Comic Sales Soar After Artist Engages 4chan Pirates

An anonymous reader writes "Steve Lieber, the artist behind the graphic novel Underground, discovered that someone on 4chan had scanned and posted the entire comic. Rather than complaining, he joined the conversation, chatting with the 4channers about the comic... and the next day he saw his sales jump to unheard-of levels, much higher than he'd seen even when the comic book was reviewed on popular sites like Boing Boing."

Comments

Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

Engaging your customer base is good for business...

Re:Imagine that!

[Shikaku]

Something the RIAA/MPAA will never learn.

Re:Imagine that!

[erroneus]

They might... they just might. The fact is, they need to read the book "Raving Fans." When your customers are your fans, they will overlook higher prices, problems with delivery and all sorts of things with the exception of poor quality and/or poor service.

Re:Imagine that!

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Engaging your customer base is good for business...

People looking for entertainment spend more money when they have more fun. That's one of the main reasons actual losses due to piracy aren't calculatable.

Re:Imagine that!

[MyLongNickName]

Engaging customer base = good. However, simply because something works on the micro level doesn't mean it scales to the macro level. I somehow doubt that having hundreds of artists flood 4chan would result in all of them getting increases in sales.

It is kind of like "if i stand up at a baseball game I can see better, therefore if everyone stands up at the baseball game everyone can see better".

Re:Imagine that!

[Allicorn]

It's not a customer base, it's a treasure island.

Re:Imagine that!

[denis-The-menace]

They already use lawyers and Congress to "engage" their customer base. why do it directly?

Their true customers are the shareholders of the companies that are member of the MAFIAA, not consumers.

Re:Imagine that!

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Engaging customer base = good. However, simply because something works on the micro level doesn't mean it scales to the macro level. I somehow doubt that having hundreds of artists flood 4chan would result in all of them getting increases in sales.

If this were a new thing you might have a point. However, in Japan they have their own equivalent of comic-con and people make their own fan-zines and sell them for a profit. It's technically illegal but they never get shut down. The reason is that excitement over a franchise is still excitement over a franchise. This was known over 10 years ago but nobody over here is paying attention to it. It's amusing to me because the same country that's known for its $4 cups of coffee is under the impression people will go to extremes to avoid paying money for stuff.

Re:Imagine that!

[Pojut]

This is one of the reasons why I release all the music I make on last.fm and in a torrent...both of which will be freely available and supported by me when the time comes to put my stuff up for sale.

Granted, I'm not trying to make a living off it, but still...the more access people have to it...

Re:Imagine that!

[DaveAtWorkAnnoyingly]

It's amazing that it's taken this long for this very simple fact to be realised.

Engage your customer base, don't prosecute them...

Make good products, the customers will come... Simples...

Re:Imagine that!

[veganboyjosh]

It seems like whenever this conversation comes up, someone posts "I would like to listen to music from artists who do this, but I can't find any" or similar.

In the interest of giving them a lead, and letting us here your stuff, care to post a link to your own work?

Re:Imagine that!

[Dalzhim]

Well you just contradicted yourself. They won't if it won't get their customers to overlook poor quality and/or poor service...

Re:Imagine that!

[jgtg32a]

>Implying that dragging people to court isn't engaging

Re:Imagine that!

[djrosen]

See link in his sig, or incase you hide them:

http://livingwithanerd.com/

Re:Imagine that!

[trytoguess]

On the other hand, Japan has what we'd consider some rather draconian copyright laws. Copying data even for personal use has been ruled infringing, and folks have been arrested for sharing television shows on P2P networks. I can't help but wonder how this might have played out in 2chan.

Re:Imagine that!

[Pojut]

Here you go. Look in the "shout" section for a link to the torrent.

It's all a combination of spacey ambient ("Transient Unknown" project), drone ("Implied Reality" project), and chilled-out head nodding stuff ("Lost on the Way to the Laundry" project). I have a LOT more than what is on there, but that's what I've publicly released so far.

Re:Imagine that!

[Dripdry]

Ah, but as shares concentrate into the hands of the few and powerful,but sales dwindle, they will either sink or go back to their customers to actually give them something they want, yes?

Re:Imagine that!

[TrekkieGod]

This is one of the reasons why I release all the music I make on last.fm and in a torrent...both of which will be freely available and supported by me when the time comes to put my stuff up for sale.

Granted, I'm not trying to make a living off it, but still...the more access people have to it...

The article had a quote by the author that he posted on the 4chan boards that really got to me:

As for putting all the pages up here. What can I say? I get that this is how things go, and I'm trying to live in the same decade as everyone else. If nothing else, I'm flattered that someone thought enough of the book to take the time to scan and post it.

From that quote, I noticed two things: he didn't expect that he would get a huge boost in sales from the event, he was just kinda resigned that you can't stop piracy. However, the most important part was the whole bit about being flattered that people liked his book. Sometimes you forget this caliber of artist still exists: the guy who cares about the work more than the money. The money is nice, and I'm happy when the artists can survive and even get rich off it. However, that shouldn't be the motivation for what they do.

So, thanks for what you do, keeping the real art alive. I went to your website, and found the links to last.fm to your music, and I will take a listen. Obviously I don't know if I'll enjoy it, but if I do, you can count me on your list of customers as soon as they go on sale.

Re:Imagine that!

[Pojut]

One other thing: be sure to listen to it with headphones! It's been mixed with that intention...you can use "regular" speakers, but a lot of the dynamics are lost.

Re:Imagine that!

[veganboyjosh]

Will check it out, thanks!

Re:Imagine that!

[Pojut]

Thanks! That's basically why I do it...it's something that I really enjoy. I make music that I personally want to listen to. While there aren't many people that share my tastes, there are at least some out there :-)

I'd suggest starting with the "Lost on the Way to the Laundry" stuff (only two tracks up there at the moment)...it's the most accessible.

Re:Imagine that!

[gumbi west]

You must be new here.

It's kind of like how you can see over the other cars if you drive and SUV. But if everyone got an SUV, then you are back in the original situation but now everyone pays more for gas per mile.

There, fixed it. BTW, what is baseball, and why don't people do it here in my mother's basement?

Re:Imagine that!

[natehoy]

If Congress is forcibly engaging their customer base, how do you propose that sales will "dwindle"?

Re:Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't prove it, but I suspect sales of the Babylon5 Direct-to-DVD release (Lost Tales) was much, much higher because the creator of the show had spent the previous 10 years engaging with his customers.

People like to buy products from people they like.

Re:Imagine that!

[nine-times]

I think you're mistaking short-sightedness, foolishness, and incompetence for malice. Mostly the MAFIAA is made up of a bunch of poor businessmen who haven't realized that this isn't the 1950s anymore.

Re:Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the link to free music!

Unfortunately we don't like the same style. I like Dance and Electronica and you... produce other stuff. Oh well. ;-)

Re:Imagine that!

[rickb928]

The ONLY reason I pay the prices to see movies in a theatre is to saturate my popcorn with advanced butter substitute. Oh, and that cheese powder.

If they screw up the popcorn, I would just as soon go to Redbox or Netflix.

And I might, just might, live an extra year. Then again, maybe not, since at home I can have a brot instead.

Re:Imagine that!

[zill]

The last time RIAA "engaged" me I was forced to pay $6000 and sign a stack of paper half my height.

Re:Imagine that!

[zill]

>implying this is 4chan

Re:Imagine that!

[AltairDusk]

I'm curious do you say this because a lot of people tend to have better quality headphones than computer speakers or do the headphones still make a big difference even if a high quality speaker setup is used?

Re:Imagine that!

[nine-times]

Well, to correct myself, they are malicious, but the malice is in structuring all of their business deals to rip *everyone* off. I just don't think the anti-piracy campaign is a new or interesting form of malice, but rather a failure to understand the position their industry is in.

Re:Imagine that!

[Pojut]

For what I make, I'd take a crappy set of headphones over a nice set of speakers any day. The way textures are layered and placed, a LOT of the directional dynamics rely on having speakers strapped over or in your ears. You can listen to it through regular speakers just fine, but you'll be missing out on a LOT of the details...even on a high-end set (again, it's all about layering and positioning.)

Re:Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

Dang. I didn't want to post AC.
Second attempt:

I can't prove it, but I suspect sales of the Babylon5 Direct-to-DVD release (Lost Tales) was much, much higher because the creator of the show had spent the previous 10 years engaging with his customers. - People like to buy products from people they like.

Re:Imagine that!

[Tumbleweed]

>> Something the RIAA/MPAA will never learn.
> They might... they just might.

This depends entirely on what you think the RIAA is doing. I don't believe, based on their activities, that they are interested in merely increasing profit. They seem to be about _control_ of the content. Their long-term goal is increasing profit, sure, but I'm pretty sure they want to entirely control the content, end-to-end, for their long-term benefit.

You listen to a song on the radio, the ratio station pays, and you probably pay for the ability to listen to it digitally, too. You hear Happy Birthday at a birthday party, somebody's gotta pay. You want to use a 5 second snippet of a song on your kid's soccer game video, you gotta pay. You play grandma's favorite song at her wake, gotta pay. Can't read the lyrics online unless you pay. Want to cover someone else's song in a free video online? Show us the money. Sample a song with your smartphone so you can go buy it online - gotta pay for that sample before you can go buy the song. Sorry, buy the right to play the song for your own individual self on that particular device you downloaded it to. Gotta pay, can't move it to another device, no stripping the DRM off it so you can even MOVE it to another device. Gotta pay.

BITCH BETTER HAVE MY MONEY!

Re:Imagine that!

[Pojut]

That's exactly why I make it, though! It's not impossible, but finding the kind of stuff that I like can be quite a chore. I finally broke down and decided to just make it myself. I played Clarinet, French Horn, and Piano when I was younger, so I already understand music theory and structure...all I had to do was learn how to use the tools, and away I went!

Besides, considering what I like to listen to is such a small niche, I felt I should contribute something back to the subculture that has given me so much.

Re:Imagine that!

[ThatMegathronDude]

You can get a relatively cheap pair of headphones that will isolate well, thus reducing the noise floor in your environment, or you can spend thousands building a high quality stereo in an insulated room that is set aside for listening.

Which one do you think most people have access to?

Re:Imagine that!

[mcgrew]

Or the forward to any of Cory Doctorow's books. From Makers:

There's a dangerous group of anti-copyright activists out there who pose a clear and present danger to the future of authors and publishing. They have no respect for property or laws. What's more, they're powerful and organized, and have the ears of lawmakers and the press.

I'm speaking, of course, of the legal departments at ebook publishers.

