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Mandatory Automotive Black Boxes May Be On the Way
Attila Dimedici writes "The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is expected to announce a new regulation requiring all vehicles to contain a 'black box.' Not only that, but the devices would be designed to make it difficult (possibly illegal) to modify what information these devices collect or to disable them even though the courts have ruled that the owner of the vehicle owns the data. The courts have also ruled that authorities may access that data (to what degree and whether a warrant is necessary depends on the state)."
it's for the children.
It shouldnt be to hard to induce a malfunction in one of these car monitors.
As long as the black box is offline and has at most 1 hour memory, I definitely agree. Useful to understand what happened in case of accidents, especially to prosecute those who cause accidents by speeding.
First off, it being illegal to disable a part on my car? Is it making it safer or reducing pollution? Then why should removing it be illegal if it's my car?
I can understand keeping your engine/power at certain levels, keeping pollution to a minimum, and keeping your lights/blinkers in a certain condition.
But why should I be forced to leave a black-box on my car if it's just going to be used retroactively to bite me in the *behind* in case of an accident.
Particularly since I have personal experience with a car's onboard computer acting screwy and recording the wrong information from my accelerator.
As long as the use is limited to investigate accidents ONLY, and they retain only about 15-30 minutes of data, it would be OK.
They shouldnt be used for general law enforcement like speeding,etc..
The car is yours; the box is yours; the data is yours. You paid for it. No problem with that at all.
You can remove the black box all you like; hack it up; do whatever you want with it.
You can also put on cherry bombs, a nitrous tank, and racing slicks. Have at it. It's your property.
But--if you want to use the public roads, you have to follow certain rules.
License. Title. Insurance. Registration. Inspection. and so forth.
It's your choice; nobody's forcing you--use it on the roads or don't as you prefer.
Here in the Netherlands, they've already been planning for something like this for some time. Not sure what the current status is on that though.
Anyway, the idea is that all cars will be equipped with some kind of GPS enabled device that records the movements of the car and reports this to big brother...err, I mean the tax administration. Based on how much you've driven your car and on what kind of roads and on what times your taxes are calculated. They say this system is a lot fairer than the current 'one tax level for all car owners' system. The idea is also to make the car owner responsible for the condition of the device and driving around with a disabled, modified or broken device is punishable with a fine. It's the govt's form of automated road pricing. I think it's a really, really bad idea.
This will be used to track your mileage so you can be taxed that way. At least that is the ultimate goal. Masking it in safety will get it started, and I see a few sheep have already bitten that hook.
...toward the surveillance society. Next they'll transmit information about your driving wirelessly. All in the name of safety, of course. Oh, and don't mind the camera on the lamppost outside your front door. It's time to remember that government works for US.
Bad consequences.
Looks like it's time to store away my red barchetta up at my brothers farm. Maybe someday my son will get to drive it.
Is it just me, or do you hate it when people say "Is it just me..."?
Don't you know computers don't make mistakes? Putting black boxes in cars will ensure that noone is ever found at fault when they shouldn't be, and that you're never wrongfully ticketed. This is the way things are going, it's like the cameras they use to catch speeders and red light runners, and those things have never made a mistake, certainly never been shown to consistently make mistakes... Seriously though, I like the idea of a black box system that will reliably determine who is at fault in an accident, but just like everything else, this bit of information will be misused. Anyone else remember when those plate-scanning cameras weren't going to be used to bust people with expired registrations and lapsed insurance?
Who wants to start a new religion proclaiming that our cars are part of our free-spirited self, and that tampering with them like this would be a direct violation of our commandments given to us by the Great Mechanic?
Will this box somehow record video data as well? Lots of accidents are caused by people running stop lights/signs. Better record the inside of the car too just to be sure the driver wasn't texting or anything. While they are at it, they should probably record audio data as well.
Seriously though, where does it end?
I seriously doubt that it will be more than a year or two before some state allows you to be pulled over and the data pulled from this to write speeding tickets. And the amount of data they will contain will only increase, before long they'll be able to cite you for infractions from weeks ago. Soon it will be argued that GPS data will be needed too, so 1 MPH through a stop sign can be ticketed, too. They'll probably "need" to check it when you register or emission test your car.
Illegal to modify or remove? Why? Who would that harm, other than the police ability to fine you? It's a money grab, nothing else.
