Sports Bars Changing Channels For Video Gamers

dtmos wrote in to say that "This summer, StarCraft II has become the newest bar room spectator sport. Fans organize so-called Barcraft events, taking over pubs and bistros from Honolulu to Florida and switching big-screen TV sets to Internet broadcasts of professional game matches. As they root for their on-screen superstars, StarCraft enthusiasts can sow confusion among regular patrons... But for sports-bar owners, StarCraft viewers represent a key new source of revenue from a demographic—self-described geeks—they hadn't attracted before."

Comments

Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Anonymous Coward]

I guarantee that if I'm at the bar watching a White Sox game, and somebody turns it off in favor of some video game, there's going to be hell to pay.

(replace "White Sox" with your favorite team that plays a real sport based on physical prowess)

Come on, bring out the -1's. Show me how malevolent you really are, slashdot moderators.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Luckily, finely honed reflexes and well developed fine-motor skills are not forms of physical prowess... so the status of Real Sports is safe.

C'mon: Obviously, for the basic reason that our metabolisms sure as hell didn't evolve for sitting on the couch and letting our fingers do the work, getting actual exercise is healthy and useful(some people are even into it for its own sake, I'm told).

Plunking your ass on the couch and cheering as your tribe fights the away tribe, though, bears basically the same relationship to real physical activity that plunking your ass on the couch and cheering as your RTS-er of choice drops some stimpacked marines on the opposition's mining outpost. That is, None At All.

Spectating isn't a sport, no matter what you are staring at.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[redherring728]

After years of restaurants and bars showing exclusively sports, and changing the channel TO sports if it's not already on sports, it's nice to see that there's something on the screen that YOU don't care about for a change. Now you know how we feel. I wouldn't even want to watch Starcraft, but it would be a welcome difference from that crap that's normally on there.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[h4rr4r]

At least those are more entertaining than baseball.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Yamioni]

I have to respectfully disagree. Starcraft and other competitive online games are just as much a sport as baseball and football. Just like traditional sports, they require that you have good reflexes. They also require that you strategise and think ahead, predicting your opponent's moves better than they predict yours, in order to succeed. Just because the player isn't wearing protective gear and sweating in the sun doesn't mean it is any less intense; the focus is just shifted more off of the player's body and onto the mind. That also doesn't mean that the sport is less enjoyable or interesting to both the participants and the spectators. Different strokes for different folks ya know?

We live in America. Majority rules. If ten people want to watch the Sox play, and 20 want to watch Starcraft, the bar owner is going to change the TV. And if you start shit about it, they will happily tell you to leave. Money talks. Mouthy assholes who think the world should cater to them and their every whim walk.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Nidi62]

(replace "White Sox" with your favorite team that plays a real sport based on physical prowess)

How does baseball fit into your argument?

Well, look on the bright side: he at least picked the one real baseball team in Chicago, and not the Cubs :)

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[cashman73]

The downfall of America continues, right in your own sports bar. And you thought it was bad enough when you walk into the bar in April or May and end up watching women's college softball, the Little League World Series now, or "World Championship Poker" at other random times during the year,. . . I guess they've got to fill the airtime somehow,. . .

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[IDK]

I guarantee that if I'm at the bar watching a White Sox game, and somebody turns it off in favor of some video game, there's going to be hell to pay.

If the video game supporters outnumber the 'real sport' supporters, I would think not... Instead of a game of who can be the smartest*, you prefer a sport where the luckiest win first and the best win second. * Where smartest here means the one who can outsmart the opponent, is better at strategy and can think faster.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[grimmjeeper]

The thing is though, you can arrange these ahead of time to be played when there are no good games on. Baseball tends to have a game on almost any time every single day during the season but when you reach the fall, winter and spring sports you're talking about several days when there just isn't any games on. Sure, Americans play football all weekend (college on Saturday, professional on Sunday), and then there's the Monday night game, along with maybe a few more. But even with other sports, there are days when there's nothing on TV. May as well have something else competitive on where you can lure in the patrons.

And yes, video games are not sports in the traditional sense. But they are competitive and some do require the physical ability to control the game. Reaction time, eye hand coordination, etc. are all important in FPS games. Some of the mental challenges, like maintaining situational awareness to make tactical decisions, aren't as different from sports as you may think.

I wouldn't suggest that they are "true" sports. But they are competitions that may be interesting for someone to watch. And as such, not completely out of the realm of what would appeal to sports bar patrons.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Skarecrow77]

I've never understood how FPS capture-the-flag games that had a good active spectator mode, like Tribes, etc. never caught on as a spectator sport with video gamers and traditional sports fans alike. It seems like they've got everything your average sports fan would enjoy. a medium size squad of players who have specific positions to fill. quick turnovers, last minute saves, plenty of opportunity for both team tactical dynamics AND individual heroics to affect the match, etc. Easy-to-explain goals and dynamics that don't becoming boring (unless the map encourages turtling).

Seems like it's almost custom-built to be a great spectator sport.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Deltaspectre]

Regardless, this baseball game needs some new maps instead of these boring re-textures.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[The Moof]

I don't know. I think baseball in Chicago is some king of large-scale practical joke I'm not in on. Fans fervently arguing with one another about which team is better, while they both struggle to be .500 teams. Some kind of intense battle over mediocrity...

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but you're flat out wrong. Here is the definition of the word sport:
sport

[spawrt, spohrt] Show IPA
noun
1.
an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.

I'm not personally opposed to the idea of competitive and/or professional gaming, but it is simply not a sport, and the insistence on calling it a sport or even worse an eSport only invites ridicule from those not involved in it. It's important to note in the definition is that the athletic part is a requirement, while the competitive part is not. So when I'm playing backyard football for fun, I'm still playing a sport. When I'm playing Boggle or blackjack competitively, I am not playing a sport. And professional blackjack players will not try to dispute this, since they know it would only lead to ridicule. If competitive video game players ever want anything resembling widespread acceptance, they are going to have to accept the fact that it is not a sport.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[h4rr4r]

Considering starcraft is far less boring than baseball I don't understand your point. Of course I find football barely watchable, too much stopping. Hockey is a decent game to watch at the bar though.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Kreigaffe]

It's all just an effort to forget about the Bears

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[metrix007]

Yes, I'm sure the bartender will respond exactly as you imagine upon your firm demand in a slightly raised but polite voice.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Attila Dimedici]

So, let me get this straight, you think that restaurants and bars should change the channel from one thing that you are completely uninterested in but some of their other patrons are, to something else that you are completely uninterested in?

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[_0xd0ad]

And if you look at "athletic" it says "of or relating to athletes or athletics".
And if you look at "athletics" it says "exercises, sports, or games engaged in by athletes".

It's circular, so it can mean anything you want it to mean.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[N1AK]

Why would we want to downmod you, your post's a great example of just how pathetic some people can be when it comes to a ball being hit/thrown/bounced around.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Andy Dodd]

I can't tolerate football at all on TV, and I can barely tolerate it in person, for the same reason as you - too much time spent watching the clock tick with nothing happening.
I somewhat enjoy hockey on TV, but I LOVE it in person, especially in a highly energetic rink like Lynah Rink at Cornell. Sometimes you can burn 8 minutes of a period without a single stoppage of play. (Which actually sucks if the rink doesn't let you take your seats during play and you get to the game 2 minutes late.)
I'd find entertainment from a Starcraft match or a good FPS match even though I never enjoyed playing SC myself.
Baseball - it's OK in person, but mindnumbingly boring on TV. The only time I've tolerated it on TV was when I was in Japan and it was the only thing I could understand on TV.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[moderatorrater]

Agreed. StarCraft is a sport the same way that FarmVille is a video game. It might fit technical definitions, but it's not the same thing.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you are a "regular" at a sports bar you most likely suffer at least some mild retardation.

Amen. I guess at some point in life they decided "hmm, is that a bunch of overpaid athletes? i'm going to pretend like everything they do is both important and has a significant impact on my personal life. i will get really excited about their every move and make a big deal out of every action they take. i may even get into shouting matches or even fistfights with other people who don't like my team, because they are like infidels."

I understand how the GP feels. Retarded and confused is a tough way to go through life.

You sure about that? It looks like big business to me. Everything is designed for them.

The newspapers are written for a 3rd-grade reading level (not kidding about this, look it up) just to make sure they don't get confused by all those scary polysyllabic words. It's almost like an unwritten law that you are a terrible person if you ever intellectually challenge someone in any way or ever expect them to know how to use a dictionary.

