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Journal Article On Precognition Sparks Outrage

thomst writes "The New York Times has an article (cookies and free subscription required) about the protests generated by The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology's decision to accept for publication later this year an article (PDF format) on precognition (the Times erroneously calls it ESP). Complaints center around the peer reviewers, none of whom is an expert in statistical analysis."

319 comments

  1. Prediction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I predicted this would happen.

    1. Re:Prediction by razvan784 · · Score: 1

      I just knew I'd sense a disturbance in the Force as soon as you predict this.

    2. Re:Prediction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I knew you would.

    3. Re:Prediction by garryknight · · Score: 1

      Not only did we all see that comment coming, we all knew it would be the first comment posted.

      --
      Garry Knight
    4. Re:Prediction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correction, you had a precognizant notion of it to happen.

    5. Re:Prediction by vegiVamp · · Score: 1

      Well, my first thought was "they should've seen that coming".

      --
      What a depressingly stupid machine.
    6. Re:Prediction by PDX · · Score: 1

      I just heard a million voices scream out all at once!

    7. Re:Prediction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hehe. Must have been doing some Remote Viewing eh..

    8. Re:Prediction by davester666 · · Score: 1

      And they screamed out "Look at the standard deviation!"

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    9. Re:Prediction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I predicted this would happen.

      I knew you were going to say that!

    10. Re:Prediction by ae1294 · · Score: 1

      And they screamed out "Look at the standard deviation!"

      Why? +/- 100% ... Looks fine to me...

    11. Re:Prediction by CptNerd · · Score: 1

      And they screamed out "Look at the standard deviation!"

      Aw, that's just mean...

      --
      By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes
  2. oblig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The author of the article should have seen this coming really ..

    1. Re:oblig by krou · · Score: 2

      The reason they published this is because they wanted to study the effect of negative reinforcement on ESP ability, but as you can see, that's just pissing people off.

      --
      'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
  3. Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Informative

    on precognition (the Times erroneously calls it ESP).

    Why is that erroneous? Precognition and premonition are two facets of Extrasensory Perception. From its wikipedia article:

    Extrasensory perception (ESP) involves reception of information not gained through the recognized physical senses but sensed with the mind. The term was coined by Sir Richard Burton,[citation needed] and adopted by Duke University psychologist J. B. Rhine to denote psychic abilities such as telepathy and clairvoyance, and their trans-temporal operation as precognition or retrocognition.

    So if you were dealing with anything of the above or anything external to our normal senses, I think that qualifies as ESP and calling it ESP. Sure that acronym has a lot of baggage but from the study itself:

    ... this is an experiment that tests for ESP (Extrasensory Perception).

    That's what the tests subjects were told and I don't think the article is erroneous.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Smallpond · · Score: 0

      It's ESP if the cause is believed to be a currently unknown sense or special power. If they are doing a scientific study on whether people can perceive the future with no conclusions about the cause, then it's not really about ESP.

    2. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by MoonBuggy · · Score: 1

      Well we don't know any current mechanism by which people can perceive the future (assuming that everyday extrapolation is not included, I guess - there's no mystery about the fact that I can tell a flying ball will soon hit the ground), so wouldn't that mean that if evidence is found for an ability to sense the future, that implies ESP under your definition?

    3. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Dexter+Herbivore · · Score: 1

      I *knew* this would happen.

    4. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      Why do you remember the past and not the future? "Hasn't happened yet" is a perception, not a physical characteristic of the world. The world just exists in 4 dimensions; it doesn't change. Living things perceive a direction of time.

    5. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by zero.kalvin · · Score: 2

      I don't understand this. If the researchers did a proper experiment, respected the rules, followed proper procedures, and did a proper analysis of the data they collected, in a scientific way. Why is it a problem to publish ? So now we should bar publication that don't agree with our general conception ? If it was done considering the specific guidelines set by the scientific community of how to do things, screw them. Science is not a democratic process, nor it should be politically correct. Science is science.

    6. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      The world just exists in 4 dimensions; it doesn't change.

      What's the evidence for this?

      --
    7. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by MoonBuggy · · Score: 1

      Firstly, that bears little relation to what I said. Even taking your post at face value, the fact is that we "living things" still do perceive the past but not the future with the senses currently known by science - if it is discovered that we can also perceive the future, it will be above and beyond our current sensory experience, hence ESP. But anyway, we're really just arguing semantics here.

      The world just exists in 4 dimensions; it doesn't change.

      Secondly, entropy begs to differ.

    8. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by prionic6 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'd say it is more a case of earth having 4 corners in some kind of a simultaneous 4-day... In only 24 hours of rotation, there are 4 corner days, cubes for a quad earth. No 1 Day God.

    9. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      time cube.

      nuff said.

      (head asplodes)

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    10. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by AlecC · · Score: 5, Informative

      From the summary, the implication is that the data analysis was not proper - or at least, not shown to be proper. Since the claimed effect is a fairly small artifact only detectable by sophistcated statistics, it seems reasonable that the reviewers should include those who have a deep understanding of such statistics - which, it is claimed, they did not.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    11. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by gardyloo · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you should learn a bit about causality and entropy, before (whi you wander in and spout gobbeldygook.

    12. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by gweihir · · Score: 2

      The world just exists in 4 dimensions; it doesn't change.

      What's the evidence for this?

      None at all. It is a neat model, and physics seems to be completely explained by it ("seems", as there are still fundamental gaps in the current models), but it does not take into account human beings. It is quite possible that directionality of time and impossibility to predict the future is actually something brought into this universe by human beings or life itself.

      The 4-dimensional model does only cover dead matter and it is just a model, not reality.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    13. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Science is not a democratic process, .... Science is science.

      That peer review is the gold standard for publication implies that science *IS* a democratic process at some level. It's just that only the other scientists get the chance to vote.

    14. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by ledow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They failed that one of your hurdles - they didn't do a proper analysis on their data. Basically, their data conclusively shows that the chances of pre-cog existed COMPARED TO it not existing is extremely minimal (actually quite strongly in favour of it not existing). But they specifically chose only certain analyses to conclude that it *did* exist.

      There are many rebuttals at the moment, most linked to in these comments, that you can read but basically - to remove all statistical jargon - they didn't bother to take account of how probable their data was by pure chance. Their "error margin" is actually vastly larger than their data could even escape, so they can't really make any firm conclusions and certainly NOT in the direction they did. Statistics is a dangerous field, and whoever wrote and reviewed that paper didn't have a DEEP grasp of it, just a passing one.

      If you calculate the *chance* that their paper is correct versus their paper being absolute nonsense, not even taking into account anything to do with their methods or that their data might be biased, their data can ONLY mathematically support a vague conclusion that their paper is nonsense. To do the test properly and get a statistically significant result (not even a *conclusive* result, just one that people will go "Oh, that's odd") they would have to do 20 times as many experiments (and then prove that they were fair, unbiased etc.).

      It's like rolling three sixes on a die and concluding that the particular die you rolled can only possibly roll a six. It's nearly as bas as claiming that so can every other die on the planet.

    15. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by jason.sweet · · Score: 5, Insightful
      FTA:

      In one sense, it is a historically familiar pattern. For more than a century, researchers have conducted hundreds of tests to detect ESP, telekinesis and other such things, and when such studies have surfaced, skeptics have been quick to shoot holes in them.

      I always thought the hole-shooting was an essential step in the scientific process. If you can't patch up the holes, you aren't really doing "science."

      In science, you tell a story. Then everyone says, "no, that's wrong because..." Then you say, "I'm afraid I'm right, because..." It is an imperfect process because people have biases that are hard to overcome. But, if the empirical evidence is strong enough, you will overcome these imperfections. In the end, you build a consensus by presenting enough evidence that no one can argue with. I'm not sure what is more democratic than that.

    16. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by oscarwumpus · · Score: 1

      "It's just that only the other scientists get the chance to vote." Wrong wrong wrong. Science is not a democracy: it is a meritocracy. Everyone doesn't get a 'vote': only those people who know what they are talking about in regards to the science get to play. Everyone else gets to point and laugh. Physicists don't usually get to tell biologists how their results should appear, and vice versa. BUT, if it's a problem with the maths, that crosses fields and those better at the numbery-addery bits can join the fray..

    17. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      Entropy is the observation that the universe becomes more disordered with time, establishing a measurable direction for time's arrow. Ultimately the heat death of the universe leaves all matter in the same state at the same temperature, completely disordered. Memory is the reverse - disordered in the past, more state in the future, with ultimately a complete memory of the entire history of the universe available to some future super-being. If entropy were the cause of our perception of moving through time, then what explains memory?

    18. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by zero.kalvin · · Score: 1

      Peer review is not an indication of democracy. It's an indication that your work was found to be fault free by people of similar qualification. Peer reviewers don't vote, they don't implicated personal agenda on how they review science. All they do is check for inconsistencies, and flaws. (I am talking in the broader sense)

    19. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't understand this. If the researchers did a proper experiment, respected the rules, followed proper procedures, and did a proper analysis of the data they collected, in a scientific way. Why is it a problem to publish ?

      Shouldn't be any. However, this case isn't relevant to your question, since they didn't do a proper analysis. (Or at least that's what the rebuttals say; I haven't read the paper.)

      One of the most glaring problems is that they (reportedly) went fishing for statistical significance in their results, without making the correction that is required for rigor when you do that. When you find significance at the traditonal 95% confidence level, there's a 5% chance that you're finding meaning in noise. If you test for 20 different effects and then go fishing to see whether *any* of them show significance at the 95% confidence level, you have 1 - .95^20 = 64% chance of finding "significance" in noise.

      There are simple ways to fix that problem, e.g. the Tukey HSD "honestly statistically different" test. Apparently the authors were either ignorant or dishonest, and the reviewers were either ignorant, dishonest, are careless.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    20. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      Wait, you've lost me here... what about human beings can't be explained with classical physics?

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    21. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is that erroneous? Precognition and premonition are two facets of Extrasensory Perception. From its wikipedia article [wikipedia.org]:

      Will you please stop quoting from a site which is edited by the general population? If you'd bothered to look at the Discussion for that article you'd see the page is pretty worthless as a good source right now.

    22. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      Because its really not, as the article clearly shows. Anything that purports to be X & uses lies, half truths, and slung statistics to present its case clearly is not X.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    23. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      What would you call it if someone had extra perception through normal senses, say, the eyes of an eagle or the ears of a dog? Not extra senses, but extra perception?

      Seems that in some cases, the results may be the same.

    24. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Schadrach · · Score: 1

      Here's an interesting puzzle for you then: Define the mark at which it stops being sufficiently advanced extrapolation and starts being "special" precognition. I mean I know all kinds of interesting things get processed as background tasks in my head, often ones I'm not aware of until I'm walking along and get hit with an "AHA!" moment where I suddenly have an algorithm or a complicated analysis of song lyrics or something of that nature appear full-formed in my conscious mind. I imagine if I could get it set to "extrapolate the future" I'd eventually present a result that resembled precognition (an accurate description of a future event appearing fully formed in my mind with no clear path how I got there from here).

    25. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could not entropy simply monotonically increase along one of those 4 dimensions?

      Personally, the model is self-consistent, and fits classical physics well (it was a popular theory that the course of all events is already determined, this theory wasn't debunked, so much as made 'useless' by the uncertainty principle which states that we can't measure enough about the state of the universe to infer everything that will ever occur).

      Remember, all models are wrong, but some are useful.

    26. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      " It is quite possible that directionality of time and impossibility to predict the future is actually something brought into this universe by human beings or life itself."

      No, it's not. The direction of time is a property of this macro universe. It's pretty well shown. If it wasn't then there would be no Consistency in things we didn't influences, but there is.

      And the model reflects reality pretty damn well.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    27. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Its' not. The statistics are incorrect. That;s the problem. Not that someone did a study on precognition, but that is a really bad study.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    28. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by darkstar949 · · Score: 1

      Why is that erroneous? Precognition and premonition are two facets of Extrasensory Perception.

      True, but precognition is just one type of ESP thus proving (or disproving) one type of ESP does not disprove all types of ESP as they some of them are vastly different phenomenons from each other (i.e. being able to read someones mind is not the same as being able to accurately predict the future). Thus, saying that precognition is ESP is a bit of a misnomer and can lead to situations where people assume that if you disprove A then B and C were also disproved since A, B, and C are all grouped together.

    29. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by wickerprints · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Precognition might be characterized as a form of extrasensory perception, but not all manifestations of the latter could be classified as the former.

      For example, precognition refers to being able to sense something that has not yet happened, but ESP might be used to describe the ability to sense a past event not experienced by the individual sensing it, such as "reading" someone's memories.

    30. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry... but a simple T-test is now "sophisticated statistics"? That's ridiculous.

    31. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by geekoid · · Score: 2

      I would say that Falsification("hole shooting") is critical to the scientific process.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    32. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is quite possible that directionality of time and impossibility to predict the future is actually something brought into this universe by human beings or life itself.

      It is possible, but then you have to accept that reality is nothing but a construct in our mind (whatever that is).

      I however do believe that there is a reality as such, and I guess most do.

      The beauty of our physics and mathematics is that they got very far in abstracting the direction of time away. One rare instance where the direction of time cannot be abstracted away is the law of increasing entropy in thermodynamics.

      There may be a good underlying logical reason for that: the logic of positions (places), time and possibilities (possible worlds) is largely the same: another time or another turn of events can logically be modeled as if it were another position or place, which logicians call a "locus".

      About the subject at hand: all of the people I know who claimed to be able to foresee the future ended up in mental hospital. My experience may be anecdoctical, but there unfortunately are far too many of those.

      - Haxamanish, too lazy to log in.

    33. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Entropy isn't just a general observation as you cast it -- it's a very specific measure of the degree of disorder of a system. Or, equally, a measure of the lack of knowledge about the internal state of a system. The link between information / memory and entropy is interesting, but I can't really summarize all of Shannon's work accurately in a short space.

    34. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by AlecC · · Score: 1

      You will have to explain what a "T-test" is. The paper shows apparent precognition, and doesn't look to me like a "simple" test.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    35. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by jythie · · Score: 1

      I think the issue that is being brought up was that the paper did not meet the necessary criteria, but the 4 reviewers that accepted the paper lacked the necessary background to determine this. So in a way it is commenting on a failure in the initial review process.

    36. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by peragrin · · Score: 1

      What four dimensions? I personally only deal with 2 that I am aware of. Space and Time. Gravity might be one but that might also just be a side effect of Space too.

      The difference between 1D,2D and 3D space are real however the space we live in is all 3D so why count it twice more than necessary?

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    37. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      Look it up on wikipedia, it's kind of hard to explain what it is without explaining the underlying statistics. Basically it allows you to compare group means.

      It is a useful and important test to run, but is hardly sophisticated. It is literally one of the first things they teach you in an introductory statistics class in social sciences. The allegation is that a lot more analysis was required on the data than comparing group averages.

    38. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by thepotoo · · Score: 1

      T-test is short for Turing test, duh.

      In case you're serious, a T-test is a very simple statistical test used when you have two groups of subjects and want to know if there's a statistically significant difference between them. AC was incorrect to say that this article used just a simple T-test, though. It actually uses Stouffer’s Z method, which is a way of combining results from several studies (in this case a bunch of difference sub experiments) to support a single hypothesis. I have never worked with Stouffer’s Z method, so I can't really comment on it's strengths and weaknesses.

      The actual experimental design of the experiments was to take a well known psychology paradigm and run it backwards: training someone on a word list after they have already taken the test on it, for example.

      --
      Obligatory Soundbite Catchphrase
    39. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by BlueScreenO'Life · · Score: 1
      If one reads TFA (yeah, I know...)

      Peer review is usually an anonymous process, with authors and reviewers unknown to one another. But all four reviewers of this paper were social psychologists, and all would have known whose work they were checking and would have been responsive to the way it was reasoned.
      Perhaps more important, none were topflight statisticians.

    40. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by vegiVamp · · Score: 1

      Precognition is ESP, but ESP is not neccesarily precognition - they were being unnecesarily imprecise.

      --
      What a depressingly stupid machine.
    41. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by zero.kalvin · · Score: 1

      You gave the answer yourself, It's not democratic because the opinion of others is not important when weighting the evidence. The majority of people working in particle physics rejects the idea of Top condensate as an explanation for the mass generation in the standard model. However in the events of the LHC finding evidence (let's say above 5 sigma) that it is indeed the most plausible scenario, your so called consensus will come after the evidence. Same with evolution, you can agree with it all your want, you can disagree with it all you want, that still doesn't change the validity of the said theory. This so called consensus is just a way of acknowledging the proof. If all scientist on earth agreed the ether theory is correct that won't make it so, and if everyone said gravity doesn't exist, it won't make it so either.

    42. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Right, but there was also a problem where nobody else has been able to replicate the findings. And the difference itself in the hit rate didn't vary substantively from the margin for error. Meaning that the result was weak enough that it was easily just a random occurrence.

    43. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      I'd go for ignorance. The write up I saw was pretty dubious and at that point nobody had been able to replicate the findings. Additionally, the effect they were claiming was so weak that it would happen by random chance frequently, and I don't recall seeing any indication of the confidence interval or that jazz.