Why did we bail out the auto industry if we're going to kill new car sales a couple years down the line when new cars can convict you of speeding without an officer having to observe it?
This sentence no verb.
I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that.
But on a more serious note. What if the devices function was central to the motors operation. You know a lot of your motor is computer controlled these days.
Additionally, if they become ubiquitous and are seen as a "flawless device which is on the whole tamper proof", regardless of the reality, if your device is faulty, that may be entered into evidence in a trial against you, as evidence of your guilt. This might satisfy mens rea, instantly, and might even be secondary evidence (forget the proper name) of actus rea. Though, traffic violations in many countries already immediately satisfies mens rea, and so it wouldn't help much there.
I don't like where it's going. Especially with regards to Tom Tom, iPhone GPS, and similar data, also being used, while shows like CSI lead people to believe that this data is perfect evidence which can't be faked.
This is not good news. Though, it would make a nice black market for older cars, which don't or couldn't have them installed.
This is my footer. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
This shouldn't bother you if you have nothing to hide.
All horrible privacy issues aside, I'm not a big fan continuing to add expenses to vehicles. Airbags and safety systems are great, but is this really going add that much safety to a driver and passengers? We will have to pay for these black boxes when we buy the car, and what happens when the "black box" malfunctions? Does the car shutdown? When you get pulled over does the cop somehow check that the device is working and ticket you if it doesn't? I'm guessing the way it needs to be mounted and the eletronics won't make it a cheap device, but I could be wrong.
this is something the judges in the court have long asked for. After an accident its difficult to establish howfar the accident was caused by the behavior of driver or circumstances - e.g. - did the driver go 150km/h for 6h without a break or did he feel compelled by somebody driving 1m to his rear end to go faster just at the location of the accident? I also think its ok to confiscate the record if the driver was caught speeding or stopped in a control because its suspected that he drove to long (a mechanical recorder to prevent speeding/going without a break is mandatory for trucks in Germany, and in general the experiences seem to be quite good).
What would *not* be ok would be any function where the police can ask "list all drivers who did this or that". There is no way to prevent this from being used to track people, e.g. by setting up a 50cm long speed regulated zone in the database to get all driver passing this point.
The mandatory things would be:
*encryption, where the keys are stored in a way that they can be only recomposed either from the owners/driver (the driver can e.g. insert an electronic license) keyring (to defend himself), or from several institutions agreeing and providing the key for a specific case.
*a legal framework which highly discourages institutions from even trying to abuse this data
*no network connection of the device. The memory should be a removable part, which is secured by a normal lock/seal. Implementations which do not contain the data only in this removable part should be forbidden.
*the only normally accessible interface should be a port used to set the currently used license (this is, downloading a public key from it).
... if done The Right Way. But as usual, the people in charge all have their personal interests, which do not match The Right Way. So this will become yet another nuisance.
This was one thing that came to light when Toyota's very public troubles with unintentional acceleration surfaced last year. Yes, many vehicles have data recorders, but the kind of data collected is not standardized across makes, models, or model years. Furthermore, the quality and validity of the data is not assured (i.e., if the recorder says that the vehicle is traveling at 75 mph, how do we know that's true?), because the collection system hasn't been extensively tested and verified. Finally, the format of the data, and the electromechanical interface to access the data (i.e., what cable and software to use) is about as proprietary as they come. Think it was bad that every cell phone had to have their own unique wall wart with their own unique connector? That's nothing compared to automotive data recorders.
Personally, I think that this kind of data is invaluable: it leads to safer vehicles and provides critical answers to how and why an accident occurred. That might sound like it only benefits the government, law enforcement, insurance companies, and auto manufacturers, but consumers also benefit. If you are in an accident because some asshat was doing 80 mph, in the rain, without his headlights on, and was too distracted by his cellphone to hit the brakes before broadsiding you, a data recorder will help you stick it to him. Got rear ended, and think that the guy was riding your ass beforehand? A data recorder will show how long both your and his brakes were applied before impact. Think it was Toyota's fault that your corolla pegged 100 mph all on its own and ignored the brake? A proper data recorder would provide important proof one way or the other. But right now, because the technology is so scattershot, unverifiable, and open to interpretation, it is of only marginal use. In a court it's about as good as anecdote, rather than hard data. Having rules and open standards is the first step to improving this.
