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Microsoft Wants Your Feedback On Its New Python IDE
First time accepted submitter phoolishcyrus writes "Dear Slashdot: would you kindly take a look at our little project, PTVS — Python Tools for Visual Studio? It helps you develop Python (using any interpreter, not just IronPython) and comes with a few other goodies. Spare no punches."
It's great that Microsoft is starting to support Python!
Votator.com implements a fair voting scheme (free
Wow! It took you three minutes to assess it.
"Note: PTVS does not install into VS Express Editions". It needs some sort of Visual Studio Shell, which is separate from VS Express for some odd reason.
And has Microsoft added the necessary pieces to the version of the .NET Compact Framework for Xbox 360 Indie Games and Windows Phone 7 to allow DLR languages such as IronPython to work in applications for those platforms?
Maybe there's people who already have Visual Studio for other work purposes and also do python stuff?
It seems unlikely they'd make it if there was nobody using python on Windows.
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
you can use the free MS VS Shell though, which is visual studio 2010 without any languages. It says so in the installation instructions.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?familyid=8E5AA7B6-8436-43F0-B778-00C3BCA733D3&displaylang=en
MS is fully supporting Python. I love it!
Where are the Java bashers when you really need them? Oh, they either use patent unencumered scripting languages or go the MS way, but not both at the same time.
Btw. does anyone use IronPyhton and F#, or they just look good in PR blurbs?
This was the same question I was asking when I read the headline. Can I run it for free?
Turns out that you can. While it doesn't support Visual Studio Express, it does run on Visual Studio Shell. http://pytools.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=Installation%20-%20details&referringTitle=Home
I'll have to wait till I get some spare time to compare it against PyCharm which I use and love.
Do you think they are being cute and trying to imply with the name that "Python Tools for Visual Studio" will be available on a Linux system?
If you truly believe that, then your cute reply is probably appropriate.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
I didn't find any mention of Microsoft anywhere in the website or the product name.
Technically, your distributor needs to provide packages for your distribution. Therefor reporting a lack of packages in your package-management-system will be redirected to your distributor, not Microsoft.
But you can complain about the fact that you "can't find the downloads for Windows and Visual Studio directly on the Microsoft website because it is too cluttered up, and therefor you had to download it from a third-party-website (and still no binaries for Linux/BSD/MacOS to be found)".
I find it okay to work in. Coming from VI and the command line some of the features are nice, others not so much. One thing I noticed about the python plugin for VS is that when using PySide, you must run in interactive mode, rather than debug. A nice feature that I found lacking was for VS to automatically generate a list of classes and functions for a library that is imported. Obviously this tool is integrated fairly heavily into python at points as evident in the profiling section ( good work by the way ), so it would be handy to refresh classes/module listings when "import foo" or "from foo import bar" was detected in a save. All in all, not a bad development system.
After using IDLE, Emacs, and Elcipse (on install worked decent, a later install sucked), I'm certainly willing to try it. I like Python, it's just hard to find a decent auto-complete (which, given python, is very understandable - heck, you can trivially add/remove member from an object runtime.)
Stupid python tricks:
__builtins__.__dict__['fool'] = 1 #`print foo` produces 1
__builtins__.__dict__['some variable']=45 #`print some variable` obviously can't work, but it is still amusing
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
Short answer: no
Long answer: IronPython relies on System.Reflection.Emit, which is not supported in the (greatly reduced) version of the .NET Compact Framework API that shipped with the 360. I would expect the next console to support it, though, as the DLR is a standard part of .NET 4.0 and later
IronPython and IronRuby should work on Windows Phone 7, which has the full .NET CF, but you might have to deploy a redistributable version of the DLR with your app (people evidently do this; it doesn't seem all that hard).
Add to that, developers develop an affinity for their main IDE.
.net all day, every day, which makes switching to Eclipse a pita every time I go and play with different languages.
I'm primarily on
(netbeans less so because I used it for Java development in school)
I've been interested in Python for ages, but between all the other languages I've had to learn, and still need to learn, I haven't made the time for it. Being able to use it in VS will make it more likely it'll be one of the next languages I learn.
I don't suppose any of the juvenile asshats here care that it's "Free & Open Source (Apache 2.0)"?
/. reader.
Some days I'm so embarrassed to be a longtime
Whilst you continue extorting $5 per Android handset from HTC your new touchy-feely lets-be-buddies act is worth less than piss froth. So no, I won't even be dignifying your request with a visit to your site out of curiosity.
Oh, and that's a feature, not a bug.
MS ... is trying to be nice.
Maybe so, but only in a half-hearted, sullen, and mean-spirited way - which is admittedly an improvement for them. A cynic might surmise that they're just putting more effort into concealing their embedded evil.
If they were to start releasing some of their significant applications on Linux and/or BSD (as paid commercial packages, like some other vendors), then I'd agree that they're probably trying to be actually nice instead of just faking it.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
MS is the big bully that has had it's ass kicked by the new bigger bully - Apple - and is trying to be nice....
"Sherman, set the Wayback Machine for 1995!"