The entertainers. Most of the celebrities, actors, athletes have the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old. This is what gets promoted. Ever watch say Desperate Housewives and look at how petty and vindictive and catty they are? That's what gets ratings. Ever watch Entertainment Tonight and see how some insignificant piece of melodrama is treated like a profound event worthy of public scrutiny? That's what gets ratings.

Warning labels. Now they tell you that bug spray is poisonous. Wow, you mean something so toxic it can be sprayed on a cockroach and the cockroach will drop dead might be bad to ingest? You don't say. Coffee is hot. Wow, you mean a beverage made from boiling or near-boiling water could be hot? Damn I am glad they protect all the stupids from having to rub two brain cells together to discern these things.

No, the tough way to go through life is to be one of the minority who sees all these things we get so excited about and spend so much time and energy on, and then sees how stupid, wasteful, and pointless they all are.

We should understand this as a society and leave the retarded to their "Sports Bars" (It is so cute we call them that.) We can pad the walls. Guard the entrance and keep them safe from "outsiders".

Well it would be amusing just for once to see a sports game get pre-empted by something else. Just to see how the sports fans like it when it happens to them. Because usually a football game or a basketball game will pre-empt ANYTHING ELSE that's on the air no matter how much more merit it may have. It's like mental crack rock for the shallow. Those who aren't jock-sniffers and aren't obsessed with how well some millionaires can play a game have had to put up with that for a long time now.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Methuseus]

Don't you dare turn off my curling match for some stupid baseball game!

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[DarkXale]

I quite enjoy spectating video games personally, as its a quite good way to pick up little tricks and strategies in a lot of titles - particularly RTSs. You can enjoy the game itself and benefit by learning from it simultaneously.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Sir_Eptishous]

Different people watch things for different reasons. "Sport"...? Perhaps you are correct. "Game"...? Sure as shit StarCraft is a game, with as much strategy/tactics as any "real world/physical" sport. I love the NFL, but I would take watching StarCraft over baseball/golf/tennis anyday. Game On!

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I have no problem with people enjoying spectator sports, if that is their fancy. I simply find it hugely annoying that people somehow think that the physicality of sports bleeds over into the spectators and confers some sort of virtue on them.

There are valid reasons for arguing that(in moderation, pro athletes get ground down like livestock and then put out to pasture pretty fast) playing sports is better for you than playing video games; but watching people do either is functionally indistinguishable.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[ragethehotey]

Any FPS that moves fast enough to be exciting enough for the players involved is very difficult to watch as a spectator.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Hatta]

It may or may not be a sport. What's clear is that it has no more value than a sport. It's just utterly contrived competition to keep us distracted. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on your perspective, but ultimately it's the same thing whether it's sports or video games.

I don't know why you'd go to a sports bar to watch Starcraft when you could play it at home. And I don't know why you'd go to a sports bar to watch baseball when you could organize a pick up game yourself.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[ph0rk]

John M. Roberts defined games in three categories, paraphrased here:

"The categories proposed by Roberts at al. are staged; games of chance do not require any skill or strategy (dice games, coin tosses), games of strategy may or may not involve chance but do not involve physical skill (chess, go, poker), and games of physical skill require skill, and may or may not involve chance or strategy. Amusingly, this would place [video] games in the same category as footraces, boxing, and soccer – that of physical skill (1959:597-598)."

cite: Roberts, John M., Malcolm J. Arth, and Robert R. Bush. 1959. “Games in Culture”. American Anthropologist, 61(4):597-605.

Roberts was talking about games with a competitive element, where there must be a clear winner and loser.

Who are you to say that actions per second are any less determined by physical prowess than running and throwing a ball or swinging a stick? Obviously the strategic element in a game like starcraft greater than that of baseball.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[toastar]

Regardless, this baseball game needs some new maps instead of these boring re-textures.

Funny, Baseball is probably one of the only major sport to have any variability in the field. My park even has a hill in center field.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[surferx0]

The downfall of America continues, right in your own sports bar. And you thought it was bad enough when you walk into the bar in April or May and end up watching women's college softball, the Little League World Series now, or "World Championship Poker" at other random times during the year

Because major league baseball is at all any more interesting than what you mentioned? Hell, there's probably more hits and action going on in women's softball and little league, and at least watching poker you can learn something.

Be honest with yourself, in both cases you are sitting on your ass and watching TV, cheering on your favorite player/team of choice performing what they are better than almost all of the world's population at doing. The competitive spirit encompasses both the mental and the physical.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[painandgreed]

I guarantee that if I'm at the bar watching a White Sox game, and somebody turns it off in favor of some video game, there's going to be hell to pay.

I'll tell you right now, that practically any bar you are at, sport's or not, will gladly change the channel to whatever brings in the most customers and gives them the most business. I've seen sports bars show X-Files, Sex in the City, Battlestar Galactica, instead of their normal sports because having 40 people watching their favorite TV show and drinking trumps 10 guys watching "the game". Somebody has gone to the management, told them they can bring in more people if they offer to play their favorite show, and the management agreed. If you want to make sure the White Sox are playing at your favorite bar, organize the events, get people out to watch it, and make sure you have and understanding with the management. Otherwise, if 40 Starcraft fans show up to drink and watch Starcraft who have already talked to the management, you're just going to have to learn to watch Starcraft or find a different bar.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[UnknowingFool]

Yeah it's not like sports bars are full of TVs or something. I mean this is likely to cause a riot when all the people huddled around a sports bar's single TV realize the TV isn't on commentating on the frenetic pace of baseball.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Anonymous Coward]

We live in America. Majority rules. If ten people want to watch the Sox play, and 20 want to watch Starcraft, the bar owner is going to change the TV. And if you start shit about it, they will happily tell you to leave. Money talks. Mouthy assholes who think the world should cater to them and their every whim walk.

Actually, what's more likely to happen is the Bar owner buys another TV, or changes the channel on one of the dozens they already have.

Smart bar owners know that they have a diversity of customers and accommodate it.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[CastrTroy]

I agree with you on the hockey there. I actually find it more enjoyable to watch amateur and university games as there aren't all the stoppages in play for TV commercials. I didn't pay $60+ a ticket to watch the TimBits play hockey. Olympic hockey used to be good, although I think the last time around they incorporated commercial breaks as well.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Lumpy]

I want them to try it in a london pub during the world cup...

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Oligonicella]

"It seems like they've got everything your average sports fan would enjoy."

Sans players that can actually do the things you're watching, I'd say I agree.

I say this from experience as a spectator/non-player. I don't engage in the games, but when I'm visiting friends that do I find the screen very much like a movie with no plot and mildly entertaining.

Right up until I hear the voice of that creepy thirteen year old geek railing on someone. After that it's completely gone. All I can see for players is some ten year old version of Emo Phyllips sitting in his parent's basement playing sixteen hours a day because his folks won't interact because he's "become creepy".

OK, that's overboard, but it's my point. I'm not spending five bucks on a drink to listen to some ten year old play a pretend sport competitively. Does not compute.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[cayenne8]

Amen to that. Spectating is horribly boring. I'd rather play the sport or video game myself than watching some guys I don't care about do it.

In some cases..yes.

But during college football season, I LOVE to go to the local bars where you can get good food, good drinks, yell and scream with friends, and most of all....pick up on some cute chicks in the bar that have had a few beers!!

You can't do that very easily when on the play field, or sitting at home in front of your TV on a video game.

For me, going out to watch some sports (and I'm not a huge sports fan mind you), is as much about a socialization event as anything else.

One of my fav places is: Cooter Brown's. Their FOOD menu is as good as their beer menu I linked to. I can't wait for oyster season to kick in during CFB season...good beer, oysters and college chicks running around. Life is good.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[cayenne8]

You're right, money talks. The regular patrons get the say because they spend more money over all. (And don't dare quote that fucking "double a normal take" quote at me, that's one bar for one night versus a continuous income over the entire year.)

Hear hear!!!

Just let me into my bar, where I'll have drinks, smoke a few cigarettes...and generally have a fun time. I'm regular at a number of watering holes, they know my name because I'm friendly, I come often, and I tip very well.

Because of that, I get met at the bar often with my preferred drink. No problem when I want to have them turn up the juke box or tv, or change a channel...etc.

Yes, since I'm local and a regular, I do tend to get preferential treatment over someone else that isn't. Heck, I've had a couple people try something with me, and guess what? Their asses were the FIRST ones thrown out....a regular customer is usually more 'right' than a walk-in off the street.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[lgw]

I understand how the GP feels. Retarded and confused is a tough way to go through life.

Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, but it can land you a job as assistant to the Narn ambassador, so it's not a total loss.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[DreadPiratePizz]

The reason it never caught on was that it's simply not spectator friendly. With a sport, you can see all the player on the field at once and you can tell what they are doing. With an FPS, you can;t really see all players at once, and if you can, it's not clear what they are doing. Sometimes you can only appreciate player skill when you watch in first person, whereas you can easily see physical feats of sports athletes. Starcraft has this in common with sports; a lot of the battlefield is visible, and you can easily see and appreciate the skill involved in controlling the units.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[im_thatoneguy]

The problem with video games is that there's often a lot going on. In basketball or football you have a central point of interest. And you can point all the cameras at that. If you have a game of TF2 you have a spy sneaking in through the vents, an engineer in a duel with a soldier. A medic heavy combo and a demo man circling around the spawn... etc etc.

Pro games are often more team oriented but still to some degree scattered more broadly than one focal ball.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Methuseus]

Then why is poker on the Entertainment *Sports* Programming Network? Some people think it's a sport.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[daktari]

...just to make sure they don't get confused by all those scary polysyllabic words...

Well played sir, well played.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[SilentStaid]

Because this current generation of sports fans didn't grow up playing Tribes. They grew up playing ____ball.

Give it 30 years and lets revisit.

also... I'd like to mention I don't find someone taking a bullet for another in a video game to be nearly as heroic as taking a hit for someone in a sport. One thing that's great about the physical sports is that there is a very, very clear punishment for playing poorly. You do something stupid in Starcraft, you lose a base, you lose the game... whatever. You don't block a punch in boxing - you get hurt. Then you lose.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Try watching football on a DVR. Much more enjoyable.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[SilentStaid]

I understand what you're saying, but I think that you're thinking too small.

On an average football play, you never pay attention to a receiver who puts up a great block for a run unless the run goes right by him. You don't notice the linemen holding the pocket from collapse after the camera follows the deep pass. You see these things in replay - just like you would were the FPS games an actual sport.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[_0xd0ad]

The newspapers are written for a 3rd-grade reading level (not kidding about this, look it up) just to make sure they don't get confused by all those scary polysyllabic words.

But I thought syllabuses were written for a third-grade level too. And who's Polly? Is she hot? Are her boobs big?

It's almost like an unwritten law that you are a terrible person if you ever intellectually challenge someone in any way or ever expect them to know how to use a dictionary.

Dictionary (n), a book for holding dead words.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[MartinSchou]

With a sport, you can see all the player on the field at once and you can tell what they are doing.

So ... cycling is not a sport? How about golf? Marathon?

There are plenty of sports that are pretty big TV spectator sports where it is impossible to see all contestants at once, even with the advantage of cameras.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[SilentStaid]

For giggles, from Wiki:

"A sport is an organized, competitive, entertaining, and skilful activity requiring commitment, strategy, and fair play, in which a winner and loser can be defined by objective means. Generally speaking, a sport is a game based in physical athleticism. Activities such as board games and card games are sometimes classified as "mind sports," but strictly speaking "sport" by itself refers to some physical activity" Sport.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[The Moof]

ESPN also shows spelling bees. Simply being on ESPN doesn't immediately validate anything as a sport, just like being on MTV doesn't immediately validate anything as music, nor being on the old Sci-Fi Channel didn't automatically make anything science fiction.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Lehk228]

What is needed is a good automated spectator cam that follows the action and renders nicely

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[_0xd0ad]

I was using Webster's dictionary. But hey, twiddling your thumbs is "physical activity". So is breathing. So is pounding your fist on the table and yelling at the TV when your favorite team is losing.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[The Moof]

Golf is probably the only sport that really tests adaptability. The courses all greatly vary, and even the individual courses themselves change quite often.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[The Moof]

It's all just a dog and pony show to me until the Blackhawks hit the ice again anyway.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[amicusNYCL]

I've never understood how FPS capture-the-flag games that had a good active spectator mode, like Tribes, etc. never caught on as a spectator sport

I felt the same way when I used to play Mechwarrior 4 online, it had a great CTF mode. You would have the big powerful mechs hanging around the flag or pushing up to support the small runners, the runner swarms with stealth radar and jump jets coordinating their runs over microphones, and the medium mechs covering the runners and intercepting the opposing runners. Seeing as how it already had a good spectator mode, there's nothing missing. You can have spectators with mics be the announcers, you can hear the audio from the two teams, and you can have dedicated spectator "cameramen", either free-roaming or attached to a player. There were several CTF clans that had good rivalries going on, and it made for a lot of exciting, high-scoring games.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[deathlyslow]

Well it would be amusing just for once to see a sports game get pre-empted by something else. Just to see how the sports fans like it when it happens to them. Because usually a football game or a basketball game will pre-empt ANYTHING ELSE that's on the air no matter how much more merit it may have. It's like mental crack rock for the shallow. Those who aren't jock-sniffers and aren't obsessed with how well some millionaires can play a game have had to put up with that for a long time now.

Actually it's more of a contractual agreement than what is more meritorious in one person's opinion. Don't get me wrong, I would rather watch a High School or even a pewee league game than a so-called professional team. At least the amateurs shows some heart and determination.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[mythandros]

Hell to pay? I can tell! You're so fearsome you posted as "Anonymous Coward".

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[theangrypeon]

but it can land you a job as assistant to the Narn ambassador

I'm pretty sure you meant assistant to the Centauri ambassador.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[OldeTimeGeek]

Blackhawks on ice? That'd be interesting - but they're awfully hard to find and I don't think that anybody's gonna resurrect the Stutz company again...

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[grimmjeeper]

Let me clarify. I'm talking about a professional sport that people are actually interested in watching at a sports bar. Sure, there's always some kind of professional sport being broadcast. But only a few are truly popular. In an American sports bar, the only sports that are going to draw a crowd are American football, basketball, baseball, and probably hockey. Maybe even NASCAR in some regions. (yes, I'm probably missing one or two but that doesn't invalidate the point.) While individual sports bars may have a niche of fans from other sports, that's an exception rather than the rule. Golf is a professional sport but who goes to a sports bar to watch it? Very few people would go to a sports bar to watch tennis, even during Wimbledon, or the French Open. So what if there's a billiard tournament on ESPN? Not many people at a sports bar will care if you change the channel. Football (soccer) is wildly popular outside of the US but even during the World Cup, it's barely a blip on the radar of most Americans. Some bars may have World Cup on their TVs but that's just a couple of days before it's gone again. Same can be said for most other sports. They are professional, sure, but people don't go to the bars to watch them.

I'm not trying to denigrate these other sports. I'm just looking at it from the perspective of a bar trying to draw a crowd. Outside of the popular sports, there's nothing to draw a crowd at a sports bar. There's a lot of dead time throughout the year because there's no popular pro sport being played at the time. So there's plenty of room in the schedule to do these kinds of video game sessions to draw a crowd.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Darinbob]

Not that I care about Starcraft, but what makes sports so special that they must always take precedent? In the several decades I've been alive sports has always taken precedent, countless television shows I've watched have been preempted because some game has run long but never has a sports game been preempted except once during the Heidi fiasco (which nearly caused a riot). Isn't it time to tell the sports fans to stop feeling so special and use some fair sportsmanship and let someone else use the TV? The only reason we do this is because we're all so scared of the violence and rage that comes from sports fans that we don't dare suggest that they're wrong.

Get a grip, time to let some geeks be allowed to be full members of society finally. You can watch your stupid game later or read the final score in the paper the next day.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[grimmjeeper]

I certainly disagree with what some people call "true" sports these days. Poker is not a sport, no matter what the advertisers say. Video games are far closer to a sport than a simple card game. At least with a video game you have to have some kind of eye-hand coordination to operate the game.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Fned]

replace "White Sox" with your favorite team that plays a real sport based on physical prowess.

Man, way to dis the White Sox. Those guys work hard, no need to be like that.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Daetrin]

Come on, bring out the -1's. Show me how malevolent you really are, slashdot moderators.

Yeah you malevolent moderators you! It's not right to mod people down or insult them just because you disagree with them on a subject!!! It's in the rules!

