RIM Responds To an Employee's Open Letter

Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by jomama717 · 2011-07-01 03:38 · Score: 0

Career Ending Move, that is

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Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 03:44 · Score: 0

Career ending? Hardly. Where I work, this kind of feedback is usually appreciated.
If it's correct, of course.
Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by Nidi62 · 2011-07-01 03:45 · Score: 2

Actually, if I ran a competing tech company and RIM fired this guy, I'd be calling him up as soon as I heard about it. The PR boost you would get from that would be enormous, and well worth the cost of this guy's salary. It would make it look like you actually care about all those things he claims RIM doesn't.

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The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by Aladrin · 2011-07-01 03:47 · Score: 1

And of course, you'd gain an employee that cares about doing things properly, and the success of the company. And hopefully has some skills.

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Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by xkuehn · 2011-07-01 03:58 · Score: 0

I don't think your average CEO cares about that.
As long as the six-month bottom line makes it look like the next guy's screw-up, they'd be perfectly happy to run the company into the ground.
Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by Nidi62 · 2011-07-01 03:59 · Score: 1

This is business we're talking about. Everyone knows the only thing that's important is how your company appears to the public.

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The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by bennomatic · 2011-07-01 04:01 · Score: 0, Troll

Or you'd be gaining a passive-aggressive loser who doesn't know how to deal with problems head-on. Maybe it's this kind of mentality which has kept RIM from evolving as fast as they should.

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Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by jomama717 · 2011-07-01 04:07 · Score: 3, Interesting

Perhaps "job ending" is more appropriate.

Keep in mind that the judgment of correctness is going to be made by the very people being called out. Don't get me wrong, I think this guy is right on - people like him that have the stones to tell it like it is, damn the consequences, are far too rare in my opinion. This is true in business and politics.

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Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by del_diablo · 2011-07-01 04:27 · Score: 1

That would be wrong. The only important issue is how much you as a shareholder or managment earn.
Company going towards the bottom of the deep sea? Lets do something silly to fix this ship, ignoring the given list of issues.......
Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 04:47 · Score: 1

So, what you are saying is: no more RIM job for this employee?
Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by Hal_Porter · 2011-07-01 04:53 · Score: 1

Dunno where you worked but most of the places I worked would fire this guy for "reducing user confidence in the brand" or some such. They'd probably lose any money in the salary/pension pipeline too.
If they sued the company's lawyers would say that they've owed the company millions - i.e. they were solely to blame for any subsequent share price decline.

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Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by TheSpoom · 2011-07-01 05:18 · Score: 1

Actually, if I ran a competing tech company and RIM fired this guy, I'd be calling him up as soon as I heard about it.
I assume a company like RIM is smart enough to put non-competes in their employment contracts. Then again, I did just read that letter...

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Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 05:35 · Score: 0

Career ending? Hardly. Where I work, this kind of feedback is usually appreciated.
I'm your boss, Mr Anonymous Coward,. and I want you to know I value your feedback so much I've asked HR to safekeep a collection of all your memos for me.
Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by mswhippingboy · 2011-07-01 05:40 · Score: 1

Where the hell do you work that they would appreciate getting blasted in the media, S&M Inc?
First, the guy that sent the letter requested anonymity for obvious reasons as noted by the GP.
Second, most decent companies do appreciate feedback, but they prefer employees use appropriate internal channels, not blast the company to the world, thereby negatively impacting the perception of the company and, more importantly, the bottom line.

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Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by mswhippingboy · 2011-07-01 05:45 · Score: 1

Just don't let him anywhere near a device that would allow him to send any correspondence out lest you be his next victim if he didn't happen to agree with your strategy.

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Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by jomama717 · 2011-07-01 06:24 · Score: 1

Outstanding. :)

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while [ 1 ]; do echo -n -e "\xe2\x95\xb$((($RANDOM&1)+1))"; done
Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 06:57 · Score: 0

Spoken like a true RIMjobber. I never heard the phrase "career ending move" until I worked for RIM, a company obsessed with itself and full of the most back-stabby awful people I have ever had the misfortune to work for.
Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by roman_mir · 2011-07-01 07:33 · Score: 2

Many winters ago I was in a similar position, had to tell my bosses what I thought was wrong and the result was of-course that my contract was prematurely terminated within days from the moment I opened my mouth. Would I have done the same thing over if I could go back in time?
absolutely.

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You can't handle the truth.
Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by BitZtream · 2011-07-01 08:03 · Score: 1

You'd also gain an employee who clearly won't keep their mouth shut. While you may agree that he's right in this situation, you'd be stupid to think you'd feel the same way if he called you out. You'd be wise to consider that he'd probably be very happy to do the same thing to you. Do you really want to be in the same position as RIM? Do you really think you're immune to having a situation created that he wouldn't feel the same about?
The guy may be right, but I certainly wouldn't hire him. The company is already in a shitty spot, showing the public that the employees have no confidence as well is just bad form. Its unprofessional. He's more or less throwing a temper tantrum. "You aren't doing what I want, so I'm going to tell the world ... anonymously cause I don't really have the balls to say it", says the cowardly RIM employee.
Just because he happened to be right, doesn't mean what he did was a good thing in any way. Pointing out the obvious doesn't make you a hero.

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Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by BitZtream · 2011-07-01 08:11 · Score: 1

That would be wrong in many cases. Your corporate charter defines the goals of the company, which may not be how much you as a shareholder or management earn. RIM's goals probably include making money, but its certainly not a requirement for public companies to focus on shareholder profit.
As a general rule however, public perception is one of the biggest determining factors in profit. If you are perceived as worthless, no one will buy your product for any reason, which there are numerous companies you can use as examples for this one. If you are perceived as cool, trendy OR required for a happy day on the planet ... such as say Apple and Oil companies are perceived by most people, then you can sale your wares regardless of what you do to the customer or how absolutely worthless your product is ... which from a practical perspective, can lead to more earnings. Just look at people who bought into BitCoin ... perception is EVERYTHING. Reality is irrelevant. Logic does not apply here, only emotion and how you can use the customers emotion to your advantage.

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Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by tripleevenfall · 2011-07-01 08:21 · Score: 1

They *might* appreciate this feedback being brought up through internal channels.
No company appreciates a high ranking employee embarrassing them in the media.
Grounds for termination, IMO
Re:Latest CEM Hall of Fame Entrant by MichaelSmith · 2011-07-01 11:06 · Score: 1

..when posting anonymously.

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Balls by molnarcs · 2011-07-01 03:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

That guy certainly had balls. He's basically asking the CEOs of the company to resign, along with half the management. And if half of what he writes is true (and based on other employee reaction, it seems to be), they should go! I found the links in the open later very interesting as well. I have no love for Apple, their vision of the future of computing quite frankly scares me - I prefer to decide myself what is or isn't appropriate for my consumption (censoring Ulysses ffs?!). That said, there are a lot to be admired about Apple - their marketing strategies, their organization and management techniques, etc. I never saw the linked keynote, and I found it quite interesting. The second link to the video about leadership/marketing was equally interesting.

It's such a pity that RIM's response is basically "fuck off!" - way to bury their heads in the sand.

Re:Balls by Maximum+Prophet · 2011-07-01 03:51 · Score: 3, Interesting

It's entirely possible that the CEO and his cronies are making more money at RIM than they could anywhere else, at any time, even if they drive the company into the ground.

If that's the case, they are going to hold on for dear life with both hands, the company and stockholders be damned.

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Re:Balls by Infiniti2000 · 2011-07-01 04:11 · Score: 2

Having balls would mean that he put his name out there. Fighting anonymously is not showing bravery.
Re:Balls by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 04:12 · Score: 0

assuming all is legit. bgr is not a very reliable/trustworthy source. i came across this which sums it up: http://marcparadise.com/a-word-on-the-open-letter-at-bgr-com/. hes a bb dev so I guess take it with a grain of salt - but raises a good point.
Re:Balls by Blakey+Rat · 2011-07-01 04:14 · Score: 2

That's untrue. He specifically calls out one product manager, who headed a disastrous release and yet wasn't removed from his position. And even then, he's not saying "this man should be fired," he's using it as an example to demonstrate that the company has no accountability.
He *does* say that perhaps the dual CEOs should step down in favor of a different, single CEO and take positions in the company more in-line with their strengths. I agree with this; the dual-CEO arrangement is just weird, and I think the cause of many of RIM's problems.
The most interesting thing to me is how the rise of RIM's overseas sales is cloaking their weakness in the North America market. Every time there's a criticism of RIM, they do the same thing they've done here: respond with a laundry list of their strong financials. That response completely misses the point.

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Comment of the year
Re:Balls by VGPowerlord · 2011-07-01 04:17 · Score: 1

If that's the case, they are going to hold on for dear life with both hands, the company and stockholders be damned.
The larger stockholders can band together to fire the CEO.

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Re:Balls by maeka · 2011-07-01 04:23 · Score: 1

Having balls would mean that he put his name out there. Fighting anonymously is not showing bravery.
What would be gained by putting his name out there?
Nothing.
Re:Balls by wideBlueSkies · 2011-07-01 04:42 · Score: 1

Just because he fights for what is right, it doesn't necessarily mean that he wants to put his future at risk. Probably has a family to worry about. So he CAN care about the issues at RIM, speak out about it, and still have a way to protect his current interests.
And as someone else said, putting his name out there would not affect the situation at hand one way or the other.

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Huh?
Re:Balls by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 04:53 · Score: 0

This guy did what Jerry Maguire did. His days are numbered even if the initial response is positive.
Re:Balls by ThatsMyNick · 2011-07-01 04:58 · Score: 2

A comment from RIM employee on the same link...

FWIW, I’m a former RIM employee and I believe the letters were written by RIM employees. BGR is the site that most RIM employees rely on for news about RIM. I know it sounds ridiculous, but the company is pretty secretive internally, and BGR usually has the scoop before things are announced internally. BGR largely got its start with news on BlackBerry devices, and it has a special place in the heart of most RIM employees. It makes sense to me that of all the news/blog sites out there, BGR would be the one chosen to air these letters.
Re:Balls by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 05:02 · Score: 0

Maybe you should put your name out there.
Cry some more you pathetic feeb.
Michael Kristoppit
Re:Balls by rtfa-troll · 2011-07-01 05:02 · Score: 1

The most interesting thing to me is how the rise of RIM's overseas sales is cloaking their weakness in the North America market. Every time there's a criticism of RIM, they do the same thing they've done here: respond with a laundry list of their strong financials. That response completely misses the point.
I think you are totally right, RIM looks like Nokia two years ago or Ericsson around 1999. There's an entire new platform type which has been developed. Only Apple has it and only Google understands what it is and is ready to compete with it. Making a great looking new user interface like Microsoft's and a new app store is still going to leave you five years behind. RIM needs to get their key features ported onto Android and make a telephone based on that or they will die. The only other chance would be to find a big group of other companies with serious cash to establish a proper open standard. Maybe take MeeGo and get Oracle to build an Android source compatible JVM system on top of that. Probably Oracle and Intel combined have enough patents to defend such a platform.

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Re:Balls by s73v3r · 2011-07-01 05:03 · Score: 1

Well, in an ideal world, he would be consulted for what he feels are the problems, and their potential solutions. Or, since he complained, he would be put in charge of fixing them.
Re:Balls by Hal_Porter · 2011-07-01 05:05 · Score: 2

It's entirely possible that the CEO and his cronies are making more money at RIM than they could anywhere else, at any time, even if they drive the company into the ground.
Pretty much really.
Most CEO's have share options and a very generous golden parachute. So their incentive is to convince people everything is OK for long enough for the shares to vest and then bail out.
I think most medium sized companies follow a ballistic path in terms of value. They start off small and very efficient and grow very quickly. Then there is a plateau when they are highly inefficient but still have a large enough income to be viable. Eventually there is a decline as old sources of income dry up and the company is too sclerotic to find new ones. During the plateau phase everyone keeps their heads down and says positive things and hopes the decline will come after they've moved on.
Except for dudes like this that don't. But they just get fired. Of course if you really want to work for a dynamic company then you need to start your own. Mind you you're unlikely to get as good a salary as you'd get at RIM.

