Apple Releases Mac OS X Lion, Updates Air

steffann was one of several readers to note that Apple has released OS X Lion for $30 available only through the Mac App Store. It's a 4 gig download so you better not be in a hurry. Lots of new stuff both cosmetic and functional. But if you're the sort of person who is going to install it today, then you already know what they are! They also updated the Air lineup, dropping the old white MacBooks entirely.

Comments

First Download?

[Chas]

Nah.

There's still value in solid media.

Re:First Download?

[Calos]

Likely you'd have to burn it to physical media in order to install it, no?

I guess strictly speaking there are ways around that, but that is the normal practice.

Re:First Download?

[Anonymous Coward]

No you don't burn to disc first. OS X will repartition your main drive and do the install within the running OS.

Re:First Download?

[Trashman]

Nah.

There's still value in solid media.

And you can you can have Lion on a physical disk if you want, by following these Instructions.

Re:First Download?

[larry bagina]

Apple will sell a USB installer in August for $70 or so.

Re:First Download?

[grub]

Nah.

I VNC'd to home earlier and did the update to Lion on my home iMac. It's there waiting for me...

Re:First Download?

[DJRumpy]

Or just wait until August. Apple has already indicated they will release it on USB stick for a higher price ($59 if I recall).

Re:First Download?

[frinkster]

If you know what you're doing, you can create a recovery CD from the contents of the download; and in a month or so, they're going to release it on USB stick.

The download is an installer package. When you are done downloading, you have to launch the installer package to initiate the upgrade. You are also free to copy that installer package to any number of media devices that you own. It's just one file, drag and drop will do the trick.

Re:First Download?

[Vaphell]

there is no "open" command on the Ubuntu CLI (on Apple's this is like a double click, it open the file with the program it is associated with), this is both obvious and easy (you already have the associations if you have a GUI double click);

yes, there is. It's called gnome-open

Re:First Download?

[Elbows]

there is no "open" command on the Ubuntu CLI (on Apple's this is like a double click, it open the file with the program it is associated with), this is both obvious and easy (you already have the associations if you have a GUI double click);

xdg-open is the command you're looking for. It should be available on any modern distro. There are also desktop-specific tools (gnome-open, kfmclient, etc), but xdg-open is a wrapper that identifies your desktop environment and calls the appropriate tool.

Re:First Download?

[BitZtream]

Why would you? You're just updating a bunch of files, for the most part an OS upgrade is a bunch of 'copy file to here' and an occasional 'update configuration file/db to reflect changes from updates'.

What OSes do you need to boot from a disk to upgrade?

Hell, you don't even have to do it with Windows from now on.

Re:First Download?

[nhaines]

Not everything you wrote makes sense, but I'd like to address some of your concerns. :)

They make a USB version for purchase in the store.

Having used Ubuntu for awhile now I really appreciate the Apple way of doing things. A few complaints about ubuntu:

• when the version of my four day old local copy of the repository was not correct, the GUI offered no help, it just wouldn't work;
• the GUI for apt-get doesn't let me refresh the local copy of the repository, forcing me to us the CLI, sigh;

I'm not sure what you mean by the GUI for apt-get. Ubuntu doesn't strictly have one of these although it has a few programs which fill the role: Ubuntu Software Center, Update Manager, and Synaptic. Ubuntu Software Center doesn't have a way to update the repository listings but Ubuntu will check for updates once a day if you're on the Internet so this should be automatic. That's not to say the feature wouldn't be useful. The other two programs have fairly clear methods for updates. I'd argue that Synaptic is the true front end for apt-get, and it's very comprehensive.

• the Ubuntu package manager is crustier than the Mac package manager, i.e. the apt-get for unison is way out of date, the Mac Ports version is newer;

This has nothing to do with the package manager but with the Ubuntu repositories. This is probably something that can be fixed in in Debian and Ubuntu. It is annoying how some software lags behind. Sometimes PPAs (personal package archives) that individuals add can help with this but these can be risky as they aren't vetted like the rest of the OS.

As for sshd, it doesn't enable remote root access by password as Ubuntu ships with no root password.

GUIs for server daemons aren't unified because you can pick your favorite software package and use it. This gives you more power and choice with the drawback of needing to know how each package works. I disagree with your premise that a [system services configuration] GUI that doesn't support every possible package just shouldn't be shipped. I think it makes more sense to start with core functionality that's stable, ship what you have, and improve it rather than not ship or work on something at all. If the GUI tool proves unsuitable for your purposes, then it's easily ignored until such time as it is.

The "Ubuntu GUI" is more of a way to use the standard desktop stuff, not to administer a server. So unless you're referring to server administration tools specifically, I'm not sure I agree with your opinion that Ubuntu would be better off as a CLI-only OS.

Re:First Download?

[node 3]

The value is about 12 cents a DVD-R nowadays

Plus however much your ISP charges you to download the data that will be recorded on the disc. For those who live outside the coverage area of cable and DSL, a 4 GB download costs $48 (estimate based on $60/mo 3G or satellite service with 5 GB/mo transfer cap).

Or you can take your Mac to an Apple Store (or any place with fast internet) or wait and buy Lion on a flash drive next month or go to a friend's house and download and burn a disc or flash drive, etc.

As usual, you are using highly contrived scenarios to try to make Apple look bad.

Re:First Download?

[node 3]

Nah, the value to Apple in *not* having "solid media" is the fact that the aforementioned technologies are no longer useful to skirt paying them the $30 "fix whats broken" tax on all the shiny Apple toys out there.

What are you talking about? "Fix what's broken"? What's broken about Snow Leopard? "Tax"? It's $29, which is extremely low for an OS. It's also free with all new Macs (and recent purchases).

And as for skirting (by that, you mean piracy of course), you can "skirt" it just as easily as before.

Re:First Download?

[node 3]

Leave it to Slashdot to bitch about a $60 operating system.

Re:First Download?

[Dynedain]

Mac .APP files are actually folders. The OS just visually packages them up to make it pretty.

Right-click on the Install App and choose Show Contents.

Inside the SharedSupport folder, there is a disc image called InstallESD.dmg

You can burn bootable discs or make USB sticks from that disc image. Enjoy!

Re:First Download?

[ColdWetDog]

According to the new Ars article (too lazy to link it), a USB version will be available for $70 in August. Quite a financial penalty for a USB Flash drive, but if you're so clueless that you can't make one by yourself, it will be a supported option.

Re:First Download?

[yarnosh]

Even burning it isn't necesary. You can copy the files on the disc image to a HD partition for flash drive using Disk Utility and it will boot and install without modification. Or at least you could with (Snow) Leopard. Really pretty slick, actually.

Re:First Download?

[gumbi west]

Your response was articulate and clear but represents the sort of fundamental misunderstanding of computing now that Ubuntu is exactly what I'm have a problem with. i.e.

The "Ubuntu GUI" is more of a way to use the standard desktop stuff, not to administer a server.

I want to use unison to sync my photo libraries across two laptops. This does not require a piece of hardware called a server, so I'm going to go ahead and call it a laptop task. I can do most of this from the GUI in apple, but installing and running unison requires the CLI (notice how installing and running it both required the CLI, I know what I was in for when I got it).

Ubuntu Software Center doesn't have a way to update the repository listings but Ubuntu will check for updates once a day if you're on the Internet so this should be automatic.

When I tried to install sshd it just kept failing. Eventually I figured that it wasn't the server but a needed update. It was 4 days out of date when I ran apt-get and updated it at the CLI. The computer is connected to the internet when on and on daily, so it is more broken that I initially suspected.

Ubuntu doesn't strictly have one of these although it has a few programs which fill the role: Ubuntu Software Center, Update Manager, and Synaptic. ... I'd argue that Synaptic is the true front end for apt-get, and it's very comprehensive.

[puts head in hands and cries] are there any more... no, I don't want to know.

This is probably something that can be fixed in in Debian and Ubuntu. It is annoying how some software lags behind.

yeah, it could be fixed, but it isn't.

As for sshd, it doesn't enable remote root access by password as Ubuntu ships with no root password.

Just installed sshd today and password access was on as well as root. Again, giving a GUI that lets you install and run sshd in this manner is the computer equivalent of handing someone a loaded gun and not asking if they are sure they know how not to shoot themselves first. It is a basic question, and it could save lots of anguish, so why not ask? If you are going to insist on handing them the guy, at least throw on the safety or something.

GUIs for server daemons aren't unified because you can pick your favorite software package and use it. This gives you more power and choice with the drawback of needing to know how each package works.

Nope, gives you more crap tools to learn, each with its own feel. There are probably 20 servers that you could rattle off that a user might want to run from their desktop/laptop (not server). There is no reason that when you turn on to the "on" position and it is not installed that it couldn't say, "I have to install that, wait a minute..." and then install it and turn it on.

I guess my frustration was that the GUI gave me a really easy way to install sshd but no way to manage it. I'd have been fine if it said, "caution, I only install" or better yet, "this took available for CLI installation only." Its when you throw in a GUI that I get confused.

Re:First Download?

[node 3]

Apple don't need any help looking bad. There's no excuse for not making DVD an option for those unable to download, it's a very simple solution and one that everyone else is able to do. Make it available at a reasonable extra charge if you must.

They are offering it on a USB drive in a few weeks.

And the idea of going through the hassle of disconnecting and hauling your computer to an Apple Store (which may be god knows how far away) is such a ridiculous workaround it doesn't even deserve a response

The idea that this is going to be an even remotely common scenario doesn't even deserve a response.

Re:First Download?

[node 3]

And some people (and by "some people", I mean "almost everyone") have no problem paying a fair price for something they want, even when there are "free" alternatives.

Re:First Download?

[thetoadwarrior]

People have already shared the OS X Lion installs and Apple will give it to you on a USB stick. It's possible to back it up.

Re:First Download?

[nettdata]

That's why OS X Lion will be available on USB thumb drive for $69 next month.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-20080981-17/mac-os-x-lion-pounces/

Re:First Download?

[BasilBrush]

Because the final option for those that are unable to download needs to cover ALL the people who can't download. Otherwise you need a final-final option.

There are Macs capable of running Lion that don't have DVD drives. But they all have USB ports.

Re:First Download?

[node 3]

They are offering it on a USB drive in a few weeks.

But at an unreasonable extra cost. And why USB? DVDs can be pressed for pennies.

What makes it unreasonable? It's $69, for an operating system! Apple makes it very easy to acquire and install Lion, all for $29. If you *really* need it on physical media, you pay the price. And that price is still quite low for an OS.

As for "why USB", Apple is phasing out optical drives. Every Lion-compatible Mac can boot off of USB, USB is faster than optical, smaller, more rugged. The *only* compelling argument for optical media is price, and if you *really* want Lion on DVD, you can burn it yourself.

The idea that this is going to be an even remotely common scenario doesn't even deserve a response.

Not having broadband isn't *that* rare. Not having broadband with a generous download limit is even less rare.

That's not the scenario you invented. Your scenario was lugging a desktop Mac into a store. This is not going to be a common occurrence. There are too many things that have to happen to trigger that, and there are plenty of other options that come to play before resorting to that.

Not the least of which is just buying Lion on a USB drive.

As for broadband, it's *very* common. And while there are caps, it's not common to have a cap where a one-time 4GB download is going to be difficult. Sure, it happens, and if it does, there are plenty of ways to work around it.

This is a contrived scenario which is going to affect a very small percentage of people. For those people, there are many options that allow them to upgrade to Lion within their restrictions, and it's not like they aren't used to having to, now and then, go through some amount of hassle or forego some internet activity, due to their lack of broadband.

Quite simply, this is a wholly exaggerated issue.

Re:First Download?

[Kethinov]

Are the disks you burn from that image tied to the type of Mac you downloaded the install file for, or will they install on any Mac that Lion supports?

Re:First Download?

[Golddess]

Why would you?

Because if, for whatever reason, you are doing a reformat and reinstall, you'd like to be able to skip the "Install 10.6" step and go straight to "Install 10.7"?

Re:First Download?

[CharlyFoxtrot]

You must've missed the part where they released a new Mac Mini today without a DVD drive. The writing is on the wall for optical media as far as Apple's concerned. Apple's betting big on the internet and "the cloud" and like always aren't shy about dragging everyone along with them.

Re:First Download?

[Dynedain]

I personally haven't tried yet, but I believe it's for supported Macs.

The only time I've seen Apple push machine-specific system disks was in the original media provided with a new Mac. And that's only because iLife and other non-free apps are bundled into a new machine, but not sold with OS upgrades.

Re:First Download?

[Dynedain]

Vista to Win7 did the same thing. Boot from a removeable disc or partition to install.

Considering how many files you're replacing that may be in active memory, "clean booting" for an OS install or major upgrade is a good idea.

Re:First Download?

[node 3]

What makes it unreasonable? It's $69, for an operating system! Apple makes it very easy to acquire and install Lion, all for $29. If you *really* need it on physical media, you pay the price. And that price is still quite low for an OS.

$40 extra for a 4 GB USB drive doesn't exactly sound like a fair price to me, even if $69 for an operating system is a fair price overall.

You just said "it's not a fair price, even if it's a fair price".

The $40 isn't just for a 4GB USB drive. It's for an OS on a fairly nice 4GB USB drive that will be manufactured in limited quantities, packaged and shipped to stores to be stocked. And it's not a required purchase, it's a convenience for those that need it that way, which the vast majority of their customers won't.

If you want Lion on a USB drive, you are free to do so yourself.

My problem with Apple is their "fuck you, you'll do it our way and like it" attitude. Not including optical drives on some of their machines is another highly dubious decision, given their low cost and not negligible usefulness. I use mine quite often.

Their '"fuck you, you'll do it our way and like it" attitude'? Where they give you many ways of acquiring Lion, including going into a store and downloading it from a local copy there? Or via USB if you really need it? Or offering a DVD drive as an option is "fuck you, you'll do it our way"?

But then Apple does have a history of dismissing things as obsolete before they actually are obsolete (floppy drives and parallel ports for example).

This is quite correct, however. Apple tends to stay ahead of the curve. For example, offering Lion on a USB drive instead of on DVD.

Re:First Download?

[TheCouchPotatoFamine]

on what relative merits do you even determine what the cost of that is? That's a retarded statement because I was talking about MEMORY markup, not the damned OS, whatever you dream it worth.

Re:First Download?

[Cronock]

And the rest of the world has stuff that actually works.

Re:First Download?

[Guy Harris]

xdg-open is the command you're looking for.

Unless you're trying to open a Web page's URL on Debian, in which case you're apparently supposed to use sensible-browser instead (and, if your software uses xdg-open on UN*Xes that don't have the string "Mac OS X" in their name, the Debian package for your software patches it to use sensible-browser). It appears that not all Debian derivatives follow that path, however.

Re:First Download?

[Guy Harris]

Leave it to Slashdot to bitch about a $60 operating system.

Considering that some of us have had a free OS for a good chunk of the last 20 years?

YOU DAMN BETCHA!

Well, then, you're probably not going to start using OS X any time soon, so the extra $30 for the USB stick won't matter to you, so you have nothing to bitch about in that department.

Re:First Download?

[Spaseboy]

The InstallESD.dmg is a generic installation disk. If you don't purchase Lion (or use an App Store account that has) you cannot use the internet recovery option that is on the recovery partition, though.

Re:First Download?

[Spaseboy]

Lion's install is like Snow Leopard's install. It creates a temporary system folder on the boot drive and then reboots using that (my install didn't delete the folder after reboot, had to do it manually). Windows installs do the same thing, IIRC.

Re:First Download?

[Spaseboy]

Meh, depends on the flash drive. If it's not read only and is slick, I would buy another version of Lion just for the novelty of an Apple flash drive, no different than collector's edition video games.

Re:First Download?

