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Valve's Gabe Newell On Piracy: It's Not a Pricing Problem
New submitter silentbrad writes with a followup to our discussion this morning about Ubisoft's claims of overwhelming game piracy. An article at IGN quotes a different point of view from Gabe Newell, CEO of Valve:
"In general, we think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem. For example, if a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the U.S. release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate's service is more valuable. Most DRM solutions diminish the value of the product by either directly restricting a customers use or by creating uncertainty."
The quote was taken from an interview at The Cambridge Student Online, in which Newell speaks to a few other subjects, such as creating games for multiple platforms and e-sports.
And yet Steam has that USD=Euro conversion and region locked pricing.
I was about to buy a copy of GTA IV on Steam during the sale they've got going. With credit card in hand, I found out in some reviews that the PC version requires Games for Windows Live for saving and installs SecuROM. Dealbreaker right there and I never purchased.
DRM does not stop pirates, they are smart enough to circumvent it, it only annoys legitimate users.
Or, I can just wait for a crack before I install a DRMed game whether I purchased it legitimately or not - with the net result being less DRM related issues.
I'd say DRM encourages piracy more than anything. I'd rather a game just work, than having to jump through hoops to make it work. If a game has something like Securom, frankly I'd rather pirate than have to deal with it. DRM never works, it will always be cracked. There's no getting around that fact.
In truth I never like pirating, if a company makes a good game I'm of the opinion that they deserve my money, but sometimes they don't make it easy to take. Dreamfall is a noticeable game I remember, I have the boxed copy which uses a disk check, but thankfully there are loads of DRM-free .exe's the pirates have provided.
Y'all are responding to a troll post.
Love sees no species.
I for one like brushing my teeth with dog-shit. It ensures that people I don't want to talk to avoid me. Dog shit also discourages plaque growth due to overwhelming levels of bacteria, and most people have teeth.
Sorry but the only instances of pirated games I have ever seen (and btw didn't download) were cracked versions of a game that could be downloaded for free. I haven't seen a site offering to sell me someone else's game for a fee. I agree its a matter of convenience in a lot of cases - when something cool is out people want access to it now - but I think it must be a much less common thing that people buy the game from a pirate. I have never associated piracy with a separate sale arrangement, just people who want something for free, or simply want it where its not available or (as noted by an Aussie above) its grossly overpriced and people feel ripped off.
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
here prices are sky right and population's consumption power is not first world, mainly because of taxes that double the game's cost for the consumer. Prices here are not as bad as Australian's as far as I know, but it's the major player into piracy decision making, besides the growing culture of "only dumb people pay for what you can get for free".
This combination doesn`t exist: ETIs that know about humanity and want to see us dead. Otherwise we wouldn't exist.
Hahahaha. Haaaaaahahaa.
I think you're joking , i hope you're joking. It's funny....
Except it doesn't discourage piracy at all. It encourages people to break DRM. Sure most people have internet connections, and they are interested in breaking the DRM, they will use that connection to follow the instructions people post online on how to break that DRM.
The last game I ever bought was Riven (so that gives you an idea of how long ago). I was planning on installing it on a sub-mini notebook (predecessor to what is now called a netbook) and playing it during a long trans-Pacific flight. I did so based upon the assurance that it could be loaded onto my hard drive.
After loading the disks onto my hard drive and trying to run it, I was delivered a rude message that it would not run without disk 1 in the DVD drive. Uh, the whole reason why I loaded it onto my hard drive was so I wouldn't need the (external and requiring AC power) DVD drive to play the stupid game.
At a friend's suggestion, I downloaded a hacked version from a Russian site. Fortunately that hacked version didn't carry any malware. I didn't feel the slightest amount of guilt; I had BOUGHT the damn game after all.
After I returned home, having solved Riven on the flights, I deleted it. I never bought, nor played, another PC game again.
Honestly, DRM keeps me from spending a single cent on computer games. As a musician and VJ, I need a responsive low-latency system and full control over my hardware. The unwanted crap that almost any game will install is just unacceptable for me. So it's no games for me. And for pretty much anyone who has to rely on his machine it's just the same.
Oh, the beautiful gloss of greality!
The problem has never been about price. Piracy is about a need in the market that has not been fulfilled.
Some people see an unfulfilled need in the market as a business opportunity. But unfortunately most of the old media only see it as a threat to their old business business models.
Having a service problem doesn't mean there isn't a pircing problem as well. The three biggest issues IMO are pricing, service, and respect, although I'm sure other issues play a role as well. However, the respect problem isn't the 'pirates don't respect intellectual property' garbage, but rather, the lack of respect for customers from copyright holders. The FBI warnings on DVDs being a good example of disrespect that only affects those that actually BUY the product.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
When the pricing of a software package gets to be too outrageous (not in terms of value but simply compared to how much cash one has on hand), then pricing becomes a significant issue as well. For example, a graphical WYSIWYG HTML editor, a graphics editor, a text layout tool, a math package, etc. each for $400 makes it quite difficult to afford the software. Most people are willing to lay down some sizeable dough for one program but, when you need to lay out $400 for your office package and 10 others each of which will need upgrades for $200 in several years it gets to be an investment that is not very workable.
OTOH, if the same software were available 24/7 for immediate download (with no support unless paid for) for a much reduced price -- say $50, the quantities sold will be much higher and the software company can reduce its costs by eliminating Best Buy and a host of other stores that take 50% off the top anyway. Additionally, there is no packaging, manuals, DVDs, etc. that need to be printed / burned nor shipping. The costs for the software company will go down and their sales will go up. I might be even tempted to try software that I wouldn't ordinarily buy simply because the software is not cost prohibitive.
