--
I eat only the real part of complex carbohydrates.
Re:Doing it just to do it by AkkarAnadyr · 2010-10-05 06:07 · Score: 1

Whenever I've had to work on Windows, I've needed a tablet or two alright.
If theirs are so good, they should include them with the install disks.

--
I bought this house and you know I'm boss
Ain't no h'aint gonna run me off
Re:Doing it just to do it by gstoddart · 2010-10-05 06:10 · Score: 1
OK, so what is this article about? And don't go pestering me to RTFA. It ain't gonna happen. LOL
- Tablets are good.
- We're innovating, and will soon have something our competitors are already shipping and selling in vast quantities.
- New technology can be disruptive and drive innovation as people adopt it.
- We envision both the public and private cloud, and therefore more revenues from server licenses because we can still really only envision business needs with a server model we stole from Sun in the 90's.
--
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Re:if Ballmer wants them under trees, they should by md65536 · 2010-10-05 06:13 · Score: 1

sold right now. they aren't? well, they won't be under any trees, then.
Well, he didn't say you'd have them under your trees by Christmas, or even that you could line up (just kidding) to buy them Christmas day. He said you'd see them.
I think he means there will be youtube videos that aren't so bad they need to be pulled, by Christmas.
Market Promises Disinterest right now. by Jackie_Chan_Fan · 2010-10-05 06:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

No one cares Balmer. Get a new idea. Stop copying Apple. Apple is a dick company... Why cant Microsoft initiate, rather than follow Apple. By the time Microsoft copies Apple's inventions, Apple has already dominated the market and Microsoft's pathetic copy is dead before it ever comes out.
Microsoft is run by a fat fucking idiot. Lets face it.
1. Re:Market Promises Disinterest right now. by KarmaMB84 · 2010-10-05 07:43 · Score: 1
  
  If they actually produced a tablet friendly interface on top of Windows CE for ARM hardware for good battery life, I might consider that copying. Right now they're doing nothing more than the same thing they did with Windows XP Tablet PC Edition: shove the full OS onto a device with a touch screen. They've been trying to shove Windows onto mobile devices since before the first rumors of the iPhone started.
2. Re:Market Promises Disinterest right now. by Strudelkugel · 2010-10-05 08:17 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Given that the Microsoft board didn't give Ballmer a full bonus this year, I suspect they are looking for someone new already. My guess is that if Windows 7 Phone isn't a huge success, Microsoft will have a new CEO next year. It's a mystery to me as to how he has managed to stay in the position this long, given his many blunders.
  
  --
  Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
3. Re:Market Promises Disinterest right now. by Nyder · 2010-10-05 17:43 · Score: 1
  
  No one cares Balmer. Get a new idea. Stop copying Apple. Apple is a dick company... Why cant Microsoft initiate, rather than follow Apple. By the time Microsoft copies Apple's inventions, Apple has already dominated the market and Microsoft's pathetic copy is dead before it ever comes out.
  Microsoft is run by a fat fucking idiot. Lets face it.
  word, wearable computers is where it's at.
  "Is that a beowulf cluster in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?"
  
  --
  Be seeing you...
Re:OMG by md65536 · 2010-10-05 06:19 · Score: 1

Thank you for converting the video into a super-low bitrate text-only video format. I'd still like to see a higher-bitrate video, cuz I think a lot of the details have been lost in compression.
Re:Doing it just to do it by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-05 06:21 · Score: 1, Insightful

Windows on tablets haven't been exactly very good either. Because of the small form factor, tablets have been expensive compared to laptops and desktops. MS never made any real changes to Windows to take advantage of the touchscreen. In terms of pure functionality, tablets were just laptops with touchscreens and a stylus but a lot more expensive. It is not a big wonder why they didn't sell very well.
On the other hand, the iPad is not as cheap as the cheapest laptops but not as expensive as the most expensive ones. Where the iPad differentiates itself is that it is optimized for consumption not productivity. As millions have been sold, Apple seems to have recognized that there was a market for such a device. Personally it doesn't meet my needs yet, but it might as Apple makes improvements to it.

