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Accent Monitoring: Innovation Or Rights Violation?
theodp writes "After almost a decade of sending monitors to classrooms across the state to check on teachers' articulation, the NY Times' Marc Lacey reports that a federal investigation of possible civil rights violations has prompted Arizona to call off its accent police. The teachers who were found to have strong accents were not fired, but their school districts were required to work with them to improve their speech. Interestingly, one person's civil rights violation is another's 'wonderful little phenomenon', which is how PBS described the accent neutralization classes attended by Bangalore call center workers who worked for the likes of IBM and Microsoft. On its website, IBM Daksh notes that 'To make sure that customers all over the world can understand the way our people speak, every new hire is trained in what we call voice and accent neutralization.' So, is accent monitoring and neutralization a civil right violation, as the U.S. Depts. of Justice and Education suggest, or is it an 'innovation', as IBM argues?"
WTF .. is this real? Wait, how about the language itself .. As a Vulcan, why shouldn't I have the right to teach an English Literature class in Vulcan ? .. And why should I be forced to teach English Literature if I don't know it .. so how about I teach physics in my English literature class, in Vulcan?
And to the DOE and DOJ, I ask how about coming up with ideas that make sense? My civil right to mental clarity and logic is being violated.
As a foreigner, i completely support that. If you have that strong of an accent such that people cannot understand you, you have a problem. Independent of whether you're a foreigner or not, I can't understand ~10% of the people I meet on a daily basis. In rome, do the romans!
"Sorry, but you sound kind of funny, go take this class and we'll try again"
To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
in the US its a civil rights issue
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If a corporation hires you to stand on the street swinging a sign in a tutu, they are allowed. Nothing about asking people to speak in a way that maximizes profits is a violation of civil rights. However government action requiring people speak in a specific way because they want people to talk that way is a potential problem.
It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
Innovation or violation?
Once again, context is everything.
"clear" is an interesting judgement call. I am pretty sure that when used by the state in Arizona, this amounted to selective cultural bias and harassment. That would be constant with the other developments in that benighted corner of the US.
I bet if you talk like Andy Devine or Beauford T. Pusser, no one in Arizona schools bats an eye at your "accent" or worries about the "clarity" of pronunciation.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Why can't it be both an innovation and a civil rights violation?
No, it's a stupid idea, no matter who thought of it. Look, I grew up in Texas and Florida. One of my English teachers had such a thick Southern drawl that even for 'native' speakers it was sometimes a bit hard to figure out what she was saying. I survived. So, I imagine, did everyone else. I even survived learning Russian from a teacher with a pronounced Mexican accent.
It's just racism, plain and simple.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
No. If you are paid to talk to people on the phone, you need to be clear. People whose accents are too heavy - even if they know their stuff - can be incoherent to callers. The employer isn't forcing them to talk that way outside of work, or necessarily even when not on the phone.
In other words, their neutralized accent is a job tool. It is no more a rights violation than being expected to know how to use MS Word.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
I think a key here is that the employees are being singled out. if every teacher had to attend an accent-nomalization class, there is no discrimination.
In fact, the summary even states that this is exactly what IBM did.
If nobody can understand what a teacher is saying, then how much benefit do the students get from that teacher? Those students may be better off staying home and reading a book. Plenty of college professors fall into this category, but most of them aren't hired based on their teaching ability. For those whose job descriptions include communication, a thick unintelligible accent can be a serious hindrance.
That said, if someone has a trace of an accent but he or she is completely understandable, then there shouldn't be a problem. Some of the examples given in TFA I would consider ridiculous. But, if parents are complaining that their children can't understand their teachers, a remedial course to mitigate a thick accent might be beneficial.
When your accent is a speech impediment, you have a problem.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
It's embarrassing for the teacher, and embarrassing for the students.
I took a chem class in college where the professor was just horrible at teaching. I don't know if he just didn't give a damn, or if he was just a really bad teacher who did really good grant work, who knows. Either way, it was well known that you basically had to bring a list of "what the fuck was he talking about" topics to your discussion classes to ask the TAs to explain. I had a brilliant TA who who was saddled with the thickest indian accent I've encountered in my entire life. We'd ask him to explain a topic, and he'd explain, and none of us would understand his accent, we'd sheepishly ask him to repeat again, and he'd just speak louder.
I actually talked to a bunch of the other students about it after class, and we were all releaved to find out we were experiencing the same problem. none of us could understand the guy. We all agreed that when we could cut through the accent, we thought he was much better at explaining the concepts than the teacher, and he certainly knew what he was talking about, but at least half the time it was almost like he wasn't speaking the same language as us.
Now, that's just a single TA in a class that had A. the professor, and B. other TAs to ask questions to. If this was a single teacher instructing the class, and that person was all the class had to turn to for explanation of the topic, say what you want... a lot of people are going to fail that class who otherwise shouldn't have.
I'm not sure how widespread a problem it is, since I only encountered it once in my life, but "people's feelings" be damned, it WAS a problem.
"So, is accent monitoring and neutralization a civil right violation, as the U.S. Depts. of Justice and Education suggest, or is it an 'innovation', as IBM argues?"