These people don't believe in copyright law. Copyright law says that when you buy a book, you own it. You can give it away, you can lend it, you can pass it on to your descendants or donate it to the local homeless shelter. Owning books has been around for longer than publishing books has. Copyright law has always recognized your right to own your books. When copyright laws are made -- by elected officials, acting for the public good -- they always safeguard this right.

But ebook publishers don't respect copyright law, and they don't believe in your right to own property. Instead, they say that when you "buy" an ebook, you're really only licensing that book, and that copyright law is superseded by the thousands of farcical, abusive words in the license agreement you click through on the way to sealing the deal. (Of course, the button on their website says, "Buy this book" and they talk about "Ebook sales" at conferences -- no one says, "License this book for your Kindle" or "Total licenses of ebooks are up from 0.00001% of all publishing to 0.0001% of all publishing, a 100-fold increase!")

I say to hell with them. You bought it, you own it. I believe in copyright law's guarantee of ownership in your books.

So you own this ebook. The license agreement (see below), is from Creative Commons and it gives you even more rights than you get to a regular book. Every word of it is a gift, not a confiscation. Enjoy.

What do I want from you in return? Read the book. Tell your friends. Review it on Amazon or at your local bookseller. Bring it to your bookclub. Assign it to your students (older students, please -- that sex scene is a scorcher) (now I've got your attention, don't I?). As Woody Guthrie wrote:

"This song is Copyrighted in U.S., under Seal of Copyright #154085, for a period of 28 years, and anybody caught singin' it without our permission, will be mighty good friends of ourn, cause we don't give a dern. Publish it. Write it. Sing it. Swing to it. Yodel it. We wrote it, that's all we wanted to do."

Oh yeah. Also: if you like it, buy it or donate a copy to a worthy, cash-strapped institution.

Why am I doing this? Because my problem isn't piracy, it's obscurity (thanks, @timoreilly for this awesome aphorism). Because free ebooks sell print books. Because I copied my ass off when I was 17 and grew up to spend practically every discretionary cent I have on books when I became an adult. Because I can't stop you from sharing it (zeroes and ones aren't ever going to get harder to copy); and because readers have shared the books they loved forever; so I might as well enlist you to the cause.

Emphasis mine. Oh, and BTW, the book is available for free at the linked page, in many ereader formats. It's a pretty good read, except he uses too many hyphens (parking-lot, shopping-center, etc)

Re:Imagine that!

[nine-times]

The same can be said of producing a high-quality product. Producing a high-quality product will be much less impressive if everyone produces high-quality products, but that doesn't mean its a bad idea.

And who says we need this to scale? If a bunch of artists producing good products and engaging with their customers can't scale, then it's because the market isn't big enough to support them all. Oh well, too bad. Looks like we'll only get the artists that we need, and we won't have an enormous bloated bureaucratic cartel that attacks its own customers. What a shame.

Re:Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

reply back in a few days and tell us how much your sales increased after engaging us here. seriously.

Re:Imagine that!

[Local ID10T]

I can't say that I'd go so far as to join a conversation on 4-chan, but it's not hard to understand that talking to your fans instead of bashing them is the better sales strategy.

Re:Imagine that!

[mcgrew]

here's a start.

Re:Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

Something the RIAA/MPAA will never learn.

Typical, inconsistent pro-pirate rant.

The bands are the ones who engage with their customers. So basically the pirates are saying, we pirate because we love what they do and because they engage us as ever event we attend.

Please stop with the make believe reasons to justify piracy.

Re:Imagine that!

[Gilmoure]

Actually, once I've interacted with a web comic artist online, particularly with email or facebook (I don't go to Cons or other places where I'm likely to have to deal with people in the flesh), I'm way more likely to buy their merchandise and hit their pay-pal button. The authors go from being a blank face to being an individual.

Re:Imagine that!

[socz]

Somewhat related, I finally posted 4 of almost complete songs on my blog if you or anyone else is interested! One day I'll finish them... one day!

And on another note, I found a bag of tapes that have the other part of the songs lol. But now I don't even have a tape player, so I'll have to go dig one up from??????

Re:Imagine that!

[Pojut]

Nice, I'll be sure to check it out when I get home! I love discovering "at-home" musicians...most of what I listen to nowadays is made by people like that.

Re:Imagine that!

[trapnest]

>implying it's not

Re:Imagine that!

[AltairDusk]

Interesting, I hadn't thought about the placement of the sound source. I'm not an audiophile by any means but I do try to make sure I have decent speakers and headphones available as I love music. I'll check it out when I'm home sometime, thanks!

Re:Imagine that!

[digitig]

You must be new here.

It's kind of like how you can see over the other cars if you drive and SUV. But if everyone got an SUV, then you are back in the original situation but now everyone pays more for gas per mile.

There, fixed it. BTW, what is baseball, and why don't people do it here in my mother's basement?

But they do drive SUVs in your mother's basement? That's a hell of a basement!

Re:Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why yes, yes it is. Politeness and courtesy can work wonders. (Even with people that you'd have a good reason to have issues with.)

Yet most businesses would rather enrage their customers instead. Following the more typical model, the author would have been a dick and eventually get his internet DoS'd.

Maybe business majors and legal types should do a case study of stuff like this and learn something.

Re:Imagine that!

[Pharmboy]

People like to buy products from people they like.

Steam / Valve is one of the best examples I can give. I would rather pay $5 more and get it from Steam than on the shelf. Granted, I would be getting better value for that $5, with automatic updates, automatic install and configure and the ability to easily play the game on more than one computer as long as I only played on one at a time.

Re:Imagine that!

[kernelphr34k]

If its good people will buy it. If utter sh*t, we wont buy it. Same goes for movies, games etc.

And RIAA/MPAA will never learn as they are not helping the artist, but putting more $$ into their own pocket.

Re:Imagine that!

[cayenne8]

"One other thing: be sure to listen to it with headphones! It's been mixed with that intention...you can use "regular" speakers, but a lot of the dynamics are lost."

This just struck me as kind of curious. Why would you mix for headphones primarily?

Is it because more people today don't invest a decent amount of money for a good home system with quality amps and speakers? Is the majority of the audience (granted, I'm a bit older) only listening to things on cheap earbuds on iPods? I prefer to get as good a copy as I can for the home system, then move to a lossy format for transportability for listening to the iPods which are only for poor listening environments like the gym, the car, or on the streetcar..etc.

Just curious as to why you specifically mix for headphones. Would a good stereo mix for good home system not sound as good on quality headphones or earbuds?

Re:Imagine that!

[h4rr4r]

Baseball is an old boring game that is almost exactly not like cricket.

Re:Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

They have learned, they've just learned the wrong way. Viral videos, torrents posted by music execs; they're in the "pirate" community, and manipulating it to increase their sales. They're just not smart enough to know that eventually the masses will wise up and stop falling for their ruse.

Re:Imagine that!

[Intrinsic]

This is one of the reasons why I release all the music I make on last.fm and in a torrent...both of which will be freely available and supported by me when the time comes to put my stuff up for sale.

Granted, I'm not trying to make a living off it, but still...the more access people have to it...

The article had a quote by the author that he posted on the 4chan boards that really got to me:

As for putting all the pages up here. What can I say? I get that this is how things go, and I'm trying to live in the same decade as everyone else. If nothing else, I'm flattered that someone thought enough of the book to take the time to scan and post it.

From that quote, I noticed two things: he didn't expect that he would get a huge boost in sales from the event, he was just kinda resigned that you can't stop piracy. However, the most important part was the whole bit about being flattered that people liked his book. Sometimes you forget this caliber of artist still exists: the guy who cares about the work more than the money. The money is nice, and I'm happy when the artists can survive and even get rich off it. However, that shouldn't be the motivation for what they do.

So, thanks for what you do, keeping the real art alive. I went to your website, and found the links to last.fm to your music, and I will take a listen. Obviously I don't know if I'll enjoy it, but if I do, you can count me on your list of customers as soon as they go on sale.

My sentiments exactly. You know the U.S. has fucked up priorities when the majority of the population puts the focus on benefits and returns as apposed to allowing your good will and creativity to drive your living. Money is a byproduct of what you do that benefits the human race.

Re:Imagine that!

[zill]

>implying implications

Re:Imagine that!

[Pojut]

From another post in this thread:

For what I make, I'd take a crappy set of headphones over a nice set of speakers any day. The way textures are layered and placed, a LOT of the directional dynamics rely on having speakers strapped over or in your ears.

You can listen to my stuff on "regular" speakers, but it will just sound like a muddled mess. I enjoy playing with textures and their placement on the soundfield (as well as how they overlap or are overlapped by other sounds)...because of this, headphones are the only way to go by default. I don't apply this line of thinking to all music, just the music I put together :)

Re:Imagine that!

[drinkypoo]

Steam / Valve is one of the best examples I can give. I would rather pay $5 more and get it from Steam than on the shelf.

Are you getting paid to spew this bullshit? I have non-Steam games which autoupdate, "automatic install" is a lie, automatic configure is too (and I speak from experience) and every game I own can be installed on multiple computers.

Steam is an attack on First Sale law.

Re:Imagine that!

[llamapater]

i would die a happy man if 4chan became some kind of celebrity lounge thing

Re:Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's amusing to me because the same country that's known for its $4 cups of coffee is under the impression people will go to extremes to avoid paying money for stuff.

I don't think it's that at all. The "problem" is that if artists start telling everyone to download their music for free and come to the concert and then they start selling out concert venues and making money, that's great for the artist but terrible for the record company. Indeed, it makes the record company irrelevant -- who needs a record label if you're in the business of selling concert tickets rather than recoded media, and giving away recordings on the internet (assuming you're any good) gets you better promotion for free than the labels give in exchange for your first born?

Re:Imagine that!

[DryGrian]

Cory Doctorow is one of my favorite modern sci-fi authors, and I would have never heard of him if he hadn't put his work on Feedbooks for free.

Re:Imagine that!

[I(rispee_I(reme]

Granted, I would be getting better value for that $5, with automatic updates, automatic install and configure and the ability to easily play the game on more than one computer as long as I only played on one at a time.

Not only that, but they protect you from cheaters even on during LAN play by requiring additional purchased copies for each computer. No other game delivery service can claim that*. Wotta bargain! ;)

*Except those that can.

Re:Imagine that!

[Hadlock]

I'm not being paid either, and think Steam is the greatest thing since boiling water. I simply don't buy games unless they're released on steam. In your 20's you move so many times its difficult to keep track of all your physical game copies. When you finally settle down and Have A Life, its nice to know that when you click on a game, it'll load first time. I'm too busy to keep up with patches on my own.

Re:Imagine that!

[zaphod777]

Every Bad Religion Album is available for free streaming on their site http://www.badreligion.com/albums/

Re:Imagine that!

[mapkinase]

Ah! Modern fairy tails...

Re:Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

... I can have a brot instead.

A Mandelbrot?