--
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Microthought. by CitizenPlusPlus · 2010-10-05 06:22 · Score: 1, Interesting

This is great news!! I can't what to install Ubuntu on it.
Looking forward to it. by MaWeiTao · 2010-10-05 06:23 · Score: 1

If it turns out to be halfway decent I'm getting one. Having owned a tablet PC running XP I thought the thing had a lot of potential, they simply screwed up the execution. What those devices needed was an iOS-interface that streamlined used with a tablet. Instead they simply offered XP in it's standard form. But then, at the time touch screen technology wasn't where it was today, and PDAs and styluses were still in widespread use. A lot of effort by companies like Sony seemed to be expended on trying to integrate an external keyboard.
When I first heard of the iPad I was interested. But my hope was that it ran a modified version of OSX. So much for that idea.
I find it appealing that I could have a device as portable as the iPad but that allows me to do anything I could with a conventional PC. If nothing else, I want to be able to connect my ODB2 plug to it and run my car's diagnostic software on it.
If this device ends up being a flop or too expensive, I'll just go with a netbook I suppose.
1. Re:Looking forward to it. by 93+Escort+Wagon · 2010-10-05 06:58 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  But my hope was that it ran a modified version of OSX.
  There was a survey that came out a week or so prior to the official announcement of the iPad - I heard about it on the now-defunct podcast "Network World's Twisted Pair". The survey-takers asked people whether they would prefer (on the iPad) a more-or-less standard OS X interface, or an iPhone-style (what Apple now calls iOS) interface. Something like 70% of the people stated they'd prefer the iOS style.
  I'm not saying this in an attempt to invalidate your opinion; I'm just pointing out that, among the wider population, the majority of people don't seem to want a computer-like interface to their tablets. We probably could have deduced that even without that survey, though, given the tepid sales previous Windows tablets have seen.
  I'd guess the take-away Mr. Ballmer needs to grasp is that the majority of people don't want a "Start" button on their slate...
  
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2. Re:Looking forward to it. by gstoddart · 2010-10-05 08:32 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I'm not saying this in an attempt to invalidate your opinion; I'm just pointing out that, among the wider population, the majority of people don't seem to want a computer-like interface to their tablets. We probably could have deduced that even without that survey, though, given the tepid sales previous Windows tablets have seen.
  Exactly, the appeal of the iPad (or any tablet) is a smaller, simplified interface that is well suited to the form factor, with a user interface that is suited to the device.
  All of the complaining that people won't be able to use it as a "real" computer is tech geeks thinking the rest of the world wants the same kind of machine they do.
  Taking a desktop OS and putting it on a tablet and not actually changing much isn't really much in the way of progress -- it's repackaging 20 year old tech in a new box and not really taking advantage of it. If Microsoft just wraps up their existing OS, then it doesn't stand a chance of competing with the iPad.
  As has been pointed out, Microsoft has been on tablets for a long time, and haven't really captivated people with it.
  
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3. Re:Looking forward to it. by shutdown+-p+now · 2010-10-05 11:35 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not saying this in an attempt to invalidate your opinion; I'm just pointing out that, among the wider population, the majority of people don't seem to want a computer-like interface to their tablets.
  It's true, but I wonder what the poll results would have been on /. (or any other tech centric site). I've had a chance to use iPad for about a month and found it to be rather limited compared to my expectations for a device in that form factor.
Re:Doing it just to do it by ByOhTek · 2010-10-05 06:28 · Score: 1

As for the former, mostly because of the ridiculous cost.
I don't think I've ever seen a *new* windows based tablet for under $1200, and then it's a piece of garbage (you are looking at $1800-$1900 for anything decent).
I would have gotten one of those myself, when they had made 14" tablets, but I didn't have a decent job then. I got said decent job about a year after that was no longer an option, and the decent tablets were alll 12" or less.
Then again, I would end up using them more inline with the "notebook that doesn't have a keyboard between myself and the screen" than normal tablet use...
I think the cost issue is the big thing though. When it comes down to it, you could get significantly better hardware for less on a notebook, and the benefits of the tablet form factor weren't promoted.
Marketing fail, pricing fail. Not product quality fail.

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a tablet in every stocking... by AdmiralWeirdbeard · 2010-10-05 06:33 · Score: 1

...and a thrown chair under every tree...

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1. Re:a tablet in every stocking... by hguorbray · 2010-10-05 08:11 · Score: 1
  
  I'll believe it when chairs fly -oh wait....
  
  -I'm just sayin'
Re:Doing it just to do it by man_of_mr_e · 2010-10-05 06:36 · Score: 1

That's not entirely Microsoft's fault. The technology to make a satisfactory tablet at a satisfactory price point hasn't been there until recently. Apple had been sitting on this for years... it wasn't until everything came together that the iPad made it out the door.

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The 'Trainwreck' movie by Poingggg · 2010-10-05 06:43 · Score: 2, Interesting

It seems the 'Trainwreck'-movie has been removed by user from YouTube. Gosh, I wonder why!!

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Re:Doing it just to do it by wealthychef · 2010-10-05 06:50 · Score: 1

Wow, so Ballmer did not promise a Microsoft tablet by Christmas?