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Re:Balls by theshowmecanuck · 2011-07-01 05:16 · Score: 2

The RIM CEOs have more money than they could possibly need in one life... by orders of magnitude; as long as they're not complete idiots. And considering they started the secure handset market (android and iphone/ipad still aren't secure) and the messaging handset in general, they are NOT idiots. Lazaridis started RIM (with a couple of other guys) as a tech startup in Waterloo, ON. Canada where he previously attended The University of Waterloo, and eventually served as chancellor (it has one of the top engineering faculties in Canada). Balsillie is the business school grad.
The only reason they are still in it (in my opinion), like most CEOs, is for the feelings of power and control. Most CEOs are narcissists and often sociopaths. Even if they don't start that way, the power eventually goes to their heads and they end up that way. Take Balsillie and his quest to bully the NHL for a franchise for example. "I have a lot of money and I deserve a team." No need to look further.
I do believe RIM needs fresh thinking at the top. They are beginning to "Novell". i.e. The company starts thinking and acting like, "we are the big boys and we don't have to work as hard to make things easy and innovative for our customers." Meanwhile the competitors see the holes in RIM's thinking and take advantage of new and fresh trends in technology to beat down RIM's market share. Kind of like winning the last war... the winners think they can win the next war with the technology and tactics that they used for the last one (perhaps the biggest exception to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" axiom). The losers know they need to think of a better way to do things. That was why Germany kicked the crap out of the allies at the beginning of WWII after losing WWI. Good thing they were run by madmen who believed "Pyrrhic victories/Cadmean victories were real victories... and for the North American supply lines where factories were out of harm's way. Anyway you get my point: fresh thinking is probably a good thing, and from a distance looks like a good idea to implement at RIM.
To Lazaridis's credit, he has stayed in Waterloo where he went to university and started RIM (he even goes for lunch some times at local restaurants... and not the steakhouse variety... although I am sure he frequents those too :). More than half of RIM's employees are located there, and up till lately they had hired a few thousand more to work in Waterloo in the last two or three years (yes they have some offshore employees but they are a bit of an anomaly considering the number of jobs percentage-wise which they created in North America... mostly in Waterloo where it was started... as opposed to in Asia). Lazaridis founded one of the top theoretical physics institutes in the world in Waterloo with his own money to the tune of $400M to $500M (The Perimeter Institute), and which hosted Steven Hawking for a 6 month stint there last year. They have done a lot for Waterloo, forming the kernel of a high tech industry there (OpenText is another of many companies that is headquartered in Waterloo which started as a tech startup).
Bottom line is that money is not the issue. Besides, when have you ever seen a CEO not be able to drive a company into the ground and not get hired to do the same thing elsewhere. Big money CEOs belong to a well established "old boys club" where ability means nothing... only who you know counts.
No I don't work for RIM, nor have I ever worked for RIM. I don't like rim jobs ... yuck yuck yuck... I'm here all week, try the veal. (But seriously, I am in no way affiliated with RIM, nor do I own a Crackberry.)

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Re:Balls by bill_mcgonigle · 2011-07-01 05:49 · Score: 2

respond with a laundry list of their strong financials. That response completely misses the point.
Short term, this open letter is to the shareholders and their board (nobody else can fire the CEO(s)), which care usually only about current earnings.
That said, this guy is worried about long-term performance which the shareholders ought to care about, but the stock market isn't structured to care. The bond market, more so.

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Re:Balls by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 05:49 · Score: 0

Wait a sec. You say you have no love for Apple, and then you say all of these glowing things about the company. Which one is it, love or no love? That's called talking out of both sides of one's mouth.
Re:Balls by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 06:00 · Score: 0

In an ideal world, this letter never would have been needed or conceived.
Re:Balls by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 06:05 · Score: 0

In the real world he would be fired (you can always find some pretext) or he would be ostracized at work.
"Or, since he complained, he would be put in charge of fixing them."
Why would you put someone in charge just because they pointed out a problem? Out of spite? That is like a person in a wheelchair being put in charge of fighting a fire just because they pointed out the smoke.
Re:Balls by andy1307 · 2011-07-01 06:52 · Score: 1

Can the stockholders fire a CEO? Don't they need to elect a board of directors that would then fire the CEO?
Re:Balls by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 07:10 · Score: 0

And if half of what he writes is true (and based on other employee reaction, it seems to be)
From a quick check of the reviews of RIM at glassdoor.com, there definitely seems to be a general agreement with respect to management.
Re:Balls by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 07:24 · Score: 0

Maybe he needs to be kicked out himself? Apple Inc. had to get rid of an employee whose refusal to live in the real world threatened the company's future and John Sculley bit the bullet got rid of Jobs and saved the company.
Re:Balls by s73v3r · 2011-07-01 08:28 · Score: 1

Why would you put someone in charge just because they pointed out a problem? Out of spite? That is like a person in a wheelchair being put in charge of fighting a fire just because they pointed out the smoke.
Not quite spite, but close. On some of the projects I've been involved with, if you complain about something, that means you just volunteered to fix it.
Re:Balls by BitZtream · 2011-07-01 08:34 · Score: 1

RIM needs to get their key features ported onto Android and make a telephone based on that or they will die.
That would be a dumb idea.
Unless something major changes, Android is on a race to the bottom. Manufactures really SHOULDN'T be screwing with Android, so its consistent to users, so they can't compete based on OS. That means they have to compete based on hardware. In every situation in history like this, the race is a race to the cheapest, most easily mass produced with the largest possible margins. Since there are a large number of companies competing, the margins are hardly worth bothering with, making it impossible to really make your device stand out among the others.
If they DO mess with the consistency, well then the problems you introduce by not being standard makes the fact that your android compatible practically worthless.
So basically, Android doesn't offer RIM anything better than they already have, a second rate option where the best they can hope for is to not go out of business quickly, so they can milk it for a few years to selling to the highest bidder, for pennies on the dollar.
Now, if you're belief is that RIM doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell, then sure, throw android on all their devices and milk it out as long as you can. I'd say you'd probably be right, RIM clearly doesn't get it. They never really did, they just happen to be the option that sucked less than the non-existent option before them. Lets face it, RIM devices have always sucked ass, its just that they were slightly more usable than Windows Mobile devices. When the iPhone came out and set a reasonable standard for 'smart phones', RIM suddenly doesn't even really look like a 'dumb phone' anymore, its more like your inbred daughter of your third cousin who married her grandpa. They had a usable (not GOOD, just usable) email client on a phone while everyone else was dicking around being morons about it. No web browser, no HTML email, hardly presentable text even, but you could actually read it, and they came quickly, so it was good. Once you started seeing a web browser that didn't look like ass and pretty graphics on a phone that could be had for less than $500 (I'm ignoring other ridiculously over priced smart phones before the iPhone, which were $500-600 WITH a contract.), you know, an acceptable device for todays world, then the realization came out that RIM devices are actually really shitty. So they made new models ... and in those new models, in there effort to look like Apple, they threw out the only things people actually liked about them and also utterly failed to understand why Apple devices are liked.
They thought that Monkey See, Monkey Do would work ... except they were to stupid to realize they we watching the monkey ... while everyone else was impressed with what the bikini model standing next to the monkey was doing.
If you want to be anything other than a commodity hardware manufacture, you don't want to run Android on your devices.

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Re:Balls by rtfa-troll · 2011-07-01 10:16 · Score: 1

That would be a dumb idea.
Unless something major changes, Android is on a race to the bottom.
In a sense you are right. However, I see Android as something equivalent to Windows 3.11. It's not quite at the level of IOS, but it's as close as is needed. Almost anything RIM (or for that matter anyone else) does at this point is doomed to fail; However, if they did go with Android a) It's true that Windows PCs are more or less commodity, but companies like Panasonic still manage to sell premium versions like the Toughbooks. b) The inevitable commoditisation of Android hardware is going to mean that nothing else can come close to competing on cost.

Manufactures really SHOULDN'T be screwing with Android, so its consistent to users, so they can't compete based on OS. .
RIM needs to get into two different parts of the market. High end consumer Android phones and business. The consumer division should be there mostly to keep up the image and give a reference for what a non messed up RIM device looks like; their profit pressure should be lower. The business division is there as the primary profit driver; they should be putting in things which allow corporate IT people to mess with the function of the RIM phones. They still shouldn't mess with the user interface of course, but they should be putting encryption, remote locking erasing and disabling, full backup and a bunch of other "corporate" features in place.

That means they have to compete based on hardware. In every situation in history like this, the race is a race to the cheapest, most easily mass produced with the largest possible margins.
Again think back to the PC wars. It's true that the more expensive manufacturers lost out to the cheaper for the most part. However, that took a long time coming and plenty of profit made. In the meantime, those like Atari, Acorn, Amstrad, Commodore, IBM, MSX, Sinclair etc. who refused to follow the trend simply got crushed. The reason is simple. The biggest standard gets the most sales; with the most sales there are the most competing component producers and they produce the most components; that leads to the cheapest components. The cheapest components lead to the best margins with the lowest price and that leads in turn to the most sales.

[...] Now, if you're belief is that RIM doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell, then sure, throw android on all their devices and milk it out as long as you can. I'd say you'd probably be right, RIM clearly doesn't get it. They never really did, they just happen to be the option that sucked less than the non-existent option before them. Lets face it, RIM devices have always sucked ass, its just that they were slightly more usable than Windows Mobile devices. When the iPhone came out and set a reasonable standard for 'smart phones', RIM suddenly doesn't even really look like a 'dumb phone' anymore, its more like your inbred daughter of your third cousin who married her grandpa. They had a usable (not GOOD, just usable) email client on a phone while everyone else was dicking around being morons about it. No web browser, no HTML email, hardly presentable text even, but you could actually read it, and they came quickly, so it was good. Once you started seeing a web browser that didn't look like ass and pretty graphics on a phone that could be had for less than $500 (I'm ignoring other ridiculously over priced smart phones before the iPhone, which were $500-600 WITH a contract.), you know, an acceptable device for todays world, then the realization came out that RIM devices are actually really shitty. So they made new models ... and in those new models, in there effort to look like Apple, they threw out the only things people actually liked about them and also utterly failed to understand why Apple devices are liked.
They thought that Monkey See, Monkey Do would work

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=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
Re:Balls by hab136 · 2011-07-04 20:12 · Score: 1

Even better, you're given the responsibility to fix it, but not the authority. So in a few months when it isn't fixed, it's your fault.
Re:Balls by Infiniti2000 · 2011-07-05 02:02 · Score: 1

Just because he fights for what is right, it doesn't necessarily mean that he wants to put his future at risk.
That's fine and I agree that it wouldn't likely affect the situation (this depends, however, as a lot of people do not respond at all to anonymous messages--even here we call them cowards don't we?). However, my reply was strictly regarding the balls comment. Posting anonymously does not indicate courage. It's still good to make the comment, but that certainly doesn't mean the author has any balls. That said, molnarcs probably intended that to be more attributable to the writing style than to the author.

Gone in 10 years. by Skarecrow77 · 2011-07-01 03:45 · Score: 3, Interesting

RIM is the AOL of the 20teens. The once juggernaut who will be a footnote a lot sooner than they might have thought.

I've got any number of users who are asking me how well our company integrates business features with iPhones and Android phones, and I keep telling them "well, decently, but not as good as with blackberry", and the thing is... none of them care. As contracts expire, phones die, or just as they get sick of their BBs, they're all going to iOS and android anyway cause the rest of the RIM experience is crap, and I don't blame them. I've got two phones on my waist, a droid and a curve, and I use the curve for email and phone calls. that's it. It's just inferior to the droid at, well, everything else.