Re:Imagine that!

[Pharmboy]

Honestly, if 4 people are playing on a LAN, then yes, they should have 4 paid for copies. That isn't unreasonable.

Re:Imagine that!

[Pseudonym Authority]

>>#33989444
Nice trips, but check out my dubs.

Re:Imagine that!

[uninformedLuddite]

Yeah but it's all down to the training. I am sure that it wouldn't take long to make the same herd think that $4 a cup coffee is a sin and an Iranian plot

Re:Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

just facebooked this, with the link intact.

Re:Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

I feel sorry for Mr. Lieber; He's probably going to get sued by the *IAA for aiding and abetting piracy!

Re:Imagine that!

[drinkypoo]

I'm too busy to keep up with patches on my own.

Anyone too busy to patch a game is too busy to play games on a PC, buy a console. Especially since all or at least virtually all games with frequent updates have autoupdate, or at least update notification. Of course, console games have updates too, but they tend to have autoupdate these days. And since the complaint is clearly about time spent and not about downloading, it's a bullshit excuse. Patching takes moments of actual user time, and is infrequent.

Re:Imagine that!

[noidentity]

No, they engage their customer base, just in the wrong setting (court room).

Re:Imagine that!

[KDR_11k]

with the exception of poor quality and/or poor service.

Sega can attest that they will overlook even that.

Re:Imagine that!

[KDR_11k]

It's not unreasonable but it's ineffective. When a bunch of friends come together to play games that's the best possible atmosphere you can have for introducing a new game to them and if your game requires each of them to own a copy they'll probably just fall back to something everybody already has and played to death.

Re:Imagine that!

[PatrickThomson]

Oh please, that's asinine bullshit from someone without ties. When your free gaming time drops from 80 to 5 hours a week and your disposable income goes up by a factor of 10, that 20 minutes of patch hunting and firewall configuring is worth paying to avoid. Oh no, I can't sell my game collection! Guess I'd better keep on washing my toilet paper and eating from wheelie bins until I make up my deficit.

Re:Imagine that!

[Patch86]

The concept of engaging your fans/customers is hardly a new thing. It's the reason Terry Pratchett blogs regularly, the reason Star Trek has conventions (complete with unlicensed fan fiction and poorly made knock-off fancy dress), and the reason why 99% of celebrities post to Twitter. Go back a century or so, before the rise of the marketing department, and it was pretty much the only method companies used to advertise their wares.

Old fashioned concepts, such as making your product as good as you can, and respecting your customers, and dealing with people like they're proper people, are all cliche for a reason- they're good, they work, and they've always worked. And they scale perfectly well too.

The artists associations (and other similar "industry bodies") seem to have completely disregarded all the lessons above. They want their customers to act differently, to want things they don't want, and to give them money in new and exciting ways that they've never had to before. It's the behaviour of a monopolist.

They're acting like monopolists, but they've lost their monopoly. They could revert to tried and tested customer-winning behaviours. Instead they're haemorrhaging customers who want what they're not offering.

Chap from TFA has demonstrated that constructive, peer-to-peer communication is a great way to get free publicity and make himself some new fans. The RIAA will either adopt the same attitude, or (after a slow and painful (for everyone involved) decline) be replaced by someone that does.

Re:Imagine that!

[drinkypoo]

You'll miss your rights when they're gone. Keep spending money to have them taken away from you and see what happens. Those who would give up their rights because they are lazy are bitches, a wise man almost said that once.

Re:Imagine that!

[theaveng]

>"I would rather pay $5 more and get it from Steam... getting better value for that $5"

I'd say you're getting less value. Mainly because you can't sell the game if you get tired of it, or if you didn't like it. For example I bought Final Fantasy 10-2 on Disc, beat it, decided it wasn't that great, and sold it. Not only did I recoup my money, I made a 5 dollar profit.

You can't do that with Steam or any other non-physical game.
I'd have been out 45 dollars.

Re:Imagine that!

[MaskedSlacker]

Mandelbrat is Soylent Green!

Re:Imagine that!

[CAIMLAS]

Maybe. There's also the possibility that the comic had good sales simply because it was placed on 4chan, and not because he intervened. Isn't that the prevailing slashdot argument - that piracy leads to increased sales in general?

Re:Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

How is it a lie? I press install, boom, it's done. No CDs. No CD keys. Steam Cloud means I don't have to worry about screwing with my keys and whatnot again through formats/multiple installs. Steam's sales are (usually) better than the once-in-a-blue-moon mini sales that retailers have for the games that no one plays anyway - like Blue Dragon.

As for autoupdate in other games, it's usually VASTLY slower than Steam's services. I have FIOS and get 3.8 MBPS EVERY update, EVERY Install etc. on Steam. I have yet to encounter a non-steam game where I can actually utilize my speed in auto updates.

In all honesty, other download services and physical copies feel inferior to using Steam. I'm buying less and less non-Steam games just because Steam is better in almost every regard.

Re:Imagine that!

[Pharmboy]

I haven't had any luck selling used PC games anyway, and I used to own a freaking pawnshop and even put them on Ebay. Used PC games are not the greatest selling item. Granted, I tend to hold on to games longer than many people, so they are pretty old when I get done.

Console games are a better medium to deal with used.

Re:Imagine that!

[Pharmboy]

I have 50 steam games, all of them were two clicks and they installed in the background. In spite of dumb moderating, it is a fact. Almost every game I have bought auto-configures (Steam doesn't have as much control over that). I might tweak stuff but it runs fine on first click. And of course I'm not getting paid, at to even state so is pretty much FUD. MANY of us appreciate Steam and love the service. It isn't perfect, and YOU might not like everything about it, but many of us DO. They open their SDK up for mods, if you buy a bulk package that has a game that you already own, you get to GIVE the extra to a friend instead of just sucking it up.

Do you lose First Sale? Yes. Guess what, PC games don't resell for shit unless they are still quite new, so I don't really care, and I don't remember trying to gloss over or hide that fact, nor does Steam. If you want games you can buy and sell used, buy a console or stay off Steam, no one is making you use the service.

Re:Imagine that!

[drinkypoo]

Do you lose First Sale? Yes. Guess what, PC games don't resell for shit unless they are still quite new, so I don't really care, and I don't remember trying to gloss over or hide that fact, nor does Steam. If you want games you can buy and sell used, buy a console or stay off Steam, no one is making you use the service.

I lose First Sale if everyone else buys Steam-powered games and makes them more popular, too. Meanwhile you are proselytizing in its favor and saying things which simply aren't true (thanks for backpedaling on autoconfiguration though.)

Re:Imagine that!

[Heir Of The Mess]

Dude, you'll attract the wrath of the fans of steam. I travel so much I'm practically homeless. I have computers for a temporary amount of time. Steam is a god send, I log onto the computer, I install steam, my life's collection of games are there. Any game that isn't on steam is dead to me now.

Re:Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

I won't buy the album... ...but I'll go to the concert, buy the t-shirt, hand drinks to the band, take my friends to the concert, make them buy the t-shirt and buy the band drinks, give 'em a place to stay if necessary. All of these are things the record company is not involved in, because they can't easily control them.
If they release their music on their own label I will buy the album.

Re:Imagine that!

[ultranova]

Something the RIAA/MPAA will never learn.

The RIAA/MPAA aren't artists, they're middlemen. Artists directly engaging their customers is the *AA's worst nightmare, since it makes them unnecessary. That's why they fight all alternative forms of distribution tooth and nail.

Re:Imagine that!

[drinkypoo]

Dude, you'll attract the wrath of the fans of steam.

Clearly I already have done. However, my wrath over being denied my rights is greater than your wrath if you cannot play your game. Any game on steam is dead to me now; and further, I will campaign against it.

Re:Imagine that!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should i care if you can sell your games or not? I don't sell games. I don't sell books. I don't sell stuff that i buy. I'm not someone like you, who can't decide what he wants and keeps buying and selling. If i buy something i buy it for life, or until i lose it. That's why Steam is great. I have lost many CD-s but not one Steam game.

Re:Imagine that!

[Dashiva Dan]

Hehe, I used a mate at work's steam account to install Borderlands on 2 computers at my house, and coop played over LAN. All while my mate played his original copy online.
I later bought my own copies, however Steam allowed me (through breaking the rules, sure) to try the full game in coop (LAN only) mode just fine.
If I wanted I could have never bought the game and still be playing it on LAN without ever have paying for it.
Any new game I want to buy I can download to both machines, go to offline mode, and test out coop before buying another copy, and I can use my mates Steam account to try out any game's he's bought before buying them myself.
Not saying you should do this, or that it's legal, but it's both as legal and possible as the afformentioned 1 copy LAN parties were. Not reccomending you do it, but

Re:Imagine that!

[I(rispee_I(reme]

What if they're somehow playing on a split-screen?

Should I have ponied up for three extra copies of Mario Kart and Goldeneye, too?

Re:Imagine that!

[Pharmboy]

As a side note, Steam discounts 4 packs of games for their multiplayer games. And they have frequent "free weekends". And frequent 50% or more sales. And guest passes. And you can play them in internet cafes if you like. And yes, it is possible (and someone pointed out) to work around their DRM, which is weaker than most and they don't care (Gabe has stated that piracy isn't in his top 5 concerns).

It isn't perfect, but they are more friendly than anyone else for trying out games. Most companies simply tell you to buy it, or if you MUST, then first read the reviews from "objective" gaming sites. Yes, that is a joke.

Good?

[whisper_jeff]

4chan can use their powers for good?

Um... I just don't know how to process that information...

Re:Good?

[jack2000]

You do know 4chan has a big comics board right? People on it are pretty heavily into comics. If the world is out that the author cares enough to discuss with his fans the non hardcore fans will hear good things from the hardcore crowd and also buy.

Re:Good?

[jollyreaper]

4chan can use their powers for good?

Um... I just don't know how to process that information...

4chan strikes me a bit more like the classic greek gods, capricious, capable of granting blessings and curses on a whim.

Re:Good?

[BJ_Covert_Action]

Not to mention, way too obsessed with sex and the human form.

Re:Good?

[Anonymous Coward]

4chan strikes me a bit more like the classic greek gods, capricious, capable of granting blessings and curses on a whim.

Along with a steady dose of bestiality and incest.

Re:Good?

[X_Bones]

4chan can use their powers for good?

4chan isn't just /b/ . Some of its less-popular boards like /co/ (the comics board, where this took place) actually have, on occasion, informative and insightful discussions.

Re:Good?

[Even on Slashdot FOE]

Well, he did say Greek gods, amirite?

Re:Good?

[elrous0]

They've done it before (with the Scientologists).

Re:Good?

[Culture20]

Not to mention, way too obsessed with sex and the human form[?].