(replace "White Sox" with your favorite team that plays a real sport based on physical prowess)

...er, nevermind, mod away.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Skarecrow77]

Some of the later era Tribes 1 broadcasts featured a team of broadcasters who got very good at focusing on the action, so good that the previous audio-only broadcasts now became videos you could download after the match, that were worth watching if you were a fan of the game. I think that after they learned the maps and the way the game is likely to flow, as well as the tendencies of the players (Which players do exciting things, and when), a good broadcaster was able to follow the interesting parts of the match fairly well. I don't think you need automated if the broadcasters are good at their job.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Skarecrow77]

That sounds very much like the Tribes 1 games I remember. There were two tiers of broadcasts, the "local coverage" which was voice-only by the 2nd tier broadcasters, and the "featured matches" which were either between two top teams or for an important spot (usually top 5) on the ladder ranking. These matches featured a 2-person team of broadcasters, video feeds (usually available later in the night) done using the active spectator mode, and post-game interviews with either the team captains or top "personalities" on the team. It made for a highly enjoyable community. I miss it.

Top broadcasts were getting hundreds of listeners if I recall.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[vlm]

I guarantee that if I'm at the bar watching a White Sox game, and somebody turns it off in favor of some video game, there's going to be hell to pay.

If the video game supporters outnumber the 'real sport' supporters, I would think not...

Instead of a game of who can be the smartest*, you prefer a sport where the luckiest win first and the best win second.

* Where smartest here means the one who can outsmart the opponent, is better at strategy and can think faster.

luck has nothing to do with it, it all:

1) Which team pays the most

2) .. for which player takes the most performance enhancing drugs.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[lgw]

Ah, yup. Been a while.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[rjstanford]

Try a triathlon sometime - or most any endurance sport, actually. Hills, surf, weather conditions that actually make a huge difference...

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[kent_eh]

We live in America. Majority rules. If ten people want to watch the Sox play, and 20 want to watch Starcraft, the bar owner is going to change the TV.
Not a smart bar owner. A smart bar owner will realize that the guy who just wants to watch the game with a nice beer will continue to come back. The assholes who think video games are spectator sports will be back in at best a year and far more likely never. So the smart bar owner would kick the video game idiots out in favor of the customers who actually support the bar year round

''cause those sports bars only have 1 TV? Or they can only show the same thing on all the TVs?
*eyeroll*

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[grimmjeeper]

"He made a fair move. Screaming about it can't help you."

"Let him have it. It's not wise to upset a Wookiee."

"But sir, nobody worries about upsetting a droid."

"That's 'cause droids don't pull people's arms out of their sockets when they lose. Wookiees are known to do that."

"I see your point, sir. I suggest a new strategy, R2: let the Wookiee win."

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[CFTM]

Erm, right....emotional maturity of a 12 year old....evidence.....Desperate Housewives!

There are MANY professional entertainers who indeed do have the emotional maturity of a 12 year old, but with that said, there is a huge assumptive leap occurring here. You do realize that actors merely modify the prism of the self to act as a bridge between the character and the actor?

If anything, the success of Desperate Housewives is more indicative of our collective emotional intelligence than of the emotional intelligence of the actor.

And since we're pulling arbitrary evidence out of thin air, do you think Anthony Hopkins has the "emotional intelligence of a 12 year old"? Based on his many varied and compelling performances, I would argue there are very few individuals on this planet with a higher emotional intelligence. It kinda goes hand-in-hand with talented actors ... otherwise they couldn't do what they do and be believable.

It's about as realistic as a physicists who only got up to Algebra.

Disclaimer: Hollywood is full of entertainers who fit the definition described above, but those people are a dime a dozen.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[LordArgon]

This is one of the dumbest things to debate ever. Choose your arbitrary definition and I'll choose mine. Then we can argue about who's correct, using other arbitrary definitions as evidence. Our perception of sport is entirely cultural and the sooner we get over the labels, the better off we'll all be.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[rjstanford]

Not that I care about Starcraft, but what makes sports so special that they must always take precedent?

Well, the article is about sports bars, the patrons of which generally visit them to purchase beer and other drinks with the expectation that they will receive an overwhelming amount of sports coverage on a plethora of televisions....

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[TheRealRainFall]

I played several years of high school baseball. Baseball is about as physically taxing as golf. I get as much exercise running up and down the stairs between SC2 matches to get food from the fridge as i got in baseball games in high school.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[gallondr00nk]

I guarantee that if I'm at the bar watching a White Sox game, and somebody turns it off in favor of some video game, there's going to be hell to pay.

(replace "White Sox" with your favorite team that plays a real sport based on physical prowess)

What defines a "real sport"? Every sport is just an arbitrary set of rules designed to provide entertainment for competitors or spectators.

I like watching competitive Team Fortress 2. It's exciting, the commentary on sites like VanillaTF2 are informative and of a good standard, and some of the individual pieces of skill and teamwork are breathtaking. It certainly seems like a sport to me - arbitrary rules designed to provide entertainment for competitors and spectators. Perhaps not to your fancy, but it doesn't disqualify it from being a sport.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[SleazyRidr]

Wait they're just actors? I suppose next you'll tell me that The Simpsons isn't real either!

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[SleazyRidr]

Or motorsport. (Other that NasCAR).

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Braino420]

We live in America. Majority rules. If ten people want to watch the Sox play, and 20 want to watch Starcraft, the bar owner is going to change the TV. And if you start shit about it, they will happily tell you to leave. Money talks. Mouthy assholes who think the world should cater to them and their every whim walk.

No no no, this is America; we split each TV into it's own section and then each section will nominate it's own representative. These representatives will then decide among two TV channels and then _every_ TV must play the chosen channel.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Digi-John]

Being on the new Sci-Fi Channel (sorry, SyFy) seems to make things into giant crocodile movies and professional wrestling.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[dargaud]

Spectating isn't a sport, no matter what you are staring at

And running around after a ball while high on some many custom drugs that make you die before you are 40 isn't a healthy activity either. Choice quote:

"A sport is advanced by the handful of people who do it brilliantly, but it is kept sweet and sane by the great numbers of the mediocre, who do it for fun." — Elizabeth Coxhead.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[tverbeek]

And there's the predictable down-mod from someone upset that I don't want to watch him pretend to shoot at things.

It's about as entertaining as it would be for you to watch me write a story or draw a picture or ride my bike. Just because I'm having fun doesn't mean it's fun to watch.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[shutdown -p now]

If curling is sport, then so is ... well, practically anything.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[IDK]

In a good RTS game the loser loses because he could't foresee an event or he could't figure out fast enough how to stop it. In most sports there may be strategy, but often the better team looses because the other team had one lucky point. How could the losing team foresee that lucky point?

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Kreigaffe]

I'm friends with a Bears fan and trust me, sometimes I get the impression that he'd rather it be a dog and pony show

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[MaXintosh]

Let me sum up this (and many other) comments: "Whaaaaaa! People are enjoying something that I don't find enjoyable! This is unreasonable!"
Newsflash. You might not like Hockey, or Poker, or Starcraft, or Law and Order marathons... but who the heck are all of you to crap all over people who happen to like something you don't? I find baseball boring as crap, but I'm not going to whine about it when other people are watching it. Heck, they show lots of stuff some people don't find interesting at sports bars, and yet the system seems to work thus far.
Don't like sports bars in general? Great. Don't go there then.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[smellotron]

In a good RTS game the loser loses because he could't foresee an event or he could't figure out fast enough how to stop it. In most sports there may be strategy, but often the better team loses because the other team had one lucky point.

I've seen plenty of Starcraft games where a better player lost due to luck. Maybe the scouted areas in the wrong order, or maybe they just baaaarely missed spotting a drop heading towards their new expansion. A good RTS requires economizing the player's actions and making decisions based on imperfect information, which introduces luck into the equation.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[smellotron]

I don't know why you'd go to a sports bar to watch Starcraft when you could play it at home. And I don't know why you'd go to a sports bar to watch baseball when you could organize a pick up game yourself.

Sometimes you just want to watch players who are good and enjoy the game vicariously through them. Playing competitive (ladder) Starcraft—while very fun—is mentally draining for me, and I regularly get my ass kicked. Watching the best players in the world test their skill against each other is always exciting, but still lets me unwind at the end of the day.

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[NovaHorizon]

that definition states skill or physical prowess. I'm pretty sure that means physical prowess is not required if skill is. (also means skill is not required if physical prowess is.) So unless you'd like to state that professional RTS gamers are not more skilled at their game then someone who does not play as often, it would seem to fit your definition just fine.

