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Can a Playground Be Too Safe?
Hugh Pickens writes "John Tierney writes that the old 10-foot-high jungle gyms and slides disappeared from most American playgrounds across the country in recent decades because of parental concerns, federal guidelines, new safety standards set by manufacturers and — the most frequently cited factor — fear of lawsuits. But today some researchers question the value of safety-first playgrounds. Even if children do suffer fewer physical injuries — and the evidence for that is debatable — critics say that these playgrounds may stunt emotional development, leaving children with anxieties and fears that are ultimately worse than a broken bone. 'Climbing equipment needs to be high enough, or else it will be too boring in the long run,' says professor Ellen Sandseter. 'Children approach thrills and risks in a progressive manner, and very few children would try to climb to the highest point for the first time they climb. The best thing is to let children encounter these challenges from an early age, and they will then progressively learn to master them through their play over the years.' After observing children on playgrounds in Norway, England and Australia, Dr. Sandseter identified six categories of risky play, although fear of litigation led New York City officials to remove seesaws, merry-go-rounds and the ropes that young Tarzans used to swing from one platform to another."
is far broader than our playgrounds.
It's common sense
Mom's basement is perfectly safe, and I grew up JUST FINE.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
It's not the equipment, the sandpit, or the tether-ball. It's the other children. Now, if we could only remove the children then we'd have safe playgrounds.
It's mostly fear of lawsuits, and that's what's stupid. I did some pretty incredibly stupid shit as kid, but I'm glad I did them and I, nor anyone else really, ever got that seriously injured. But it teaches you to be careful. If todays kids never get to experience that, how are they supposed to be responsible adults? It's the same with women. If the girl didn't have some fun when she was a teenager, she will regret it later and try it when shes 30-40 years old, and usually married. That's why you should be able to experience stupid things when it's allowed and ok, so that you can learn from it.
Google+ vs. Facebook, and why Google+ will fail
The whole risk=reward philosophy is just a way for people who are comfortable and have never needed to take any risks to push others to do so, so they can leech off them. Tell people that something will make them a man and they'll run into the middle of a battlefield.
A society's advance is measured by risk reduction, so stuff can be achieved without a large proportion of people being harmed in the process.
I wonder what the kids born in the 2000s will be like when they grow up? A new counter-culture, if Gen Y is any indication.
Better'd cut down all the trees too, just to be safe. Wouldn't want a kid climbing one of those and falling out!
Generations are being deprived of the chance to learn to deal with the process of overcoming their fears?
In a society whose political and media culture centers around obscuring debate by preying on fear?
Whodathunk?
Like most of Tierney's articles, this one is iconoclastic but has no evidence to back it up. The "study" he cites is just one psychologist's opinion, with no actual data behind it.
Speaking for myself, I do think I'm more well-adjusted psychologically as a result of all the dangerous stuff I did as a little kid, but given the medical bills and the permanent scars, I can't honestly say it was worth it overall.
At the park nearest my house they recently put in a new playground. Thankfully it still has some "unsafe" equipment. My oldest (almost 3) wanted to swing on the big swings a couple of weeks ago. So I put him on and started pushing him. Eventually he wanted me to get on the swing next to him. When we were both swinging he fell of and did a nice face plant from falling forward off the swing. He had a few little scrapes and a mouth full of sand, he cried a bit but I told him he was ok. He then went and got right back on the swing. He has also fallen off slides and rope things (a cargo net like structure) and still goes back. There is an older "safe" playground at this park but he never want to go there.
Time to offend someone
I'm tired of these stupid arguments that our kiddies need to be overly protected.
If a kid learns that falling off a high place hurts, he'll be less likely to do so in the future. Its how people learn. Sure I'm not saying let kids play in a forest alone or something, but playing in a proper environment is how they learn skills (+social skills), and most importantly how they can become healthy instead of spending the day on the sofa in safety playing CoD or whatever.
The only thing that will happen is that children will get bored at the playground and move risky play to other locations which are even more unsafe. In the long run injuries may increase, but because the children get injured someplace else there's less risk of a lawsuit.
On a similar note, the Atlantic recently ran this article about how
coddling children robs them of an important part of childhood.
When a parent says something like that they want their child to "just be a kid for one more year," that's just selfishness on their part. It isn't about letting the kid enjoy childhood, its about the parent holding their child's development back in order for the parent to take pleasure in the kid's innocence.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
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I work with children, and sometimes they get sent home with bruises and scraped knees just because they were playing so vigorously. Most of the children I've seen will cry for a little bit, accept a bandage, then will be eager to do the same thing again.
Parents though, well, some of them will assume that the supervisors were negligent or abusive. Not all of them, not even many of them, since they tend to know how their kids play. But it is the ones that wrap their child in a protective coccoon that you have to be petrified of. Even those parents aren't so bad once they get to know you, to trust you, but a lot of them don't even bother.
The unfortunate truth is that those overly protective parents count for a lot because the consequences are many. Lawsuits is the often cited one, but losing your job or your license is an even bigger and more real concern. So all of the children suffer.
My 5 year old son climbed a tree the other day. I stood at the bottom and watched as he inched his way up a cedar. It takes great control to be able to watch and not say anything. To let them assess the relative risk and take care getting up and down. They can do it. It will definitely exercise your heart.
I let my children climb up on the counters. There is one rule though. If you climb up, you get to climb down. Both of my children have fallen. Both are still willing to climb. Both show respect for where they are when they are climbing. Both have demonstrate the ability to assess when they shouldn't climb.
That or the other crazy parents. I have been taken to task for letting my oldest (almost 3) play on all the equipment. He has fallen, spun around till he puked, and even gotten a little banged up, but he is no worse for wear. Hell it's not like he is jumping off the garage roof like I did when I was little, that was fun though.
Time to offend someone
My 3.5 year old broke her arm at the playground, and I was very proud of her. We made the whole thing, including the hospital trip all part of the fun.
It does seem that the playgrounds are becoming less fun, but I let my kid do all sorts of stupid things, so the way I see it, as an adult she'll be at an advantage over her peers.
