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Why Waste Servers' Heat?
mikejuk writes "A new paper from Microsoft Research (PDF) suggests a radical but slightly mad scheme for dealing with some of the more basic problems of the data center. Rather than build server farms that produce a lot of waste heat, why not have distributed Data Furnaces, that heat home and offices at the same time as providing cloud computing? This is a serious suggestion and they provide facts and figures to make it all seem viable. So when it gets cold all you have to do is turn up the number crunching ..."
This isn't a new idea. Some buildings like this already and IIRC IBM also marked this as one of their next 5 in 5.
Nobody's ever thought of that before. I thought this "paper" was going to have some kind of design for a way to do it or something. Actually, recently I've been thinking about the way some barns are constructed. Where they have have windows at the apex of the roof. I guess that channels the heat up and lets it out right? Is it possible to put turbines up there that are driven by heat?
640K(elvin) ought to be enough for anybody.
My PC has been doing double duty as a space heater for years.
The main issues are efficiency and temperature.
Sure, when you have something "for free" efficiency is moot. But you would still have to have pumps to transport the heat.
Hence the 2nd point: temperature. I'm thinking you can have the water around 50C/120F tops by that method. So if you get the water at that temp, pump it out to the offices, how much of your heating needs can be fulfilled there? How much heat will be lost in transport?
how long until
This has been done, at least to some extent, for many years.
There is a local school where I live which is heated by waste from an Ericsson server park.
One massive datacenter I was at initially used the servers to heat the swimming pool.
Finally as the server park grew the water reached above 40 degrees c and people were starting to complain.
Then they concluded they could heat surrounding areas with this heat as well.
Hardly radical. Power stations have done it for years, some other food processing factories have used the heat to warm up greenhouses to grow tomatoes.
A radical idea would be putting data centers in a cooler climate so they can be cooled more with ambient temperatures.
We used to have a minimal heating bill in the winter back when we kept a few racks of servers on-site. Our gas bill has gone up substantially as we've moved to virtualization.
Combined heat and power (CHP) schemes are a increasingly common using the waste heat from some process to provide district heating. Temperatures from a server farms might be a bit on the low side but it changes the situation when you look at the heat as a resource to be used rather than a waste item.
There are four sorts of people in the world: fools, lunatics, idiots and morons. - Umberto Eco, Foucaut's pendulum.
I smell a patent application coming on....
That is what I call my computers sometimes. My office is always the most comfortable room during the cold seasons since that waste heat keep it warmer (and the fact that it is in the upper level of the home). However, in the hot season (now), it is unbearable to work on much in my office. I had 5 computer running yesterday (4 were client computer getting serviced) and it was 85 F in my office with fans going and the AC nearly runs 24/7 lately due to the heat wave. This is a 10 F difference to the middle level where the thermostat is located. This house will built in 1956 and is a partial split level. The office and bedrooms are above a garage and utility rooms on a ground level slab and the mid level is over a crawl space. Poor insulation (by today's standards) in the walls is another factor as well.
I Cater to the Needs of Stupid People. - from a coffee mug Christmas gift
Damn it, NONE of us in the USA are in any mood to talk about heating our damn houses or buildings. It's 45 degrees centigrade. Can't we just save this discussion for a couple of months. It's not like a new idea or anything.
Gently reply
The least expensive DFs will use the existing home broadband connection
We have caps around here. And so will the rest of you, when the telecoms companies get their way.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jul/20/helsinki-data-centre-heat-homes
It would be nice to direct the heat (minus the lint) from my dryer to heat my home during the winter.
imagine a home where all heating is done by tiny computational devices that mine bitcoins http://www.bitcoin.org -> getting a reward for heating and cooking is something i like to have ;-)
Why does my refrigerator take heat out of the inside, and dump it into my house - requiring my A/C to then take it and again put it outside?
Why does my A/C in a house take all the heat and discharge it outside into the atmosphere, which meanwhile a pool heater is running 5 feet away using energy to generate more heat for the pool?
Why do people call incandescent light bulbs "energy wasters", when then can (in the cooler months) defray the work needed to be done by a household heating unit?