[Spaseboy]

Optical disc drives are slow, bulky, not easily RW and have limited capacity. In fact, every disc-based drive is slow when compared to solid state. Solid state was heralded as the future of discs in the late 90's, and would have been, except all of a sudden hard drives shot up in capacity and prices plummeted.

Optical discs are the new cassette tape. Go back to telling kids to get off your lawn.

Re:First Download?

[Rising Ape]

Except that solid state media is *vastly* more expensive than a pressed DVD. Several cents for a DVD vs several dollars for solid state media of the same capacity... hmm. Delivering data such as operating systems, software, films etc. on solid state media would be stupid. If all the stuff I bought on DVD had some on flash instead, I'd be hundreds or thousands poorer.

God forbid someone want to keep something that works rather than just go for the new expensive shiny thing for the hell of it.

Re:First Download?

[node 3]

You completely undermined your entire argument by calling me a fanboy. I've given you nothing but reasonable responses. You are dead set to exaggerate any downsides as though they are the most braindead choices Apple could make.

USB Flash drives are superior in every way, except price, to optical media, yet you say (highlighting yours) "Except for the most obvious way, the simplest way and the way everyone has done it for years, including Apple." As you know, Apple doesn't do things "the most obvious way", "the simplest way", or "the way everyone else has done it for years", even if Apple was one of those companies.

They move on. It's very clear that flash drives are the way forward. Or I should say, it's very clear that *Apple* thinks flash drives are the way forward. Just look at the MacBook Air and Mac mini.

And you also ignore the fact that Lion on a flash drive isn't just the addition of a flash drive, but it's the addition of a low-run, uniquely designed flash drive, that has to be shipped and stocked, and provides a convenience that some people will find worth $40. For everyone else, which is almost everyone, there are ways to acquire Lion that do not involve additional cost.

And one of these ways even includes getting it on DVD. Just not directly from Apple.

You call me a fanboy, but you're the one who won't listen to reason. You are latching onto one little thing, and acting like it trumps all. You call *that* reasonable?

Re:First Download?

[node 3]

Except that solid state media is *vastly* more expensive than a pressed DVD. Several cents for a DVD vs several dollars for solid state media of the same capacity... hmm. Delivering data such as operating systems, software, films etc. on solid state media would be stupid. If all the stuff I bought on DVD had some on flash instead, I'd be hundreds or thousands poorer.

Why are you acting like this USB drive is something to be concerned about? Apple isn't saying, "let's sell all our software, movies, etc., on USB!" Quite the opposite, they are moving to selling everything as downloads now. They are moving *away* from those "several cent DVDs" (with which you completely ignore all the money involved in printing, packaging, shipping, stocking, etc., which far exceed the price of the disc itself).

USB is the fallback. And, aside from price, it's a superior fallback to optical. Apple is moving away from optical, half their consumer computer product line (or 40% if you want to include the Mac Pro) no longer includes built-in optical, not even as an option.

God forbid someone want to keep something that works rather than just go for the new expensive shiny thing for the hell of it.

Good for you. Buy a PC! Or burn Lion to a DVD. Apple is choosing to go one way, and whenever they've tried similar things in the past, they were usually right. Maybe they're wrong here, who knows. You certainly don't. You know what's good for you, I know what's good for me. Apple knows what they think is good for more of their customers. Only time will tell who's right.

Why are you acting like this is some big issue? The USB option isn't meant to be used very often. It's meant to be a fallback. If Apple finds demand for the USB drive exceeds their expectations, they will likely reconsider things. But they've looked at the numbers. They know how many of their customers have high speed internet, how many have access to an Apple Store, and can estimate how many should be able to find a friend or sympathetic retailer to help them. Their numbers tell them that the USB option is not going to be a big deal.

Re:First Download?

[simcop2387]

It comes from freedesktop.org stuff, i think the "X Desktop Guidelines" or something like that.  I think they avoided "open" for clashes with possibly other existing software, or possibly even shells. 

Re:First Download?

[bryan1945]

Then wait a few weeks and order the USB install drive.

Re:First Download?

[bryan1945]

Really? I just went to the Apple store and Lion isn't on sale yet. I guess you have a time machine?

Re:First Download?

[DJRumpy]

I'm guessing you do, since it's not August, nor has August past on the calendar (meaning in your world it's already September?). I should also note that I said Apple would sell it which you apparently read as "Apple will sell it in a brick and mortar store in a month prior to the month I mentioned."

Not to point out the obvios but it is currently July, just an fyi...

Why?

[Lunix Nutcase]

It's a 4 gig download so you better not be in a hurry.

Yeah it takes a whopping 30 minutes. That's like...forever and stuff.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a 4 gig download so you better not be in a hurry.

Yeah it takes a whopping 30 minutes. That's like...forever and stuff.

I live in the United States, you insensitive clod!

Re:Why?

[BlueToast]

Yeah it takes a whopping 7 to 11 minutes at college. That's like...forever and stuff

Re:Why?

[Richard_at_work]

Quick tip people, from the kind folk in #MacOSX on Freenode - after downloading from the Mac App Store, but prior to installing OSX 10.7, take a copy of the app file from /Applications and store it in a safe place because it won't be there after you install.

You will need to do this if you need access to the dmg for backup purposes.

Re:Why?

[AnotherShep]

I'm on Shaw. 4 gigs will take about as long as a timmies run.

Re:Why?

[smash]

Whilst a good idea - if you lose it you should be able to get it back off the app store from a snow leopard install if it all goes pear shaped.

Re:Why?

[roothog]

3 minutes here (college campus).

Re:Why?

[DJRumpy]

I can confirm this in the GM release, the installer is deleted after a successful reinstall. Make a copy of it, lock the original, and use the copy to install if you have multiple Mac's to put it on.

If you want to burn the installer to a bootable disk, then open the installer .App, right click it to show the pkg contents, expand the "SharedSupport" folder, and burn the InstallESD.dmg image to DVD.

Re:Why?

[evil_aaronm]

For those not from the Great White North, or not near it's southern border, "timmies" is slang for Tim Horton's, a chain of donut and coffee stores. Named after a hockey player: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Horton

Re:Why?

[sheddd]

I've never received fast data xfer rates from the appstore; I'm on a 7MB/sec connection right now (really 15 but limited by my wireless connection)... average download speed is .2MB/sec.

Re:Why?

[wazzzup]

I have cable internet with no download caps. However it's looking like my Lion download will be taking 5-6 hours.

Why?

Because Time Warner oversold my node. This became very apparent last week when a thunderstorm briefly knocked out power in my neighborhood my throughput speeds went through the roof - for a little bit. Speeds regularly dip into dialup threshold between 6-8 on weekdays.

Why don't I switch providers? Because they are my only option for internet access aside from dialup and I suppose satellite. So I would imagine that for a great number of people with cable internet and no caps this upgrade still going to be a multi-hour affair.

Count yourself lucky.

Re:Why?

[wed128]

Your college campus probably has it cached; that's why you're getting insane (3-digit) download speeds.

Re:Why?

[antdude]

Not on my pipe. :(

Re:Why?

[m.ducharme]

For those not from the Great White North, or not near it's southern border, "timmies" is slang for Tim Horton's, a chain of shitty donut and scorched coffee stores. Named after a hockey player: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Horton

FTFY

Re:Why?

[Theaetetus]

Whoops. Replying to destroy the mismod. Meant to mod you informative. Thanks for the tip!

Re:Why?

[node 3]

It's a 4 gig download so you better not be in a hurry.

Yeah it takes a whopping 30 minutes. That's like...forever and stuff.

Exactly.

I started my download this morning and had Lion installed before any Apple Stores were open. I had Lion installed sooner than had it been released today on disc. The download and install was quicker than driving to a store and back and installing!

Also, if Apple were to have pressed the discs and boxed and shipped them, Lion's release date would have been later than today. So even for those with internet speeds so slow that 4GB will take "all day", you'll still have Lion up and running faster than you would have otherwise.

You guys act like you don't ever download large files or something.

Re:Why?

[Duradin]

One would think that by /. standards any purchased coffee is scorched, over priced, and pretentious.

I wonder if there was an easy way to pirate Starbucks coffee would /. love Starbucks then?

Re:Why?

[ColdWetDog]

For those not from the Great White North, or not near it's southern border, "timmies" is slang for Tim Horton's, a chain of shitty donut and scorched coffee stores.

So, it's a Starbucks then.

Re:Why?

[m.ducharme]

Starbucks has better coffee, but is more pretentious. Tim Horton's is more working-class, though not exclusively so.

Re:Why?

[ColdWetDog]

Also, if Apple were to have pressed the discs and boxed and shipped them, Lion's release date would have been later than today.

And life would have continued. Not to rant at you personally but it's amusing how much angst is being displayed here. I'm going to go camping for a few days and will log in when I get back to see how all of you beta testers fared.

Anybody that rushes to overwrite a perfectly good OS with a new beta release on the first day deserves either a medal or a couple extra doses of your favorite antipsychotic. You'll need it...

Re:Why?

[Rising Ape]

Yes, if you live next door to the telephone exchange.

Re:Why?

[node 3]

Speaking of taking drugs, what exactly are you on? Lion is out of beta. The GM has been around for a few weeks and has no big issues. And in the astronomically unlikely event that I'm affected by some problem, I'm fully capable of restoring my system to exactly as it was before the upgrade with minimal hassle.

And who are you to tell others what software to install or not, or when? It's my computer, I'll run the beta, the final release, Debian Sid, whatever the hell I want. Like you said, life will go on for you no matter what choice I make for my own computer.

Re:Why?

[he-sk]

Aren't your purchaces linked to your app store account? IOW, unless Apple looses your data on their servers, you should be able to download it as many times as you like.

Disclaimer: I've only downloaded free (as in beer) software from the app store, with fake ID information, and without giving my credit card info. Hopefully, I'll be able to install Lion using app store gift certificates. If not, I'll have to create another app store account to download Lion. I do this, because I don't think Apple has a legitimate interest to know what software I run on my computer.

Re:Why?

[JamesP]

But who caches the first copy?

Is this some kind of HTTP/Squid caching or you can actually put a copy somewhere for Corporate/Academic environments?

Re:Why?

[CODiNE]

Not only that it's 3,755,503,180 bytes.

That's only 3.5GB if you're not up to date with the mebi mibibytes or whatever.

Re:Why?

[Ricwot]

Well, it's taking me 14 hours on my piece of shit connexion. Better be worth both £21 and the time it takes.

Re:Why?

[davesag]

i was wondering about that.

I have 4 macs here at home and was not looking forward to having to grab 16Gb of data (okay it's still not that much I agree but here in Australia we have download caps and that would use up a signifiant chunk of most people's cap).

So if I copy the app file to my other macs I assume I can just run that on each one and voila. Or does the app store tag each machine especially?

Re:Why?

[blankgm]

30 minutes? You were lucky. Started my download (via business DSL) yesterday 10AM EST - at 5PM less than 25% download completed. Ran overnight. This morning had a "Error Occurred" notice and now the server appears to be down.

Re:Why?

[AmiMoJo]

I bet they did this so that they can make sure you always download an installer with the latest patches. A few years back when I refurbished Macs running Tiger or Leopard there were always loads of updates to do after install. Tiger was particularly bad, needing about 1.5GB of data downloading an 10+ restarts because for some inexplicable reason it would download each Java update in full a version at a time. IIRC it was about 160MB per update and you had to re-start after each. Why now just download the latest one first time?

Re:Why?

[DJRumpy]

Odd thing. Now that it's officially released, the installer is on longer being deleted after the install completes. It appears the deletion was done outside of the installer. I've used the same GM seed on 3 other macs in my house and none of them has since deleted the installer.

Go figure. Perhaps it was just a beta thing. Anyone else seeing the same result?

Re:Why?

[vought]

"Also, if Apple were to have pressed the discs and boxed and shipped them, Lion's release date would have been later than today"

Bull. Design and printing of packaging never gates schedule like that. You could have stacks of boxes ready a week before GM.

Shame about those on Leopard

[Anonymous Coward]

No direct Lion upgrade for you. You have to purchase Snow Leopard first, just for the privilege to go to Lion.

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[dogmatixpsych]

That's not true. You have to have Snow Leopard to download it (but you can download in an Apple store or get Lion elsewhere). Burn it to DVD or put it on a flash drive and you can install it on any Intel-based Mac, regardless of current OS.

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[Calos]

That seems rather arbitrary. Why would they do this?

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[sglewis100]

That seems rather arbitrary. Why would they do this?

Snow Leopard was also $29. I don't think it's arbitrary, or unreasonable. They no longer charge $129, but they do release an OS every 12 to 18 months or so, and it's $29 to buy. If you skip one, it's $58. Or you can always do what I did and buy a new MacBook Air and get it for free. But then... I couldn't resist the allure of an i7 MacBook Air 11".

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[fyngyrz]

That seems rather arbitrary. Why would they do this?

They've made some truly bizarre decisions with Lion; pulled the Rosetta (PPC) support for no reason at all; failed to supply upgrade disks; borked the modal interface (not that the modal interface was a good idea anyway... it's a huge step backwards for a desktop... and only temporarily acceptable on the iPad because it's unable to realistically multitask applications) so that it doesn't work worth a darn with multiple monitors; provided no reasonable upgrade path for anyone on Leopard or previous; made the installer delete itself after running; and that's just what we know *before* the thing hits the end users.

Looks like upgrading to Lion is a solid no-go for me. Speaking as a guy with a Mac Pro, 3 Minis, an Air and a Macbook Pro in the house. I see no reason at all to just toss out my investment in PPC software, which currently works just fine.

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[hackertourist]

borked the modal interface

What do you mean by this?

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[Calos]

Why is it not unreasonable to force users to buy previous versions of the OS, if they aren't dependencies for the current version?

You can apparently just get the physical media or do it from the store to get the current version, but otherwise you have to pay for a version you won't use just to pay for the version you will use (from what I surmise from GP's post).

My old laptop runs XP. Should I be forced to buy Vista to buy Windows 7? (Actually, the next step for it is probably Linux, but that's beside the point.) I don't see how this behavior is justifiable at all.

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[sglewis100]

Why is it not unreasonable to force users to buy previous versions of the OS, if they aren't dependencies for the current version?

You can apparently just get the physical media or do it from the store to get the current version, but otherwise you have to pay for a version you won't use just to pay for the version you will use (from what I surmise from GP's post).

My old laptop runs XP. Should I be forced to buy Vista to buy Windows 7? (Actually, the next step for it is probably Linux, but that's beside the point.) I don't see how this behavior is justifiable at all.

Besides the fact that until the physical version is released it's purchase is dependant upon a feature (App Store) that you don't have, and the fact that it's $29 not $129 or $229? No reason.

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[iluvcapra]

I think he means full-screen applications... I haven't seen what they do with multiple monitors, so I'm curious.

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[ashpool7]

Because to backport the App Store framework to 10.5 is too much (there are 10.6 frameworks it depends on). If you don't have SL, you can buy the USB stick coming out in August.

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[node 3]

Why is it not unreasonable to force users to buy previous versions of the OS, if they aren't dependencies for the current version?

Because it's an upgrade. Upgrades usually have restrictions to what versions they can upgrade from. Lion requires Snow Leopard. Snow Leopard required Leopard, etc.

You can apparently just get the physical media or do it from the store to get the current version, but otherwise you have to pay for a version you won't use just to pay for the version you will use (from what I surmise from GP's post).

You *are* using the "version you won't use" for two things. First, to download Lion. Second, as a pre-requisite to get a legitimate Lion license for only $29.

My old laptop runs XP. Should I be forced to buy Vista to buy Windows 7?

That's up to Microsoft to decide. They also have license requirements, most of which are *much* worse than Apple has for Lion (for example, they are tied to one computer at a time, some are even tied to one computer only, never allowed to be transferred). And even the *cheapest* non-student license for Windows 7 is more expensive than buying Snow Leopard + Lion.

