Slashdot Mirror


Why Mars Is Not the Best Place To Look For Life

EccentricAnomaly writes "A story over at Science News quotes Alan Stern (former head of NASA Science missions) as saying: 'The three strongest candidates [for extraterrestrial life] are all in the outer solar system.' He's referring to Europa, Titan, and Enceladus. So why is NASA spending $2.5B on the next Mars Rover and planning to spend over $6B more on a Mars sample return when it can't find the money for much cheaper missions to Europa or Enceladus?"

298 comments

  1. Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Mars is closer and easier to send people to

    1. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just like to imagine how relations between Earth and the colonies will play out over time... Will they be like the American colonies and eventually rebel? Or would they be like Canada?

    2. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 1

      Yup, question answered. There's never been a sign of life on the moon, but we went there anyway, it's not all about finding life. In fact, that might not even have much commercial value in the long run.

      --
      Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    3. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Narmacil · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is the correct answer.

      Even if we don't find life on mars, it will be important as a second establishment of civilization, this is more important than finding other life (because it will prolong the period we can look for it)

    4. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      Oh, I'm sure we'll find something to fight about. We always do...

    5. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Why bother? We can't afford it, and have many local problems on our own planet fucking us up right here and now. One day, when technology has improved for space travel, and we have a massively better grasp on energy generation, I can see expanding the human race to other locations. But for the foreseeable future, and that is probably several decade or beyond, we can't even manage our own planet that we're perfectly developed for. Save your teraforming for future generations and cheesy sci-fi tales.

      We could probably afford it if we strip the top 1% wealth from their assets.

    6. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1, Insightful

      We could probably afford it if we strip the top 1% wealth from their assets.

      This is why we need a "-1 Dumbass".

      It would be heavily abused, of course. But it certainly applies to the above AC.

    7. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      You don't come up with the technology to terraform and colonize planets overnight. Look at how many thousands of years and indirect pathways it took from the harnessing of fire to the exploration of space. As distance as those two events are, they are inherently linked. The future of humanity in space and the spread of our civilization across space started 50 years ago, and anything we do now is one step closer to that future. And for all we know, it won't even be Western civilization that first colonizes space. It could very well be some future, totally different civilization. A utopian, unified world government or a militaristic fascist state, someone will eventually colonize space, unless we somehow manage to eradicate all human life in an instant.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    8. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by 0111+1110 · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you'd like to kill them as well?

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    9. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or why don't you just answer the question instead of driving things to ridiculous extremes?

    10. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by jtownatpunk.net · · Score: 1

      And served with a nice Chianti, I suspect.

    11. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Mars ... has about 1/3rd of earth gravity. In summer at the equator it is about 20 degrees centigrade warm, even with an atmosphere of less then 10 milli bar, less then 5 even.
      In valleys, canyons the pressure goes up to 100, or even 200 milli bars. They have 10km deep canyons on Mars, can you believe this? Colorado River Canyons are dwarfed against that.
      You have the desert. The beautiful sunsets, the amazing sun rises.
      With solar panels you can harvest sun, you can melt ice to get water, you can create methane and O2 to ave rocket fuel. You can fly planes or ballons. You can make a greenhouse and plant groceries.

      On Europe: you have ice ... ice as far as the eye reaches, it is dark, so cold, and Jupiters radiation might kill you in a few days. The sky is marvelous, though. Jupiter, the god of this solar system, dwarfing the sun. But no resources, to build a habitat. No ... so cold ... so cold ... minus 150 degrees centigrade. And gravity is only less than half of Mars' 15% of earth gravity.

      On Enceladus: even less gravity. Even more ice, even colder ... even farer away ... shudder.

      If I was a viking and they promised me land moving into the outer solar system, I would head for mars. Any time.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    12. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by gmuslera · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Look a bit closer. Even getting into orbit could had the very same reasoning behind. Even today we aren't having our colony vacations in orbit, and probably won't for decades if ever. But how much it changed the world getting there for something else, and developing the associated technologies for getting there and taking advantage of that fact? A lot of the consequences of getting there wasnt even imagined by the time the race started. Not sure if we will ever terraform Mars, or even put self sustainable colonies up there. But all that we should develop to get that goal will give us a lot of benefits down here.

      Also, that kind of reasoning will delay that forever, always should be a better use of money in the present instead of betting on having a future. Earth history is full of events that could make all saved pennies worthless, our time here could be running out, no matter if that will be next year, next millenium, or a millon years later, and we can do something about it now, not sure later.

      Regarding the "top 1%", if an incoming disaster threaten us in the middle/short term, if its the solution their assets will finance a colony on mars... and they will be the ones that will be saved. We've seen that so many times in movies that will not surprise anyone if it ever happens.

    13. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easy there, Che. We don't all love the idea of murdering our own people and stripping their families of everything just so we can later starve everyone to death anyway.

    14. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by canadian_right · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We can afford it. All the USA needs to do is slow down killing other people and use about 10%o f the military budget for Mars and it is a done deal.

      Problems on Earth are mainly not due to technology or money, but poor government. People are not starving because there isn't enough food. They starve because they live in places with incompetent, corrupt, or evil governments. Going to Mars is cheap and easy compared to solving poverty.

      We are much better at managing the planet. There has never been such widespread wealth and peace for such an extended time. Room for improvement, but we are on the right track. Well, maybe not the Tea Party.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    15. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by InfiniteZero · · Score: 1

      Why stop at 1%? How about 5%... and that would include most Americans if you look at the wealth of the world.

    16. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think that it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly coloured, and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question - is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us. They say 'Hey! Don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because, this is just a ride.' And we...kill those people. Ha ha ha. 'Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride. SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and family. This just has to be real.' It's just a ride.

      But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter because: it's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings, and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourselves off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. Here's what you can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money that we spend on weapons and defence each year, and instead spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, for ever, in peace.

      - The late, great Bill Hicks. Gone much too soon...

    17. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if we don't find life on mars, it will be important as a second establishment of civilization, this is more important than finding other life (because it will prolong the period we can look for it)

      Why?

      It will be much easier to solve any problems on planet Earth than it will ever be to make Mars inhabitable and it'll be less resource intensive.

      Having a Mars colony would be cool for the sake of it, but not cool enough to forgo scientific exploration. Colonization is an engineering problem; not a science one.

    18. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Sepodati · · Score: 1

      We could probably afford it if we strip the top 1% wealth from their assets.

      Genius! We should do this as many times as it takes, until there is no longer a top 1%!!

    19. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm so sick of the "Americans have it so much better than the 3rd world, so they should be happy with what they have and stop protesting" argument. By that logic, why can't the wealthy here be happy with what is considered wealthy in, say, Somalia, or Zimbabwe? Somehow I doubt they'd be happy with their vast fortune of tens of thousands of dollars...

      While I disagree with targeting people based solely on their wealth and punishing success, I think that telling a swiftly growing class of poor "Hey, at least you're not 'Sub-Saharan Africa' poor!", is pretty ignorant.

    20. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a harder time imagining Earth as a political entity than I do imagining Martian colonists. The colonization of Mars is going to be a lot like the colonization of the New World, except more difficult, time consuming, and expensive. I don't think we've learned enough from our history or developed the ability to overcome our nature for it to be any different this time. Some groups will be pushed to rebellion. Others won't.

    21. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It will be chinese men, no doubt involved in homosexual relationships colonizing Mars for the 'Glory of the People's Republic!' in the slim hope that it will net them wives as promised by the politicos. Only what will instead happen is that after toiling away for half their lives to set up a self sustaining colony, they'll send some snooty prefect and entourage to take over management of the outpost, relegating the initial colonists to slavelike conditions, while publicly hailing them as heroes and showing what a happy rosy place the new mars outpost is.

      Or it could be halliburton. Either way it doesn't sound pleasant.

    22. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the monolith told us not to go to europa

    23. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Pence128 · · Score: 1

      To put things in to perspective, if a person has one billion dollars they can give away one dollar every 4 seconds for 100 years and still have over $2 million per year left over. Alternately, if a person made $1000 an hour, he would have to work for 114 years to have a billion dollars. Assuming a 40 hour work week, he'd have to live for over 500 years. $1 billion is minimum wage for life for 1000 people. How does any one person get this rich?

      --
      404: sig not found.
    24. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      When an argument is based on: "But that guy has more than me!" the equally weak "Those people have less than you" is just as valid.

    25. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 1

      Plus there is no evidence that the Martians ever moved to Europa, Titan, and Enceladus.

      --
      You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
    26. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by RCL · · Score: 1

      You don't earn that kind of money by implementing someone else's ideas (which rules out 99% of jobs) and hoping that your employer will reward you appropriately.

      Instead, you try to make people around you implement your ideas - including the idea to get insanely rich.

    27. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Culture20 · · Score: 2

      What is dumpass

      That phrase is the shit!

      What is dumpass with stripping the top 1% of he world population from their assets?

      And then what, distribute it evenly between everyone? So now everyone has $5000(?) extra in their pocket, and prices for everything just rise to compensate because everyone knows everyone else has a little extra to spend? The end result is just to hurt the 1% and cause inflation. Kinda sadistic.

    28. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Rei · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Mars ... has about 1/3rd of earth gravity.

      Which is something for which we don't know much about the long-term health effects of. It might be no better than microgravity.

      They have 10km deep canyons on Mars, can you believe this? Colorado River Canyons are dwarfed against that.

      It's hardly the only massive canyon in the solar system, however. The Saturnian system has some impressive ones (like Ithaca Chasma), made all the more impressive in comparison to the size of the body they're on.

      You have the desert. The beautiful sunsets, the amazing sun rises.

      Sounds more like Earth than Mars. :P

      With solar panels you can harvest sun

      Between the greater distance and the electrostatic dust that clings to everything, not nearly as well as on Earth. At least with most other bodies in the solar system, you don't get dust clinging to all of your sensitive electronic equipment.

      you can melt ice to get water

      Water becomes more abundant the further out in the solar system you go.

      you can create methane and O2 to ave rocket fuel.

      Not readily. CO2 is such a sparse gas on Mars, and the process to convert it to methane is not trivial. On the other hand, say, on Titan, you've got an atmosphere already full of methane. LOX can be burned like jet fuel on Titan. Most of the solid bodies from Saturn on out, and to a lesser extent in the Jovian system, are covered with tholins -- all sorts of various complex organic carbon compounds, nearly all of which could be used for hybrid rocket fuel much easier than trying to produce methane on Mars. On any body with ice, you can produce LOX and LH anyway; fuel is not really the issue. At least there's lots of LH engines to choose from; there aren't many methane engines out there.

      You can fly planes or ballons.

      Only with *extreme* difficulty; Mars's atmosphere is so thin it's almost negligible. It's far much easier on Titan or Venus's habitable cloud layer (there's a layer of atmosphere in Venus with a temperature similar to a hot Phoenix day at a pressure similar to that of La Paz -- and even a normal Earth atmosphere is a lifting gas on Venus, so floating colonies are not out of the question. You could even walk outside in shirtsleeves, although you'd need a mask to provide oxygen and goggles to protect your eyes from long-term exposure to the trace carbon monoxide; the small amounts of sulfur dioxide may also be an irritant).

      You can make a greenhouse and plant groceries.

      You can do that anywhere. But it's not nearly as simple of a process to do sustainably as you're imagining.

      On Europe: ... On Enceladus ...

      It's far too simplistic to declare Europa and Enceladus's surfaces as being *all* ice. And it's not like anyone would live on the *surface* of such a world when you could so readily go underground for radiation shielding. And those are but two bodies amount the vast many possibilities in the solar system. And who says that colonization needs to occur *on* a solid body anyway? It could just as well be done in space, with only mining done to solid objects (which might not even be planetoids/moons), so you don't have to have your people locked deep in a gravity well. And if you're going to choose a gravity well, why choose a deep one when it might not actually offer any health benefits?

      Anyway, this is a whole red herring, because this was a discussion about exploration and the search for life. Colonization is so far off of a topic it shouldn't even warrant consideration at this point in time.

      --
      "It felt almost as good as stealing cars from grandma." -- Margaret Thatcher, probably.
    29. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      NO, you use it to pay off all government debt. No more interest, so you can lower taxes, increase government spending while lowering budgets, and increase confidence in the economy tenfold. Not that I advocate taking all their money. Just anything above 1 billion should be reasonable..

    30. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by reasterling · · Score: 1

      How does any one person get this rich?

      • capitalism.
      • government granted monopolies.
      • paying the right congress critter
      • GREED.
      • not to mention a healthy dose of pride so you can elevate your own self worth.

      I am a republican, but I am tired of hearing the old party line of trickle down economics. Do you know what the problem is with trickle down economics?

      -- TRICKLE --

      I am sick of begging for the scraps that the wealthy decide to throw our way. The biggest problem though, I don't know how to fix this situation.

      --
      "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice" -- God
    31. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by sd4f · · Score: 1

      Maybe they found weapons of mass destruction on mars!

    32. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are an investment banker like many of these cunts are, you don't have to implement any good ideas. Just make deals in the good old boy network.

    33. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I substituted overrated.

    34. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      Dumb argument used to justify the wealthy staying wealthy at the expense of everyone else. By your logic, why couldn't the wealthy be happier, say, with the lifestyle of a wealthy person in the Sudan?

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    35. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by mrxak · · Score: 1

      It's actually a good thing if we don't find life on Mars, so we can avoid an Andromeda Strain type of situation, or War of the Worlds in reverse, when we try to set up a colony on Mars. Sterile planets are better for terraforming. If we find life on Europa, we can happily let them keep living there. We don't want a moon base there anyway.

    36. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On Europe: ...

      economic crisis that bad, eh?

    37. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

      I only wanted to see if I get agan modded down as troll. Sigh ...
      Nevertheless the fact that 1% of the world population owns 99% of the wealth is disgusting ;D
      If you can deal with it, fine for you.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    38. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Surt · · Score: 1

      Well, that would be a net win in terms of loss of life. A horrendous number of people have to die to maintain that wealth.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    39. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Surt · · Score: 1

      How about only until the top 1% controls no more than 10% of the wealth? They'd still have ten times as much as the next guy they want to look down on. But that guy they were spitting on would be so much better off.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    40. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Lanteran · · Score: 1

      Woah, Europe is that inhospitable? /sarcasm

      --
      "People don't want to learn linux" hasn't been a valid excuse since '03.
    41. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      Even if we don't find life on mars, it will be important as a second establishment of civilization

      I disagree -- Mars will never support a civilization, as a civilization would require an ecosystem to support it, and (short of terraforming) Earth-based life cannot grow on Mars. Mars might support a research outpost or two, but that outpost will be forever dependent on supplies from Earth for its long-term survival, and therefore not viable as a redundant backup location for humanity that could help if Earth was lost.

