Linux 2.6.36 Released

diegocg writes "Version 2.6.36 of the Linux kernel has been released. This version includes support for the Tilera architecture, a new filesystem notification interface called fanotify, CIFS local caching, support for Intel Intelligent Power Sharing in i3/5 systems, integration of the kernel debugger and KMS, inclusion of the AppArmor security system, a redesign of workqueues optimized for concurrency, and several new drivers and small improvements. See the full changelog here for more details."

Comments

First Post

[Jorl17]

All your hopes of first post are belong to me!

Re:First Post

[Anonymous Coward]

2.6.36-th post :)

Re:First Post

[Anonymous Coward]

lol.. touche my good man.

Sounds like 2.6.36 has one of everything. I'm going to have to start building my own, because I already have a kitchen sink.

TFA

[pinkushun]

The one post where 90% of /. users will actually read TFA

Re:TFA

[ArundelCastle]

But 80% of that 90% will only read The Full Changelog.

what i like about kernel releases...

[underqualified]

linus trolling on everyone that disagrees with him...

Re:what i like about kernel releases...

[Anonymous Coward]

i don't agree with you...

Re:what i like about kernel releases...

[NotBorg]

Well it would be easier to agree with him had Linus actually trolled about anything in the release announcement.

The only thing that comes close to trolling was his mater-of-fact accounting of the status of fanotify. It's not much of a troll considering that fanotify was set to be a one of the bigger bullet points of the release and got yanked at the last moment. It was worth mentioning. Also considering that it was yanked because of an oh shit late in the cycle he certainly could have been more pointed if he wanted to be.

If he were trolling it certainly was some of the weakest trolling to be had. He certainly wasn't the one using the "shit" word to describe the situation.

Fanotify disabled in this version

[Anonymous Coward]

Because of desagreement in the ABI the fanotify is disabled in this kernel.

Re:Fanotify disabled in this version

[Anonymous Coward]

How about fanboify?

Re:Fanotify disabled in this version

[xtracto]

desagreement

Shit... these kernel level nomenclatures and intricacies are so over my head.

Re:Fanotify disabled in this version

[schon]

That would be enabled by default in Mach. /me ducks

Re:Fanotify disabled in this version

[John Whitley]

Whoa. Not enough caffeine yet.... momentarily misread that as "Fanboynotify is disabled in this version." Which then had me wondering why it was posted here... O_o

Re:Fanotify disabled in this version

[CarpetShark]

Because of desagreement in the ABI the fanotify is disabled in this kernel.

I like the American Beer Institute as much as the next guy, but it's hardly a reason to hold back kernel releases.

news for gnurds?

[digitalsushi]

This is why I come here.

Actually, I'll come back in 4 hours and read the top comments not modded funny. That's why I come here.

They should make a slashdot that's just about linux projects, nasa/physics stuff, and DIY routers. Like slashdot vintage. It'd be classy. Elastic band jeans and plaid tie dress code. God I miss the good old days. *pours mad dog 20/20 on anti-static carpeting*

Re:news for gnurds?

[Monkeedude1212]

Sounds like you just need to set up a view to filter the articles you see.

Except the DIY routers, we're all the way up to DIY Internet.

Re:news for gnurds?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

I miss not having to post replies to threads in this tiny, postage-stamp form field. "Quote Parent" is just not enough feature benefit to justify how ugly and unusable this has become!

Re:news for gnurds?

[hh10k]

This is also why I come here. Except I only read the top funny comments.

Re:news for gnurds?

[maxume]

Click the prefs button on the bottom left of the comments page. Unclick the 'Dynamic Discussions' and then click save.

That seems to be the only way to access that pref, and it is sort of fun that they went ahead and created a new pref, rather than continuing to respect the 'Enable classic comments' pref.

Re:news for gnurds?

[Jesse_vd]

If you used google chrome, you could grab the anchor at the bottom of this form field and make it as big as you like

Re:news for gnurds?

[Yvan256]

I don't know which browser you use but with Safari I get a textarea roughly 855x260 pixels.

Re:news for gnurds?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or Firefox 4.

Re:news for gnurds?

[Anonymous Coward]

from the download-compile-reboot-repeat dept
Actually I built my kernel /* last night */ so when I type uname -a I get Linux Freedom 2.6.36 #1 SMP Wed Oct 20 23:56:47 MDT 2010 x86_64 GNU/Linux ...as for the term gnurds, well sir, I don't know whether to salute, bow down, be offended, or lmao. You've left me in a quandary sir!

Re:news for gnurds?

[BrokenHalo]

Come on, get real. Anyone with a 3-digit #UID is probably still using emacs as his web browser. And by the way, there's nothing wrong with that. (I was slow to catch on to Slashdot.) Now I'll just get off my own lawn...

Re:news for gnurds?

[Sloppy]

Or just go back to the 1990s and use AWeb. All textareas had a wonderful little widget that you're just click and then you would be editing your text with $EDITOR.

I wonder why this rather obvious feature never really caught on. It's pretty silly to think that any web browser can possibly ever come up with The One Right way to edit text, considering the vim-vs-emacs war still isn't over. The best answer to the question is to un-ask the question. The user has already installed their favorite editor and told the environment that it's the one to use. Let 'em use it!

Re:news for gnurds?

[larry bagina]

You can right-click the reply link and open the classic reply page in a new window/tab.

Re:news for gnurds?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

/. is rejecting my Pref settings.

Probably something to do with AdBlock+, BetterPrivacy and Ghostery. :-)

I am not giving that up...

Re:news for gnurds?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Why don't slashdot got vi bindings? Now you HAVE got me wishing!

Re:news for gnurds?

[Anonymous Coward]

It took me a few tries for the setting to "stick".

Re:news for gnurds?

[u17]

That's meaningless unless you also say what your DPI and eye-screen distance is.

Re:news for gnurds?

[arielCo]

It's all Text!
Edit textareas using an external editor, because it's all text! Right click on a textarea, select "It's All Text!" and edit the text in the editor of your choice. Alternatively, click on the edit buttons added for your convenience.

Texto
Open textareas in an external application

Textarea viEditor
Enable to edit the textarea/input element by like vim operation

I tried the first two and kept "It's all Text". Although you can conceivably use Stylish to mod the textarea to your liking.

Re:news for gnurds?

[arielCo]

Only for navigating: try h-j-k-l. Or even better: w-a-s-d :)

Re:news for gnurds?

[Yvan256]

Given that there is no fixed stamp size, it's also meaningless to say stamp-sized.
 

Re:news for gnurds?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

I already have 182 tabs opened...

Session recovery has replaced Bookmarks.

Re:news for gnurds?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Hey! Asynchronous! That's a design feature, right?

Re:news for gnurds?

[Sloppy]

Kick ass! Here I was, wondering why browsers don't have it, and didn't think to ask if extensions had it. Thanks, arielCo.

Re:news for gnurds?

[SgtAaron]

Ah, Halo, I love emacs, but never bothered to master its web browsing functions. No, for me it was lynx, and emacs was relegated to text and code editing functions. And you didn't have to be too late back in the day to end up with a uid greater than 3 digits. I signed up in 2000/2001 (can't recall precicely) and ended up with a six-digit uid :-) btw, once in awhile I still load up lynx for simple stuff, but less and less often as the weeks go by. Hmm, I'm posting this more than 12 hours after you did, so you may be the only one to see it if you manage to look!

Later,

And yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

But can it play fullscreen flash video smoothly yet? Do we have stable APIs and ABIs? Can we ditch the dozens of competing audio APIs? In other words, Loonix is still garbage.

Re:And yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words, Loonix is not ready for the mainstream desktop user.

There, fixed that for you

Re:And yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words, Loonix is not ready for anyone but obese basement-dwellers who think they are 1337 and sticking it to dah man by using Loonix.

FTFY.

Re:And yet?

[CarpetShark]

But can it play fullscreen flash video smoothly yet?

The problem that prevents flash from playing fullscreen is that it's closed source crap, not that Linux is in any way incomplete.

Re:And yet?

[armanox]

Ask Adobe if it can play Flash. It's their product after all.

Re:And yet?

[Desler]

The problem that prevents flash from playing fullscreen is that it's closed source crap

So that's why Gnash plays videos so much better? Oh wait, it's actually worse.

not that Linux is in any way incomplete.

No, the problem isn't incompleteness it's the fact that one has to traverse a jungle of incompatible audio and video APIs to make sure it even works at all across the various distributions.

Re:And yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey moron, FLASH IS CLOSED SOURCE CRAP. WHAT PART OF THAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

Open-source re implementations of closed source crap is still going to be crap because they don't know the particulars.

Now stop trolling. I know Microsoft has probably paid you to do so, but we all know that so stop pretending.