Walking on the sidewalk is risky - you could get hit by an errant car. If you try to make anything perfectly safe, you will FAIL. The trick is to identify a reasonable amount of risk and allow that. I agree that playgrounds should have rubber padding, but I see no reason to eliminate the ability to hang from a metal bar.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
So, children with conditions that prevent them from climbing are just plain screwed? I always hate this kind of logic. Kids will make a challenge out of anything, and I'd rather have playgrounds that let kids *PLAY* rather than tackle challenges that I don't yet approve of as a parent. By this strange logic, we should build gauntlets of near certain death to make super kids.
Came across this TED presentation last year:
http://www.ted.com/talks/gever_tulley_on_5_dangerous_things_for_kids.html
Definitely an interesting take on this whole issue of child safety regulations. The book (written by the presenter in the video above, Gever Tully) entitled "50 Dangerous Things (You should let your kids do)" is a really nice read.
jeff
Treating kids like pussies turns them into pussies.
"The kid who swallows too many marbles doesn't live to have kids of his own."
Just as applicable now as it was then.
they just built a brand new playground buy us. they did add a really nice rubbery type of padding on the ground, but they have a 15ft high slide and a really cool rock wall and crazy jungle gym type things. plenty of places for kids to fall to their "death", just like when I was a kid. you know what ... that playground is always packed. Not like "geeze there are so many people I can't move" packed, but there are always people there with the kids.
It's a really cool place.
Peanut allergies are a very real thing. That said, I don't agree with schools banning PB&J from the cafeteria because 1 kid has an allergy. There are other ways to handle that kind of thing, like teach the kid to stay away from peanuts.
lol your idea you have to have limits on it of course cause kids sometimes dont know when what they do is too much risk.YA i done some crazy stuff as a kid but i look back going maybe i was more lucky then i thought
Because it's easier for parents to drop their kids in front of the idiot box babysitter and berate them if they "eat too much". Else they'd have to be parenting. Imagine that!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
we must protect our children from being overprotected!
Just another reason NYC kids are growing up to be wussies.
With too much padding in safety equipment, and the lack of old-school jungle gyms, etc, I believe that kids (and adults) aren't developing the bone strength that us old timers have (OK, I'm in my late 30's). That, or they're not getting enough calcium.
"After observing children on playgrounds in Norway, England and Australia..." Did anyone else picture a weird guy in a lab coat with a clipboard standing around a jungle gym?
It's *easy* to yell and scream and do things to "protect" a child from scraped knees, cell phones, peanuts, etc and it has the added benefit of making parents feel like they've actively done something to protect their kids. It's also easy to give children junk food rather than proper meals, and to let them sit in front of a TV instead of taking them to sports teams, or better yet, go out for a run with them. Laziness is the problem. And friend, have we got a lot of it.
Playgrounds shouldn't be risk free, but to be honest, jungle gyms were death machines. Those things probably broke more bones in the 70's and 80's than the Japanese and Italian mafia combined did.
I know someone is gonna mod me down for this but frankly I think we've turned into a nation of pussies. We don't allow kids to fall off bikes, break their arms, or generally be kids. Parents neurotically try to be friends to their kids instead of parents. When I was growing up my mother made us go cut the switch that she would then use on us. We never talked back to her after that. Kids today seem ..... entitled.
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Try to prevent reduce any permanent damage (e.g. remove sharp edges or constructions in which you easily get caught), but give the children the possibility to fall down onto a safe ground (sand) so that they feel and learn to estimate whats going on. Its better that they learn gradually how painful something is than they learn this spontaneously at some point when they are too old.
In that sense, i would put up many things which have a more or less save falling height. Put some higher things but make the access in a way that only better trained climbers can get up. (e.g. make a 5+ climbing wall in the ground, which gets down to a 2 above 2m)
the supposed effects of Nanny-statism. It's the American culture of personal fear and litigiousness that produces some of the most severe anti-social effects on society. Keep the kids indoors hopped-up on gory, fear-mongering crap coming out of the TV.
When did Slashdot become so behind?
Everything is regurgitated LifeHacker and Gizmodo.
Miss my 2005 Slashdot.
It's not the equipment, the sandpit, or the tether-ball. It's the other children. Now, if we could only remove the children then we'd have safe playgrounds.
I guess that depends on the playground. Some kids fear the bully but other kids fear the drug pusher. Location Location Location
"We are just a war away from Amerikastan. When god vs god the undoing of man." Dave Mustaine
I just Google+ friended you for that statement. There are so many activities, such as the great examples you gave, that the author could rewrite this study substituting for the word 'playground.' One of the bees in my bonnet these days is how diving boards are being phased out at public swimming pools.
It started with phasing out high-dives. Now low-dives are also an endangered animal. New public pools are built shallow with water slides instead of diving boards. From the first to the 10,000th time a kid slides down a waterslide, they've developed exactly zero skills at doing anything. It's passive entertainment. There's no sense of performance or challenge. With a diving board, there are a whole host of dynamics a child can attempt to master. Our society is taking that structure away from children in so many areas.
If you watched the 2008 Beijing Olympics, you might have seen the Chinese divers dominate in all categories. American children might have seen that and said, "Mommy, I want to become a diver and win a gold medal at the Olympics." To which an honest parent would have to say, "Unfortunately, you live in America and aren't permitted to engage in that activity. Perhaps if we move to a dangerous country like China you'll have that option in life."
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
There have been two playgrounds that I remember fondly, each of which had it's own risks. The first was a collection of slides and other things around a 15ft tall truncated scalable pyramid. How no one went rolling down that thing astounds me, but we loved it, then one day we got to watch them tearing the whole thing up.
The second one was at my elementary school. They had this whole setup that I didn't realize until a decade later was in the shape of a sailing ship. Dragon figurehead, triangular tire swings representing sails, a three level tire pyramid for a mast, and an aft was in the shape of the standard high rear, with a slide in place of the captain's cabin. There were also rope swings, wire bridges, and enough random stuff you could make up hundreds of games.
For the risks: well, i admit to having jumped off the second level of the aft portion a few times, and you could easily fall through the inner second level of the tire pyramid to the level below, and just the general mayhem that kids can cause.
That one has been replaced by a prefabricated collection of metal and plastic, i'm sure it's durable, but everything's locked in place, can't hide anywhere, and it doesn't have as much character/versatility as the old set. I miss the old one.
When I was a kid if some kid fell off the monkey bars and hurt him or her self no one even though of suing the city. It was accepted that the parents knew the risks and dangers of the playground equipment and as long as an accident didn't happen because of failure to maintain the playground legal action was the last thing anyone thought of. Today, you see so many legal sharks advertising on TV. We've been brainwashed that if we have an accident it's ALWAYS someone else's fault and we HAVE to sue them.
