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AMD Challenges NVIDIA To Graphics Throw-Down

Posted by Soulskill on from the fight-to-the-death dept.

MojoKid writes "Over the last couple of weeks, the two most powerful graphics cards released for the PC to date made their respective debuts, the dual-Cayman GPU powered AMD Radeon HD 6990 and the dual-GF110 GPU powered NVIDIA GeForce GTX 590. With such powerful products in their line-ups, both AMD and NVIDIA have claimed they offer 'the world's fastest graphics card.' AMD says it's theirs. Dave Erskine, the Senior Public Relations Manager for Graphics Desktop at AMD, challenged NVIDIA directly. 'So now I issue a challenge to our competitor: prove it, don't just say it. Show us the substantiation.'"

160 of 240 comments (clear)

  1. Anysufficiently advanced technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    is indistinguishable from a rigged benchmark

    1. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by binarylarry · · Score: 1

      I'm fine with it.

      As long as they agree to make Ubuntu the test platform.

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    2. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by davester666 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Who wants to see two computers running the same game at 10 frames/second at 640x480?

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    3. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by houstonbofh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Give it a week. It will be on http://www.phoronix.com/ And it will be more likely to be accurate. Of course it will have real god and useful data soon at http://openbenchmarking.org/ but that is actually helpful and will not be reported by anyone.

    4. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      AMD vs Nvidia under linux. AMD might as well forfeit to their own duel.

    5. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by adolf · · Score: 1

      More importantly: It won't be reported by anyone.

      Nobody cares.

      --
      Kid-proof tablet..
    6. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by jd · · Score: 2

      Elastons are the "new thing" in computer graphics, so a benchmark that involves running the software used to create the APS' video would seem "fair".

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    7. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Informative

      On Linux? Yes, although they have given out the full specs so it should be better soon. On Windows? you couldn't be more wrong as both the new IGPs and discrete have been kicking serious ass AND have been both stable and cheap!

      After the Nvidia Bumpgate and Intel bribing OEMs and rigging compilers came out I've been selling AMD/ATI exclusively in my shop and the customers couldn't be happy. The triple and quad core CPUs are cheap and plentiful and take everything they throw at them and come back for more, and the IGPs and discrete chips seriously crank out the pretty while giving a hell of a bang for the buck.

      The new hotness at the shop has been the dirt cheap HD48xx series which has gotten so low anybody that wants HD gaming or large screens can just have me drop one in for a little of nothing ($60 for the 4830 and $80 for the 4850) and the drivers are solid as a rock on both XP and 7 and the framerates are just nuts. I personally love my HD4850 and haven't had so much as a single driver error, but then again since AMD bought them out I haven't had a single problem with a single build.

      So personally I'm all for AMD and I hope they keep it up. Their new business plan of making mainstream GPUs and then simply adding a second with HT connect when they need to ramp up is the smart way to do it, as they don't have to waste time finding ways to cripple cards for the midrange market, and the cards just keep getting faster and cheaper. Now thanks to AMD buying ATI anybody can enjoy games and hardware acceleration even on the low end IGPs, hell I was playing Bioshock I and II and L4D on my onboard while I waited for my card to arrive and they played fine.

      So if any AMD employees are reading this, thanks. Your bang for the buck mantra has made it so even my low end customers can afford triples and quads, and made it easier than ever for everyone to have decent framerates without breaking their wallets. In these tough times that really helps out the working folks out here in middle America, so thanks, we appreciate it. And this is one builder that will shop with you first and foremost, your quality and low prices have earned my business. Thanks again.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    8. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by am+2k · · Score: 1

      As far as I can see at a first glance in the paper, they used a CPU-based implementation, so that benchmark wouldn't say anything about the GPU performance. Thanks for the reference though, that looks very cool!

    9. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 1

      Elastons are the "new thing" in computer graphics, so a benchmark that involves running the software used to create the APS' video would seem "fair".

      Wow @ 4:06

      -AI

      --
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
    10. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by smallfries · · Score: 2

      Oh look, it's only been ten years and someone has reinvented Hypermatter. Almost looks as good as the original.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    11. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by Fri13 · · Score: 1

      Oh if you just would't be AC and I would had mod points...

    12. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      is indistinguishable from a rigged benchmark

      The problem with asking for "neutral benchmarks" is that the APPLICATIONS and GAMES that actually use these cards in the real world AREN'T NEUTRAL.

      Almost every program these days has "optimizations" that are specific coding that caters to a particular hardware setup.

      It's not like this is a bad thing though, assuming you have that hardware. It's not tricking you, optimizations DO make execution faster, that's why it's called optimization!

    13. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      A lot of people seem to care. The arguments about who is faster, and which benchmark unfairly favors what are often on the front page of slashdot. But I guess no one cares about resolving it.

    14. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by houstonbofh · · Score: 2

      Can you show a problem one? They routinely show Windows beating Linux in graphics driver benchmarks, and they are Linux geeks. The Openbenchmark program is based on cross platform, natively compiled games and apps used by many people.

      So do you have an actual, valid complaint? A reading comprehension problem? Or a love of the troll flag?

    15. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by cpscotti · · Score: 1

      Because we are blind and fanatic Ubuntu fans. That's good enough reason.

    16. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by yoyhed · · Score: 1

      Hey, Tux Racer doesn't need that high of framerates or resolutions - it's a good enough game on its own!

      --
      WHO NEEDS SHIFT WHEN YOU HAVE CAPSLOCK/ DAMN1
    17. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by thehodapp · · Score: 1

      Ubuntu fans are obviously blind because they didn't make the choice to switch to it (or other linux distro). Yes, we are fanatics who like to cause general chaos and anarchy in the community. Especially because we know Windows is still a superior platform.

    18. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by binarylarry · · Score: 1

      Because AMD's Linux driver support is fucking terrible that's why.

      They'd get the message that they need to fire their retarded driver team and create a new one.

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    19. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

      If you are really too fucking stupid (which is a possibility seeing how the quality has gone down here at /.) to tell the difference between a real post and a shill, let your old pal Hairyfeet point out the differences:

      1.-The shill will bring up the product no matter whether the post has anything to do with it or not. Example: Look at the first post on the Nook hack, what does it say? "I wish Microsoft would have come out with the Courier" complete with link for those that don't know what the fuck that piece of bullshit vaporware was. Now did that have a God damned thing to do with Nooks? Nope but the guy is being paid by the post (and probably getting a bonus for first posts) so dammit he's getting his plug in. Now show me a single post in a non AMD/ATI story where I bring up either company? you can't because I speak about whatever topic is at hand, in this case it was AMD because that's the topic dipshit or can't you RTFS?

      2.- first posts at any cost even when they make NO sense. See example #1. My post on the other hand was answering a guy who was spouting the old "ATI drivers suck!" meme, which is like saying "Windows BSODs all the time!" as they are both about the same age.

      3.-NEVER say anything bad about the product EVER. See the post history of the Nook guy as an example, whereas I said "once AMD bought them out the drivers have been rock solid" implying quite clearly that before AMD bought them out their drivers sucked because you know what? They really did. They sucked massive amounts.

      4.-Give NO reason why you have a preference, if required to give a preference use marketing speak and be sure to hit the bullet points. See the MSFT shills we've had the past week for a good example of "buzzword bingo". Personally all I need is Synergy to get a diagonal and maybe win the crockpot. Now compare to mine where I pointed out malfeasance on the part of the competitors in the rigging of compilers on the Intel side along with bribery, and on Nvidia's side we have trying to shaft customers who got burnt by their bad GPUs. As someone who has supported a fair and open free market this kind of dirty shit don't fly, just as I argued MSFT should have been broken up over bribing OEMs.

      So in conclusion please use the above handy checklist for the stupid so that even total dipshits such as yourself can easily tell the difference between someone who is happy with a product and a paid shill. For the record I have gotten exactly ZERO in terms of cash, hardware, or even discounts, from either company, hell they haven't even offered me a T-Shirt. I sell AMD/ATI because they give prices any of my customers can afford (show me where I can get quad core Intel with a decent amount of RAM in a full kit for under $260 after MIR like this deal) while having damned good performance and being rock solid stable. Will Intel kill them in the top end? Hell yes, and 4-6 times the price! My customers are working folks, they need a good machine that will last at a price that won't break them, and AMD gives them that while giving them the ability to upgrade. The Intel socket bingo is frankly getting nuts. What are they up to now, something like FOUR sockets all active ATM?