    44. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      If it's very specific, why doesn't measuring the entropy of a system tell you what time it is or vice versa (unless you have a very simple system)? It's observational because it is not derived from other principals. Thank you for not trying to explain information theory to me.

    45. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by noidentity · · Score: 1

      If you can sense it, isn't it by definition part of your perception? Sounds like the issue with alternative and mainstream medicine: the moment it's accepted, it's not altenrative anymore, and then loses its special status.

    46. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      It's wrong to call it 'ESP' because ESP is a null term. It means 'perceiving things beyond the senses', which is idiotic.

      If we can actually perceive the future, that's a sense. If we can see inside sealed boxes, that's a sense. If we can read minds, that's a sense. There are senses we don't know exist, but they are, in fact, senses. (If they exist, that is.) No one is perceiving 'beyond' their senses.

      Not only is ESP is a nonsensical term, it's a 'category' that doesn't really have anything to do with each other. It's basically 'any special powers that people have ever ascribed to humans' all lumped together. (Except 'magic', which gets lumped under 'supernatural', which makes no sense as a category either.)

      For example, there's nothing under the current laws of physics that prohibits mind reading. All you have to hypothesis is that minds emit something that other people can pick up on. We have never detected such a thing, but it's no more impossible than radio. (I mean, no one's asserted they can read minds FTL.)

      Meanwhile, something like precognition actually does violate the laws of physics as we know them.

      Using a term like ESP, and investigating them as if they were some single thing, is a very good indicator of lack of scientific rigor. It's like if the term was 'float', and you investigated hovercrafts, superconducting antigravity theory, magnets, and people who claimed they could levitate to see if 'float' was possible.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    47. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Brandonski · · Score: 1

      Clearly, you are unfamiliar with your audience. From the ultimate tome of human knowledge (aka the Dungeon Master's Guide) ESP is Mind Reading.

    48. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      I 'extrapolate the future' a lot. I can start toasting something and walk right back into the kitchen right as it finishes without consciously paying attention to the time.

      Of course, I suspect I'm unconsciously paying attention to the time.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    49. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by shadowrat · · Score: 1

      or, people's power of deductive reasoning is actually very good and we can accurately predict many future events by extrapolating from information we gather with our known physical senses. We could all be sherlock holmes to some degree.

    50. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      I don't understand this. If the researchers did a proper experiment, respected the rules, followed proper procedures, and did a proper analysis of the data they collected, in a scientific way. Why is it a problem to publish ?
      So now we should bar publication that don't agree with our general conception ? If it was done considering the specific guidelines set by the scientific community of how to do things, screw them. Science is not a democratic process, nor it should be politically correct. Science is science.

      According to the article refuting the study, what the PSI studies did was make many experiments and then look through them for statistically significant results. Given enough experiments you will always find some results that pass some significance test. What they should have done then was to retest just those results to see if they were real, or just normal variation, but they instead presented the results as though they were confirmed.

      Your comment does hit on another area of bias, which is to discredit results we don't agree with rather than retry the experiments. My favorite example is Duncan MacDougall's experiment to prove the existence of the soul. Everybody discredits him but the experiment has never been repeated. So if anybody asks me, I will always say that the best scientific evidence is that there is a soul.

    51. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      " It is quite possible that directionality of time and impossibility to predict the future is actually something brought into this universe by human beings or life itself."

      No, it's not. The direction of time is a property of this macro universe. It's pretty well shown. If it wasn't then there would be no Consistency in things we didn't influences, but there is.

      And the model reflects reality pretty damn well.

      Oh, yes, it is. The direction of time is clearly a human perception. That much is soundly proven.

      Incidentally, "consistency" is a) a human concept as well and b) why would it not be there? Pure conjecture on your part.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    52. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      So your GPS only outputs 1 number for your position? Mine gives me latitude, longitude and height (and time of course).

    53. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      It is quite possible that directionality of time and impossibility to predict the future is actually something brought into this universe by human beings or life itself.

      It is possible, but then you have to accept that reality is nothing but a construct in our mind (whatever that is).

      First, accepting that is not hard, but I do not follow your argument. This universe could well be a static object, that somehow started interaction with human minds and has been augmented by that. That would imply some form of causality in an additional outer layer, but again, that would be nothing new or surprising. Remember, we are talking about the physical reality of this universe, which is a rather limited subject. Alternative universes and higher-layer environments are entirely possible.

      The belief that this universe and this physical reality is all there is, is just the age-old centric world-view all over again. And my claim is that the 4D model only works well, as long as you do not put human beings (or possibly any form of life) into the equation. That still makes the 4D model a valuable tool, but it is just a tool, not an accurate representation of reality. This is how physics research works.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    54. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I always wanted to blow that guy's mind by taking his cube and cutting the corners off, so it was octagonal shaped instead of square. What would he do then, have a simultaneous 8-day?

      Maybe I'll find him and try it just for fun. Although I do like thinking that someone like him exists in the world.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    55. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't even know what a T-test is, then you're in no position to be talking about statistics at all. A T-test is one of the simplist statistical tests available to test if results differ from chance, or to test if two groups differ. It is not at all sophisticated.

    56. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by millennial · · Score: 1

      It is quite possible that directionality of time and impossibility to predict the future is actually something brought into this universe by human beings or life itself.

      No, actually, that's quite impossible. Life is biology, which is chemistry, which is physics. You're trying to bring magic into it. Either the arrow of time is an actual thing or it's not. Either the universe moved through time before life existed or it didn't.

      --
      I am scientifically inaccurate.
    57. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by spazzmo · · Score: 1
      It is possible, but then you have to accept that reality is nothing but a construct in our mind (whatever that is).I however do believe that there is a reality as such, and I guess most do.

      A shared dream...

      --
      The cheese stands alone...
    58. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I heard about that. It has something to do with time actually being a four-sided cube or something.

    59. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On each individual experiment they perform simple one-sample and paired T-tests -- along with some non-parametric tests.

    60. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by jason.sweet · · Score: 1

      Science is our attempt to tell the story of how the universe works. That story always has, and likely always will be, incomplete, but it does get better over time. The process that we use (most of the time) to make the story better is democratic. People are supposed to "vote" that your version of the story is correct when they cannot think of any more reasons that it is wrong. They should not vote based on how you look, or how much money you raised, or who your friends are. Sure, humans are political animals. That slows the process down, and introduces errors into the story. But I like to think the process eventually overcomes the imperfections of its executors. It can be a very slow process. So slow, in fact, that your original idea is likely to remain unaccepted until long after you are dead.

    61. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Your comment does hit on another area of bias, which is to discredit results we don't agree with rather than retry the experiments. My favorite example is Duncan MacDougall's [wikipedia.org] experiment to prove the existence of the soul. Everybody discredits him but the experiment has never been repeated. So if anybody asks me, I will always say that the best scientific evidence is that there is a soul.

      Ah, the soul has mass ... LoL ... Maybe dark matter is just the accumulation of all the souls of people who died and are now gravitationally bound to the galaxies where they lived. Utterly undetectable except by mass!

      I'm sorry, but I have trouble finding fault with people who reject this out of hand. Generally I'm a stickler for going where the evidence leads, e.g. ISTM that Wegner had compelling evidence that the continents had drifted and scientists should have accepted the fact and started looking for the mechanism. (Easy to say in hindsight, huh.) But some crank trying to weigh souls? It's small wonder no one has tried to replicate his results.

      P.S. - Be sure you don't die by falling into a black hole - you'll never be able to get to heaven!

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    62. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by jbengt · · Score: 1

      It's observational because it is not derived from other principals.[sic]

      The entropy of thermodynamic theory is derived from other principles. As an anolgy to the fact (for reversible processes) that dw = P * dv (where w is work, p is pressure, and v is volume) entropy was invented to satisfy the equation dq = T * ds (where q is heat, T is temperature, and s is entropy). Working out the equations showed that entropy is a property that can be defined in terms of the other previously defined properties.

      Thank you for not trying to explain information theory to me.

      When working on statistical mechanics of idealized gases, it was shown that entropy can be quantified as a measure of the log of the number of states available. In those conditions, the higher the entropy, the less likely you are to know which states are actually occupied, hence the term "disorder".
      Later, it was found that the statistics of information theory included a property with the same mathematical form as the statistical mechanics math about entropy, so the term entropy was adopted in information theory.

      Entropy always stays the same or increases within a closed system, which does seem to provide an arrow of time independent of the human mind.
      I do have one bone to pick about the proposed heat death of the universe, however. The universe, for all we know can be finite or infinite, and open or closed. If it is infinite, I don't think calling it a closed system makes sense (after all, doubling an infinite entropy doesn't increase it beyond infinite). The increase of entropy is only guaranteed within a closed system, so there is no guarantee, yet, that the universe has to end with ever increasing entropy.

    63. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Even taking your post at face value, the fact is that we "living things" still do perceive the past but not the future with the senses currently known by science - if it is discovered that we can also perceive the future, it will be above and beyond our current sensory experience, hence ESP.

      And further, being able to predict something doesn't require sensing it. I can predict the temperature outside from the time of year with better than random accuracy, but that's because I have some knowledge that isn't related to perceiving the item directly. So I don't need to sense it directly to have some information about it. Same with counting cards in a casino.

      Calling it ESP is like saying that everything we can't explain must be God. God drags the sun across the sky because we don't understand gravity and orbital mechanics. Someone guesses the next card with better than random accuracy must be "ESP." But ESP speaks to the cause when the cause is not known. Unless it's proven to be an actual "perception" using something other than the 5 senses, then it isn't ESP. Until the cause is known, it's just precognition - knowing something before you are consciously aware of it - regardless of the cause. So ESP is the incorrect term because it states a cause when no cause is known.

    64. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Relative position in space and space itself are two different things.

      What's the difference between pitch/yaw/roll in an airplane? What happens if you roll the plane 90 degrees? Does the pitch make you still go up or does it make you go left(or right depending on which 90 you rolled). Is it only a pitch when it does a vertical movement?

      our 3 dimensions are based on a gravity source. Your deep in space, what gravity source do you orient yourself to determine which is pitch/yaw/roll? If you say your 1 au from the sun you could be anywhere along a sphere of space that takes you out of the solar system.

      Latitude, Longitude, and height, even when extrapolated for interplanetary means still means your in SPACE. It doesn't matter where in space you are you have 3 Directions you may go(or a combination of them)

      hmm now I think about this I wonder if that is why string theory has 10 and 26 dimensions. Each of the primary dimensions has a number of secondaries. So Space is 1 of the 10 but 3 of the 26.

      too bad I don't have enough money to stay in college until I am 50 to figure it out.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    65. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I haven't read the Times article since I don't want to register but given that the original article repeatingly refers to ESP (including in the key words of the article) I can't see how it would be wrong on the Times to do the same.

    66. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      on precognition (the Times erroneously calls it ESP).

      Why is that erroneous? Precognition and premonition are two facets of Extrasensory Perception. From its wikipedia article:

      Do I make a serious post about logic and category errors, or do I make fun of y- oh, I'm AC. Here goes:

      on squares (the Times erroneously calls it Rectangles).

      Why is that erroneous? Squares and oblongs are two subsets of Rectangles. From its wikipedia article:

      [...]

      ... this is an experiment that tests for Rectangles (quadrilaterals which have four right angles).

      That's what the tests subjects were told and I don't think the article is erroneous.

    67. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      too bad I don't have enough money to stay in college until I am 50 to figure it out.

      Slashdot should offer a Bachelor's degree. BSBS seems like the appropriate letters.

    68. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eh? There's no reason to include humans as a special circumstance in this case is there? Is there some reason to believe that time doesn't have the same effects when not being perceived? No. Quite the opposite in fact - otherwise sciences like geology would be rather baseless and pointless.

    69. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      If it's very specific, why doesn't measuring the entropy of a system tell you what time it is or vice versa

      For the same reason that measuring a system's temperature, which also is a specific measurement, doesn't tell you what time it is.

      I think you're confused about what "specific" means.

      Not to be confused, unfortunately, with the alternate definition of "specific", which is "per unit mass".

    70. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by ae1294 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wait, you've lost me here... what about human beings can't be explained with classical physics?

      2 girls 1 cup

    71. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      What ESP actually means is perceiving things beyond the known and/or physical senses. It's the ability to perceive things without direct stimulation of sensory organs.

      "Perception" is only tautologically a "sense" for certain senses of "sense", which is not the sense meant by ESP.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    72. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Apparently the authors were either ignorant or dishonest, and the reviewers were either ignorant, dishonest, are careless.

      I should have added, "or the author got tired of the journal's sloppy review practices and decided to embarrass them". One of the rebuttals someone linked quoted the author's previous comments on the need for statistical rigor.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    73. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, but this is mostly wrong.
      1) It's not really an alternative model of the universe, but simply a different way of looking at the same one, rather like taking all the frames of a movie and setting them next to each other.
      2) You can't actually do that, because simultaneity is relative.
      3) Even if it did work, whether there are living things or not would have nothing to do with the directionality of time because, among other things, anything that changes entropy is time-directional, and that includes plenty of non-living stuff.
      4) Saying the 4D model only covers dead matter makes absolutely no sense. Just because something is alive doesn't make it immune to the laws of the universe. Also, plenty of the non-alive stuff will be affected by the alive stuff at some point in time.

    74. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      What ESP actually means is perceiving things beyond the known and/or physical senses. It's the ability to perceive things without direct stimulation of sensory organs.

      Those two sentences are two entirely different things. Let us look that them separately:

      What ESP actually means is perceiving things beyond the known and/or physical senses.

      Let's look at that and/or for a second. That has three total combination: unknown but physical senses, known but non-physical senses, and unknown and nonphysical senses. I think we can all agree that there are not any 'known but non-physical senses', so let's drop that.

      So what you actually said was 'unknown but physical senses' or 'unknown and nonphysical senses'. Which obviously reduces down to 'unknown senses of any sort'.

      It's the ability to perceive things without direct stimulation of sensory organs.

      This is entirely counter to your first statement, where you said that ESP does include things sensed by 'physical senses' (As long as it's not known), presumably via 'direct stimulation'.

      If we're now excluding 'unknown but physical', you have now said 'ESP is perceiving things with unknown and nonphysical senses.' (Which is stupid, because ESP, by definition, does not use senses.)

      "Perception" is only tautologically a "sense" for certain senses of "sense", which is not the sense meant by ESP.

      Um, no. The word 'sense' is not in 'ESP', the word extrasensory is in ESP. Extrasensory means outside the senses, which rather makes your entire comment about that sort of 'sense' very strange, as you just defined a type of 'sense' to mean exactly what you wanted ESP to mean, when in actuality you should do the opposite, because ESP must be 'beyond' senses.

      However, getting off 'extrasensory' for a second, what you're confused about is the meaning of perception. Perception is interpreting your senses. That is literally what it means. It's not a tautology, sense and perception aren't the same thing, you can sense something without perceiving it, but you can't perceive something without sensing it.

      If you want to assert that somehow people can learn information without outside sources, and that that's ESP, well, okay, that actually would be ESP.

      But every single test of 'ESP' is actually testing whether people can sense something (and hence perceive it). Granted, they're testing if someone can sense it in a way that should not be possible, but they're testing if they can sense it non-the-less.

      Here, the test is 'Can people sense things before they happen, and if so can they interpret those senses into accurate perception?'.

      None of the ESP tests are seeing if people can obtain enlightenment or figure out the exact distance to the moon or whatever it would mean to just 'perceive' something with no actual sensory source. They're instead looking for new senses, which makes ESP incredibly poorly named.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    75. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      "Perception" is only tautologically a "sense" for certain senses of "sense", which is not the sense meant by ESP.

      Um, no. The word 'sense' is not in 'ESP', the word extrasensory is in ESP. Extrasensory means outside the senses, which rather makes your entire comment about that sort of 'sense' very strange, as you just defined a type of 'sense' to mean exactly what you wanted ESP to mean, when in actuality you should do the opposite, because ESP must be 'beyond' senses.

      Looks like I failed to communicate my meaning because I was in fact doing the opposite of what you think I was -- I was defining "sense" to mean exactly what ESP isn't. So let me try again:

      Extrasensory means "outside the senses".

      The definition of the word "senses" in the definition of "Extrasensory" in the acroym ESP is not the same as the definition you are using when you say "Perception is interpreting your senses. That is literally what it means."

      "Sense" has multiple definitions. You are using one valid definition of sense, but it is not the intended meaning and thus the incorrect one. ESP is only meaningless if you use this incorrect definition. Which should have been the first hint that it was the incorrect one.

      That's it.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    76. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Metaphysics.

    77. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      You realize that you've failed to provide this hypothetical definition of 'sense', right?

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    78. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Of course I did, it was the first sentence in my first post.

      If you're unhappy with that because I allowed it to be ambiguous (oh noes! ambiguity in english!) whether or not it included or excluded the physical -- which by the way did not mean "and/or" as in "both simultaneously connected by a logical OR operator" but rather that it may mean either -- definition #1 at dictionary.com serves nicely as well.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    79. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Burpmaster · · Score: 1

      There's nothing special about living beings. Ask yourself this: why does paper have marks from pen strokes in the past, but not from pen strokes in the future?