(Actually, the next step for it is probably Linux, but that's beside the point.) I don't see how this behavior is justifiable at all.

That explains a lot right there. Why do you not think companies have the right to decide the terms under which they sell their products? There's nothing especially onerous about Apple's terms. In fact, they are much better (and cheaper) than most other commonly used systems!

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[UnknowingFool]

If I understand it correctly the Mac App store is only available for Snow Leopard. I think the architecture changes of Snow Leopard means thy would have to create a separate application for Leopard. They could do so but haven't. I could be wrong about this though.

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[thefolkmetal]

..buy a new MacBook Air and get it for free.

This is like the third or fourth time I've seen this phrase in this thread. Am I the only one who this doesn't make sense to? If the OS on its own costs $29, what on earth gives you the idea that you're getting it for free when you pay at minimum $1,200 for a laptop? You're paying for the hardware as well as the software.

Sure, it doesn't cost you any effort to go download and install it, but let's not kid ourselves here...

/rant

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[Palshife]

pulled the Rosetta (PPC) support for no reason at all

Lesson learned from Microsoft. Learn to replace, then deprecate, then delete. Otherwise you have 30-year old API's that limit your future development.

Seriously, they stopped selling PowerPC Macs years ago. They're not going to target their OS for five year old hardware.

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[fyngyrz]

Learn to replace, then deprecate, then delete. Otherwise you have 30-year old API's that limit your future development.

Seriously, they stopped selling PowerPC Macs years ago. They're not going to target their OS for five year old hardware.

Rosetta isn't an API. It's just a low-level emulation for PPC apps and drivers. Which, by the way, inherently got faster with every hardware upgrade. There was no need to remove it at all, other than download size (and it isn't very large, either.) In any case, it isn't about the OS target, it's about disrespect for your customers and the money they have invested. "Oh, that thing you paid $100 (or $10, or $499) for? Yeah, we're just arbitrarily going to make that no longer work. Also these drivers for your $1000 scanner. Tough." And no, it isn't acceptable to try and push the responsibility off onto 3rd party developers. For one thing, they may not still be around, but that doesn't mean the software doesn't, or shouldn't, work. For another, even if they are still around, I would rather they worked on new stuff than constantly have to go back and rewrite to accommodate Apple's bad habit of breaking the system one way or another.

Lastly, please don't hold Microsoft up as an example for incompatibility. I have software that was compiled under, and written for, Windows 98 that still runs just fine under Vista, XP and 7. They tried pretty hard to keep the OS from becoming a moving target; in this case (PPC emulation), Apple is not even trying. It's there in Snow Leopard, which is certainly a huge step away from the native PPC versions of the OS; As far as I know, Lion contains nothing at all post-Snow Leopard that I would find worth trading for the ability to run the programs and hardware I've already purchased. I've only read the feature list on Apple's site, so I may have missed something, but at this point... nah.

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[stewbacca]

My old laptop runs XP. Should I be forced to buy Vista to buy Windows 7? (Actually, the next step for it is probably Linux, but that's beside the point.) I don't see how this behavior is justifiable at all.

a) your old laptop most likely won't run Windows 7, so you can spend $600 or so for a new laptop and get Win7 for free.
b) It's $29 bucks to upgrade to Snow Leopard, then $29 bucks for Lion. That's a bargain. If Lion were $129, then it would be stupid to make us upgrade to Snow Leopard first.
c) the ONLY reason that Snow Leopard is required is because Lion is sold through the Mac App Store, which wasn't available until 10.6.6.
d) if you own a Mac, you can borrow anyone's Snow Leopard cd and install it for free. I've read that Apple stores will upgrade Leopard/Tiger/Panther/Puma/Hello Kitty to Snow Leopard for you for free if you want.

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[stewbacca]

It's not technically an upgrade. You can install it to a blank partition. The chicken/egg scenario is that you need a Snow Leopard Mac to be able to download it. You don't, however, need a Snow Leopard target volume to install onto.

If you can get the disc image by some other means, there's no need for Snow Leopard anywhere in the install equation.

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[Quirkz]

Technically, I think the Air's minimum is $999, but otherwise I agree with your math.

Re:Shame about those on Leopard

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Learn to replace, then deprecate, then delete. Otherwise you have 30-year old API's that limit your future development.

Seriously, they stopped selling PowerPC Macs years ago. They're not going to target their OS for five year old hardware.

Rosetta isn't an API. It's just a low-level emulation for PPC apps and drivers.

Which requires to keep around old deprecated APIs to work. Go stick with Snow Leopard and let others enjoy a leaner OS.

Download and burn

[dogmatixpsych]

The great thing is that you can download it, put it on a flash drive or burn it to a DVD and install it on all your computers. Apple has its faults but essentially giving Lion away is a nice gesture (Apple's profit margins are certainly high enough to allow Apple to do this). The thing I'm looking forward to is seeing if Lion speeds up my computer; Macs usually run faster after upgrading OS X.

Re:Download and burn

[dogmatixpsych]

There's no need from sarcasm. I was just commenting in general to the people who are not aware that you can do that with Lion. There are a lot of people who do not know that (in part because Apple doesn't explicitly state it).

Re:Download and burn

[Michael.LTN]

I had to buy Snow Leopard before I could download it since Leopard doesn't support the Mac App store. $30 isn't a big deal for an OS, it's a shame I had to spend $30 on an OS I've used for less than a month for the privilege of downloading the next OS for another $30 that I would otherwise be unable to get. Is it nice that you can burn it after you download it so you can install it without hassle on other machines? It's convenient, but I wouldn't call it nice. Nice would have been selling the OS outside of the App Store.

Re:Download and burn

[DogDude]

Apple: Bringing vendor lock-in to new levels!

Re:Download and burn

[Chaos Incarnate]

They'll be selling Lion on USB for $70 in a month or so, so you're still $10 ahead this way.

Re:Download and burn

[gumbi west]

You can buy it in a store, on a USB drive, for $40 more.

Re:Download and burn

[Midnight Thunder]

So what's going to prevent this appearing on the famous p2p sites in 20 minutes?

Re:Download and burn

[CrazyBusError]

Well generally, the facts that not only is it cheap enough to be an impulse purchase, but also that the last time a substantial piece of Apple software appeared on a p2p network (iLife, if I remember correctly) it had malware embedded in it.

For an evening's beer money, it hardly seems worth the risk.

Re:Download and burn

[SuperKendall]

So what's going to prevent this appearing on the famous p2p sites in 20 minutes?.

It'll be there (in fact it's there already since the GM version and this are the same). The only thing stopping you from using it is your personal sense of morals.

Isn't it better to have things that way than to have to maintain some kind of uber activation system that pirates just work around in 20 minutes ANYWAY, but that at some point mean you have to have a frustrating two-hour long phone chat because your activation is failing?

Re:Download and burn

[NJRoadfan]

Back in the 80s, Apple used to pretty much give all their OSes away for free, I think they started charging around System 7 or so. Later on they had a policy to make old versions available for download so people with old hardware can get their machines running. Once Steve Jobs returned, that policy stopped so the latest you can get on Apple's support site is System 7.5.5.

Re:Download and burn

[mikael_j]

Well, I'd say it's obvious this is more about user experience than good will.

Basically, what Apple sells is a system, an ecosystem, a user experience or whatever you want to call it and all those fluffy feelgood things that come with that tightly integrated "It Just Works" world. As part of this they've opted to just trust the user when it comes to software licenses because it enhances the user experience which means they make more money.

Re:Download and burn

[UnknowingFool]

Your sense of morals and your paranoia are the only things stopping you. Are you absolutely sure that download from a P2P site is not laden with spyware and malware? Personally I don't trust anything I get off P2P sites.

Re:Download and burn

[node 3]

The great thing is that you can download it, put it on a flash drive or burn it to a DVD and install it on all your computers

Really!!1!! You can do all that now???? That's revolutionary and changes everything. Whoever said Apple does not invent, take that!

Really? Whoever said Apple invented those things? Sounds more like the usual contrivences of your highly misguided mind.

Re:Download and burn

[SpeZek]

Unless you're downloading OSX_Lion_4_Windows.exe, I doubt you're going to have a malware problem.

Re:Download and burn

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Nothing, because Apple has very graciously avoided putting any kind of DRM or activation on OSX. In the past I've downloaded OSX releases from torrent sites to have quicker access before actually going into the store and buying a DVD when I could find the time. Now with the App Store I can totally skip that first step.

Re:Download and burn

[SimonTheSoundMan]

OS X 10.1 was a free upgrade from 10.0. All you had to do was visit an Apple retailer and supply your own CD/DVD.

Re:Download and burn

[Builder]

What makes you think that ? iLife was malware laden on the p2p sites.

Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[tepples]

Yeah it takes a whopping 30 minutes.

4 GB/dl * 8000 Mbit/GB * 1 dl/30 min * 1 min/60 s = 18 Mbps. Not everybody has access to an affordable 18 Mbps connection at home. Or were you talking about a 10-minute drive to a local Apple authorized retailer, downloading Lion on a 54 Mbps connection (which incidentally requires 802.11n or wired Ethernet because it's past the practical throughput of g), and driving back?

Furthermore, even if you're willing to let a download run overnight, a lot of areas are still subject to single digit GB per month caps. For example, a 4 GB download would use 4/5 (24 days) of a 5 GB/mo plan.

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[Anonymous Coward]

DSL is so 90s.

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[baka_toroi]

Retards like Lunix Nutcase probably do

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[TheGratefulNet]

oh yeah, that guy should move. because you (some pimple faced teenager) TELLS him he should move.

asshat.

choice of internet providers is the LAST thing you control. so many other things trump the decison to 'move to find better net connectivity'.

again, you're probably some asshole teen who types first and then thinks afterwards. STFU and go back to class.

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[SomeKDEUser]

Actually broadband is a good indicator of whether you in fact live in a backwater shithole.

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[evil_aaronm]

Son, the range of things you despise is -way- too narrow. You haven't even touched on New Jersey "drivers".

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[digitallife]

Took me about an hour on a cable line.
  And that's with a 80g download going at the same time :)

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[the_fat_kid]

now, now. I'm sure he moved to his moms basement because the WiFi speed is better down there.
not just because it put him closer to where she keeps the hot pockets.

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[boristdog]

Yep, us farmers should all move to the big city.

It's not like all this technology helps us farm more efficiently and keep your food prices down.

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[Duradin]

Don't get the city folk all riled up. Their food comes from the corner bodega, no farmers involved at all.

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[node 3]

Maybe you should stop living in some backwater shithole? I have middle tier cable service and 4 gig downloads are nothing.

Wow. You sir, represent every thing I despise. You think superior of yourself because of what you spend money on and where you live.

As bad as that may be, it's better than trying to hold everyone else back to the lowest common denominator.

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[jo_ham]

I have an affordable 50Mb cable connection, but then I don't live in the US. I will have to pay slightly more for Lion as a consequence. It won't take me anywhere near 30 minutes to download though.

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[ColdWetDog]

Why focus on the drivers when you can despise the entire state?

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[cthulhu11]

A few years ago I was stuck with ISDN for a while at home, which would have sucked for downloading Lion. But even then, I was 10 minutes away from 3-4 coffee places that would have sufficed, and 12 away from a library with excellent speed.

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[tepples]

But even then, I was 10 minutes away from 3-4 coffee places that would have sufficed

How do you think a coffee place would react to someone bringing in an iMac or a Mac mini + monitor?

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[cthulhu11]

I'm not aware of a jurisdiction that outlaws laptops.

Re:Not everybody has 18 Mbps

[bryan1945]

Still cheaper than Windows and better than Linux. Hmm.

Maybe include some details?

[twocows]

"But if you're the sort of person who is going to install it today, then you already know what they are!"
I'm not the sort of person who is going to install it today and I would like some actual details in the summary instead of links to a marketing page and a blog post about something unrelated. I do try to keep up to date even with things I have no intention of purchasing; I work in an industry where it is advantageous to do such.

For those who aren't able to psychicly deduce the details about something that just came out, here's the list of new features.

Re:Maybe include some details?

[JustinOpinion]

That's a useful list. There certainly are a lot of improvements in that list. Two that sound bad, however:

Auto Save: Lock documents You can lock a document at any time to prevent inadvertent changes. Two weeks after the last edit, Lion automatically locks the document for you. When you try to make a change, Lion alerts you and asks if you want to unlock or duplicate the file.

Having a lock feature is nice. But auto-locking the document seems like a nuisance. There are lots of documents that I edit on-and-off on a monthly or yearly schedule. I don't want to have an extra click just because I haven't touched that file in awhile. In fact, since OS X is pushing more and more for auto-backups and auto-versioning, auto-locking seems unnecessary. If you can always revert changes, then there's no need to give the user an extra 'are you sure you want to change this document' roadblock. To me, it's inconsistent for them to be pushing auto-saving/backup/versioning but also have auto-locking.

Full-Screen Apps: Go full screen Apps built to take advantage of the entire screen have a new full-screen button in the window title bar. Click it to expand the app window to fill the screen. Exit full-screen viewTo bring an app back to the desktop, move the pointer to the top of the screen to reveal the menu bar and click the “exit full-screen” button on the far right.

Apple's push towards full-screen apps seems like a small step backwards. They are basically expanding on the successful UI principles from iPhone and iPad and seeing if they work on laptops and desktops. This might be useful for some users, so as an option I think it's fine. I do, in fact, go to full-screen mode in Firefox sometimes, and I can see the benefit for other applications to really 'take over', even replacing the taskbar/etc. But the thing is that it breaks consistency. On iPhone/iPad, all applications behave a certain way, so it all makes sense and you can get used to it. But Apple machines now have too many kinds of applications (widgets, normal applications, maximized applications, these new full-screen applications, plus older 'full-screen apps' like front-row). It's becoming inconsistent, with a mixture of behaviors and UI conventions. This is the opposite of what Apple's nominal interface guidelines recommend. A full-screen UI also seems very inefficient on larger-display computers (desktops). It seems that Apple is optimizing the GUI for small form-factor devices at the expense of full-size computers. Optimizing for consumption over production of content. I worry that this is part of a larger trend to over-simplify desktop computing, making it less open, flexible and powerful.

Other Features: Overlay scroll bars The new overlay scroll bars appear when you need them and fade away when you don’t, resulting in a more streamlined experience.

I don't think that's a step in the right direction. Those little 'fade-away lines' make sense on a mobile phone, where space is at a premium. But on a desktop or laptop, I'd rather see the scroll-bars. It gives you something to mouse towards and grab. More importantly, it gives you constant feedback about where you are within a document, as well as information about the size of the document. This is useful information that you intuitively get when reading a book (you can see the thickness of the book and how far into it you are). Removing these subtle clues from applications reduces context and leads to user errors (e.g. thinking you've reached the end of the document when you hit some whitespace). The above complaints may seem nitpicky. Clearly there is a long list of very cool improvements. (Auto-saving and auto-versioning should be standard in any modern OS!) But as with any software/OS 'updrade' there always seem to be some things that get... worse.

Re:Maybe include some details?

[Paradise Pete]

I would like some actual details

Here's an almost overwhelming amount of information. Siracusa is amazing.

Re:Maybe include some details?

[neoform]

The list lies. I tried merging two identically named folders and I was never given the option to merge. :(

http://i.imgur.com/6PXTJ.png

Re:Maybe include some details?

[iluvcapra]

The Lock Documents and overlay scrollbars can be turned-off in preferences. Also, the new full-screen features in Mac OS X don't make applications full-screen obligate, you can always work with them in windows. There are naturally a lot of issues with UI consistency when you do this, but this doesn't seem to be a problem for game developers or users.

