Slashdot Mirror
School Sends Child's Lunch Home After Determining it Unhealthy
halfEvilTech writes "A North Carolina mom is irate after her four-year-old daughter returned home late last month with an uneaten lunch the mother had packed for the girl earlier that day. But she wasn't mad because the daughter decided to go on a hunger strike. Instead, the reason the daughter didn't eat her lunch is because someone at the school determined the lunch wasn't healthy enough and sent it back home. What was wrong with the lunch? That's still a head-scratcher because it didn't contain anything egregious: a turkey and cheese sandwich, banana, potato chips, and apple juice. But for the inspector on hand that day, it didn't meet the healthy requirements."
Maybe it didn't have what plants crave?
- d
.... not so much the fact that this may have happened, but the fact that slashdot put it on the front page. This story has set the conservative blogosphere alight over "obama's nanny state" and what have you while overlooking one huge glaring problem here...
They are taking the word of a four year old kid to be god's-own-truth. I'm not saying she's intentionally lying, but how many reliable four year olds have you met in your life time? There could well be a very large gap between what she was told and what she thought she heard, and yet another between what she did and what she told her parents.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Sure, the teachers might not be at fault her (I need to insert that comment to pretend I give a damn about the needs of the teachers) but what have they done to stop this nonsense? *cough*
All school kids need chicken nuggets.
I'll wait for some investigation into this. Note the source, TheBlaze, is an inquirer-like conservative rag.
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
Did you read what was in the lunch? You missed it. Not just a sandwhich and chips. A banana. Apple Juice. This is a perfectly healthy meal. The nanny state has gone mad and the enforcers have lost their minds due to abusive power....
Actual story:
- Lunch was not taken away from the girl; she was given extra food because they were worried she might not have enough.
- A standard form letter was sent to the parent, which said that she may be charged for the food - in fact, since the child was enrolled in the right program, she was not actually charged for the food
- The food given was milk and vegetables, not chicken nuggets.
http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/15/a-north-carolina-non-troversy/
http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/15/a-north-carolina-non-troversy/
And I must say, it is rather embarrassing for this site to be spreading such sensationalist garbage around, especially when no one's done the background research to verify it. We all love knee-jerk reactions induced by rantings from a personal blog, but come on.
Because, you know, it's got electrolytes.
HSJ$$*&#^!#+++ATH0
NO CARRIER
BMI doesn't mean anything, I can eat anything and everything, regardless of fat content, deep-fry levels or amount of MSG and I stay skinny as a twig - your metabolism is where it's at. Personally I would only deem the above lunch unhealthy only if the sandwich had no vegetables on it and amount of potato chips was obscene...
Bow before me, for I am root.
Obviously, all of our rights are in danger! This is not an isolated incident, not just some person out there who's having a bad day, it's a slippery slope!!! WE ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO NIP THIS IN THE BUD!
OK, I'll get my breath back now.
I think it's a much bigger problem that anyone on Slashdot would think this story is worth posting.
Bruce Perens.
It sounds like the inspector just wanted a turkey sandwich.
There was also the apple juice and a banana. It sure sounds better than the chicken nuggets the school gave the kid as a replacement.
But don't let the facts get in the way!
So, which one do you hate, fat people or parents? You seem to have unresolved issues somewhere.
Since when is apple juice healthy?
Some of my family works in education and they tell me on a regular basis that few kids get to eat breakfast and many don't get lunches or only have pop and chips for lunch. Assuming the kid's story is true I think everyone should be glad the mom is sending lunches at all. Sadly it's not the norm these days in a lot of places.
Yeah, this story is bullshit. The school provides supplementary food for the kids because some parents can't afford to provide fully balanced meals, no one is throwing out anyone's lunch here.
But what was so wrong with the lunch the mother provided? Nothing apparently. A spokesowman for the Division of Child Development explained that the mother’s meal should have been okay.
“With a turkey sandwich, that covers your protein, your grain, and if it had cheese on it, that’s the dairy,” Jani Kozlowski, the fiscal and statutory policy manager for the division, told the Journal. “It sounds like the lunch itself would’ve met all of the standard.”
It‘s unclear from reports who determined the lunch wasn’t healthy enough. ... The school denied knowledge of the incident and said it’s looking into it.
The real funny thing is at the bottom of TFA, people are posting rants against the Gov'ment and Michelle Obama, but it's a North Carolina rule, so people should be upset with their elected officials instead and, by proxy, themselves for voting for them...
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
I don't care if it wasn't healthy. I don't think the schools should be choosing what food kids are allowed to bring to eat.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Just twisted to support the usual right-wing scare agenda.
By and large, what this story boils down to is that a low-income child whose tuition is fully subsidized by the state under a program her mother opted into was offered some additional food to supplement the boxed lunch she brought from home. This option was provided not because of some overarching, generally applicable law or regulation, but because the program in which her mother and school voluntarily participate requires such an option be available.
http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/15/a-north-carolina-non-troversy/
Hey! But don't let that bit of reality disturb the rest of your enjoying the fine entertainment provided on Fox News!
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Why do you think it's your business, again?
It is both scary and disheartening when the libertarians are right.
Great Intellect...
Our school district doesn't allow most potato chips either. Sun Chips are okay, but Doritos or any type of potato chips you cannot have. They will take it away from your kids.
The most ridiculous part of it are the so-called USDA requirements for a healthy lunch:
The Division of Child Development and Early Education at the Department of Health and Human Services requires all lunches served in pre-kindergarten programs — including in-home day care centers — to meet USDA guidelines. That means lunches must consist of one serving of meat, one serving of milk, one serving of grain, and two servings of fruit or vegetables, even if the lunches are brought from home.
I was raised as a vegetarian, which meant absolutely no meat and no dairy and I think I can safely say that it made me a much healthier person than your average non-vegetarian. I can just imagine what would happen if a child showed up in this back-assward school with a veggie lunch. They'd give the child chicken nuggets and cause the child to become ill. Who the hell are these clowns to make a choice like that for others?
I'm glad that I grew up in the olden days and I feel sorry for the parents and children who have to put up with bullshit being pushed by these morons.