Also, Curling is an Olympic sport that I would argue requires very little physical prowess, but a lot of skill. (muscle memory to adjust aim and momentum is hard to justify as requiring more prowess than the dexterity of aiming 100+ precise clicks per minute for 10+ solid minutes. And yes, they do click that much and with perfect precision.)

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Another, completely]

At least that has strategy and teamwork. Is bowling still on television somewhere?

Re:Still not a sport, try as you may..

[Jorth]

If somebody is competing in something, I physically or mentally could not do, and that is sufficiently impressive and tactical, with clearly defined rules and a objective. That sounds like a sport to me.

Sad to say

[m50d]

but said demographic can also be very stingy. I suspect a large proportion of them will be teetotal, and many of those who aren't will buy a single drink and nurse it through the evening. So I'd be interested to hear whether the bars actually make enough money for this to be worthwhile.

Re:Sad to say

[LandoCalrizzian]

I bet the bars have record sales of Mountain Dew and Jolt that coincide with major SC2 tournaments.

Re:Sad to say

[hodet]

will also be one massive nerdy sausage party.

Re:Sad to say

[_xeno_]

Man, if only you bothered to read the article, you'd have seen this quote:

"It was unbelievable," said Jim Biddle, a manager of Bistro 153 in Beaverton, Ore., which hosted its first Barcraft in July. The 50 gamers in attendance "doubled what I'd normally take in on a normal Sunday night."

So even if they aren't buying drinks, they're buying enough stuff to double the bar's normal take.

Besides, if you've ever hung around gamers, beer (or really any alcoholic beverage) is a large part of the modern adult video gaming experience.

Re:Sad to say

[Baloroth]

FTFA:

"[the gamers] doubled what I'd normally take in on a normal Sunday night."

I'm not sure why you'd think video gamers are necessarily teetotal. Many are college student. Sure, they don't generally go to frat parties and drink Bud Light, but plenty of gamers I know drink readily. And the teetotalers aren't likely to show up at a bar, in any case, so I think it could be very profitable. Your mindset is likely why events like this haven't happened in the past.

Re:Sad to say

[h4rr4r]

As part of said demographic I bet you are wrong as hell. I drink like a fish, so do most of my geek friends. We also all have wives/girlfriends though.

Re:Sad to say

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

You just aren't selling it right:

It isn't a shot, it's a potion of +1STR, +1CON(Side effects may include; but are not limited to, -1DEX, +1d6 illusory CHA, -1d6WIS).

Re:Sad to say

[Anonymous Coward]

will also be one massive nerdy sausage party.

So where's the difference to football, basket ball or any other sport watching-party?

Re:Sad to say

[jovius]

There actually exists a sideparty of the Assembly Demo/Lan/Festival event in Helsinki that's called Boozembly. The very first Assembly events back in 90s were total drinkfests. Maybe that's something Finnish or Nordic but what I've gathered nerds generally are more wasted (and not only on alcohol) than regular people.

Re:Sad to say

[brkello]

I don't know what world you live in. People go to bars and they drink and eat. If they are going to nurse a drink, might as well stay at home since they are a bunch of introverts. People who watch Starcraft are like anyone else, they are going to go out with their friends and drink. I've actually gone to MLGs...so I know you are clueless on what this demographic is like.

Re:Sad to say

[Andy Dodd]

Yup. Kid gamers aren't people you'd want as bar patrons - they'd get in the way and wouldn't bring in much money.

But I agree with you - adult gamers WILL consume beer, and I think they tend to also gravitate towards higher-end beers that are probably more profitable for the bar.

Re:Sad to say

[anyGould]

I'm not sure why you'd think video gamers are necessarily teetotal. Many are college student. Sure, they don't generally go to frat parties and drink Bud Light, but plenty of gamers I know drink readily. And the teetotalers aren't likely to show up at a bar, in any case, so I think it could be very profitable. Your mindset is likely why events like this haven't happened in the past.

And even the teetotallers will buy a few non-alc drinks and a plate of nachos or something.

Back when those little trivia boxes were all the rage, a half-dozen of us were regulars at the local bar, and while most of us didn't "drink", the bar made enough money from us that our table was always waiting when we got there.

Re:Sad to say

[Kreigaffe]

Said demographic is hardly stingy. Kids that grew up on video games are now adults. Not 18, not 19. 30 year olds. Many of them have quite a bit of disposable income. Many of them drink.

And here's another fun thing. Drunk gamers do not tend to be the violent, confrontational types when they get drunk. Drunk gamers aren't at risk of getting into brawls because one team or another won or lost. Sports fans riot after big matches. Gamers do not. I'm guessing a bar full of nerds watching Starcraft is a hell of a lot more of a friendly environment than a bar full of guys watching soccer -- regardless of how much they've had to drink.

Re:Sad to say

[phantomfive]

If you're interested, read this from the article:

"It was unbelievable," said Jim Biddle, a manager of Bistro 153 in Beaverton, Ore., which hosted its first Barcraft in July. The 50 gamers in attendance "doubled what I'd normally take in on a normal Sunday night."

The expansion of Starcraft spectatorship into the US is great. Now there is even more motivation to pay money to Blizzard while I nurse failed dreams of becoming a pro-gamer.

Re:Sad to say

[rwv]

+1STR, +1CON(Side effects may include; but are not limited to, -1DEX, +1d6 illusory CHA, -1d6WIS).

More Strength, More Confidence, Less Dexterity, More Confusion, Less Wisdom. Yeah... that sums up being drunk.

Re:Sad to say

[gknoy]

And yet it's so nerdy that some of us would try it on principle. I probably would, just for laughs.

"Let's see ... Amber Harvest, Sultry Redhead, Hoofeweizen, Potion of Stats!? I'll try that this time."

Re:Sad to say

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

What sane, right-thinking, person would fail to try at least one upon learning that "YeastMaster's Exalted Potion of Courage" was on tap?

Re:Sad to say

[Muerte2]

I imagine if you're a gamer that DOESN'T drink, then you're not going to a bar to watch StarCraft anyway. The kind of person that is interested in both StarCraft, and watching it in a bar will most likely drink.

Re:Sad to say

[m50d]

Oh, I can drink a fair bit (though mostly due to that other geeky stereotype, being fat). But I wouldn't go to a bar and spend a lot of money on drinks, because from a geeky perspective the cost/benefit on that is all wrong. I didn't mean that geeks can't handle their drink, so much as that they wouldn't want to.

Re:Sad to say

[m50d]

I've seen plenty of the demographic I'm thinking of turn up to bars to e.g. see a band (and again, drink very little while they're doing so). I can see wanting to see a starcraft game on a big screen, in some level of social setting, without wanting to drink.

Re:Sad to say

[m50d]

Said demographic is hardly stingy. Kids that grew up on video games are now adults. Not 18, not 19. 30 year olds. Many of them have quite a bit of disposable income.

Sure, but that doesn't necessarily make them any more willing to "waste" it.

Drunk gamers do not tend to be the violent, confrontational types when they get drunk.

Now you're just making stuff up. Having been on nights out, you get all kinds of drunks among gamers, just like you do in any other group.

Re:Sad to say

[m50d]

People go to bars and they drink and eat. If they are going to nurse a drink, might as well stay at home since they are a bunch of introverts

There are any number of people who - perfectly reasonably - believe that they can spend a perfectly enjoyable night socializing without needing to get themselves intoxicated. (Indeed, the converse seems quite pathetic - do you have to drug yourself before you can have fun?)

Re:Sad to say

[Darinbob]

Especially pro wrestling. Muscular well oiled men in speedos grappling with each other and with folding chairs. Now there's a real man's spectator sport! Feel the love.

Re:Sad to say

[m50d]

I think you get more extreme tendencies in both directions - nerds tend to focus on one thing at a time and do it very thoroughly. I've met some heavy-drinking nerds, but also a much larger proportion of teetotalers than among non-nerds. Thing is, neither side of that is really what a barkeep wants.

Re:Sad to say

[m50d]

Necessarily, no. But a much greater proportion than the general population, I would suggest. And in my experience many of them are perfectly willing to show up to a bar for the sake of some event. (As my sibling post says, they'll still buy some sort of drink, so it's not a total loss - but I suspect the bar makes far less off them than a more typical customer)

Re:Sad to say

[Taibhsear]

Maybe my friends are just alcoholics but after every 5-6 person LAN party I had, my apartment looked like I had a 50 person frat party. Not sure this would be much of a problem.

Re:Sad to say

[dargaud]

Hey, my great-granma loved wrestling. And don't you dare tell her it's all fake !