You weren't reading the same greek myths I was reading. Beams of light, bulls, birds, everything but human.

Re:Good?

[Mashiki]

Along with a steady dose of bestiality and incest.

The classic greek gods got on with a lot of that anyway.

Re:Good?

[euxneks]

4chan can use their powers for good?

Um... I just don't know how to process that information...

4chan strikes me a bit more like the classic greek gods, capricious, capable of granting blessings and curses on a whim.

Just don't tell them that.

Re:Good?

[Dalzhim]

Quote-worthy.

Re:Good?

[circletimessquare]

what if i sacrifice my goat?

will 4chan bless me with more rain if i sacrifice my goat?

Re:Good?

[HappyHead]

Yes, but what did they _do_ with those Beams of light, bulls, birds, showers of gold, swans, and other things? They obsessed over the human forms of mortals. In much the same manner that 4chan does...

Re:Good?

[Altus]

Gods appearing as non humans and copulating with humans.

Maybe your not reading the same 4chan that I am.

Re:Good?

[hedwards]

So a troll of my troll is my friend? Or is that more like when a couple of barons of hell are going at it in Doom and you wait around to finish the winner off with your shotgun?

Re:Good?

[linzeal]

Replace Gods with Furries, there fixed it for you.

Re:Good?

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm.. except they tend to do that on a semi-regular basis.

Project Chanology?
Getting various animal-torturers located and arrested?

No, no, let's all just focus on the absolute worst, and completely disregard the good.
Just like news stations!

Re:Good?

[Anonymous Coward]

Even /b/ can do good. They've baited pedos before now (brb church)

Re:Good?

[Anonymous Coward]

They have, actually. There was a slashdot article about it a few months back: some old veteran guy got himself a great (birth?)day.

Re:Good?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the joke.

Re:Good?

[Steauengeglase]

They've been Scientology hell haven't they?

Re:Good?

[clone53421]

But admittedly somewhat less capable of doing anything about those.

Re:Good?

[the_hellspawn]

we're not your personal army newf*g. Sorry couldn't resist LOL1

Re:Good?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention, way too obsessed with sex and the human form[?].

You weren't reading the same greek myths I was reading. Beams of light, bulls, birds, everything but human.

and that's unlike 4chan how.... ?

Re:Good?

[trapnest]

I'll ask. http://boards.4chan.org/r9k/res/11657768

Re:Good?

[Anonymous Coward]

Easily the best description of 4chan ever.

Re:Good?

[Arancaytar]

4chan strikes me a bit more like the classic greek gods, capricious, capable of granting blessings and curses on a whim.

Not to mention perverted.

Re:Good?

[trapnest]

All they said was: Anonymous 10/22/10(Fri)17:03:50 No.11657799 Slashdot: irrelevant since the early 2000's

Re:Good?

[SharpFang]

4chan is fundamentally Chaotic. Being consistently evil is far too... consistent for them.
So from time to time they pull out a stunt like making an awesome birthsday party for a WWII veteran.

Re:Good?

[icebraining]

Chanology is more /i/ than /b/.

Re:Good?

[gman003]

4chan is Chaotic Neutral. They're not in it for good OR evil, they're just in it "for teh lulz".

Re:Good?

[Anonymous Coward]

4chan strikes me a bit more like the classic greek gods, capricious, capable of granting blessings and curses on a whim.

Along with a steady dose of bestiality and incest.

That would require having sex, something internet warriors don't do.

Re:Good?

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't we forgetting something here? I was to believe 4chan consisted of hackers on steroids. Surely they could mastermind some kind of massive stealing of creditcard numbers and buy the book for lots of unsuspecting victims?

Re:Good?

[Anonymous Coward]

you haven't ever been into /d/ have you?

Oh my, what dramatic neverbefore seen turn of even

[jack2000]

Talking with your userbase boosts sales. News at eleven.

to be fair

[Anonymous Coward]

These days Cory and teh boingboing gang will plug anything

I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[feepness]

Those with high sales would see them reduce, and relative unknowns would see them increase.

Thus the resistance at the high end, and embracing at the lower end.

Re:I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have any actual evidence that high sales have reduced because of "piracy"? Such a thing always seems assumed and never clearly documented (as this story documents the increase in sales following "piracy").

Re:I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[feepness]

Do you have any actual evidence that high sales have reduced because of "piracy"? Such a thing always seems assumed and never clearly documented (as this story documents the increase in sales following "piracy").

Nope. I'm just theorizing in a random comment on a message board.

It is, unfortunately, difficult to prove in an existing high sales environment.

I "dig" the "quotes" on ""piracy"", though.

Re:I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[erroneus]

Are you assuming this or do you have data to back this up?

"Piracy" (by which I mean copyright infringement) has many variables associated with the rate and amount of infringement activity. Some of these are ease of copying, price of legal content, restrictions on legal content and more.

Furthermore, it seems no one has ever produced any hard evidence that shows exactly what connections, if there are any, exist between piracy and sales "losses." Lost sales are a negative and it is pretty difficult to prove a negative. One would have to have access to alternate time lines to know for sure. Thus any estimated losses due to piracy is always a completely wild guess.

Re:I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[skuzzlebutt]

Joe Konrath did some experimenting earlier this year, and found evidence of correlation...if I remember right, he put all of his books on his site for free for a day or so and asked people to put them out on torrent sites, share with friends, etc. According to his analysis, his sales increased markedly shortly thereafter. Not proof, but pretty hard to ignore that there was probably some strong correlation there.

Re:I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[91degrees]

In this case I think it's also about people feeling a desire to reward the creator for being cool.

People are always not what economists would call "rational actors". Either that or we need to establish a price for a positive feeling.

Re:I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this apply to music?

Imho, listening to music on a computer is better than listening to it from a CD player. I'm not even sure the last time I used a CD player. Reading from a (non E-ink-style) screen, otoh, sucks compared to reading from a page.

Re:I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[trytoguess]

At the risk of sounding pessimistic, I suspect this spike came because of the novelty of the situation. Should all comics try this, I suspect the effects would be analogous to webcomics. The very best and/or the best marketed comics will gain hits while the others will be mostly lost in the noise and the free publicity won't do much for them.

Re:I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[DanTheStone]

For clarification: The scare quotes were because it was the term you used, but not one that I consider accurate. I was just wondering what you based your theory on, and whether there have been any (non-experimental) links seen like the one in this article. I know that piracy can sometimes increase valuable exposure for obscure artists (like this story), but I haven't seen evidence or anecdotal evidence of piracy decreasing sales in any measurable way.

Re:I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[nateand]

The author here did the same. All books are available for download on his site for free as PDFs. http://www.undergroundthecomic.com/2010/10/whole-book-for-free-or-learning-something-from-4chan/

Re:I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[Jedi Alec]

Thing is, purchasing a book both adds extra value over the digital download (in my opinion anyway) and books (especially paperbacks) have a pretty damn good ratio of $ / hours of enjoyment. I'm not entirely sure if the same applies to DVD movies and CD music.

Re:I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[feepness]

As I had to look up Joe Konrath (in order to verify it wasn't my typical ignorance). I'm not a big fiction reader. I'll go with the "relative unknown increases circulation" portion of my speculation.

For someone/thing that is already well known, it doesn't seem that word of mouth push would help.

Re:I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[feepness]

Are you assuming this or do you have data to back this up?

You see where it says 'I think'?

Yeah, that would make it my opinion.

Re:I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[Anonymous Coward]

The proof is in a comment posted below: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1834862&cid=33989142 nine minutes after yours.

Re:I think exposure to piracy normalizes sales.

[martas]

I don't have evidence, but I do have an intuitive argument: the distribution of people in many views (i.e. feature spaces) has a heavy tail. Thus, with no extra cost (i.e. difficulty of discovery) for accessing rare material (assuming distribution of supply is more or less == to distribution of demand), the tail will become heavier than if there is such extra cost, in which case many people are "pushed" towards the m[ean|edian|ode].

Fighting 4chan?

[Gizzmonic]

Fighting 4Chan is a bad idea. But exploiting them for money? That's new! Will this trend extend to other vendors such as Doritos or Mr. Pibb? Maybe that infamous "Dollar Menu? I'd hit it!" ad that seems to advocation burgersex was actually aimed at 4Chan.

Re:Fighting 4chan?

[TheKidWho]

obligatory xkcd: http://xkcd.com/591/

Re:Fighting 4chan?

[skuzzlebutt]

Relevant self-pimping:

I published a book last summer about a 4chan-ish group called Amity (name of the book and name of the site where they congregate). In the book, a major soft drink corp tries to do just that: take advantage of the scale of the site users by pushing ads on them, thinking them an innocuous group of consumers. As one could imagine, it doesn't go so well for the soft drink company...

Re:Fighting 4chan?

[hedwards]

I don't think this was exploiting them. This was realizing that there was interest and making the most of it. Personally I'm much more likely to buy something from somebody that recognizes a desire for the product and engages in a mature manner rather than letting lawsuits fly because of poor marketing decisions.

Well I'll be

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait so free sharing of copyrighted material can have positive effects on the copyright holder?

That isn't what the RIAA said at all!

Re:Well I'll be

[tverbeek]

It wasn't the free sharing of this book that boosted its sales. What boosted sales was that the artist got tipped off about it, and had a chance to introduce himself and interact with the pirates, and put a face on "the copyright holder" for them. He was no longer some non-person they could continue to not give a fuck about; he was a human being (and a pretty cool one) whose creativity should be rewarded. It's easy to rip off some anonymous corporation like "Disney" or "Sony" or even "Image Comics", but not so easy to rip off "Steve Lieber" and his co-creator "Jeff Parker". Lieber met them where they lived, and gently poked a hole in their disregard for him as a creator by being a real person. It's a good lesson for other creators... but it'd be nice if more consumers were willing to meet the creators on their own home field as well. If you like a person's work, don't just "share" it with 100,000 of your closest friends: bring them to the creator's web site or Facebook page or whatever, so he has a chance to interact with them like a human being. An artist shouldn't have to engage in detective work to ferret out the people who like his work; if they really like it, they should act like real fans (rather than leeches) and reach out to him.

Re:Well I'll be

[Anonymous Coward]

That assumes they really feel that downloading is wrong.

I don't feel like I'm ripping someone off when I get a book from the library, even though the author never sees a dime from that and I feel similarly about downloading MP3s.

I assume I'm not the only one.

Re:Well I'll be

[mjwx]

It wasn't the free sharing of this book that boosted its sales.

True

What boosted sales was that the artist got tipped off about it, and had a chance to introduce himself and interact with the pirates, and put a face on "the copyright holder" for them.

Not so,

What the artist did is called "good marketing".

