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In New Zealand, a System To Watch for Disabled Parking Violators
cylonlover writes "What does it mean when a parking spot is marked with a wheelchair symbol? If you answered, 'It means I can park there as long as I'm going to be quick,' you're wrong — yet you're also far from alone. Every day in parking lots all over the world, non-disabled drivers regularly use spaces clearly reserved for the handicapped. They often get away with it, too, unless an attendant happens to check while their vehicle is parked there. Thanks to technology recently developed by New Zealand's Car Parking Technologies (CPT), however, those attendants could soon be notified the instant that a handicapped spot is improperly occupied."
Penn & Teller did a Bullshit! episode on handicapped parking that's pretty interesting. As with all Bullshit! episodes, it's full of profanity, if that offends you.
One of the interesting points of the episode, and something I've noticed as will others, is that handicapped parking spots are almost always empty. Empty parking spots all over the world that most people aren't allowed to use, which of course clutters up the rest of the parking lot. Just something to think about.
Good thing Steve Jobs (infamous handicap parking spot taker) is gone before this could come to the states.
I hope you remember this next time you want to call the police. If you can't fend off armed robbers yourself then you deserve to die. Survival of the fittest.
now with there was 1 common tag that was easy to get in all citys and was easy to use in rented cars then that's ok but to say some from a city with out a electronic tag is parking improperly is not a good idea. Why should some have to go out of there way just to visit a different city?
Except, in some cases, people need the wide space offered by the disabled parking spot for things like crutches or wheelchairs or whatever. Sure you might be able to get a person out into a wheelchair in a normal (tight) spot, but thats clearly without risks and would obviously be really difficult.
So, disabled spaces aren't always about walking distance, but about space around the vehicle.
It's the same thing with "Parents with Prams" parking spots - unless you want to discriminate against them as well?
Yup. I said it. Mod me down because it violates your PC ethics.
But seriously, survival of the fittest. Those who cannot walk 50 feet should not be coddled. Half the time it is some overweight heifer who won't take care of herself. The other half it is just someone who survived to 70. But the bottom line is that I am a Darwinist and don't see why we make life easier for those who can't take care of themselves.
Either be in shape or be part of a family network that will take care of you. If you can't do either, then don't go shopping. Simple as that. Survival of the fittest got us where we are today. Quit fucking with evolution.
On the one hand I admire your willingness to admit an opinion (or I would if you put your name to it) that I suspect a lot of able bodied people keep to themselves, but I bet you'd feel different if you or someone you cared about suddenly developed some disease that greatly reduced your mobility.
And even if Darwin was wanting to help evolution along, even he would be smart enough to know that letting a few arthritic 70 year olds die isn't going to make even the tiniest bit of difference to the process. If you want to help evolution along, maybe you should campaign for preventing people with inheritable diseases from passing those diseases on to their kids (either by genetic pre-testing or just stopping them having kids). The truth is that most disabled people aren't disabled because of some genetic trait, but because of some other unfortunate incident along the way.
So maybe keep your unfortunate prejudices to yourself or at least stop pretending that you have evolution on your side.
I hope this works, then goes global.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
You're jumping to conclusions. No electronic tag = attendant notified = attendant checks it out, a fine isn't automatically issued.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
now with there was 1 common tag that was easy to get in all citys and was easy to use in rented cars then that's ok but to say some from a city with out a electronic tag is parking improperly is not a good idea. Why should some have to go out of there way just to visit a different city?
It's a means to identify someone who may be parked there illegally. If the traffic cop comes by and see's a legitimate non-electronic tag i doubt he/she is going to write a ticket.
It's only going to become a problem in phase 2 when sharp spikes leap out of the ground and puncture the tyres of cars without an electronic tag.
Not in the UK, anyway. An average-sized UK supermarket will have maybe 50 disabled spaces and 500-600 normal spaces. Despite many people parking in the disabled bays who are clearly not disabled, there are always disabled spaces available. Nobody ever gets busted in out-of-town locations.
So it seems that providing a large excess of disabled spaces is cheaper than enforcing the law. It's probably cheaper than this system, too.
I hate it when stricter enforcement of rules is implemented without an actual reasoning behind it.
There are so many rules in our society that only make sense because they are not really enforced. Like the penalty for walking over a red light. Or handicapped parking violations.
It makes absolutely no sense to reserve the best parking spot all day long when most of the time nobody will park there anyway. Having it empty 90% of the time is a total waste. The only reason it works decently well now is that people don't follow the rules all the time so it doesn't get wasted all day long.
The self-centered aholes that park in front of the store or bank because they're too lazy or inconsiderate to walk a little farther.
the code by which animals live in the serengeti has nothing really to do with how or why human beings choose to order their societies
but i'll be sure to kneecap you next time i see you walking down the street and just steal your stuff. i'm not interested in doing that, but since you are broadcasting to everyone that you believe this is the way society should be ordered: pure darwinism, then i'm just conforming to your wishes about how you think you should be treated
and i look froward to your reply, in which you engage in hollywood fantasies about how well armed and prepared you are 24/7 to survive in such a world and how perfect you will be in deflecting my attack. because you are omniscient and omnipotent, apparently. seems to me that's an intellectual failure to understand your essential weaknesses as an individual human being
so, maybe your professed darwinistic ideology really is evolution playing out: the less intelligent among us choosing a mode of "morality" that ensures your life (not my life, i'm not abiding by your beliefs) is brutish, mean, and short: darwinistic. thus ensuring you won't pass on your genes. and i, choosing the way of human morality, and respecting the physically weaker amongst us, who still contribute to society, and playing by the simple rules of decency and respect, amongst others playing by the same code of decency and respect, together, we will survive and define society, and reproduce this code
because in the contest of survival in this world, a well coordinated group of physically weak and average intelligence homo sapiens, but respectful of each other and coordinating with each other, outcompetes the lone superstrong supersmart who do not work well in groups. enjoy your extinction, inferior homo sapiens. genetics is over. memetics is the new game. play catch up or die off
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Don't know what the situation is like in New Zealand but I know Ontario's handicap permit system is rife with fraudulently obtained or counterfeit permits.