"If you (a consenting adult) wants to eat toxic garbage I have no problem with this (provided your insurance covers the costs)"
Ding-ding-ding-ding... this, right here, is why we will never have socialized medicine in the US: because people like you see it as an excuse to start designating what is "right." It is exactly the reason there was such a fuss, and while largely unfounded, it obviously had some truth as long as this sort of nonsense gets spewed.
Great Intellect...
I was with you until you started getting into the "white bread and apple juice are unhealthy" extremist rhetoric.
Look, I understand that chips and burgers are unhealthy, but I am not going to spend my life consuming only nuts, whole-grain bread and water.
If white bread and juice are a problem. then you can shove your dietetic values up your ass and politely go fuck yourself, Feel free to eat pure vitamin goo like in the Matrix, but I want my food to be tasty as well as my kid's food. White bread hasn't kill anyone, alright? Now kindly piss off, you freedom hater.
clearly provides a superior nutritional experience for the young people of this great nation, which our troops fight so bravely to defend. it's science. you can't argue with science.
-sincerely, the orange juice growers group of greater floridia
please provide a kid friendly alt for baked lays that is readily available at a normal supermarket for around the same cost.
All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
Prisons have better food then some schools and prisons have a store where you can buy pop and candy as well.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2012/02/01/prison-food-is-better-than-japanese-school-lunches
http://www.cari-fit.com/2011/06/school-lunches-worse-than-prison-food/
White bread is tasteless, textureless goo; I am all for food to taste good, but whole wheat bread (with extra grains such as flax and whatnot added for texture and taste, as well as nutritional value) is far ahead of white bread. Whenever given the chance, I pick whole wheat over white bread, and am very happy with that choice.
The mother voluntarily enrolled in a program to give her kid extra food, since she was unable to provide full meals every day. She received a note from the school that she may be charged for such extra portions in the future, but not a single parent has been charged to date.
So please, enlighten us as to how this is "the nanny state gone mad", and not just a case of morons being fooled into thinking that a mole hill is a mountain?
Check out other great stories with the nottrue tag: http://slashdot.org/tag/nottrue
My favorite is "Michigan Teen Creates Fusion Device."
"From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
Apple juice is terrible for you. It's just flavored sugar water. See for yourself. The fact that it comes from a fruit doesn't automagically make it healthy.
Lays is NOT 'meal' or healthy food.
It is a 'snack'!!!! Something you eat and you KNOW is not healthy....
Even a simple small cooked potatoes are better and cost effective...
But hey....
Say no to little johnny is hard...
Fight with little johnny or appease and go along...
There is a price in each decision...
From the article:
The Division of Child Development and Early Education at the Department of Health and Human Services requires all lunches served in pre-kindergarten programs — including in-home day care centers — to meet USDA guidelines. That means lunches must consist of one serving of meat, one serving of milk, one serving of grain, and two servings of fruit or vegetables, even if the lunches are brought from home
Sandwhich was turkey and cheese and was made of bread, so that's the meat, the dairy and the grain, and the banana covers the "fruit or vegetables". A reasonable quantity of potato chips isn't unhealthy, and neither is apple juice. Also, the alternate meal that the girl was given apparently consisted of chicken nuggets.
The USDA requirements are a bit of a joke anyway. They're not really based on particularly good dietary science, they mostly conform to politics rather than real nutritional standards. Meat, vegetables and fruit sure, but dairy and grains? They're not necessarily bad for you, but they're also not requirements. Calcium is important, but you can get it in other ways than dairy, and you can certainly get better sugars, proteins and fats from other sources once you're no longer an infant. Pretty much anything you could get from "grains" (which covers a range of things that are mostly nutritionally just carbohydrates) you can get from a larger vegetable serving.
There are certainly meals that can be put together that aren't healthy, but you probably have to put a lot of effort into doing worse than the typical school lunch in the first place. If the mother in the story had sent her child to school with a big cube of liver, a raw brussels sprout and a bottle of beet juice it would have been a lot healthier than the USDA requirements or the school lunch. Her child would probably beg to be taken away by social services, but the meal would be healthy.
The article is a lie. The kid did not have her lunch confiscated. She was given extra food on top of it, because her mother had voluntarily enrolled in a special program. The girl, being four years old, was simply confused and thought she wasn't supposed to eat the food she brought from home.
Apple juice is arguably useless (it's just sugared water with apple taste). Banana is like a potato, but with sweeter taste and more potassium methinks. It all gets digested down to simple sugars, so feel free to eat whichever suits your taste the best, but nutritionally there is zilch of difference IIRC. A sandwich and chips may be enough for one meal, I'd think...
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
It's about as un-healthy (or healthy, as it may be) as eating the equivalent amount of sugar and washing it down with water. I'd take the water without the sugar, please.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
I was interested when I read this story elsewhere, but what is it doing on Slashdot? Our school lunch experiences are more along these lines. That or getting our lunch money stolen by brawnier members of the student body.
"The Greens lynched a hacker in Chicago. Last month, but I think the body's still hanging from the old Water Tower."
As opposed too?
Milk? Lactose intolerant? High fructose laden shit that is everywhere? Vegetable juice blends? Water?
Since when is natural apple juice not healthy for a developing child in moderation?
Okay... I know she's only 5, and someone with such little life experience is probably not going to be devious enough to outsmart an adult... but just think about it for a moment. The school claims no knowledge of the incident. Really, if the school wants to cover its butt, they should give the child a receipt or something that explicitly acknowledges that the child's lunch was inspected and it did not satisfy their criteria... with a verifiable paper trail, the school really couldn't claim no knowledge of the incident
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I do white bread occasionally in the bread machine and to say that it's tasteless, textureless goo is being disingenuous. If you buy what passes for bread in a plastic bag in a grocery store (usually costs around $1.0 to $1.5), then of course it's crap, but that doesn't mean it's good white bread. Go to a french bakery and buy some white bread, and tell me it's tasteless or textureless. Haha.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Poor Kids: Go to a private school their voucher 100% covers. That's all their parents can afford.
Middle Class Kid: Go to a private school their voucher 75% covers. They want their children to get a good education, so they chip in a bit extra.