Provided the individual is easily understood an accent is utterly irrelevant save for some language classes. One of the best teachers I ever had was Mr. Tsang, my AP English teacher. Nearly 20 years later I still remember examining Shakespeare and Kafka in that class. If you had older siblings or friends who had taken his class he was always recommended. He also had a heavy Chinese accent; when he was in his teens he and his family fled from the Cultural Revolution in the PRC.
I'm a resident alien in the U.S. I do speak English with an accent, though mine is much milder than that of most of my compatriots. Regardless, if I were aspiring to teach children of native English speakers in a school in a country where English is the majority and de-facto standard language, I would expect to be required to conform to certain norms regarding pronunciation. This is especially true in junior school, where children are still learning to speak right and rapidly acquiring vocabulary, and being exposed to a strong accent may undesirably affect their speech patterns.
I am pretty sure you should have used "clearly" in that post title. Which might be just a teensy bit ironic. Not sure.
Just accents? How about handwriting.
I remember my first day in Calculus 2 in University. Half-a-dozen of us were in class, waiting on the professor and discussing what was taught in the class in the prior hour.
All four walls had blackboards that were covered in a scrawl. Our best guess was Hebrew or another Semitic language.
Then the professor walks in and asks "have you copied down everything from the boards, yet?" We were dumbfounded. His handwriting made the average doctor look like a penmanship winner.
Three of us passed that semester. The rest gave up in despair.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
I prefer learning a language from a native speaker (but we don't all have that luxury) however being critical of how someone speaks is not racism. People who cannot speak clearly are in teaching positions where clarity matters, surprisingly someone has an issue with this, story at 11.
Man blir trött av att gå och göra ingenting.
As a reality check, maybe we should compare with what happens at the college level. At US research universities, you get profs and TAs who are there because of their research. Many of them have strong accents. With grad students, it's common to assign the ones with really unintelligible accents to grade papers rather than to TA discussion sections or labs. When it comes to profs, I'm sure you can find people who will recount horror stories of unintelligible lecturers, but in reality I think that's very uncommon. It's not unusual to find profs who have strong accents, and in some cases they may be strong enough that they are initially difficult to understand, but in almost all cases students learn to understand their accents fairly rapidly. The key here is that these people are highly educated, they've usually done most or all of their higher education in English, and they use English all day long. They may pronounce "th" as "d," but they are smart people who know how to use words precisely. It works. Nothing bad happens (except in a tiny minority of cases).
So if it's good enough for Berkeley or Harvard, why is it not good enough for an elementary school in Phoenix?
Of course the answer is that this isn't really about the quality of teaching, it's about xenophobia.
BTW, kids don't emulate their teachers' accents. They generally make fun of them. They get their accents from their friends, from TV, from music, and, to a lesser extent, from the people they interact with in the community.
The real issue is whether these teachers use correct grammar and diction, know how to punctuate a sentence, etc. That has nothing to do with their accents. We already have mechanisms for making sure that people who teach our kids to write an essay are able to write a good essay themselves. These mechanisms don't always work (mainly because market forces make it impossible to set the bar too high), but that has nothing to do with accents.
The slashdot story's comparison with Indian call center workers is ridiculous. When you're on the phone with someone you've never met, it's much harder to understand that person's accented speech than it would be in person with someone you were familiar with. The call center workers' job consists of nothing but talking to people on the phone, all day. Of course it's a bigger deal for them to have neutral accents.
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I had a similar problem at University, our structural engineering lecturer had a thick accent and interesting pronuciations, we would be sitting there with our text books trying to work out if the word he used was a new term we had to learn or an existing one we should already know.
From memory I was one of about 15 people in my entire year that passed the course, and that was primarily due to my residential college having additional tutoring available.
Sara
Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
Republicans, you mean the same ones that want to roll back various civil rights legislation and voting protections? Don't you think that the repeated attempts to disenfranchise minority voters has something to do with the interpretation?
It's easy to pretend like motivation doesn't have anything to do with it, but at the end of the day if you come from a party that's known for racist behavior it can take a long time for the reputation to die. Even longer if you're actively encouraging it with overtly xenophobic rhetoric.
It's not civil right violation to be asked to speak clear, but it is to be pressed to speak without your native accent. It's not about teaching Shakespeare in Vulcan, it's about being able to teach it in Texan English, Hiberno English, Canadian English or whatever.
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Time is all that's needed. My grandmother called my mom her "little anchor baby" (in Spanish of course). My mother speaks decent English despite the fact that her mom only wanted to teach her Spanish. There wasn't a way around learning English when you're surrounded by it daily. The long and short of it is this: I'm a second generation American, speak abysmal Spanish, and despite my olive skin am as much of a Star Wars loving George Lucas hatin' gringo as the rest of you. Just give it a few generations and we'll be complaining about those damned Englishmen who take all of the jobs and refuse to learn English.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
Government versus private entity isn't relevant, however US versus Indian law is very important indeed. Given what a cash cow call centers are in India, I'd be surprised if it wasn't legal.
I am pretty sure you should have used "clearly" in that post title. Which might be just a teensy bit ironic. Not sure.
That's okay, Avril - we already knew you didn't write your own songs.
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I applaud the efforts of the Arizona officials. A smooth English accent makes the speaker sound smarter and more attractive. I hope my children can learn to speak with English accents instead of the muddled Mid-Atlantic American that is so common in these parts.
Yes, I can imagine a case where a teacher's English is so bad it is a real impediment to learning. But I would only agree to taking action in pretty extreme cases.
business needs to do with the overseas help desk and other customer service.