    80. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by cavebison · · Score: 1

      The term ESP itself is silly. How can one perceive something which is extra-sensory? If you perceive it, you've sensed it, with any of your 5 physical senses or some supposed additional sense.

      That being said, it's an entirely appropriate term for phenomena which has never been proven to exist.

    81. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by zeropointburn · · Score: 1

      Consider that claiming special insight into the future automatically causes society to label the claimant as delusional. The claim itself is enough to net you a stay for evaluation, therefore the mere fact of a stay in a mental hospital cannot distinguish between delusion and actual paranormal ability, if such ability exists. I personally believe that it is possible and am actively seeking ways to either prove it or allow for the possibility within the framework of the standard theory. I do not expect to succeed. Should I be committed for evaluation?

      --
      -1 raving lunatic; +6 subGenius... Things even out...
    82. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by zeropointburn · · Score: 1

      Relative is the key word. We perceive three spacial dimensions not because we know up, down, left, right, backwards, and forwards but because there are three spacial dimensions for us to perceive. In space, you can choose an arbitrary 'up'. Relative to that 'up', you have the other five directions without the need for an external reference. If you want to eliminate the 'relative' part, then you still have an absolute coordinate space which confers three degrees of freedom of motion, hence three dimensions. We do not know why we exist in 3 spacial dimensions and one temporal dimension, only that we do (ignoring string theory and compact dimensions, anyway). If we were to consider space as a single dimension, any representative formula involving area or volume as we know it would no longer be possible and the vast majority of physics would have to be rewritten from new first principles.

      --
      -1 raving lunatic; +6 subGenius... Things even out...
    83. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aristotle is to blame for this. He's the one who came up with the whole "five senses" nonsense nearly two and a half millenia ago. The reality is that there are a lot more senses than that. Consider balance, temperature, limb position detection, hunger.... There's at least ten you can pretty clearly differentiate, and easily more than twenty if you dig down a bit (for example separating taste out into the six or more specific types of taste). The term Extra Sensory Perception comes from a time with much stronger education in the classics than today for better and/or for worse. When Sir Richard Burton first used it 140 years ago, it's almost certain that he only believed that sight, smell, touch, taste, and hearing were senses. Today, we're not as hemmed in by the teachings of admittedly brilliant, ancients.

    84. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by mburns · · Score: 1

      Solid objects, liquids, chemistry, and even colored light are not explained by classical spacetime, nor by classical thermodynamics. Quantum mechanics is needed for any possibility of explanation of a human being. And everyone acknowledges that QM is not classical.

      --
      Michael J. Burns
    85. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Algorithmnast · · Score: 1
      Our universe seems to be a Minkowski space [oppose: Euclidean space]:

      In physics and mathematics, Minkowski space or Minkowski spacetime (named after the mathematician Hermann Minkowski) is the mathematical setting in which Einstein's theory of special relativity is most conveniently formulated. In this setting the three ordinary dimensions of space are combined with a single dimension of time to form a four-dimensional manifold for representing a spacetime.

      In theoretical physics, Minkowski space is often contrasted with Euclidean space. While a Euclidean space has only spacelike dimensions, a Minkowski space also has one timelike dimension. Therefore the symmetry group of a Euclidean space is the Euclidean group and for a Minkowski space it is the Poincaré group.

      From the same Wikipedia page, we see that the signature is (,+,+,+)

      In the same way that the mathematics of gravity requires a particular Universal Constant, the mathematics of Minkowski space requires that the relativistic distance formula for 4-space be: sqrt( x^2 + y^2 + z^2 - t^2) [where 't' is time's axis]

      As you see, the sign for time is opposite for the sign for the "3 normal dimensions".

      So where am I going with this?

      Philosophically, note that human perception of the "3 normal dimensions" is "outward", yet of the "time dimension" is "inward".

      So it's perfectly normal that we'd not remember into the "forward" direction of time.

    86. Re:Why Is It Wrong to Call This ESP? by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      "some crank trying to weigh souls?"

      See? You're the perfect example of the bias I'm talking about. The account I read said that MacDougall was serious and genuinely attempting to weigh the soul. His own personal beliefs may have influenced him to get a positive result (much like the PSI studies) but I wouldn't call him a crank for that. Do you consider Michaelson and Morley cranks for trying to measure the aether?

  4. Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Didn't see that one coming.

    1. Re:Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      /sunglasses

      YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH


      Filter error: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.

  5. Great response paper by 246o1 · · Score: 5, Informative

    For those who haven't seen it, here's a pretty sharp takedown of this paper, as well as some notes on statistical significance in social sciences in general: www.ruudwetzels.com/articles/Wagenmakersetal_subm.pdf

    --
    Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
    1. Re:Great response paper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      And for those who still haven't seen it, here's a proper link.

    2. Re:Great response paper by paiute · · Score: 1

      And for those who still haven't seen it, here's a proper link.

      The linked paper is a good read, even for someone like myself with only an AP level knowledge of statistics. Good illustrative examples.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    3. Re:Great response paper by ledow · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ouch. Taken down by two Bayesian tests on whether it's more likely that the paper is true or not. They didn't even need to get out of bed or dig out a big maths book to basically disprove the entire premise of the original paper using its own data.

      As they hint at in that rebuttal - As a mathematician and someone of a scientific mind, I would just like to see *ONE* good test that conclusively shuts people up. Trouble is, no good test will report a false result and thus you'll never get the psychic / UFO / religion factions to even participate, let alone agree on the method of testing because they would have to accept its findings.

      Never dabble in statistics - the experts will roundly berate you and correct you even if you *THINK* you're doing everything right. When PhD's can't even work out things like the Monty Hall Problem properly, you just know it's not something you can throw an amateur towards.

    4. Re:Great response paper by Burnhard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But isn't that simply applying the maxim: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? I.e. it is not asserting the evidence doesn't exist, only that the evidence isn't strong enough to make the assertion that the hypothesis is true with any confidence. There's a subtle difference.

    5. Re:Great response paper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the abstract: "We reanalyze Bem’s data using a default Bayesian t-test and show that the evidence for psi is weak to nonexistent".

      Since it all derives to thought through quantum effects, thought realizes it cannot be recursive and thus is correcting for itself. It is the quantum state manifesting itself in the macro world.

    6. Re:Great response paper by wonkavader · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Dabbling is fine when the results are good. He had 53%. If he'd had 65%, dabbling would have worked. But dabbling is just the start, and that's not just the nature of peer review, it's the nature of collaboration and a University setting. You find something neat by dabbling, and you walk down the hall to visit someone with more stats experience to get some clarity before you publish.

      He had 53%. He knew that if he walked down the hall, he'd get told he had squat. So he didn't walk down the hall.

      There's dabble initially, and that's fine. And there's dabbling (ONLY) and calling it done. That's not.

      Seems like the paper was written by a dabbler, then reviewed by a respected team of dabblers. And not one of them looked at 53% and walked down the hall. Bubbleheads.

    7. Re:Great response paper by ledow · · Score: 1

      Do you dabble? :-)

    8. Re:Great response paper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the paper - legitimate and hilarious - you can guess erotic positions, but you can't win big at casinos - "This analysis leaves us with two possibilities. The first possibility is that, for whatever reason, the psi effects are not operative in casinos, but they are operative in psychological experiments on erotic pictures." The second is more legitimate by claiming that psi does not really exist.

    9. Re:Great response paper by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      But isn't that simply applying the maxim: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? I.e. it is not asserting the evidence doesn't exist, only that the evidence isn't strong enough to make the assertion that the hypothesis is true with any confidence. There's a subtle difference.

      Not all that subtle, since you can say "the evidence isn't strong enough" about any claim you care to pull out of your 455.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    10. Re:Great response paper by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1, Funny

      I'm surprised they didn't see this coming.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    11. Re:Great response paper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For those who haven't seen it, here's a pretty sharp takedown of this paper, as well as some notes on statistical significance in social sciences in general: www.ruudwetzels.com/articles/Wagenmakersetal_subm.pdf

      A bit of a rushed response paper with a fair few flaws of its own.

      1. Its first claim, that Bem went on a fishing expedition, uses as evidence advice he gave about writing papers ten years ago in an unrelated book chapter. The accusation that Bem then picked conditions (eg, gender differences) after the fact is not based on proper evidence that he did that, but just because Wagenmakers et al didn't think gender differences were the sorts of things a psychologist might decide to look for. Similarly Wagenmakers claims Bem should have applied a correction to his statistics but provides no evidence that he didn't. There's a great stinking "I'm just going to assume that because Bem got a result I don't like, he must have done a bad job" sitting behind the first 9 pages of the paper.
      2. It's second claim really undercuts the paper by sounding like an academic hissy fit. Essentially this claim is "Bem used the widely accepted p < 0.05 as his threshold for publication. The bastard. He should have plucked a random figure out of the air like p < 0.0000000000000000001 which we'd like him to, and have pre-prejudiced the analysis against the results. Oh, we like that p value because you'd need 2,000 or more subjects to achieve it (which sounds 'achievable' but is actually much more than anyone could feasibly run in an experiment)."

      The third part is then an argument about the relative merits of Bayes factor versus traditional t-tests. That's by far the most interesting part of this paper, but it is buried at the back of 9 pages of rambling ranting (speculating how much money you could win at the casino, etc) in a very unacademic manner.

       

    12. Re:Great response paper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's half the problem; the other half is that the evidence is cherry-picked. The original researcher tested precognition on several kinds of pictures but only women looking at erotic pictures demonstrated an effect (i.e. never men and not women looking at other kinds of picture).

      In other words he ran lots of tests then picked the one that gave a "good" result. This is not the same thing at all as running that test in isolation and looking at the result, yet he used a statistical test that made this assumption.

      You are right, but you ignore the fact that the evidence is crap for other reasons.

    13. Re:Great response paper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "even for someone like myself with only an AP level knowledge of statistics"

      Associated Press? Armor Piercing? Agricultural & Pastoral ?

    14. Re:Great response paper by geekoid · · Score: 1

      hmm, now I want to create a game called Dabble.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    15. Re:Great response paper by wonkavader · · Score: 1

      No, not for years now. I used to be in a position to dabble, and used to watch people dabble. But there was a nice long hall for them to walk down, and a bunch of people down that hall who didn't dabble in the sense that they actually knew what they were doing.

      The dabblers plugged numbers into a T-test. And if they saw something cool they took it down the hall. But I know that some of them would see something that was basically crap and massage it until it looked significant. The low paid ones would then take that down the hall and (generally) get sent back to the drawing board.

      Of the really well paid ones, some would go straight down the hall, and some would delay, but most would ultimately talk with someone about the numbers before attempting publishing and quietly decide to change a study or stick a paper under the rug. The ones who didn't were a problem, and if they didn't behave well in that way, they typically didn't behave well in a lot of other ways, too. Academia has a good number of crazy people.

      I once saw one get bounced out of a position for fudging numbers. The charge was scientific fraud. That was a very happy day for everyone on the hall -- Not just because the vast majority of people want to see good work done, but because a person who want his or her work published even KNOWING that it's bogus tend also to be awful human beings all around.

      When you know, and you still go forward, you're a jerk, and people know it -- they enjoy skewering you. When you don't know your conclusion is wrong, then there's a culture and collaboration problem. We celebrate the scientists who get caught faking breast cancer data or cloning data or vaccines vs. autism data (Jerks) but I think the spate of reports we've seen recently really underlines the fact that they're a smaller problem on the whole then the pleasant people who are working in an environment with a culture problem.

    16. Re:Great response paper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, as someone who is a professor specializing in statistics and psychology at a large research university, I beg to differ about the rebuttal. Frankly, it disturbs me almost as much as the original JPSP article.

      Publishing the JPSP article was a mistake (although there are sociohistorical reasons for doing so that I'll explain shortly). Moreover, on some superficial level, I don't have any problems with the rebuttal. However, the minute I read it, and knew there were rebuttals, I was worried some Bayesian would use it to shove Bayesian statistics down our throats.

      Why am I worried about this? Because Bayesian statistics has its own problems--most notably, how to establish a prior.

      For example, in the Wagenmakers, et al. rebuttal, they assume a prior probability of psi of 10^-20.

      Fair enough, but why? Why not 10^-19 or 10^-5? Why not .50?

      This seems obvious to someone who doesn't believe in psi, but what about the effects of vaccines on autism? What about gender differences in general cognitive ability? What about the effects of some drug on depression? Does it matter if the prior is being assumed by a drug company or an academic researcher?

      The fact is, Wagenmakers, et al. are stacking the cards in their deck as much--if not more--than Bem. If you agree with their prior, you would be ok. But I suspect there are many cases in which you might disagree with a prior.

      There are ways of establishing so-called reference or objective priors in Bayesian methods (e.g., using information theory--see Jeffreys, Jaynes, Lindley, Bernardo, and recent work by Reid, or Google "reference prior"). However, this work is largely in its infancy.

      I am *not* arguing that the paper itself is ok. It deserved much more scrutiny. But to say that Bayesian statistics will somehow save anyone is misleading, if not dangerous. Fisherian and information-theoretic methods are important for the lack of assumptions they make about outcomes.

      There are a lot of ways to tear apart this paper without getting into Bayesian methods. Plenty of subtle (and ironically, psychosocial) factors play a role -- subtle biases, etc. -- that have nothing to do with statistics. (Read Ionnadis's paper for a start: http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124).

      P.S. So why might they publish this paper? A friendly skeptic might note that Bem is historically a major figure in social psychology, and sort of disappeared in some ways to do this sort of research. Many sort of looked at this with raised eyebrows, and my guess is that the editors might have seen this paper as an "update" for those in the field about what Bem is up to. I.e., the value of the paper may have been seen to be in its history-of-psychology angle rather than the research findings. But I'm sort of giving them a *big* benefit of the doubt in this regard.

      Anyway, please don't use this paper to start condescending arguments about how psychologists don't know statistics. I can find plenty of comp sci papers that have all sorts of holes (and read them all the time).

    17. Re:Great response paper by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      That was good to read. One comment is that the authors seem to consider the sample size to be the number of subjects. And, with a sample size of 100, it is rather obvious that you can't show a 3% effect convincingly. But, I think Bem considered the number of trials to be the number of subjects times the number of trials per subject, in which case they have not really addressed his approach. On the other hand, some of the comments on experimental design seem helpful.

    18. Re:Great response paper by suomynonAyletamitlU · · Score: 1

      As someone of a scientific mind, I would just like to see *ONE* good test that conclusively shuts people up.

      I don't particularly want to defend psychics et al, but I want to make it clear that we are lightyears shy of actually, tangibly being able to prove such a nonexistence--and if you have any appreciation for statistics, you ought to understand that.

      To disprove it, we'd have to understand the brain or the mind (mind being "ourselves" in that self-obvious way that philosophers argue about, brain being the physical substrate where it happens) from an engineer's perspective, that is, knowing what everything actually does and how it fits into the larger picture. The reason we got a spaceship from the earth to the moon and back again, the reason we've created sub-nanometer structures, the reason computers function at all is because we actually do know what we're talking about and there are no question marks left; computers would have been the highest, most heretical form of voodoo before we understood what electricity was. And even once we have that engineer's perspective, we have to create or find an experimentally clean slate (which we cannot create without that knowledge, much less verify) and do the tests necessary. It's probably possible, given another hundred or thousand years worth of research, but there's no actual disproving possible right now; you can only tell believers to "give up" because of your own belief that they're wrong and a bunch of (perhaps incidental) testing.

      I don't require you to believe that paranormal or religious things exist, and in fact I'm not really defending those beliefs. But without an experimentally clean slate, you're left with statistics--and those statistics are formed under all kinds of biases with regards to who is being studied, when, and under what circumstances, and we don't even know whether one or all of those contaminates the study, nor how to compensate. Even the best defense of the science involved has to accept that.

    19. Re:Great response paper by hedwards · · Score: 1

      As they hint at in that rebuttal - As a mathematician and someone of a scientific mind, I would just like to see *ONE* good test that conclusively shuts people up. Trouble is, no good test will report a false result and thus you'll never get the psychic / UFO / religion factions to even participate, let alone agree on the method of testing because they would have to accept its findings.

      This is rich, a mathematician lecturing the rest of us on science and getting it wrong. Psychics, UFOs and religion haven't been disproven, the lack of evidence in support is not the same thing as having enough evidence to conclusively prove that they don't exist. Sure the likelihood of those hypotheses being correct is somewhere between quite unlikely and completely impossible, but given the amount we don't know about the universe it's way too soon to suggest that those ideas aren't valid on some level to some extent in some way, even if just as a proxy for something that is real and observable.

      The problem is that weak studies like this which completely ignore what is a few reasonable statistical tests without sound reason is just going to undermine the research that might come up with something.

      Given that statisticians make in order to use their formulae, I don't think that they or anybody using those methods should be getting too sanctimonious about it. There are definitely situations where it breaks down, and considering the lack of justification for some of those assumptions, it's going to have issues at time.