BB executives don't have to "right the ship" at this point, they need to build a whole new boat, and instantly. Somehow, I don't see it.

Re:Gone in 10 years. by jellomizer · 2011-07-01 03:55 · Score: 1

RIM has a chance to come back though...
Unlike AOL who based their technology a well understood dying tech (Dial Up), even back in the early 90's most educated people knew that Dial Up networks will soon be leaving for broadband, then with the growth of the Web Browsers and normal Internet access their specialized services will become more and more useless. As well it was known for a lot of service problems.
RIM is in the current field Mobile tech, It's product Quality is good, I don't hear too many people saying Black Berries Suck a lot of people actually like them a lot they just want them to do the new cool things that iPhones and Androids do, and if they can get app development and also perhaps target more to average Joe vs. Mr. Exec. they can do it.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by bennomatic · 2011-07-01 04:16 · Score: 1

Well, as much as AOL sucks, it's still around and generating millions of dollars of revenue every day. Calling them--or RIM--a footnote is maybe a bit sensational.

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Re:Gone in 10 years. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 04:16 · Score: 0

RIM is the AOL of the 20teens. The once juggernaut who will be a footnote a lot sooner than they might have thought.
I worked for AOL for a while in the '90s. The development team was fantastic and the work environment was very casual and intimate - hell they even stocked the refrigerators with wine and beer. The problem with AOL, much like RIM, came from the top. Management had the idea that what has been, will always be. By the time I started working there, it was obvious to everyone from middle management on down that it was the Internet that was important, and that the internet access experience needs to be as painless as possible, but to distinguish AOL you really needed to focus on what everyone wanted from the Internet. Had they not been stuck on the "online service" mentality that came from Quantum Link they could have implemented Facebook, Amazon, and iTunes all in one, via a broadband connection, and give subscribers a compelling reason to stay. It was their unwillingness to listen which caused their long, painful and ongoing demise. Heck even at the time I didn't ever use my "free" AOL account for anything not directly work-related; I used standard PPP through a standard ISP to get online.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by Skarecrow77 · 2011-07-01 04:17 · Score: 2

They could, but they aren't.
Check the story on the front page from a couple days ago where mobile developer after mobile developer say "when we have to decide where to cut out a product to focus on the quality of our others, it's always the BB version of an app".
While BBs are struggling to reach the likes of the android and iOS app markets, android and iOS app writers are coming on strong for business. My marketing department recently purchased an ipad2 for business use, which I internally scoffed at until I saw the width, breadth, and quality of apps targeted at not only our business, but at our respective markets. It was good stuff too!. If stuff this good is available already for something I previously considered a toy, it's only going to get better as time goes on.
TL;DR: iOS and Android app markets are coming on STRONG at RIM's traditional strengths, while RIM apps struggle to do with iOS and Android are good at. Why stick with RIM and wait for it to get all the fancy neato apps other phones have, if those phones already have those apps AND are nearly as good as BBs at other stuff.
BTW, check out the keyboard on the Motorala Droid Pro. It's probably my favorite mobile keyboard out there.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by Skarecrow77 · 2011-07-01 04:25 · Score: 1

well perhaps "gone" is not the right word. perhaps "ignored, maligned, disregarded, and clinging to a tiny toehold in the market" would be more accurate. Whatever AOL is today (I admit I didn't even google/wikipedia it before writing the OP), you don't hear it in the same breath with google, facebook, twitter, apple, microsoft, etc as a pillar of the modern online technological world. This is the same company which (if memory serves) leveraged themselves to buy freakin Time Warner in the 90s. to millions upon millions, AOL WAS the online world. That's a long hard way to fall.
All I'm saying is that in 10 years, probably better than 9 out of 10 businessmen you run in to, when you say "What can you tell me about RIM", they're going to say "Didn't they make those phones with the roller balls that I used back in 2007? I wonder what happened to them."
Re:Gone in 10 years. by squidguy · 2011-07-01 04:26 · Score: 1

Plus the fact that Steve Case was gay, along with You've Got Mail (TM)...
Re:Gone in 10 years. by Lehk228 · 2011-07-01 04:35 · Score: 1

best keyboard, best email, strong battery life.

androids and iProducts typically need a charge during the day, or at a minimum need to be charged every night, blackberries do not

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Re:Gone in 10 years. by IICV · 2011-07-01 04:45 · Score: 1

It makes me really sad, too, because with Nokia and RIM becoming irrelevant, there's not many other smartphone manufacturers out there who are willing to put a physical keyboard on their phones. There's very few models out there with one these days.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by Skarecrow77 · 2011-07-01 04:55 · Score: 1

Email is decent. I wouldn't say it's better than what my droid can do. If you mean exchange integration, then yes blackberry's built-in enterprise integration is better than something like goodlink for iOS/android. but not by that much anymore...
Maybe your BB is better than mine, but mine will go for about a day and a half on a full charge (it is about 8 months old, so battery should still be fine), while my two year old droid will outlast it by at least 12 hours.
Also, my wife's droid pro keyboard is way better than my BB curve's KB, although my office manager's BB Bold KB may be the equal of the droid pro. All of them are better than my droid original KB (and I've got the "bubble" version, the "flat" version was worse), but all of that is preferable to a touchscreen keyboard like on most android and all iphones... which isn't to say I haven't become pretty dam quick with those too out of necessity.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by s73v3r · 2011-07-01 05:06 · Score: 1

That used to be enough. Nowadays the other products are "good enough" at those things, and the strengths they have far outweigh the capabilities of the BBs.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by Skarecrow77 · 2011-07-01 05:06 · Score: 1

I've mentioned it elsewhere in this thread, but motorala will still do it, and they still make some pretty decent phones. Droid Pro, Droid 3, etc.
Sad thing is, as much as I like physical keyboards, I think on sheer weight of features my next phone will probably be a Droid Bionic because my previous "waiting patiently for it" phone choice of droid 3 just doesn't have the 4g connectivity I want for the future (my city is scheduled to get 4g this summer), nor a couple other nice features of the Bionic. The Keyboard may have to go, sad as it is.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by Lunix+Nutcase · 2011-07-01 05:12 · Score: 1

well perhaps "gone" is not the right word. perhaps "ignored, maligned, disregarded, and clinging to a tiny toehold in the market" would be more accurate.

Amongst nerds, maybe, but I still know plenty of people that use AOL still. Considering they made nearly $2.5 billion in revenue last year they must have some sizable user base left.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by jbolden · 2011-07-01 05:13 · Score: 1

AOL could have very easily moved into specialized services. Huge classes of services existed in the early 90s that don't exist today. Other features like facebook, Myspace, 2ndlife, twitter could have been AOL products. Wikipedia could have been funded out of AOL. For a long time they were funding but not using Mozilla / Firefox. AOL could have been in the 2000s where they were in the late 90s a wrapper around the raw internet offering specialized content.
They didn't have to die just because dialup did. Dialup was just one of their offerings.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by larry+bagina · 2011-07-01 05:31 · Score: 1

RuPaul has a bigger pecker than Kim Kardashian, but that's not a feature I'm looking for when I want a woman to shit on my chest.

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These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by nine-times · 2011-07-01 05:42 · Score: 1

I've got any number of users who are asking me how well our company integrates business features with iPhones and Android phones, and I keep telling them "well, decently, but not as good as with blackberry"
I don't know... I suspect even some of Blackberry's business integration features are a matter of over-hype. These days, I'm seeing way more problems with Blackberries syncing with BES than with Androids/iPhones using ActiveSync. When there are problems, they're much harder to sort out. The whole BES setup has become an additional complex layer of unreliable mess to troubleshoot, and I'd rather not deal with it.
RIM is still putting out products of the style of Windows Mobile (pre-7) and Palm devices. The UI stinks, and the whole device had the feel of "phone with email and web browsing poorly crammed in" rather than "sleek mobile computing device that includes a phone." People make a big deal about the keyboards, but I think it's at least partially an issue about "what you're used to", because I can type faster and more comfortably on my iPhone than my Blackberry. Blackberry keys are too tiny, and I make too many typos.
As far as I can recall, the dominance of Blackberries in business was a result of being the first company to market with good support for Exchange servers that provided push email, address books, calendars, and an option to remote-wipe the device. Those features aren't impressive anymore, and RIM's implementation isn't even all that impressive..
Re:Gone in 10 years. by JackAxe · 2011-07-01 05:43 · Score: 1

So your BlackBerry phone is better at being a phone than your Droid, go figure. Who knew these things made phone calls, I thought all they did was play apps.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by wolrahnaes · 2011-07-01 06:08 · Score: 2

On the battery side of things, you're wrong.
Check out the charts here: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4471/htc-sensation-4g-review-a-sensational-smartphone/10
The best Blackberry, the Bold 9780, is roughly equal to the iPhone 4 in all tests, trading off for the top spot in the web browsing tests. In the 3G talk time test both the iPhone and the Blackberry are firmly beaten by a number of Android devices.
I'll also point out that the Blackberry has a small 2.4" screen compared to the 3.5-4.3" screens of the majority of the competition and has a slow 624 MHz processor, compared to ~750 MHz in the iPhone and 800-1200MHz on the Androids. On paper it should have no problem beating the others simply from having less display to illuminate and a less demanding processor.
Standby time was not tested so it may win there, but honestly is it really that much of a problem to plug a phone in when you go to bed? I have a HTC Evo, one of the most power-hungry phones on the market, and that's all I have to do. Same as I've done out of habit with every phone I've owned in the past, smart or not.
Keyboard you're probably right, though personally I have never found a smartphone keyboard I liked. Likewise having not used Blackberry e-mail in years I'll refrain from judgement, though I can't say I have any complaints about either iOS or Android in that regard.

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Re:Gone in 10 years. by Skarecrow77 · 2011-07-01 06:09 · Score: 1

No, I just don't want the people I support to have my personal number. Although as a coworker pointed out, I have both phones on opposite hips, does it really matter which hip rings when somebody calls? I suppose it doesn't, but it sure feels like it should.
For the record, I probably make equal numbers of calls on both phones. I have no preference for call quality/clarity. They're about the same.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by jackbird · 2011-07-01 06:26 · Score: 1

What percentage of those people are AOL users because they're actively being scammed by the company? As in, they have broadband in the home but pay AOL for their client software in order to open it, minimize it, and run IE? Or who are too afraid to switch and lose their @aol.com email address, not realizing that you can use AOL's webmail for free without subscribing?

How many new users are they getting?
Re:Gone in 10 years. by Just+Some+Guy · 2011-07-01 07:08 · Score: 1

What percentage of those people are AOL users because they're actively being scammed by the company?
60%.

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Re:Gone in 10 years. by schnell · 2011-07-01 07:19 · Score: 1

The best Blackberry, the Bold 9780, is roughly equal to the iPhone 4 in all tests
True, but I think there is a perception that the BlackBerry's battery is better because there is a different usage profile. My work phone is a BlackBerry and my personal mobile is an iPhone. What do I do with the BlackBerry? Make calls and read e-mails. What do I do with the iPhone? Lots of web browsing and app usage, some of which are absolute battery killers. I also tend to leave WiFi active on my iPhone but turned off on my BB, since unlike the iPhone I don't do anything on the BlackBerry that needs the faster bandwidth.
The result is that I end up having to charge my iPhone after just a few hours of playing Monkey Island even if my BB is still going strong after many hours of e-mail and some phone calls. So I wouldn't be surprised if the anecdotal BB battery life review of a typical user is much better than the specs would suggest.

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Re:Gone in 10 years. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 07:37 · Score: 0

I've got two phones on my waist
I hope you've had all the kids you wanted.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by Machtyn · 2011-07-01 08:16 · Score: 1

I agree. I think BB may be going the way of Palm. Palm had a great product and I loved being able to 1-stroke write my letters. They then split their software and hardware divisions and lost Grafitti. Grafitti 2 was atrocious (why they thought 2-stroke writing is easier than 1-stroke...)