      For an example of what would happen to a Mars outpost that doesn't get resupplied regularly from Earth, check out the results of the BioSphere 2 prototype outpost... and note that Biosphere 2's environmental conditions were much more forgiving than they would be on Mars.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    42. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

      "All of these worlds are yours except Europa. Attempt no landing there." - 2010: Odyssey II, Arthur C. Clarke

    43. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by bryan1945 · · Score: 1

      "We could probably afford it if we strip the top 1% wealth from their assets."

      The American dream- be successful, then be hated for being successful, then have your assets taken away.

      --
      Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
    44. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Pence128 · · Score: 1

      Gravity is cheap. float a tin can in space and give it a spin. In summer at the equator, 20 degrees centigrade as about the highest possible temperature on mars. it averages 0 degrees in the middle of the day. At night, it can hit -70. Add a few mirrors and radiators to your tin can and you can have whatever temperature you want. The deepest points on mars almost reach 9 millibar. It averages 6. The atmosphere in your space can is perfect. You should know. You put it there. Your space can is in earth orbit for convenience, so the sun is more than twice as bright there. Near earth asteroids have tiny delta vs and have lots of carbon, ice, metals and silicates. As a bonus for propellant, it's already in space. On mars? You have the freezing, empty desert. The sky is black except for the clouds of ice and solid carbon dioxide. In your space can with a pair of binoculars you can wave to the people that live on the ceiling.

      --
      404: sig not found.
    45. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by monkyyy · · Score: 1

      fix number 2 and 3 on ur list, then maybe the problems that airnt fixing themselves can be much smaller, and clearer
      while i have very little trust in capitalism, as it stops working as soon as monopoly's pop up; i think fixing it so our system could work IN THEORY should be a good step

      --
      warning pointless sig
    46. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Personally I think that trickle up economics works much better. If the average person actually has some disposable income, they can spend it and award the people who have a compelling product instead of spending all their income on necessities, necessities that keep increasing because a certain class of people think they deserve a 10%+ raise every year, even if they haven't done anything particularly positive and usually done something that is long term negative.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    47. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by t2t10 · · Score: 1

      There is no point in sending people to Mars; people can't do anything that a rover can't do cheaper and better.

    48. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by dbIII · · Score: 1

      You can fly planes or ballons.

      Those 400 knot takeoffs and landings will be exciting, and you can forget about balloons in such an atmosphere.
      http://www.x-plane.com/adventures/mars.html

    49. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, nothing will scream "do business in this healthy economy!" like driving away the rich. "We won't even nationalize your assets!!!"

    50. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Eventually rebel? Most assuredly. About the only way that they won't rebel, is if people are sent there with the understanding that they are on their own to start with. That is, Earth would commit resources to getting them up there, with the minimal resources necessary to give them a fighting chance at survival - then it's up to them to make things work, because there won't be any more support. Given such a scenario, with no involvement in politics, economics, military, or anything at all - then there would be no reason to ever declare independence.

      But, you go ahead and figure the odds of us sending anyone into space, without demanding some sort of "profit", while at the same time demanding that they abide by myriad rules and regulations that range from asinine to despotic. Using history as an example, I don't put those odds above 1 in gazillions of gazillions.

      Incidentally, my sympathies would be with the colonists.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    51. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      "The biggest problem though, I don't know how to fix this situation."

      Don't feel lonely. Thousands of very intelligent people have attempted to "fix this situation", including Lenin and Marx. Tens of thousands of less intelligent people have attempted to "fix this situation". So far - nothing short of revolution seems to fix it at all. And, revolutions tend to be messy, and cause all sorts of other problems.

      The best thing that could happen, IMO, is for the people who vote to just fire all the politicians, and start fresh. Strict term limits, and ultra strict accountability for personal finances while in office would go a long way toward fixing the problems. Any representative who sold a vote to a lobbyist should be stripped of his office, all benefits of that office including pensions and health care, convicted of bribery charges, and serve a minimum of 5 years in prison.

      Alas, I'm dreaming. Nothing like that is going to happen, in this lifetime, or any other.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    52. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Garridan · · Score: 1

      I daresay, the Earth would be a better place to look for life. I mean, it's easy to get there. And you know that you'll find it, so no chance of disappointment. Crazy scientists.

    53. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Arlet · · Score: 1

      It's also a lot easier to get a soil sample back from Mars. If you find any kind of life form with remote instruments, the next step will be to bring some back to Earth for proper examination.

    54. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Narmacil · · Score: 1

      that part in parenthesis, about terraforming, is the point. You would terraform mars and build the facilities there to make it self sufficient. Biosphere is wayyyy too small scale. We're talking a planet wide population, not just a tiny outpost. You'd have factories, mines, farms, cities. Forests. Think Red Mars (it's a good book, read it)

    55. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      I don't know that Mars is any worse than the Moon, except for the distance, which is pretty much a deal-breaker if you're talking about any kind of frequent exchanges of anything with much mass. And I can certainly see colonies on the Moon. It has turned out to have lots of resources we never suspected until we went there, like abundant oxygen in the rock. And more recently, we have found lots and lots of water ice. Solar energy is everywhere.

      Regardless of whether Mars would ever be habitable, there are all kinds of reasons to want to establish an outpost on the moon.

    56. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1
      While I agree with your general point, I have to pick on a couple of the specific things you say.

      "Between the greater distance and the electrostatic dust that clings to everything, not nearly as well as on Earth."

      Yeah, you would probably want to sweep off your solar collectors every week or so. And after storms.

      "Water becomes more abundant the further out in the solar system you go."

      But MUCH harder to melt, in most places.

    57. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1
      You forgot, or at least left out, a couple of things:

      "Gravity is cheap. float a tin can in space and give it a spin."

      You would have to either spin it very fast, or make it very large, if you're talking about long-term habitation. Both have their problems: make it too small, so you have to spin it too fast, and the gravity will be significantly different at your feet than at your head. With all the associated health problems that implies. Make it very large, and you have the astronomical cost and effort of trying to build something that large in microgravity in the first place. Assuming you have the physical resources (which we would have to assume anyway since you left that out), building a habitat of either size, in even a small gravity well (like Mars or the Moon), would probably be much faster and cheaper. And you can get to low-v asteroids pretty easily from either place... certainly easier than from Earth.

      Also, while on the general subject of radiation, you would also need rather heavy and bulky shielding from radiation. Not only that, but you would need sturdy shielding at the front (toward the direction of orbit, that is), to keep you from being a victim of punctures from orbital junk. I don't know if you are aware, but one time during orbit a flake of paint (!!) embedded itself about 1" into one of the 3" thick forward viewports of one of the space shuttles. Imagine hitting anything more massive than a flake of paint.

      "Add a few mirrors and radiators to your tin can and you can have whatever temperature you want."

      Only if those mirrors and radiators are adjustable, and in fact quite active, and you have lots and lots of good insulation. On a planetary body, you have plenty of naturally available insulation and your heat source can be more passive.

      "The sky is black except for the clouds of ice and solid carbon dioxide."

      Um... no, it's not. Haven't you seen ANY of the pictures from the Mars rovers over the last few years?

    58. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Seems to me this is is quite obvious. My guess would be that looking in your neighborhood pond would be much more productive than looking on Mars.

    59. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      When you can show me a rover that can play volleyball, compose an original poem, and reason its way out of a difficult situation without outside help, I'll agree with you. Until then, no.

    60. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      If you find any kind of life form that has remote instruments, you might want to ask it for a ride home.

    61. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Arlet · · Score: 1

      A ride home on a microscope ? I'd like to see you do that.

    62. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Well, not the whole object has to be inhabitable, right? So a set of 2km steel ropes connecting the actual space station with a counterweight should be sufficient. Still very expensive, but considerably less so than a complete inhabitable structure of that size.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    63. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Genda · · Score: 1

      First you separate Government and Business the way we should have separated Church and State. Then you put the laws in place that we had separating banking and investing after the first big financial disaster in 1932, starting by reinstating Glass-Steagall at all costs. Ultimately we dissolve the Federal Bank which has been a parasite preying on this nation for over 200 years. We clean out the nest of vipers that D.C. has become, and we reconstitute the "Bill of Rights", and the "Checks and Balances" between government branches as the default operating standard and not just a happy thought about the past. Finally we provide real campaign reform that allows a broad segment of the population to participate in government, and removes the money factor for running that has today's successful candidates beholden to financial sources. As well we enforce critical laws regarding monopoly of the media to ensure there is a diverse and rich source of information to keep both the government and business under constant scrutiny. We repeal the rights of corporations as being equal or superior to human beings to ensure they cannot supplant the humanity they should be serving. Anyway, this is my idea of a good start.

    64. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      What's the value of playing volleyball on Mars, or composing poems on Mars? Both can just be done on earth.

      Reasoning your way out of a difficult situation without outside help is of course useful. OTOH you cannot reason out of every possible situation, and it's certainly better to lose a rover due to an unexpected situation than to lose a human. Add to that that unexpected situations don't necessarily mean losing the connection, therefore it's well possible for humans on Earth to solve the problem of the rover on Mars.

      One advantage that humans have over rovers is that they have better mobility. A human can e.g. climb over a rock if necessary, a rover cannot. Nor can humans on Earth do it for the rover.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    65. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by mister_playboy · · Score: 1

      Sterile planets are better for terraforming

      In Mars's case, we'd need to terraform it a new magnetic field...

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
    66. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mars ... has about 1/3rd of earth gravity.

      Which is something for which we don't know much about the long-term health effects of. It might be no better than microgravity.

      At least I consider current knowledge of the effects sufficient to personally be willing to take the risk for that purpose. And I would be very surprised if people that are willing to sit in a capsule on top of what is effectively a controlled explosion wouldn't be willing to do the same. Besides, IIRC the collapse of the Soviet Union and consequent unplanned changes in launch schedules result in some Russian cosmonaut already spending so much time on Mir that it would've sufficed for a return trip to Mars including a couple of months on the surface?

    67. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by VoidCrow · · Score: 1

      It's a circular suspension bridge. Come up with a good basic design, and you could prefabricate and mass-produce it. If only the hippies would let us build Orion-type lifters...

    68. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One other issue is the power source: SolarPower works out to Mars and somewhat in the asteroid belt but then you would feel the cold.
      At Jupiter (5 AE) the sunligt is only just over 50W/m2 and at Saturn (9+ AE) about 15 W/m2. Solar cells operating at what? 20% Brrrr...

      Digging into the ice is also a bit different than on earth - at -200C normal ice is as hard as granite rock... If you had energy in abundance you could dig by boiling - or rather sublimateing - it into space.

      Searching for life? My bet would be Europa just beacuse the ice on Enceladus is all to clean and the same colour, on Europa it is not. I think the odds of finding something intersting there is better.

    69. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 1

      +1 Mod Insightful

      --
      In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
    70. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 1

      "Water becomes more abundant the further out in the solar system you go."

      But MUCH harder to melt, in most places.

      Any long-term mission or colonization effort is almost certain to rely on some variation of a nuclear power source, either a RTG or a full-on PWR. Solar doesn't provide enough juice for anything big, especially the farther you move from the Sun. Either nuclear solution is going to produce waste heat on the order of hundreds (most likely thousands) of watts. Finding a way to melt ice won't be an issue no matter if you're on Mars or Titan...or Pluto for that matter.

      --
      In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
    71. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 1

      Rovers cannot procreate and ensure the longevity of the human species. At some point, some of the eggs have to leave this single, vulnerable basket we're all in and start a second basket.

      --
      In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
    72. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mars is closer and easier to send people to

      Quite true. This is why recommendations for building a prison colony in Mars are already flying in the internal mail of the White House and Kremlin.

    73. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by kdemetter · · Score: 1

      If you give them only the bare minimum , i'm sure they will rebel : they have nothing to lose .
      They will eventually figure out how to be self sufficient, but will hold a grudge against earth, because they didn't help them out when they needed it.

      It's much better to send them everything they need, but to control the import/export.
      That way, they won't rebel, because they will have more to lose, than to gain by doing so.

    74. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah controlling import and export of goods has worked exceptionally well in preventing rebellions in the past. Where the fuck did you read about history?

    75. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      Your apparent desire to steal from people is disgusting.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    76. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      You and I know what you meant by that. But unfortunately NASA has christened one of their more recent proposals ORION, so that can cause confusion.

    77. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that one. Interesting.

      I like this thinking-out-of-the-box. We should think about tethers more often. As Charles Pellegrino pointed out: depending on your energy source, it would probably be vastly more cost-effective, for an interstellar vehicle, to have the motors pulling the payload, via cables, than to have them pushing it using massive steel girders.

    78. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Yes, the versatility was my main point. On Mars it may not be as important, as the communications lag time is only a few minutes. But if you get much further out than that, anything that relies on remote control has to do everything e-x-t-r-e-m-e-l-y s-l-o-w-l-y.

    79. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Pence128 · · Score: 1

      It would be very large, kilometres. You only colonize a place for it's resources. The only thing I can imagine that we would absolutely need is surface area. We've run out of land to live on. The asteroids are the physical resources. Getting from an NEO back to earth orbit can be as low as 100m/s. Getting from an asteroid to the moon would take at least 2.5km/s. Microgravity mean you can move anything wherever you want it. Construction on an incredible scale just takes longer. A sufficient radiation shield is 2 meters of crap left over from asteroid mining. The hull is one meter of steel, add armour technology to taste. Of course mirrors are adjustable. It's either oriented to reflect sunlight on to the the habitat, or slightly rotated so that it isn't. Insulation? You just balance the heat absorbed from the sun with the heat radiated into space.

      As for the sky..... I have no excuse. I don't know what I was smoking.

      --
      404: sig not found.
    80. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      It would take quite a while before any Martian colonies could rebel successfully, because they'll be so dependent on Earth for supplies, food, etc. To be self-sufficient, a Mars colony would have to be able to grow its own food, have its own manufacturing abilities, etc. Just the food part is a little worrisome.

