Slashdot Mirror
School Super Asks Governor To Make His School District a Prison
quipalicious writes "A Michigan school super asks the state governor to make his school district a prison, highlighting the various rights and privileges that prisoners get and public schooling students don't."
Sometimes I would like to be able to give +1 Insightful to articles outside Slashdot :)
Don't forget that it would take also take care of the truancy problem.
Public school teachers are in much the same position as prison wardens. Wardens' main concern is to keep the prisoners on the premises. They also need to keep them fed, and as far as possible prevent them from killing one another. Beyond that, they want to have as little to do with the prisoners as possible, so they leave them to create whatever social organization they want. From what I've read, the society that the prisoners create is warped, savage, and pervasive, and it is no fun to be at the bottom of it.
In outline, it was the same at the schools I went to. The most important thing was to stay on the premises. While there, the authorities fed you, prevented overt violence, and made some effort to teach you something. But beyond that they didn't want to have too much to do with the kids. Like prison wardens, the teachers mostly left us to ourselves. And, like prisoners, the culture we created was barbaric.
from "Why Nerds are Unpopular"
Sounds like someone with the incredible powers of learning and studying.
he's not very good at writing English.
We also spend the most money per prisoner annually than any other state in the union.
Yes, I know, cheap shot. Also IDK if school superintendants are usually teachers. But if he is, that doesn't bode well for his students.
Don't some cable co's give free Internet to schools? I know that directv has free SCHOOL CHOICE programming. http://support.directv.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2466/~/how-much-does-school-choice-programming-cost%3F Prison cable tv is not free it's payed for with over priced prison commissary food and goods. Why not go all the way and rent out the cloakrooms to the prison system.
We rank nationally at the top in the number of people we incarcerate. We also spend the most money per prisoner annually than any other state in the union
In the business of government, that's called success. The more spending you can justify, the more you can leverage that cash flow for personal gain.
Am I saying the people at the top of the pyramid are there purely for personal gain? You're damn right I am.
Sounds like a school which has become self aware and has begun to address some of the flaws in its existance
There is no -1 disagree
I grew up near Ithaca, MI. It's out in the middle of BFE. I can't really see him being superintendent for much longer though ballsy move but not really smart.
Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted.
While I appreciate the point that the superintendent was trying to make (especially given the relative funding difference per person), I'm sure that the students would have some things to say about being forced to remain inside the school for 24 hours a day. Prisons spend so much money and provide items such as health care, exercise facilities and food because those people are forced to be there. You can't really just offer lunch in prison. Besides, I think the dollar argument is disingenuous. Comparing dollar figures for people that are in prison 24 hours a day / 365 days a year to those that are in school for 180 days a year / 8 hours a day on a per capital basis isn't exactly fair. From the article itself, $35,000 a year for a prisoner divided by 8,760 hours (24 hours * 365 days) is roughly $4.00 an hour. $7,000 a year for a student divided by 1,440 hours (8 hours * 180 days) is $4.86 per hour. By that metric, they are spending 22% MORE per student on an hourly basis than they are on a prisoner.
...your teachers and principals were tough!
I8-D
Haven't you watched The Simpsons? It's short for "superintendent", as in "Superintendent Chalmers", the guy that Skinner is usually showing around doing inspections.
If schools were prisons, the children would be forced to work during the day making stuff.
About time those little bastards become useful.
Was anyone else reminded of The Simpsons episode where they did this?
Didn't work out so well for them.
Yes, executive oversight and administration rights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superintendent_(education)
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Does this guy know what public schools are for? They're for education. If people don't have a roof over their head, they get public housing. If people don't get three meals, they get food stamps or go to the local soup kitchen. If they don't have access to a fitness center, they get the Y. Want to earn a degree? Earn some scholarships, grants, or go the loan route, or get out into industry and go to night school. Books and computers? Public libraries typically have those.
It sounds like he does actually want to make a prison, because prison is likely the only place you'll find all that together. That doesn't mean they're not provided to the non-incarcerated. This type of thinking sends the school systems down the path of being replacement parents. That should not be our end goal.
Turning the school into a prison for the government benefits... Simpsons did it first!
Also, most students would agree that schools are prisons already, anyway.
super is short for superintendent basically the chief school administrator for a district of schools.
Beware of those who profit off the docile and persecute the unbelievers.
ah, you mean Super Nintendo Chalmers ...
If you don't fund public education, what do you think the kids will do?
I mean, they've committed the crime of being born poor.Obviously, only people who can afford private school should be able to educate their kids, right? This must be the meritocracy I keep hearing you talk about. You do understand a true meritocracy requires you to SPEND to make sure everyone starts out on equal footing right? Oh i"m sorry, nevermind, that's "socialism."
