Syrians Using Donkeys Instead of DSL After Gov't Shuts Down Internet

abhatt writes "Rebelling Syrians are using all possible alternate methods to pass information to the world amidst a total blackout on the internet by the Government. Believe it or not, Donkeys are a part of the revolution now. From the article: 'To get the news out, activists have been smuggling videos to Jordan through the desert and across a nearly 80-kilometer border Jordan shares with Syria. Some risk approaching the border with Jordanian cellphones to report to the outside world and send clips. It's a dangerous task because the Syrian and Jordanian armies traditionally have the area under heavy surveillance to prevent the smuggling of drugs and weapons into the kingdom or further to the Gulf states.'"

Comments

I have only one question

[countertrolling]

When does the invasion start? Has the UN already drawn up the paperwork?

Okay.. two questions.. Sue me..

Re:I have only one question

[Hazel Bergeron]

Hey, Operation Make Lazy Westerners Think That Pushing A Few Bits Is Contributing To Freedom comes first.

Your Twitter account needs you!

Re:I have only one question

[blind biker]

When does the invasion start? Has the UN already drawn up the paperwork?

Never. Somehow, the politicians of the world have somehow convinced the public that it's A-OK to bomb Libyan troops and hardware for attacking civilians, but it's totally NOT OK to bomb the Syrian troops and hardware, even though they are doing exactly the same things as Libyan troops.

And all the while, the world public opinion is completely fine with North Korean regime's massive torture and murder in concentration camps, of their own civilian population.

"Double standards" doesn't even begin to describe the hypocrisy. We do live in a hugely fucked up world.

Re:I have only one question

[Intrepid imaginaut]

And all the while, the world public opinion is completely fine with North Korean regime's massive torture and murder in concentration camps, of their own civilian population.

World opinion isn't completely fine with it, however world opinion recognises that using force to free the prisoners will probably result in a vastly greater loss of innocent life than pursuing a course of brinkmanship and slow embargoes with NK.

Re:I have only one question

[LurkerXXX]

And if the UN attacks North Korea, the batshit insane leader will start lobbing nukes.

Unfortunately the world is a little more complex than you'd make out. Yes, leaders of both places are evil. The consequences for attacking one can be vastly different than that for another. It sucks, but that's reality.

Re:I have only one question

[he-sk]

Welcome to the world of politics. The West intervened in Libya because Gaddafi somehow [1] managed to alienate everybody (who counts) in the world. He had no friends left. OTOH, Syria is allied with Iran. And while China isn't exactly a friend of North Korea, they'd still object to Western intervention so close to home (as they did 60 years ago).

It has nothing to do with double standards or hypocrisy. It's all about choosing the battles you can win and avoiding those you'll lose, so you can fight another time.

[1] Which was quite a feat, if you think about it.

Re:I have only one question

[Dunbal]

It's all about choosing the battles you can win

Please explain Afghanistan...

Re:I have only one question

[countertrolling]

It became ok to bomb Libya when a replacement was found that would honor all the weapons contracts.. And the cost/benefit ratio doesn't yet justify invading Korea.. It's not about hypocrisy.. It's about the money.. I do see a strategic/economic interest in Syria though for keeping Iraq (and thus Iran) under control, and basically destabilizing the region for the benefit of our real 'friend'.. and opening up the land route to Europe for Afghanistan's heroin (See Iran/contra for a related scenario) The opium wars never ended..

Re:I have only one question

[countertrolling]

Poppies...poppieeees... sleep.. sleeeeep

Re:I have only one question

[andydread]

Not exactly the same thing. The Syrian army just started using tanks THIS WEEK. They have not razed entire cities to the ground with rocket trucks and Jet aircraft like Colonel Qaddafi has done There is no call from the Syrian people for a NO-FLY-ZONE because they are not getting bombed to oblivion like Qaddafi was doing to his people. So no its not the same thing not even close.

Also there is not infinite resourses to go after every dictator that turns small arms and light armor at their people. I don't see North Koreans calling for a NO-FLY-ZONE over N-Korea. Nor are they threating to raze entire cities to the ground.

The dynamics of each and every situation in each country are totally different. There is not a one size fit all approach that will work for every single situation.

Re:I have only one question

[Shienarier]

There is also the question of resources. Doesn't even seem to be enough NATO planes to stop Gaddafi, and you want them to take on North Korea?

No, people aren't "fine" with any of that.
We just live in the real world.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

Dubya thought Afghanistan would be easy.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

Donkeys are a good lay. Try it some time. It's not like you can get a girl.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

The UN and the world doesn't work on idealism.

Even though many people want Syria to stop and think that bombing them would achieve that, its simply not feasible to do it. Every situation and every country are different, and the repercussions of doing the same thing would be different.

For example, bombing the DPRK would in all likelihood result in them bombing Seoul back and killing tens of thousands of people; hence the international community can't do it. Bombing Syria would require the use of either Israeli bases (which would be completely unacceptable to everyone in the middle east - probably even many of the rebels' supporters) or Turkish ones, which they would almost certainly not let NATO do to carry out offensive operations. Also, that would kill any negotiations with Iran on all matters for a very long time, a sacrifice which even if it is worth making is a consideration.

To use military force several criteria are needed:
1) For it to help people
2) For it to be possible to carry out the operation
3) To have good reasons to believe it will work

The first criteria might apply in North Korea and Syria; but thats not enough. In Libya people believed that all 3 criteria were held. If you can make a valid well reasoned argument that the other two are held as well, then by all means do and I, for one, will listen.

Call it double standards if you want; the fact is its pragmatism.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no double standard. The answer is *so* simple. But most people live in a fantasy world where "altruism" is the ideal. A fantasy world someone told them, to feed off of them.
Because in reality, every life in all of the universe either gets as much growth as possible (normally through getting more resources and more efficient) and therefore uses other life for that goal,⦠or gets used for the growth of someone else. (The latter includes everyone who now goes "No, what you say is wrong. Altruism is good!" and doesn't say it to get others to work for him.)

So the world generally doesn't give a fuck about others. Unless they offer some useful resource. Like Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.

It's. as. fuckin. simple. as. that.

Re:I have only one question

[II Xion II]

I see a lot of this type of thinking and while it is certainly genuine to question why we intervened in Libya and not in Syria, Bahrain, etc. it still must be put into perspective.

1.) Given the recent revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt that overthrew their local dictators largely through peaceful protest, when Libya started cracking down extremely hard against their part in the Arab Spring, there was a massive outcry both internally and externally. Many Libyan units were seemingly defecting, protests were all over the country, officers had refused to attack citizens, and major figures defected. Despite this though, Gaddafi and his sons kept up the delusional rhetoric and spoke of massacres as they responded with pure military force. The Arab League, human rights organizations, and other countries were ratcheting up calls for a NFZ and finally at the last possible second (well after when it would have been most effective) that was implemented by the United Nations with BRIC and Germany abstaining but no vetoes by the Security Council. This stopped a very significant advance by Gaddafi on Benghazi after Ajdabiya had fell. The unique circumstances of the Arab Spring, the brutal crackdown in Libya, and a lot of support for protecting Libyans from the Gaddafi regime from all over the world led to the Western intervention in Libya by U.N. mandate. Does Syria, Bahrain, Yemen, etc. have all those conditions at play to even approach that level? Surely they have brutal regimes that have cracked down, but the mass defections are not present (some exceptions in Yemen) nor are the peaceful prior outcomes of Egypt and Tunisia (now that civil war in Libya has interrupted such positions won't likely be taken again).