Re:Maybe include some details?

[mmortal03]

Other Features: Overlay scroll bars The new overlay scroll bars appear when you need them and fade away when you don’t, resulting in a more streamlined experience.

I don't think that's a step in the right direction. Those little 'fade-away lines' make sense on a mobile phone, where space is at a premium. But on a desktop or laptop, I'd rather see the scroll-bars. It gives you something to mouse towards and grab. More importantly, it gives you constant feedback about where you are within a document, as well as information about the size of the document. This is useful information that you intuitively get when reading a book (you can see the thickness of the book and how far into it you are). Removing these subtle clues from applications reduces context and leads to user errors (e.g. thinking you've reached the end of the document when you hit some whitespace).

Great point. I've tried hiding the scroll bar to view webpages with an add-on in Chrome, and I noticed the same thing. It's a nice thing to have the option of hiding it in certain situations on a desktop or laptop screen, but to have it as your only option is questionable.

Re:Maybe include some details?

[horigath]

That's a useful list. There certainly are a lot of improvements in that list. Two that sound bad, however:

Auto Save: Lock documents

Having a lock feature is nice. But auto-locking the document seems like a nuisance. There are lots of documents that I edit on-and-off on a monthly or yearly schedule. I don't want to have an extra click just because I haven't touched that file in awhile.

Having to click OK sounds no worse than the "old way" which was that you had to manually save your document. So for that specific use-case, it's exactly the same, and it's easy to imagine circumstances where having it set up this way would be a win. 'Course, it'd be nice to see it as a configurable option.

Other Features: Overlay scroll bars

I don't think that's a step in the right direction. Those little 'fade-away lines' make sense on a mobile phone, where space is at a premium. But on a desktop or laptop, I'd rather see the scroll-bars. It gives you something to mouse towards and grab. More importantly, it gives you constant feedback about where you are within a document, as well as information about the size of the document.

As far as I know, Lion's assumption is that you don't mouse towards and grab scroll bars ever because you are using a multitouch device to scroll, and if you aren't I think it'll use the old style (not that I know yet, of course–might be an issue on one of our machines that comes from near the end of life of Apple's nipple scroll-ball mouse but hasn't been replaced with anything less jammed to the point of failure with dust and dirt). It wouldn't surprise me at all to see this as an option in the prefs, too, and although I don't think the extra screen space is a waste I think that your document-size-clue point is a good one.

Re:Maybe include some details?

[torstenvl]

To me, it's inconsistent for them to be pushing auto-saving/backup/versioning but also have auto-locking.

You clearly haven't thought this through very well. The lock feature goes hand-in-hand with autosave - it keeps you from wasting hard drive space on revisions that are essentially just unimportant changes in scratch work that you never save.

Returning to the title bar pop-up menu, the "Revert to Last Saved Version" menu item returns the document to its last explicitly saved state (i.e., what it looked like the last time the user typed âOES or selected the "Save a Version" menu item). "Duplicate" will create a new document containing the same data as the current document. Finally, the "Lock" item will prevent any further changes to the document until it is explicitly unlocked by the user. Documents will also automatically be locked if they're not modified for a little while. The auto-lock time is configurable in the "Optionsâ¦" screen of the Time Machine preference pane (of all places), with values from one day to one year. The default is two weeks. [You can also turn auto-lock off.] [cite]

Apple's push towards full-screen apps seems like a small step backwards... Apple machines now have too many kinds of applications (widgets, normal applications, maximized applications, these new full-screen applications, plus older 'full-screen apps' like front-row).

You misunderstand. They permit putting an application into full-screen mode. There is not a "new [kind of] full-screen application[]" All this is is OS-level support for what you already do with Firefox. Implementing this in the API rather than having each app provide its own improves consistency. And having the option to full-screen, e.g., the Terminal makes the computer MORE open, flexible, and powerful, not less.

But on a desktop or laptop, I'd rather see the scroll-bars. It gives you something to mouse towards and grab. More importantly, it gives you constant feedback about where you are within a document, as well as information about the size of the document.

The default setting, "Automatically based on input type," will use overlay scroll bars as long as there's at least one touch-capable input device attached (though the trackpad on laptops doesn't count if any other external pointing devices are connected). If you don't like this kind of second-guessing, just choose one of the other options. The "When scrolling" option means always use overlay scroll bars, and the "Always" option means always show scroll bars [cite]

Re:Maybe include some details?

[Mab_Mass]

Re: full screen apps. It may sound like a gimmick, and to a certain extent it is. At the same time, though, a while back I was working on a fairly technical document, and I started writing it in Pages full screen mode. In this view, everything that wasn't my own content just disappears from the default view. I can easily mouse up to the top of the screen to see a menu, etc. if I need it, but for the most part, I only see the content I'm working on. The result? Without all of the distractions, I found that I could really just focus on my content and get things done. It was way, way better than I would have ever expected. So, yeah, I'm a fan of the option of a full-screen app, especially any time you have a single document that requires focus.

Re:Maybe include some details?

[daktari]

Personally I can't see myself upgrading in a hurry. I'm not particularly eager to turn my MBP into an iOS-like device (which some of these "improvements" seem to mimic).

But then again, I don't have an iPhone/iPad, don't use Apple Mail, Safari, iTunes, Facetime, or any other Apple software for that matter (except iWork/iCal). I compile my own server, run VMware Fusion, do some serious RAW editing with Lightroom, enjoy my music with Songbird, watch everything with VLC and do all my text editing with Textmate, use GIT for version control and store the majority of my files on a RAID NAS. I also prefer to use a proper quality mouse with SteerMouse over my trackpad. So perhaps I'm not your typical OSX user who this upgrade appears to be aimed at.

Call me an old dog, but on the surface I see more reasons to stay on Snow Leopard for as long as I can (until I can be convinced otherwise or are forced to upgrade). I'm not saying that there wouldn't be any welcome enhancements in this version for me. I just can't see them--yet.

Re:Maybe include some details?

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Having a lock feature is nice. But auto-locking the document seems like a nuisance. There are lots of documents that I edit on-and-off on a monthly or yearly schedule. I don't want to have an extra click just because I haven't touched that file in awhile. In fact, since OS X is pushing more and more for auto-backups and auto-versioning, auto-locking seems unnecessary. If you can always revert changes, then there's no need to give the user an extra 'are you sure you want to change this document' roadblock. To me, it's inconsistent for them to be pushing auto-saving/backup/versioning but also have auto-locking.

The auto-lock period is configurable to up to 1 year before a document auto-locks or you may disable it all together. The setting is hidden in "Preferences" > "Time Machine" > "Options"

Re:Maybe include some details?

[furball]

It seems that Apple is optimizing the GUI for small form-factor devices at the expense of full-size computers.

Yes. Apple is making a killing selling laptops, iPads, and iPhones. The writing is on the wall. Full-sized computers are soooooo 20th century.

I worry that this is part of a larger trend to over-simplify desktop computing, making it less open, flexible and powerful.

Desktop computing is dead.

Re:Maybe include some details?

[Haxzaw]

Don't fret about it too much, at least some of those options have toggles. If you don't like a feature you can toggle back to what you're familiar with.

Re:Maybe include some details?

[stewbacca]

You can turn off overlay scroll bars and always show them in system prefs.

You can easily NOT put app into full screen mode. The nice thing about full screen apps is they make their own desktop space. I put mail and iCal in full screen mode, then when I need them, swipe left/right to bring it up, and swipe back to my main desktop.

Most of the third party apps I've used don't work with the autosave. But for those that do, most people I work with (all Mac shop) turn it off by making the temp folder it writes to not writable, which prevents the autosave without pestering the user. Personally, I love the feature and is worth the $29 by itself. I haven't saved a document in over a month. I even crashed my computer and had to reboot. After reboot, it came back with every single window and every doc open that I had when it crashed. The downside is that the resume feature now brings the Windows startup experience to OS X. You know, the desktop appears in about 30 seconds, but you can't actually do anything for a full minute while a bunch of shit loads in the system tray and background?

Re:Maybe include some details?

[stewbacca]

I prefer a 27" cinema display connected to a Macbook Pro, but for the money, a 27" iMac will do just fine, thanks!

Re:Maybe include some details?

[Amarantine]

It's a nice thing to have the option of hiding it in certain situations on a desktop or laptop screen, but to have it as your only option is questionable.

It *is* an option. They hide by default, but can be turned on permanently.

Re:Maybe include some details?

[SydShamino]

It's really annoying that I can't set something to fullscreen on my second monitor anymore. When I go fullscreen, the OS decide to move it to the top monitor. It used to go fullscreen on whichever monitor the window was already on.

After seeing how it felt for an hour or so, I reverted to Snow Leopard. I can wait for a few patches.

Posted from my iPad.

Re:Maybe include some details?

[daktari]

Full-sized computers are soooooo 20th century.

Desktop computing is dead.

I fear you are right. But who is going to produce the content we consume on these 21st century devices?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Probably a good time

[Neil_Brown]

to pick up an only-slightly-used MacBook Air or Mac Mini on eBay, as some inevitably rush to upgrade...

Re:Probably a good time

[NekSnappa]

Be careful on the mini purchases. System specs for Lion calls for minimum processor of core 2 duo. Early core solos need not apply. Sadly my poor old mini doesn't make the grade.

Re:Probably a good time

[Neil_Brown]

Sadly my poor old mini doesn't make the grade.

Mine neither - but, since it's running as a server, I need to find out more about the Lion server applications before committing to new hardware - whether it would offer any benefit at all.

Re:Probably a good time

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

You feel bad? My poor Ma Mini has a G4 processor in it, and only 512MB RAM.

Re:Probably a good time

[H0p313ss]

You feel bad? My poor Ma Mini has a G4 processor in it, and only 512MB RAM.

All the power of an iPad without the touch screen... Perhaps I should start complaining about how badly Win 7 and Ubuntu 11.04 run on my 386?

Re:Probably a good time

[Sponge Bath]

My poor old Mac Mini only has a half eaten burrito that Steve Jobs could not finish inside. Talk about long boot times!

Re:Probably a good time

[NekSnappa]

I've got an old Luxo lamp iMac with a G4 that I don't use since getting the Mini. But can't seem to part with it despite it just sitting on the floor of my studio.

Re:Probably a good time

[TheRaven64]

I sold one of those about a year ago. It spent its life running OpenBSD, which supported it very nicely. So, when Apple stops supporting 10.5, at least there are other options for you...

Updated Mini's as well

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is a bummer, because they removed the optical disk drive from all Mini models. It's a bummer; my uncle is looking to get a new machine, and was looking at a mac mini. Now it's off of his list, because much of his massive media (movies, music, etc.) collection is on DVD or CD, and purchasing an external ODD for any non-portable machine is just silly.

Re:Updated Mini's as well

[smash]

to be fair, i've used the optical drive in my mini (2007) about 3 times. and one of those times was upgrading to snow leopard.

For the amount of use it doesn't get, I think its a smart move - considering in the AU market they've dropped the price by $200 in compensation. If you need an optical drive, a USB one will work for you to convert your media, or just play that using your existing player.

Re:Updated Mini's as well

[MemoryDragon]

The external AIR DVD drive still will work, I guess.

Re:Updated Mini's as well

[dogmatixpsych]

A Mac Mini isn't portable?

If an optical drive is so essential then either not buy the Mac Mini or purchase a external DVD drive. I've seen portable 2.5" ones for under $30 recently. Apple was the first major computer maker to do away with floppy drives (and now most people don't miss them) and add USB. I think moving away from any moving parts is a great trend that should increase reliability overall. We're moving beyond physical media. It can hurt some people in the transition period but we'll get through it.

Re:Updated Mini's as well

[smash]

Any USB optical drive should work.

Re:Updated Mini's as well

[gubers33]

I disagree with you because I used the drive almost on a daily basis on my Mini in 2008.

Re:Updated Mini's as well

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Which is a bummer, because they removed the optical disk drive from all Mini models. It's a bummer; my uncle is looking to get a new machine, and was looking at a mac mini. Now it's off of his list, because much of his massive media (movies, music, etc.) collection is on DVD or CD, and purchasing an external ODD for any non-portable machine is just silly.

Use "DVD or CD Sharing" with a Mac or Windows PC with an optical drive.

Re:Updated Mini's as well

[Megane]

That isn't all bad, though. I've had three of the older "Aluminum" style Powerbooks/MBPs and all three of them had problems with the drive coming out of alignment with the slot in the case, presumably due to deformation of the case from handling. Not only do I rarely use the drive to read or burn stuff, now I've got to worry if the drive itself is working right, too. And I still have to carry it around either way.

Re:Updated Mini's as well

[smash]

Well, you're one of the users who may need to buy an external drive then, or use drive sharing from your old mini to your new one. Online streaming media, online downloadable apps, etc are becoming more and more commonplace. People bitched when apple removed the floppy drive also, but the reality is that usage of the optical drive is not common for many people. Who would probably prefer not to pay for one.

If you're using a mini as an HTPC, you can easily rip your DVDs to a network share using your regular usage machine and stream from there. Would i prefer to have an inbuilt optical drive for the same price? Sure, but given the price drop and the level of usage it typically gets, i'm happy to see it gone to be honest.

Re:Updated Mini's as well

[FLaSh SWT]

Well they did drop the price by $100 and you can get the external superdrive for $79 so it is still cheaper than the model it replaces for a much more powerful machine.

The removal of the optical drive also provides room for a discreet graphics card (AMD Radeon HD 6630M).

Re:Bye bye Mac Books...

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you just compare Dell with Apple? Dell is never as shiny, trendy and hip as Apple. As a student, I want to be part of the herd that goes nuts with shiny. Fuck functionality, fuck price, fuck everything else but apple. What's so hard to understand here>?

Re:Err...

[dogmatixpsych]

"Can I drag and drop Lion from a net connected machine onto a USB drive and install it on a machine that isn't connected to the internet (eg: one I use for editing)?"

Yes.

"Apple are still fine with the 3 machine install for home use / application seat installed concurrently on both employees home and employer owned machines?"

You can install Lion on as many computers as you want. If you do it via the Mac App Store, I believe you're limited to 10 computers (you'd have to sign in with one account). If you install from flash drive or DVD, there is no limit on how many computers you can install it on (you'd just be skirting/disregarding the EULA if you did more than 10).

Which "areas"?

[SuperKendall]

I just have simple cable internet and the 4GB download would take about 30 minutes (from past experience with Apple's downloads).

What "areas" have single digit GB caps? That would pretty much be only wireless services. You know what, I probably would not downloaded it over a tethered connection...

Re:Which "areas"?

[Calos]

I've seen local cable companies with a bottom tier of 1 GB/month. More expensive service gets you to 50 GB/month, but that's still not a lot, especially for a multi-person residence.

http://help.cableone.net/HSD/Plans/Data%20Plans/FAQ.aspx and note that their "Elite" data tier requires you to bundle phone, cable TV, and internet. They do have periods where usage does not count towards the cap, but that's still a pain in the ass.

Re:Which "areas"?

[Architect_sasyr]

What "areas" have single digit GB caps?

A lot of low-price packages in regional australia do. Low price here meaning $30/month or so.

Re:Which "areas"?

[Builder]

Many people in the UK are on a DSL internet connection with a 10GB cap.

about time for the mini to get a REAL VIDEO CARD!

[Joe_Dragon]

about time for the mini to get a REAL VIDEO CARD!

http://www.apple.com/macmini/features.html#graphics

only one TB port but that ok with HDMI and a HD 6630M in the $800 system.

But why not have a 7200 RPM hdd? the Server comes with dual 500GB 7200 disks? why just have 1 500 7200 HDD in the base systems?

and only 2GB in the $600 system? and $100.00 more to get 4 GB? better off paying $200 more to get a 4GB ram faster CPU and video card with it's own ram.