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Re:Doing it just to do it by gstoddart · 2010-10-05 06:56 · Score: 1

Wow, so Ballmer did not promise a Microsoft tablet by Christmas?
Point two says "soon" -- so, for sufficiently small values of soon, absolutely -- or possible sufficiently large values of soon, depending on your immediacy.
But, yes, it would appear he is confirming the existence of something which already exists:

Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer has confirmed that there will be tablets running Microsoft’s Windows operating system available by Christmas.
I'm not sure what to say about that -- he obviously won't get caught in a lie. :-P

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Re:OMG by objekt · 2010-10-05 06:56 · Score: 1

Back when the rumored name for the iPad was iSlate, Ballmer whipped out this demo of Slate PCs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En7cdBhlrGU

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-- Boycott Shell
Re:I'd settle for by VolciMaster · 2010-10-05 06:59 · Score: 2, Funny

I'm not supper fond of Windows, but I loathe developing Flash.
I'm more brunch fond of Windows, myself .. gives it more time to digest before bed

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Uh, there is already a tablet with windows on it. by manodrizzle · 2010-10-05 07:08 · Score: 1

It's the Archos 9 pc tablet. Check it out at the Archos website
Re:I'd settle for by mark72005 · 2010-10-05 07:21 · Score: 3, Funny

These devices look sooooo sweet, I am going to get one on lunch day.
Re:OMG by Flipao · 2010-10-05 07:26 · Score: 1

If you fast forward to around the 3.30 mark you'll pretty much see why the Windows 7 tablet is doomed. Steve Ballmer mumbling about makes it all the more priceless!
In this case.. by NiceGeek · 2010-10-05 07:30 · Score: 1

Better never than late.
Re:Doing it just to do it by UnknowingFool · 2010-10-05 07:34 · Score: 1

Ballmer however isn't making any forecasts about Windows 7 Phone. I guess someone at MS finally told him to keep his mouth quiet after he boldly predicted that the iPhone wasn't going to get any significant marketshare.

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Re:Doing it just to do it by BuckaBooBob · 2010-10-05 07:35 · Score: 1

You forget the Stock market.. Share prices are controlled sheep that lack any understanding of anything. Will the world come to an end if MS doesn't come out with a tablet? No but their stock price will surely drop like a rock if they don't.. Why?.. When you know the MS Tablets will be power hungry and awkward to use.. If they manage to tweak windows 7 enough to make the tablet experience a good one.. It will likely happen at the decline of the tablet...

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Re:Doing it just to do it by Culture20 · 2010-10-05 07:44 · Score: 3, Informative

Why include a "CTRL-ALT-DEL" button on the device's chassis unless you expect the software to crash on a regular basis? What's with having a mechanical button to activate a virtual onscreen keyboard?
I hate coming to the defense of Microsoft, but "CTRL-ALT-DEL" hasn't been a hard-reboot sequence since WinME. It's been used in WinNT/2K/XP/V/7 as a way to access the login prompt because IIRC it's a special sequence that only the kernel is allowed to listen for, so you can ostensibly be assured that no program other than the login prompt is accepting your username/password. A soft-keyboard version of "CTRL-ALT-DEL" would defeat that "security" purpose.
Re:Doing it just to do it by mcgrew · 2010-10-05 08:18 · Score: 1

Actually it's been a hard reboot since the IBM-PC was under development. It was originally put in as a debugging tool by IBM engineers. And you're right about it not hard-rebooting any more, but that was a quote from TFA.
But why would you need to do anything on a single-user machine as a way to access the login prompt? That's one of my pet peeves with Microsoft; I shouldn't have to log into a home computer at all, let alone a phone or tablet unless I needed to run as root. My Linux box never asks me to log in, it's automatic. It only asks for a password if I want to install software or access a network (or access the computer remotely). It';s one of the many reasons I wiped Windows 7 and installed kubuntu on my netbook; Microsoft has a habit of both overthinking and underthinking.

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Ob. by StikyPad · 2010-10-05 08:20 · Score: 1

Ballmer Promises Microsoft Tablet By Christmas; Chairs by New Years.

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Re:I'd settle for by shutdown+-p+now · 2010-10-05 08:27 · Score: 1

Heck Windows 7 Phone OS supposedly has XNA support for Silverlight.
Not really. What it actually means is that WP7 apps can be written using either Silverlight or XNA. Generally speaking, you'd use the latter for games (and anything else with fullscreen graphics output and its own custom UI), and the former for anything else. But you can't mix the two in one app.
Re:OMG by Jugalator · 2010-10-05 08:42 · Score: 1

there's a physical button for alt-control-delete
Hahaha! This is comedy gold right there. :D
The eternal heritage of Windows.
Ctrl+Alt+Delete.
The awkwardness from decades of backwards compatibility embodied in a keyboard salute.