When my twin daughters were about 8 years old we built them a tree house with a pulley slide between trees. This was a bit higher than the usual monkey bars, but any fall would be on grass not concrete. They loved climbing the ladder to the tree house and hanging from the pulley sled as it rolled down the wire to the lower tree, then jumping off at the end of the ride. No one ever got hurt either. The tree house didn't last long, the tree was torn down by Hurricane Wilma.
You child isn't safe locked in his room! When my daughter was born last year I learned that is a miracle the human race has survived as long as it has. Apparently blankets, stuffed animals, mobiles, cats, sleeping on your stomach, sleeping on your parents chest, sucking your thumb, crib bumpers (apparently you are supposed to let your baby crawl at top speed head first into the crib rails?), and even the bloody finish in your crib will kill you as an infant. If you dress them in the wrong PJs they will die! If you use the wrong laundry detergent they will die! If you nurse your child in a non-approved position she will die! If feed your baby formula she will die! If you don't feed her formula, she will die! I kid you not, these are the things that either myself or my sister-in-laws were told as pregnant woman, many of them coming directly from the doctor or hospital.
And just think, our parents played with lawn darts as kids and we didn't have car seats.
When a first time parents is repeatedly being told by credible sources that their children are going to die if they do or do not something, it is easy to get sucked into the FUD.
"C. Th. SÃrensen, a Danish landscape architect, noticed that children preferred to play everywhere but in the playgrounds that he built. In 1931, he imagined "A junk playground in which children could create and shape, dream and imagine a reality." Why not give children in the city the same chances for play as those in the country? His initial ideas started the adventure playground movement.
The first adventure playground opened in Emdrup, Denmark in 1943, during World War II. In 1946, Lady Allen of Hurtwood visited Emdrup from England and was impressed with "junk playgrounds." She brought the idea to London. These "junk playgrounds" became known as "adventure playgrounds." "
http://adventureplaygrounds.hampshire.edu/history.html
"The Adventure Playground at the Berkeley Marina was opened 31 years ago in 1979. It is a wonderfully unique outdoor facility where staff encourage children to play and build creatively. Come climb on the many unusual kid designed and built forts, boats, and towers. Ride the zip line or hammer, saw, and paint. By providing these low risk activities Adventure Playground creates opportunities for children to learn cooperation, meet physical challenges and gain self confidence. Pictures of a fort building project. The concept for Adventure Playgrounds originated in Europe after World War II, where a playground designer studied children playing in the "normal" asphalt and cement playgrounds. He found that they preferred playing in dirt and lumber from the post war rubble. He realized that children had the most fun designing and building their own equipment and manipulating their environment. The formula for Adventure Playgrounds includes Earth, fire, water, and lots of creative materials."
http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/contentdisplay.aspx?id=8656
And here's a song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQtwb3lQ_c0
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
I was on the swings one day with a bunch of children, then noticed that they were all swinging higher a few of them were flipping their heads back for the thrill of it. So I decided to try it, and it was scary. Especially the vertigo from flipping my head back.
It made me realise how safe I, as an adult tend to act and how it takes all of the thrills out of life.
I've received that book for Christmas last year, most people saw it and were like, "why would you want that?" Then started flipping through the pages intrigued and almost immediately found something they did when they were a kid, be it chemistry or whatever.
I also have the book Free Range Kids which is also anti-coddling. Good stuff.
Reviewing just the first hour of video games.
Don't listen to this pitch from the health care profiteers.
They get 2k for every stitch, 5k for a tooth, and 10k for a cast.
I remember when I was 9 years old and hanging off the roof of the "second story" of a play structure house. Me and my friends would be terrified of letting go and falling down to the sand, but eventually we all made attempts. No one was ever injured, and it was a good 8 foot drop. The thrill and accomplishment of dropping off the roof of the house and surviving without injury was a great feeling. There was this other kid who always ate sand too... I don't know what happened to him.
I read a book about a year ago where they stated one of the original purposes of playground equipment was to help children learn risk-assessment. In other words, it wasn't meant to be 100% safe for all the kids - it was so kids could learn what risks they found acceptable and that sometimes when you fail there are moderately painful consequences. Now I have read stories about merry-go-round type playground equipment that didn't have the proper safety covering on them that caught a girls long hair and caused her injury - incidents like those are good reasons for lawsuits. However, when a child risks going down a slide face first and knocks out a tooth, then the parents and child should take personal responsibility for unsafe and risky use of the equipment. (Personally, I'm glad I had "dangerous" playground equipment when growing up - its so boring to be a kid now... no wonder so many stay inside playing video games.)
The musem's founder, Bob Cassilly, says that $1 of every $12 admission ticket goes to pay insurance, and he has posted a 'wall of shame' listing all the lawyers who have sued the museum.
There's an excellent and relevant article in the WSJ about it: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304159304575183463721620890.html?KEYWORDS=city+museum
I mean when I was younger on a nice day you would be playing sports, at the pool or exploring in the woods out back. Today it's too hot and kids stay in and play video games or watch TV. If I did that when I was little my parents would have yelled at me and said go out side, it is a nice day. I mean I am not against video games, by any means. I think they are quite fun, but play them at night or when it is raining. I mean the babying of kids has happened at more than just playgrounds, look at community pools. When I was younger the community pool by my parents house had two diving boards and a slide, now it has none of the three. I fell off that slide and got a concussion, but I was back on it the next week. Many pools that once had diving boards no longer have them for insurance reasons and fear of being sued. I think that is the real issue behind this, anytime someone get a little hurt it is the people's fault who own the property, so they make so that you can't get hurt.
Just because you are wrong and I called you out on it doesn't mean I am a Troll.
I have a 3yr old. Every out door toy we get is covered in safety crap. It all comes off. These aren't power tools, the kids not going to lose an arm. At worst he'll get a nasty bruise or cut. Those are important. Kids need to learn about sharp things, hot things, and that jumping off every object they can climb might not be a good idea. If you shelter a child into adulthood, you will send them into the world as a very ill-equipped adult. Which safety net is going to catch them when you're in the nursing home?