    81. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Well, Robin Hood called it tax ...
      Disgusting is your way of drawing conclusions ;D and using the word "apparent" ... perhaps you could have the greatness to click "parent" 3 or 4 times to get a clue.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    82. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by kdemetter · · Score: 1

      You missed the part about giving them anything they need.
      And i don't need history for it : it's working fine in my own country , where everything is controlled by major corporations , but we don't do anything about it , because everyone has to much to lose.

    83. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Where does the average person get disposable income?

    84. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      You stated a desire to "strip the top 1% of their assets." By strip, I cannot help but surmise that you mean steal.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    85. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Well, I believe I only answered to one of my parents who proposed to "strip" them ;D however it might be that I did the same as I believe this should be done anyhow.
      As you obviously disagree you either belong to that %1 or are not poor enough to make up your mind. But well, as you obviouls have access to a computer you are likely not poor enough ...

      Keep in mid the russian revolution or the frensh revolution or the chineese revolution did not happen because people suddenly relized that freedom is a good idea, but because they where starving to death.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    86. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I'd say it's the contrary, finding life is a short term stopper to commercial endeavors.
      If there is life on Mars, then sending people there becomes an ethical problem as it becomes a 'war of the worlds' event.
      Whereas, once you prove there is no life, you can send people, build, terraform, play etc.
      It seems to me the 'obvious commercial value' of a world without life is much higher than that of a world with alien life.
      The scientific and philosophical value are a different matter though... Finding alien life would really be ground breaking...

    87. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by t2t10 · · Score: 1

      Rovers cannot procreate and ensure the longevity of the human species

      Human settlements on other planets are a great idea. But human settlements on other planets will require much more robotics and science than we currently have, and if we waste our scarce space funding on sending astronauts on joy rides, people will tire of space exploration long before we settle elsewhere.

    88. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by t2t10 · · Score: 1

      anything that relies on remote control has to do everything e-x-t-r-e-m-e-l-y s-l-o-w-l-y.

      But that doesn't matter. For the cost of sending a single astronaut, we can send tens of thousands of robotic probes. Even if they weren't autonomous at all and needed to creep along with remote control, we'd still get tons more data every hour than the human would give us. But autonomous probes actually are working better and better anyway, so they can explore quickly.

      And, of course, long-term human space missions are technologically impossible with current technology anyway. We need advances in robotics and propulsion to make them happen, and we need a much better understanding of our solar system.

      So, if you want manned exploration eventually (as I do), we need to focus our resources on robotic exploration right now.

    89. Re:Mars is closer and easier to send people to by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      As you obviously disagree you either belong to that %1 or are not poor enough to make up your mind.

      I don't know what your definition of "poor enough" is. I am firmly in the bottom 50%, but above the federal poverty line. But I think there's a third option there that you're missing.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
  2. Mars might be the best place to put life, though by 427_ci_505 · · Score: 1

    Certainly it would be easier getting humans there than the outer solar system places.

  3. Mars Ain't the Kind of Place to Search for Life... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ...in fact, it's cold as hell.

  4. My money... by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

    is on Europa. I hope I live long enough to see whether I lose that bet.

    1. Re:My money... by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

      Isn't Europa tidally locked?

    2. Re:My money... by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      Yes, but they hypothesize that the intense gravity from Jupiter causes tidal flexing, which in theory could create enough heat through eruptions and such to maintain a liquid water ocean under the frozen surface.

    3. Re:My money... by tsa · · Score: 1

      My money is on the Earth.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    4. Re:My money... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      is on Europa. I hope I live long enough to see whether I lose that bet.

      I don't think it's a good idea to store your money there. OK, it's pretty sure that no one will steal it, but how do you get at it again?

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  5. Because it's closer. by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Mars is closer to us than Europa, Titan, and Enceladus. Not just physically, but culturally. Literature, film, etc, Mars has played a big role in the past 50-75 years. If you hear "little green men", the average person is going to immediately think "Mars". More people are more likely to know the name Mars as opposed to some moons orbiting Saturn ( and yes, I'll admit I had to look in the article to double check that they are in fact moons of Saturn). If you are trying to get funding for something, you go for something people will recognize, because they will be more likely to support it. Ask for something they've never heard of, and they might start wondering if it's really all that necessary. It's sad, but it's true.

    Also, people might confuse Europa with a continent, and Enceladus with a Mexican dish. :)

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    1. Re:Because it's closer. by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      More people are more likely to know the name Mars as opposed to some moons orbiting Saturn ( and yes, I'll admit I had to look in the article to double check that they are in fact moons of Saturn).

      Should have looked more closely, Europa orbits Jupiter.

      Arthur C. Clark would be rolling in his grave...

    2. Re:Because it's closer. by Nidi62 · · Score: 2

      More people are more likely to know the name Mars as opposed to some moons orbiting Saturn ( and yes, I'll admit I had to look in the article to double check that they are in fact moons of Saturn).

      Should have looked more closely, Europa orbits Jupiter.

      Arthur C. Clark would be rolling in his grave...

      See what I mean? Unless it's something you are actively interested in, it's easy to get them wrong. If you are trying to change peoples' priorities, you have to start with something they know. Then you can move on to things they might be unfamiliar with.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    3. Re:Because it's closer. by Jimbookis · · Score: 5, Funny

      Mars is closer to us than Europa, Titan, and Enceladus. Not just physically, but culturally. Literature, film, etc,

      Yes, that I have never quite gotten into or understood that Europan tentacle porn as much as I have the Martian three fingered face hugger porn. Titanian porn makes me feel inadequate.

    4. Re:Because it's closer. by AchilleTalon · · Score: 2

      Bingo! This is all about public relations and nothing about the scientific justification. Taxpayers want to dream they will a day send someone (even just to die) on Mars, they feel it is a great way to spend money, while sending a probe on Saturnian moons seeking for life indications there isn't that great for them. In fact, people don't care that much about extraterresterial life, they care much more about going somewhere else to prove they are a so marvelous creature capable of spending ressources on useless things.

      So, money wise, it is better to put efforts on Mars rather than on Saturnian moons from the taxpayer's point of view

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    5. Re:Because it's closer. by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      I get what you are saying, but when it comes to matters of science, I don't think we should demean it by marketing it like a soft drink or brand of clothing.

      I think we should instead focus our energies on educating people as to why these places make good choices, instead of trying to cash in on pop culture tropes that have no scientific basis.

      I admit, though, that the latter method is usually more effective, at least here in the U.S., anyway...

    6. Re:Because it's closer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's all well and good, but this isn't the National Science Foundation, it's NASA. NASA science is much MUCH more political than NSF science. It maybe not be the best way to do it, but it's the only way it's going to happen.

    7. Re:Because it's closer. by JustOK · · Score: 2

      Mars has a better PR team.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    8. Re:Because it's closer. by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      That's all well and good, but this isn't the National Science Foundation, it's NASA. NASA science is much MUCH more political than NSF science. It maybe not be the best way to do it, but it's the only way it's going to happen.

      Only because it's taxpayer funded. Once upon a time, pure scientific research was something we embraced, even if there wasn't a way to necessarily monetize the discoveries. Nowadays it seems like the general public has been convinced that the pursuit of knowledge is, in itself, worthless unless we can capitalize on that knowledge.

      NASA is having problems because everyone thinks sending people up into space is a waste of money. We need to explain to them why it's not, not come up with more creative ways to stretch the truth and make it seem like every space mission is like the movie Armageddon. Turning the Space Program into the Jersey Shore only gives those that would rather just roll that money into another tax cut for multimillionaires more fuel to turn around and convince people to do just that, like we see today.

    9. Re:Because it's closer. by EdIII · · Score: 1

      In all fairness Enceladus does sound like Enchirito, but a lighter, healthier version.

    10. Re:Because it's closer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and arthur c. clarke would be laughing at that other dead guy for making such a fuss over it...

    11. Re:Because it's closer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mars is closer to us than Europa, Titan, and Enceladus. Not just physically, but culturally. Literature, film, etc, Mars has played a big role in the past 50-75 years. If you hear "little green men", the average person is going to immediately think "Mars". More people are more likely to know the name Mars as opposed to some moons orbiting Saturn ( and yes, I'll admit I had to look in the article to double check that they are in fact moons of Saturn). If you are trying to get funding for something, you go for something people will recognize, because they will be more likely to support it. Ask for something they've never heard of, and they might start wondering if it's really all that necessary. It's sad, but it's true.

      Also, people might confuse Europa with a continent, and Enceladus with a Mexican dish. :)

      Europa is a moon of Jupiter, not Saturn...

    12. Re:Because it's closer. by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      The average person is ignorant (stupid?), short-sighted, and primarily interested in personal enjoyment/amusement. If you cannot market science to this audience you will never get funding to do science.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    13. Re:Because it's closer. by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Well, just get Hollywood to popularize life on Europa, and you're set.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    14. Re:Because it's closer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Arthur C. Clark would be rolling in his grave

      Maybe. But I bet Arthur C. Clarke rolls over in his grave every time someone misspells his last name.

    15. Re:Because it's closer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, money wise, it is better to put efforts on Mars rather than on Saturnian moons from the taxpayer's point of view

      Exactly. If you really want to help sience you need to do high profile work that makes people want to put money in it.
      It is pretty obvious that the majority of the population isn't willing to pay for sience unless it is something that they feel that they can relate to.
      The same goes for any kind of project. Unless you intend to fund the project yourself (Not many can afford a manned space mission.) you will need to focus on details that the population is willing to put money into. (And I don't really think it is anything wrong with that. If you aren't going to use the money for something that the population supports then you have no right to take it from them.)
      This is one of the reasons why it might be smarter of NASA to focus on a manned space mission to Mars rather than more rovers to planets where they haven't sent any yet, even if the latter would give more interesting information.

    16. Re:Because it's closer. by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      See what I mean? Unless it's something you are actively interested in, it's easy to get them wrong. If you are trying to change peoples' priorities, you have to start with something they know. Then you can move on to things they might be unfamiliar with.

      It may not be strictly helpful (in a chicken & egg sort of way), but one very good way of getting people to care about Saturnine moons would be to find life on them. See how many people remember the name Enceladus after THAT headline.

    17. Re:Because it's closer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think your right on the money with this one. It's really about convincing taxpayers to give up billions of dollars. Mars is a hot-topic planet always in the mind's eye.

  6. Because Mars is the best chance for the price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    While missions to Europa and Enceladus may be cheaper they won't actually search for life. Instead they will stick a spacecraft in orbit around the moon and map the surface. At best, they may send a small probe to the surface that will survive a few hours in one location. On the other hand, a sample-return mission to Mars will generate knowledge and experience with a quicker turnaround and lower price than a similar mission to the moons of Jupiter or Saturn.

    1. Re:Because Mars is the best chance for the price by jaroslav · · Score: 1

      Dead on. It's not like you can just look at a pile of dirt (or ice) and tell whether there's something living in it. And you certainly can't do life detection from orbit unless you have a serious biosphere going, which obviously none of these outer solar system moons have. And the Europa drilling ideas that people like to throw around aren't going to be technically feasible in the time frame of the missions to Mars -- if ever.

    2. Re:Because Mars is the best chance for the price by Rei · · Score: 1

      Already been done. You expect them to do the same thing again?

      No, they're not going to be digging for dinosaur bones, but they're not going to just repeat what Cassini-Huygens did for kicks, either. Some of the Titan probe proposals are really fascinating, to be honest.

      --
      "It felt almost as good as stealing cars from grandma." -- Margaret Thatcher, probably.
  7. Becuase... by Mister+Transistor · · Score: 1

    Mars is where the little green men are from! The other planets and moons are obviously uninhabited.

    --
    -- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
    1. Re:Becuase... by Windwraith · · Score: 1

      You are joking, but I fear this is the actual reason. People are somehow enchanted with Mars and will never let go until they find something.

  8. Invaders come from Mars by Cassini2 · · Score: 1

    The invaders came from Mars in "War of the Worlds", written in 1898, and people have been fixated on it ever since.

    Don't expect either the U.S. military or NASA to update their plans for invasion based on almost 115 years of scientific research.

    Seriously, the plan was to go to Mars since JFK's time, because he thought the Russians might beat us to the moon. NASA never updated the roadmap.

    1. Re:Invaders come from Mars by JazzHarper · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I blame Percival Lowell more than H. G. Wells. Wells just took Lowell's ideas and made a novel out of them. Lowell, being a respected astronomer, caused people to think that it could be true.

  9. most animals are hard-wired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to want to investigate their neighborhood, and in our case that would be earth's moon, Mars, and Venus. Let's check it out.

    The cruise trips to the faraway locales can wait.

  10. Wasted effort? by zixxt · · Score: 1

    The fact that Mars as no global magnetic field, and any carbon based life would in theory die within a short period of time because of the solar radiation. I do think we are gasping for straws thinking of having a colony on the planet.

    --
    ---- GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
    1. Re:Wasted effort? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be silly. That just makes it a CHALLENGE! It's not like civilization has to be on the surface either.

      Failing all other things, we can just send Chuck Norris. That'll colonize it pretty damned easily.

    2. Re:Wasted effort? by Grekan · · Score: 1

      If we can get people to Mars without frying them in solar radiation I suspect we could probably set up bases on Mars without frying them.

    3. Re:Wasted effort? by fotoguzzi · · Score: 1

      I sometimes wonder if the low gravity would make Mars a good retirement planet for arthritics. Not so little that your bones decay, but not so much that your joints ache all 25-hour day?

      --
      Their they're doing there hair.
    4. Re:Wasted effort? by Targon · · Score: 1

      Why is everyone so fixated on the idea that every form of life should be based on Carbon? In the same way that people in general can't seem to understand that other forms of life may use senses other than the five or six humans have, people should not be hung up on Carbon and other life that is similar in form to what we currently have on Earth.

    5. Re:Wasted effort? by Kozz · · Score: 1

      Why is everyone so fixated on the idea that every form of life should be based on Carbon?

      Because we have a nearly infinite multitude of carbon-based life forms here on earth, and we know a lot about their chemistry, metabolic byproducts, behaviors, patterns, etc. We can put together a list of known items that could indicate carbon-based life, and create experiments or procedures that help us locate them. If you choose silicon (presumably), where do you start? What kind of things indicate products of silicon-based life? That's a pretty short list, I think.

      --
      I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
    6. Re:Wasted effort? by jaroslav · · Score: 1

      Also because what we know about thermodynamics tells us that analogous non-carbon (e.g. silicon) "organic"-molecules are less stable and thus less likely to be the basis for life.