IBM is the big bully that has had its ass kicked by the new bigger bully - MS - and is trying to be nice....
And the cycle of history repeats itself.
John
Visual Studio is free and open source now! Awesome! Wait this is just a plugin.... nevermind. Sometimes I'm so embarrassed that someone can be a longtime /. reader and still be such an idiot.
Umm, just because it costs money, and it is made by MS, doesn't make it crapware. Yeah, Visual studios is *huge*, particularly if you install everything. But then, so would be Eclipse if you had to combine a C and Java compiler with it, and all the other tools needed to give it the same features as Visual Studio, as well as a massive amount of documentation. What you don't want those extra tools in VS? Then don't install them, and have a smaller footprint.
Sheesh.
Simply put, it handles auto-complete and code folding better than Eclipse or NetBeans, and it is much easier to configure than Eclipse (much more concise layout, for text coloring, for example).
In terms of speed, all three are pretty slow if you want to compare them to Emacs, VI, etc., but only netbeans has struck me as noticeably faster than the other two, and then only barely.
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
Frequent python developer here. I like VS when I'm not using python or Linux (which I'll admit is not very often). Hey, it's would be a good IDE if it was written by Hitler himself.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
The problem with these movies is that they end where the bigger bully leaves town. What they don't show is that the bully returns to his start-of-the-movie-ways.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
And that includes a coffee break.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Bioshock changed me too.
From the Codeplex home page:
CodePlex is hosted by Microsoft. Microsoft does not control, review, revise, endorse or distribute the third party projects on this site. Microsoft is hosting the CodePlex site solely as a web storage site as a service to the developer community. For more information, read the CodePlex Terms of Use.
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
A really nice Python IDE is PyCharm. Give it a try. It feels a little bloated sometimes but it works better than most I've tried. I've went back to IDLE when I'm on Linux and Notepad++ when I'm on Windows. Overall, I think in Python I need way less autocomplete than when I'm working with C#.
English is not my first language. Corrections and suggestions are welcome.
And it rocks !! Both !! At the same time !! Because it's free !! As in beer !! And beer ROCKS !! Until the lease expires !! Then it's just pisswater !! Unless it's BUD !! Then it alway was pisswater !!
It's already expired? TFA:
It's a free & open source plug-in for Visual Studio 2010
Quick Start Guide ...
1. Uninstall any previous versions of "IronPython Tools" or PTVS (if any)
2. Install a Python distribution
3. Install Visual Studio 2010
4.
At point 4, they should have written "Profit" - last time I checked the Visual Studio 2010 (not the Express version) is NOT free.
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
>Would you kindly?
Microsoft, would you kindly ask for our review without using mindtricks and making me question my true origin, as I did check out the plugin after reading that line?
But on the other hand, if you're already locked in for whatever reason, I don't think its a bad thing to have access to such a versatile and portable language such as python.
I program Python, I like MS Visual Studio, I think this is awesome.
Why would Python programmers be averse to Windows?
Nope. They're offering a free plugin for their own commercial software. Basically, they're just trying to shift more units of Visual Studio. Not nice, not evil, just normal commercial behaviour.
Unless of course the Python code produced will only run on Windows. Can anyone confirm...?
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
This used to be a part of IronPython and is now a separate project. They now support different interpreters like CPython instead of IronPython only. Together with AnkhSVN and Mono Tools this makes Visual Studio 2010 a pretty nice place to work in to be honest.
I think Microsoft is moving in the right direction with these kind of extensions. Please make more! (Preliminary Wish List: Bash/Ksh/Posix Shell script extension, Ruby extension, Dalvik/Android extension)
Microsoft's IDEs are very good.
Note that while VS is not FOSS, this project *is*, which means users can take and extend its functionality as needed
WHOOSH!
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
After I tried IntelliJ I'm done with open source IDE; there is simply no competing.
Yes, Microsoft. I will try your open source software, as soon as you port it to an open source OS.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Python is such a concise language, I feel little need for anything like auto-complete or formatting other than auto indent. However, if you like that kind of stuff, pydev in eclipse is probably the answer. The interactive interpreter it comes with has auto-complete too so it's pretty nice.
The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
Don't get too used to the UI. I hear the next version has a Ribbon Bar for Python, which puts 70% of the most-commonly used commands right where you need them. The other 30% of the commands are there too... somewhere.
Well I've been implementing a WinForms project under Iron Python for a few months now, but because WinForms was not supported under the previous released of Python for VS I've been using SharpDevelop (which is actually pretty good, although debugging is a hassle). VS however is one of the nicest IDEs on the market and I'll certainly look at this.
IronPython is really nice, quick and a lot less hassle than C#.
"pull no punches" not "spare no punches"
I am **extremely** impressed. It's, by far, my favourite Python IDE (I'm using it in the free Visual Studio shell...)
One drawback is that it encourages editing python under Windows rather than on a Unix-like platform, but that's something I can live with when it delivers productivity.
I'm yet to use it for a real project - but I'm looking forwards to that experience.
I'd definitely encourage anyone to, at least, give it a try.
So I guess the important question is will it run on express?