If the artist had of run in and shouted "Pirates, ha, I'll sue you, and you and your grandma, I'll dig up her grandma and sue her after I finish having my sweet, sweet way with her corpse" the people would have just said "what a douche, I'll just copy his crap".

Instead he walked in and said "so... you like my work, lets talk about it". From this people got the impression that he was creating things because he wanted to, not to make a quick buck. It's not about guilting them into it as you've inferred. If it were that easy the RIAA would have a picture of a kitten with a gun to it's head on every street corner to remind everyone of the "real" cost of copyright infringement. His sales increased because people liked him, this is part of the reason Valve is doing so well, people like them.

This is good marketing.

Re:Well I'll be

[tverbeek]

"His sales increased because people liked him,"

That's what I meant by showing them that he was a real person. Acting like the RIAA (the evil fantasy that pirates hold in their heads to justify the way they treat creators) wouldn't have helped. Call the emotional reaction what you wish; it was a response to him as a person.

Re:Well I'll be

[Anonymous Coward]

The existence of sociopaths is pretty well documented by now, but thanks for chiming in.

Physics

[zooblethorpe]

Thus the resistance at the high end, and embracing at the lower end.

Almost sounds like electronics.

Cheers,

I wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder what the word "anecdotal" means. Hmmmm. Oh well, not important.

Re:I wonder...

[Kell Bengal]

It's the adjectival form of datum, duh.

Re:I wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

Datum? I don't even know'em.

Re:I wonder...

[jayme0227]

Indeed. This seems like a one time thing. People are jumping up and down to prove a point. It's like when fans of Jericho sent in their nuts or fans of Chuck went to Subway, or even the election of a recent president. Everyone was enthusiastic at first and did what they had to in order to prove their point, but then, as time went on and either apathy or exhaustion set in, everything reverted back to business (or politics) as usual.

Re:I wonder...

[martas]

"data" is plural???? *head explodes*

Dear Steve Ballmer : Here's How to Increase

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows sales: post to piratebay

Thanks in advance, although, a cashier's check in the amount of Euro 100,000,000 would help.

Yours In Krasnoyarsk,
Kilgore Trout

This is why piracy is good

[metrix007]

and not at all stealing.

Re:This is why piracy is good

[Anonymous Coward]

No, this is why treating your fanbase like the fans they are is good. Do you supposed he'd have seen the same spike in sales if he pitched a *IAA-esque bitchfit? What about if he just let it go and never said a word?

Re:This is why piracy is good

[strugglz]

If you want people to break that conception, don't call it piracy. Neuter the term like we have with so many other things. Call it "free information exchange" or something.

Re:This is why piracy is good

[Anonymous Coward]

If he hadn't spoken up, the people who got his book for free on 4chan wouldn't have turned around and paid for it. Maybe one or two, but not the spike he saw from teaching them that he was a person.

piracy is better than obscurity

[Chalex]

As Cory Doctorow says "my biggest threat as an author isn't piracy, it's obscurity."

What better way to increase sales than making sure that everyone has heard of your work?

Re:piracy is better than obscurity

[greyline]

Who?

Re:piracy is better than obscurity

[zill]

Funny how I memorized which xkcd strip that he is referenced in, yet I still have no idea who he is.

Re:piracy is better than obscurity

[AfroTrance]

Her?

Re:piracy is better than obscurity

[bennomatic]

Cory Doctorow was a child actor in the 80s. I think he was in The Goonies or something. I forgot which Cory he was.

Anyway, if anyone should know about obscurity, it's him. Most people aren't even sure if he's alive or if he OD'ed on heroin a few years back.

Let me guess...

[Foolomon]

...the comic was not about Gene Simmons?

Good? Definitely not

[Anonymous Coward]

they were just trying to ddos his comic strip .

Re:Good? Definitely not

[Anonymous Coward]

From the graph that got posted, it looks like they DDoSed his bank account.

Re:Good? Definitely not

[MaskedSlacker]

DDoSed

That word...I do not think it means what you think it means.

the other trend

[Dan667]

is people like gene simmons and lars ulrich trying to convince executives that the real reason their sales suck is because of piracy. I guess this pretty much destroys that line of thinking.

Re:the other trend

[JxcelDolghmQ]

Somebody needs to douse Gene and Lars with gasoline and set them on fire.

Re:the other trend

[Anonymous Coward]

Turns out that the same tactic here didn't work out so well for Radiohead.

But that's ok. Just keep ignoring the data that doesn't fit your model. Slashdorks are good at doing that.

Re:the other trend

[Dan667]

what are you talking about? "In Rainbows" would have never gotten that kind of marketing any other way and it is still selling. And everyone knows bands make most of their money from their concerts so in cutting out their record company, EMI, they kept a much larger percentage of the earnings than they would have gotten from a traditional release. It was a huge success for them.

Re:the other trend

[hedwards]

Delusion is an extremely powerful affliction. And no matter how many "facts" and studies you throw at it, it isn't quite enough to allow reality in.

Re:the other trend

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, because Kiss and Metallica would otherwise be little unknown bands. Truth be told, I wouldn't be at all surprised if piracy _had_ affected their sales (well, that and the intervening decades since they peaked). This instance is probably a combination of increased exposure and putting a human face on the creator of the comic (again, not something likely to happen in the case of gene or lars).

Re:the other trend

[jedidiah]

I dunno. This is kind of funny since both of these guys have bandmates that have already been set on fire.

"Fire Baaad... Fire Baaad..."

Re:the other trend

[jedidiah]

Piracy is certainly responsible for any money that Metallica ever made off of me.

That's why I was so p*ssed when all of the Napster stuff went down.

When they started they were exactly the sort of band that needed guerilla marketing because the labels and mainstream radio ignored them.

Re:the other trend

[jack2000]

Maybe some one could put up a site where people donate money and once a specific number is reached they hire a mafia hitman.

Re:the other trend

[icebraining]

Are you kidding? Do you know how much "pirated" tapes took for them to reach any kind success?

"Piracy", as they call it, existed before the 'net. "Home Taping is Killing Music", indeed.

Re:the other trend

[brit74]

"what are you talking about? "In Rainbows" would have never gotten that kind of marketing any other way and it is still selling. "

Radiohead's manager said they won't be repeating that stunt, so it couldn't have been that great. And, it really does seem to be a stunt. It generated lots of free advertising for them, but that's not an effect that every band can do with every album because that would make it the norm - meaning the free advertising disappears.

"And everyone knows bands make most of their money from their concerts so in cutting out their record company, EMI, they kept a much larger percentage of the earnings than they would have gotten from a traditional release. It was a huge success for them."

You mean it can be more profitable for a band to give away their music and ask for donations than going through a record company where they get a small fraction of the sales profits? Okay, but that's a very particular set of circumstances -- and it revolves heavily around the fact that the record company only gives them a small fraction.

Let me give you an example to illustrate this further: let's say you work for a lawn company. They charge customers $40 an hour for your work. You earn $4 an hour, and they pocket the rest. One day, you get fed up, so you decide you're going outside the "lawn company" structure. You start working for free and asking people to donate. You start earning $8 an hour. Now, here's the problem: you can't generalize this as "it's better to work for donations than asking people to pay a set amount". Once you include the lawn company's (record company's) cut, you'd realize that the company structure is a whole lot better at getting money from customers than donations are. It's just that the donation system is a lot better deal than the deal your lawn company (record company) is giving you. In other segments of the market (like iPhone apps) software developers are getting 70% of each sale, and that the percentage of each sale can make a big difference in determining the best way to go about selling stuff.

What Monty Python Did

[HannethCom]

This kind of reminds me of what Monty Python creating their own YouTube channel and their sales going up 23,000%. http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/kit-eaton/technomix/monty-python-youtube-move-boosts-dvd-sales-23000

Re:What Monty Python Did

[Anonymous Coward]

It reminds me of a indie developer who begged the people to stop pirating his works on all the sites, some people laughed and than there was the Slashdot type people who showed up praising how this guy was going to be a hit.

Well the company went bankrupt, the product was pirated to death and the guy is currently homeless after losing all his savings into the project.

For every chickenshit story like this there are a couple thousand to contest it, this article is basically grasping straws.

The standard /. reply to any piracy talk is a quick example of some weird obscure 80's show that only appeals to this audience and is showing its last breath to that type of audience, don't forget to mention WeirdalYankovich. Also make sure to give advice to woman on how to fight the RIAA and only to abandon her in some of the terrible advice she got.

Slashdot= Open Source Agenda with a bit of utopian socialist thinking around here
No wonder the Swedish don't contribute much to the world with music and movies, because their entire movie/music industry is a joke while the rest of the world drools waiting for America/Britain to make another product so they can leech.

Re:What Monty Python Did

[Anonymous Coward]

Citation please. Who was this guy, what was this great game he produced, and where's a picture of him homeless on the street?

In B4 ad storm...

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope this doesn't become a trend.... /b/ is not your personal consumer army.

Re:In B4 ad storm...

[hesiod]

It was on /co/nsumerism.

so..

[bhcompy]

This comic must be full of futa then?

Just curious...

[Anonymous Coward]

... how many of the sales were completed using credit card numbers that turned out to be stolen? (grin)

"Theft increases sales"

[imthesponge]

The summary tries to spin this story as "theft increases sales". In reality the theft just prompted the author to do the smart thing and talk to potential customers.

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[osu-neko]

The summary tries to spin this story as "theft increases sales". In reality the theft just prompted the author to do the smart thing and talk to potential customers.

That's funny, because the summary says the soaring sales came after the author engaged with readers (and not right after the comic was posted). In other words, what the summary says is pretty much exactly what you say is true "in reality" and the opposite of what you say it says. Why you're trying to insert into the summary things it doesn't say (indeed, a contradiction to what it actually says) I'm not sure.

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Theft? Speaking of spin....

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[imthesponge]

It may not be explicit, but it is the underlying message. Why else post it on Slashdot?

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[Anonymous Coward]

Copyright infringement is still not theft.

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[DIplomatic]

The summary tries to spin this story as "theft increases sales". In reality the theft just prompted the author to do the smart thing and talk to potential customers.

The word "theft" in your post really gets in the way of the point you're making. Also, the real takeaway here is that it made a huge difference when an artist acknowledged his fans for enjoying his art.

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[bonch]

Slashdot has an extremely pro-piracy agenda. You never hear stories about piracy hurting anything. You only hear stories of how piracy supposedly increased sales or how some faceless corporate group is doing something horrible when it tries to protect its property.

You also never hear from content creators who are opposed to piracy, and you rarely hear about its negative effects. Here's one of the rare occasions that Slashdot reported on it, a story about how DRM-free game Machinarium suffered 90% piracy rates, to the point they had to offer an amnesty sale.