The Apple Appstore is really a good example of this. Yes, the software is underpriced compared to an office package on your office PC but it does drive home that you don't need to charge $40 for a game and you can do it for a $1.00 instead -- a 40 fold price reduction. Oh, yea, Angry Birds has about 500 Million downloads now .... If Photoshop were $10 - $20 and available for instant download, I suspect that Adobe could make a lot more than they do. Especially when they double charge you by printing the "manual" in book form and then your having to buy it from the Last Bookstore in America.....
Make a reasonable price, make easy to pay (paypal?), make easy to buy/download, do not annoy me with DRM or "you must be on to play" and I will buy the game. Is so difficult?
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
Piracy is a natural response to people who want to "CONTROL". The issue is not about IP, its not about getting something for nothing. Time and time again research, the research generated by the very vendors of IP, says people are happy to pay for something of value. That they simply want what they want the way the want it. It is the unbridled need, addiction to, the control of something that has become the crux of the piracy debate.
The irony is, that by punishing consumers for the fear of being robbed, precipitates the actual robbery. People just ask to get their music, movie or game, simply, easily, and accessibly from any technology they possess. It is the draconian measures which now threaten to destroy (SOPA) the very conduit our collective futures rely on (the Internet), that is a clear extension of the avarice and need to control. These people have enjoyed decades of complete control, allowing an infrastructure of suppliers and middlemen to rape artists at one end and consumers at the other. With the advent of growing technology, old paradigms fail. For these people, the answer is not to learn how to leverage the amazing power of the new technology, but strangle it so they can bring back the bad old days. We need to make it clear to our representatives in no uncertain terms, that the future demands that the internet be free, broad and democratic.
... sorry but pricing is a major issue. How this man cannot say that it is't when games go on sale for 75% off on his site frequently seems ludicrous. The big things effecting modern games are:
1) Game quality
2) DRM
3) Buyers avoiding paying more then $15-20 for DRM laden crap they don't own.
Lots of people avoid buying games entirely because of DRM and low game quality. There are those of us who buy games at extremely deep discounts (5-15$ at most) on steam because of DRM we refuse to pay full price for DRM infested games that we don't own but we do want to support PC developers and have few alternatives since many small developers release on steam.
Gabe has done a lot of marketing to brainwash people and get people to thinking he's a good guy but he's not, if he was the good guy games would deprecate their DRM after a year and the exe's unhooked from steam. The purpose of steam is to datamine users for 'business reasons' and he's putting this massive spin his datamining operation. This means more metrics driven game development as if we didn't have this enough of this alread with the constant clones every year.
Standard excuses for not paying for this or any other game (pick any that apply):
1) I will pirate it first and then pay only if it is PERFECT. As in, every thing else in life that I will consume and then not pay for if I decided I didn't like it after the fact.
2) My pirating is good for the software developer (more people playing, even without paying is good, it gives them lots of free publicity). Piracy increases sales! I am doing them a HUGE favor.
3) I am a cheap ass.
4) There is no such thing as copyright (or shouldn't be). Other people should create art, music, games, films, and entertainment for me as a favor and fund it out of their own pocket.
5) Piracy is a fact in the gaming world. Get used to it. It's the developer's own fault because they should have taken it into account in their business model (besides, they should have been working on this full time as an open source program for free anyway).
6) You charge too much. And if it is only $10, or $5, or even $1, then pirating it shouldn't be that much of a burden to the developer.
7) I do not want to try the demo because the only meaningful way to try out a game is to try out the ENTIRE game.
8) Who cares if there is 99.9% piracy, all the developers need is to make just enough money to fund developing another game. They don't need to get rich (after all, I'm not).
9) "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
10) Because I have never had to create, develop and market a game and I don't have a clue as to what it takes to run a business.
11) It is just normal human nature to take the product of others' labor without compensating them.
12) Pirating something NEVER results in a lost sale. Not even when spread over thousands of people.
13) Because copyright law that protects GPL software is no more to be observed than copyright that protects content.
14) Personal honor is such an outmoded concept anyway.
No kidding.
My first thought when I RTFA was "no shit, sherlock".
What you said became pretty much my second thought. Heights of Hubris and Hypocrisy in one message, I think.
-SS "Teach the ignorant, care for the dumb, and punish the stupid."
Newell said that the "service problems" are the primary problem. He's right.
I will not buy region locked disks precisely because my family lives and works between 3 regions. Region locking is an absolute ripoff, at least for us.
Anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer
Is anything less ever acceptable in this day and age?
Most DRM solutions diminish the value of the product by either directly restricting a customers use or by creating uncertainty."
He's being polite. DRM is mostly a form of defective products and sales fraud.
Price *is* an issue, it needs to be reasonable. But I won't even think about that until *all of the above is out of the way* or your "product" simply doesn't exist to me.
And what about all the other parts of the bible - like keeping slaves?
Steam as the only authentification method).
What is his point? That he is a supporter of piracy by making sure the main reasons for it are found on Steam as well?
I don't believe any of these things apply to Valve's own games, other than Steam itself, which is pretty tame as DRM goes. He's only responsible for his own games, not those he sells for others.
I live in Latin America and have the following options for movies/music/games:
1. Get it on DVD from a pirate (approx cost $1) [ILLEGAL]
2. Rent a pirate copy (approx cost $2) [still technically ILLEGAL]
3. Buy it on iTunes (cost $1-$4).. but I can only do this because I've figure out how to get around regional limitations [psuedo-LEGAL]
4. Buying on Netflix/Amazon is not an option [N/A]
5. Going to threater (movies only).. sometimes, when/if it arrives at a timely basis (cost: $4-$5) [LEGAL]
6. Buy the legal DVD (cost: $30-$100) [LEGAL]
As you can see a great option is iTunes/Netflix/Amazon but the industry has systematically cut off those options from us. Also the legal DVDs are sold at much higher prices than in the US.