      So thanks AMD, I've been selling your desktops and laptops and have had NO complaints. They're cheap, may not be the fastest but are more than fast enough for a good 90% of those that walk through my door, and the new IGPs and discrete chips are awesome. And BTW if you have read my past posting you know I put my money where my mouth is...AMD 925 X4, 8 Gb of DDR 2 800MHz, dual 500Gb HDDs, and I just replaced my old workhorse HD4650 (which still works great and will be handed down to a nephew) for an HD4850 thanks to my GF deciding she wanted to "support my inner geek". Personally I think its bribery as the grandbaby will be here next month and I bet she's planning on us doing a lot of babysitting, but gift horses and mouths and all.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    20. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by Ensign+Morph · · Score: 1

      Remember when they claimed Steam was coming to Linux absolutely, positively, for sure, 100% confirmed with an official announcement coming out imminently? Then it ... umm, didn't.

      It's a worthwhile site, but they're unreformed Linux fanboys and inevitably that does bias their reporting sometimes. They don't rig tests, but they do find a way to interpret the results in a pro-Linux way if possible.

    21. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by supersloshy · · Score: 1

      They only reported it because another website reported it falsely. Don't blame them for another website's mistake.

      --
      "Our country is not nearly so overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded." -Archbishop Fulton Sheen
    22. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by arose · · Score: 1

      That doesn't sound like a benchmark issue... Character attacks aren't impressive when asked for a problematic benchmark.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    23. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by HaZardman27 · · Score: 1

      I just bought my first AMD/ATI card (was a long-time green team player), and I may never go back to nVidia. My Radeon HD 6950 has 2GB of VRAM, runs pretty cool (never gone over 50 C), is tearing up any game I've sent at it, and cost less than $300. Plus it has dual-BIOS so I can flash it to run as a 6970 without worrying too much about messing up.

      --
      Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
    24. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Hell, AMDs Windows drivers are still horrible. They should include the number of crashes in the benchmark tests. That would definitely show who wins in reality...

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    25. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, what you said about stability comes across as a shill, as we all have friends who tell us how often the ATI drivers crash. With Windows 7, it is quite clear when it is the video driver crashing as a pleasant box comes up telling you that the video driver crashed and had to be restarted. I run Nvidia, and the only time I ever had the video drivers crash was when my water cooling started leaking on the card, and after drying off the card, it is still going strong.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    26. Re:Anysufficiently advanced technology by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Well then allow me to retort: The ONLY errors and crashes I've seen with the new ATI is when you are going bleeding edge and you know what? The same goes for Nvidia. Bleeding edge isn't called that for nothing you know, and the smart money stay at least 3 months behind on BOTH sides to let them sort the driver issues out of new revs. But hell show me ANY place where the bleeding edge isn't flirting with disaster, that just goes with the course.

      That is why I usually advise my customers to stick with the "sweet spots" which are usually a generation or two behind. I've just now started selling the HD5xxx cards and if a customer asks for best bang for the buck I recommend the HD48xx, especially the HD4850 which again i put my money (or in this case my GF's money, thanks sweetie!) where my mouth is. I don't sell ANY product I wouldn't use myself, period. I use myself as beta tester for all the hardware and software I recommend that way if anybody gets burned it is me and NOT the customer.

      As for why not Nvidia? Two reasons: Bumpgate and power management. The Nvidia reaction to the bad rev was just sorry, no two ways about it. Instead of manning up to their problem like I give MSFT credit for with the 360, they first lied, then ignored, then tried to cheat and slip it under the rug by using "patches" that did dirty tricks like crank the fans up to 100% and leave them there in the hopes the card would get past warranty before shitting itself. If you like them as a company and they work for you I'm happy for you, but I have yet to hear anyone with a straight face claim Nvidia treated their customers well on that mess. hell they even tried to dump the chips in the channel by relabeling them, just sorry.

      As for the second Nvidia has a problem with the arch IMHO, one I don't see them fixing anytime soon and which is one of the reasons IMHO they got out of the chipset business and is pushing themselves as GP-GPUs. You see an Nvidia chip is pretty much "all or nothing" in that it is blasting full bore (with the associated heat) or isn't doing anything at all, there really isn't much of anything in between.

      With the ATI design they can flip stream processors on or off at will, which lets them scale up to meet demand and scale back when not required. This has been pretty well documented on various forums and developer sites if you wish to look it up. What this means is that laptops can ramp up and down to save power without needing two GPUs ala optimus, and on the desktop it brings lower electrical and cooling bills. When you look at the power draw of the new Nvidia chips and compare them to the same in AMD in many cases the differences can be pretty extreme, you really need to get into dual GPUs for AMD chips to be slamming down the juice like the Nvidia does.

      But hey if it works for you I'm happy for you. I NEVER said Nvidia cards were shit, or weren't up to the task like a shill would. I simply listed as well as I could my reasons for using product A over product B and pointing out what I think the advantages are. But hell I used to be an Intel+Nvidia man, was for years, so I know that combo works. I just don't like the corporate policy behind one (Intel) and the way they deal with bad chips and power management with the other(nvidia) but I never said it didn't work, just that it doesn't work for me and those I support.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  2. Big words... by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Funny

    (disclosure: I have Radeons stashed in various machinery throughout the house - especially the Macs)

    Anyrate, them are pretty big words, but I'd take them more seriously if they agreed on a neutral testing lab and benchmarks that aren't geared towards one over the other.

    Oh, and for the love of all that is holy, please provide comic relief by including an Intel video chipset. Pretty please?
    (please insert evil grin here)

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    1. Re:Big words... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Your point? So does an Etch-a-sketch.

    2. Re:Big words... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Uh, yeah... I don't think so.

    3. Re:Big words... by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 2

      Oh, and for the love of all that is holy, please provide comic relief by including an Intel video chipset. Pretty please? (please insert evil grin here)

      If you are going to pick on an integrated video solution then you don't have to bother with Intel. None of the integrated chipsets would stack up at all against these top of the line cards.

      If you want a comparison, try showing what other things you could have bought for $700+. Perhaps an XBox AND a PS3 plus a mainstream video card? Or maybe just one console, a few games, a mainstream card and a vacuum cleaner to run while playing (to simulate the sound of the high end cards).

    4. Re:Big words... by houstonbofh · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you are going to pick on an integrated video solution then you don't have to bother with Intel. None of the integrated chipsets would stack up at all against these top of the line cards.

      If you want a comparison, try showing what other things you could have bought for $700+. Perhaps an XBox AND a PS3 plus a mainstream video card? Or maybe just one console, a few games, a mainstream card and a vacuum cleaner to run while playing (to simulate the sound of the high end cards).

      Three hours with a mid range hooker? I know you still get screwed longer with the PS3, but it is more fun with a hooker.

    5. Re:Big words... by izomiac · · Score: 1

      Oh, and for the love of all that is holy, please provide comic relief by including an Intel video chipset. Pretty please? (please insert evil grin here)

      Only if you do the benchmark on battery power... Or perhaps use a cluster of them that would be equivalent in price.

    6. Re:Big words... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Anyrate, them are pretty big words, but I'd take them more seriously if they agreed on a neutral testing lab and benchmarks that aren't geared towards one over the other.

      Really? I'd prefer a strict outcome, but an anything goes to get the solution approach. If code can be written that runs far better on one than the other, lets see it. Providing the visual outputs are the same on both of the results I say go nuts with the custom optimisation. I'm all for something working equally well on both platforms, but if you design and code for compatibility you're often not getting the fullest out of the hardware.

    7. Re:Big words... by dlochinski · · Score: 1

      Not Really

    8. Re:Big words... by makomk · · Score: 1, Informative

      Even with benchmarks geared to favour the NVidia card, it still loses - and that's assuming it doesn't blow up first as well...

    9. Re:Big words... by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Really? I'd prefer a strict outcome, but an anything goes to get the solution approach.

      May want to search the /. archives for "quack.exe" before you say that. Don't feel much like having a game's graphics pre-crippled by a vidcard desperate to tweak-up some FPS numbers again, err, thanks much...

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  3. Browser war by freakingme · · Score: 2

    This is gonna be as interesting as Browser benchmarks are. Chrome, IE9, FF and Opera all win in their own benchmark. What does it mean to the enduser? Nothing.

    1. Re:Browser war by Xtifr · · Score: 1

      The 'fastest' card is easy to determine.

      Is it? Modern GPUs can do a pretty amazing array of complicated stuff, and I wouldn't at be surprised to find that each has its own strengths and weaknesses at particular tasks or subtasks. I agree with you that the results don't really matter to the vast majority of us, though. :)

    2. Re:Browser war by hduff · · Score: 1

      This is gonna be as interesting as Browser benchmarks are. Chrome, IE9, FF and Opera all win in their own benchmark. What does it mean to the enduser? Nothing.