Rich Kid: Go to a private school their voucher
It's a way to legally segregate schools by socio-economic status. Not cool.
BMI is meaningless for individuals. It's for statistical studies on populations, when better data than just height and weight isn't available, but for some reason has become popular among many people, including health care professionals. It uses only height and weight as inputs, so it clearly can only give meaningful results in extreme cases. My first introduction the BMI was when I was a kid and my father mentioned that he'd been told (I think it was by a doctor) that his BMI put him into the obese range. This was quite funny because my father was a professional rugby player when he was younger and stayed in shape. People with clearly visible abdominal muscles, no love handles or other visible fat, etc. are obviously not obese. Real professionals use calipers, or other legitimate measurements for individuals and leave gross approximations like BMI to population statistics and then only if better data isn't available.
Yeah, moderation is okay. I still think that kids should get in the habit of drinking water with a meal. Not that I think the school should be enforcing what's health.
The lunch contained (what passes for ) two fruit portions. (A banana and an apple juice) A grain portion (The bread) A vegetable portion (OK potato crisps are possibly pushing the envelope, but are vegetables all the same ) and a protein portion. (Turkey)
This lunch met the criteria of a "Healthy lunch" Chicken nuggets (on their own) only tick 2 boxes. (grain and protein)
Fail by some bureaucrat. Not fail by parent who seemed to provide a fairly sane lunch.
A sig is placed here
To display how futile
English Haiku is
Developing cognitive abilities in a young child can involve eating a lot of fats that you probably consider unhealthy and would deny to a child on a knee-jerk response.
Dude, she wasn't forced to eat anything. She was offered something else and took it. They may have not even known she had a home lunch with her. 4-year-olds aren't exactly the most forthcoming or entirely aware people in the world.
As for the political aspect, even if the lunch lady whacked her over the head with a yard stick and then force fed the girl cow shit, how the hell is it Obama's fault? What's next, Obama is to blame for all euthanized kittens?
Keep your kid at home and feed her whatever you want.
Totally agreed.
That is one reason we should put REAL science for REAL benefits for the society...
I am not Obama fanboy or other commie thing.
But the americans should worth more than just being 'consumers' and occasional voters.
We should demand MORE Healthy vegetables, MORE fiber, MORE quality.
We already pay that on taxes, but we are not receiving the goods..
The banana is to keep the kid from dying of colon cancer.
Are they in potato chips?
Stop.. you are only embarrassing yourself..
Did you read the article?
It's based on the word of the four year old.
The "note" in question was a general guideline announcement, not a bill for that day's lunch.
All we know for sure is that (1) the kid didn't eat the provided lunch, (2) the kid did have the McNuggets and (3) the kid said she had the horrible burden of having the McNuggets because the school made her.
Hmmmm.
Check your premises.
Since always. Apple juice is just flavored sugar water. Tons of empty calories with no nutritional benefit to speak of. You're much better off drinking plain water, or flavored water (e.g. Vitamin Water, Mio), or iced tea, or even diet soda.
Obviously, anything is fine "in moderation", but what makes you think this kid was drinking it in moderation?
In Soviet Pre-K, lunch sends you home!
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
The nanny state has gone mad and the enforcers have lost their minds due to abusive power....
Were it only so simple. I'd say lost their mind due to money coming from business interests. This infographic shows that the federal spending is even more messed up than the FDA guidelines: 78% of subsidies to meat and dairy, 0.3% to fruits and vegetables.
I blame big business buying government, not just big government acting alone. Curing this problem will take more than pruning back overreaching government regulations, it will require neutering a powerful meat and dairy industry, reclaiming various regulatory agencies, and coming up with effective ways of stopping special interests from putting junk food in cafeterias.
Sounds like they gave her an additional lunch and told her that her mother didn't pack something healthy enough. That they might have called it a supplement doesn't change the fact that it was functionally a replacement. That would be reasonable if the USDA provided objectively good nutritional standards, but instead we have an organization which has been legally required to recognize the tomato sauce on pizza as a serving of a vegetable having their standards used to second-guess a good wholesome lunch sent by the parent.
My suspicion is that this is a way for the school to bring in additional revenue. If I were the parent, I would send the school a letter saying that you had not agreed to the transaction and that you will not pay it. If they send it to collections you send a letter of dispute. If they persist, threaten to organize a class action law suit.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
And that point is that is it really the place of government to decide these things? You may argue that it's in the interest of public health, but when we start rationalizing everything government does with "the greater good" argument then we are no longer free.
I just scrolled down to the comments to see what kind of names they had.
Wow. No, really. Wow. That's some serious tea in those bags. We're talking Earl Grey, hot, with honey and lemon.
[End Of Line]
Well played sir.
This sig is not paradoxical or ironic.
Yes. The brain is about two thirds fat. Monounsaturated fats and polyunsaturated facts contribute heavily to brain development. A typical serving of Lays contains 2.5 grams of polyunsaturated fat and 5 grams of monounsaturated fat and 0 grams of trans fats and 1 gram of saturated fat. Now, you may get more carbohydrate and sodium than you should from eating too much in the way of chips, but they're not really inherently unhealthy in and of themselves. The salt and most of the fat are, in fact, necessary nutrients, they're just a problem if they're overdone. For a developing child, a high natural fat diet is usually not a bad thing as long as it doesn't lead to bad habits when they get older.
And since when are mechanically separated chicken ("nuggets") healthy?
Which is different from the current system of:
Poor Kids: Go to the public schools servicing the poorer areas they live in.
Middle Class Kids: Go to the public schools servicing the not so poor areas they live in.
Rich Kids: Go to a private school, unless the local public school happens to be very good in which case they might slum it with the middle class kids.
Oh, absolutely. The health of the agricultural economy is their over-riding concern. Not that they don't have nutritionists who may give good recommendations, but they have another agenda and it influences their recommendations. When those recommendations end up being enforced as the _only_ healthy option, there's a problem.
You can't be serious?
Apple juice is *not* just flavored sugar water. Keep in mind I said natural apple juice. I know that natural apple juice has benefits, but I will just quote Wikipedia here.