    7. Re:Wasted effort? by Rei · · Score: 1

      What does thermodynamics have to do with anything, apart from a first-principles perspective?

      Look at the sort of reactions silanols undergo, for an example of non-carbon-based complexity. The thing is, even if another form of life *could* form on Earth, it'd be immediately out-competed by established carbon-based life.

      --
      "It felt almost as good as stealing cars from grandma." -- Margaret Thatcher, probably.
  11. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by zixxt · · Score: 1

    Easier to get there but it would be impossible for humans to live on Mars.

    --
    ---- GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
  12. duh by alienzed · · Score: 1

    Mars needs women.

    --
    Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
  13. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by SteveW928 · · Score: 1

    I'm just not sure what the point of that would be. Terraforming makes nice sci-fi, but isn't sustainable without incredible amounts of resources (let alone getting it started). If we want a 'launch-pad' outside of Earth's gravity, the moon would make a much better place. If we're just looking for evidence to put towards the origins of life debate, the moon is going to give us much more evidence of early earth-life. There isn't likely to be any life on Mars (other than earth-life remnants blown into space that might have landed there), as under the evolutionary paradigm, the conditions aren't right and any place where they might have been, were incredibly brief.

  14. If we visit mars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... then there will be life on it. Problem solved.

  15. Honesty? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Is someone over at NASA finally being honest? Let's face it the odds on other life being discovered in our solarsystem is virtually zero. It is extremely extremely extremely unlikely.

    But NASA is always wetting our appetites with the "possibility" of life. Why?

    Funding.

    Would US taxpayers be happy about funding extraterrestrial geologists to study rocks for the sake of studying rocks?

    Face it, the most boring person at a party is a geologist. Most people don't care about rocks.

    1. Re:Honesty? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Most people don't care about rocks.

      Many people care about special forms of rocks, known as gems.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  16. Mars is easier... by atari2600a · · Score: 1

    ...to terraform, to transport human payloads to AND to live on. Worst case scenario it makes a good outpost / transfer terminal to the life-bearing moons further out.

    1. Re:Mars is easier... by Pence128 · · Score: 1

      No on all three counts. Space habitats have much less surface area to cover with biosphere, their escape velocity is zero, and are literally designed with all the creature comforts. The only catch is you live in them, not on them.

      --
      404: sig not found.
    2. Re:Mars is easier... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As long as your space habitat has artificial gravity.

    3. Re:Mars is easier... by atari2600a · · Score: 1

      Only required for long-term stays & can be put off for a bit longer with the proper exercise regimen. Actually if the mission is one-way you could just dealwithit.gif & become a martian. (a possibility not entirely excluded by the community)

    4. Re:Mars is easier... by Pence128 · · Score: 1

      It does. It's cylindrical and spins.

      --
      404: sig not found.
    5. Re:Mars is easier... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Only required for long-term stays

      Doesn't the term "habitat" imply that?

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  17. One thing at a time by js3 · · Score: 1

    We could learn a lot from exploring the planet closest to us, before venturing out to other places.

    --
    did you forget to take your meds?
    1. Re:One thing at a time by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      We could learn a lot from exploring the planet closest to us, before venturing out to other places.

      venus is the closest planet to earth.

  18. A desert by Corson · · Score: 1

    Mars is a desert where humans cannot live. Even if NASA found dinosaur bones in the dirt on Mars, or whatever other proof that there has been life on Mars millions of years ago, who will benefit from that other than a few scientists who will publish the discovery in Science? Mars is inhospitable for vertebrates, and even for plants. Maybe they hope to find oil there, but Earth has not run out of oil yet. Europa, Enceladus, and Titan, on the other hand, might harbor different very life forms, perhaps even some that Man could communicate with.

    1. Re:A desert by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Human beings have a great reluctance towards listening to each other, why would they want to communicate with life that isn't even recognizable to human eyes, except, perhaps, to find some means of exploiting it?

    2. Re:A desert by Salvo · · Score: 2

      Humans have lived in deserts before. Common Theory is that Homo Sapiens evolved in the grasslands of Africa and thrived in the deserts. Bedouin Arabs still roam the deserts of the Middle East.

      Of all the planets in our solar system, Mars is (theoretically) the easiest to Terraform. It has lots of carbon dioxide and Water Ice, which (with the right bacteria) could be used to establish a carbon-based ecosystem. It's Day is only a half-hour or so longer than 24 hours so it wouldn't be too much of a cultural shock for our frail human bodies to adapt to.

      Lot's of Science Fiction discuss the colonisation and terraforming of Mars. Some Future Fantasy, some Hard S.F. I recommend reading Red Mars, Blue Mars and Green Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson. The Trilogy discusses the Political, Geological, Biological and Physical Sciences of Intra-Solar-system, Extra-Terrestrial Colonisation.

    3. Re:A desert by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man the AAA, folks! We have ourselves a space nutter!

    4. Re:A desert by Pence128 · · Score: 1

      Titan is already known to have lakes of methane, which in the far off future will probably be an important resource in the form of propellant. If mars did have oil, you'd need to construct launch vehicles on mars, or you would burn more fuel getting there than you would bring back. I would hope that by the time we get to that point, we will have moved long past oil.

      --
      404: sig not found.
    5. Re:A desert by Arlet · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Mars is (theoretically) the easiest to Terraform

      Not nearly as easy as terraforming the Sahara desert, though, so why don't we start there ?

    6. Re:A desert by Tomato42 · · Score: 1

      because of lower gravity you can build space elevators on mars using regular steel

    7. Re:A desert by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      Even if NASA found dinosaur bones in the dirt on Mars, or whatever other proof that there has been life on Mars millions of years ago, who will benefit from that other than a few scientists who will publish the discovery in Science?

      there is so much wrong with that statement i don't know where to begin.

    8. Re:A desert by Pence128 · · Score: 1

      We'll have run out of fossil fuels long before we're building space elevators on mars.

      --
      404: sig not found.
    9. Re:A desert by Tomato42 · · Score: 1

      I'd be surprised if a Chinese manned expedition to Moon doesn't change US space policy...

    10. Re:A desert by Pence128 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure you understand how much of an undertaking a space elevator is. The sheer mass precludes shipping materials from earth. You have to build mines, refineries and steel mills on mars. Then you start building the 34,000km tower.

      --
      404: sig not found.
    11. Re:A desert by Tomato42 · · Score: 1

      It still is actually possible using technology already available unlike earth's elevator that needs esoteric materials like carbon nanotubes. Remember that Mars has one 3rd of Earths gravity, you don't need 34,000km for geosynchronous orbit...

    12. Re:A desert by Pence128 · · Score: 1

      Mars' GEO is 17,000km. The whole point is that the centre of gravity is in geostationary orbit. A space elevator on Earth would be 72,000km long.

      --
      404: sig not found.
    13. Re:A desert by Tomato42 · · Score: 1

      You are absolutely correct, but the 34,000km is so close to Earth's geostationary orbit that I though you did use the same values. Never mind then.

  19. The Sun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes. We should look around on the sun instead.

  20. Europa by MrVictor · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, Europa has a probably has a better chance of having life in its subsurface oceans but there is that wee problem of penetrating through its icy crust. How the hell are you going to penetrate through 20 kilometers of ice (minimum estimate) without using a massive thermonuclear bomb? And then if you did, any life in the vicinity of the blast would be annihilated and then the thawed hole would freeze over before a probe could find anything. Yea, forget about Europa.

    1. Re:Europa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't break through the ice with a bomb. You have to melt through it. This can be done with nuclear material but it would take time, and I'm certain there would be people protesting that much material being launcher from Earth.

      Sample return mission to Mars is not about finding life. It's about having a sample return mission to another planet that is even remotely comparable to Earth. If you can't return a sample from Mars, how can one hope to return a man from Mars?

    2. Re:Europa by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      You can't break through the ice with a bomb. You have to melt through it. This can be done with nuclear material but it would take time, and I'm certain there would be people protesting that much material being launcher from Earth.

      Just send some ants and a magnifying glass.

    3. Re:Europa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Like this:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(moon)#Spacecraft_proposals_and_cancellations

    4. Re:Europa by ceejayoz · · Score: 1

      Seems to me it's much, much easier than all that.

      You need a base station and a penetrator. The penetrator is hooked to the base station via a tether that can play out. It has a nuclear power source that allows it to heat its exterior above the melting point of ice. The penetrator melts a hole, gravity pulls it down, and the tether gets nicely secured above it as the ice refreezes. Keep melting and playing tether out until you hit water, then do whatever - deploy a sub, sit around and look, etc.

    5. Re:Europa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slowly. Use a small reactor to generate heat, which melts the ice in the immediate vicinity of the probe, and slowly the probe will melt it's way in.

      No explosives needed, just time.

    6. Re:Europa by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      send bruce willis

    7. Re:Europa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We drill 12k holes, right now, on Earth, beneath an ocean and through the crust. So I don't think 20k sounds so unreasonable.

    8. Re:Europa by EccentricAnomaly · · Score: 1

      The ice used to be part of the ocean... sample the surface ice and you same the ocean

      --
      There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
    9. Re:Europa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How the hell are you going to penetrate through 20 kilometers of ice

      Radioactive steam drill last I heard.

    10. Re:Europa by Ed+Peepers · · Score: 1
  21. This seems unfair by JoshuaZ · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This seems unfair at multiple levels. First, we understand the basic Martian environment a lot better than other environments so sending things there are easier. Second we know from the Viking probes that Mars has weird chemistry going on in its surface. We still don't know what exactly happened there. The basic results of the Viking experiments seemed to be consistent with life but no complex carbon compounds were found. We now know that this may have been due to the presence of perchlorates in the surface material which could have destroyed the organic compounds when the samples were heated. Mars is still one of the most promising locations for life.

    That said, there are less good reasons why Mars is a frequent target. Sending things to Mars takes a lot less time than sending things to the outer systems. That means if one is a scientist one would rather work on a project that sends something to Mars than something that goes far away. Second, Mars has a place in the popular mind that these various moons do not.

    The real question that should be being asked is not why there's so much funding for Mars compared to other locations but why there's so little funding in general. The repeatedly canceled Europa missions would be in the cost range of a few hundred million dollars. This is a tiny amount when one compares it for example to how much money the US spends on Afghanistan monthly. The US has messed up priorities. That's why even as we speak, the Russians are doing a sample return mission to Phobos which will launch in a few weeks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fobos-Grunt. If the Russians were still dirty commies the US would be in an absolute panic and we'd have congressional hearings asking why the US isn't doing something similar. I hope that as China becomes more of a boogeyman the US will start taking space seriously again, if not for the good of humanity, at least for old-fashioned xenophobia. And I suppose that in the long-run I really would prefer that functioning democracies explore and colonize space than other countries, but that's so far in the future at the current rate of exploration that it doesn't seem to be immediately relevant. Right now, we need to just get some people substantially interested in exploring beyond our little rock.

    1. Re:This seems unfair by Pence128 · · Score: 5, Informative

      $100 million is about what the US spends on Afghanistan in 36 hours. It would last 6 in Iraq.

      --
      404: sig not found.
    2. Re:This seems unfair by discord5 · · Score: 1

      $100 million is about what the US spends on Afghanistan in 36 hours. It would last 6 in Iraq.

      <sarcasm>Well, that's great. There should be more money for science soon then... Right?</sarcasm>

    3. Re:This seems unfair by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      The US has messed up priorities.

      This visual comes to mind.

    4. Re:This seems unfair by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      $100 million is about what the US spends on Afghanistan in 36 hours. It would last 6 in Iraq.

      we can elect a new president and then the problem will go away^H^H^H^H we'll stop hearing about it in the media

    5. Re:This seems unfair by benhattman · · Score: 1

      The real question that should be being asked is not why there's so much funding for Mars compared to other locations but why there's so little funding in general.

      That's easy to answer. An economy can only produce so much total output. This is a classic butter or guns scenario. Should we spend money settling the stars, or should we spend it on reality television. When you consider that the average TV entertainment gained per dollar spent is stratospherically higher with reality TV, it becomes clear why money is allocated where it is.

  22. Take from the rich and give to the... rich by SuperKendall · · Score: 0

    We could probably afford it if we strip the top 1% wealth from their assets.

    You do realize if you try that, you simply change the names of the 1% as they take over the transfer...

    There will always be people with more than others. Leave people who have earned what they have alone to keep it and keep producing more, like water the money is recycled eventually in ways that benefit us all.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by dgatwood · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You do realize if you try that, you simply change the names of the 1% as they take over the transfer...

      Although you are technically correct (the best kind of correct), that's a rather useless way of viewing money. In the U.S., the top 20% have about 85% of the accumulated wealth, and the top 5% have almost 60%, which makes it a remarkably lopsided distribution, with the vast majority of people living below the mean.

      What this means is that if you repeatedly cut the top 1% down to the mean and distribute it among everyone else, it doesn't take long before you have dramatically increased the overall standard of living.

      The bigger problem I have with your post is the assumption that the rich have predominantly earned their money. There's earned income, and there's unearned income (capital gains, interest, etc.). The vast majority of working class income falls into the first category. The vast majority of upper class income falls into the latter category. So any tax scheme that does not tax the upper class more than the working class is unfair because it takes away money that the working class have earned to allow the rich to keep more money that they haven't earned.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    2. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by cyber-vandal · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, it sits in vaults doing nothing while most of the human race starve. My favourite rich guy story is this one where he was so rich he didn't even notice for a couple of years that someone had stolen loads of money from him. Trickle-down is bullshit.

    3. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by the+gnat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's earned income, and there's unearned income (capital gains, interest, etc.)

      I don't want to get caught up in another endless thread about class warfare, but how are capital gains and interest "unearned"? Investing money can be hard work, and that money isn't just sitting there - it becomes available for other purposes, such as funding new companies. I grew up watching my father spend many hours each week looking over the family's investments and planning for the next several decades of our lives - he managed to pay for several college educations this way. But according to you, he didn't "earn" any of the money he made through his investments, so it's okay to confiscate it?

      Now, the argument that people who make the majority of their income solely through capital gains should be taxed at the same rate as the rest of us - that I can pretty much agree with. But they earned it just as much as I earn my salary. I also have no problem with the concept that the tax burden should be proportional to income, or that the working poor should get a steep reduction in taxes. I don't really object to taxing the rich at a slightly higher rate either. But I'm really not comfortable telling someone that they don't deserve their wealth and should forfeit it to the government, especially given some of the batshit insane things we spend it on. And yes, colonizing Mars falls into that category.