Why does the Pizza place down the street run their heater in the winter yet has these giant metal exhaust ducts running from their pizza ovens, venting heat to the outside world? (Why no fins/blowers on these ducts to disperse heat into the pizza-joint?)
The point is - people think of heating and cooling on a "unit" basis - and not on a systemic basis of an overall building - or even area. HVAC systems in buildings get this - sort of - they are not single machines - but a system of different, interconnected machines which are each interconnected, performing different tasks - sort of like organs in a human body. This approach needs to be thought of everywhere where cooling is required, and/or heat is generated.
As others have noted, there are many good examples of data center reusing waste heat. Here's a list of examples of server heat being recaptured to warm homes, offices, greenhouses and even swimming pools. This is common enough that The Green Grid recently released guidelines on the best way to integrate heat recapture in key efficiency metrics like PUE (Power Usage Effectiveness).
It was a sofa.
Actually, recently I've been thinking about the way some barns are constructed. Where they have have windows at the apex of the roof. I guess that channels the heat up and lets it out right?
No, that's not their purpose at all. Those aren't "windows". They are hatches. They aren't used for ventilation purposes, and they aren't used to let light in.
Most barns have at least two levels. Some that are built into the side of a hill can have three or more levels. Above those levels there is what's called the "loft". The hatches you're referring to lead to the loft.
The loft is usually separated from the lower floors by a wooden (or metal or concrete, in newer barns) floor, with one or two stairways leading down to the lower levels. There are very few pathways for light or air to move from the loft to the lower levels.
The hatch you're referring to is used to more easily move items, goods and material up to the loft, which can otherwise be difficult to access. Outside of the hatch there is usually a rope-and-pulley apparatus that can be used to lift or lower items. The items can be placed into or removed from the loft using the hatch.
nothing more to say about this.
I realized this at the end of winter when I had 8 high-power GPUs running in my condo mining Bitcoins, and my central heating was not running anymore. You put your hand behind one of the quad-GPU computers on full load, and it feels like a blowdryer, running 24 hours per day. Seemed to have no problem heating 1200 sqft. This seems to apply to GPUs more than anything, though. I don't know how many CPU servers can produce 1.5 KW of heat...
The server room was in a small space behind the bathroom. We had to vent the server room into the bathroom and I joked that we could use the 4 inch pipe as a hand dryer. The next day an elbow was on the pipe and a pipe went down to hand level. It was one of the best hand dryers I have ever used.
A core i5 2500k is rated at 95W full throttle, overclock and you get more.
...has done this for decades.
you had me at #!
By increasing the number-crunching we increase the power requirements of the CPU and the energy in, and heat out.
This much is self-evident.
However, is number-crunching work? If so how much work?
Feeding n watts into a system and crunching math at m mips. Does that leave us with n-k*m power out where k is some magic constant not necessarily unrelated to m already and varying with the machine?
Do you then want a low k-factor or will they simply increase the power in so that you don't freeze?
Heat collected in the data center could power furnaces on the lower levels, which would send warm steam to higher floor, so that the environment for directors would be cozy and moisty -- lower levels being cramped and hotter (because of the furnaces) seems a fair price to pay.
Directors would be walking amid the warm fog -- in a kind of Heaven while workers would sit all day long next to furnaces. They wouldn't last much, but hey, who wants to live in such hell forever?
I guess this doesn't help in places where you don't need a heater. Nobody I know ever uses a heater in South Florida. If only the surrounding heat could be put to good use! It sure takes quite a bit of current for central A/C to move the heat outside.
The idea, I think is that these servers are your cloud infrastructure, rather than being used for any local purpose.
Imagine a future where computer technology is a bit more stable than it is now, so a server has a 10 year or so useful life before becoming obsolete. Also you have fibre to every apartment building or office block.
Now, you want to convert some electricity into heat for whatever reason. So you buy/rent a "brick" of servers of suitable size, probably an all-solid state affair with no moving parts at all, plug it into the power and the internet and arrange to move heat out of it for whatever purpose you have. As far as you're concerned that's it, and this is cheaper for you than just buying or renting a conventional electric heating element (ie you get paid, or subsidised power for doing it).
As far as the user of the computation is concerned, they buy computation and related services from Amazon or someone, just as they do now.