      What it means is that they are so similar in performance so as to be indistinguishable to the user.

      When 'winning' a benchmark is counted in a measurement too small to be perceived by a human, that is really a 'tie'.

      But you can't do any marketing with that kind of result, so we get these biased and inflated 'benchmarks' to create an artificially significant difference.

      After the lawyers, let's shoot the marketing people.

      --
      "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
  4. Cute by jimmerz28 · · Score: 1

    I love dork drama.

  5. Re:the only problem with these state of the art ca by click2005 · · Score: 1

    Thats fine if you want to run a game on a 1080p monitor. These sorts of cards are designed to run 3 x 30" 2560x1600 monitors at a decent frame rate.

    --
    I am a free slashdotter. I will not be modded, blogged, DRM'd, patented, podcasted or RFID'd. My life is my own.
  6. Hope their drivers have improved by Bigbutt · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yea, I'm still getting blue screens on my AMDs. Yea, I'll get modded down by the AMD fanbois. Such is life.

    [John]

    --
    Shit better not happen!
    1. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Blue screen can also be caused by faulty hardware you know, the drivers work just fine on a working card.

    2. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Learn how to properly set your memory voltage/timings/clock....
      Make sure you're memtest86+ stable..

      AMD boards generally do not support EPP 2.0 so you need to manually set your RAM up in your BIOS to get it stable if you buy high performance RAM.

      I've got half a dozen AMD machines, many of them heavily overclocked and water cooled.. They're all rock solid stable.

    3. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by DigiShaman · · Score: 2

      Drivers interface with the kernel. When you have a poorly written driver that steps in the wrong place in memory, a kernel panic will occur. In the Windows world, that's called a BSOD. Mind you, that any device driver can cause this. In fact, so can anti-virus software being they install their own software drivers for kernel access.

      Yes, faulty hardware can cause a host of issues. But don't discount sloppy coding either.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    4. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by KamuZ · · Score: 2

      I always hear this with AMD drivers but I have been using their cards (as a gamer) for years now and never had any problems.

    5. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      I always hear this with AMD drivers but I have been using their cards (as a gamer) for years now and never had any problems.

      Touch wood, fast!

      No! Not that.... Eew... No I don't want to shake hands...

    6. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      The bulk of Vista and 7 graphics driver code is implemented as user-mode driver DLLs. No BSODs normally, just an app crash or driver restart.

    7. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Same here. I think it is more a matter of people having questionable rigs in general, and randomly picking a component to blame. I had a friend that years ago would constantly claim that his computer kept crashing because it had an AMD processor. I went and looked at his machine, and found it was sitting next to a window that got massive condensation. The inside the the case was actually rusting. Even when pointing that out the liquid puddling in the bottom of his case, he insisted that it must be the AMD cpu.

    8. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Astroturf comment is astroturf.
      There was something recently about how stable Radeon drivers are compared to Nvidia based on Windows error reporting.

    9. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by AbRASiON · · Score: 1

      If you're getting blue screens (and not just driver hangs / restarts) then you very likely have a physical hardware problem or a seriously, seriously screwed up machine.

      I've had 2 bluescreens in total under Windows 7 and both of them were related to me fiddling with some tricky stuff (hard disk controller drivers)

    10. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by higuita · · Score: 1

      Maybe the problem isnnt in the graphic card drivers but in the PSU or MB or other drivers? or maybe too old drivers?

      the bigger problem i (sometime) have is the GPU lockup, but the drivers reset the card and recovers everything (just have a few seconds freeze)... and even that was on new games with old drivers... updating the driver fixed that too.

      --
      Higuita
    11. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by Xest · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah but how many systems have you and the parent had? If you're talking a handful then your personal anecdotes are meaningless.

      I did tech support for local government/schools for 7 years and we had over 5000 PCs to look after at any one time, and of course over that period we went through a number of hardware refreshes so I saw closed to 15,000 machines of various configurations.

      I can tell you now that the number of times we had widespread issues with nVidia cards was one due to one bad driver release, but rolling back to old drivers was rediculously easy with nVidia.

      In contrast ATI cards were a constant persistent headache, and sure there were some ATI based systems that never really caused a problem, but there were literally hundreds that did. The issues ranged from instability due to shit drivers, through to perhaps one of the most annoying issues- the fact that you could download the right drivers for a card from the ATI site and sometimes they just would not work with the only way to get graphics working properly to find the original CD that came with the system/card and install the version from that because later versions of drivers for a specific card didn't always work right with those older cards. Even when you found the old driver CD if those original drivers were shit- i.e. poor performing, or unstable then you were left with a choice between an unstable/poor performing system or, well, no drivers at all.

      ATI cards don't have a poor reputation because the odd gamer has had a dodgy system, they have a poor reputation for drivers because people like me who have dealt with large sample sizes of systems have seen that ATI cards over the years have consistently had these problems whereas nVidia's screwups have been relatively few and far beween in contrast.

      I can similarly tell you from my experience of such a large sample size that whilst HP printers are generally some of the best hardware, they have equally had some terrible driver releases through the years. I can tell you that Maxtor drives have a drastically higher failure rate than that of other manufacturers.

      It's not fanboyism if a particular product or manufacturer has a bad reputation for some reason, no it's generally based on the fact there's a lot of truth in that reputation. If it was as you say individuals building questionable systems then why don't nVidia equally have a bad rep, or are you suggesting nVidia users are more competent at selecting good components and configurations than ATI/AMD users? Obviously that seems unlikely.

    12. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If you're getting blue screens (and not just driver hangs / restarts) then you very likely have a physical hardware problem or a seriously, seriously screwed up machine.

      I was getting bluescreens in XPSP3 until I dropped from 266.58 to 191.07, I have a GT240. Meanwhile the card has been working in Linux excellently since I got it, although when I did I had to load a beta driver because it took nVidia ages to explicitly add support for my card to the Linux driver. It worked fine, although it misreported my model, temps, and clocks.

      However, if you think that restarts are not the new bluescreen, you are unqualified to even comment on this discussion. If you don't specify that Windows should NOT reboot after error then it will do so even on XPSP3 (not sure when this was made the default) and you will only see a bluescreen for a crash so bad it actually prevents the kernel from rebooting.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    13. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 1

      I built a new desktop recently and it was the first time I'd seen a BSOD in like 2 years.. Though it was a bad motherboard, a RMA later and no BSODS once more... Out of all things in a PC video cards tend to cause some of the fewest BSODS anymore. I have seen a card get hot causing driver restarts though. My poor old 3XXX series Radeon was put out to pasture because it's tolerance was failing.

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    14. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by MrHanky · · Score: 1

      I got those with my old Radeon 9800 Pro with the flimsy original cooler when I played Oblivion. After swapping the cooler for a bigger (and quieter) solution, I never had a crash. For some reason, it was only with Oblivion, and I never had the problem with any of my later cards.

      I'm pretty sure you have a hardware error.

    15. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by AbRASiON · · Score: 1

      My wording on restart was innaccurate. I mean the driver or an app restarts - the error is normally "Windows has suffered an error" or something. Sometimes explorer dies and then comes back. A true restart (bluescreen / reboot) is also quite bad and indicative generally of failed hardware.

      The fact is I don't get hard crash / freeze / blue screen or reboots under Windows 7 except in extremely rare circumstances. I have no problem with the 3 ATI cards I own.

    16. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by Paintballparrot · · Score: 1

      I have never had anything but problems with AMD products. IMO they make better space heaters than CPUs or GPUs, although I have never had to RMA 5 space heaters in 9 months. I ditched all of my AMD products last year and will never go back. I don't care who has the fastest graphics card in the world, I would still go with the Nvidia for reliability.

    17. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by Bigbutt · · Score: 1

      I pretty much get the same replies every time I mention it. "2002 is calling"."nVidia has bad drivers too." "I'm not having problems." "Troll." And of course folks who confirm they've had problems as well.

      I have the current drivers for my cards. I've sent the card back and it's been returned as testing fine. I've been in computers for 31 years and built my share of systems so I'm no newb. The error is the atikmpag.sys video driver every time.

      At the risk of being slashdotted:

      http://www.schelin.org/jpgshow.php?DSCN2481.JPG

      and

      http://www.schelin.org/20081004/index.html

      Even though the system has problems booting, once it's up it seldom has problems. The occasional screen reversing colors. I've suspected some heat related hardware issue (which was why I sent it back for testing) as it seems to be stable once up but even after running for a couple of hours, if I happen to reboot it, it can take a couple of blue screens before it finally comes up. And I have 50 Minidumps since Nov 17th and not every blue screen generates a minidump. At one point, it would simply cycle and power down.