Oh I agree, there is a lot of waste in the system and teachers and administrators are paid too well with too many perks. But with that valid complaint, instead of trying to REFORM where public school funds go, you just want to defund it. Those evil poor people, trying to get educated. Tsk, tsk. Let us keep our focus on where our concerns should naturally be: keeping taxes low for the rich. Those poor rich, people trying to rob them of the money they made completely by themselves, without any input from the infrastructure their country made possible, right? (The country they SAY they love.)
Anyway: I'll tell you what those kids will do without good public education: they'll become criminals. You've taught them with your priorities that poor Americans should hurry up and die as far as you are concerned (healthcare anyone?). With that kind of leadership, the poor will hear you loud and clear and return the amount of respect you give them: it's not about helping each other as Americans, it's about "I got mine already, so fuck you." That's a perfect segue to a gun in your backside and a request for your wallet, no? You reap what you sow Republicans. The quality of your society is dictated by your policies and your attitudes towards your fellow American.
See, the funny thing about education costs, healthcare costs, is that if you don't pay these expenses, they don't just go away. They still COST you, but in terms of the quality of the society you live in instead. What, too "socialist" for you? Reality. Learn it.
Of course, Republicans are "tough on crime." So this principle will get what he wants in jest, in reality: more prisons, less schools. No costs there, right Republicans? It's what the poor deserve: prisons, not schools, right? Tells us all we need to know about your love for your country and your fellow citizens. Just stop believing anyone buys your lies anymore, you selfish shortsighted assholes.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
First of all, juvenile prisons actually have their own schools (sometimes their own special school districts), and those schools are often even more poorly funded than public schools (since they don't have a property tax base to rely on). Most of the money for juvenile justice agencies and their facilities goes toward security, probation/parole supervision, facilities maintenance, etc. NOT just for education (as this letter writer seems to presume). And some adult prison systems don't have any real education system AT ALL.
So the average prisoner is getting much *less* per person for actual education than the average student in any given state. As to his points about free health care, threes square a day, etc.; well that's getting in much larger social issues that has little to do with direct school funding.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
and by the graduation rates in Detroit and the surrounding area I am very sure he has an audience who buys into this.
If anything I would love to ask him the same question I would pose the law enforcement. Each year we spend more and more money per person served in your respective professions but where is the improvement or meeting of goals?
School spending alone has increased at an incredible rate since the founding of the Department of Education but scores and graduation rates aren't on the same course. The War on Drugs hasn't exactly benefited this country either, if anything it has gotten us some of the most onerous laws (think seizure laws) that only were trumped by the current War on Terror
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Last I checked, students have parents who are, or should be, responsible for meals, healthcare, clothing, and "a roof over their heads". I have never been to a school without a library. Computer labs, weight rooms, and internet access are nice to have but not necessary. Cable TV has no place in school. And, every student who graduates earns a degree.
Maybe that school superintendent should propose all kids be put in government run creches until they reach maturity so the parents don't have to be responsible for providing for and raising the kids at all.
But, then, I don't think prisoners should have Internet, Cable TV, weight rooms, and computer labs. Library access and courses should be earned privileges if they are available at all. I think prison and jail are too comfortable.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
The output from the bottom 90% will be buying "Made in China" not "Designing in the USA". $7000 is more than enough to contain, feed, medicate, test, stream and scholarship out the very few that are truly gifted but trapped by poverty.
That $30,000 and $40,000 is part of an often private prison–industrial complex and generates real wealth for generations of investors.
The $7000 number should be seen as more as an introduction to a life on food stamps.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
If you think spending money is how you obtain a good education, I invite you to send your kids to Camden, NJ. One of the poorest crime-ridden cities in America. Which happens to spend upwards of $13K per student (last time I checked).
The keys to a good education are parenting and hard work. And while money helps, you don't need lots of money to get a good environment. From what I've read the best thing you could do is kick out troublesome kids.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
The old "these guys sit around all day watching cable TV" crap is also a tired old myth. AFAIK, no mainstream prison system in the country offers prisoners cable TV (some will allow a prisoner to purchase a small TV for their cell on their own dime and watch whatever over-the-air broadcasts they can get). And, far from sitting around, all juvenile prisoners in the U.S. go to school every day (just like their non-prison counterparts) and most adult prisoners have some sort of job (either in the prison or, for lower risk offenders, outside). So the idea that these guys in prisons are on some sort of vacation is just ridiculous.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
A school superintendent is the person who oversees the whole school district and the school principles. Principals oversee individual schools.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
...that Jonathan Swift wrote "A Modest Proposal?" I mean, I've seen some people make rather ham-handed attempts at a satirical suggestion, and everyone goes 'Yeah, yeah, Modest Proposal, uh-huh," but are folks on /. actually thinking this guy is being anything but satirical? Yeesh.
