Slashdot Mirror
George RR Martin Finishes A Dance With Dragons
Lil'wombat writes "George RR Martin has completed his long awaited conclusion to the A Song of Ice and Fire series. A Dance with Dragons will be published on July 12, 2011. Let the celebrations begin! And everyone was worried that he was going to pull a Jordan."
I don't believe that this is the end... More books in the series are anticipated.
Dance with Dragons is the 4th of 7 planned books. It is not the conclusion to the series.
First Duke Nukem Forever and now this.
I'll echo someone I read a couple of days ago and say this is the longest wait for half of a book I've ever encountered.
Uh, "if it looks roughly mouse-shaped according to my infra-red sensitive pit, eat it"? --Chris Burke 09-08-10
1) The link says specifically that the book isn't done but it's close enough to done to give it a publication date
2) It's not the series conclusion. It's the 5th of 7 planned books that was originally supposed to be 3 books total :)
According to his own website, GRRM hasn't even finished it yet. I'm not believing anything about this book until I can buy it.
That it's not as disappointing as the last one..
Maybe it's just me, but it seemed like a great departure from his normal style (the bad guys actually think about what they're doing, which makes them interesting), and had the "bad guys" acting like they'd never encountered politics before in their lives.. Just had a few "belief no longer suspended" moments in it..
Hope this one goes back to the old "dark and gritty".. Victories are great and all, but in the earlier volumes, they were earned..
Do you mean not drawing the story to completion in a small number of books, or leaving a series unfinished by PASSING AWAY? I don't know in what sense you meant that phrase but that's kind of offensive, isn't it?
Brian Fundakowski Feldman
I loved the series until the whole Caitlyn-returns-from-the-dead-and-becomes-a-witch-queen incident. That was just ridiculous and smacked of one of his TV scripts. I will still read DWD though ...
The first LINE of TFA says " No. Sorry. Not done yet."
How the hell do you go from that to "hey it's done!"?
I mean come on. Even for Slashdot this is retarded.
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
I remember back in the day, as a young man full of optimism and energy, eagerly anticipating the second half of this marvelous novel.
Now at last I might take it in my wrinkled, trembling hands and gaze in wonder through rheumy eyes, ever so slightly before the reaper takes my withered husk from this world!
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Yes, and we still are. There are still at least 2 more books in the series that need to be written.
This book has had so many ridiculous setbacks and delays that it's become comical. How many times was book 4 rewritten, only to have become split (and disappointing)? And then it's another six years before book 5, which is simply the other half of book 4? According to him, he's already written some chapters from the next two books. Why? I understand the value of having notes for what's going to happen, but to take the time to write full chapters when your current work isn't finished, and fans are chomping at the bit?
I'll get this one. I've already read the other four books, so I might as well. But I think that the "pulling a Jordan" comment is too soon. I am skeptical we will ever actually see the end to this series. I'd written this one off, but apparently I was wrong. Hopefully that release date sticks, this time.
If you can't convince them, convict them.
And everyone was worried that he was going to pull a Jordan."
There's still two books to go, and Martin is 62 years old. Since it was SEVEN years between "a feast for crows" and "a dance with dragons", he would be 76 at this rate before he finishes. That's beyond the average american lifespan, so yes...a "jordan" is a very real possibility.
I'll echo someone I read a couple of days ago and say this is the longest wait for half of a book I've ever encountered.
Agreed. If you can't see a big "F-U" from Martin between the lines, you aren't paying very close attention. 100% due to Martin and Robert Jordan, I will never, EVER pick up and start reading another book series that isn't completed the day I buy the first one. Screw you guys, screw you all.
While Robert Jordan may have died before he finished the series, I think he and his wife/editor made a good decision in selecting Brandon Sanderson as co-author to complete the final 3 installments. While many people got jaded around books 4-5-6-7 (YMMV), I think Jordan picked up his original style around books 10-11; A Knife of Dreams was fantastic. 12 and 13 were co-authored, but were both excellent works. A Memory of Light is still in the process, but it is expected to be just as good, or better than, the previous two.
So even if GRRM does kick the bucket, if he "pulls a Jordan" that means that he'll have written out enough notes for a solid conclusion to his fictional world and have selected a competent co-author who can finish out strongly. Is that such a worst-case-scenario?
What else can happen when an unstoppable force collides with an immovable object?
Was anyone actually worried he would "pull a Jordan?"
Yes. He's going to be well into his 70's before he's done, and he weighs like 400lbs.
Why do I care if he wants to play baseball?
Nah, with all due respect to the author of my favourite series, he was slow. Though it had more to do with his fascination to delving way too deep into often unnecessary details rather than him unable to write a plot in a first place. (For instance, did he really need to spend all that all that screen time on Galina?). That meant that he ended up wasting too much time summing it up.
Brandon Sanderson really did cut out the "no-doubt-interesting-but-ultimately-irrelevant" plot trivia. That's why he was able to bang out two books in about as many years. Him and Jim Butcher are some of my favorite modern day authors. I highly recommend their works.
Though if you like, you an replace "Pulling a Jordan" with Author Existence Failure, but that will entail you loosing all track of time :P
I am an ACCA student. Got a query on Accountancy/Finance? Maybe I can help!