      Also, observer state problems really make it hard to prove/disprove a lot of those sorts of ideas, if you're not really careful in how you construct the experiment you can totally blow any chance of coming to a reasonable conclusion.

    20. Re:Great response paper by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Never dabble in statistics - the experts will roundly berate you and correct you even if you *THINK* you're doing everything right.

      Indeed. I was about to make a post a minute ago about cherry picking results, and tried to figure out how some coin flipping thing. I said 'If you flipped a coin 10 times, and got all heads, that's a 0.1% chance'. (I believe I got this correct. It's 50% to the tenth power. 50% the first time, 25% the second, divide by half each time down to 0.0976%) Then I said 'So if you run that experiment 500 times, you get a 50% chance of one of them being all heads.' (This is where I think I was wrong.)

      Then I went to find out how many few times you'd need to get a 50% chance of 10 in a row if you didn't stop on the 'boundaries' of the experiment, if you weren't running a 'ten flip experiment' repeatedly, if you were just flipping. And I found this...which said you needed 1500 flips to get a 50% of ten in a row. (Look at the n=10 graph.)

      I wrote that down...and then looked at my math that said you needed 500 flips for 50% and you'd even get it on a boundary.

      And I said 'Well, obviously I've run into something about statistics I don't understand' and didn't finish that post. Statistics is complicated, especially if you're talking about multiple experiments.

      When PhD's can't even work out things like the Monty Hall Problem properly, you just know it's not something you can throw an amateur towards.

      I probably couldn't work out the Monty Hall problem if someone told it to me, but I do actually understand the correct answer. I even once built a simulator in an online game that would randomly switch or not, and keep track, and ran it, and, sure enough, 2/3rds of the time you should switch.

      Now that I thought of that, I wish someone would write a 'statistics calculator', where people could put in the various odds of specific things happening, and then it would run simulations to show you the actual results. You tell it the starting odds, let it run, and then look at the results column and it would essentially tell you how often you'd expect that to happen.

      Yes, you can figure that out mathematically, but no one understands the math. It's much easier if people could have put in the starting conditions for, say, this experiment, ran a simulation of it happening 100,000 times, and said 'Hey, look, these results happened 3000 times by pure chance.'. You could even single-step through the simulation if you wanted.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    21. Re:Great response paper by Burnhard · · Score: 1

      True... but then choice of confidence interval is somewhat arbitrary anyway.

    22. Re:Great response paper by RightwingNutjob · · Score: 1

      The standard error for a Bernoulli trial (right or wrong are the only outcomes) looks like sqrt(p(1-p)/N). If N=100 (which looks like the trial he ran), then for p anywhere between 0.25 and 0.75 (even though we know it's really 0.5), sigma >= 3.3%.

      This means that if you ran the N=100 experiment 100 times, about 33 or those trials will yield you a value of correct between 46.6% and 53.3%, 33 will be between 40 and 46.6%, another 33 will be between 53.3 and 60%, and the last one might be anywhere, but probably closer to 40 or 60.

      This is what is known as small number statistics. And I learned it (correctly) in a graduate level engineering course which required several years worth of advanced mathematics in undergrad. My experience is that medical types usually don't take that route, and therefor they make asses of themselves getting excited over random noise.

    23. Re:Great response paper by nusuth · · Score: 1

      The obvious fix is to present erotic pictures iff the gambler picks correct color. If I get the original paper correctly, presenting erotic pictures and hubble photographs before heading to casino should work just as well - as long as your gamblers are extrovert chicks.

      --

      Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!

    24. Re:Great response paper by Nick+Number · · Score: 1

      Advanced Placement. It's a program for American high school students to take college-level courses.

      An armor piercing knowledge of statistics would be pretty cool though.

      --
      Promote proofreading. Don't mod up sloppy posts.
    25. Re:Great response paper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Touchy touchy.

      I have a Ph.D. in statistics at a major research university. From what I have seen psychologists are largely delusional about their abilities to do statistical analyses. I'm curious how the ability to find comp sci papers with holes in them relates to psychologists ability to do statistics.

      Wagenmakers et al. are certainly being opportunistically preachy, but that doesn't make them wrong. Their statistical analysis using Bayes factors in no way uses priors, there is no stacking the deck on their part.

      You are quite right that there is no need to make use of Bayesian methods to tear apart the paper. Personally I'd interpret Wagenmaker's paper as an attack on psychologists use of statistical methods. Judging from your lack of understanding of Wagenmaker's analysis it is bang on.

    26. Re:Great response paper by rateldajer · · Score: 1

      in a sense that's the essence of a Bayesian analysis, assuming our initial prior beliefs about the world are reasonable, then extraordinary claims that conflict with those priors require more evidence to convince us than something which is expected. Which is as it should be. If its true you should have no trouble gathering enough evidence to overcome the 'extraordinariness' inertia.

  6. Research Funding by MoonBuggy · · Score: 4, Informative

    I haven't yet had a chance to read the paper fully (it's 50 or so pages), but if they are actually that confident in their evidence that precognition has been found, the James Randi Foundation has a million dollars waiting for them.

    1. Re:Research Funding by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      Why settle for just 1M? Play the lottery for a few weeks and you don't even have to bother writing an article to be rich.

    2. Re:Research Funding by Rob+Kaper · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Any evidence for precognition instantly takes precognition into the scientific realm and out of the paranormal, supernatural and occult.

    3. Re:Research Funding by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      That'd be remarkably stupid, since they could just visit casinos and pull in a million dollars every couple of days. At least until the casinos run out of money.

    4. Re:Research Funding by dkleinsc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm not sure they're that confident in their evidence. Nor should they be - they did a study, they publish their findings, lots of other scientists either put down rebuttals (as has already happened), or repeat the study and see if it's accurate enough to be true. That's the way science is supposed to work.

      What's not supposed to happen is "Scientist A does an apparently sound study that appears to demonstrate something that scientists B,C, and D consider silly, and scientists B, C, and D stop scientist A's work from ever seeing the light of day."

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    5. Re:Research Funding by sycodon · · Score: 1

      I believe that they have to tell him what is in an envelope locked in a safe to get the money. Unless he's doubled down and made additional challeneges.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    6. Re:Research Funding by MoonBuggy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Oh, absolutely, but the rules state:

      Webster’s Online Dictionary defines “paranormal” as “not scientifically explainable; supernatural.”

      Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal.

      I'm sure that if a bunch of scientists came along and said "we have statistically significant evidence of precognition, and not a damn clue how it works", the Randi foundation would jump at the chance to test them.

      I don't believe for a second that these people actually do have any legit evidence, but on the off chance that they are for real then this will be a massive breakthrough. Of course, it will be explainable by science in time, and perhaps "supernatural" is a poor choice of word, but if you read through the entire FAQ you'll see that the foundation sound entirely reasonable, and I don't doubt that they would be willing to test something on the basis that it runs quite counter to currently accepted theory.

      Their aim (and one that I applaud) seems to be to either disprove paranormal claims, or to prove them in a scientific manner. Sure, doing so will, by definition, destroy their 'paranormal' status, but it could also revolutionise scientific thinking. As I said though, it's probably a moot point, since I see no reason to believe this paper any more than the thousands that came before it.

    7. Re:Research Funding by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Funny

      If they exist, I want them arrested immediately for aiding and abetting terrorists on September 10, 2001. Obviously, they all willfully stayed silent.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    8. Re:Research Funding by 246o1 · · Score: 2

      I'm not sure they're that confident in their evidence. Nor should they be - they did a study, they publish their findings, lots of other scientists either put down rebuttals (as has already happened), or repeat the study and see if it's accurate enough to be true. That's the way science is supposed to work.

      What's not supposed to happen is "Scientist A does an apparently sound study that appears to demonstrate something that scientists B,C, and D consider silly, and scientists B, C, and D stop scientist A's work from ever seeing the light of day."

      They shouldn't be confident in their evidence - you are right about the way science should be done, but I think in this case the rebuttals are easy to find because this paper seems to be the result of significance-chasing, with enough simultaneous 'experiments' going on within each individual experiment (i.e., the 'experiment' to determine whether men were affected by Thing Type A was a subset of the experiment of whether anyone was affected by Things Type A,B,C, or D) that it would be surprising if significant deviations didn't occur.

      This exact problem exists, with added moral hazard, in drug companies doing trials, which is why we should always require that the data of ALL drug trials be made public - otherwise, a drug company desperate for a win could run 20 different studies, and usually get a 95% significant result above placebo on even a placebo! It's important to consider the number of chances someone has to make their case, in random trials, not just whether one study or way of slicing the data seems to make the case.

      --
      Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.
    9. Re:Research Funding by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1, Insightful

      something to the effect of 'since there are no rich fortune-tellers, we have to assume that they are all fakes.'

      the answer is simple, really. they are all fakes.

      life isn't all complex. humans being fakers and liars is one constant we can count on in the universe.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    10. Re:Research Funding by MoonBuggy · · Score: 1

      The challenge I linked allows anyone with a claim of "paranormal ability" to design their own scientific test, to be agreed upon by the foundation. Once agreement is reached, the person is tested under supervision by a panel of impartial experts. Theoretically, they then show an astonishing ability, get a nice bundle of cash, and science is greatly advanced by studying what they can do. So far, though, the result has invariably been that the participant looks slightly sheepish when their 'powers' fail to function in the preliminary test.

      I always think it's kind of a shame, actually - sceptical as I am, I'd quite like to see some amazing new phenomenon that we can't yet explain.

    11. Re:Research Funding by PseudonymousBraveguy · · Score: 1

      If precognition worked, they would make billions on the stock exchange. The 1m US$ would only be a tiny bonus.

    12. Re:Research Funding by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      No problem. Given the news that just came out about scientific reproducibility, they just have to do the experiment again in order to not verify (disprove) it.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    13. Re:Research Funding by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      That assumes perfect precognition. The effects that I saw claimed were more like, 3% better than random.

      For a number of casino games, with "perfect play" (perfect not including black jack card counting, even though it should) the casino advantage is in that range usually. In fact, I believe the payout on slot machines is often close to 98%, again depending on the play. (some of the really pathalogically bad bets give the house much better odds)

      So, maybe these people DO hit up casinos, and... don't even know it. They just seem to have a bit more luck than everyone else, and come out just a bit up. Of course, one claim that I didn't see (have seen other articles on this) is that individuals have precognition. Perhaps everybody has just a tiny bit of it.

      Now, more likely... these are statistical anomalies. Frankly, I wouldn't doubt that he knows that and is trying to make a point.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    14. Re:Research Funding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, I think that should read: "until the casinos ban them for life, on their first day, well before they've managed to turn much of a profit on the trip". Casinos don't like winners and they all share information with each other to ban them.

    15. Re:Research Funding by mangu · · Score: 1

      The effects that I saw claimed were more like, 3% better than random.

      Which should be more than good enough to make a fortune.

      At European casinos, if you play red vs. black in the roulette, you have a 18/37 chance, that is 48.64%, of winning double your bet.

      A 3% better than random precognition rate would let you get rich in a few hours, while still being random enough to be considered pure luck, so you could get filthy rich before they banned you from all the casinos in the world.

    16. Re:Research Funding by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      That assumes perfect precognition. The effects that I saw claimed were more like, 3% better than random.

      in the PDF rebuttal posted by 246o1, the authors show that with a mere 53.1% advantage on predicting the color a roulette wheel turns up, a psychic could "bankrupt all casinos on the planet before anybody realized what was going on".

      This is a no-brainer. If merely one person in a million could predict the future, teleport, move objects with their mind, or any of the other stuff usually claimed, our society simply couldn't operate as it does. There would be new layers of safeguards on darn near everything, which don't actually exist because they aren't actually needed.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    17. Re:Research Funding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Scientist A does an apparently sound study"

      Still waiting on THAT part.

    18. Re:Research Funding by wytcld · · Score: 1

      something to the effect of 'since there are no rich fortune-tellers, we have to assume that they are all fakes.'

      That's just brilliant. If there is someone who has precognition working well enough to become quite rich from it, do you think they'll be announcing that publicly, or just quietly getting rich?

      The general rule of thumb: Those who announce publicly that they've got such an ability working well for them probably don't - they're trying to make money not from the ability itself (which they don't have) but from the gullible who'll pay to be in their proximity. If they are some who have the ability, they're likely to keep it well hidden. Do you know where every one of the rich people in your neighborhood got their wealth? Really? For some of them, did it involve what looks to be really good luck? Now, can you rule out precognition as a factor in obtaining that luck?

      Improving the odds by a few percent can be enough to beat the house, and will have more long-term survival value than making it blindingly obvious you've got precognition. You don't want to be branded a cheat or a witch. What this study is showing is evidence that evolution has provided us a way to improve the odds, particularly the reproductive odds (which are valued by evolution) by a few percent. There are, by the way, prior studies of a different design also showing that erotic images provoke precognition - carried out at the University of Amsterdam by Dick Bierman.

      --
      "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    19. Re:Research Funding by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      According to this study, people reacted instinctively (arousal) to what would happen (porn photo) mere seconds before hand. There's nothing to indicate that anyone could use that information to change the future. Imagine that the random picture game was a choice game: they will choose only one or the other photo, and the arousal/non-arousal will let them know which they'll receive, but not which they'll choose.
      They'd have to find someone who is aroused by watching a specific someone else win, and place side-bets mere moments before they win.

    20. Re:Research Funding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe it was necessary to prevent an even larger tragedy. What if the next Hitler was working in one of the towers?

      Or maybe there was a precog on the plane that went down in Pennsylvania?

      Ok, tinfoil hat back on.

      Then again, any person with the ability to see the future would probably spend all their time buying lottery tickets and betting on sports.

    21. Re:Research Funding by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      No it doesn't. 3% is more than enough for some casino games. And you can just get a group of precogs together and vote to increase the gain anyway (well assuming they aren't "linked" somehow so that their right predictions are in lock-step with one another).

    22. Re:Research Funding by geekoid · · Score: 1

      The results from random chance would be 50%. They got 53%. Not a statistical significance at all.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    23. Re:Research Funding by geekoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But when A doesn't do a sound study, then B,C,D should say something.

      Even if it was a good study, there findings are the same you would expect from random chance. I.e. well within the margin of error.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    24. Re:Research Funding by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      Ahh but they did find (realize, I don't believe this shit, but I have to play devil's advocate here) that subject matter mattered. Maybe the human mind is so specifically in "tune" with sexual imagery? Perhaps such a small number of people are "in tune" with the sorts of information that is useful in gambling that these "slightly lucky people" just... seem like exactly that?

      With such small effects, and a lock in on subject matter, it really does make it hard to generalize as to what the effects of such a finding would be. The ability to "precognitively" sense sexual imagry isn't really helpful in any games that I know... well... unless you count picking up sex partners at parties.

      -Steve

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    25. Re:Research Funding by shams42 · · Score: 1

      The results from random chance would be 50%. They got 53%. Not a statistical significance at all.

      You fail statistics. 53% can be significant with a large enough sample size.

    26. Re:Research Funding by russotto · · Score: 1

      This is a no-brainer. If merely one person in a million could predict the future, teleport, move objects with their mind, or any of the other stuff usually claimed, our society simply couldn't operate as it does.

      Only if they knew they could do it. For instance, I've never played roulette. If I did have some sort of uncanny advantage at it, I wouldn't know. If it was a small but significant advantage and I didn't play often, I'd probably attribute it to random chance.

    27. Re:Research Funding by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2

      Only if they knew they could do it.

      Ah. So the set of people who actually have precognitive or other supernatural ability turns out, for some reason, to have no intersection with the demonstrably large set of people who believe they do.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    28. Re:Research Funding by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Yes, but you're assuming that either all precogs are very intelligent. (Or so precognitive that they see that it would be a mistake to demonstrate their talents, which is indistinguishable from 'very intelligent'.)

      And then you also want us to believe that these studies are correct, which also require there to be stupid precogs who don't know enough to hide.

      So, essentially, you believe there are people with almost no psychic powers that require a lot and lot of testing to discover, and everyone else is either smart enough or psychic enough to hide their talent, and there's never been anyone in the middle who happily goes around bragging about how he can win the lottery or bankrupt the roulette wheel whenever he wants to and is invited on all the talk shows?

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    29. Re:Research Funding by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      Well lets also not forget, the claim is that subject matter matters. People were no better than random for non-sexual imagery. Being able to select which window will show you porn, or, by extension, possibly which girl at the bar is going to sleep with you tonight, with a 3% greater accuracy than would be expected, is nice...

      However.... its not going to help you beat the casino.

      -Steve

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    30. Re:Research Funding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not if the precognition is extremely noisy. All casino games have a house edge, and if the benefit of precognition fails to exceed the edge, the house will still gain more than the player. If precognition exists, then it's probably very noisy or require particular circumstances (e.g. autoganzfeld), because otherwise it would already have been detected.

    31. Re:Research Funding by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I have a statistical anomaly that I can't explain nor understand, but I wish I could.