2.) Be skeptical all you like, I firmly believe this was a humanitarian-driven intervention. The United States was dead-set against intervention til the last possible minute and even now has taken a back seat in the conflict. The West had wonderful relations with Libya after 2003 or so when Libya opened themselves to Western business and made nice political allies in Western Europe. Sacrificing all that stability and business for oil we already had access to makes no sense except to conspiracy theorists and extreme cynics. Intervention was driven by international unanimity for the most part with the usual regimes backing away from outright support (Russia and China for obvious reasons given their suppression of free speech as well as many Arab nations that didn't support it publicly due to Western interventionism PR and their own monarchical regimes). So the question is, is humanitarian intervention militarily a solution? Does it cause more harm than good? All debatable. We don't know what would have happened had Gaddafi crushed Cyraenica compared to the bloodshed now. Libya would have been more stable, but is a brutal regime of stability better than a possibility of a fresh start? Tough to say, especially with tribal-driven loyalties in Libya. I don't believe that all these rebels are Al Qaeda though as some may claim, many are former professionals, educated Libyans, and come from diverse backgrounds all to stand against the fascist and brutal regime of Gaddafi who massacred many en masse and now they have taken up arms against him and his rule. I feel it's a noble cause. Is it that simple though? No. Is it for the best? Who knows. Only time will tell.

We cannot intervene everywhere for humanitarian purposes for matter of expediency, pragmatism, temporal factors, global support, etc. But when there is so much call for help and support for it, then I feel internationally we should and have an obligation to whether it be in Ivory Coast (like we did), Rwanda, or Burma. I don't support the "white man's burden" argument, but I do support intervention when there is clear near unanimous support for intervention, a multi-national and cross-cultural military team, and a very clear threat to many lives and livelihoods like with genocides (in addition to internal support for that cause). And I think Libya is a very

Re:I have only one question

[Black Parrot]

Doesn't even seem to be enough NATO planes to stop Gaddafi

It baffles me that the Western Powers would think that "a little bit" of intervention would work. What's the end game for this scenario?

Or is this another one that's intended to last forever?

Re:I have only one question

[hedwards]

When the US invaded we could have won. However, Bush wasn't willing to expend the resources and troops necessary to make it happen instead siphoning them off for that stupid crusade in Iraq. The US was winning until the government took its eye off the ball and allowed the insurgents to regain their footing.

You don't win wars based upon strategy, you win them on logistics, and here in the US we pretty much gave it away by stretching ourselves too thing based purely upon arrogance.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you remember the political atmosphere after September 11th? That, in a nutshell, is why the Afghanistan war started. It was as much a spasm of anger as a well thought out intervention. Sure, maybe Afghanistan is unwinnable. But in many ways the US didn't choose it as a battleground, it was pulled into it in a dramatic fashion not seen since Pearl Harbor. It was politically untenable for the US government not to invade Afghanistan after September 11th.

A better example for your case would probably be Iraq, since it wasn't done as a knee jerk reaction to a national tragedy and should have been thought out better because of that. America had the option of not doing that one. Except Iraq was winnable, just it ended up being an imperfect victory at tremendous cost.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah cause guantanamo bay is like a holiday resort.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

I know, it would be so awesome if US could invade all the countries simultaneously. But alas we can only do so much. Maybe the Syrians form a rebel government and ask Israel to help them. Man that would be trolling.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

lucky america isn't bat shit insane enough to go start nukeing a country when they get desprete.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

Same thing happened to the nazis.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot [2] Oil .

Which was really [1] as far as the West was concerned.

Re:I have only one question

[Khashishi]

Can someone point me to a credible report which documents Kim Jong Il's mental health?

Re:I have only one question

[cold fjord]

Please explain Afghanistan...

What is it you don't understand?

After the 9/11 attacks, the US issued an ultimatum to the Taliban government - hand over Bin Laden, or else.
The Taliban refused, so the US assisted the Northern Alliance and others in the country to overthrow the Taliban government by providing Special Forces and air support. The Taliban withdrew and began a low level guerilla insurgency while Al Qaeda eventually fled. When the US invaded Iraq in 2003 and overthrew Saddam's government, Al Qaeda rallied and funneled their forces to fight in Iraq. Events in Iraq began to come unhinged after some spectacular attacks by Al Qaeda and other Sunni groups. The US revamped its counter-insurgency doctrine and strategy, and began turning around Iraq. By 2007-2008, the insurgency in Iraq was being crushed, and Al Qaeda began to flee Iraq, with many returning to Afghanistan and Pakistan. At this point, the war in Afghanistan began heating up again. Pakistan too began to see a significant increase in terrorism and insurgencies in the tribal areas that aren't under direct government control. By 2009 the US was ready to start drawing down in Iraq and prepared to reinforce Afghanistan. Pakistan started to move against the Taliban in Pakistan to reduce the threat they posed. By 2010, the US was rapidly drawing down in Iraq, significantly reinforcing Afghanistan, and Pakistan was engaging in significant campaigns in the tribal areas again Al Qaeda and the Taliban. In 2011, the US got Bin Laden while the Taliban spring offensive has been floundering. The Taliban and Al Qaeda have both been resorting more and more to outright conventional criminal activity over the last five years, including aligning with drug gangs, and that is undermining their appeal as pure Islamic extremists. Progress is training the Afghani police and army have been slow due to poor pay, illiteracy, and corruption, but the situation is improving. The Afghan government, is a challenge as well. The customs of the Afghan people do them few favors, but giving them a chance to rebuild their society and reestablish traditional social controls will help.

It generally take 10-20 years to defeat an insurgency. Everyone paying attention at the beginning of the various insurgencies, or for that matter 9/11, knew that this would a problem that was going to last at least 10-20 years, and more likely close to 50. Statements to that effect were made many times.

Although there is still a long, hard fight ahead in Afghanistan, the key to the war may in fact turn out to be the victory in Iraq. Al Qaeda expended considerable resources and men in Iraq, rendering them vulnerable to detection, capture, or killing. Many financial arrangements were discovered and neutralized. And, perhaps most importantly, Al Qaeda lost enormous amounts of support after Arabs and Muslims began to turn away from them after seeing the wanton way in which they killed fellow Muslims and Arabs. That turn almost certainly wouldn't have happened if the war had remained in Afghanistan, which is remote from Arab & Muslim lands and minds. If Iraq continues on its current path to becoming a prosperous, peaceful Arab Muslim democracy, things are far worse for Al Qaeda.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

I studied political science and international relations. It was awhile ago, but the theory in the 1980s was that regimes which try to control information and who clamp down on their own educated people (scientists, intelligencia) basically shoot themselves in the foot. Mao's Cultural Revolution and Stalinist purges are extreme examples, but Nazi Germany's loss of a head start on the Bomb may be the most important.

In the cases of Iran, Iraq, Libya and Saudi Arabia, petroleum revenue props up these regimes which would otherwise fall sooner as a result of the backwardness that information-control leads to. Those nations have lots of western money as a result of our oil consumption, and one could argue that we need to correct for our own contributions to the authoritarian structure. Egypt, Pakistan, North Korea, Syria, Afghanistan, and Yemen do not have the petroleum and will fall on their own.

Cynics are justified in questioning whether this is just a rationalization to invade nations with petroleum. I'm simply saying that resource poor nations suffer much more when they hinder their scientists, college students are punished or kept off the web. We can justify bombing Libya more than we can justify intervening in Afghanistan, (at least if it were it not for Afghanistan's role as an example to be made of any nation that protects people who attack democracies).

What we need is more access to information, worldwide, and the rest will take care of itself. Nations like Syria which control the internet will have fewer Ph.ds, more brain drain, and more reliance on donkeys, which will make them less of a threat the same way as Mao and Stalin deserve most of the credit for removing their nations from world power status.

Re:I have only one question

[Tacvek]

The most likely case is that he is sane, although sheltered from some of the harsh realities of civilian life. He also most likely does not actually have absolute control, and at times, especially when ill, decisions have been made by other people, and may be inconsistent with the decision he actually makes.

The government is also excessively secretive about him, helping to fuel rumors and conspiracy theories. The end result could easily be the appearance of insanity, despite being perfectly sane.

Really only somebody who has had extended interaction directly with him, could have much hope of knowing for sure.

Re:I have only one question

[Billly Gates]

It is more complex with Syria. Like its neighbor Iraq it has a sizable Shiite population and a Shiite government, where the majority of its residents are Sunni. I do not know the statistics, but from what I gather is the protestors are Sunni. This makes the Shiite population back the government. I know nothing of international relations but this is a great reason not to get involved unlike Libya that is predominantly all Sunni.