Freshman physics discussion group, led by a postdoc from India. First day, he kept talking about "el squaw". The whole hour was about this Hispanic Indian maiden and her relationship to other constants. Went home and read the chapter. The young woman turned out to be L squared.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
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Someone from South Carolina thinks they speak normally and that the person from the Bronx has a funny accent; the person from the Bronx thinks the reverse; and a person from London thinks they're both nuts, innit? Mid-west American and "BBC English" are supposed to be widely understood by American and UK English speakers, but they are still accents.
The example given in the article is ludicrous: 'the state had written up teachers for pronouncing "the" as "da," "another" as "anuder" and "lives here" as "leeves here."' That's not a barrier to communication, that's regional prejudice. I wonder if there are any people from Boston teaching in Arizona and whether they would pass the test.
It depends on the people you select to be critical of. If they are all African-American or Hispanic, while the teacher from Glasgow gets off scott free, then yes, it probably is racism.
BZZZT! I'm sorry, that's incorrect!
If the Democrats did it, The Republicans would say it's a leftist nanny state plot to interfere in our lives and destroy American individualism.
If If the Republicans did it, the Democrats would call it a xenophobic fascist conformism.
Either way, the Libertarians would insist that if the kids want an education, they can go work in the copper mines and hire a private tutor on their own time. The free market will fix it, it fixes everything.
According to the Tea party, nobody should do it, they're taxing me, we gotta quit taxing people and handing out these accent subsidies! Now where's my damned medicare check?
Thank you for playing KNOW YOUR POLITICAL MEME!
Its about bloody time you blokes learned to speak the Queen's English!
Have gnu, will travel.
We have this problem at my university. Particularly with grad students, we get some with very, very heavy accents and garbled English. Ok well maybe you could try and argue this would all be fine if all the foreign students were from the same place. To them, the accent would be "normal" and you could say the native English speakers need to suck it up and deal, since when you natively speak the language dealing with accents is easier.
Things is, that's not the case. We have students from China, India, Europe, the Middle East, and so on. All of course have different accents, different problems with the language. So how fair is it to the undergrad from Kuwait to ask him to not just learn a second language, but then be able to deal with a Chinese grad student who is badly mispronouncing it, and then an Indian grad student doing the same, but in a different way?
Then think about the same situation for primary education, when language skills are less developed. How fair would it be to a third grader who immigrated from Mexico, who's still working on language in general never mind English, to be taught by someone who has a heavy Chinese accent and speech errors? How well do you think that child will learn?
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There are specialists in making you sound appropriate for whatever role.
There are many who specialize in making Canadians sound more like Americans.
When part of your job is communicating and being understood, a strong accent could interfere with your ability to do the job.
If you're doing it to improve customer service by making sure that everyone can understand everyone else through a global network of call centers, it's innovation. It's the vocal equivalent of requiring employees to wear uniforms when they're interacting with customers. If you're doing it because you don't like Hispanics who are CLEARLY illegal immigrants because their first language isn't English, rights violation, or at least discrimination. PS French isn't my first language, yet the French people I know seem to really appreciate my effort to speak their language, in spite of an American accent.
Yeah, it's 2011 now.
Is even more serious. I work at a university with lots of foreign students so I get a lot of exposure to accents of all types. However for a good number of our foreign grad students, it goes beyond just an accent, it is straight out poor English skills. The easy way to tell is if the "accent" continues in e-mail, the written word. You, for example, do not. Your written word gives away no hint that you have anything but a mastery of the language. Someone would need to hear you speak to determine that you weren't a native speaker.
However we have plenty of students that is not the case for. They send in an e-mail for support that, well, has an accent. The language is misused and done so in a particular way that you can hear it in your head in the accent. Verbs are incorrectly conjugated, word order is mixed up, terms are used improperly and so on.
That isn't just an "accent" that means their English skills are poor. However you'll see people try to pass it off as such. "Oh they just don't like my accent." No, that isn't the real problem, the problem is you are improperly using the language. You are trying to lean on the fact that you are not a native speaker as an excuse for not improving your skills.
It's easy to pretend like motivation doesn't have anything to do with it, but at the end of the day if you come from a party that's known for racist behavior it can take a long time for the reputation to die. Even longer if you're actively encouraging it with overtly xenophobic rhetoric.
Didn't take long for people to forget that the Democrats were the racism party.
In uni I had lecturers from China, India, Sri Lanka, Malaysia among other places. I could understand them. The two hardest to understand were one lady who was extremely soft spoken. Had to sit in the front to hear her, even with a mic. The absolute hardest was a scottish guy. I had no idea what he was saying, even with a presentation up that he was speaking to. And english was his native language! All the foreign nationals put more effort into learning a second language than he did his first.
Yay me!
Where do we begin? How about starting with a simple civics lesson. People of India (the country in which Bangalore rests) do not have the same rights as the people of the US.
We could move on to another civics lesson: An investigation does not mean that something has been done wrong. It simply means someone thinks perhaps something was done wrong. (I know the pesky media want to equate investigation with being guilty, but that isn't how it really works.)
Beyond that, in one case people are told up front that they will be given the class. Contrast this with someone being on a job and the first they know about the program is when their boss tells them they must take additional lessons. Yes, there is another difference.