It isn't done. It's just 'done enough' that the publishers feels like they should roll out a date. The publisher has, at various times, rolled out dates in the past only to have them be missed. I will believe it when I see it.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
No. Sorry. Not done yet.
Yes, they've set a date for publishing. But really, let's get the summary right at least.
"Before criticizing someone, first walk a mile in his shoes. Then, you'll be a mile away... and you'll have his shoes."
Nah, with all due respect to the author of my favourite series, he was slow. Though it had more to do with his fascination to delving way too deep into often unnecessary details rather than him unable to write a plot in a first place. (For instance, did he really need to spend all that all that screen time on Galina?). That meant that he ended up wasting too much time summing it up.
Brandon Sanderson really did cut out the "no-doubt-interesting-but-ultimately-irrelevant" plot trivia. That's why he was able to bang out two books in about as many years. Him and Jim Butcher are some of my favorite modern day authors. I highly recommend their works.
Though if you like, you an replace "Pulling a Jordan" with Author Existence Failure, but that will entail you loosing all track of time :P
Disclaimer: I am a fan of the Jordan books, although I don't think I could explain the plot to you.
Which is my Preferred Theory on what happened to Jordan: I don't believe he had the whole thing plotted out, and ended up in Twin Peaks land - so many plot points to clear up that it just couldn't be done, and he couldn't decide which ones to abandon. (I think Sanderson has done a great job just focusing on the important ones, while keeping the general style.) But if I had to compare Wheel of Time to another series, it would be like taking all the Dragonlance novels and running them as one continuous series instead of breaking them up into particular three-four book plots.
Well, this is a happy coincidence. I was going to throw out an "is this series any good?" question to the /. hordes, but, let's be honest, that would probably tell me nothing. But from other of your posts, I think you can give me a good opinion on that.
I'm not generally a fan of fantasy (notable exceptions: Nevèrÿon, selected Michael Moorcock, Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (although that was a _long_ time ago)), but I've liked Martin's SF short stories. Is this series worth the time investment?
This is the voice of World Control. I bring you Peace.
Also just followed the link, and the post doesn't say the book is done. In fact, it specifically says it's *not* done. All he's done is give himself a public deadline (probably so he *gets* it done by then.)
It's obvious that he had an overall story arc, but his stories move so slowly that it could have easily taken many, many books to complete. He covers a number of years in four books that other authors might cover in four chapters. Of course, now he's running out of Starks and things are coming to a head, but I have a feeling that if this is the actual conclusion to all the story arcs, it will seem really rushed.
It does not read as though he is just making it up as he goes along, copying and pasting previous story segments while slightly changing the names and circumstances as a shortcut.
Are you sure you don't mean Mr. Goodkind here? Because this sounds like a lot better description of him.
Was anyone actually worried he would "pull a Jordan?"
Yeah, their is concern... check out this timeline:
* A Game of Thrones (1996)
* A Clash of Kings (1998) 2 years
* A Storm of Swords (2000) 2 years
* A Feast for Crows (2005) 5 years and next book half done
* A Dance with Dragons (not in 2011) 6 years
* The Winds of Winter (forthcoming) so 6 years (GRRM age now 68+)
* A Dream of Spring (forthcoming) so 6 years (GRRM 75+)
Unless something really changes in the speed of his writing we are likely never going to read the ending.
Meanwhile, Steven Erikson just completed the 10 book Malazan Book of the Fallen series, which is at least the equal of ASoIaF, as of Tuesday with the release of the 10th book. He started the series 4 years after Martin started ASoIaF.
I won't believe it until it actually ships from Amazon. They had a publishing date set years ago, I think they even put it up for pre-order...everything sounded like the book was done and at the printers. Now we find out it STILL isn't really finished?
What's really a shame is I'm just wrapping up re-reading the previous four books in anticipation of the new TV series. We can probably thank that for him finally (hopefully) getting this book finished. The teaser preview for the series sounds good. Hopefully they won't completely and utterly destroy it like they did the Sword of Truth series.
May be a good time to post Neil Gaiman's blog entry on why George R.R. Martin is not your bitch.
WRONG!
This is the second half of part 4 of ASoFaI. He has 3 more books which comprise the 2nd story arc. This story should be pulled as it's just wrong.
Tell me what you believe...I'll tell you what you should see.
Agreed. Wizard's First Rule was excellent. The second, meh. Third and on, save the trees man, I'd rather have them than this potboilery shit.
Uh, "if it looks roughly mouse-shaped according to my infra-red sensitive pit, eat it"? --Chris Burke 09-08-10
may i introduce you to the chtorr?
Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
-kfg
I know several people who are very happy about this news, and I admit I actually have no idea who he is or what series this is the next book of. I know, Google is my friend, etc., but what I'm really asking is, and this is the perfect place to ask, "Why should I read this series, especially given that it seems he seems takes an awful lot of time to complete a book". Sounds like he'd give Knuth a run for his money.
I'm honestly not trolling: I'm really interested and am just looking for more subjective information about what this whole series is "about", and what people like about it.
Okay, I'll turn in my geek card now.