If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
...lock you in... dangerous ...
It produces plain-text ASCII source code files. How is that lock-in? Why not use the best IDE/compiler for your code development? It's a free download.
No sig today...
Why would Python programmers be averse to Windows?
Some programmers are religious.
No sig today...
And why would I use this over pydev anyway? I mean if I'm going to go the full monty and fire up a full development environment just to hack on a python script, why not use one that is free, cross platform and supports probably the best python plugin in existence?
The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
It lets the atheists write code more conveniently.
No sig today...
But on the other hand, if you're already locked in for whatever reason, I don't think its a bad thing to have access to such a versatile and portable language such as python.
I'm sensing a false dichotomy in that statement somewhere.
The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
I think you mean "zealous"
Because pydev is for Eclipse and Eclipse makes me want to blow my brains out?
Oh great, just what we need. Another IDE zealot. Eclipse vs Visual Studio is the new Vi vs Emacs. The more things change...
Meanwhile in the real world, people will just carry on using the best tool for the job.
The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
Take your crapware...
You've not actually tried it, have you?
That's a bit like posting in a technical discussion without reading the article. It makes you look like an idiot.
No sig today...
Your sig is ironic juxtaposed with your post.
The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
I'm not for anything else in particular. Love trying new things. Just against Eclipse.
I don't think anyone is supporting Python in netbeans any more.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
I tried to test it, but it doesn't work run on OS X Lion, Linux, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, or DragonFly BSD.
How about this: port your IDE (and compilers) to work elsewhere. Free Software isn't your enemy. Free Software is a "good enough" approach. Visual Studio and MSVC are significantly better than gcc, Xcode, emacs, etc.
Consider: Steinway didn't stop selling $100,000 pianos because yamaha (virtually) gave away $10,000 pianos. Many people (and businesses) would drop serious cash for a good compiler and ide for Linux. Why are you turning down that money?
Whatever, you'd think they'd be happy that there was a new way for their enemies to see/use an open source language.
No sig today...
Hi Microsoft! Thanks for releasing stuff under an Apache license. Now if, for some reason I end up in Hell, at least I know I will be comfortable with a big coat, because it should be freezing there.
I will report to you about the program once I figure it out how to install an MSI on Debian.
Yours truly: the average Linux geek that reads Slashdot.
First all python IDEs I've used stink. Now I have not used them all so I'd be happy to hear suggests but please keep reading. So MS entry is welcome
Second, unless this IDE is cross platform it will HURT not help python programming. Even if you plan just to eat your own dogfood, you mere use of it means that it MS only features wil creep into your lexicon and those of your colleagues. Don't do that. use cross platform tools.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Warning! Potentially dumb question:
What value does a Python IDE provide? Given that Python is strongly typed only at run-time, the IDE cannot perform syntax-completion, rename variables, provide warnings/errors as you type, provide context sensitive help, etc., that you would normally get with an IDE for a statically typed language such as Java. Might as well just stick to using your favorite text editor.
It will not work with VS Express, but it will apparently work with VS Shell, which is free. VS Shell is just the IDE without any of the language compilers included.
I use M-x hippie-expand. Bind it to M-/:
(global-set-key (kbd "M-/") 'hippie-expand)
It's not a precise auto-completer so it won't help you discover what's in the objects (I personally use the shell for experimenting), but on the other hand it'll let you auto-complete in comments or strings. I use that feature frequently.
I'm averse to programming on Windows for two main reasons. Firstly, I use many small tools and some larger ones. When I need something, I just load up Synaptic and do a search, click the checkbox and hit install. Easy peasy. With Windows, I have to go to the website, find the right setup file, hope I'm even on the right site and not some phishing scammers look-a-like. It takes way too long to get my environment set up. Also, on Linux, I have many windows open at the same time and I like to be able to scroll with the mouse wheel without actually clicking on the window. Especially if the windows I want to scroll is partially hidden by a foreground windows that I won't to be able to look at while I'm scrolling the window beneath it. X allows this while explorer does not. I also like the Guake drop down terminal, GNU screen, bash, etc. without having to hack it all on the system.
The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
I noticed you typed something which looks like the not operator. I'm sorry, I can't allow you to do that as it would violate an m$ patent. Please find an alternative solution.
It lets people freely improve the plugin for the proprietary IDE to make the plugin better. I don't see the problem. Obviously they can't fix bugs in Visual Studio but all users of VS are free to use and improve the plugin.
While I do get your points about the desktop, your statement about setup is plain bullshit. You might have trouble finding your desired programs if you are new to windows vs. experienced Linux user, but once the machine is set up, it's done, it's there - there is no more time sink there - claiming that to be a big issue is just wrong.
Regarding your point about the scroll: http://gigaom.com/mobile/scroll-in-windows-without-the-cursor-focus/ - very first hit on google...