In any case, I see a similar thing happening with BB. They are focusing on hardware and forgetting to upgrade/update the software to be more developer friendly. But even on the hardware side, there is very little exciting about it. The camera is 2MP, not 3 or 4 like Android or iPhone phones. There is not as much internal memory. At least you can replace the battery and swap micro-SD cards.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by BitZtream · 2011-07-01 08:39 · Score: 1

best keyboard
Everyone agrees on this, this is the one thing they had.

best email
If we're comparing it to what was on phones in 1995, then sure, but BB's email is all around shitty in pretty much every way. It only happened to be considerably less shitty than affordable device implementations at the time. Porting PINE to a RIM device would be an upgrade for their mail client in every single possible way, assuming PINE supports IMAP IDLE, without the need for a bunch of RIM middleware because they couldnt' be bothered to develop software with a clue.

strong battery life
Meh, it was fine, but it wasn't impressive considering the device doesn't really do anything particularly impressive.

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Re:Gone in 10 years. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 08:43 · Score: 0

The problem for RIM is that the smartphone came so far so fast because of Steve Jobs. Hadn't it been for the iPhone RIM would still be the leader of smartphones.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by BitZtream · 2011-07-01 08:46 · Score: 1

Considering they made nearly $2.5 billion in revenue last year they must have some sizable user base left.
Revenue means nothing. You want high revenue for your business?
1. Setup a kiosk/vending machine in a populated area.
2. Sell a $20 bill, for $15.
3. Turn the machine on.
4. The revenue is only limited by how fast you can have the machine work and how quickly you can reload it with $20 bills.
Of course, for every transaction you loss money, and so more revenue means you're actually further in debt, but if you decide to start a business let me know, I'd love to drive your revenue numbers up and I can give you some great ways to do it. Sure, its going to cost you some money, but hey, you gotta spend money to make it right? Now whats your bank account numbers?
Revenue means absolutely nothing to anyone other that morons.

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Re:Gone in 10 years. by sciencewhiz · 2011-07-01 10:57 · Score: 1

How about 900 million profit?
Re:Gone in 10 years. by wolrahnaes · 2011-07-03 04:27 · Score: 1

I think you're on to something with this. Blackberries seem to mostly be used as dumbphones with good PIM and e-mail functionality rather than the typical modern smartphone which gets used as a gaming/browsing/e-mail device that can probably make phone calls.
Just a note, a lot of Android devices get better battery life with WiFi turned on as long as you're in an area with an AP you can use, as the WiFi radio uses less power than the cellular radio for background internet tasks like syncing. I don't know whether Blackberries benefit from this since I know they usually require special services from the cellular carrier to get full functionality (I assume something to do with BES, which IMO is a pointless extra step that needs to go away), but it might be worth looking in to.

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I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
Re:Gone in 10 years. by hab136 · 2011-07-04 20:19 · Score: 1

Use Google Voice (or some other VoIP system) for your "work" phone, and then you only have to carry one device.

Don't try to compete with iPhone and Android by mcvos · 2011-07-01 03:47 · Score: 1

It's useless for Blackberry to try to compete with iPhone and Android. They'll lose. Instead, they have their own sizable and very profitable niche in the market: business. Blackberries aren't made for their users, but for their users' employers. The tight central control, ability to lock everything down, and link to MS Exchange are the main selling points. And their (relatively) good keyboards, obviously.

Re:Don't try to compete with iPhone and Android by morcego · 2011-07-01 03:53 · Score: 1

I agree. On the other hand, they have to be careful about Microsoft. They are a very attractive target, and the obvious market for MS to take over first, before going for iPhone's and Android's.

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morcego
Re:Don't try to compete with iPhone and Android by chemicaldave · 2011-07-01 03:56 · Score: 1

Apparently they're ok with not competing.

In fact, while growth has slowed in the US, RIM still shipped 13.2 million BlackBerry smartphones last quarter (which is about 100 smartphones per minute, 24 hours per day) and RIM is more committed than ever to serving its loyal customers and partners around the world.
13.2 million is a drop in the bucket compared to Apple and Android.
Re:Don't try to compete with iPhone and Android by Tolleman · 2011-07-01 04:21 · Score: 1

Well that, and Nokias E-series is also buisiness oriented. So Nokia and Microsoft are RIMs real enemies in this the phone market.
The upcoming E6 from Nokia looks rather nice. I've always liked the professional look of their E phones, like the E71 and E72. Goes well with a suite.
Re:Don't try to compete with iPhone and Android by RyuuzakiTetsuya · 2011-07-01 04:50 · Score: 1

They don't have to go chasing after a niche.
They have to go make their products not suck.
Business and government are fleeing blackberry for Android and iOS because they don't suck(if you're a fanboy of either, use a modern blackberry, use the competing device, then go back to your flavor of choice; you will never want to argue about phone OSes ever again).

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Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Re:Don't try to compete with iPhone and Android by grimmjeeper · 2011-07-01 05:02 · Score: 1

On the contrary, it's VITAL they compete with Android and Apple. Why? Because Android, and to a lesser extent Apple are eating into the niche that the BB currently has. Inside of a year you'll start seeing businesses abandoning RIM en masse. As Android gets better at doing what businesses want out of them there will be less and less reason to stick with a dying platform.
When your competitor moves into your niche and has other killer apps that you don't have, you're not going to last long. RIM needs to aggressively pursue new and expanding markets or they are going to whither on the vine. Not competing with Android and Apple is what's killing them.
Re:Don't try to compete with iPhone and Android by MachineShedFred · 2011-07-01 05:04 · Score: 2

And when Google, Microsoft, and Apple catch up to that feature set RIM is totally screwed. You've got a great short-term plan, but when you can lock down and control an iPhone to the same degree as a BlackBerry; but have way more usability and features available without the substantial cost of BES because you're using an ActiveSync reverse proxy, RIM is done.

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Re:Don't try to compete with iPhone and Android by ebunga · 2011-07-01 05:21 · Score: 1

Everyone is already abandoning the blackberry platform. Why spend over $1000 per user per year for the phones and BES when you can achieve just as much control using other technologies on other platforms with less effort and half the cost?
Re:Don't try to compete with iPhone and Android by quacking+duck · 2011-07-01 07:37 · Score: 1

The link to our hosted MS Exchange was a pain in the butt for a small business (10 people) to set up, not to mention it costs extra per month over an iPhone with ActiveSync. Seven Blackberries set up during a 2-year period, each time it took several hours to a day to get working. I don't recall details since I didn't set them up.
It was for only three employees too--the boss went through three in a single year (only once was it his fault, he said right up front it got wet). They all kept breaking, and of course incurring a full replacement fee each time. The boss in particular finally got fed up and got an iPhone. He hasn't babied it any more than his BBs, yet it's lasted almost 2 years without incident.
We're Canadian and tried supporting RIM, but they sure aren't making it easy--either with their BB, or their recent Playbook (requiring a tethered BB to enable the mail, calendar and contacts apps was a dealbreaker).
Re:Don't try to compete with iPhone and Android by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-02 08:55 · Score: 0

Why do you spend $1000? We spend slightly less that $680/yr per BB, and that's just because company policy doesn't allow us to go to the cheaper carrier that would bring it down to about $560. Considering how often the iphones seem to need replacing, they're far more expensive.

Unfortunately it's true by gyaku_zuki · 2011-07-01 03:48 · Score: 2

Having recently left RIM (BlackBerry Storm 2) for an Android (Galaxy S 2) I'm 100% happier. The Storm 2 had great potential, but was marred by RIM not innovating with apps and core functionality - it didn't even get an upgrade to BB OS6 despite being only 8 months old. That, I could have lived with, but the worst was they'd been saying all along that it WOULD. Suddenly, nope, it didn't. The advantage of RIM was always in email, and it still does email very well, but not so much better than iPhones and Androids anymore. BBM is equally being made redundant by things like PingChat. Its variety of market apps is poor and ridiculously expensive for mediocre apps. Finally, even when their phone is JUST onto the market, its already so far behind the curve. Processors, displays, memory... they all suck, making the phone a slow, unattractive smartphone for this day and age.

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Gruber summed up this response perfectly by sribe · 2011-07-01 03:50 · Score: 1

"330 words to say nothing"

Re:Gruber summed up this response perfectly by Elbart · 2011-07-01 04:51 · Score: 1

And what do YOU think?
Re:Gruber summed up this response perfectly by sribe · 2011-07-01 05:26 · Score: 1

And what do YOU think?
That RIM's co-CEOs are a pair of delusional morons.
Re:Gruber summed up this response perfectly by TheLink · 2011-07-01 08:35 · Score: 1

Or they know they are losing but they prefer to safely keep milking the cow and later BBQ it, than to do something riskier and potentially lose their jobs much faster.

Look how long Nokia took before their recent incident. So there might be plenty of time to live it up before they have to use their golden parachutes.

Of course the open letters don't help this approach...
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RIM is losing in the Enterprise too by fruey · 2011-07-01 03:54 · Score: 4, Interesting

From basic observation I have seen execs moving from BlackBerry to iPhone & Android because the latter platforms are in fact now both capable of syncing reasonably well with Exchange.

BlackBerry is still a powerful platform for corporate email but they're mostly used for reading - rather than writing - email so the data entry & ergonomy for basic email operations isn't *killer* enough. On top of that new >200 DPI screens on Android & iPhone devices make reading much more pleasant. If you read a lot, then having hardware keys to scroll (I love being able to use space to page down on BB) is great though, but the text resolution is shit.

The thing most have missed so far is that the gadget that is invading the boardroom is the iPad. Meetings where everyone has a slide deck on their own tablet make sense, especially when (if indeed it isn't already out there but has escaped my attention) a collaboration tool allows slick collective annotation on iPad.

Many apps on BlackBerry are pretty awful, and my all-time favourite, viigo, was bought by BlackBerry and then almost instantly killed. It relied on a proxy to format RSS properly and serve it to the terminal, and the proxy never works any more. The new RIM News Reader app isn't available in my country. WTF? It was the only app that allowed RSS + Twitter (multiple accounts) + stocks + weather in one easy place.

Note also that the processing power on smartphones make BlackBerry appear exceptionally slow. RIM are going to lose, unless they bring back something a bit more *killer* in the corporate space. They have some interesting niches though, esp. for teen texting where BlackBerry does come into its own. iPhone text messaging is way sexier though, mostly thanks to the higher DPI.

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Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant

Re:RIM is losing in the Enterprise too by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 04:13 · Score: 0

RIM is not going to lose _if_; the atttude in the response shows they are going to lose _period_.
Re:RIM is losing in the Enterprise too by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-07-01 06:47 · Score: 1

If you read a lot, then having hardware keys to scroll (I love being able to use space to page down on BB) is great though
It's not like there aren't Android phones with hardware keyboards (on those with arrows, Fn+up/down normally works as page up / page down - the OS itself is aware of the existence of those keys for list scrolling etc).
Re:RIM is losing in the Enterprise too by GNious · 2011-07-01 07:57 · Score: 1

From basic observation I have seen execs moving from BlackBerry to iPhone & Android because the latter platforms are in fact now both capable of syncing reasonably well with Exchange.
At the place I work (just shy of 2000 heads last I heard), Execs are all on Apple's iPhone since it is "the cool thing to do", and the rest of us are forced to use Blackberries, despite an insane failure-rate and crashes and other problems.
(I'm on my 3rd BB in 2 years, and being told repeatedly by management that there are no problems with BBs ... plenty others with the same experience).
Now, BBs are great for emails - sure, text could be a bit better, but its quite good at emails and MS Messenger and better than anything I've tried in that respect. Physical keyboard is also nice. Sound is horrible, the devices (currently 9000 Bold) are slow and error-prone, and 20% of the time people cannot call me because it has crashed (again - I'm far from alone in this observation), but it does Email pretty darn well.
As for the Exec team's iPhone? No idea, but I actually think some of the emails I've received have gotten even shorter and, ehh, "less well-considered", which makes me think that its not good for emailing.
Re:RIM is losing in the Enterprise too by fruey · 2011-07-04 02:21 · Score: 1

Yep, of course you have keyboards on some Android devices... some of the best at the moment are 100% touch but there are capable keyboarded versions.