A proper data recorder, combined with an extensive testing and verification program, is a significant expense: one that a company isn't going to add to a vehicle unless mandated to do so. If we want this data to exist at all and be reliable (see above for why I think this is good), then a mandate and uniform standards is the way to make it happen. As for whose data it is exactly, and under what circumstances it can be accessed, that is a much more important debate to have. For while I am in favor of this information being available to all parties after an accident, I am not at all keen on letting Progressive Insurance install and monitor a tracking device in my car in order to get cheaper insurance rates.
Why don't they just shove a tracker up everyone's ass and call it a day?
I've been wondering for some time now if license plates will become 'high tech'. What if they added this system into all license plates?
Plus, people are already complaining here that they would be mad if they can't remove something that is on their car that they own. Well you can't remove your license plate. How is requiring this any different?
Just like in an airplane, I think a black box device is a great idea. Far to many accidents occur with no witnesses that this will give an opportunity to work out what went wrong (why were there no skids, how fast were they going, where the bulbs in the headlights working).
For people who are safe drivers, again there is no problem. Yes, we all drive a bit over the speed limit all the time - part of the whole 'keeping your eyes on the road' thing we are expected to do means we can't drive permanently looking at the speedometer to ensure we don't just sneak over the limit. But many accidents are caused by drivers driving excessively over the limit, and if I'm involved in an accident with someone like that, I like the idea that I can point to my black box data and say 'see, I was 2km/h over the limit, whereas they were 45km/h over the limit'. It'll protect me and put the blame on those who were actually responsible.
Which means that they have to be tamper-proof or the just can't be admissible.
So, so long as they are used only in the purpose of an accident and proving fault, I have no problem with them.
In the case of a Big Brother type situation, there I _do_ have a problem.
But I'm try to remain optimistic that the Big Brother element won't be present.
Oh, also, I want to be able to read the data myself at any time! It would be a great way to learn about your own driving habits, what causes fuel use to go up, am I subconsciously sitting at a red light with my foot depressing the throttle, etc. With GPS, I can track everywhere I've been (but this does tend to imply Big Brother stuff, so no GPS please).
Store everything on the box, but only store a certain amount. If it's to be use for crash analysis, how much data is needed? An hour? A day? A week? more data allows an investigator to analyse driving patterns and behaviour ("this guy always speeds", or "this guy has no habit of speeding - did his foot slip?")
The people posting in favor of this regulation and suggesting to take cabs, busses, subways, etc. clearly have no concept of rural, or even suburban, life. You know, that which the majority of the United States is? There's a big country outside your little utopian cities where it can be as much as 50 miles to get to the hardware store. And do you know who lives in these places? The people growing your food.
Enough Big Brother. They don't need to know where I go. This must be stopped.
How much would something like this cost a driver/owner? Will the government foot the bill, or would we have to buy it from an overpriced retailer?
Well 2 of the 3 of my vehicles are old enough were they don't have data recorders, all though one of them isn't currently drivable as it is undergoing a full restoration. The article mentions vehicles from the early 90's as having data recorders which doesn't surprise me as that was when OBD I was really becoming standard and being used to its fullest. In 96 there was the switch to OBD II which further expanded the electronic diagnostics on vehicles. If the government goes ahead with this plan eventually I could see them making it illegal to transfer ownership of a vehicle that doesn't have these data recorders, or insurance companies making insuring vehicles without them extremely expensive.
Time to offend someone
Thanks for your anecdotal evidence.
Here's mine:
I've been driving for over 10 years, have had no at-fault accidents, and only 1 accident where I was a passenger. I do a mix of city driving and long range highway driving. I spend a majority of the time driving in the right lane (I live in a country where we drive on the left) and I'm often over the speed limit. On the freeway I'm way over the speed limit, if circumstances permit.
I can assure you that I ALWAYS encounter people in the "fast lane" going beneath the speed limit, due to congestion, impatience, underpowered cars, nervous uncertain drivers, old people, and similar.
It's a regular occourence for me, to come across a truck, over taking another truck, whom is sometimes also being overtaken by another truck, blocking all 3 lanes, up a steep hill, where the one in the left hand lane is 40kmph under the speed limit, the one in the middle is 35kmph under, and the one on the right is 30kmph under. Effectively creating a giant rolling road block for the next x kmph, that it takes for all of them to overtake each other.
What I can tell you, however, is that no matter how "fast" I am going in the "fast lane" (60mph, 70mph, 80mph, even 90mph at times)--there is always at least *someone* that wants to go faster, this is why I'm a good drive, and ensure I stick left (in your country, stick right), as to not impede other drivers, force errors, and generally annoy people.