Re:And yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

haha it went over their heads

Re:And yet?

[LingNoi]

http://freshmeat.net/projects/loonix/

Loonix is a custom Linux distribution meant for server applications.

I'm guessing it doesn't play flash since it's a server distribution. Silly question really.

Re:And yet?

[underqualified]

linux doesn't have poor support for flash. flash has poor support for linux.

Re:And yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

May we conclude the same thing about iOS based on this logic, too? If Flash isn't considered 'necessary' for Linux, why should it be deemed 'necessary' for any other device or platform?

I'm still waiting to see the open source community's "Thank You!" to Steve Jobs for helping to start the demise of Flash on the web. After all - closed source is never good, so making a device that publishers want to target which doesn't allow them to use shitty flash technology is a great win for the consumer - isn't it? Or are you all just bent that Apple is succeeding in doing something you've never been able to accomplish despite all the flowery, toe-jam-eating rhetoric Stallman spouts?

Re:And yet?

[0123456]

But can it play fullscreen flash video smoothly yet?

Yes.

Well, Ubuntu 10.04 on my laptop certainly doesn't seem to have any problem playing full screen Flash video. However, flash does hog the audio so I have to kill the damn thing if I want to play sound from anything else.

If there's one valid complaint in your post it's the crappy state of audio on Linux.

Re:And yet?

[Yvan256]

If it was a Microsoft troll shouldn't it be about Silverlight and mono?

Re:And yet?

[xtracto]

But can it play fullscreen flash video smoothly yet?

The problem that prevents flash from playing fullscreen is that it's closed source crap, not that Linux is in any way incomplete.

Yup, that's 100% Adobe's fault... and also 100% Linux problem.

Re:And yet?

[abigor]

Actually, all the relevant particulars of Flash are openly available (see Adobe's Open Screen project). The big exception is Sorenson Spark, but that's already available via ffmpeg. Basically, Gnash just isn't there yet.

Re:And yet?

[ryantmer]

Wait, wait, wait. You're praising Apple for helping get rid of something closed-source? Really? Apple?

Re:And yet?

[abigor]

Yes Apple, the same company that runs this site: http://www.opensource.apple.com/ They are big contributors and users of open source.

Re:And yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Enough of Flash is an open standard for an implementation to exist on Linux that could play full screen video.

It's just that nobody has bothered to do so because arcane features nobody on earth cares about are more fun to work on.

Re:And yet?

[mcneely.mike]

But can it play fullscreen flash video smoothly yet? Do we have stable APIs and ABIs? Can we ditch the dozens of competing audio APIs? In other words, Loonix is still garbage.

But can it go a single day without getting a virus yet? Can we see the source code? Can we get something that doesn't have to be so totally locked down at work (to avoid said viruses) that everything we try to do takes 3 times as long and we cannot even access our gmail accounts?

In other words, Windows is still garbage.

Re:And yet?

[ryantmer]

Yes, they support open-source, but they are by no means supporters of openness. They certainly aren't "liberating" users by going against Flash.

Re:And yet?

[mweather]

The only thing worse than closed source is a walled garden.

Re:And yet?

[rubycodez]

it's the crappy state of both kinds of audio on Linux. that's the only place in the GNU/Linux realm where having choices don't seem to be a good idea (when they're both bad)

Re:And yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux doesn't have poor support for desktop users. Desktop users have poor support for Linux.

Re:And yet?

[abigor]

Fair enough. I was responding in the context of open/close source code, not openness as an abstract concept.

Re:And yet?

[chrb]

No, the problem isn't incompleteness it's the fact that one has to traverse a jungle of incompatible audio and video APIs to make sure it even works at all across the various distributions.

Then how come mplayer works on every common Linux distribution, and has been able to do smooth fullscreen video for as long as I can remember?

Re:And yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux sound isn't so bad if you use PulseAudio.

Re:And yet?

[ppz003]

But can it play fullscreen flash video smoothly yet?

Yes. Even on 64-bit.

http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10.html

Re:And yet?

[mcgrew]

No, he's not trolling Adobe fans (if there actually ARE Adobe fans), he's trolling Linux users.

Re:And yet?

[BrokenHalo]

Yup, that's 100% Adobe's fault... and also 100% Linux problem.

To be fair (FWIW), Adobe didn't actually create the Flash can of worms. For some bizarre reason, they apparently thought the technology was actually worth buying.

Re:And yet?

[CannonballHead]

On 10.04 and 10.10, my wireless connection flips out with full screen flash video. It's weird, and annoying.

Re:And yet?

[BrokenHalo]

flash has poor support for linux.

Exactly. And, to be honest, I don't really care. I wouldn't even consider taking the time to view a full-length Flash movie. Flash support for Linux is more than adequate for viewing crappy YouTube movie clips, which is just about all Flash is good for in the first place.

Many site designers seem to think it's cool to embed the entire content of their webpage into a Flash presentation, but I find this irritating enough that unless I have already decided I am really keen on investigating the content for some compelling reason, I will usually just pass the site by.

Re:And yet?

[fishbowl]

>Basically, Gnash just isn't there yet.

Some real progress was made in the early development of Gnash. There were people underwriting the project who were willing and able to pay a living wage to developers who could finish it, but that talent didn't really come forward. Those people have pretty much moved on to other projects. (You know who you are, and I know way more about this than I'm going to say in a slashdot post.) I was plugged into the Gnash project for a while, and I thought it was really interesting. But even a commercial venture will fail if it can't acquire talent.

Re:And yet?

[fishbowl]

"May we conclude the same thing about iOS based on this logic, too? If Flash isn't considered 'necessary' for Linux, why should it be deemed 'necessary' for any other device or platform?"

Flash isn't "necessary." What's "necessary" is a medium for interactive games and amateur videos on the web. Flash created a medium for that, it became so popular that it helped define the internet, and people want to create and consume that content. It may not be 'necessary', but then neither is corn, petroleum, or helium.

Re:And yet?

[miknix]

However, flash does hog the audio so I have to kill the damn thing if I want to play sound from anything else.

Doesn't ubuntu use pulse audio by default? It might be because of it..

I only have alsa in my laptop, no alsa config files created, and everything can play concurrently. Even closed source applications like flash and skype access alsa using dmix so they don't hog the audio device anymore.

Despite for network audio (which jack also do, and do better) I don't really see why pulseaudio is needed.

Re:And yet?

[ryantmer]

I realize I wasn't particularly clear. As long as we're on the same page now :)

Re:And yet?

[miknix]

Despite for network audio (which jack also do, and do better) I don't really see why pulseaudio is needed.

s/do\([^n]\)/does\1/g

Re:And yet?

[h4rr4r]

1. full screen flash works fine on my linux machines
2. mplayer seems never to have such issues, so more likely flash just sucks.

Re:And yet?

[h4rr4r]

No, it is flash not talking to pulse like it should. The Flash linux developer is either lazy or incompetent.

Re:And yet?

[ThatsNotPudding]

Then how come mplayer works on every common Linux distribution, and has been able to do smooth fullscreen video for as long as I can remember?

That's a bug they've been trying to chase down for years.

I keed, I keed

Re:And yet?

[Jorl17]

This isn't informative, this is IRRATIONAL SHIT. If it's closed source, an open source implementation will take longer to achieve good success, especially if documentation sucks ass. Now go play with your flash crap, as I've turned mine off for a long time now.

Re:And yet?

[wagnerrp]

No, but they did add the garbage video player, which uses software to perform scaling and colorspace conversion. Prior to that, flash was just an animation and scripting plugin.

Re:And yet?

[wagnerrp]

Unless you want to do video playback, and have to deal with the awful latency issues in PulseAudio.

Re:And yet?

[wagnerrp]

Despite for network audio (which jack also do, and do better) I don't really see why pulseaudio is needed.

For the vast majority of users, it is not needed at all. It just gives people a fancy interface where they can adjust the volume per-application like in Windows. Look! Pretty!

Re:And yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, indeed! Why would this make your little head explode? A company that does not fully embrace the GPL and fully open principles across its line of products can still advocate for open standards that everybody can implement on their platforms. It's almost like your brain only works in black and white, and has never known the beauty of grayscale, where things don't have to be "this" OR "that", but instead can be "partially this" AND "partially that".

Have they or have they not been a primary driver in the sudden proliferation of non-Flash versions of popular web sites? (Hint: They have.)

Steve Jobs is waiting for his "Thank you" at sjobs@apple.com. You can send it anytime. He might even respond from his iPad, if you're lucky.

Incidentally, how are Ubuntu and Mozilla faring with pushing things like Theora, Vorbis, and FLAC? Any major breakthroughs to report?