Also there is no civil war yet in Syria. It is unfortunately, too late in Libya. Armed conflict resulted already and neither side will back down so force is needed to control Gadhaffi. I believe both sides in Syria do not want a civil war. If bombing and attacks start then a civil war will start next when the protestors grab weapons from these attack facilities then raise their own armies. Another poster mentioned Iran would certainly get involved and look gee ... Iraq just happens to be in the way with a population that majority Shiite with huge aminosity towards the current government. If Iran moved troops a middle east war would start with several countries involved very quickly. There are many other Arab countries where the monarchs and dictators who hate democracy would love to then attack other countries .... etc. I do not need to go on. These are some very good reasons why involvement is bad and why Gates is resigning for having Obama getting involved in Libya.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

Sometimes a "little bit" is enough.

You see, if there are two places where a country would like to intervene, and it will take 500 bombs to win in country A, but 2000 in country B, the intervening country only has 501 spare bombs, then (assuming that the conflicts in A and B are "independent"), it is worthwhile to pursue intervention in country A. It is a "little bit", as opposed to having to scale up military arms production, which is a major drag on the economy. We already did that in the 2000s, and we are still suffering for it (and other things).

Re:I have only one question

[Purpleslog]

Excellent, informative reply. So, how come no moderators have mod'd it up?

Re:I have only one question

[countertrolling]

Wow! You're totally awesome, dude... yep.. you sure convinced me...

Sheesh! Where do these people come from?

Re:I have only one question

[captain_sweatpants]

You're right that he's more of an asshat than crazy. However, it would be pretty difficult to be in a position of completely unquestioned power and wealth and not get a little out of touch with reality. Still, having an army of beautiful women devoted to your pleasure would make most men tempted to ignore the suffering of millions of people around them even if they were fully intact upstairs.

Re:I have only one question

[Wyatt Earp]

Syria is a closer ally to the Russian Federation than Libya was, international action will require the UN Security Council to vote and the five permanent members to agree or to abstain.

The Russian Federation and People's Republic of China will not vote in favor of action against Syria at this time.

Its nothing to do with the politicians convincing the world, it has everything to do with the place Libya and Syria have in Russian foreign relations.

Re:I have only one question

[Wyatt Earp]

NATO could base out of Cyprus.

However, Syria has somethings Libya doesn't have, allies, terrorist organizations to act as a proxy and a modern integrated air defense network.

Re:I have only one question

[countertrolling]

The Taliban refused...

They demanded evidence...The US refused.. The taliban said, 'fuck you.. no ticky, no washy'.. The US said, 'No, fuck you.. eat lead motherfuckers'.. And now the only 'graceful' way out is 'peace with honor' or nukes.. Take your pick.. The hundred year war will have limited effect, but infinite profits

The rest is bullshit.

It's about money, piracy, and pillage, just like every other war.. You can put all the moralistic dramatics aside..

Re:I have only one question

[Nyeerrmm]

Not soon, and no. Because:

1. Libya is a large country with a small population that can be effectively policed through targeted strikes and a no-fly zone to prevent delivery of supplies to the eastern half of the country.

2. Libyan rebels asked for a help, and the Arab league agreed that it was in everyones best interest.

Syria is too dense to enforce things in a similar way. Additionally, I have yet to hear of Syrians requesting western assistance to deal with their oppressors (although I could just not be tuned in enough, I admit). Sadly, this is not an ideal world, and there is not a simple formula that defines YES or NO on humanitarian missions -- we have to balance humanitarian needs, real-politik, practical capabilities, willingness to commit, respect for sovereignty, and probably dozens of other factors I can't think of.

Re:I have only one question

[cold fjord]

They demanded evidence...The US refused.. The taliban said, 'fuck you.. no ticky, no washy'..

The Taliban were stalling, and trying to save face. The US and the Taliban had been down this road before with Bin Laden after the African Embassy bombings. There was no way that the Taliban were going to hand over Bin Laden then, since their government would fall, and Bin Laden's power only continued to grow in Afghanistan after that. Al Qaeda formed a state within a state.

As you may recall, the United States indicted Bin Laden for the African embassy attacks.

TEXT: US GRAND JURY INDICTMENT AGAINST USAMA BIN LADEN

  It didn't help.

U.S., Taliban bargained over bin Laden, documents show

..., the deputy chief of mission at the U.S. Embassy in Pakistan, Alan Eastham Jr., met with Wakil Ahmed, a close aide to Taliban leader Mullah Omar, in November and December 1998. That was just months after the August al Qaeda attacks that killed more than 200 people at the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.

"It is unbelievable that this small man did this to you," Ahmed said during their meeting on December 19, 1998, according to the documents.

Ahmed told Eastham that he spoke with Omar about bin Laden and that the Taliban still considered the Saudi exile "innocent."

During a meeting between Ahmed and Eastham on November 28, 1998, just days after the Taliban's supreme court cleared bin Laden of terrorist activities, Ahmed said one possibility "would be for the U.S. to kill him or arrange for bin Laden to be assassinated."

Ahmed "said that the U.S., if it chose to do so, could arrange to have bin Laden killed by cruise missiles or other means, and there would be little the Taliban could do to prevent it," according to the documents.

Another alternative, Ahmed said, would be for the United States to provide the Taliban with cruise missiles to have "the situation resolved in this way." Ahmed also noted that expelling bin Laden likely would result in the Taliban regime being overthrown, according to the documents.

Al Qaeda wasn't going anywhere in Afghanistan as long as the Taliban governed, hence the outcome.

As far as the rest of your post, I suppose you can keep posting that nonsense under the stopped clock theory (it's still right twice per day), but it doesn't really apply to the war in Afghanistan. The US was attacked, after all.

Re:I have only one question

[currently_awake]

Could this really be about oil? Or does the powers that be just hate Kadaffi? I don't see how it could be about oil as the west was already getting the oil.

Re:I have only one question

[countertrolling]

There can be no doubt, you all are winning the propaganda war, but as the Goldman Sachs execs have shown, lying, even under oath to congress, comes pretty easy to some folks. What applies more to the war in Afghanistan is the opium trade. The taliban was wiping it out.. OBL was the designated distraction...

Stay faithful.. and bottoms up

Re:I have only one question

[cold fjord]

Early on the Taliban were suppressing the drug trade, but that changed. The Taliban are now allied with the drug lords and deriving a big chunk of their income from it. Now it is NATO and the US that is working to get substitute crops in place and suppress the drug trade. It will be a slow process.

Poppy is a key crop here, and in a way, flowers fuel the fight: The Taliban earn hundreds of millions of dollars from the drug trade, which supplies 90 percent of the world's raw opium used for heroin. Locals rely on the work it generates. But the government wants to end poppy production. So the locals, who need the work, support insurgents who will protect it. It's a deeply ingrained Catch-22. -- In Afghanistan, Flowers Call The Shots

No man's life, liberty or property are safe while the legislature is in session. - Gideon J. Tucker

Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding. - Louis Brandeis

I have no use for corrupt politicians, executives, corporations, or advocates.

Salud.

Re:I have only one question

[gknoy]

Are you referring to our history, in which we did drop nukes (but "desperate" is not the right adjective), or to a hypothetical future in which we could become so desperate as to feel nukes were a viable option?

Re:I have only one question

[countertrolling]

Now it is NATO and the US that is working to get substitute crops in place and suppress the drug trade.

Your faith is most powerful.. stronger than the Walls of Jericho.. too bad it is so misplaced

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

As with most things, its all about the money, a little research might help here.
  The sole reason everyone is onto libya is because gadaffi wants to trade oil for gold, and sump the us dollar as reserve currency.
The same can be said for each of the countries that are having their revolutions this year.
  Im wondering if they will invade the brics countries to, who have all recently agreed to trade in their own currencies rather than the dollar.

  As usual, follow the money.

Re:I have only one question

[dotancohen]

"Double standards" doesn't even begin to describe the hypocrisy. We do live in a hugely fucked up world.

What double standard? Libya has oil, Syria and N.Korea do not.

Re:I have only one question

[Hognoxious]

Im wondering if they will invade the brics countries to, who have all recently agreed to trade in their own currencies rather than the dollar.