I read the docs for this yesterday, came away impressed about things like iPython integration and the idea that other IDE features of VS could be used for Python. That said, I'm stuck with the position that is it simply too much work and pain to use Windows as an underlying platform, when what I deploy to is largely web apps running on Linux/OSX. I use Windows 7 in virtual machines to test sites with MSIE, and Windows Explorer WebDAV, but that is about it -- it is a pain to do much more in a VM. I just do not have incentive to "live" in Windows, live in a VM on my Mac or Linux desktops, or buy another box just to run a platform I have little use for. I would hope MS has intention of eventually trying to make their tools really compete with Eclipse on the cross-platform game. Alright, back to vim for me. Sigh.
I went through a few, which were all awful. I do like PyCharm, but it is not free. I ended up buying it one day when they put it on sale because I decided it really was worth it to have a good, win & lin dev environment.
I've got to say, it's a little sad that three people total seem to have gotten the joke.
your statement about setup is plain bullshit. You might have trouble finding your desired programs if you are new to windows vs. experienced Linux user, but once the machine is set up, it's done, it's there
Maybe in a perfect world that is true but in my day to day work, I am always faced with new challenges that I need a new tool for. Just recently, I had to write a python script to automate logging in and downloading a product spreadsheet for an ecommerce site one of my customers runs. Open up Synaptic and search for python and html, python-mechanize showed up, I clicked install and was off and running. Took about 1 minute. If you are claiming that it is just as easy to meet changing requirements on a windows system than Linux then you are just kidding yourself.
Regarding your point about the scroll: http://gigaom.com/mobile/scroll-in-windows-without-the-cursor-focus/ - very first hit on google...
Good find. I know there's a dirty hack to support alt-click windows moving and resizing on Windows but I'd rather just use the system that supports it natively.
The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
I think the general consensus is that Visual Studio is the best IDE out there with Eclipse coming in second, and a bunch of also runs in the distance.
'cause I run all my Python code in the IDE, amirite?
Karma: Poor (Mostly affected by lame karma-joke sigs)
Actually, that's what I was referring to when one install was ok, and a later install sucked - eclipse with pydev.
I'm not great at remember the members of a given class, and I hate going back and forth.
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
VS Express can't use plugins. That's one of the "upsell" features of Visual Studio Professional and higher.
So to build plugins that's free for anyone to use without needing to pay the ~$400 for Visual Studio you need to use the Visual Studio Isolated Shell
FTFY
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
ANY unix, come on microsoft show how much less you suck than before.
I didn't think so
If it were gay, it would be well designed, clean and would live in a great neighbourhood with good services.
But it would cost twice as much, be only in one color, and you would have to be careful about how you hold it.
PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
My "Why?" question is: Why do people think they need an IDE for Python at all?
I could see people using an IDE for a brittle, boilerplate-filled language like C++, but I don't see how it helps developing in a stripped down language like Python. I've never felt the need for anything beyond gvim with a few tweaked macro settings for Python development. I really don't see the need to overcomplicate things with some kind of "Studio" just to write some code in a scripting language.
I use Code::Blocks. It runs on all platforms so my code looks and acts the same when I'm building on whatever platform I need my applications to run on. If I need my application to run on Linux/Mac/Windows I open the cbp file, add the needed ifndef's, adjust for the libraries, and compile. If you build GUI applications WxWidgets work very nicely with Code::Blocks. Code::Blocks has been doing Python for quite a while now. Python Plugin
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
There isn't even a dichotomy in my OP, much less a false one. There is however an unstated assumption or Implied or Hidden Premise that easy access to python is better than not having easy access all other things being equal. It's not exactly a formal fallacy, but would be bad form it I were submitting the OP to a philosophical journal rather than Slashdot. This being /. I think many or most people could figure out the assumption and would even agree. Even if they don't agree the availibility of compiled python variants in VS doesn't make VS any less usable for them.
Go on...
The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
Uhm. You're wrong.
The best IDE is IDEA ( http://www.jetbrains.com/ ) with everything else coming in distant second.
BTW, there's PyCharm IDE for Python from IDEA creators: http://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm/ and it's really great.
Wow! It took you three minutes to assess it.
To be fair he probably only read "Vendor: Microsoft".
Technically, IntelliJ tools are built on top of free IDEA Community Edition.
Another point is maintenance: the package installed via Synaptic will be updated automatically for you. Moreover, packages are updated in synchrony, so if a security fix needs changes to several libraries, all those libraries are updated for you in one go.
On Windows you have to do all that work yourself. Not just checking for and installing updates, but ensuring that the stack of installed packages you are using function together correctly.
I'm hoping that CoApp will bring something like this fantastic system to Windows. Fingers crossed!
http://coapp.org/
The best IDE is IDEA ( http://www.jetbrains.com/ ) with everything else coming in distant second.
Ah, that explains why I've never heard of it in my life.
Didn't you ever watch the '80's teenage movies? Where the big bully gets his ass kicked by the new kid (bigger bully) that moved into town. And after getting his ass kicked, learns his lesson, befriends the geeks he picked on and they team up and beat the bigger bully?
It sure sounds like a trite, Hollywood plot, but I honestly can't remember a single movie from the '80s like that. Revenge of the Nerds? Nope. Karate Kid? Nope. Three O'Clock High? Nope.