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Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant

The only real answer is for RIM to run Android by sl4shd0rk · 2011-07-01 03:55 · Score: 1

Developers are struggling as it is to support multiple platforms (alng with the java stigma invented for the past 10 years) but it's possible to do. If RIM tries to stick to it's abhorrent, single-platform support, horrendous java development environment *nobody* is going to want to touch it. It's just too difficult to implement and support when you're not a mainstream market-share holder anymore.

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Re:The only real answer is for RIM to run Android by thePowerOfGrayskull · 2011-07-01 04:15 · Score: 1

Wait, you're saying the market needs yet MORE me-too android phones? There are already so many that we're due for a natural culling...
Re:The only real answer is for RIM to run Android by sl4shd0rk · 2011-07-01 04:32 · Score: 1

Yes, in a sense. The market is created by the needs (or rather perceived needs) of the consumer. RIM has only a wee bit of the market share right now and In order to remain relevant they will need to compete in an area dominated by two major systems (apple/android). If RIM thinks they are going to come to the table and be a game changer with their current offering, their execs are on more crack than mundie and ballmer.
RIM needs to change and they need to do it fast. What they offer needs to suck less than what's currently out there (Including their own).
The only other option is for them to dump large wads of cash into the pockets of the Kill-Android-Coalition (aka: Microsoft, Oracle, Apple) and hope for the best but they are going to be standing behind Windows phone 7.

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Re:The only real answer is for RIM to run Android by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 05:12 · Score: 0

Apple started out with a "me to" BSD kernel and made it shine.
RIM should do the same.
I don't think they have the balls to do away with the management, wherein the real problem lies. They're a bloated company. They need to fix that.
They make cheap, plastic phones that are low quality and pale in comparison to the product they started with. Go look at their phones in a store. Pick it up. Now go pick up an iphone. One of them feels like a quality product. One of them smacks of "hey I can save $0.05 if we change the plasic compound" . People will pay for quality. Someone needs to tell them that. (hey, you listening RIM?)
QNX.. sigh, QNX. I love QNX. I have a theory, though, that it is a cursed operating system. They're using it to be different.
I don't care what OS they use. Fix your product.
PS. The PlayBook .. sigh.
You know what would be revolutionary? Make a tablet that replaces a 8.5" x 11" piece of paper at 300DPI. I've wanted one of those for 10 years. Screen tech doesn't exist? Take some of those billions.. and FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO IT.
Apple is about to steal that from you, too.

Wrong apps by Animats · 2011-07-01 03:59 · Score: 4, Insightful

RIM's "app store" has as its lead product something for getting sports news. Wrong answer.

They should be focusing on being a really good business tool, and having applications for business users. Some examples:

GetMeThere - a travel application for executives. You want to get somewhere, it figures out how and makes all the arrangements. It knows where you are, it knows your company travel policies, it knows your frequent flyer information, it knows your preferences, it knows about travel delays, and it knows how to talk to all the reservation systems. Including NetJets. The iPhone travel applications have all that data, but are too dumb to put it together.
ExceptionMonitor This ties in with corporate systems to report exceptions. If something was supposed to ship by Thursday, and it didn't, you get an alert. Monitors key ratios for your business while you're out of town, too.
BackgroundCheck Check out a company or an individual. Connects to Dun and Bradstreet, Hoovers, corporate registration information, criminal records, etc.

That's what executives need, not Angry Birds.

Re:Wrong apps by gameweld · 2011-07-01 04:02 · Score: 1

Nice!
Re:Wrong apps by gl4ss · 2011-07-01 04:30 · Score: 1

the execs are a niche market, though - and all these take a lot setting up.

--
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:Wrong apps by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 05:43 · Score: 0

You mean you've actually managed to connect to BlackBerry App World for once and not gotten a 'connection failed' error?
Re:Wrong apps by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 05:56 · Score: 0

That's what executives need, not Angry Birds.
^^^^ I disagree - Angry Birds are *exactly* what execs need.
Re:Wrong apps by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 05:58 · Score: 0

BackgroundCheck would get execs in trouble if they were to use something like it without a PI's license in most of the States of the Union. The other two suggested app ideas strike me as a gem, regardless of which platform that they might be on.
Re:Wrong apps by djdanlib · 2011-07-01 06:02 · Score: 1

Interesting thoughts. The executives where I work (a Fortune 500 company) use their Blackberries for Exchange, OCS and surfing the Web. They have people in cubicles to do the last two things (and sometimes the first), and those concierge services from their really high end credit cards to do the first. So when they get together and whip out their phones for a high tech geek contest, it's always about the apps and features that don't help them do business. You know, getting live sports updates mid-game, reading the WSJ, some random motion activated light saber app, more megapixels in the built in camera, checking the weather, who's got a better web browser or cooler ringtone options, that sort of thing. I see it all the time. I also know that I would never, ever want someone running a background check on me while they were in line at the airport Starbucks. That capability just shouldn't exist.
How about having good call quality, and being easier to integrate into your company's integrated communications infrastructure? That would provide the IT people with a selling point.
Re:Wrong apps by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 08:10 · Score: 0

I agree with your comments, but I think you miss the point. BB is "dying" because its Business functions are now being met by iOS and Android, who also have better hardware and gives them Angry Birds as added value. Added value is key,here. If iOS and Android are beginning to be good Business devices, with the added value of thousands of quality apps - well then why stick to / go back to a BB device?
Re:Wrong apps by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 08:32 · Score: 0

Umm... if you want to cripple your market, sure. People don't want to carry two phones. If they are human (not all, but many business executives fall into this category,) they want Angry Birds as well as Email.
Re:Wrong apps by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 08:38 · Score: 0

Hmmm. Have you actually worked in business or have you just spent half an hour dreaming up some half baked concepts?
Why would anybody want to check criminal records or legal companies from a phone. You have legal and credit departments to do that for you. It really isn't something you need to an app for.
What exactly is a "corporate system"? If you're talking about applications pushing out warnings why wouldn't just use SMS for warnings and an intranet page for reporting? Why would a corporation bother to tie itself into a single phone ecosystem?
Why GetMeThere over a PA? Anyone using NetJet would have a PA to do this shit for them.
I'd imagine that Angry Birds would get far more use from any executive than any of those ideas.
Re:Wrong apps by BitZtream · 2011-07-01 09:00 · Score: 1

The problem is ... every single one of those is better as a web app rather than a native app. They all require a working connection to relay the data off to a central server or download it, so a HTML5 app with a local data cache would be far more intelligent from a vender perspective than a local app.
Since the 'good' apps you point out (and they do sound like good apps) are clearly designed wrong, it puts even less faith in the platform.

--
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Re:Wrong apps by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-04 21:43 · Score: 0

That's what executives need, not Angry Birds.
Yes, but executives are just as dumb and impulsive as everyone else. They need those things, but they'll never buy any device unless it supports Angry Birds.

The response should have been... by bennomatic · 2011-07-01 04:00 · Score: 1

As I tweeted yesterday, RIM's response should have been, 'We were caught with our pants down. The bozos are getting the golden chute. We'll be back, or die trying.'

--
The CB App. What's your 20?

Revolutionary Management Strategy by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 04:00 · Score: 1

Jack Welch's strategy for turning around GE involved sending questionnaires to his employees asking them how to make the company better. Revolutionary, I know. Sounds like a RIM could use a healthy dose of that. -www.awkwardengineer.com

Re:Revolutionary Management Strategy by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 04:32 · Score: 3, Insightful

Jack Welch also had a philosophy of giving 80 percent of the rewards to 20 percent of the employees, and requiring a certain percentage of employees be fired as "underperformers" every single year after year. This is the fastest way I know to change an organization from being product and external competition focused to being process-laden and competing against itself internally.
A certain large software company we all love to bash has gone down this same road, and has many of the same problems that RIM is facing.
As for sending questionnaires to employees, good luck at finding employees who actually believe it would be listened to and not be used against them for speaking out against the current status quo.
Re:Revolutionary Management Strategy by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 07:00 · Score: 0

Enron, voted the most innovative company a couple of years in a row, had the same firing a percentage of underperformers each year and many executives gave the company line that they competed with themselves because nobody else was as good as them.
What is Enron's market cap?

A BlackBerry that can't read email by David+Gerard · 2011-07-01 04:02 · Score: 2, Funny

Research in Motion have broken much-needed barriers with the PlayBook tablet, a BlackBerry that can’t read email. And needs to be tethered to a phone.

“We feel a technology preview is just the thing we need to fight iPhone and Android in the consumer market,” said founder and co-CEO Mike Lazaridis. “The missing core functionality should be seen as areas of spectacular potential. Also, the board has ascertained that you should stay away from the brown acid, it’s not so good.”

The PlayBook has launched remarkably, with thousands of the devices being recalled for crippling operating system bugs straight after release.

In a double-tap Osborne through the head, the PlayBook uses the new QNX BlackBerry OS, which does not run current BlackBerry apps, will not be available on phones for another year and will not work on any current BlackBerry device. This is separate from OS 7, to be released soon, which will also not work on any existing BlackBerry. RIM’s present mobile carrier partners were “overwhelmed” to be stuck with so much already-obsolete stock, and developers were simply thrilled to have two dead platforms and one that didn't work yet..

RIM led the world into the smartphone era, several years before Apple’s iPhone turned everyone into the sort of twat you only ever used to see carrying a BlackBerry.

Technology industry rumours suggest a Microsoft takeover of RIM, considered an excellent match in competence and vision. “Synergy’s just another word for two and two makes one!” said Steve Ballmer. “We will assimilate your technological stench of death into our own.”

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http://rocknerd.co.uk

Re:A BlackBerry that can't read email by maxume · 2011-07-01 04:31 · Score: 0

If you are going to put the punch line in the subject, why bother following it up with a couple hundred words?

--
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Re:A BlackBerry that can't read email by Just+Some+Guy · 2011-07-01 07:30 · Score: 1

That's a very funny post, but please stop posting it whenever RIM comes up. It ages quickly.

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Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?

Perhaps we could take up a collection..... by Newer+Guy · 2011-07-01 04:07 · Score: 0

......and give the money to RIM so they can buy a clue!

Re:Perhaps we could take up a collection..... by gstrickler · 2011-07-01 04:46 · Score: 1

The open letter gave them many clues, for free. Based upon RIM's reply, they would recognize a clue if you shoved it down their throats.

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make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false

Eek... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 04:10 · Score: 0

you just lost your RiM job.

Response?? by JohnRoss1968 · 2011-07-01 04:10 · Score: 1

RIM calls this a response. They would have been better off just posting a message saying something along the lines of "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"
or "Theres nothing to see here , move along"
Their response was basic say everythings fine, and its not.

I wonder if he used his blackberry to send this by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 04:17 · Score: 0

be interesting , would you really trust RIM not to try and trace it if it was

It is a stupid Canadian tech company... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 04:22 · Score: 0

The operative word in there is "Canadian" which means risk averse, slow moving, and mostly static. It will die like all other Canadian tech companies and Canadians don't have what it takes to compete on a global scale. Hint: Nortel!

The only good think about RIM is the opportunity to make money by shorting its stock, assuming they don't get bought out.