So do you wonder why there is so much piracy around the world??
There's no viable affordable legal option.
Yeah, it certainly helps me run those games I bought a few years back, especially the DRM that's not Windows 7 compatible.
So let's say The Industry sets up a system where you can legally get, for a fee
Personally, I'd make use of such a service immediately.
However, an entrepreneuring Pirate will just duplicate the above (in no small part helped by it - why cam/rip/whatever if anybody can download, legally, and supply?) and offer an additional service: Free.
Yup. Sounds like a service problem to me.
DRM stops "casual" pirates (pre-crack) and it increases the R&D cost for serious pirates. Take the PS3 for example: it was not cracked until the removal of Other OS. Increasing the cost of legitimate hacking and made the USB solution more attractive to research. I do not say this in support of DRM, but any counter-argument must be honest in order to succeed. DRM works for certain definitions of "works", and that angle must be addressed head-on rather than brushed aside.
Or you could say the PS3 wasn't cracked until the platform picked up steam. Why bother to crack a platform that nobody cares about?
Although I must say Slashdot is utterly predictable as far as general opinion to DRM, how is it a "troll post" just because you don't agree with me?
You need to correct that. Pirates didn't *bother* to crack the PS3 UNTIL OtherOs was removed. It was then cracked rather easily then after. Every implementation of DRM thusfar has been an abysmal failure. They have all been easily and rapidly broken. DRM is broken from the get go. It does not work. It does not prevent the casual pirate nor the hardcore pirate. Casual pirates wait for the hardcore pirates to crack it then download it from them. It serves no purpose whatsoever as it does not prevent piracy at all. It hardly even slows it down. All it does succeed in doing is infuriating legitimate users and prevent them from buying from your company in the future.
Does that logic hold true for home security? Should I do away with locks and alarm systems because all it does is "encourage" people to circumvent these safe guards? DRM serves a similar purpose to locks/alarm systems. It would prevent, or at least discourage, people who don't have the technical savvy to get around it from pirating (most people I know who pirate software are just kids/young adults who don't want to pay for anything).
this is funny because a lot of people pirate steam games because they don't like being treated like thieves first.
a pirated version of a steam game can be played at any time. not when you have a internet connection and for a lot longer then what their off-line mode allows.
a pirated steam game is not forced to update which in turn breaks mods like what happened in skryim.
a pirated steam game will be playable longer to as you will not loose the game when the steam servers disable said game.
One of the main reasons I'll download a cracked game is to try it out. Nobody releases demos anymore, and you can't trust reviews with all the goddamned shills out there. I did it for SC2, because I didn't know if it would be my thing. Well, sure enough I liked it, and bought it online the next day.
Case in point: Need For Speed - The Run. I knew it was coming from EA Black Box, responsible for all the "wigger" installments of the NFS franchise. Installed, played for about 10 minutes, deleted. Had I paid $70 for it, I would have put it in a box, shit on it, and Fedexed it to Trip Hawkins' home address with the note "Fixed it for you".
So, yes, Gabe is right, 'service" aka availability is a primary issue, and while price itself is not the most important factor, VALUE is. A staggering majority of major-brand games today lack value. They cost more than they're worth. In that sense, NFS The Run held very little value for me, because it's a shit game produced by a cut-rate studio and certainly does not belong in the same price bracket as, say, Skyrim, Arkham City or even F1 2011.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
Corporate suicide is not in the best interest of the shareholders. And if you read the article, (Asking a lot I know) you will find Gabe saying that actually serving your customers IS in the best interest of the shareholders.
No one prospers unless he renders benefit to others.
-- Tadao Yoshida, founder YKK zippers
I would LOVE to buy Rocksmith.
However, it is not only not for sale in europe - the american version does not run on european XBOXes, unlike most of the XBOX games available.
Conclusion: I will buy it in the us, much cheaper, for sure, than they will sell when (or if) they release it in Europe, and then use a pirated version downloaded from somewhere in order to actually play it on my own console.
Would be much easier it they stopped bitching and just sold the damn thing - either here, or unlocked.
Almost. It's nice to buy games on steam, but unless there is a sale you pay a premium for games. Take MW3 for example, it costs 59,99€ on Steam and I just ordered it for 43€ with shipping included from a brick and mortar store and that is ass backwards. One would assume that digital distribution would have the potential to be so much cheaper than a physical product, but in Gabe's magical lala land prices are higher and they hardly ever drop at all. While I'm already mentioning MW3, lets look at Black Ops, it still costs 59.99€ on Steam but at the same B&M store I can buy it for 27€ with shipping. There are few real perks for buying the games on Steam, unless you have lots of money to burn and you really want a 'genuine' TF2 item.
What he says is spot on, but I think pricing is still a problem. $60-80 for a game is simply too much. I won't pay that, and certainly not when I have to put up with onerous DRM, micro payments to make the game worthwhile or allow me to be competitive online, and in game advertisements. You can't have it all; I'm looking at you, EA.
So that's why I take what I want for free. It's too expensive, and there's enough of a disconnect between the legal definition of theft and copyright infringement that I feel it's an ethical choice to make to say I'm not going to support the current copyright model, I'm going to undermine it by making it less profitable.
Eventually when things change maybe I'll start participating in the market again, but copyright, patents, "IP" was meant to be a two way street. Lobbyists and interest groups have thrown up road blocks on the side of the street that flows back to the public good. So I feel no responsibility to hold up my end.
If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
Let me translate that:
Locks on homes prevent people you don't want from coming in
DRM prevents people from accessing the content
Only problem is... the content providers WANT people accessing the content. Locks on homes are like having a firewall, patched software and some sort of AV software on your computer... the house would work just well without the security add-ons, and so would your computer. The add-ons make it more secure.
