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Facebook Billionaire Gives Money To Legalize Marijuana
Aldenissin writes "Dustin Moskovitz confirmed that he has recently given (an additional) $50,000 in support of Proposition 19, which is seeking to legalize marijuana in California this November. He had previously donated $20,000 to supporters of the act, which would allow people 21 years old or older to possess, cultivate or transport cannabis for personal use and would permit local governments to regulate and tax commercial production and sale of the substance. Asked for a comment as to why he's backing the legalization of marijuana, Moskovitz just sent this statement: 'More than any other initiative out there, Prop 19 will stabilize our national security and bolster our state economy. It will alleviate unnecessary overcrowding of non-violent offenders in our state jails, which in turn will help California residents.' An irony here is that about a month ago, Facebook refused to take FireDogLake's 'Just Say Now' pro-cannabis law reform ads."
1. Rip off you friends
2. Make massive piles of cash (that would be profit!)
3. Buy legislation
3. Woaahhh, dude, munchies!
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
...how pot legalisation could stabilise national security, as TFA claimed; but then it came to me.
Get all the terrorists stoned, and they'll most likely be far too demotivated and/or tranquilised to carry out terrorist acts. It's actually brilliant. If someone from the Pentagon is reading this, I trust that it will be implemented immediately.
OMG, a billionaire gives 70.000 $ to an association - that is indeed a very strong backing. With all that money they will be able to lobby for a good week at least.
One political action is not taken because it will be good to society, but because it will bring more votes in the short run. That's why it's called political. This is not the case with marijuana. Anyone supporting this will be easy target.
We need to drop this 'war on drugs' mentality that's cost us so many billions and given us one of the highest imprisonment rates in the world. Marijuana is less addictive and damaging than both alcohol and tobacco, and actually has plenty of acceptable medical uses. Its also rather interesting that a state is testing its powers against the federal government by downright defying a federal law, I wonder how that's going to turn out.
"People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.
BBC is reporting this and also that Sean Parker has donated $100,000 to support prop 19.
An irony here is that about a month ago, Facebook refused to take FireDogLake's 'Just Say Now' pro-cannabis law reform ads."
Why is that an irony? Facebook as an entity has much more to lose in political backlash if it even hints at supporting such a, albeit unnecessarily, hot topic such as marijuana legalization. Very few people give a damn what a single person does with their own money.
How do you think kids feel now. On one hand you have the government, parents and everyone saying that marijuana is not good for you. And on the other hand you have a Facebook founder telling them its ok and should be legal. I'm afraid that if the proposition isn't passed that it will just make it all the much harder for the people against it to gain ground.
Absolutely, do NOT decriminalize the drugs. Legalize them. And do not allow production to every go into gang hands or to be imported/exported. THis is purely about getting control of our borders and ending drug use. Gangs push more drugs than anything else because it is HIGHLY profitable. Stop the profit incentive and you kill the gangs and imported drugs from Mexico and China.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
According to an extensive research article published in The Lancet (highest impact factor medical journal), cannabis is both less damaging AND less addictive than either tobacco or alcohol.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
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Go to google news. Search for: mexico drug war
it was nice defeating you, I'm sorry you couldn't be a more worthy opponent.
don't bet on it. although, spontaneous gestures of goodwill & spirituality are part of our potential, & may increase during times of uncertainty (fear) (every day now), & mass destruction.
what's running against all things good? lemming sea, add immeasurable amounts of MISinformation, & there you have IT? that's US? thou shalt not... oh forget it. fake weather (censored?), fake money, fake god(s), what's next? seeing as we (have been told) came from monkeys, the only possible clue we would have to anything being out of order, we would get from the weather.
the search continues;
google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=weather+manipulation
google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=bush+cheney+wolfowitz+rumsfeld+wmd+oil+freemason+blair+obama+weather+authors
meanwhile (as it may take a while longer to finish wrecking this place); the corepirate nazi illuminati (remember, we came from monkeys, & 'they' believe they DIDN'T, & continue to demand that we learn to live on less/nothing while they continue to consume/waste/destroy immeasurable amounts of stuf/life, & feast on nubile virgins with their friend morgion) is always hunting that patch of red on almost everyones' neck. if they cannot find yours (greed, fear ego etc...) then you can go starve. that's their (slippery/slimy) 'platform' now. see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder
never a better time to consult with/trust in our creators. the lights are coming up rapidly all over now. see you there?
greed, fear & ego (in any order) are unprecedented evile's primary weapons. those, along with deception & coercion, helps most of us remain (unwittingly?) dependent on its' life0cidal hired goons' agenda. most of our dwindling resources are being squandered on the 'wars', & continuation of the billionerrors stock markup FraUD/pyramid schemes. nobody ever mentions the real long term costs of those debacles in both life & any notion of prosperity for us, or our children. not to mention the abuse of the consciences of those of us who still have one, & the terminal damage to our atmosphere (see also: manufactured 'weather', hot etc...). see you on the other side of it? the lights are coming up all over now. the fairytail is winding down now. let your conscience be your guide. you can be more helpful than you might have imagined. we now have some choices. meanwhile; don't forget to get a little more oxygen on your brain, & look up in the sky from time to time, starting early in the day. there's lots going on up there.