Call centers in India have good reason to Americanize (not "neutralize") the accents of the workers there. But the Arizona case reminds me of my grandfather, who was born and raised in a certain rural area of Canada, and got a job teaching in the same area. So if ever there was a local accent, it was my grandfather's. But some fool administrator with a Scottish brogue so thick nobody could understand him sat in on one of my grandfather's classes and marked him for his "foreign" accent, which in his ignorance he didn't recognize as a local variant. I sincerely hope nobody is doing something like that in Arizona.
I had a math teach who couldn't pronounce the word "X" after he had a stroke. We all hated him because he was so boring to listen to -- he had lost a lot of his speech. Reflecting back, we all acted like spoilt arrogant asses. The guy was doing his best, and we certainly didn't try. Apparently he was a math genius, and we weren't interested in math.
At some stage, children have to learn to drop their sense of entitlement in order to become adults.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
If they are all African-American or Hispanic, while the teacher from Glasgow gets off scott free, then yes, it probably is racism.
So, if you're doing something based on race, it's probably racism? I agree with you. Did you read what I was replying to? I'll quote it for you:
No, it's a stupid idea, no matter who thought of it. Look, I grew up in Texas and Florida. One of my English teachers had such a thick Southern drawl that even for 'native' speakers it was sometimes a bit hard to figure out what she was saying. I survived. So, I imagine, did everyone else. I even survived learning Russian from a teacher with a pronounced Mexican accent.
It's just racism, plain and simple.
He said "it's racism plain and simple." to which I replied: Being critical of speech is not racism. Period.
To reply to your hypothetical situation:
It depends, do they all pronounce things incorrectly (enough to meet whatever requirements for disqualification & metrics which do not involve ethnicity) while the guy born in Glasgow and raised state side does not? Just because they're "white" doesn't mean they're safe either. I know Glasgow is in Scottland, however next door to them are the Irish had it rough in America in the past. My point still stands: being critical of someone's speech does not make you a racist. For it to be considered racism you'd need to successfully argue that accents are ethnically inherited traits. Which is not the case, if anything it should underline the difficulty of mastering a language.
Man blir trött av att gå och göra ingenting.
It's just racism, plain and simple.
The hell it is. You are blatantly misusing the word "race" which is wholly independent of linguistics. A black person in the UK has a completely different accent than one in Harlem than one in Haiti. "Racism" indeed.
"We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
I'm with Lauren in thinking even the Scottish shouldn't be allowed to teach an English class:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxB1gB6K-2A
Apropos video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FevVfmog4JA
--
BMO
Whether you're a public or private provider, discrimination based on accent is either legal or it is not. But do you expect the Indian wage slaves to complain about language training if it gets them a job?
Only in America would people think their rights are being violated when they're told to speak clearly in English when doing a job that requires communication. Oh, and Quebec, of course -- they'd have an issue with the "English" part of it. *LOL*
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
If you can't pronounce the words properly, don't teach the language. It's very simple, and no discrimination necessary. In fact I'm sure they'd be willing to have telephone screeners, then there'd be no way for the person to know the nationality or color of the person on the other end of the phone speaking mangled English.
I don't know about you, but I hate it when I can't see the blackboard because the teacher's speaking.
If you can't speak English clearly and articulately, then you are simply not qualified for a job whose primary duty is to communicate various sorts of information by means of the spoken English language. It doesn't matter if the particular accent is mexican, brazilian, italian, french, russion, one of those clicking languages, chinese, due to some genetic or birth defect, or the result of an injury. It is not a civil rights violation to discriminate against such people, it is simply common sense. You wouldn't hire a lifeguard who couldn't swim would you?
Northeastern US here.
In my experience, the accent of those from other US regions or other English-speaking countries is more understandable than the accent of a non-native.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
The Civil Rights act of 1964 was put in place by a Democratic administration. Kennedy and Johnson were Democrats, not Republicans. Or else your accent prevents me from understanding what the crap you are talking about.
See my reply to theArtificial. I know what race is, I know what regional / ethnic accents are.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
It is biologically impossible for you to be a Vulcan, as they do not exist, so your argument is invalid.
And demonstrably stupid.
QED.
"My God...it's full of trolls!"
Professors are a lot of the time paid mainly for research and to work with graduate students, undergrads really are just and afterthought. A lot of his graduate students may very well be from india.
Yes, and ultimately, I have a feeling that it has less to do with changes to the Democratic party and more to do with the combination of changes to the Democratic party and changes to the GOP. I doubt that it would have happened so quickly if not for the GOP changing.
Also, during 60s or there abouts, much of the racist presence in the Democratic party left for the GOP. They weren't particularly liberal to begin with, but the changes were just enough to make them leave. IIRC that had something to do with some of the civil rights legislation that Johnson signed into law.
I checked out the latter link and it by itself showed signs of the problem: It described the accent-correcting application which was written in that new language "VB or 'Virtual Basic'" (SIC) and using "structured Query Language" (SIC). Pathetic.
Sorry, I can't stand it.
While many of the customers on that particular support line would of been American, I was not.
What you meant there was "would have been". Using "would of been" indicates to an educated person that you are practically illiterate, and don't understand what you are saying, and thus your entire point is missed because you portray yourself as not having enough of an education to respond adequately to any subject.