With DRM, the entire idea is to prevent access.
Now, a real counter argument is that if people are grabbing pirated copies of the content, there is nothing to prove that the content is still secure and hasn't been monkeyed with by the pirates, to, say, add botnet software, a keylogger, or something else nefarious.
Then again, some of the DRM software includes keylogger and/or botnet-like hooks that the Bad Guys can leverage, so it's probably a wash.
If your home security system only worked when you didn't have a cold, and only worked for some members of your household, or otherwise prevented people with the right to access the home from doing so in an accustomed manner, you'd find that security feature hobbled in some manner pretty quickly. Then you get the appearance of security without the benefit... just like with DRM.
Most DRM solutions diminish the value of the product by either directly restricting a customers use or by creating uncertainty."
Of course charging for something diminishes it's value. Just look at open source.
s/don't want/can't afford/
Neither, it's an inspiration...
http://images.wildammo.com/2010/08/05/why-gabe-newell-invented-steam/
Don't quite follow. If I have a key/alarm code I can access my house. If I have a valid copy of a piece of software, I can access the software. Seems simple to me.
DRM does not stop casual or any type of pirates, from everything the general public has been told/seen from cracking groups Ubisoft with their draconian DRM was just as fast and easy to crack as every other game ever released.
And the PS3 has nothing to do with it, that is all hardware restrictions.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
From my personal experience, I'd say piracy is a pricing AND a service problem. During my student years, I pirated almost every game except a select few I absolutely wanted to have. 50€ was alot of money for me, and downloading something from the internet was more comfortable than getting a copy from a store and sticking the CD in every time I wanted to play. I didn't have Steam back then.
Now I'm using Steam and have a job. I've probably spent around 200-300€ on games this year, taking up many of the special discount offers on Steam, even buying games "legit" that I have pirated CDs lying around. Steam makes it easy, and now that I have the money, I don't think twice about spending 20€ on a game every month or so. From this experience I'd say that piracy has nothing todo with greed, bad intent or trickery. It's just plain lazyness and circumstance. And DRM is a waste of time that only makes things worse for paying customers.
Yeah, there's some serious fucked-up valuation going on here.
It is extremely strange that people who will happily pay $30 on going to a movie, $60 on eating out, potentially hundreds or thousands of dollars on a vacation - things that by their very nature you can only possess for a very limited period of time - will then complain that $30 is "too expensive" for a game that provides many hours of fun, simply because in theory they might no longer be able to play it if in many years' time a DRM server is hypothetically switched off without a no-DRM patch being released.
I mean, seriously? Even if Steam's servers were turned off tomorrow, the games I've played on Steam would still represent some of the best value for money of any of the entertainment/leisure purchases I've made in the last few years.
Seriously, try applying your logic to a restaurant some time. Go in there and announce that because you bought a full-price meal there five years ago, they owe you more food whenever you demand it. When they try to explain that it doesn't work that way, accuse them of being immoral and denying you rights that you self-evidently possess.
Enjoy explaining your actions to the cops when they arrive. Then grow up and stop acting so fucking entitled.
Also, I am using far too many emphasis tags. Sorry about that. Your dumbness is rubbing off on me.
But Jesus was the first pirate. He "copied" bread and fish for tons of people who wanted it. Doesn't that mean that good Christians should advocate sharing and copying, or as you refer to it, "piracy?"
Well, as said above, you need some sort of protection against "uncle bob copying his original disk to all his friends", but trying to fight off anyone else is a waste of time and resources, and generally ends up on a solution that makes your end product worse than the pirate version.
By not releasing, talking about, or possibly even developing the next chapter in the Half-Life series they have assured, 100%, that there are no pirated copies in the wild. Look on any P2P service or torrent site and you won't find it! They have completely beaten the pirates with their new strategy, DC has also seemed to take this strategy with good Superman games...
By your admission that there exist "cracking groups" my statement is justified. The average person lacks the expertise to break most DRM schemes and therefore relies upon experts, even if the task is dead simple for said experts. Really, stop trying to pretend that it isn't an arms race. Solid arguments against DRM focus on the fact that it's wrong, not that it's ineffective.
punishes honest consumers and doesn't effect real pirates at all
once you realize the truth of that, you stop trying to fight piracy and start thinking of revenue flows in ways that have nothing to do with piracy and controlling digital media access
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I know that. Prior to the removal of OtherOS, the cost to crack the PS3 was higher than the cost to use a supported platform feature. After its removal, cracking became an attractive target (and as you point out, it didn't take long).
What? no.
The average person cannot crack anything, pre, post, or current DRM. You do not even need copy protection to stop the average person.
I guaranty you, the average person that they companies are worried about would not even be able to get around anything ever created to slow or stop pirating.
DRM is not about copy protection, DRM is about restricting the use of a product to paying customers. It is not some fundamental improved technique of copy protection as it is fundamentally the same to crack. and as it has since the dawn of the computer takes interested and technically skilful individual/group to get around.
Not that any programmer cannot learn the ropes in a matter of hours.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
Into which of your proposed 14 bins does "The publisher has declined to make the video game available for sale at all in my home country" fall?
Also the legal DVDs are sold at much higher prices than in the US.
That might not be the fault of the studios as much as of national governments. Brazil and several other Latin American countries have prohibitive import duties for home entertainment products. Vote in a government that gets its revenue from things other than imports.
Precisely why I have a computer for each purpose. I mean, this goes both ways - music software and audio drivers can be a nightmare with regards to DRM and instability.
If my recording PC gets fubar'd, I can just format, reinstall, and use my network backups... same with the gaming PC. It's sad, but that's the way it has to be until virtualization is fast enough to run these things. Workstation PC is Linux, which just doesn't get screwed up on the same level as Windows does.