The middle-man is running a complex management layer that migrates VM instances and data around the millions of "bricks" that they manage, and allocates each as much work to do as the demand for its heat output requires. Balancing the compute demand against the heat demand requires partly scale, partly non-urgent background jobs, partly blanacing load between time zones and hemispheres and partly a few conventional data centres that can fill in any gap.
McDonald's and KFC are now accepting bitcoins.
I used them earlier today to purchase happy meals for my kids, and a huge bucket of gravy from KFC for myself. I know it isn't real gravy, but it still tastes good, and it was worth it just to be able to use my bitcoins.
And the problem with it in most cases is that servers shrink over time. Every new generation is both smaller and more power-effiecent, or they just plain get moved.
Which means that in 15~20 years you are barely supplying enough heat to overcome heat losses in the system. And the homes and offices have no heating.
Sigh... Let's think about this shall we. The reason we currently discard our serveres every 3 years is that the operating costs per compute cycle savings exceed the capital costs of new servers. But these servers have negative operating costs. They will never go obsolete in terms of operating costs per computer cycle. They will only go obsolete when the wall clock time for a calculation becomes undesirably long. For certain kinds of servers (such as ones that are bandwidth starved) the machine will fail from old age first. This very long life cycle means it will be worth the extra cost of putting in very high reliability components.
The reason the paper is important is that it works through the less obvious but more important details. For example, there will be pluses and minuses to distribution. Residential electricity costs more than COmmerical electricity. Bandwidths will need to be upgraded. One of the big costs is the data center itself and that includes air circulation, facility maintanence, floorspace for egress not just cooling power. Don't forget about bathrooms, lights, floor cleaning and 403Bs for all the people who maintain the facility.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
I remember a cold winter when my heater was on the fritz and the only way I got through the night was a couple of Pentiums running Prime 95.
parent is only thread praising this.
Peltier devices and harvest the heat? OOPS, that would be possible and ALMOST useful, almost.
Take the heat and use it for a useful purpose... too green possibly?
Just the way the house got laid out, unfortunately. I had to switch to a more thermal efficient system just so the heater would actually run in the winter time.
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
University of Sherbrooke (in Quebec) has had this --- heats up some of its buildings using heat from their (rather large) cluster. I am sure they are not unique or at the cutting edge (Canadian universities are nowhere near as well funded as American ones).
At least there are other people at MS Research that do truly original and insightful work.
our political/economical/monetary system dictates that "waste" does not exist unless you can profit by eliminating it.
I used to heat my living room with just my PC running a few interesting BOINC projects in the colder months of the year:
http://boinc.berkeley.edu/
This is not new, I still fry my eggs on an old AMD processor, after that is done, I just place my coffee mug on top, it stays warm all day...
Why do people call incandescent light bulbs "energy wasters", when then can (in the cooler months) defray the work needed to be done by a household heating unit?
Because they are energy wasters. The furnace in your house is FAR more efficient at producing heat than the incandescent bulbs. It's not even a close comparison. Your basic point about how we should be using (and re-using) waste heat as much as possible is a good one but that isn't a reason to use energy wasting technologies for their by-products.
I do love the idea of using waste heat in useful ways but let's not generate waste heat on purpose.
What also works, and studies back it up is just putting in a dummy thermostat. people who complain it's too(hot/cold) suddenly stop afterwards.
Efficiency through lying. How normatively cute. :)
(The other common placebo example is the close door button in elevators.)
-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
The is similar to power plants using waste heat in the form of steam exiting the turbine(s) to heat local negiborhoods. It makes sense to recycle the heat but in the summer your back to trying to get rid of it.
I think its possible that the cooling water from such a system would be hot enough to operate a turbo expander type power generation system. You could attempt to turn some of the waste heat back into electricity. That would be useful year round and in hotter climates where heating is unnecessary.
I tried to research this a few months ago, but is bitcoin mining in any way profitable?
In your case it seems like you spent 4 grand on gpu's, then have to spend hundreds a month in power/cooling, get free heat, but for what kind of payout?
Does it pay for itself? can you pay rent from it?
My podunk little 48 CUDA core gpu can barely mine by the penny.