    4. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Leave people who have earned what they have alone to keep it and keep producing more, like water the money is recycled eventually in ways that benefit us all."

      Doesn't seem to work that way. To continue your water analogy:

      Evaporation takes water from the sea and rains it out on the land, where it runs off down brooks, streams, and rivers back to the sea. And lots of people use small volumes of it as it flows back to the sea, from whence its cyclic journey begins again. And the small volumes of water used by many individuals goes back to the sea as they pee, die, run their waterwheels, whatever. Yep, a nicely recycling hydrological or monetary ecosystem. Some folks have more, others less, but most people have plenty for their needs.

      Then 1% of the people figure out how to impound runoff behind dams. These few folks impound 80% of the runoff, and they set guards around their dams and lakes to deny it to the other 99% of the population. Meanwhile, the reservoirs get deeper and wider, concentrating more and more of the available runoff into the hands of the 1% because there's just no effin' way *one* guy can use the *entirety of Lake Mead*, while ten million guys can easily keep that amount of water (money) in useful circulation.

      Hydrological/ecological result is big, deep guarded lakes in surrounding desert until water overtops the dams and breaks them. Economical/ecological result is increasing wealth concentration and societal breakdown, followed by revolution. Look around you, it's not hard to see the signs.

    5. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Pseudonym · · Score: 2

      What this means is that if you repeatedly cut the top 1% down to the mean and distribute it among everyone else, it doesn't take long before you have dramatically increased the overall standard of living.

      Errr... no. What happens is that people who sell things profiteer off the windfall. The cost of living increases to the point where the poor are still poor and the middle class are still middle class. That is precisely what happened when women entered the workforce in a big way in the 1970s.

      You have a five-figure user id, so you're probably Gen X. If your parents owned the house you grew up in, chances are good that you couldn't afford to buy it today.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    6. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by roman_mir · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What this means is that if you repeatedly cut the top 1% down to the mean and distribute it among everyone else, it doesn't take long before you have dramatically increased the overall standard of living.

      - if you repeatedly cut the top 1% down to the mean and distribute it among everyone else, what you'll have is consumer spending that is financed not with credit but with money that otherwise would continue being used in investments (whether you like the investments that these are use for or not is a different topic), but you won't have the bottom population any wealthier for it.

      They'll be able to buy more stuff with less credit, but they won't be better off at the end, specifically because the investments into actual production capacity would have been cut dramatically.

      By taking other people's investment money and 'sharing' it among everybody, you just end up with somewhat more stuff you bought in the short term, and nothing to buy in the long term, because you just destroyed the investment capital.

      The bigger problem I have with your post is the assumption that the rich have predominantly earned their money.

      - this is completely irrelevant! Yes, some have taken it from governments, because governments were handing out the cash to those, who knew how to take it.

      This problem needs to be stopped at the source, because it can't be solved at the receiving end, there is always somebody else in line for government money.

      But the question of whether somebody earned the money or not is absolutely irrelevant, the only relevant question is: what is the government doing to prevent people from investing locally and instead they either gamble or invest abroad.

      Very few people actually want to gamble with their money, majority just want some security and a revenue stream, and this means their money is used to fund some investment strategy, some form of business.

      Real economic activity is not in buying stuff - this is just a trivial consequence of production. Real economic activity is in producing stuff, and the only real production that market needs takes place when somebody has their own money on the line - skin in the game, no riskless gambling that gov't has been forcing people to engage into since 1971.

    7. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      Regardless, income should be taxed as income. The capital gains tax being so minuscule is one reason there is such a large disparity in wealth and also such an unfair bias of government to the wealthy since the middle class can't even vote with their dollars effectively when a wealthy person or corporation funnels millions at promoting political candidates that favor them, and suppressing candidates that favor the average Joe. Why the hell do you think there hasn't been more Ron Paul in the news? He is being censored by media. The working classes gets 20-30 percent of their paychecks taken away, and they typically make 30-60k, then there are people making 200K + a year from investments only getting taxed at 15 percent? Sorry, but screw that. Income is income. Investments in companies is a grossly over exaggerated benefit of our current system. When someone "invests" you end up owing them more money than you got out of them and thus they benefit from your idea and your work like a leech, that is not as nice as something called "savings" where you get to the the sole person benefiting from your money and efforts. Unfortunately the middle class can't afford to save in this economy, nor in this system that absurdly favors the wealthy. Wages have been frozen for a decade, entrepreneurship has been steadily decreasing since the 80's and all the money people put into their houses evaporated because some rich assholes who are totally sheltered from bad economies were designing fraudulent financial instruments to basically get richer.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    8. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Antisyzygy · · Score: 2

      Not exactly. The wealth disparity has been getting worse since 1945. This means overall, most of the money is going to the rich. I have no problem with rich, middle class, and poor existing, I have a problem with 95% being poor and 5% being rich. You would expect a system that benefits all people equally would maintain a relatively close distribution of wealth over time.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    9. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      If your parents owned the house you grew up in, chances are good that you couldn't afford to buy it today.

      I am confused as to what you are trying to say in your post, as the quoted line basically contradicts the first part. We can't afford houses because we are getting paid less and less while the wealthy are getting paid more and more. The only people benefiting from the US economy is the top 5 percent, the rest are basically trying to get by.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    10. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      What I'm saying is that a single-event forced redistribution of wealth would only raise the standard of living temporarily.

      When women entered the workforce, families started earning a lot more, which made them better off for a while. Then prices readjusted. Today, single-income families are essentially priced out of the property market in most places.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    11. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Yeah, ha ha hah, the rich are so dumb, and they don't deserver the money they have...

      Seriously, though, put someone in power who pledges to take away the wealth of the top 1% and what do you think will happen? He'll line his pockets and his rich friends with the money, while using it to make you do something silly. Like posing like a criminal to take naked pictures of yourself before you travel....

      The problems are many, and the "populist" movements have been co-opted long ago to help the powerful cement their power.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    12. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Surt · · Score: 2

      'Earn' doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. The idea that someone could 'earn' a billion dollars is ... hilarious.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    13. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Pence128 · · Score: 1

      Colonizing Mars in the foreseeable future is indeed batshit insane. Seriously, there's no point. Even when we start running out of surface area, space habitats will make more sense.

      Capital gains are not proportional to the amount effort you put in, they're proportional to the amount of money you put in. They're also exponential. If you reinvest, you're going to make more next year than you did this year. You're don't just make money, you make more money the more money you make.

      Your father may have spent a lot of effort, but was it work? What was accomplished? When someone goes to work at the widget factory, something has changed. Several people who did not previously have widgets now do. The stock market? From a distance to me it looks like a continuous racetrack with a lot more horses.

      I'm not advocating singling out the 1% richest people in the world and taking all their money, but any system where the only possible result is that the rich get richer needs a serious reexamination.

      --
      404: sig not found.
    14. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      What this means is that if you repeatedly cut the top 1% down to the mean and distribute it among everyone else, it doesn't take long before you have dramatically increased the overall standard of living.

      No, what history shows is that it does not take long until you have drastically reduced the overall standard of living.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    15. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by the+gnat · · Score: 2

      Capital gains are not proportional to the amount effort you put in, they're proportional to the amount of money you put in. They're also exponential. If you reinvest, you're going to make more next year than you did this year. You're don't just make money, you make more money the more money you make.

      Unless, of course, you lose money, because there is always risk involved. One of the reasons for the capital gains tax being relatively low is to encourage re-investment into the economy. I don't know at what point the capital gains rate becomes high enough to hurt the economy, although I'm sure some economists have ideas. And it does sometimes involve effort, as I'll explain below.

      Your father may have spent a lot of effort, but was it work? What was accomplished? When someone goes to work at the widget factory, something has changed. Several people who did not previously have widgets now do. The stock market? From a distance to me it looks like a continuous racetrack with a lot more horses.

      He put his money back into the economy, which means that theoretically, someone could have started a widget factory using his money, which is certainly accomplishing something. (Not that he ever had enough money to start a factory - I think my parents were somewhere in the top 5%, but above that point the gaps between each percentile start to become enormous.) But more generally, you're thinking about capital gains in too narrow a sense. If I buy a house in need of repair, fix it up and remodel it over the course of a year, and sell it for twice what I paid for it, that's capital gains, but it certainly accomplishes something useful to society. Should it be taxed at the same rate as ordinary income? Sure, if it's the primary source of income, I can't think of a good reason why not. But it's not "unearned", which is what the parent poster was claiming.

      By the way, if it's not obvious I'm at least partly playing devil's advocate here. But I have to admit that I cringe when I hear some of the arguments made in favor of more steeply progressive taxation. I agree that it's appalling that we went into debt because of upper-class tax cuts, and it's even more appalling that some people want to increase taxes on the working poor. But I also consider some of our major public expenses to be indefensible, and I also don't believe that it's moral to expect other people to pay for everything that strikes our fancy. And I say this as someone who earns well under $100,000/year, and will probably never be genuinely rich. Getting back to the original thread, I don't include NASA among the indefensible budget items (and of course it's a relatively small fraction), but if we raise taxes on the top 1%, it should be to pay off the debt and strengthen our social safety net, not start a colony on Mars (or buy more supercarrier groups, for that matter). And I'm also one of the people who genuinely hopes that someone does start a colony on Mars someday - I just don't really expect this to happen in my lifetime.

    16. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      They'll be able to buy more stuff with less credit, but they won't be better off at the end, specifically because the investments into actual production capacity would have been cut dramatically.

      What investments in production capacity? The U.S. hasn't done that in any significant way for as long as I've been alive. It just outsources the labor to some other country where the cost of labor is cheaper.

      Don't get me wrong, I think it would be great for the U.S. to invest in production capacity. I'm just not convinced that leaving the money in the hands of the same rich people who have repeatedly failed to invest in that capacity will miraculously cause that to happen. The extremely wealthy do not create jobs. The people who create jobs are the middle class workers who start small businesses.

      If you want production capacity, take the money from the rich and give it to the middle class. Some of those people will just buy consumable goods, but the ones who are not barely getting by will look for ways to invest that in things that can make money, including the production capacity you so crave.

      And sure, in the end, maybe you've created a new top 1%, but at least some part of that new top 1% will be made up of people who aren't squeezing that last cent out of the market by outsourcing everything to China.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    17. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Citation needed.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    18. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Pence128 · · Score: 1

      Ok, yeah. When I was saying capital gains I was just thinking about the stock market. The only time a company makes money on a stock is when it is first issued. After that, if you buy a stock, the only difference is the stockholder you bought from has your money and you're the person that the company now pays dividends to for as long as it exists.

      --
      404: sig not found.
    19. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Unless, of course, you lose money, because there is always risk involved

      The problem is there is a large proportion of the super rich where there is no risk involved. They screw up and we bail them out. Then they give each other million dollar bonuses because even with their screwups they still made money.
      The other problem is the class of people who make decisions that pay good in the short term, like laying off all the workers and selling the factory to the Chinese. Huge profits for a short while so they make huge money, then move on. Meanwhile the company no longer has any income and eventually goes bankrupt leaving a lot of creditors and investors holding the can. Some how society has decided that these bastards deserve even more rewards because they did really good for a short while.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    20. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      I suspect that was due to many factors, not just increased income per family. However between the 1940's and 1970's people could basically afford to purchase homes at reasonable prices, make a good living and support their families, and have a reasonable expectation that if one works hard, they will get rewarded. This doesn't happen anymore. No one with half a brain or even a rudimentary knowledge of economics is saying there shouldn't be wealthy people, or we should just take it all. Its just that currently, the benefits of this modern society are being biased towards the rich, and they have been for quite some time. Whatever the reason, it has been occurring.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    21. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by cavreader · · Score: 1

      I'm still waiting on someone to explain why there are so many billionaires in China, Russia, and all the other countries around the world decrying the evils of capitalism while promoting half assed economic systems that are supposed to bring economic justice the the average proles who spend their lives with their hand out instead of actually contributing something to society. The sad fact is that the planet is over populated and growing more so every day. Human life might be considered sacred but the last time I looked the human species was not in any danger of going extinct. Worldwide population control is the only thing that will improve the quality of life. Since the chance of that happening is nil I guess we will just fall back to the true and tried method of population control using war. The trick this time will be trying to preserve a viable ecosystem after the war is over that will support the survivors.

    22. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      What investments in production capacity? The U.S. hasn't done that in any significant way for as long as I've been alive. It just outsources the labor to some other country where the cost of labor is cheaper.

      - the U.S. has nothing to do with it. It's always done by private interest - individuals looking for a buck. In your lifetime (unless you were born prior to 1965), the conditions have been deteriorating, as U.S. was burning through the wealth created even before 1913, and obviously the monopoly wealth created between 1947 and 1965. The reasons for it are numerous, but the result of all those reasons was the same: increase labor costs, increase taxes, increase business costs by increasing regulations, protect monopolies, destroy competition, subsidize monopolies, destroy money by inflation, all of these are done by government.

      Don't get me wrong, I think it would be great for the U.S. to invest in production capacity. I'm just not convinced that leaving the money in the hands of the same rich people who have repeatedly failed to invest in that capacity will miraculously cause that to happen. The extremely wealthy do not create jobs. The people who create jobs are the middle class workers who start small businesses.

      - the rich have 'repeatedly failed' to invest?

      The reason that USA has ANYTHING is because people were investing, and yes, majority of those who really invest are rich or became rich while working on their ideas (like Wozniak and Jobs, since those are the preferred examples of today).

      Every single dollar that the rich are not spending on themselves is used as an investment. As I said previously: how exactly it's invested is a different topic, but the reasons that the investments are not done into USA's production capacity are again: government and everything it does.

      I don't know how it happened that so many people are brainwashed not to understand this, but everything that government does is detrimental to investments because it's all about spending on things government wants to spend on, it's not about building anything that the market wants and needs. It's about taking investment capital out of private investments and putting into hands of people, who just want to spend it based on their political needs, but those have nothing to do with improving the economy.

      Even when government supposedly wants to help the economy somehow, it's always failing miserably in every way possible. From the introduction of the Federal reserve and income taxes and to the new deal and SS and Medicare and every war and every department, be it energy or education or housing, whatever it touches, if money is involved, it's going to destroy it.

      If you want production capacity, take the money from the rich and give it to the middle class.

      - in absence of government preventing the economy from working that's EXACTLY what the market does!