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
You mean like how they forced EA to release BF3 to steam without their DRM that bordered on spyware? Oh, right, they never did get BF3, because the publishers are more powerful than you apparently give them credit for.
Heck for the last few years there's been heaps of memory patcher's for steam, at least one of them working with the current version. Copy the game content from someone and you can play it (no multiplayer servers obviously).
09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
well you either choose to buy the game for a relatively high price
or have it for free but with some malware sauce
pick your poison
i pick indie
As long as the business side of content creation continues to load their side of the social bargain, neither side can claim the moral high ground. Piracy is not right, but neither is life of the author+70 years, RETROACTIVELY to save a mouse from entering the public domain. I would also like to remind you that copyright infringement is not stealing from most logical perspectives. Its a COMPLETELY distinct and separate crime from stealing from pretty much any legal standpoint.
Good-bye
I know we're not a huge segment of the buying public, but I have several friends who are like me:
- We like to play computer games on our Windows PCs.
- We're willing and ready to buy such games, and have done so many times in the past.
- We only like to play in single-player mode, offline, sometimes with our kids, or with friends sitting there in the room with each other, instead of online.
- We use Linux machines for accessing the Internet, and would never connect a Windows machine to the Internet. (We think you'd have to be crazy to do that. We especially would never connect one of our kids' Windows computers to the Internet).
- We will never, ever, ever use Steam. Hear me again, Gabe: We will never, ever, ever use Steam.
As such, I have never purchased Half Life 2. The very concept of Steam incenses me so much, what Valve has done with gaming requiring an Internet connection is so disgusting, I have never even bothered to pirate it.
Please, don't lay that crap on me about how "But you only have to connect one time, and then you can play offline for as long as you want." We're never going to connect our Windows PCs to the Internet. Don't you get it?
What this adds up to is a lost sale, but a lingering potential sale. Half Life 2 has been out since 2004, almost 8 years now. I loved Half Life 1, play it all the time (including with my kids), and would really like to play Half Life 2. But I never will, unless I pirate it.
Or, unless Gabe takes his head out of his ass and makes it Steamless. Just how much profit does greedy Valve want to wring out of the game (or does it actually wring out, at this late date?) by keeping it Steam-ified? After a certain amount of time, doesn't it make sense to assume you've made most of the DRM'd (Steamed) sales you're going to make, so maybe you can try to send the game Steamless after 8 fricking years and see if you can flush guys like me out for a few more bucks? If Half Life 2 was Steamless, I'd buy it immediately. That goes for a lot of Valve's games.
So, yeah, Gabe, you're STILL not providing better value like you think you are. There is still an often out-shouted minority out here, but nevertheless who still make up reasonably sized numbers of potential customers, who said then, say now, and will always say, "Steam sucks and we will NEVER, EVER use Steam."
Absolutely agree.
There is one more aspect he forgets to mention:
Dear publishers, if you put out all this DRM and copy-protection and basically treat me like a criminal, then who am I to argue with you? I'll use The Pirate Bay, because apparently that's what you expect me to do.
If you treat me like a valued customer, then I will be one. There's a shelf full of boxes right next to me proving that I'm quite willing to spend money on games. But I don't enter into business relationships with people who disrespect me. I'd rather respond by disrespecting them as well.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Sigh
I'm curious what DRM are you talking about? SecuROM just does a simple CD check to make sure the CD is legit. Ofcource it also tries to secure itself and prevent other programs from poking around its code by installing some kernel mode components. AFAIK it does not install any audio components. I've seen DPC latency being affected more by buggy audio/video/wifi drivers than anything else. Just because a DRM solution installs a driver doesn't mean its going to bump up the latency of ALL your audio programs.
DRM makes things fragile. Nobody wants to buy things that break easily.
DRM does not stop casual or any type of pirates
If somebody attempts to bypass DRM they are no longer a "casual" pirate. A casual pirate is somebody who takes their friend's install disc home for a night, installs the game and starts playing. They may not even realize this is illegal. That's a casual pirate. The moment you start looking for a cracked copy or downloading a keygen or what not, you're not being "casual" anymore, you're determined to do something illegal and by God you're gunna do it.
This guy has identified exactly the issue, which seems to elude almost every software company, and music and video publishers too (and an astonishing amount of executives in other fields too): it is all about putting the customer first. When companies put DRM on their product, and other impediments to product satisfaction, they are putting their customer last. The problem is fundamentally one of mistaken priorities at an executive level: sometimes that manifests itself as DRM, sometimes it manifests itself as not putting a superior product out for fear of "cannibalizing" an existing product, sometimes it shows itself in hidden fees and misleading terms. These are all symptoms of the same mistaken priorities.
To implementors, DRM is about raising the rate of payment-per-user which is essentially copy protection. Onerous restrictions on paying customers are collateral damage. Sadly.
What proof do you have that game developers who want to add DRM also want 70+ years of IP protection? I'm a game developer who doesn't want people to pirate my stuff but don't give a fuck about the 70+ years crap - which BTW is irrelevant here because that only applies to music/movies/books and such 'literary' stuff and not games specifically. http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html
If you make a digital copy of the exact order of 0s and 1s on your computer, you are enjoying the fruits of someone elses labor while denying them just compensation. Stealing is denying someone just compensation. It doesn't have to by physical goods.
You might say why are they entitled to just compensation? Because society has decided to allow artists to choose how they get compensated. Artists choose to create works before they get paid to do so. Or they might get commissioned to create and paid before. Its THEIR choice.