$150 to go from 500GB to 750GB? You can get a 3TB HDD for $150.

In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[itsdapead]

(A) For the people moaning about no physical media, they have also announced that there will be a physical version available on a USB thumb drive next month (gives them time for the first patches!) albeit for a considerable premium ($70 vs. $30 for download).

(B) Also interesting is the new 27" Thunderbolt Display which includes webcam, microphone, a sound system, gigabit Ethernet, Firewire 800 and a thunderbolt daisy-chain port for additional peripherals and monitors - all via a single thunderbolt connection to a Mac (plus a magsafe power output to charge your laptop).

Its still "reassuringly expensive", and only really makes sense as a "if you need to ask the price..." Macbook Pro companion, but it could represent the first example of the sort of things that Thunderbolt can do that USB3 can't.

(Yeah, the USB ports are still only USB2, but Mac users are more likely to have an investment in FW800 while they wait for reasonably-priced Thunderbolt drives).

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[evil_aaronm]

That makes the Thunderbolt Display almost a docking station, then.

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[Ambiguous Coward]

Almost?

All in all, it sounds pretty sweet. I had no idea thunderbolt could do all that. Color me impressed.

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[LWATCDR]

Well here is a link to newegg for 27 inch monioors that support 2560x1440 http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007617+600030620+600012694&QksAutoSuggestion=&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&Configurator=&IsNodeId=1&Subcategory=20&description=&Ntk=&CFG=&SpeTabStoreType=&AdvancedSearch=1&srchInDesc=
The cheapest is 839 not counting rebate but they all seem to be right around $999 with NEC at 1349 So with the display acting like a docking station as well as a monitor it looks pretty dang good to me at $999. In fact right in the same price range but with more features. You can buy cheap 27" monitors but they are just 1080p resolution. Which on a 27 inch monitor would be pretty bad.
The Mac Book pro isn't that badly priced for a quality professional notebook. Trust me I have seen Windows notebooks that sell for more that are not as well made.
People complain that Apple is expensive but the truth is they just don't offer a product in every product line.
Apple lacks an easy to expand mini tower for gamers and enthusiasts. I would love to see a Mac Mini with maybe one or two PCIE slots in a tower case for the same price. Not going to happen because that is a market that Apple isn't interested in.
Apple also lacks a sub $999 notebook. I would have loved to see Apple push out a new MacBook with an i3 and DVD and maybe a few more USBs for $599-$799. I think it would have been ideal for students.
The Mac Mini is actually really interesting. In many ways I can see it as the prefect machine for a lot of home users. It is tiny and not to shabby of a performer. Get a monitor with both DVI and HDMI and stick in a kids room. Use the HDMI for a Cable Tuner and the DVI for the Mini. Combine it with a wireless keyboard and you have a nice small TV plus computer setup not unlike the old Commodore 64 back in the day. Yes it will cost the average home user more than that $399 tower but frankly just a few vists from the geek squad to decrapify and clean malware will take up the difference.

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[UnknowingFool]

The original intent of Thunderbolt and LightPeak was to be external PCIe. While some solutions like eSATA and FireWire expose different aspects of the backbone to allow for data transfer, this exposes the whole bus.

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[jandrese]

I can't wait to watch my display's framerate go down when I'm downloading a large file over the network to a Firewire connected disk.

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[NJRoadfan]

Chances are a Thunderbolt adapter to a box with PCIe slots will eventually appear on the market.

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[Ambiguous Coward]

Ah, that makes a lot of sense then. I just never bothered to look into it, really, but that's freakin' sweet. Suddenly, I'm interested! ;)

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[hackertourist]

That's maybe an issue if you're driving a 2500x1600 display at 100 Hz. Apple has probably fixed the framerate of their Thunderbolt display at 60 Hz, so that's 7,68 Gbit/s for the display which leaves close to 2 Gbit/s for your file transfer. That's assuming the computer supports only one channel at 10 Gbit/s, but according to this page, the Thunderbolt interface has two channels at 10 Gbit/s each.

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[itsdapead]

Chances are a Thunderbolt adapter to a box with PCIe slots will eventually appear on the market.

Something like this you mean?

However, before you rush out and order your kick-ass dual-core turbo graphics card, remember that ThunderBolt is only two lanes of PCIe so it might not be optimal for that. The applications suggested in the ad are more sensible.

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[itsdapead]

Almost?

All in all, it sounds pretty sweet. I had no idea thunderbolt could do all that. Color me impressed.

I think Apple should have pulled out some stops and announced this display back when they launched Thunderbolt Macs, rather than burying it amid all the Lion hooha. This is exactly the sort of thing that distinguishes Thunderbolt from USB3.

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[timeOday]

My question is why did they give up on the 30" 2560x1600 monitor and go back down to 27"?

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[itsdapead]

My question is why did they give up on the 30" 2560x1600 monitor and go back down to 27"?

They dropped the 24" display at the same time as the 30". The average of 24 and 30 is 27. Simples! :-) Seriously, this probably was a happy medium between the two sizes/price points.

They also switched from 16:10 ratio to TV-style 16:9, so the panel size would change anyhow. Not sure there is such a thing as a 30" 16:9 panel - 30" monitors all seem to be 16:10 and quite a bit more expensive.

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

My question is why did they give up on the 30" 2560x1600 monitor and go back down to 27"?

Errm, why didn't you ask the question one year ago? Anyway, the answer is probably: because 30" panels have been stuck at 2560 x 1600 since Apple first shipped their 30" Cinema Display.

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[teh kurisu]

What I'd like to know is, if you plug one of these monitors into one of the new MacBook Airs, can you use the FW800 port on the monitor, despite the lack of FW hardware in the Air? I'm still a little bit hazy on how Thunderbolt works in this regard.

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[SimonTheSoundMan]

DisplayPort has its own 10GB/s channel, it does not use the two way 10GB/s PCIe interface.

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[SimonTheSoundMan]

Gb/s, sorry!

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[LWATCDR]

Thuderbolt is fast but not as fast as many people think it is. The boxes I see only support 2 PCIe Lanes which is not enough for a high to moderate video card.
Like I said a Mini with even a single good PCIe slot would be nice. Even better if I could add more SIMMs and SATA drives to it. But Apple doesn't seem interested in something between the mini and Mac Pro. The iMacs are not bad for what you get but again they are not expandable enough for an enthusiast or a cheap professional. Apple is making money hand over fist and users love them so it is hard to be too critical. They are no obligated to make what I want.

Re:In other news... Physical Media and Thunderbolt

[jeffb (2.718)]

16x9 panels have better manufacturability than 16x10 -- they tile more efficiently onto the raw glass sheets from which monitor glass is cut. You also get better economies of scale, since that's what everybody's demanding for consumer TVs. I do miss taller aspect ratios, though.

the mini is about small size. HDD + SDD is BTO

[Joe_Dragon]

the mini is about small size. HDD + SDD is BTO with the new mini and it still has Firewire, HDMI, USB + NOW with TB and a real video card in the $800 system.

Re:about time for the mini to get a REAL VIDEO CAR

[AccUser]

too. many. numbers.

Sat and 3G

[tepples]

What "areas" have single digit GB caps?

Places with no cable TV provider and which are too far away from the nearest DSLAM for DSL service.

That would pretty much be only wireless services.

Exactly: satellite and 3G.

Re:Sat and 3G

[sglewis100]

What "areas" have single digit GB caps?

Places with no cable TV provider and which are too far away from the nearest DSLAM for DSL service.

That would pretty much be only wireless services.

Exactly: satellite and 3G.

So between Apple soon offering a USB installer, and any number of places like Starbucks, McDonalds, Barnes and Noble, and a million Mom and Pop places with public WiFi, there's really NO way to get it? Or your office? Or a friend who can download it to a stick and mail it to you? Or the Apple Store itself which has free WiFi? Are there that many people who live near NO place with public WiFi, and have to have the latest Apple software on the first day of release?

Re:Sat and 3G

[Wovel]

Get fixed wireless then. Service is usually pretty good until skybeam buys your provider.

Re:Sat and 3G

[SuperKendall]

Places with no cable TV provider and which are too far away from the nearest DSLAM for DSL service.

I have a friend who lives out in the country, who was able to buy internet service over a direct wireless link until DSL finally arrived...

Even people in remote areas usually have better options. Yes there will be a handful that do not; trip to the city. You are not unused to having to go into town for some things when you live in a remote area.

Yes

[SuperKendall]

Can I drag and drop Lion from a net connected machine onto a USB drive and install it on a machine that isn't connected to the internet (eg: one I use for editing)?

Yes, follow instructions elsewhere for using the installer to create a bootable USB install device.

Apple are still fine with the 3 machine install for home use / application seat installed concurrently on both employees home and employer owned machines?

Up to five systems, basically tied to the AppleID you used to download Lion (though honestly I'm not sure it checks).

Re:Yes

[SimonTheSoundMan]

Mac App Store can be used on unlimited amount of machines. The 5 limit is for iTunes Store.

Re:Bye bye Mac Books...

[BlueToast]

Foolish clod.

Just firing up my...

[ack_call]

... US Robotics Sportster Voice 56K modem now.

Re:Just firing up my...

[gumbi west]

So you posted this over the 14K connection then?

Re:Just firing up my...

[dogmatixpsych]

Lucky! I'm stuck at 1200 baud.

Ports on the back of a TV

[tepples]

i've used the optical drive in my mini (2007) about 3 times.

Other people's experience differs. They use the Mac mini as a home theater PC and use the optical drive to play DVD Video discs.

If you need an optical drive, a USB one will work for you to convert your media, or just play that using your existing player.

Somebody with a Mac mini, a cable or satellite box for sports, and a Wii console already connected to the TV might not have another available port on the back of the TV for an upscaling DVD player.

Re:Ports on the back of a TV

[smash]

True of course, but I suspect that my experience is representative of many. The focus points of the mini are small size and low price. Given the low usage and space consumption of the optical drive and the move to network based media, its a prime candidate for removal. Which is why it went.

Re:Ports on the back of a TV

[tepples]

The focus points of the mini are small size and low price.

Specifically, the Mac mini is the only Mac under $2,400 that doesn't have a built-in monitor.

Re:Ports on the back of a TV

[CharlyFoxtrot]

It's pretty clear Apple doesn't care for people who use the Mini in this way since they've also removed Front Row. They want you to use the AppleTV 2 instead and stream media. I just hope they don't kill the market for the Mini this way since I quite like them.

Re:Ports on the back of a TV

[node 3]

Still contriving examples and acting like they are significant enough to be an issue.

If you want a Mac mini to play DVDs, you can buy an external drive. The *vast* majority of Macs never use their optical drives. By omitting them, Apple is saving people money for something they'll never need. And for those that do need them, they are available as an option.

Somebody with a Mac mini, a cable or satellite box for sports, and a Wii console already connected to the TV might not have another available port on the back of the TV for an upscaling DVD player.

Don't you see how contrived, uncommon, and easily solved this is?

Re:Ports on the back of a TV

[node 3]

You say that as though it's a bad thing.

Re:Ports on the back of a TV

[Rising Ape]

The *vast* majority of Macs never use their optical drives.

Do you have any evidence for this utterly implausible claim? They may not be used very often, but I can't think of anyone who hasn't used their home computer's optical drive at least occasionally. Software installations, extracting music, watching DVDs... unless you download absolutely everything, buy all your music online (and have no existing CD collection), never suffer an HD failure and need to reinstall the OS, you're going to need an optical drive at some point.

Re:Ports on the back of a TV

[tepples]

I guess node 3 imagines that music listeners will re-buy from iTunes Store giving Apple 30%, movie viewers will use iTunes rentals or a traditional DVD player, and gamers will re-buy all their non-Steam games from Mac App Store giving Apple 30%.

Re:Ports on the back of a TV

[node 3]

Sorry, I was using "never" colloquially, not literally. Apple has done the research and found that their optical drives are rarely used. Fewer and fewer people have "existing CD collections", and those that do, fewer and fewer haven't already ripped their CDs.

Software installations is covered by the Mac App Store. There is still software that is only available on CD/DVD, but that's changing. Apple knows how many MacBook Airs they've sold, and how many superdrives they've sold. They also know how many optical drives have failed, and how many computers that have come in for service had a failed optical drive that the customer didn't even know had failed.

Re:Ports on the back of a TV

[node 3]

I guess node 3 imagines that music listeners will re-buy from iTunes Store giving Apple 30%

Whoever said music listeners will re-buy their music from iTunes (and what does the 30% have to do with anything? Do you mention this if they buy their music from Target instead?).

movie viewers will use iTunes rentals or a traditional DVD player

Yes, they will (and do). And also use Netflix.

and gamers will re-buy all their non-Steam games from Mac App Store giving Apple 30%.

Again, the same 30% question arises. Do you think Steam sells games for free?

I never said there aren't people who use optical drives. I just said that most don't. Those that do still want them have plenty of options. What is your mental deficiency that takes *one*, very addressable issue, and turns it into some sort of critical flaw?

Actually, unlimited systems "you own or control"

[SuperKendall]

From the Ars review, the license reads:

(i) to download, install, use and run for personal, non-commercial use, one (1) copy of the Apple Software directly on each Apple-branded computer running Mac OS X Snow Leopard or Mac OS X Snow Leopard Server ("Mac Computer") that you own or control;

The installer doesn't check, any system that you "own or control" you have a license for. A company system might be a grey are (you control it but they own it, and also control to some degree) but the installer doesn't check and no-one really cares.

white?

[datapharmer]

They also updated the Air lineup, dropping the old white MacBooks entirely.

There was a white macbook air?

Re:white?

[SilverJets]

They also updated the Air lineup, dropping the old white MacBooks entirely.

There was a white macbook air?

No. They dropped the lower end of the Macbook line (the white ones). Now it is just the air and the pro.

Re:white?

[Quirkz]

Shame, too, as the standard MacBook has always been my target model. I don't really need or want to pay for the extra power in the Pro models, and I don't really want to pay for the miniaturization of the Air models (or put up with the 11" screen, and the missing ports and smaller battery life), so the standard MacBook has been my choice. If you count the iBooks as basically being a continuation of the same line I've had 3 of them over the years, all of them good.

I'd just been talking about upgrading, too, and was hopeful for today's update. Now I'm not quite sure where I fit.

Re:white?

[jemmyw]

Agreed, I also prefer the look and feel of the white Macbook to the Pro. I was hoping on an update because I'm also thinking of updating. Not sure what to do now, probably wait another year.

Need TRIM support for non-Apple SSDs

[DigiShaman]

Many months ago, I found a utility that enabled TRIM in Snow Leopard for my Intel SSD. At the time, I was running 10.6.7. Once 10.6.8 update got installed, Apple overwrote the settings so that TRIM got disabled again. I had to re-enable it with the same utility. It's still enabled btw.

I'm going to guess that Apple from a support policy, not technical, will refuse to enable TRIM for all non-Apple branded SSD drives. Perhaps they don't want to be blamed from loss of data and corruption, so they take the side of caution with hardware they don't directly control. So that would be my guess anyways. Can anyone confirm is this is still the case with Lion? If so, will Groth's utility still work?

BTW, here is the direct link to the utility and developer in question. http://www.groths.org/?page_id=322

Re:Need TRIM support for non-Apple SSDs

[DigiShaman]

Good to know. I've got an Intel X-25m 120GB SSD (model: SSDSA2M120G2GC) for my MacBook. I bought it a few months ago and was shipped with the latest firmware. And while 10.6.8 should support TRIM as you've said, it in fact disabled my little hack.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the future Apple locks down the hardware upgrades entirely. I could see them doing something as low as using hardware encryption to verify all hardware is certified at POST. No pass, no boot.