Vitamin C is sometimes added by fortification, because content is variable,[2] and much of that is lost in processing.[citation needed] Other vitamin concentrations are low, but apple juice does contain various mineral nutrients, including boron, which may promote healthy bones.[3] Apple juice has a significant concentration of natural phenols of low molecular weight (including chlorogenic acid, flavan-3-ols, and flavonols) and procyanidins[4] that may protect from diseases associated with aging due to the antioxidant effects which help reduce the likelihood of developing cancer and Alzheimer's disease.[5] Research suggests that apple juice increases acetylcholine in the brain, possibly resulting in improved memory.
Now there can be a lot of sugar (which Wikipedia cautions as well), especially with low quality juice that has high fructose corn syrup added to it. However, natural apple juice, which you *can* get at a grocery store is sold in small servings and the sugars found it in are raw and not refined.
Comparing natural apple juice to soda is misleading. Vitamin Water is a poor comparison since its nutritional benefits are dubious at best.
Iced tea can contain a lot of caffeine, and children especially, seem to prefer the sweetened kind which can be more detrimental than the apple juice over time. Plain unsweetened green tea can be good but for developing children I would stay away from caffeine.
Diet sodas contain all sorts of artificial sweeteners and chemicals that have studies going back and forth about how healthy they are. Unless it is Stevia, I stay away from all sweeteners. Stevia has the added benefit of not raising your blood sugar. That is important because there are some studies which suggest high fructose corn syrup can be a factor in developing diabetes. Monitoring blood sugar levels and/or being careful about the types of sugars and carbs you ingest is a wise thing to do.
Remember, this is for children in small amounts. I have natural apple juice only occasionally, and that goes for any type of fruit drinks. Water and green tea are my mainstays.
In any case, you are completely off base about natural apple juice. Much of the alternatives you mentioned are comparable to the worst apple juices on market.
Too bad this is bullshit: http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2012/02/15/a-north-carolina-non-troversy/
Sorry bro....
You are telling that AFTER they FRY this oil is 'necessary' for the brain?
Even cooked the oil is not anymore the same oil.
Biochemicals 101...
Serious... You may do not like nanny state and value freedom as even for 'unhealthy' decision.
I support you.
But do not try convince the kids need potato chips to fuel the need for fat in brain.
Serious...from all sources they can get (milk, meat, eggs,etc) they will choose potato chips...
Serious.. Is ok to loose an argument..
And one present for you :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8697046
I submitted the debunking of this "story" to be a slashdot article. While we can't make this miserable piece go away, we can vote for the correction to go to the front page. Go to slashdot.org/recent and vote it up. Slashdot editors won't take responsibility for a crappy article posted, but we can use the system to get them to pay attention to a correction.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
please provide a kid friendly alt for baked lays that is readily available at a normal supermarket for around the same cost.
Ugh, the baked chips are the worst; read the ingredients list. Regular chips are just potato, oil, and salt.
Obviously, anything is fine "in moderation", but what makes you think this kid was drinking it in moderation?
Which is more likely: The kid's lunch includes a standard 4, 6, or 8oz juice box of Apple Juice, or a 64oz jug of the stuff that probably is about 1/3rd her height?
For poor people tap water is often less healthy simply due to crappy/old plumbing, and there *is* nutritional value in apple juice since nowadays they add in vitamins and calcium, making it more value than bottled water. You could also say milk would work, but it could easily spoil if stored carelessly.
Please pontificate about apple juice elsewhere. There are many evils in this world, but Mott's isn't one of them.
This is the second post about how milk is ~unnecessary~. Some people will argue so is meat. Hell, so is fish, and just about anything else. I'm truly curious as to why milk is targeted? Will kids be better off drinking kool-aid? Tang? Orange Juice? coffee? Dr Pepper?
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
I just read through all the comments scored 3 or higher. Several of you said, sometimes in exactly these words, "Nothing to see here, move along."
Shame on you!
You are prepared to dismiss this story as being lies made up by a 4-year-old, or lies made up by crazy right-wing biased news sources? You can't be bothered to research it a little bit?
Put the words "West Hoke Elementary School" into Google News. Ignore Fox et. al. and look for local sources. Oh wow, looks like Google has started categorizing the links, and there is a link labelled "Local:" right near the top:
http://www.wcti12.com/news/30472198/detail.html
Or, if you can disdainfully read that horribly biased right-wing nutty web site The Blaze for a little bit, you can find their own link to the local newspaper story on the incident:
http://www.carolinajournal.com/exclusives/homemade-lunch-replaced-with-cafeteria-nuggets.html
So unless you are now going to tell me that the local news outlets are part of a vast right-wing conspiracy, I think it's clear there is indeed something to see here.
Now it does look like there is some backpedaling going on. This has embarrassed the authorities and they are downplaying it. But here are the facts as I understand them:
Now, as it happens, I heard the mother being interviewed on the radio yesterday. Her comment was that she can't afford to buy vegetables that won't be eaten and will be thrown away, and she can't afford to have the school charging her extra if the school doesn't like a lunch brought by the child.
She was also furious that the state officials implied that she is doing a poor job of looking after her child, and extra furious that they are confusing her 4-year-old daughter into thinking she packed bad food: "You're telling a 4-year-old. 'Oh, your lunch isn't right,' and she's thinking there's something wrong with her food."
Tell me, honestly. If you saw a news story on the Huffington Post that some right-wing outrage had been perpetrated in Alabama or something (I don't know, maybe paddling a child for not reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or something) would you immediately assume it was all lies because Huffington Post is a biased left-wing site? "Nothing to see here, move along"?
Don't blindly accept or blindly reject any news based on where you saw it. It has never been easier to check for alternative sources to corroborate a news story.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Get the average kid to drink water, let alone constantly. You won't do it! Apparently from some other post, milk should be thought twice about as well. What do you expect these kids to drink that isn't seen as OMGPOISONRUNNNN!!!!11
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
The real question is why any school continues to serve things like chicken nuggets (which are not exactly health food) and why school districts have resisted efforts to make school lunches healthier...
I used to weight 420 lbs. I had type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, severe sleep apnea (which could have literally killed me dead any night I forgot the CPAP), asthma, high cholesterol, IBS, and was diagnosed with type 2 bipolar disorder. I now weigh 194, have "the best cholesterol numbers [my doctor] has seen in a long time", energy to exercise, no breathing problems, I only poop when I want to now, and most of all I'm happy and stable without medication.