They haven't, not that it would make any difference anyway.

Re:I have only one question

[doccus]

Bush Sr would never have had made that mistake (that you mention).. was it Dubya didn't listen to daddy, or was it he was only a string puppet?

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

Your right desperate isn't the right word but what do you call the killing of 100 00s of Japanese when you feel that its the only way to stop the death of a lot of Americans (whether that was when the US or them invaded (what ever Harry Truman was thinking))? I was trying to point out the hypocrisy that the only country that has ever killed with nukes is the one saying the others a bat shit insane to want to have them too. Isn't it the same reason America has so many nukes as a deterrent to attacks.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

Never. Somehow, the politicians of the world have somehow convinced the public that it's A-OK to bomb Libyan troops and hardware for attacking civilians, but it's totally NOT OK to bomb the Syrian troops and hardware, even though they are doing exactly the same things as Libyan troops.

Syria started as a civil war and is progressing towards mass murder.
Libya started as mass murder, and following the "intervention" has progressed towards civil war.
In other words, the two situations are almost exactly opposite.

Somehow, people like you have become convinced that you have more of a right to decide what happens in places like Libya than the people who actual live in those countries. And that's a LOT more fucked up than the US and/or UN sending troops to assist when asked to do so.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

Iraq is just another American state now. You invade you set your people/supporters up for an election; fight every one else; and hey presto you get good trade deals for the next century. Its the perfect support for a continued invasion of any where near by (plus now its self supporting) its basically a free gas station.

Re:I have only one question

[dkf]

You don't win wars based upon strategy, you win them on logistics

Sure you win wars based on strategy! It just happens that "get the logistics right" is a great part of any working strategy. (It's not the only part though; it's quite possible to have good logistics and still lose if you're a dumbass in other ways.)

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, leaders of both places are evil.

Bring me to your lizard.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

So, you really think North Koreans have a voice here, in the Internet? Huh, sure, sooo gonna happen.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

Does Syria have oil or natural gas?

Re:I have only one question

[blind biker]

Welcome to the world of politics. The West intervened in Libya because Gaddafi somehow [1] managed to alienate everybody (who counts) in the world. He had no friends left. OTOH, Syria is allied with Iran. And while China isn't exactly a friend of North Korea, they'd still object to Western intervention so close to home (as they did 60 years ago).

It has nothing to do with double standards or hypocrisy. It's all about choosing the battles you can win and avoiding those you'll lose, so you can fight another time.

Even though nobody reads this thread anymore, I want to go on record: what you said is true, but just because Syria has powerful allies, as does North Korea, the powers that be, or whoever represents a sizeable chunk of world opinion, should at least state that the only reason we do jack shit about the people killed in Syria and the hundreds of thousands (millions?) starved and hundreds of thousands imprisoned, tortured and murdered in concentration camps in NK, is because of the allies and means that those countries have, not because it is OK what they do. This statement would be of extreme importance. The way things are now, we are giving tacit approval to the murders of innocent people on a massive scale.

Re:I have only one question

[he-sk]

But the West has condemned what's happening in Syria. And at least here in Germany it's still on the evening news every other day. Compare that to Bahrain were the West really has been mostly silent.

NK is even more isolated than Libya. It's lucky (?) to be in what China considers its sphere of influence, but they are not allies, not by a long shot.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

A better example for your case would probably be Iraq, since it wasn't done as a knee jerk reaction to a national tragedy and should have been thought out better because of that. America had the option of not doing that one. Except Iraq was winnable, just it ended up being an imperfect victory at tremendous cost.

It's far too soon to declare the Iraq war to be a victory. Also, you forgot to mention that it was also carried out for bullshit reasons, by an administration that told us it would be quick and cheap.

Re:I have only one question

[MonsterTrimble]

Land war ... Asia ... something something

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

Libya has oil.
Syria does not.
Any questions?

Re:I have only one question

[heathen_01]

Its lucky that OBL wasn't a Sicilian.

Re:I have only one question

[blind biker]

Not exactly the same thing. The Syrian army just started using tanks THIS WEEK.

Lie.

Witnesses say several thousand Syrian army troops, flanked by special forces, shot their way into the southern city of Daraa before dawn Monday, causing numerous casualties. Tanks reportedly began the assault, shelling the city as they moved in from four sides.

Another source.

Re:I have only one question

[Firethorn]

I'd consider it a practical evaluation of consequences that is almost totally independent upon the USA's usage of nuclear weapons in WWII. Why? NK's potential usage of nuclear weapons is far greater than Syria or Libya, simply because they're known to have them.

The evaluation remains the same whether it's the USA considering invasion (known user of nuclear weapons), Britain(known possessor), or even Japan (no known possessed; estimates are could build quickly). North Korea can respond to invasion with nuclear weapons, Libya and Syria can't. That reduces the potential cost of invasion by orders of magnitude, making it a far 'cheaper' option, thus more likely to be used.

Generally you don't use force on the country with a large, competent military. You use force on the country without an effective military.

Re:I have only one question

[lsatenstein]

Is it really a question of degree of evilness. Kadhafi is perhaps more evil, or has pissed off more people in his lifetime.

Re:I have only one question

[MonsterTrimble]

How do you know the U.S. didn't have iocaine powder?

Re:I have only one question

[YrWrstNtmr]

And if the UN attacks North Korea, the batshit insane leader will start lobbing nukes.

Can someone, anyone, point to a credible source that indicates the NORKs have launchable nukes?
Going from 1 halfassed explosion to an accurate missile or aircraft carried weapon is not easy.

Re:I have only one question

[LurkerXXX]

They have missiles thought to be capable of hitting in South Korea and Japan. Hitting South Korea is a no-brainer, they have SCUD type missles with a 300+ mile range that can pretty much cover it. Japan is only ~650 miles away, and they have tested a satellite launching rocket that went far past that distance.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8134388.stm

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/06/world/asia/06korea.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/05/world/05korea.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31728902/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/s-korea-n-korea-missiles-can-hit-key-targets/

Re:I have only one question

[YrWrstNtmr]

They have missiles thought to be capable of hitting in South Korea and Japan.

SCUDs, sure. A functioning nuclear warhead on an accurate SCUD? That is several levels of difficulty up.

Re:I have only one question

[LurkerXXX]

It's a nuke. It doesn't have to be that accurate. Ask the folks who live 20 miles away from Fukushima.

Re:I have only one question

[Anonymous Coward]

Score: +5, Propaganda

OK...

[gestalt_n_pepper]

What ass thought up that idea? C'mon. Don't be stubborn, just tell us.

Re:OK...

[Anonymous Coward]

.... and the bigger question is, if it's a task fraught with so much danger, why publicize the fact so that the syrian army knows it should be on the look out for donkeys near the border?

Re:OK...

[Anonymous Coward]

This one: http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Virtudyne_0x3a__The_Digital_Donkey.aspx
(If you ever read anything like that through, please read all four parts of this! This is so worth it!)

Re:OK...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a funny story, but about 90% bullshit and the digital donkey is 100% bullshit.

The company in question is SimDesk, which was a spectacular failure without all the embellishment.

A friend of mine sent in a story once and had a what the fuck? moment when he read it afterwards -- the only thing that wasn't edited beyond recognition was his name,

Re:OK...

[RivenAleem]

I tried asking for you, but they remain mulishly silent

Better than bongo drums

[the_humeister]

But higher latency. Must not be that great to play Counter Strike over donkey-net.

Re:Better than bongo drums

[MacGyver2210]

I believe it was in the UK that they determined that Pigeons had better bandwidth than some rural internet connections.

Re:Better than bongo drums

[Anonymous Coward]

Well a donkey has far better bandwidth over that 80 km trip than most any internet connection you can get (in most places). Look at the amount of weight a donkey can carry, then figure out what that weight is in some media (hard drives, SD cards, optical, whatever) and how long it takes them to do the 80 km trip. High latency yes, but insane amounts of bandwidth. I guess if a donkey gets shot on the way you have a "dropped packet" and need to retransmit. If he gets lost it was because there was "no route to host" or a loop in the routing protocol (I think they call it DHGP - Donkey Herder Gateway Protocol).