Re:Need TRIM support for non-Apple SSDs

[micsaund]

Here's a guy who's written-up a simple way to hack one of the files using Perl so that TRIM will work on any drive. I would prefer this over the application (see his page for info on why):

http://digitaldj.net/2011/07/21/trim-enabler-for-lion/

How can a DVD drive be 2.5"?

[tepples]

If an optical drive is so essential then either not buy the Mac Mini or purchase a external DVD drive.

Then I'll include the price of an external DVD drive whenever I quote the price of a Mac mini.

I've seen portable 2.5" ones for under $30 recently.

How can a DVD drive be 2.5" and still enclose the spinning disc? The disc is bigger than that. Can you quote a URL of what you're talking about? Google portable 2.5" dvd drive doesn't return anything relevant on the first page.

We're moving beyond physical media. It can hurt some people in the transition period

For example, people who live in areas with no cable or DSL rely on mailing DVDs around to send anything bigger than half the typical monthly transfer cap of 5 GB on a satellite or 3G plan, or to send video to someone with no home theater PC.

And the price of the monitor is...

[jeffb (2.718)]

Its still "reassuringly expensive", and only really makes sense as a "if you need to ask the price..." Macbook Pro companion, but it could represent the first example of the sort of things that Thunderbolt can do that USB3 can't.

It costs $999, which, based on a quick Google price check, is actually toward the low end for this size. There aren't that many out there; Dell's run $975 and up, and NEC's start at $1200. I don't know about DoubleSight; they claim to start just over $800, but I didn't find any reviews on the first pass.

A new Apple product with a competitive price? That annoying noise you hear is the sound of expectations being violated.

Re:And the price of the monitor is...

[DogDude]

My local computer shop sells 27" monitors for $329 every day. I don't understand people who not only purchase obscenely overpriced things with an "Apple" logo on them, but do so with such excitement.

Re:And the price of the monitor is...

[NJRoadfan]

Chances are those $329 monitors aren't 2560x1440 IPS panels.

Re:And the price of the monitor is...

[Anonymous Codger]

And does that $329 monitor double as a docking station? (For what it's worth I wouldn't buy a Thunderbolt display, but you're comparing Apples to meatballs.)

Re:And the price of the monitor is...

[caseih]

Not quite. Apple's 27" offering is a real monitor with real high resolution. The ones your local shop sells are just HDTVs. 1920x1080. Thus I can't see anything more on your average 27" HDTV than I can on a 20". Thunderbolt is 2560x1440. Quite a bit of difference. I used the older large apple screens (the ones that required a dual-link DVI video card), and have to say more pixels is very nice. Wish more companies would sell honest-to-goodness high resolution monitors. I type this on a 22" LCD that isn't any higher resolution than my screen 5 years ago. It's pretty sad.

Re:And the price of the monitor is...

[itsdapead]

It costs $999, which, based on a quick Google price check, is actually toward the low end for this size.

True, the Dell 27" monitors are a similar price and don't include webcams, sound, mic etc. - but OTOH they have a plethora of video inputs (DVI, HDMI, DisplayPort, Composite, Component) whereas the Apple only has a single, captive cable Mini Displayport (now Thunderbolt) input.

Hence my comment that it only makes sense as a MacBook Pro companion, in which case the onboard sound, webcam and USB, and the built in MacBook charger offset the lack of input flexibility. As such, its good value, but still expensive.

Its also in the doldrums between home/office monitors (<<$1000) and graphics pro monitors (from $1000 to infinity and beyond) - so its value kinda depends on whether you think glossy screens are the spawn of Satan and unfit for serious use. That seems to be a common view amongst pro users. Personally, I think that's hogwash - my visual cortex is very good at ignoring discernible reflections but if the light from the screen is swamped by scattered light from the whole room there's nothing you can do. Plus, you can always stick a 3rd party anti-glare filter in front of a glossy screen, but you can't make a matte screen glossy.

I use an Apple Cinema Display at work, where it only ever gets plugged into a MBP, and its a thing of beauty. At home, I use a HP 26" that is not nearly as good, but ain't bad and was half the price. If I was going to drop a grand on a monitor then, previously, I'd have gone for the Dell because of the input flexibility. However, the idea of Ethernet and FW built in and the possibility of daisychaining a third monitor makes my credit card itch. If they'd added an eSATA port I'd be sold.

Re:And the price of the monitor is...

[NJRoadfan]

HDTV is really holding monitors back. Since everyone is producing 16:9 1920x1080 panels for TV use, everyone is using them in computer monitors to cut costs. I much prefer 16:10 ratio displays (1920x1200), but they are pricey because its now considered a "niche" market.

Re:And the price of the monitor is...

[jo_ham]

They sell 2560x1440 IPS panels with LED backlights for $329? Can you pick a few up for me?

Re:And the price of the monitor is...

[santiagoanders]

Don't be a misleading jackass. Dell's u2711 is $900 right now straight from Dell. On sale it has gone as low as $769 (http://slickdeals.net/permadeal/44749). Apple products NEVER have sales that good.

debian

[macshit]

So... how well do they (the air) run debian?

Re:debian

[franciscohs]

Used Ubuntu for about 3 months and works great. The only problem is that the installation was a pain, lots of customized settings, mac specific repositories that are not available for every version, etc. Once everything was working, it was ok, run great really, but those little inconsistencies bothered me and in the end I ended installing OSX again (still testing, haven't used it before).

Re:debian

[macshit]

Hmm. So they still use nvidia gpus in the newer models?

The air is a sexy beast, and looking at laptops the other day in a store, I noticed that the low-end macbook air was actually very cheap -- cheaper than many roughly equivalent (but far more plasticy) models from other manuf.s.

BTW, do they give you a DVD with the OS on it or something? I don't really want to run macosx as the base OS, but it would be nice to have it running in a VM occasionally for testing etc...

Re:debian

[vought]

When you buy an Air you get a USB restore stick with OS and factory-fill apps, but Lion removes the need for a separate physical boot device for reinstalls, so chances are that Apple will use the cloud/app store more and more for reinstalls, banishing physical media forever.

Hopefully our ISPs can keep up....

Mac Minis lose their DVD drives!

[Shivetya]

Two major changes on the Mini front, available discreet graphics (at a cost) and no Superdrive.

If you want to use a DVD you have to buy an external drive now or map to a compatible system. Not a great change in my book and a backhand way of saving money on their side.

Re:Mac Minis lose their DVD drives!

[Wallslide]

A cynical person might look at the removal of the Superdrive option and say that it's a way to make Mac App Store apps that much more appealing than buying shrink-wrap software.

Re:Mac Minis lose their DVD drives!

[spire3661]

An intelligent person would say its a bit of that and a bit of the drive not being used by the vast majority of mini owners.

Re:Mac Minis lose their DVD drives!

[SuperKendall]

In my household there is a macbook, a mac mini, and two iphones. My next laptop will be a PC. My next desktop already is a PC.

So since you are already alienated Apple loses nothing by dropping support for something few people do anymore (most people these days buy music online rather than on CD's).

Your white Macbook will continue to receive system updates, typically older OS versions (it can run Snow Leopard) will receive updates a few years after the next OS comes out. I'm surprised that it cannot take Lion though as I was pretty sure the last Core Duo sold was about four years ago...

Apple is making choices that are better for consumers in the long run, and requiring somewhat newer hardware to work with them is not unreasonable. Snow leopard still works quite well...

same as GM release?

[Sarin]

Is this the same as the GM release?

Macbook no longer available

[hackertourist]

This means the least expensive Macbook is the Air, which comes with SSD only, the $999 model has 64 Gb of storage. And you need a Thunderbolt adapter to connect Ethernet and monitor.
If you want more expandability (space for a HDD, DVD drive that can be replaced by a second HDD or SSD, ports) you need the Macbook Pro for $1199 or more.

While Thunderbolt is a nice addition, needing an adapter to do anything is not in favor of the Air. It sucks that the price for a Macbook with specs I can live with has just gone up by $200.

Re:Macbook no longer available

[gubers33]

Apple has been notorious for coming up with great products, but missing out on hardware usability. There interface usability has always been pretty good, but hardware wise they seem to come up short a lot. The just to drop the Macbook was one so that they can make an extra buck. Others are a little harder to figure out. I, for one hate Apple's mouse, I don't know why they feel they needed to be different and not have separate right and left click buttons (I dual boot my Mac with Windows, why it annoys me). They have also made various attempts to over the years to implement new ports while sacrificing more established ones. First with Firewire, which never picked up much steam and now with Thunderbolt, which i also don't see it picking up much steam because I don't see USB and ethernet cables going anywhere. Although Thunderbolt is another one of their technologies so they see it as a way to make more money from the product, which everyone can understand, but it hurts the users more.

Re:Macbook no longer available

[UnknowingFool]

First of all when FireWire was released it was the best option for wired transfer. FireWire 400 still beats the pants off USB2. Over time other options like eSATA have come along which are better but USB still is not designed to do large transfers very well. For average consumers, it's fine but pros want other options like ThunderBolt. Second, Thunderbolt is the copper version of LightPeak which is an Intel technology. I believe Apple provided some assistance to Intel on the practical implementation details like the connector but ThunderBolt is assuredly an Intel invention. That's why the latest Sony and Dells have it.

Re:Macbook no longer available

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

And you need a Thunderbolt adapter to connect Ethernet and monitor.

No, actually, just for the monitor; you get Ethernet through a USB adapter.

Re:Macbook no longer available

[hackertourist]

A USB adapter would only provide 100 Mbit Ethernet. GbE requires Thunderbolt.

Re:Macbook no longer available

[gubers33]

I never said that FireWire wasn't a good technology or that USB was better. I am well aware that FireWire is faster, however it never picked up steam in the marketplace and still hasn't in terms of file transfers for usage Ethernet and USB reign supreme.

Re:Actually, unlimited systems "you own or control

[Bert64]

For non commercial use... A company system would be used for commercial uses, and thus wouldn't be valid under these terms.

Thunderbolt display

[hackertourist]

and here's another display that looks fabulous, but will only work with the latest Macs (unless someone comes up with a DVI/DisplayPort to Thunderbolt converter so we can at least use the display).
I should be used to Apple going whole hog for new standards every couple of years, but it's still annoying.

Re:Thunderbolt display

[UnknowingFool]

The Sony VAIO Z uses ThunderBolt but it is rumored their version is proprietary.

Re:Thunderbolt display

[itsdapead]

and here's another display that looks fabulous, but will only work with the latest Macs (unless someone comes up with a DVI/DisplayPort to Thunderbolt converter so we can at least use the display).

Well, its a watershed product for Thunderbolt - Firewire 800, GB Ethernet and a daisychain for other TB peripherals or a second monitor, on top of the sound/usb/webcam functionality of the previous display, all over a single connection to the laptop.

If you want to use old Macs, you probably don't want this, and if you want to plug in PCs, BluRay players etc. you don't want an Apple display at all. Last I looked, the original MiniDisplayPort Cinema display is still available, and there's plenty of third party alternatives (including monitors with Displayport).

But yes, its a pity they couldn't make it fall back to DisplayPort (my home machine is TB but my work machine is DisplayPort so that is a bit of a bummer).

Re:Thunderbolt display

[TheRaven64]

The daisy chaining is the killer feature. I know quite a few companies that issue employees with two computers - even though the laptop does almost everything they need, they want to be able to use two monitors and that's not possible from most laptops. With the ability to chain displays, they can now connect two displays, a keyboard, mouse, and external storage with a single port.

Re:Thunderbolt display

[hackertourist]

Huh? Companies that are too cheap to buy laptops that have a monitor port, aren't going to spend money on laptops that have Thunderbolt.

Re:Thunderbolt display

[itsdapead]

I think the GP meant that they give employees two computers so that they can have a portable system and a dual display (with better than 17" screens).

Personally, I find a laptop on an elevator stand, external keyboard, a large "main" screen and the laptop display as a dumping ground for palettes and reference tools does the job... although a triple-screen setup would be nice. I'm hoping that the TB-out on the new display will take a MDP-to-DVI adapter (Don't see why not): two Apple displays would be an... extravagance.

Re:Thunderbolt display

[TheRaven64]

How many laptops have two monitor ports? The only ones that I've seen have been the kind that would be more accurately termed luggables. Huge machines that call themselves 'desktop replacements' and mean 'desktop with a monitor built in and a battery that lasts just long enough to run between power sockets'. If you want multiple monitors and a laptop that can actually be classed as a portable, there aren't many options for you.

Oh, and one of the companies that I'm talking about is Google - they're hardly short on cash...

Re:Thunderbolt display

[hackertourist]

My misunderstanding: you talked about "two monitors" and I assumed that you meant laptop display + 1 external monitor.

Re:Thunderbolt display

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

and here's another display that looks fabulous, but will only work with the latest Macs (unless someone comes up with a DVI/DisplayPort to Thunderbolt converter so we can at least use the display).

I'd be surprised if the video didn't use DisplayPort, IOW you probably can plug the monitor directly into any Mini DisplayPort and get video.

Re:Thunderbolt display

[j-beda]

I think the Thunderbold display will work fine with a DisplayPort computer, but only as a display - you won't get to use the ehternet/USB/Firewire connections on the back of the display.

If you do not have a DisplayPort output, I don't know if anyone makes a DVI-to-DisplayPort (more accurately mini-DisplayPort) adapter.

Re:Actually, unlimited systems "you own or control

[Kjella]

A company system might be a grey are (you control it but they own it, and also control to some degree) but the installer doesn't check and no-one really cares.

Since you'd be prohibited from doing work (commercial use) after installing it, I doubt the company would approve. Unless you plan to argue that you don't actually work, you just surf slashdot so it's okay...

Thunderbolt KVM

[hackertourist]

Just in case a device manufacturer is reading /.:

What we need is a KVM switch that can handle all these display standards. I can hardly find DVI KVM switches, let alone Mini Displayport or Thunderbolt.

Re:Thunderbolt KVM

[shutdown -p now]

It's not hard to find a DVI KVM switch - I went through that exercise just recently - but they sure are expensive!

Re:penis

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Actually, it still is.

Actually, no it is not.

You're so far outside what could be considered "normal society" that you really aren't one to talk about what is or isn't an insult in any century.

The remote South is not considered 'normal society' either.

What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

So other than using my mac as an ipod why upgrade?

No need to copy though...

[SuperKendall]

You are also free to copy that installer package to any number of media devices that you own.

Although you are free to do so, it's not necessary - Opening up the app store on other computers you own will offer the ability to install it there as well (though each one would be a separate download, meaning if you knew what you were doing a copy operation would be better).

Re:Bye bye Mac Books...

[garyok]

My MacBook Pro is over 4 years old now and it still keeps up with the kids (even without an SSD). It was top-of-the-line when I bought it, but it has weathered well and I don't see any point in replacing it any time soon. The way I see it, I'd rather pay for a Rolls Royce and have it for 20 years than buy a Ford Fiesta and replace it in 18 months. GP's mac book is the Ford Fiesta.

How about Office

[Anonymous Coward]

Killing Rosetta means that my purchased version of Microsoft Office doesn't work anymore
on the computer where it used to work fine. Thanks but no thanks for Lion.

Re:How about Office

[Pop69]

His purchased version of office 2011 needs rosetta to run the installer

Confusing names

[assertation]

Is it just me or do the names for Apple's OS versions, hardware sound a lot like the name for sneakers?

Nike air, Apple, air, etc

Apple needs to license Magsafe

[hackertourist]

Thunderbolt is an ideal port for creating a docking station (as the new Thunderbolt display shows). But a docking station needs to be able to power the Mac as well, so it needs a Magsafe connector, and Apple has been a stick-in-the-mud about licensing that. Come on Apple! Don't shoot yourself and your market in the foot on this!

Re:Apple needs to license Magsafe

[stewbacca]

The Thunderbolt display has a magsafe and thunderbolt connector on one cable.