Re:It is a stupid Canadian tech company... by canistel · 2011-07-01 05:00 · Score: 1

You sound... ...bitter... Did a Canadian hurt your poor little feelings once upon a time?
Re:It is a stupid Canadian tech company... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 05:39 · Score: 0

"The only good think about RIM"
Good think? You dumbfuck.

Shareholder revolt needed ASAP to save RIM by aristotle-dude · 2011-07-01 04:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

I'm not a fan of RIM products but I'd hate to see a Canadian company go the way of Commodore by having incompetent management run it into the ground.

The co-ceos need to be "FIRED" for cause for failing to do their jobs to protect shareholder equity and grow the business. They should not get any golden parachute and should be black balled from getting another CEO jobs in any publicly traded company.

Contrary to other commentaries, I do not believe Android is the answer. They need to work on QNX and develop a bridge API similar to Apple's Carbon to allow developers of BB apps to quickly port/recompile on their QNX platform.

They also need to refocus on their core competency which is corporate users. Get out of the BB for consumers market and focus their app world store on applications applicable to business users including getting apps like gotomeeting, join.me, Citrix receiver, Salesforce.com to work seamlessly on their future "superphones" and their tablets. Speaking of tablets, get a native email, calendaring and contacts client on their tablets. They need to have a "universal" app model for their tablet/superphone platform as well.

Finally, scrap the "Playbook" name. Think of something like "WorkBook", "WorkSlate", "WorkPad", "TaskBook", "TaskPad" , or "LaunchPad" instead. Not everyone is into football which I assume is where the playbook name comes from.

Basically, they have to either do that or sell off their hardware completely and get into the application market with BBM and BB Email clients for Android and iOS to compete with Good Technologies to offer "secure" corporate email on employee's personal smartphones and tablets that is kept encrypted and separate from the personal email. Think of it like a mini VM that just runs the BB stuff securely between the mobile device and the BES servers.

--
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.

Stick a fork in them... by grimmjeeper · 2011-07-01 04:24 · Score: 0

The empty words in the response letter are very telling. Upper management can't see the forest for the trees. They remind me of Kevin Bacon in Animal house when the riot is going on . "ALL IS WELL! REMAIN CALM!"

The RIM ship is sinking. RIM is losing huge chunks of market share left and right. It will come as no surprise in the coming months as more and more of the best and brightest among their teams get out while they can. And this will put RIM in a downward spiral. As more and more real talent leaves, the capability to deliver will plummet. Things will keep getting worse and worse until they go under.

This company is going to get managed right into the ground by a management team who only wants to surround themselves by yes-men. My advice to every single person at RIM is to get out while you can. It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when".

Who wants to be that the anonymous letter writer will identify himself in the upcoming months, right after he accepts a position at another company (like Google or Apple)?

Re:Stick a fork in them... by jbolden · 2011-07-01 05:21 · Score: 2

I remember people saying the same things about Apple. Companies with a respected brand name and some market share can release a killer product and recover. Shrinking market share often leads to very high margins and a more focused customer base, what RIM had when it essentially invented the smart phone.
Re:Stick a fork in them... by grimmjeeper · 2011-07-01 06:05 · Score: 0

So why pay for a phone with very high margins when you can get a competing Android or iPhone with the same basic functionality at a fraction of the cost?
Being in a niche is great. When you're all by yourself. But RIM no longer has that niche to itself and won't be able to justify high margins on their second rate equipment. Very few people want to develop for the BB now and according to everything we can see coming from management, it's not going to get any better.
Why don't you ask Sun or DEC about how great it is to be in a niche where you have very high margins? Oh... Wait...
Re:Stick a fork in them... by jbolden · 2011-07-01 06:17 · Score: 1

Ask the same questions about Apple 10 years ago. As for DEC they made a killing for years on VMS that's why Compaq bought their extremely profitable service arm, many years after VMS stopped being even considered for new business. As for Sun they weren't high margin low volume, they never were profitable when their volumes dropped.
Re:Stick a fork in them... by grimmjeeper · 2011-07-01 06:28 · Score: 1

Apple survived by getting out of their niche. What's was Apple's niche 10 years ago? Good graphics on desktop machines. What was happening at that time? The PC crowd was rapidly catching up. Where's that niche now? It's a low margin commodity. Where was the iPod 10 years ago? It was just coming into existence. Apple survived by breaking out of their niche and looking at the future. What has Apple been doing in the mean time? Innovating. They built the ultralight Macbook, the iPhone, the iTouch, the iPad. That's not sitting around in a niche making huge profits on high margins. That's breaking into new markets and pushing the advancement of technology.
Why did DEC, formerly one of the largest computer companies out there with a hugely successful product line get bought out by a PC manufacturer and then completely run into the ground? Stagnation in their niche. No new products. No looking to the future. DEC had a pretty good thing going with the Alpha but company management sat on it. Compaq killed off the dying brand.
For years Sun was the go-to for *nix boxen. Again, that's great until someone else comes in and eats your lunch while you sit around and do nothing. Hell, they let Wintel boxes outrun them.
What's the common theme here? Innovation leads to growth, or at least survivability. Sitting in your niche and ignoring the world moving past you is a sure recipe for failure. Which path is RIM on?
Re:Stick a fork in them... by jbolden · 2011-07-01 06:39 · Score: 1

Exactly. Your original point was that they were close to death. I'm disagreeing, I think they are about a year from being in a large profitable niche. They have been innovating. And they are still the leader in quite a few areas. And that buys them years. Obviously if they waste a decade they are done.
Re:Stick a fork in them... by grimmjeeper · 2011-07-01 07:43 · Score: 1

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't see that they're innovating anything and haven't for years. They may be the leader in a few select markets today but their niche is quickly being filled by other vendors. The fact that they're losing market share in a growing market is very telling. Large companies are dropping their BBs in favor of Android. These thing do not bode well for RIM. I just don't see this as a path to a large, profitable niche.
Re:Stick a fork in them... by jbolden · 2011-07-01 08:56 · Score: 1

I'll give you an example where they are years ahead.
http://us.blackberry.com/apps-software/business/blackberry_mvs/blackberrymvs5.jsp
Now lets be clear, this is an enterprise only product. The enterprise must have:
an in house high end feature rich PBX
BES
But no one else offers the ability to integrate enterprise PBX features into employee handsets. Avaya, Mitel... have an Avaya only product that does a fraction of this work but I can't manipulate that via. BES in particular I can push the installs, and auto configure I have to have each employee individually configure which is a nightmare i.e. no advanced features. And MVS is cheaper than most PBX vendor solutions (about $15-20k flat vs. $25-100 / head) .
There is an example. I could give a few more. But I think those are the sorts of things you aren't seeing. I'm not sure how large your company is.
Re:Stick a fork in them... by BitZtream · 2011-07-01 09:15 · Score: 1

Good graphics on desktop machines. What was happening at that time? The PC crowd was rapidly catching up. Where's that niche now?
Well, not sure if its the same niche, but PCs still haven't caught up, sorry.
PCs may be pushing the same number of pixel fragments, but having a matched monitor/video card with the proper color profiles and a monitor which looks good is what matters to a photoshop user, not how many billions of triangles it can push.
PCs and generic PC video hardware is all about pushing lots of pixel fragments, not about making it look good. A lot of quality is sacrificed in exchange for speed and price.

Hell, they let Wintel boxes outrun them
Yes, they let someone else take over the market for cheap web server boxes that host a few static sites. I'm afraid that if you look for big processing power, you'll find people still more than happy (well until Oracle came into the picture) to buy a big ass SPARC machine rather than 25 intel boxes and a few cluster controllers to make something almost capable of handling the same load.
intel and Windows beat them out in a market they weren't in at any point, and a market they didn't even try to get into as it was emerging. I don't really think its fair to say someone won a race when one of the two contestants didn't sign up for the race in the first place.
The only thing RIM ever had was a usable keyboard and an email client that managed to suck a little bit less than what came before it ... but was it in no way 'good' compared to ... well anything else other than even shittier 'smart phones'. They never really offered anything new, just slightly less suck than anyone else. Now that someone else bothered to put real effort into doing what BBs do, well, it makes a BB look like a complete joke. They will fail because their only selling point was 'we suck less than everyone else in an area that no one is putting any actual effort into!' ... then apple came along and made a minimal email client for a smart phone ... that was at least up to modern standards, and a web browser to match. At which point, every black berry on the planet instantly looked like something from the 80s ... which is more or less where its software and UI was always from anyway.

--
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Re:Stick a fork in them... by grimmjeeper · 2011-07-01 09:39 · Score: 1

One last response before I leave for the holiday weekend.
Sure. They're way ahead in PBX integration. No question about that. But PBX systems are evolving as well. With the big push towards VoIP, the need to integrate with complex PBX systems is going to vanish. Within the next couple of years, any 3/4G phone will be able to integrate to the company PBX with a software update. That will still take a while but you can bet several phone manufacturers are already working on it.
So fine, RIM has a few fingers still hanging on to that rock but their grip is slipping as the rock shifts and other people start putting their hands on that rock. They'll probably hang on for a while but RIM is, for all practical purposes, already most of the way out of the game. They have what they built over the last several years but it's already starting to slip away. Some companies will hang on and force their employees to use BBs, probably for years to come rather than paying to switch over their phones to a more modern system. But as the costs of maintenance for older systems keep going up and VoIP systems get cheaper, that business case will start to fall apart. The key to sustainability in that niche is whether you are gaining enough new customers to offset the ones you are losing. Given how many companies are dropping their BBs en masse, I can't see a good future for RIM. I just don't see RIM lasting too much longer.
Have a great holiday weekend.
Re:Stick a fork in them... by jbolden · 2011-07-01 11:09 · Score: 1

Have a great holiday weekend as well. And the new PBXes are all VOIP. They are SIP over MPLS and connect to the PSTN only when needed. That for example allows a BB customer to make international calls on their Blackberry without paying international rates (assuming the company is international).
The point is they have a few areas where they are years ahead. Their are companies that will stay with them and that buys them time. Now the question is what they do with it.

NO MORE RIM-JOB FOR YOU! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 04:25 · Score: 0

Looks like they'll be looking for somebody else to take his RIM-job, nudge nudge.

What an amazing reply from RIM !! by bradley13 · 2011-07-01 04:26 · Score: 0

That is an absolutely amazing response from RIM. Pure PR-crap, written by the clueless, for the clueless. It completely misses the reason for such an anonymous letter, namely, that RIM upper management is apparently in the habit of handing out "career-limiting" results to anyone to dares to express an opinion.

It has been clear since the advent of the iPhone that RIM missed the boat. This company response shows why, and makes it clear that there will be no recovery. RIM may have $3 billion in cash now, but in 10 years they will be just another patent troll.

--
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.

Yet another "out of touch" team at the helm by erroneus · 2011-07-01 04:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

There has been much talk about Microsoft's leadership failing due to "whatever" it is that the leadership can't seem to get beyond. Even with all this very public discussion, the leadership of Microsoft can't get their heads out of their asses to keep them from rolling.

It looks like RIM is in a similar position. And the fact that they publicly responded with doubt, suspicion and with a hint of anger, I would say they have a lot of trouble looking beyond their own egos as well.

RIM has huge potential in their own market. That market is always being threatened because that's the way the market works.

Do blackberry apps suck? I don't know -- I have never used blackberry apps other than the ones that came on the phone. There's certainly not a "market" in the sense that one exists for Apple and Android. Perhaps they need one too in order to remain interesting and relevant. But more than that, the game is more advanced now that Blackberry currently offers. And perhaps what they should be doing is leveraging their current client-server model so that apps live on servers and not just on clients. I'm already updating RIM with good ideas and I'm just a crappy, know-nothing who has used Blackberries and administered BESes. I know the product(s) and service(s) they offer and they have not evolved in the market significantly.

They are like the movie and music executives who are "risk averse" and simply want to remake the same things over and over again expecting to continue getting good results. The problem is, people get bored with the same things and the market is people.