Bleh... I accidentally said (not in 2011) for A Dance with Dragons, didn't mean to say not in... still, the rest of the timeline is correct and saddening. George R R Martin needs to take some notes from Elizabeth Moon. Book 2 of the new series already came out, book 3 is done and at the editor. Book 4 has been started. And still no Song of Ice and Fire. He really should have finished it in October of last year so it could hit stands the same time and the TV series starts in April. So much for that. The new Deeds of Paks series is really good so far. Elizabeth Moons writing has improved 10 fold since she last visited the series. And it went from a 3 book series to 5 books I think at this point. The woman is a machine... story gets into her head and she cannot stop writing.
LEARN FROM HER GRRM!
"The dragons are coming. Prepare to dance."
This is one of the best fantasy series I've ever read.
Actually, it's more what I'd call "realistic" fantasy. Now, before you start telling me that fantasy is by definition not realistic, let me explain.
Martin's characters are some of the most relentlessly human I've seen in a fantasy series. None of the characters, save a few who live on the edges (so far) have been pure good or pure evil. Everybody is a shade of gray.
Add to that the fact that Martin isn't afraid to kill off major characters, and it's a delight to read.
i foresee a new career path for sanderson. help may be needed for janny wurts if she doesn't hurry up, and didn't eddings leave something half done at the end? feist's stuff can probably be kept going forever.
has sanderson done any sci-fi? he should talk to david gerrold, or gordy dickson's heirs....
Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
-kfg
Well, this is a happy coincidence. I was going to throw out an "is this series any good?" question to the /. hordes, but, let's be honest, that would probably tell me nothing. But from other of your posts, I think you can give me a good opinion on that.
I'm not generally a fan of fantasy (notable exceptions: Nevèrÿon, selected Michael Moorcock, Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (although that was a _long_ time ago)), but I've liked Martin's SF short stories. Is this series worth the time investment?
It very much is. If you want you could wait for the tv show on HBO to air (April I believe) to see if you like it. The politics, story, characters, and setting are all very good and well worth reading.
Hi,
i consider the reference to Jordan as bad taste and offensive toward Jordans family. Do you think he intended to die? As a comment, i would have expected such a missstep, but as story this is a very, very low level.
Furthermore: the story belongs to the author and only him. If he decides to take 17 years for the next book (as Tokien did after The Hobbit), one has to wait. I would rather wait in vain, than pushing for a book the author feels not happy with.
Disappointed, Martin
I'm starting to hope that Brandon Sanderson (who is also not my bitch) would finish the series, as he is doing with WoT. Lets hope that GRRM leaves plenty of notes behind.
Sorry for the all caps, but yes, Malazan Book of the Fallen is far superior to Song of Ice and Fire. It's dark, it's gritty, and yet it's redeeming, portrays all the characters as more than one dimensional stock, and manages to include philosophical critiques of the world, religion, philosophy, economics, emotion, and fanaticism of all stripes without breaking stride or tone. It's the only series that has made me care about a couple of villains as well as the heroes. It is simply amazing. Just be warned: to start the series you're going to have to slog through approximately half of "Gardens of the Moon" before you start getting it. Once you do though, you'll be hooked.
Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
Actually, part of what made this book so long in coming was the fact that GRRM initially wanted the 4th book to skip ahead years, with some of the intervening detail revealed in flashbacks. He got partway into writing it, and realized that wouldn't work.
So, he started over. Then he realized that this new approach required him to fill out all sorts of stuff that he hadn't counted on, which made the book length explode. Then he seperated them into two, and "A Feast for Crows" was born.
He has stated many times that he wrote himself into a corner (my words, not his), referring to the issue as a "Meerenese Knot". It appears he's finally resolved this, and now is comfortable setting a hard date to be finished with the manuscript.
Yeah, I'd put the odds at 50/50 that this series will ever be completed and I'm starting to think about the same policy in terms of epic series. I'll wait for the second book - if it comes out within 1.5 years of the first, I'll read it. Otherwise I might not - why read something that might not ever be finished?
Well put, those are exactly the characteristics that I find most enjoyable about Martin's writing.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
And this might be the longest half of a book ever clocking in at 1008 pages!
Reviewing just the first hour of video games.
The vast and sprawling Malazan Book of the Fallen just had its final volume released this week. Say what you will about Erikson - he gets shit done.
Heh, well, I'd guess the first step in avoiding "pulling a Jordan" is trying not to. :)
The enemies of Democracy are
Well, I do get suckered into reading some really terrible authors, but thankfully I have managed to avoid Goodkind. As for Jordan, just answer me this, how many times can a woman smooth the front of her dress?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Personally, I gave up on the series after the second book in which he killed off (mostly at the hands of characters that were unlikable) all of the likable characters from the first book (those that had not died in the first book).
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
I agree that Martin was a better writer then Jordan .. I gave up reading WOT after book #9 (path of daggers), but I disagree that Martin was that much better. Some characters were amazing but some were just boooring.
At this point I have a hard time motivating myself to care... I don't really remember what happened in the last book so I'm not sure I'll bother reading dance of dragons..
besides by now the bar is set higher with so many good new writers (Erickson, Lynch,Abercrombie etc)
ps. now that Sanderson is finishing WOT I'm actually debating with myself whether I should finish reading the series ... If only I could skip books written by Jordan ...