"The current rate of extinction is around 10 to 100 times the usual background level, and has been elevated above the background level since the Pleistocene. The current extinction rate is more rapid than in any other extinction event in earth history, and 50% of species could be extinct by the end of this century. While the role of humans is unclear in the longer-term extinction pattern, it is clear that factors such as deforestation, habitat destruction, hunting, the introduction of non-native species, pollution and climate change have reduced biodiversity profoundly.' (wiki)
"I think the bottom line is, what kind of a world do you want to leave for your children," Andrew Smith, a professor in the Arizona State University School of Life Sciences, said in a telephone interview. "How impoverished we would be if we lost 25 percent of the world's mammals," said Smith, one of more than 100 co-authors of the report. "Within our lifetime hundreds of species could be lost as a result of our own actions, a frightening sign of what is happening to the ecosystems where they live," added Julia Marton-Lefevre, IUCN director general. "We must now set clear targets for the future to reverse this trend to ensure that our enduring legacy is not to wipe out many of our closest relatives."--
"The wealth of the universe is for me. Every thing is explicable and practical for me .... I am defeated all the time; yet to victory I
I don't mind people smoking pot but do not want my children to buy a pack on the streets.
Really? What are you, high?
Oh, now I see what you mean by "this." Irony, got it.
When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
Your answers are here.
Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
But seriously, legalizing pot might actually have a better effect on the country than implementing teacher pay based on student test scores like Zuckerburg's trying to do with his Newark donation. Test scores have much, much more to do with with the quality of home life than the quality of teaching.
The Institute of Incomplete Research has determined that 9 of out 10
I'm just guessing, but this may refer to Mexico border security. The drug trade's pretty violent right now, and the theory is that legalizing marijuana will undercut the cartels, forcing them to calm down and act like legitimate businesspeople instead of terrorists.
I have my doubts about this theory (it's not like the 21st Amendment magically got rid of organized crime in the U.S.), but it's not WTF-worthy.
People claim that legalizing pot will bring gazillions of dollars into the government coffers by taxing the product.
However they don't explain why we should believe that current dealers would be willing to start collecting and submitting taxes to the government. They already have a product that they are selling tax-free, what is the incentive for the dealers to start charging more for the same product?
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
I always wondered what will happen when marijuana becomes legalized and the likes of Altria née Phillip Morris and Monsanto eventually get into it - New Marlboro White Widow! Roundup-Ready PPP! What's keeping them from (albeit quietly and behind the scenes) promoting legalization and creating new markets for themselves?
.
Prisencolinensinainciusol. Ol Rait!
it free up cops / courts / the prison system for real crime and not tieing them up with your dime bag buyer. Also thing of the tax money from pot as well.
For a gov't, a nation is a bit like a machine which they redesign and tune to get the best performance.
For them, pot makes most stoners demotivated (less invention), lazy (less rpm), sadly similar to each other (wasteful redundancy), and, after years, possibly depressed (moves the gov't to a lower position in the international highest score list). So, the gov't hates pot like you hate water in the gas you buy for your car.
What, makes you speak as though you are thinking more than 2 years in advance? Yeah I made a lot of good calls when it came to stocks while I was smoking weed.....Just too bad I'd already blown my investment capital on weed!
-Oz
Sounds like the dream job for the facebook "wish I had been there" wannabee :)
http://asana.com/jobs#Engineer
Have you fscked your local propeller head today?
I have my doubts about this theory (it's not like the 21st Amendment magically got rid of organized crime in the U.S.), but it's not WTF-worthy.
It didn't kill organize crime, but they sure as hell stopped running hooch from Canada in a hurry.
Apparently, you don't have illegal aliens living in your nearby forests dumping pesticides, trashing the place, poaching and running around with AK's. Well, it exists here in Northern California and we don't like it.
I've got 101 mod points and you can't have them!
Decriminalize is EXACTLY what causes your kids to buy it from the street. In addition, it feeds the gangs money. LOTS OF MONEY. Instead, legalize it, and control it via gov. controlled stores like Utah does. Likewise, allow pot to be farmed, but it must go to gov. controlled stores only. MOST IMPORTANTLY, crack down HARD on ANYBODY selling it or transporting it. Basically, break the gangs and the importers/exporters. Western wealth is at the heart of the world wide drug system. We need to stop it all production. But you can not unless you control it.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
He just wants to be able to set this status and not get arrested.
I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
First, make for step prison time for selling or buying illegal drugs.
Second, make the price for legal stuff LOW at first.
