Goodbye, VGA

jones_supa writes "Leading PC companies have expressed their will to finally start kicking out legacy display interfaces. Intel plans to end support of LVDS in 2013 and VGA in 2015 in its PC client processors and chipsets. While the large installed base of existing VGA monitors and projectors will likely keep VGA on PC back panels beyond 2015, PC and display panel makers are in strong support of this transition. The DisplayPort connector interface provides backwards and forwards compatibility by supporting VGA and DVI output via certified adapters, while also providing new capabilities such as single connector multi-monitor support."

Comments

That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Corporate Troll]

Oh, I wouldn't say goodbye just yet.... 2015 is still a long way to go. Recently, the monitor at my parents failed (a 2 or 3 year old 1280x1024 LCD panel... All CRTs before that lasted way longer. This LCD craze does have its downsides). Their computer has an old GeForce 4 MX 4400 or so with only a VGA port. I went to a local electronics shop and found a 23" Full HD LCD panel for an incredible 149€. I bought it, but then I got worried. Wait, the box doesn't mention VGA at all only DVI. I was a bit scared I'd have to upgrade to DVI, not that it matters, I have tons of older video cards with DVI so it would just have been a bit extra work.

Turned out that when I opened the box, only a VGA cable was included. DVI connector was there, and I'm pretty sure that it would work. For me it was ideal, for someone planning to connect to a DVI-only machine would probably have needed to go back to buy a cable.

Also keep in mind that a lot of laptops only have VGA. As far as I know there are no VGA-DVI adapters (DVI-VGA does exist). Since these days 5 year old computers and older fullfil the need of most computer users, don't expect VGA monitors to disappear soon. Companies will cater the needs of those "left behind".

DisplayPort? Haven't even seen a computer having that by default... Macs perhaps? I don't know, we only have a iMac and since the monitor is built-in, I didn't bother looking for display connectors.

No, wait... I think my fathers new Alienware laptop has a displayport. Totally forgot about that. It's less than a year old though.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[jimicus]

Macs have DisplayPort connectors, and have done for some time.

Though I wouldn't be too surprised to see this continue for some time - hell, you can still buy a PC with PS/2 connectors, FFS.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[jawtheshark]

What's wrong with PS/2 connectors? I prefer them, unlike USB they don't require polling as they are interrupt driven. When I can choose, I take PS/2 over USB for keyboards and mice. Saves USB ports too for other duties.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[somersault]

New Dell Precision workstation we got recently only has either DisplayPort or mini-HDMI connectors on the graphics card. There was an adapter included to convert to DVI output so I just used that.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Danieljury3]

Macs have DisplayPort connectors? I thought those were only on mid-high range video cards for people who want to connect 3 or more monitors.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

> As far as I know there are no VGA-DVI adapters

I don't know what made you think that. I've owned and used several myself.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[srothroc]

VGA, HDMI, and DVI on mine.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

Technically that's a converter, not an adapter. An adapter would just change the physical interface, but you obviously can't send an analog signal into a digital interface.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Pojut]

Agreed! I just wish I didn't have fifty billion PS/2 adapters in my desk drawers -_-;;

Note: I'm totally kidding. It's more like sixty billion.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Corporate Troll]

Interesting. I stand corrected. I never had seen any, but a search on newegg gave me this. Thanks...

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[corbettw]

Or you could, I dunno, get a USB keyboard that has two or four USB ports on it, itself. Try doing that with PS2.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Sockatume]

What are you doing with your mouse and keyboard that the protocol makes a practical difference? I'm legitimately curious, not sniping. I use a PS/2 keyboard to save ports myself.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Moryath]

The phrase "certified adapter" means "video quality degraded to crap and DRM added."

Just FYI.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[compro01]

VGA-DVI adapters (actually converters, as you need to do analog-to-digital) exist, they're just rather expensive.

http://www.networktechinc.com/vga-dvi.html

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[petermgreen]

As far as I know there are no VGA-DVI adapters (DVI-VGA does exist)
The adaptors you speak of are just wiring adaptors. They (along with DVI-I sockets) let a computer or monitor manufacturer offer both analog and digital on the same port but the analog output hardware still has to be present in the computer. Afaict if the monitor supports it you can use them at the monitor end as well.

There are adaptors that actually convert between digital and analog but they don't come cheap.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[jawtheshark]

Oddly enough I have one of those at work... I never think of using them... I always connect stuff directly to the laptop or the docking station. In my mind a keyboard is still something standalone... Heck, even my external monitor has USB connectors. I never use those either. I simply don't think of them as USB hubs.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[red_dragon]

Dell has been including DisplayPort in some (all?) of their newer models, both desktop and laptops. My Dell Precision M4400 has a DisplayPort on the back, but I end up using the VGA port on the side instead to watch Hulu on my TV. Their OptiPlex desktops and Latitude laptops are now also equipped with it.

There are VGA-to-DVI cables and adapters out there. It's what the video conference system at my work uses to connect VGA devices to its DVI secondary input. They have to be available by design, since DVI supports both analog (VGA) and digital signals on the same connector.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[arivanov]

You forgot to mention - does it work properly after that over the VGA cable?

Most VGA cables cannot take the frequencies required to transmit a HD signal cleanly so you get pretty nasty ghosting. The same is valid for a lot of recent video cards which have VGA as an afterthought on a cable hanging of a header on the side.

On the negative side, this is likely to reinstate the whole debacle about resolutions, DRM and the other "digital may allow people to steal stuff" that kind'a went away from the PC and got confined in "consumerdevice land" with the introduction of the HDMI.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[jawtheshark]

It might make a difference when your computer is under heavy load and you try to kill the runaway process.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[imakemusic]

Great plan. As long as you're not using too much power on your USB devices, that is...

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

I once had to buy cables to fit a VGA port on our new workstations to DVI-only monitors. They're out there.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[dasunt]

Recently, the monitor at my parents failed (a 2 or 3 year old 1280x1024 LCD panel... All CRTs before that lasted way longer. This LCD craze does have its downsides).

Often, if an LCD goes after just a few years, it's due to a bad capacitor or two on the motherboard.

If you do a bit of research and find out what the requirements for the capacitors are (usually low-ESR, etc), the cost for each capacitor is under $1, and anyone with basic desoldering skills can replace them.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[DrSkwid]

http://www.ramblers.org.uk/

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, I wouldn't say goodbye just yet.... 2015 is still a long way to go. Recently, the monitor at my parents failed (a 2 or 3 year old 1280x1024 LCD panel... All CRTs before that lasted way longer. This LCD craze does have its downsides).

Most likely your parents monitor just had a bad capacitor on the power board. If you are handy with a soldering iron and can afford about $4 in parts from an electronics supply store you can replace them all in about an hour or less. This goes for any LCD desktop monitor and probably most (if not all) expensive large televisions of LCD type. When you think about it, even in "off" (really standby mode) the power unit is still on and is subject to line power quality.

It is really a cheap wager of a small amount of cash and a slight bit of time vs. having to throw out a sometimes rather expensive piece of equipment for the failure of a 25 cent part.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Lumpy]

And slow your stuff down to usb1.1 spec. Oh and zero power there. I have a USB flash stick that will not work off of a Keyboard USB port. Not enough power there.

extra usb ports on your keyboard are like stick on air vents for a car... There for show only.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[agressiv]

Almost all new corporate laptops now have display port (Lenovo, HP, Dell). All AMD-based corporate desktops now have DisplayPort as the "2nd monitor" on the onboard motherboard. (e.g. HP Compaq 6005)

However - it is ironic that "display panel" makers are "anxious", because if you look at most display makers' LCD offerings - maybe 1-2 models out of 15 or so will actually have a DisplayPort port - and you'll be paying a hefty premium for that. We have to buy adapters with every computer we buy for users who want dual monitor, because we're not going to pay an extra $150-$200 to get a monitor which has native DisplayPort.

You want a bargain basement monitor? They probably won't even have DVI. Many still are VGA-only to save on costs.

agressiv

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[zach_the_lizard]

If your computer is under such heavy load that a USB mouse/keyboard is being dropped, I think it's time to upgrade from that 286!

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[zach_the_lizard]

Even my old, underpowered MacBook has a displayport connector.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[petermgreen]

Ghosting isn't really about frequency response. Lack of high frequency response would cause bluring.

If you really have ghosting it is likely a result of impedence mismatches either because you are attempting to use a passive splitter, because the characteristic impedance of the cable is wrong or because the termination in the devices sucks.

Personally I've had pretty good luck with VGA EXCEPT when trying to drive HDTVs. My conclusion is that the VGA inputs on those things just suck.

"FULL HD" isn't really that much higher than 1280x1024, especially when you condsider that LCDs usually run at 60Hz while late CRT monitors were often run much higher than that.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[disi]

I think is was 127 USB ports you can make out of one.
So if you use more than 127 USB ports, that's bad...

On the other hand, I usually charge all my stuff on a USB port and it is sometimes annoying to wait until the cable is free to charge the next device.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[NJRoadfan]

Only one thing I can thing of... IBM Model M It tends to have issues with PS/2 to USB adapters. I use PS/2 mice and keyboards too (and ADB on all my Macs since they are old). PS/2 keyboards always seem to work correctly on boot-up for BIOS setup use, I've had problems with USB keyboards on some machines. PS/2 mice don't have the polling problems that another poster mentioned.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[TheThiefMaster]

You don't need to convert to digital, DVI has an analogue variant.

The problem is that I don't know of any displays with a DVI-analogue socket.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[TheRaven64]

Many still are VGA-only to save on costs

That doesn't make sense. Driving a TFT from VGA requires a lot more circuitry than driving it from DVI-D. That's why the Apple monitors only had DVI-D input; it was cheaper to produce. In reality, the cheap TFT monitors are VGA only for differentiation: they're convinced people that it's worth paying a premium to be able to drive your digital display from a digital signal, and so people do.

DisplayPort should be even cheaper. It's designed to be easy to use to drive a typical TFT and, unlike DVI and HDMI, doesn't require you to pay a royalty to use. Monitors that are DisplayPort-only are going to be cheaper to produce than any of the other options. Of course, that doesn't mean that they'll cost less to consumers...

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[__aamnbm3774]

This LCD craze does have its downsides

See, this is where my conspiracy theories kick in. It's actually a good business model if you make a monitor that only lasts 2-3 years opposed to one that lasts decades. TV/Monitor manufactures may very well skimp on several areas, knowing full well you will be replacing your device much sooner than before.

I don't think the entire world is evil, I just think all corporations are.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

hell, you can still buy a PC with PS/2 connectors, FFS.

They're actually very useful on some systems. For example, Dell's Optiplex 980 can't boot from a USB flash drive unless it's the only USB device. Time to fish out the PS/2 mouse and keyboards...

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[dreamchaser]

If your computer is under such heavy load that a USB mouse/keyboard is being dropped, I think it's time to upgrade from that 286!

That is about the lamest and most artificial response to a question I've seen in a long time. As another poster put it, if your computer is under that much load you have far bigger problems than what type of interface you are using for your keyboard. There is absolutely no technical reason to prefer USB keyboards over PS2 unless you have a machine that lacks a PS2 port. Personally I don't care either way. I use what I have on the given machine. Some of my boxen have PS2 keyboards and mice, some have USB. It makes zero difference in the real world.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[dreamchaser]

Hmmm I hit reply to the GP post yet it posted it as a reply to yours. I wasn't criticizing you, I was going after the GP :)

I hate the new /. interface. It's utter crap.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Poorcku]

The new Lenovo Thinkpads have them by default. I have a W510 and connect it through a DisplayPort. They also have vga connectivity. Macs i think have the mini-displayports (could be wrong).

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[WaroDaBeast]

(...) but you obviously can't send an analog signal into a digital interface.

This is why DVI-D to VGA (and conversely, VGA to DVI-D) adapters don't exist.That said, DVI-I (and DVI-A too, but I have yet to see one of those) can send both digital and analog signals, so I would call it an adapter.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[commodore64_love]

>>>get a USB keyboard that has two or four USB ports on it, itself.

Just what I need: More cables to get my legs and other appendages tangled in. I tend to avoid the USB connectors on my keyboard, and prefer to use the ones on the floor (on the computer case). It would be nice if they made more keyboards/mice that used the traditional PS/2 connector.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[xded]

USB is actually inferior to PS/2 for keyboards (see n-key rollover).

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Rockoon]

..and just to be clear, there are several different types of DVI sockets you will typically find on consumer parts.br>
DVI-I is mainly found on video cards.
DVI-A (analog) and DVI-D (digital) are both common to LCD panels.

DVI-I is a superset of both of them, so that either an analog or digital input monitor can be plugged into them.

The DVI-A standard was designed to be trivially converted to VGA.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[commodore64_love]

There goes my 3 VGA CRT and 1 LCD monitor. Next I suppose they'll phase-out Svideo on DVRs and make TVs obsolete too. (shrug). I did try one of those DVI-to-VGA adapters one time but the picture was "faded" for some reason, and I went back to VGA.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[peragrin]

I plug my mouse into the keyboard that way I only have one cable going under the desk. How is that not simpler? It also means I can move the keyboard and mouse together as opposed to haveing one of the cables to short.

Simplify your stuff. The smaller number of cable runs you have the neater and more organized they will be.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Bigbutt]

What sort of issues? I have two and one is connected to my laptop via a DIN to PS/2 to USB connectors, the other is a DIN to PS/2 connected to my main computer.

[John]

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

I swore to never buy a USB keyboard again when I found out that my expensive Microsoft "anti-ghosting" USB keyboard wouldn't reliably register more than three key depressions at the same time. The keyboard was advertised as supporting 6-key rollover - and apparently the hardware had that capability - but USB requires a special driver to recognize more than three key presses at once. So it worked fine in Windows, but didn't work with the linux 2.4 kernel.

Even with the proper USB HID driver, USB is still limited to 6 keypresses at once, while PS/2 will handle as many keys as you can press.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need to convert to digital, DVI has an analogue variant.

The problem is that I don't know of any displays with a DVI-analogue socket.

An LCD display with a DVI-A input would indeed be silly. DVI-D (accepting either analog or digital signals) on the other hand ... well, those only recently started disappearing from displays.

Heck, the 20", 23" and 30" Apple Cinema Displays had DVI-D ports and were quite happy being driven by an analog signal over a VGA->DVI-D cable.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[jedidiah]

You must be joking...

Some of have been happly using VGA cables for "HD" signals since long before any HD standard was defined.

This has to be the dumbest thing yet that anyone has come up with on this thread.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell Latitudes (E6400/6410 at least) have DisplayPort as standard and it works very nicely. They also have VGA.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

Also keep in mind that a lot of laptops only have VGA. As far as I know there are no VGA-DVI adapters (DVI-VGA does exist). Since these days 5 year old computers and older fullfil the need of most computer users, don't expect VGA monitors to disappear soon. Companies will cater the needs of those "left behind".

DVI has the support for VGA monitors as part of its spec. It won't work the other way(I think it is a digital, analog thing). What they do need is to phase out HDMI for display port. I have had display ports on all the new Lenovos I get at work.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[russotto]

See, this is where my conspiracy theories kick in. It's actually a good business model if you make a monitor that only lasts 2-3 years opposed to one that lasts decades.

I have a decade-old LCD and recently got rid of my last decade-old CRT monitor (still have a CRT TV that old). Neither one remains a quality display after a decade of use; the CRT gets dimmer and turning it up to compensate makes the image lousier, and the CCF-backlit LCD backlight gets dimmer as well. I'd expect an LED-backlit LCD to last longer than either one.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[AdamHaun]

The USB keyboard protocol polls the keyboard for changes at regular intervals. If two keys change state very close together (i.e., if you're a fast typist), the changes will be sent in the same data packet. The problem is that the protocol doesn't care about the order of the keypresses and just handles the changes in QWERTY order, so I get typos in my text whenever I type in the "wrong" order. The $100 Das Keyboard is particularly bad about this due to its N-key repeat feature, but others do it too.