Re:And yet?

[Flushdot Is Bad]

look. useful.

Re:And yet?

[serviscope_minor]

when they're both bad

Both? There's far more than that (pulse, alsa, oss3, oss4, ...?) and they all suck in some form or another.

Though I like the unixy elegance of oss: cat data > /dev/dsp to play and cat /dev/dsp > file to record. Nice.

Re:And yet?

[cynyr]

to be fair, well behaved ALSA apps work great for me. Flash isn't a well behaved app as it does't seem to understand that it needs to grab a threaded instance of alsa and not just write to the device.

It sure would be nice if ssh could set up audio forwarding, and per app gain control. Other that those, not sure i'm wanting much more. Maybe a nice way to make my 5.1 sound card look like 2 or 3 stereo devices. Game audio over the speakers, voicechat over the headphones.

Re:And yet?

[Totenglocke]

I've heard this claim many a time, but I've never had issues with full screen Flash when running linux, even back in the Ubuntu 5.x days. Maybe the issue is hardware related? I've always used Nvidia cards and (since I'm a gamer and dual boot) tend to have pretty powerful systems.

Re:And yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

But can it go a single day without getting a virus yet?

Yes. I have never had one. What were you doing to get yourself infected?

Can we see the source code?

I don't know about you but some people have.

Can we get something that doesn't have to be so totally locked down at work (to avoid said viruses) that everything we try to do takes 3 times as long and we cannot even access our gmail accounts?

It sounds like a problem between you and your company. Maybe you have a performance issue and they don't want you accessing your gmail account?

In other words, Windows is still garbage.

Your words. Not my experience. One troll response deserves another.

Re:And yet?

[Bambi Dee]

Would you mind telling me what brand/model your laptop is? I've still got a desktop soundcard with 32 channel hardware mixing (so ALSA-only isn't a problem) but I've been worrying about having to use Pulseaudio one day/in a laptop.

Re:And yet?

[miknix]

Would you mind telling me what brand/model your laptop is? (..) I've been worrying about having to use Pulseaudio one day/in a laptop.

It is a HP dv6535ep, the sound card is

$ lspci | grep Audio
00:07.0 Audio device: nVidia Corporation MCP65 High Definition Audio (rev a1)

a Intel HDA with a Conexant CX20549 (Venice) chipset. No hardware mixing.

From http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/Dmix

NOTE: For ALSA 1.0.9rc2 and higher you don't need to setup dmix for analogue output. Dmix is enabled by default for soundcards which don't support hardware mixing. You still need to set it up for digital outputs.

Pretty much everything uses dmix now a days, even gnome that was using the crappy esound interface moved to gstreamer long time ago, which supports pretty much everything (alsa, oss4, pulseaudio).

Unless you need some outdated piece of audio software, I don't think you have to worry about something hogging your sound device.

Re:And yet?

[CarpetShark]

So that's why Gnash plays videos so much better? Oh wait, it's actually worse.

No, that's the point: Gnash is having to play catch-up, just like nouveau is having to play catch-up with nvidia drivers.

Re:And yet?

[Adm.Wiggin]

Hell, can Windows play flash video smoothly yet?

Re:And yet?

[Bambi Dee]

Hm, I see a lot of complaints about sound not working in this or that (say Skype or Flash) on forums. I've had hardware mixing for most of my Linux life, even with my onboard sound, so I'm not sure how tricky it gets when you *have* to rely on dmix or a sound server like Pulse. I do recall fiddling with dmix slaves (successfully, but I would rather not repeat it). I sometimes run JACK for some audio production apps and I suppose it's best with a hardware channel unto itself.

Re:And yet?

[Kjella]

Because writing implementations for the most important open source projects is necessary to get it "out there", it's a cost whoever wants to make yet another audio system takes. For the people creating applications it's another cost with no benefit.

Re:And yet?

[Zebedeu]

What I read somewhere was that flash video is much more complex than simply showing a video, because it needs to be able to composite vector animation on top of the video.

This was from a post from a adobe engineer working on flash AFAIR.

I don't understand enough about this in order to say otherwise, but compiz sure seems to be able to compose HD video on my desktop without any problems.

Re:And yet?

[mcneely.mike]

Good job anonymous coward! Ok, here goes:

But can it go a single day without getting a virus yet?

Yes. I have never had one. What were you doing to get yourself infected?

Yes. I hear this one all the time... 2 weeks later they're having to admit that they just got infected

Can we see the source code?

I don't know about you but some people have.

Have you??? Not without signing a NDA. Can you modify that windows source code and compile from your modifications? No?

Can we get something that doesn't have to be so totally locked down at work (to avoid said viruses) that everything we try to do takes 3 times as long and we cannot even access our gmail accounts?

It sounds like a problem between you and your company. Maybe you have a performance issue and they don't want you accessing your gmail account?

Good try, but no. They are just so afraid of viruses that EVERYTHING is locked down except intranet and about 10 internet sites. (But again, good try.)

In other words, Windows is still garbage.

Your words. Not my experience. One troll response deserves another.

No.. windows is just garbage, anonymous troll. Get used to it: that is why Microsoft has to bully everyone around into doing things the way they want it. Windows sucks and Microsoft knows it.

Again, good try.

Re:And yet?

[Zebedeu]

There's a solution for that. I know it because I had to fix that on both my laptop and my media center.

Unfortunately I can't tell you the solution because I deleted the link after re-installing Ubuntu 10.04 (after a botched 10.10 instal due to bad nvidia drivers) two weeks ago, and noticing that the problem was magically gone.

The solution was something about creating a config file for either pulse or alsa but I can't find it now (I still have it done on my media center). Maybe this will help you search for it.

Sorry that I can't be of more help, but now at least you know there's a solution :-)

Re:And yet?

[m50d]

IME the distros still break it for at least a few days several times a year.

Re:And yet?

[The Wild Norseman]

s/do\([^n]\)/does\1/g

Hey, would someone please call an ambulance? I think miknix just had a seizure.

Re:And yet?

[DaVince21]

But can it play fullscreen flash video smoothly yet?

Decently enough, yes. But this is hardly a kernel problem.

Re:And yet?

[larry bagina]

"living wage?" That probably means $10-$15 an hour. Fine if you're looking for college students, I guess, but it's a pretty significant pay cut for the kind of talent they probably want.

Re:And yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

meh, why would I want to watch amateur porn (with a shitty flash player) when I can just fuck an actual girl instead?

Re:And yet?

[fishbowl]

Why do you assume it was a low wage? There were some investors that were pretty interested in the project. When I was considering it, there was something in the ballpark of $75K on the table. But I wasn't willing to quit my job to do this, and neither was anyone else, and the investors moved on. I'd name the investors and everyone who was in the project, but this is the wrong place to do that, and I've said too much already.

Re:And yet?

[CarpetShark]

"What I read somewhere was that flash video is much more complex than simply showing a video, because it needs to be able to composite vector animation on top of the video."

That's not difficult; you just render to a surface, and overlay another surface. Mplayer does that with subtitles, for instance.

Did you even read Linus' release notice?

[Anonymous Coward]

fanotify syscalls are disabled because people still can't agree on the API.

Mirror here:

[D4rk Fx]

Mirror Here

Re:Mirror here:

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't download that, my virus scanner detected GNU/Linux virus!

Re:Mirror here:

[cynyr]

mmm MTU "where the men are men and the women are too". I do miss the gentoo mirror there though, i used to get almost 1MB/sec from them, but i'm no longer at NMU, so it's not worth it.

Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

Another Linsux kernel. When are you open sores fanboi's going to use a real OS like Windows 7 which uses the far superior NT kernel?

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm using it right now.

Re:Great...

[Jorl17]

Windows: "So superior, you're always an Anonymous Coward!"

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey. It's still me, Anonymous Coward. I take back everything I just said. Linux is awesome. And my penis is small.

Re:Great...

[mcgrew]

Put the chair down, Steve.

But while you're here, can you make Windows 8 so that when I cold boot the machine it comes up in the state I left it when I powered down, like Linux does? That's just one thing I'd like you guys to do to try and catch up with Linux, there are a lot more things you need to improve before you even come close.

Thanks.

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

Disregard that, I suck cocks.

Re:Great...

[siride]

Windows has done that for years, if you are referring to suspend-to-disk.

Re:Great...

[mweather]

Linux does it even if you don't suspend/hibernate.

Re:Great...

[BrokenHalo]

...so that when I cold boot the machine it comes up in the state I left it when I powered down, like Linux does?

I'm not sure what you mean here. (Maybe because I don't run Windows.) Linux always boots in a "known-good" state - which is exactly the way I like it. I really hate it when I see fag-ends or other artifacts of previous sessions appearing in a new session after reboot.