To be fair, Martin was struck by a very bad case of writers block because of the way he wrote A Feast for Crows. He was trying to cut down on the number of characters in the book so he left a bunch of important characters out, but was left with the problem of writing the second book with events that characters in the first one had already experienced. Hopefully he won't have the same issue with the final two books. So there's hope that they'll both get published this decade.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
Also, it seems very much to be more a story of political, interpersonal, and family relations that happens to be set in medieval fantasy than it is about fantasy with some personal drama on the side. I've only read 80% of one of the books, but it was very good. (:
He's been upstaged, thank you. I'll avoid picking that one up if I find it on the rack before I'm fifty.
Uh, "if it looks roughly mouse-shaped according to my infra-red sensitive pit, eat it"? --Chris Burke 09-08-10
I'm a paying customer and I have the right to bitch, complain and moan all I want. I spent money, not to mention time and mental energy, on Martin's books and I certainly wouldn't have done so if I didn't feel that there was at least an implicit promise that he would make a reasonable effort to finish the series and not leave me hanging out to dry with a thousand cliffhangers.
I understand about missing deadlines and writers block and all that. But if you can't write, then at least shut up about it, for Ghu's sake. Don't tease me with updates about writing and the possible finish of the book and then go, "Oh well, didn't finish. Off to Spain for a month".
It's not like I've been hanging around, doing nothing, waiting for the next book to come out. In the time since Feast Of Crows came out I've managed to get married, have a daughter, buy a house and do a lot of other cool and interesting things. Still, I check in on the GRRM site every couple months and I am happy to bitch about the subject when it comes up in conversation or online.
If the HBO series is successful he will be forced to finish the series. He can't very well let the series get ahead of the books. Assuming 1 season = 1 book, I'd say that gives him ~6 years to finish the last two books.
He was going to announce Dance with Dragons over Christmas, but he was in the hospital for a week or two. Since he seems to have a lot else on his plate[ie tv series premieres in a month] this delayed him more than 2 weeks as he needed to find a new free time in his schedule instead of just pushing everything back. But no reason not to believe that this publishing date is real.
I think it's important to note that the series isn't really a fantasy series. It has fantasy elements, but that is not the focus. Thematically, I would have to say it's tragedy. I wish I'd known that when I went into the series. It's good, but if you expect the good guys to win the day...
If you can't convince them, convict them.
Yeah, as my wife would say, his books are character driven, not plot driven. The plot exists as a setting in which to explore the characters' motivations and choices, rather than the characters existing merely to move the plot forward.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
The new Deeds of Paks series is really good so far. Elizabeth Moons writing has improved 10 fold since she last visited the series. And it went from a 3 book series to 5 books I think at this point. The woman is a machine... story gets into her head and she cannot stop writing. Thanks, I had read the original 3 but had no idea she had written more. Off to the bookstore I go(and here I'm trying to save money this month).
Orwell was an optimist.
and what? Die? That's a tad insensitive even for Slashdot. I know we are all emotionless robots here but come on...
I genuinely believe that the next two books will happen a lot faster than the previous two did. From what I understand, the long delays on AFFC and ADWD occurred because of restructuring/rewriting. This restructuring occurred because Martin had originally intended to have them take place after a 5-year gap (in-book time), but realized after partially writing it that this necessitated too many flashbacks and wasn't working, and changed it so that the events in AFFC and ADWD take place immediately after A Storm of Swords. I think Martin will probably have gotten most of the parts of the books that the timeline change affected out of the way with ADWD. Also, he has a few chapters banked for the next book already. Besides, he'll have to write faster so the new HBO series based on his books doesn't catch up with him.
For my own limited opinion, I read the first two books and had to stop. The writing is incredibly well done, and I agree with other posters comments regarding characterization. However, the story was so damn dark and depressing. At the end of each chapter, something bad happens to one of the main family characters, who are essentially decent people. Every chapter. As I was reading, at the end of each chapter, I was like, "Oh man, that sucks." "Oh, god, that's terrible." "Holy crap!" "That's horrible!" "These poor people!"
I just couldn't take it anymore, it was so depressing, I had to stop reading the series.
While you were writing that comment, Stephen King just finished and published 18 books. So there!
I can understand your point of view to a certain extent, but I still hold book 6 (Faith of the Fallen), as one of the best books I've read. I actually enjoyed the whole series (though books 2, 5, and 7 were crap installments).
I agree with you on that, some of his dialog and descriptions tend to be repetitive and overly detailed. But I was talking about the 'overall story arc'. His books do have one. It might be slow, it might be protracted, but it is there. Books 8 though 11 books were about Perrin saving his woman, Elayne taking the throne, Egwene taking Tar Valon, and Mat marrying the Seanchan heiress. That's the story arc. It's just that 1 book worth of story was relativistically stretched into 4 books :)
If you are referring to Cersie, I thought it was very believable. She became psychotic -- it's a real thing that happens to people, including leaders (think Gaddafi), and Martin wrote the character very well.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
It's more than the second half of Feast of Crows. The first 1/2-2/3[of a 1000 page book] will be concurrent to Feast of Crows, but the rest of the book will be after Feast of Crows[ie stuff always planned to be in book 5]
I didn't like the Ice/Fire series. It barely classifies as fantasy in the first place. After so many books, there's just a mere hint of supernatural elements. Most of it is like some fictional European history. And though there are quite a few interesting characters in the book, I'm getting tired of them just missing each other and never fucking meeting up....Martin has a real problem with tying up storylines.