Modern consumer electronics seems to have given up high-speed response in favor of convenience and ease of signal processing. A noteworthy (and on-topic!) example is LCD input lag, the real reason I'll be sad to see VGA go. Analog signal paths are horrible from an electrical point of view, but they're also lag-free.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

there *is* a technical reason to prefer ps2. one actually gets interrupts
with the ps2 interrupts. polling such a massively slow device as a keyboard
or a mouse is a huge drain relative to the amount of work being done.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[MBGMorden]

Only one thing I can thing of... IBM Model M It tends to have issues with PS/2 to USB adapters

Best thing I've found for this:

http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.html

It's essentially a marginally updated clone of the IBM Model M. Available in black, has a 104 key layout instead of 101, USB interface available, and a straight cord rather than the coiled annoying one from the original model M. I've got the Unicomp spacesaver version (same layout but less border plastic around the edges) as well as a real IBM Model M (as well as 2 other different brand mech switch keyboards), and the Unicomp and the IBM have an identical feel.

I won't ever be getting rid of my original unit, just for backup's sake, but the Unicomp unit is a good way to essentially get a Model M that works well on modern machines.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[EnsilZah]

Or you could just get one of those for $4.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anarke_Incarnate]

USB 3 is event driven. I can't wait to end the polling absurdity.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[HideyoshiJP]

My E5500 has that as well. I actually have the DisplayPort to HDMI adapter they accidentally ordered for another machine. One thing I love about working with business machines is getting newer pieces of tech than you find on the consumer lines.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Guspaz]

For existing computers, sure. Although PS2's main problem is that it's not hot-pluggable, so if you don't have a keyboard plugged in at boot, you'll need to reboot the machine to get it detected (at least with Windows).

More to the point, modern motherboards tend not to have PS2 ports, and I don't believe any laptops have for what, at least half a decade?

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean DVI-I, not DVI-D.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Jeffrey_Walsh VA]

Most keyboards and mice for some time now are USB, but come with a PS2 adapter. I find the adapters to be a common fail point due to thier weight. If a PS2 device is not plugged in when BIOS boots it will not work. USB is hot pluggable. Early on when USB input deviced were new, there were some issues. The kyboards could not be used for BIOS setup, and they could not be used for OS installs. But I have not seen that for several years now.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[ripdajacker]

PS/2 connecters are very useful for keyboards since USB only supports 6-key rollover, where PS/2 supports n-key rollover. This is the case for my Das Keyboard and for the Steelseries 7G keyboards too.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Guspaz]

You obviously haven't bought a graphics card recently :)

Most graphics cards sold in the past 5-10 years ship with at least one of 'em. Nowadays, they all do, since videocards rarely have VGA ports anymore. They normally have some combination of DVI-I, DisplayPort, and HDMI, and provide an adapter to use the DVI-I port as VGA.

Heck, my Radeon 9700 Pro shipped with two such adapters, since it only had two DVI-I ports ;)

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[__aamnbm3774]

Yea I hear ya. 2-3 years is actually a really short timespan. If anything broke within that time frame (barring someone smashing it or dropping it), I doubt I would buy from that manufacturer again.

But at the same time, you can't discredit the 'big business' logic above. They only want it to last long enough so that you feel compelled to buy another one from them when it does eventually die.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[swfranklin]

As far as I know there are no VGA-DVI adapters (DVI-VGA does exist).

DVI-A to VGA adapters exist, but the video card must explicitly support DVI-A (Analog) - it's simply a way to map VGA analog video and digital video into a single DVI connector. If the video card is DVI-D (Digital) only, then it can't be converted to VGA.

You could get/make an adapter from VGA to DVI-A but most monitors' DVI ports support DVI-D only, if they support VGA they will have a discrete VGA port.

Wikipedia article on DVI

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[dastardlydavros]

USB 3.0 is interrupt driven, so there's one less reason to avoid living in the dark ages with PS/2 :-)

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Guspaz]

More like the adapters are defined in the DisplayPort specs rather than just being after-market addons like a DVI to component adapter would be. You can't add DRM to VGA (although you can degrade it, as you pointed out).

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[tepples]

There is absolutely no technical reason to prefer USB keyboards over PS2 unless you have a machine that lacks a PS2 port.

One advantage of USB is that extension cords in the form of hubs are widely available, so that you can run USB from your home theater PC to the trackball and keyboard on your TV tray.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[tepples]

The problem is that I don't know of any displays with a DVI-analogue socket.

I seem to remember that some displays have a DVI-I socket (both analog and digital), and if they can't sync to a DVI-D signal, they'll fall back to the DVI-A pins.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Low Ranked Craig]

I'm typing this on that very keyboard, on a Mac no less. Best $80 I ever spent. I do wish it had USB ports on it though - there's plenty of space. I'd like to plug a mouse and a card reader into the keyboard. One of these days I'm going to buy another on and hack in some ports - you could probably get a mini ATX motherboard, SSD, etc inside the thing.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Nemyst]

Many laptops have HDMI out now. Mine has DisplayPort on top of that.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[dragonhunter21]

Don't forget that you can run over to your local electronics reatailer and pick up a DVI-to-VGA converter thingamabob for cheap.

My gaming comp has two monitors- a native 1440x900 with DVI and VGA connections, and a native 1280x800 (I think) that only has VGA. My computer only has DVI out. Went out to Radioshack, picked up one of those on the cheap, and never looked back.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[greed]

DVI actually supports both analog and digital. The analog version is called DVI-A, and is signal-compatible with VGA; you just need a passive cable adapter. This can be at either end: so you can have a VGA plug on a PC and a DVI-A compatible plug on a monitor or vice-versa.

But usually you get monitors that have digital-only DVI ports, these are called DVI-D. A DVI-A cable can't plug in to them.

The version that has both analog and digital is called DVI-I; both DVI-A and DVI-D cables can connect. These are very common on video cards, and you can use the passive DVI-A to VGA cable adapter to get the analog signals from it to a VGA monitor.

So, I have a DVI-I-capable KVM switch. Which would be great: I could connect both VGA and DVI machines to it. Except, my monitor is DVI-D, so the monitor will never see the VGA signals on the DVI-A lines; it has a physically separate VGA port for DVI-A or VGA.... (I think with the right splitters and adapters I could do it... but a cheap DVI-capable card for my fileserver was more practical. Especially since the old one got Capacitor Plague.)

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Mattcelt]

Ummm.... the DVI spec supports both analog and digital connections. There are three types of DVI: DVI-A (analog only), DVI-D (digital only), and DVI-I (integrated analog and digital). Any DVI-A and DVI-I interface has direct 1:1 capability with VGA; it's simply RGBHV. So DVIVGA adapters do exist - it's only for VGA->DVI-D that a converter is necessary.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

That is, and has been for some time, Apple's business plan.

Non-replaceable batteries, anyone?

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[the plant doctor]

My Dell Adamo 13 has display port only by default.

Of course it's no longer manufactured.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[interval1066]

"Recently, the monitor at my parents failed (a 2 or 3 year old 1280x1024 LCD panel... All CRTs before that lasted way longer. This LCD craze does have its downsides)"

Speak for yourself. I have several lcds that are much more than 2 or 3 years old. CRTd are heavy and take up much more room & NRG than LCDs. There's no really good reason to keep them around.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Waffle Iron]

Even with the proper USB HID driver, USB is still limited to 6 keypresses at once, while PS/2 will handle as many keys as you can press.

Judging from the issues you're having, I'm guessing that you must be a house cat.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[wbo]

I seem to remember that some displays have a DVI-I socket (both analog and digital), and if they can't sync to a DVI-D signal, they'll fall back to the DVI-A pins.

Indeed, most of the descent LCD panels that I have worked with have had DVI-I ports and will accept a VGA signal sent through a DVI-I cable just fine.

In fact, many NEC monitors come with a VGA->DVI-I cable in the box (along with a DVI-D->DVI-I cable and sometimes a DVI-D->DVI-D cable).

I have seen some LCD panels equipped with 2 DVI ports, one DVI-I and one DVI-D. In those cases, the DVI-I port can accept an analog VGA signal or a digital DVI signal and the DVI-D port can only accept a digital DVI signal, so if you have a monitor like that make sure you use the correct port.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[compro01]

That is a wiring adapter, not a converter. It relies on the monitor having its own ADC to handle the analog VGA signal, which not all do.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[afidel]

Server motherboards tend to have them and they tend to be significantly more reliable than USB when using a decent KVM. On the other hand ilo/DRAC/BMC tend to make them significantly less important.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with PS/2 connectors? I prefer them, unlike USB they don't require polling as they are interrupt driven. When I can choose, I take PS/2 over USB for keyboards and mice. Saves USB ports too for other duties.

The rest of the world is moving on to wireless input devices, but whatever, you probably have a nonsensical reason to be tethered to your computer with cables that cannot be unplugged while in operation.

Seriously, polling vs. interrupt?

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[afidel]

My Radeon 5750 has VGA, 2xDVI, and HDMI and annoyingly it only shows POST to the VGA adapter so to troubleshoot I have to bring up the 15" LCD from the basement because the 42" display doesn't have a VGA input.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[mrjb]

And PS/2 keyboards are much easier to interface with microcontrollers.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[AWoroch]

Also keep in mind that a lot of laptops only have VGA. As far as I know there are no VGA-DVI adapters (DVI-VGA does exist).

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10419&cs_id=1041903&p_id=2397&seq=1&format=2

Such VGA-DVI adapters do exist. Though, notably, the cheaper ones only do DVI-A and not DVI-D, but they're out there.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[kimvette]

Macs have mini displayports.

Dell's Precision Mobile Workstations have displayports. I my m6400 fairly often with a DisplayPort to HDMI cable. :)

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[ghjm]

One of my customers is a Lenovo shop. All the Lenovo machines have DisplayPort. We have a bucket full of DisplayPort to DVI adapters since very few monitors have native DisplayPort adapters yet.

Apple, of course, just has to be different - they, and they alone, use Mini DisplayPort.

Also, back in the days of CRT monitors, in a large environment (2000 desktops) we would have one or two go bad each month. Occasionally they would even catch fire. Since the introduction of LCDs, I can't actually remember ever RMAing one that wasn't physically damaged. You can complain about a lot of things with LCDs - most notably, the way the manufacturers screw with the color representation to get garish, cartoon-like colors that make the demo look good but everything else look awful. It's the volume wars but for color.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[ghjm]

The reason I prefer USB is that PS/2 devices often don't reliably resume operations if you disconnect/reconnect them. Would you consider that a technical reason?

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Corporate Troll]

I have bought graphics cards recently, I even found the adapters you describe in the dumpster. However, what you describe is the ones you attach to a DVI video card, and give you VGA output to connect to a VGA monitor.

Those are very common.... What I was talking about is a convertor that you plug in a VGA video card (example: your typical laptop...) and converts it to be used by a DVI monitor.

I hope you see the difference, there...

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Fulg]

The problem isn't the OS, it's the port: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS/2_connector (see the "hotplugging" section).

You *must* power down the machine before plugging in a PS/2 device, or risk blowing up the port controller/fuse. I have killed at least one motherboard this way (PS/2 devices no longer work on it).

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[falsified]

I thought I had hot plugged in Windows too, but that would have been a few years ago, and I remember it only sometimes working. Does anyone else know?

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[noidentity]

And a nice forum for getting help is the badcaps forums. It's an eye-opener how often a device failure is due to degraded capacitors.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[falsified]

And by "a few", I mean "I'm pretty sure I was using a pirated copy of Windows 2000 on my blazing-fast PC".

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[QuantumBeep]

That's odd. Motherboards have been using an "e-fuse" since the Super 7 days. Efuses break, then close again after a while.

The OS still won't detect a new keyboard without a reboot, though.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[tlhIngan]

Also keep in mind that a lot of laptops only have VGA. As far as I know there are no VGA-DVI adapters (DVI-VGA does exist). Since these days 5 year old computers and older fullfil the need of most computer users, don't expect VGA monitors to disappear soon. Companies will cater the needs of those "left behind".

As long as the DVI port is DVI-A or DVI-I (and not DVI-D) any VGA-DVI adapter will work. That's because the DVI spec puts the analog signals on separate pins (IIRC, it's the ones to the side with the metal slot for a common ground). DVI-D only has the slot, and the pins are filled in so they won't accept VGA through an adapter.

HDMI-DVI adapters require a DVI-D or DVI-I port - you'll find only the metal bar is present and nothing else.

DVI-I ports are "universal" and some TVs use them instead of a separate DVI and VGA port. You just need an adapter.

HDMI only supports digital signalling so VGA cannot be carried over that. (HDMI signalling is different than DVI actually. It is the responsibility of the HDMI source or sink or actually identify a DVI connection and switch the signalling to DVI mode to allow for passive HDMI-DVI adapters.)

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[QuantumBeep]

That's very important for those new WASDWTF games.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[SuricouRaven]

Wireless just means another set of batteries to change.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[budgenator]

My favorite Keyboard is from an 8MHz 286 you insensitive clod, the tactile feedback on modern keyboard suck donkey dicks. Using a modern keyboard after using an IBM Selectric is like having sex with a blow-up-doll!

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[SuricouRaven]

Hardly new in the PC laptop arena, either. Notice every model seems to have it's own battery, of slightly different shape? But those batteries have a three-year shelf life, and the manufacturer charges a small fortune for replacements.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[yuhong]

Since these days 5 year old computers and older fullfil the need of most computer users, don't expect VGA monitors to disappear soon.

Yep, they are talking about getting rid of it on the computer side.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[marcansoft]

The culprit is this paragraph in the USB HID 1.11 spec:

The order of keycodes in array fields has no significance. Order determination is done by the host software comparing the contents of the previous report to the current report. If two or more keys are reported in one report, their order is indeterminate. Keyboards may buffer events that would have otherwise resulted in multiple event in a single report.

They could've just as easily specified that keys pressed are appended to the buffer in order, or at least that the buffer should be parsed in order (such that good keyboards could take advantage of this ability to reduce errors when two keys are pressed near simultaneously). But noooo. Dammit, USB is so ass-backwards it isn't even funny.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[yuhong]

And even the HDMI/DVI adapters don't add DRM, just pass it through if the host computer is outputting such a signal.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[marcansoft]

Keyboards and mice are still in USB 1.1 land, controller-wise. I don't think we'll ever see USB 3.0 input peripherals at this rate.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Jesus_666]

Actually, more than one or two ports usually don't make much sense on a keyboard as even two regular HID devices can end up drawing more power than an unpowered hub can provide - all depending on your devices, of course.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Ark42]

Or be a gamer. I've had similar issues on cheap keyboards, even PS/2 ones though. Try to hold up+left to walk forward while strafing left and then press Ctrl to duck and shift to disable run so you sneak slower. Oh wait, you can't because that's too many keys down at once and now your computer stopped to issue a PC speaker BEEP!! and lag your game for a second or two.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

The question is "What is wrong with VGA ?"
The answer is "It supports resolutions far beyond HD without DRM", thats the true reason for dropping VGA.
The other reason, almost as important as the first: "good fast D/A converters are quite expensive, if they don't install them they can earn several millions of dollars a month more".

I'm using an EIZO CRT display with a native resolution beyond 1920x1600.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Ark42]

I've seen that on cheap PS/2 keyboards too. It's really annoying when you can't even type a 3 letter word like TWO without it coming out as WTO every single time. At first I thought I was crazy, but it's very reproducible if you type fast.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

Old-school games with non-network multiplayer require many simultaneous keypresses. One Must Fall 2097 on a crappy keyboard is not fun because combos don't work :P

Thanks to USB, one workaround of course is using multiple keyboards.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[bigstrat2003]

If a PS/2 keyboard isn't plugged in at boot, it doesn't work until you reboot. USB doesn't have this problem, thus, USB wins by a mile.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[zach_the_lizard]

My favorite keyboard is from the same era, but that has nothing to do with the connector and everything to do with the keys themselves.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[acohen1]

Did Tepples forget to login?