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Re:I'd settle for by gtall · 2010-10-05 09:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

What makes you think MS will attempt to honestly compete in the slate/phone market? I expect they'll use the same tools they used in the PC market.
It's bonus time by jtorgers · 2010-10-05 09:15 · Score: 1

Looks like somebody wants their Christmas bonus.
Available now by MichaelSmith · 2010-10-05 09:21 · Score: 1

There is a Windows 7 tablet in OfficeWorks just up the road from here right now.

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1. Re:Available now by rjames13 · 2010-10-05 18:44 · Score: 1
  
  Hanvon BC10C Touchpad
  http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Technology/Ebooks-and-Digital-Pens/Ebooks/HATOUCH
  I've seen one too, but didn't try and touch it.
It's harder than you think by SuperKendall · 2010-10-05 09:22 · Score: 1

Writing the code is a trivial issue here. We arent talking about something that is technically hard in any way. The hard part would be to get application developers to support the feature in a useful way.
Writing a robust modular sharing infrastructure is hella hard. It looks easy which is why it's been attempted so often. They fact we aren't really using one in 2010 is testament to how hard it is to get right. Application developers will support features that are compelling and easy to use.
Especially if as I stated you add in a robust merging infrastructure, the degree of difficulty in getting the framework right and usable is very high.
apple gave the developers no choice but to support multi-touch.
I think that alone is key. I'm not even sure the other two points mattered so much as they naturally followed from that one. That and the base quality of the touch tracking system being very high.
The actual multi-touch interface paradigm has not been perfected yet. There is still plenty of room for innovative designs such as what Microsoft showed in that booklet mockup, as well as their compelling Microsoft Surface product. If it isn't Microsoft then it will be someone else, perhaps even Apple. The entire market will stand on each others shoulders at this point. Bootstrapped by Apple, but by no means exclusive to them as Android has shown.
I agree there is a way to go on this, as a variety of alternative virtual keyboards has shown.
I don't really think Surface adds anything to the conversation though, perhaps a gesture or two to the vocabulary of touch. I've used a few in various settings now and beyond the sheer size, I don't think they are unique or even particularly good touch devices. That to me was a weird side-channel in the evolution of touch interfaces.

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Re:Doing it just to do it by Svartalf · 2010-10-05 09:30 · Score: 1

Heh... They're still clumsy to use. Windows is designed around a desktop machine paradigm, which doesn't work so hot in a handheld space and probably never will.

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Re:Doing it just to do it by painandgreed · 2010-10-05 10:25 · Score: 1

I hate coming to the defense of Microsoft, but "CTRL-ALT-DEL" hasn't been a hard-reboot sequence since WinME.

No, but if you computer freezes because of a program, you still hit it to get to task manager to kill the software or reboot. He did say software, not OS. It is also a jab at how often does MS expect their tablets to act like normal computers with normal computer problems. Normal computer tablets have been out there for a long time as others have stated, and no really taken off (I have two dozen deployed to doctors right now, but they could care less that their laptop can also be used as a tablet and usually ask I rebuild without the tablet software to get a little more speed out of what was a poorly performing computer to begin with). Apple and probably the other new comers will be more of an appliance and people expect apps that just work rather than computer programs that freeze occasionally.
Re:Doing it just to do it by ToasterMonkey · 2010-10-05 11:56 · Score: 1

I hate coming to the defense of Microsoft, but "CTRL-ALT-DEL" hasn't been a hard-reboot sequence since WinME. It's been used in WinNT/2K/XP/V/7 as a way to access the login prompt because IIRC it's a special sequence that only the kernel is allowed to listen for, so you can ostensibly be assured that no program other than the login prompt is accepting your username/password. A soft-keyboard version of "CTRL-ALT-DEL" would defeat that "security" purpose.
Call it a security screen/button then. That's more accurate. Anyone bringing it up from remote desktop sees it as "Security ..."
Re:I'd settle for by ConceptJunkie · 2010-10-05 13:14 · Score: 3, Interesting

The problem is that they're getting to the point where software lock-in, strong-arming OEMs, making vague unspecific threats about patents and generally acting like a street thug isn't going to work.
If everyone is using an iPhone or an Android device, what's Microsoft going to do, hire people to break their phones? Wait, they might just...
They've been coasting on Windows and Office for 20 years, but that ride is almost done. They'll have to compete for real now, and it will be pretty amusing to watch, since they have clearly forgotten how to do it.