Re:Yet another "out of touch" team at the helm by Ryanrule · 2011-07-01 11:34 · Score: 1

why did you mention microsoft, you linux/apple fuck? you invalidated your entire argument in one word. you are an equal to these execs in incompetence.

What about the E70 then by RotateLeftByte · 2011-07-01 04:41 · Score: 1

That was a real big lemon.

--
I'd rather be riding my '63 Triumph T120.

Coop students know this by Murdoch5 · 2011-07-01 04:45 · Score: 1

It's bad when Coop students can point out these issue, Years ago Rim had an all star product but even the SNES at one point was an all star product. Time for a new direction.

As someone who has worked alongside BB devs by wisnoskij · 2011-07-01 04:45 · Score: 1

I have to agree, it seems to be a horrible system to develop for.

I remember my company had me developing a version of their app for mobile devices that run Java ME and for BB they had an entire team and some BB dev support company to help out in the technical details and still they constantly encountered things that simply could not be worked around and development was slow.

--
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.

Re:As someone who has worked alongside BB devs by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 10:19 · Score: 0

Can you be more specific? I hear a lot that it is hard to develop for BB but people don't explain why. I'm genuinely curious.

Heard it before by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 04:48 · Score: 0

When asked for comment, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer replied with "developers! developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers!"

Android doesn't meet many enterprise requirenents by zizzybaloobah · 2011-07-01 04:48 · Score: 1

Android, while it may offer an improved UI, and more/better apps, it doesn't meet many needs of the enterprise:

Security and encryption
Enterprise device management
Intranet access

These are things that have always set Blackberry devices apart, and both iOS and Android are still playing catch-up. What would be nice is if RIM could make Blackberry Enterprise Server (BES) deliver all the benefits to iOS and Android devices also. But even here, Good Mobile Messaging (GMM) has already become well-known for providing enterprise features across a wide-array of mobile devices.

Um, excuse me? by MacGyver2210 · 2011-07-01 04:50 · Score: 1

Clearly this guy has never used an Android phone...

Android has a major weakness — it will always lack the simplicity and elegance that comes with end-to-end device software, middleware and hardware control.

Last I checked, Android was doing better with end-to-end device software than even Apple was, especially when it comes to things like Hardware Control. Apple's hardware has a basic functionality which can never be changed (without purchasing a new device). Android devices are pretty generic, and can be completely changed - at will, on the fly, in software - to use the hardware (correctly) however it wants. I can program my camera to stream over WiFi or 3G, and monitor it on my computer. I can do this in a couple hours this afternoon, and have it on the Market by dinner. With Apple, I have to purchase their XCode bullshit, and then code in an obscure user-unfriendly language - and only on a Mac. After this, I get to wait several months for them to say "Ok, you can put this on the App Store, but you have to charge $___ for it and we're keeping 75%. What kind of headache is that? Fuck Apple.

Blackberry is a waste of time. It has terrible software and hardware support, and it isn't popularly catered-to by most app developers. If they can overcome any or all of these things, perhaps they can get back a foothold on the market, but they will never lead or surpass the other players.

--
If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits

Re:Um, excuse me? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 05:12 · Score: 1, Insightful

Blackberry is a waste of time. It has terrible software and hardware support, and isn't popularly catered-to by most app developers.
Oh, so it's like Android?
Re:Um, excuse me? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 05:28 · Score: 0, Funny

Awww, is the poor fanboy piece of shit crying?
Re:Um, excuse me? by hab136 · 2011-07-04 20:39 · Score: 1

With Apple, I have to purchase their XCode bullshit, and then code in an obscure user-unfriendly language - and only on a Mac. After this, I get to wait several months for them to say "Ok, you can put this on the App Store, but you have to charge $___ for it and we're keeping 75%
Feel free to criticize, but please criticize actual facts and not inventions of your mind.
* Xcode is free with the required $99/year developer license; it only costs money if you're not an App Store developer (and it only costs $5 then). Feel free to complain about having to register as a developer and obtain a paid license, but Xcode is free for App Store developers.
* Objective C is not really obscure, unless you consider C obscure. User-unfriendly is subjective. In any event they have lifted the language requirements, so you're free to cross-compile from any language now.
* Android development requires Linux, which while free, still forces you to a specific system.
* The app approval process is arguably slow and restrictive, but they keep 30% and do not care what you charge.
* For apps you intend to distribute internally (i.e. only to yourself and/or your organization), no approval process is required. You can be running your app the same day.

How dare you... by bradgoodman · 2011-07-01 04:55 · Score: 0

How dare you speak this kind of "common sense" that everyone without the word "executive" in their title already knows.

This guy should be fired...from a cannon!

RIM is almost dead! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 04:58 · Score: 0

The company I worked for switched all their Black Berry phones for Android and Iphones. We even shutdown the Black Berry Server never to look back. RIM is on life support, and it won't be long now before they become a relic.

Think about it, do you know anyone who has switched from an Android or Iphone to favor a Black Berry? I doubt it!

Re:RIM is almost dead! by narcc · 2011-07-01 09:10 · Score: 1

Think about it, do you know anyone who has switched from an Android or Iphone to favor a Black Berry? I doubt it!
Why, yes, I do.
Doubt it all you want, but some people need their phone to do work. As it stands now, even those aging BB's are still the best option.

--
Required reading for internet skeptics

Solution: Android Blackberry by csumpi · 2011-07-01 05:00 · Score: 1

RIM should make a Blackberry that runs android.

In my experience Blackberries are the best made phones out their for business because of the superb keyboard and best sound quality over voice calls. (I also own iPhone and Droid2.)

Don't sink $[huge number here] into trying to get another app ecosystem going, go with android so executives can play angry birds, and just port the mail/calendar integration. It's all in java, too, so should not be hard.

RIM can donate to my bitcoin wallet for saving their company. - funny

Re:Solution: Android Blackberry by aristotle-dude · 2011-07-01 05:14 · Score: 2

You are as clueless as the RIM CEOs. Angry Birds? The last thing a business platform needs are games. Android is not the solution because the evolution of that platform is in the hands of Google. Google does not have the best interests of its partners at heart. They are as slimy as MSFT.
BB becoming just another Android OEM is as stupid as Nokia becoming an OEM for Windows Phone 7.
RIM needs to concentrate on the business market and come up with a strategy to get their existing app ecosystem over to their new QNX platform.
They need to do that or get into the middleware/app business for other platforms.

--
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
Re:Solution: Android Blackberry by faedle · 2011-07-01 05:35 · Score: 2

I think it is you that misses the point.
The CEO wants to play Angry Birds, so everybody gets iPhones. I've actually seen this happen at a few companies.
Re:Solution: Android Blackberry by csumpi · 2011-07-01 12:45 · Score: 1

It's not what people need, it's what they want.
My girlfriend works at a large law firm where everyone gets a smartphone for mobile email access. They can choose between a Blackberry and an iPhone. Guess what most people pick? (Not the Blackberry. Which is pretty funny, because having an iPhone, I don't think typing emails is a stronghold of it.)
If RIM continues trying to compete with their OS, they will loose most of their market share. I disagree with putting Google in the evil basket on this one, I think they would make pretty good concessions since RIM at this point still has a big market share, especially in the business world, and they have amazing hardware.
I also disagree with Nokia being stupid about WP7. WP7 (although I don't have a WP7 phone) looks pretty impressive, it will be good for both MS and Nokia. MS this way doesn't have to get into making phones, and Nokia has a chance to get the smart phone business going.
I know it sounds like a crazy idea, but if I told you a couple of years ago that we should build a micro blogging internet service where people would be limited to 140 characters, or if I pitched you that we should make crappy flash games and make m(b?)illions on people buying magic carrot seeds for their virtual farms, I think those would've sounded just as crazy.
Re:Solution: Android Blackberry by aristotle-dude · 2011-07-01 13:24 · Score: 1

I think it is you that misses the point.
The CEO wants to play Angry Birds, so everybody gets iPhones. I've actually seen this happen at a few companies.
Well my point is that RIM is just treading water and going with Android is not a solution nor is trying to compete directly with Apple's iOS and Android. If the CEO wants to play Angry Birds then he can buy his own damn phone or tablet and play on that.

--
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.

too late by Surt · 2011-07-01 05:07 · Score: 1

By the time your employees can tell you are making the wrong decisions, your corporate infrastructure is so screwed there is little hope of recovery. They'd basically need to wipe out their entire middle and upper management teams to fix this.

--
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking

Re:too late by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 05:47 · Score: 0

By the time your employees can tell you are making the wrong decisions, your corporate infrastructure is so screwed there is little hope of recovery. They'd basically need to wipe out their entire middle and upper management teams to fix this.
Of course we all know that will never happen... Instead, they will wipe out their entire development team to save money, further compounding the problem.

Enterprise - gone. Gov't - staying. by vinn · 2011-07-01 05:20 · Score: 2

Mostly I agree that Blackberry is very quickly losing the enterprise. Next January my phone contract will be up and I plan on getting a new Android phone to demo. If I can make everything work (calendaring, mail, etc) work with our enterprise, then I plan on ditching Blackberry by the end of 2012 for the whole company. I see no reason to keep Blackberry at this point. They went from being a year ahead of everyone to being at least 1 year behind, most likely 2.

However, don't forget that Blackberry really got it's start as a government provider. That's why the security has been ultra high and why it took them so long to get a phone with a camera. Because of those government contracts, they'll continue to exist for quite a while. I don't see those changing any time soon.

--
----- obSig

Business people by munky99999 · 2011-07-01 05:20 · Score: 1

When times are good the business people dont listen on how to improve things; why change something that's working well? When things start going badly they cant afford to change. The leadership's failures then get forced onto the little guy and they start to get abused with needing to work their ass off for free... because naturally the business downturn must be the employee's laziness.

The employees naturally dont take it well and just start slacking it and looking for a new job. The business rarely recovers when they start dying.

RIM is dying because of 1 major reason. Their closed nature. Google does everything it can to get developers to their platform. RIM does everything it can to get rid of developers. For RIM to turn this around they will need to become open like google at least. This isnt going to happen without all the highest up execs being fired.

Open Source by munky99999 · 2011-07-01 05:26 · Score: 1

If RIM would open source everything blackberry. How fast would RIM turn around? I bet 1 year time they'd push infront of iphone.

Re:Open Source by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-07-01 06:50 · Score: 1

Why, exactly, would a customer pick an "open source" BB over any other smartphone on the market today? What value does it add for them?

Incompetence. by MaWeiTao · 2011-07-01 05:28 · Score: 2

The problems that open letter describes is applicable to countless American companies. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again: this is the end result of business, marketing and economics majors being in charge. Engineers and designers should have been in charge. They've got a better understanding of the technology and are far more likely to be passionate about their products. It's not a certainty that things would improve, of course, but the odds are that they would indeed be better off.

I'm not surprised that management glossed offer the letter. It's already too late, even if they wanted to do something about it they can't. They botched things long ago. If they had the ability to turn the company around they wouldn't even be in this situation right now.

Re:Incompetence. by grimmjeeper · 2011-07-01 06:18 · Score: 1

Not so fast. I've worked at companies where the engineers were in charge. They blew through huge money doing research projects that never got more than a small fraction of a return on that investment. Spending tens of millions in R&D to generate hundreds of thousands in sales is no way to run a business. Sure, it was fun to work there. I got to play with all sorts of cool toys and try anything I wanted. It was fantastic right up until the day the company went under.
What a truly successful company does is have a balance between engineers and business people. The engineers need to be able to leverage open the funding streams by putting together a good case for a project. And the business people need to be there to make sure the company still makes money selling the things that are built.
In this case, I will agree with you. Management has already passed the point of no return. For RIM it's too late.
Re:Incompetence. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 06:57 · Score: 0

The biggest problem isn't that engineers and designers are not in charge, it's that the people in charge rarely consult with the engineers or designers. And if, by some miracle, they do involve them - they never actually listen or pay attention to what the engineers and designers are telling them.
Re:Incompetence. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 08:09 · Score: 0

The problems that open letter describes is applicable to countless American companies.
RIM is a Canadian company.
Re:Incompetence. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 10:58 · Score: 0

RIM is a Canadian company.
Re:Incompetence. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 21:21 · Score: 0

Engineers and designers should have been in charge. They've got a better understanding of the technology and are far more likely to be passionate about their products. It's not a certainty that things would improve, of course, but the odds are that they would indeed be better off.
Apple is run by a marketer keeping designers and engineers in the background with their existence barely acknowledged and /.ers praise it for being well run.