The Slashdot agenda is that artists have no rights and should never try to stop pirates, and that if they simply "engage" them, their sales will skyrocket. Apparently, some comic book on 4chan is supposed to prove this. Meanwhile, PC gaming is dead and software is moving to online services...I wonder why?

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[jack2000]

You can begin by not making such outrageous claims.

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[bonch]

What claims are outrageous? PC game developers are public about how piracy has decimated PC gaming. Why do you think they moved to consoles? Why do you think the remaining PC developers require you to log into online services to play? It's the only way they can make any money.

Pro-piracy advocates are leeches who don't want the free ride to go away. They'll use any justification, from claiming piracy somehow helps sales (not buying something is apparently the same as buying something) to portraying other entities as the bad people, such as the RIAA. You can see it in the comments to this story. It's almost automatic at this point--"I'm not the one doing bad things, they are! It's their fault."

It's been an obvious agenda on Slashdot for years. I'm probably going to get modbombed again for saying it, but I've got karma to burn. The most amusing part of it all is how up-in-arms people get over GPL "theft." The double-standard never occurs to them.

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[Anonymous Coward]

The level of hypocrisy amongst the pro-pirate crowd on slashdot is massive! If the hypocrites ever bother to think about their completely irrational and illogical position on almost everything they state here, literally, their heads will explode.

Almost without fail, any and all anti-piracy statements, which completely invalidate almost all pro-pirate positions, get censored to death, which is another source of massive hypocrisy. Basically pirates seem to love censorship and free rides so long as its not their cause or their dollar in the equation. Despicable is an understatement. And yet they seem confused as to why so many have such a low view of them.

Like I said, one even one critically thinks about their irrational position, their head will literally explode.

Most reasoned comments are now forced to be posted anonymously because of the constant troll-moderation and completely lack of meta-moderation by people who actually care about censorship. This post, case in point.

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

It may not be explicit, but it is the underlying message. Why else post it on Slashdot?

Because slashdot is not a monolithic belief system.

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[h4rr4r]

Because someone using an infringement of their work for promotion is far wiser than using it for a lawsuit. It is also far rarer.

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

The most amusing part of it all is how up-in-arms people get over GPL "theft." The double-standard never occurs to them.

It's funny you accuse the slashdot hive mind of hypocrisy when hypocrisy is the precise reason people here get peeved about GPL violations. The violators universally hide behind copyright for other parts of their business. Show me one story on slashdot about a GPL violation by a company or even just some sort of group that doesn't rely on copyright protection for any of their products and I'll eat my words.

Remember, the entire point of the GPL is to use the system to subvert the system. If there was no system in the first place, there would be no need for the GPL. If I felt like it, I could probably dig up a quote by RMS to that effect.

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[GooberToo]

Remember, the entire point of the GPL is to use the system to subvert the system.

That's complete bullshit.

The entire point of the GPL is to focus revenue as services rather than sales of complex, copyrighted, IP. Yet that factual part is what always seems to get lost in discussions. From its inception, the intention is to allow developers to generate revenue from customizations, installation, maintenance, documentation, so on and so on, allowing developers of all sizes to participate in the market while preventing large corporations from strangling the market with monopolies on complex software.

Crackpots have come along and prevent its some socialist agenda where no one should be paid. The simple fact is, anyone who makes such a suggestion has completely missed the entire point of the GPL and has completely ignored its rather well documented history.

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[xenapan]

The bigger problem with PC games: the majority are crap I wouldnt pirate even if they had no DRM. I'd pay for good games but not the stuff they are putting out these days. They release the same games with better graphics... and thats it.
    Same with alot of the pop trash music that gets played 50 times a day on top 40 music radio stations. I have no idea what would possess people to download that stuff. But the main factor is they actually enjoy it (or at least thats why I listen to music) Personally I find it annoying enough it gets played 50 times a day already, you would have to pay me to put the some of those song on anything I own.

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

The entire point of the GPL is to focus revenue as services rather than sales of complex, copyrighted, IP

You are confusing an effect with a goal. RMS has said many times that his goal in creating the GPL and other forms of copyleft (a name that itself inherently demonstrates the intent to subvert the system of copyright) is to spread freedom and cooperation while the dominant use of copyright law is to take away freedom.

Re:"Theft increases sales"

[lucifron]

You never hear stories about piracy hurting anything.

Sure you do.. I've seen several threads in the last couple of weeks about open source being marginalized by unlicensed MS software. ;)

PC gaming is far from dead, the revenue was $13 billion in 2009, up from $11 bn in 2008. Has it ever been healthier, despite an ever-increasing range of activities (and consoles) competing for our time?

Go read the wikipedia pages on software-as-a-service, and I doubt you'll see piracy even mentioned. It's all about cutting costs through reduced overheads and specialization.
While businesses can afford to pay for their software, 13-year old kids might not, but they still wouldn't be able to if the pirate bay wasn't an option. I simply don't buy the argument that copyright infringement equates to lost sales.

The way IP holders and their lobbyists are pushing us towards a totalitarian society, in an effort to keep their antiquated business model, is such a threat to our free society that I'm in favor of major revision/relaxation of our IP laws. Their stated purpose is to provide an incentive for creating art and driving research, but people would, and do, these things regardless of profit.

Example

[imthesponge]

Apple is a good example of this phenomenon.

Re:Example

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the GP's post was slightly vindictive.

Re:Example

[Anonymous Coward]

>>>Sorry for interruption - please resume apple whoring.

Don't bananas work better?
I got sick of Apple.
I bought a PearPod (j/k).

Re:Example

[Anubis IV]

At least the higher prices part. Not so much the delivery issues part. I remember I sent a laptop in for repairs on a Saturday over a 4th of July weekend once, and got it back on Monday, fully repaired and with a new hard drive that had twice the capacity. That's the sort of reason they have fans.

Re:Example

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh...

>> with the exception of poor quality and/or poor service

Yep. Apple is a prefect example! Fanbois returned their iphones and migrated to non-apple services after not being able to make calls, not getting signals while 'holding it wrong', limited facetime to Apple only devices, not being able to copy-paste for years.

What you said is perfect example of fanbois, not fans. There is a subtle difference which you wont be able to see.

Sorry for interruption - please resume apple whoring.

I can almost see the spittle flying from your mouth as you vigorously crucify apple users, condemning them to a lifetime of ignorance.

Re:Example

[RedDeadThumb]

Well if your looking at anecdotal evidence, I ordered and Ipad from the apple store (as a gift) and it didn't even ship until 4 days after it was supposed to be delivered. This is with a promise of "ships in 24 hours". Apple customer service ran me around for an hour claiming I hadn't even made an order until suddenly they found it in "some other system". They then promised it would still deliver on time. I don't see why they just couldn't have been honest and told me they were backordered instead of wasting an hour of my time mostly listening to crappy on-hold musak!

Re:Example

[Anubis IV]

I like my story better.

Re:Example

[I_Human]

In my anecdotal experience yours is the more common story as well.

Re:Example

[Anonymous Coward]

And, thus, you reveal more than we ever wanted to know about your sexual orientation . . .

Re:Example

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot to mention sweat staining the armpits of his business shirt, stage lights reflecting from his glistening skull, and chairs rotating off into the distance at high velocity.

Re:Example

[Jane Q. Public]

"Was" a good example. "Had" fans. This new OS X app store complete with Apple's famous control-freakishness changes all that. People will be screaming.

It wouldn't be so bad, except Apple chose to lock out functionality for non-app-store apps. That's a BAD practice and Apple should know better. They have been warned, many times.

You just don't take a general-purpose desktop or high-end laptop computer, and lock out functionality. Microsoft suffered from that syndrome. It it hadn't, Linux would not be the increasingly-popular OS that it is.

If Apple continues down that road, they will lose the following they worked so hard to gain. That would be sad.

Re:Example

[Anonymous Coward]

I'VE GOT FOUR WORDS FOR YOU!

Good people skills

[Drakkenmensch]

Treating your customers with respect is the best way to see them respect you right back, often with money and sales. RIAA needs to seriously take notice of this.

Re:Good people skills

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait... no, they don't. It's best for the RIAA and the rest to die out and be replaced with new blood in the media industry so we get some new ideas. I can only imagine how exciting music and movies can be if the fans and customers were involved in enjoying it. Let's hope they don't take notice and die quickly...

Re:Good people skills

[hedwards]

If the RIAA respected their customers, do you really think that crap like Hanson and Bieber would ever be released?

Re:Good people skills

[Drakkenmensch]

Precisely. It's another nail in their coffin, really.

Re:Good people skills

[Anonymous Coward]

This nails it. I believe a large part of the disdain that people feel towards corporations in general, and perhaps politics as well, is a lack of respect. At least its how I respond to corporations...I see them as humans just as they would like to be viewed, except I can't ignore the basic human features that they also exhibit like narcissism, greed, lust, indifference, etc. Corporations are like the devil...they have all the negatives of a human, and so often, none of the positives. Then again, not all corporations are evil...but if you are evil and you want to seem not so evil, try to show us customers some respect and don't patronize us with your corporate PR BS. I'm still laughing at Sony in how they tried to pass off rumble technology as last gen technology to argue why they weren't including it in their controller, when anyone who had visited a gaming blog in the past few years knows that they were being sued by the owners of the rumble patent they abused.

Then again, I can't stand PR, not from other humans, and not from corporations...I want to see the guts of the ideas being discussed, not the words themselves.

Re:Good people skills

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure they have noticed this, and I can imagine a fair number of them flapping their mouths silently, open and shut, in a way that resembles beached carp. A few others are likely reaching for their ulcer meds, and dialing their lawyers to see if they can find a way to invalidate Creative Commons licensing, somehow.

Here are the files

[stephanruby]

Apparently, he even posted the scans on his web site. On that note, can anyone recommend me a good comic viewer that will browse/open this type of .cbt files on Windows, or even better a comic viewer that could browse/open this type of .cbt files on my Evo (Android phone). There are so many manga/comic viewers out there, I'd rather not waste my time trying a different bunch of them.

Re:Here are the files

[biryokumaru]

ComicRack is simply the best.

No, really, it is. But Comix is passable if you want a leaner program.

Re:Here are the files

[AtomicOrange]

You rock, I've had those files sitting on my NAS for years. Hadn't taken the time to find a good viewer. Thanks!

Re:Here are the files

[Jaysyn]

I use Comical. I works pretty good for me. Granted, I haven't tried out a bunch of different comic readers either.

http://comical.sourceforge.net/

Profit?

[Anonymous Coward]

So step two is to engage productively with your audience? Who'd a thunk it. A link from /. is a nice cherry on the top.

Correlation and causation.

[sseaman]

Also, people give out free samples all the time to create a "buzz" about a product that will likely fly under the radar. I don't see anything new here.