If buyers can get it cheaper and safer from the gov, than buying it from drug dealers, AND they know that they will go to prison IF they buy from a deal, then dealers will quit.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Prohibition - ever heard of it? It was the great idea of making something illegal that could be made in your bathtub. -Pot, making something illegal that grows in your backyard, your basement, your National Forest - easy to grow, easy to sell. Millions and billions in Court costs, incarceration costs, police costs and power to criminals - all for something you can't stop and is no worse than booze. So simple, so hard for people to understand.
Enjoy your Karma, after all you earned it. Feel your Karma Joe, feel it burn.
It's great that no hyperconservative born-again fundie puritan Christians are donating money to skew the political process by fighting the proposition.
Because now the ordinary average guy who supports it can have a chance at winning.
Boy, are you out of touch.... your chidren can buy pot any time they choose. Today.
No sig today...
Charlie Crist realized that as governor of Florida & is getting crucified by his former party for vetoing a very similar bill. The Republicans honestly think they know more about teaching children than our educators do.
There is a war going on for your mind.
When you make something illegal that isn't a real crime, you still create criminals and everything that comes with that. Now what I mean by "not a real crime," is something that doesn't cause harm to others. Nobody in their right mind is going to say murder shouldn't be a crime. By its very nature it is a crime, because it hurts someone. However other things, like drugs, are not. There is on inherent harm to anyone other than the user.
Now this doesn't mean that you should never make anything illegal that doesn't cause direct harm. There can be good reasons. An example might be excessive speeding. In and of itself it causes no harm, however it greatly increases the chances of harm being caused by a mistake, and the magnitude of that harm being rather large. Hence there is a reason to make it illegal. Likewise some drugs are just too dangerous to use safely. Crystal meth is a good example. There isn't a safe way to use meth, so it probably isn't a good idea to allow it to be distributed legally.
However you have to weigh the reasons against the negative impact on society. As with any choice, there is ALWAYS a downside. When you make something illegal the downsides are that you create criminals, and thus have to spend time and resources dealing with that, and you provide a potential source of profit for illegal enterprise. So you have to weigh that against the good you believe it will do.
In the case of marijuana, things are very firmly slanted to the bad side with it being illegal. The drug itself is very mild. There is no near term toxicity and its long term effects are no worse than alcohol or cigarettes (it can cause lung cancer, like any inhaled smoke, and it seems to have a negative impact on higher reasoning skills when used heavily for a long term). So it is not very harmful. However it being illegal has put a ton of people in jail, which costs money, and provided a nice profit source for illegal enterprise.
Things like this need to be weighed. Sure, if marijuana was legal it would lead to some problems. People would get stoned and operate a car (that would need to be covered under DUI laws). People would abuse it and spend their life doing little else other than getting stoned. However those problems are far less than the current problems, and are ones much easier to mitigate.
Whenever you talk laws like this, it always needs to be a cost/benefit analysis. You have to work out what is the best for society over all, and not let knee jerk politics get in the way.
And as a Florida resident I respect Crist immensely for having the courage to veto that bill.
The Institute of Incomplete Research has determined that 9 of out 10
It isn't just places that are in hard times (like Russia) or poorer countries (like Nigeria) that are above the US. The UK, Germany, France, New Zealand and so on all drink more than the US per capita. Switzerland, Japan, Denmark, South Korea all smoke more than the US. We are talking developed, productive, stable nations here. America may like to party more than some nations, but they seem pretty middling over all. You'd have a hard time arguing that Germans don't produce quality goods, or that Koreans are nothing but slackers.
Unless they've changed it since when I was in school (which was admittedly a long time ago) then the message is that all drugs are EVIL. They'll all fuck you up, make you a degenerate, etc. No drugs period. They are all painted with a broad brush.
Ok well the problem is that isn't true, and kids are going to find that out. They'll meet someone who smokes weed, and does fine. Maybe a popular kid they idolize, maybe an adult who has a job, family, and all that shit. Whatever the case they'll realize that what they were told was bullshit. They may try it themselves and further realize that it was bullshit. Pot won't destroy them, all this was nonsense.
Now the real problem is that they may then ignore some of the other messages. See meth really WILL destroy you. It is heavily addictive, you often get addicted with a single usage, and we are talking a physical addiction. It also just wrecks your body. Your teeth fall out, you become gaunt, it'll kill you in not too many years. All this is on top of the heaping helping of paranoia and delusions it gives you. Nasty, nasty, shit that nobody should ever mess with.
However if the message about meth and pot is the same, and someone finds out the pot message was BS, well do they believe the meth one? Much less likely.
We need to be straight with kids. Tell them how it really is with drugs. That doesn't mean saying "Sure use them," I mean leading a clean life is always best and that counts the legal ones. You are better off not to smoke tobacco, or marijuana or anything. However there's a big difference between those and things like meth and heroin.