Last year, I entered a Microsoft-sponsored contest that promoted home energy efficiency. You had to demonstrate how you had improved your home's efficiency, and explain what you would like to improve. (The prize was a few thousand dollars to Home Depot, IIRC.)
Among other things, I demonstrated that in my basement, where I had recently added insulation and replaced the old windows with new energy efficient ones, I have a home office with no heating in it. Yet just leaving my server on and at full processor load is enough, in the dead of Winter, to make the room TOO warm. (Compared to a spare bedroom upstairs with horrible old insulation and windows where it was 55F if I left the heat vent closed and door to the rest of the house closed.)
(Yes, I know I'm not the first person to think of this, I'm not ACTUALLY accusing Microsoft of stealing my idea...)
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
It will be eventually illegal to convert electricity directly to heat, without useful computations. So your electric water heater and iron will come with built-in servers.
I am sure they are not unique or at the cutting edge (Canadian universities are nowhere near as well funded as American ones).
But they do teach geography, for one thing. ;)
SCNR...
My next house will have a tiny room for my water heater and computers to share.
"Your honor, since even on Windows the latest crop of computers has become way too energy-efficient to heat the dorm halls, that clustered brute-forcing of the **AA master key by our CS class must have been a completely unintended by-product of their attempts to survive the winter term without freezing..."
thanks to my 2 computers, I7 cpu's, my 2 monitors, my big ass 1080p tv, I never turn the heat on in my apartment (studio, live in seattle). In fact, i usually have my windows open all year around. I don't pay for heat. Sure, during the Summer it can suck a bit, mainly if we hit over 90, and if no air is blowing can stay too hot at night, but hell, I don't pay for heating.
I do though, seem to have a nice high electric bill.
Be seeing you...
It used to be, but not anymore. This is actually one of the "features" of BTC: there's a competition incentive to dump resources into mining, but every time you do so, it becomes harder to get the next coin.
"Honey, I'm cold. Compile something.
During winter crank up the CPU cycles, especially in 'colder' countries. Heck, have a data center up in Alaska and pump the excess heat into a nearby sauna.
Even better, create world largest datacenter where winters get really cold and put world's largest outdoor hot tub beside it! Since data centers never shut down your water would always be piping hot!
Actually, how much heat IS generated by some of the larger data centers and just how big a hot tub would you need for a heat sink?
Screw Folding@Home.
Mine BitCoin! At least if you mine long enough you can convert the Bitcoin into Newegg gift cards or something.
...and it's how I heat my apartment. I already use my computers to heat my home during the winter months, and I keep it comfortably 80 degrees in here. I have turned off the circuit to my baseboard heaters, and soley use computers running SETI@Home to heat my apartment. Why do I do it? Simply because it's cheaper. If I use baseboard heaters to heat my apartment, it costs $300/mo. Using my computers to heat my apartment, it costs $115 a month. It's cheaper to heat my place running a datacenter then it is to use residential heating.
Get your free Dropbox account with 2 GB Free storage!
because heat pumps are a far more economic and efficient way to heat a home
In summer of 1981, I worked for Charter Information in Austin TX.
They ran a Xerox Sigma 6 (nice machine for the day). They'd moved down from Woburn MA a few years earlier. When they'd set up their offices in Woburn, they'd run a duct from the computer cooling air exhaust to the building HVAC ducts. They reported that they didn't have to start their oil burners at all during Massachusetts winter: the waste heat from the Sigma was enough to heat their entire office suite.
That was over thirty years ago.
You young whippersnappers need to learn some history. And GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/4298e48e35b7efc0?hl=en :-) or you add seawater. :-) You could have this or any other local industrial process be thermostat controlled (or predictively controlled, or timer controlled, or some combination), so if your house or facility needs more heat you run the process; and if your building is hot enough for your needs, you don't run it, thus using local industrial-like processes to regulate your homes climate. For processes that absorb heat you could do the inverse for air conditioning. You can do that with networked computers too, so if you need heat you do local computation for the network, if you don't need heat, you shut those processors down. Special processor units or industrial process units for various purposes could be designed to replace regular electric baseboard heaters or central furnaces. So, essentially, industry is running for no extra energy charge where people use electricity to heat, and it runs at a subsidy where people use currently cheaper ways to heat like oil or gas or wood. And sometimes you might want to produce stuff anyway, and so you would need to dump the waste heat or use it in some other way or store it in some thermal storage system like a water mass or sand mass or phase changing salts or other such system, with the stored heat being used as part of the thermoregulatory planning. Of course, if you insulated your home well, you might not need a furnace, so there are economic limits to this idea as people improve their infrastructure in other ways...)