Re:Sad to say

[Hatta]

I never understood why it was a problem that wrestling is fake. It's fiction, so what?

Re:Sad to say

[Kreigaffe]

I've been to sports bars and geek bars, the geekier bars were decidedly less... exhuberent.

besides, how much damage can a nerd punch really do. the guy watching hockey in a flannel vest can probably punch a hole in the table. the guy in the khakis watching starcraft probably can't even lift the table.

Re:Sad to say

[m50d]

I've been to sports bars and geek bars, the geekier bars were decidedly less... exhuberent.

Probably because they were drinking less.

besides, how much damage can a nerd punch really do. the guy watching hockey in a flannel vest can probably punch a hole in the table. the guy in the khakis watching starcraft probably can't even lift the table.

There'll be a proportion of the nerds who've done martial arts, always is.

Re:Sad to say

[Jaguar777]

I think you are falling for a false stereotype. Gamers are great patrons. I live in Indianapolis and Gen Con is hosted here. Every year I see stories on the local news talking about how the local businesses love the Gen Con attendees. This year I saw the owner of The Ram, a local restaurant/brew house, on the news talking about how great the business was during Gen Con and how his staff enjoyed working during the event. They wouldn't be saying that if they were all sitting around drinking water and taking up space.

Still no channel for it on TV

[elrous0]

Over 1,000 channels on my cable box, several hundred of them dedicated to sports. And not *one* dedicated to videogame competitions. So apparently a pretty niche market (though personally, I would love to be able to spectate Halo tournaments, Arena battles in MMO's, etc.). For that matter, almost no videogames have any kind of "spectator" mode for players who just want to watch (and not participate).

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[Nidi62]

I remember several years ago, USA would show Halo tournaments at like 9am on Sat. I remember I would watch them sometimes back in college on Saturdays after pregame meal but before we had to report to the field house for a home football game.

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[elrous0]

I do, dipshit. But I would still like to be able to watch the best in the high level tournaments. You know, kind of like how *you* have a 2-inch dick but still like to watch porn videos with guys who are well-endowed?

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[cashman73]

I thought they tried this with G4? But then they bought out TechTV, merged the two, and both died a long, slow, horrible death. Oh well, at least there's always good science fiction on the Sci-Fi Channel! Oh, wait!

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[DigiShaman]

I've seen a few Warcraft and Starcraft competitions on TV while visiting Shanghai a few years back. It's the kind of spectating sport you would see among the likes of poker, pingpong, and shuffleboard on ESPN2 here in the US. Unless your watching with others in the same room, it can be rather boring. I suppose I feel that way because multi-player gaming is nothing more than social interacting. When you watch others play games while spectating alone, I get a feeling of being left out. Perhaps that's why broadcasted video gaming events aren't all that popular even if they have niche markets.

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[Yamioni]

I have always thought that World of Warcraft could do well with a spectator mode. Heroics, Raids, Battlegrounds, Arenas; all great places to sit and watch other players for entertainment, or even to learn how to play better. Being able to watch the top raiding guilds in the world plow through Firelands or watch some of the top arena teams compete would be a great way for anyone to learn new strategies and up their game. Or you could just get drunk and watch crappy players wipe/lose over and over; bonus points if you get to listen to vent too. I'd probably end up watching more than playing though, especially if I could hear their lamentations everytime RNG caused a wipe.

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[Iceykitsune]

I thought they tried this with G4? But then they bought out TechTV, merged the two, and both died a long, slow, horrible death. Oh well, at least there's always good science fiction on the Sci-Fi Channel! Oh, wait!

Warehouse 13 and Eureka would beg to differ

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[JohnnyBGod]

Well, I recently got into StarCraft II, and I actually enjoy seeing how incredibly well pros play the game and how all over the place the action is, compared to my typical games on the ladder.

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[cashman73]

Er, you do know that Eureka was just cancelled, right? I bet Warehouse 13 will be canceled in a year. Need to make more room in the schedule for wresting.

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[metrix007]

Warehouse 13 is not Science Fiction, it isn't even Science Fantasy. It's just Fantasy.

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[gknoy]

I'd be frustrated if I couldn't hear the commentary about WHY it's good play, or what brilliant feat of timing, control, or other skill the players just did ... because I sure as hell am not good enough at Starcraft to even recognize it. Announcers make sports more fun to follow for non-savvy spectators, whether it be football or Starcraft.

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[nschubach]

I hear the lineup next year is actually Ghost Wrestling Hunter Zombies... 24/7.

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[tmarsh86]

Warehouse 13 is not Science Fiction, it isn't even Science Fantasy. It's just Fantasy.

Most Science Fiction is straight up Fantasy.... like Star Trek.

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[metrix007]

Not really....for example Eureka is SF. My point was that W13 is emphatically not.

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[spire3661]

Star Trek = Science Fiction, Star Wars = Science Fantasy

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[JohnnyBGod]

Well, that's a good point. I hadn't thought of it that way.

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[elrous0]

Considering the nature of society portrayed in Star Trek, I would argue that it's fantasy too. Putting aside The Force, characters in Star Wars act way more like real human beings than any crewmember of the Enterprise.

Re:Still no channel for it on TV

[spire3661]

You mean a society without a proletariat? It could happen.

What about the bros

[Ryanrule]

Geeks dont like bros. Full stop.

Re:What about the bros

[herks]

Not true at all. Geeks that play starcraft like Brotoss, Brolords, Broverlords, Broaches, Brofestor drops. They like a lot of bros.

Re:Nerds can socialize...IRL???

[TarMil]

There are more people during StarCraft matches than in normal time. Just as there are more people during football matches than in normal time. How would that imply that StarCraft fans go to the bar less often than football fans?

How'd you know where I was?!?!

[intellitech]

"Prefire! Prefire! Hacker!"

"Dude, you're on TV. I'm watching your perspective right now on Channel 342"

Just what I need

[BitHive]

Another reason not to go to sports bars.

Re:Just what I need

[Infiniti2000]

Another reason not to go to sports bars.

Well, I daresay it will even more so restrict the number of women attending the bar. As if having a sports bar isn't bad enough, making some part of it isolated to video games will make the problem (lack of female attendance) much worse. Imagine if a rear section were dedicated to...*gasp*...RPGs!

Re:Just what I need

[BitHive]

Because there's no surer way to get laid than to hit a sports bar?

Re:An untapped market

[Yamioni]

The Grand Theft Auto: 18 shots of rum and costs $200. So they steal your money, then take your keys because you're too wasted to drive.

Don't you mean..

[intellitech]

Golf?

Re:Don't you mean..

[h4rr4r]

Way more action than baseball. At least someone is always doing something, making progress.

Re:Don't you mean..

[_0xd0ad]

Someone is always making progress in baseball: either the pitcher or the batter. And the spectators actually clap.

Re:Don't you mean..

[h4rr4r]

I have seen games that could have been played by 4 players, 2 pitchers and 2 catchers for 90% of the game. Also WTF is up with the lack of a playclock? The game is too slow to be entertaining.

Re:Don't you mean..

[_0xd0ad]

I have seen games that could have been played by 4 players, 2 pitchers and 2 catchers for 90% of the game.

And I've seen soccer games that could have been decided by just having the shootout to break the 0-0 tie at the beginning of the game instead of the end. That doesn't mean nothing happened.

The game is too slow to be entertaining.

That's to give you more time to drink beer. And it's less likely that you'll miss much when you have to use the restroom.

Re:Don't you mean..

[h4rr4r]

Soccer has action, not just boredom.

There is not enough beer in the world to make baseball interesting. Maybe if the players were required to drink it would help.

Re:Don't you mean..

[Duradin]

Golf? The competitive walking with all the heavy stuff carried by someone else activity?

Re:Don't you mean..

[gfxguy]

Obligatory Homer Simpson quote, when sober at the baseball game: "I never realized how boring this game is..."

Re:Don't you mean..

[_0xd0ad]

Ok, so I've seen soccer games where you could have took away the goals and the goalies and had the two teams kick the ball back and forth for 90% of the game.

See, that argument works just as well. It's the other 10% that you watch the game for. And anyway, a strikeout is pretty exciting if it's the right team getting struck out.

Re:Don't you mean..

[kevinNCSU]

As someone who managed to get seats that included an open bar I can say this is CATEGORICALLY FALSE. Wait, we are considering heckling the umpire and players as part of the game right?

Re:Don't you mean..