      [John]

      --
      Shit better not happen!
    18. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

      Just upgraded drivers on my 4850, it can handle games at the highest resolutions my monitor supports. Or at least it could, new drivers have it crashing all the time. Had to lower settings, not good AMD not good.

    19. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by cynyr · · Score: 1

      There is still XP only software running around, and last i heard XP mode doesn't really work...

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    20. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Damn you and your truth! People come here to shout out their love and hate, unencumbered by the thought process, and there you go giving real world experience.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    21. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but now on Windows 7, instead of a blue screen, you get a fancy little box telling you that the video drivers had to be restarted. AMD cards still cause these problems, even with the newest drivers. I have never had driver issues with Nvidia cards, the only time my video drivers crashed was with a water cooling leak dripping on my video card near the power input section. After washing and drying out the video card for a few days, it functioned perfectly (still).

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    22. Re:Hope their drivers have improved by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      If a normal person has to go through that much work to setup a mobo, there is something wrong with the mobo designer. There should be default settings that take effect if the user does not decide to overclock which are perfectly stable.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  7. Drivers by _merlin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't give a shit about which is faster. Neither seem to be able to consistently write stable drivers. Video driver stability issues are far more of a problem than being 0.1% slower than the competition.

    1. Re:Drivers by hedwards · · Score: 1

      So, you use Intel? Or you don't use a graphics card at all? The reality is that at this point you're pretty much stuck with a card from one of those two companies because Intel hasn't released a graphics chip that is competitive since 2D performance was the focus.

      Personally, I haven't had much trouble with driver stability. The issue isn't the 0.1% or whatever it turns out to be, the issue is that those are the two companies that are competing to drive the technology forward. It's good for us to have them at each other like this, because what's a $700 card today in a couple years time is going to be what most people are using. Or will at least guide the improvements which benefit us all.

    2. Re:Drivers by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      On Linux you may have a point.

      That was the "true nerds" part. ;)

    3. Re:Drivers by houstonbofh · · Score: 4, Informative

      I haven't had a video driver issue with any video card from either NVIDIA or ATI/AMD for at least a few generations.. What systems and hardware are all these people with driver problems running?

      MSI motherboards? :)

    4. Re:Drivers by Auroch · · Score: 1

      Fair point but if you're interested in a 6990 or 590 I hardly think you'll care about Linux.

      You mean, running some of the fastest, best parallel processing cards available on one of the most customizable operating systems isn't a good idea? I guess I'll just stick with my intel chip for direct compute then.

      --
      Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
    5. Re:Drivers by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "For true nerds, nvidia is the only game in town."

      I was a nvidia fanboy since around the GF2 onward but I'm now a former nvidia nerd since I took a gamble on the 5870 and I have had no problems with it in any game I play.

      The only time's I've ever had issues is if I was pushing the card too hard (overclocking it) and overheating it. I imagine many peoples "blue screens" come from poor cooling/ventilation or bad powersupply.

    6. Re:Drivers by Daengbo · · Score: 1

      The open-source drivers for these cards are now fairly fast and super stable on Linux. I suggest you take a look.

      --
      Put identity in the browser.
    7. Re:Drivers by antdude · · Score: 1

      NVIDIA drivers aren't that good either. It has features that got pulled like fullscreen video overlays (e.g, 20" CRT TV from 1996 for me) with the newer cards and drivers. :(

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    8. Re:Drivers by Mathlol1 · · Score: 1

      Exactly

    9. Re:Drivers by _merlin · · Score: 1

      I have a Dell with ATI running Windows at work, and I'm using a certain ancient version of the video drivers because newer video drivers all cause stability issues. Another guy at work has an NVIDIA card and runs Ubuntu, but since the latest X release, enabling Compiz causes the machine to lock up on resizing a window (that's with binary blob drivers).

      At home I have a MacBook Pro i7 with Intel HD plus NVIDIA GeForce GT 330M. When I got it, there was a bug that caused the image to "disintegrate" on the automatic switch from NVIDIA to Intel on closing all OpenGL applications (some system update fixed it, though). I have a MacBook Core Duo with Intel GMA950, and it has issues hanging under heavy RAM/CPU load (e.g. 2xGCC + Eclipse) if an external display is connected. I've had no luck with any video card manufacturer.

    10. Re:Drivers by m50d · · Score: 1

      I've been running nvidia cards on MSI motherboards fine for years. (Asus on the other hand, don't talk to me about asus...)

      --
      I am trolling
    11. Re:Drivers by AbRASiON · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ahhh my mod points, do I rate you flamebait or just call you out?
      I used to be silly enough to believe what you just wrote. Infact! What you just wrote was absoloutely true - about a good TEN years ago,.. not 6, not 8 - 10 goddamn years.

      I believed the silly rumours you just posted up until about 4 or 5 years ago and my boss (who is actually a fanboy of ATI) suggested I get one, still I refused - eventually I read some reviews, saw the cost to speed ratio at that time was superior to nvidia and I caved and got an ATI card.
      Surprise surprise, no driver screwups, no faulty cards and I think I'm on my 3rd card since then. Generally the top end ATI cards are 90% as fast as the top end Nvidia but for 75% of the price. It's a completely logical choice when we're arguing about "do I want 140 fps or 120?"

      Also, nvidia just went through a terrible spell about 18 months back where they had nothing to offer and AMD thrashed them soundly, when nvidia did finally release a card which caught up, ATI was so far ahead they just released their next one - they missed an entire generation. I believe it was between the 2xx series and the 4xx series.

      Long story short, your post has far too many insightful points and an insufficient amount of overrated or flamebait points.

    12. Re:Drivers by scribblej · · Score: 1

      For true nerds, not buying into fallacious arguments is the only game in town.

    13. Re:Drivers by igomaniac · · Score: 1

      I'm working in a company that does Scientific Visualization, and we have driver issues on a regular basis and have to find workarounds for them. It's a big pain to do testing with all kinds of different configurations and try to work around the problems in the drivers. The reason you don't have driver issues is because you play games and the poor graphics programmers have had to work around all the issues in the drivers you're running. If you have some combination of driver/graphics card that the developers didn't test, chances are you're going to have issues.

      --

      The interactive way to Go -- http://www.playgo.to/iwtg/en/
    14. Re:Drivers by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Well, gee, 10 years... maybe I learned it on slashdot! Where it was true, and still is true. Because we're still running linux.

      And now 10 years later, you think I'm "flamebait" because I still don't consider windoze monkeys to be real nerds.

      Indeed, go find something semi-insightful to mod up, and quit trying to evangelize your *doze crap an nerdy.

    15. Re:Drivers by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      What is a "blue screen," I heard it is like a Snow Crash that only effects the brains of windoze drones.

    16. Re:Drivers by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      heh one of my most stable systems is a MSI motherboard and ATI

    17. Re:Drivers by Tobenisstinky · · Score: 1

      No, it's the Bitchen'fast 3Dx2000 Ultrapro GTXTX

      http://techbuket.net/161

      --
      wha'? where am i?
    18. Re:Drivers by Harik · · Score: 1

      Wait, I missed the announcement where nVidia dumped all their hardware internal documentation on the Xorg guys and said 'have fun'?

      There _IS_ no competition for linux until that happens, there's ATI and some proprietary vendor I never think of when buying cards.

    19. Re:Drivers by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "blue screen" is code, I've actually NEVER had a blue screen only reboots from o/c the card too far (legit reason).

  8. Drivers by Aighearach · · Score: 1, Insightful

    AMD doesn't even have good drivers, who cares what they hardware they put or don't put on their new card?

    For true nerds, nvidia is the only game in town.

  9. Driver quality by kimvette · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How about a driver stability shootout? Include the major platforms (Windows, OS X, and Linux) and compare:

      * Stability in desktop environments (Windows Aero/OS X/KDE/Gnome)
      * Stability in the major productivity apps (Office suites, Photoshop/Gimp/etc., Lightroom/Aperture/etc, Final Cut/Premiere, AutoCAD)
      * Stability in games
      * Ease of installation

    THAT is a shootout I would like to see. Even entry-level cards are "good enough" for casual gaming, and mid-range cards are great for even newer games at high resolution.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    1. Re:Driver quality by crafoo · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't even have to be that complex. I have had AMD drivers crash on malformed GLSL code. NVidia fails gracefully and either displays solid white for that render pass or just nothing. Hell I've had their ATI FireGL cards crash on bad GLSL code and GL is right there in the name!