Our homeowner's association has a park across the street from my house. Some time back they pulled out the swing set and monkey bars and put in an attractive looking rubberized steel play structure with several platforms but kind of low to the ground and really nothing to climb on or hang from. The kids ignore it and climb the trees instead.
Life finds a way.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
There are other ways to handle that kind of thing, like teach the kid to stay away from peanuts.
Or maybe keep an emergency epi pen in the cafeteria. It's not hard to notice when someone's throat starts swelling up, then jab them with the pen.
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
I wasn't aware of the problem with exploding children, however fat they might get.
That's tricky grounds though. Kids have the natural tendency to explore and you know as well as I do that as soon as little Timmy goes "I can't touch peanuts" tiny Todd over there will go "Hmmm let's see what happens when I smack him in the face with my sandwich." Kids are just like that, "don't do it" means "do it, but don't let them see you" to many of them.
I am all for childhood development but that scenario plays closely on a grey area where I can't decide which step to take. Survival of the fittest is one thing but we're in a modern age where everyone should be given a fair opportunity.
Well don't you know you should accept your little fatty for who s/he is instead of judging her/him and hurting her/his little feelings when you suggest s/he go on a diet or get more exercise? You aren't supposed to care about such things as weight, it's harmful for their emotions!
If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
The negative effects are also observed in adult behaviour. people with cars with all safety features (airbags, crumple zones, abs, esp, a computer that detects weird behaviour and adjusts seats/seatbelts just before impact) drive less carefull than others with old "unsafe" cars. When sane grownup behaviour becomes worse with the safe features, i would not be surprised children becoming challenged to try to find a little danger no matter what. 'Hey running acros the street gets mu hartrate up with all the horns!'
If they can't get over falling that ten feet of the monkey bars, they're in for a huge shocker when the real world comes knocking.
I grew up on that "unsafe" equipment, and sure I got cuts, bruises, and I cried, but I can't imagine NOT experiencing that.
It's part of growing up, and we have enough immature adults running around as it is, lets not go out of our way to grow more.
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
As a 12 year old in the early 80s I broke my right arm while playing "tag" on a large climbing frame made of logs. Our variation of tag saw that the ground was "out of bounds"; I fell off when attempting to tag a friend and smashed my arm on a log on the way down. I had a cool cast -- which wasn't my first -- and I healed. Accidents like this by high risk lads shouldn't ruin it for all of the other children. Bring back the 10 ft climbing frames!
USA will be a nation of passive aggressive blobs.
Those of you that have children that have been injured already know this, but many don't. If you have a playground on your own property and your child gets injured bad enough to require an ambulance, you will have your life torn apart. You will be investigated by multiple family services divisions and will be investigated by the police.
Last week, one of my children injured themselves accidentally. We are not bad parents, and this is the first time in 12 years and 3 children that any of them has required emergency medical attention. Well, because he had to be taken by ambulance to the local hospital and then across state lines to a pediatric hospital, we have had 2 different states' family services divisions investigating us, both hospitals have had their own social arms investigating us, and my wife has been interrogated for 3 hours in an interrogation room at the local PD. The police have also came out to our house and served a search warrant to take photographs and perform more interrogation.
Now this was not some casual interview. They used interrogation tactics, full room monitoring, purposefully minced my wife's words, and every other technique used on criminals. All of this while struggling with the obvious grief of the accident.
If we had not been so cooperative, we'd certainly have had criminal charges filed against us. No matter if they were baseless or not. A kid breaking their arm in your backyard should not warrant this. Apparently, if you are unlucky enough that your kid gets injured -- no matter what the circumstances, you are punished for not somehow preventing it.
then they will simply look for them elsewhere like dodging cars, chasing dragons, and running from cops
Its the same with dirt. Childs wich play outside everywhere and wich come in contact with all kind of dirt, soil, germs get a normal immune system. If you try to protect your child from germs and whatnot it gets ill, because the immune-system gets not trained. Concerns over lawsuits and not the needs of childrens shape the playgrounds. Society is no longer aware of basic knowledge.
It's the same old responsilbity redirect that humans do.
My kids a horror, must be society. Don't look at my parenting, look at those unsafe playgrounds! It's not my responsiblity to teach my kids what to eat, it's YOURS that my kids ate a peanut. I don't like that they're using cell phones and ignoring me, it causes CANCER pay attention to me instead! I yell at my kids and have poor relationships that result in lots of fights, but it's the VIOLENT video games fault, I'm not a bad parent.
No one believes they're poor at taking care of their own child and that somehow their method of raising them could be at fault. We'll continue to see this everywhere we look as it becomes more acceptable by mainstream cultures.
Sounds like he's promoting survival of the fittest.
As if that has any role in modern society... How are we supposed to introduce our kids to dependancy on social services if they learn to overcome thier fears and succeed? Granted, this is at the expense of those "outliers" that pust to far and end up offing themselves....
As a horse owner, I see how various parents approach risk. Some parents hover, constantly watching their kids ride. (One barn in Silicon Valley caters to those parents. They have bleachers where the parents watch the kids take lessons.) The kids whose parents just drop them off do better with the horses. Kids do fall off, but it's better if they have their falls when they're 10 or 12 and on a pony.
An old friend of mine is the complete opposite of the overprotective mom. Her kids (one son, one daughter) grew up riding, and by their early teens, were competent to go off alone on horseback into the mountains. By their late teens, the kids were taking road trips of hundreds of miles on bicycles. Both kids are in their 20s now. The son is still in school, taking a year off for a startup right now. The daughter has graduated, and took a trip around the world alone, bicycling across whole countries, riding in a cattle roundup, surfing, kayaking, and coming home cheerful, uninjured, with hundreds of pictures. She works as a lifeguard (ocean rescue/climbing/EMT).
Interestingly, these kids are cautious. When encountering something new, they tend to hang back, carefully watch others, see how it's done and what goes wrong, then do it. They don't charge in blindly. It's not about being bold. It's about being competent.
ok the ONLY thing I can agree with.. See Saws... they are the devil, especially in the hands of older brothers.
I have assurance from armies of personal injury and product liability lawyers that no playground is ever safe.
I've noticed that there seem to be more bad drivers out on the roads since there were airbags, antilock brakes, and all the other so-called safety devices in the cars. I still get a little bit of a kick out seeing all the cars stuck off the side of the road in the winter after their drivers thought that antilock brakes would let them drive 10 MPH over the speed limit on slippery roads. (And I get more than a little nervous when these same bozos tailgate me on those slippery roads.)