And yet another grain of sand to add to the mountain of discontent that anal observation causes the public...
Technology used the right way is a tool; when abused, it causes strife and should be considered a weapon.
And non-handicapped people will still park there and render them useless. What's your point?
Dilbert RSS feed
Revenue Raising.
I'd rather know the real impact - how many times a disabled person is inconvenienced by this. This may be as meaningful as "safety" (ha ha) cameras. What's worse, in Australia, the majority of revenue from speed cameras doesn't go to improving roads.
For the record, I have never parked in a handicapped space... however, I am sick of revenue raising thinly veiled as social conscience.
Oh yeah, if you're a police officer, and you're going to feed me shit about speed cameras making a difference, then f*** you in advance. Read the international studies dispelling the myth - there are plenty of them.
AC
Tell that to the disabled vet who got a leg blown off because he was fighting enemy troops after his comrade (they wanted his friend for a war trophy to behead.)
Please. Go ahead. Visit your local VFW and tell them that handicapped vets should fend for themselves. Maybe an ex-marine might set the parent poster straight.
It's only going to become a problem in phase 2 when sharp spikes leap out of the ground and puncture the tyres of cars without an electronic tag.
No need to go for the tyres, go for the feet. That way, you know they are now disabled, no need for a ticket.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
If armed robbers invade my property, I'll eliminate the threat with my gun--unless politically correct assholes like you take gun rights away too.
What does it mean when a parking spot is marked with a wheelchair symbol? ...
The sign means you're unable to walk; requiring additional space to allow you to be able to access your wheel chair when you get in or out of your vehicle.
Yesterday's Weirdness is Tomorrow's Reason Why
people in wheelchairs needs the bigger spaces to have to room to get out of the car.
I don't know why you assume it would be good for business. The cost to put in a handicapped ramp may not be justified by returns, especially if it would lead me to increase prices and my competitor didn't make the same choice. Plus which, early adopters invariably pay more. The law is basically society getting together and saying "we want this to happen, but we realize nobody is going to make the sacrifices unless we make sure everyone makes them together".
There are plenty of examples in game theory of agents acting independently in naked self-interest leading to pessimal outcomes for everyone. I don't know why it's so difficult for some people to wrap their heads around this idea. I don't have that big of a problem with greed and selfishness; I just have a problem with making it into a religion as a way of ameliorating cognitive dissonance.
Yes you can go to jail for people who abuse it what some who really needed that space but did not get do to jobs may of called the cops and at very least got it towed or maybe even have jobs go to jail.
From what I've seen, most people with handicap stickers park in a way that tells you they're handicapped. Usually they're at a sharp angle off of the parallel from the lines or they park really close to another car. Even when it's a little compact car in a space reserved for a van with 5 or 6 feet clearance on all sides, so you know it's not because they need the extra room. And then there's the people with handicapped stickers who just stay in their car in the spot while someone without any handicaps runs inside for them. People with the stickers who either shouldn't be driving or else shouldn't have the sticker in the first place are a bigger problem than people who steal a handicapped spot without having the sticker.
Fun anecdote. In college, I broke my leg and was in a wheelchair for three months. The officer (state school, so the campus cops were state troopers with all of the training and abilities that go with it) still wouldn't let me have a handicap sticker. He was fired less than a year later for stealing donuts from the local gas station.
Traffic cop? you say that like you don't know New Zealand councils hire private companies to patrol the streets handing out tickets for commission.
The morbidly obese have even less distance to walk!
If they're parked in a handicapped spot and aren't really handicapped, just break their leg! There! Now they're handicapped and can park there! Problem solved!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Businesses will offer spaces to the handicapped on their own because it's good for business.
No, they won't. There aren't enough handicapped customers to justify--profit-wise--the reduced number of parking spaces due to the greater width and restrictions of handicapped spaces. When markets forces fail to produce a desired outcome (i.e., allowing the disabled to participate in commerce), legislation can (and sometimes does) correct the failure.
Reading comments so far on this thread with people arguing about actual need for “walking disabled” parking spaces, I realize that this is just one of those topics you cannot possibly truly comprehend without being a disabled person. Sure, I understand that many parking spots may go unused and the there are of course those that abuse the system. However, there are also a large number of people, like me, that really need this kind of parking system. Nothing sucks more than trying to unload a 300 pound electric wheelchair when boxed in by two SUVs so close the doors cannot open. In addition, nothing sucks more than having to traipse across a large parking lot looking for a lost car when ever step you take puts you in excruciating pain. In fact, without this reserved parking system, I simply would not be able to go many places or partake in many activities. Even on a good day, it really is a confidence booster to know that if something goes wrong and I need to exit in a hurry that my car is right out front.
This walking disabled parking system, while maybe not perfect, is in place to serve those that actually need it. Thus, the bottom line is that while you may not understand or agree with enforcement actions such as those now being enacted in New Zealand, there are many people with a legitimate need that will indeed benefit from it.
While the OP incorrectly calls on Darwin to make his point, there is a subtle wider issue that is not getting the same attention.
What does it mean to be disabled?
This may just be my own prejudice creeping out but I have a .... acquaintance who gets government assistance because of her obesity. She also gets government assistance because she's a single mother, jobless, and whatnot, but best of all do you know what her 1 year old baby's favourite meal is? KFC Chicken Nuggets. But that's not my biggest gripe. My biggest gripe is that she also has a disabled parking permit and again gets another government check for a disease that some people think doesn't really exists and is all in the patients head. Naturally doctors are reluctant to diagnose this "disease" and 10 different doctors told her she's as healthy as a grossly overweight person can get. Doctor 11 caved and now she gets to park her perfectly abled body in a disabled carpark and spend my tax dollars on more Macdonalds.