    2. Re:Driver quality by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      Phoronix does these kinds of things all the time. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=category&item=Graphics%20Cards I wish more people know about it. And while they are a Linux Geek place, the benchmarks include Windows and OSX often.

    3. Re:Driver quality by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 1

      THAT is a shootout I would like to see. Even entry-level cards are "good enough" for casual gaming, and mid-range cards are great for even newer games at high resolution.

      First off, the two giants fight for the middle levels by cutting prices on the last-gen technology so there's nothing to report other than "it's 2011, you can get cutting-edge 2010 performance for 1/3rd the price". But everyone already knew that, and there's nothing new to report about the 2010-tech at a new price point.

      Second, entry levels cards don't make the kind of margins you need to sustain an 18-month release cycle while keeping the fabs busy.I'm quite glad that the hardware world obsesses over a few extra FPS because that pushes up the point where the last-gen cards get marked down to sane prices. So whenever I see a story like this, instead of thinking "Gee, why do they sell a $500 video card", I think the proper response is "Excellent, my $100 now goes a lot further".

      Finally, I have set to see any unstable graphics drivers in the past few years, either in Windows or Linux despite running an ungainly assortment of hardware (university group) with various low-end video cards (lots of 3D rendering, mostly using VMD, which is OpenGL). No issues installing the drivers in either Ubuntu or Fedora either, which helpfully provide one-click installation for the right blobs.

    4. Re:Driver quality by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      Speed is important. And it depends what bugs exactly you're referring to. But top end cards are for people who are gaming on multiple monitors or using 30 inch plus monitors, or otherwise 'end' cases, and even then they have multi thousand dollar versions if you're really serious about your graphics. Not that you can't get something out of a really good gpu, but if you're on a 22 inch display, by the time software catches up to needing all your top end hardware, there will be new technology not in your high end hardware.

      It's a bit like Fiat and Honda arguing over who makes the fastest F1 car to a crowd of ordinary consumers.

      *caveat: I have a ATI 5970 and i7 980, but I am decidedly an end case even though I only game on a 24 inch display I do game engines research and testing, with debugging on or when trying to do something new top end hardware can be ground to a halt pretty easily.

    5. Re:Driver quality by Auroch · · Score: 1

      Am I the only one who hasn't had video driver stability issues (on Windows) for YEARS? It could be a capacity issue with your PSU, or a heat problem with your case.

      And since when are KDE/Gnome "major" platforms? When your market share is within the margin of error, you're hardly "major"....

      I have instability on my windows machine ... but only when it's balancing on my lap. I don't have that problem with my MBP, it's too hot to hold on my lap, so I have to use a desk ...

      --
      Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
    6. Re:Driver quality by by+(1706743) · · Score: 1

      So take your Penguin...and go grep yourself.

      ...

      And for the record, I have...a Linux server in my house...

      Clearly you don't -- otherwise, you would've said, "go fsck yourself" ;)

    7. Re:Driver quality by antdude · · Score: 1

      Games, duh. :P Yes, you can play game in Linux.

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    8. Re:Driver quality by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Second, entry levels cards don't make the kind of margins you need to sustain an 18-month release cycle while keeping the fabs busy

      High end cards are probably the only loss leaders in the equation, by themselves. Yes, almost certainly in the green when it comes to their production itself - but they are primarily "positional" products of sorts, to give their lines better press (in other words: meant to increase the sales of mid & low segments), unable to recoup the R&D (but the same R&D is used and financed by mid & low segments)

      Cutting edge is just too niche... (look at Steam stats; and those are gamers)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    9. Re:Driver quality by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      How about a driver stability shootout?

      Both vendors would lose. I am getting better results with my GT240 with a 191 driver than with the new 266 driver. As in, it was bluescreening and now it's not. Seriously? At least I know better than to think ATI will do better. Screw me five times, shame on me...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:Driver quality by loufoque · · Score: 1

      AMD/ATI doesn't even work, so you can't even compare it.

    11. Re:Driver quality by Clueless+Moron · · Score: 1

      I have an HD5970 on my Linux box. It gets a good workout running stuff like XPlane, which really does need a decent video card.

  10. Re:the only problem with these state of the art ca by Auroch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    These sorts of cards are designed to run 3 x 30" 2560x1600 monitors at a decent frame rate.

    ...so gamers can get closer to the real life they don't have.

    I'm not sure why you think this is a bad thing. People play video games to avoid "real" life, so ... yeah, some gamers *are* looking for a life they don't have. Temporarily, to be sure. No one wants to be a black ops marine for any length of time when it involves torture and such. But in a game? Make that as lifelike as possible ... that's *why* I play games. To avoid real life. Because if real life was as interesting as, say, dragon age, I think I'd just go play that.

    --
    Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
  11. Re:That's absolutely true, but... by EdIII · · Score: 4, Funny

    What do Slashdot readers think about the scientific butter that awards crack addicted babies with even more?

    Thank You. Your comment, coupled with a couple of glasses of wine, just caused my brain to reboot.

    You are the equivalent of the crazy person that has uncontrolled outbursts on the subway that make the Mad Hatter seem cogent and lucid.

    +5 W.T.F

  12. You want to know who rigs benchmarks? by mykos · · Score: 1

    Take a look at HAWX 2, the only game in the universe where a GTX 460 beats a 6990

    1. Re:You want to know who rigs benchmarks? by mykos · · Score: 1

      Money speaks louder than words. And that Nvidia logo stamped all over their website, game box, and every time you start the game didn't come cheaply. I think the "AMD has bad drivers" theory seems a lot less likely.

  13. They have, kinda by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2

    So I have a 5870 and the drivers are for sure better than when it came out. Also ATi drivers are lots better than they were years ago. Used to be a time when I wouldn't touch ATi, they were crap. Now, as is obvious, I don't have a problem with them. I do not prefer them but I'll get them if they have an offering I like and nVidia does not (when I bought the card, nVidia did not have DX11 cards).

    So the drivers aren't horrible, but they aren't nVidia quality IMO. This is not only in terms of stability, but also features. nVidia provides some really excellent per-application profile support. You set stuff up and it just works. ATi's is a good deal more complex and not as smooth.

    1. Re:They have, kinda by Auroch · · Score: 1

      So I have a 5870 and the drivers are for sure better than when it came out. Also ATi drivers are lots better than they were years ago. Used to be a time when I wouldn't touch ATi, they were crap. Now, as is obvious, I don't have a problem with them. I do not prefer them but I'll get them if they have an offering I like and nVidia does not (when I bought the card, nVidia did not have DX11 cards).

      So the drivers aren't horrible, but they aren't nVidia quality IMO. This is not only in terms of stability, but also features. nVidia provides some really excellent per-application profile support. You set stuff up and it just works. ATi's is a good deal more complex and not as smooth.

      ... Not quite sure why you bought a card for DX11 ... by the time dx11 becomes relevant, the processing power required to use it will be much higher. And the first gen dx11 cards from ATI (the 5 series. I have one too) are absolutely terrible when rendering with dx11.

      As for nvidia being better than ATI for "smooth setup", have you ever owned a laptop with optimus? You'll change your mind on the "really excellent per-application profile support" comment. Because with optimus, nvidia doesn't have really excellent per-application profile support for windows.

      Otherwise, you are 100%, sir.

      --
      Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
    2. Re:They have, kinda by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

      Because I like new toys. Also the 5870 was the undisputed king when it came out. Nothing else is even close. It runs all the games I feed it very fast, and I play a ton of new games.

      In terms of being terrible at DX11, not in my observation. The main game I play that uses it is Bad Company 2, but it works very well. Game looks good and gets a speed boost using DX11.

      Should have I waited for a nVidia 400 series? Maybe, but I wanted a new card and I felt the 5870 was a worthwhile upgrade over what I had. I still have the 5870 because so far, I haven't seen anything that is a worthwhile upgrade to it. The 6000 and 500 series are faster, but not faster enough that it is worth the money. So the 5870 stays for now.

      Never owned a laptop with Optimus. My experiences are almost all desktop. With nVidia, you set override settings easily. You can set global ones, and then set other per app ones and they just activate as needed. With ATi, you have to activate profiles and all that.

      As for laptops I bought my first laptop not long ago, and it has a 5850M in it so ATi drivers are what I got. Never been much of a laptop guy, and I'd just take whatever cheapie work would give me when I traveled (which is not often, maybe twice a year).