How did I do it, you ask? I realized that the USDA's purpose is to promote American grain-based agriculture (everything but corn, soybeans, and to a lesser degree wheat are considered "specialty crops") and not the health of Americans, and I quit following their stupid, lame, ineffective food pyramid. I save almost $10,000 in medications alone -- forget about all the other medical costs -- and I LOVE my tasty home-made bacon. That nasty corn, and wheat, and high-fructose-corn-syrup, and soybeans? Keep 'em the hell away from ME! I'd rather SMOKE than eat a school lunch -- it's better for me.
Want to lose weight? Grass-fed meats, vegetables (corn is not a vegetable -- except in school lunches!), fruit in moderation as a "treat". No added sugars of any kind. No wheat, corn, or god-help-us-soybeans-that-you-can't-even-eat-without-fermenting-them-because-they're-literally-inevitable-best-suited-for-feeding-pigs, ever.
Since the government started setting "preventative" nutritional guidelines, based on the then-unproven "low fat" theory from Dr. Ancel Keys, in 1977, have Americans gotten thinner or fatter? When the USDA publicly acknowledges that there is no "one true diet" for all humans, regardless of their ethnic background (and how recently that area developed agriculture) I MIGHT listen to them again. Until then, I think it would be insane to listen to them -- insanity being doing the same thing again and again and somehow expecting a different result.
It annoys me that the schools keep trying to tell my children that a low-fat diet is good for them. I can't imagine what I'd do if they started trying to force their hog-feed down my children's throats, but it would not be pretty.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
Otherwise, all it is is yet another massive tax break for the rich.
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
you are yet another kool-aid drinker (Ghana style).
Do you, um, mean Guyana style?
Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
My kid drinks water all that time. I drank water as a kid all the time. Accepting "they won't drink it" as an excuse is just bad parenting.
It IS healthy if it comes DIRECTLY from a fruit, although I'll concede that in juice form it's easy to consume too much of it.
Yes, natural apple juice contains sugars, but these are natural sugars and are healthy (in healthy amounts). Remember 'sugar' is a specific type of a hydro-carbon chain, there are a large number of different sugars. Processed table sugar is unhealthy in any amount.
If the juice comes from a fruit, is concentrated, then diluted, then has preservaties, processed sugar and other bits added, THEN it's unhealthy.
Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!
My kids drink water just fine. In fact, it's the main beverage they drink. Occasionally, they drink milk (mostly plain, rarely chocolate milk) or juice. They never drink soda. There's nothing about water that kids intrinsically reject. It's all how you raise them and what you drink. (If you're drinking only soda and then give them water, chances are they won't drink it.)
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
First off I said that children should be drinking water. I don't think children should get into the habit of only drinking liquids with flavor. So yeah that means no juice, tea, milk, or soda.
Second of all, whether it's refined or raw sugar it's still a mixture of glucose and fructose. In the case of apple juice it's lost all of the fiber that is present in the solid apple.
The thing about milk is that it's a nutritional formulation specifically intended by nature for infants. Production of milk for infants is pretty much _the_ defining characteristic of mammals. We get our name from the milk producing organs, after all. However, virtually all mammals lose the ability to properly digest some of the principal components of milk as they age. This might actually be an evolutionary feedback effect to wean young and prevent females from being stuck nursing for their entire lives. In any case, most mammals, when they're no longer in early development, are lactose intolerant and drinking milk will cause them distress even if they enjoy it when they're actually drinking it. The discomfort afterwards isn't enough to stop most cats from drinking milk of course, but they're domesticated animals anyway, so their tolerance may be higher than many other mammals. Anyway, humans are pretty exceptional in our tolerance for the stuff, but that's almost certainly an acquired trait, and even among humans, lactose intolerance tends to appear as we age. Also, it's not universal across all humans, lactose intolerance is a lot higher among east Asian populations at much younger ages than most Europeans.
So, milk, or a very good substitute (mother's milk is always preferable when possible for reasons beyond just nutrition) is necessary for infants because that's what it's designed for. It's not necessary for older children or for adults. It contains helpful nutrients, but you can get them in plenty of other ways.
That said, milk and dairy products are delicious. I like all kinds of cheeses and yogurts and ice creams, etc. I'll keep on enjoying them for as long as I can. I just don't insist on them as a necessary part of a diet, because they're not.
As for what kids will be better off drinking. Water works for me. Pretty much all I drink is either water or milk (whole with or without chocolate). Beyond that, grape juice isn't too bad if it has to be sweet to get them to stay hydrated. Also, as much as people complain about sweetened drinks, sodium-glucose transport means that sweetened drinks with a touch of salt hydrate best. As long as they're flavored with dextrose (which is just glucose) or sucrose (breaks down into dextrose and fructose) but preferably not with just fructose. If a drink can be used as a way to get vitamins into a kid that won't eat fruits or vegatables or anything else with vitamins, then the benefits could outweigh the negatives.
voucher schools look good because they do not have to accept all comers equally and do not have to spend on special education
frankly the only way to get control of school spending is to cut way back on special requirements, if a child needs a full time aide or two to eventually learn by 12th grade how to pick their nose and sort forks from spoons, the schools should not be providing what amounts to insanely expensive retard day care.
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
The link you provided was about issues with carbohydrates, not fats. I did say that the potato chips provide more carbohydrates (as well as salt) than are probably needed, we're not in disagreement there. But, in moderation, it's not particularly harmful. The effect noted in that abstract also has little to do with cognitive development.
As for "Biochemicals 101", you're right that after exposure to certain chemical conditions and/or heat the fats can be altered. At that point, they're typically referred to as trans-fats. Plenty of food preparation leaves the oil used for cooking unaltered. The Lays I gave the nutritional information for list 0 grams of trans-fats per serving.
There are certainly other sources for those fats. I just cringe every time I see a parent going out of their way to restrict fat in a very young child's diet because they have a knee-jerk reaction that fat is bad. The missing fat almost always gets replaced in the diet by more carbohydrates. Given that, potato chips don't really seem that bad.