So the GP's claims of "people going 1 under" in the "fast" lane are well founded, and you are actually an idiot, who likely doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about, or speaking in overly simple generalities, as if his experiences, no matter how accurate, somehow can be correlated to the experiences of everyone.
Oh also, just to show how much fucking bullshit you're spewing, here's a video, of people, in your country, on one of your highways creating a dangerous situation, and effectively a rolling road block by... GOING THE SPEED LIMIT.
55: A Meditation on the Speed Limit (Extended Cut)
So, effectively every car behind them, especially the ones trying to get around them, would be going over the speed limit, meaning anyone going under would be a law abider, but dangerous as they haven't grasped the social norms. Especially if they're an arrogant arsehole like you, and are sitting in the "fast lane" because "I live in a state where we don't have a keep right law".
Here's a tip for you: shut the fuck up.
Wow, I really escalated this by the end. Seriously started writing and replying line by line to yours, was fine, calm headed, but by the end of yours and the end of writing this, I just wanted to stab you in the heart with a trident.
This is my footer. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
This would be a great "wedge" topic for a 2012 candidate if it gets played right. Small enough to get the public eye off the main nerve, offensive enough to sway people's votes.
I like how they call it a black box, to equate it with safety, as if it's going to be used to investigate crashes and nothing else.
The only question is, will they speed-limit every car to the speed limit on that road, force your car to brake in time to make the red lights, etc.? Or will you still be free to break the law, but check your email for the ticket and fine?
(Like there's any question which one the government would prefer, "safety" or fine revenue...)
Has been a turd since the moment Obama took office.
I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
I predicted that most INSURANCE companies should or would have these to help get a better understanding of their customers driving habits 15 years ago, as I worked for an insurance company where i pitched my idea to the president. He looked at me with a puzzled look on his face as i began to explain that we could offer better rates to our clients with the gps driven blackboxes telling us all driving info such as on 50km streets, our client was seen attaining speeds of 70 km, so for prevention reasons would tell us we should consider giving him higher rates as he is taking risks, where as the younger yet safer driver who always stays within the speeding limits, would not get high rates as per usual with younger drivers, because we would see his driving habits much quicker, so we could offer him better rates quicker....but it fell on deaf ears....
15 years later, we now see this story here where the government ( good move!) might make it obligatory to have these installed, which I agree for same reasons as 9/11, a vehicle can be used as a means of heavy destruction, so why not log all data on each....
Commercial airplanes built for shuttling around the general public is one thing. Automobiles to be sold to individuals is another. There is no good reason for this. I will not buy one. I will complain loudly to the manufactures and dealers that I would purchase the car but the black box is a 'deal killer'. This is the insurance industry's and law enforcement's wet dream. I don't care. I do not exist to make their jobs easier (actually the opposite). Hell no.
Do not wield Logic
Against the Law
Your sword will
Shatter
Aren't there cops dedicated to the investigation of accident scenes. My understanding is that they can already look at a scene and tell who hit who, from what angle, and how fast they were all going based on skid marks, car damage, lay out of wreckage, etc. All this info can be gathered using this evidence and some basic math. What else will a black box tell them that they can't already deduce from the scene?
I enjoy the bales on my car, why would I want to take them off?
You know that insurance company with the big-haired woman named 'Flo'? They already have this as a teaser to get better rates. Here's what data they collect.
Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
This is why we need a good, reliable HERF gun. "Honest your honor, I never touched it. It must have been defective." End of story.
Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
Some research from http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=NHTSA-2004-18029-0002 shows that the NHTSA doesn't have plans to regulate EDR's on cars yet.
All this boils down to the fundamental economic and social question of the cost of a life.
In modern society, in "developed" countries, people seem to be placing an extremely high value on life. The cost of a life should not be "infinite" which is the direction in which we appear to be going. Is a life worth sacrificing freedom? Is it worth spending $5 million in medical bills to treat some condition? Is it worth sacrificing standard of living?
Not to sound coarse, but only a mere 100 years ago in the US, if you had an infant or child die, you were sad for a while but then just tried to have more kids. If an elderly person fell ill, you just appreciated them and helped them depart gracefully. Today, people are for some reason willing to spend several liftetimes' income to preserve a single person (doesn't matter how old they are) for even very small increments of time.