    3. Re:They have, kinda by Vacuous · · Score: 2

      It's true ATI doesn't have NVIDIA quality drivers; I've never heard of ATI drivers destroying a card. The GTX 590 drivers, however, have a driver issue with their "power limiter" that is supposed to prevent card damaging overvolts. Then there is the whole fan debacle from the 196.75 drivers. I realize people are going say it's what they get for overclocking, but if you add a feature it isn't the user's fault for using it.

      [Sources]
      http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GeForce_GTX_590/26.html
      http://www.sweclockers.com/artikel/13710-geforce-gtx-590-brinner-i-sweclockers-testlabb-drivrutin-boven-i-dramat [Swedish]
      http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/53563/Nvidia-196-75-GPU-Drivers-Bugged-Causing-Fans-To-Fail-Cards-To-Overheat

    4. Re:They have, kinda by Auroch · · Score: 1

      Never owned a laptop with Optimus. My experiences are almost all desktop. With nVidia, you set override settings easily. You can set global ones, and then set other per app ones and they just activate as needed. With ATi, you have to activate profiles and all that.

      Yup. On a desktop. Not so much with optimus.

      --
      Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
    5. Re:They have, kinda by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Well, the current benchmarker's favorite, Dragon Age 2, nvidia was the one with utter driver failure. Essentially broken at release, and still producing significantly lower FPS counts on same settings as equivalent ATI card. So I'd say that when it comes to drivers, they both screw up every once in a while. Even on AAA titles.

    6. Re:They have, kinda by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      That wouldn't be a driver problem, that is a problem of the coders coding against AMD, not Nvidia. The game includes optimizations for AMD. Driver problems are evident when your computer crashes, or when the driver has to be reset in newer OSes.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    7. Re:They have, kinda by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Driver optimizations, and driver bugs are the single most common problem behind low fps and crashes both. There are several cases on record with ATI having similar problems.

      And your statement is moot as nvidia has openly stated that they will fix it with a driver update (and has already partially done so), which kind of underscores the "this is a driver problem" version of the story.

  14. AMD did not challenge, read the legalese by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The fine print on his blog states: "His postings are his own opinions and may not represent AMD’s positions, strategies or opinions". Unless an authorized, official representative of AMD officially challenges NVIDIA on graphics performance, the corporation 'AMD' is NOT challenging the corporation 'NVIDIA'. It is merely one opinion of the many employees at AMD.

    1. Re:AMD did not challenge, read the legalese by jd · · Score: 1

      Even the official comments will have disclaimers. I'm surprised the disclaimers don't have disclaimers. Not because I'm "for" one side or the other, but because I know that companies are risk-averse and lawyers like to add stuff they can charge for later.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    2. Re:AMD did not challenge, read the legalese by Auroch · · Score: 1

      The fine print on his blog states: "His postings are his own opinions and may not represent AMD’s positions, strategies or opinions". Unless an authorized, official representative of AMD officially challenges NVIDIA on graphics performance, the corporation 'AMD' is NOT challenging the corporation 'NVIDIA'. It is merely one opinion of the many employees at AMD.

      That's right, one of the senior marketing managers posts on an official blog that their product is better, and he wants to test it against the competitor. CLEARLY that's not an official comment.

      --
      Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
  15. If I were nVidia by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'd say sure, and lay out a set of OpenGL benchmarks and utilities to try. Reason is ATi's OpenGL drivers have never been as good. They aren't horrible, but they are not as good as their DX drivers. nVidia, however, supports both APIs as native and they are both just as fast.

    Rigged? Sure, but it makes a point: It is all in what you want to do that determines what is the fastest.

    In terms of Windows games it looks like the 6990 is the faster card. Of course it is something where if ti matters at all is really questionable. You are talking like "Which card lets you get slightly higher FSAA settings with a game running at max quality in 5,760x1200?" HardOCP generally found the 6990 was the winner, but it was small things like that. The 590 would have no FSAA, they 6990 could have 2x FSAA or whatever.

    So maybe it matters if you have 3 24" monitors, but if not the real meat of it is that both cards are way faster than you need and will run things great.

    Either marketing department can find things to claim they are the "Fastest" I'm sure. If you care depends on what you do.

    1. Re:If I were nVidia by makomk · · Score: 1

      I'd say sure, and lay out a set of OpenGL benchmarks and utilities to try. Reason is ATi's OpenGL drivers have never been as good.

      Clever idea but there aren't many, if any, OpenGL benchmarks or games that can give these cards a good workout. You'd just end up comparing one ludicrously high framerate to another ludicrously high framerate - the difference would be entirely irrelevant to actual gamers.

    2. Re:If I were nVidia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      StarCraft 2, World of Warcraft can both run in OpenGL.

    3. Re:If I were nVidia by sparrowhead · · Score: 1

      You're right. There are not a lot of them.

      It's still 2 months till the release of Brink, which will be an OpenGL game and a year or so till the relase of Rage. Until then the newest titles i know of are Enemy Territory - Quake Wars and Wolfenstein (MP only). Both of them aren't stressing for a modern gaming rig.

      I know of 2 synthetic benchmarks, that'll certainly stress even the newest graphic cards: Furmark and the unigine engine's benchmarks.

    4. Re:If I were nVidia by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 1

      While not the highest end card you can buy... I have run both of those benchmarks on a 6950 (flashed to be a 6970) and those don't even stress it. That was with a old Athlon 64 x2 6500+ cpu system with DDR2 memory.

      As much as I hate their methods (namely wanting hefty money to even be able to do simple things like saving results), futuremark does a much better job of constantly updating to stress each generation of cards.

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    5. Re:If I were nVidia by Haeleth · · Score: 1

      Of course it is something where if ti matters at all is really questionable. You are talking like "Which card lets you get slightly higher FSAA settings with a game running at max quality in 5,760x1200?"

      Precisely. Most people buy video cards to play games. The vast majority of games are graphically crippled by the obsolete technology in current consoles. There are basically no AAA PC exclusives any more -- even Crysis has shifted its attention to the console market. And apparently there's no plan to improve console technology until 2015 now?

      No point upgrading for a while, I guess. By the time anything appears that can make proper use of these cards, their price will have fallen at least 90%. Thanks for the selfless subsidies, early adopters!

    6. Re:If I were nVidia by cynyr · · Score: 1

      Heaven is quite the stress test, first time i heard my gpu fans spin up.

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      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
  16. Re:CUDA by sanman2 · · Score: 1

    Big deal, AMD and Apple support OpenCL, so NVIDIA's CUDA isn't the only game in town.

  17. Slashdot is a PIECE OF SHIT!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Hello, What the fuck /. ! Post My comment already You Fucks !

  18. Yeah but, ATI still unstable... by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Informative

    OK, to be fair it's been over a year since I ran ATI hardware (a 4650), but I replaced it with nvidia hardware because I couldn't get the darn thing to stop crashing. I miss my ATI hardware. It has nicer image quality and better tv out/in support for my old TV card and games. I ran a 1650 for years, but than again that was just an overclocked 9800, and every bug under the sun was worked out 10 times over on that. Maybe it's my fault for running less popular games, but come 'on. Psychonauts should not crash like clockwork just because the floaty neon things are on screen...

    I guess what I'm saying it, AMD, call me when you're drivers can run something other than this years Call of Duty game & WoW

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    1. Re:Yeah but, ATI still unstable... by Mathlol1 · · Score: 1

      Pretty much.

    2. Re:Yeah but, ATI still unstable... by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 1

      I haven't run anything other than an Ati card in a decade in my desktops at home. I have rarely than ever had a crash caused by a video driver.

      I haven't had any big issues with Nvidia cards at work either.

      Well in windows at least... I've had tons of problems with both in linux. I think the powers behind linux seriously need to look into how the companies handle video drivers so both can stop crapping all over linux.

      However your view "call me when you're drivers can run something other than this years Call of Duty game & WoW" is way off the mark as I don't run either and still have no issues. I think far more people aren't having driver issues, but hardware issues that may not even be specific to the video cards.

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    3. Re:Yeah but, ATI still unstable... by yoshi_mon · · Score: 1

      Your sample size and personal observation can only make for a huge change in the way AMD does things.

      [/snark]

      Seriously, why the hell was this modded up? My 5670 rocks the house with every single game that I've been playing on it and that is WITH it being dual-homed with an NVidia onboard GPU that I use for my 2nd monitor. I think a lot of the credit to them playing well goes to Win7. The point remains that my 5670 has done just fine for me but that is only my opinion and it is just that. One persons sample does not make for a real observation.

      Remember, we are trying to be geeks here. Please try to post accordingly.