Honestly, it's probably Microsoft themselves using it. You may not realize it, but Perl is actually very big inside Microsoft. A ton of their scripts and other tools are done in Perl.
I'm guessing they also have a growing collection of stuff done in Python as well, so being able to maintain their toolset in Visual Studio would be a definite plus for them.
And heck, even if all you're doing is a Windows app, sometimes you need to be able to script things - build scripts, build tools, etc., so rather than try to munge together something from batchfiles, or an unholy merger of batch/PowerShell, they can also do it in Python.
It's just like Apple adding OpenScript support to their Python, Perl and Ruby runtimes, so you can control applications that respond to AppleScript from within those languages too.
For Microsoft: The only way you guys can return to being the platform of choice is to have the biggest app store. It isn't going to happen. You moved to proprietary languages in an attempt to further your grip and lost it all. There will never again be a "only works on Windows". There is only room for two and Android has already rounded the second corner while you sit at the gate.
For the two people that might not know: Most applications these days are based on Python, Java, and HTML/CSS/javascript, with back ends on Obj-C/C/C++. Microsoft moved to proprietary languages, C# & .NET. Now they are loosing because developers that know C++ (that they kicked to the curb) and all of the languages above, have moved on to applications for the iPhone/iPad or ones that are cross platform. Now Apple is kicking everyone's ass because they have the most applications in their app store. Look at what happened to webOS. Fortunately, Android applications are growing steadily. This is just a cheap attempt to steal potential Android developers.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
Does it run on Linux?
99% of all statistics are made up on the spot. -- Bruce Karsh
Huh? I dind't know that. (shame on me).
WAIT!!! wikipedia (or microsoft) doesn't mention VS being OSS nor is the mentioned license a FOSS license, it's a proprietary one.
Why are you spreading misinformation AC?
-- no sig today
as best I can (while running between meetings)! Thanks for all your comments & questions so far.
Background info:
PTVS is basically a 2 person (1 dev, 1 test) effort. Recently we had a summer intern & a new dev has joined since to work on Big Data (think dryad/hadoop/etc) which is great. We've been running "under the radar" so to speak until now. The parts that we're actually most proud of are that we convinced mgmt to let us do this as Open Source, and more importantly under Apache 2.0. The fact we can actually accept code contributions back (may be a 1st?) is huge too. Not a big deal for most, but trust me, as staunch pro OSS guys, it was a big deal & took a lot of work to accomplish...
Thanks in advance & on to answering questions...
PS Just updated the project page w a couple of videos to give you an overview. Excuse the cheesy production, we don't exactly have a marketing dept.
PTVS - Core editing experience : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CoGsSlrxKk
PTVS - Profiling : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCx7rlPyEzE
As I said a couple of replies earlyer: I can't find any refference on wikipedia/google/microsoft that VS 2010 and later are FOSS, who said that and where is it? And why is wikipedia wrong again?
And why if they opensourced it are they still refusing to publish a native linux binary?
-- no sig today
"Is windows only. Python is a cross-platform language. A non-cross-platform IDE for Python makes as much sense as having a solar-cell operated night-vision camera. FAIL."
And yet, I find that all of the Python scripts that I develop to do tasks in the Windows environment at my office work just fine in Windows (duh). Python may be cross platform, but I bet the majority of the code written in Python is only run in a single environment, or even a single machine. So if I run it in Windows, and develop it in Windows, why do I care that my IDE only runs in Windows?
jesfetzik is correct. You can install it into normal VS, or the "Integrated Shell" which essentially turns this into a "Python VS Express"... but also note that if you're a student, startup, etc you can pretty get the full versions for free.
I use vim for python as well (although I haven't been using it for more than six months so I still have a lot to learn) but, to my knowledge, no auto completion is as good as the one in VS.
That might be a big plus for some people, specially if they can't afford or don't want to spend time tweaking vim/emacs to fit their needs.
Having said that, after learning vim, I'd hate having to use an IDE without it's keybindings (thank God for vsvim and jVim).
"Science can amuse and fascinate us all, but it is engineering that changes the world. " - Asimov.
bigsexyjoe, that's a good question. It's not "MS" that's wants feedback. It's the 3 ppl that work on the project that want feedback. 99.99% of MS doesnt even know we exist :)
Yes, we can go to an MS forum & get nice pats on the back, but we figured you guys will give us some honest feedback we can't get anywhere else.
Thanks AC.
Specifically wrt your point re Python + C++, we're doing some work in the next version to make multi-lingual projects even better (especially in the area mixed mode debugging). If this is important to folks, please upvote the feature on pytools.codeplex.com. Thanks.
I'd like to know what Guido thinks of this.
If I do a new PSA budget, will I have to add a line item for M$?
Wow, 20 years of making sure my indents aren't screwed up.
http://www.python.org/doc/humor/#psa-budget
PyCharm is an awesome Python IDE. If you need a cross plat IDE, PyCharm, PyDev, Wingware, IPython, etc are all pretty good.
PTVS is a Windows only solution, tho it's not that hard to avoid accidentally becoming platform dependent.