Another thing unrelated to disabled people, why do shopping centres reserve spots right next to disabled people for parents with prams? If a mother can spend 3 hours pushing a pram through the shopping centre she can spend the extra 1 minute pushing it to her car. In this country though the parents with prams reservation isn't legally enforceable.
The OP may have originally invoked Darwin in a way that offends, but as a society on the whole we are being coddled.
You're probably young and healthy now. But I predict you're going to be the whiniest, most demanding, most self-entitled old geezer at the nursing home, and when you finally kick the bucket, the staff will throw a party.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
When a disabled guy parks in a standard space! Can we ticket them?
I propose cameras pointed in to toilet stalls with 24/7 monitoring to ensure that handicapped toilet stalls aren't abused by those able-bodied assholes. We'll also need to amend the building code to increase the total number of available stalls to ensure that the population is appropriately served.
I was on the building planning committee for a new building at Stanford. The bathrooms are comically large because of handicap access requirements. Despite consuming 800 square feet, there are only six total stalls. The same building also has two handicapped parking spots out front, out of four parking spots total.
Given that the population served is, on average, 22 years old and in excellent health, these measures seem inappropriate. Things would be completely different if this were a retirement home.
a disease that some people think doesn't really exists and is all in the patients head
Yes, some people think that. There is a technical medical term for those people: "idiots".
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
a disease that some people think doesn't really exists and is all in the patients head
I used to work with someone who had fibromyalgia. It cleared up once she switched from tap water to bottled water. Perhaps she was reacting adversely to one of the additives in the local city water.
The problem with this is that the harm done by parking in a disabled space is proportional to how long you are parked there. Under the old system, so was your probability of getting a fine. So a person parking in a disabled space for a short amount of time has a small chance of getting a fine, but is not doing much harm.
This system ignores this fact, and spends (probably) disproportionate resources on the people who do the least harm. Compare it with a system designed especially to catch people who cheated a few dollars on their tax.
Danny Vermin: "I can park here, I am handicapped, I'm psychotic."
JoeR
Quit fucking with evolution.
I agree. Your mother should've had an abortion.
Oh, we didn't see the permit. Fill in these forms and we'll waive the fine. Paying up would be easier.
Mostly it benefits the morally handicapped -- those who are willing to pretend some illness (or use actual obesity) to get a better parking spot (or a parking spot at all). Me, I had surgery on my hip and got to walk on crutches past a dozen handicapped spots to get to work, most of which were empty and the rest of which were occupied by people who could walk better than I could. Once I went to a movie theater, and had to cross a busy street (on crutches) because the only lot which didn't have a busy street between it and the door was all handicapped parking.
So all that crap about how handicapped parking is important and how if I needed it I'd appreciate it... no, sorry. I needed it; as I expected, it wasn't actually there and was actually harmful. Now I've got arthritis of the knees; still no handicapped permit, still bitter when I've got to walk past acres of handicapped parking.
While the OP incorrectly calls on Darwin to make his point, there is a subtle wider issue that is not getting the same attention.
What does it mean to be disabled?
This may just be my own prejudice creeping out but I have a .... acquaintance who gets government assistance because of her obesity. She also gets government assistance because she's a single mother, jobless, and whatnot, but best of all do you know what her 1 year old baby's favourite meal is? KFC Chicken Nuggets. But that's not my biggest gripe. My biggest gripe is that she also has a disabled parking permit and again gets another government check for a disease that some people think doesn't really exists and is all in the patients head. Naturally doctors are reluctant to diagnose this "disease" and 10 different doctors told her she's as healthy as a grossly overweight person can get. Doctor 11 caved and now she gets to park her perfectly abled body in a disabled carpark and spend my tax dollars on more Macdonalds.
Another thing unrelated to disabled people, why do shopping centres reserve spots right next to disabled people for parents with prams? If a mother can spend 3 hours pushing a pram through the shopping centre she can spend the extra 1 minute pushing it to her car. In this country though the parents with prams reservation isn't legally enforceable.
The OP may have originally invoked Darwin in a way that offends, but as a society on the whole we are being coddled.
Just because a few fatties may or may not be exploiting a system designed to help people with a genuine need doesn't mean it's a completed screwed up system. If she really is exploiting the system then problem is the 11th doctor (and 12th, 13th etc she would have eventually found if the 11th hadn't played ball), not the existence of disabled parking spots. I think you're venting your frustration at the wrong target here.
It's not fucking with evolution. And no, you're not a "darwinist" (which is a derogatory term used by opponents of evolution, btw), as you have a very poor grasp of evolution. In other words you are either ignorant or, given your self description just a creationist troll, as I suspect. Or an out of place satire, but you'd you be parodying other than a certain strawman?
Teaching a troll would be a waste of bits, but for any confused readers, "survival of the fittest" is an old - arguable outdated - and highly informal reference to the ability to propagate ones genes to future generations. It also refers to populations in periods of time, not a specific individual living its life. If you as an individual break your arm, current evolutionary theory says little about your actual survival and absolutely nothing about that random circumstance (your child won't be born with a broken arm). What it does address is that genes to promote effective recovery are favored. Or genes that promote social bindings (such as general welfare to care for those in trouble), which is present in our and many other species.