The "safety" card is often used to justify numerous technologies that have very high cost for very small marginal benefit.
"There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
OK, grew up working on cars, trucks, boats and motorcycles. Been driving longer than I want to think about. Here we go, people drive like crazy all the time everywhere I have been. This includes, roads, dirt trails, rivers and oceans. They run way too fast with half inflated bald tires. If I see them coming I get out of the way. If they are running faster than me then they can "sweep the trees". That's an old Smokey and the Bandit reference for you young-uns out there ;)
Keep an eye on their tires. If they are running low on air or wobble or dont appear to be right, make room the vehicle is being driven by a dumb ass. Better yet, keep an eye on everything around you. We dont have robot driven cars yet.
Also, if they drive like an idiot chances are they dont do proper maintenance either. Get them out front if possible because your brakes probably work and you can stop faster than they can. Better than getting rammed in the ass. Well, that's debatable, depending on your sexual leanings. Sorry, could not resist. Cant wait to hear the comments on that one from this homophobic crowd. snark snark.
Find the gaps and get in them, if possible. These breeders run in packs. If you are running in a pack and someone screws up it is more likely that you'll be
involved in an accident. Get some room around you if possible. Open up a gap between you and the next car. Let the tail-gaters pass and try to find a like minded driver. Then you got a decent gap in front and a decent gap in back. It all boils down to proximity and reaction time.
Final bit of advice, keep your car clean and shiny and don't skrimp on the maintenance. If I hit the gas it should go, hit the brakes it should stop. Don't try to get the last few thousand miles out of those tires, pit stop and re-tire. If all else fails pass em in the ditch and never hit em head on. Anything but that.
All that said and done, I think freedom is related to population. The more people you have living basically right next to each other, the less freedom you get. Oh, I changed my sig the other day to better reflect my RedNeck roots. Perfectly fitting for this article. Black boxes, bring em on. It's about time.
This aint Daytona and you aint Dale Earnhardt. So stop trying to draft on Interstate 40.
the black boxes exist in cars today. the story is about how the implementation of the black boxes are highly proprietary (and optional). the proposed standardization, besides the requirement to install them, is talking about how to standardize the boxes and provide some consistency to the design.
Once they put a device in your car that can record your movements, it is a slippery slope to using this device, for instance, to track your movements, to automatically give you a ticket by email when you speed, or to disable control of the vehicle remotely when the authorities want to control your movements.
Roads are built and maintained using taxpayer and toll money. If you pay taxes and don't accept government entitlements, you do own the roads. If you're a leech on society you do not own the roads.
No matter what law they pass I will not comply with this and do not think any American that has ever read the constitution should.
This is straight illegal search and seizure and a clear violation of our constitutional rights!!
I'd sooner stop buying cars and maintain my current ones for the next 100 years then submit to even more monitoring.
We have to stop this tide of automated police enforcement and monitoring!!! Live free or die trying!
Our men and women do not die every day to support tyranny at home, bring them home for operation Washington DC and see how they like some UAVs keeping tabs on them and enjoy a police state till they get the clue to support freedom for real and not make a mockery of our rights.
How many of you have went 80 mph once without realizing it and quickly slowed down when you found out?
Well that can now be used agaisnt you. Even if your a good driver and those few moments have absolutely nothing to do with a particular accident, you will have a lawyer making you look guilty as hell and slandering your reputation. Only can be used in court? The lawyers will have access. Bad
http://saveie6.com/
...it's called a smartphone. I use SpeedView to keep a permanent GPS record of all my driving, FuelLog to track my MPG, AutoBoy Blackbox to actually video record driving and automatically record crashes and call 911.
I voluntarily WANT this whenever I drive. I'm a great driver. Other people are idiots and assholes. And anytime I want, I'll post your bad driving on Youtube along with your license plate number. Also, I've had a cop give me a ticket for doing 65 in a 55, and I was actually doing 45 (I didn't even know I could ! Never again.
We don't need mandatory black boxes for idiots. There are enough of us good drivers would will be recording all of you bad drivers voluntarily. I do it for the lulz AND the $$$ when I sue the next guy who crosses 3 lanes and causes me to be in a multicar pile up.
Argue what you want about mandatory boxes in the FUTURE, I've got you on camera NOW, lmao.
I8-D
The courts have also ruled that authorities may access that data
Is there any 4th, or 5th ammendment caselaw on this?