      One night after the kids had gone to bed and I was watching TV with my then wife, 13 year old daughter came down the stairs crying uncontrollaby, shaking with fear, barely able to talk.

      She'd had a terrible nightmare and was sure it was going to come true. "People were getting smashed and burned up and jumping out of windows and screaming and thousands of people are going to die!"

      We finally got her calmed down and convinced that it was just a bad dream.

      The date was September 10, 2001. Less than twelve hours later the World Trade Center was destroyed, and the pictures on TV were just as she'd described her dream.

    32. Re:Research Funding by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      The Randi Foundation did in fact find someone who had a power beyond normal humans, although he wasn't trying for a million dollars because it was not, strictly speaking, 'supernatural'.

      Arthur Lintgen claimed that he could recognize classical music based on looking at the grooves with his eye...and he can, almost entirely flawlessly. No tricks. Proven in a scientific double-blind study.

      But he doesn't have, or claim to have, superpowers, just amazing knowledge of classical music and the ability to recognize patterns in the record grooves and match them to music.

      And at this point, he's done the trick so often he can often identify which publishing company made the record simply by the exact color and texture of the record, and figure out the music by looking at it...and as he knows all major recordings, so he can then hilariously pretend to identify the conductor and even the exact date it was recorded by glancing at the record.

      But he really just knows 'This is Beethoven 3rd, and the record is from publishing company X, and the only time they published that is..'

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    33. Re:Research Funding by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      There's always Arthur Lintgen, who has a pretty cool, but entirely explained, power. And the Randi Foundation proved he had it.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    34. Re:Research Funding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if it turns out someone tipped them and was not believed? What do you want then? Prosecutions for the pols not believing in the supernatural?

    35. Re:Research Funding by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      You might be surprised just what you can gamble on if you look hard enough...

    36. Re:Research Funding by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      There's no need to change the future. Using your scenario:

      Just show them a porn photo when the ball lands on red, and a non-porn photo when it lands on black. Betting on black or red according to their state of arousal.

    37. Re:Research Funding by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      rotfl point taken!

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    38. Re:Research Funding by A-man · · Score: 1

      Daryl Bem was asked about the James Randi Foundation prize in an interview in New Scientist (subscription required).

      James "The Amazing" Randi, a fellow magician and prominent sceptic, has put up a prize of $1 million for anyone who can provide evidence of the paranormal. Are you tempted to enter?

      No. He controls the entire process and he has never been totally clear as to what level of probability he would accept. He also insists on having all the rights to reporting what happened and that's not how we as scientists progress.

  7. Extraordinary claims... by sdo1 · · Score: 1

    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." - Marcello Truzzi

    --
    --- What parts of "shall make no law", "shall not be infringed", and "shall not be violated" don't you understand?
    1. Re:Extraordinary claims... by paiute · · Score: 1

      "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." - Marcello Truzzi

      "Extraordinary claims require a shiny object in my left hand to distract you from my right." - S. A. Scoggin

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    2. Re:Extraordinary claims... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is where I depart from this quote. Extraordinary claims only need evidence, plain and simple. Once we start judging what claims are extraordinary and what evidence is extraordinary, we're further into the realms of value judgements when we should be striving for the objectivity. What's extraordinary to one will be obvious to another - this must be avoided. The scientific method is good enough (not perfect, but good enough) for us to get by until we can develop something better without subjective cries of "I don't like it so I want more".

      Disclaimer: I am a scientist with lots of statistical knowledge.

    3. Re:Extraordinary claims... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, Pavlov has no worries regarding the truth of his work.

  8. Cue Ghostbusters opening scene by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    I don't know...just a bunch of squiggly lines?

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:Cue Ghostbusters opening scene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *ZZZAPP!**

  9. everyone else is outraged by circletimessquare · · Score: 1, Funny

    but i saw this coming

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  10. You guys are all late to the game... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All of the people qualified to have this argument already had it yesterday.

  11. Save the click by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I already read it.

  12. I agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    There are many types of ESP, covering different aspects of life. Each is differentiated by a letter.

    For example, the 14th type of ESP covers sports. It is called ESPN.

    1. Re:I agree by click2005 · · Score: 2

      Thats match-fixing not precognition.

      --
      I am a free slashdotter. I will not be modded, blogged, DRM'd, patented, podcasted or RFID'd. My life is my own.
  13. I can predict the future! by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

    I predict this article will spark a bunch of kvetching about having to register and obligatory links to bugmenot like sites. Do I win?

    1. Re:I can predict the future! by erroneus · · Score: 1

      I agree with you completely except for the kvetching part. I find it difficult to agree because I don't know what it means. I suspect it is not an English word.

    2. Re:I can predict the future! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yiddish

  14. Reminds me of this hoax... by LordNacho · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair

    Basically, a physicist made up some BS and got it published in a journal called Social Text about postmodern cultural studies. He then came out later and revealed the hoax, embarrassing the reviewers and the journal. Lack of intellectual rigour seemed to be the target. This time, it seems to be more specifically aimed at the lack of understanding of statistics in certain subjects.

    1. Re:Reminds me of this hoax... by SoVeryTired · · Score: 3, Interesting

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogdanov_Affair

      The hard sciences aren't immune to this kind of thing either. The Bogdanov affair wasn't as serious as the Sokal affair, but it's still in the same ball park.

      --
      Slashdot: news for Apple. Stuff that Apple.
    2. Re:Reminds me of this hoax... by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      And the fact that Reputation can get an article published.

    3. Re:Reminds me of this hoax... by fadethepolice · · Score: 1

      Similar reasoning would also invalidate the worldwide banking system because bernie madoff and ponzi were able to pull off a financial hoax.

    4. Re:Reminds me of this hoax... by LordNacho · · Score: 1

      I wasn't saying it was ALL invalid. Just that one needs to be vigilant.

    5. Re:Reminds me of this hoax... by Beetle+B. · · Score: 1

      He then came out later and revealed the hoax, embarrassing the reviewers and the journal.

      What reviewers? The journal was not a peer reviewed journal. In other words, it was merely at the level of a magazine.

      Almost every time the Sokal Affair comes up on the net, I have to correct someone on this point.

      --
      Beetle B.
    6. Re:Reminds me of this hoax... by LordNacho · · Score: 1

      He then came out later and revealed the hoax, embarrassing the reviewers and the journal.

      What reviewers? The journal was not a peer reviewed journal. In other words, it was merely at the level of a magazine.

      Almost every time the Sokal Affair comes up on the net, I have to correct someone on this point.

      See what happens when you ignore the review process? :)

    7. Re:Reminds me of this hoax... by Beetle+B. · · Score: 1

      Yes, you get a useless magazine.

      Publishing a nonsensical paper in a useless magazine proves little.

      --
      Beetle B.
    8. Re:Reminds me of this hoax... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Almost every time the Sokal Affair comes up on the net, I have to correct someone on this point.

      Obligatory http://xkcd.com/386/

  15. Should have seen it coming?? by dubstar · · Score: 1

    ...just sayin!

  16. precognition? by X10 · · Score: 1

    They should have known.

    --
    no, I don't have a sig
  17. covered in November by New Scientist by owzleee · · Score: 1
  18. Peer review wouldn't matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been to grad school, and much of the research being done out there in many disciplines, especially in the social sciences (but even the real sciences as well), is a lot of rubbish anyways, and having a statistical expert or a statistically driven paper only serves the purpose of legitimizing the invalidity of the rubbish. Professors publish papers as part of their job description, and the more papers a university publishes, the more funding it gets. Universities have become businesses pumping out lots of garbage to make lots of cash, just like normal American businesses have become: 1) produce garbage, 2) take people's money. Why do you think tuition goes up 5-10% every year? Follow the money trail.

  19. Peer review only provides weak prescreening by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm a Ph.D. candidate in EE, and I'm sometimes invited to review papers for IEEE journals.

    I always read the paper carefully at least 3 times, read the important parts of references that are new to me, check all the math and sometimes even reproduce some simpler simulations.

    Most reviewers aren't this careful. They either don't have the time or don't have the expertise to find some flaws. Keep in mind that reviewers aren't paid, and are anonymous. Also, the best reviewers are the best researchers, who are usually busy with their own projects.

    I often find serious flaws that my fellow reviewers completely overlook. Fortunately in these cases, the editors have always used my reviews to override the other two (the review decision is not a majority vote). Given the quality of the reviewers out there, some papers are accepted simply because the editor invited 3 incompetent reviewers, which is not very unusual. And we're talking about IEEE journals, which should be the best in the field.

    So in practice, peer review is only a weak pre-screening process that often rejects good papers and accepts bad work. Science progresses because once something is published, other people attempt to reproduce it. If the idea works, then it's incorporated into other work and becomes famous. Otherwise, people just ignore it.

    1. Re:Peer review only provides weak prescreening by gweihir · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I have a PhD in CS.

      You can also have good science rejected by getting three incompetent reviewers. Happened to me several times, the worst one when the program committee attached a note that showed they had not read or understood their own call for papers. I suspect a direct lie to keep me out. Published it later unchanged somewhere else and those people were surprised it got rejected earlier.

      In addition to incompetent reviewers, there are also those that are envious or want to steal your ideas. Peer-review is fundamentally broken. One friend who has a PhD in a different CS area thinks 70% of researchers are corrupt, reviewing things positively when they know the authors, no matter the quality and negatively otherwise. Lying in application to research grants is also quite common. The final result is that good researchers have trouble working and often leave research altogether, which may be an explanation for how glacially slow some fields move.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:Peer review only provides weak prescreening by Burnhard · · Score: 2

      Who was it who said, "science progresses one funeral at a time"?

    3. Re:Peer review only provides weak prescreening by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      Max Planck (sort of)

      Who was it who said, "You know how to use a search engine, right?" ;-) I teez!

    4. Re:Peer review only provides weak prescreening by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can also have good science rejected by getting three incompetent reviewers. Happened to me several times, the worst one when the program committee attached a note that showed they had not read or understood their own call for papers. I suspect a direct lie to keep me out. Published it later unchanged somewhere else and those people were surprised it got rejected earlier.

      OP here.

      The situation is disgraceful in CS, because instead of having a few large conferences and major journals, you have a lot of tiny conferences with 10% acceptance rates.

      If you choose a random prestigious CS conference, you'll see that 50%+ of the papers have very close ties to the conference chairs. The same edition of the conference for the next year has papers from very different people. Clearly, this is not because the experts in the field are no longer the same, but because the conference chairs change from one year to the next.

      So if your advisor is not a bigshot, you can get used to having papers rejected.

      (Disclaimer: I've fortunately never had to submit anything to a CS conference)

    5. Re:Peer review only provides weak prescreening by blind+biker · · Score: 2

      I have a PhD in CS.

      You can also have good science rejected by getting three incompetent reviewers. Happened to me several times, the worst one when the program committee attached a note that showed they had not read or understood their own call for papers. I suspect a direct lie to keep me out. Published it later unchanged somewhere else and those people were surprised it got rejected earlier.

      In addition to incompetent reviewers, there are also those that are envious or want to steal your ideas. Peer-review is fundamentally broken. One friend who has a PhD in a different CS area thinks 70% of researchers are corrupt, reviewing things positively when they know the authors, no matter the quality and negatively otherwise. Lying in application to research grants is also quite common. The final result is that good researchers have trouble working and often leave research altogether, which may be an explanation for how glacially slow some fields move.

      I am a researcher in micro and nanotech, and I can confirm this trend in my field, as well. In fact, one journal in particular has been especially bad in rejecting my articles with some awful refereeing, which I will save for posterity. I am tempted to rub my published articles under the nose of the (probably equally incompetent or corrupt) editor of that journal.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    6. Re:Peer review only provides weak prescreening by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Who was it who said, "science progresses one funeral at a time"?

      Very, very true. Getting my PhD did teach me that. And left me deeply disgusted with most of the academic world.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    7. Re:Peer review only provides weak prescreening by Burnhard · · Score: 1

      It was a rhetorical question :p.

    8. Re:Peer review only provides weak prescreening by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      :-) I said I teez. :-)

    9. Re:Peer review only provides weak prescreening by Transaction7 · · Score: 1

      in practice, peer review is only a weak pre-screening process that often rejects good papers and accepts bad work." I knew it! I managed to get through statistics in college but statistics, and math, are not my strong suit. Nevertheless, the tobacco, pharmaceutical, and silicone breast implant companies persuaded the Supreme Court to require publication in the right journals and peer review before accepting any new scientific, or non-scientific expert, work as evidence. It took years even with that requirement before somebody figured out that two different batches of bullets might match up just as though they had come from the same melt of metal. The rub is that nobody is ever going to do meaningful "peer review" on the odds for and against many events until they start costing big businesses and their insurers big bucks so it becomes important, and profitable, to prove that you can't prove what's going on. The Supreme Court of Texas took this one step farther, in relation to something that does require very, very careful expert work, and held that, since there were no experts yet who they recognized in a subject, there would be no way to ever become one. Some things you end up trying to prove or defend against in court didn't happen enough times to make statistics and statistical significance significant, but that proves nothing. By the way, who oversees who is selected to review these articles. This author, who seems to be a real expert in some areas, reveals the truth, that not all these human reviewers are much good. Is anybody really surprised?

  20. If you think you may be psychic... by steak · · Score: 1

    maybe you are.

    Harness your unique abilities and take advantage of the many Federal benefits available for psychic citizens.

    Would you like to know more ?

    1. Re:If you think you may be psychic... by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      Your ideas intrigue me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    2. Re:If you think you may be psychic... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Your ideas intrigue me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

      Go here. Don't watch the movie though, it sucked.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  21. Bad language by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    The word precognition should fall into the same kind of internal contradiction as the word almighty, at least for the future events on which you can change affect whether it happens or not. To predict the future is ok, but really knowing the future should violate some physics rules as going faster than the speed of light.

  22. I believe by NuKe_MoNgOoSe · · Score: 1

    Why not? The world is more interesting believing in shit like this.. same with aliens and ghost and the after life, god and jesus.. The world is just more colorful if you lose logic and adopt a ideology that anything we know may be wrong, and anything we dont know can certainly be possible. Most people are so trapped in the confines of logic and science that the magical or the fantastic are ludacris concepts that are best kept in comic books. For those of us able to step outside this ignorant box the world is a much more varied place full of wonder and mystery even more than science itself can offer a explanation to. Electrical activity shows we only use a small percentage of our brain at any given time and there are regions of the brain that medical science has no idea what they are for. It is not so far fetched to believe that the logical rules of this world cannot be bent or even broken. We are just to stubborn to let go of the linear and hard-angled concepts, the rules that allow us to explain and categorize everything in our life.. See the future, move objects with your mind, call on reseves of extraordinary strength in dire circumstances.. countless, countless claims of these fantastic feats are all over the internet and in papers and span generations and every country... so I guess everyone is a liar?

    --
    When you dislike the human race as much as I do, Karma:Bad is inevitable lol.
    1. Re:I believe by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      so I guess everyone is a liar?

      Yup, that pretty much covers it. Liars, or people who are too dim to understand how their own physiology can mess with their perceptions of what's happening to them, near them, or in incorrectly remembered past moment.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    2. Re:I believe by NuKe_MoNgOoSe · · Score: 1

      Sceptic, you may be right you may be equally wrong. You come armed with science and fact and logic and sure it all looks good on paper, in books and journals and the like. I come armed with with a single idea that it is smart to question everything. All through history things which were accepted as being fact were opposed by people who sought another answer disproving the former and creating what would be new fact. The earth is square vs the earth is round. The sun rotates around the earth vs the earth rotates around the sun.. On a grander scale it is not at all a fantastic possibility that everything we know at this moment is not subject to the same scrutiny. Years from now something like telekinesis or precognition might not be fantastic, it may be proven using science and... as long as it then sits comfortably explained, and categorized and its rules and limitations are defined only then will it be accepted. Scientists will reach an impass when they realize that some things like time, may not have limitations.

      --
      When you dislike the human race as much as I do, Karma:Bad is inevitable lol.
    3. Re:I believe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are more than six billion people in this world. If .01% of them are liars, that's 600,000 liars. If each one of them makes just a few false reports, that's millions of false reports. Not every report is necessarily false, but most sensible analysis says that for pretty much any rare phenomenon that could potentially be real (take alien abduction, for example), even if it actually is real chances are pretty good that the vast majority of reports of it are made up.

    4. Re:I believe by KermodeBear · · Score: 1

      Coming armed with facts and logic is the best way to go - as long as you're not completely blinded by them. Everything has an explanation; it's just a matter of finding it, which can be very difficult. Just because the explanation is not obvious or cannot be found doesn't mean that an event didn't happen.

      Atlantis is mentioned by quite a few historical records. We can't find it. Does that mean that it never existed, or does it mean that it existed at one time and we just can't find it?

      The 12/12/2012 date being generated by multiple cultures all around the world before they could have had contact with each other - just coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. We can't explain that one either, but it is still there.

      It really irks me when Super Logic Science Types come along and that that X or Y isn't possible because of this scientific theory or this line of logic. If everyone in history went around saying "That isn't possible" instead of "How could that be possible" or "How can this be made possible" then we wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced as we are today. Skepticism is healthy and good, but far too many Super Logic Science Types have nothing but disdain for anything a little "weird".