Further more, the science of evolution does not say anything on how we should live, it's just an explanation and observation for how the biosphere got to where it is today, informally speaking (on a side note, that's why the Theory of Evolution is both referred to as scientific theory and scientific fact). How we organize our social structure is up to us, how we "should" organize our social structure is up to what we value. I'd say we value having a high standard of living, and thus try to extend that to as many people as possible (well, some of us, at any rate). So we do things like take care for the poor, the disabled, the old - and in turn hope that the same treatment comes to us when we need it. And in terms of the big picture, the survival of our species (or more specifically, our genes), all that effort spent on welfare isn't going to hurt it one damn bit. Meh, we might not have guaranteed survival in the bag, but compared to the other fauna, we've got it pretty damn good. Yeah, we could be wiped out by asteroid, atomic war, Justin Beiber clones, or a super bug - and it would take something of that magnitude to kick us off the list - but making handicap parking spots isn't going to affect the probability or outcome of that one bit.
And that's why I know any self-proclaimed social-darwinist doesn't understand two whits of evolution, basic biology, or social science.
-Yours truly,
Verbose Eye-Dee Ten Tee
I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
Traffic cop? you say that like you don't know New Zealand councils hire private companies to patrol the streets handing out tickets for commission.
As long as they catch the people overstaying their time in a parking spot so I can find somewhere to park I don't really care about the semantics.
Fibromyalgia is a real thing, but like many such diseases, there is no test for it and no way to "prove" it exists (at least not yet), so there will always be doubters. It's also quite possible that it's not any single disease, but rather can have multiple causes. Maybe it's not a diease at all, but symptoms of something else like an allergy or who knows what?
I have a disease like that. There's no test, and no cure. It's called Psoriatic Arthritis. Luckily, you can see the effects (swollen joints and ligaments among others), but there is no way to "prove" that you have it. That doesn't mean the pain isn't real, and certainly the physical deformation is real.
Now, whether or not your friend actually has Fibromyalgia or not is irrelevant. It's a real disease, and don't base your prejudice of your friend against it.
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I concur. My wife has been diagnosed with Fibromyalgia; if it is "all in her head," then there is still something wrong physically. She gets shooting pains at times, gets the prickly skin associated with fever (but no fever), even claims at times that her hair hurts (again, I have had that when I am feverish).
Is she coddled? Sure. Maybe we should take away comfy couches, because those coddle us. And toothpaste. And running water (that coddles a LOT); we could just use wells, and boil / filter it if we don't like the smell / taste / whatever.
And the business can have them towed and collect a nice kickback from the impound fee...
you are not a "darwinist" you are a randroid. fuck you
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
How Republican of you to say so.
Honestly, it gets really complicated really quickly. There are some things where there's not much argument to be had, if you can't walk or are blind or require assistance to live there's not going to be much argument.
However, if you're just missing a hand or a finger or have hearing in only one ear, that gets a bit murkier as those are things that people can and do live without, granted they aren't going to do everything without some adjustments, but they should be able to manage without too much help.
Everyone knows it means "Fat people parking"
Needs to be overhauled. Daily I see people park in those spots and sprint into the stores. Now they may have them for elderly parents or what not, but, I really can't see the DMV giving out those placards as "handicap" for a MENTAL handicap! Doctors write scripts for people who do not need these things. At one university, the "who's who" people, when there is a concert, basketball game etc, clog up the handicap parking with their SUV's, caddy's etc.
You obviously didn't watch the linked video, and neither did moderators. My point wasn't that people should park in handicapped spots. It's that the ADA mandates those spots, and the larger the business, the more spots are required, leaving empty handicapped spots all over the place. There is no need for that kind of flat regulation because a business will provide its own spots to attract more customers, and if a business sees that most of the spots are empty most of the time, they can adjust the number of them to cater to the customer base they're receiving.
Fuck the vets. They signed up for a high-risk job of their own free will. If they were injured, they were compensated accordingly. That's the end of it. We're even. If they got shafted, it was their own damn fault. Cry to your congressmen.
Allow handicapped folk to report violators (resulting in a ticket) if they can take photos providing a suitable level of proof.
They're present, they're invested in the process, and it would save money on the enforcement side and increase revenues.
i agree. starting with negroidism.
Posted as AC of course. ;)
I didn't know having a shorter distance to the store was a fundamental right of the crippled.
Fibromyalgia is a real thing, but like many such diseases, there is no test for it and no way to "prove" it exists (at least not yet), so there will always be doubters.
Psychosomatic illnesses have been around for ever, and that is why there is such confusion. They tend to follow trends of what is currently in the news, rather than resulting from external effects upon patients. I'm not trying to diminish the symptoms.
You're a fucking moron that doesn't understand evolution. You should be removed from the gene pool.
You can't "help" evolution. You also can't keep evolution from happening. The genes that spread the most are winners, no matter how or why it happens.
He owned the building complex, and you are only required to have a legally mandated number of handicapped spots. Steve insured that there were more than the legally mandated number of spots available so that he was never in technical violation of the rules.
Here's the ADA requirements for parking spaces:
http://www.ada.gov/adata1.htm
Here's a more accessible interpretation, with a table indicating the number of spots required per number of total parking spaces:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Disability-Law-917/Handicapped-Parking.htm
He was perfectly within his rights, so long as there was not a sufficient number of other people gaming the system at the same time. I suggest you avoid trying to do the same thing, unless you are the property owner and the single largest tax payer in a given municipality, however.
You'll likely eventually win, unless you are a total dick, but the lawyer costs will exceed just paying the fine, since it isn't a moving violation and therefore will only cost you the fine.
-- Terry
The standard fire department protocol for dealing with a car that's parked in a fire lane if they get there and there's a fire is to break the windows and run the hose through the car, or else push it out of the way with a fire truck and then break the windows.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Goodness me, two posts and both of you show tremendous lack of knowledge of how evolution works. This is why we have to teach evolution in school!
To the first poster, evolution only happens when there's selection pressure, i.e. large portion of the population is dying in their reproductive ages from something. If you're assuming that movement in the parking lots creates any sort of selection pressure and thus helps evolution, then it must resemble a scene from MW2.