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In comparison... by Midnight+Thunder · 2010-10-05 13:32 · Score: 1

200K units per year is low, 40M laptops is huge, yet the iPad is truly baffling, since "Apple already revealed in July that it sold 3.27 million iPads in its first three months of availability":
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/10/05/apples_ipad_proclaimed_to_have_fastest_adoption_rate_ever.html
While it will be interesting to see if the same momentum lasts through to the end of the year, it should be mentioned those are the sales of just one company. RIM gets it (they announced the PlayBook), as does Google (with Android [GingerBread] 3.0 apparently supporting tablets) and as do a number of other hardware manufacturers. Microsoft's attempt seems to be in the same ball park as what was wrong with Windows CE or Windows Mobile (whatever name it goes by). I must admit I am curious whether HP will actually make a WebOS based tablet.

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Re:Doing it just to do it by symbolset · 2010-10-05 15:47 · Score: 1

Well all those software-based "send ctrl-alt-delete" software buttons on virtual desktops must not work then. Oh, wait. They do.

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Re:Doing it just to do it by bemymonkey · 2010-10-05 18:14 · Score: 1

How is Windows on tablets not good? If I could get a device that runs full-blown Windows 7, but could fit in my jacket pocket and got 24-hour in-use battery life (say a few days of standby), I'd throw my Android phone right out the window.
A 7-inch slate (think Galaxy Tab) with Windows 7, USB ports (host support!), Displayport or HDMI and an additional big-buttons-UI for finger use (although I think that might actually be redundant at WSVGA on a 7" screen with Windows 7's DPI scaling)... now THAT would be awesome. I've been dreaming about something like that since I was twelve, and if the form factor (in combination with the performance and battery life, of course) was available, I'm sure the app ecosystem would have already far, far, far surpassed the iApp Store and Android Market with exactly the same types of apps.
Re:Doing it just to do it by sincewhen · 2010-10-05 19:45 · Score: 1

It still smacks of shoddy implementation though:
(1) Why you would still need to CTRL-ALT-DEL to logon to your tablet - unless your tablet is a poorly disguised PC?
(2) Why couldn't they rename it to the "logon key" or "home key" or "Start key" since it isn't CTRL-ALT-DEL any more?

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Windows... by Bert64 · 2010-10-05 21:14 · Score: 1

"Tablets running windows"... that's the whole problem, microsoft simply refuse to get away from windows even in areas where it's completely unsuitable...
The Windows interface is completely unsuitable for a tablet or phone, as is the desktop interface of OSX or Linux...
Apple understands that and ensured that their tablet has a new interface designed for the form factor and new applications designed to work with that interface.
RIM also seems to understand that dragging their old proprietary os along is just dead weight, and their tablet will have a unix compatible os with a specially designed interface and specially designed apps.
Linux/Android also seems to be going for a proper tablet oriented interface... Linux certainly does have the capability to recompile existing desktop apps, but the fact noone is doing that is testament to what a bad idea that would be.
MS need to get away from windows, come up with something new and preferably posix/unix based like everything else is these days.
Windows is and always has been a lowend desktop os, and not one of the better ones at that... They are now saddled with mountains of legacy cruft and various design flaws they have to retain compatibility with.
They went half way towards replacing it with NT, but then crippled their new kernel with all their existing mess...
Imagine if Apple had continued with OS9 and tried to make server and tablet versions of that, or what about AmigaOS, TOS (atari)? All these systems were designed for lowend desktops and for various reasons would be a poor choice even on todays desktop systems, let alone phones tablets or servers.
Few could argue that OSX isn't a huge improvement over OS9, and in it's day Apple's old MacOS was way ahead of windows.

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Epitaphs by tomkinsightful · 2010-10-06 03:09 · Score: 1

There was a time when I was in awe of Micrisoft. I envied and hated them at the same time. And now just 10 years on they are under assault from every angle and loosing the war on each front. 'They are waddeling like a duck next to a warp powered starship'. Who can say what really went wrong for them, but it just goes so show how fast the new technology industry is changing. Where will Google and Apple be in 10-15 years? They seem so invincible now but history will be their judge. The nature of the business is such that you cant see whats coming up behind you until its overtaken you. But that wont just be Microfoft's epitaph. BTW Crome sucks with this site.
Re:ExoPC by neminem · 2010-10-06 06:41 · Score: 1

I hadn't (really couldn't care less about the whole tablet thing anyway)... but I think the guy who made the post directly under yours, about half an hour before you, has. :p
Apparently Balmer delivered on his promise by BcNexus · 2010-10-07 03:29 · Score: 1

There's one in today's woot:
http://www.woot.com/blog/viewentry.aspx?id=14532
http://www.woot.com/