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[cgenman]

Clearly you kids never have worked with and Apple ADB keyboard. You and your fancy 3rd key.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[acohen1]

I have a stack of those since I've gotten 1-2 with every graphics card I've bought since 2000 or 2001. I did actually purchase one for the tune of $35 before they came packed in, back in 1999 I think.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[TheThiefMaster]

I remember buying a DVI-I cable and then not being able to use it because my monitor's DVI socket was DVI-D. I've been buying DVI-D cables since, assuming that I wouldn't work. Guess my monitor's just crap.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[DocSavage64109]

Is it that easy to diagnose which capacitor(s) failed? Unless there is obvious damage on a motherboard like burn marks, I wouldn't know where to look, other than googling for common failure modes for the particular device.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

I can plug and unplug usb cables without any fear.

PS/2 requires a power cycle.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[nabsltd]

Even with the proper USB HID driver, USB is still limited to 6 keypresses at once, while PS/2 will handle as many keys as you can press.

Judging from the issues you're having, I'm guessing that you must be a house cat.

Backward, strafe, jump, and run (or a similar combo) all pressed at the same time isn't uncommon, so there might be instances where 6 or 7 keys are helpful.

ISTR that some games can do two-player from the same keyboard...that might need more than 6 keys at the same time, too.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[sexconker]

This has nothing to do with USB vs PS/2.
This has to do with masking.

http://www.dribin.org/dave/keyboard/one_html/

The bottom line is that keyboards don't have a dedicated circuit for each key - they use a bunch of small grids and detect key presses at the ends of rows/columns in the grid.

Multiple key presses within a grid can cause masking - where a keypress simply isn't recognized at a physical level. Ghosting can also happen, where a keypress is recognized when there isn't one.

How the grids are laid out plays a big role in whether or not a user will experience the problems.

If you have masking in a game, you can try rebinding your controls. A typical masking scenario involves trying to press something like:
W for forward
A for strafe left
CTRL for crouch
Shift for run/walk

If you remap one of the controls to another key you can often get around the masking. I would recommend moving control over to C or Alt if either are unused. Your options will depend on the game and the amount of claw hand you are willing to suffer. You could also always map a control to the mouse. Side buttons are great for shit like a crouch toggle, a grenade toss, etc. Middle click is the bees knees for scope zoom.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[IshmaelDS]

They are hot-plugable on any system if you want to risk killing your ps/2 controller. As the poster right above you pointed out Wikipedia PS/2. Having said that I hot-plug them all the time and have only killed a couple ports. Those that do die I grab a USB keyboard and voila they are back up and running.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[blahplusplus]

"a 2 or 3 year old 1280x1024 LCD panel... All CRTs before that lasted way longer"

I had an LCD panel that only lasted 3 years and I have a 19" CRT monitor that still in perfect order after almost 10 years.

I have a feeling that perhaps LCD manufacturers need to be investigated I wonder how common failures of LCD's are after 3 years. They should be able to last way longer then that.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[commodore64_love]

>>>I plug my mouse into the keyboard... How is that not simpler?

Because I often use just my mouse alone, while my keyboard is "put away" under the coffee table. Having the mouse run into the keyboard would be inconvenient..... mainly because the mouse cord is not long enough to reach that far.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, seriously, since usb keyboards are problematic for fast typists, and driver quality varies quite a bit. PS/2 ports handle all that messy stuff in hardware. Wireless is even worse than usb, by several orders of magnitude..There's VISIBLE lag at times. oh and then there's the constant charging/replacing of batteries. Of course, aesthetiphilic homosexuals like yourself will make up the majority in this context someday, and the rest of us sane people will have to fight yet one more aspect of their existence.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Reziac]

Generally it's just a visual check -- a bad one has a swelled top, or evidence of leaking (crusting) around the bottom. However, if one goes, probably all of them (or at least all of the same class) should be replaced, as it's seldom just one bad cap, but rather a batch failure problem.

Also as a general rule, the kind with an "X" mark on the top are more likely to fail, while those with a 3-pronged mark (I don't know what it's called, if anything) or Pi-shaped mark seldom do.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[JourneymanMereel]

The Dell monitor I use has 4 USB ports on it.... two easily accessible and two buried by the power and VGA/DVI connectors. I've found that to be ideal as I assume they're powered from the monitor. The two on the side are useful for connecting thumb drives, phone chargers, etc while the two on the back are useful for the camera on top of the monitor and the bluetooth dongle (I've used one in the past for USB powered speakers).

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[JourneymanMereel]

I use a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse.... even fewer cables :)

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

New Dell Latitudes come with DisplayPort and VGA (like the E6510 for example)

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently most displays have a VGA and a DVI-D port instead of combining both into a DVI-I to gain a bit of flexibility (i.e. better compatibility with common cables, possibility to connect two PCs at once)

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Eil]

Recently, the monitor at my parents failed (a 2 or 3 year old 1280x1024 LCD panel... All CRTs before that lasted way longer. This LCD craze does have its downsides).

You say that like LCDs are some passing fad! Sorry, they're here to stay and good riddance to blurry, hot, huge, power-hungry CRTs.

Was the previous LCD monitor a cheap model? Lower-priced monitors are known to not last very long because they're made with cheap components. The LCD panel itself might be fine, but the backlight inverter and all of the supporting electronics go bad sooner than well-made models. LCD monitors with LED backlights will be the norm soon and they do away with the last two real problems with LCDs: the inverters going bad, and the backlights fading over time.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[bill_mcgonigle]

What's wrong with PS/2 connectors? I prefer them, unlike USB they don't require polling as they are interrupt driven. When I can choose, I take PS/2 over USB for keyboards and mice. Saves USB ports too for other duties.

Gosh, back when USB wasn't so common, there was an article here talking about the relative work Linux needed to do to handle both. The PS/2 port needed to be sampled at 200Hz, while USB was doing hardware offloading of the work, so the computer could have more interrupts for other (server-type) work. So, the recommendation was to use USB for servers when possible (and turn of video, etc.) I found that result unexpected at the time.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Guspaz]

Wups, didn't notice that it was female DVI.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[FreonTrip]

Most VGA cables cannot take the frequencies required to transmit a HD signal cleanly so you get pretty nasty ghosting.

Untrue - I saw a lot of 1600*1200 CRTs with crystal clear reception from the late '90s until a few years ago. A lot of cheap VGA cables are poorly shielded, particularly the "thin" form factor cables. This was a problem I ran into just a few months ago, where very faint ghosting could be seen after text on my HTPC's output to our HDTV. When I was given a Radeon 3850 with dual DVI outputs, I bought a new DVI-A --> VGA cable, and the ghosting completely disappeared.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Mashiki]

Judging from the issues you're having, I'm guessing that you must be a house cat.

Either that or they're a fast typer. Last time I heard, when you start hitting 450wpm or so you start getting into the area where you're going faster than what the keyboard can keep up with(too many simultaneous keypresses). Most people switch to dvorak keyboards by the time they're at 250wpm, which allows them to go faster.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[AdamHaun]

It is a shame. I'll probably have to make my own keyboard with a custom USB protocol once everyone gets rid of PS/2.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[quacking duck]

My Mac extended keyboard has two USB ports on it. My USB2 3.5" hard drive is connected to one, an ancient Logitech mouse on the other, and the HDD speeds are perfectly in line with a USB2 device.

USB2 thumb drives works fine off of it too. The only thing it can't do is power an external 2.5" drive or my iPhone--have to connect directly to the computer's USB for that.

So, hardly for show only.

Conclusion: it's not USB keyboards that's the problem, it's poor-quality ones.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Tetsujin]

I use a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse.... even fewer cables :)

Rechargeable, right? So that'd mean there's still at least one cable for both, though it could also be one cable each...

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Tetsujin]

There is absolutely no technical reason to prefer USB keyboards over PS2 unless you have a machine that lacks a PS2 port.

One advantage of USB is that extension cords in the form of hubs are widely available, so that you can run USB from your home theater PC to the trackball and keyboard on your TV tray.

If I were planning to use a keyboard with a home theater PC I might consider a wireless one instead...

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

pure fud. ps2 is just a funny serial connector instead
of a db9. if your motherboard is that static sensitive,
you just have a cheep motherboard manufacturer.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

...or an emacs user.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Khyber]

On a single PS2 port I have keyboard, mouse, and an X-Arcade dual tankstick.

NO DRIVERS REQUIRED.

Let's see USB do that.

Oops, it can't. USB needs drivers, both for the device and the controller hub.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Tetsujin]

Wireless just means another set of batteries to change.

Or recharge. Or fail to recharge at some point...

Wireless technology is great stuff, but sometimes you can't beat the simplicity and reliability of a good ol' wire.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Fallingcow]

If they phase out S-Video, the best-possible display mode on some older consoles will no longer be an option, notably on the SNES, N64, and Gamecube (at least the component-out-capable Wii will play the GC library, but so long to playing GBA games on the TV except with an emulator)

If we ever lose composite, too, then they'll all be unusable, unless we want to plug them in to the antenna in, which is a huge pain in the ass if you have more than one, provides a terrible picture, and may not be an option if they stop including analog tuners in TVs.

Maybe adapters could save us? S-Video and Composite to Component or HDMI?

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Nirvelli]

Then we'll just have to go with uncertified adapters.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[cbhacking]

The best approach I've found is the Sleep/Suspend state. Near-instant to enter and leave, no need for a full reboot, but it will sense PS/2 devices quite happily on resume.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Pentium100]

However, new video cards usually come with only DVI connectors - which is fine, because there is a simple wiring adapter to VGA. And if need be, I'll just get the D/A converter (HDMI to VGA or whatever) so that I can continue using my CRT monitor, with a maximum usable resolution of 1920x1440@85Hz (max possible resolution is 2048x1536@75Hz).

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Pentium100]

And for DVI-D or HDMI to VGA, get HDFury (also supports HDCP) or similar.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[644bd346996]

Most of Apple's USB stuff runs far beyond spec in terms of the power delivered, so that people won't have the unpleasant surprise on finding out their iPod didn't charge while it was plugged in to the computer.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Sigma 7]

On a single PS2 port I have keyboard, mouse, and an X-Arcade dual tankstick.

NO DRIVERS REQUIRED.

That's because the tankstick acts as a keyboard, and relays any keypresses from the actual keyboard to the computer.

USB needs drivers, both for the device and the controller hub.

Modern systems already provide said drivers. If you have a system that doesn't, it's probably a pre-Y2K system, or is too early in the boot process.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Pentium100]

DvI-D to VGA adapters also exist (as do HDMI to VGA) but are more expensive as they have a DAC in them.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Pentium100]

good riddance to blurry, hot, huge, power-hungry CRTs.

blurry - depends on the monitor, god ones can display high resolution without problems
hot, power hungry - not as power hungry as the PC they are connected to
huge - at lest on my desk, if I used a LCD monitor, the space behind it would be wasted anyway, since the monitor is on the corner of the desk.

However, a CRT monitor can display a lot of resolutions correctly, also, it does not have the long response time that LCDs do (or the lag and image artifacts that LCDs with a short response time have).

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[MogNuts]

Exactly. Even scarier: say goodbye to hooking up your computer to your HDTV (goodbye HTPC).

The only way to get a clear image is by using VGA. HDMI connected to a modern day DVI graphic card (using an adapter*) gives an image that looks like it's underwater. Text you can kinda make out. Forget getting clear images. It's not even passable--it's so bad it's not usable.

* Not the adapter. Thought it was. Tested it with a myriad of adapters and different cables.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[TooMuchToDo]

That's what a 24 port powered USB hub is for (keyboard, mouse, scanner, 2 hard drives, and 4 monitors using Kensington USB->DVI adapters). And I *still* have room for more gear on it =)

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[TooMuchToDo]

Not sure about all servers, but most Dell servers within the last 2-3 years only have USB, not PS2 (to save room for other ports on the back).

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because the dell is crap not a USB problem.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[bored]

I think you got that backwards. PS/2 has a dedicated interrupt (aka you press a key the processor gets interrupted, you don't press a key nothing happens), USB is polled.

Yah, lets heard it for 1 step forward two steps back. But this seems to be common practice with a lot of recent hardware specs.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[MogNuts]

I posted below elsewhere on this. I've found the opposite. That the only clear picture on an HDTV is via plain 'ol VGA. How did you get a clear picture via HDMI?

The only way to get a clear image is by using VGA. HDMI connected to a modern day DVI graphic card (using an adapter*) gives an image that looks like it's underwater. Text you can kinda make out. Forget getting clear images. It's not even passable--it's so bad it's not usable.

* Not the adapter. Thought it was. Tested it with a myriad of adapters and different cables.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

> Recently, the monitor at my parents failed (a 2 or 3 year old 1280x1024 LCD panel... All CRTs before that lasted way longer. This LCD craze does have its downsides).

Oddly enough, my experience has been the opposite. I've seen some CRTs last ages but others go funky in about two years. I haven't seen any LCDs die... ever. I keep expecting my oldest one to go - you'd think the nine year old backlight would burn out eventually, wouldn't it? - but it's still fine. And with increasing computer ownership, and laptops, we're talking about a larger number of LCDs I've known than CRTs. I don't think I've directly encountered the LED-backlit ones yet, though.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[TooMuchToDo]

Is there any reason you couldn't drive an LCD with USB 3.0? I use 6 monitors on my Mac at home, with 4 of them using Kensington USB->DVI adapters. So why not cut out the middle man and simply allow USB as an option if it's 3.0 (as 3.0 should have plenty of bandwidth to support several USB based monitors)?

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[fat_mike]

VGA-DVI exists. I bought two from Radio Shack on Monday.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

Powered hub. No worries about power usage and most USB devices don't need much bandwidth.

Can you do anything like that with a PS/2 connector? No? Then how is that a negative against USB vs PS/2?

Dumbass.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[tompaulco]

I had read somewhere that computers don't load up USB drivers when entering safe mode. That could be wrong or outdated information or could be BIOS dependent. Having read that I was quite happy that I had a PS/2 keyboard during the last several weeks while my computer was attempting to commit suicide.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Lehk228]

i got a new production model M from unicomp, it's a black and grey USB version of the classic IBM keyboard, i dropped it on it;s corner once and it dented the floor

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[rev0lt]

Some boards won't even recognize the device if hot-plugged. While in most Intel boards this isn't an issue, I've had this problem with almost all other major manufacturers. Btw you should also power down your computer to plug in speakers, microphone, paralel printers and monitors, and while I've seen graphic cards fried by trying to hotplug monitors (mostly due to grounding issues), it is pretty safe to plug in devices without an external power source, such as passive keyboards and mouse. The funny thing with speakers is that they should actually be completely hot-swappable, because the connector requires the equipment to support short-circuiting of the output. Over the years I've fried more than half a dozen soundards connecting and disconnecting speakers and headphones.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[gmack]

And yet it does. I'll give you the possibillity of frying the PS/2 Port even though I've only seen it happen with older keyboards. But I've been hot plugging PS/2 keyboards and mice for close to a decade now and Linux has always detected the new device straight away.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[ninjackn]

Actually macs have a MINI displayport connector. When apple first switched to mini display port I was excited, being one of the few people who actually owned a monitor that supports a displayport (full size) connection. You would think it would be a simple mini-displayport to displayport cable like you see for micro/mini usb to usb. It took 3rd party manufactures over a year to come out with that blasted cable. Sure there was mini displayport to VGA, DVI or HDMI but no mini dislayport to displayport.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[anton_kg]

DisplayPort is royalty-free interface and it's definitely way to go. Apple is doing the right thing for once.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Khyber]

"That's because the tankstick acts as a keyboard, and relays any keypresses from the actual keyboard to the computer."

No, it does not. It is a passthrough and piggyback, not a relay. There is a 4-bank programmable switch that will capture and replicate the signal given to it for a given button.

You actually have to program the tankstick first if you want it to ACT as a keyboard. Otherwise it is purely a passthrough, much like the added video cable for a VooDoo2.

And you can actually program it to work with game consoles as well and emulate the controller, again, without drivers.