"Now, there are probably lots of ways you could do this [grow cell cultures as agricultural liquids like orange juice] that you know more about that I. But here is what I envision for home use (as opposed to big industrial use).
You have two versions. One is for outdoors, and is a big machine you set up in you yard with a glass top that has photosynthesizing algae that either produce the liquids directly or produce something that feeds another culture specific to a plant or animal derived culture specific to what you want to make. You need to add water, but for extra nutrients, you also add ground up rock dust (Smari could sell everyone some from Iceland
For indoor use, you replace your home furnace with these things as presumably they would give off heat if indoors you lit them with artificial lamps or if they consumed oil or natural gas (bio-derived elsewhere) as feedstocks. Again, you add water and rock dust (or seawater). So, you have year-round indoor agricultural liquid production at very low cost.
(I'll give away an idea here as a patent-preventing disclosure that I've been hoarding.
This would totally change how agriculture was done. Instead of having lunar moonscapes like Iowa is part of the year, people would just produce their own agricultural liquids in neighborhood facilities or at home, using the local waste heat for other purposes as well. Most agricultural lands could be returned to wilderness. The total energy bill for a home might not go up very much using the above idea for thermostatic regulation. "
A week ago I sent something to GE about this idea for their ecomagination challenge --even though I missed getting the idea into their contest, I wanted people to know about it. But it is not listed here yet (if ever):
http://challenge.ecomagination.com/ct/ct_list.bix?c=home
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
I remember reading somewhere (may have been Slashdot) a while back that there where buildings designed in the mainframe days to draw heat from the "computer room" to heat the buildings. Unfortunatly when computers got smaller and cooler they had to install extra heating systems in these buildings.
I may be remembering this wrong though.
My boiler broke this past winter and I had to run 2 space heaters a week until it was fixed.
Let me tell you, electrical heat is super expensive. Those space heaters for that week cost more than the 1955 natural gas boiler did in a month.
Ingredients:
1 lb of beef chuck, chopped into 1-inch pieces
2 cloves garlic, minced
1 onion, chopped
2 tbsp oil for frying
one bay leaf
salt and pepper to taste
water
Directions:
1. Attach a large pan directly to the server CPU with heatsink compound, and brown the beef, a few pieces at a time, to avoid steaming them. Set aside.
2. Detach the pan from the CPU about 5 mm, and sautee the onions until golden brown, about 5 minutes.
3. Add the garlic, sautee 1 minute.
4. Add beef, salt and pepper, bay leaf, and water to cover.
5. Place pan over 1kW multi-GPU exhaust, and simmer two hours, or until meat is tender.
At two of our locations we have Mitsubishi R2 heat pump systems that are capable of running both heat/cool modes simultaneously.
The beauty? The waste heat that is removed from my server room in the winter via cooling mode is exchanged within the system and makes the heat side more efficient, transferring that heat energy to the rest of the building.
So instead of paying for the electricity to turn it into bits and bytes, and then paying AGAIN for even MORE electricity to move that waste heat to the roof via the AC unit, and then even MORE electricity to heat my cube farm, I'm now able to move the waste heat to my cube farm directly, skipping the middle step. Not only do I skip the middle step, but I greatly reduce the amount of energy required in step 3.
LOVE IT!
(and our accountants love the lower utility bills of heat pumps vs gas fired heat)
WORK HARDER!
I can see this solving a lot of problems with lazy workers in cold climates.
Make lots of jerky. Beef jerky. Pork jerky. Turkey Jerky. Shrimp jerky. Lots and lots of jerky.