Most pirated material is stuff people already know about and want. Do you think if Adobe started giving away Photoshop people would suddenly desire it more than they already do?

Re:Correlation and causation.

[Steauengeglase]

Supply and demand. There is only one Photoshop and if I need it, I need it. You can extort what you want and sic me if I don't pay. There are thousands upon thousands of alternatives to Metallica and I don't need Metallica to do my day to day work.

Re:Correlation and causation.

[Jaysyn]

Very rational of you to compare a $3-$20 comic with a program that costs at least 10x as much.

New graph in 3...2...1...

[Orgasmatron]

I can't wait to see his sales graph after he adds the /. effect. How do we stack up to 4chan in terms of economic power?

I'm ordering the TPB. I got back into comics about a year ago after dropping out for a decade. Wish I'd noticed this when it came out.

Re:New graph in 3...2...1...

[gknoy]

More importantly, how many of us would be ordering mainly because we want to read the book versus we want to reward the author for being a non-jerk, and hey this book looks neat too? I'd fall in the latter, if I were to read it.

On the other hand, that's exactly the reason I deliberately look for Baen-published books at the bookstore when I'm looking for something new. Read about their awesome policies, read Honor Harrington online, bought some (not enough!) novels in print later.

Re:New graph in 3...2...1...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.undergroundthecomic.com/2010/10/pictures-help-us-learn/

At a quick glance, I'd say he got 30x the sales he saw from his Boing Boing review.

Re:New graph in 3...2...1...

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdotters are probably less likely to pay for something they can pirate, even though they are much better paid than the majority of basement dwelling teenage 4channers.

Re:New graph in 3...2...1...

[Spykk]

I'm ordering the TPB.

No no no. You don't have to order from the pirate bay, just click the button.

Re:New graph in 3...2...1...

[PeterBrett]

On the other hand, that's exactly the reason I deliberately look for Baen-published books at the bookstore when I'm looking for something new. Read about their awesome policies, read Honor Harrington online, bought some (not enough!) novels in print later.

Definitely. Baen's policies and general attitude to publishing are really refreshing. And this workstation is called harrington.peter-b.co.uk, BTW.

Wow, the Slashdot piracy party is at it again

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you think his sales would be better had they *not* copied his comic *and* he made an appearance on their forums?

Re:Wow, the Slashdot piracy party is at it again

[Oligonicella]

Shhhhh. Logic.

Re:Wow, the Slashdot piracy party is at it again

[hesiod]

No, because they got to see the artwork and read the story, and then engage with the author immediately afterward, as a surprise. If he just showed up out of the blue, a bunch of jerks would be all "who the hell are you, and why should we care", etc. Others would think he was an imposter, and a ton more would assume it's a crappy marketing ploy.

Re:Wow, the Slashdot piracy party is at it again

[jedidiah]

> Don't you think his sales would be better had they *not* copied his comic *and* he made an appearance on their forums?

Except "Mohammed" here didn't quite do that now did he? He needed to be dragged into it by circumstance.

Art mongers need to get over their megalomania.

So that's what happens...

[RealGrouchy]

So that's what happens when you feed the trolls...

- RG>

Re:So that's what happens...

[Anonymous Coward]

So that's what happens when you feed the trolls...

In Anonymous Union, trolls feed you!

Re:So that's what happens...

[EnsilZah]

They have more disposable income to spend on other things?

Re:So that's what happens...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait. Is it that simple?

1. Feed the trolls.
2. Profit!!1one?

Context

[njfuzzy]

Sure, this vastly increased sales-- the artist's direct sales of the trade paperback on his own Etsy. We have no sense at all of the scale of impact on overall sales. In effect, this was just the best opportunity he had had to drive traffic to his own site. Would this have even shown up as a blip in total overall sales? Did Amazon see a similar peak?

Cryptomnesia

[tepples]

Ah, but as shares concentrate into the hands of the few and powerful,but sales dwindle

Then the music publishers affiliated with the major record labels will likely start making accusations of cryptomnesia, or accidental infringement of copyright in a work published years ago, against indie songwriters and recording artists. See Bright Tunes Music v. Harrisongs Music for an example of how it could go down.

Re:Cryptomnesia

[digitig]

Then the music publishers affiliated with the major record labels will likely start making accusations of cryptomnesia, or accidental infringement of copyright in a work published years ago, against indie songwriters and recording artists. See Bright Tunes Music v. Harrisongs Music for an example of how it could go down.

Remind me, which was the indie band/songwriter in that dispute?

Re:Cryptomnesia

[DinDaddy]

Even better was when John Fogerty was sued by his former label for plagiarizing himself.

http://cip.law.ucla.edu/cases/case_fantfogerty.html

cbt = tarball of JPEGs

[tepples]

On that note, can anyone recommend me a good comic viewer that will browse/open this type of .cbt files on Windows

You could open cbt/cbr/cbz files in 7-Zip. They're just archives in commonly used formats, with different extensions to indicate that the archive contains paged media such as photos or comics.

Furry comics too?

[tepples]

You do know 4chan has a big comics board right? People on it are pretty heavily into comics.

Unless, of course, the characters are uplifted animals. Then you get the anti-furry memes going.

Somebody should mention

[Kevin108]

The B&W chapter 1 preview PDF on the author's site is NSFW.

Re:Somebody should mention

[Anonymous Coward]

4chan likes it, what did you expect? :P

Re:Somebody should mention

[Wintywasthere]

Nice one - if you can find any more stuff that's NSFW in there, please yell..:P

Re:Somebody should mention

[Ezel]

I don't get it. What's NSFW? There is 4 frames when a clearly over 18 year old girl gets out of bed and one sees her panties.
Is that it?

Re:Somebody should mention

[Kevin108]

I admit I clicked very rapidly but I was pretty sure I saw the shadow of a nipple.

Goat S(acrific)e

[tepples]

will 4chan bless me with more rain if i sacrifice my goat?

Start with "goat sacrifice", and then sacrifice the letters in the middle of the second word.

[the game]

A little perspective

[PCM2]

Steve Lieber is a nice guy and a talented artist, and his comics are worth reading, but let's put this scenario into a little perspective. This is not a case of Steve posting to 4chan and then all the little 4channers running out to buy his comics.

Point 1: Underground could already be downloaded for free from Lieber's Web site, so it being "pirated" on 4chan wasn't that big of a coup.

Point 2: Comic book companies do not track sales on a daily basis. The sales that went "through the roof" were sales of signed print editions from Lieber's Etsy store.

So rather than a massive vindication of 4chan, "engaging your audience," or anything else, I see this more as a case of: A.) creator makes a product available online; B.) author manages (if inadvertently) to find an effective marketing channel for said product; C.) people who spend most of their time online notice the marketing and buy the product.

Pretty simple, really. Engaging his audience helped, but he would have been happy to engage anybody that came his way to begin with. The problem is, "build it and they will come" doesn't really work on the Web. Lieber lucked out that someone else noticed him and chose to promote his product in a way that he couldn't on his own. He was smart enough to pounce on the opportunity.

Re:A little perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

Re Point 1: the comic was MADE available for free at Steve's site in response to the 4chan thread, not before it, that's the point.

Re:A little perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

Point 1: Underground could already be downloaded for free from Lieber's Web site, so it being "pirated" on 4chan wasn't that big of a coup.

Not quite. He originally released chapter 1 for free, not the entire book.

Somebody from the 4chan /co/ board then bought the full book, scanned it, and put up a thread with these scanned images. Steve Lieber took notice, joined the thread, and has now put up the book for free on his website. He also added a donate button in case you only want the digital version and want to kick a few bucks his way.

Point 2: Comic book companies do not track sales on a daily basis. The sales that went "through the roof" were sales of signed print editions from Lieber's Etsy store.

The online store is most likely not on the scale of national comic book stores, but who knows? Maybe a large number of his sales are made online. Regardless, it makes the sudden increase no less impressive.

So rather than a massive vindication of 4chan, "engaging your audience," or anything else, I see this more as a case of: A.) creator makes a product available online; B.) author manages (if inadvertently) to find an effective marketing channel for said product; C.) people who spend most of their time online notice the marketing and buy the product.

Pretty simple, really. Engaging his audience helped, but he would have been happy to engage anybody that came his way to begin with. The problem is, "build it and they will come" doesn't really work on the Web. Lieber lucked out that someone else noticed him and chose to promote his product in a way that he couldn't on his own. He was smart enough to pounce on the opportunity.

To be honest, I don't see your point here. You're arguing that the author was not "engaging his audience", merely finding an effective marketing channel for his product. But, the "marketing strategy" he discovered was engaging his audience; jumping into the fray so to speak, and directly communicating with the people copying (and most likely reading!) his book. He must have linked his website during the discussion, but I don't know if I would call that marketing, or even much of an advertisement, really. They already had his product, after all, just digitally instead of physically.

Re:A little perspective

[uninformedLuddite]

You really think poorly of people in general don't you?

Re:A little perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

Point 1: Underground could already be downloaded for free [undergroundthecomic.com] from Lieber's Web site, so it being "pirated" on 4chan wasn't that big of a coup.

He only put it online for free after the discussion on 4chan. Before that, only a couple of previews were available, so your point doesn't completely hold water.

NOW you've gone too far!

[Anonymous Coward]

K.T., I find your advocacy of the distribution of dangerous viruses to unsuspecting cybercitizens to be reprehensible.

The other day I finished building a house

[Anonymous Coward]

...and the 4chan clowns moved in

instead of having them forcibly removed I relinquished ownership of it to them

HOWS THE FREE BIZ MODEL WORKING OUT FOR YOU YOU FUCKING UNEMPLOYED TARDS???

Not entirely true...

[Lead Butthead]

If this were a new thing you might have a point. However, in Japan they have their own equivalent of comic-con and people make their own fan-zines and sell them for a profit. It's technically illegal but they never get shut down. The reason is that excitement over a franchise is still excitement over a franchise. This was known over 10 years ago but nobody over here is paying attention to it.

That is not... entirely true. I recall Disney was not amused when someone published a doujin with Micky and Minnie Mouse 'going at it.' (Right, 50 years of celibacy?) And don't you know it, Disney's landsharks came knocking so fast it made their heads spin.

missing the big picture

[__aatirs3925]

I think we're missing the point. 4chan (likley /co/) purchased, reviewed, and raved about a non-cp, gore or furry comic. That's quite impressive! In all honesty, I am doubting the validity of this because as we all know, such a cause and effect with the given circumstances is not possible around the chan. It requires filth, so much so that not even a mountain of dial-soap could be of any help. That's why I am dismissing this article by calling it fluff in attempt to get more sales.

goodie

[Badbone]

While that is great for the artist and the chans, it's missing the point. It's a bit like someone breaking into your house, and while you are away to buy new locks, a fire breaks out. "See!", the burglar says, "good thing I broke in, huh?" You do not have permission to steal/post/copy/upload other people's works without their permission. Yes, even if it all works out in the end.