Modern systems do not typically provide drivers for game controllers. Sure there's a generic driver but you don't get full functionality without installing the real driver.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

And macs also have a display port to X adapter - cos they know not everyone has a displayport monitor or something

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[QuantumBeep]

From what I've found, if the system "expects" a PS2 keyboard because it booted up with one, it'll hot swap. I fyou didn't boot with one, you'll have to cold-boot it.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[BlackBloq]

Yea the interrupt system is great! Did you sleep the last 25 years?

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[toddestan]

My guess is that VGA is considered the lowest common denominator, as nearly everything can output an analog VGA signal. So it's assumed that if you're going to built a LCD, it has to take VGA or you're limiting your market. Now if you're cheap that's all you'll put on it, as DVI, etc is going to add more costs.

In a few years, it will probably be the opposite. HDMI (or maybe DisplayPort) will be the lowest common denominator, and you'll have to pay a premium to buy a monitor that still accepts VGA.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[JourneymanMereel]

A dock to charge the mouse... the keyboard runs off a pair of AA's. Being that it's on my desk, I wouldn't even mind a wired keyboard... but the wireless mouse is very nice to have. I always hated fighting w/the mouse cable.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[toddestan]

You haven't had problems with monitors failing due to the capacitor plague? Usually an easy fix once you figure out how to get the case open, but I've seen plenty of dead LCDs because of that.

Also, I've seen burn-in issues on the cheaper ones after a while. Not sure if it's because TN panels are more susceptible to burn-in, or that the monitors are otherwise low end.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Pf0tzenpfritz]

Yes, did that too. Still have the good, old Sun Type 5 keyboard and mouse.Rock solid.Shame, it's limited to sparc32 machines...

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

Just get a dasKeyboard Model S available in both clickety click and silent versions... (For the l33t, there's also an Ultimate model without any markings on the keytops).

Single cable, with two USB plugs, one for the keyboard and one for the integrated 2 port USB 2.0 hub

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

There _is_ actually even a technical reason to prefer PS/2 over USB: USB spec only permits 6 simultaneous keypresses at once, while PS/2 basically guarantees "unlimited".

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[commodore64_love]

>>>get a USB keyboard that has two or four USB ports on it, itself.

Just what I need: More cables to get my legs and other appendages tangled in. And often times I don't use the keyboard at all..... just a mouse. It would be difficult to plug my mouse (or anything else) into the keyboard while it's laying under the coffee table.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[petermgreen]

I didn't, on the HDTVs I tried one didn't like PC resoloutions through the HDMI port at all and the other gave a maginally better picture than via VGA but was still far from acceptable for desktop use.

In the end I gave up and bought a device specificaly sold as a "monitor TV" (LG M2762D). Connected it via DVI and got a perfect picture right off the bat :).

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[MogNuts]

Lol the simplest solution is usually the best one. :-) Very interesting though.

I guess the best solution then is if one is to buy a new TV, only buy with a DVI connection or displayport. Simple solution. Hopefully one of the benefits of this removal of VGA is the development of TV sets that have displayport instead of VGA.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[sjames]

If it's WELL designed, it will be a USB 2.0 (at least) hub with the keyboard itself connected downstream. Since a keyboard shouldn't need much power, the flash stick should work as well plugged in to the keyboard as it does directly plugged in to the PC.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Eil]

blurry - depends on the monitor, god ones can display high resolution without problems
hot, power hungry - not as power hungry as the PC they are connected to
huge - at lest on my desk, if I used a LCD monitor, the space behind it would be wasted anyway, since the monitor is on the corner of the desk.

Points taken, if not fully agreed with. :)

However, a CRT monitor can display a lot of resolutions correctly, also, it does not have the long response time that LCDs do (or the lag and image artifacts that LCDs with a short response time have).

I'm not sure what you mean here. If you mean the "ghosting" that plagued earlier LCDs, that hasn't been a problem in years. Even on my four-year-old LCDs, I can move windows, the mouse cursor, play games, watch movies, etc. with no perceivable artifacts or after-image. There were (or are) some LCD monitors on the market that had horrible latency, but this was due to poor controller design rather than a defect of the LCD itself.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[blai]

Extra USB ports on your keyboard are for plugging in other random USB peripherals you won't want to unplug.

Like a USB mouse.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Pentium100]

Connect a CRT monitor to your PC and make it so both monitors display the same image, then move windows around. Some LCDs, to reduce the latency (the original LCD problem) use overvoltage on the cells to make them switch faster, however, as I understand it, this requires some processing and the monitor gets input lag. Some monitors even have some weird color artifacts because the cells overshoot the intended value due to the overvoltage. My CRT monitor just scans the beam across the screen and paints the pixels as it receives them.

A video of LCD input lag (not mine) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi2OE6hSh00

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you should stop scuffing across the carpet in wool socks before connecting things to your computer?

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[ghjm]

Nope. I guess we've been lucky.

Re:That's one heck of a "long goodbye"

[Anonymous Coward]

250 wpm is ridiculously fast. If you know/meet anyone who can actually do that, why don't you suggest they speak to the Guinness Book of World Records people, becuase it is quite a bit faster than the current world record.

And 450 with dvorak? It sounds like you're making shit up. So, citations please.

Conference rooms

[dimer0]

Only place I use VGA anymore (and have used in the past 4-5 years) is for overhead projectors in conference rooms.

Re:Conference rooms

[snookerhog]

i am assuming that shitty old VGA projectors will continue to cause problems for my presentations well beyond 2015, but I will be happy to be proven wrong.

Re:Conference rooms

[Toe, The]

Yeah, and AV companies have tons of 50' VGA cables. I am pretty sure I have seen a projector's DVI port run to a computer's DVI port with VGA adapters on both ends to accommodate the VGA cable.

Re:Conference rooms

[Anonymous Coward]

Have never had any problems with VGA projectors although I've seen people who don't use a Mac running into trouble with them. I don't know why it seems to be so hard to get a Windows or GNU/Linux system running on a decent notebook to talt to a VGA beamer. Some work, but there are quirks, that's why I would never want to use anything but a Mac for a presentation although I have to fiddle with adapters from Mini-DisplayPort to VGA or DVI.

Re:Conference rooms

[ledow]

Every school I've ever worked in has VGA equipment as default. PC's, laptop connectors, projectors, monitors, video distribution system and digital signage all have/had VGA connectors. They might have HDMI / DVI *as well* but they all operate on a VGA basis primarily. I can see why - it's simple, it's compatible back to their oldest available machines without having to spend extra money on adapters and convertors (that half the time break or just plain don't work because they bought the wrong pins on their DVI adaptor and expect it to work). The rest of the advantages don't have any bearing - they can get whatever resolution they like going through meters of inexpensive 15-core cable that's been in the walls for years to their projectors over VGA and *not* notice any performance degradation. The only places that I would argue NEED better connectors are those places that are specialist anyway - CAD, Video and huge display signs.

In general use, what advantages does anyone with significant investment in VGA really see from a DVI / HDMI conversion? Hell, I ran a 1024x768 VGA signal over a 75m CAT5e cable with an adaptor (the Cat5e was actually already there, by luck, so wasn't installed with that usage in mind) and that's STILL running a school's main entrance signage on a HUGE TV and nobody cries about the signal quality (the TV also has HDMI, SCART, S-Video, Component, Composite, RF, etc. in and works fine for them all but why bother when the lowest common denominator just works for everyone?).

If something works, that's good enough. Especially if it works on ALL machines you can get (up until now, obviously). If you chose DVI-only then it wouldn't work on older machines without adapters. If you chose HDMI-only, it would work on even less. The transition has taken place so now the other way is beginning to start but it'll be another 3-4 years before schools and large businesses have to go to special efforts (e.g. special order, pick up particular models, or use adaptors) to get VGA inputs/outputs on their devices.

This isn't a shock, like getting rid of PS/2 ports isn't a shock, because there are several alternatives already existing. The problem is that it's an enforced obsolescence of something for not-very-convincing reasons. Give it three years and there'll still be places with VGA convertors everywhere until hardware replacement time is due. VGA isn't a chore to use, or a problem to configure (hell, teachers can manage it - it's just a matter of Fn-Whatever and plugging a cable in). I have *just* been given my first work laptop that had something more than a VGA or S-Video port, and that's because it's really a gaming laptop in order to meet my minimum spec.

Computers will come with VGA. People will buy adaptors for a few years until they buy a non-VGA device on both ends. Then the world will carry on as normal. It wasn't a "disaster" that actually needed to be fixed in the first place - I still have no use for DVI or HDMI devices myself - and thus there are probably millions of people that will have to do something in the future, but they would have to eventually anyway, and it'll be absorbed into their ordinary replacement costs anyway. All it means is that I don't budget quite so much for VGA cables next year and I have to convince my employers that all those perfectly-working interactive whiteboards and projectors really do need, at minimum, a new cable run, a new socket or a new adaptor unless they want me to overhaul the entire place. Big deal, I have to have that conversation about once every six months about *something*.

The sky isn't falling. It wasn't even cracked to start with. We just have this new, brighter, hi-def sky that apparently needs a pair of sunglasses to view properly.

Re:Conference rooms

[marcosdumay]

"I don't know why it seems to be so hard to get a Windows or GNU/Linux system running on a decent notebook to talt to a VGA beamer."

That is because of bad device drivers. Most free drivers for Linux work ok, but the closed ones aren't in any way reliable.

Re:Conference rooms

[Lumpy]

and only for really old conference rooms or ones designed by idiots. Every one I have seen installed over the past 4 years have been HDMI and ethernet. with a vga port available for legacy laptops that converts the VGA to digital for the switcher.

Honestly, if any company is installing VGA only conference rooms, they need to be run out of business.

Re:Conference rooms

[TheRaven64]

I've had problems with projectors from my Mac. The problem is that Apple doesn't provide a way of overriding the 'detect displays' feature. In a lot of places, people run really long VGA cables (often chained together) from the projector (all around the edge of the room), so the cable is way out of spec and can't carry the DCC signal back from the projector. This means that the laptop can't detect the display. With Windows and *NIX, you can just provide it with a resolution and refresh. With the Mac, you need to keep trying and hope that eventually a signal manages to get through.

The really depressing thing about all of this is that it's been years since I've seen a projector that doesn't have a DVI port mounted in such a situation, but most of the time the DVI port is not wired up to the presenter desk.

Re:Conference rooms

[WaroDaBeast]

Do you have any examples of closed drivers not working well? (I'm not trying to challenge you, I just want to know. ;))

I know it's not the same scenario, but hooking up my old laptop (it sports a Geforce Go 6200) with a CRT TV wasn't that hard to do. So... what about them beamers?

Re:Conference rooms

[WaroDaBeast]

EDIT: Forgot to mention that it's running Ubuntu 10.10.

Re:Conference rooms

[Anonymous Coward]

"I don't know why it seems to be so hard to get a Windows or GNU/Linux system running on a decent notebook to talt to a VGA beamer."

That is because of bad device drivers. Most free drivers for Linux work ok, but the closed ones aren't in any way reliable.

Maybe, maybe not. I have experienced some counterexamples to the rule that free display drivers work the way they ought to. It ultimately boils down to a lucky combination of the hardware you're using and it's BIOS settings, the operating system and drivers it's running, and the beamer (and it's configuration or lack thereof). The most spectacular failures I've seen were with Windows (XP) laptops. And then there was a time when X11 was not as "userfriendly" as it is today and PC hardware seemed to be generally a lot quirkier. Times have sure changed in the last 10 years or so, but I'm not sure that free display drivers are the important part of the delicate equation of presenting with a laptop. There's always something that goes wrong or does not work the first time, to the point where people even expect the first attempt to get a clear picture of the right screen to fail. After all it is also about the person who is in charge of the system, but really, should we still be forced to mess with display drivers and configuration scripts when all we want to do is give a talk?

Re:Conference rooms

[guruevi]

Sometimes it's bad drivers and software, most manufacturers think that Windows' controls are not good enough, so provide their own, unique for each card apparently trying to explain how to mirror displays over the phone is hard enough as it is without manufacturers including their own crapware.

Sometimes it's just bad design. If for example you get a brand new Dell with only a VGA port on it for some reason it doesn't detect any external display, so you have to manually enable it after which the main display goes into 320x200. The only way to get it to work is to only enable the internal or the external display (although the drivers say mirror and extend as an availability, it simply doesn't work).

On Mac it's easy to do, just plug it in and it works. Display Preferences can "Detect Displays" in case you have a system that doesn't provide the correct EDID.

Re:Conference rooms

[js_sebastian]

Only place I use VGA anymore (and have used in the past 4-5 years) is for overhead projectors in conference rooms.

And only people who can fail at projecting their slides worse than a laptop with a 1999 linux distro, are those with a mac and no vga adapter... i've seen this happen plenty of times...

Re:Conference rooms

[Anonymous Coward]

We just moved into a huge building built by a university that is synonymous with computing in this country. It has several conference rooms, all served by VGA.

Yes, it could have been built by idiots. Or it could be that all of the employee's laptops have VGA (and many of them, even those ordered last year, like mine, don't have any other display output).

Re:Conference rooms

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as I can tell, the main reason for this is it's an important step in moving towards DRM secured monitors.

Re:Conference rooms

[Voyager529]

...said by someone who hasn't dealt with more professional installations using genlocked component signals using switching gear that costs several thousand dollars a pop.

Conference rooms in offices are one thing. There are professional installations where the cost of replacing the gear is a few orders of magnitude more expensive than replacing a cable.

Re:Conference rooms

[CBravo]

Our racks are full of servers with vga connectors, even the new ones.

Re:Conference rooms

[Anonymous Coward]

I've found one even worse workaround for that: The VGA splitter, with a monitor connected to the DCC-enabled port just to give the computer something to talk to, and the other output driving a projector.

Re:Conference rooms

[m50d]

Having just watch a conference full of mac users running around trying to find the right cables where I just plug the vga lead into my laptop, I think it's not the platform that makes the difference.

Re:Conference rooms

[SuricouRaven]

Radeon under ubuntu, three-monitor setup. Sometimes just ceases to work after a reboot, hard-locking the system and requiring a boot to non-graphical to reinstall them. The newest version does seem to be better than the previous, though - it's not happened since I upgraded.

Re:Conference rooms

[Anonymous Coward]

+1 Reference to HD Vision Ultra High Definition Ultra Sunglasses

Re:Conference rooms

[SuricouRaven]

I have a mac. One of the new mac pros. I also have three monitors, and I am quite sure it does not 'just work' - in particular, the displayport to DVI adaptor (Overpriced Apple brand, purchased with the mac) does not work. Sometimes I could get it to detect the monitor existed, but the picture was red-tinted and fuzzy. The displayport to VGA adaptor also didn't work on one monitor - detected, but not the correct resolution offerings for a widescreen. In the end I had to buy a second DP-VGA adaptor (Low price made-in-China brand), and put the widescreen monitor on the DVI port, the two 4:3 monitors on DP via VGA... and that worked.

Re:Conference rooms

[marcansoft]

The DIY workaround to that would be to cut open a short VGA cable, break out the DDC pins, and solder in a tiny DDC EEPROM with a fairly bog standard configuration written to it. You could even fit the EEPROM inside a VGA connector if you wanted.

Re:Conference rooms

[tknd]

The projectors have a built-in end-of-life device. It's the bulb. The projector companies will likely stop producing the bulbs or make replacement bulbs more expensive than buying a new projector.

Re:Conference rooms

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, because being closed they become damp and mushy on the inside..

Re:Conference rooms

[Doctor Faustus]

i am assuming that shitty old VGA projectors will continue to cause problems for my presentations well beyond 2015

Sometimes, but a lot will depend on the size of the conference room. At my office, we replaced one of our projectors with a 57" TV earlier this year.

Re:Conference rooms

[marcosdumay]

My laptop has an NVidia card exactly because when I was looking to buy it I found so many examples of Randeon failures. Also, NVidia isn't without fault, when I bout it I turned away other 2 models because their GPU was documented to not work well with multiple screans or projectors. I don't have the examples on hand, but they exist, and you'll be able to find them at Google.