Seriously, look those two words up in the dictionary, and figure out why it's so retarded and infuriating to anyone with a decent vocabulary when people write things the way they are used to saying them without knowing what the phrase actually means, or how their accent has colored their ability to communicate.
I'm not saying that you are stupid, I am merely pointing out that you look stupid when you say things as you have spoken them, rather than as they are actually supposed to have been written.
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License.
I spent about a year doing some work for the Seattle school district but quit shortly after I found out there were multiple teachers in the district that they had to hire "translators" for because the teacher could not effectively communicate.
I recall my dad mentioning how his family had been a bit overzealous about not speaking Italian at home.
I think being able to speak the language of the new country is a fair request to make of immigrants, even if they retain their native language amongst themselves. This is especially so for young people who learn new languages better than older people. It seems mainly like an issue of efficient/effective communication.
All of the bilingual this, bilingual that (namely, English and Spanish) is aggravating and reeks of being overly accomodating.
Immigrants and/or minorities not cooperating does seem to contribute to such tensions.
I've taken a harsher stance against illegal immigration lately, but I've long since thought like this on the language issue.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
Like I said in a previous comment:
The accent of those from other US regions or other English-speaking countries (Scotland in this case) often seems more understandable than the accent of a non-native.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
An accent that is detrimental to learning a specific language should not be allowed. Also, back in my day, we called that problem a speech *impediment*, because it IMPEDES proper and basic communication.
I don't know about Chinese, but Russian has fairly large number of loan words. Most of them did not originate from English, though. They have words form Latin, Greek, French and Germen, mostly. At least some of the examples that you quote as loan words in Korean and Japanese, would work probably even better in Russian, though. Computer would be either "compjuter" or "vychislitjelnaja machina", in the first case it is a complete loan word, in the second case at least the second word is a loaner.
AccountKiller
In US law, 'discrimination' relating to a certain characteristic is allowed if the characteristic really is essential to the job.
I can see how "not having a really thick accent" might fall under that for teaching jobs.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
I agree that is the students cannot understand the teacher, it is a serious problem. However, I don't think that is what TFA talks about. They are talking about people who already work as elementary or middle school teachers. They had to pass fair amount of teacher education classes and exams, and people that are completely unintelligible would be already filtered out. They are talking about people that have a noticeable accent, that could make them somewhat harder to understand, but not unintelligible. Good teachers are hard to find, and if any of my kids had a good teacher with an accent, and I learned that the school administration is giving the teacher a hard time because of the accent, I would personally raise a stink to high heaven, and give the administration hard time myself.
I agree with you that people who are bad teachers should not teach. However, my experience with American schools seems to tell me that accent is rarely the problem. My kids had some excellent teachers, some with a slight accent, but they also had some horrible teachers. The reason the teachers were so horrible had nothing to do with their accent or language, but with the fact that they either were mindbogglingly stupid, or they new absolutely nothing about the subject they were supposed to teach. My impression of the American education system is that these problems are both much more frequent and much more serious than problems with accents. In that light, policing teachers who have a "noticeable accent" and forcing them to take pronunciation classes seems to me at best a complete waste of resources and time.
AccountKiller
The Civil Rights act of 1964 was put in place by a Democratic administration. Kennedy and Johnson were Democrats, not Republicans. Or else your accent prevents me from understanding what the crap you are talking about.
Why not read it yourself? Votes:
The Senate version:[12]
Democratic Party: 46-21 (69%–31%)
Republican Party: 27-6 (82%–18%)
The Senate version, voted on by the House:[12]
Democratic Party: 153-91 (63%–37%)
Republican Party: 136-35 (80%–20%)
You'll notice that in both the house and the senate, a greater percentage of Republicans voted for the bill, than did Democrats.
Battlemaster--Game with friends in medival realms
In Madrid they had to kindly ask teachers to moderate their accents while in the classroom, because some where using common street pronunciations that where plain wrong like saying "Madriz" instead of 'Madrid', or saying "fogo" instead of 'Fuego'
*** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
I'm not a racist. I don't hate people from other religions or places of origin. But I really don't like the notion of a teacher with poor skills in English including accent. If we as a culture have anything at all to be proud of it rests in the body of literature common to England and America. I can live with the fact that some defects are genetic and do not reflect upon the person. The axed instead of asked problem is one and the R sound to some Japanese is more than a challenge.
But I have seen teachers that simply were not capable of speaking on a fifth grade level who were born in America. I am convinced that we have teachers that have never actually studied a subject in their entire lives. They went to college and parroted what they were told and get credentials and the end result is awful. Now we have all kind of junk diplomas and many teachers have degrees from these nonsense establishments. We have released barbarians upon our kids.
I really don't care what subject or grade level a teacher is assigned to but being well read and well spoken are essential precursors for any teaching position. I don't care if it is a gym coach. I want a fairly deep understanding of the body of classic English literature for every employee in the schools right down to the kitchen help and custodians. Kids need good roll models.
See my reply to theArtificial. I know what race is, I know what regional / ethnic accents are.
Just just don't seem to know how to separate them when thinking.
"His name was James Damore."
They had to pass fair amount of teacher education classes and exams
The demographic breakdown of teachers also have to pass affirmative action quotas. Guess which one wins?
"His name was James Damore."