It is similar to the bullshit and ineffectiveness of abstinence only education. Nobody is saying tell kids to go have sex, they are saying tell them "Look, the only sure fire way to not get pregnant or get a disease is to not have sex. Really, the best idea is to wait, it is much, much safer. You do NOT want a kid right now whil you are still a kid yourself. However, if you are going to have sex, here's how to be safe about it."
Same shit for drugs.
Can someone show me stats to back up the claim that the prisons are overcrowding based on drug use?
Here's a hint: Weed is way easier for kids to buy than alcohol. Alcohol is only sold in stores and restaurants. The bootleggers have basically vanished. Even with the taxes, you just can't compete with Safeway. Well, turns out the stores aren't willing to sell to kids. They get plenty of sales legally to adults and do not at all need the heat they get from underage sales. So they check ID. Makes it hard for a kid to get it, without an adult accomplice.
Pot though? Drug dealers don't check ID. They sell to anyone who's got the cash. They are already breaking the law, they don't give a shit if it is your kid. What's more, they'll even market to kids. They need to try and find every customer they can, since they have to keep things underground. Means they'll target anyone who looks likely.
You legalize pot, kids will have a much harder time getting their hands on it. Won't be impossible, of course, they can get an adult to buy it for them as they do with alcohol. However it'll be harder than it is now.
Oh and PS: "Think of the children," arguments are bullshit. It is an attempt to appeal to emotion, rather than use logic.
Just curious, are you going to vote for him as an Independent in the upcoming election?
There is a war going on for your mind.
Now I'm all for legalization simply because you CANT STOP people from getting the shit. But this silly shit they keep floating about how they are going to tax it and raise all this money off it is the most ridiculous shit I've ever heard. It's POT. You can grow it anywhere! I could have a plant 10feet high in my backyard and provide all the pots anyone within a quarter mile of me needs with little to no effort at all. Exactly how are they going to tax that?
While the extra tax revenue doesn't hurt, that isn't where most of the money is gained on this.
Consider the ridiculously huge number of people in prison for a harmless crime, and the fact that many of them get longer sentences than rapists. Now figure out what it costs to incarcerate them at taxpayer expense. (Hint: we have 106% of Canada's crime per capita, but 616% of their prison population per capita.*) Now calculate the lost labor from having them rot in prison instead of doing something productive. Now add in the cost of paying all of those cops who do pretty much nothing but go after potheads. Now add in the huge amount of Mexican border security needed vs. drug gangs with the power of small armies, which get all their money from... yep, pot. This goes way, way, into the billions. Not throwing all that money away would make a huge difference. Any tax revenue gained from selling it legally is just a bonus.
* - Here's my sources on those 2 statistics I quoted:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita
As for the dealers selling it tax free? The dealers are out of the picture. They can't keep up with the prices a large-scale commercial operation is going to be able to sell it at. When's the last time you purchased alcohol from a dealer on the street, vs. one of the 97 gazillion liquor stores? If you're most people, the answer is "never." Now sure, some set up their own mini-distillery (or get some from a neighbor who does), and they obviously aren't paying tax on it, but that's such a ridiculously small minority that it's statistically insignificant - and even most of the ones who do that don't use it as their sole supply due to the sheer impracticality of producing large amounts of beer with something you made in your basement.
Last but not least, in additional to the many billions we wouldn't be throwing away, we'd be some lives by weakening the gangs up here, and a LOT of lives in Mexico, where the drug lords pretty much own the country thanks to the virtually limitless income they're making from US pot users.
I don't smoke pot... it simply doesn't appeal to me. However, it's actually *less* harmful than alcohol, in that it's quite possible to OD on alcohol (although you generally have to be pretty stupid to manage that), while it's physically impossible to OD on pot. As for the short-term impairment of being under the influence of either, I don't really see one being significantly worse than the other. The only issue I'd have is people driving while high, and we already have DUI laws to cover that. Just add an "or pot" everywhere those laws mention alcohol.
coincidentally, i read an article a few months ago that said the non-illegal immigrant northern california marijuana farmers were opposed to the broad decriminalization of marijuana for fear that big pharma would get involved and run them all out of business. in turn, this would wreak economic destruction on entire counties (where mary jane is their larges/onlyt export).
-- derby
1) You will discover tax agencies are very effective. Al Capone didn't get brought down for murder, or any of the number of other things he did. He got brought down for tax evasion. The NYPD, the FBI, the ATF, all failed to bring him down. The IRS though? They got him. Don't fuck with the tax man, the government wants it money and they are rather good at getting it.
2) They won't be able to compete on price. You have to remember that if this is legalized, the major agriculture businesses will be the ones doing the growing. ConAgra, Altria (Philip Morris), etc they'll be the ones doing it. With their efficient methods and scale of production, you just won't be able to compete on price. Even with the tax it'll cost less.
3) They won't be able to compete on convenience. Pot would be available in Safeway, 7-11, and so on. Even on the Internet. You could get it anywhere, no need to seek a dealer out. Much easier.