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    4. Re:Yeah but, ATI still unstable... by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

      What games do you play? nVidia seems to have better support for less common games. I had trouble with Psyconauts, The Witcher & Dark Crusader of Might and Magic. All B-List stuff (not in quality, but by sales :(, I guess that's why PC gaming is so weak right now ). I really would like to hear back from you if you've got a list of obscure stuff that you played through w/o crashes. But I played a lot of Call of Duty on that 4670 (I know, I typed the wrong # in my post the first time), 12+ hours and no crash, but I could crash Psyconauts and Witcher like clockwork.

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  19. 3d support by strack · · Score: 1

    hey, i got a idea, they can do the benchmarks in stereoscopic shutter glasses 3d. that is, if amd has any real support for it yet.

    1. Re:3d support by Auroch · · Score: 1

      hey, i got a idea, they can do the benchmarks in stereoscopic shutter glasses 3d. that is, if amd has any real support for it yet.

      Sounds good. Maybe we can use 6 different 3d displays at the same time! ... oh wait ...

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      Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
  20. Re:That's absolutely true, but... by Auroch · · Score: 1

    What do Slashdot readers think about the scientific butter that awards crack addicted babies with even more?

    Thank You. Your comment, coupled with a couple of glasses of wine, just caused my brain to reboot.

    You are the equivalent of the crazy person that has uncontrolled outbursts on the subway that make the Mad Hatter seem cogent and lucid.

    +5 W.T.F

    Purple monkey dishwasher.

    --
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  21. Re:That's absolutely true, but... by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 1

    Thank you for pointing that out because I read right through that without even realising just how fucked up that was. After seeing your response I had to go back and read it again a few times while my brain just kind of stared at it dumbly asking "Alright what am I looking at and what do you want me to do with this?"

    --
    A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
  22. It's a matter of life and death to AMD by UBfusion · · Score: 1

    Giving up mod points in this thread just to say that I don't care which gfx card in the universe is faster. What matters to me is that AMD is kept alive and kicking, so that competition stays healthy & fierce for the benefit of all of us.

    What do you think would happen to Intel & Nvidia prices if AMD went bankrupt? This is why I still buy and recommend AMD gear.

  23. Nvidia cripples their opengl drivers.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Haha nvidia and opengl ? The gtx285 kicks all the new cards because nvidia made the decision to cripple the consumer cards. You should google glreadpixels and gtx480... They crippled their drivers so that they can sell more quadro cards.

    http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=284014&page=1
    http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=181574

    1. Re:Nvidia cripples their opengl drivers.... by makomk · · Score: 1

      Haha nvidia and opengl ? The gtx285 kicks all the new cards because nvidia made the decision to cripple the consumer cards. You should google glreadpixels and gtx480... They crippled their drivers so that they can sell more quadro cards.

      AMD's consumer cards have been crippled less than NVidia's full stop (for example, compare the double-precision support).

  24. GTX 590 burning due to bad driver support by davFr · · Score: 2

    Want to see a GTX 590 burning because of some shitty nVidia drivers? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRo-1VFMcbc&feature=player_embedded
    Now I am wondering who has bad drivers .... ATI, really?
    Anyway, I am running Linux most of the time, and nVidia Linux support is really shitty. Sometimes, I am wondering if they still hire software engineers.

    --
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  25. AMD and Nvidia, Take a FOSS challange by xiando · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I own a AMD chip which I use. I also own a useless Nvidia chip. I use GNU/Linux and I use the free r600g driver with KMS. I really don't care how the cards are doing in the Windows world. I also don't care about their closed source binary blob Linux drivers. What I do care about is the support and performance of the free drivers.
    The only thing I would like to see is a free software/free driver challenge between the two. Everything else does not matter. I never tried how any of them are doing in the Windows world, but my impression from what I have read is that it comes down to drivers there too and Nvidia seems to be doing better than AMD in the windows world.
    Hardware really doesn't matter if there's not software to utilize it.

    --
    9/11: Never forget it was a false-flag operation
    1. Re:AMD and Nvidia, Take a FOSS challange by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I own a AMD chip which I use. I also own a useless Nvidia chip. I use GNU/Linux and I use the free r600g driver with KMS. I really don't care how the cards are doing in the Windows world. I also don't care about their closed source binary blob Linux drivers. What I do care about is the support and performance of the free drivers.

      I own a netbook which runs Windows because there is no Linux driver for its video. It has an R690M chipset which means it has old and shitty video which I felt would be well-supported. NOPE! Actually, AMD changed stuff and then didn't tell anyone what it was, so the free driver produces trashing on my notebook and it always has. There's no tools for me to run to produce useful debugging info. AMD doesn't even SUPPORT my chipset in the fglrx driver because it's so old and therefore it is supposed to work with the free driver. So basically AMD has deliberately cut off support for the machine... actually, they released a machine which NEVER had Linux support. And now I own it. They also didn't bother to contribute power scaling features for the Athlon 64 L110 processor that's in it, so you only get power saving with sketchy patches to the Linux kernel.

      AMD cut me adrift without a thought. I bought the thing on the assumption that AMD cared about the OSS driver, but they do not. An AMD logo means nothing. An nVidia logo means I will be able to use hardware that I buy with Linux because their driver supports even very old hardware. The closed driver works just fine; actually, it WORKS, where no other driver path to OpenGL is even close to the spec on Linux. Ask Mozilla if you don't believe me. Or really, ask anybody.

      Hardware really doesn't matter if there's not software to utilize it.

      --
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    2. Re:AMD and Nvidia, Take a FOSS challange by Haeleth · · Score: 1

      Hardware really doesn't matter if there's not software to utilize it.

      There is software to utilize it. It's pretty good, really. I use it every day and it has not let me down yet, unlike the open-source Intel drivers which seem to break completely every alternate release.

      You have apparently chosen not to touch NVidia's Linux driver on ideological grounds, as is your right; but that does not alter the fact that it exists.

    3. Re:AMD and Nvidia, Take a FOSS challange by Kjella · · Score: 1

      The only thing I would like to see is a free software/free driver challenge between the two.

      Well that would be a walkover because nVidia doesn't play in that category. Whatever you may have heard of the Nouveau driver, it is not done by nVidia, they don't want the project, they don't help them with documentation, specifications or answer questions. It is not in any shape or form nVidia's project.

      The only thing nVidia has open sourced - and even that is arguable since it was obfuscated - is an extremely simple 2D only driver, which is in maintenance mode and will never support Fermi+ graphics cards, DisplayPort or any form of acceleration. Now they ask you to limp on the VESA driver until you can install their proprietary driver.

      To be honest I don't get the Nouveau project at all, fair enough maybe these people have nVidia cards they want to make work but it looks like mission impossible. At least with AMD you do have the company's specs and backing and still it seems a very hard problem to solve. And you could work on all the common issues in the open source stack, of which there are plenty...

      --
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    4. Re:AMD and Nvidia, Take a FOSS challange by hduff · · Score: 1

      The only thing I would like to see is a free software/free driver challenge between the two. Everything else does not matter.

      But will you and the three other guys that it matters to actually read the article on the challenge, or just wait for the synopsis on Slashdot?

      --
      "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
    5. Re:AMD and Nvidia, Take a FOSS challange by onefriedrice · · Score: 1

      I use Linux. Fortunately, nvidia does have the software to utilitize their hardware. It's too bad they can't open it due to licensing issues (which may or may not be under their practical control), but at least it works which is more than can be said for ATI's drivers and some of the free drivers. Nevertheless, I'm not going to lose sleep over a binary blob in the kernel any more than I am going to call my operating system "GNU/Linux." If it works, it works.

      --
      This author takes full ownership and responsibility for the unpopular opinions outlined above.
    6. Re:AMD and Nvidia, Take a FOSS challange by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Your problem is that you don't understand that people have different ends in mind. It's the fundamental difference between Windows and Linux... Do you want something that is quick and easy to setup in the simple cases, which will have numerous problems and require constant fiddling, and in the complex cases can't be made to work at all? Or do you want to spend a bit more time to get everything in a good state, where everything will work perfectly, be trivial to keep up to date, and just keep working without any thought given, for years?

      In your specific case, the binary blobs simply aren't as stable as their open source equivalents, won't continue to work forever (discontinuing support on newer systems, and the old blob will be incompatible with future kernels), won't be upgraded.by the normal system upgrade process (tim/apt), etc.

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    7. Re:AMD and Nvidia, Take a FOSS challange by Plombo · · Score: 1

      The only thing I would like to see is a free software/free driver challenge between the two.

      Well that would be a walkover because nVidia doesn't play in that category. Whatever you may have heard of the Nouveau driver, it is not done by nVidia, they don't want the project, they don't help them with documentation, specifications or answer questions. It is not in any shape or form nVidia's project.