      But you cannot take away money from rich and give it to the middle class indiscriminately, it has to be done based on a good idea that market would want to see implemented, that's why the only real way to do so is not with government at all, but as loans - investments into capital.

      There HAS to be cost associated with borrowing money, and government destroyed that cost as well now, with 0% interest, which obviously prevents anybody from being able to borrow anything (except government), who is going to lend you money at 0%? Only government.

      Government is the force that destroys investment opportunities and you are blind to it to such a great extent, that your great idea is to take more money out of the private sector and give it to the government?

      Government doesn't have the liquidity problem, it prints and borrows all it wants (especially since it was able to push interest rates down to 2% even on the long yielding curve). It's NOT the liquidity that is lacking, it never was, not when government is involved that can print.

    23. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Coriolis · · Score: 1

      I'm, say, 80% in agreement with you, but...

      When someone "invests" you end up owing them more money than you got out of them

      Is it unreasonable for someone investing in a potentially profitable enterprise to ask to share in that profit?

      Unfortunately the middle class can't afford to save in this economy

      Are you referring to the USA? I'm middle class, live in the UK and save every month. That's a very strong, general statement you're making.

      entrepreneurship has been steadily decreasing since the 80's

      What about the .com boom?

      --
      Rgasuya aata! : I have been coding Perl and cannot tell where my fingers are now!
    24. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that companies quite often buy some of themselves back, especially if they're sitting on a pile of cash and expect profits to push the stock price up later. Then they can re-sell said shares for a profit.

      And, for those who claim investments aren't earned income and should be "redistributed," go for it...so long as you redistribute losses at the same time. No having your cake and eating it here, bub. Somehow I think your tune will change a bit, though, when you get hit with the bill.

      --
      In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
    25. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 1

      The problem is there is a large proportion of the super rich where there is no risk involved. They screw up and we bail them out. Then they give each other million dollar bonuses because even with their screwups they still made money.

      The "no risk" applies to *everyone* when you think about it. Consider this: you run up your credit cards to the max, buy a big house, new car, and in general live beyond your means. Then the bills start coming in and you can't pay them. You go to bankruptcy court, file Chapter 7, and your debt is now erased. All your creditors are left screwed while you get to start over fresh. Sounds a lot like a bailout, doesn't it?

      Some how society has decided that these bastards deserve even more rewards because they did really good for a short while.

      No, society has done no such thing. Most companies have Boards that decide how to reward the executives, not "society." It's these Boards who give million-dollar golden parachutes out. Blame them? Well, actually, the Boards *are* accountable to someone. They're called "stockholders." So, much like how "society" is responsible for electing useless, corrupt politicians (thus we get the government we deserve), stockholders who sit idly by and allow Boards such behavior get what they deserve as well.

      As uncomfortable as it is, if you follow the chain of responsibility, you usually end up finding out the problem is the many of us, not the few of them.

      --
      In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
    26. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 2

      However between the 1940's and 1970's people could basically afford to purchase homes at reasonable prices, make a good living and support their families, and have a reasonable expectation that if one works hard, they will get rewarded. This doesn't happen anymore.

      I work hard, make a good living, and support my family. It is hard to do, however, because people like you keep wanting to take away my hard-earned money and, through redistribution, give it to others who haven't worked as hard or to bail out others who've made poor decisions in their lives.

      --
      In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
    27. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 1

      I have a problem with 95% being poor and 5% being rich.

      Then you have no problem, because that's not the case. Not in the US anyway. And let's not forget that the "poor" in the US enjoy a higher standard of living than the middle classes of most other countries.

      --
      In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
    28. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 1

      'Earn' doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. The idea that someone could 'earn' a billion dollars is ... hilarious.

      Hilarious doesn't mean what you think it does, either. Suppose I come up with an invention today that allows practical, sustainable, affordable, safe nuclear fusion. Such an idea would not just revolutionize an industry or a country, it would revolutionize the world. How much is that idea worth? Why, it would be worth whatever someone would be willing to pay for it. Most intelligent people would agree such an idea would be worth not just hundreds of billions, but perhaps *trillions* of dollars. And me, as the sole person who holds the idea in his head, could sell it to whoever I choose for whatever I want. Even if someone paid me $100 billion for it, they'd have gotten a bargain. But nevermind. According to you, nobody and nothing is worth that kind of money.

      At what point do you just get honest and admit this whole "kill the rich" fascination of yours has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with envy and jealousy?

      --
      In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
    29. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Space habitats don't really make all that much sense. You have problems to overcome that planetary surfaces solve simply by being planetary. Lack of gravity has been shown to be a health problem. Spinning the habitat may give you "gravity", but you introduce other problems, starting with the ability to dock with the habitat, and structural integrity of the habitat. There will ALWAYS be a risk of catastrophic decompression on a space habitat. Radiation needs to be dealt with.

      Unless, of course, you're going to build those habitats to be planet sized to provide gravity, then provide an atmosphere to stop the radiation, In which case, why not just colonize an existing planet?

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    30. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Surt · · Score: 1

      I dispute your premise. Show me the invention that hasn't had multiple people behind it. Every patent is a race to file. We have plenty of inventive people.

      And frankly, if the case you described were real, I think I and others might be willing to make an exception. None of the wealthy today are worthy of that exception. Not one.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    31. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      Pretty much everything I said applies to our situation in the US. For example, my parents at one time had their house paid off. They used the equity in this house to upgrade to a larger property further out of town (sort of as a nice retirement spot since there is a nice pond they share with neighbors and a place for horses). They did this almost 10 years ago. Once the housing bubble hit, it wiped out most of the excess equity they had from using their previous house to upgrade, and now they owe basically what their house is worth on the mortgage minus some from their payments over the years. I don't disagree that investments are important for some things, nor that the person investing deserves something for it, I am just saying that the argument "the wealthy being able to invest for start ups is beneficial for the economy" is over-exaggerated. First off, the wealthy aren't even investing due to fear and even if it that weren't true the things they tend to invest in are not small businesses. Having an economy where only the wealthy can invest in anything, and everyone else can't even save to invest to get wealthy ends up with something like feudalism. I.e. you owe them their investment plus interest and/or part of your company, they do no work in the company but you must send a portion of profits their way. Meanwhile, they exert control over you through their investment. This isn't bad in itself until this becomes the only way to start a business. Since you can't even start a business without the investments of the wealthy, the wealthy end up owning a piece of everything. You could possibly buy out their stake over time, but this of course is at the discretion of both parties (of course depending on how their contract is set up). Essentially, the distribution of wealth is causing a middle class capable of small business entrepreneurship to shrink and have to go to the wealthy class whenever they try to start anything. I say entrepreneurship is shrinking because it is. Most people are becoming employees rather than small business owners because they can't find investors, and they can't save (at least enough in a short enough period of time). http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/commentary/2011/2011-04.cfm

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    32. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      That's idiotic. It goes to other places so other people can do stuff with it. That's what investment means.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    33. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      Nice assumptions. I didn't even say anything that your response would even make sense for. I said that working hard doesn't pay off anymore. Obviously you have to do it otherwise your family starves. Its just that the effort in keeps getting you less as time progresses. It appears that you have a bone to pick against an imaginary enemy. The only bail outs I see are going to the Banks and Financial institutions courtesy of your hard work. I don't see people who have been laid off getting hardly anything. Do you not think that a plumber works hard? Or a construction worker? How about white collar workers that get laid off in large swaths to temporarily boost company profits so the CEO gets a huge bonus? Is everyone just a burn-out in your book? People do work hard, when they have a job that pays them what they are worth. Furthermore, most people on SS and Medicare are DUH retired. Most people don't want more taxes on income from their jobs, except on capital gains where it makes sense. I don't think its fair that I get taxed at 30 percent when I pull in 40k when someone is getting taxes at 15 percent on the 200K + they make on investments. Income is income, no matter where it comes from. Make it a flat tax on all income regardless of its source above 22,500 and Ill be happy.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    34. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      You would expect a system that benefits all people equally would maintain a relatively close distribution of wealth over time.

      Why would you expect that?

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    35. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      Because the net inflow/outflow of money to middle class, rich, and poor should remain more or less the same proportionally +/- some differences over time if everyone is indeed benefiting from the wealth creation in an economy. Its well known large differences between rich/poor cause problems, and in times where the middle class has the major share of wealth, the economy is booming, businesses are thriving, etc. Correlations perhaps, but worthy of caution.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    36. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      What do you think it means?

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    37. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Surt · · Score: 1

      http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/earn
      1a) to receive as return for effort and especially for work done or services rendered

      In contrast, for example, to being born to wealthy parents, and then leveraging your access to capital to exploit the work done of others and take their earnings as your own.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    38. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Killall+-9+Bash · · Score: 1

      I think (in some cases at least) investment is work, in the sense that it isn't effortless. Whether or not the work is productive, as in accomplishing anything or befitting the economy, is open to debate.

      So forget the capital gains tax.

      Increase the estate tax, and get rid of the loopholes that let people avoid the estate tax. Make the first $10million of anyone's inheritance untaxed, then tax the remainder at 99%. THAT will end the tyranny of the upper class in 2 generations... Which is why no one talks about it, and why it will never happen.

      --
      "Prediction: within 10 years, Windows will be a Linux distribution." Me, 7-6-2016
    39. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by unencode200x · · Score: 1

      Under a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, the debtors assets are liquidated. I think you meant Chapter 11 or 13 where debt is *reorganized* and the debtor still pays all of some of it back at reduced (sometimes greatly) terms.

      Bankruptcy laws were changed drastically in 2005 by lobbying from banks and other debt owners and there are now means tests and many other barriers to "erasing debt." IANL, but for an individual, I don't even think it's possible in the US.

      --

      Chance favors the prepared mind.
      Perfect is the enemy of good.
    40. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Investing money is kind of hard work. I started last week and have been making money hand over fist, but this week I'm in gold and cash because I saw the stock market starting to peak and had stop losses set that all triggered. I only made 9.02% in one week.

    41. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      The working classes gets 20-30 percent of their paychecks taken away, and they typically make 30-60k

      Unfortunately the middle class can't afford to save in this economy, nor in this system that absurdly favors the wealthy.

      I'm sorry, my net pay outstrips my expenses. I pay $725/mo for an apartment (I could get a better one for $680/mo), $60/mo for electric but $100/mo in the hottest summer months, $50/mo for cell phone, $200/mo for food. My big expenses are the $720/6mo for insurance and my $375/mo car payment.

      In the end, I have around $1400/mo in expenses and $1800/mo in savings, after paying all my benefits and paying into my 401(k). I live in a modest sized apartment that I've furnished well for around $5000. I prepare my own breakfast and lunch using luxurious high-end lunch meats (including some genuine German-made product that's fucking delicious), sushi made from raw tuna or smoked salmon... fairly regularly, lamb falls into my diet... lots and lots of shiitake and portabella mushrooms... the good stuff. I shop at Lands' End for all my clothes, which ... well, they have some very nice $70 pants and $30-$40 shirts, not to mention boxers at $15/pair.

      I'm living the high life, but I'm careful with what I buy and what I spend. I commute on a $600 bicycle that I'm replacing with a $1700 bicycle, which I'll upgrade with a $150 leather seat and $80 clipless pedals. I spend $50 per article on wool clothing--Minus 33 stuff, 100% superfine Merino wool--for the winter, and I currently have two sets of baselayers (light and medium weight) and will need an Expedition weight set to handle December and January most likely... that's $300 total, but I'll use all that stuff again next year.

      For the 7 mile commute, it takes me 5-10 minutes longer to get to and from work. I'm healthier, my commute is more fun, and I've been forced to learn to deal with the heat and cold. Cold is fatal to me, but ... well, I've never been able to handle it so well, now that I know how to dress for it effectively. As for the heat? I ignored it mostly; biked around with my 3L camelbak, shorts, long sleeve Zensah compression shirt and a moisture wicking high visibility jersey on top, 106 degrees outside and I'm fine. Had a coworker wind up in the hospital with saline IV and long-term sickness because of walking outside too much, even with plenty of water (with no electrolytes added--that was the problem, that and a fashion statement that made the sweating mechanism ineffective at cooling the body).

      On top of it, I pay less for car insurance, less for gas (I haven't put gas in my car in 2 months... I have half a tank, most of it went to elective driving because I didn't feel like biking), less maintenance, and my car lasts longer. I do drive the car once a week or two, occasionally on the highway, to keep the parts moving and make sure it gets to temperature. One day I'll buy a motorcycle for those days or distances I don't want to bike, but don't need the hauling capacity for--it's cheaper (to insure, to maintain, to replace after it's dead, and to fuel).

      I am currently behind. Given all my bicycling expenses, I'm about ... huh, actually about $500 away from breaking even just considering fuel and insurance. Next year of course I'll still have... well, more money sunk into bicycles, but that's becoming elective.

      So you see, $60k is plenty enough to save, so is $45k. And for your information, I pay around 30% for my investments because I am a shorter term swing trader: anything held for less than a year is "income" and taxed as such, rather than "Capital Gains." I also understand the tax law enough to turn that into a maximum of 16% by using my IRA as a loophole, but if I don't withdraw the money then the actual value starts cutting down because no tax is assessed until I actually withdraw. There's no income or capital gains tax, but a 6% penalty for overcontributi

    42. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      Ah yes. The "everyone with money inherited it through no merit of their own" troll, backed up with the "investing your capital in the work of others isn't a service" tripe. You're full of shit, you know that?

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    43. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Surt · · Score: 1

      Statistically, I'm right about those with money. Social mobility in this country is very low, look it up. Which is not to say that there aren't exceptions, just not many.

      And no, investing your capital in the work of others isn't service.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    44. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      Social mobility is low. Full stop. Everywhere, at all times throughout history, those who break through to a higher economic class are the exception, not the rule. Social and economic mobility is higher now than at any other time in our recorded history. I have looked it up, thanks.

      And if you somehow think that investing your capital in the work of others isn't a service...well, I don't know what to tell you. You're wrong.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    45. Re:Take from the rich and give to the... rich by sznupi · · Score: 1
      Govs ultimately reflect wishes and desires of societies, especially in moderately functional democracies. They're very much in the "market" - greatly influenced by those who have the means (which always largely boiled down to wealth) to do it; who are happy by people like you wounding up on myths.