Second poster, helping evolution does not mean reducing gene pool. The genes for inheritable diseases are usually recessive and when paired with a dominant one, it can be actually better than having two dominant ones. Like sickle cell anemia and malaria. Anyway, in times when there's no selection pressure, we should be maintaining as much a genetic diversity and as deep a gene pool as possible because when that selection pressure comes along, we don't know which gene in the gene pool is going to be the ones that takes us to the next step in the path of evolution.
In conclusion, you both misunderstand evolution.
I used to work in an office building that had been converted from a retail store. The parking lot was designed for retail, which was great - the worst space in the lot was still better than the best spaces in our main location. It had four handicapped spaces, and maybe once a month we'd have somebody park in one of them; my officemate joked that since he was deaf, he needed a handicapped space. So we had to walk 10 feet farther; no big deal.
But for retail use, that would have been about right, given the size of the store.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I didn't know having a shorter distance to the store was a fundamental right of the crippled.
If the store owner put the parking space there, it is their property rights that are relevant, if the law says they have to, it is a legislated right. Either way, the disabled have a right to that space and the able-bodied do not. Nothing to do with "fundamental rights".
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If there's an unnecessary handicapped spot, able-bodied people have to walk at most one parking place farther (usually less.) But during the times of day when it's not very busy, the average able-bodied person already gets to walk less, because the parking lot's not very full, so they already win. And while the original article was about New Zealanders, we're Americans, and making us get extra exercise walking in from the parking lot is about the best National Health Care we're going to get.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
What they should do is have license plates with RFID and E-INK on them.
If you pull into a handicapped spot, the RFID tag identifies you, and if you're not authorized the E-INK display changes a portion of the license plate to say "ILLEGALLYPARKED IN HANDICAP"
And as soon as that happens, an officer can write the ticket at any time.
You already got the benefit, PRIVILEGE (and this straight, it is a privilege, NOT a right) of the space. It is your RESPONSIBILITY now to park in it correctly. Just because you get to use this space does NOT mean you get to now inconvenience others. We gave up some of our convenience for yours, you do not get the right to further ask us for more inconvenience. If you want us to not park in your spot, then you have to reciprocate and park correctly. Or else you know what, we can just rescind the whole damn thing. How about that?
a fine isn't automatically issued.
...yet.
How wonderfully brave of you to volunteer for down mods whilst posting as an anonymous coward. Yep, you'd make Darwin proud, you would. Were I less filled with seasonal bonhomie I'd consider you an excellent candidate for post-partum abortion. Meanwhile, I'll just take up my cane and move on.
Lawmakers have generally made the citation worse for parking in a handicap stall than parking in the middle of the road, blocking fire lanes, etc. Nothing like a financial incentive encouraging the best behavior in society.
Most people, even hypocondriacs, can't fake all the symptoms accurately. What's known to the layman about these diseases is not the same as what the doctors know. You have to have very specific symptoms, and be able to talk about them in great detail, not just vaguely wave your hands.
Trust me, you can't easily fake the knowledge necessary from actual experience. You would have to be intimately familiar with someone who had the disease.
That doesn't mean it's beyond the realm of possibility, but if you go to that much trouble... you could fake a lot of things that are much better known and less work.
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With all due respect for your wife, is she unable to walk?
Every time I see the said person with fibromyalgia she is out partying and getting drunk. The main point I was trying to make is that fibromyaligia is a disease which is an easy target for con artists looking for a government paycheck and a disabled sticker on their car.
I'm not arguing that some people don't suffer horribly from it, just that we lump everyone who has anything worse than a cough these days as disabled and give them benefits which they don't at all need.
Why? You're a fucking cripple. If you can take a wrench to my kneecaps, then you don't need the spot. So get back on your scooter, and do your daily 1 mph tour of Walmart while wheezing heavily as you reach for the bon bons which you're probably pay for with food stamps.
started watching that, so far so good
it's a critical analysis of ADA in general
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
or use the big V8 in the lift van my Mom drove for my sister and push the little hatchback out of the spot. The amount of tire squeal it made had people looking and clapping. God bless her Irish temper.
an employee made such a sign for the lot
Table-ized A.I.
so you're saying that they would have to bear the costs of access services themselves (whether as a consumer or on the job)
However, it seems like a chicken and egg problem if they're otherwise able to be productive. It may make sense for the government to force a solution to that if the market isn't. Nevertheless, it doesn't make sense to offload all the monetary costs onto those of sound mind and body.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
People who park in disabled spots are always disabled.
Either they're physically disabled or they're mentally disabled retards.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
The truth is that most disabled people aren't disabled because of some genetic trait, but because of some other unfortunate incident along the way.
Sometimes both. I have a disability due to an "unfortunate incident" along the way, but the cause of the incident may have been genetic. Where's that leave me?
Learn to love Alaska
Or they could cut out the middle man. Thingamabobber with a camera automatically takes a pic of every car that parks in handicapped spots, which uploads it to a central office. If handicapped tag or plate isn't easily or readily identified by people or an AI at that office, then the offender gets a nice fat ticket in the mail. At which point they can feel free to go to a court to contest it if they feel it was somehow wrong.
Technically this really isn't any more difficult to put into place than red-light cameras, and if anybody jumped on this - I'm sure it would be a lot more profitable. Just a matter of getting state legislative approval for this method of enforcement.
I've long since suspected it makes sense to distinguish between physical and mental disabilities, handicapped parking seems like a prime example of where this would be relevant.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
So you want people to install an evil bit in their car?
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
had a libertarian streak, I understand that's not surprising coming form these guys.
the video also argued that you can't legislate morality/compassion, and that good intentions don't necessarily work out as intended
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
Another thing unrelated to disabled people, why do shopping centres reserve spots right next to disabled people for parents with prams? If a mother can spend 3 hours pushing a pram through the shopping centre she can spend the extra 1 minute pushing it to her car. In this country though the parents with prams reservation isn't legally enforceable.