You are free to not support these Artists because you disagree with their business model by supporting other alternatives.
http://www.jamendo.com/en/
http://www.spotify.com/
https://mog.com/
etc, etc
The part you are missing is the part where Ubisoft's DRM servers go down and you CAN'T access the software you paid for. You did not buy a license to use the software whenever you want, you bought a license to use the software whenever they let you. Hence the analogy to an alarm system that locks out both unauthorized and authorized users.
Posted this before but will post again since this story fits more....
Lost Internet and cable TV for 3 days due to recent snow storm. Next street over lost power so I think Charter's Telecom equipment was on that street. My street still had power. Wanted to play single player game on Steam but couldn't since no Internet. Steam asked if I wanted to play off-line. Click yes and then got an error. Tried the off-line mode feature, still doesn't work.
Read online later than other people have encountered similar problems. I know the Valve game I played can be cracked to play without Steam. But I bought it and all my other Steam games and don't want to go this route. I, a legit customer, gets screwed while pirates are able to enjoy their games.
I wrote tech support about it but received a form letter saying they get too much email and may not respond to all inquiries. It's been a month. Screw you Valve!
Locks let the legitimate residents in and out, and keep out the intruders.
DRM locks legitimate users out, and does nothing to stop teh ebil piratees.
So yeah, if your home security company works like DRM, then you'd be doing everyone a favor by doing away with them.
Downmodding is a perfectly acceptable response to shilling and astroturfing. And since your post could have been lifted verbatim from any one of a dozen PR dribble pieces from Kotick, Guillaume de Fondaumiere, or any of those other crybabies, it's not an unreasonable conclusion to draw.
"we have but 5 cds and 2 dvds, unless we go to best buy."
taking the 5 cds and 2 dvds, and looking up to bittorrent, He ripped them and shared them and kept downloading to set before his disciples.
and they did watch and listen, and were satisfied, and the unwatched files filled twelve hard drives.
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
Stealing is denying someone just compensation.
I'd say stealing is taking something that someone already owns away from that. Afterwards, they will no longer have it at all. Or, at least, that's what I think the average person thinks when they hear/read the word.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Piracy is not right
What is "right"? What is "wrong"? Seems subjective to me.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Region blocking or other barriers to access are the equivalent of infinite price. I can't tell whether Mr. Newell is mincing words or just doesn't get this. Barriers to access tend to incentivize the very behavior they are supposed to stop, namely black markets, and are therefore often counterproductive. This is true for games, for books, for drugs (legal and otherwise). See Adrian Johns' "Piracy" (http://www.amazon.com/Piracy-Intellectual-Property-Gutenberg-Gates/dp/0226401197/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322280844&sr=8-1).
You're an absolutely ridiculous human being. :o)
I'm sure there are still a lot of people who just don't give a damn to pay money for things they can get for free with little risk of getting into trouble, but I know for sure that I and a few people at work get sick of having to wait or pay more because we live in Japan. Skyrim still hasn't been released over here, but we all downloaded a torrent at release and have clocked 10s of hours with the game, trouble free. We've all actually purchased the game (2 of us on Steam and 1 is buying a boxed copy via Play-Asia), but the fact we have to wait 1 month before we can officially play the game whilst our friends on Steam are already playing really sucks. As far as I know, the game was released on 11.11.11 everywhere in the world aside from Japan.
Anyway, it's not just Japan that gets shafted, obviously everywhere gets screwed from time to time by region locking and other forms of DRM, and I know a lot of people who put more trust in illegal torrents than they do in legal versions released via Steam and other online services because nobody really knows how long the games they buy on these services will work for. If a publisher goes bust or simply removes support for a game that isn't selling, will we still be able to play the games we bought? Personally I trust Valve with their own games, but I think they allow too much DRM bullshit on Steam. They really should have a no tolerance policy with regard to requiring additional services (Games for Windows Live DRM built into a title released on Steam for example) and make sure that publishers stop using intrusive DRM that not only annoys users, but also makes Steam look bad.
I did write to Gabe some time ago about GFWL DRM in Steam titles but never got a reply. If he had time to read it I hope he took some of what I said on board. I'm sure there must be a lot of people sending complaints about DRM to Gabe and Steam support every day, so we can only hope that one day they will do something about it.
I pirate some stuff still. But have been trying to go legit with what little money I have. I can't afford TV Service. So I would gladly watch stuff TV Shows online with some Ads. But the company's region lock me out because I live in Canada. So I have no other way to watch weekly shows and end up pirating them. I do pay for Netflix Canada and enjoy it. The content they have is a bit limited and they make it very difficult to actually pay them. Which is frustrating. I don't really listen to music anymore. So I don't buy or pirate those. As for Games. I still pirate some games. Mainly because as I stated before I have very little money to spend. But thanks to Steam and the Sales they have I can afford to actually buy Games. I own 125 Games on Steam. Steam is not perfect, but its a good step in the right direction. I dislike how other online game distributors will still charge near full price for a game that is 3-4 years old or more. Lower the price already. I do feel some of the claims of losses due to piracy is a bit over blown. If a person never had the money to spend. How can it count as loss. So as an average person I feel changes need to be made. Learn that DRM does not work and only hurts paying customers. Price is an issue for a lot of people. So choose reasonable prices and lower them over time. You don't have to use the same price just because everyone else does. Make content available for everyone at the same time. Make it easy to view and/or use. If you limit how I want to use it I will go elsewhere. Again, I WANT TO GO 100% LEGIT. STOP MAKING IT SO DIFFICULT FOR ME TO DO SO.
No. That was GNU/Jesus and those were GPL'd loaves and fishes.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
DRM is like a lock, that much is true. However, DRM is NOT like the locks on your car or your home.
When you buy a car or a home, ownership of the locks and keys transfers to you. Afterwards, although it possible for you to lock yourself out of your house or car, the locks are normally under your control, and they exist solely for your benefit. With DRM, the locks remain after the sale to control YOU, at your inconvenience, for someone ELSE's benefit.