Surely if the courts have already decreed that "the owner of the vehicle owns the data", the right to avoid self-incrimination would apply even in the face of an unsuccessful 4th amendment argument...
Disclaimer: I am neither an American, nor a lawyer...
-AC
I'll stick with my '60s vehicles to drive every day. Simple and reliable, which is more than I can say about fuel injection and computer controls. No black boxes, nothing for government to track or use against me. The kicker, MPG has not increased significantly since the early 60s when econoboxes were getting over 30 MPG. With an overdrive transmission and an engine built for MPG 40+ is not unreasonable.
Used to be the main wiring harness for a car was as thick as your thumb. Now it's bigger than your fist and contains so many wires it's not possible to 'repair' cars any longer, now it's diagnostic computer to tell you what's wrong, pull the part the computer tells you to, and replace it with a spare rather than try to repair the part.
What has been left out of this ENTIRE black box equation is: The first thing to fail on cars (aside from the water pump), is the electrical system. My current car has practically every light on the dash lit up telling me there's 'problems' with the car, check engine, check airbags, check brakes, yadda yadda. But there's nothing actually wrong with the car, I've checked it. It's that the computer isn't getting the right voltages to some of the modules that drive the dash -- my speedometer shows the wrong speed, all my gauges are slightly off, cruise control no longer works, etc.
But the car itself runs and drives, stops great, handles well, passes emissions, etc. But the electrical system itself is screwed up, and it's more to "repair" (i.e. take it to the dealer and have them strip out the whole harness and replace the dash) than the car is worth.
So I drive it as is, and ignore all the lights on the dash. I perform all the regular maintenance to make sure everything's OK, and I'm diligent to make sure none of the lights are registering any REAL problem.
So, this "black box"... How well is that going to work when the electrical system is screwed up? My guess is: not well at all. And any lawyer worth his outrageous fee will be able to challenge any ruling on that basis.
As cars age, they get less and less able to get the right voltages to all the parts that rely on them. This is due to rust adding resistance to the ground, which all run through the body. Unless they are going to re-engineer all cars to have a main ground strap that's NOT the body of the car itself, this system isn't going to work after a car is more than 6 or 7 years old.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
You'll be able to download your car's black box data and bring it into court to challenge a speeding ticket. All the cops napping by the side of the road with their radar guns on are going to freak.
Have gnu, will travel.
okay so you want a "black box" in "MY CAR" fine with me
1 i get to have a "dump port" on the box so that i can see what is being recorded and said port shall be a standard microUSB port placed in a known location accessible while seated in the drivers seat.
2 merge the engine computer data into the box as well
3 if the GPS data shows i was in fact within tolerence for safe driving then any tickets get ripped up on site
(so if an officer radars me at plus 20 and the GPS data shows me either at the speed limit or within 5 miles then no ticket)
4 all data from the black box shall be considered "gospel" as far as a court of law is concerned (i would assume that the cars will be able to ID the current driver as well)
give me those points and sure you can require a "black box"
oh and for the "I want a Pony also" point give OnStar a federal contract to provide basic/EMS service to all cars with the BlackBox installed FREE OF CHARGE TO THE OWNERS.
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
These devices will be mandatory on all new vehicles within 5 years. The insurance industry is a very powerful lobby and a tool that would hand them a reason to no pay a claim (based on the new "black box" clauses they'll be putting in their policies) is a gift from heaven, er... from their bought-and-paid-for lap-dogs in Congress.
Tampering with vehicle emission controls is already illegal ( at least in my state). I think we could all benefit from these black boxes. Chances are accessing the data by authorities will require a warrant. If so, then they would probably would have access to your entire vehicle anyways. So, please put down the tin foil hats.
Good luck fitting a useful EDR to a pre-OBD vehicle. NHTSA means to mandate EDRs in all new vehicles. Here's a more accurate article: http://dvice.com/archives/2011/05/feds-to-require.php
Mandatory black boxes are not a very green solution. Assuming the device is built strong enough to survive the impact and fire, etc, the weight of it and the various wiring and sensors will be around 50lbs. Now an extra 50 lbs of weight in a car will reduce mileage a bit. One car, not too bad, but a 2.5 million vehicles and that reduced fuel economy adds up to measurable numbers.
Black boxes are only useful after the fact to determine who to blame for an accident. 90% of the time, that is not an issue. For the other 10%, is it worth using ever dwindling oil supplies?