Too much fluff. Have you seen the way Isaac Asimov writes? Now that's the way to get a book going! No long boring descriptions of the damned landscape for example.
Apparently "Pulling a Jordan" means to go down with what looks like a career ending injury, only to come back and have the best game of his life.
Why wouldn't you want him to pull a Jordan?
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Personally, I like the Jordan style much, much better for WoT. There's an essential life to the story, and characters, that's missing. A lot of the things that seem unnecessary, even in retrospect, are there to justify the otherwise insane decisions the characters make; for me, it was clearest at the beginning of the Galad/Perrin confrontation--the characters just seem to move on strings, acting for no real reason other than that's what's necessary to move the plot along. I don't mean that to discourage anyone from reading the Sanderson WoT books though--especially since there is a lot in there where, either Jordan wrote it himself, or Sanderson's ability to imitate his style waxes and wanes, because the magic is there, just in spurts. The example I spoke of was probably the worst, and it wasn't that bad.
Anyway, even (or maybe especially) if you don't lie WoT at all, you should check out Sanderson's other works. Mistborn was pretty good--that's a high compliment for fantasy, which is usually absolute shit--and The Way of Kings, the only published book from the Stormlight Archives, is fucking amazing. I honestly haven't loved a book this much since The Fires of Heaven (I liked WoT before that, but that's the book that made me love it).
As for what the article is actually about, for those who have read it, is there an actual story arc going on? I read I think around halfway through the first book, and it just seemed like a bunch of disconnected subplots, and keeping track of all the characters even in that little bit was extremely difficult--now that I know he takes his PoV characters seriously it'd probably be easier, but I remember it being a real challenge to even remember what I already read about them. And maybe it's trite of me as a reader, but if I'm going to read about swords and magic and all that, I'm looking for a story about something more than the machinations of a bunch of people squabbling over power. From what I read, it seemed that that's all there would be.
But, I loved the writing. I loved the characters, and how well the author got into their heads. I guess I'd like to be on the bandwagon for this one, so (please) without spoiling anything, is there an actual story here?
<xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
How about pull a Harlan? Just how's that The Last Dangerous Visions thing coming anyway?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
And the Tolkien estate sues him for writing fantasy and using two Rs as middle initials.
Just to provide a bit more insight on what Martin is attempting to accomplish in this saga; he's actually a historian by education who specialized in the war of the roses. All the squabbling that occurs is a remythologization of that power struggle, because people generally don't want to read stale history books (and by people, I mean the fiction consuming public). So it's pretty integral to his goals a writer and continues throughout the whole series, but the POV chapters lend very well to get in to the minds of various people and villains often end up having shades of gray which adds a great dynamic IMO. Don't know that any of this changes your opinion on his work though :)
Sorry to double reply, but the story is slow moving in many respects ... by the fourth book the overarching phenomenon is still developing and you have an idea of what it will be but still no clear picture.
Robert, not Michael.
I think it refers to dying with your epic fantasy series unfinished.
I also haven't noticed any pure good characters, (Ned being the closest) and the only pure evil characters have been of that 'stuff' coming from the north.
Not even Gregor Clegane or the Bloody Mummers?
I kind of think this "pulling a jordan" comment is pretty rude, and I'd expect it from a troll thread. Jordan died, most likely against his better judgement. I expect Martin shares our concerns about his potential expiry in the next decade, and also hopes that he doesn't die.
I understand the impatience, I love the series too, but I think this "pulling a jordan" mentality is hurting everyone. All 4 books have been great, I'd be more afraid that the next book will be a let-down than that the next book won't appear. Trainwrecking the series would be a worse fate than not seeing another entry.
Faith of the Fallen? Ugh.
I'm half shocked Goodkind didn't get sued for essentially taking a copy of Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead, crossing out its title and author and writing his own.
Who would you compare Abercrombie to? I haven't read his books, but they always come up.
As several have noted, Dances with Dragons is only the 5th of the projected 7 volumes. The last two are still out there.
I plugged in the values of the publication dates of the series so far into an excel spreadsheet and used the forecast function to predict the final two release dates:
publication history, tossed it into excel, and then used the forecast function to predict the next two release dates.
note - this looked a lot better before my tags were stripped out
# Title Published Days Months Years
1 A Game of Thrones Aug-96 0 0.00 0.00
2 A Clash of Kings Nov-98 822 27.40 2.25
3 A Storm of Swords Aug-00 639 21.30 1.75
4 A Feast for Crows Oct-05 1887 62.90 5.17
5 A Dance with Dragons Jul-11 2099 69.97 5.75
6 The Winds of Winter ? 2668 88.94 7.31 (projected)
7 A Dream of Spring ? 3169 105.63 8.68 (projected)
So plugging that in... We can expect Winds of Winter on the 20th of October in 2018.... And a Dream of Spring on the 24th of July 2027.
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
honestly, there aren't many good guys in the series... and there aren't many purely bad guys, either. mostly it's just people working towards their best interest using more or less shady means.
I'll see that and raise you The Years of Lyndon Johnson. First volume came out in 1982 and he's not even Vice-president yet.
I think of his books as shorter more concise versions of martin books: more action, faster pace but not as good world building. I also recommend peter brett and maybe brent weeks ( not as good as abercrombie though). ps. just finished Brandon Sanderson's way of kings and it simply blew me away.. liked it even more then Malazan empire books and that's saying something...