Well, to maintain a private school more expensive, they'd have to show that it produces better education. So they would do what expensive private universities do with poor kids: let them in based on talent and only let the very rich kids with a slightly lesser talent in. Basically, it doesn't produce segregation. Money in this case only acts as a tie breaker in the acceptance decisions.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
The thing about grains is that it's they evolved specifically to grow into plants.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
Sad to see Glenn Beck's site regurgitated here as if it had any merit to reality.
No, Apple Juice is juice from apples, sometimes concentrated then diluted with water. Does the US really allow flavored sugar water to be sold as Apple Juice?
Wasn't it healthy when it was in the apple?
Ken
WTF should I care?
Isn't this site supposed to be about geek-tech news?
Provide me a story of some of those radio controlled quad-chopper powered by chicken nuggets
instead of this sad little earth-quake in the cafeteria of a young kid school.
Damn they didn't even take the effort to write an app to deal with these food harassment.
Why are you all feeding the machine? Why can't we trust that the local people in that area will take care of the situation? If you want to be outraged over nonsense go to your own townhall meetings. Instead of offering up what you would do, why not spend that time being a part of the community and actually do it?
And you, Slashdot. The only way this could be construed as news for nerds is if there was a statistician whose specialty is school lunch programs, and even only then as a humorous aberration. If the day is this slow at least go for some speculative articles vaguely resembling something techy. Most other sites just made stuff up about the upcoming Android 5.0, at least show some effort.
Sometimes, life itself is sarcasm...
The Federal Government would never interfere with school lunches. That's totally between a parent and her child. It's all 1-percenter propaganda!
And North Carolina? Why should we even believe such a place exists? These capitalist imperialists will stop at nothing to undermine the People's trust in the Revolution.
Do not listen to them. Be strong!
Ok. That's pretty much a given... I may have missed the point.
At least more healthy than Coca Cola.
or cyanide.
A sandwich and chips may be enough for one meal, I'd think...
Seriously ? Nobody thinks chips is a bad thing to put in a school lunch?
As a parent I'd consider both chips and fruit-juice as treats for odd occasions. My preschool discourages both, though I admit they can be a little P.C. on occasion.
I do sympathise with the difficulty of getting some kids to eat vegetables unsupervised, but that does not mean you need to give them junk food.
"only in America..."
I do agree 100% with you. And agree against this No- Fat culture that only make people more fatter after.
But take care... When in the nutritional information says 0 grams of trans fats usually it means:
The levels of trans fat are so minimal that we may say they are 0.
This is one reason they use tiny servings in the nutritional information..
But if you get the whole bag it is another story, the trans fat is there... but hidden or zero on a very small serving..
(another is to make the calories not so aberrant)
I do perceive you want the best for the society and I think we should always demand the BEST, and high quality.
We are paying taxes for that and I will not settle for 'chicken nuggets' when I am paying for a real meal. (we are paying for that)
Cheers :)
No, we don't need to eat wheat (in fact, it's not universal across all humans considering gluten intolerance) but it happens to be what fills the given role in our diet (culturally speaking), milk is no different. And the nutritional requirements of other mammals as a group (cats will not survive on wheat alone, humans might) is not really relevant.
Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
When it was an apple it had 13g of sugar and 3g of fiber. When it gets turned into juice it has twice the sugar and a sixth of the fiber. So yes it was healthier when it was in the apple.
Read the followup stories. The original story is full of inaccuracies and hysteria. There is no nanny state involved here. What the lunch missed apparently was some milk; likely story being that the child was asked to get some milk (for free) and got confused; the mother saw a note about the lunch program that hinted some food may need to be paid for, and the mother freaked out. No federal lunch box inspectors, no state government watching over every student, just a voluntary opt-in program restricted to poor pre-school students only.
You don't hear much about malnutrition these days. In the US at least scruvy and beri beri are rare while everyone is getting larger and larger. Adding vitamins to juice seems to be ignoring these facts.
It was on the internet, it must be true!
Yes the "real story" is totally different from the sensationalist piece above, but I'm still glad to learn most people object to having "Government Inspectors" go through the kids lunch boxes to make sure it meets "regulations".
Now, how about Government Inspectors going through your Internet activity, making sure you're not visiting the "wrong" sites, downloading "objectional materials", engage in "subversive activities" or, God forbid, commit copyright infringement? Hello, anyone still there? I guess we lost most of the politicians in the audience
When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
As far as nature "intending" things, that was just me anthropomorphising nature for the purpose of illustration. Obviously nature doesn't have an actual intent. The reason milk exists is because it serves a need and that need, circularly, exists because of the existence of milk. The point is that milk has a role and that role is in infant development and beyond that role, milk is actually contra-indicated. Possibly simply due to a supply problem and, since we solved that supply problem by domesticating other mammals, we've been adapting to make use of milk, but we're not 100% there as a species.
I agree with you that wheat and other grains fill a role in a cultural diet, and that role is reflected in the USDA recommendations (and the products and lobbying of US agribusiness). The point I was making is that's no reason to require them as part of school lunches if the goal is really to provide good nutrition to children. Other goals, such as providing profits and stability for farming interests are served by that approach. Milk is no different as well, and there's a big dairy lobby to go along with that. Whatever foodgroup/pyramid/whatever method the USDA is putting forward at the moment is not the be all and end all of nutrition, and you clearly agree with that, so I'm still not sure what your point is. Now, the USDA guidelines might have the benefit of being simple for some school food inspector to follow by means of a simple mental checklist, but that's hardly proper nutritional science. It's a lowest common denominator approach. It might improve some kids school lunches, but it's going to shortchange other kids especially when you consider that nutrition for children isn't just about what they _should_ eat, but what you can actually get them to eat.
As for the nutritional requirements of other mammals and cats specifically, I brought those up because I was specifically asked:
This is the second post about how milk is ~unnecessary~. Some people will argue so is meat. Hell, so is fish, and just about anything else. I'm truly curious as to why milk is targeted?
so an explanation of the role milk actually plays for mammals seemed in order. Cats came up because they're a mammal that pretty much everyone knows of that love milk, even when they're older, but we're all being told now not to give adult cats milk for their health and comfort. It seemed a good example that someone might grasp even if they didn't see why milk isn't a necessary nutrient for humans.