Re:goodie

[clone53421]

No, you’re missing the point. With a physical object, like a house, someone else moving in uninvited would detract from your ability to use the house. With information, it doesn’t, unless you’re a snob... somebody else having a copy of your painting doesn’t interfere with your ability to enjoy it, unless your enjoyment of it was partly based on the fact that nobody else had it in the first place.

It’s more like they copied the blueprint for your house and used it to design virtual houses in SecondLife, which became so popular that people who would otherwise never have known about you came and wanted to buy copies of your blueprint to build real houses.

Re:goodie

[Anonymous Coward]

If information sharing is good can i have the information off your passport.

I wont be depriving you as you still have the original, and you never know my antics masquerading as you might earn you some fame!

Re:goodie

[clone53421]

Nope, this is a snob case. You can’t have my passport information because my ability to use it depends entirely on the fact that nobody else has it. However, this is because civilization has come to the conclusion that a person can be identified by the information they possess, which is moronic but I have to live within that framework.

The difference is, my passwords, bank account numbers, PIN numbers, passport info, etc. are secret. You can’t have them for any price. If I was trying to sell information, though, I’d have a problem: I’m simultaneously trying to give information away, and prevent the people I give it to from giving it to others as well. This simply does not work.

You can either keep information secret, or you can give it away. Trying to do both simultaneously doesn’t work.

inb4

[koolfy]

inb4 : RIAA/MPAA trolling 4chan...
Tits or GTFO.

Publisher get no % of royalties, or rights

[klui]

I think this post by Steve clinched it for the lurkers. http://undergroundthecomic.com/4chan_thread_20614483.html#20642617

Re:Good? Depends which letter.

[b4dc0d3r]

There's a big difference between 4chan and /b/. I got hooked on /b/ for a while, and i think it did real damage. I'm sorta recovered. But only partially because I still post on /. so I have a ways to go.

Harlan Ellison?

[denzacar]

Is that you?

Re:Harlan Ellison?

[Tumbleweed]

Is that you?

Get off of my damned lawn, or I'll sic my Boy and His Dog on you!

MARKETEERS TAKE NOTE

[Kazoo the Clown]

This shows that sometimes you will do better when you're actually nice to potential customers, and don't try to ram things down their throats or P. T. Barnum them.

Bah

[Arancaytar]

These sales CANNOT compare to the BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS of dollars he would have earned had these evil pirates not stolen his property.

(signed, the RIAA)

Re:Bah

[mysidia]

Is that billions of Monopoly game dollars, or is it billions of real dollars from the 2 people who buy it (after hyperinflation depreciates the dollar to 10^(-8) of its current worth ?

Re:Bah

[proudhawk]

Billions? I think you exaggerate a bit, don't you?

As someone else pointed out in here, some comics just are worth holding in hand because they don't look as good on a monitor.

now if I could just get a broilled edition, then I'd be all set. :)

Re:Bah

[proudhawk]

GAH! thats brailled. damned fingers!

Re:Bah

[Anonymous Coward]

Exaggerating?

You mean calculating lost profits based on fantasy sales numbers minus the actual sales, multiplying by the price and by an extra "I am entitled to more money" factor will not get you a realistic number? Fancy that. ;)

Re:Bah

[proudhawk]

please prove the logic and math underlying your claim. real numbers only please.

Re:Bah

[MaskedSlacker]

To be fair, a broiled edition sounds delicious.

Re:Bah

[proudhawk]

hehehe yeah a slight mistype caused a "funny" comment to appear.

that is the problem with being blind, sometimes you miss the right key (still, its a long way across the kb from A to O).

It produced case law

[tepples]

Then the music publishers affiliated with the major record labels will likely start making accusations of cryptomnesia, or accidental infringement of copyright in a work published years ago, against indie songwriters and recording artists. See Bright Tunes Music v. Harrisongs Music for an example of how it could go down.

Remind me, which was the indie band/songwriter in that dispute?

I know what you're getting at: Bright Tunes wasn't the clear-cut Big Four vs. indie case that I fear is likely to happen. But even though Bright Tunes was between two established companies, it produced case law that a major music publisher can use against an up and coming indie band.

Why thankyou!

[Anonymous Coward]

I shall now take a look!

As fate would have it

[Anonymous Coward]

Obscurity is a far worse fate than piracy.

Oh ohhh I got it!

[grumpyman]

1. Draw crappy comics 2. Post it on 4chan 3. ??? 4. Profit!

The tone of this story seems a bit odd to me...

[BaronHethorSamedi]

...for a community whose lockstep mantra much of the time is "correlation is not causation."

I'm not trying to troll, but all we can really say is that there was a spike in sales (and the original article doesn't make clear just how much of a spike--I can't get to the author's blog from work) following a conversation on 4chan. Those two pieces of information, by themselves, don't seem to me to mean all that much. I would love to believe (as many here seem to) that they translate directly into "if you respond to pirates on internet forums they will all rush out and buy your stuff," but I think we need a lot more information before it's reasonable to draw that conclusion.

If anyone is listening...

[Anachragnome]

If anyone in the industry is listening, hear this.

The last three video games I purchased were purchased after first torrenting them.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, will give me more incentive to buy something then a test drive--a test drive that ends with positive results.

You have nothing to fear if you create a worthy product.

And, in terms of reviews of a product, nothing speaks like seed/leech numbers...at least until someone starts gaming THAT as well.

Steve just reminds us that we all have a choice--you can keep paddling into that wave, or you can hop on your board and go for a ride. Either way, that wave is headed for the beach and it just might be the best one of the day.

Sage lesson

[RenHoek]

People underestimate the power of not being a dick.

Steve Lieber has an explanation

[brit74]

Seems Steve Lieber has an explanation for why his sales increased (and it's not generalizable to other media - e.g. music, software, movies - which is "native" to digital format):

"The problem is this: I hate looking at the kind of comics I do on a screen. I read plenty of funny comics on the web, but adventure stories just don't work for me online. Heavy brush and ink line art art seems ill-suited for monitors, and the storytelling rhythm is sort of *off*, somehow. I think it's an inferior experience for the reader. Or at least it is for me, but when I'm creating a comic, I'm have to go by my own tastes."

This is why I also think books have done better with piracy than other media - people don't like reading books on their computer screen. Hence, people like Doctorow, who want to sing the praises of piracy, are ignorant of why their media is different from other people's media. I'd find it funny how clueless they are about their own situation if they weren't out there trolling people who make other media.

Seems Steve Lieber has an explanation

[brit74]

Seems Steve Lieber has an explanation for why his sales increased (and it's not generalizable to other media - e.g. music, software, movies - which is "native" to digital format):

"The problem is this: I hate looking at the kind of comics I do on a screen. I read plenty of funny comics on the web, but adventure stories just don't work for me online. Heavy brush and ink line art art seems ill-suited for monitors, and the storytelling rhythm is sort of *off*, somehow. I think it's an inferior experience for the reader. Or at least it is for me, but when I'm creating a comic, I'm have to go by my own tastes."

This is why I also think books have done better with piracy than other media - people don't like reading books on their computer screen. Hence, people like Doctorow, who want to sing the praises of piracy, are ignorant of why their media is different from other people's media. I'd find it funny how clueless they are about their own situation if they weren't out there trolling people who make other media.

pirates are a comics best friend?

[proudhawk]

the author of that comic did something outside the box and it profited him greatly. now if the music and movie industries would realize the same market and offer their wares for a lot less, they would sell more, alienate a lot less and still profit.

Consider piracy to be "free advertising".

[mykos]

Pirates may not buy, but they WILL talk. Everyone has an advertising budget...consider piracy to be part of that budget. There's no way to tell if they would have bought it anyway.

He neither understands the internet...

[Anonymous Coward]

..Nor wants to try.

Try to read what he's actually saying. First of all someone already made the point he didn't come into the thread excited about the publicity, he came into it resigned and obviously annoyed the comic had been posted. Then after I posted it was bad form of him (read: stupid as hell) to accept getting nothing from getting the comic published through Image he replied with:

"The basic Image deal is pretty well known. You can google it if you want to know more. They do the pain-in-the-ass pre-press and publishing work, arrange for better placement in the distributor catalog then the non-exclusive publishers, and sell the book into several hundred more stores than we would have reached otherwise. In exchange, they take reasonable flat fee. That's it. No percentage of royalties and (this is the big one) no rights at all. There's a reason Scott Kurtz has published 40-some issues of PvP there."

First off, he tosses out retaining rights to the story as if that's something a writer/artist should be happy to get, let alone get paid for their work (which he wasn't). Secondly, all the "pain-in-the-ass" stuff he laments the poor souls at Image having to take care of are completely irrelevant with digital distribution. Third, Scott Kurtz STOPPED publishing with Image this past July for exactly that reason. It was a waste of his time.

"And here I have to just flat-out disagree. When it comes to comics like Underground or Whiteout, I'm not drawing for "the audience." I'm drawing for me. I've got a whole other career as a storyboard artist and occasional mainstream comics artist where I worry about other people's opinions, and that pays my bills just fine. But when I do an indy comic, my one and only job is making something I want to read. Sorry if that annoys you, but it's the truth. Worrying about what the audience wants is how you get Whiteout the Movie instead of Whiteout the Comic."

Bear in mind he still thought people read comics on .pdfs at this point. Oh, he's not drawing for the audience, none of whom give a rats ass that they're reading the comic on their computer screen by the way, he's drawing for himself and he didn't want the comic sullied with ads (but every other comic Image publishes having ads is A-OK. hint: they aren't publishing your comic with kitten farts and fairy dust). Not getting paid for the work he did was perfectly fine since he has other jobs that do pay him money. In other words, comics are just fun for him and it doesn't matter that he did it for free and doesn't care doing so might hurt others trying to get published.

He doesn't care he's hurting other creators, he doesn't like digital distribution for subjective and irrelevant reasons, and has no clue about how it works.

Music too.

[Anonymous Coward]

With some musicians that I now buy a lot from, my enthusiasm started with YouTubing and torrenting of the music in question.
This got the RIAA another customer as surely as it got Mr. DIY another customer. Mr. DIY understands that and the RIAA doesn't, but the process still works.

A little perspective on a little perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Were the free copies available BEFORE they were posted on 4chan? Because the blog strongly suggests it wasn't, and that he decided to make it available for free as a result of 4chan (along with a Paypal donation button).

2) If companies do not track daily sales, why is the picture on his blog marked "last night's etsy sales (page 1)"?