I liked his science fiction too, but I dropped this after the first volume. Too much death and maiming for my tastes.
a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
Oh, come on, GRRM long ago told us "I'm not your bitch", and that he'd finish writing when he was finished writing.
And it probably really only had about half the second half done by the time he published the first, since he'd taken the advice to tie off half the main stories rather than adding half as much to all of them.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I think it's pretty clear that, in the beginning at least, the Starks are better people than the Lannisters.
If you can't convince them, convict them.
EXACTLY why I refuse to read Stephen R. Donaldson's latest Thomas Covenant series. That jackass can release the last one before I even crack open the first one. I bugged my local SciFi bookstore for ages when I was in high school, waiting for White Gold Wielder.
I'm actually thankful to Robert Jordan for making the later books of the WoT series unreadable, thus saving me from caring about how the series would have ended had he written it.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
The last book is "The Winds of Winter" if I remember correctly. Also it ain't done yet...he indicated yesterday its close, BUT it ain;t done yet...however he and the publisher have announced a street date based on the fact its ALMOST done.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
Sure, he's added Dragons (which always felt to me like they were just tacked on) and random religions and The Others and lots of good characterization, but a lot of it's basically the Wars of the Roses.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
So it was originally supposed to be a 4 volume set. Then he took book 4 and broke it up into two books, making it a 5 volume set. Now, wikipedia shows SEVEN books. Who does this guy think he is, Robert Jordan?
Phht. It's Hardly The Fountainhead. Please. Despite the shared elements a common story archetype of one man fighting against popular thought (and architecture I guess? There's a statue in Faith of the Fallen), it has nothing in common.
Yeah, there are The Others, and the dragons, but it's really mostly about character and conflicts, not about magic or even action.
Plus if you start the series now, you have the advantage that you won't have forgotten who most of the characters are by now or which ones of them are Not Dead Yet, which is a problem I had when Volume 4 came out a long time after I'd read Volume 3.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Mod parent up. Seriously, he'll be lucky if he finishes this before he reaches his 80's. If he spent the same effort actually writing the Song of Ice & Fire books that he puts into writing his blog everyday, the thing would be done already. These books are the best fantasy-fiction I have ever read (although a bit dark), but these books are super low on the author's priority list.. He even went so far as to tear into his fans on his blog, saying he doesn't owe us anything... I think we'll be LUCKY if he pulls a Jordan (that is to say, leaves enough outline and material for a follow-on author to finish the story after he dies)... I think it is FAR more likely that this will be the last book that we see in the series, leaving this really amazing series stranded.
Each processor would proceed sequentially as if it had been better for them not to rise against Saul.
It barely classifies as fantasy in the first place. After so many books, there's just a mere hint of supernatural elements. Most of it is like some fictional European history.
To each his own. To me what you said is a selling point.
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
I'm sold. Yours and other comments below make it sound pleasingly non-stereotypical. And depressing. Perfect. It's been a lot of years since I've read any fantasy, so this is kinda exciting.
This is the voice of World Control. I bring you Peace.
I see your Gerrold and raise you Tales of the Continuing Time, which I'm still hoping to see completed, dammit.
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
Except that it's incorrectly marketed as a fantasy.
... you don't think it's clear that, at that point in writing the series, Goodkind read him some Ayn Rand and thought it was the most genius shit ever?
I mean, Jagang is instantly transformed from being a badass conquerer who wants to break your spirit and take everything from you just because he's such a badass and can to... a guy who wants to bring communism to the world. That completely pisses on the characterization of the major antagonist of the series. Faith of the Fallen isn't just a bad, unoriginal book, it's in that "Highlander 2" special echelon of being a sequel so bad, it actually ruins the good entries in the series before it.
Ouch. I guess I missed the news that Eddings had died.
I have great memories in high school when I happened upon Pawn of Prophecy. It's the first series that I ever took the time to read twice.
I read Sanderson's Elantris. Not great, but it kept my interest.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
I don't know if I would agree with that.
The prologue of the first book has a man being slain and then rising from the dead as a sort of zombie.
Dany immolates herself and emerges unharmed and with three dragons.
Thoros is able to repeatedly bring Dondarrion back to life.
Melisandre demonstrates a number of different magical abilities (immunity to poison and cold, creation of the shadow that kills Renly, etc).
Jaqen completely changes his face and appearance while Arya watches.
There are prophecies that are later realized all over the place.
Those are all fantasy elements. That the characters don't use magic to fly around all over the place or for more casual things like lighting their way in the dark IMHO makes the times when usage occurs more significant to me.
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
I have to second on Jim Butcher. Picked up the first book after Christmas on a recommendation, and less than two months later I had read all 13 or so books in the Dresden series. And for me that's quite a lot more reading than I usually do.
mov ax, 4c00h
int 21h
I'm not understanding the summary for this story in the context of what you've written. Why does it say that he has "completed his long awaited conclusion" to the series when there are still two more novels after it to be written and released. Poking around, I read that he may have written a few chapters in later books... but is that it?