Re:Great...

[siride]

Not any Linux that I've used. Do you mean that half-baked, barely working session-management built into KDE/GNOME?

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've only seen a fag-end once, and that was at a Linux User Group. Looked like lemon party, but with more beard. Kind of ruined my linux curiousity.

Re:Great...

[wagnerrp]

Since when is Linux an operating system?

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahaha, disregard that, I suck cocks.

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

Give it up, Richard...

Re:Great...

[mcgrew]

What I mean is (and it may be a KDE thing and not a Linux thing) if I have Occular open reading Doctorow's book, and Firefox open to the local newspaper, and OpenOffice open writing a letter to grandma and shut the computer down, when I turn it back on Occular is displaying the book, OpenOffice is displaying the letter, and and Firefox is displaying the newspaper. It behaved like that with Mandrake, and it behaves like that with kubuntu. I don't know about Gnome or other desktops, I've always been happy with KDE. And that's how I like it; if I want a program shut down I'll do it myself. If it's bedtime and I'm halfway through a book and shut off the computer, I want that book to be open when I restart it in the morning.

In Windows, when you restart the machine, the only apps that are open are the ones that are in your startup directory; it closes all your programs when you shut it down, even if you haven't saved your data (although it will give you a few seconds to save before it does). And Windows isn't as retarded about making you reboot all the time as it used to be, but you still have to reboot Windows a LOT. Almost any change to almost any app requires a reboot for the changes to take effect, and often the damned thing will nag you every five minutes to reboot. Linux only makes you reboot if you're making changes to the kernel.

I used to run dual-boot back in the Mandrake days when I was heavily into PC games, and the netbook I'm using now came with Windows 7 but is no longer installed on the machine. I'll tell you, you're not running Windows? You're not missing a thing.

Re:Great...

[mcgrew]

It's a KDE feature, not sure about Gnome. And it's been fully baked and fully working since at least the Mandrake days.

Re:Great...

[froggymana]

Well, wikipedia says that it is an OS. refers to the family of Unix-like computer operating systems using the Linux kernel

Hell, even kernel.org says "Linux is a clone of the operating system Unix". Which implies that Linux is an operating system. Sure there are different distros of it that change it a little bit, but its still considered to be in the "top 3" for desktop OSs. You don't say that Windows, OS X and Ubuntu are the top 3, you would most likely say that Windows, OS X and Linux are the top 3.

Re:Great...

[Jasonjk74]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_SteadyState

Re:Great...

[Duncan J Murray]

That is brilliant. I'm replying to it so that I have a copy of it somewhere on my account.

Re:Great...

[wagnerrp]

Linux is a kernel, nothing more. The most common variant is GNU/Linux, using the GNU operating system with the Linux kernel. Many embedded systems use busybox for the operating system, with the Linux kernel.

On the opposite side, you can find Debian being run with the Linux kernel, the FreeBSD kernel, the NetBSD kernel, and the Hurd kernel.

Re:Great...

[mcgrew]

"Microsoft announces Windows SteadyState will no longer be available after December 31, 2010. Microsoft will continue to let users to download the software through December 31, 2010. Support for Windows SteadyState will continue to be available through the Microsoft Knowledge Base portal through June 30, 2011."

From the article you linked, it looks like it's part of MS's network software, not Windows. AND they're killing it in two months.

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

oh please. shut up. wikipedia is never wrong.

Re:Great...

[BrokenHalo]

That indeed is a KDE (or any other UI) thing which happens if you want it.

I prefer a reboot to leave me with no applications running, but their "state" to be recoverable if I want it.

Whether a file has changed = complex?

[CarpetShark]

What the hell is it with file notification? It never seems to be reliable or stable. There was inotify, dnotify, fsnotify, fam, gamin, incrond... and since fam/gamin always ended up using 100% CPU or causing other problems, I've just avoided the whole idea, even though I regularly think of situations that I could use incrond in.

I would have thought that setting a flag/triggering an event when a file was altered would be a matter of adding a small queue/bit system for events and about one line of code to vfs functions that modify files, but obviously not.

So... does anyone use incrond and get good, reliable results? Will fanotify help at all?

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[gratuitous_arp]

I've used incron on production boxen heavily over the past couple years and haven't noticed any problems with it, personally.

fanotify looks pretty sweet, though. Eric Paris made a sort of introductory post about it last year, which is a good read:

http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/7/24/242

Particularly interesting is his idea of adding 'rename' events. This would mean you could implement something like 'updatedb' in realtime, and always have current results for 'locate'. Not sure if the rename events made it in or not, still digging around.

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[statusbar]

Is this a case of linux kernel developers copying features that are in the Mac OS X darwin kernel?

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[abigor]

fanotify seems interesting because it allows you to watch for arbitrary events on a global basis without specifying which file descriptors you want to watch. It seems to pass the actual file descriptor back to the original object. You read events via getsockopt().

So, for example, it's very easy to say "notify me of all file open events", for example.

You can also do the opposite of a global watch, of course, and have it watch for specific file events, much like inotify.

As I understand it, fanotify came about because of vendor demand for an efficient, non-hackish way to watch for arbitrary filesystem events without ever specifying precise files, paths, etc. An example would be malware vendors.

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[gratuitous_arp]

I dunno, I have no idea what's in the darwin kernel. If you're interested, you could ask him in e-mail how he got the idea. An event for renamed files doesn't seem that difficult to come up with independently, though.

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[Late Adopter]

There was inotify, dnotify, fsnotify, fam, gamin, incrond... and since fam/gamin always ended up using 100% CPU or causing other problems

Of those, only inotify and dnotify were userspace-facing solutions in the stock kernel. Fsnotify was a backend, intentionally preparing the way for fanotify, and it was never intended to be used directly. Fam and gamin are third-party, and unless you know you specifically need them, you should avoid. Incrond is a great userspace program to use inotify... but not an alternative to anything in that list.

Dnotify was something of an embarrassment, but inotify's been with us a while and it's worked well. Fanotify is an evolution of that, to fix architectural problems that have led to race conditions and scalability concerns. Inotify (and dnotify) is being reimplemented on top of it, so if the inotify interface doesn't cause any problems for you, plan to continue using it (and incrond if you like)!

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[GooberToo]

Is this a case of linux kernel developers copying features that are in the Mac OS X darwin kernel?

Doubtful. This is really an area of natural evolution. Meaning, first to market, if that is in fact really the case, hardly means everyone else is copying what is really an obvious and extremely simple idea.

For example, planes needed to go faster. Solution, make them more aerodynamic. When everyone started making planes more aerodynamic, does that really mean everyone copied the first to do so? Hardly. It means, they all understood the problem and someone was simply first to market.

Now if you have something which indicates the APIs on OSX are particularly clever in exposing this feature and that everyone is copying those APIs, you might have a point, but I don't see you arguing that position.

Believe it or not, humanity frequently, independently, suffers from a natural progression of ideas. The fact that this occurs more or less validates no one is copying.

Case in point: I want to know when a file changes. In what ways can a file change? Those are natural progressions in seeking a solution to an extremely common problem. If you answer my question, does that you too are copying?

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[eddy the lip]

Curious - what problems did you have with inotify? I was looking at it recently to handle some screwy file sharing needs, and it seemed to work well as far as I went with it. In the actual event, we didn't end up needing it, so I never went past some light testing. But if there's issues, it would be good to know next time it comes up.

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[eddy the lip]

Y'know, it would be great if you could edit your own posts, so that when you type "inotify" but mean "incrond" you could correct yourself.

Bother.

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[bzipitidoo]

I agree. And don't forget HAL. Recently read that HAL is considered an ugly bloated mess, and will be abandoned in favor of udev. But in the meantime, what's to be done for automatic detection, mounting, and unmounting of USB and optical storage? Use a bloated desktop environment lightly, or live without seems to be the choices. I've been using LXDE on Arch Linux, and living without. Too many pieces have to work right. Need HAL or udev to detect new media, and create dynamic mount points, and mount the devices, then need file notification to pass this info on to the user's environment-- gamin is supposed to be better than fam-- and then file system permissions or names can quietly prevent it all from working. Even if all that is working, the available file managers seem buggy. After a few minutes of use, LXDE's file manager, PCManFM, seems to no longer want to select files when the user clicks on them, and will spit out error messages about devices already being mounted (What for?? Just shut up and read the device!). Thunar and Dolphin crash or freeze often. Nautilus also has problems. Are they all that bad? Maybe, but the file notification makes them look worse. Oh, and I noticed that the kernel's handling of full sized CD-Rs is broken. Use CD-RWs or DVDs to avoid that. Then there's abominations such as beagle. Nor am I fond of mlocate or the older slocate, the way they fire up daemons periodically and hammer the hard drives.