      ~"Half a century ago it was so great" ("In your lifetime (unless you were born prior to 1965), the conditions have been deteriorating") is one of those myths. Most hilariously and paradoxically, considering you cherish it so much:

      America in the 1950s was a middle-class society in a way that America in the 1990s is not. That is, it had a much flatter income distribution, so that people had much more sense of sharing a common national lifestyle. And people in that relatively equal America felt good about their lives, even though by modern standards, they were poor--poorer, if Boskin is correct, than we previously thought. Doesn't this mean, then, that having a more or less equal distribution of income makes for a happier society, even if it does not raise anyone's material standard of living? That is, you can use the fact that people did not feel poor in the 1950s as an argument for a more radical egalitarianism than even most leftists would be willing to espouse.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  23. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by Thantik · · Score: 1

    How so? Mars is red because of Iron Oxide. Oxide = Oxygen. Mars is similar to earth in basic composition. Just need a way to extract oxygen from rust reliably and efficiently and I see no reason that it would be impossible. Plants can also be genetically engineered to behave differently or to tolerate certain environments better. There is no reason at all to say that this is impossible. Improbable, maybe. Impossible...not at all.

  24. never.. by formfeed · · Score: 1

    .. would the tea party support a NASA budget that wants to spend money for going to Europe.

    1. Re:never.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh I don't know. I think NASA can pay the $700 to fly coach without any approval from a political party.

    2. Re:never.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not likely; It would be more practical to find a economic purpose for visiting a planet/moon which would take years to reach. The reason we never went back to the moon is how expensive the trip is and how few benefits we can *currently* gain from the trip. The government can spend it's money in better areas than the pipe dream of building colonies in space.

      Now if something profitable was found in space corporations would spend money to get a profit. Which is why we don't have colonies on the moon, but we do have satellite tvs.

  25. Europa is off-limits. We can't land there. by Cow+Jones · · Score: 1, Funny

    All these worlds are yours, except Europa.
    Attempt no landing there
    Use them together
    Use them in peace

    --

    Ah, arrogance and stupidity, all in the same package. How efficient of you. -- Londo Mollari
    1. Re:Europa is off-limits. We can't land there. by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      All these worlds are yours, except Europa.

      Meddling crotchety old aliens can bite me. We'll go where we damn well please.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    2. Re:Europa is off-limits. We can't land there. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol, you beat me to it

    3. Re:Europa is off-limits. We can't land there. by Cow+Jones · · Score: 1

      Yeah well, apparently a Clarke/Kubrick reference on Slashdot is "overrated" at +1.
      I'm not complaining, just wondering what has happened to the sense of humor on this site.

      CJ

      --

      Ah, arrogance and stupidity, all in the same package. How efficient of you. -- Londo Mollari
  26. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by CPNABEND · · Score: 1

    Nahhh. I'm pretty sure there is a Wal~Mart there.

    --
    My wife doesn't listen to me either...
  27. Cause SYFY told us to by Osgeld · · Score: 1

    Now get off my lawn

  28. Re:Mars Ain't the Kind of Place to Search for Life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All of a sudden I want to go out and buy a Passat. At least I don't have to make the obligatory Rocket Man post.

  29. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by s_p_oneil · · Score: 1

    I imagine bio-engineering would be the direction to take to avoid that. If scientists can design a self-replicating micro-organism to extract oxygen from the soil and release it (and then die without leaving something toxic behind), it may be possible to make Mars easier for humans to live on. Yes it's a big "if", but it's an area scientists are making a lot of progress in, so I wouldn't discount it completely.

    However, I'd be more worried about this:
    http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast31jan_1/

    If that's true, you'd be fighting a losing battle no matter what you do.

  30. My question by Maljin+Jolt · · Score: 1

    is, why Venus seems like a tabu for exploration and research?

    --
    There you are, staring at me again.
    1. Re:My question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because anything that enters the atmosphere is horribly destroyed? We do have a lot of probes that have seen it from orbit, though.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus#Exploration

    2. Re:My question by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      is, why Venus seems like a tabu for exploration and research?

      872 degree F surface temperature, 93 bar surface pressure, a bunch of hydrochloric acid that, along with the temperature and pressure melts everything in a few minutes.

      What's not to like?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:My question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And for the scientists among us that is 460 C surface temperature, 9.3 MPa surface pressure and, ahem, sulfuric acid clouds and sulfur dioxide in the atmosphere at the hotter lower altidudes.

    4. Re:My question by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Venus' middle and upper atmosphere may contain life. There's even some spectrograph results which suggests such.

    5. Re:My question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surface conditions (880F/470C, high pressure, corrosive atmosphere) cause probes to stop functioning after only a couple hours. Sending probes to Mars gets us much more information about a place where we could live much more easily.

    6. Re:My question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      is, why Venus seems like a tabu for exploration and research?

      I know right! Venus has beaver!

    7. Re:My question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because of the choking clouds of sulfuric acid and temperatures to melt lead.

    8. Re:My question by LongearedBat · · Score: 1

      What? Spending lots of money to land on a hot body? That's too politically incorrect. ;)

    9. Re:My question by Shadowmist · · Score: 1

      is, why Venus seems like a tabu for exploration and research?

      For one thing, Venus' conditions pretty much guarantee, that the planet is sterile. Second, Venus is literally Hell on landing craft. An extended mission on the surface is one that lasts more than 60 minutes before the intensely hot and corrosive atmosphere EATS the probe.

  31. There are many research goals by Hentes · · Score: 2

    other than just looking for life. Also, Mars probes can operate for years not just for hours like the one on Titan.

  32. "ALL THESE WORLDS..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All these worlds are yours now except Europa. Make no attempt to land there.

    That's why.

  33. Even if Wal-mart is operating on Mars, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and it's chock full of cheap plastic (organic) crap, it doesn't mean there's anything even remotely similar to life to be found there.

    And who ever said that space exploration had to focused exclusively on finding extraterrestrial life? Mars holds untapped potential for investment! Once we're there and we've laid claim to it, we can start divvying it up and selling it off. The real estate market could real use shot in the arm (or the head).

  34. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by Teun · · Score: 1

    A Wal-Mart, you mean the Chinese got to Mars?

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  35. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then all we would have to do is figure out how to create a molten iron core in the planet and give said core rotational motion. Geez, it's just that easy..
    Of course we could always burrow underground and contain ourselves within the artificial environment we create there. But if we are going to do that, we are better ff staying out of a gravity well.

  36. It's about fulfilling people's expectations by petes_PoV · · Score: 1

    NASA isn't there to find extraterrestrial life, it's there to get funds to do exploration. On that basis, do you think it will be easier for them to finance a mission to Mars or one to some distant rock that nobody outside the scientific community has heard about, cares about or could find on a map?

    If they fail to find life on Mars (despite the David Bowie song), they can recover by saying "we haven't failed, we just haven't succeeded YET". However if they "waste" billions on a mission to one of the more likely, but unpronounceable candidates, then "the public" will start asking questions about why they were looking there, when everybody knows Mars is a better bet.

    NASA's main goal is to secure its own future. It won't achieve that by trying to spend money on unpopular things that taxpayers aren't prepared to fund.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:It's about fulfilling people's expectations by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

      That's part of it, but looking for life on Europa is a mission FAR beyond our current state of the art. It's not going to be on the surface, far too much radiation and no atmosphere. It's postulated to be in a postulated water ocean postulated to be buried under a tens or hundreds of miles thick ice sheet. We have no direct evidence that the ocean is there, we have no direct evidence of how thick the ice might be, and to some degree, what it's made of.

          Even taking all the presuppositions as accurate, we have NO IDEA how to build something that will reliably bore through the ice, cruise around doing science experiments, and then somehow relaying the data back to Earth. Or to make a completely autonomous submarine (autonomous since there's almost certainly no way to control it live or via relay) that will take hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of atmospheres of pressure.

            And of course all the presuppositions may well be wrong.

                Hey, I want to see what's under the ice, too. But I work in this business, on state-of-the-art spacecraft, and I this is decades to hundreds of years beyond our capabilities.

          They explore Mars because they know how to do that, it's much easier and doesn't stress the limits of known technology to an absurd degree.

            Brett

    2. Re:It's about fulfilling people's expectations by Rei · · Score: 3, Interesting

      1) The simplest boring device is merely a boring (pardon the pun) RTG or nuclear reactor, melting its way in slowly over the course of years.
      2) You don't have to bore to get to the subsurface; ice volcanism brings it up for you. Heck, an Enceladus probe doesn't even have to *land*, thanks to its geysers. BTW, Enceladus isn't the only Saturnian moon with ice geysers -- just the one with the biggest ice geysers.
      3) Please propose an alternative Europa hypothesis to a subsurface ocean.

      I noticed you didn't discus Titan. Titan should be an incredibly easy body to explore due to its combination of a thick atmosphere and low gravity -- hot air or helium balloons, powered blimps, helicopters, fixed-wing aircraft, variable-pitch wing aircraft, autogyros, etc. While the Delta-V requirements to get there are certainly high, they're tempered somewhat by the very easy aerocapture. It's an ongoing laboratory of organic chemistry due to the photocatalytic chemical reactions in its upper atmosphere (likely creating the tholins found all over the Saturnian system -- which we really know very little about, apart from that they're complex organic chemical compounds). It has seasonal and permanent organic lakes, ice volcanism dredging material up from the warmer subsurface, tectonic activity, and on and on. Honestly, of all the bodies in the solar system, I think Titan calls out the most for exploration.

      --
      "It felt almost as good as stealing cars from grandma." -- Margaret Thatcher, probably.
    3. Re:It's about fulfilling people's expectations by Rei · · Score: 1

      Find on a *map*? Of the solar system? Is that a joke?

      You really think a lay person can't understand "a moon of Saturn" or "a moon of Jupiter"?

      --
      "It felt almost as good as stealing cars from grandma." -- Margaret Thatcher, probably.
  37. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by muon-catalyzed · · Score: 1

    > would be impossible for humans to live on Mars

    Who cares? This is all about "the first post" thing, the first human who sets his foot on Mars wins, period.

  38. Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We'll just end up spraying Roundup(TM) on it,shooting, weed-wacking or declaring war on it. YES WE CAN!

  39. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A Wal-Mart, you mean the Chinese got to Mars?

    Yeah, where else do you expect the red chinese to be?

  40. Weel if Arnold want to be president by countertrolling · · Score: 1

    He can be president of Mars. I'm sure it would be perfectly constitutional

    --
    For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    1. Re:Weel if Arnold want to be president by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      He can be president of Mars. I'm sure it would be perfectly constitutional

      I don't know. I wasn't able to find a copy of the constitution of Mars.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  41. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by Ruke · · Score: 1

    We're not looking to discover what early Earth life looked like; we have Earth for that. What we're looking for is life that evolved in a completely isolated environment. Life on earth pretty much all uses DNA and RNA - it was the "fittest" self-replicating pattern, and it's pretty much got a monopoly on Earth. But if we can find life out there that hasn't had to compete with any of the lifeforms on earth, and didn't evolve from any life forms on earth, that would be incredibly interesting. We'd get to see if our set of amino acids were just the solution that life on earth stumbled upon, or if they're so head-and-shoulders above the competition that they will form wherever they can form.

    I can't figure out what you mean by "the conditions aren't right under the evolutionary paradigm." Honestly, the sentence parses as gibberish. The basic ideas behind evolution don't even require organic matter. As Dawkins points out in "The Blind Watchmaker," any pattern that is predisposed to create copies of itself will show up in an environment more often than a pattern which is not. If the copying process has the potential to introduce random transcription errors, the it has all it needs to perform a search of the local pattern-space for "best pattern at copying itself." And, with scarce resources, there is an external pressure for these self-replicating patterns to be best at self-replicating. Nothing in here demands a perfectly earth-like environment. Water certainly helps, because all sorts of interesting chemical reactions occur at an impressive rate in aqueous solutions, but if we're looking for life outside of Earth, we need to be prepared to look for life not-quite-as-we-know-it.

  42. NASA's primary mission: Islamic outreach by scorp1us · · Score: 2

    NASA has no real scientific focus. It's just all over the place. If I were in charge, I would give it one primary mission, and a secondary mission, and then have a tertiary agenda.

    Agendas:
    1. Detection and defense of incoming bodies, including the development of better D&D technology. Eventually this will be fulfilled and go into maintenance mode, where Agenda 2 then gets primary funding.
    2. Find life using existing technology including the development of better D&D technology. While this will never be complete (once we find it we can keep on finding it) we will look for more and more sophisticated forms. (I assume extraterrestrial bacterial detection would happen first, then complex organisms)
    3. All other efforts on determining the nature of the universe. JWST, Hubble, etc.

    As far as I am concerned NASA has no reason to send humans off planet. We should be developing Avatar-like technology for near earth operations and AI driven tech for stuff where the lag is too long.
     

    --
    Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
    1. Re:NASA's primary mission: Islamic outreach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's better D&D technology already! It's called AD&D. "A" is for "advanced".

    2. Re:NASA's primary mission: Islamic outreach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm, I thought Dungeons & Dragons already had far superior technology. Wait, why would NASA be interested in developing better technology for Dungeons & Dragons?

    3. Re:NASA's primary mission: Islamic outreach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Leaving the planet is essential to long-term human existence in the universe. Seems like a good thing to spend our collective government money on. And it's not inconsistent with your listed missions anyway - #1 admits our basket of eggs is in a precarious position.

    4. Re:NASA's primary mission: Islamic outreach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I for one have longed for 21-sided dice for many years. Enhancing this D&D technology would mean much to us Slashdot readers.

  43. Education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The sooner education becomes a priority, assuming we can help people avoid starvation, the sooner we will care more about pursuing R&D that leads to other planets. Currently, we are stuck pursuing the fantasies of old sci-fi comics, which focused on Mars and influenced the baby-boomer generation, which is currently controlling the bulk of economic capital. Education can help us move beyond this stagnation.

  44. Re:Europa - don't have to penetrate the ice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just take samples from the areas on the surface where water is welling up from underneath and refreezing.

  45. because of Mars expansion cracks by sittingQuietly · · Score: 0

    which are taboo. So they pretend to themselves it's from recent water .. which might mean life, if it made sense, which it does not.

  46. I donno, it might be a pretty good place to look. by IMarvinTPA · · Score: 1

    Just try looking a bit harder. You may wish to check out the leads at http://www.marsanomalyresearch.com/index.htm

    Then again, would you really want to find life there and open that bag of worms?

  47. It's also not the kind of place to raise your kids by me+at+werk · · Score: 2

    In fact, it's cold as hell.