You might notice that the bootleggers are essentially extinct now that alcohol is legal once again. There's tax on that, but you just can't compete with big business in your bathtub. Trying to make hooch that you'd have to sell for a small amount since you'd have to undercut the stores just isn't worth the prison sentence you risk. So nobody does it. If someone wants to make a special kind of alcohol and sell it, they do so legally and pay the tax. That would be what microbrews are.
The reason illegal drugs are tempting is because the profits are high. The risk is made (somewhat) worth it by the large profit margin. Well those go down the tubes when shit is legal. You have to fight big business and they know how to cut costs.
Key word, of course, is "act". If it becomes bad for business to act like terrorists, they likely will cease doing so, even if they're the same sociopathic thugs they've always been. They're not ideologically or religiously motivated, after all; they're just in it for money.
We had drugs just about ready and waiting for organized crime to move into. Get rid of drug laws (by which I mean legalizing use and sale for all the major categories of recreational drugs, including opiates, cocaine, and amphetamines, and keeping any taxes on same reasonable) and you'll push organized crime back to their roots as protection rackets and smugglers. Which won't eliminate them but should reduce their reach.
the gateway theory is very much disputed. While its true that most users of hard drugs ALSO use cannabis very few users of cannabis also use class a's. Current thinking is that the black market is what causes the gateway effect, your local wallmart isnt going to suggest that you try some crack with you packet of Marley joints, but at least in the UK its not unusual for a dealer to put a little something extra in with your weed.
Key word, of course, is "act". If it becomes bad for business to act like terrorists, they likely will cease doing so, even if they're the same sociopathic thugs they've always been. They're not ideologically or religiously motivated, after all; they're just in it for money.
...so what? If they're well behaved then they're well behaved.
$ make available
"I have my doubts about this theory (it's not like the 21st Amendment magically got rid of organized crime in the U.S.), but it's not WTF-worthy."
true, but consider: that did allow organized crime to gain a lot of money and support from normal citizens who might have wanted to end a day's work with a beer. Ending prohibition was too little too late, I'd argue that organized crime would have been a lot weaker w/o prohibition.
The drug cartels are very rich. Legalize drugs and you'll take away that business. But they are rich enough to move into other stuff. Also, these guys aren't dumb. I am sure they already have their hands in many things.
blah blah blah
A large company tries to stay uninvolved in controversial issues by not displaying ads about said issues. At the same time, one of their executives wants to, personally, take a stand on one of said issues by backing one side. Nothing is stopping another large shareholder to donate money to the other side of the campaign.
There's no irony here at all, it's just something that makes perfect sense, like rain in my wedding day.
I guess it's safe to say facebook doesn't have an anti-drug policy? maybe testing positive will get you a promotion?
See my posts explaining that making activities illegal can create an unregulated black market. If they could come here legally, would they be breaking other laws?
What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
This is a song by the streets called "The Irony of it all" that I think sums up the whole argument quite nicely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCbDF-OPDX4
Those who can, do. Those who cannot, sue.
As a politics junkie, I definitely find it hard to keep up, and that's just the US, let alone any other countries I'm interested in.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
Facebook the CORPORATION denied a pro-pot ad, but Moskovitz the PRIVATE CITIZEN gave money to pro-pot organization.
That might be 'apples and oranges', but it's certainly not Irony.
But, it may help the economy by giving the government a cut of the money from the drugs. That is good and will also discourage people from doing them because there will be no taboo to "be cool".
I've been thinking about the huge number of people who are in jail for Marijuana possession. Who lose their right to vote and become justified in their antipathy for an unfair state.
This is the first I've heard of using the jail space to create more jail time for serious offenders. What a brilliant idea, way to go right wing!
I do believe the science suggesting Marijuana can lead to mental illness, which is why I believe it should be a restricted substance. However I also believe the statistics on Marijuana based convictions and jail time.
The solution, like gambling (which, IMHO, could use tighter regulation). So like Las Vegas, or Salt Lake City, for Marijuana. Not everyone would make the hike of course, but if the police monitored entrance and exit (A ferry maybe?), it could reduce Marijuana offenses significantly in the nearby area. This solution allows for trading of a substance which is remaining controlled outside these SEZs, since it'll be tourist traffic positive cash flow for government could be created with an amusement park, beach or island (so conservatives can be happy). Everyone wins.
It helps local government. Has anyone ever got a "Possession" or "Drug Abuse" charge for Marijuana? In Ohio you pay $250 in fines to the city typically and then about another $120 in court cost. Also it causes a short license suspension that can be lifted by the judge that results in reinstatement fees paid to the state. Since you can't waive the offense it keeps judges employed and all the other office gremlins sitting pretty. Yea, it cost $30,000 a year to house the big fish, but there are thousands of small fish every day to fry.