YAH! The future is here!
fifth element: "You have 5 points on your license."
Encryption: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to encrypt it...
The cost of getting a warrant for car black box data will exceed its value in most criminal cases the government doesnt need black boxes to catch you speeding it can do it just fine with automatic speeding cameras. If there is an accident that the vehicle is a party to that is prima facie probable cause.
Where it will revolutionize matters is in civil negligence cases. There is no 5th amendment right against civil discovery, plaintiffs in accident cases will almost certainly subpoena black box records to prove speeding, while defendants can use the information to exonerate themselves and for countersuits. Contributory negligence is not "sleazy tricks" its a basic part of tort law.
Dont you wonder why its the NHTSA that wants this data not the police. Its because it makes it easier to collect aggregate data after accidents and spot defect issues for mandatory recalls.
It is already illegal to modify the odometer on your car. This might be considered to be similar enough for a working precedent to this situation. What I wonder is how much tracking information will be in the boxes and if that will be "optional" or otherwise required as part of disclosure about your car.
Hopefully like the current state of emissions, anything built pre-emissions is not required to follow the standard, IE a 57 Chevy is not required to have a catalytic converter. I hope this holds true for black boxes. If that's the case, I can expect alot of tin foil hatters to pay top dollar for my once worthless Yugo.
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
The government wants to tax by the mile so they have to have a "black box" with gps to record how far you drive.
Used cars, anyone? Have I got a deal for you. A pre-blackbox sedan with only 250K miles. Cheap at twice the price! :rolleyes:
the abs and airbag controllers already know how fast you were going and how hard you hit and what gear you were in (and some know if you were wearing your seatbelt) the police and insurance companies have had the tools do extract this data for years already ......
I'm split on the subject; without any clear-cut information about what this box would actually be used for, who would have access to it, and what sort of fees are associated with it (come on, it's the government - they're going to charge owners to have it installed, and I wouldn't doubt a yearly fee as well), I can't agree or disagree with it, but I'm starting to lean towards the more negative side. There is a massive chance for agencies to abuse the hell out of this, especially insurance companies. Not to mention the privacy invasion. I understand that the government tries to regulate things we own for our own safety, but at what point is it too much? Smoke Detectors are one thing, but these boxes could potentially hurt the automotive industry. If people don't feel safe, or like they're being watched, they aren't going to drive, they'll find some other way to get around. I feel that this is going to be used more for law enforcement as time goes by. Politicians will just sneak a couple more allowances into random bills until they do what they want. Just my thoughts.
Why add an expensive piece of equipment that is ripe for abuse. There are some difficulties with plain mileage if you cross state borders a lot. But lets keep it simple.
The better the system is at monitoring your every move and controlling your communication, the easier it is for the increasingly small number of people operating it to make you do what you don't want to do. When the systems are in place expect ever more restrictions to follow.
Don't count on the majority of moaning idlers to join you in protest. They are lazy and will happily walk into the milking pen even as they complain about it.
We are already many miles down the path to a society where the few control the many for their own ends while you, if you are of any use to them at all, will be left to live your life in your open prison.
I would be fine with it if it just held the last 15 minuets of data. That way if you get in an accident the authorities could get just the pertinent information.
Many people making false insurance claims may end up in jail or with expensive, failed civil suits if the black boxes make the right measurements. For example when two cars are backing out of a parking space and collide was one standing still and how fast was the guilty party really backing up.
Good luck getting people to tie them onto their bicycles. Maybe it would lower bicycle theft though.
Also I don't even have room for a cigarette lighter on my motorcycle or really the spare amps to power anything off it.
get a bicycle.
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
So. You can neither spell nor think.
Awesome that you do so publicly.
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
Every day some new boondoggle is revealed from Washington DC. Let's just cancel the federal government.
This is government at its absolute best. Coming up with an idea that will foment an entirely new and useless bureaucracy we can all fund.
Why not install Gov Police cameras in every house?
Same thing isnt it?
Assuming no tampering, that is. As has been said elsewhere, GPS goes well beyond "tracking mileage."
To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
We owners and users of said vehicles will have no access to our own data, right? Other than 24/7 surveilance, what do I win?
These boxes don't
provide safety, the boxes provide the ILLUSION of safety
while providing the ability of the government to track everyone.
If you think that is a good tradeoff, you are my enemy.