Re:about time for the mini to get a REAL VIDEO CAR

[alexhs]

too. many. numbers.

Too many periods !

Re:penis

[zach_the_lizard]

The remote regions of the South may not be 'normal society' (to you anyways), but gay as an insult is alive and well at least nationally in the US. See the guy lamenting the Xbox generation using gay as an insult still.The remote South isn't on XBL or your CS or TF2 server.

In any case, at least in my circle, gay can mean both "homosexual" and "lame." I have gay friends who use it in the same manner. Words change meaning, and the transformation of gay to "homosexual" from "happy" is just one example. Why can't it change again?

Re:about time for the mini to get a REAL VIDEO CAR

[UnknowingFool]

about time for the mini to get a REAL VIDEO CARD!

You do understand the intended target market for a Mac Mini is not for high end gaming right? For most consumers, the Intel HD 3000 is adequate.

only one TB port but that ok with HDMI and a HD 6630M in the $800 system.

Again you understand the Mac mini is not intended for professional market right? And how many TB ports does your average consumer need?

But why not have a 7200 RPM hdd? the Server comes with dual 500GB 7200 disks? why just have 1 500 7200 HDD in the base systems?

Again you don't seem to grasp what the Mac mini and server models are intended to do. Yes 7200 would be more powerful but does it really matter for your average consumer. Also the Mac mini uses laptop HDDs due to the smaller form factor because using 5.25" drives is not practical.

and only 2GB in the $600 system? and $100.00 more to get 4 GB? better off paying $200 more to get a 4GB ram faster CPU and video card with it's own ram.

If it's a dealbreaker then don't buy one. And how much RAM does an average consumer need? Do you know for a fact that 2GB on OS X isn't adequate? Also if you want more memory, this an easy upgrade that most customers can do themselves.

$150 to go from 500GB to 750GB? You can get a 3TB HDD for $150.

I was unable to find any 2.5" HDDs that are 3TB. The max capacity is 1GB. So the price for one is infinite or 0 depending on your perspective.

It seems that the entire basis of your complaints is that Apple didn't make the mac mini the midtower desktop that you wanted. It's like complaining the Toyota Prius can't go 0 to 60 in 3 secs and can't carry 8 people. If it's not for you don't buy it.

Re:about time for the mini to get a REAL VIDEO CAR

[makubesu]

Too many numbers! Too many periods! Making too many problems. And not much mod points to go around! Can't you see this is a thread of confusion?

How the installer works without a disk

[GlobalEcho]

As pointed out in the Ars Technica review, the installer creates a small (1GB) new partition on your hard drive without destroying any existing data. It then uses this partition to bootstrap the remainder of the install process.
(That's just the sort of approach I took with a Linux system years and years ago, though my reward was a whole weekend spent trying to fix a broken system and finally just erasing the HD).

Re:How the installer works without a disk

[cronot]

Hm, that sounds dangerous. I have a triple-boot setup on my MacPro (OSX, Windows 7 and Linux). How will Lion handle that? Sounds like it could trash one (or both) of my other OSes in the process...

Re:How the installer works without a disk

[schnikies79]

I triple boot my Macbook. OSX, Win7 and Ubuntu. It installed without issue and didn't harm the other partitions.

Re:How the installer works without a disk

[teh kurisu]

The recovery partition is a really handy thing to have (although I'll be making a DVD backup of the installer anyway).

I'm planning on doing a clean install of Lion, but I wanted to mirror my Snow Leopard installation to an external drive and then copy files over as and when needed. To do this, I installed Lion on the external drive, booted the recovery partition, and used Disk Utility to overwrite the Lion main partition with my Snow Leopard partition. It works as a bootable drive too, which is useful.

Ars Review

[BrentH]

For a thorough and interesting review see ARS: http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7.ars Even I as a non Mac user find the detail Ars always goes into with a new Mac release entertaining.

Re:penis

[Hazel Bergeron]

Three miles from here there is a field full of rape .

What does this tell us?

It tells us that a word can have two meanings.

Modal app interface - borked

[fyngyrz]

What do you mean by ["borked the modal interface"]?

By "borked", I primarily meant to imply they did a bad job of implementing it. Specifically, if you've got multiple monitors, the way it "works" is to blank all the monitors except one; it "replaces" the already present ability to pull a window full-screen with the ability to... have a window full screen while screwing up your ability to use the rest of your monitor hardware.

This is not even to consider that we had single tasking modal interfaces up until the Amiga in 1985, at which point anyone with even a lick of sense looked at the Amiga's ability to run many apps concurrently in a heterogeneous, multi-resolution/space environment and croaked out "oh, hey, that's how it should be done." No one had looked back since until certain devices (specifically IOS driven devices, Palms, that sort of thing) transitioned to systems that wouldn't multitask worth a darn. Then some cluetard at Apple got a wild hair that because IOS can't multitask, it'd be "great" to move that (cough) "capability" to the desktop. It's stupid-think, and a really good example of it, too. And not just because the ability to run a window full-screen (or over more than one screen) was basically already present in the OS, either. It's a "solution" in search of a non-existent problem that ends up creating new problems because it is implemented poorly.

Modal interfaces for desktops are a step (a very big one) backwards. Desktops need to continue advancing; they are not small systems and they can multitask very well. iPads and family need to continue advancing, and I hope that someday Apple will get the memo and increase the hardware in the hardware that runs IOS until IOS can also truly multitask, with windows, etc. The way it works now is clumsy and worse (trying to manage concurrent IMs, SMSs, a couple of applications and a shell session, for example.) The fact that IOS is modal -- one app at a a time -- is not an "advantage", it's a limitation. The only reason it's acceptable to me is because the hardware is so minimal. The idea of gluing this limitation onto OSX is brain-dead right out of the gate. Aside from the reported issue that they broke multiple monitor support in the process.

Re:Actually, unlimited systems "you own or control

[jandrese]

Basically, Apple has gone back to being a hardware company. I wish Microsoft would do this too, most people never upgrade Windows except when they buy a new machine because Microsoft charges an arm and a leg for each upgrade. With Apple there is little excuse not to be running the latest version.

That said, there is one reason not to upgrade to Lion: If you still use PowerPC based applications (like Quicken!), they won't work in Lion. Apple removed the compatibility layer and doesn't even offer a way to install it as an optional package.

Re:about time for the mini to get a REAL VIDEO CAR

[tibit]

It's like complaining the Toyota Prius can't go 0 to 60 in 3 secs and can't carry 8 people.

I think that the only vehicles that'd fit into those specs are called airplanes. Catapult launched carrier versions, to be specific.

Fixed wireless

[tepples]

Get fixed wireless then.

I thought "fixed wireless" was an offering of WiMAX providers such as Clear (now a Sprint company), just with an antenna pointed at a tower instead of moving around. If this is not the case, which providers do you consider reputable and widely available, so that I can look up the plans that they offer?

Re:Fixed wireless

[SuperKendall]

which providers do you consider reputable and widely available

That is a null set. As noted, the good providers are small local companies that actually care about your service. The large widespread companies are not as reliable.

Basically, RTFGS (Run The ******* Google Search)

Public Wi-Fi != public AC power

[tepples]

So between Apple soon offering a USB installer

I was under the understanding that we were referring to the present, not "soon". I apologize for the miscommunication.

any number of places like Starbucks, McDonalds, Barnes and Noble, and a million Mom and Pop places with public WiFi

Just because a restaurant has public Wi-Fi doesn't necessarily mean that it has public AC power jacks for someone to bring in an iMac or Mac mini to download Lion. Nor does it necessarily mean that it has enough throughput to complete the 4 GB download in 30 minutes before the connection times out and needs to be renewed through the captive portal. Does the download software allow a download to be paused and resumed across shutdowns so that the download can be completed in multiple visits?

Or the Apple Store itself which has free WiFi?

It takes a lot longer than "a whopping 30 minutes" to get to an Apple Store.

Re:Public Wi-Fi != public AC power

[sglewis100]

True. The USB stick isn't available yet. And if you don't live near an Apple store, that's why I named other places that might have WiFi. Mac Mini, iMac? Wow, you win. Look, let's face it. Apple sells mostly notebooks at this point. If you take the number of Mac owners who don't have a MacBook, MBP or MB Air AND who don't have decent broadband at home with a halfway reasonable cap, AND are unwilling to wait for the USB stick to come out... I suspect you'll have a fairly small number of users, who may or may not be excessively vocal about an issue that most people don't really care about.

Re:about time for the mini to get a REAL VIDEO CAR

[sessamoid]

Well done.

To anyone using Flashblock

[tepples]

Those using the Flashblock extension for Firefox will need to manually whitelist www.gapminder.org because the "Loading graph" div completely covers up the Flashblock icon.

Re:penis

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

... but gay as an insult is alive and well at least nationally in the US...

Right, some people are stuck in the past. The reality is that, despite the existence of shitheads, homosexuality is accepted in this society. You can argue about that if you like, but at the end of the day, somebody calling you gay will not result in having a duel at dawn anymore.

Your interpretation is suspect

[SuperKendall]

Since you'd be prohibited from doing work (commercial use) after installing it,

I own my own business. You are saying that after download, I cannot use Lion on my laptop for any business functions...

Come again? I highly doubt your interpretation is one Apple, or any users, would agree with.

Re:about time for the mini to get a REAL VIDEO CAR

[John Newman]

and only 2GB in the $600 system? and $100.00 more to get 4 GB? better off paying $200 more to get a 4GB ram faster CPU and video card with it's own ram.

$150 to go from 500GB to 750GB? You can get a 3TB HDD for $150.

Ha! And so your innocent slip of the tongue exposes you for what you are, agent of K'breel and the Council of Elders! No human born on Earth could even feign surprise at Apple's exorbitant charges for spec upgrades.

You're here to intercept Curiousity, aren't you? Your mission will now be in vain!

Dropping 32bit cpus

[bussdriver]

I have a laptop they dropped support on this OS that is older than the tower which is supported.

Its a hardware dump-- apple often drops old systems based upon some hardware feature in this case they picked 32bit. Not sure as to why they picked this one-- sometimes it is a bit soon to do it and they have technical cost issues where somebody complained or asked to kill off something -- other times its probably marketing that prompts it. This one seems less like a marketing one and more like some manager bitching to me.

Re:Actually, unlimited systems "you own or control

[Gilmoure]

Or that Ex-Developer's patched carbon version of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. *Sigh*. Looks like I'm down to having an Old Game system running at the house now.

Re:Powering your iMac during the download

[node 3]

Not all Macs are purchased at an Apple Store; some are purchased at Best Buy or at independent Apple authorized retailers.

100% irrelevant. Apple Stores will help you in their stores no matter where you bought your Mac. Also, third party stores will be able to give you access to a locally cached copy of Lion once you've purchased it.

You keep acting like this is a common situation. It's contrived, solely to find some reason to bitch about something that won't be a problem for most people.

And for those whom it is a problem, that's the way their life is. They can't watch Netflix, they can't buy TV shows from iTunes or watch Hulu, or buy games on Steam. Even YouTube is a pain. And OS updates that can exceed 1GB? Same issue. It's not like they are exactly the sort of people who are champing a the bit for the latest and greatest anyway. They can make for for a few weeks until physical media is available, assuming they can't avail themselves of the many other options until then.

Apple has multiple solutions for the small minority who will have problems. You are exaggerating the issue.

Re:Bye bye Mac Books...

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Fuck functionality, fuck price, fuck everything else but apple. What's so hard to understand here>?

Dell comes with Windows.

Apple went from one button to none

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

I, for one hate Apple's mouse, I don't know why they feel they needed to be different and not have separate right and left click buttons.

Apple have since day one insisted that everything in their computers be usable with single-button mice. Why? Because of user friendliness towards people who aren't comfortable with computers. This may seem quaint to you and me, but "Which of the two buttons do I click?" is a significant stumbling point for a lot of people. (And it wouldn't seem so quaint if you spent some time with disabled people with limited finger dexterity; some of them can operate a one button mouse, but not a two button mouse!)

So Apple's UI guidelines insist that every application must expose all of its functionality to users with one-button mice, and Apple's shipped one-button mice on their computers for nearly forever. In fact, you could say they've never switched to multi-button mice; they came up with what's effectively a "no button" mouse with software-configured behavior on a per-user basis, so that you and grandma can share the same mouse, but she doesn't have to be confused by multiple buttons just because you want it that way.

Re:Apple went from one button to none

[prockcore]

Apple have since day one insisted that everything in their computers be usable with single-button mice. Why? Because of user friendliness towards people who aren't comfortable with computers.

As a result Apple brought the world the double-click.. which is far more confusing to users than a second button.

Re:Apple went from one button to none

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

Apple have since day one insisted that everything in their computers be usable with single-button mice. Why? Because of user friendliness towards people who aren't comfortable with computers.

As a result Apple brought the world the double-click.. which is far more confusing to users than a second button.

Quick googling finds what the Apple guidelines say about double-clicking: "Because not everyone is physically able to perform a double click, it should never be the only way to perform an action."

Does not replace

[SuperKendall]

it "replaces" the already present ability to pull a window full-scree

The green full-screen button that simply expands the window is already there.

I agree that the full-screen mode not making use of the other screens is annoying, I expect we'll see something to make use of the extra space at some point, from Apple or someone else.

Modal interfaces for desktops are a step (a very big one) backwards.

Sorry but I don't see it. It's not like the stop other things from running, and it truly does maximize use of space in a way that nothing else does. I really like having coding documentation open in a full screen space, I jump to that, do some reading, then jump back out into a multi-widnowed space.

Or sometimes when coding, it's nice to focus all editing space on just that and then again jump back to a multi-windowed view.

Re:Does not replace

[fyngyrz]

The green full-screen button that simply expands the window is already there.

The green button is there, but that's not what it does. To make a window full screen, you often have to resort to pulling it there. For instance, open a smaller than full screen jpeg with preview. Click the green button. Doesn't go fullscreen. Now resize the jpeg from the corner. Tap the green button a couple times to see what it does.

I really like having coding documentation open in a full screen space, I jump to that, do some reading, then jump back out into a multi-widnowed space.

CMD-tab plus arranging the windows for each app how you want them. Already there; not added to or enhanced by modal operation. Also, doesn't screw up my other monitors. Also fully capable of editing full screen on monitor one, compiling and seeing results on monitor two, while testing the app on monitor three.

Sorry, Lion's modal UI is hopeless borkage.

Re:Does not replace

[SuperKendall]

The green button is there, but that's not what it does.

If that is your definition, then there was never a full-screen option to "replace".

I am perfectly aware of what the full-screen button does, it expands the window to the maximum possible dimension that make sense. You used the example of a JPEG image because it doesn't fill the sides of the screen. What would be the use? You can do it now with the real "full screen" feature, but the other way keeps windows visible that do not need to be hidden.

Try it with any text editor, the box fills the entire screen because that makes sense.

CMD-tab plus arranging the windows for each app how you want them. Already there; not added to or enhanced by modal operation.

Yes, it is enhanced. In Xcode I really like having documentation full screen in a separate space, with the rest of the application windows not full screen in their own space.

Full screen does not "screw up" your other monitor, each full-screen app gets put into it's own Space, leaving your original space alone, arranged across two screens.

Sorry, Lion's modal UI is hopeless borkage.

So I guess people who actually like it don't count for anything, nor does the fact that you are not right about some fundamental aspects of use...

I've been using it for a month or so, have you?

Re:Does not replace

[fyngyrz]

You used the example of a JPEG image because it doesn't fill the sides of the screen. What would be the use?

A zoomed view, for one thing, or a window in which a zoomed view has some room to expand. You seriously can't imagine a use for a window with some extra room in it? Did you always color within the lines as a kid? I *routinely* expand windows (by dragging) to full screen so that when I zoom, I have working area immediately available (and also so that distractions are covered -- the very things that modal operation duplicates to no point.)