Re:Better than bongo drums

[hedwards]

You know, donkeynet used to be something completely different...

Re:Better than bongo drums

[webmistressrachel]

Yes, I know.

It was called eDonkey, and I still use it's descendant, eMule (although I'm sure someone would be fast to point out that it primarily uses the Kademlia Distributed Hash Table rather than the original eDonkey network)

Re:Better than bongo drums

[gmhowell]

You know, donkeynet used to be something completely different...

Yeah, but the percentage of shit content is slightly lower is this new version.

Re:Better than bongo drums

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe it was in the UK that they determined that Pigeons had better bandwidth than some rural internet connections.

Physically transporting media has better bandwidth than most connections out there. Fedexing a bunch of 2TB hard drives or tapes overnight will beat even 10Gbit fiber connections.

Re:Better than bongo drums

[Anonymous Coward]

Still no good for counter strike though.

Re:Better than bongo drums

[Billly Gates]

Almost as fast as Windows Vista's network performance

Re:Better than bongo drums

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, there is a standard for Carrier Pidgeon Internet Protocol (CPIP), RFC1149. It has been implemented in Norway as a test. Full details from the test day at http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/

A ping with 4 packets had average response times from 3211 to 6389 seconds. Return packets had a tendency to arrive in groups, as the pidgeons like flying in groups. I assume latency is better than donkey-net, but donkeys would have higher throughput.

Re:Better than bongo drums

[petermgreen]

MMM you can get micro SD cards at 32 GB per day

Assuming a pidgion can carry a micro SD card and can make one flight each way a day. 32*8/24/60/60 = 2.96 megabits per second. That already compares favourablly to longer ADSL lines.

Use a few more pigeons, make them do more flights in a day or tape more than one microsd card to them and you can quite easilly get bandwidths better than most adsl lines.

OFC the latency sucks

Re:Better than bongo drums

[mortonda]

Same problem I have with my cable internet right now... I don't care so much about the bandwidth, but the latency is killing my gaming!

The Digital Donkey

[greylion3]

When I read the headline, this old story came to mind:
http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Best_of_2006_0x3a__The_Virtudyne_Saga.aspx

I was actually a bit disappointed to find that the donkeys were just for smuggling videos :/

Re:The Digital Donkey

[Haedrian]

I was actually a bit disappointed to find that the donkeys were just for smuggling videos :/

Yeah what they should do is get a hundred or so of them, then shave some of them to represent 0, leave unshaved ones to represent 1, and have someone with binoculars on the other side of the border transpose the data from donkeybinary to computer binary.

Re:The Digital Donkey

[Anonymous Coward]

replace the donkeys with the Kim Kardashian's pussy and I'm all over it like Khloe Kardashian on nigger dick.

IP over donkey

[Anonymous Coward]

IP over carrier pigeon is so 1980s, IP over donkey is the future!

Re:IP over donkey

[Tridus]

This is the broadband version of IP over Avian Carrier, given the much higher payload capacity of a donkey.

Re:IP over donkey

[AK Marc]

Yes, but is the broadband RFC2549 compliant as well as 1149?

(sorry, yeah, I know that 2549 is stupid compared to the novelty of the original. Someone probably just thought "weighted" fair queuing by weighting the bird would be funny. It wasn't really...)

Re:IP over donkey

[Seumas]

And I thought my ISP was a real jack ass.

Re:IP over donkey

[countertrolling]

Heh, be very grateful that donkeys don't fly...

Re:IP over donkey

[sribe]

This is the broadband version of IP over Avian Carrier, given the much higher payload capacity of a donkey.

Yeah, but the latency is even worse!

Re:IP over donkey

[MarkRose]

And why not birds you ask? The answer is obvious: IPV6 jumbo packets are too heavy to be carried by air.

Re:IP over donkey

[youn]

in 3D?

The internet

[Intrepid imaginaut]

I have to wonder how much of the source of all these protest is the internet. I don't mean twitter or facebook or any of those, but the ability of people in the Middle East to see the western quality of life and freedom for themselves, talk one to one with western people, look around themselves and realise...
 
...man, this is crap. Where is my freedom? Why am I wading knee-deep in camel dung while the high priests are living it up? Where's my decent education, where's my non corrupt police force, why do I have to bribe someone just to file some paperwork?

Re:The internet

[TheRealWheatley]

i think it's possible the syrian government agrees with you

Re:The internet

[Hazel Bergeron]

Freedom of speech is overrated. Why do you think that Westerners have a monopoly on knowing that powerful people are generally both corrupt and living a life of comparative luxury? It's not as if the side of my family living under dictatorship could not see the nice cars and the big palace that the leaders drove into and out of every day.

Also, Western quality of life - Anglo-Saxon in particular - is overrated. We have a negligible sense of family, community and loyalty. But the grass is always greener on the other side, so I have no doubt that effective external propaganda helps tip the balance. Recall, of course, the oft-repeated quality of revolutions that you only need about one third in favour and another third apathetic: the fall of the USSR, for example, followed not soon after a referendum in which only around a quarter wanted to see the end of the Union.

Re:The internet

[migla]

More than Internet revolutions, all these revolutions are Al Jazeera revolutions.

Just good old fashioned journalism now available (much more so than internet connectivity) in the region.

Or so I've heard.

Re:The internet

[Intrepid imaginaut]

We have a negligible sense of family, community and loyalty. But the grass is always greener on the other side, so I have no doubt that effective external propaganda helps tip the balance.

How is wanting paved roads, working streetlights, decent healthcare, indoor plumbing, the right to determine your own future and some semblance of a future for your children propaganda? What I'm talking about is ordinary Middle Easterners communicating with ordinary Westerners, realising that these guys are nothing special, then wondering why they can't have the same, a process as natural as the tide. The answer is simple of course; they can. I'm quite happy to see at long last the correct answer being given to the questions of starvation and poverty - remove the damn dictators.

Re:The internet

[Sulphur]

i think it's possible the syrian government agrees with you

i think it's possible the Syrian people agree with you

FTFY

Re:The internet

[Anonymous Coward]

...paved roads, working streetlights, decent healthcare, indoor plumbing...

Lord, that's why everyone around the world thinks the average American is dumb. Get yourself on a plane and go see the places you're talking about. Tripoli is way better than the average redneck trailer park where you live. People have working streelights, paved roads, or wherever you think it's exclusive to the Western world.

Fucking moron.

Re:The internet

[AK Marc]

But the grass is always greener on the other side,

But it's not. Americans almost universally believe the USA to be the best country on the planet. Where do Americans want to move to? Because, I'd hazard a guess that the percent of Americans living in some place nearly equal, like the UK as permanent residents, vs the percent of UK people living in the US as permanent residents is different by an order of magnitude or more.

I don't think there are good numbers on that, but people just don't leave the US. Why? Well, it would seem that Americans don't see the grass as greener elsewhere. And, from what I've seen from the actual statistics, American might be seen and perceived as the land of opportunity, but the actual percentage of people who pull themselves up by their own bootstraps to make a success of themselves is greater outside the US in those evil socialist countries than in the US. I guess people are sold on the ideal, and not the reality such that it blocks the idea that the grass could be greener.

Re:The internet

[Intrepid imaginaut]

The average poor/middle class person in Libya is and was massively worse off than the average poor person in the west, and there's a lot more to Libya than its capital.

You're welcome.

Re:The internet

[Dunbal]

Yeah that's cute. I live in the "Jungle" in Costa Rica. Really, at the local Hooters they wear grass skirts. And considering that it's across the road from the Outback (steakhouse), you can imagine just what kind of jungle this really is... sorry, have to go, the delivery guy is here with my Indian food.

Re:The internet

[Hazel Bergeron]

Well, yes they do, though net migration is inward, as in many richer nations.

But the US advertises itself to the whole world as the "other side", while no-one really advertises the same to the US. The US is the place to go if you're poor enough to make a good wage slave or clever enough to make a killing, with a visa lottery system to scoop up the former (you won't find e.g. a British citizen allowed to enter on the lottery scheme).