There's a company out there selling 100kW gas turbines where the waste heat is used to power absorption chillers, a complete datacenter solution without reliance on grid power.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
My room can go up to 90F degrees upstair in Los Angeles/L.A. area. :(
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
In other words a pyramid scheme. The early adopters gain advantage from all the suckers that come after them and nothing of comparable value to the scam is produced. The cool maths, software and hardware is really just the art on the box designed to being in the suckers.
Eh, what we need to do is look to F1 ... some Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems convert the heat energy of braking into electrical energy which is stored and then returned to the system as a ~60HP boost. Computers generate a lot of heat and we could be cranking out the HP. Um, well, let's just leave the electricity as electricity then.
I understand that converting heat to electricity is rather lossy and using heat for heat is a win, but I suspect the problem is distributing heat over any distance, not to mention that it's not very useful in the summer.
Heck, I want KERS for my computer so it can drop energy consumption when my computer starts to overheat.
Overclockers please take note of the massive amounts of electricity you could be generating!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KERS
Microsoft R&D is really firing on all cylinders again, or should I say "on all photocopiers"... But then again, what would you expect from a company that made it's money (and a lot of it) from marketing other's ideas as their own.
not really anything that new: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jul/20/helsinki-data-centre-heat-homes
If all else fails, pull the plug and get out...
The Life is out there...
The summary says "this is a serious...", which always strikes me as odd. Despite the ubiquity of laugh tracks, jokes shouldn't need an introduction; if you don't get it, you probably don't know you don't get it. In the absence of something absolutely ridiculous, phrases like ' this is serious ', stand out as an indicator of ' this is quite stupid '.
Imposing the word 'work' has a similar implication. The telephony system didn't need to superimpose 'work' into its terminology to assert that telephones actually worked; nor did television. Not unsurprisingly, netWORKs did.
I ride a motorcycle to work, and last week was 5 days of solid rain. My jacket is 15 years old and the leather has cracks throughout, so waterproofing is a bit hit and miss. Lately I've gotten into the habit of hanging it on a trolley in the exhaust row in our computer room, not sure if it's great for humidity but it dries a soaked jacket in a couple of hours!
Virtual machine encapsulation ensures certain degree of isolation. Secure executions on untrusted devices are feasible.
Can someone competent explain what they mean by the second sentence? Or a ResourcePtr to a specific term?
Every end has half a stick.
If your goal is to generate bitcoins, a fast GPU will smoke the Core i5.
you should try damn pentium D cpu's :))
Now that hydroponic systems are now being manufactured in standard ISO container sizes, It's only a matter of time before large datacenters with containerized server clusters are sitting together with containerized urban hydroponics systems. Running heated cooling water through the agricultural system heat exchanges kills two birds with one stone.
Normally, these CPUs need cooling systems of their own. The heat sink is there, but on top of it, a fan is also needed to ventilate the heat out of that area.
I was wondering something - say, one took an open motherboard on a rooftop over some really cold areas, like Canada or Alaska, and instead of the fan, had a huge heatsink that had its fins and wings going all the way out. Ensure that it's in an area where there is reasonable winds and low temparatures. Have a shed over it so that rain or snow doesn't make it untenable, and use it to warm up that area, in addition to doing the bitcoin mining, or whatever other compute-intensive work it could do.
Would such an idea work? And if it did, couldn't one take a massively parallel system, w/ say 256 CPUs, and use it to warm up a major area? Too bad these ideas weren't around when DEC existed, and their Alpha CPU existed. That was the fastest (in MHz) CPU, and also the hottest. Had they still been around, one could have done some serious heating w/ them.
Yeah.
So if you're heating houses with cloud servers, then you're stuck with transporting the heat somehow from your data farm to your houses. The obvious solution being to put the server in the house. If everyone ends up with their own cloud server in their house, is it still a cloud? Or is it just a desktop again?
Space heaters were banned at my place of employment. So I and my officemate got three big servers and set them to encoding/decoding video content. Toasty!
We actually had the gas turned off at our building this winter after the gas company had several pipes burst. Fortunately for me, my office mate has two old Pentium 4 computers that he uses for miscellaneous stuff now and then. That day, they served as very efficient space heaters. While it was 50-55 degrees in the hallways and in most offices, we were a very comfortable 75 degrees. That being the case, I think this should work just fine!