Because it's convenient with extra space to load them (the children that is). It scratches up fewer other cars. And being able to tell the older children to go to the front of the car and stand on the pavement is a lot better (as in safer) than having them in the parking lot proper.
But don't worry. This is something you'll understand when you have kids yourself. You'll look back to the days before when you were ignorant and laugh. On the good days. Most days you'll look back and cry... (But don't despair, it'll get better. Pushing prams doesn't last that long.)
Stefan Axelsson
It seems like it could be a more-general use of "you".
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
They are already doing this in Melbourne (Australia) for regular parking spots. Some spots have sensors which detect when a vehicle enters and leaves the spot, and car-mounted camera's drive around checking plates as well. It wouldn't be too hard to extend that to cars known to have permits or not.
I'm not sure though, even in Australia where I live, if the permits are linked to the vehicle or the person. The latter would make more sense (eg if you're helping a friend out by taking them to the shops in your car) but then it isn't possible to automatically process via camera (tags in Australia are mounted on the front windscreen which isn't normally visible from the road depending on how the car is parked).
The thing that really bugs me is the parents at my kids school who park in the disabled spots even when they don't have the disabled child/person with them and aren't picking them up or dropping them off. These are the same parents that will yell and scream at others if they dare use those spots when they shouldn't. Grrr.
so a ham-fisted government attempt to help a minority makes members of the majority less enthusiastic about helping that minority?
a few bad apples amongst the minority itself can also do this.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
The question you should ask yourself: is being able to walk the correct selection criteria? Ableness to walk is usefull, true, but are those unable to walk also unable to be usefull cogs in the great machine of society?
I would set the selection criterium to those to stupid to think about their theories and of those only those who also broadcast them.
Or those who miss certain brain functions (empathy for example) redering them unable to simply take care of the weaker parts of society.
Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
makes more sense if the disability in question is genetic. the cause of a nongenetic disability seems too distant to naturally select against.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
well, injured veterans are amongst those disabled due to a nongenetic reason, so Darwin seems too distant even if one is concerned about such things.
Incidentally, monetary costs of the disability should be/are part of what the veteran is paid for his service.
PS :P
you mean Marine not currently on active duty?
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
I hope they stop giving disabled parking to pregnant women. Getting your stupid ass knocked up doesn't mean you deserve to park by the entrance.
would a social attitude against mothers/expectant mothers lower the birthrate? if so, is that what you want to happen?
if anything, first world nations seem to have too low of a birthrate (granted, a lower amount of people at a first world standard of living use more resources overall)
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
disabled access seems to be quite expensive for mass transit systems to provide, and yet they pay a LOWER fare.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
No matter what method you're going to use to detect violators, make sure the punishment is severe. Here's an idea:
First, separate the parking into privileged spots (which includes the handicapped spaces), normal spaces and way out in the most remote parts the penalty spaces. Checking the permits should use some form of electronic check that is always up to date, and could include license plate or license id displayed.
Now, if someone if found to be parked where he doesn't belong, this is what happens. The car is towed right away as a rush job (double the cost which the offender has to pay), a 24 hour lockout period at the impound lot (the car has to sit there minimum 24 hours before it can be released), a storage fee calculated on the number of 24 hours days, which means that violators have to pay for at least two days. Add to this a hefty fine, and last but not least a penalty mark, which means that for a period (6-12 months perhaps?) this car is only allowed to park in the penalty spaces or the regular spaces nearest the penalty spaces if they're all full.
Additional violations will double the fines each time, as well as the lockout period before the car can be released. The fines will go to a handicap organization chosen by the parking lot owner. Oh, and cars not claimed and paid for within 72 hours after the expiry of the lockout period are confiscated and sold at an auction. If this happen, the car is cleared from the penalty register unless the buyer is the previous owner or close family. If the car was a company car, the company that owns it are encouraged to sue the user for reimbursement for the cost of a new car. If they buy it back from the auction it will still be under penalty.
Making fake licenses or similar is counterfeiting and fraud and will be dealt with by the police, which usually means hard time.
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
Over here the situation is that parking is governed by local authorities. However the road laws are country wide (/european).
You cannot restrict some kind of big cars (Hummer etc..) driving on the road in your city. The road is public, so no limit there. However the parking is a different kind. By limiting the number of parking spots, or kind of cars that can effectively park, you can limit the number of cars.
If you live in the center of a big city, and you have no way to park your car, you will not buy a car. If it is very expensive to park a car, you will think twice before buying it there, or buying a second car.
in b4 "OMG 1984 5th amendment eleventyonehundr3d!!!!!!"
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
... that a lot of disabled spaces in supermarket carparks have a squarish orange pad bolted to the tarmac. It's not quite a foot square and a couple of inches thick. I did wonder if this was some sort of transponder sensor for disabled drivers to summon assistance, but no-one I know who has a disabled person parking permit has any such transponder or any idea what the pads do.
Maybe it just detects the presence or absence of a car, nothing more.
If a disabled is keen enough to enforce politicians and other decission makers to create handicap parkings and he is intellegent enough to get such a parking voucher, surely this is survival of the fittest.
Change the point of view!
you just have been beaten by Darwin.
Most healthy people parking in those spots already have forged handicap cards, or real ones by bribing a doctor.
Never mess with New Zealand Cops.
Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
I'll remember that next time you injure yourself and could, with proper care, live an entirely productive life if you received appropriate medical attention from someone with the expertise. Instead I'll just push you out, steal your car, and leave you at the side of the road to figure things out on your own.