The funny thing is that shortly after I bought the laptop I changed everything I worked with, and never had any reason to plug it into a projector. But I've used multiple screans, without any fault.

Re:Conference rooms

[Just Some Guy]

The problem is that it's an enforced obsolescence of something for not-very-convincing reasons.

Have your eyes checked. I'm dead serious. After replacing the VGA connection between my PC and my LCD monitor with a DVI cable, I'd never remotely consider downgrading back to VGA. I had always assumed that VGA's ghosting and blurriness were just par for the course, and now that I don't have them, I'd never go back. I'm not talking about nitpicky audiophile-grade BS stuff, either; it's nice to see just one vertical line where there's only supposed to be one.

Re:Conference rooms

[bored]

After replacing the VGA connection between my PC and my LCD monitor with a DVI cable, I'd never remotely consider downgrading back to VGA.

Personally, I've been using DVI pretty much since I could afford a monitor with DVI. That said, if you saw that large of a difference between VGA and DVI, you were using crappy cables, monitors, video cards or over driving your setup. Generally, the most obvious problems were cables. For some reason people would buy a big expensive monitor and then use a crappy cable (it always seemed to me that the more you paid for a monitor the less likely it was to come with a cable), or a shitty extension. Its one thing to laugh at the people running audio on expensive cables, its quite another thing to attempt a few hundred Mhz of bandwidth over an 8 foot cable that cost $1. Lots of times, lowering the refresh from 120Hz or higher helps too. Back before CRT's explicitly disallowed "unsupported" resolutions, a lot of monitors would try to sync to anything you sent them, and people were more than happy to push a monitor to 160Hz cause "faster refresh=better" in most peoples minds.

Also, back in the day, a lot of people choose cards from manufactures like matrox because the image quality was better (BTW: early nvidia cards were absolute crap). So, you couldn't just assume that everything would look good, like you can today. With DVI LCD's if the monitor shows a picture its generally pretty good.

BTW: I buy the cheapest DVI/HDMI cables, and I've rarely had a problem. So in one regard DVI lowered my cable bills, but I doubt it (or HDMI in particular) does that for most people. I have a 8 port HDMI switch connected to a bunch of components with $.75 cent ebay cables, and a ~40' fry's cable ($30) going to the TV. Works fantastically, although I had a $3 cable that caused snow plugged into one of the switch ports. I laugh my ass off at the people paying $50 at worst buy for a 6' HDMI cable.

Re:Conference rooms

[mtmra70]

VGA will live for a LOOOOONG time. It's great for many many reasons:

You can make custom length cables with RGBHV cable

It supports up (if not higher than) 1920x1080

If one of the legs drops (RGB) you still have a signal

It goes FAR greater distances than DVI or DisplayPort

You can pin covert it to run on various cables (CAT5, RG6x5, etc)

Re:Conference rooms

[Just Some Guy]

I was never a refresh maniac, but I did like it in the 80-85Hz range. Anything much below that would start to give visible flicker that drove me batty. I never could understand people who were happy with 50Hz and didn't see the strobe light sitting on their desk. I sure liked my resolution, though. I had a 19" Samsung CRT that thrived at 1600x1200x80, but I tried a lot of cables before I found one that looked acceptably good at that level. I figured that if I'm going to stare at something for 8+ hours a day, I want it to look nice.

But I've never paid more than $10 for an HDMI cable, and that was only when I needed one now and that was the cheapest I could find at Target on a moment's notice.

Re:Conference rooms

[ledow]

Last few years I've worked in at least eight schools, several dozen or more interactive whiteboards / classroom projectors / computer suites in every single one, used 8 hours a day, every day, in every classroom with 30 kids in each class. Every single connector has been VGA over a VGA cable (either in the wall with sockets on the wall and a M-M VGA cable to a laptop, or directly between a computer and VGA monitor). I think maybe two of them had a DVI-VGA connector because the installers didn't know any better but it was still a VGA analog signal going into the device and being displayed. And most places really used the cheapest shit they could afford over 5-10m VGA cables that went through walls and into ceilings and were basically abused on installation.

Not *ONE* single complaint about image quality that can be put down to a VGA cable rather than a DVI. In fact, the only complaints were - single pin missing contact on the cable, "colourising" the output because of the missing RGB signal, projectors out of focus / dull or dead lamps. I had infinitely more complaints about the resolution being TOO high (and thus making it hard to select text on an interactive whiteboard with a finger), and not one single complaint about the setup not being good enough quality, irritating eyes, flickering for some people, etc. Considering that means several THOUSAND students, of every age from 5-18, all of whom have to stare at those displays output for hours each day and concentrate on it, I think *you're* in the minority here. And don't think that if even one student had complained we wouldn't have had to do something about it - the potential liability for eye problems, photosensitivity etc. there is HUGE, and parents would happily sue the school / borough if they even *imagined* there could be a problem (we had parent protests in one school about using wireless networks, and having a mobile phone mast near the school and had to stop using both).

For 99.99% (at least) of people, VGA has absolutely no disadvantage to them. Some people are more fussy or have higher requirements (yeah, if you want to do stupidly high resolution, or run it over a hugely long cable (e.g. for a city-size advertising display) then yes, you need something slightly better) - but for mere mortals, VGA cables and signals have been absolutely fine since 1987. Strange that VGA has survived since the birth of the personal computer without anyone really noticing had terrible that signal is, isn't it? If it was that bad, *everything* would have been DVI a *long* time ago. As it is, one single company has *just* announced that it might stop production of VGA ports (but not the underlying signal technology, which is carried through on DVI pins just the same) in the future.

Re:Conference rooms

[Anonymous Coward]

And a lot of people thought cassette tapes where pretty cool, too. What's your point? DVI is both cheaper and better.

Re:Conference rooms

[rrohbeck]

Come on - it's nice to have time to go to the bathroom and/or get some coffee while the presenter sorts out the problems between his/her laptop and the projector.
Happens in over 50% of the meetings I go to.

Paving the way for HDCP 2.0

[Anonymous Coward]

No VGA unless an adapter is used. That is fine, but I'm sure another side effect will be that VGA monitors will go dark if you want to play HD video. I fear that even DisplayPort monitors likely wouldn't work unless they have the latest (HDCP 2012 or whatever they will call it) standard.

Great cash cow for hardware makers, sucks for consumers -- it likely will end up that if users want to watch new movies, they have to upgrade the computer, video card, and monitor to support the copy protection.

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0

[Opportunist]

it likely will end up that if users want to watch new movies, they have to upgrade the computer, video card, and monitor to support the copy protection.

Proabably some will. Most will just figure out that it's way cheaper to head for TPB or the likes, get movies in a format their hardware supports and that's also more flexible when it comes to the storage medium it can reside on.

Sometimes I wonder what's the advantage of those "copy protected" devices I hear about. I can't see a single good thing in them.

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0

[Talderas]

You're highly optimistic regarding the average consumer.

What drugs are you consuming?

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0

[Kjella]

I fear that even DisplayPort monitors likely wouldn't work unless they have the latest (HDCP 2012 or whatever they will call it) standard.

DPCP actually. I'm sure'll they'll want to push everyone there now that HDMI is utterly broken.

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0

[Lumpy]

That is easily fixed with a hdmi to VGA adapter that also scrubs the useless HDCP out. I have 2 myself and they work great to hook a hdmi bluray player to an analog only plasma display.

Search for HDFury3 to get your own.

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0

[gman003]

I'd say that you're highly pessimistic of the average "consumer". Given the choice between a) spend significant amounts of money upgrading everything, b) piracy, or c) just not watching the movie, most would pick B or C. You'll note that most people still use DVDs and lack an HDCP 1.0-compliant set up. Hell, there's still people using VHS, because there's really not much incentive to spend non-trivial amounts of money on upgrading, just to watch recent Hollywood movies.

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0

[SuricouRaven]

"It also adds support for verifying the proximity of the receiver and transmitter"

So what happens if I want to use a really long cable, as in giving a presentation?

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0

[CyberDragon777]

Don't play a protected Blu-ray movie to the audience?

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0

[Opportunist]

Well, I follow this train of thought:

1. People like watching TV, like watching movies and most of them have no effing clue what makes their colorful boxes tick.
2. People are used to things "just working" and don't really understand why suddenly they shouldn't be watching movies anymore, or recording them. Video recorders have been around for ages. They're used to taping their favorite shows.
3. All these people know someone who is "clued in". I assume this because so far the "professional TV installation" business has not really taken off, despite it becoming more and more of a arcane art to make the whole lot of different thingamajigs work together.

So what will happen?

Joe Justwannawatch gets a new movie. It doesn't play. He calls his friend Ken Knowshisstuff and asks "what gives". Ken will clue Joe in that there's this new copy protection thingie and he now would have to get a lot of new (and expensive) hardware. Joe is furious, his TV and other arcane boxes are just like 3 years old and he's used to those boxes lasting him for 5, 10 or even more years before they break down and have to be replaced because repairing them is not really an option anymore. He's definitly NOT used to his "TV boxes" becoming "obsolete" and cease to work despite working just fine. Joe is really royally pissed. Ken will inform him that he could, technically, get the movies some other way. Joe, used to copying VHS tapes and definitely pissed enough at "the man" for trying to rip him off, has certainly no moral objections to copying content from now on.

And another happy non-customer is born.

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0

[Opportunist]

I'd go a step further and mention my dad here.

He's the proverbial Luddite, and I can't even fathom why and how he overcame his technophobia and bought me my first computer when I was just 10 (about a quarter century ago), which was neither cheap nor trivial for him to do. But that's not the point now.

Don't get me wrong. He loves his car, he loves tinkering with it, he loves making repairs around the house but anything getting close to "microelectronics" is something he wants nothing of. There is a reason why he flat out refuses to get a car that's younger than twenty years because, you guessed it, it's "too computery" for him.

He likes old war movies. You know, the World War 2 kind, Battle of Britain, Longest Day, that kind. Do you think he cares for Dolby Surround? Quite the opposite. That's not the way he knows his movies! HD? Fuck that, he wants HIS movies. You know, the old way. Mono. Stereo MAYBE if it was that way when it came out, else, don't even try to convince him that's an option! He wants HIS movies the way HIS movies have always been and will always be.

I got him a collection of these movies on DVD. He did his best to look happy, but I could see that this just wasn't "his" movies. "Remastered" means "ruined" to him. he wants his movies "authentic", with the grains and the imperfections and the shaky camera and the ... you get the idea.

The very last thing he'd want is "better" quality. He wants his movies with "character". And somehow, I can understand him. I mean, let's be honest here, when Star Wars (the original ones, not the crappy ones) were "remastered", I was torn between "ohhh, shiny!" and "that ain't my Star Wars". It just didn't have that "rough" charme the old movies originally had.

AND HAN SHOT FIRST!

Re:Paving the way for HDCP 2.0

[SuricouRaven]

I work at a school. Teachers often show DVDs to the class for educational purposes, including films (Holes, mostly - English classes are studying the book). We also have a huge screen in the main hall with a projector on the end of an extreme-length cable, which is used for the biweekly film nights - a fully legal, licensed after-school club, which uses plain off-the-shelf DVDs.

VGA = 640x480 or HD15?

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds like they're talking about the connector?

Re:VGA = 640x480 or HD15?

[clone52431]

Correct. They should’ve been more specific.

Damn...

[splerdu]

I thought we would finally be rid of Spike's Video Game Awards.

Re:Damn...

[adisakp]

They're coming up this Saturday night. Set your DVR's. Last year had the cast of Jersey Shores and Mike Tyson -- what more could you want?

On a more serious note, I work in video games on Mortal Kombat, a couple guys from our studio are actually going to be in the audience for the awards ceremonies, and I *ACTUALLY* do have my DVR set to record them.

Re:Damn...

[Anonymous Coward]

Last year had the cast of Jersey Shores and Mike Tyson -- what more could you want?.

A meteor.

Macs = Mini-DisplayPort

[Toe, The]

Mini-DisplayPort, as evidenced here:
http://store.apple.com/us/search?find=DisplayPort

Tell me they won't get rid of RF TV jack out too??

[Viol8]

Oh , wait...

I'm sticking with VGA

[Dynedain]

On both of my HDTVs (different brands, a cheap-o from 3-4 years ago, and a high-quality one this year) I'm using a VGA cable from the DVI out on my computers. Why? Because whenever I use an DVI to HDMI cable, it results in horrendous overscan instead of displaying at the native screen resolution. This means everything is scaled up, even though the monitor resolution is reported correctly to Windows and OSX, leading to horrible image quality. You can somewhat correct this with system display settings, but this still results in scaling up, to scale down, and you can't fully eliminate the blurriness unless you run at native resolution.

On the other hand, if I use VGA, I get native resolution on both TVs and both computers, with no adjusting required. 1920x1080 is well within the specs that VGA cables can support. I guess display port to VGA is not a problem, but I'll be pissed if HDTV manufacturers force HDMI.

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[Pojut]

I'm still trying to figure out why more TV manufacturers don't include an actual DVI port on their products...

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[NJRoadfan]

Because HDMI is electronically the same. What they should be doing is going a menu option to turn off rescaling/overscanning of signals at the display's native resolutions.

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[Lumpy]

they do it's called HDMI. I hook DVI into a HDMI port all the time.

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[horatio]

I'm not 100% sure, but the HDTV set I bought just a few months ago came w/ a VGA port, but no DVI ports. I think this is because HDMI and DVI are somehow compatible without conversion?

From wikipedia

Because HDMI is electrically compatible with the signals used by Digital Visual Interface (DVI), no signal conversion is necessary, nor is there a loss of video quality when a DVI-to-HDMI adapter is used.[3]

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[Neil Boekend]

On my TV(Samsung) the overscan problem appeared too. It sucked so I chose to mess in the menus of the TV and disable the feature that caused it. I seem to remember setting it to Game Mode. It fixed it. Haven't had a problem since.

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[Wildfire Darkstar]

My first HDTV had that option. By default (and oddly) it would overscan but not rescale, which lead to a frankly worthless black box around the whole screen. It was easily turned off in the menu, though.

My current TV does not. It does the whole rescaling/overscanning thing, and it makes using a DVI/HDMI hookup for my computer worthless. Luckily, it has a VGA port, even though it doesn't maintain the aspect ratio when scaling non-16:9 resolutions (another downgrade from the earlier set).

I miss my old TV so much, dammit....

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[RJHelms]

From my experience there usually is, but they don't document it very well.

For example, I have a Samsung TV with a PC hooked up by HDMI. To turn off overscan and rescaling, I have to go into the menu to rename the input and rename that HDMI port "DVI/PC". Everything in the UI suggests that's just the name I'll see on the input menu, and for every other combination of input type and possible name I've tried, that's all it is. The manufacturer's docs say I should do this when connecting a PC but don't say anything as to why. But the problem isn't that there's no option to do this, just that the option seems to be deliberately buried.

I imagine many other TV manufacturers have similarly stupid systems.

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[daid303]

Funny, it's the other way around for me on my TV. It has a VGA port, but refuses to go beyond 1024x786, which looks horrible on a 42" TV. HDMI detects the right native resolution and works instantly.

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[NJRoadfan]

Odd coming from Samsung, seeing that they make PC monitors as well. My biggest gripe with LCD/Plasma TVs is the fact that they don't allow for 15.75khz RGB input on their VGA ports. I really don't want to spend extra to buy an external upscaler or a commercial/industrial panel to get around whats basically a firmware limitation.

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[hedwards]

Essentially yes, but HDMI adds additional features. Sound and DRM support being the main drivers. Personally, when I want a TV with DVI, I just go for a monitor with HDTV support. Mine has DVI, HDMI and VGA.

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[uglyduckling]

All of the HDTVs that I've come across have a direct scan mode, called by a number of different names e.g. "actual pixels", "direct scan", "source direct" etc., that takes out all the processing and makes the TV into a large and colour-inaccurate DVI or HDMI monitor. You probably just need to dig a bit deeper.