[m50d]

There's action and variety in the kicking the ball back and forth though. You can see an advantage to one side or the other, a push that got further or less far than the last - and bottom line, it's all over inside two hours. Whereas one missed pitch looks the same as any other missed pitch, and a baseball game takes all day.

Re:Don't you mean..

[_0xd0ad]

There's action and variety in the kicking the ball back and forth though. You can see an advantage to one side or the other, a push that got further or less far than the last

Someone who actually likes watching baseball would say the same thing about it. And if you don't - well, there's always beer.

Re:Don't you mean..

[m50d]

One missed pitch only looks the same as another missed pitch if you have no idea what's going on. Just like one kick looks the same as another kick if you have no idea what's going on.

The kicks, sure, but you can see the ball going back and forth around the pitch. You might not understand what's going on, but you can at least see that something's happening. It's the same with basketball or hockey; I have no understanding of them at a game level, but they're still exciting to watch. Whereas if you don't know baseball, it mostly looks like standing around.

Re:Don't you mean..

[Ambvai]

Lies! Golf is talking long walks on a manicured lawn interrupted by hitting things with highly engineered sticks!

Starcraft II?

[Toonol]

I had the impression that tournament play was still primarily Starcraft, not Starcraft II. Has the sequel really caught on that well?

Re:Starcraft II?

[JohnnyBGod]

From what I gather, there's a big SC2 pro scene, but Brood War is still where most of the money is.

Re:Starcraft II?

[brkello]

In Korea, SC:BW is still alive and well. But SC2 is gaining a lot of ground. There are large SC2 tournaments all over the world now. People streaming their ladder matches get thousands of viewers. Major tournaments for SC2 are surpassing 100k viewers. The sequel has caught on really well.

Re:Starcraft II?

[theangrypeon]

It's where the money is for the organizers, and only those in Korea.

Players on the other hand, are reaping much more benefits from SC2.

Re:Starcraft II?

[Yaotzin]

It's caught on like a house on fire.

Re:Starcraft II?

[obi1one]

In korea, Broodwar is huge, SC2 is growing. In the US and Euope, SC2 is all I really hear about. There are a number of big name tournaments: IPL NASL and MLG being the 3 most well known. With HD web streams and large prize pools, these events are what people go to a bar to see. The smaller more frequent tournaments (often 10+ a week) are promoted on team liquid and reddit

What bars?

[Osgeld]

Not around here.

Dammit!

[itchythebear]

Yet another reason for the bartenders and waitresses to turn hockey off in favor of something else :'(

At least this will be more entertaining than basketball, I hear starcraft players actually incorporate defense into their game plan.
*ducks*

Re:Nerds can socialize...IRL???

[LandoCalrizzian]

There are more people during StarCraft matches than in normal time. Just as there are more people during football matches than in normal time. How would that imply that StarCraft fans go to the bar less often than football fans?

From TFA:

But for sports-bar owners, "Starcraft" viewers represent a key new source of revenue from a demographic—self-described geeks—they hadn't attracted before.

My friends and I always talk Starcraft while at a bar (at the expense of our lady-friend's attention). Now we can do it under the banner of supporting local business.

The Ocho!

[Gunfighter]

When will it be on ESPN8?

Re:The Ocho!

[FlyveHest]

It surely looks like sport.

Correction

[intellitech]

The spectators are actually allowed to clap.

Re:Correction

[_0xd0ad]

You can do anything you want if you're spectating it from your living room.

Re:Correction

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

YEAH! Let's have a "My sport sucks a lot less than your sport" flamewar on a geek site!

ALL SPORTS SUCK TO WATCH! Some are tolerable to participate in.

There. Now it's YOUR turn!

Re:Correction

[cayenne8]

Geez....what's next?

Full contact chess....?

Re:Correction

[Lumpy]

"ALL SPORTS SUCK TO WATCH! Some are tolerable to participate in."

You have never watched Australian rules football.

Honestly it's only weapons away from watching a Quake III arena tournament.

Re:Correction

[Chris Burke]

You have never watched Australian rules football.

Honestly it's only weapons away from watching a Quake III arena tournament.

So, it's Q3A without weapons?

And that's your example of something fun to watch? /boggle

Re:Correction

[edremy]

You think you're being clever and funny.

But reality is far, far too weird for you to spoof.

Checkmate.

Re:Correction

[intellitech]

Checkmade

Indeed. I think he's got us.

Re:Correction

[pjfontillas]

I can understand that if the Chess game is a tie then a winner is decided using the boxing scores. But if the boxing scores are also a tie then the player with the black pieces automatically wins? That I cannot understand.

Re:Correction

[_0xd0ad]

But if the boxing scores are also a tie then the player with the black pieces automatically wins? That I cannot understand.

It's just as fair and logical as the rule that white always goes first.

Re:Correction

[Roachie]

NASCAR.

To paraphrase the great Philosopher, Lewis Black: Insanity is people sitting in traffic all day to go watch cars drive fast.

And lose all their normal sports customers?

[Lawrence_Bird]

How long do you think people who come to the bar to watch football/baseball/hockey/hoops are going to put up with that before finding another bar? Maybe this works after 1am east/10pm west but I still think most bar goers would rather see sports center or a replay of a game. If this is really that popular then someone will open a gaming only bar.

Re:And lose all their normal sports customers?

[brkello]

You act as if sports bars put all their TVs on one sport. Having one set of TVs on Starcraft 2 is not going to matter. Besides, businesses will do what makes them money. If they find more people come in for the SC2 events and they make more money...say goodbye to baseball or whoever else is the least represented crowd.

Re:And lose all their normal sports customers?

[craklyn]

I was present for the opening night in Chao Bistro in Seattle. Their restaurant/bar is already naturally separated into two sections, so they had Starcraft 2 in one section and the normal bar in the other. The bar owners tend to run these events on traditionally slow nights, so there's room for normal patrons and gamer patrons at one time.

Re:And lose all their normal sports customers?

[Vancorps]

Not sure about your bars, but ours have more than one TV, quite easy for a bar to accommodate both.

Re:And lose all their normal sports customers?

[Lawrence_Bird]

Most bars try to have on multiple games and to duplicate left/right front/back so that people on both sides of the table can watch the same game. So yeah maybe on a night when nothing else is going on you get the back room or similar if there is one.

Really?

[chinton]

People sitting around watching other people sitting around pretending to be active? I'll pass.

Re:Really?

[drb226]

You don't watch the people playing, you watch the people playing, aka their on-screen avatar or whatever.

Re:Nerds can socialize...IRL???

[geekoid]

My friends and I talk about starcraft WITH our lady friends. Why would someone be with a lady friend that can't talk to about their hobbies?

You may not like this, but...

[slackbheep]

Sports fans are nerds. The sooner everyone on both sides stops trying to pretend being obsessive about a game and the personalities associated with isn't nerdy the better.

Re:Nerds can socialize...IRL???

[LandoCalrizzian]

My friends and I talk about starcraft WITH our lady friends. Why would someone be with a lady friend that can't talk to about their hobbies?

A girlfriend is more motivated to do things that a wife won't. I chose to fight for the status quo in "other areas of interest".

Re:Better than American football

[brkello]

You are hilarious. Try going to England and watching traditional football. Americans are tame compared to most of the world when it comes to sports. But I doubt you get out much.

Thanks Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

For making a post on Barcraft and not mentioning either http://www.reddit.com/r/barcraft (the place where it all started) or http://www.barcraft.tv/, >_>

It's not like that would have been super helpful or informative or anything. Anyway, as someone who actually attended a barcraft in Toronto I can tell you it's not a scene from Revenge of the Nerds, watching the games is actually pretty exciting, everyone gets pretty into it and there are females in attendance, and not just from guys dragging their girlfriends along for it. (though that's what I did)

And for anyone whose interested in checking out the SC2 scene, http://www.youtube.com/user/day9tv is a good place to start and http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft is my favourite caster. You don't need to be a player to enjoy watching the games (I'm not for example).

Hope to see some of you at a barcraft one day.

It's worth pointing out...

[JustAnotherIdiot]

Geeks are not having the "channel changed", as in they're just waltzing up and changing it, so much as they're having it reserved. If you tell a bar owner "Hey, me and my friends are going to come get drunk over here if we can change the station", you better believe he's is going to give them the thumbs up.

"It was unbelievable," said Jim Biddle, a manager of Bistro 153 in Beaverton, Ore., which hosted its first Barcraft in July. The 50 gamers in attendance "doubled what I'd normally take in on a normal Sunday night."