One computer equivalent to locks on your home would be setting up login accounts and file permissions on your computer, so that your kids (and kids that they invite over) can run games, but cannot access your electronic checking account, stock holding, etc. records., or go randomly installing and deleting programs with Administrator level access.
Uh. Pirates have been working on breaking the ps3 open. The first tool shipped with the jb dongle was an hdloader with no provided tool chain.
The fact that the damn thing was 5 bucks in parts that was sold for much more than that should be evidence enough that this whole notion that hackers break consoles first for the good of the gaming community is silly at best, stupid at worst. Every console got broken for piracy first then homebrew.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Yo Gabe, you dare come up with this bullshit in the same week in which your code monkeys forced a stealth patch onto skyrim's TESV.exe, disabling the large address aware patch? Seriously? I know it is fixed by now - not by your retard outfit, but by the community, but seriously? Give me one reason why I ever again should buy from your huckster business, just one. I used to like steam, but this week you made it abundantly clear that you are nothing but a shitstain.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
An LLC is absolutely NOT an S-Corp... unless you want it to be (and specifically notify the IRS that you want it to be). There are a LOT of restrictions on S-Corps (no foreign owners, only one class of stock, no more than 75 shareholders, etc) so it's highly unlikely that a corporation the size of Valve is an S-Corp..
The vast majority of LLCs are treated as either sole proprietorships or partnerships for tax purposes.
The important part is that the type of company you incorporate as at the state level doesn't one-to-one map to a kind of taxable entity. Incorporation is a creature of state law, and federal taxes are a creature of federal law.
paintball
Rather than steam, consider this might be age, and wisdom. A few years ago before even steam came up I stopped pirating because it was not worth the hassle. Ah , who am I kidding, in my case it was probably only age.
Honest question. What is region locking supposed to accomplish anyway? Wouldn't it simplify the distribution process by making a universal version? Not to mention make them them more money (due potentially to less piracy, and better viral effects).
Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
being on dialup, i cant even connect to steam, much less play any game that uses it. i was an idiot and paid for fallout NV and that new duke nukem. after months of trying to get connected to steam and update, i gave up, and had a friend download the torrents for me. the only thing that worked was the pirated versions of the game. wish them hackers did a better job, valve still operates.....
C'mon, it's not rocket science! Even if people didn't care about the price, even if people didn't care about not having to stay online constantly of insert a CD, it's obvious to choose the cracked over the DRMified product.
What matters to the purchaser of goods or services is its usefulness. If you're offered a TV with and without the ability to connect your media server to it directly, and offered at the same price, which one would you choose? Hell, even if you don't own a media server and don't plan to have one, you'd take the one with the server connection ability, given that all other parameters are the same. Why? Because it's additional value, useful to you or not, but why forgo value if you get it at no additional cost and no drawback?
Now imagine that ability doesn't cost more but less. Yes, you can either buy a TV without a feature you don't use, or get a cheaper TV that's basically identical but has a feature you don't use. Take a wild guess which one most people would choose. Yes, even if they don't benefit from the feature.
Ok, a better example, since the crackers don't "add" value, they remove the reduction of value. Imagine you could get a DVD player with or without region lock. Which one do you choose, if the non-locked one is cheaper?
Oh, legality? Ok, imagine said DVD player in the example above is from some shady, maybe-not-so-quite-certainly-legal import. Think people care about it? They get what they want, that's all that matters to people.
Price is not the issue. It's convenience. Yes, convenience is a value in a product. If they have to jump through hoops to get it to work, people don't really like the product. They want a product that works. If there has ever been a good example, it's the success of Windows compared to the free alternative Linux. Most people chose Windows over Linux in the past, simply for convenience reasons. It was a hassle for the average Joe to get Linux to work, and hence they preferred a product they have to pay for.
Still want to tell me the main reason for copying and cracking is money?
Actually, the main argument against cracking was convenience. Not anymore. The more recent variants of DRM nixed that argument in the eyes of most customers. Until recently, buying content instead of copying and cracking it was the convenient way to get a game. Not anymore. By now, you usually get more hassle from buying than from copying. The game industry killed off its main selling point, all by itself. Today, with invasive DRM that fucks up your computer, that kills your game if you dare to go offline during play (deliberately, because your ISP craps out or because their overloaded authentication server does), that essentially causes you unnecessary trouble, they created the best and strongest incentive to turn to copying themselves!
It took Gabe to tell you that? Really? I dunno, but I'd say that's quite obvious to anyone who ever bought and/or copied a game. Of course, this does not apply to game studios who see their customers as their main enemies rather than their partners, but that's their problem.
I wish for their slow, painful death. And, I guess I'll be granted my wish if they don't catch on soon.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
That a $60.00 game is so highly overpriced that it encourages Piracy.
Noo, Almost everyone on this planet has so much money that that price point is nothing to them.
In reality, even middle class people cant afford to feed a gaming habit at $60.00 a game. MOST people wait until it get's bargain binned at 1/2 that price. The technological savvy simply find a cracked version.
Everything else he talks about is ALSO very viable reasoning to piracy, but saying that price has nothing to do with it is absurd.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Which will not work with any of my other games?
I was under the impression that it was needless to say, but apparently it wasn't: You'd keep the console for your region and buy an additional U.S. console.
Then I just get the pc version.
Provided they even make one. There are entire genres of games where a PC version is traditionally almost unheard of.
It's a pricing and service problem, and I personally have pirated games and apps for both reasons. The core issue is that you don't sell consumers access to your software - you sell them legality. You can't sell them access because you can't deny them access. The value of the software to the consumer is therefore the value of legitimacy, not the value of the software itself.