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
I remember the jungle gym of my elementary playground. Looking at it from today's perspective, it was a frickin' deathtrap. Basically a 4x4 cube of metal bars, probably about 12-15 feet high. It's hard to imagine anyone surviving climbing in it; one slip and you're done for. Then again, in the seven years I went there (K-6), I don't think anyone got so much as a bruise. You had to respect that thing or die.
That's why my kids climb on top and on the outside of them where they're not supposed to in order to try to get some sense of adventure.
Yes, children can be protected too much. They grow up with the expectation that life doesn't hurt.
Nerf the planet.
Welcome to "Idiocracy".
Parents often feed junk food to their children because they eat junk food themselves. And they eat junk food because they can't cook. They can't cook because they have been brainwashed to think that cooking is hard and that you either are a master chef or you can't cook. The profit margins are much higher on junk food, tv dinners, and other "ready-to-eat" packages, so they are the ones most advertised. Cooking is something the country does not want you to do; it's hard, it requires expensive equipment, it must be done in a $50000 kitchen with granite countertops, and oh yes, it's very DANGEROUS! Hence the junk food consumption and obesity.
Risk Aversion is a personality trait. How does one react to loss/reward situations.
Would you enter into a fair coin toss that costs $1 and winners get $2 – or average payout of $1? In theory people should be indifferent – but they are not. They will tend to decline because the loss of the $1 tends to be greater than the gain of an extra $1.
Would you enter into a fair coin toss that costs $1 and winners get $2=3 – or average payout of $1.50? Logic dictates yes – but still many people decline.
Risk Reduction is a technical process. How can I make X safer? How much will to cost? Etc.
... hardly seems to have anyone playing in it. When my daughters were still small enough to want to play in playgrounds, they never wanted to go there very often. I thought the equipment there was a little on the boring side and there wasn't much of it. It was very padded so that, I suppose, you would be a little less likely to get a bad bump.
The playgrounds at the schools in the neighborhoods where I grew up were not much more than some swings and a set of metal pipes bolted together to form monkey bars , etc., and some other structures that I don't recall the name of any more. The sort of things that, nowadays, would probably make a school administrator run away screaming due the insurance liability exposure. But in those days, if a kid banged his head on the monkey bars he went home, got patched up, and learned a lesson ("Well, that's something I shouldn't do again".) I never once heard about anyone getting seriously hurt -- not anything worse than a bang on the head or a bloody nose -- from playing on that equipment.
Now we don't send our kid out on their bike unless they are wearing enough safety gear to pass the safety inspection at a motorcycle race even though the biggest risk to a kid on a bike is likely the housewife roaring down the street on her way to the supermarket with a cellphone glued to her ear and not anything that the kid would come in contact with should they fall.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Tort Reform
RUGBYRUGBYRUGBY
In an ironic duality: We as a nation no longer have a manned space program because it's too high and we may fall and hurt ourselves. This kinda thinking is pervasive on all levels and taking over our society. Play it safe - play it safe. We have forgotten how to take risks in this country. Taking risks is vital for our future, and is what made this a great country. Instead we have become a fearful bunch of whiners and pussies.
Why can anyone be charged for installing 3 meter high structures on a playground. Safety at a playground works normally as follows:
a) One parent or another person in charge observes what the "own" child does. Is it doing unsafe stuff (for its age) then that person in charge has to act.
b) If the kid is old enough to go to the playground by itself than it has to handle its own safety. Kids are capable of doing so. Parents who deny that, end up with children which cannot handle responsibilities.
What me personal concerns is the fact that the same illness is coming to Germany as well. The world gets redesigned to be save for the stupid and lazy. Instead of insisting on "think before act". Think of it in the US people got money for being too stupid to handle their coffee. Also I heard that they got money for putting a cat in an microwave. In a country not designed for the stupid, any judge would rule in both cases against the idiot.
And ah don't get me wrong this is not an US bashing statement. Even though in Germany spilling coffee is your problem, the design for the stupid principal also applies here.
Our local Montessori school actually wrapped their tree trunks in foam so the kids wouldn't get hurt if they ran into them. The kids adjusted by intentionally running into the trees to enjoy the bounce.
The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
I don't agree with schools banning PB&J from the cafeteria because 1 kid has an allergy. There are other ways to handle that kind of thing, like teach the kid to stay away from peanuts.
Why does this same ignorant argument always pop up whenever allergies are mentioned? Children with peanut allergies can suffer severe reactions from smelling peanuts. "Teach[ing] the kid to stay away from peanuts" doesn't really work unless that involves them eating lunch alone in the janitor's closet.
One of my children recently fell off the monkey bars at his school and broke his arm. The cost for the surgery and cast: over $15K. I have an excellent health insurance plan, but it only covers about 90%, so I still have to pay almost $2,000. I bet most people in this country would have to pay a lot more than that.
What should I do about it? I don't blame the school, so I can't sue them. I can't blame my child either. Should I tell him that he can't play on the monkey bars any more, because if he falls off again, then the family can't afford to go on vacation that year? That's crazy.
Maybe this is why we have a safety paranoia in this country. We literally can't afford to get hurt.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
Bring back the Astro City Rocket slide!
Buy them a skateboard and unleash them at the nearest skatepark. They'll learn quickly.
Last weekend I went to a local art festival and they had a giant picnic table that you could climb on. Perhaps 20 feet high? You needed a ladder to get up on it. It was installed on a grass median and had no fence. As I was on top with my 2 year old, an 8-year old kid ran by me, jumped off, and vanished over the side as he went down. For a moment I thought the kid was crazy! But shortly thereafter, 2 more boys joined in, only they flipped off of the top. It was quite impressive.
It turns out that they were 3 brothers with their dad. The father was a martial arts instructor and he was coaching his middle boy to use his ankles to cushion his landing, and telling his youngest how to roll if he falls too hard. They weren't crazy - they just saw this stuff growing up and learned to do it safely. The dad told the youngest one that he was only allowed to flip off if he could do one from a standing position. It isn't that they had no rules, they just weren't overly afraid. They had a coach, and they knew their own limitations and followed instructions.
Amazing what a trusting, confident parent can teach an 8-year old kid. I want to know what they are like in 15 years.