    --
    For context, click Parent.
  48. Earth is best place to search for life! by khallow · · Score: 1

    Seriously, if we're going to consider best places to search for life, then Earth probably has to be on the top of the list. It's the closest planet to us and very easy for us to study, it's solidly in the temperature zone necessary for water-based life and even has liquid water oceans on its surface, and finally, we already know there's life there and what it looks like. So if we're going to look for life based solely on which place has the best chances of finding it, then we need not look past Earth.

  49. Least stress by uvajed_ekil · · Score: 0

    To do my best work, I prefer my Asus laptop, a fine cognac, and your mom's bed. Then a morning alone in my home office with a real keyboard in a supportive chair. Happiness=productivity, so she should be even more productive than my amazing

    --
    This is a hacked account, for which the owner can not be held responsible.
  50. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by tqk · · Score: 1

    But if we are going to do that, we are better [off] staying out of a gravity well.

    Agree. We ought to be mining the asteroid belt, building vast tin cans filled with habitable environments, spinning to provide gravity.

    I'm sure that'd be a lot simpler than terraforming, though there'd still be a lot of things to work out, such as shielding from cosmic rays, holding in enough atmosphere at Earth air pressure (it'd be a bomb out there, after all), and any number of "what if"s that the engineers/planners fail to anticipate. "What, there's no calcium to be found in the Asteroid Belt?!?"

    Still better than holding all our eggs in one bucket (Earth) as we are now. Considering Earth's history, we ought to be taking Extinction Level Events more seriously. This ought to be humanity's main priority.

    --
    "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
  51. Politics. Next question? by MikeV · · Score: 1

    Really - the Moon landings were also a political stunt and nothing more. The uppity-ups are not interested in science. Just in trophies. Titan, Europa and other moons of the outer planets are just too unknown by the average Leno Jay-Walking crowd who can barely tell you who the first president was but can tell you every word Snookie spouts out on a given episode. Mars, tho, is a viable trophy because even with the intelligence drain that is sucking the brains out of the average public citizen while they bake their buns in front of reruns of Jersey Shore or are rabidly following the antics of the Kardashians inbetween tweeting about every bowel movement, everyone knows about Mars. The Moon is so 39 years ago. Mars is the current fad. If future missions don't end in catastrophe, it too will be mostly forgotten as the Apollo missions have (except for Apollo 13 since most of what the average couch-potato knows of that came from the movie).

  52. Mars is still a good candidate by t2t10 · · Score: 1

    Mars may be fairly dry, but it clearly has liquid water, some organics, and reasonably high temperatures.

    I don't see why this needs to be an either/or scenario. If we stop wasting money on sending people into orbit, we can send a fleet of advanced robotic probes to all of these destinations.

    1. Re:Mars is still a good candidate by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2

      If we stop wasting money on sending people into orbit

      The money spent on sending people into orbit is negligible to the money spent on sending people to Iraq.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:Mars is still a good candidate by t2t10 · · Score: 1

      Wonderful. So you persuade your elected representatives to redirect money from Iraq to manned space exploration.

      Until you succeed, however, NASA should focus on cost-effective and rational space exploration, which means unmanned space exploration.

  53. What if... by mlauzon · · Score: 1

    There were life on the planets those moons orbit..?!

  54. Public perception, perhaps? by pgpalmer · · Score: 1

    Life on Mars = either "a TV show" or "stick to what they know"

    as opposed to

    Life at other places = "never heard of these places - stick with Mars"

  55. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by Arlet · · Score: 1

    Considering Earth's history, we ought to be taking Extinction Level Events more seriously. This ought to be humanity's main priority

    No way. Complete human extinction events are so incredibly unlikely that we should not be spending insane amounts of resources to prevent that.

    Also, even if we tried, the effort would be wasted anyway. Suppose this extinction event would happen 100,000 years from now. What is the chance that anything we build or do right now will survive the next 100,000 years ? It's practically zero.

  56. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

    OK, so the problem is lack of a magnetic field. Well, we know how to create magnetic fields. Just put a big coil around Mars' equator and send a big current through it. :-)

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  57. Re:Mars Ain't the Kind of Place to Search for Life by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

    ...in fact, it's cold as hell.

    So hell has finally frozen?

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  58. Simple behavior. by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

    What the first poster said:

    Mars is closer and easier to send people to

    and the fact that people (including scientists), that have a very publicized name/image, have a real issue scrapping programs once the following simple pattern occurs:

    - something looked really good, project planned
    - money was allocated, stuff was built
    - project accomplished phase 1
    - additional phases planned
    - project proven to be less valuable than newly planned alternatives

    Very few can say, "Fascinating. I guess this project is no longer as important as the other one(s)."

    Most say, "Mine is still the best idea, and I can prove to you why. Just give me some more money and time. Stop being distracted and let's get back on task here."

    Quickly summarized version, but I think anyone who can read gets the drift.

  59. why not the moon by anonieuweling · · Score: 1

    If you believe youtube, NASA did blur stuff on the moon to hide the presence and/or remnants of aliens or their stuff.

  60. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by tqk · · Score: 1

    Considering Earth's history, we ought to be taking Extinction Level Events more seriously. This ought to be humanity's main priority

    No way. Complete human extinction events are so incredibly unlikely that we should not be spending insane amounts of resources to prevent that.

    Earth's already gone through, what, five of them, and now we're capable of producing our own via the numerous nuclear arsenals out there, not to mention people fiddling with bio-weaponry. Considering how smart people and politicians are, do you really want to leave this to the last? The downside is way bigger than the cost.

    --
    "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
  61. Re:Mars might be the best place to put life, thoug by Arlet · · Score: 1

    Earth's already gone through, what, five of them

    That's about one per billion years, and the solar system now has fewer big rocks wandering around. Also, humans have a better chance of surviving an impact than dinosaurs, at least some humans. We can build shelters, for instance, and keep food in storage for a long time. We're also much smaller, so we don't need so much food, and we're much more adaptable and creative.

    And if you don't trust people with our nuclear/biological weaponry, why would you trust them to keep a colony running on another planet ? They'll fuck that up too.

  62. Europa (and other outer planets) are not cheaper. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I worked at JPL and on MSL (the mission that grew to 2.5 billion). I also worked on some internal R&D for some systems that *might* end up on a Europa mission.

    Europa and other bodies around Jupiter have to deal with an intense radiation environment. It'll take many years to get there, but the actual mission life will be short. I think once we did orbits around Jupiter you would orbit Europa. Orbiting Europa repeatedly puts the spacecraft through radiation hell and I think the electronics would die within like 45 days? Also, no FPGAs exist that can take the total integrated dose to last long enough to get some science done, so almost all of the electronics would need to be ASICs. Probably on the order of 30 new ASICs for all the control avionics and science instruments. That's a huge undertaking and is not cheap to do.

    Just a short list, but these are some of the complications in going to Europa and why it's not a cheapy mission ($300 M). Maybe, *maybe* you could do it for a billion? But hey, MSL was bid I think at $0.8 billion and look what it grew to. These undertakings are huge, and sometimes it's a situation of not knowing what you don't know which quickly increases cost when the scope is finally realized (or glimpsed).

  63. Europa is not that cheap by frznchckn · · Score: 1

    I used to work at Jet Propulsion Laboratory, worked on MSL (the Mars rover mission that's grown to $2.5B), and did some R&D on a system that *could* end up on a Europa mission. The entire Jovian system is a radiation nightmare. If I remember correctly, it'll take years for the spacecraft to get there, we can orbit Jupiter relatively safely, but as soon as we orbit Europa or Ganymede, mission life is like another 45 days? The electronics will simply die of overdoses of radiation. Also, currently no FPGAs, can survive this radiation environment long enough to get any science done. Yes, there are *some* rad-hard FPGAs, but, again, they cannot take the total integrated dose (TID) of radiation that the Jovian environment is going to dish out in a short about of time. This means, the spacecraft would need about 30 ASICs between control avionics and instrument packages. That is no small (nor cheap) undertaking. I don't know what they mean by "cheap" missions. I think of earth orbit sats for like $300M, but you're not going to Jupiter for less than $1B. But even then, I think MSL was originally bid at $0.8B and look what happened. These systems are ridiculously complex and sometimes it's a situation of not knowing what you don't know. When you finally get a glimpse of what's really going on, well costs go up... a lot. Also, NASA doesn't just say, "hey let's go here". It's all about the science and you need scientists that want to study something there. The most recent decadal survey (http://www.universetoday.com/83813/where-to-next-decadal-survey-prioritizes-future-planetary-missions/) showed more scientists interested in Mars and what-not compared to outer planet missions.

  64. The National Aeronautics and Space Act by rotenberry · · Score: 1

    Since when has the search for extraterrestrial life been part of NASA's mandate? And why must the search for life be the sole reason for NASA to launch a scientific mission?

    Consider http://www.nasa.gov/offices/ogc/about/space_act1.html

    Here are NASA's objectives according to the National Aeronautics and Space Act:

    "(1) The expansion of human knowledge of the Earth and of phenomena in the atmosphere and space.

    (2) The improvement of the usefulness, performance, speed, safety, and efficiency of aeronautical and space vehicles.

    (3) The development and operation of vehicles capable of carrying instruments, equipment, supplies, and living organisms through space.

    (4) The establishment of long-range studies of the potential benefits to be gained from, the opportunities for, and the problems involved in the utilization of aeronautical and space activities for peaceful and scientific purposes.

    (5) The preservation of the role of the United States as a leader in aeronautical and space science and technology and in the application thereof to the conduct of peaceful activities within and outside the atmosphere.

    (6) The making available to agencies directly concerned with national defense of discoveries that have military value or significance, and the furnishing by such agencies, to the civilian agency established to direct and control nonmilitary aeronautical and space activities, of information as to discoveries which have value or significance to that agency.

    (7) Cooperation by the United States with other nations and groups of nations in work done pursuant to this chapter and in the peaceful application of the results thereof.

    (8) The most effective utilization of the scientific and engineering resources of the United States, with close cooperation among all interested agencies of the United States in order to avoid unnecessary duplication of effort, facilities, and equipment.

    (9) The preservation of the United States preeminent position in aeronautics and space through research and technology development related to associated manufacturing processes."

  65. Program Suicide by Alcanazar · · Score: 1

    This is another example of Program Suicide, which has been responsible for so many Big Projects programs being killed. When the budget gets tight, the leaders of different sections of the program start fighting for resources. They start campaigning for allies outside the program, who in turn use the in-fighting to as an excuse to have the program cut. In this case, NASA as a whole is committing suicide. Manned vs. Robotic programs, Inner planets vs. Outer planets, missions vs. research. Add to this the groups pushing commercial space vs. NASA, and the whole U.S. space program is killing itself. There are a lot of groups that want NASA's money and the space community is helping those groups to get it. If we kill the space program this way, we deserve the consequences!

  66. This is the elephant in the room. by krondell · · Score: 1

    Thanks. This the subject nobody's talking about. Our priorities are so fucked up. Why are we talking about going to Mars vs. Europa? We need to do all of it! And instead we're pissing away orders of magnitude more money on smart bombs and cruise missiles and replacement limbs for brave kids. WTF?

  67. Easier to get funding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Getting funding to explore Uranus is a lot Harder.

  68. Alan Stern by rk · · Score: 1

    Has had an axe to grind with the Mars program for a long time. Nothing new to see here. He's probably also bitter ever since the IAU demoted the planet his baby is headed to a "dwarf planet."

    Full disclosure: when he was the science director at NASA, he threatened funding changes that would've put me out of a job, so he's not my favorite person in the world, so take the appropriate amounts of salt with MY comments.

    With all that said, I agree with him to an extent. I would *love* to see more attention to the moons of Jupiter and Saturn. But the anti-science, cut the budget at all costs people are ascendant right now, and their opposition is pretty luke-warm at best to the space program. The Mars program has momentum and the chances of us getting all the cool stuff funded is virtually nil. I doubt the sample return mission he's talking about will even get funded, especially in light of a recent OMB releases. For missions to Jupiter and Saturn to get any congressional love right now is not likely.

  69. Please don't forget... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We've been warned! Make no landings on Europa!

  70. PR by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Everyone who cares, knows what Mars is. Most people do not know who, where, or WTF Europa, Titan, and Enceladus are. When a big part of the mission would be public appeal, that does count.

  71. Summary is misleading about mission costs by WildBlueYonder · · Score: 2

    So why is NASA spending $2.5B on the next Mars Rover and planning to spend over $6B more on a Mars sample return when it can't find the money for much cheaper missions to Europa or Enceladus?"

    This summary doesn't accurately describe the situation at all. The Mars missions are so more expensive largely because they are doing more. The next Mars Rover is going to be larger, heavier, and more capable than the two previous--wildly successful--rovers in pretty much every way. That $6B mission is a sample return mission, lifting off and bringing a research payload from Mars back to Earth is an enormous technical challenge. It's never been done before and that will drive most of the cost.

    Also the linked missions aren't quite as cheap as the summary implies. The proposed mission to Europa has an estimated cost of $2.5 billion (and $4.7 billion is the given estimate in the last paragraph of the first link in the summary), exactly the same price as the first "overly expensive" Mars mission mentioned. The Enceladus trip is much cheaper, estimated at a little over half of a billion, so that at least is a reasonable alternative, though I still want to point out that that mission is much earlier in the planning stages, and missions that diverge a lot from previous missions are more likely to have ballooning costs as new found kinks are worked out.

    Another issue is that not only are the Mars missions promising more, but there is a much greater chance that they will be able to live up to those promises. Every single Mars mission we've done so far has added to our body of knowledge on the planet, and our ability to better plan a mission and engineer a craft that can get more and better data on the next run. From Viking and on we have answered many, many questions about Mars, and learned about even more questions (meaning that we know the sort of doodad that needs to be on the next mission to answer that new question). Starting a new series of missions to a new celestial body means that in a lot of ways you have to start back at the drawing board again. This is another reason to start small on a new body, better to have 3-4 partially successful $200 million missions leading up to that big $2.5 billion dollar rover mission rather than trying plan a $2.5 billion mission right of the bat.

    I should clarify that I don't think that investigating these moons is a bad idea. I think it's a wonderful one. However I don't think that we should investigate these moons in place of Mars, when we have already accumulated so much experience on how to investigate Mars. It's also worthwhile to note that this was the viewpoint of every scientist interviewed in the article. Nobody said that they didn't want to go to Mars, they all said that they wanted this moons visited in addition to Mars, not instead of.