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
A lot of people will lam-bast him, or defend him... whatever... here's my take on it:
I started reading his incredibly good books 11 (that's ELEVEN) years ago. They were great books! But waiting 5 years for a Feast for crows? I waited till it came out on paperback, got about half way through it and realized there was no point. I didn't remember any of the characters or the plot, and didn't feel like re-reading 4000+ pages just to catch myself up. Now, 17 years after the series started he finally writes the last book. Good for you George. Maybe my kid can read it when he gets old enough. But as for me and a lot of your audience? You lost us a decade ago. You got too involved in other projects, even politics for gods sake.
According to Mr. Martin's blog, one of the reasons why this book has taken so long to complete is because he's had to make complete structural changes to the way he intends to tell this story. He intended to have a substantial break of 10 years of plot time between books, and reference flashbacks in latter books to try and indicate what had happened in those 10 years of unwritten material. He scrapped that plan. Also, anybody who follows Mr. Martin's writings and musings on a regular basis are surely familiar with his frequent references to the "Meereeese Knot", which is a substantial plot point that he's been wrestling with for over 6 years. I'm scared that he's wrestling with a story that has grown out of his control, just like Robert Jordan did. I think that the tagline "Pull a Jordan" is insulting and offensive, but Mr. Martin has not always been in the best of health recently, so I think we have a right to be concerned.
Some characters that you hate early you will love later, (haven't really seen the converse)
Catelyn.
I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
I would even add the queen on there. I don't personally believe she has any redeeming qualities.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
But later on, Jamie Lannister comes out as a actual decent person, and Tyron is never strictly bad, though he does do a couple things that aren't strictly good. Now the Queen...she is a witch...
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
I'll just reread them myself.
There is some magic, but it isn't so much of a strong force in the world.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
I bugged my local SciFi bookstore for ages when I was in high school, waiting for White Gold Wielder.
HAH, yes! Me too. The funny thing, is I bought "wounded land" on paperback, so it had already been out a while, and I swear I remember waiting FOREVER for "one tree" and then "white gold wielder" to finish the series. I just looked at the wikipedia and it was actually only 2 years between the first two books, then one for the last one. That's nothing these days.
He even went so far as to tear into his fans on his blog, saying he doesn't owe us anything....
Really? I'd love to have that conversation with him. Maybe suggest he put THAT right on the cover so his readers know what to expect from him. Think he's got the balls to tell people BEFORE he's got their money that he'll finish the story if and when he feels like it?
Doesn't Jaime cripple a child as one of his first acts in the books? Maybe he's not "epic fantasy Hitler", but I wouldn't say he's a "decent person" *exactly*. But then again, I only read the first two books, so I suppose it's possible that he somehow redeemed himself for doing that... hard to imagine how you redeem yourself for intentionally crippling a child (while actually trying to kill said child).
To each their own, I suppose.
He gets shit done, and he's also a far better writer than Martin.
I'm not knocking Martin, he's a world ahead of Jordan (frankly the world of literature is a better place without him spewing out more shit books) and I'll happily buy that one when it's released.
But the Malazan Book of the Fallen is just by far the best 'fantasy' series I've ever read, by quite a margin.
I'd suggest the Malazan Book of the Fallen too then, by Stephen Erikson.
Get through Gardens of the Moon (the first book) and give the second one a go too, even if you don't like the first. It starts in (innovative) generic fantasy mode but swiftly turns up the ratchet, goes heavily multi-threaded, ties together story threads across millenia and has some of the harshest treatment for 'main' characters I've seen in mainstream books.
I mostly love it for the constant ratcheting up of the bar for "don't fuck with..", where someone you don't fuck with in the first book or two is destroyed in a middle book just to demonstrate how much nastier someone else is - who is then ripped apart to prove that an earlier character whose abilities were doubted really is that nasty.
Great writing, great story, excellent series.
I have to admit, the rising tide of venom about the lateness of A DANCE WITH DRAGONS has gotten pretty discouraging. Emails, message boards, blogs, LJ comments, everywhere I look (and lots of places where I don't), people seem to be attacking me, defending me, using me as a bad example of something or other, whatever. I can and do avoid most of the online discussions, although I do regularly get emails from people eager to point out the latest URL where DANCE and I are being hashed over. I can do that, and I can screen the trollish comments here on LJ, but there's no avoiding the emails. Some of you are angry about the miniatures, the swords, the resin busts, the games. You don't want me "wasting time" on those, or talking about them here. Some of you are angry that I watch football during the fall. You don't want me "wasting time" on the NFL, or talking about it here. Some of you hate my other projects. You don't want me co-editing WARRIORS or the Vance anthology or STAR-CROSSED LOVERS or any of the other projects I'm doing with my old friend Gardner Dozois, and you get angry when I post about them here. For reasons I don't quite comprehend, the people who hate those projects seem to hate WILD CARDS even more. You really don't want me working on that, "wasting time" on that, and posting about it here. Some of you don't want me attending conventions, teaching workshops, touring and doing promo, or visiting places like Spain and Portugal (last year) or Finland (this year). More wasting time, when I should be home working on A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. After all, as some of you like to point out in your emails, I am sixty years old and fat, and you don't want me to "pull a Robert Jordan" on you and deny you your book. Okay, I've got the message. You don't want me doing anything except A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE. Ever. (Well, maybe it's okay if I take a leak once in a while?)
https://grrumblers.wordpress.com/2010/08/25/quotes-of-the-week-grrm-brandon-sanderson/
Each processor would proceed sequentially as if it had been better for them not to rise against Saul.