      --
      Love sees no species.
    5. Re:I believe by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Super Logic Science Types have nothing but disdain for anything a little "weird".

      No, Super Logic Science Types love weird stuff. What they don't love is being asked to believe that what makes weird stuff happen is magical supernatural hocus pocus stuff that requires a break in causality or a capricious universe that has a personality and some sort of personal axe to grind with certain people based on what they think or whether they burn the right sacrifice and wave their hands around in the right way.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    6. Re:I believe by NuKe_MoNgOoSe · · Score: 1

      Exactly! I know there are people who subscribe to similar ideologies like my own. I just dont believe in fact, humans are flawed, were easily lead and controlled by people we see as being superior in intellect we quickly buy into things which appear to make sense when explained logically. I submit that even people of apparent higher intellect are just as capable of being wrong as a fool. I could be wrong, I may be right.. I am not ignorant enough to say MY way is the right way, while constantly being confronted with... Your way is wrong because here are the FACTS. Facts are man made and imperfect and constantly disproven even if it takes a hundred years. So where is the solidarity in factual evidence?

      --
      When you dislike the human race as much as I do, Karma:Bad is inevitable lol.
    7. Re:I believe by m50d · · Score: 1
      Electrical activity shows we only use a small percentage of our brain at any given time and there are regions of the brain that medical science has no idea what they are for.

      That's simply false.

      It is not so far fetched to believe that the logical rules of this world cannot be bent or even broken.

      Yes it is. Those rules get tested trillions of times every single day - and they've never come up wrong yet.

      We are just to stubborn to let go of the linear and hard-angled concepts, the rules that allow us to explain and categorize everything in our life.

      As you said yourself, " The world is more interesting believing in shit like this.. same with aliens and ghost and the after life, god and jesus". It's not stubbornness that stops us believing these things, it's the fact that they're not true.

      --
      I am trolling
    8. Re:I believe by Tar-Alcarin · · Score: 1

      You "don't believe in fact"?
      Does that mean you deny all knowledge, and are basically living a Descartian world, where the only thing you accept as truth/fact is that you exist?
      So when you exit your second story flat, you're as likely to do it via the window as the door?
      Or perhaps you deny the existence of the wall and just go straight through that?

      I know I'm trolling right here, but I'm trying to make a point.
      It seems to me, that you're asserting that if science doesn't learn the absolute truth, it is worthless.
      That is wrong.

      All knowledge we have, is empirical. Our view of the world, is not the actual world, but the world as perceived through our senses, which we know deceive us all the time.
      We need something else than our fallible senses, perceptions and preconceptions to understand the world.
      Science, and the methods surrounding that idea, is simply our best way of gaining knowledge, and has been for hundreds of years.

      When new evidence comes to light, science adjusts its views. That is how knowledge evolves.
      Thus, "facts" as you state (by which I think you actually mean "knowledge in general"), are not absolute, and what we "knew" earlier may be different today.
      And there are differences between facts (e.g. the sum of degrees in all three corners of a triangle is 180) and theories (e.g. the theory of gravity).

      Facts in themselves are not man made, they are merely discovered by us.
      I don't think there are too many actual facts known, outside the sciences of math and maybe physics.
      The remainder of our knowledge is based largely on theories.

      Theories are merely models of how we think the world works. The difference between a scientific theory and how we use the term "theory" in everyday life, is (among other things, I'm sure) that a scientific theory is testable and disprovable. The fact that it is disprovable, gives us reason to trust its validity, because after many tests of a given theory, if it still hasn't been disproven, the likelyhood of it being true, grows. Strong, well-proven theories, become foundations for new theories, and our system of knowledge grows. Some theories are so well-proven and interconnected with other theories, that we simply accept them as facts. That does not mean they are facts.

      A short, but imperfect example is Newton's theory of gravity. This theory works well for most applications, and as such is a useful model in many cases. There are, however, cases (such as when doing calculations on star-size gravity-fields), where you instead have to use Einstein's theory of relativity in order to get more accurate answers. This does not mean Newton was completely wrong, or that his theory is somehow worthless.

      Yes, it's incredibly naïve to think that what we "know" today, is the absolute truth. Actually, we know that it most likely isn't the absolute truth.
      Whether or not it is a good enough approximation (or model) of the truth is a rather more interesting question.
      That is; can we live with the mistakes and miscalculations we undoubtedly are making every day?

      For my part, the answer is unequivocally yes.
      Science is a difficult concept to fathom, but in all honesty, I can't think of any better approach to learning truths.

      If I may offer you some advice: You'd do well (as would many, many others) to learn a bit about the foundations of science, and the philosophy of science. The people who made the foundations of science, were largely philosophers, searching for a means to learn "the truth." It is a subject which I myself found immensely interesting and rewarding to learn about.

    9. Re:I believe by NuKe_MoNgOoSe · · Score: 1

      They are not true..? That because you stubbornly hold onto ignorance. There are no facts, there are only products of human perception. Things are the way they are because that is the way we perceive them. The only fact which is truth is that we do not know anything for sure. It is easy to say that because something is repeatedly tested that it is the truth. It is possible that it is true only because a underlying unknown is remaining constant. You change that unknown and you change the outcome of a otherwise predictable conclusion.. I am not surprised at peoples counter to my comments. I am obviously a minority when it comes to my ideology. I have taken philosophy, science and religious studies in university and my theories are a patchwork of everything I have taken from those studies.. In no way do I think I am right, that would indicate a absolute, I just believe my theory is as valid as any other.

      --
      When you dislike the human race as much as I do, Karma:Bad is inevitable lol.
  23. I was a Precog by Herkum01 · · Score: 1

    When I 10 years old, there was a commercial that said that if you roll a 6-sided die 60 times and you correctly guessed the results more than 10 times you were precognitive. Well I guess correctly 11 times, so there are your scientific results. Now I move into my new career as a stock market analyst.

    1. Re:I was a Precog by socsoc · · Score: 1

      Do you work for JT Marlin?

    2. Re:I was a Precog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, statically speaking, dice are more accurate than stock brokers. Of course, this fails to account for the fact that the broker gets paid even if you lose money.

  24. Precognition? No way... by mswhippingboy · · Score: 1, Funny

    Most people I encounter even have trouble with "postcognition". Yea, I'm looking at you Sarah Palin!

    --
    Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
    1. Re:Precognition? No way... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Most people I encounter even have trouble with "postcognition". Yea, I'm looking at you Sarah Palin!

      I was thinking, actually, that all of the people (including Palin) who predicted that Obama would turn out to be less or different or worse than the imaginary character that millions of people thought they were votiing for ... that that shows a certain level of cognition that a whole lot of post-election-coginition is allowing other people to realize they'd done something silly.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  25. And that's skepticism, everybody by JamesP · · Score: 1

    Make an article with a "forbidden word" or a "forbidden topic" or even something a little bit different from something "that everybody knows" (e.g. gastric ulcera) and it's immediately wrong.

    Remember guys, next time a crackpot says "oh but they laughed at Einstein as well", IT'S YOUR FAULT

    --
    how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    1. Re:And that's skepticism, everybody by geekoid · · Score: 1

      wrong, wrong, wrong.

      No, you need to do a good study. That's all. This isn't one. UIt's really that simple.

      Yes if you come out with something that's bizarre or counter to consensus you need strong evidence; which is only gathered by good science.

      You should probably note the gastric ulcer was a lucky guess. He had no slid evidence or science behind it. In fact his reasoning was wrong. His conclusion was lucky.

      Welcome to broken clock syndrome.

      It's like if I say "I say four geese land in a park, so that means there will be an airline crash, and then there happens to be an airline crash. Then saying it was the geese that knew it was going to happen and not random chance.
      And the should have laughed at Einstein. They were right to. He responded with proof. Then they stopped laughing.

      Very few people actually laughed him. They just wanted proof. Which he showed mathematically, and then alter when the experiments could be done, they where verified from those experiments.

      Yes, that is skepticism, demanding good scientific evidence; which this paper does not show.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  26. Reminds me of a recent Slashdot article by bigsexyjoe · · Score: 1

    http://science.slashdot.org/story/11/01/02/1244210/Why-Published-Research-Findings-Are-Often-False If you read this piece it talks about a "decline effect." Basically research that gets published has positive results to report and conforms to established opinion. However, further study shows that the effects aren't as strong as before. It talks about research showing pre-cognition before, but later be disproven. I think it's just fine to publish work in journals on pre-cognition, if the work was done in a scientific way. The only reason not to is because it doesn't conform to established opinion. If it's a false positive, it'll not be replicated and we'll forget about it. If it stands the test of time then we'll realize that there is pre-cognition of some sort but a mundane explanation will be found. After all, your brain is a sort of pre-cognition machine. I have a pretty good idea of what is going to happen in my life today. Don't you?

  27. Dupe? by AntEater · · Score: 1

    Is this a dupe? I'd swear I had read this article before.

    --
    Alex, I'll take keybindings not used by Emacs for $400....
  28. Fuck NY times and their cookie wall by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't expect to see me on the other side...

    Why do so many e-publications insist on killing themselves?

  29. Good for JPSP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    When I was a PhD student at one of the top 3 psychology programs, I made it a hobby to study the statistics used in psych papers that made it into Science and Nature. Without fail, each was a huge mess, well below any reasonable standard of science, let alone honesty.

    If JPSP is going to accept poor methodology, it might as well accept this paper. Otherwise it's using the prior probability of the conclusion as a proxy for actual statistical analysis. The paper posted by 246o1 essentially points out that once the prior is taken into account, the evidence in the paper is extremely weak. That's a good point, but it's valid for nearly all psychological papers, so instead of making an ad hoc point here, why not raise the standards of evidence to include explicitly modeling the prior?

    Somewhat amusingly, the papers that make it into the highest level journals (e.g. Science and Nature) are those that make the most surprising claims (babies have an innate sense of morality?!) and hence those advocating hypotheses with lower prior probability. So essentially the evidence for the claims in the more prestigious journals is weaker.

    1. Re:Good for JPSP by symes · · Score: 1

      Sadly, I agree. Psychology is dying. Not because there's not a lot of potentially interesting research to be done, more because psychologists are increasingly both nepotistic and unable to analyse their way out of a card board box. Yet at the same time we should perhaps be thankful for the science of psychology. Imagine what would happen if all those psychologists tried to do something useful in the world! We'd have a lot more Wakefield/Lancet fiascos, for sure. Returning to the point at hand, my advice has always been to research and accurately describe methods and analytic strategy way before any data collection has begun - instead psychology has become the science of finding the test that provides the significant result, damn the consequences. That said, surprising results with scant evidence can be very useful at times as they can motivate better designed studies that really do find something of interest. So long as people are honest about their findings and are not trying to fudge the issue, we are ok. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with announcing that chewing the bark of some tree cures headaches in a sample of three.

    2. Re:Good for JPSP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm the author of the parent comment. I think accurately describing methods and analytic strategy is a solid idea, but sadly is never practiced. I would even settle for (a) only analyzing large datasets (so essentially all results are "significant") and (b) reporting effect size in useful units rather than standardizing. For (b), I mean something like "Participants in the control condition answered on average 4 fewer questions correctly" rather than "Participants in the control condition performed significantly less well (p But I think fundamentally (at least at my school) the issue was that people wanted to publish and be famous more than they wanted to do science. I sat through many many lab meetings where the focus was essentially "my current study's data say X, let's find out how to design a study that says Y". At least twice research by my good friends that was considered substandard even by the faculty at my school was written up in the New York Times and posted on Slashdot. It's a shame because there are many interesting research topics in psychology.

  30. maybe... by TheCarp · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Maybe this is a hack. They say he has a sense of humor.... think of this... he did design his studies well, at least the ones that I have read about. The effects of this "time leaking" are fairly small. Perhaps the entire point...is to make a point about statistics.

    Added bonus? Put the ESP issue to bed. Him doing this, and specifically doing it so publicly and getting it passed peer review and publication, ENSURES that these studies are going to be replicated by numerous people, for the next several years. That, in and of itself, could produce enough evidence against ESP to really put the issue to bed :)

    Say what you want about his paper, the effects reported are as large as many "well accepted" study results. Which may be the scariest part of all.

    That said, I am no ESP believer (that may be obvious) but, some of the statements that are made against it are ridiculous too. "Why aren't people winning the lottory with their perfect precognition". The effects he is talking about here are on the order of a few percentage points better than random... which is more than the house advantage at many casino games (assuming optimal play)

    -Steve

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  31. Erotic Pictures a Necessary Element by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why settle for just 1M? Play the lottery for a few weeks and you don't even have to bother writing an article to be rich.

    So I realize a lot of people aren't going to read the article but here's the meaty parts for you statistics snobs (and really, the Bayes folks are going to be all over this one):

    Across all 100 sessions, participants correctly identified the future position of the erotic pictures significantly more frequently than the 50% hit rate expected by chance: 53.1%, t(99) = 2.51, p = .01, d = 0.25.3 In contrast, their hit rate on the nonerotic pictures did not differ significantly from chance: 49.8%, t(99) = -0.15, p = .56. This was true across all types of nonerotic pictures: neutral pictures, 49.6%; negative pictures, 51.3%; positive pictures, 49.4%; and romantic but nonerotic pictures, 50.2%. (All t values < 1.) The difference between erotic and nonerotic trials was itself significant, tdiff(99) = 1.85, p = .031, d = 0.19.

    There's a lot more about eliminating random number generators (by using this little guy) leading to prediction as well as running more tests where they are asked to pick a preference of two identical images. The most interesting part is that these results seemed to hinge on pornography. The individuals only exhibited this "precognition or premonition" when they were picking erotic images or rewarded with erotic images (albeit from the International Affective Picture System).

    The skeptic in me is very pleased and excited about this part of the paper:

    Accordingly, the experiments have been designed to be as simple and transparent as possible, drawing participants from the general population, requiring no instrumentation beyond a desktop computer, taking fewer than 30 minutes per session, and requiring statistical analyses no more complex than a t test across sessions or participants.

    Grad students across the country: get to work!

    But you would have to have the lottery involve some sort of erotic pictures containing the known numbers in order for this edge to be garnered. Which would be impossible unless the lotteries changed how they worked. Maybe play blackjack with a set of playboy cards? :-)

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Erotic Pictures a Necessary Element by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      There are only seventeen types of pornographic troll comments here in the recent history of Slashdot, and most of them are goatse. Therefore I predict that the third pornographic troll comment to appear seven stories from now will be a goatse. Further, there seems to be a rise in a goatse bot that can't spell which is supplanting classical troll phrasing.*

      * Statistics not properly peer reviewed. However, I predict that it is too much work for anyone to properly disprove this comment. Therefore I will get some kind of Heterogenous Mod including one flamebait and one funny.

      ** If this is true, it would then deserve an Informative Mod. If this post does not then receive an Informative Mod, that would indicate non-random negative reinforcement applied deliberately in disregard of Mod guidelines.

      --
      My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
    2. Re:Erotic Pictures a Necessary Element by Peeteriz · · Score: 1

      Haven't read the paper, don't know the sample size involved and experiment details, and don't have the time to run the math right now, but it looks like the numbers shown in your post would still support the null hypothesis that there is no precognition effect, so entirely opposite conclusions should be drawn from the same data.

    3. Re:Erotic Pictures a Necessary Element by geekoid · · Score: 1

      So the idea of all the erotic activities I'll be having with hot chicks after I win the lottery doesn't count?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    4. Re:Erotic Pictures a Necessary Element by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Erotic pictures as a necessary element would not at all be uprising if the hypothesis that precognition exists is real.

      There's little stronger evolutionary pressure than sexual selection. If nature can take advantage of fairly complicated quantum mechanics processes through evolution, it's not a huge stretch to imagine that if there were such a thing as precognition, it would have been created by natural selection, and a great path to go down discovering a precognition effect would be something sexual in nature.

      If they do a confirmatory test with 2000 samples by all means it should be the one with erotic images.

      I'd sign up, but hey porn is free on the intarwebs, so why bother :-P

    5. Re:Erotic Pictures a Necessary Element by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Promise yourself that, if you win the lottery, you'll buy a strip club and hang out there for a year. The strippers will be required to have body paint with your winning numbers on them.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    6. Re:Erotic Pictures a Necessary Element by silverglade00 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but then we wouldn't need Maury to find out who the father is.

  32. Something like this must happen from time to time by pentadecagon · · Score: 2

    Across all 100 sessions, participants correctly identified the future position of the erotic pictures significantly more frequently than the 50% hit rate expected by chance: 53.1%

    It's pretty easy to come up with significant results in this field: Just do a sufficiently large number of experiments, and you will inevitably come across some significant results. This works for any definition of significance, though of course it's easier for low standards.

  33. Precog beats statistics analyst? by Yaddoshi · · Score: 1

    They don't NEED to be a statistical analysis expert if they already know what the results are going to be ... in advance.

  34. Not a surprise... by njvack · · Score: 1

    Disclaimer: I have not read the original paper.