A more fitting title to this summary would be "Billionaire Donates (at most) 1/14,285th of his money to support Prop 19"
I'm glad actually that he donated, but just be nice if we were told what exactly this $50,000 was going to accomplish.
The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. - Einstein
And when the drug cartels, finding the pot business no longer lucrative, move on over to cocaine etc.. what then?
As long as there is something that's outlawed, there will be outlaws performing it. If you legalize it, those (and others) will move on over to the next outlawed thing. Legalizing something to take away the raison d'etra for these cartels won't work. Legalizing booze didn't make the mob vanish. They moved on over to coke and gambling. It took concerted effort from the FBI to stamp them out.
I support legalizing pot - I think it's less harmful than the two current legal drugs - tobacco and alcohol. But I don't for a second believe that we'll solve the mexico drug war by legalizing it. it'll only get worse because they'll be pushing cocaine. The drug cartels have to be taken on just like the FBI took on the mob.
Politics have no business interfering with education. Leave education decision making and policies to professional educators not political posturing!
An irony here is that about a month ago, Facebook refused to take FireDogLake's 'Just Say Now' pro-cannabis law reform ads."
OP needs to find himself a dictionary, or hit up Wikipedia. There is nothing even remotely ironic about this. A guy supports a position and his employer does not support that position. Where's the irony in that?
---As my daddy used to tell me: "You gotta be smart before you can be a smartass."
The (hopefully) obvious solution is to abolish the drug prohibition all together. I would bet the total societal cost (in terms of both financial cost and loss of human life and productivity) of the drug war has far exceeded the costs ever possible in a society where all drugs were manufactured and distributed legally. I would also bet cultural pressure to avoid the use of certain kinds of drugs would be far more effective than the current legal pressure to avoid the use of almost all drugs.
They probably should also legalize and regulate prostitution while they're at it.
Democracy is as old as the ancient greeks, and much older if you include "unofficial" instances of political power. After all, the concept isn't rocket science. You certainly aren't the first one to blame "the people" for the crimes and wrongdoings of those at the top who actually control government. Moreover, if it was possible to rid the political system (any political system) of the immoral and unjust downsides, then it certainly would have happened already.
From an objective viewpoint, democracy has the same two fatal flaws as any other political system (including the democratic republic):
1. It requires a pyramid structure, with the law being commanded from the top down. As much as you'd like to claim the pyramid is formed from the bottom up, this simply isn't possible if the very concept of political power (a special "right" to employ coercion as one's means) is to exist. If everyone was equal in power, then that special right would not and could not exist. The fact that it does exist means that equality does not.
2. The bigger the government, measured both in revenue and power over the people, the more lucrative the business of government for those at the top of the pyramid. Therefore, the incentive to expand the business of government will never vanish, and this is why all governments only expand throughout their lifetimes, never willingly or significantly relinquishing power or revenue. For example, the US government of today absolutely dwarfs the US government of only 50, let alone 100 years ago, both in revenue and power over the people. Before you point to slavery and women's rights, consider that abolishing slavery and granting women the right to vote did not, in any conceivable way, provide justification for a near-exponential expansion of political power.
As for me, I firmly believe that political power is something to overcome throughout the evolution of our species, rather than something to perfect. Much as any urge to initiate coercion is something to evolve out of, not something to "perfect". At the same time, I fully realize and accept that political power is here to stay for the next millenium, and with that said, tiny steps towards that goal such as the legalization of victimless "crimes" are a good thing and certainly something to strive for.
1. If alcohol is legal pot should be too. The former has far more potential for harm than the latter.
2. Half the population feels or has felt the law is contemptible and contemptible laws breed contempt for the law.
3. Pot should be regulated much the same as alcohol and cigarettes, in your home or licensed establishment. Obviously, one should not drive or engage in other potentially harmful activities when stoned. Common sense must prevail.
4. If governments wish, the level of THC in the product could be regulated in order to prevent ever more potent strains from being engineered.
5. Don't expect a huge tax windfall from legalizing pot, the stuff is dirt cheap to produce because it grows like a weed. Pun intended. Once the risk is removed, absent government mandated pricing competition will drive prices through the floor just like the rest of agriculture.
6. Stop putting people in jail for smoking pot. It makes no sense when places like California have such huge budgetary issues. A ballot initiative should be put to the people, de-criminalize or tax increase proportional to the cost of keeping all those locked up for the offense in jail. Halting the lock ups is really the only area you will see savings from legalization.
7. If Pot is legalized, then discourage smoking as a delivery method... Smoking is still harmful to your health.
8. At some point, it will happen so why not be ahead of the curve? The benefit is generally the greatest for the early adopter of these sorts of things.
9. No system is perfect. The best we can do is always try to make things better!
How do you think kids feel now.