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[mrfaithful]

The default is to overscan on every TV I've seen, but the last few I've bought in recent years allow you to switch off the overscan from the TV menu. Sometimes it's called 1:1, sometimes Native, sometimes Full. Often it's simply listed in the same menu as the 4:3/16:9 widescreen menu thingy.

You'll find that all your HDMI sources like BR players, consoles, etc. will be running scaled up too though it's not so immediately obvious when there's no start menu on screen!

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[adolf]

My Samsung A550 LCD does just fine.

I just push the button on the remote that controls aspect ratio until the screen says "Just Scan." And then, it's 1920x1080 worth of pixel-perfect 52" fun.

There is some wizardry on this set about inputs named "PC," but such wizardry has everything to do with reducing post-processing and latency and nothing at all to do with scaling.

In fact, the only problem I've ever had with aspect ratios and PCs since I entered this modern LCD craze a few years ago, is that certain recent versions of nVidia's drivers assume the following:

If DisplayArea == 1920x1080, we must be talking to a TV. And since TV == overscan, we must pre-apply an underscan -- aka, a black border all the way around the image, and scale (not resize!) things to fit within that border.

I guess they assume that all 1920x1080 displays perform overscan. My Samsung TV, as mentioned, is adjustable for that ("16x9" mode is overscanned, "Just Scan" is not). But for my 24" 1920x1080 computer monitor (which obviously doesn't give a fuck about overscan games since it's just a monitor), it was really fucking bothersome until I figured it out.

This behavior is, of course, very wrong on a number of different levels (Hey! Let's take our 1920x1080 framebuffer, shrink it by 5%, and then output it at a blurry 1920x1080 with a black border!). But it's what they do, anyway...

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't figured out yet why they can't make a TV that also doubles as a decent monitor. All of them seem to screw with scaling of the image, and the color reproduction and dynamic range are terrible.

Re:I'm sticking with VGA

[josath]

My TV has a VGA port and a HDMI port. The resolution of the panel is 1366x768. The funny thing is, over DVI, you can only send 1280x720 or 1920x1080, and they get scaled by the TV to 1366x768. If you want pixel-accurate, you HAVE to use the VGA port if you want to get the full 1366x768 pixels.

Video Cards Will Continue It On

[Ngarrang]

Intel will drop VGA from their chipsets and this will be a boon for video card makers. Video card makers already cater to the those who need better video, or different ports, or more ports, or whatever. As long as monitors include a VGA port, card makers will, too. Intel has the luxury of being able to drop it. It will save them money. They also know that no one is being left behind thanks to card makers. It is a win for both sides.

Re:Video Cards Will Continue It On

[Sockatume]

DVI can carry a VGA signal via an adaptor. You don't need an seperate VGA port on there. I've got a card from as long ago as 2005 that has two DVI ports and came with a matching pair of adaptors.

Re:Video Cards Will Continue It On

[hedwards]

Not really, my PNY GeForce 9400GT has two DVI ports and no VGA ports. They just included an adapter in the package for anybody that needed to go with VGA.

Plus, since when is Intel a legitimate vendor of graphics chips? They haven't released a decent card in at least a decade.

Re:Video Cards Will Continue It On

[tepples]

Plus, since when is Intel a legitimate vendor of graphics chips?

Almost every netbook has Intel GMA (Graphics My Arse) video, except for netbooks with NVIDIA ION chipset that I've never noticed in stores.

Re:Video Cards Will Continue It On

[VisceralLogic]

Not really, my PNY GeForce 9400GT has two DVI ports and no VGA ports. They just included an adapter in the package for anybody that needed to go with VGA.

However, my MSI 9800GT has a DVI, a VGA, and an HDMI (as well as a DVI->VGA adapter).

Re:Video Cards Will Continue It On

[omglolbah]

Which wont matter if they drop the VGA output from the chipset.
The physical dvi port has some of the pins connected to the VGA outputs on the chipset. If those outputs no longer exist then the vga signal obviously wont be available regardless of the dvi->vga wiring converters that come with most cards.

The issue isnt the port, it is the chipset.

What next, floppy drives?

[retech]

Seriously, all this fast paced change and incredibly quick adoption of new technology makes my head spin. I just got through building the recommended case out of plywood for my Apple motherboard. Now I find out that I will have to use some fancy new type of video doohickey. Gees Louise!

Standardization of Laptop LCD Interfaces

[2themax]

Hopefully this will mean that it will one day be possible to swap a laptop LCD with another one from a completely different manufacturer.

Right now every laptop manufacturer seems to use different electrical configurations, connectors and EDID.

Re:Standardization of Laptop LCD Interfaces

[SuricouRaven]

They may very well be electrically compatible - but I imagine the screws will be in different places.

I'm still using CGA you insensitive clod

[Chrisq]

I'm still using CGA you insensitive clod

Re:I'm still using CGA you insensitive clod

[Yvan256]

I don't need your low resolution and puke-inducing color palettes, I'd rather use Hercules!

Re:I'm still using CGA you insensitive clod

[clone52431]

I actually had a computer with a Hercules graphics adapter and an amber monochrome monitor. I had the manual to my dot-matrix printer and wrote a program in BASIC to put it in graphics mode and print monochrome graphics on it. IIRC it could BLOAD video memory dumps to print, and I included BSAVE hotkey functions in a few of my other programs to save screenshots that I could print out.

Good times...

Re:I'm still using CGA you insensitive clod

[RoverDaddy]

I had a similar setup, but my -very early- IBM-PC dot-matrix printer did not even have a dot-addressable graphics mode. Instead, its font had a particular range of 64 characters it printed as 2x3 'block graphics'. I wrote a BASIC program to bload video images, and then translate them to the proper character sequence for the printer. And oh yes, relative to the discussion, I had a CGA adapter and monitor. How great it was that you had two choices of the 4 colors it could display at once.

Re:I'm still using CGA you insensitive clod

[Anonymous Coward]

How you like that early digital video?

Re:I'm still using CGA you insensitive clod

[PingSpike]

The "Color" part of this of this Color Graphics Adapter is really stretching the definition of color.

Re:I'm still using CGA you insensitive clod

[Anonymous Coward]

In what sense? Cyan and magenta aren't colours?

Bye VGA

[SphericalCrusher]

Even though that's a few years off, it's still an announced end to the VGA video interface. VGA has been dead to me for a few years now, but it's crazy how fast time has flown.

Re:Bye VGA

[TheGratefulNet]

I never know if my system will be a desktop or end up as a server (spare system). in my 'server room' (ha!) I have a bunch of systems that I run mostly headless, but occasionally I have to see some console message or control the boot process or something. maybe the network is not up (stupid persistent.rules.linux, doh!). but I'll need console access and for pc, console != rs232. console = vga and keyboard.

for that reason, I've been buying mostly boards that have at least an onboard vga connector. this lets me use a fancy card for desktop use but later I can remove that card and run the system headless and not even block airflow with a video card at all or use up extra power. onboard video console is almost a MUST HAVE and I don't like it being taken away. its just too useful.

Re:Bye VGA

[Anonymous Coward]

Our first IBM Compatible PC was an ICL Model 30, with a grey-scale VGA display (offered via a staff purchase scheme as my wife worked for ICL at the time). Twin floppy disks, and an 8086 processor (upgraded shortly afterwards to a NEC V30, then a 2MB memory board, and finally a 20MB hard disk).

I must admit I'm sad to see VGA go - it was the first "nice" PC display standard (CGA/EGA/MDA etc don't count), especially as it seems to be mainly DRM that is forcing the change to HDMI etc.

As for availability: in 2009 I needed to buy a PCIe graphics card for a new machine, and I only managed to find *one* card (an Asus 4830) that had dual DVI-I outputs: the rest were all DVI-I + VGA, so I'm not sure that the card makers think VGA is dead. Cheap LCD monitors also seem to be mainly VGA only.

When PS2 is better - one example

[BenEnglishAtHome]

In my organization, all computers run full disk encryption with a pre-boot screen that pops up to enter a password. We use both Guardian Edge and WinMagic products for this purpose. We've found that in one fairly common failure mode seen while Guardian Edge Hard Disk disk encryption is used, when we need to type in an admin account name and password to unlock machines, the machines simply don't recognize USB devices. Plug in a PS2 keyboard, reboot, and then we can log on and fix 'em.

I'm pretty clueless about why this is the case but I also know I'll be keeping a couple of PS2 keyboards around until I retire in 5 years.

I'd guess that if this is the case with us, there are probably other "pre-boot" situations where PS2 is usable but USB is not.

Anyone who actually understands this mechanism and is willing to explain it - please chime in.

Re:When PS2 is better - one example

[Guspaz]

There's an option in most BIOSes about if they should handle USB keyboard support themselves until the OS takes over. You probably need to flip the setting.

Re:When PS2 is better - one example

[espiesp]

Do these full disk encryption solutions load before or after the BIOS post? If before, you're screwed because not even the bios has had a chance to enable legacy USB support. If it's after the BIOS, you'll want to make sure you have legacy USB support enabled in the BIOS. This should allow you to use your USB keyboard before the OS loads.

If you've already tried that, then it's likely that the Encryption suites block all sorts of hardware devices as a security measure or just aren't written well :-)

Re:When PS2 is better - one example

[petermgreen]

Afaict it's a bios issue. During the early boot phase the bios is doing the job of providing basic input from the keyboard and output to the screen (hence the name bios ;) ).

Unfortunately there was a long time lag between the introduction of USB and proper bios support for UISB keyboards (especially for keyboards behind hubs such as the ones in most USB KVM switches). And even when the bios does support it it's not always turned on.

After windows loads there is another phase of annoyance if devices have moved ports and windows trys to figure out what is going on and load the right drivers.

Re:When PS2 is better - one example

[BenEnglishAtHome]

USB legacy support is turned on as a part of our standard builds. The problem still happens. Interesting that all the replies so far have pointed to the same cause. I think I'll add a line to our troubleshooting checklist to check that BIOS setting, anyway, just in case we've made some setup errors.

Re:When PS2 is better - one example

[Ark42]

Unfortunately, in many BIOSes, you need to use a PS/2 keyboard to even get into the BIOS to change that setting. They've probably fixed that on newer motherboards, but I don't know. I still use PS/2 keyboards exclusively.

Re:When PS2 is better - one example

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly I once saw a motherboard that allowed this setting to be turned off (usb keyboard wouldn't work until OS picked it up) and there was no PS/2 port. Left me with the question of how the hell they expected you to get back into the BIOS to change the setting. The only solution I found was to wipe BIOS settings using hardware jumper and re-configure.

Not gonna happen

[enterix]

I have clearly seen Mother computer on Nostromo using CRT honey text display... none of CRT monitors have DVI... and that is way in the future...

Not to mention windfall patent wins

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention windfall patent wins for the owners of the View Denial Units patents.

PS how will they work with Linux or BSD? How about Open Solaris? AIX? HPUX? And so on...?

Display port to 5 connector coax adapter?

[GaryOlson]

I still have in storage a backup Sun monitor and cables with 5 coax connectors. Seems the scanning electron microscope controller output only provides that type of connectivity. Anyone have a Display Port adapter for that type of equipment?

Re:Display port to 5 connector coax adapter?

[Amouth]

i have a VGA to 5 coax cable. it even handles the sync on green if needed (although that is a second adapter..)

there are way to many HDMI only cable and sat boxe

[Anonymous Coward]

there are way to many HDMI only cable and sat boxes out there that will need to be swapped out for that to work.

its about DRM and control

[TheGratefulNet]

analog video is video you can't 'control'. no DRM (or none that is hard).

its not at all surprising people of interest want to kill it.

they are convincing people to abandon spdif, for audio, too. the new kids who are brought up with hdmi think there's nothing wrong with it. in fact, the way they mixed audio and video made the whole combo stream all DRMed. we once had mostly free and clear spdif (scms ignored since it was defeatable easily) and then they upped the bitrate so that spdif toslink and copper paths would not easily (or at all) carry the new digital audio formats (blu ray audio and so on). the new codecs are using bitstream audio for all channels which is HUGE overkill for sound tracks on movies, but its a middle finger from the entertainment industry saying 'at least we get to fill up your disks with more bits than we needed'. effectively a DOS attack from them to you, stealing your disk space when you do direct BD rips or keep BD copies around.

hdmi audio is now in the so-called 'protected path' and that's never a good thing for consumers. spdif audio was never in any protected path and that's why they are trying to kill it.

vga video is also not in a protected path and so they also want to kill it.

it really is all about 'migrating the user away' from the open formats and onto closed, controlled ones.

Re:its about DRM and control

[ToasterMonkey]

they are convincing people to abandon spdif, for audio, too. the new kids who are brought up with hdmi think there's nothing wrong with it. in fact, the way they mixed audio and video made the whole combo stream all DRMed. we once had mostly free and clear spdif (scms ignored since it was defeatable easily) and then they upped the bitrate so that spdif toslink and copper paths would not easily (or at all) carry the new digital audio formats (blu ray audio and so on). the new codecs are using bitstream audio for all channels which is HUGE overkill for sound tracks on movies, but its a middle finger from the entertainment industry saying 'at least we get to fill up your disks with more bits than we needed'. effectively a DOS attack from them to you, stealing your disk space when you do direct BD rips or keep BD copies around.

Wow, a conspiracy to add too much quality to the media we buy so we are discouraged to make copies of them. So eeeeeeevil. They even put a mandatory scratch resistance layer on DB discs to make them EEeeeeviillly last longer.
Personally, I think if you had to buy them, they aren't "rights". You are buying permission and it comes with conditions. If you don't like it, go make movies or something. Yah, the government intervened and decided what a fair amount of permission is, but that does not give it equivalence to any basic rights, you still pay for it.

They aren't rights any more than you have the right to drive on public roads, or the right to surf the Internet, or right to touch a strippers titties.

Why are you still squabbling over fake "rights" that you BOUGHT? Whether the government gives you protection or not, DON'T BUY THE STUFF!

Re:its about DRM and control

[ShavedOrangutan]

My new LCD TV and cable box only output SPDIF and my amplifier and speakers are analog. I had to open the TV case, clip the internal speaker wires, and connect them to audio plugs. It works quite well.

So I could just plug a tape recorder into the speaker output. I have to wonder if the DRM would refuse to play HD content if it doesn't detect exactly the right impedance on the speaker out. Wouldn't be a surprise.

Re:its about DRM and control

[Kjella]

Honestly, I think it's practical and less clutter if there's one cable for video and sound and some control/USB signals just to have the flexibility. Music has lost the DRM and it's quite probably not coming back, what good was the movie sound track without the picture anyway? Many things about BluRay is overkill, you didn't technically need 50 GB H.264 to deliver HDTV but that's what you got so you just ramp up the bitrates until it's full. Like, why not when you're pressing the disc I don't think it matters at all how much is on it, the cost is the same anyway. Why drop the tiniest bit of picture or sound quality if it comes free? In their mind it's never going to be anywhere else than the disc. Not everything they do is an extension of DRM, in this case I think it was simply completely irrelevant to them. As for trying to do away with VGA, well doh. Monitors and TVs are now also digital devices. Why would you convert 1920x1080 digital pixels to analog then back to digital? It adds cost, it adds product complexity, it adds power usage and the auto-adjustment still sometimes fail to get it right or flickers as you change mode. Apart from HDCP, pretty much everything was better when they moved from VGA to DVI in my opinion. Clearly they have a DRM agenda but it's not *all* about doing it just for the DRM.

Re:its about DRM and control

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I think if you had to buy them, they aren't "rights".

Well what you personally think and the laws of the USA are not compatible (and hopefully they remain that way, although I haven't had a lot of faith in congress to look out for the rights of its citizens lately)

Re:its about DRM and control

[adolf]

The reason for this is simple: As we all plainly know, the only motivation companies have for releasing improved formats is evil.