Re:The internet

[countertrolling]

Bootleg satellite dishes destroyed the Soviets' control over information. Access to western media played a great part in its downfall.. Ted Turner's STV, starting with the Goodwill Games in '86 had a much bigger effect than Ronnie's SDI..

Re:The internet

[Hazel Bergeron]

paved roads, working streetlights, decent healthcare, indoor plumbing, the right to determine your own future and some semblance of a future for your children

When you list all these things, to which proportion of which country do you refer?

Re:The internet

[Hazel Bergeron]

The Soviet people didn't want the end of the Union. Its downfall was orchestrated from the top: Who reallocated to defence? Who gradually dismantled the command economy? Who implemented Glasnost and Perestroika?

"Popular revolutions" exist, but the one ending the USSR was absolutely not one of them. What effect do you think Western media did to influence what actually happened in the USSR, and how?

Re:The internet

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Was Al Jazeera previously forbidden in the Middle East? My own experience in developing countries is that internet cafes have a much higher rate of usage than in developed countries. Trying to understand this phenomenon is fascinating.

Re:The internet

[countertrolling]

"You forgot Poland"

Unlike China's Tienanmen Square deal, the Soviets could not contain the info coming out about the strikes and subsequent negotiations. You underestimate the power of propaganda.. Control of the media is paramount. You only have to note what's happening now as all opposition to American policy is being tagged as a bunch of kooks and 'conspiracy theorists'.. the best alternative to outright censorship, which turns out to actually be more effective, while providing the illusion of 'freedom of press'. A big win for authoritarians everywhere. Also note the the replacements in Tunisia and Egypt are hardly any better than the previous regimes. "Arab Spring" is a propaganda masterpiece.

Actually I agree that it's always been top down. A real 'peoples' movement would be crushed like an ant, or compromised by infiltration.. but public relations is very important

Re:The internet

[Hazel Bergeron]

the Soviets could not contain the info coming out about the strikes and subsequent negotiations.

This was certainly relevant in some satellite states, no class therein content to be a servant of the USSR, but not to the USSR itself. What was happening in Eastern Europe might have influenced Soviet thinking, but those who mattered wouldn't have had the goings on there hidden from them anyway.

The West have this habit of looking back at the strength of Solidarity or the fall of the Berlin Wall and thinking events in Eastern Europe were the harbinger of the USSR's inevitable destruction. It's a quaint, prejudiced image of slaves flooding out to freedom, sending the good news back East. But these events were all symptoms, not causes, and the final death blows were yet to come.

the best alternative to outright censorship, which turns out to actually be more effective, while providing the illusion of 'freedom of press'.

Absolutely. America's learnt that, once you have the infrastructure, it's much better to drown speech out than to censor it.

Also note the the replacements in Tunisia and Egypt are hardly any better than the previous regimes. "Arab Spring" is a propaganda masterpiece.

Egypt right now is precisely a country with a suspended constitution under military dictatorship. Ostensibly preparing for a Free And Fair[tm] election, as always. A few of the moderate and figurehead officials awaiting show trial; a few of the less sane opposition party reps back in the wild and ready to enjoy pluralism. Good luck, Egypt, at the rate every neighbouring country in your situation has done...

Re:The internet

[gmhowell]

More choice in the US in some matters without the hassle of expatriation. You like beaches? FL, CA, TX and others. Big mountains? The Rockies. Little ones? Appalachians. Plains? We've got them too. Big cosmopolitan city? There's NYC. Small towns? Flyover states.

Devil's advocate answer: ignorance of other cultures. Lack of a second language. Laziness. Inability to smell vegemite without throwing up in your mouth a little.

Re:The internet

[Billly Gates]

People who can not afford computers use internet cafes and many use their phones for net access (much cheaper than our mega telecoms in the US charge). Al jazeera is banned in Libya and I do not know if their television stations have been banned or censored in Syria. Al Jazeera until this spring is all over the middle east and was never filtered.

Re:The internet

[Anonymous Coward]

This was certainly relevant in some satellite states, no class therein content to be a servant of the USSR, but not to the USSR itself. What was happening in Eastern Europe might have influenced Soviet thinking, but those who mattered wouldn't have had the goings on there hidden from them anyway.

This is silliness of the 7th degree.

There is no "might have" here. The gradual loss of morale in Eastern European states directly lead to policies like perestroika. It was simply impossible for the Soviet machine to maintain control over a region as large as northern Asia and eastern Europe without the economically productive regions of eastern Europe. And that is what they were losing.

Therefore, upon having lost them, the Soviets (smartly) designed an exit strategy, to hopefully leave the regions in peace. Whether we agree with their politics or not, we should at least acknowledge their grace in leaving when it became obvious that a communist empire of that scale was unmanageable.

The problems after the Soviet regime change were due with the continuation of inefficient middle-management, as opposed to inefficient policy. People were literally taught that "capitalism is theft". So these middle managers adapted, and proceeded to steal.

Re:The internet

[hitmark]

My impression is that tradition and respect for the opinion of elders holds a much higher standing outside of Europe and North America (tho some parts of USA makes me wonder).

Point is that "freedoms" can be had without going full rebellion. Consider how in Iran teens get around limits of gender interaction via short range data transmissions using their bluetooth enabled mobile phones. Or how TV is supposedly outlawed in Saudi-Arabia, tho any family with means have a sat dish somewhere on the property.

The protests turned rebellions are apparently triggered by something more basic, the price of food. It echoes the french revolution eerily in that sense.

Re:The internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if you could give them 'freedom' how are they going to get out of the camel dung. Same thing you said could be said for any country on earth why does Donald Trump have all the money and I’m homeless. Get your head out of your ass they have bigger problems then not having the same 'freedom' as you. Which is why they need help not explosions?

Re:The internet

[Hazel Bergeron]

Not sure what you are addressing. The question is whether accessibility of news in the USSR proper made any significant influence to its downfall. Glasnost certainly rekindled nationalist elements, but the outcome of the referendum was clear.

Re:The internet

[AK Marc]

The summary table in that link had incomplete references (I couldn't walk into a library with that and be able to find their source). So I wasn't able to track down the raw data. My understanding is that a large portion of emigration from the US is immigrants returning home. As such, I'd be more interested in the number of citizens who depart, not the number of residents, permanent or otherwise, who depart. Also, I was unclear on whether illegal immigration was included. Legal or not, it's movement.

Re:The internet

[Hazel Bergeron]

at a large portion of emigration from the US is immigrants returning home.

That's very standard for developed countries: people go there to take advantage of the higher wage even for very basic jobs, allowing them to send home a relative fortune, and kids from richer families get sent West for good education. It's not really immigrating to America for the American dream if you're doing that, and it's not something which America uniquely enjoys.

A close relation was the director of department at a well-known London university and he was always being sent to China to persuade students of the emerging middle class to come over and pay full fees.

Re:The internet

[AK Marc]

But it distorts the emigration numbers if aborted immigration is counted as emigration.

Bandwidth

[SilverHatHacker]

After all, never underestimate the bandwidth of a series of donkey carts loaded with tapes...

Re:Bandwidth

[jrmcferren]

Or flash drives.

Re:Bandwidth

[jdwoods]

The current state of the art in maximum bandwidth might be an ultra large container vessle (ULCV) filled with containers all filled with 32GB micro-SDHC (uSDHC) cards. For example, the Emma Maersk could carry ~15,000 TEU (Twenty-foot Equivalent Unit) containers each containing 39 cubic meters (M3) of storage for a total of 585,000 M3 or 585,000,000,000 cubic cm (CM3). I haven't seen any hard statistics on maximum storage density of uSDHC cards per unit of volume, but a rough estimate of 10-15 uSDHC per CM3 seems likely. Picking 12 uSDHC/CM3 as a rough guess would allow something on the order of 200 zettabytes. But the latency would be rather high. :) And of course, one might want to provide some redundancy for bit-rot and other forms of data loss.

Re:Bandwidth

[ppanon]

I think your biggest data loss risk is containers falling off into the ocean during bad weather.