I think that the tagline "Pull a Jordan" is insulting and offensive
I think it's apt and funny. I also hope Martin has the decency to finish his series before dies, but accept he may not be in complete control over that.
All of you over sensitive clods whining about the phrase 'pulling a Jordan' need to just step back and look at it. Jordan had a good arc supposedly planned out. 3-4 books.
He started making good cash on his books.....and suddenly started writing by the pound. Spending an entire page describing a few blades of grass or a barmaids perfect breasts. He stretched the series either intentionally or because of a horribly inflated ego and the lack of a decent editor who would slap him around and cut his bullshit.
So he turned a 3 book series into a 13+ book series......or from another viewpoint....a guaranteed lifelong income. If you read his blog posts or his interviews as the series dragged on, he got progressively more full of himself and felt entitled to fan adoration. He was an ubergeek rockstar...and managed to milk it up until his death.
So yes, pulling a Jordan is a bit heartless in that it refers to not finishing before dying.....but it is as much if not more about the attitude that made that fact a reality.
Does no one here get that I don't really like Jordan's work?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
/Seconded He's got a very significant bias to killing off Starks and only Starks, while everyone else basically gets a "get out of death free" card. At first I thought the whole killing off main characters would be cool and at random, by the time I read A Feast For Crows it became apparent that there's nothing random about it. That sucked most of the fun I had for the series out.
Be thankful that there is a book coming. Also, have any of you complaining morons ever tried to actually write a long form novel?? Have any of you even tried to freaking EDIT a novel?? Thought not.
Devotion to her children.
Love for one of her brothers. [Though after what he did at the end of the last book, she may not be so pleased with him. Assuming she survives, which in a GRRM book is not guaranteed.]
Though personally I dislike Cersei as well, there are certainly worse characters. One of her spawn comes to mind.
The fact this might be the first fantasy book I've ever seen in a Slashdot headline should tell you how good the series is. There is Tolkien who made it epic and there is Martin who makes it personal. Best Fantasy character writer ever.
Yes, he did (and the child in question is one of the few unequivocally good characters). He gets a little better, but I'd still say he's far from being a good person.
If you can't convince them, convict them.
The FIRST one was unreadable. Jordan purely sucked as a writer. And Donaldson is barely tolerable in small doses.
A classic example is the Gormenghast trilogy by Mervyn Peake. The first 2 books, "Titus Groan" and "Gormenghast," are brilliant, unique and well worth a dedicated reading.
Unfortunately the 3rd book, "Titus Alone," was only partially complete when Peake died of Parkinson's. His editor fleshed out the roughest parts and published it, but it is vastly inferior to the previous novels.
Really? I don't read GRRM, but I love WoT, and my experience with it certainly wouldn't put me off reading unfinished series. Sure it sucks if you are left hanging for a long time, but that's just another good excuse to re-read the whole thing when that next part comes out. And if you get a permanent cliff-hanger, well, you should still enjoy what you have. "Eating ramen that tastes really bad can be kind of fun, too"
Climate Progress - Hell and High Water
It's not Jordan's fault he got amyloidosis, and he certainly never had any intention of creating an "interminable, never ending cash cow". It is true he got a bit lost around 7-8, but he pulled out of it quite nicely before he died - before he was even diagnosed, I believe. It was a mistake, or a series of them, that lead to problems in those books, not intent.
Climate Progress - Hell and High Water
>After so many books, there's just a mere hint of supernatural elements
Except for, you know, dragon babies, early in the first book. Which is about where I quit reading; after all the boring descriptions of people standing on walls, that scene came as a disgusting shock. (partly because of the contrast, partly because that was before 4chan)
Climate Progress - Hell and High Water
He could do well like that, I think, but why would he want to? After finishing WoT, his name will made, big time, and he will be able to do whatever he feels like.
Climate Progress - Hell and High Water
> Was anyone actually worried he would "pull a Jordan?"
Having read both, I am not worried. Martin simply kills the guy who everyone thought would come out the victor in the end just to keep things interesting.
It's not like Jordan where story-lines are partially reset just to make the story longer.
And while that's probably the fault of the publisher, in my version of book two or three, about twenty pages happen twice. Main guy and random sidekick walk along a road, get diverted to a farm or something, come back, do some more stuff and _exactly the same diversion takes place_. Word for word.
He gets a little better, but I'd still say he's far from being a good person.
The best that can probably be said for him is that he tries to be better - but that is significant.
To summarise the summary of the summary: people are a problem. ~ h2g2
Game of Thrones Clash of Kings Storm of Swords Feast for Crows Dance With Dragons Interminably Long Wait for Six Posthumous Hackjob for Seven. I CAN'T WAIT
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
You're an asshole. A big "F U"? Ok. As Neil Gaiman once wrote: George R R Martin is not your bitch.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
I'm pretty sure the path Jamie takes from being a heinous child-murderer to slowly realizing the error of his ways and reluctantly, but inevitably changing them to see past his own nose is what is called a "Character Arc" in literary circles. I'm pretty sure it's a pretty common trope and isn't exactly meant to forgive him, but show growth of a man over a period of time.