Uh oh, He gave away the secret. So now game companies can charge twice as much, make them available instantly in all regions, and make them available via download, and then piracy will go away. In a pig's eye.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Hate replying to an AC on such a subject, but then really want to get this off me:
I'm a game developer who doesn't want people to pirate my stuff but don't give a fuck about the 70+ years crap
Then will commit to releasing the game to the public domain after (for example) 10 years? A statement to that effect within the "EULA" of your game would have legal effect unless you've drafted it horribly.
which BTW is irrelevant here because that only applies to music/movies/books and such 'literary' stuff and not games specifically. http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html
If I'm not mistaken, computer programs are considered "literary" works. How else are the game companies claiming copyright over the game code?
Stealing is denying someone just compensation.
As others have mentioned, "stealing" is taking away things owned by others. If I own an expensive car because my rich friend gave it to me as a gift, it's not my "just compensation", but you'd still be stealing if you took it away. "compensation" has nothing to do with the concept of stealing.
Don't quote me on this.
Not sure how it is that they simply throw that out. Though I do not pirate games, one of the things that chaps my hide is that a game cost $50-$60 upon release via S.T.E.A.M. or any other digital-only avenue still. Why is it that a digital-only version costs as much as brick-n-mortar version? There is no shipping, packaging, burning, printing, etc. involved yet the pricing is the same. Add to that, a majority of the games are soon in the bargain basement lot on the digital download sites within a few weeks. I refuse to buy a game immediately upon release any long due to this and the initial pricing garbage now. These companies continue to believe that their bottom line must be met through breaking our wallets even though studies to the contrary have shown this to be completely unnecessary. Better pricing along with a better supply channel is how to win the hearts of almost all players. To be sure, some people that pirate will never purchase a legitimate release but then again, they were never the true market anyway. Their road is set in stone, as they say.
Indeed. Because nobody has ever pirated anything if: it doesn't have DRM and is available for sale on the internet. That stuff never gets pirated. Seriously, when are we going to admit that either: Gabe doesn't actually know what he's talking about, or that Gabe is merely doing an elaborate song and dance to say whatever will make him most adored by the public?
> "As long as the business side of content creation continues to load their side of the social bargain, neither side can claim the moral high ground."
Do you realize how many game companies either release their games for free after ten or fifteen years, or they sell them on GOG for $5? Sorry, you have no argument against the games industry - especially when they're not the ones making or lobbying for those laws.
This is why I ditched PC gaming for consoles.
Maybe a better analogy would be this. There's a Best Buy, and two doors down an open-air market.
Best buy has the problem that some sketchy sellers from the open-air market shoplift stuff, walk down the street, and sell it to people at a huge discount.
So what they do is attach a big ugly thing to every piece of electronic equipment that uses the 3G network to make sure you've paid for this device. If cell phone coverage goes out, the whole device stops working.
The sketchy sellers from the open-air market do just as much shoplifting; they just remove the big ugly kludge. But now, more people buy from the shoplifters, because what they get is not only cheaper, but better too.
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
Half-life game series was being sold in Russia for 1/10th of the US price. But it came region-locked, if you had an IP address which did not look Russian to Steam - you couldn't play your purchased game. I believe this lock is still in place.
I think Germany is affected too, due to its censorship laws (no human violence in games). I heard they have special editions of Left4Dead and others, and you cannot play other versions.
The difference is simple - your lock on the house allows you to keep everybody (except you and people who you want to let in or trust enough to give them a copy of the key) out.
DRM is different. It is, if you tried to get some technological solution (that does not need guards) to allow me in, but not allow me to also let my friend in at the same time and make this scalable to thousands of people and hundreds of places.
DRM is designed to prevent people, who paid for the content (and should be allowed access to it), from accessing the content in the wrong way (copying it). For audio, it cannot work, for video, it can work in theory, as long as the bitrate is too high for any recording device, for software it can work, but requires the software to run on a server (always online) and this is something people do not always like.
"Pretty tame as DRM goes" is a very odd sort of apology for it. Frankly, DRM is DRM. I dont mind pay $60 for a good game, but if it comes with DRM you couldnt pay me to install it.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Bread is open source, and God owns the copyright on fish. Try again!
Yep... I live in Norway and for some dumb ass reason, I am forced by Disney to buy a DVD of the Lego of the Pirates of the Caribbean as opposed to downloading from Steam or elsewhere. Sure this is no big deal... well except that the computer connected to my living room TV is a new Mac Mini without a DVD drive.
... preferably on Steam where I have Lego Harry Potter, Lego Universe, Lego Star Wars, Lego Star Wars III, Lego Indiana Jones and probably another I'm forgetting... but I haven't purchased the Lego Pirates of the Caribbean yet since I can't use the DVD version.
So.... I just downloaded a pirated copy of the game instead and we play that. I'm waiting for an electronic release of it
Up yours Disney... feel free to knock on my door now that you know who I am...
In face publisher compete against pirates about who will offer the better product. People balance the cost and benefit of both and take the best one.
For example.
Pirates :
+ free
+ easy to get
- illegal
- possible broken cracks and malware
Publisher :
- need to pay (even if it is just $0.01, taking out you credit card is not something trivial)
- DRM
- annoyances (like FBI warnings)
+ additional content (online servers for games, bonus for DVD)
+ physical object
+ timely updates
+ sympathy for developers
People will attach a value to every item (a mostly unconscious process). If the total advantage offered by publisher matches the price they ask, people will buy the product.
Because you can't sell your unopened and unused licenses because the EULA says so, in contravention of statutory rights.
Also see BnetD case. Reverse engineering is allowed by law. Denied by courts because the EULA says so.
Because at the moment, the workers are losing their jobs because it's a global competitive market. But when we buy stuff, it's all locked down regions.