"I am an Adept of Tantric VAX."
This has to be one of the stupidest comparisons I've heard in a while. Children are not prisoners. The intended goals are different from the start. We must, out of necessity, keep prisoners confined at all times, for the safety of society. Things like TV, libraries and weight rooms are not luxuries, but investments, because studies have shown that if you stick a violent psychopath into a cell for 20 years, you get a violent psychopath out. These things are intended to help reduce the recidivism rate for criminals, not to make them comfortable.
The educational system doesn't need to provide healthcare to students. Unlike prisoners, we haven't taken away the students' (or more accurately, their parents) ability to provide healthcare for themselves. We don't need to house them at night because that's not in any way part of the mandate of the educational system. Our educational system isn't charged with keeping students separated from the general populous, and it isn't responsible for punishing them for crimes they have committed.
This is like saying "The government provides NASA with $65 million per astronaut trained. I demand that the government provide my school with $65 million per student." When we have idiots like this superintendent running school systems, it's no wonder they're in trouble.
-Arthur
Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
I've always wondered if Principle Skinner was named after B.F Skinner (inventor of the operant conditioning chamber).
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Really? We look to to schools to to fix the problems with with society?
There's nothing in the constitution that indicates everyone, much less prisoners, are entitled to weight rooms, libraries, internet access, or "free" health care.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Can't say I can see any holes in his reasoning. If we even spent half the money on our children as we do on our prisoners, there would be no issue with America's future. But we don't. So there are huge concerns.
This signature has Super Cow Powers
By pointing out that the kids were likely to end up in prison, thus receiving what they need, he made his argument moot.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
I find myself using actually slashdot moderation speak outside of, including the phrase "+1 Informative" in a reply to a post or somesuch.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
Instead of trying to reclassify (or whatever the correct term is) schools as prisons, why not do the opposite? Reclassify prisons as schools and require inmates to attend regular classes. Who would teach these classes? Well, the Teacher's Unions/School Districts have "rubber rooms" where teachers who have been removed from the classroom are sent (along with full salary and benefits, btw). NYC has some 650 teachers in rubber rooms as of a year ago. These teachers could be reassigned to teach inmates.
At least the commas decided to show up this time, but the preposition at the end... ugh
"Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put."
Winston Churchill
I went to a southern small town high school in the 90's and it wasn't air conditioned. 90-100 degrees and 100% humidity for several months out of the school year. During that time, a nearby state prison was closed because it was not air conditioned.
Godaddy is a scam and a ripoff.
I think Superintendent Nathan Bootz has a point.
The budgetary axe falls on those least able to defend themselves. Children, seniors, the sick and homeless have all "taken one for the team" (in most cases more than once).
In the meantime, other areas in the budget grab bag are given a complete pass. "Defense" spending on the Federal level, the prison industry, the multiple "soft wars" (Drugs/Terrorism/Crime/et. al), as well as others, all remain sacrosanct.
For decades politicians have screwed up in prioritizing what's really important, versus what's politically palatable, or profitable. Bootz is simply trying to make the point that once again politicians are making more poor choices when it comes to being "fiscally responsible".
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through my restraints.
First off, fair call by you to post a correction to your original post.
But perhaps a further correction: you note the private/ independent school you went to had fees of $15K. However, I would think it's very unlikely that the school income was solely based on students fees, so the likelihood is that your education may have cost more than $15K. Other factors include: private schools in the UK registered as charities so receiving tax breaks, VAT breaks, donations from alumni, sponsorship from other commercial partners, value of investments (your $15K would likely have been invested rather than just divided amongst the teachers ;-) ). Though of course maybe they spent less on you and kept the rest as profit :-)
But you're correct about state schools struggling for money though.
I doubt the superintendent wrote this. My high school English teacher would have thrown the book at him! I highlighted all the typo and grammar mistakes in bold. Not only would a superintendent have better writing skills... he would have proofread a letter he was sending to the governor. I'm thinking someone else wrote this and is falsely attributing it to this guy... unless Mr. Bootz is trying to make the point that budget cuts have been so severe the district is only paying for the use of part of his brain.
If you mean errors, how about: "We also spend the most money per prisoner annually than any other state in the union." I suppose I should be pleased that it was "than" and not "then", but really, if a school superintendent wrote that, we're boned.