Some Locations

[Saishuuheiki]

For those interested in where this is actually happening, here's a forum thread which has locations (with map) and descriptions for a tournament this weekend
Barcraft Thread
Barcraft Location Map

Some locations: Seattle WA, Toronto, San Diego CA, Washington DC, New York City, Portland OR, Tampa FL, Gainesville FL, Edmonton (Canada), Honolulu, Waterloo (Canada), Chicago, Boston, Dallas TX

Re:Some Locations

[Sethus]

I'm surprised at the vitriol of the people here on Slashdot. The SC2 community is overjoyed to find a way to get together and enjoy a social game, similar to regular sports teams. I'd like to dispel one thing first of all, these events take place (usually) during major events such as MLG. They are not as frequent as twice a week usually. That being said, Starcraft 2 is a fantastic spectator sport. I think one of my best quotes from reddit I had the pleasure of reading goes like this,

I always meet people who know every single player on some football team or the forward of a professional basketball team and I was always awed by the depth of their knowledge of the sport they love. I for one, have never had that and I could not understand the love of watching sports until I started playing/watching Starcraft. Now I finally get it, I fucking love Starcraft.

Re:Some Locations

[TriezGamer]

The maps used in professional tournaments are designed with multiple spectator positions. Spectators can see anything that either player can see.

Often, a game will have 2 commentators for each language it is broadcast in, and each is able to spectate independently. That's not an absolute, of course.

Re:Nerds can socialize...IRL???

[Desler]

You do realize that the attraction of most sports bars is both the sports and scantily-clad women waiters, in some cases topless, right? Oh right, that would involve actually leaving the basement.

please.

[nimbius]

bars will change the channel and gladly hand over the remote for you to do it, so long as you're a paying customer.

money buys you one more round. if the idiot box plays any role in keeping you sated then its done its job.

Re:Nerds can socialize...IRL???

[Hatta]

This isn't a new thing either. When Voyager aired UPN wasn't carried by a lot of cable companies, including the one in my home town at the time. So one of the local sports bar & grills turned Voyager night into an event.

in video gamers defense...

[Nocturnal Deviant]

Most professional video gamers i know(about 5 to be frank), are all health nuts. they stand by the fact that increased physical dexterity compliments mental dexterity. one of the 5 does parkour, at an almost professional level, the others lift weights for at least an hour a day.

I personally am usually in the top 10%(+/- 5%) of any video game i actually become interested in. I am in no way fat...I am not a complete health nut such as my friends, i drink sodas, i have a normal 9-5 job, i eat frozen foods, mcdonalds, etc, but i still am completely physically fit, and to be honest it puts you in a better place when you are gaming.

Sports Bras...

[Sir_Eptishous]

changing channels for video gamers. Whod thunk?

Re:Sports Bras...

[_0xd0ad]

There's a sports-bra changing channel?!

Re:Nerds can socialize...IRL???

[cayenne8]

Why would someone be with a lady friend that can't talk to about their hobbies?

Because they want to fuck them?

Hell, that's pretty much the only reason any man even pays any attention to a woman...to get in her pants.

You know the old joke, "Why do women have breasts?"

"So men will talk to them..."

:)

I play video games but Sports Bars are for..

[SonofSmog]

Sports bars are for testosterone fueled male bonding and drunkenness not video gaming... Geesh. Now if they had said Counter-Strike maybe they would have something...

Re:Nerds can socialize...IRL???

[Tarsir]

Like the poster above, I can talk to (theoretically) any of my friends about my hobbies. For my lady friend, I have other priorities.

hell to pay ...

[unity100]

had you been familiar with the types who play starcraft, you would know that there are quite a number of psychos among them, and would not talk like that. 'physical prowess' doesnt mean shit when some psycho suddenly knees you in the balls.

Re:Nerds can socialize...IRL???

[Tarsir]

Troll is a shameful moderation for this comment.

Sports bars

[Anonymous Coward]

where you have to lose 60 IQ points to get past the bouncer

Re:Yay!

[Osgeld]

watching overpaid douches sitting on their ass playing an RTS is so much better ...

Aussie sports

[rossdee]

I never got excited about watching Aussie Rules, partly because I never understood said rules, and partly because I had no favourite team to watch. Even before the Warriors joined the rugby league scene I could back the Manly Sea Eagles as it usually had plenty of Kiwis in the team.
I am a fan of motor sport, as long as its not on an oval track. Before I left NZ I always watched "the Great Race' live. Although it has changed its sponsors and name throughout the years, the Mt Panorama circuit is still the best saloon car course in the world.

Not as obvious...

[grasshoppa]

...is that the bar owners are probably saving a mint by not having to pay to rebroadcast the sporting event. I've heard quotes as high as 5/g a month for moderately sized restaurants/pubs to rebroadcast football/baseball games ( with sound! ).

Re:Better than American football

[adeft]

He used too many adjectives I think, let me help: It sucks when you're eating dinner and someone is yelling.

Playing maybe, watching no thanks...

[DarthVain]

It bothers me that so many of these "matches" even make it to youtube. I mean do people actually watch these 30-50min videos?

Now if a Bar wants to have Starcraft 2 gaming challenge, I'm in! Though I can't see that at any bar hear... As to watching a recorded starcraft 2 match, I don't think so. And if you think that is coming on over Hockey, well some geeks are about to learn a very hard lesson in drinking and tolerance to others.

Re:Playing maybe, watching no thanks...

[felipekk]

I used to think similarly. Until on a Saturday afternoon while browsing through FB I saw the news post about the European Blizzcon Invitational. I made the jump and a couple of minutes later there I was watching a SC2 match being broadcast live on the internet with two "expert players" narrating the game. While it wasn't the same as watching your favorite "real sports" team playing a final, it was pretty entertaining. I event went back the next Sunday to try to catch the finals...

SC2 was pretty much designed for being an e-sport game and the matches are entertaining to watch. They don't last long (usually around 15min?), are full of action and you can see the player's skill, mistakes, developing strategy, etc.

It is still going to take a while for these to become a real threat to watching "real" sports in bar just because most of the population don't understand what's going on in a SC2 game, but give it some time and Barcrafts are for sure going to become popular.

SC sucks

[Wingfat]

worst game ever! - I have been to Mexico a few times to a cool bar that plays Anime. They sure do love Dragon Ball down there.

Re:Adults

[Wingfat]

Coward!

Re:Better than American football

[brkello]

That's why I wouldn't go to a sports bar for dinner where I want to have a conversation. He is complaining about something the place is specifically created for. Obnoxious people yelling at a sports bar is less obnoxious to me than this dude who expects a sports bar to be a family dining experience.

just wait for the blackhawks fans to come and kick

[Joe_Dragon]

just wait for the blackhawks fans to come and kick some ass when the game is on and some people want to see a video a game on the screen.

Until Vegas makes book on it, it isn't a sport...

[rocket rancher]

Starcraft and other video games will not be sports until the bookies in Vegas allow it, and they won't. You can't place bets on pro wrestling matches, and you will never be able to place a bet on a video game for the same reason.

Nice!

[danizmax]

Aww I really would like to see that in my country and whole EU. Btw SC2 is good but League of legeds is way better sport.

Blizzard Viral Ad Campaign?

[Bensam123]

There are plenty of other e-sports, including the DotA 2 1 milllion dollar competition that just ended sponsored by Valve... That's a LOT of money and a lot of people enjoy watching DotA type events, yet those aren't anywhere in the headlines here. I'd say it's even more competitive then Starcraft and most definitely involves a lot more fast thinking and micro-management.

I don't know who the submitter is, but I would guess he is on Blizzards paycheck. With WoW spiraling downward, ads like this are becoming more and more prevalent to raise sales to make up for losses. You should see all the changes they're adding to the next WoW patch that they should've done four years ago.

How about virtual sport games?

[antdude]

Like NBA2K, Madden Football, etc. :D

They need to open one in Los Angeles (L.A.)/Orange County (OC). :(

Re:Until Vegas makes book on it, it isn't a sport.

[MaXintosh]

Except you can. MLG has betting markets. In fact, that was a big reason they're holding the next IPL in a casino - so the organizers can get in on it. So, I guess it's a sport?

No thanks

[Kittenman]

If I want to watch TV, I'll do it at home. If I want to play SC ][, ditto. If I fancy a quite beer, maybe some fries and a yatter with the locals I'll go to the bar. Darts and/or cribbage optional (not even I am that old ...)