As a grown adult who uses birth control responsibility, let me just say, fuck the kids. I am pretty fucking tired of my civil liberties being stripped because some lazy ass parent can't keep their little spawn in check without the full brutal force of government beating everyone over the head. If you find the world too scary to have kids in, don't fucking breed. If you feel you must, America is big, so go find an unused corner away from other humans and do it there. I like violent video games, sex, and if I want to use a drug that is one step below herbal tea in terms of potency, please fuck right off and let me use it without your moaning about your little spawn being influenced by my naughty behavior (in my own fucking house).
As a general rule of thumb, any politician that declares "OMFG THE CHILDREN" doesn't get my vote. I have handed in more than one blank voting ballot.
You people are gonna put some of us outta a VERY VERY profitable job.
VOTE NO ON PROP 19!, i want to retire at 40!
Then legalize cocaine, of course.
The objective should be legalizing everything that can possibly be.
Once we're done with that, what's left for the mob are things that everybody agrees are uttely vile, such as extortion and protection rackets. With things like drugs there are very large amount of people that don't think there's anything wrong with them. A dealer may fear the police, but also has people who like him, like his customers.
With things like protection rackets nobody likes the people involved, so any attempt to "do business" is extremely risky. Anybody aware is extremely likely to try to turn them in to the police. The customers for such services if they exist are going to be very few. Also I'm pretty sure that much fewer people would be willing to do something like that. Unlike with drugs, virtually everybody agrees it's wrong. And the kind of person who would break somebody's legs for money is exactly the kind of person who should be behind bars.
And when the drug cartels, finding the pot business no longer lucrative, move on over to cocaine etc.. what then?
Do you think the drug cartels aren't already dealing cocaine? Removing cannabis from their inventory will only serve to reduce the amount of money flowing into their coffers. That will in turn reduce the amount of power that they can wield over the government, law enforcement, and the general public.
Something extra? Like what? And what is the purpose?
Your brain is not a computer.
And when the drug cartels, finding the pot business no longer lucrative, move on over to cocaine etc.. what then?
You then provide a legal and safely regulated way for people to get the cocaine they can't live without? It's the only rational and charitable thing to do.
You can't take the sky from me...
Key word, of course, is "act". If it becomes bad for business to act like terrorists, they likely will cease doing so, even if they're the same sociopathic thugs they've always been. They're not ideologically or religiously motivated, after all; they're just in it for money.
The local gangsters stopped blowing each other up with car bombs after shrapnel killed a kid and the outrage forced the police to crack down on organized crime. Now they off each other with close-range gunshots, leaving the gun there when it's done. Much more tidy, people nearby complain less so the cops are less motivated to intervene.
You can't take the sky from me...
have illegal aliens living in your nearby forests dumping pesticides
What? They, like, come over illegally, buy pesticides, and go dump them in the forest?
You can't take the sky from me...
People are uninformed about issues and candidates, because that is the smart thing to do. The fundamental problem is that the cost in time and effort of me learning is spent by me, while the benefit is shared equally be the whole electorate. So with a million voters I only get one millionth of the benefit of my labor. Few people want to work hard under those conditions.
This is a well researched phenomenon known as "Rational ignorance". Google it to learn more.
Like any vision dependent on a fundamental change in human nature, your system empirically does not, and can not work. What we need is a system where people can affect their own lives. In those areas people are usually quite well informed and make as good decisions as they're capable of.
The primary way it'll improve national security is by lowering the imports, since domestic production will be more competitive when it is less threatened by the government. (And then on top of that, you can layoff or re-purpose some LEOs so they can do more productive things.) A wealthier country is a more secure one. It's own citizens become less of a threat to it, and it can afford to spend more on defense too. It's just win win win across the board.
The secondary way it works, is that it takes wealth away from gangsters (prohibition isn't exactly a subsidy for criminals, but it's a lot like one). Fewer powerful criminals in Mexico means a much more secure Mexico, less violence in the border area, etc. Plenty of security benefits will rub off on the US.
There's another way it improves national security too, but you have to look at things a certain way that I'm not sure everyone shares, so it's not as objective as the above ways. A nation is its people, so things which threaten those people (such as the nation's government putting them in jail for no good reason) is a national security threat. i.e. If we end prohibition, then the "attacks" (where citizens are suddenly deprived of their liberty) end. Think of the resources we're spending to launch and sustain the attacks (paying cops and prison guards) and defending ourselves from the attacks (paying public defenders). We could be spending that on defending the nation instead of having the nation attack itself.
There might be reasons for prohibition, but it comes at a cost and security is part of that.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
If the cigarette companies had a brain between them, they'd get behind this thing, monopolize the legal pot industry, then come up with "blends" which happen to add tobacco to the Mary Jane, making it addictive!
4. Profit!
I keep hearing this claim, that marijuana is not addictive and causes no ill effects, physical or mental...
Now here is something I don't get. In the US, if you are caught for the third time with a joint, you can go to jail for life. The REST of your life. In prison.