There are many other problems. On one of my computers, after I had upgraded to 2.6.34, shutdown doesn't succeed in turning it off in about 50% of the attempts. And must have HAL, or users can't do a shutdown. (Well, sometimes I hack around the problem by setting the halt command's file permissions so users can run it. Yuck.) Another of my computers uses the e1000e network driver, and they broke that in 2.6.35. Nice when you upgrade, and your networking breaks, forcing you to awkward workarounds to restore that crucial functionality as you can't do any more upgrading until the networking is fixed! Good thing that machine wasn't in a remote location.

Didn't see any mention of btrfs updates in this kernel.

And finally, video. Use Nouveau and don't have any 3D acceleration, or use the proprietary binary driver and put up with double installs of new kernels? (Install the new kernel, then reboot and install again from the console as X won't be working, so the proprietary driver can hook in with the new kernel.) Or you might be using ATI/AMD stuff which I hear has issues of its own, particularly if you try a dual monitor setup.

Until this sort of stuff is resolved, we'll never see the year of Linux on the desktop.

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[gbjbaanb]

or just copying features that have been around since Windows 2000?

Best watchit doesn't vioate some patent :)

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[Anonymous Coward]

As I understand it, fanotify came about because of vendor demand for an efficient, non-hackish way to watch for arbitrary filesystem events without ever specifying precise files, paths, etc. An example would be malware vendors.

I believe one of the bullet points of fanotify over other existing notify systems is that you can actually stop an operation if desired. For example you can not only monitor file operations but interfere with them as well.

I could be wrong but I think I remember reading something along that line. Can someone in the know tell us if the prior notify stuff included that intervening type functionality?

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[XanC]

Have you tried using a distribution, instead of throwing random versions of different software onto a system and hoping it magically all works together?

"Linux on the desktop" will happen (and does happen) through distributions.

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[abigor]

Er, "for example...for example". Great proofreading there. And I meant ANTI-malware vendors, of course...

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[Late Adopter]

The dominant application is file indexing for Desktop search.

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[0100010001010011]

OS X uses FSevents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FSEvents

There's even a cool GUI fseventer so you can track what gets written and where.

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[Yfrwlf]

And I meant ANTI-malware vendors, of course...

Same thing.

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[TheDarkMaster]

I always wonder why Linux never had an effective means of notification of changes to the file system (file created, modified, deleted, etc.) while in Windows it always worked perfectly. Why?

As an example, on my computer is common to Konqueror only show changes in the file list when I deliberately use the F5 key, even though I have iNotify up and running. Windows in turn shows any change when it occurs, without requiring the user to manually update.

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[BitZtream]

Or copying the Windows kernel, which had it before OSX existed or, copying any other OS that had it before Windows.

File change notifications aren't exactly new.

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[BitZtream]

Or venders of backup software.

Or venders of desktop software, like Google Desktop which picks up new files instantly, or iPhoto which gets new photos as they are created, or Windows Explorer which updates its view automatically when a change is made without the need for polling.

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[bzipitidoo]

You think Arch Linux doesn't count as a distribution? And you think being part of a distro just magically makes it all work together?

Perhaps you are confused about the difference between a distro and a desktop environment? I don't like how big and sluggish KDE and Gnome are. XFCE is supposed to be lighter and faster, but it really isn't. LXDE is pretty snappy, but needs more work. And they all need decent device handling, or they cannot work well. For eample, ejecting a CD by pushing the button on the CD drive is a real simple function that Linux systems still cannot do well. When a disk is present, they disable that button and force users to find and use a software ejection. For what reason? Surely not for avoiding file system corruption seeing as how it's read only! Thanks to powered trays, they can get away with that on optical media. Doesn't work on USB.

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[hotdog.sk]

I believe you meant antimalware vendors. Though I can imagine many malware uses as well...

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[Anonymous Coward]

FWIW I haven't seen this problem for many years. But then I don't use Konqueror. Maybe you should report it as a bug

(But it's KDE, so maybe you should see if there's a preferences sub-section labelled "Doodles" then a tab "Wonky blo? Bing" and check the box "Non-mahogoney envelope pre-destination: Automatic" and choose "Voluptuous" under "Pre-filtered envisualusation events". Because just doing the Right Thing by default isn't the KDE way)

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[Anonymous Coward]

Updating the view automatically already works fine. I typed 'touch BitZtreamWrong' and sure enough a new file icon with that name appears in the graphical file list I had open in another window.

The graphical file list opens an fd and says "I am looking at directory X, tell me if it updates". This new API is for saying "I'm interested in any changes that happen to any file anywhere on the entire system". Which is a bit Orwellian, but as you say could be useful for something like Google Desktop (and maybe an iPhoto-like app if you actually want your photo app adding the porn you download into your photo collection...)

Re:Whether a file has changed = complex?

[bill_mcgonigle]

fanotify seems interesting because it allows you to watch for arbitrary events on a global basis without specifying which file descriptors you want to watch. It seems to pass the actual file descriptor back to the original object. You read events via getsockopt().

Or, perhaps it will soon?:

Quoth the Torvalds:

but it may be worth pointing out that we ended up disabling the new
fanotify system calls because people were still unsure about the
interfaces. Better let the interface discussion cook a bit longer than
release with a bad interface that we need to redo.

The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[VincenzoRomano]

The problem is in the fragmentation of distributions and the fragmentation in the GUI.
Fragmentation of resources (both human and economic), I mean.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[0123456]

The problem is in the fragmentation of distributions and the fragmentation in the GUI.

True. We should only have one auto manufacturer making one model of car too, because having so many companies selling so many different types of car is terribly confusing.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[VincenzoRomano]

Or having 1 hundred, none ready for every day usage at the very best. Distros or car brands at your choice.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[at_slashdot]

What makes you think that people who work on a distribution would work on another if there wouldn't be for the one that they work on? Since they are not doing it now it means they have reasons not to do it.

That applies in corporate world too, do you think that people who work for Apple would work for Microsoft if there wouldn't be Apple?

And here we were actually talking about a new version of the kernel, not about any distribution, why do you troll?

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[Hatta]

This article is about the kernel. If you have problems with your GUI, take it up with your distro.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[Yvan256]

How about having many manufacturers procude one model of car and one model of truck? That would standardize parts and lower the cost. We get to keep competition with the multiple manufacturers and they get a better cost per part because of the higher production quantities.

Then again, if everybody sells the exact same thing, we'll probably get price collusion problems. Maybe standardize all the structural and mechanical parts and let them customize the exterior panels and interior features (A/C or not, MP3 player or not, almond crunch or crunchy frog).

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey dumbass !! Did he say ONE Linux would be better? NO !! He said it's FRAGMENTED. That means there are too many. Why does the solution to fragmentation always have to be ONE version instead?

Troll.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[jlebrech]

Linux IS the kernel. I think what you are refering to is GNU/Linux Bitch!! ;)

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[Alwin Henseler]

(cue many replies about how this is a good thing)

Agreed. If you look at how many Linux distro's there are, where they came from / how they are built, there are essentially a small number: some Fedora (.rpm) based, some Debian (.deb) based, some Slackware (plain .tar.gz), and a small number of distro's that have their own system for building packages from source (Gentoo & a few others).

Beyond that, practically all other distro's are just one of those above, with a specific package selection, a set of distro-specific patches applied to various packages, and customized artwork / default settings (like default user language). IMHO it would be a great advance if the Linux distro landscape could be reduced to just that: a small number of 'mother distros', and then for every other distro simply a pack of files that determines what makes that distro different from the one it's derived from. Distro's that deviate just a bit would have a small & easily maintained 'modification pack', distro's that move further away from their parent would have a bigger / more elaborate 'modification pack'.

That way there could be much more sharing of resources like package repositories, bug databases, programmer's time, etc, etc, versus each distro re-inventing their own wheels & having their own system for handling things that other distro's do as well. Maybe it wouldn't be possible to share binary packages (due to different compile flags & patches applied), but it could be possible to share a single build system, and a single source tree for all Linux distro's. Where each distro would consist of a set of patches against that source tree, a set of compile options, and a set of options that decide how the built binaries are divided over packages (and into CD images etc). With the custom artwork & distro-specific settings included somewhere along the build process.

And if there would ever be the chance of agreeing on a single package format, even those 'mother distros' might be integrated into one. But of course that's just daydreaming, another bridge too far that'll never happen because distro maintainers are stubborn people who want to do things their own way... (sigh)

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know a distro which is not GNU?