Even if a single dose is sufficient to halt the reaction, they're still going to be spending at least the rest of the day at the hospital, even if just for observation (biphasic anaphylaxis).
Also, anaphylaxis can result in less obvious symptoms than the classic bronchoconstriction everyone knows about, which happens about 70% of the time. Possible symptoms include fainting and cardiac arrhythmia, which most people wouldn't associate with an allergic reaction.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
The left the park benches for the pedophiles to sit on.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
There was a study done (which I can't find right now) that indicated that all the safety features had 0 impact on the overall safety of the roads. Ultimately a human is hard-wired with a specific risk tolerance, all you do by adding safety features is make them behave in a manner that will bring the risk tolerance back to where they are the most comfortable.
I can't find the exact study, but a related conversation:
http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/05/focus-on-safety-how-driving-rates-on-the-risk-thermostat.html
This sig is the express property of someone.
Great so what do we do with this non-information? Make playgrounds more dangerous? Most parents want their kids to be safe.
figure out exactly how much "damage" would be reasonable for a kid at say 4-6 7-9 10-12 and then when a lawsuit comes down the pike that is within those guidelines stamp the papers
DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE
and then go on to the next case
to expect that a kid of 5 should never get so much as a skinned knee is beyond stupid
now if the kid has her own mug in the local ER that is a problem
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
Ultimately a human is hard-wired with a specific risk tolerance, all you do by adding safety features is make them behave in a manner that will bring the risk tolerance back to where they are the most comfortable.
Which leads to the behaviours that the parent talked about. Those who "tolerate risk" more than others will revert to risky behaviours when the perceived risk is reduced. If you have anti-lock brakes, you will tend to assume that the dangers are less and the risks are similarly reduced. This leads to more risky behaviour because it takes more risk to return to your "most comfortable" levels.
In other words, nuts who would go 80 MPH except they don't feel safe about it on wet pavement will start going 80 MPH on wet pavement again because the ABS has reduced the risks to where they are once again comfortable taking them.
This totally ignores those who are totally ignorant about the levels of risk associated with any activity, who see "safety equipment" as an excuse to exceed truly safe operating limits.
I can tell you, it was a remarkable experience driving my new full-time all-wheel Subaru when I first got it. I assumed it would handle better in the snow than my old front-wheel drive car. Nope. I realized partway into a slide towards the outside of a curve that my new 4wd car had two wheels in back that weren't just following along for the ride, they were actively pushing me towards disaster, while in my front drive car the front wheels would pull me around the curve and the back would go where the front lead. Anyone who didn't find that out on a relatively uncrowded low-snow road would be in a world of hurt, and maybe take others with him, because he trusts the AWD to keep him safe instead of good driving.
I know parents who wouldn't allow their children to ride bicycles or do pretty much anything fun because HEALTHCARE IS BROKEN. One child cost you your month's paycheck or a mortgage payment and the less savings you have the more of a problem this becomes. Then there are major injuries that could cost you your house and all your savings. It also becomes a BIG reason to involve lawyers to help find funds for such costs-- and if you think insurance is a bunch of leeches the lawyers are vampires.
Sure, free healthcare means more people take risks; however, this is hardly a problem in nations who have it. I only mention it for those who jump to extremes instead of focusing on the point that we are at the other extreme -- where a normal childhood is being impacted by the way things have become. Fear of harm and lawsuits terrorize realistic people far more.
Pedophiles - your friends and family are the major risk not a guy on the park bench (unless he's your uncle.) Label them the mental cases they are; no time limits for locking up nutcases.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Go kids!!! Next the padded room...
What the hell. Wrap them in bubble wrap, duct tape and leave them in the living room until time to transfer them to the nursing room. I personally should have died, not unlike Hank and Dean of Venture Brothers every other month for the first 21 years of my life. Some may think the world would have been a better place. Never got my Darwin award despite septic blood poisoning, polio epidemics, car accidents, no bike helmets, playing with snakes, and unprotected sex. There,... I feel better. (mod me -1 tonight)
Please mod me 1 or troll. It's where the truth is these days, even on Slashdot. Beware the power of moderators everywh
Too Many LAWYERS. Too Many Politicians (most of whom are LAWYERS)
Remember: 99% of LAWYERS give the other 1% a bad name!!!
Also: Subluxations.
stunt emotional development, leaving ... anxieties and fears that are ultimately worse than a broken bone......, or else it will be too boring in the long run,' says professor Ellen Sandseter. ..... approach thrills and risks in a progressive manner, ..... The best thing is to let ... encounter these challenges from an early age, and they will then progressively learn to master them through their play over the years.'
That's why I don't use or allow sudo.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
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my wife recently got a 2nd degree burn on her arm & a 1st degree on her leg from a gel fire pot (story unto itself) - she was in the ER for ~3 hours, no diagnostics at all (don't need an x-ray for a burn), wasn't even seen by an MD (just a PA) & all they did to treat her was clean it w/some iced sterile saline, smear some silver sulfadide (sp?) cream & bandage.
the bill? $3,500!
I shudder to think what a broken bone runs these days (x-rays, cast, being seen by an actual DOCTOR)...
In fact many of us in the older generation were opposed to "safe" playgrounds when they were first introduced. It's about time common sense is coming around again.
Why reinvent the wheel? Humans are human and have been that way for thousands of years. We grow and mature by being challenged, even if that challenge means sometimes getting hurt (or killed).
Now, anybody want to listen to wisdom next time?
A member of parliament here in Australia was told he wan't allowed to change a light bulb in his office due to "OH&S issues". If he's allowed to change a bulb in his own home, surely these OH&S issues are just a method of limiting liability and reducing insurance premiums?
The problem with peanuts is you don't necessarily have to actually touch them, just be in a room that peanuts were in at some time in the past. There was a girl a few years back who died because her boyfriend ate a peanut sandwich in the morning, brushed his teeth, mouthwash, the whole bit, and kissed her that evening.
Forget how the poor girl's parents felt, how would you feel if you were that boy? If you killed your girlfriend because of a stupid sandwich?
Children by any reasonable definition of the term are insane.
They spend hours living in 'pretend world' and believe in irrational things like the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus and Jesus.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I remember jumping across a 5 foot gap to a metal bar 20 foot above the ground and spinning around and around the bar all the way to the ground. Doing that repeatedly for the entire lunch recess. The ground was hard packed gravel that was worse then concrete to land on if you slipped. Solution: Don't slip. I don't remember anyone getting maimed from that equipment.