In the end, humans are omnivores and we can eat all kinds of things. We lack a few omnivore traits that could be really useful, like the ability to make our own vitamin C, but we're still capable of living a long time, perhaps even full lifetimes on a very limited diet (even just corn if it's nixtamalized ) or wheat as you point out (especially if we're eating it fresh and whole as well as prepared). We're almost always far better off on a varied diet including all kinds of things. We can do without meat, but need to make sure we get lots of other stuff to compensate in order to be maximize nutritional health. A vegan diet would be easier if our crops weren't grown nutritionally deprived themselves. Of course, one of the reasons for that is that crops grown with more natural processes are full of nutrients they've absorbed from decaying animal matter in the soil. Given all of that, the grossly over-simplified USDA guidelines are more like shackles to achieving good nutrition than a path towards achieving it.
Oh I know there are always going to be some trans-fats. Many foods have both positives and negatives. Some nightmare food products have pretty much zero nutritional downsides. Remember Olestra? The whole point was that it didn't get absorbed by the body, just sat in the digestive tract. The stuff was terrible for you though because of all the other things it blocked from passing through the intestinal wall and just the physical nature of this fat slurry sitting in your guts. Then there's the wonderful sugar alcohols like xylitol. Completely indigestible, but terrible for you. Makes me glad I don't chew gum because just try finding a chewing gum that doesn't contain it. My sister quit smoking and transitioned from nicotine gum to regular gum and discovered all about the unpleasant side effects. Some really horrible things are produced for us to put in our bodies often with the excuse that they're not harmful every once in a while, then people end up consuming them nearly every single day. It's scary.
Varied nutrition meeting all the requirements and not overdoing it on things like carbohydrates and salts seems to be the best way to go. There isn't one exact set of nutritional guidelines that works for everyone although there are some best practices to follow. If parents are packing a slim jim and a bag of candy for lunch every day, I see cause for concern. The lunch described in the article does not seem to be an egregious case of child abuse from my point of view.
A vegetable of some sort. If only mom had slathered tomato flavored high-fructose corn syrup (ketchup) on everything it would have passed inspection. Silly mom! When will parents ever learn?
http://www.acetonestudio.com
Just read the comments in this thread, for any proof you might need. Here we have a Glenn Beck story, sourced from a fake newspaper that tries to look like a real one. Even when pointed out over and over again, they basically stick their fingers in their ears and yell "LALALA" as loud as they can. I'm starting to agree with Bill Maher. The right-wing has their own little bubble that contains their reality, and they don't really care if what they're saying is true, or makes any sense.
It didn't have enough vegetable portions... the slice of pizza was missing
What are the sanitation rules for the inspectors.
One pair of gloves is not going to do it. What if the ....
food in lunch box A was contaminated by Mom-A.
then the inspector touches Lunch box B C D E
and then box-I which has influenza contamination by
dad-I who made a super lunch but sneezed in his
own home.
Next time you fly and the TSA inspects your kit.
Are the gloves that they push your tooth brush to
one side with clean (not the last time I was inspected).
Are the TSA inspectors required to take food and health
handler training and screening. Are they screened and
inoculated for TB, HEP-A, HEP-B etc.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
It's a shit lunch loaded with refined carbohydrates, salt and sugar. But has a banana.
The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
All of these are unnecessary if you put the effort into designing a good diet around it.
Milk is problematic for a number of reasons though. These include:
Lactose intolerance varies substantially by ethnic group. Mongolians are almost never intolerant, nor are Scandinavians. On the other hand Italians and Chinese are. Requiring that kids drink milk is probably not a good thing in an ethnically diverse culture.
Also there are many groups which have prohibitions about milk. Jews, for example, if they keep kosher, are supposed to aggressively separate milk and dairy. These are not to be eaten in the same meal. They are not to be prepared using or served on the same utensils..... Insisting that children drink milk is in many cases very culturally insensitive too.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Not much for spoilage there, but even so you're probably pushing your luck with turkey. As I am recovering from food poisoning myself at the moment, this topic is very much on my mind. Not to mention a lot of my bathroom floor...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
...or potato chips for that matter!?
please provide a kid friendly alt for baked lays that is readily available at a normal supermarket for around the same cost
Easy. I can even do it better. I can provide an alternative that is FREE, available ANYWHERE and which is significantly healthier than baked lays. One full serving of nothing at all. Chips have no place in a kids meal. They are extremely unhealthy.
A reasonable quantity of potato chips isn't unhealthy
I totally agree, a reasonable quantity of baked chips is not unhealthy. The reasonable quantity being zero.
The same think happened to me at high school. The teacher could provide no evidence whatsoever that can of nut-brown ale was unhealthy.
First, some public schools are the same way. There are science magnets that only accept bright kids and are public.
Second, private and voucher schools have the best special needs education in the world. Their care far surpasses anything you'll find in public school. They also have the best schools for troubled children that have obedience issues.
You're addicted to force. Just because a school isn't forced to take certain kids doesn't mean that there won't be a private school that will take them. Maybe the troubled child won't get into the school that is designed around high achieving children. Maybe instead he'll get into a school meant for troubled children. And is that bad? No... they're getting exactly what they need rather then trying to jam everyone into a one size fits all system that is failing millions.
The existing system is a disgrace and vouchers could save the kids.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
that's already happening...
Think only rich kids go to private schools?
All you're doing is screwing poor kids by trapping them in a failed system. You're giving them no way out and you're not holding their schools accountable for failure.
Vouchers would give you both. Will the rich kids go to a nicer school? Maybe. They also might go to the same school only the rich family gave an endowment so all the kids enjoy a nicer education.
Don't think that can happen? There are a lot of schools back east that are private and are in small towns. The local town kids can't afford to pay for the private school. So what they do is charge out of town people a typical private school price and they ask the town to subsidize locals at a rate that public school typically pays. It works fine.
All the problems you have with it have been tested in the real world and it works... BETTER then the pure public system.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Also, giving a child a double portion of food pretty much guarantees that child will be eating a less balanced lunch, because she'll only eat the favourite bits. So a double portion of meat and no vegetables, for example.