All I'm going to say is:
"HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE"
But yeah, fuck this shit. I'm perfectly fluent in english and french, yet (go figure) I'll actually adopt an accept in either language if I feel it will help the other party understand what I'm saying. Make the wife every time we catch a cab home, as I turn my smooth french into "immigrant french" and accent it up, because somehow my drunken habits have decided that's the best way to converse with taxi drivers.
Accents are a product of your first language. The fact that English is essentially a mash-up, a hybrid language, should exclude it from accentism. Even those from the United Kingdom aren't really native English, because English itself is a rehash of old frankish, french, and god-knows-what. Those of you who speak a "real" old-world language know what I mean... English is just cobbled together. It is dominant, but that does not make it an authority.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
Virtual Basic is so new that you've never even heard of it.
Perhaps a breakdown by party would be helpful to you. Kennedy was dead, and the act was legislation - not administrative. Johnson was instrumental in its passage, Kennedy never could have gotten it through Congress. Johnson twisted a lot of Democrats arms, but not nearly so many Republicans. Both parties are very different than the parties were in 1964, the historical legacies of each party is largely BS, but the historical facts remain a matter of record.
The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
Because the people of New Orleans don't speak with Cajun accents. They sound more like New Yorkers. Which I can understand just fine, thank you.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
It's yet more evidence that lopsided trade is stupid. The math models for claiming lopsided trade is better than tariffs is outdated and flawed, relying on over-simplistic assumptions and misleading case histories. Time for a flush.
Table-ized A.I.
Wadda yu friggin talking bout?
Teaching proper language skills to students is a job requirement.
Requiring a teacher to teach a without an accent is appropriate where the students are learning the language. That is why schools ask for native Spanish speakers to teach Spanish.
One picks up accents that they are exposed to. Do you want students learning "proper" language? Of course when teaching post secondary, it is not important as the language skills are solidified.
Fight Spammers!
It's not civil right violation to be asked to speak clear, but it is to be pressed to speak without your native accent.
Isn't this really a question of marketing? "Accent neutralization" or "voice neutralization" is definitely evil. OTOH if your employment comes with the perquisite of "free elocution lessons" there can hardly be any complaint, can there? ;)
If you native accent is a (more or less) standard flavour of English --and Standard Indian English pronunciation is every bit as much as say Australian or American English standards a proper pronunciation --then yes, I agree, it is mere chauvinism not to recognise that English can be spoken to more than one standard or regional variation.
However if you are learning any (living) language as a "second" language, part of the task is to learn a pronunciation of the language sufficient standard to be easily understood by native speakers of that language. Judging by the output, I feel that there is too much stress on grammar and too little on elocution in much ESL teaching. I had quite a time trying to decipher "wartal" when the (Chinese) guy on the desk next to me was trying to say 'virtual,' just today. We can surely deal much more easily with grammatical errors such as "asked to speak clear [sic]" if we can at least understand the words being uttered. Then again, I'm not an ESL teacher and judging teachers by their students (who don't necessarily make the effort to learn absolutely everything taught to them) is perhaps unfair.
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
Which might be just a teensy bit ironic. Not sure.
Depends on how pedantic you want to get about the meaning of 'ironic' <g>
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
What if someone pronounces nuclear as nucular - is it considered as a non-native accent?
"Reality"
No, it's a stupid idea, no matter who thought of it. Look, I grew up in Texas and Florida. one of my English teachers was dumb as a post, so much so that she just told blonde jokes instead of teaching. I survived. So, I imagine, did everyone else. I even survived learning math from one teacher who couldn't add fractions, nor answer any questions about geometry.
It's just racism, plain and simple.
Incompetence is incompetence. If, as a teacher, something about you makes it difficult to learn, then you are a poor teacher. People who are poor at their jobs should either work to improve their performance or find something they are good at.
What is this 'unaccented English' of which you speak?
I'd say the Queen's English.
A rule of thumb for the "understandable accent": if someone educated in that has a hard time understanding what you say, your accent is probably too thick.
Circumcision is child abuse.
That dawned on me one night when I was watching locally rebroadcast CNN and they had an interview with the King of Tonga. He was speaking in perfect Oxford/BBC English and some CNN idiot had not only subtitled it but at times got the subtitles wrong.
If viewers can't even work out BBC English what hope do they have with the mild regional accents in Dr Who or more importantly a visitor from another State?
In my opinion children should be exposed to different accents.
Oh man, thank you. It amazes me that there are people around who still fall for the whole us vs. them game. I've lived in this country for just 5 years, and even I already get it. How can someone miss something so glaringly obvious for an entire lifetime?
weinersmith
I love the irony of a racist complaint about put-upon white guys having to put up with poor English being written by some arse who doesn't realise that English does not capitalise random words like "White" or "Ilegal Aliens" just because they're important in what passes for his mind. AC, try again, but in German. Then you can live out your sub-Aryan fantasy in full.
WTF has concision or prolixity got to do with accent or place of origin?
My point was that the Democratic party didn't have any trouble shedding the racist side of its image, even though it was far more racist for about a century through to the 50s and 60s than either party is now. That reputation died fast.
I figure the same courtesy will be extended to the Republicans when it is convenient for various ethnic groups to do so.
You seem to be mistaking Avril Lavigne, who is known for such songs as Sk8r Boi and Complicated with Alanis Morissette, who is known for writing a song called Ironic, in which the only actual irony was that the song had nothing to do with irony.