In Xcode I really like having documentation full screen in a separate space, with the rest of the application windows not full screen in their own space.

So do I, and it is already available to me in two different forms. On a single monitor, open the doc (or the source code, etc.) in its own window (just double-click on it in the file list on XCode), then use CMD-tick to switch which window has focus within XCode. On multiple monitors, simply make the window you want full screen on one monitor, and the other window on another monitor. Again, change focus using CMD-tick. Everything works fine. No need for explicit modal operation. This probably works or worked with spaces as well, but I never had a need for them -- multiple monitors allow me to have everything on its own live surface at all times -- so can't really say.

So I guess people who actually like it don't count for anything

If you say so -- I certainly didn't say anything of the kind. My feeling, however, is that if you like this, you probably were simply unaware of the tools that were already available that accomplish the same useful aspects (hiding things that are irrelevant for the moment, providing large work areas and clean focus) without screwing up other things, like multiple monitor support. My criticism is directed at Apple, not the end users.

I've been using it for a month or so, have you?

No. I have PPC apps that I am unwilling to abandon my investment in; they still work fine and continue to provide ROI, which Lion would destroy. So presently, I have no plans to upgrade. My concern is as a developer targeting 10.5 and beyond, as a stockholder and someone who would prefer to see OSX continue to increase in power, rather than become in any way "IOS-like." And to see IOS do likewise; it's a baby OS and it badly needs more capabilities.

If you're using the release version of Lion, would you care to report on what happens to the windows on your other monitors when you enter modal operation? I've only gotten that from multiple, consistent reports on the major blogs; be nice to hear a user report on the actual release version behaviors. According to the press thus far, the other monitors dim and become unusable. Is that what happens with the release version? Also, BTW, I don't have two monitors. I have six. Soon to become eight, as soon as I can get the desk re-arranged to accommodate them.

Re:Does not replace

[stewbacca]

You have PPC apps...good for you. Don't upgrade. Most people don't have PPC apps, so Apple sees little of the precious ROI you mention.

Walled Garden

[hercubus]

I hope with this version the garden wall is a lot higher; I'm tired of the riffraff poking their noses over the wall and complaining about the wall, the garden, the garden's occupants, their own wallet, their holey pants, etcetera

New macs get it free

[Aphonia]

There is a free download (that isn't exactly working) for those who purchased after June 6, 2011.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/ [apple.com]

Re:Powering your iMac during the download

[tepples]

Apple Stores will help you in their stores no matter where you bought your Mac.

True, but also irrelevant. A lot of people such as myself bought a Mac online or at a third-party store precisely because there is no Apple Store near them. For example, even in a city of 200,000 where broadband is widespread and which has two Best Buy stores and one independent full-line Mac dealer (Fort Wayne, Indiana), the nearest Apple Stores are 100 miles away in Mishawaka and Indianapolis.

You keep acting like this is a common situation.

I have cable myself, but my mom only very recently got DSL when it became available in her part of the country. Her Windows PC was way behind on software updates when I took a look at it, which I guessed had something to do with Internet connection or lack thereof. I was operating on the principle that whatever happens to a close relative is probably happening to a lot of other people.

They can make for for a few weeks until physical media is available

And until such physical install media becomes available, I'm considering this a sneak preview rather than a release. If we can accept that this is a sneak preview, I'll stop whining.

Re:"Old white macbook"

[UnknowingFool]

The only MacBooks that cannot run Lion are the first MacBooks which had an Intel Core Duo (early 2006). All other MacBooks are compatible.

Re:Actually, unlimited systems "you own or control

[Dynedain]

Parallels can fire up Pre-Lion virtual machines, even "Classic" (OS9) images.

Re:Powering your iMac during the download

[Palshife]

Coffee shop, friend's house, public library, place of employment. Come on. You're telling me there's no access to fast internet where you are? Get creative.

Yep, my mom had the same problem

[sean.peters]

And she still doesn't have DSL. So I brought her computer to the library and downloaded all her Windows Updates for free.

So if you're one of those folks who 1) lives in an area not served by broadband, and 2) you have no way to bring any of your computers to where the broadband is... well, yeah, I guess you're screwed. But that does not amount to very many people.

Re:Powering your iMac during the download

[J. J. Ramsey]

"And for those whom it is a problem, that's the way their life is. They can't watch Netflix, they can't buy TV shows from iTunes or watch Hulu, or buy games on Steam. Even YouTube is a pain."

That's not true. My connection is fast enough that I can handle Netflix streaming, YouTube, and Hulu just fine, but a 4 GB download still takes a few hours.

Re:Powering your iMac during the download

[node 3]

"And for those whom it is a problem, that's the way their life is. They can't watch Netflix, they can't buy TV shows from iTunes or watch Hulu, or buy games on Steam. Even YouTube is a pain."

That's not true. My connection is fast enough that I can handle Netflix streaming, YouTube, and Hulu just fine, but a 4 GB download still takes a few hours.

Taking "a few hours" does not constitute a problem.

Re:Powering your iMac during the download

[node 3]

Apple Stores will help you in their stores no matter where you bought your Mac.

True, but also irrelevant. A lot of people such as myself bought a Mac online or at a third-party store precisely because there is no Apple Store near them. For example, even in a city of 200,000 where broadband is widespread and which has two Best Buy stores and one independent full-line Mac dealer (Fort Wayne, Indiana), the nearest Apple Stores are 100 miles away in Mishawaka and Indianapolis.

Call your "full-line Mac dealer" in Fort Wayne, and ask them if they will help you acquire Lion. I bet they will.

You keep acting like there are no options here. There are plenty.

You keep acting like this is a common situation.

I have cable myself, but my mom only very recently got DSL when it became available in her part of the country. Her Windows PC was way behind on software updates when I took a look at it, which I guessed had something to do with Internet connection or lack thereof. I was operating on the principle that whatever happens to a close relative is probably happening to a lot of other people.

AND THEIR ARE OPTIONS FOR THESE PEOPLE. You keep acting like if your internet connection is slow, you can't get Lion!

They can make for for a few weeks until physical media is available

And until such physical install media becomes available, I'm considering this a sneak preview rather than a release. If we can accept that this is a sneak preview, I'll stop whining.

Only if you accept the that it's a "sneak preview" for a small percentage of people, the rest of us being quite capable of downloading it, going to an Apple Store (or other establishment) to download it, going to a friend's house, etc.

The number of people who will have to wait for the USB offering is very small. And for them, internet life kinda sucks anyway, so having to wait for things is *NORMAL* to them.

Why do you insist on acting like this is going to be even remotely common?

Re:about time for the mini to get a REAL VIDEO CAR

[vgerclover]

Now you've made me imagine a Toyota Prius being catapulted out of a carrier. Thank you.

If your monitor breaks

[tepples]

First, if the monitor in a MacBook or iMac breaks, you lose use of the computer while it's in the repair shop.

Second, for a home theater PC, you don't want a built-in monitor because you'll probably be using a monitor bigger than the one in a 27" iMac. So I'll just treat this as a price hike of the Mac mini to $679.

Re:If your monitor breaks

[smash]

If you want a "home theatre pc" then you're in the market for an AppleTV, looking at apple's lineup. PCs suck in that role due to fan noise, ventilation requirements, etc. I'm not saying the mini can't do it, but in the home theatre role (which i used to use my mini) i can count the number of times I've used physical disks this year on one hand.

Re:If your monitor breaks

[tepples]

If you want a "home theatre pc" then you're in the market for an AppleTV

Which can't play DVDs nor games. Please see also my reply to CharlyFoxtrot.

Re:If your monitor breaks

[node 3]

I think you misunderstand (which is far too common).

You said, "Specifically, the Mac mini is the only Mac under $2,400 that doesn't have a built-in monitor." You say that it's cheap as though that's a bad thing.

As for your issues with built-in monitors, you are, as usual, exaggerating an issue. Most people just simply aren't having these horrible problems that you seem to think are so critical.

No apps on Apple TV 2

[tepples]

They want you to use the AppleTV 2 instead and stream media

Not all "media" is passively viewed video. Macs have more games than Apple TV 2, which has no games at all unless Apple plans to add support for apps on Apple TV 2 to iOS 5.

ssd

[reiisi]

Doesn't answer the rest of your complaints, but being able to BTO with a solid state drive and a regular notebook grade HD probably answers most of the uses in this form factor better than a 7200 rpm drive.

Unknown Mac's unknown MAC

[tepples]

Coffee shop

Often no public AC outlets. I wrote about this in another comment, so I won't repeat the details here.

public library

I've never tried bringing a desktop computer and monitor into a public library to use its Internet connection. Do you think they'd allow it, or would security throw me out?

place of employment

Unknown Mac's unknown MAC is firewalled.

That leaves "friend's house", as long as the friend doesn't also live in cap-ville, or waiting for the general availability of Lion on USB in a few weeks.

Re:Unknown Mac's unknown MAC

[Palshife]

Fine. It's a sneak preview. That I'm posting from right now. Enjoy your excuses for paying $70 for a $30 product.

Re:Unknown Mac's unknown MAC

[bryan1945]

Or wait a few weeks and order the USB install drive from the Apple store. If you're so impatient, do one of the silly things people have suggested. Stop whining.

Re:Unknown Mac's unknown MAC

[tepples]

Stop whining.

I had already conceded days ago.

Re:about time for the mini to get a REAL VIDEO CAR

[Guy Harris]

It's like complaining the Toyota Prius can't go 0 to 60 in 3 secs and can't carry 8 people.

I think that the only vehicles that'd fit into those specs are called airplanes.

This humble family minivan is claimed to do it in 2.8 seconds, although whether it'd hold 8 people is another matter....

Does Lion support resume?

[tepples]

Taking "a few hours" does not constitute a problem.

Unless the public Wi-Fi provider cuts the download after the one-hour session expires. Does Apple's Lion downloader support resuming an incomplete download?

Re:Does Lion support resume?

[Yer Mom]

Yes, App Store downloads (which is what Lion is) can be paused and resumed, and will auto-resume if the connection goes down then comes back. Trust me, with my quality phone line, I've already researched this :)

Not sure what will happen if it suddenly finds some wireless provider's login page appearing when it expects to find the App Store server, but hopefully Apple thought of that...

Re:Does Lion support resume?

[node 3]

Taking "a few hours" does not constitute a problem.

Unless the public Wi-Fi provider cuts the download after the one-hour session expires. Does Apple's Lion downloader support resuming an incomplete download?

Yes, and this is an extremely contrived scenario. For this to come to play, someone would have to:

1. Have a 64-bit intel Mac.
2. Not have at least a 256kbps dsl line.
3. Have a *very* low data cap, with no way to extend it.
4. Not have access to an Apple Store, or one of the many Apple resellers willing to help you.
5. Not have access to a friend or family's high speed internet connection.
6. Not have access to a free (or even paid, at a reasonable price) WiFi connection capable of delivering Lion in a reasonable amount of time.
7. Want Lion *now*, and be unhappy about waiting a few weeks for a flash drive from Apple.

The set of people for which every one of these things is true is very, *very* small. And for the people in this set, they are very used to finding their slow internet connection being an issue. They know they can't do things like enjoy netflix, youtube, hulu, steam. They know that when they look at software or video downloads, they generally have to give it a pass, or leave the connection running for hours. Some software updates can add up to over 1GB! That's 1/4 of Lion, for a *software update*!

It's not like everything was fine and rosy, then all of a sudden, Lion! These people have option after option after option. There aren't going to be many people for whom at least *one* of those options won't work, and for that very small number, Apple is manufacturing flash drives which will begin arriving in stores in mere *weeks*. The fact that Lion is out now is a testament to how much more quickly digital downloads can be made available than physical objects.

So, everyone is covered, and those that have to wait a few weeks are rare and used to it. The most absurd thing here is that you aren't even one of them, but you are bitching about this as though it's some big deal. Don't you find it odd that the only people complaining about this are the people for whom it doesn't apply? Don't you think that if this was a big deal, there would be people complaining who are *actually* affected by it?

That should clue you in to the fact that your view of reality is highly distorted. You are making claims based on a theory, while completely ignoring what reality has to say when your theory is being put to the test.

Re:Does Lion support resume?

[bryan1945]

Or, maybe, you could order the USB install drive from the Apple store?

The last time Apple cut something out

[tepples]

The last time Apple cut out a major external interface (ADB and floppy drives), it made sure that the replacement (USB and optical drives) was available to all customers. The replacement of SCSI with FireWire did take slightly longer, I'll admit. You claim that the replacement for optical drives is high-speed Internet access, despite high-speed Internet access not being available to all customers. I can see three ways this could go:

1. Apple is ready to invest in the last mile, a process analogous to rural electrification.
2. Apple wants to replace optical drives with carrying an iMac or Mac mini to an Apple Store or independent Apple dealer to use the Internet there.
3. Apple wants to phase out iMac and Mac mini in favor of MacBook computers, which can be used at public libraries or restaurants.

Of these, which is the most likely direction that Apple wants to head?

also OPEN CL is a big NON gameing push for

[Joe_Dragon]

also OPEN CL is a big NON gameing push for video cards now days as well.

Re:Walled Garden

[shutdown -p now]

Um, this is an OS X story, not an iOS story. So it's:

blah blah Apple blah blah blah Linux on the desktop blah blah blah slashdot.

Re:Actually, unlimited systems "you own or control

[Slur]

Yes, you only need to download once, then you can put it on a USB stick or a DVD to install on other Macs. Apple doesn't prevent this, you might just need your iTunes account password. But don't necessarily quote me on that till I've tested it out... At the moment I just have the developer GM installed.

Re:Actually, unlimited systems "you own or control

[Orffen]

I run SMAC on my Mac (hah!) using Wineskin. I'm running the GOG.com version.

The only issue I have is with mouse support in the newer engines - try 1.3.12 or older to get around it.

Re:about time for the mini to get a REAL VIDEO CAR

[tibit]

It won't do it with 8 people in it. Its mass would go up by at least 30%, that's enough to push it over 3 seconds. It's a fairly barebones, lightened-up design, that makes it very sensitive to loading.

Desktops still exist

[tepples]

Nor am I aware of a jurisdiction that outlaws desktops. And I don't think you meant that current owners of a Mac mini or iMac should buy a MacBook to get Lion. The net result is that not every Mac that runs Snow Leopard is a MacBook. So right now the Lion preview is A. for Mac owners behind cable, DSL, or FTTH connections and B. for MacBook owners.

I concede

[tepples]

Not have access to an Apple Store, or one of the many Apple resellers willing to help you.

If the Apple resellers are in fact willing to help update a 64-bit Intel iMac or Mac mini, then I'll concede.

We've upped our list price, now...

[tepples]

I disagree with you that most don't use the optical drive. But I agree with you that the omission is not a critical flaw; it just ups the list price to $679.

Re:penis

[zach_the_lizard]

The point is that 'gay' doesn't always mean 'homosexual.' It's a generic insult. Being called a bitch doesn't mean that the person literally thinks you're a female dog. You must have missed the second half of my post.

Re:penis

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

The point is that 'gay' doesn't always mean 'homosexual.'. You must have missed the second half of my post..

You must have missed the post that kicked this all off.

It's a generic insult.

Speaking of missing second halves of posts....

Re:penis

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Wrong.

Re:Powering your iMac during the download

[bryan1945]

Or wait a few weeks and order the USB install flash drive from the Apple store.
How many times do I have to repeat this?

Re:Powering your iMac during the download

[bryan1945]

Or wait a few weeks and order the USB install drive from the Apple store.

Re:Powering your iMac during the download

[tepples]

How many times do I have to repeat this?

Once, if you'll search for my concession several days ago.