      The only thing nVidia has open sourced - and even that is arguable since it was obfuscated - is an extremely simple 2D only driver, which is in maintenance mode and will never support Fermi+ graphics cards, DisplayPort or any form of acceleration. Now they ask you to limp on the VESA driver until you can install their proprietary driver.

      As a user, it doesn't matter who wrote the driver. All that matters is how well it works, with or without the support of nVidia.

      To be honest I don't get the Nouveau project at all, fair enough maybe these people have nVidia cards they want to make work but it looks like mission impossible. At least with AMD you do have the company's specs and backing and still it seems a very hard problem to solve. And you could work on all the common issues in the open source stack, of which there are plenty...

      What makes you think it's "mission impossible"? Just take a look at recent 3D benchmarks; Nouveau's 3D performance is already competitive with the nVidia blob on virtually all recent cards except the very high-end ones.

      Sure, it's far from having feature parity with the blob in most areas. I'm aware that it has stability issues on some hardware. But its mission of usable drivers for nVidia hardware is far from impossible - the progress that has already been made is impressive, and it's getting better very fast.

  26. Who cares about cards? by davFr · · Score: 1

    Consumers should better be interested in the efficiency of the 3D engines, such as CryEngine, UnrealEngine or FrostByte!

    In 2007, I bought an ATI HD3570 in order to play Crysis, and it performed perfectly.
    Today, Crysis 2 is out, it looks just about the same graphical complexity as Crysis 1, but I am expected to get a new 3D card to play the game in good condition. NO, THANK YOU!

    I am fed with the game developers artificially driving the sale of lateset expensive, 3D cards from ATI and nVidia.
    It reminds me when Intel and Microsoft allied to push users to get the very latest CPU and twice more RAM to run the new version of Windows.

    --
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    1. Re:Who cares about cards? by Harik · · Score: 1

      actually you picked a terrible example - Crysis 2 was written for consoles and ported to PC, which means it's didn't even support DX11 on release, and it certainly doesn't have a DX11 optimized workflow. The levels are smaller, more confined, the textures have to fit in console RAM, etc. You're not missing
      out on anything by not having a new card.

  27. Re:Heh by jones_supa · · Score: 1

    Best of both worlds!

  28. Take a FOSS challenge - at full capability by bradm · · Score: 1

    If you're going to spend $700 on a video card, you'll probably spend on monitors too, especially since monitors tend to have a longer usable life cycle than video cards.

    Show me free software/free drivers running four to six physical displays with full 3d acceleration. Let me choose whether it's a single desktop with one logical display, a single desktop with multiple logical displays, or multiple desktops. While I'd personally prefer GNU/Linux of a Debian flavor, ship it for any open environment you want, we'll take care of the rest.

    Ship this software environment at the same time you release the card. Betas and patches are fine. Yes, that means collaborate in advance, and leave behind the last vestiges of pretense about competitive advantage via secrecy. Marketing, do-not-discuss-before-date NDAs are fine. Withholding the engineering data that will eventually be public anyway is counterproductive.

  29. Actually... by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

    That's not always true.

    (FF4 came out rather well).

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  30. Nobody cares. by WheatGrass · · Score: 1

    I've been trying to be a modest AMD fanboy for more than a decade. Yet, seeing AMD engage in smack talk is disturbing. Even if NVIDIA is correct in its claim, I would rather see AMD directing finances towards 1) improving upon the stability and functionality of the Catalyst software suite and 2) a more usable driver download website. This, basically, amounts to AMD treating its software / driver developers better. Licensing SLI technology from NVIDIA would also be nice of AMD. That way, I could yank my Radeon HD X2 and replace it with a more stable graphics option, without purchasing a non-AMD chipset motherboard -should AMD fail to address items 1 and 2.

  31. Re:the only problem with these state of the art ca by cynyr · · Score: 1

    how about 1 30" monitor at 7680 x 4800?

    now thats getting to the correct pixel density. Or better yet 3 or 6 of them, while decoding a bluray to play on my spare monitor...

    --
    All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
  32. Stop pissing on the drivers, it's the games. by Enonu · · Score: 1

    I have a pair of XFX Radeon 6870s in CrossFire at the moment. The recent Control Center rewrite combined with the performance upgrades for the 11.4 drivers (still in testing) make it seems like AMD is really caring for a quality customer experience these days.

    However, the latest games that could take advantage of this hardware, aren't. "Can it play Crysis" is a fucking joke now since Crysis 2 was just released with buggy/failed CrossFire/SLI support. That and the configuration options for graphics quality have been reduced to resolution and an enumeration (high, very high, extreme). The title that had the potential to demonstrate the power of today's latest cards shows that it's just a POS console port. Crytek failed the basic customer Crysis originally catered to.

    Sure there are other games out there that can stress out today's platform a touch, but they are last years games. It also seems like it's a 50/50 chance that a game released for PC this year will be another console port, and in turn have the quality and QA such a title is expected to have: piss poor.

    I have a sinking feeling that being a PC gamer is nothing more than being an alpha tester for the 2015 consoles.

    1. Re:Stop pissing on the drivers, it's the games. by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      "I have a sinking feeling that being a PC gamer is nothing more than being an alpha tester for the 2015 consoles."

      its been like that for decades

    2. Re:Stop pissing on the drivers, it's the games. by zigfreed · · Score: 1

      In addition, Crysis was the topic when showing that PhysX is not optimized for x87, even though x87 is part of the Crytek system requirements. Although one may think that "it works on one graphics card but not the other" is a hardware deficiency, the software/game may rely on a bug or error elsewhere in the OS to operate correctly. The only way to be certain is to compile it from source.

    3. Re:Stop pissing on the drivers, it's the games. by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I have a sinking feeling that being a PC gamer is nothing more than being an alpha tester for the 2015 consoles.

      Stop playing games made by EA and that feeling goes away.

      Seriously, I was going to buy Crysis 2 yesterday, but reading the system requirements it said "an internet connection is required to install and play online". I put the game back on the shelf, my A$80 (US$80.50) back into it's wallet and walked out of the store. Upon reading reveiws such as yours I'm glad, no-one I've spoken to has said anything favourable about the game.

      DRM lost a sale, in fact given the general low quality I'm not even sure it's worth the bandwidth to download. I'm sure Cevat Yerli's going to have a big cry about piracy again. He just wont get that his game wont sell because it's buggy and generally the gameplay is pretty meh.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  33. Re:the only problem with these state of the art ca by Carewolf · · Score: 1

    Actually most PC games run perfectly fine on '03 hardware. High-end 2003 hardware I admit (actually high-end 2001 hardware with a 2003 GPU upgrade) but still more powerful than an xbox360, and thus perpetually fast enough (until xbox360 is retired).

  34. Re:Graphics cards need to go the other way. by tompaulco · · Score: 1

    I only see reference to one game that runs 1080p. Maybe there are more, but google didn't bring them up in the first couple of pages. So the ipad can do 30 fps at 1080p on a single screen? Impressive (still won't buy one). Can it do greater than 1080p resolution on three screens at 60 fps? No? Huh.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  35. Re:Benchmarks by tompaulco · · Score: 1

    Something is wrong with these specs when the GTX 480 shows higher marks than it's next generations (GTX5**) biggest brother (GTX590). But it does still show the 6900 beating the 590. I am not sure where you got the 5990 from. I'm not aware that there is such a card.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  36. I'm afraid... by jezzarisky · · Score: 1

    from the benchmarks I've seen, NEITHER has the superior solution this time. Sure AMD's claim on a synthetic benchmark may be better, but as far as games go, it's a pretty big toss up, some games play better with AMD, others with NVIDIA. AMD is just being douchey about picking a fight, just like NVIDIA has in the past. I hate rivalries.

  37. Re:the only problem with these state of the art ca by Coren22 · · Score: 1

    Have you actually found any that output that much res? Cause the only ones I have seen run at 2560x1600. Apple, Dell, HP, frankly, they even use the same panel from the same manufacturers.

    --
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  38. Um. No one Cares. by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    There are about 3 people in the world than can afford to pay for those 700$ bleeding edge video cards so who gives a damn. About the ONLY practical thing about it, is people MIGHT see some high end technology that they MIGHT put into an affordable card SOMEDAY.

    Now pit your 150-250$ cards against each other on identical machines, against identical software (*cough* games *cough*), with what drivers you plan to ship the damn things with, then THROW DOWN. I might be interested then.

    As much as I like to see a Lamborghini VS a Ferrari I don't really care all that much as I cannot and will not ever be able to actually own either one.