It's ok... they're both Canadian. You're allowed to confuse us all. I do know Bob from Calgary, but he never mows his lawn and his igloo is in really bad repair.
Yeah, you can say that, and you're technically correct, but your actual point is simply wrong. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was put in place by a Democratic administration with the overwhelming support of the Republican party over the screaming objections of a significant minority of the Democratic party. The reality is that the vote in Congress was strictly North vs South. It had nothing to do with political party membership (as another replier to your post has pointed out). At that time the Republican Party was the party of the North, the Democrats of the South and North. The Southern Democrats left the Democratic Party because of that law, and joined the Republican party, took over it from the pre-1964 Republicans, and made it the monstrosity it is today.
So yes, the Democrats passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 because there were so many of them that the Republicans were irrelevant to the vote (you'll notice from one of your other repliers that there were 67 Democrats in the Senate and just shy of 50 voted for the act, but the Republicans voted yes by a larger margin--their votes just didn't matter as much because they were such a minority party). The Democrats did NOT pass the act over the objections of Republicans, they passed it over the objections of other Democrats.
In short, talking about the pre-1968 parties (the shift began in 1964, continued in 1968, and was more or less finalized by the election of 1972) as if they were the same parties as today is moronic.
So how fair is it to the undergrad from Kuwait to ask him to not just learn a second language, but then be able to deal with a Chinese grad student who is badly mispronouncing it, and then an Indian grad student doing the same, but in a different way?
the proper response, unfortunately, is to demand that they repeat everything you can't understand, and when you become a nuisance, go to the dean, then when they do nothing which is typical, you go up to the next level of adminstration. Then when that bears no fruit, you get the other students in your class together, make up signs, and hold a protest.
It's YOUR education. Stand up for it.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
So this is that rarest of birds, the "programming hipster".
If you have an accent and want to teach in an English based school then not only should you be monitored you should have to pass yearly tests to make sure your English is crystal clear. I had prof's who talked with strong accents and honestly going to class was a waste of time, they screwed up simple English and more then 1/2 the time I couldn't make them out. It's not a violation of anything, North America is an English speaking continent. Yes there are other languages but honestly every language should get it's own school and own teachers. Accents can make it near impossible to learn properly or to understand properly, it's a problem that needs a solution.
Well it's not actually. I am staff, not a student. I'm in the customer service business, being computer support, so I try not to be a jerk. That said "Send us an e-mail," is one of our favorite phrases. Part of it is so we don't forget to do things, part of it is to have documentation, but part of it is people are often more intelligible in a written form.
The students I feel sorry for, because while what you say is right, it isn't what happens.
What makes him being "Vulcan" biologically impossible instead of highly unlikely?
There is not clear cut way to respond to this. Providing training to employees to improve their accent so more customers can understand them is a business practice, where not doing so could drive people away from that company. Monitoring teachers to see if their accent meets some vague 'requirement' for maintaining a teaching license is discrimination in its base form, especially as its use in Arizona is targetted at Mexican and South American accents. The first is perfectly acceptable, as the employee can always quit if they do not like it. The second is not.
If it has anything to do with regulating immigration or immigrants, it's automatically considered to be a violation of rights.
Well, that is if it's seen to affect Latino immigrants. They wouldn't give a damn about a school district telling a German immigrant with a heavy accent to change his speech so that the students can understand him.
Badish, Bavarian, very difficult.
But when I tell someone I can't understand, they usually switch to understandable high-German without missing a beat. They could just speak high-German all the time, but they get lazy, or they just prefer their localized accent for everyday speech.
Republicans, you mean the same ones that want to roll back various civil rights legislation and voting protections?
You mean the ones that voted for the Civil Rights act of 1964?
Fine, say "Social Conservatives" instead. They may have had a different label 50 years ago, but they're the same assholes.
With the first link, the chain is forged.
Then I suggest not immigrating to a country where you are incapable of speaking the language understandably.
But that's not the case here. Native Spanish speakers can learn English without advanced training if they want to. I'm betting her problem is more about wanting to push her Hispanic identity over American (very common). These people want the host country to bend for them, and I find that insulting to the host country. They have a duty to assimilate.
I knew a Hispanic girl, fom Spain, working among Americans. It took me a while to catch the barest hint of an accent. She learned English in regular school and while living with Americans. Same with Germans in the US, some pretty thick, some it takes a minute to catch it, some have no German accent at all.
People forget that. We all discriminate. Clean water, dirty water; red meat, moldy meat; competent doctor, incompetent doctor. Beyond that it's tastes: music, food, looks, cars, computers.
At a basic level discrimination protects us by attempting to avoid things that are bad for us. Socially, varied discrimination gives us a much wider variety. It would be downright boring if we all liked and disliked the same things.
Yes, they are discriminating. They want teachers who their students can easily understand, thus facilitating the students' education. Teachers who do not fit that description should be discriminated against, just as I discriminate against moldy meat.
To send every teacher to a class would be a waste of resources and achieve nothing concrete but pissing off those fluent teachers forced to sit through the class.
I'm all for it.
I remember failing spelling tests in the 5th grade in Montgomery, Alabama, as I couldn't understand what the teacher was actually saying.