PS: You FAIL as a "Darwinist". Any Darwinist worth their salt understands that the most powerful adaptation that humans have managed to evolve is an intricate ability to develop a society in which people make social and economic deals with each other to mutual benefit. If you can't see the potential benefits of a society that grants a little leeway to people who are physically less capable than you are, but are still productive, then you will realize soon enough when you reach the age of 70 or experience a physical injury but still "foolishly" think you have a right to survive.
Happy Carrousel Day to you, faux Darwinist sir.
You'd think by this time we could spend our efforts making better use of these spaces? Instead of a system that automatically watches and simply penalizes people who use these spots, how about a system that works on the opportunity-cost model? It would
a) monitor these parking places
b) if a valid handicap parking-user shows up and there are no spots available, anyone parked in them gets tagged and fined.
We've all been at shopping centers where there are dozens if not scores of empty handicap spots available, even during the crazy-busy shopping days at Christmas.
This would make these (generally unused) spots available for the sort of high-demand, short "I'm only going to be in there for 5 mins" things" BUT ALSO strongly penalize people who use them for anything more IF there is a valid handicap space user that needs it...
-Styopa
How about we punish people if they take a disabled spot AND someone with a disability shows up and is unable to find a spot. I hate it when the whole darn lot is full except for those spots and I'm only going to be five minutes. This is like punishing J-walkers for crossing an empty country road.
It's the same thing with "Parents with Prams" parking spots - unless you want to discriminate against them as well?
Actually, that's discrimination in favor of parents. Handicapped spots make sense, because disability is a tragedy and we want to help these unfortunate people out. Parenthood is not a tragedy, it's a choice, a choice that doesn't really benefit anyone but the parent. Why should we make special concessions for them?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Id be OK with this if:
a) Morbidly obese couldn't qualify for disabled stickers just because of their own poor 'lifestyle choices'. Jeez if anyone needs some walking exercise its them.
and
b) We trim the number of legally required disabled places by half, as they're always all empty anyway
A passive system like RFID is too easy to forge and copy. An active ID system uses active encryption for challenge and response. It can't be easily bypassed unless you can take apart an integrated circuit and read it's memory contents directly.
Just stick GPS on every car and monitor all citizen movements. Then you will know when an 'unauthorized car' is in the wrong spot.
Oh, and you get to follow everyone around all the time and record them as a byproduct.. "Its for the kids" ya know.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
... death penalty. That will make them think twice, as well as finally proving a credible argument for capital punishment as an effective deterrent!
Sure! We intend to use the parking spot for only a minute or two but then reality sets in. The line at the cashier is long, or we get sidetracked by something and forget we are using a handicapped spot. A few minutes becomes much longer than we intended. Also, how is the cop going to know if this was actually the case. Imagine a cop writing a ticket. The offender was using the parking spot for more than a few minutes. Do you expect a cop to wait and waste his time to see if it was actually a few minutes. What would happen if the offender was there for a long time and the cop sees him just as he is pulling out of the spot? The offender avoids a ticket just by telling the officer that he was there for only a minute? The only enforceable way is to have an absolute ban on the non-disabled from using a handicapped spot.
I couldn't have phrased it better.
The last building I worked at had 12 disabled parking spots in front of it due to some wacky ADA formula. There was one guy who worked there who had a placard. The building wasn't open to the public.
We used them as informal loading zone spots if we had to carry something big in or out. Otherwise they'd never be used.
Yes, some people think that.
You know, I don't think that. I think the issue exists in their mouth. Specifically, too much of it is in their mouth. If you're fat, it's because you are either eating too much, or not exercising enough. There is a healthy balance. At some point, there needs to be some accountability. People will always blame things that are out of their control if they're given the option.
I learned an important lesson when I was younger - it's always my fault. It goes both ways - good and bad. Generally, when it's good - we call it credit, but the point still stands. Whatever happens, it's your fault. So, I'm fit and healthy - yes, that's my fault....or to my credit. Because of it, I walk across the entire parking lot - not because I must (there are usually closer spots) but because I choose to (and because I am able).
I don't mind though, it gives me strength to do what needs to be done (eating right, exercising, you know... not being a fat blob). Keep doing what you're doing because it helps me realize that I'm doing it right. Here are some words of encouragement:
It is not your fault that you're overweight because someone obviously held a gun to your head and made you eat the entire bucket of extra crispy.
Lifting the remote control is all the exercise you need because you just finished an eating marathon.
Go ahead and eat the last Ding Dong - eating the entire box in one sitting will give you a sense of accomplishment.
You have a right to complain to the store manager because the handicapped scooter seat is too small for one of your butt cheeks.
I'm not really trying to be mean to the overweight people reading (or the sympathizers). This is intended to be motivational....more or less.
Remember:
Whether you decide that you can or you decide that you can't - you're right.
I'll actually agree with you - but with caveats.
Down around Sebring, FL, you have 10 rows of handicapped parking spots in front of Walmart, and it's not enough.
When they first put in the Gym at the military base I was stationed at, they put a dozen spots in - but off to the side. Please note that this is NOT a base where rehab takes place - I had been sufficiently injured to be disabled, I would have been moved to another base, such as Walter Reed(when it was still open). Even after they turned half of them into VIP spots(god forbid high ranking officers don't get a close spot so they don't have to walk too far before their workout), I never saw any cars parked there. Annoyance factor: The parking lot was frequently 100% full, except for those spots.
I'm at a new base now, and the handicapped spots (there are 3) ARE used, mostly by retirees. Not a problem - these are people working out what they can to keep what they can. Yes, the mere walk from/to the car ends up being a major workout, but that's life.
I don't read AC A human right
I'm thinking 'take two spots', perhaps at an angle such that nobody wants to park next to him.
I'd just stencil, very obviously, 'HANDICAPPED ACCESS RAMP: 6' CLEARANCE REQUIRED' on the side of the van where the ramp is.