When i was working at Sun, we sometimes used VC++ & keeping things cross-plat was pretty easy. With Python it's even easier.
ByOhTek - If auto-complete, intellisense, etc are important to you, you should definitely check out PTVS. It's one of its strong points I'd say. Here's short video overview of the Editing experience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CoGsSlrxKk
To be fair the Zune did lose out to the iPod. That's what the poster was talking about..... right?
Where does the signature go?
AC - brim4brim is correct. The plug-in itself is OSS, but our little group has zero influence on the other parts of VS. Well, who knows, if this becomes a wild success, maybe the rest of VS will follow & open source itself (LOL). So technically you're correct that the entire thing isnt OSS. But people are free to whatever they want with, customize, do a Ruby plug-in. We know of at least two companies that are copying the code to do some TBA products.
At the very least it's out in the wild now & if someday MS cancels us, the community can continue to use/improve it.
Well, I thought it was funny :).
I'm not a Windows guy, mostly. Can't avoid it completely, but I try to whenever I can. Most of my work is done in various UNIXes. That said:
Thank you.
Seriously. Please ignore the haters. Me, I'm tickled pink y'all are doing this work: anything that helps the Python community is A-OK in my book. :)
(goes off to his Windows 7/64 desktop to install PTVS...)
I'm sure many will laud you, and many will criticize, but thanks for putting so much work into making this happen. It's an impressive feat (and I don't mean the product itself).
Try snaked!
Its a materialistic, foss editor with python focus from python programmers for python programmers. You have to spend a little time getting used to it but wont regret it.
And yes, it does run on linux.
AC - thanks for the heads up. I can assure you that I've never talked to or met those guys. I guess I better do that (you'd think we'd be a bit more coordinated than that...). This project was pretty much organic & self-started in the Technical Computing Group (the team that does HPC, Cluster Computing, etc stuff).
AC - PyCharm is an awesome Python IDE. big thumbs up from us. If you require a cross-plat IDE, it's a great choice.
Regarding responding to stuff quickly - I can't speak for other projects, but that's been one of our goals. You can easily check by looking at our bugs & discussion pages & replies (note that we are a small team & don't have support staff). We usually respond within a day or two, usually much less:
http://pytools.codeplex.com/discussions
http://pytools.codeplex.com/workitem/list/basic
I'm fine with that, as long as the OSS shills also stop writing "VS isn't in my Linux repo LOLOL" posts. Seriously, it wasn't funny the first time, can we get back on topic, everyone?
Pycharm does all that and it's cheap (free for open source developers) and it works on all platforms. http://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm/
It's best to not be tied to on platform especially with a language that is cross platform and has stronger support on other operating systems.
Your opinion does not form a general consensus, sorry.
Note that there are some Microsoft projects hosted on CodePlex, however.
I think the general consensus is that Visual Studio is the best IDE out there
How can it be the "best" if it doesn't run on any relevant platform? As far as I can see, it's Windows-only.
I agree, for C#/VB.NET those are the best...
And C++...
No sig today...
AC - your point is well taken. With a language like Python your need for a full blown IDE is reduced. I've found that using an IDE really comes down to whether the learning curve is worth it or not... there are cases like navigating a large new project, graphical debugging, completion, mixed mode or multi-lingual debugging, etc can benefit from IDE support. Is it absolutely necessary? No at all. As mentioned in another thread, even inside MS some ppl live inside VS 24X7, some just use it for the debugger & use vi/emacs otherwise... to each their won.
wrt creating a thick layer between you & your code, we've tried to avoid some of that. PTVS doesnt mess w your application directory structure, the editor stays out of your way (there's even a vi add-in!), etc. check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CoGsSlrxKk
Note that cross-plat minimal IDE/REPL's like ipython.org now have syntax highlighting, completion, inline graphics, etc. as well. If don't want a full blown IDE but still a Python REPL on steroids, give ipython a shot. It has impressive interactive parallel computing features as well.
Another reason: If you want to use a cool new technology on Linux, you google it and you find a handful of Howto files. Follow the instructions and you're away.
Run the same search on something developed for Windows and you get two dozen Microsoft MVPs all dropping vague hints to try and pimp their latest book.
Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
Ditto for your opinion.
poena.dare - regarding Guido: He actually likes us!
We were at PyCon and he stopped by our poster session, asked a whole bunch of questions, was very engaging & then went and tweeted about PTVS. I should frame that tweet...
I think he means "care about stability of their development platform" :)
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
your opinion.
........... man.
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
What are your long term plans for this project? Any chance it'll ever ship with VS proper?
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
What are you, 10? I wasn't stating my opinion. I didn't say it was the best, nor I thought it was the best, merely that the general consensus was that it was the best. Take for example Inforworld's Technology of the year awards... Best IDE for any language was given to Visual Studio 2008.
Visual Studio stands alone as the preferred development environment for applications using Microsoft's .Net Framework, and it's peerless among IDEs for any language.