Even that is at risk by Junta · 2011-07-01 05:46 · Score: 1

More and more businesses are seeking to use data plans and equipment purchased by employees on their own dime instead of paying for phones and data plans just so they can force employee's to use a particular platform.

It's clear in the market that if you are trying to make use of whatever the employee buys for himself, you got to sort out an Android and iPhone strategy. Sure, businesses still care, but they simultaneously push for improvements in Android and iOS while at the same time realizing they frequently allow remote access to similarly 'unlocked' computers and therefore the risk isn't that new to fear.

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.

in the words of /b/... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 05:50 · Score: 0

NO U R

Publicity stunt? by mswhippingboy · 2011-07-01 05:52 · Score: 1

Could this be just a publicity stunt planned by upper management to gain some headlines?

Will management respond to the letter publicly stating something to the effect that "We've heard your cries and we have announced a new strategy blah, blah blah...", much like BP did after the oil spill, while actually not changing a damn thing?

Inquiring minds want to know - well actually, no, I don't really give a damn.

--
Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.

If I were RIM... by essjaytee · 2011-07-01 06:02 · Score: 1

(First draft, go easy on me)

We recognize that this company is at the most important single moment since its inception. We have created spectacular, world-leading, revolutionary products before and we will do so again. We promise to go back to basics, to only ship complete, innovative communication technology.

We will scout, develop and promote the best possible leadership to ensure that our primary goal - delivering exciting, world class mobile technology - is met now and in the future.

We will create a new, senior position for "Chief Creative Officer." We want to return to the helm of modern communications technology and that requires a strong voice of creativity and imagination. We must return to the forefront of innovation, and we must make that happen to survive in this modern world.

We will make every attempt to immediately open up communication channels between our management, engineers, problem-solvers and developers to ensure that the best ideas are seized upon, and every product meets our most stringent quality requirements.

The fact that communication is not open, direct and immediate within a world leading communications company is embarrassing and must be resolved.

We look forward to hearing your comments, ideas and frustrations and we can't wait to reveal to you great new products.

-RIM management

Challenge or opportunity? by rainmayun · 2011-07-01 06:20 · Score: 1

Sounds like a good time for a few of their lead engineers and technologies to depart and form a new company.

It has little to do with usability by argStyopa · 2011-07-01 06:32 · Score: 1

...in my experience, the reason I hated my BB and love my Android is that BB had such tight built-in controls for locking down the client.
New browser? Nope, no applications allowed by my IT dept!
Better map software? Nope, no applications allowed by my IT dept!
Music player? Nope, no applications allowed by my IT dept!
even navigation software, required by our safety policy when traveling, nope. Nope, no applications allowed by my IT dept!

Sure, I understand how attractive this can be for an IT dept, but users will never be happy with this.

As I recall, NT-client also had nice capabilities (for the time) to lock down user's client stations even to the point of the icon layout, color scheme, wallpaper, etc. I had a boss who was almost giddy at the idea that his employees couldn't change ANYTHING.

So now my IT dept has said 'use what you want, we're not supporting the device' - which seems both far more workable, reasonable for them, and user-friendly.

--
-Styopa

Why would that be bad? by Benfea · 2011-07-01 06:53 · Score: 1

If his arguments truly have no merit, then it won't make a splash in the tech press. People will simply blow him off as a disgruntled employee. So this is only bad if you feel that loyalty is more important than producing a good product.

Re:Why would that be bad? by mswhippingboy · 2011-07-01 07:32 · Score: 1

Disagreements on what is the best strategy at any moment in time happen all the time within companies. For better or worse, as a CEO (or similar high ranking position) of a company, it his/her JOB to set the company's direction, and employees are expected to follow a chain of command.
In a reasonable company (not every company is reasonable, btw), if you as an employee, disagree with the stated direction, you can make that known to your reports, or maybe even directly to the CEO him/her self. The CEO may accept your advisement and make the changes suggested, or he/she may ignore them. Sometimes this is because they are idiots, but many times its just because they have a different perspective on where the company should go than you do.
You, as an employee have the option of just letting it go, finding another job, starting your own company, or continuing to try and persuade officials within the organization that you are right. These are all ethical and healthy options. However, screaming to the press because you don't like the decisions of your CEO is most definitely, as it should be, grounds for termination.
Producing a good product is not the job of the CEO anyway - raising stakeholder value is. Good products are the responsibility of the engineering groups. Undermining stakeholder value doesn't cause the product to get better. However, it may well result in the layoffs of not only yourself, but possibly many of your co-workers as sales drop through the floor.

--
Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
Re:Why would that be bad? by BitZtream · 2011-07-01 08:16 · Score: 1

If his arguments truly have no merit, then it won't make a splash in the tech press. People will simply blow him off as a disgruntled employee. So this is only bad if you feel that loyalty is more important than producing a good product.
What box or rock have you been living under?
There have been numerous idiots running their mouths I can think of in recent years. Hell, you've got the current Mozilla moron whos spouting about how companies are wrong and he knows the way the business world should work ... because he works on a web browser ... its not like thats been on slashdot or anything ... or all over other news resources, or The Woz from Apple who is about as disgruntled and upset that he didn't make the splash that steve does that it oozes from every pore in his body constantly, and the media is happy to run with his ignorant statements.
No former Microsoft/Google/Apple/Yahoo/Sun/SCO bigwigs have made utterly fucking stupid and incorrect in every way statements that the press ran with like the word of god or anything ... thats not ever happened.
Well, its not happened in the last 30 seconds or so, but probably has happened again by the time you read this post.
Again I ask, what rock have you been living under?

--
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Re:Why would that be bad? by headkase · 2011-07-01 23:27 · Score: 1

Concerning Mozilla, you are wrong. Mozilla works on making the best web-browser they can. Business wants a web-browser that will never change for as long as possible so they don't have to spend a single cent on upgrading their stupid internal web-applications. See IE6 and every single problem it has hung over web-standards for half a decade or so. Now, business can say: we won't use Mozilla's web-browser because it isn't (stupidly) "stable" enough for us and you know what: who cares. Mozilla's market is not some staid business: let Microsoft deal with the headaches and such that come from serving that market. Mozilla will do just fine serving non-commercial users and users that aren't so short-sighted they'd cut off their own nose. And what does that mean? A decade from now Mozilla: as a web-browser company, will have and continue to have something that is competitive for what they do.

--
Shh.

E-mail? by MrEricSir · 2011-07-01 07:10 · Score: 1

If the best thing about a device is that it does e-mail, that's not saying much. E-mail is everywhere. It's like saying "well the power button works great!"

--
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."

Seem apropriate by Que914 · 2011-07-01 07:36 · Score: 1

http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2010-09-01/

RIM is Canadian by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 08:00 · Score: 0

Speaking of incompetence... did you know RIM was a Canadian company?

When did this rot START or was it induced? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 08:19 · Score: 0

I highly doubt the company was like this at the beginning. How did it start?

Was it when most management came from AT&T? Who is now firmly with Apple and their iPhones?

Hmmm....

Response confirms the author's paranoia. by retrosteve · 2011-07-01 12:14 · Score: 1

Author of anonymous letter:
"You have many smart employees, many that have great ideas for the future, but unfortunately the culture at RIM does not allow us to speak openly without having to worry about the career-limiting effects."

Anonymous RIM corporate-speak response:
"It is obviously difficult to address anonymous commentary and it is particularly difficult to believe that a “high level employee” in good standing with the company would choose to anonymously publish a letter on the web rather than engage their fellow executives in a constructive manner"

I'd hate to be a smart productive person at RIM right now with this kind of bullshit attitude going on. Obviously the points the employee makes are dead-on. There's too much deadwood, not enough vision, and a misplaced loyalty culture: people who speak up are in danger of losing their jobs, whereas high-level managers who make crap software just keep on making more of it.

Perception vs. Reality? by retrosteve · 2011-07-01 12:16 · Score: 1

I also love how the open letter keeps referring to the company being in the middle of a traumatic transition, whereas the corpo-shareholder-spin reply keeps assuring us that they're at the 'end' of this transition. R-i-i-i-g-h-t.

how about fixing /. ;can't view comments on bberry by mbourgon · 2011-07-01 12:28 · Score: 1

Because of the new comments method, I (ironically in this case) can't view any on my bberry.

--
"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples

Third tablet player by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-01 21:48 · Score: 0

I just come back in Europe from Canada, and I definitely considered bringing back a Playbook.
In the end I didn't for what may look an awkward reason: since iCab on Macintosh more than 20 years ago, I've been so much used to browser ad-filtering that I consider I just won't use a machine without an adbolcker. Now it happens that the Playbook is not just another tablet system, but one heavily built onto security. The QNX operating system is a real-time thing that is extremely secure -even its bootloader won't start if it has been tampered with apparently, and the user-accessible files and applications run in so well walled zones that I fear introducing a system-level port filter will be very hard if even feasible.
So, I believe browser adfiltering will only be feasible when RIM or an alternate browser will offer e. g. user-definable stylesheets, and... I chose to wait. I probably would have bought one if I had owned a Blackberry phone.

But apart from this ad-obsessed stance, I trust the QNX playbook for being more and more the single alternative to Apple/Android duopoly in the coming Tablets World.
And for the very same reason I only bought macintoshes for years (avoiding monopoly), I'll buy neither Apple nor Android, if I can.

(I say "if I can" because being european I recently saw the vanishing of the Wetab tablets (http://wetab.mobi/en), also an apparently serious, german alternative system. )

Blackberry is infinitely stronger a company, with a solid product. I definitely will buy one as soon as adblocking will be possible on it. And that I delay is not such an issue to them, because they have an original development path, involving their phone clients first, and all this context of enterprise-level system security: contrary to what I read in most "general-public tablet comparisons", I believe they can rely on an initial customer base while waiting for their applications base to increase (from, admittedly, almost zero now).

The incumbents dilemma by niftymitch · 2011-07-02 06:31 · Score: 1

RIM had a near total lock on smart phones.
This lock made it hard as heck for any level
of management to depart from the proven
recipe that has brought them success.

An examination of the financial models in
the company most likely will find that all
profits had been funneled into the pockets
of too small a list of projects and most
destructively into internal turf wars full of
false starts and schizophrenia in the leardership.

--
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.

Data plan? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-03 03:14 · Score: 0

Having just received a Torch, gratis - I was disappointed that my pre-paid SIM card+WiFi isn't enough to use "App World". For that (or the bundled Facebook + Twitter apps), you need to bless the phone with a Blackberry data plan. With the competitive environment in Canada, I cannot in good conscious give my money directly to either incumbent (although it will ultimately get there).

Why would I develop for a device that makes it difficult for people to get the software?

So now "the platform" is as useful for me as my $20 throw away nokia phone.

Re:how about fixing /. ;can't view comments on bbe by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-04 01:04 · Score: 0

Indeed, Slashdot 2.0 sucks big time.

BTW, whats with the opening of a hidden parent on every click on a child comment? I click/select text while reading, and on every click it pushes the current comment down into oblivion outside of the view-able area. That shit drives me insane. I tried to use noscript, but then I have to open each comment in a new window/tab.

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RIM Responds To an Employee's Open Letter

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