(Because she had an Alabama accent, and I had only spent time up 'til then from DC and northward on the east coast, or in Europe on military bases.)
Now, by the time you get to college, you need to start dealing with learning accents (although, I admit again, that there was a teacher whose class made much more sense once I figured out that 'mayored' was 'measured' and I was able to decode his accent), but there were some TAs (in engineering for the most part) that had difficulty understanding what the students were asking, and in teaching us as we couldn't understand them.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
By far, the largest immigrant population in Arizona is Latinos; thus, those who fail the test would logically be mostly Latino. That doesn't mean racist, that means they're immigrants who have too thick an accent.
People need to stop the racism claims until they can show unintelligible white German, Russian or even Scottish speakers who are not likewise told to to work on their accents.
It has absolutely nothing to do with travel, It has something to do with work only insofar as a person being qualified for said work. A reasonable qualification (e.g., students being able to understand you) should raise no civil rights issues.
If you think your teachers' accents are an issue, you make IELTS testing a job requirement and test all of the teachers. ALL of them. Not just the ones that you think look or sound foreign.
If they pass, hooray... they're fine for teaching even if they have a bit of an accent and you leave them alone.
If they fail, you arrange for them to take speech classes. If they consistently fail and/or refuse to take the classes to improve their speech, then you fire them. There's no discrimination in firing a teacher who can't do their job properly as long as you apply the same standard to all teachers.
How do you pronounce that?
You have a problem with assimilation? You're a Reconquista, right?
You think this former immigrant is anti-immigrant?Yes, I lived in a foreign country for a long time, I bothered to learn the language, I bothered to abide by the customs. I didn't complain when none of the official forms for regular internal stuff were in English. I didn't complain that stores and ads didn't have English versions. I realized I was in their country and had a duty to assimilate while there. And when I brought my wife back here, she assimilated to the US, doesn't even have a detectable foreign accent.
The oh-so enlightened Switzerland will even kick you out if you haven't learned German or French well enough after a few years. Good idea.
Interesting idea. In fact babies up to six months can distinguish between the phonemes of all languages. But they begin to lose the ability for the phonemes of other languages at six months, but have an increased awareness for their own language.
Ooh, guilty as charged. Although I tend to think of them both as posers first, and Canadians second.
Well, at least I didn't confuse Alanis with Celine Dion or Michael J. Fox.
#DeleteChrome
I think it's demonstrably stupid of you to assume that there are no intelligent beings on a planet of 40 Eridani, and that it's impossible for the OP to be one of those.
Of course, it's about as likely as, well, an alien from a planet used in a popular sci-fi series coming to earth and posting on Slashdot... But to say it's absolutely impossible is really quite ridiculous. Unless you've personally been to the 40 Eridani star system and can confirm none of the planets there have intelligent life, then you don't know. I doubt we've even discovered any exoplanets in that system yet, though they most probably do exist (the latest findings are showing that exoplanets are common in every star system, and that's with us only being able to detect really big ones at this point, as we can't yet detect ones as small as Earth).
Accents are a product of your first language. The fact that English is essentially a mash-up, a hybrid language, should exclude it from accentism.
Huh? Every language has accents, including English, and every language is a hybrid or mash-up of older languages. No language is pure, except perhaps Lojban (which isn't a natural language anyway).
French is a mash-up of Latin and some other tribal languages, and wouldn't exist in its present form if it weren't for Latin and the influence of the Roman Empire. The thing that's so remarkable about English is that it's a mash-up of (older forms of) German and French (and by extension, Latin and Greek). As far as Indo-European languages go, Germanic and Romance languages are rather different, so a mash-up of the two is rather odd in some ways.
French is just a cobbled together language too. If you want to see a "real" old-world language, go visit your Basque neighbors in the south of France and listen to them speak. That language is much older than your French.
but forgive me if I assume the USA has no "official language"
The Constitution of this country is written in English. All acts of Congress and all regulations of the executive branch are written in English. That's as official as I need.
What fact? English is neither a creole nor a pidgin. It is a Germanic language at its core syntactically, phonologically, and in its vocabulary. It still shares much in common with its past forms (including Old English a.k.a. Anglo-Saxon) and other Germanic languages (Dutch, German, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, etc). Yes, it has many words of French and Latin origin but so do most "real Old World" languages. It has also acquired quite a few other words from various languages as appropriate for any language with an imperial legacy and diverse peoples taking it up. Further reading: History of the English Language.
You sound awfully upset about English's high standing in the world. A rather small thing to get so worked up over.
Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power. -- Mussolini
Speaking a second (what used to be your first) language at home or among friends is fine. But do not expect the natives to learn your ways. The natives expect you to learn their ways, and you're in their country. Then the natives will pick and choose what they like about your culture and integrate it into the culture overall. In the case of the Cubans, I love the inclusion of picadillo into our larger cuisine (Mexican and Puerto Rican picadillo, not so much).
Where we was goin to school at, we could of definately used some accent neutralization. I ain't never gon' ferget my English teacher who knowed how to talk real good, and teached us good to. Or my biology teacher who teached us all about Armageddon, which for which'uns of y'all is ignerint is pronounced ar-MEG-gadon.
It shore was depressin where I growed up at.
When I worked for a school I insisted on email because lots of the time they weren't supposed to have what they were asking for. "I can't do it without an email" is an awesome tool.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"