I grew up in a traditional village in Malaysia during the early 80's. I know this is going to sound like one of those get off my lawn stories but my experiences while growing up there was very beneficial. At that time, my playground was the snake-infested semi-jungle around the village, the monitor lizard infested nearby river and the limestone quarry lake where they were blasting rocks with explosives. We kids will form roaming bands of 10 or more and play soldiers and communists (it was only 1 year after the communist insurgents surrendered), make our own "hand grenades" (got scars to prove it) out of firecracker fillings and spark plugs as detonators, even our own bamboo cannon filled with carbide. We will climb trees, slingshot monkeys, take a swim in the river and fish for tilapia and catfish in the quarry lake all the while explosives were going off nearby. On Eid days and the Chinese New Year, we will go to war with the kids from the neighbouring village, launching firecracker raids and ambushing the counterattack which will sometimes end up as fist fights. Looking back, I couldn't believe I lived that life now that I am living in a modern suburb where everything is gated and sanitised. Firecrackers are now banned in Malaysia. I look at my own two kids and see them playing video games, and the only time they can play outside is when I am supervising them out of fear of speeding cars or kidnappers (this is a real problem).
Now, everything revolves around the nuclear family. I could do all those risky things in the village because all the adults in the village will keep an eye on you, regardless if you are their kid or not. All adults may scold or cane any child in the village if they cross the line. Complaining about this to your parents will result in another round of caning. You could drop in on your friends house and their parents will serve you food and treat you like you are their own. Now get off my lawn.
There's also "The Dangerous Book for Boys" by Conn Iggulden & Hal Iggulden.
http://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Book-Boys-Conn-Iggulden/dp/0061243582
This book was in the news a couple of years ago.
My son (23 months) loves the "big kid" playgrounds. He is a cautious child, and he definitely follows the progressive learning model in how high he climbs. However, he is adopted, and we have to worry about social workers disapproving of how we raise him, and we could get in big trouble if he got hurt, so I am one of those mothers who tends to hover around her child on the playground. It's not because I am overprotective, but because society has gotten to the point that the state will take away your child if he cuts his finger, practically. In a civilization's progress, I think sometimes we start to go overboard, and that's when society becomes corrupt and a new, younger society takes over. Look at the cycle of civilization. Ancient powerhouses are no longer around. We don't just get more civilized, we go back and forth.
Well, we all live in a world with other people. The little ones need to learn to deal with the bullies, loudmouths and the weirdos.
As a kid in the 80's, we had really awesome playground equipment. All wood and metal and concrete. You'd get splinters and scrapes. The metal was rusty and corroded. But these were typically grand structures, several levels in height or sprawled out across a large area. As an adult I can really appreciate the creative design that went into them as they were made with kids in mind.
The equipment kids have now just sucks. It's all this plastic safe crap that offers no challenges and no thrills. Some shapeless plastic blue slide that is only a few feet off the ground is boring. When I think of what I played on as a kid, it was fantastically thrilling and incredibly fun.
I never in my life knew any kids that got any kind of terrible injury back then from playing around. Maybe one guy broke a finger or something, but everyone lived. The safety craze neutered playgrounds.
At some point the kid is going to come out of school and into the world where somebody is going to have a PB&J for lunch. It's better for them to learn how to deal with it when they're in a semi-controlled environment like school.
And no, by deal with it I don't mean daily anaphylaxis. Anyone who's that seriously allergic to something should carry their own epi pen, always and be very, very good at recognizing things that might contain their allergen, as well as their own personal signs of an impending reaction and what to do. Kids learn fast. Let them.
Perfectly safe.
As the description says... Nobody died.
Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
Not trying to go down the big brother road here but it just crossed my mind.
Would it not make great sense for the gov't to want the kids to grow up helpless with no skills, and then only the gov't trained people will have the skills for winning, survival and fighting....etc
Even the "safe" playgrounds can be dangerous. My daughter (youngest) fell off this over-head-hang-by-your-hands-and-slide-across thing, she landed funny and broke her elbow. Now the one broken arm does not close as much as the other one, but it does extend farther.... My daughter got a cool pink cast (she thought it was the best thing since sliced cheese) that her older brother (by 18 months) was jealous of. Up-shot.... nothing. She still goes on the over-head-hang-by-your-hands-and-slide-across thing and plays like a normal child. Did we sue? No. The other day, my kids wanted to go to the local amusment acrade joint (they have go-karts there). They asked if they could go on the go-karts. I told them only if they're big enough (they have a 52 inch height minimun). My daughter made it by an inch. She was thrilled. So, we got tickets and they waitied and they went. My wife thought I was crazy. After a tenetive start, she got the hang of it and began circulating. After 5 laps, she passed her brother who couldn't catch up. No one died. And we had happy kids.
Of course now they want their own racing go-karts. I told them if their grades are good enough, I'll figure it out...... 80cc shifter cart anyone?
They spend hours living in 'pretend world' and believe in irrational things like the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus and Jesus.
They only believe in them because they are constantly lied to about it by the authority figures in their lives.
See; perfectly good preparation for adult life.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
Well, we all live in a world with other people. The little ones need to learn to deal with the bullies, loudmouths and the weirdos.
Who do the bullies, loudmouths and weirdos need to learn to deal with?
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
... sound more like a list of fun things to do (which most kids will find irresistible).
The idea of host Liability was introduced to encourage Work Safety. We can eliminate all these stupid law suits by scrapping one act. Then everybody will be responsible for himself again.
children should practice yoga instead of doing risky jackass stunts,
you had me at #!
The Boy Scout summer camp I went to has a rifle range (.22's at paper targets).
I forget if the powers that be removed the safeties or just taught us not to use them, but the point was to rely on proper behavior for safety, not lean too much on mechanical safety devices.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
seconded; I feel the "boys will be boys" aspect was a key part of my Scout career, which in turn was a key part of my general personal development.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
It wasn't because of concerned parents. Playgrounds were built to last back in the day, made of steel, wood, and rubber(e.g. old tires). They were cheap and easy to maintain.
Along came playground manufacturers who asked schools if they would like to upgrade. They said maybe, then saw the price tag. Tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars per school district. They said, no way, our current equipment has lasted 30 years and still looks new.