You may not like Microsoft (considering you appear to be a Java guy), but their development tools are absolutely world class and always have been. Even IntelliJ isn't up to Visual Studio, although they are catching up in features, but they typically are still a couple years behind. The features IDEA added in Dec 2010 for version 10 were available in Visual Studio 2002 (table editting, sql queries, code completion, integrated source control, detachable editor windows). Do the have database, table schema comparisions? Can it do performance profiling? Can you debug/step trace your SQL as it runs? Does your code completion use your comments/descriptions for your internal functions, properties, and methods? Can it do native code debugging (Machine Language/JBL/IL)?
1. :)
2. List of things we don't have:
Marketing rep; Doc person (you can probably tell by looking at our site!); Release manager; PR person; I18N support; Product Manager;
PS Thanks - if this is successful, hopefully mgmt will support more of these types of projects.
Microsoft has been supporting Python for a while. In fact, IronPython is about to celebrate its fifth birthday.
For its 5th birthday it received additional functionality and new branding, it's called P#.Net now. Miguel de Icaza will bring it to Linux ASAP.
"I'm not much interested in interoperability. I want substitutability. I want to be able to throw your software out."
Why? I'm not bursting with rage, I just find the OPs comportment tiresome.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
The developers that doesn't find out about Linux are perhaps the developers that MS can have anyway? :D
Can I light a sig ?
Whatever the OSS fanatics say, this work is needful and valuable. Personally, as I use Visual Studio at work, I'd like very much to use the same IDE for all languages. So keep up the great work!
However, I can't try it, because I use VS 2008 at work and I cannot upgrade it. First, it's not easy to convince your boss to buy new software, especially if the old one still perfectly does its job. Second, all current projects have been being developed in VS 2008, and no one wants to bother with project update problems.
Is there any chance that this plugin could be backported to 2008?
Which consensus?
"The features IDEA added in Dec 2010 for version 10 were available in Visual Studio 2002 (table editting, sql queries, code completion, integrated source control, detachable editor windows)."
Absolutely wrong. IDEA has _inline_ SQL completion support since IDEA9. I.e. you can type 'String sql="select * from ord..." hit tab and get autocompletion for table names. And you'll have SQL syntax highlighting _inside_ the string literal. Refactorings (table renames, for example), of course, will work correctly and inspections will also work on it just fine. Also regexps, XPath, JQuery, etc. are supported.
Nothing, absolutely nothing comes close to this.
And semantic autocompletion based on source code analysis has been in IDEA since forever (2002?). I remember buying VisualAssist for MSVS to make it behave just a little bit like IDEA at that time.
And I work with MSVS daily - it's the best IDE for C++ development. For C# development, IntelliJ produce a nice plugin (Resharper) for MSVS which makes life much easier.
Also, IDEA does have code coverage analysis, schema comparison (with quite a nifty feature - it can work with DDL only, without database connection). It can't debug/trace SQL, mostly because there's no cross-platform interface for it. But that's fine, just use a different tool for it.
It can, of course, show comments and documentation during autocompletion. Autocompletion also work in comments or even in non-source-code files.
In a way, yes, so what? I mean, this is a Visual Studio plugin, if you are not in the market for VS then you are not in the market for this plugin much in the same way that Windows users don't give a flying fuck about Gnome-Shell.
The fact is that I don't see the market for this thing. One uses python because it's a free, cross-platform language with excellent unix support and decent Windows, whereas one would use VS because one sells enterprise software for microsoft-centric business or just MS-centricness in general.
One usually tries to travel the most transited path to get the most out of other people's experience.
Using a python plugin for VS means neither Windows programmers nor Unix programmers can help you out. I mean, yes sure they exist, but I wouldn't be surprised if the main users of this product were it's developers.
No seriously, read this page, right now, the devs are roaming it in trying to turf it as much as possible, being all helpful and shit. It's cool, actually. But that's pretty much the level of interest that surrounds it.
But... the future refused to change.
Second, unless this IDE is cross platform it will HURT not help python programming.
Like ironpython hurt real python? Instead it just went away as most python people don't want or need a platform dependent version.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
While ill get yelled at for this, it would be nice if it had a forms developer too. ( and no, not tied just to winforms )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Or you can use a free as in both price and speech GPL protected environment that won't lock you in like Visual Studio.
How would using it in this case 'lock you in'?
Using Visual Studio is dangerous since it promotes the use of non-free software.
How does it 'promote the use of non-free software'? Pretty sure it doesn't. And even if it did how is that 'dangerous'? Sounds like you're just scaremongering.
May we assume that this could signal that python is being used or at least considered internally in MS. I wonder if this is preparing some groundwork for python being used in Windows 8?
I just can't be bothered.
You seem to be a Microsoft guy, and your opinion is functionally uninformed. A publication that seeks to keep its advertisers happy isn't the most credible resource.
Actually, something does compare - Visual Studio with JetBrains ReSharper ;)
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
Did you just call PHP a "small player"? Zend/PHP is freaking gigantic in OSS land!
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
This is why noone likes GPL Zealots you know. You guys show up in every discussion about a product using another OSS license (in this case Apache) and rant like only GPL is acceptable.