The boxes don't provide safety or the illusion of safety. They provide accountability.
Whether it's reasonable to be required to have an automated system in your car that can provide evidence against you if something goes wrong is another matter. I don't really like the idea, personally: the car is mine, it should work for me.
Bow-ties are cool.
Anybody know where the black box is on a 2005 prius? Is there anything useful I can do with it? thanks
Would the reverse be true? If the owner of the vehicle owns the data, we own public vehicles thru our taxes... we should have full visibility to police, fire, etc. data from those black boxes.
Should the fact that you parked in your mistress's driveway for 2 hours over lunch be something the police can make publicly available?
Damn right. This sort of shit needs to be public. Homewreakers need to die.
Then why should removing it be illegal if it's my car?
Simple.. because if you don't have one during an accident, you're guilt by default!
On a related topic, don't try to disconnect your car's odometer, either. Just because you own it and it's under your control does not mean you can do with it as you choose. It provides a measure of vehicle use which is legally required to be of reasonable accuracy.
In fact, it is almost always illegal to disconnect or tamper with a car's odometer. It does not matter whether the vehicle is for sale or not, or whether it is still under warranty or not. If used to support a deceitful sale or false warranty claim, odometer fraud is considered a serious crime in the UK and US. It's not just a civil matter, but a criminal one, which could get you into a PMITA shared residence on the taxpayers' nickel.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
There is a much cheaper solution. Just issue a dashboard placard based on vehicle, driver age and gender. It will forcast the conditions just prior to any accident. Here are some examples:
1) Male, age 35-50, sedan: 4th gear, 40mph, 2,300rpm, failure to stop, talking on phone with office, mishandling hot beverage.
2) Female, age 25-35, SUV/van, 4th gear, 36mph, failure to yield, comforting toddler in back-seat.
3) Male, age 17-25, import hatchback, 2nd gear, 6,400rpm, 50mph, failure to negotiate turn. Excessive speed.
4) Female, age 17-25, compact coupe, 3rd gear, 3,000rpm, 42mph, failure to stop. Texting and shuffling music CDs.
5) Male/Female, age 78-88, large domestic sedan or Toyota Avalon, 1st gear, 4,500rpm, 12mph, indicating right turn while accelerating through store front.
-=-=-=-=- osjedi uses Debian GNU/Linux. -=-=-=-=-
What a sorry state the US has become. All the freedoms that made the US great as all being taken away. Now you have warrentless searches and wiretaps, big brother watching your driving and the only thing free is the groping when you travel on a plane.
The US has become that which it should fight against - a dictator state made by the business for the the business. It is truly sad to see what is happening to a modern failing super power.
IAAL. Most current car models already have a black box that keeps a rolling record of accident analysis information -- acceleration, braking, steering -- that holds the most recent 30 seconds or so of events. Lawyers who handle car crash litigation now automatically ask for the box. Even though the information belongs to the car owner, that information is "put in dispute" when the owner asserts lack of fault and so can be obtained by the opponent. This is revolutionizing accident litigation. I suspect that there are already illegal services that change the black box records to show lack of fault.
Why is it that more and more people are willing to give up freedoms and privacy for what "appears" to be increased safey? To me, if 10,000 more people "escape getting a deserved ticket" in order to maintain my freedom of driving (no black boxes in cars), I am fine with that! To take the point further, I would say if 10,000 more people (myself and family included) had to DIE to keep our right to privacy alive (no ridiculous procedures at the airport, no black boxes, no video cameras ANYWHERE, no big brother, period!) I would say it would be a welcome trade! Why don't more people think this way? What's the point of living if you aren't free and have no privacy? Instead, people say "if giving up my privacy/freedom/etc. would save even 1 life, it's worth it!" I *strongly* disagree...freedom first!!!
I guess all the tin foil hats are pissing them off.
Will track where ever your car has been.
Fucking right its not a police state. Its not a police state if your fucking your uncle .
Hitler only dreamed of this shit.
Can that box determine when I am drifting ala Fast and Furious style?
The world is how you make it
If you want to tax road usage. GPS tracking you is for another reason.
I will refuse any GPS tracker in my car.
This is another infringement on your privacy. It will begin with very limited access, then it will became another method of getting into your pocket. This is just another reason why we need Ron Paul as president rather than business as usal.
What state do you live in that you can pass inspection with the "check engine" light lit?