Schools have a captive audience : students and parents have no choices in schools or curriculum, something that most nations take for granted. Consequently, schools don't have to care, and they don't have to hold themselves to high standards.
Abolishing the public school system is necessary for the USofA to recover from the social and economic disaster we are in. The schools cost far too much and have a very high rate of failure, both obvious and hidden. The obvious failures are dropouts and illiterate graduates. The hidden failures are the students who learn to hate learning, who start drugs or anti-social activities as a result of their bad experiences in school.
Around the world, adult illiterates only require 90 hours in a classroom to become literate enough to continue their education, entirely on their own. This is with books, not a computer and the internet. They can then begin college in 2 or 3 years.
There is an 'unschooling' movement in the US that shows that children in groups, given access to games, computers, books, ... teach each other to read, write, do arithmetic. Continued through high school, these students go to college just like everyone else.
So, schools are completely obsolete. There is no more hope of 'reforming' the public school system than there is of patching Windows to make it a robust, reliable and secure OS.
"The Constitution, the WHOLE Constitution, and nothing but the CONSTITUTION."
He may be an embarrassment, but at least he shouldn't be THE MOST embarrassed THAN you.
Or, alternatively:
Why do we pamper criminals and starve the future?
Why does a criminal get better access to education than the education system?
How bad does the school system have to be for a school super to ask for his school to be made into a prison to get his kids more substance. .....sad, really sad.
All in all, if inmates enjoy more reading materials, better quality food, better quality security, etc...etc.... I guess it goes to show you how badly set up our government is. The fact is, if the budget allows for inmates to get more for being incarcerated, then the student does for going to school in the US, there is a gross negligence on the governments part for keeping their eye on the ball. The government will know exactly how much you make and how much you owe in taxes over the course of your life, and be able to pinpoint exactly at what time or line in your tax return you made a small 30$ error, which they will charge you interest for, but
ask them to come up with a better system where inmates DONT get more then students....and they will just ignore you and leave you thinking they are just inept at what they do.
effectively killing public education (which is GOP Job #2 after zero taxes for the rich and corporations) is the quickest way to destroy an egalitarian society and replace it with Fuedalism 2.0, where landed gentry have educational access and the permanent poor are left to sink or swim in a cesspool of Darwinian Economics.
Yes, Public Education is flawed and in need of fixing (including tenure for the incompenent and ambivialent), but actively pushing for its destruction is pretty damn un-American.
Sounds like another libertarian rant.
Culture has more to do with it than most and parenting are likely the biggest factor.
The USA did quite well until recently on its antiquated system. The politicians and the pursuit of perfection (politically its impossible even if it was possible --which it is not) have done a great deal of harm to the system that was largely left alone by them. It was acceptable to just have a dumb kid and let them out of high school unable to read-- it was a small minority and it doesn't sound nice; however, in trying to leave no child behind we are wrecking the system that served us well during the nation's most successful years. I'm all for applying modern science to education; however, I'd rather just go back 50 years than have the broken political process and selfish ignorant (but confident) American parents of today attempt to "fix" the system because it usually gets worse each time they mess with it.
Technology has done more harm than good to education; I'm sure that will upset some people's beliefs (and that is all it is) but as a 'nerd' I can admit it has not been helpful overall. Maybe that will change but it has not been the case up to now. I'm including television, which is greatly harmful to all of society. Its called the boob tube for a reason....
I would have taught myself; but I'm a 'freak'. I wouldn't have learned some useful things if I were not forced to do so; so I will admit that the education system was beneficial.... now if it was worth it... that I can't say for certain.
Sure, kids who are uninvolved in any extracurricular activities and don't use the school bus for transportation are only "on the clock" 8 hours per day. But this ignores extracurricular activities, sports, bussing, breakfast programs prior to the start of the school day, etc. It's not unusual for a child to catch the bus at 6 or 6:30 in the morning not be dropped back off until 3:30 or 4:00 in the afternoon. Some schools also offer breakfast programs prior to the start of the school day. And if a child is involved in sports programs, drama programs, has been assigned detention, etc., he or she may be on campus until late evening. It also ignores dances (homecomings, proms, etc.) and attendance of spectators at sporting events. And what about summer programs?
So a simplified 180 * 8 calculation for hours per child per year isn't really any more fair than just comparing annual amounts spent per warm body.
I went to an independent school in the UK, and the school fees were less than that, even accounting for inflation.
Being a product of a private school education myself, the tuition does not (usually) pay for all the costs of a school. The $7000 per student per year figure is total cost Tuition is a form of revenue which has nothing to do with cost. At the school I went to, tuition paid for about 2/3 of the school budget and the rest came from alumni donations, fundraisers, the state and various other sources. In public schools, tax revenues typically pays for all the costs.