I don't read AC A human right
I was here to see some technical discussion about the system used, and I find a big pile of crap about the use of parking spaces. where did all of the interesting people go?
There was an unknown error in the submission.
I figure that even if he got a violation ticket, he probably simply paid the fine as a 'business expense'. There are a lot of companies that pay any parking violation tickets for their employees - it's cheaper than them spending the time to find legal parking spots.
On Steve Jobs - consider that even if you got a $250 ticket every day, that's $91k/year in parking tickets. For somebody making >$10M/year, that's less than 1% of their income. At that income level, you're making like $5k/hour. So if you save more than 3 minutes for each $250 ticket, it's worth it.
Of course, it takes a bit of a dick of a cop to give the UPS/Fedex truck a parking ticket for parking right in front of a store, office building, or apartment complex, but it happens occasionally. I have more sympathy for those drivers than I do for Jobs.
I don't read AC A human right
All of my posts on Slashdot are AC. I only register on sites that absolutely require it... and then I use fake information, like most people here would.
FWIW, I am still modded up fairly often.
Lawsuit-happy lawyers is no more a problem with the ADA than the RIAA is a problem with the Internet. As long as there are laws, there will be people who will try to sue who have no good case. The problem is with the US legal system which doesn't do enough to protect against frivolous lawsuits.
Who's saying that I think that #3 shouldn't be on a wider basis? Heck, all of them, adjusted as appropriate? Unless an individual has actually suffered serious harm, I think that businesses need to be given a chance to correct something first.
In short, I agree.
I don't read AC A human right
Handicapped people need special consideration, but it's all about balance. If ten non-handicapped people can make sporadic use of a handicapped spot, saving each ten minutes of driving around looking for an empty regular spot that's not there, with the downside that a handicapped person might have to wait five minutes for the person briefly occupying the spot if it happened to be occupied at the time the handicapped person came in, I think it is a fair trade.
The objective of handicapped spots are NOT to guarantee immediate parking to a handicapped person, as the time of a handicapped person is not in any way more valuable than the time of a non-handicapped one. The objective is to guarantee that they will be able to get a spot that's closer to their destination than the average spot, but I see no reason why they shouldn't have to wait occasionally.
So this system will be a net loss for humanity.
the problem isn't fast non handicapped people using spots, or the number of spots. it's people who have a tag that belongs to a handicapped friend that lets them use it.
I frequently see completely full parking lots. Well, almost completely full--all spots taken (and then some) except for the handicapped spots. Those spots are simply to enable a disabled person's access to the door, but when no such person is using any of the only slots left, there should be a provision for this, as I'm "here" ready to do business and they're not.
Not everybody's tap water is treated with fluoride salts. I seem to remember that's what she was reacting to.
With all due respect for your wife, is she unable to walk?
There's a difference between being unable to walk and unable to navigate a large parking lot safely. My wife has Multiple Sclerosis and now Cancer as well (come to think of it, I'm going to make her start buying lottery tickets). On good days, she can get around pretty well. You'd never even know she was sick. But on bad days, she can't get very far without having to take a rest. And it's not like there's a safe place for her to just sit down and take a rest in a parking lot. Also, it's not always clear what type of day she's going to have until it gets bad.
Every time I see the said person with fibromyalgia she is out partying and getting drunk. The main point I was trying to make is that fibromyaligia is a disease which is an easy target for con artists looking for a government paycheck and a disabled sticker on their car.
I'm not arguing that some people don't suffer horribly from it, just that we lump everyone who has anything worse than a cough these days as disabled and give them benefits which they don't at all need.
Your neighbor is malingering; we get that. Doesn't mean that everyone with a Fibro diagnosis has it for the purpose of scamming Uncle Sam. I believe that they legitimately "hurt", but there is no diagnostic for it yet.
FWIW, it's not like the diagnostics for other diseases are so cut and dried. For example, healthy individuals with no clinical Multiple Sclerosis symptoms (and who will never experience clinical MS symptoms) can have brain lesions show up on MRI that look exactly like MS lesions. My wife had her spleen removed because active cancer showed up there on a CT scan, but once pathology had a look at it, it was just a clump of blood vessels (I forget the exact name for it, but anyway, it was normal and harmless). Life isn't so simple as "if it shows up on imaging then it's there, otherwise you're a faker".
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
So, our veteran soldiers who lose limbs defending our rights shouldn't get to park closer to the store? That's not Darwinist theory at work.
Now having "Expecting Mother" parking, that I can agree with doing away with. Pregnant mothers should be exercising.
There are some supposed handicappers that have gained the system and get a handicap tag.
I get sick and tired of seeing these people walk into a store when there is obviously nothing wrong with them.
Sorry, but you are confused.
The fact that the general rule of thumb for parking enforcement officers is to ticket a car without a placard parked in a spot marked to require a placard doesn't impact whether or not that enforcement is legally mandated.
You are missing three crucial points:
(1) The Apple parking lots are clearly marked "private property" (try parking in them and walking to BJ's Restaurant and see what happens to your car).
(2) Parking enforcement on private property is only done as a result of a request from the property owner.
So yeah, you'll get towed if you park an unplacarded car in a spot marked to require a placard which happens to be on private property if there is a complaint by the property owner or one of their legally appointed representatives (such as corporate security). How likely is it that the property owner or one of their representatives to sic parking enforcement on themselves/their boss? How likely is it that someone else manning the cameras isn't going to say "Hey! They're towing the bosses car!" and put a stop to it, even if the act was done by a maverick as their way of resigning?
Public places of business, such as malls, will usually have blanket agreements with the local authorities, including profit sharing for ticketed violations. You'll usually get unconditionally ticketed there, but even then, there are generally "executive vehicle" bumper/windshield stickers issued to upper management in those places to exempt them from the rules.
-- Terry