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[VincenzoRomano]

The problem is not the GNU collection. It's the fact that every distro team spends a lot of efforts to make it unique. Instead of making it working. Like the *BSD distros.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[0123456]

Hey dumbass !! Did he say ONE Linux would be better? NO !! He said it's FRAGMENTED. That means there are too many. Why does the solution to fragmentation always have to be ONE version instead?

Troll.

So what is the ONE TRUE CORRECT NUMBER of Linux versions? Two? Three? Six? Forty-Two?

What should be the punishment for anyone who decides to release a new distro once we have the ONE TRUE CORRECT NUMBER of distros? Burning at the stake? Removal of git commit privileges?

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[squizzar]

I use my linux desktop at work every day, and my linux laptop at home every day. My wireless router runs linux every day, and the several embedded products I'm working on run linux every day (when I haven't broken something...).

I have a car and a motorcycle that I can use to get to work or wherever every day. Neither are suitable for transporting cattle, but then that's not an issue for me. Your reasoning is that because you presumably have some situation for which no distribution fits your needs then all distributions are not ready for daily usage?

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[siride]

It's like you *almost* get that there really are only a few distros, but then miss the upshot of that. The upshot is that the hundreds or thousands of other distros are irrelevant when it comes to why, e.g., Linux graphics suck or software distribution is hard. Nobody cares or pays attention to those one-off distros or super-custom distros. They are expected to maintain their own stuff. Developers target the main distros and that's about it. Since the main distros use more or less the same software, even that's not as big of a problem as it's made out to be.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[mweather]

What would be the point of making a distro if there wasn't something unique about it?

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[jones_supa]

The problem is in the fragmentation of distributions and the fragmentation in the GUI.

True. We should only have one auto manufacturer making one model of car too, because having so many companies selling so many different types of car is terribly confusing.

But they all have the same UI...

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[Alwin Henseler]

The upshot is that the hundreds or thousands of other distros are irrelevant when it comes to why, e.g., Linux graphics suck or software distribution is hard. Nobody cares or pays attention to those one-off distros or super-custom distros.

Well, that distro's maintainers (and users) care, which means their effort is not spent on improving the distro it's derived from. Sure some fixes will make it back to the parent distro, but only to a limited degree. Also that distro maintainers have to set up a lot of things (package repositories, source control system, bug tracking system etc) that the parent distro already had in place. If the on-off distro is just a small modification, that is wasted effort no matter how you look at it.

Since the main distros use more or less the same software (..)

Yes, and yet many resources for using / maintaining that same software are not shared - more unnecessary waste.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[steelfood]

Which is why people almost exclusively buy Chevy or Ford or (insert your brand of choice here) to the point where a family will only drive Fords or Toyotas or Hyundais.

It's not nearly as noticeable though, because buying a new car happens only slightly more often than buying a new house. It's nowhere near as commonplace as a piece of consumer electronic like the PC, but the concepts of familiarity and level of comfort remain the same. People are uncomfortable with a lot of choices, to the point where they may just walk away and not choose when presented with too many. So for those choices that absolutely need to be made (like getting a car when living in a suburb), people will choose by honing in on one aspect, resulting in a sometimes seemingly illogical decision. But for choices that aren't absolutely necessary (like which OS to use on the new PC), people will more likely walk away, i.e. choose between Windows and Mac.

The point is, too many choices is not necessarily a good thing.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[Rockoon]

The problem really isnt the number of distros.

The problem from a commercial standpoint is that a binary for one distro just doesnt work on another, and even within the same distro there are frequent compatibility breaks between versions.

Add to this the plethora of windowing managers, audio stacks, and so on that the users themselves can go ahead and replace. It is at this point that you realize that you've gone well past the line where fragmentation is a valid criticism.

Nobody can point to some specific spot in the sand and say "thats where fragmentation begins" .. but what we can do is point at a specific spot and say "thats definitely on the wrong side"

I use both Ubuntu and Windows. I only develop for Windows.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[Late Adopter]

Maybe 3-5 distros work in-house on Desktop user-experience... and all of them release open source! If someone has a good idea, it will spread around. If you still have a problem with Linux on the Desktop, it's despite the size of the community, not because of it.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[BrokenHalo]

It's the fact that every distro team spends a lot of efforts to make it unique. Instead of making it working.

I respectfully disagree. The more responsible and well-established distros - by which I mean Slackware, Arch (my current preference), Debian and I guess RedHat/Fedora - are pretty solid on their quality control. They all "Just Work"(TM).

Slackware (with its team of one individual) and Arch are pretty much BSD-like in their approach to setting everything up, while Deb and RH follow a more SysV-like approach.

I won't get started on Ubuntu, because that distro just makes me irritable every time I install it. Sorry.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[Anonymous Coward]

All linux distros have the same UI too...

it's called sh :p

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[h4rr4r]

Stop releasing binaries, give us source. That solves the problem right there.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[Tetsujin]

The problem is in the fragmentation of distributions and the fragmentation in the GUI.

True. We should only have one auto manufacturer making one model of car too, because having so many companies selling so many different types of car is terribly confusing.

But they all have the same UI...

Some have three pedals, some have two. Some have a shifter on the wheel, some have a shifter to the right of the seat. The position of the horn button is not necessarily consistent. Operation of headlights, wipers, etc. vary from model to model. Some automatic transmission shifters simulate manual transmission... And shifters in general (particularly manual ones) don't necessarily all have the same layout. Where is the lever for opening the gas tank, or the hood, or operating the parking brake, power windows and locks?

I agree that lack of UI standardization is a problem in Linux, and to some extent I think it's an unavoidable problem on a system developed without any kind of central authority guiding the design of applications. But I think the car analogy doesn't support that. Cars' "user interfaces" have had decades of time to stabilize, and for a long time they have been fairly consistent... But they don't all have the "same" UI.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[Yfrwlf]

I have no idea if the parent meant it in this way, but the main problem with Linux is having the freedom, from a non-technical non-developer's standpoint (ordinary Desktop Dan), to install whatever software he wants to install. Open source projects often tell the user bluntly to "go get a distro to get our software", because of a lack of software packaging standards. Otherwise, the user is often forced to attempt to compile software, which is a time-consuming waste and isn't something Desktop Dan will ever want to do. If he's lucky, a developer will have a straight-up binary for him to run, like Firefox, Skype, Adobe, and several other vendors offer. Unfortunately again, these installers are usually fail, and will leave him scratching his head as to how to change the properties of the file to be executable, and often even when executable it fails to run due to it trying to use some other program on it instead of recognizing it as a program to run in its own right.

Linux is a battle between distro companies not caring about the most critical open source OS, cross-distro standard of all: software installation standards. It's all because distro companies have a vested interest in pushing users through their own repositories and Software Stores (*ahem*Ubuntu*ahem*). Whereas on Windows, you sadly often have more freedom IN THIS AREA (just not in many others), and can feel confident that your programs are future-proofed and will always be there for you and work, old ones and new ones, and that you have the freedom to, at any time, downgrade or upgrade to them as you wish. Unlike on Linux, where even getting a different version of Firefox installed than the one you want is a pain in the ass.

P.S., I know not ALL Windows programs will ALWAYS work in EVERY situation, but the amount of Windows program compatibility, and just the fact that installers basically always work from Windows 95 up to Windows 7, is a testament to Microsoft at least using some standards in that area. I'm sure those standards have some problems, and could be better, but the fact that users can still have access to most things is a testament to that and what good standards should be all about. What this means in Linux speak: always provide a way for the user to quickly get and install ALL DEPENDENCIES necessary for the user to be able to run any given program.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[Yfrwlf]

I should add that yes, there seems to be a pretty solid ABI for running binaries AFAIK, but even if so the main problem is the lack of installers for them. Microsoft had good ABI standards for running binaries, and installers are commonplace. That's something Linux badly, badly needs to remedy. So far, installers on Linux are horrible. They don't hook into the user's software manager. They sometimes fail at putting links in the user's menus or whatnot. They don't even add themselves to a repo list so they can check for updates with the normal system updates (even though some check themselves directly, which is okay but not ideal). Linux just needs a lot more cross-distro love in standards, otherwise it will continue to be not as appealing to developers. All you have to do if you want proof of the Linux software installation mess is go to most any Sourceforge or website that offers Linux software, and ask yourself "could my grandma install this on her system?" If that answer is no, either your gradma is dead, or Linux sucks in this area.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[mcgrew]

It's called choice. Some prefer Gnome, I prefer KDE. Many distros give you a choice of desktops, boot loaders, everything.

Microsoft is like a Model-T Ford: any color you want, so long as it's black.

I disagree with your comment, but I strongly disagree with its moderation; it is NOT offtopic. I long for the old metamoderation system, where too many bad mods cost you the ability to moderate.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[mcgrew]

Or having 1 hundred, none ready for every day usage at the very best.