So the playground manufacturers had their feelings hurt, and as retaliation lobbied Congress to ban the "dangerous" playground equipment of old. They got a few groups of stupid parents together to falsely claim said dangers. And voila, instant, MANDATED playground equipment courtesy of the government. F them all.
If you're that allergic to a common food source, you're on borrowed time anyway. No need to punish the rest along with you.
In the UK, the removal of the High Diving platforms has seen an increase in Tombstoning http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/leisurenandtheseaside/mcga-coastbeach/tombstoning.htm. It seems that if you coddle kids and take away planned quasi-dangerouse activities, they'll find far more dangerous ways of stretching themselves and conquering fears
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Risky behavior is something that kids need to get out of their system at a young age. They learn risk vs. consequence that way.
Now kids either seem to be scared of everything or scared of nothing due to never having any consequences for their actions either from their parents (which is another debate) or from hurting themselves while playing.
This might explain the rise in car accidents involving teens that we have here (Quebec), the kids think that they're invincible because the never hurt themselves before, so they take hard curves at 120km/h and fly off.
~Syberz
Children by any reasonable definition of the term are insane.
They spend hours living in 'pretend world' and believe in irrational things like the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus and Jesus.
By your definition most adults are insane too.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
this is what happens when you let fear takeover you come up with stupid reguilations. i am sorry but little boys have a urge to climb stuff so let them and let kids be kids. if a kid happens to fall down and break something then they have learned not to climb something that high. or a better idea how about parents actually watch their kids at plqygrounds. we are just making a generaton of wimpy kids. sorry people kids need to learn at a early age that everything has natural consurance if you don't like then lets keep making a bunch of wimpy kids. but i keep forgeting that we as a society want kids to go from birth right to adult hood. we dont believe in letting kids be kids anymore.
Hmm, how can you seriously believe this when there are numerous studies that show anyone going into shock from *smelling* peanuts is having a 99.9% psychological reaction? The effects of smelling an allergen like peanuts (that is not truly airborne, ever) would be mild, and not really ever require an epi-pen.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, though I'm not yet sure about the universe. - A Einstein
When I visited the Philippines about 2 years ago, I was struck by how strong the communities were (I was working for a week near Legazpi City, in the jungle). It did appear that the children would just run amok and people from the community just gathered in the street at night with all their neighbors to talk. On our commute, the work van had to slow way down in some neighborhoods because the whole neighborhood was in the street talking it up, smoking and drinking. This wasn't any special occasion, it happened every morning and every night. When I look at the US with our sterile suburbs, 2 TV's and 2 cars in every house, yes we are more wealthy. Most of the people I saw in the Philippines didn't have 2 dollars in their pocket. Their floors were made of dirt and their houses were maybe 2 rooms 500 sq ft. I go back and forth to work with my BMW, a luxury most of these people will never know (some of them might have a family 125cc motorcycle). But these people were genuinely happy, friendly with their neighbors, and their extended family lived in the neighborhood or next door. I saw very few people that looked sad. Tired maybe, but not depressed or sad. The US is first world country, but as far as community strength goes, Philippines has us beat by a mile.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
Common guys, that was a paraphrase from WKRP.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
As evidenced in the pictures, the U.S. children are much too overweight to be able to utilize any portion above 12ft . . .
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
Diving is a pointless, stupid and dangerous sport, whether for adults or children. All you need to know about diving is how to do a shallow dive into a known depth of water, anything else you should be jumping feet first. In a swimming pool, you have multiple useful skills to learn, including swimming, floating, life-saving, swimming underwater and the rest. High board diving is an exercise in futility and a waste of pool space. Go and tombstone off a cliff if you're that excited by it.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
I doubt it. People in general today are just far more ego-centric and driven to do dumb and/or unsafe things simply for their own convenience and/or lack of forethought. It just happens to correspond to advances in safety features. There are simply more people on the road, and proportionally more morons on the road.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
How many of those posting actually have kids of their own...who play outside as well? FYI I have three children ages 4, 2, and 1.
Car safety features are to lessen the damage one takes from an accident, not really much to prevent them. Also, the fact that your car is now gone is a huge monetary penalty for not being safe, rather than being damaged for life.
I've driven 85mph on the interstate after freezing rain but no wind . The back end was fish-tailing and the car sliding left and right, but the general rule of physics is, you keep moving int he same direction. I actually was able to turn the wheel 1/4 turn at 85, and the car kept going strait. That slippery.
Front wheel drive and constantly keeping the wheels strait keeps your car moving in the correct direction. Any time I had to change direction, like a turn, I slowed down well before hand, as even a mild bend on the interstate, even at 45, caused my car to slide a bit. It was crazy slippery
Similar thing in the city. Was going 50 in a 45 after freezing rain. I passed up someone who was going 20. The lights were green, but I knew they have been green for a while, so I started to slow down early. Lights changed and I was able to come to a full stop several feet before the cross walk. The other guy who was going 20... well, they slid right through the intersection and went into the ditch.. it was REALLY slippery.
I live in a heavy winter area. I can't count how many times I was speeding in icy conditions, was able to stop for stop signs and light, while other people who were going well under the limit, slid right through because they didn't slow down ahead of time.
The general public are idiots.
Ice is easy.. pretend you're in space. Changing your velocity is hard, so make sure you add time, and account for unknowns, like an intersection with a 2 way stop sign. Just because you have the right away, if you're driving fast and the person at the stop doesn't know that, they'll probably pull out in front of you, so slow down. Assume the other drivers are dangerous.
If I can't tell if a car is coming up to a stop sign because of Line-of-Site issues, I assume someone is, so I slow down.
P.S. I hate anti-lock breaks in the winter. Their pulses are so hard, they just cause your wheels to lock. I actually find letting off the gas pedal and letting the car coast is faster at slowing down the car on glare ice, than hitting the breaks. The engine drag is more analog and finds a better sweet spot than your ABS pulse-locking your wheels. Similar with manual car, put in high gear and let the engine drag slow you down. Well, for me this works on really really slippery ice.
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Other than the fear of scraped knees, there's the fear of razor blades in apples, rapists among school teachers, traces of peanuts, bacteria in public places, cancer from cellphones, etc... so many irrational fairs, it seems children can only be safe if they're locked in their room....
FUCK YOU, MONGORIANS!!!!