    This is really not a big surprise. The researcher has probably run many, many experiments. Many of them doubtless turned up nothing. But, by chance alone, an experiment has a 5% chance of showing an effect with 95% confidence -- that's what p < .05 means. It's like rolling a natural 20. If he's run, say, 100 experiments over the years, he should have something around 5 rather convincing results to show for his efforts.

    Next, hundreds of other researchers request his materials and run the same experiments and... shock! A bunch of them show the exact same effect! Now, not only has one research lab demonstrated evidence for ESP, but the study has been successfully replicated by researchers around the world!

    All of this, of course, is just by chance.

    And really, you see this all the time in other fields (at least, in the fields I work in). It's just very vey very very very easy to convince yourself that the reason your earlier experiments didn't work out was that you made a mistake, and the reason this one did was that you did everything perfectly.

    A few years ago, there was an excellent essay in PLOS One Why Most Published Research Findings Are False about these (and more insidious) effects. Should be required reading for scientists.

  35. Journal Article On Precognition Sparks Outrage... by knewter · · Score: 5, Funny

    The headline SO should have been:

    Journal Article On Precognition Sparks Outrage BEFORE IT'S PUBLISHED.

    That is all. I expect more out of an editor.

    --
    -knewter
  36. Sort of by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    I read this paper more than a month ago after finding it on the firehose http://slashdot.org/submission/1389056/Is-this-evidence-that-we-can-see-the-future

  37. Lack of statistical expertise you say? by Burnhard · · Score: 0

    It's a shame the same people don't apply their enormous wits to Climate Science, especially if the complaint is a lack of statistics expertise in the review process. Please mod me troll. Thanks.

  38. Surprise, surprise, surprise. by TheHornedOne · · Score: 1

    We all knew this would be the outcome, right?

  39. Obligatory answers: by Falkentyne · · Score: 0

    That's what she said
    Your mom saw this coming (points to self)
    Yeah but did you see this coming?! (Makes punching and/or aggressive body sway movement)

  40. Re:Something like this must happen from time to ti by Hatta · · Score: 2

    Exactly. One out of every twenty "statistically significant" effects (P value =.05) is due to random chance.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  41. No subscription with this link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Strip the "http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=" part from the link, and voila, you can pee(r) through the registerwall.

  42. I saw this by WillyWanker · · Score: 0

    I saw this coming, but no one listened.

    1. Re:I saw this by thbigr · · Score: 1

      I knew some one was going to say that!

      --
      Come the revolution, the Bourgeois, Capitalistic, "A PARKING STICKER HOLDERS", will be first against the wall!
  43. The problem with this article is it will cause by jolyonr · · Score: 3, Funny

    Mass Hysteria, Dogs and Cats living together, etc.

    --


    Please read my Canon EOS tech blog at http://www.everyothershot.com
    1. Re:The problem with this article is it will cause by telarus · · Score: 1

      "The Earth quakes and the Heavens rattle; the beasts of nature flock together and the nations of men flock apart,; volcanoes usher up heat while elsewhere water becomes ice and melts; and then on other days it just rains." - Malaclypse the Younger

  44. I have to say... by jollyreaper · · Score: 0

    They should have seen that coming.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
  45. How about something really amazing by tpstigers · · Score: 1

    Like retrocognition - the ability to perceive that something has already happened.

  46. Lotteries by wonkavader · · Score: 1

    Maybe someone can correct me, here.

    I suspect (strongly) that if you have a 3% edge over everyone else, you'll still lose at the lottery. I think the odds in the lottery are so badly kiltered against you that even a real, solid 3% edge would leave you a loser.

    That's NOT true of any casino games. Take 3% to a casino and you'd leave a millionaire in short order. (No, wait. Actually you'd get bounced in short order and barred from the casino.)

    1. Re:Lotteries by PB8 · · Score: 1

      Add a mere 3% edge in detecting when bouncers would be sent to bounce may not be sufficient to prevent odds reducing brain damage over repeated attempts.

    2. Re:Lotteries by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      No, wait. Actually you'd get bounced in short order and barred from the casino.

      Not if you play smart. Casinos know what you could possibly be cheating at.

      If you have a 3%, your best bet would be to go to Vegas and play roulette, is very close to even odds at about 48%, so can nudge to 51% and which it is not possible to cheat at, and the casino is not watching for 'cheaters' in any statistical sense. They are watching for people lying about their bets, and the couper and the person being in on it together, but there's nothing that could possible tell them that someone is winning 51% of the time, or even even flag it if it did notice. Individual people win 51% of the time all the time. Probably 30% of the people walk away from roulette having won 51% of the time. They don't bar people for that, that would be horrible publicity.

      Although I'm not really sure what a '3% edge' actually means. Is that 3% in all dimensions, or just one? Is it 47/53% if you pick red vs black, or it is +3% that it will land on a certain specific slot, or what, exactly? If they have a 3% extra chance of getting the color right, and a 3% extra chance of getting the odd/even right, and 3% extra chance of getting the number right, and a 3% extra chance of getting the group of four right...they've got like a 70% of getting everything right. Something is really screwy here.

      Assuming it's +3% to a specific 50/50 axis: The problem is, unless you're starting with a lot of money, it's going to be very slow. Safety-wise, you should only bet about 5% of your money at once, and even that's a little risky. This means on 100 spins, you will make 5% more money.

      As each roulette spin tends to take about a minute, in an hour you've made 60 spins, which means you've earn between 3% of your seed money. Which is an awesome hourly rate if you walked in with $100,000 and made $3000. It's a pretty shitty one if you walked in with $100 and made $3. Hell, with the price of a plane ticket and hotel room, it's a pretty shitty rate of $30 an hour...you're looking at 4 hours a day just to cover room and board!

      Technically, craps is closer odds, and sometimes you can place side bets exactly at odds, although only after placing another bet at slightly worse odds, but a) it's easier to cheat at, so they might assume you are cheating, and b) it's insanely complicated. Although, as an added bonus, as there are a lot of really really stupid bets, they're used to some people 'slowly losing' while others lose very quickly, so are less likely to notice someone 'slowly winning'. (Unlike roulette, where all bets are 'reasonable', they are within 5% of breaking even so everyone 'slowly loses'. Well, unless they deliberately bet all their money.) Also, craps is much faster, so might be worth learning...just make sure you place each bet clearly and keep your hands away so you don't get accused of cheating.

      Do not, under any circumstances, play blackjack, which will get you banned. Although, believe it or not, automatic card-counter detectors probably wouldn't notice. All counting cards does is tell you when you can, statistically, win, so detector systems notice people who join or leave suspiciously, or bet high (When they can win) and low (When they can't) suspiciously. If you just have a extra 3% chance of winning, period, and don't change your bet, they probably won't notice, but don't risk it. Alternately, you can go to Atlantic City, where casinos cannot ban you for winning, period. (They avoid blackjack card counters by reshuffling the deck after every hand.)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    3. Re:Lotteries by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Although, to mention blackjack...if you have a 3% chance of guessing the next card, you have a way better chance of winning than an extra 3%. Especially if, when you're wrong, you're 'close'. Alternately, you could know the next card with 1005 assurance, and still not win the hand.

      This is what I mean by the '3%' being a little screwy. Foreknowledge 3% of the time does not equal winning 3% more of the time.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    4. Re:Lotteries by wonkavader · · Score: 1

      DavidTC, that was WELL worth the read. Thank you!

  47. Tired of being tracked? by McD · · Score: 1

    I'm sure it's old news to most of us, but the un-encrusted URL buried in there (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/06/science/06esp.html) doesn't require a cookies, or a free login, if you use something like RefControl for Firefox, and tell www.nytimes.com that news.google.com sent you.

    --
    "Given the pace of technology, I propose we leave math to the machines and go play outside." -- Calvin
  48. ESP by Bob-taro · · Score: 1

    I wonder if there is a correlation between posters who defend ESP and posters who post without first reading the article.

    --
    Prov 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
  49. just predict by ylt · · Score: 1

    The guy could have simply predicted if his theory would be proven correct using ESP!

  50. holy hell, who gave you mod points by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

    "Informative"? http://www.timecube.com/

    funny story, that site is actually blocked by our firewall, filed under "racism and hate"...

    1. Re:holy hell, who gave you mod points by prionic6 · · Score: 1

      Informative gives karma, although I don't need it and appreciate "Funny" more.

    2. Re:holy hell, who gave you mod points by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

      I know, I know, modding for justice and all that. It just made me LOL to see the word "informative" ascribed to a blatant Timecube reference.

  51. Concur. by Peter+Trepan · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's a compelling model that addresses a lot of tricky questions very neatly.

    For instance, if you combine this with many-worlds theory, you can eliminate the paradox of free will - that is, when I make a decision, what internal process prompted me to make that decision? And what prompted that? And so on.

    If you think of the universe as a static object that at every instant in time (or "the fourth dimension," if you prefer) branches off into multiple possible realities, then you can think of yourself as having made every possible decision, but being able to remember only one, because the state of your brain in this particular branch of the decision tree is only consistent with one past.

    It works the same way as the anthropic principle. Why is the universe perfect for supporting life? Because if it wasn't, you wouldn't have asked. Why did I make that particular decision? Because you're thinking about the decision from the perspective of a universe in which that particular decision was made. This also explains why consciousness appears to have a special place in quantum collapse. It's really an illusion, and there is no "collapse" - you have just chosen a particular viewpoint that is only consistent with one specific observation.

    Problem is, this hypothesis may be nondisprovable.

    --

    Step into a huge movement. Don't Tread In Me.

    1. Re:Concur. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      The universe isn't perfect for having life, in fact a vast majority of the universe would kill life.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Concur. by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Problem is, this hypothesis may be nondisprovable.

      Indeed. Which makes it non-scientific, as science needs to be falsifiable.

      I also should point out that I don't claim the 4-D model is wrong, but that it is just a model and as such inherently limited in its applicability. If you assume no free will, then it makes perfect sense. However there is no good reason to discount free will. An other thing that clearly exists, yet is not subject to any sound physical explanation is consciousness. Yet it clearly exists and is at least experienced by me (you may all be Zombies, i.e. mindless automata ;-)

      This also means that the 4D model cannot be used to proof or disprove anything. It merely serves as a better explanation for a limited aspect of reality and it does that well.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    3. Re:Concur. by pugugly · · Score: 1

      The problem with the principle of falsifiability is that we're talking about a matter of statistical data.
      Take a set of seemingly balanced six-sided dice.

      Proving these dice are loaded, from *statistical data* is in principle unscientific - It's statistically *possible* to roll 6's until the thermal death of the universe - and indeed the next six is never all that unlikely.

      Yet, at some point you have to make a decision that either
      A) despite no physical evidence that the dice are unfair, something is skewing your results, or
      B) without physical evidence of a mechanism to skew the results, there is a 1 in 6 chance to roll a 6 on the next roll, and no further statistical evidence will ever convince you to treat it otherwise.

      Personally, these dice seem rigged, but from what I can see, a lot of skeptics regarding the more statistically verified variants of ESP seem to have opted for B.

      Oh look, a six . . .

      Pug

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
    4. Re:Concur. by Burpmaster · · Score: 1

      There are no statistically verified variants of ESP. Statistics only rules out coincidence, and doesn't positively confirm the mechanism by which someone was able to pass a test. When someone can beat the odds consistently, it always turns out that they are cheating in some way.

      If you know of some real form of ESP, you can easily win a million dollars. So why don't you?

    5. Re:Concur. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Perfect" in this case refers to the physical laws, not matter (or lack thereof) in certain places.

      It's quite easy to create models where some fundamental aspects (strength of the strong nuclear force etc) are slightly changed, and it's very rare to find a set of laws that allow atoms to exist, bodies to orbit each other and so forth.

    6. Re:Concur. by Prune · · Score: 1

      Problem is, this hypothesis may be nondisprovable.

      Popper's turning in his grave.

      --
      "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
    7. Re:Concur. by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      It works the same way as the anthropic principle. Why is the universe perfect for supporting life? Because if it wasn't, you wouldn't have asked.

      NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not the anthropic principle. The Anthropic Principle states that any explanation for the universe has to allow for the creation of human life, because we are known to exist. It does not give an answer to "why is intelligent life sustainable in this universe?"

      The proper way to use the Anthropic Principle in this situation is, "why does this universe sustain intelligent life?" Answer from the Anthropic Principle is: "I don't know why, but even if the chances are minute that it would, it did."

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    8. Re:Concur. by Sabriel · · Score: 1

      "This also explains why consciousness appears to have a special place in quantum collapse. It's really an illusion, and there is no "collapse" - you have just chosen a particular viewpoint that is only consistent with one specific observation."

      I'm imagining someone learning to consciously choose improbable viewpoints (e.g. a universe in which they win the lottery twice in a row). And what happens when two such people strive for opposing viewpoints - do they each, from the viewpoint of the other, fail? Or what if one fails from both viewpoints? Possible thesis, the elasticity of consensual reality and its applications to gambling, immortality and extreme sports. :)

      (and then there's choosing alternate viewpoints, e.g. a universe in which you didn't miss that train)

    9. Re:Concur. by Internetuser1248 · · Score: 1

      So I suppose the existence of a million dollar challenge for irrefutably disproving the existence of paranormal phenomena and the subsequent failure of all attempts to win it would prove that all paranormal phenomena are real?

      The amazing Randi practises pseudoscience, please don't attempt to use his work in a rational scientific discussion.

    10. Re:Concur. by Burpmaster · · Score: 1

      Your hypothetical is ridiculous. If I could win a million dollars just by proving that someone's prediction ability is equal to random chance, then I can and would win that challenge easily.

      So I don't know what it'd mean if nobody could disprove paranormal phenomena. It seems like a logical contradiction to me, much like speculating what it would mean if 2 + 2 were 5. If 1 + 1 is still 2, 2 + 1 is still 3, and 3 + 1 is still 4, then 2 + 2 = 2 + 1 + 1 = 3 + 1 = 4 = 5. We have a contradiction and everything is true (but also false at the same time).

    11. Re:Concur. by Internetuser1248 · · Score: 1

      Of course as with Randi's challenge, the challenge would have to be limited to a specific set of disciplines. Let's say ESP, dowsing, telepathic communication, telekinesis for an example list. It is also not sufficient to do as you suggest and simply prove the lack of ability in a single person. If you could prove that my skills in brain surgery are insufficient to cure any illness that would not be evidence that the field of brain surgery is invalid. I am not a brain surgeon, even if I claim to be. So how would you go about disproving any of these things? Claiming that a failure to disprove these things for a million dollar prize is evidence of their veracity is logically equivalent to claiming that failure to prove them for a million dollars is evidence that they are invalid. I am by no means arguing that any of these disciplines are real science, merely disputing that a million dollar televised prize is real science.

    12. Re:Concur. by pugugly · · Score: 1

      Actually statistically it's pretty obvious that either 'something is happening' or, alternatively, we don't truly understand statistics and probability - a problem in which frankly I consider 'psychic ability' to be the lesser of two messy solutions.

      Pug

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
    13. Re:Concur. by Burpmaster · · Score: 1

      Of course as with Randi's challenge, the challenge would have to be limited to a specific set of disciplines. Let's say ESP, dowsing, telepathic communication, telekinesis for an example list. It is also not sufficient to do as you suggest and simply prove the lack of ability in a single person.

      Why not? In Randi's challenge, it's sufficient to prove the presence of an ability in a single person.

      If you could prove that my skills in brain surgery are insufficient to cure any illness that would not be evidence that the field of brain surgery is invalid.

      No, however if nobody anywhere ever was able to cure an illness with brain surgery, even when offered a huge incentive, that would show that brain surgery is invalid.

      I am not a brain surgeon, even if I claim to be. So how would you go about disproving any of these things?

      Same way Randi does. Observe brain surgeries and check if the outcome matches the claimed effects of the surgery and is different from what would happen with no surgery. If anyone can consistently meet this standard, then I've failed to disprove it and have in fact validated it.

      James Randi's standards work that way by necessity. If the claim is true, then the claimant will pass the test. That's what gives it its disproving power: through modus tollens, if the claimant doesn't pass the test, then the claim is not true.

      Claiming that a failure to disprove these things for a million dollar prize is evidence of their veracity is logically equivalent to claiming that failure to prove them for a million dollars is evidence that they are invalid.

      No, those are not equivalent. The nature of these claims is that they are trivially easy to demonstrate if true. If it's real, somebody will show off their supernatural power. If it's false, nobody can just casually show up and prove that. It's only the persistent failure to provide any confirming evidence that can discredit the claim.

      I am by no means arguing that any of these disciplines are real science, merely disputing that a million dollar televised prize is real science.

      Setting up a test that a real psychic could pass and a fake one could not, and seeing if they actually do pass it is science. It's a test that will go one way or another depending on the truth of the hypothesis being tested, and he's doing it in front of a ton of witnesses. If any supernatural ability is ever confirmed to be real, it will be a skeptic like James Randi that does it.