Odd, I've never owned a Mac, my home is finally free of Microsoft, and guess what? I use the computer every day. Linux has never slowed me down at all; it does everything a computer needs to do, usually better than Windows.

It's ironic that KDE cold-boots in the same state you left it in when you shut it down and Windows doesn't, but you have to reboot Windows just to install an update to an application. It's extremely annoying to get up in the morning and turn on the PC just to read a little of the newspaper, and as soon as you get the browser open Windows has updated and wants you to restart. So much for its vaunted "useability".

The one thing that I really love about KDE (or rather, hate about Windows) is, on my netbook the power button is right by the escape key (bad design, Acer). It came with Win 7, and I'd hit the power key by mistake and it would just shut down, no stopping it. Id have to reboot the computer and reopen all the apps. In KDE, you're prompted with logoff, restart, shut down, or cancel when you hit the power button.

You people who say "Linux isn't ready for everyday use" are either ignorant, trolling, shilling, or some combination.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[cynyr]

how do you propose to make them all the same yet different?

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[cynyr]

And if you provide source most distros will be happy to work with you to get your softwware in. Closed software on the oterhand will get you the dev guide for distro, and a "host your own repo" sort of response. This isn't because closed software is evil or anything, simply it's a lot of work to do if you don't have source and a sane build system.

for example see handbrake in gentoo. It's build system does dumb things and doesn't use system libs, and so it's still not in yet. ship[ping bundled libs could be overlooked if they would provide them all in the tarball and not download them at build time.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[Rockoon]

So now not only do I have to contend with end users changing default packages on distros, I also have to contend with the source code they are using not even being 100% mine, also with possibly hacked up header files (to solve someone elses problem), and link against who-knows-what libraries, etc.. etc..?

Still further, I would then have to provide support so that your grandmother could successfully compile it. Oh, did you expect me to stick it on your distros repository, and thus give the program away for free? Thanks but no thanks.

Now you know why professional developers dont make things like Linux games. Your response to shortcomings that generates fragmentation is to ask for source code, rather that deal with the actual issue.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[DaVince21]

Fragmentation, or spreading? Many different people from many different distros are working on (patches for) many different pieces of software, much of which will in one way or another actually find its way back in said software's main repository.

Ie. the good ideas and improvements come from all sides, meaning software gets more attention from different perspectives. That can't be bad.

Re:The problem with Linux is not the kernel!

[Anonymous Coward]

There has to be choice. That's what makes linux great. There's competition. If GNOME loses users to KDE for some reason, they'll try to get their userbase back by implementing the features that are attracting users to KDE. Or vice versa. There isn't necessarily a lot of money involved, but there's still incentive for each DE to want more users. I would argue that this competition, along with competition from new versions of windows and mac, is a large part of what has driven linux GUIs so far.

But ...

[Osgeld]

I thought linux was up to version 10.10? (Maverick something)

Re:But ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Please for the love of everything good let parent be trolling or making an impossibly bad joke. I'd hate to think Fark has finally come on over.

Re:But ...

[Randwulf]

Ubuntu, a distribution that uses (some version) of the Linux kernel, is up to 10.10 (Maverick Meerkat). The latest version of the Linux kernel to be released is 2.6.36.

Re:But ...

[xaoslaad]

fail. You're the guy that goes into a job interview, tells them you run linux 10.10, and wonders for 3 months more why you didn't get the job. Hopefully you're joking and know the difference between the kernel and a distribution.

Re:But ...

[zach_the_lizard]

Maverick uses 2.6.35, but it's easy to get the new kernel. I've run the rc versions under Maverick and Lucid and they've been decent.

Re:But ...

[Osgeld]

parent be trolling or making an impossibly bad joke

ding ding ding we have a winner

Re:But ...

[Tarlus]

I know that the following obligatory response is a cliché, but... Whooosh!

Re:But ...

[CannonballHead]

most likely: woosh :)

Re:But ...

[Anonymous Coward]

fail. You're the guy that goes into a job interview, tells them you run linux 10.10, and wonders for 3 months more why you didn't get the job. Hopefully you're joking and know the difference between the kernel and a distribution.

.. and you're the guy that goes into a job interview, tells them you run linux 2.6.36, and wonders for 3 months more why you didn't get the job. Not being able to catch on to a joke is a serious deficiency in the work space, as it displays a lack of communication skills.

Re:But ...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not a funny joke. Not even a little bit. And you're right I have no personality. None. So what. I can be polite, courteous, professional, and accomplish the job. I don't need to laugh at retarded jokes.

Re:But ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on, why is this modded Informative? Are we really rewarding people who reply seriously to jokes now?

Re:But ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fail. You're the guy that goes into a job interview, doesn't get any joke, and wonders for 3 months more why you didn't get the job. Hopefully you're joking and know the difference between jokes and factual statements.

Re:But ...

[Randwulf]

Personally, I would have modded him "Absolutely Brilliant." But seriously, the post wasn't modded "Funny" before I replied to it, and while I assumed it might be a joke, I answered seriously because everyone is a noob at some point and it stands to reason there might be a few folks here who really don't know the difference. Treating them like second class netizens is a disservice to the Linux Community and Slashdot, IMHO. I am a little surprised I was modded up, but I'm not complaining.

Re:But ...

[Any Web Loco]

*whoosh*

Re:But ...

[Anonymous Coward]

They see me trollin'...

Re:But ...

[DaVince21]

This isn't a case of you missing the joke, but you missing him MAKING the joke. Or something.

Changelog.

[Anonymous Coward]

Julia Lawall (1):
            SERIAL: ioc3_serial: Return -ENOMEM on memory allocation failure

I guess he won't be releasing anymore albums.

Re:Changelog.

[Provocateur]

But to get an autographed copy of that CHANGELOG on ebay...

Compressed RAM?

[bluefoxlucid]

Any updates to the Compressed RAM subsystem, and is this suitable for Android and XO yet? How about Desktop Debian/Ubuntu?

Re:Compressed RAM?

[zach_the_lizard]

I've run it under Lucid and Maverick, it seemed to fix a wireless connection loss issue I was having with the ath9k driver, though it could also be due to upgrading to Maverick. There are various DRM improvements, IIRC, that might help performance a bit.

Re:Compressed RAM?

[bluefoxlucid]

Um, what does the video subsystem and wifi have to do with memory compression?

Re:Compressed RAM?

[Ant P.]

They keep bikeshedding the device file naming scheme. Last time I used it it flat out didn't work, nor did the external tools help any. Probably another few months before it becomes useful again.

Re:Compressed RAM?

[zach_the_lizard]

Um, what does the video subsystem and wifi have to do with memory compression?

"How about Desktop Debian/Ubuntu?" I read that as meaning, what does the kernel do for those two distros (and derivatives).

Re:Compressed RAM?

[bluefoxlucid]

Then you fail context, considering the post's title and the rest of the content, as well as the ridiculous notion that the kernel would do something different for Debian than for Fedora.

Thankyou!

[toby]

Now where did I leave those mod points...

"Go away or I shall taunt you a second time."

[psbrogna]

The hostility from the MS fanboi's toward the *nix fanboi's reminds me of Big Tobacco's stance toward the American Medical Association regarding carcinogenic properties of cigarettes, respectively.

Re:"Go away or I shall taunt you a second time."

[Anonymous Coward]

The hostility from the MS fanboi's toward the *nix fanboi's

Bah, both groups seem to be united in pissing and moaning in every single Apple story that comes along these days.

Re:"Go away or I shall taunt you a second time."

[Anonymous Coward]

What MS fanboys? The ones you imagined up to excuse an anti-Microsoft rant?

The two posts you refer to:

http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1832598&cid=33973294

http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1832598&cid=33973202

The first is an obvious example of reverse trolling, a lot like yours, discrediting Windows by making a stupid post from the PoV of a retarded Windows user.

The second post could just as well be from an OS X fanboy.

Or did you make the above posts for free karma points?

Linux news AGAIN?!

[Anonymous Coward]

How come Slashdot keeps posting stuff about Linux? Where are our Apple-related news? Lion, iLife '11, FaceTime for Mac and new MacBook Air notebooks were announced yesterday! We never speak about Apple it's always Linux, Linux, Linux! *

* for the slow-minded, this is a parody of the "Apple news again? We never get any Linux news!" posts. As long as it's not freakin' Microsoft, I'm fine with it.

Time to upgrade

[Murdoch5]

A new kernel version for a Linux nerd is like xmas to a 5 year old.