Nevermind the brilliant pixel-perfect displays that DVI and HDMI and Displayport allow. Nevermind 8 channels of either uncompressed or losslessly-compressed audio over one cable in a consumer environment.

No, sir. The ONLY reason is evil.

Why was TOSLINK abaondoned? Was it a lousy format that suffered due to the shitty characteristics of its plastic optical conductor that barely worked even on a good day? Absolutely not! It died because it represented a weapon against EVIL.

*sigh*

UGH

[canajin56]

Great. A VGA Cable costs $5. A DVI cable costs $25, and that's if you order from a really cheap vendor, and you have to pay shipping on that shit. If you go to Best Buy, they have their $50 gold plated one. If that's in stock at all. Usually it's just the $100+ Monster DVI cable...Fucking wonderful.

Re:UGH

[IICV]

Umm? Or how about this?

Maybe you should stop buying cables at brick and mortar stores? They always rip you off on cables, no exceptions - the theory being, I imagine, that you need to have the cable right now or else you wouldn't be buying it from them.

Re:UGH

[ZombieBraintrust]

A DVI cable costs $4 if you get it from a cheap vendor like Monoprice. Best Buy will sell you a $60 dollar Monstar VGA cable as well.

Re:UGH

[jimicus]

I know it's UK prices, but you are getting seriously ripped off.

Re:UGH

[Amouth]

and the best part - is for VGA - the quality of the cable matters - for DVI it doesn't..

VGA is analog and there for poor conductors and degrade the signal and a cause a change to the image

DVI is digital and there for a poor conductor can only effect signal if it prevents transmission at the necessary rate..

love how marketing has turned the avg joe into an idiot..

Go to Monoprice

[tepples]

A VGA Cable costs $5. A DVI cable costs $25, and that's if you order from a really cheap vendor, and you have to pay shipping on that shit.

You have to pay shipping on the $5 VGA cable too; the VGA cables I saw at Best Buy were far more expensive than $5. So you might as well go to Monoprice and order some $5 HDMI cables and some $5 network cables to be shipped in the same box, and then sell them to friends and family at a reasonable markup. Do you see the business opportunity yet?

But another problem is with standard-definition TVs and DVD recorders. I predict that used CRT SDTVs will still sit on the shelves of thrift stores come this 2015 deadline. But right now, the adapters to convert PC video to composite and S-Video are designed only for VGA signals.

DVI Cables

[greatgreygreengreasy]

Where I work, we have boxes and boxes of left over DVI cables. All our monitors came with them, yet we use maybe 1 out of 100. I'm sure there are plenty of other places like us, willing to unload them cheap, if you look around. And these are not used, still sealed in the OEM packaging.

Back in the day, there was 1600x1200

[tepples]

Most VGA cables cannot take the frequencies required to transmit a HD signal cleanly so you get pretty nasty ghosting.

In the CRT era, PC display resolutions climbed to 1152x864 and 1600x1200. These have almost the same pixel rate as the currently popular 1280x720 and 1920x1080 formats respectively. Did you get ghosting on your larger VGA CRT?

Re:Back in the day, there was 1600x1200

[0123456]

In the CRT era, PC display resolutions climbed to 1152x864 and 1600x1200.

More than that. My old CRT used to handle 2048x1536 from a VGA input.

Re:Back in the day, there was 1600x1200

[kimvette]

CRT monitors on the high end often went much higher. I used to run my monitors at 1920x1440 and 2048x1536. The only reason I don't use those monitors any more is they take up a ton of desk space. I really miss the vertical screen estate - it makes editing specs, code, and spreadsheets much easier. It is a real shame that as monitors increased in size the supported resolutions decreased. I know higher resolution screens exist (up to 2560 x 1600) but they start at $1,100, plus Samsung doesn't offer any. :(

Re:Back in the day, there was 1600x1200

[tepples]

I really miss the vertical screen estate - it makes editing specs, code, and spreadsheets much easier.

Have you tried putting your code and manual side-by-side by tiling the windows? In Windows XP, click one window in the taskbar, Ctrl+right click another, and choose Tile Vertically. In newer versions of Windows, Win+Left and Win+Right might work.

It is a real shame that as monitors increased in size the supported resolutions decreased.

There's more margins in the consumer TV market than in the PC monitor market.

Re:Back in the day, there was 1600x1200

[bored]

I really miss the vertical screen estate

I prefer 4x3 monitors, but you just need to select your monitors more carefully, and buy ones with stands that allow the monitors to rotate.

a 1920x1080 monitor rotated to 1080x1920 is pretty good for vertical real-estate. You may have to screw with cleartype if your running windows, but its well worth it. Of course I rotate my 4x3 1600x1200 monitors (at work) too, at home I found a irresistible set of 24" 1920x1200 IPS panels on ebay for $150 to replace my old 4x3's a couple years ago. The only thing wrong with the 24" widescreens is that they don't support HDCP (darn hu?). Its actually pretty good, because it reduces my temptation to get lazy and allow HDCP on my PC. Right now, I have an "alternate" method of HD content extraction that allows me to play blury's on my PC (and other stuff) without dealing with all the BS, or corrupting my signal path.

Re:Back in the day, there was 1600x1200

[kimvette]

I have one that rotates (it's an Acer. Ick.) but it maxes out at 1920x1200. My other monitor is a Samsung and it is limited to 1920x1080. The problem with rotating it result in a horizontal dimension of 1080 pixels wide. Whether you view it in portrait or landscape orientation, the lowered screen estate is annoying. You could say I could use my multiple monitor setup more efficiently, and on the desktop you'd be right. I'm sick of the clutter though so I will be eliminating one monitor - the Acer is getting the heave-ho soon (the Samsung looks nicer in my bedroom and vertical resolution isn't as critical for me at home any more), and the Samsung doesn't rotate.

However, it's a bigger problem on my laptop; I do 99% of my real work on my laptop and the maximum resolution is 1920x1200. How do you propose I rotate the screen on that? :) At the office I do often set up an external monitor when I need to edit product specs and run spreadsheets, but it doesn't resolve the basic issue of the limited resolutions of today's mainstream monitors.

I know, I know, suck it up and drop $1,100 on a monitor. It is hard to justify it though when that cash can go to other stuff.

I like widescreen for movies. Give me more vertical screen estate on computer monitors though, mmmkay?

Even worse, more and more mainstream monitors are only 1920x1080. I understand why - the manufacturers are being cheap and using the same LCD panels for both monitor and 1080p television offerings. Another 120 vertical pixels lost. :(

Cost of poor quality

[tepples]

It's actually a good business model if you make a monitor that only lasts 2-3 years opposed to one that lasts decades.

Until it comes to bite you in the behind when buyers start redeeming their product replacement plans.

Re:Cost of poor quality

[BenoitRen]

Which is where HD came in to give consumers another reason to buy new TVs.

DPCP/HDCP

[tepples]

DisplayPort [...] doesn't require you to pay a royalty to use.

Until the Hollywood-endorsed operating system used on the majority of home and office PCs fails to recognize DisplayPort monitors that fail to implement Hollywood-endorsed display encryption. DPCP and HDCP both have a hefty royalty.

Small laptops don't have video cards

[tepples]

Intel will drop VGA from their chipsets and this will be a boon for video card makers.

A lot of laptops are too small to fit a discrete video card. If you mean video card makers in the sense of integrated video chipset makers, then Intel has been giving NVIDIA the finger, and AMD won't have a netbook chipset until next year.

Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

VGA had a looooooooooong run for being 640x480 4-bit displaying. Can we get to the XGA standard already?

And just to further that

[Sycraft-fu]

LCDs can last a damn long time. We've got some at work going on 9 years now, still working fine, still good image quality. I get a little tired of the "All old stuff was better and lasted longer, new stuff sucks." No. Wrong. This is just more looking at the past with rose coloured glasses.

For one, you only see examples today of the stuff that lasted, not the stuff that broke. The stuff that broke was thrown away. So sure, if you find a CRT in service now, it lasted a long time. However that doesn't mean that there aren't a thousand more in a land fill that broke.

Also, for brand new stuff you cannot very well demand to know its lifetime and failure rate as it is new, it hasn't been tested. I can't tell you if a specific device will last 20 years until 20 years have gone by.

In the case of monitors, LCDs are actually far more reliable in the long run. As you note, much of what can go wrong is cheap to fix, and fixable by a consumer. Caps aside (which are more rare to break these days) the main thing to go is the backlight. It will usually go out somewhere in the 8-12 year range, though it could be longer for less used devices. Good news is that isn't expensive to replace. Get a new one and things work again.

What's more, other than lower brightness due to the backlight fading, LCDs don't lose image quality with time. Replace a backlight in a 10 year old LCD and it looks as good as it ever did. Not as good as current LCDs, the tech has progressed, but the image will still be stable, with perfect focus and geometry. CRTs start to suck as they get old. They fade too, but they also lose focus, geometry control, image stability and so on. They can be pretty poor looking after a decade.

Look past personal examples to the general trend and you find LCDs are nice and reliable. Some break, but then so did some CRTs. The tech overall is very reliable, and much easier to repair minor flaws.

Re:And just to further that

[Rudeboy777]

Those LCDs that have been running for 9 years probably cost over $1000. Look how the Wal-mart mentality has driven down the price of LCDs today. I can get a 19" LCD for UNDER $100!!! but, importantly, with only a 1-year warranty. There is no way the components could be a comparable quality in the throwaway units on the shelf today.

Re:And just to further that

[willy_me]

What's more, other than lower brightness due to the backlight fading, LCDs don't lose image quality with time.

Quick question, is the fading because of the backlight or the ballast?

Re:And just to further that

[toddestan]

My experience is that LCDs are basically throw-away devices that aren't made to be repaired. The early ones are better, but the cheap ones that have cropped up since about 2004-2005 usually feature a snap-together case that is not meant to be taken apart. You can pry them apart, but expect mar the case in the process and snap some of the fasteners. None of the recent monitors have a backlight you can get to once it burns out. You would have to disassemble the actual panel, pulling apart the layers to get to the bulb, and it would never go back together quite right. Granted the LED ones may be different as I haven't taken one of those apart yet, but I doubt it.

I have fixed quite a few with bad capacitors, but that's about all you can do with them.

Re:And just to further that

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not true at all; the $150 MAG widescreen monitors I bought from Best Buy for my parents and myself looks just as good now as they did four years ago when I bought them.

Re:And just to further that

[sjames]

There IS a way, but in practice it won't happen.

Display Port? No thank you.

[Clomer]

I work as a student employee at my university. Over the last summer, we replaced about 500 computers across campus (most of our student lab machines). The new machines only have Display Port as their graphics interface, and we have had lots of problems with it. Lots of various software glitches, and even some significant hardware issues as well.

One issue is that the physical connector is not very sturdy. One good whap (which is not uncommon in an academic environment) and the connector gets destroyed, sometimes taking the graphics card with it. We've had to replace several graphics cards because of this. This was not a problem with our previous batch of machines, which used *gasp* VGA. There are other issues as well, such that there was actually some serious discussion at upper levels of management about the possibility of returning the whole lot of computers (remember, about 500) and demanding the replacement use either VGA or DVI. In the end, they decided that this would be more trouble than it was worth, and that we'd just deal with Display Port issues as they arise. Which, they continue to do.

As for myself, I have no intention of ever using Display Port as my primary display interface on my personal machines unless there is literally no other option. In my opinion, DVI is superior in every respect that matters, and even VGA is preferable.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately having had experience with lots of displays leaves me with a bad feeling for display port to VGA adapters. One of the good points for the VGA analog video is that it was not totally dependent on the DCD display codes that monitors put out to tell the PC video cards what resolution they support. Over the years I have had to manually change the setting for the monitor resolution in the Video Card drivers in order to get the best looking video on the screen. Often Plasma displays and some projectors do not correctly tell the PC graphics card their native resolutions. Display port like DVI is a digital interface and is totally dependent on the monitor display codes to indentify the correct monitor resolution and refresh rate. The only display output resolution supported by these digital ports are the resolutions that the monitors feed back to the PC video card. This will lead to lower quality displays on analog VGA monitors. I have had problems already hooking a Display port video card up to a VGA KVM. The KVM did not correctly feed throught the DCD codes which the monitor attached to it was outputting to the display port adapter. The Display port to VGA adapter was confused so we ended up with a 640x480 display on a 1280x1024 LCD monitor. The solution was to find a video card with a VGA output and replace the Display Port Card.

SIMPLY

[AlleyTrotte]

Digital Rights Management john

2 Month old Laptop - No DisplayPort

[Anonymous Coward]

I purchased a fairly high powered laptop a few months ago. It has VGA and HDMI video-out connectors. No DisplayPort. BTW, the Apple version of this laptop is priced $900 more - around $1800.

Dell 1558 (15" Studio line)
  - Core i5
  - 6GB RAM
  - 500GB 7200rpm SATA HDD
  - USB, eSATA ports
  - 1080p display (1920x1080)
  - ATI Radeon Mobility discrete graphics
  - WiFi-N
  - 100/1000 Ethernet port
  - SDHC card reader
  - DVD +/- RW (damn slot loader)

All for $849 shipped/total. It also includes next business-day at home support for 1 yr. The Apple guys always compare Apple's prices with the worse pricing on other online sales. If you can wait a few weeks, a coupon code for HP or Dell will often save you $300+ on the model you want. Sure, there's no AppleCARE, but next day onsite service works for me.

No DisplayPort, which is good since none of my monitors have that. Heck, my monitors don't have HDMI (except a TV) either. I use VGA and PS2 connectors with the KVM switch, but actually have a USB-PS2 connector for each of the PCs to make connecting mice/keyboards easier on the computer-side. The 2nd monitor for the main desktop does use a DVI connector.

Last year, I built a new desktop (new MB + CPU + RAM). Spent $40 on a new nVidia 220 1GB graphics card. No DisplayPort on it.

I'll update to DisplayPort when:
- The main monitor breaks AND
  -- DisplayPort monitors do not cost any more $$$
  -- All the graphics cards in my current systems support it (zero do today)
  -- KVM breaks ... it is already 10+ yrs old

Basically, displayport may be a great idea, but until everything thing I own/use has it, I won't be changing. I haven't switched to DVI because some of the video cards I still use don't support it AND the KVM doesn't either.

BTW, I don't have a Blue-Ray player either and don't plan to ever get one until the DRM is removed or trivial to crack.

Get off my lawn.

Re:2 Month old Laptop - No DisplayPort

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, the Apple version of this laptop is priced $900 more - around $1800.

Grab a clue, Apple doesn't make "a version" of this laptop, anymore than BMW makes a version of the Kia Forte. What you mean is Apple's 15" high end laptop costs $900 more, but you liked the price/performance/feature set of your Dell better. Congrats, you aren't special. You're the guy who brags that his 20 year old Ford Taurus is just as good as his neighbors new Lexus. Your entitled to your opinion, the free market is there so those with other opinions can be happy too.

The Apple guys always compare Apple's prices with the worse pricing on other online sales.

The Apple guys usually compare "equivalent" laptops, which are usually price competitive at the time of release, but tend to drift away as the model ages and components price drops, because Apple has chosen to present its customers a simplified model & pricing lineup versus the dozens of models Dell offers. You prefer the Dell model, great. What makes you a git is you seem to feel it makes you superior somehow, that your opinion of the relative value is better than others.

Last year, I built a new desktop (new MB + CPU + RAM). Spent $40 on a new nVidia 220 1GB graphics card. No DisplayPort on it.

Yay, I know preteens with similar tech skills! I'm so proud, you've totally earned you Slashdot smugness! Congrats!

And I'm surprised your bargain basement PC rebuild lacks the latest technology, geeks like you are clearly driving the market. Those n00bs at Intel should totally have checked with you before developing their technology plans, then we'd still have great low cost tech like cassette software loading and RF out to hook our PC's to our living room console TV's

Basically, displayport may be a great idea, but until everything thing I own/use has it, I won't be changing.

So, until your old technology spontaneously sprouts new technology, you won't be embracing it. Welcome to the trailing edge!