Actually $7000 per student per year is fairly low by US schooling standards. There are a lot of costs that most people never consider. Administration, maintenance, physical plant, insurance, security, lunches, athletics, supplies, busing, heating, cooling, phone, internet, power, benefits, and more. Schools are very expensive to run and it's not easy to find ways to make them more efficient. (productivity doesn't scale well in schools) Teacher salaries are the biggest cost but there is a HUGE amount of overhead in any school. $7000 doesn't go nearly as far as most people seem to think it does.
Disclosure: I'm am a certified accountant
I think that's exactly what he is suggesting, just in a Modest Proposal sort of way.
http://thewaronkids.com/
Compulsory school already is essentially a day prison, or, as this superintendent points out, in some ways worse.
Homschooling is becoming an option for more and more... But ultimately, we need a change like giving the funds directly to parents instead of the schools so the free market can supply the educational services (or the family), as I outline here:
http://www.pdfernhout.net/towards-a-post-scarcity-new-york-state-of-mind.html
Or a more general basic income...
http://basicincome.iovialis.org/e00.html
See also:
http://the-open-boat.com/Gatto.html
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm
http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
My wife is a middle school teacher. She's taught in both public and private schools. She might only be in the classroom for roughly ten months of the year, but believe me, she works hard all twelve.
Summer break is not a vacation -- she's busy developing curriculum for the next year and keeping current as a teacher. She teaches English and history. She spends these months of non-classroom time reading voraciously, watching videos, going to conferences, and otherwise boning up on her profession and subject matter expertise, in addition to pulling together materials for specific curricular segments.
I can hear some complaints coming already, along the lines of Oh, sure, but why can't any teacher just use off-the-shelf materials, or at least recycle what they used before? How much has changed since last year? Surprisingly more than most people seem to think. For English, what was deemed the best practice for teaching grammar and mechanics, or writing skills, or reading comprehension, or what have you changes as teachers, researchers, and others learn what works and what doesn't. For history, new research is constantly changing, broadening, and expanding our understanding of what happened in the past. My wife has had to rework her "early man" unit extensively since she first began teaching it in order to include much new information that wasn't widely known even ten years ago, such as that Neanderthal did indeed interbreed with Homo sapiens in Europe, or that the Denisova hominin was a fully distinct third branch of humanity running around at the same time as Neanderthal and Homo sapiens that later worked its way into the gene base of the modern population of Melanesia.
Any teacher that doesn't keep abreast of the state of the art in the field grows stale, and threatens to become a liability to their students. It takes considerable time and effort to stay on top of the development of human knowledge, so much that it is not possible to do this and teach a full load at the same time. This makes summer break extremely important for teachers' professional development, and for the development of the materials for the coming school year.
Good teachers already *do* work hard for 12 months out of the year.
(Note that I'm not saying one thing or the other about the public/private debate, or about tenure in general. Some of what you say, I find I agree with. I only take issue with the apparent assumption in your post that all teachers are somehow slacking off during the summer break.)
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
I had a graduating class of around 70 people. I knew them all, and had been to school with some of them since preschool.
This was in the public system in northern Virginia. Granted, my school was the oddball, but even so, the smaller class sizes were a major factor behind the more cohesive community we were able to build there. The county high schools had staggered hours too, so kids wanting programs that weren't available at our school could structure their class schedules so they could go to another school in the county to participate for that particular program (generally sports).
Talking with the people I grew up with, those of us who went to the smaller high schools (not just my own) generally had the better experiences. YMMV, of course.
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
I wish I could take CmdrTaco out for dinner. We'd have a lovely meal together, three courses, but sharing a dessert. I'd pay the bill. After that, we'd go for drinks together at a little bar around the corner from the restaurant where we ate dinner. Him and I would both be fairly drunk at the end of the night, and while walking together back to a hotel room we'd booked earlier that day, we'd stumble into an alleyway, and start passionately making out with each other. I'd pull away for a moment, holding his face in my hands, and gaze into his eyes while telling him how beautiful he is. Then he'd kiss me once, take my head in his hands, and push me down onto my knees, at which point I'd give him the most incredible blowjob of his life. Once we were done, we'd hurry back to the hotel room, where he would throw me onto the bed, climb on top of me, and kiss me softly, before holding me down and taking me hard and fast, right there. Afterwards, I'd suck his magnificent cock again, before lying back in his arms, to spoon a while before dozing off to sleep together.
>mfw I'm so sad this will never happen, while also a little ashamed at imagining it so much.