  52. Re:Something like this must happen from time to ti by minogully · · Score: 0

    Agreed, if I flip a coin only 100 times, it would be common to not have an exact 50/50 ratio of heads to tails. It's when you take the number of times you flip a coin higher and higher that you see a trend towards 0.5p

    Hopefuls see 53% and say that since it's not 50%, so there's proof of "ESP". Skeptics see that it's close to 50% and imagine that it would get closer as the number of trials increased, so there's no proof.

    Unfortunately, neither side will be able to convince the other.

  53. Lucky runs happen. Those they happen to stand out. by dazedNconfuzed · · Score: 1

    On a topological statistical equivalency...

    Last week I was explaining to my wife why it was her cousin always did so well at the casino. It’s not that she’s “a positive person, which attracts success in gambling” or any other warm-fuzzy explanation. Consider that over a long run of gambling, someone will have probabilistic periods of “good runs” and “bad runs”; likewise, among multiple people statistics dictate that there will be some who have a lifetime of “bad runs” and some who “have all the luck”. By sheer stupid chance, the cousin in question is getting a “lucky streak” – for now.

    Dragging this back to the subject...

    If you run a group of people thru ESP testing, you’ll find a few who “outperform” the others. Those who don’t are dismissed, while those who do are hailed as psychics. It is, indeed, just dumb luck. A few will, according to standard probabilistic statistics, by plain chance happen to make correct guesses, and do so in a long enough run to make it look convincing. The longer the run, the greater the imputed powers hailed; once the run of “good luck” ends, a lame excuse is imputed and the “psychic” forgotten.

    Couple the random good run with the human ability to cognitively perceive and process more information than is consciously recognized, and one appears to exceed the mere threshold of statistical significance. Compound a lucky run of good guesses with subconscious card-counting or other subtle cues indicating the reality of what is being guessed at, and the person is dubbed a psychic. Awareness + dumb luck != magic.

    --
    Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
  54. Insightful by ardle · · Score: 1
    Someone with such superpowers might be able to predict things like stock market crashes, resource-driven wars, despotism and oligarchy.

    If we have learnt anything from history, it's that we don't learn from history

    or something like that.

  55. Possible Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a good idea as to what this really is. It's not magical or mystical. I think the human brain takes the information it has at hand, and makes an inference as to what will happen based on what the available info says may happen. Sometimes it's correct, and it's called ESP. Other times it's wrong and hopefully it wasn't a life or death situation.

  56. Somebody's _dabbling_ in English by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 1

    Right at the end of the first page of this paper: "casino's make profit."

    *facepalm* Should I keep reading?

    --
    "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
  57. Re:Lucky runs happen. Those they happen to stand o by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't have any basis for making these statements at all. Bem is a respected researcher with an impeccable publication list stretching back decades. You have absolutely no clue whether all instances of precognitive phenomena are just "dumb luck". That's just a statement you're making that reflects your own belief. At least Bem has the integrity and openness of mind to look into the subject.

  58. even if it exists by merxete · · Score: 0

    We will never be able to prove ESP until we understand the brain better. And even then, science has it's limitations. I mean, if this exists, it seems this is one of the last things we will prove with the scientific method. So... I know it's not the complaint pointed out by cmdrtaco, but I think it's worth saying that this type of research is worthy and provocative, even in a scientific realm. If ESP was 100% it would easily be proven by that one person who has that ability. Clearly it's not. It may be 51, and not statistically stable, and even harder to measure in a controlled/contrived experiment.

  59. Rejection is rejected by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Link to the paper: http://dbem.ws/FeelingFuture.pdf
    Link to rebuttal: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1018886/Bem6.pdf

    Essentially the rebuttal fails because it ignores the possibility. If an experiment developed from a theory returns an unexpected or null result the theory can be dismissed. In absence of an actual null result the theory must be maintained.

    The author of the rebuttal does make some excellent points about the statistical analysis of the psi experiments, however, a quick analysis by myself of the data leads me to believe that neither the study nor the rebuttal make a convincing case either for or against.

    Time travel is relative. In other words an object is always moving forward in time relative to itself even when it is moving backwards in time relative to a different object. If an object, or energy, was incapable of traveling forwards in time relative to itself and backwards through time relative to a different object, or energy, you would pretty much need to pitch Einstein and modern theoretical physics.

    Time travel is theoretically possible so pre-cognition must be theoretically possible.

  60. "free will" requires precognition. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Free will, science and probably even all consciousness requires precognition. I'll let Daniel Dennett explain:

    http://www.closertotruth.com/video-profile/What-is-Free-Will-Daniel-C-Dennett-Part-1-of-2-/1340

  61. The mechanism for precognition is undefined by nido · · Score: 1

    The mechanism for pheromones was unknown until recently. Just because Science doesn't currently know how it works doesn't mean that it doesn't exist anyways.

    In the end, you build a consensus by presenting enough evidence that no one can argue with.

    What's interesting about the ESP experiments are how the experimenters' beliefs influence the experiment. If someone in the room believes that ESP ain't possible, the experiment won't work nearly as well as if the participants are neutral or supportive of the proposition.

    This makes it impossible to build a consensus. Those who "don't believe" precognition of any sort is possible do not experience it in their day-to-day lives, whereas those who do experience it regularly.

    Most people's future-seeing abilities usually take place in the dream state. Scoffers tend to forget their dreams, and are very good at ignoring their 'gut feelings'. A few months back I had a dream about someone getting a cat. Immediately upon awakening I knew who it was, but then promptly forgot. A week or two later my new girlfriend told me about having a "profound change in her life" over the weekend. Here's the diary I posted:

    My friend had gone out hiking/camping by herself over the weekend. At one point in the middle of the high desert she reached a fork in the road, and stopped to decide whether to turn or continue on her path. She got out of the car, and heard a noise from the brush. "Kitty?"

    It was so. A little kitten came out of the bush, looked terrified for a second, then ran straight for her. There were no dwellings for miles. She'd been trying to lure in a stray cat from her neighborhood. Kitty found himself a new home - I wonder how he got to be in just the right place at just the right time.

    -Prophetic Dreams

    People who are interested in precognition would do well to get Ingo Swann's Your Nostradamus Factor. Here's the opening paragraphs:

    Your Nostradamus Factor, by Ingo Swann

    Chapter 1: Jumping The Time Barrier

    Like many others, I've had good reasons during my life to assume that the future can be seen. But if I had any doubt it would have vanished as a result of an astonishing forty-five seconds when I found myself in Detmold, then in West Germany, in the spring of 1988.

    Detmold is near the beautiful Teutoburger Forest and a famous pre-Christian shrine, Horn-Externstein, which is a pile of towering rocks riddled with sonorous cavbes. Until the time of Charlemagne it is said that Nordic kings came to Horn-Externstein to consult seers about the future.

    I was invited to Detmold by Herr Manfred Himmel in April 1988 to give a series of lectures about psi research. This was Herr Himmel's fifth "esoteric" conference, and it was well attended by several hundred people. Herr Himmel was ardent about psychic matters, and the talks of his other spearkers were interesting to me. Some of these speakers were also practicing psychics who were busy giving individual "readings" and making predictions about the future.

    I was billed as the famous American superpsychic who had "astonished scientists" since my first formal laboratory experiments in 1970. But I have never given individual "readings," and I never made predictions about the future.

    Many of Herr Himmel's conference attendees were visibly disappointed that I did not give the expected readings and did not foresee the future. Although I had studied "prophecy" and predicting for many years and had even experienced some novel insights about it, I was well aware that most predictions turn out to be wrong. I felt I had a scientific reputation to protect, which would be damaged if I accumulated a list of erroneous predictions. Moreover, I didn't view myself as a future-seer in any professional sense, and I tho

    --
    Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
    www.teslabox.com
    1. Re:The mechanism for precognition is undefined by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      Those who "don't believe" precognition of any sort is possible do not experience it in their day-to-day lives, whereas those who do experience it regularly.

      It's called confirmation bias.

  62. Some other references on ESP work by billrp · · Score: 1

    As an FYI, there was US government classified work done for about 20 years at SRI, starting in the 1970s, with evidence of "remote viewing" published in Proceeding of the IEEE and Nature, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Targ

  63. Social psychology often lacks statistical rigor by codeAlDente · · Score: 1

    No one should be surprised that a paper in a social psychology journal lacks statistical validity. Social psychologists are not usually quantitatively inclined. Sure there may be exceptions, but fluff like this is often the rule, and it only gets noticed when the conclusion is of interest to the public.

    --
    He once inserted random mutations into his code, just so he could have the experience of debugging.
  64. who cares? by t2t10 · · Score: 2

    I looked at the paper. I don't believe the conclusions. But they seem to present all the necessary data so that you can do your own statistical analyses, and they offer to give you the software.

    I don't see any reason for people to get "outraged" over this. Publication in a peer reviewed journal is not a guarantee of correctness (in fact, probably the majority of peer reviewed publications contain significant errors), it merely means that the paper meets basic scientific standards in terms of approach and analysis.

    If there is an error in the methodology or results, then people should respond by publishing a paper pointing those out. That way, everybody can benefit from the discussion. So, that's where all those people who are "outraged" should channel their energy.

    1. Re:who cares? by Slutticus · · Score: 1

      If the statisticians at my company are any clue, misuse of p-values to conclude significance of effects is the most enraging thing that can happen to a statistician.
      I'm talking serious rage and fear for my life. These guys are f-ing crazy.

    2. Re:who cares? by buybuydandavis · · Score: 1

      If there is an error in the methodology or results, then people should respond by publishing a paper pointing those out.

      No. I've reviewed papers. It was part of my job to locate methodological errors, and recommend rejecting the paper until those errors were fixed.

    3. Re:who cares? by t2t10 · · Score: 1

      No. I've reviewed papers. It was part of my job to locate methodological errors, and recommend rejecting the paper until those errors were fixed.

      You quoted me out of context. What I was getting at in this context is: "If there is an error in the methodology or results after a paper has passed peer review, then people should respond by publishing a paper pointing those out." There is no point in getting upset at that point, nor does that mean that the reviewers didn't do their job.

      Reviewers should reject papers if they can identify methodological errors; it is not the reviewer's job to guarantee that the papers they review are correct.

    4. Re:who cares? by t2t10 · · Score: 1

      If the statisticians at my company are any clue, misuse of p-values to conclude significance of effects is the most enraging thing that can happen to a statistician.

      There are lots of ways in which people misuse p-values. However, on quick reading, I didn't see any obvious misuse here. They have large sample sizes and the effects are big enough to have been very unlikely to have occurred by chance. Care to point out where you think the misuse lies?

      I also think they must have done something wrong, but someone needs to explain what specifically it is they are supposed to have done wrong.

    5. Re:who cares? by buybuydandavis · · Score: 1

      There is no point in getting upset at that point, nor does that mean that the reviewers didn't do their job.

      Reviewers should reject papers if they can identify methodological errors; it is not the reviewer's job to guarantee that the papers they review are correct.

      Nobody can guarantee they won't make a mistake. But it still your job not to make them.

      If multiple reviewers failed to find methodological problems in the paper, the reviewing process failed, both individually, and institutionally.

      Obviously, if you publish papers with statistical analysis, it is the responsibility of the journal itself to make sure it has reviewers competent to review the paper, and it is the responsibility of reviewers to state what sections and conclusions of the paper they believe they are competent to review, and have reviewed.

      That responsibility is heightened for a paper claiming to find new effects completely at odds with everything we know of physics, and everything we've ever observed about human capabilities.

      The review was a spectacular failure from start to finish. Lots of people didn't do their jobs, but I have a lot more blame for the journal's review board than the reviewers themselves.

    6. Re:who cares? by t2t10 · · Score: 1

      If multiple reviewers failed to find methodological problems in the paper, the reviewing process failed, both individually, and institutionally.

      You're viewing journals as something that is supposed to give people a record of proven and accurate results. That view is, of course, total rubbish, both in what journals are for and what they actually accomplish.

      Journals are means of scientific communication, not a record of truth. Science would grind to a halt if the only thing people ever could say was proven correct.

      Furthermore, if your view were how journals operated, then they are failing completely because a large fraction of scientific articles contain errors.

      The purpose of a reviewer is not to determine absolute truth (which would be impossible), it is to determine whether a paper is interesting for a particular journal.

      A paper doesn't need to be right to be interesting. If this paper has a serious methodological flaw that three reviewers missed, other people are likely to make that mistake as well, and the discussion and response belongs into the publication record.

      The review was a spectacular failure from start to finish. Lots of people didn't do their jobs, but I have a lot more blame for the journal's review board than the reviewers themselves.

      Neither you nor anybody else has yet pointed out a specific problem with the paper. Merely calling into question the qualification of the reviewers is not enough. Either put up or shut up: where are those supposed statistical errors?

      What is a "spectacular failure" is the religious and unscientific approach to publications people like you take (and you're not alone). You try to achieve the unachievable, namely of turning scientific publications into gospel truth, instead of recognizing them for what they are: a means of communication, a place where discussions take place, and where it is OK to make errors.

  65. all that is fine, but by baubo · · Score: 1

    Where are the comments on the apparent psychic porn detection abilities of student experimental subjects?
    (from the article: A software program randomly posted a picture behind one curtain or the other — but only after the participant made a choice. Still, the participants beat chance, by 53 percent to 50 percent, at least when the photos being posted were erotic ones.)

  66. My study: by Sean_Inconsequential · · Score: 1

    I designed a study to test precognition and psychic ability, could people read my mind in the future before i knew what i would be thinking? It was quite an elaborate test to set up, and I wouldn't know if their predictions were correct until later on. My findings determined that many people (much higher than what we would expect) were indeed able to read my mind before i knew what I was going to be thinking. We found that this ability was heightened around mid-morning. Many of the predictions were shockingly similar, and, unlike many alleged "predictions," were very specific. Of course, with the nature of the study, I was unaware of the results until around noon while correlating the data i began thinking, as was predicted, that it was time for lunch and I was rather hungry.

  67. Cookies and Tea? by Spliffster · · Score: 1

    "The New York Times has an article (cookies and free subscription required) ..."

    I just got my cookie jar and what is this free subscription you are talking of?

  68. Lack of Faith by SmokeyRobot · · Score: 1

    "I find your lack of faith disturbing" -One who frequently broke the laws of Time and Space

  69. What an ass I am by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 1

    Such a triviality aside, it's actually a good paper.

    --
    "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
  70. Hey! First post! by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 1

    Wow, this is awesome! I never got first post before! The only thing that could ruin this is if everyone develops precognition and sees the next five or so hours of posts before mine!

  71. Re:AGW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remember that climat-ology is not climate science. Their statistical hypotheses assume not only that it is appropriate to think about in particularly narrow ways, but that they understand the meanings of those narrowings. If their modeling techniques are truly independent of the surrounding rhetoric, someone would be able to profitably adapt such techniques to generate substantial changes at local levels by poking anthropogenic carbon _as well as by poking some of the other variables that would be identified in the course of building a good model_. If the models cannot be decomposed in that manner, the extraordinary claim that a particular unified model of a massively complex dynamical system is sufficiently accurate and predictive had better be backed by extraordinary evidence before we risk the entire show on a field test.

    (Also, looking for simple mechanistic relationships in precognition and climate phenomena seems incredibly daft since we have good reason to suspect that they would be non-linear systems.)

  72. outrage is irrelevant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What truly matters is whether the data supports the thesis, and whether independent experiments confirm the first one. If yes, then the thesis was correct. If not, then it was incorrect. That's all.

  73. Re:AGW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I clicked on this article just to make that very comment. Thank you.

  74. You need to be an expert in statistical analysis? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Funny, being an expert in statistical analysis doesn't seem to be a requirement in the study of AGW.

    But, AGW and Precognition require about the same level of scientific rigor, so I guess it all evens out in the end after all.

  75. Better to publish than to suppress marginal data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think they did the right thing.
    If they hadn't published, that would be selective suppression of data, which would distort the statistics of future metastudies in the field....
    Suppression of negative results is quite a problem already in some fields.
    The important thing is they provided enough detail of the results and a well designed study for others to analyse the data how they find appropriate in context.

  76. Brains scans can predict decisions by up to 6 secs by cavebison · · Score: 1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM

    A brain scan shows activity which seems to pre-empt a conscious decision by up to 6 seconds, which sparks some interesting ideas. Firstly, it's proof of ESP. The machine is detecting a process of thought undetectable by normal human senses. Ironic that a machine can do it, reliably and repeatedly, before any so-called psychic can. Go machine.

    How and where do we actually "decide" certain things? The brain certainly initiates a lot - reflexes, emotional responses - before we can "decide" to have them. So how much of what we feel and do is "free will"? Or, does free will really reside way beyond the slim spectrum of what we perceive as "conscious thought"?

    Also ironic (or perhaps not) is that a scientific experiment like this raises these interesting metaphysical questions.

  77. What this means by jasper_amsterdam · · Score: 1

    This paper (in submission; written by a statistics expert) explains why this 'evidence' does not prove a success in precognition research, but instead demonstrates a problem in psychology statistical analyses: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1018886/Bem6.pdf disclaimer: though I'm not on the paper I am affiliated with the author.

    --
    Let's put the genes back in Genesis.