BTW, I don't have a Blue-Ray player either and don't plan to ever get one until the DRM is removed or trivial to crack.

Really, I'm surprised you've advanced past VHS recordings off the air, Mr Cutting Edge geek.

I will explain teh joke!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I just got through building the recommended case out of plywood for my Apple motherboard.

The first Apple product was just a motherboard with no case. Most buyers build housings out of wood or some such material.

The second Apple product had groundbreaking, super-sleek design. (No painted sheet metal...beige plastic, baby!)

Re:I will explain teh joke!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Providing the idiot's point of view.

Re:I will explain teh joke!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple doesn't use painted sheet metal, they use anodized aluminium.

If they carry the cable, Walmart usually is cheap

[JSBiff]

Walmart doesn't have the most comprehensive collection of cables, but the cables they do carry are almost always pretty reasonably priced (might be a lower quality, but for the most part, cables I've bought from them have done the job I needed them to do; ymmv).

I won't switch away from VGA...

[Anonymous Coward]

VGA has become the least-common-denominator for PC-to-monitor connections. This is similar to how composite (red/white/yellow) video connectors are the least-common-denominator for AV equipment. The difference is, VGA connections look just fine. We're not talking about having terrible ghosting, fuzzy pictures, or pathetic color reproduction/resolutions here. I was glad to see RFU connections on televisions finally be abandoned because they looked like garbage from day one with all the fuzz and other problems.

I've got a KVM switch that uses VGA and I have no reason to replace it. I also don't want to adopt a display standard that would allow the capitalist pigs to artificially prevent my computer from talking to my monitor in a higher resolution unless I pay some goons for a special "entertainment industry malware compliant" monitor. You can keep your digital connections to monitors, thank you. I don't trust them.

Re:I won't switch away from VGA...

[Anonymous Coward]

don't forget your socialist brethren: they're the ones that support hollywood, at least in the states.

New KVM then. :(

[antdude]

Aww, that means I have to buy a new expensive KVM with DVI or something.

PS/2 connectors always work

[MpVpRb]

PS/2 connectors have another benefit...they always work.

Sometimes, when there is a USB driver problem, USB drivers don't load correctly, no keyboard or mouse.

I have rescued unresponsive systems several times with a PS/2 keyboard and mouse.

No, they are not hot-pluggable.

[DarthStrydre]

No, they are not. The software can not make up for hardware limitations and the PS/2 spec. While the kernel does detect the keyboard and it "just works", there is no assurance that the hot-plug will not physically damage the motherboard.

Specifically, per the PS/2 spec, there is support for the current transients that can occur during hor plugging, or for the handling of potential static discharged. The first can blow a microfuse on the motherboard, the second can fry the keyboard interface chip or southbridge if it is integrated. Granted, most motherboards these days are more robust, but it is not a requirement. Try it on an actual (ancient!) IBM PS/2 or similar old computer enough times, and you might find you need a motherboard replaced (or surgery on the existing one).

Using your logic, regular PCI cards (not server level PCI-X or PCI-E) and IDE disk drives are also hot pluggable, in that, hey, if you do it quickly (and happen to have the card edge/connector angled just right so the ground lines connect first, etc) it sometimes works!

Ia this the idea?

[stonewallred]

If they phase out VGA, then won't that (in their minds) "stop" piracy?

Wow, if only I'd known...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's amazing to me to learn this fact now, years after I've migrated to all USB keyboards.

If I had known, I would have been really inconvenienced by not hot plugging my old PS/2 keyboards on Linux as often as I did, on every machine I ever owned. As far as I recall, the keyboard reinitialized and the most I ever had to do was swap virtual consoles to get Linux to fully resync with stateful stuff like numlock or capslock.

I guess I should be glad my computers from 1992-2002 didn't know they were supposed to explode on contact with a PS/2 connector either.

Splitters/Extenders work better on VGA

[Marrow]

Not everything is better digital. Analog is a good format for long cable runs like running a display via CAT-5. I don't like the change to display port. It requires you waste money if you want to change formats from DVI to VGA because the DP->DVI connectors will convert to VGA. So you need a DVI converter AND a VGA converter. At 25 bucks a pop.

DVI and DisplayPort are both more expensive in most situations. The monitors (as mentioned above) do not come with DVI cables.

All in All, I see this as a Loss for the consumer.

The big advantage for DisplayPort is to drive screens that dont even exist yet. Resolutions that DVI cannot handle. But what needs those 1080p+ resolutions yet? Desktop monitors do not. Bigscreens do not. What then is the point?

Re:Splitters/Extenders work better on VGA

[Anonymous Coward]

I think analog should stay, but you're probably wrong about CAT-5. the whole point about digital signals is they are less sensitive to noise, and can use long cables. you must be comparing highres digital with lowres VGA.

Re:Splitters/Extenders work better on VGA

[Craig Davison]

This monitor needs it: Dell 3007WFP, 2560x1600.

Re:Splitters/Extenders work better on VGA

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10428&cs_id=1042801&p_id=5135&seq=1&format=2

DP->HD15 converter under $20, less when ordered in bulk.

Re:Splitters/Extenders work better on VGA

[willy_me]

Ok, here is a price check from Monoprice.

3' cables: VGA: $2.47 - DVI: $3.64 - DispP: $4.05

Those are obviously economy cables - but they still work fine. DisplayPort is the most expensive, by an entire $1.58. As DisplayPort becomes more popular the price will come down. In addition, because DisplayPort uses fewer* conductors then DVI, the cost of longer cables should be less then DVI. VGA has even fewer conductors but, because of the analog signals, has to use cables with better shielding.

The big advantage for DisplayPort is to drive screens that dont even exist yet. Resolutions that DVI cannot handle. But what needs those 1080p+ resolutions yet?

Well, my iMac has a 2560x1440 display. I think you'll find that there are plenty of screens available that are 1080p+. But regardless, that is not the real advantage for DisplayPort. The real advantage is that it allows the internal components of a laptop to be standardized. Previously, all laptops had to have proprietary display connectors to connect to the specific LCD used in that laptop. DisplayPort allows things to be standardized thereby greatly reducing costs. And once a laptop supports DisplayPort internally, it is relatively easy to route it to an external connector. Supporting VGA, DVI, and HDMI simply add to the cost and complexity of the laptop. Complexity is not a big deal with laptops of today but as these devices get smaller those extra chips will have an impact.

Another promise of DisplayPort is that one cable can be used to fully connect your monitor to your computer. I say fully connect because it also allows for audio, USB, and other monitor features such as touch-screens. Currently, no other standard has this sort of simplicity and support.

DisplayPort is here today and is not going away. It is here because it reduces cost. The other standards are only added to new computers for backwards compatibility - and Apple doesn't even bother with that. Most adapters sell for under $8 (with VGA being the exception.)

* Depends on what parts of the standard are supported - a stripped down DVI could use less.

Re:Splitters/Extenders work better on VGA

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont think I have ever bought a new montior that HASNT included a DVI cable if the monitor supported it.

Re:Splitters/Extenders work better on VGA

[josath]

You can't convert DisplayPort to VGA cheaply. It needs a complex controller in it...DisplayPort is all digital, VGA is analog. The reason you can convert DVI to VGA so cheaply, is that most DVI-out ports, carry both digital and analog signals. (I believe some mac laptop displayport outputs also carry analog signals, but those are in the minority)

Re:YOU CAN'T SPELL VAGINA WITHOUT VGA !!

[Anonymous Coward]

what's a vagina?

VGA gone

[downmagic]

I have always used VGA until recently when I moved over to display port. It seemed to me that this standard took a long time to actually be abolished. well DVI and display ports will hopefully last as long. I don't want to buy another video card for awhile.

The limitations of USB keyboards for chording

[Tetsujin]

This has nothing to do with USB vs PS/2.
This has to do with masking.

http://www.dribin.org/dave/keyboard/one_html/

The bottom line is that keyboards don't have a dedicated circuit for each key - they use a bunch of small grids and detect key presses at the ends of rows/columns in the grid.

Actually, USB is a part of this, too.

Most USB keyboards and other HID devices are low-speed devices, in part because this makes for thinner (and cheaper!) cabling.
Each packet at low speed may contain no more than 8 bytes of payload.
There are different ways you can implement a USB keyboard within the HID protocol, the most common is for each packet to send the scancodes of all keys that are pressed down at any one time.
HID supports some nice bit-packing options in the report formats, but since keyboards commonly have over 100 keys, that means at best you could use no less than 7 bits per scancode.

In other words, low-speed USB keyboards are limited by the protocol to sending no more than 8-9 scancodes to the host at any one time. "Full-speed" (i.e. top speed of USB 1.1) keyboards would be able to get around this limitation.

Re:The limitations of USB keyboards for chording

[snookums]

Could not a packing scheme be devised where the more commonly pressed keys use less bits, and the less commonly pressed use more? Some kind of Huffman coding, or a scheme like UTF-8 where a high-order bit set means a double-length code.

Re:The limitations of USB keyboards for chording

[Tetsujin]

Could not a packing scheme be devised where the more commonly pressed keys use less bits, and the less commonly pressed use more? Some kind of Huffman coding, or a scheme like UTF-8 where a high-order bit set means a double-length code.

Probably, but this packing scheme wouldn't be part of the current HID descriptor standard, meaning that your keyboard would need to have special drivers in order to work. A variable-length encoding would also have the disadvantage of turning what is presently an apparently (to the user) meaningless and arbitrary limitation into an inconsistent, meaningless, and arbitrary limitation...

(Incidentally - I think in my previous post I got the common limitations of USB keyboards slightly wrong: I have read online that it's common for the modifier keys to be represented more compactly... References to "6+4" keys - I guess 6 byte-size scancodes and up to 4 modifier keys at a time... It's been a while since I've done USB development.)

A better solution, I think, is just to build a "full speed" keyboard. The packet size limit is motivated by the fact that USB has to give time slices to all the different devices on the bus. Higher speeds get a higher limit on packet payload sizes - 1023 bytes is the limit for full speed, IIRC. You would only need 13 bytes to return a bitset containing the state of every key on a 104 keyboard... And that's something you can express in a standard HID descriptor, too.

Re:The limitations of USB keyboards for chording

[sexconker]

At which point, said keypresses are processed by a driver. You can easily make the driver count keypresses that appear in one poll and disappear in the next as appearing in both.

Indeed, this is exactly what many anti-masking keyboards do (as well as throwing in hardware to be able to physically detect the keypresses). Often with a little bit of location-based guessery as to the probability of something being held down. As well as "lol increasing the polling rate" hacks.

I don't know of any that use USB 2.0 in order to shove more shit down the pipe in a single poll, but that's also a workable option.

See this comment http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1903236&cid=34500434 for a case in point.

The driver can do whatever it wants. The (default) polling frequency is slow for a computer, but it's more than fast enough for human input. You can get all the keypresses you want through the USB 1.0/1.1 pipe, just not in the same poll.

You CANNOT get all the keypresses you want, at a physical level, until someone makes a keyboard with a dedicated circuit for each key (be it logically-distinct circuits through diode trickery as in the link I provided, or actual traces). Even the anti-masking/ghosting keyboards don't have individual circuits for each key - they simply mash up the grids, so A, F7, End, and NUM_DIVIDE are on one grid. Their logic being, who's gonna press all those at once?

Re:The limitations of USB keyboards for chording

[Tetsujin]

I don't know of any that use USB 2.0 in order to shove more shit down the pipe in a single poll, but that's also a workable option.

You don't even need USB 2.0. USB 1.0 "Full Speed" is enough to deliver the full state of the keyboard in a single packet.

llaagg

[tepples]

If I were planning to use a keyboard with a home theater PC I might consider a wireless one instead

I've been told that most wireless keyboards and mice have noticeable lag between when you do something and when it registers at the PC. Has this improved lately?

Re:llaagg

[Tetsujin]

If I were planning to use a keyboard with a home theater PC I might consider a wireless one instead

I've been told that most wireless keyboards and mice have noticeable lag between when you do something and when it registers at the PC. Has this improved lately?

Couldn't tell ya. (Though I've never had any trouble with Bluetooth-based game controllers, for instance...) But for a home theater PC I think I'd rather deal with that than run a cord across the room.

Re:YOU CAN'T SPELL VAGINA WITHOUT VGA !!

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

YOU CAN'T SPELL VAGINA WITHOUT VGA !!

C-U-N-T.

(If this gets modded as 'Informative' I'm putting it on my resume.)

No, not at all

[Sycraft-fu]

I'm actually typing on one right now (fixing a lab system). It is a Gateway branded 19" LCD model FPD1810 manufactured in 2001. We've got a lab of 50 of them, all still running. Of those 50, one is having some trouble. The rest are displaying pristine images.

Also are you claiming that low end, cheap, CRTs, built with low end components would last longer than cheap LCDs? Based on what evidence?

The question is NOT if quality components last longer than cheap ones, it is if CRTs last longer than LCDs and the answer is they don't.

Finally, if you want a high end LCD, get one. You aren't forced in to low end hardware. You can get low end hardware if you like, but they go up from there. Dell sells nice IPS LCDs for a reasonable price. HP would be another option. 3 year default warranty, upgradable to 5. Further up from them is NEC, same basic panels, higher grade ones used, and better backing electronics and features. 4 year warranty by default, upgradable (how much varies you call NEC about it, can be as much as 8 years). Higher still than that is Eizo and Lacie (rebranded Eizo). You are in the $3500+ range now, but it is the highest grade stuff.

Backlight normally

[Sycraft-fu]

Florescent tubes have phosphors inside them to glow. Like all phosphors, they fade over time. If the ballast has problems it is usually either a complete failure, no light at all, or flickering/buzzing/etc. Also the CCFLs that monitors use have a little different power setup than regular tubes you find in most fixtures.

However if you are replacing bulbs in an old LCD, replacing the inverter as well is a good idea. A little more expensive, but not too bad.

Re:Backlight normally

[willy_me]

Thanks, sounds like the tube. Have an original MacBook Pro with a very dim screen. Found the tubes for ~$10 but the inverter will cost a small fortune. Just replaced the battery so I'll have to give it a try..

That's what DVI-I is for

[tepples]

Now if you're cheap that's all you'll put on it, as DVI, etc is going to add more costs.

But VGA and DVI can share a connector on a PC monitor. Put a DVI-I connector on a video card or monitor, preferring DVI-D and falling back to DVI-A if no DVI-D connection can be made. Now on the same connector, you can support VGA (with a VGA to DVI-A cable), DVI-D (with a DVI-D cable), and even HDMI (with an HDMI to DVI-D cable) if your monitor has a headphone jack.

HDMI (or maybe DisplayPort) will be the lowest common denominator, and you'll have to pay a premium to buy a monitor that still accepts VGA.

How long will it be until one has to pay a premium for a TV monitor that still supports composite video? Probably decades, as the All Channels Act still requires U.S. TVs to receive analog TV signals at least until the low-power stations switch over. Even after that, a lot of recently made camcorders, video game consoles, and the like still output analog video, so TVs will have to accept composite and component video.

Re:Display Port? No thank you.

[twitchingbug]

Two points

1) DisplayPort is capable of carrying audio, which makes it a (possible) one cable solution
2) I get that the connectors break on campus, because the backs of computers can be open walkways, etc... but for a standard desktop at home? I doubt you're going to get enough traffic behind your desk to cause anything to hit it.

Re:YOU CAN'T SPELL VAGINA WITHOUT VGA !!

[rrohbeck]

OK, show the excerpt from your resume.

Just the port, or the actual signal?

[stands2reason]

I glossed over TFA, and it only looks like they are talking about the ports themselves. Most DVI output I've seen is DVI-I, which includes the analogue D-SUB signal anyways, so D-SUB over a VGA connector is still only $1 away if you really need it.

analogue DVI on monitor

[DrYak]

Afaict if the monitor supports it you can use them at the monitor end as well.

I confirm : that's the case of my recent Nec monitors. It only has DVI connectors. But one of them has the analogue pins, so you can connect it to a VGA laptop using the wiring adapter.