Re:Bandwidth

[mortonda]

I'm just trying to figure out how to work tubes into this discussion.

mandatory

[superwiz]

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a truck full of back up tapes moving at 60 mph.

Re:mandatory

[Anonymous Coward]

So, how about a truck full of donkeys carrying backups? Is that encapsulation?

Re:mandatory

[countertrolling]

and checksummed by a station wagon full of nuns..

I will say one thing...

[Anonymous Coward]

The porn is certainly different.

What's the difference between Syria and Libya?

[Anonymous Coward]

Three letters: O,I,L.

Re:What's the difference between Syria and Libya?

[blind biker]

Three letters: O,I,L.

This is probably the most quotable Anonymous Coward post I've ever read.

The NATO ain't going to intervene in Syria, "screw those guys!".

Re:What's the difference between Syria and Libya?

[he-sk]

I see your 3 letters and raise to 4: Iran.

Re:What's the difference between Syria and Libya?

[tokul]

I see your 3 letters and raise to 4: Iran.

Five letters. A B O M B

Re:What's the difference between Syria and Libya?

[Anonymous Coward]

6 letters: G O A T S E

RFC1149 Needs an update

[lightyear4]

Now RFC1149 for 'IP over avian carriers' needs an addendum. IETF go!

Re:RFC1149 Needs an update

[VortexCortex]

Now RFC1149 for 'IP over avian carriers' needs an addendum. IETF go!

I disagree. We should all get on board with a ready backup plan based on RFC4838. Every town should have an implementation of Delay-tolerant Networking, just in case...

NASA has already began testing an implementation of RFC1149 for use in space.

Our local DTN could use shortwave radio, and/or CB with repeaters, etc.

Alas, I fear we will only begin to build the network after it is needed... On a related note: I want the right to bear technology lumped in with the right to bear arms if my strong encryption system is going to be considered munitions.

Re:RFC1149 Needs an update

[Daniel_Staal]

DTN is fine and dandy, but it doesn't address the issue of what medium you are using to transmit the network. Any implementation of RFC1149 should include an implementation of RFC4838 as a matter of course, because the RTT is high. But since the operating-training for RFC1149 is so specialized, (as shown here: avian carriers would be ideal in this situation, but are being avoided because of the training and setup costs) it makes sense to expand the techniques to related mediums. Hopefully then a suitable transport medium will be available in all (or at least most) circumstances.

Remember: RFCs work together, not each on their own. They each describe a single part of the network, or even just a part of that part's behavior.

Re:RFC1149 Needs an update

[ppanon]

But since the operating-training for RFC1149 is so specialized, (as shown here: avian carriers would be ideal in this situation, but are being avoided because of the training and setup costs

I think there's also a serious concern over MITM attacks because falconry is popular in the Middle East

Re:RFC1149 Needs an update

[T.E.D.]

Well, looking over the RFC, it looks like you could get quite a bit higher bandwidth using donkeys, as the legs you duct-tape the notes to are far longer, and there are four of them instead of just two.

The big problem I see is the handling of different services. RFC1149 uses pecking order for that, but donkeys don't socialize in that manner. They are solitary animals, so service negotiation would need to be carried out over long distances using their innate braying facility. This may drasticaly increase the danger of packets being intercepted in a hostile environment.

What's the 'Band' Width?

[LifesABeach]

How much data is 'carried' via this 'Hoof-Net'?

Re:What's the 'Band' Width?

[darkonc]

It's still a sneaker net -- just a different kind of 'sneak'.

MPAA

[ebs16]

I thought eMule was shut down!

Re:MPAA

[Anonymous Coward]

How would you possibly do that? End all electronic communication on the world forever?
I'm using it right now. (Until I found a replacement headless client-server p2p client for mldonkey.)

Re:MPAA

[Klinky]

Sure you're not actually using WooshTorrent?

Just use an acronym for IP Over Donkey

[Anonymous Coward]

We wouldn't want to pull Apple in on the government's side.

Imagine

[Anonymous Coward]

a cluster of jackasses on the Information Superhighway. Shouldn't be too hard for anyone that ever sat an open channel on IRC.

Oh wait,,,

Re:Imagine

[Black Parrot]

a cluster of jackasses on the Information Superhighway. Shouldn't be too hard for anyone that ever sat an open channel on IRC.

Yes, but in this case the asses are carrying the messages rather than creating them.

Bandwidth of an motorcycle

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

My friend owns a company in Chennai, India that does some kind of very heavy video processing/analysis for a major sports league. He ends up collecting hard disks full of video-data fro the ISP's undersea-fiber optic link office and transporting them on a motrocycle across town. He estimates the bandwidth of the motrocycle works out to some 1 DVD per second!

Re:Bandwidth of an motorcycle

[mehrotra.akash]

Considering the cost of last mile bandwidth in India, I wouldnt be surprised

Re:Bandwidth of an motorcycle

[Anonymous Coward]

My boss at my very first IT job at an ISP once said this....

"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a beat up old station wagon speeding down the highway with a back seat full of backup tapes."

Re:Bandwidth of an motorcycle

[ptbarnett]

"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a beat up old station wagon speeding down the highway with a back seat full of backup tapes."

The quote (or a variation thereof) was first cited on USENET in 1985, back before ISP's were a viable business model:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneakernet#Non-fiction

Re:Bandwidth of an motorcycle

[Anonymous Coward]

...works out to some 1 DVD per second!

How many Library of Congresses is that?

Re:Bandwidth of an motorcycle

[sconeu]

Yeah, but the latency sucks.

Re:Bandwidth of an motorcycle

[MonsterTrimble]

Or the cost.

100% Agreed. My parents live in a rural area and they recently (2 weeks ago) got OTA High-speed internet with the first couple months free. They *LOVE* the speed (easy to get photos of the grandkids, youtube, etc.) however I had to warn them that there is a cap and if you hit it you will pay through the nose for it. So if they want movies, music, etc to tell me (the one with high speed cable internet and no cap), they just have to ask me and I'll download it, burn it to DVD and drive it out there (they live about an hour away). Failing that a stamp and a decent mail service works wonders!

Re:Bandwidth of an motorcycle

[MischaNix]

If I scream loud enough, I can attain similar broadcast bandwidths.

Re:Bandwidth of an motorcycle

[v1]

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.

Funny, when I looked that up I could have sworn it specifically stated 9traks. guess not.

LATENCY

[A10Mechanic]

I was playing BZ-Flag with this, but the latency drove me nuts. Kept getting kicked from the Donkey, oops, i meant server...

Next generation technology

[Luckyo]

ASD - Analogue Subscriber Donkey*.

The next generation of internet communication (after your oppressive government shuts down other internet access lines).

*Speed depends on the Donkey, quality of road and driver. Government checkpoints may cause packet loss.

eDonkey?

[BlueScreenO'Life]

Hey, not such a bad idea.

(TFA says "Cut off from the World Wide Web", not from the Internet)

DeDonkey'd

[Anonymous Coward]

... when various donkeys show up at your stable and there is no room left for the legit carriers.

"This place smells like shit! Oh no we have been DeDonkey'd!"

Not the mexican kind

[Anonymous Coward]

Smuggling video footage across a border with donkeys? It gives a new meaning to the expression donkey show.

dangerous, now that youve fucking leaked it

[decora]

great. now fucking Bashir knows to kill evey donkey on the border and to kill anyone close to the border. thanks alot journalism!

Who knew...

[Sinthet]

That getting online could be such a pain for the ass.

Re:Who knew...

[Tablizer]

that getting online could be such a...pain in the ass.

Those of us with Comcast or Time Warner knew that already.

Do not under estimate meatspace bandwidth

[w0mprat]

Do not under estimate the bandwidth and low cost of physically moving any kind of storage media.

Except for carrier pidgeons, they literally drop packets.

Re:Do not under estimate meatspace bandwidth

[MonsterTrimble]

Except for carrier pidgeons, they literally drop packets.

I don't know what you call it, but what lands on my car after being dropped by pigeons isn't called 'packets' here

Syrian DSL is...