2.6.36 compiles with intel c

[Anonymous Coward]

damn, just compiled 2.6.36RC8 to fix suspend issues on thinkpad x200.
ps it compiled out of box (no patches) with icc and intel libraries!

the right to be scared

[G3ckoG33k]

Accroding to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TILE64 the Tilera CTO and co-founder is Anant Agarwal. According to http://www.csail.mit.edu/user/723 he is from Madras, India.

Imagine all Indian computer gurus moving back to India, backed by the wealth of Tata (www.tata.com) or the like.

Do you think China and other high focus companies have the right to be scared?

Yet, before then, show me the benchmarks

Re:the right to be scared

[not-my-real-name]

...Anant Agarwal...

Is this the new Ubuntu distribution, or what?

Offtopic?

[VincenzoRomano]

The offtopic mod is offtopic on its own!
The new kernels are OK since long now. A few new things and a lot more fixes. But what's that for if the distros are leaving it behind as well as creating a whole new mess with their idiosyncracies.

2011

[Virmal]

Finally, 2011 must be year of Linux

Re:2011

[frozentier]

It really is. By Dec 2011, 89% of computers will be running some form of linux, and Windows and Macs will be a distant memory.

Re:2011

[Tetsujin]

Finally, 2011 must be year of Linux

For me, every year is year of Linux. Well, except maybe 2004, I bought a Mac that year.

Re:2011

[Anonymous Coward]

depends how well android based smartphones and tablets do (they are general purpose computers and do count)

Lovely streamofconsciousness bollocks there.

[Anonymous Coward]

Lovely streamofconsciousness bollocks there. I salute you.

Now put your brain back in.

I'll agree, & it's what "killed UNIX" (sort of

[Anonymous Coward]

You were only modded down because you spoke the 1 thing the "Pro-*NIX/Linux Penguinistas" around here CANNOT HANDLE: The truth...

I.E. - So, see my subject-line, & recall how UNIX was destroyed by nearly the same thing you're saying (except it was @ the "kernel level", e.g.-> Bell Labs UNIX vs. BSD UNIX for example): Too many diff. versions with binary incompatibility etc..

Here @ least @ the kernel level, Linus T. controls THAT much from happening to Linux!

However/Again:

I agree with you that there are TOO MANY damned Linux distros out there (just see distrowatch.com as proof thereof). I think this actually hurts Linux to an extent by fragmenting the efforts directed to any 1 distro really...

Now, don't get me wrong - I use KUbuntu 10.10 here/2.6.35 kernel build, and I do like it well enough to use it at home daily... but, it often makes me wonder how truly great & farther ahead than it is now Linux, as a whole, would be IF they only concentrated on say, 1-2 diff. distros in total summation (e.g., say, only KUbuntu that uses KDE & regular Ubuntu that use GNOME)?

Apple Version

[neoshroom]

How come Slashdot keeps posting stuff about Linux? Where are our Apple-related news? Lion, iLife '11, FaceTime for Mac and new MacBook Air notebooks were announced yesterday! We never speak about Apple it's always Linux, Linux, Linux! *

* for the slow-minded, this is a parody of the "Apple news again? We never get any Linux news!" posts. As long as it's not freakin' Microsoft, I'm fine with it.

Here, I'll make an Apple user feel right at home:

The newest version of Linux, Snow Penguin, has been released and this changes everything! This version includes support for the Tilera architecture, a beautiful new filesystem notification interface called iNotify, Spacewarp local caching, support for Intel Intelligent Power Sharing so your computer will otomaticaly [spelled correctly] turn off unused appliances in your house to save you thousands of dollars in power bills every year, developer improvements and a revolutionary AppArmor security system. It's speedy. It works–better. See the full keynote for more details.

Re:Apple Version

[vlueboy]

Announcers need to sprinkle releases with more "This is new, magic and exciting" wording. It helps spread the news on to the masses. That is the most insightful tongue-in-cheek Apple post I've seen.

To avoid disappointment lawsuits, place industry standard disclaimers in fine prints, and you're talking more success.

Dammit...

[neoshroom]

How come Slashdot keeps posting stuff about Linux? Where are our Apple-related news? Lion, iLife '11, FaceTime for Mac and new MacBook Air notebooks were announced yesterday! We never speak about Apple it's always Linux, Linux, Linux! *

* for the slow-minded, this is a parody of the "Apple news again? We never get any Linux news!" posts. As long as it's not freakin' Microsoft, I'm fine with it.

Here, I'll make an Apple user feel right at home: The newest version of Linux, Snow Penguin, has been released and this changes everything! This version includes support for the Tilera architecture, a beautiful new filesystem notification interface called iNotify, Spacewarp local caching, support for Intel Intelligent Power Sharing so your computer will otomaticaly [spelled correctly] turn off unused appliances in your house to save you thousands of dollars in power bills every year, developer improvements and a revolutionary AppArmor security system. It's speedy. It works–better. See the full keynote for more details.

Dammit...I forgot to call it "magic."

Re:Dammit...

[Anonymous Coward]

>Dammit...I forgot to call it "magic."

you should have saved it for "one more thing"

Ready? I'm coming...

[GerryHattrick]

So what's that all about? Is it ready for the desktop yet? Will it upgrade nicely for the cousins I have persuaded to use Ubuntu, and whose schoolchildren are still puzzled?

Re:Ready? I'm coming...

[supersloshy]

So what's that all about? Is it ready for the desktop yet? Will it upgrade nicely for the cousins I have persuaded to use Ubuntu, and whose schoolchildren are still puzzled?

This is the kernel. Direct your arguments to GNOME/KDE/Canonical and so on. The kernel is what the distributions themselves are based on. Personally, I'd recommend Fedora/Linux Mint any day over Ubuntu (especially Mint Debian Edition, which is a rolling release distribution, meaning no twice-yearly, buggy upgrades!) for family usage. Also, note that "ready for the desktop" is a very relative statement. To me, it's more than perfect, but to people that want to run MS Office, Photoshop, windows/mac only niche applications, the latest games and such all natively with smooth Flash playback, absolutely not, but you can't blame Linux for that, can you?

tilera support

[Anonymous Coward]

A Google product search for "tilera" returns Decorations for a Haunted House.

Will it run under Windows 7

[Anonymous Coward]

If not, then what good is it?

Re:I'll agree, & it's what "killed UNIX" (sort

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you that there are TOO MANY damned Linux distros out there (just see distrowatch.com as proof thereof). I think this actually hurts Linux to an extent by fragmenting the efforts directed to any 1 distro really...

You don't know what the fuck your talking about. Are you saying that Ubuntu should come out with a "damned small" edition? Or a router edition? Or a ______ edition?

A large portion of the distributions on distrowatch have a narrow target niche to fill. It's not like they are all competing to be The One. Why should we limit our selves to Ubuntu, for example, if we're really interested in some non desktop stuff like running a router with ~30MB of RAM?

Really the only place Linux is really hurting is in the Desktop market. So lets look at how having around 150 desktop distributions impact that.

I'm an noob looking to try out Linux. Ten minutes later I'm downloading Ubuntu, Fedora, or something else on the top 5 list. I don't have a clue that there are 300+ other distributions out there, at best I know what the top 5 distributions are and after 10~20 minutes minutes I manage to pick one of the top 2. That's right, I'm saying that distributions not on the top 5 just aren't relevant to people looking for "on the desktop" for their OS.

There aren't "TOO MANY" distributions because it really isn't hurting anything in a significant way. Of the reasons commonly mentioned for not using Linux, "TOO MANY" isn't one of them. "My games don't work" or "My Flash doesn't do full screen" are much more likely. From an end user perspective, "to many" isn't an issue.

So how about from the development side? Ok yes, sometimes fragmentation hurts the Linux ecosystem some of the time (sometimes it helps believe it or not). But we're looking for fragmentation caused by having many distributions and specifically the bad kind and that which hurts desktop Linux.

I'm drawing a blank here because almost all fragmentation seems to be happening upstream of the distributions at the individual projects that get packaged by the distributions. That's right, the fragmentation of effort mostly happens independently of distributions.

Almost always (at least where it's significant) either A) the distribution isn't involved in the real development of the stuff it packages, or B) the development work that the distribution does do gets merged with the upstream where all distributions benefit from it. In neither case is fragmentation present on the distribution side.

The reason for the "O-M-G-! Teh Linux haz millions of distributions worth of fragmentation!!" FUD is that people genuinely don't understand how open source development generally works in the Linux ecosystem. It's crap that sounds good to the system admin type who doesn't participate in any real development effort (and thus doesn't know any better--despite probably having been told as much many times).

Thanks for the hard work.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a hell of a thing you guys are doing.

fanotify

[nikanth]

"a new filesystem notification interface called fanotify"

This code was merged, but the interface to use it has been removed, as there were some concerns. So it cannot be used right now.