How do you explain people risking life imprisonment for a harmless substance? I like chocolate but if I risked life in jail for the mars bar in my pocket, it wouldn't be there. End of story. I might want to discuss how absurd the war on chocolate is, but I would argue it in public debate. Not buy a mars bar at inflated prices from some hack who has done god knows what with it then flee from the cops and cry like bitch when my ass is raped in federal jail FOR the THIRD TIME!
In Holland the drug is tolerated and it is true that its usage has NOT gone up. BUT the people who DO use it, still fit the same profile. For instance a study this week announced that mental disorders are far higher among smokers then non-smokers. Gosh, I knew some smokers in the past, no kidding. Chicken and the Egg? Perhaps, perhaps it is only the mentally unstable to smoke but do we really want people with mental problems to consume yet more drugs?
I am still convinced that the biggest argument against drugs, any drugs is the drug user himself. The smoker who coughs up his lungs, the drinker who thinks he is in control but can't keep his drink straight, the marijuana user who risks a lifetime in jail for a joint.
If we legalize drugs it should be done like sensible gun legalization. Anybody can get a gun, only one test. If you want one, you disqualify.
It says a lot about marijuana users that they claim it is less addictive then alcohol and tobacco. Both highly addictive and causing a lot of harm to society. Way to advertise yourself. We are not as bad as bad things. Not going to convince me, I don't smoke and my drinking is so moderate it barely registers. And it is me and countless other non-users you got to convince. Majority rule in a democracy remember?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Am I missing the irony pointed out a the end of the summary? An ex-employee donates some of his personal money to a cause he believes in, while Facebook (a company with a public image to maintain) decides not to take pro-cannabis ads. The two really don't have anything to do with each other, except both being about marijuana.
There is also a significantly smaller demand for cocaine and pot.
I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
Pretty much. They set up grow-ops in the backcountry, often in national parks. The mess left behind is egregious - drip lines, pesticide runoff, untreated human sewage from the camps, and because it's all illegal, there are bonus little security measures like tripwires, booby traps, and if you don't recognize the signs of human disturbances for what they represent, you'll eventually meet dudes with guns.
I don't smoke it. I don't plan to smoke it even if it's legalized. I just want to take a hike without having to watch for tripwires.
Apparently, you don't have illegal aliens living in your nearby forests dumping pesticides, trashing the place, poaching and running around with AK's. Well, it exists here in Northern California and we don't like it.
I am confused. Apparently, there is a free giveaway of Kalashnikov's to everybody illegally crossing the border, but where do your illegal aliens get pesticides for dumping?
Actually, my right to swing my fists ends somewhere near your body, though the exact distance isn't well defined.
If I swung at your nose and you dodged the blow, even though I never contacted you, you could still have me arrested for trying.
That whole "I'm not touching you" game that children play to antagonize one another will land an adult squarely in jail.
I would however propose that prohibition is what gave the mob its lucrative growth to begin with that made it a big enough juggernaut to require the FBI to stamp out in the first place.
While the 21st amendment didn't kill the mob I'll bet more money on the theory that the 18th gave it a good start.
And why should we care?
They are already selling cocaine. It has been said that pot is their cash cow funding all their other operations. Most people in the US look at pot as no different than alcohol, and such it doesn't have the same stigma as cocaine or it's derivatives. I wouldn't be surprised if more people in the US use pot than all of the other illegal drugs combined.
Legalizing pot will not destroy the cartels, but it will deal a huge blow to their revenue stream.
gimmee post #420...
Letting people smoke their pot is harmful to the rest of us THE SAME WAY letting gay people marry harms straight marriages.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
I'd imagine it massively cut down their revenues as they were forced into much smaller markets.
The laws against and campaign against marijuana are similarly the product of Puritanical nonsense
Not actually. In fact the criminalization of the demon weed marijuana took place not long after several important patents that would lead to the industrialization of hemp, which was at the time the largest domestic cash crop. Hemp fiber for paper, and hemp oil for fuel were the two biggest fears. Standard Oil, which had lots to loose from competition from hemp oil, and Hearst, who owned immense tracts of forest that he wanted to turn into paper, ganged up and made a huge PR campaign against a plant virtually no one had heard of, marijuana (but which in fact nearly everyone either grew or used, hemp.) It really is an interesting story. It shows how commercial propaganda can twist the nation's laws to protect corporate profit, and how that manipulation can ruin the lives of many thousands for 100 years and probably more.
There is nothing like a rush of incoming losers to boost the economy! Imagine all the welfare they will need, housing to live in, ect.. that you and I will need to pay for!
Probably less than what you pay right now for their housing in jail, considering drug possession makes up for about 25% of the inmate population.
Legalize it and wake up! Alcohol is much worse and people drink that like its water.. Anyone against the legalization of marijuana is against freedom and has a deep rooted hatred inside them.
Legalize the all natural plant that humans have been enjoying for thousands of years. It's an easy way to tell if someone is a fool or
only 50,000?
you cheap bastard!