[sribe]

Donkey Subscriber Line

Obligatory

[Anonymous Coward]

There has got to be a [Carrier Lost] joke in there somewhere...

How would you measure that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mega-Burros per minute?

... is for porn

[sourcerror]

If the internet is for porn, I don't even dare to think about what happened to these poor animals.

Re:... is for porn

[Coward Anonymous]

Probably something like this happened (NSFW): http://www.vbs.tv/watch/the-vice-guide-to-sex/asses-of-the-caribbean

The donkeys don't seem to mind it a bit.

Re:... is for porn

[dotancohen]

Poor animals? They are getting the type of attention /.ers only dream of.

Re:... is for porn

[sourcerror]

Thank, you that was ... highly educational.

unfortunately susceptable

[bugs2squash]

to "mule in the middle" attacks

Bring on the NBN!

[preacha]

So Australian broadband is up to speed with Syria at least!

Re:Bring on the NBN!

[ChunderDownunder]

Australia has prior art on wartime ip-over-donkey. Simpson in WW1.

However, donkeys don't deliver high throughput in the desert; we have a surplus of camels in the Territory.

Donkey Net

[Maxx169]

I hope they're using UDP. I'd feel bad if they were turning donkeys around and telling them to go back carrying a NACK.

Re:Donkey Net

[karnal]

I SAID RST

lol

Smells like...

[Anonymous Coward]

Their entire Internet smells like ass. Even if they upgrade to mules, they'd still be half-assed.

Donkey?

[jshackney]

Whoa! For a second there, I thought, uh... well, oh, nevermind.

Oh, please

[Chicken_Kickers]

Americans had always had a special place in their hearts for Gaddafi. They will jump at the opportunity if Gaddafi so much as sneeze on his civillians. So, please, spare us the propaganda and claims of high moral ground. The thing about being the world policeman is that you have to at least try to appear to be fair. Civil wars are the worst kind of wars because the rebels are usually indistinguishable from civillians and are often the same people.

Re:Oh, please

[Attila Dimedici]

Apparently, you are unaware that military involvement in Libya occurred because the French and the Germans felt it was the thing to do. In all probability, the reason for this was the relatively close proximity of Libya to southern Europe combined with the fact that Libya has oil. Additionally, for a very narrow window it appeared that Ghaddafi was about to be defeated by the rebels if they were only given a little bit of help. Unfortunately, neither France nor Germany had sufficient military assets to deliver that help (at least without significant risk of loss of life among their armed forces) and by the time Obama was convinced to act, that window had closed.

Re:Oh, please

[andydread]

If Obama had acted unilaterally rather than getting the broad coalition and UN backing BEFORE going in then we would own this whole thing and you would be hammering him for how much this cost and is driving up the deficit because he failed to get a broad coalition.

Re:Oh, please

[Wyatt Earp]

You mean France and the United Kingdom. Germany is staying out of this, Italy only jumped in later because France and the UK pushed them.

Re:Oh, please

[andydread]

While you have a point. I think its more than just he Americans. Not very many people in the world like Gaddafi. France and Britain were the main ones pushing for an NO-FLY-ZONE. Even the Arab League were pushing for action and Arab nations are participating also.

Re:Oh, please

[Attila Dimedici]

Personally, I think U.S. involvement in this was a mistake. My real problem with Obama's actions on this was his commitment of U.S. forces without even consulting Congress. This from a man who said, "The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation."

Re:Oh, please

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I think U.S. involvement in this was a mistake. My real problem with Obama's actions on this was his commitment of U.S. forces without even consulting Congress. This from a man who said, "The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation."/quote. And if we hadn't invaded Iraq for such bullshit reasons, and if Bush hadn't ultimately fallen back on the "Saddam was a bad man" excuse for it, then perhaps we could have avoided getting involved in Libya without looking like a bunch of self-serving, hypocritical jackasses. If we did nothing, it would have just confirmed everyone's suspicions that we had ulterior motives for invading Iraq, which, while probably true, is not something we want to provide evidence for.

Giddy-Up Digital Donkey!

[stuckinarut]

The Virtudyne Digital Donkey finally comes of age.

Let me rewrite a bit of this...

[Anonymous Coward]

The arabic governments have been basically accepted as the fuse that lit the unrest exploding across the Arab world by the public. (And we saw it coming too.)

What they're really up to

[Reziac]

There once was a poor man who lead a donkey every day across the border from one kingdom to another. The border guards suspected that he was smuggling something, so each day as the man passed the border they carefully searched the man and the donkey's saddlebags. But they didn't find anything.

After a while the man starts to wear more expensive clothing and buys a large house. The border guards redouble their efforts to inspect the man and his donkey closely because they now are certain the man is smuggling something. But in their daily searches of the man and the saddlebags they never come up with anything but straw.

After 30 years of this daily routine, one of the border guards retires. One day when the retired border guard is walking across the street, he runs into the man and says "Listen, I am no longer a border guard and I can no longer hurt you. I promise I will never tell anyone, but just for my peace of mind, please tell me what you have been smuggling all those years."

The man replies, "Because I know that you can no longer arrest me, I will tell you. I was smuggling donkeys."

YES!

[Scoldog]

The Digitial Donkey Lives!

http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Best_of_2006_0x3a__The_Virtudyne_Saga.aspx

(down the bottom of the page)

A digital donkey?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is exactly what I thought of when I read this headline.

Also see this...

The internet's down...

[Anonymous Coward]

so they are using donkeys for porn?

A.K.A. AssNet

[Tablizer]

nuf sed

Why NATO is at War in North Africa...

[Anonymous Coward]

People have to understand that the only reason NATO (white people) are at war is because of OIL. This is obvious to most people. But, a lesser known factual situation is the following.

Qaddafi had been in the process of creating a Coalition of uniting the North African Oil producing countries, by selling their Oil Reserves not using the US Dollar, but with a _Gold_ Currency.

Well, the United States govt would have none of this. Especially with sky rocketing gas prices. So, first you call it a humanitarian war to reduce the flack Govt gets when it has to spend BILLIONS in tax payer money to goto war. Then you kill the 'Tyrant' and replace him with one that will not try to move off the Dollar and do business as usual with the US govt.

Also, most people did not know that Qaddafi gave each Libyan Citizen annual checks, FREE college and many other things. He did do so bad things... but nothing to justify his head on a platter.

But, most Americans are so war orientated, only watch FOX news and do not question more. Try watching rt.com ( yeah it's russian funded and has operations in USA) But, Russia is now a democracy. Even Hilary Clinton was sighted as stating that she now gets her public news from RT and that she even went as far as to goto procurement committee asking for tax money to start a new NEWS organization because FOX, CNN and all the rest only show FILTERED news and far from enlightening.

Cool huh? Don't believe any of this? Too bad. Read more, and watch youtube.com RT or goto RT.com or literally thousands of other Internet Based ( non-corporate paid off news outfits )

Times are changing... and you can think the Internet for this.

eDonkey

[thygrrr]

Wouldn't it be nerdishly awesome to tunnel eDonkey2k using those donkeys? Just sayin'... :)

Required: One mp3 file, 2000 donkeys, and a tunnel across the border.

Bandwidth

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't underestimate the bandwidth of a donkey loaded with video tapes.

Like the old adage goes...

[vegiVamp]

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a donkey loaded with disks.

Re:Like the old adage goes...

[BCGlorfindel]

I was going to go with:

Never underestimate the bandwidth of an ass load of backup tapes.

But you've beat me to it, well played good sir.

Viva la Donkey?

[Anonymous Coward]

If one of them is named Che Guevara I'm done.

Think I've heard this one before...

[Hartree]

Is this cribbed from Lyndon Larouche?

Re:Think I've heard this one before...

[countertrolling]

I wouldn't know.. you tell me.. I quit paying attention to him a very long time ago.. In fact I never seriously considered him.. Maybe he cribbed from me.. either way, it is the most likely scenario, along with the addition of an aquifer with a very sexy name that seems worth fighting for. Luckily for Egypt things went much more smoothly.. so far.. Perrier is the new Exxon..

Its like 1999 all over again!

[Anonymous Coward]

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.