For a start, you know that Microsoft Legal would never allow a Visual Studio Plugin to be released under a viral license like GPL, since you know it would infect the host application.
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
Microsoft's sites are indeed a stinking pile of goo. Take something like Power Shell. Power Shell is awsome. Unix/Linux shell lovers should really be ashamed of how little they expect from their tools - their 70s text-based poorly engineered tools, in contrast to the Power Shell that pipes objects. Now, where does the mortal Windows user learn about it? Typically on non-Microsoft sites. If not by some random event, or actively searching for geeky stuff, Joe Six Pack can spend a decade using Microsft products in the most unproductive way possible, never learning about the advanced stuff. Now look at Apple. It's the oposite. They don't hide the automator, for instance (which, someday in 2020, is what Unix/Linux shell users will wish for). It isn't something you have to download separetely like Power Shell was. It's just there.
Now, last year, I wanted to buy the professional box version of Visual Studio for some number-crunching project, because I keep pinching myself, I can't believe F# even exists - it's like the f*ing Berlin Wall of Functional Programming came down. Coz, you know, Microsoft is the underdog now, and they keep churning out superior tech - that is just a fact (C#, F#, WPF, Power Shell, VS, etc.)
Anyways, try as I may, I couldn't get me a (legal) copy (this is for Microsoft/Brazil). Yet, I contacted all the resellers they listed on their site, but either they were only volume sellers or they sold the old version of VS. One of them had an attendant on the phone that didn't know shit about what I was talking about. They wouldn't sell via credit card/download either. This must because we all live on the treetops in Brazil, swinging from branch to branch, so we have no credit card. It struck me that it would be wise to call someone inside the local Microsoft fortress. One page had a wrong number! Well I finally punch through this wall of secrecy, I get to hear the dumb stupid Microsoftee on the other end of the line sent me to some outdated corner of the Microsoft web orbis that had obsolete info. And then they wonder why there's some much software piracy...It made me angry that they made it so hard for the honest person who felt that it's only fair to pay for their work. In comparison, Linux La-la-land feels like soul food - so many calories you're just happy all the way home. In fact, we get to eat so much starch in Linux La-la-land that we now have a generation of young developer dudes who, even though they went to MITor smth, they actually expect to pay less for their power tools than the blue-collar metal shop owner pays for his power tools. It turns out, the paid-for tools are better...Now, pass me that ol' hippie LSD!
So to end my sobbing story, I would like to say that little poor ol' me thinks Microsoft shows no love for individual developers, and sometimes finding stuff is just hard!, be it info or tools.
In conclusion, they desperately need information designers for their sites. The day they suffer like I suffered, they'll be a better company. Being a fat elephant is no excuse for stepping on the mouse!
As for the pythonista tools, well, more power to them!
Main difference between the BSD license and the GPL license: one is from California and the other is from Massachusetts
So you are saying any "for profit" publication with any advertisers isn't credible. So that leaves what? Blogs? Wait. Small blogs?
Perhaps Microsoft could assist in getting VS to run and install smoothly under WINE?
I want to learn python, so maybe I'll use this as a reason to start. I think the auto-complete functionality in VS would be helpful.
Quick! To the Virtual Machine!
Please ignore the ignorant!
THANK YOU! for contributing to open source software!
I just wanted to say thanks. I spend a lot of time developing in Python and after ten minutes of using PTVS, I'm seriously considering switching over from Eclipse+PyDev. Two problems though:
1) I have an unmodified package installed in site-packages, but sometimes I want to use a modified version contained in the project directory. We usually work around this by inserting the path to the modified package in the system path. Suddenly this doesn't work in PTVS.
2) For some reason I can't step into functions in said packages. Is there a problem with debugging 3rd party packages or something?
Anyway, please keep up the good work, it's looks fantastic. If I can work around these two issues, I'm pretty confident I'll make the switch.
Don't you see, please, before it's too late.... what does a PYTHON do???? first there is the gentle embrace, gentle but firm, the iron squeeze in the velvet coils, then the extension as it slowly wraps itself around the hapless victim... then the final extinction of the light as you are crushed into oblivion and swallowed into the dark recesses that harbor the crumbs of its previous meals! NOOOOO! escape!
Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
Inflamatory adjectives aside, that's deeply debatable. A fair bit of thought went into deciding just what Unix pipes should stream. Bytes were chosen because a byte stream is a universal interface, and based upon that you can add whatever layers of sophistication you need.
Start off by piping objects however and you can no longer stream anything that can't be expressed in terms of the object heirarchy. So you can place limitations on the usefullness of the pipe, and exert some control over the applications (and operating systems) where the technology can be usefully deployed.
This is the sort of thing that probably sounds like a feature when it's proposed in Redmond, but to *nix guys it's more akin to a bug. In some ways it's the problem with Microsoft and Free Software in microcosm.
Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
Maybe if KB2542054 ever finishes its update I might be able to look! World's biggest software company, world's most screwed up updates.
Nice that you made that available under the Apache License and that you're allowed to integrate contributions! It would be nice to have a great Python IDE available as open source. I'll definitely check this out when I get a chance!