Not that that's technically bad. As long as there's nothing actively unhealthy in it (nuggets might apply), the school lunch is only a small part of the child's diet. No veggies at school is not a problem as long as it gets veggies for dinner.
Anonymous mom makes anonymous complaint about unidentified gub'mint worker. Sounds legit.
Eh? In the UK at least apple juice is the fluid you get when you squeeze an apple. It's considered healthy. Sure, you can add apple flavouring and sugar to water, and that's not healthy, but it's not apple juice either, it's an apple flavoured soft drink. It's like saying milk isn't healthy because you drink Krusty-Partially-Gelatinated-Non-Dairy-Gum-Based-Beverage.
Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
What was this mom thinking? The government says you have to have vegetables for it to be a healthy lunch.
She'll have to include a slice of pizza the next time to cover the vegetables requirement.
(Yes, the US government has decided that pizza is a vegetable!)
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
At first I thought you were making a rediculous assumption, but when I checked the linked page I understood why. According to the nutritional value listing this product has 0% fibers, while apples are supposed to be full of fibers. That 'apple juice' you're talking about must be the kind of industrial produce you buy at supermarkets, right? The kind that looks like piss... that's horrible indeed. As professor Robert H. Lustig explains in this video, sugars without fibers are destabilising your metabolism, and thus mildly poisonous.
My brother has a small scale apple farm, and makes juice with a rented mobile juice press. In these presses very little of the fruit gets wasted. You can produce about 80 liters of juice with 100 kilos of apples. The end product looks and tastes more like a fruit smoothie, and surely fits a healthy diet. I'd even recommend it for athletes as an alternative to sports drinks (although not on it's own, take some salty food and plain water too).
Terrible for me? Yes, it might be, I don't run around like a 4 year old. But since 4 year olds DO, it's not a problem. A healthy diet for an adult is not a proper diet for a young child and vice versa.
Can you PLEASE start updating the summaries when it turns out they're just flat-out WRONG? This is happening more and more lately. It's not even a case of bias or interepretation--sometimes stories are just factually incorrect (and easily proven as such) yet they sit on the front page looking as true as can be, and you've got to wade through a bunch of comments to find out that the source, the submitter, or the editor were just fucking retarded.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Moreover, the smoke screen about 'low income program' and 'opt-in' is irrelevant. The mother was obviously able to send the kid in with a decent lunch ( better than I usually took to school ), and at no time was she asked to 'opt-in' on this program, the school had to. The mother repeatedly asked the school not to intervene. Why was it necessary to overrule her?
It's a DAY CARE program. All of the rest is state meddling. Sure it's subsidized, the mom would be paying for it with her tax dollars even if her kids wasn't enrolled. She was lucky enough to get access to cheap day care, that doesn't mean she should expect the government to rummage through the lunch and materials prepared. Hell, if the school said they were looking for drugs /. would immediately detect the Fourth Amendment violation this 'program' courts.
The fundamental line from the Carolina Journal story: "There are no clear restrictions about what additional items - like potato chips - can be included in preschoolers' lunch boxes." Where the hell does the government come off 'prohibiting' what a parent sends in. If Mom thinks a 'coke and a twinkie' is okay, that's her damned business. I would disagree, but it's supposed to be a free country not a nanny state.
#-#
Ad Astra Per Aspera
A rough road leads to the stars
I wanted to inform you that the fact sheet you linked is not about apple juice as apple juice is supposed to be, but after making an account I must have gotten lost because I posted it somewhere else in the discussion... however, here it is: about prof. Lustig on sugar and fibers, and fruit farmers producing their own juices.
That's the problem: just because is natural it doesn't mean it's healthy! I was specifically referring to the fluid you get when you squeeze an apple. It's nutritionally about as useful as drinking Fanta or Sprite -- same amount of calories, except that it got a bit of vitamins in it. That whole "apple juice is healthy" thing is an urban myth. Seriously. You're supposed to eat apples because they have some fiber in it, and that's good for your colon health and whatnot. If you give your kid an apple juice and fight over it you're silly, you may as well give them a can of caffeine-free cola.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Decent chips are potato, grains (cereals) or corn fried in veggie oil. It's neither good nor bad IMHO, as long as you keep your calorie intake in check they are just as good or bad (nutritionally) as, say, a slice of good bread with butter. Except that good bread will give you fiber. But then some cereal chips are rich in fiber too. Of course if you think that the only chips out there are Lays, then you may think there's nothing good about them at all.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
A) The child should *never* be involved in a disupte such as this, only parents and administrators
B) Unless the child is deprived of food (starved) - which involves not the school but other authorities - wtf right does the government have to tell you how you should or should not feed your child?
As long as the trans fats are low, the fat in potato chips isn't really a problem, especially for little children, it's the carbohydrates that are more of a problem. In an already high-energy diet, you're better off getting your energy from other sources. Either way, the potato chips are only a problem if they make up a major part of the diet.
It's front page news in other places. I'm not sure it should be on Slashdot though.
However, I do think backlash triggered by this story is a good thing and serves as a useful message to the class of government employee involved.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
natural sugars and are healthy
Processed table sugar is unhealthy in any amount.
Damn. Stagnated indeed.
Wow... got a source for any of those assertions. Or are you wiggle words enough to prevent a quantatative analysis of your statement...
I'll back up one thing at a time.
Challenge one argument I made. Try to keep it simple. If you make it complex it will require disproportionate effort on my part and I have no interest in that game. I'm not writing a ten page essay for every sentence on your part.
We can go point by point. You can challenge something I said and I'll back it up or admit I've got nothing.
I'm game if you are...
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Thats not how argument works - you don't get to make some rediculous unqualified statement and then weasel out of providing support for it - but because its Friday and I'm up for a rabbit chase, start with this one
Second, private and voucher schools have the best special needs education in the world. Their care far surpasses anything you'll find in public school. They also have the best schools for troubled children that have obedience issues.
Only true in strict essays. In a slashdot thread? Come now. Be reasonable... or you're unreasonable. ;)
That's two statements. I'll provide evidence that the best special needs care is private. I'm actually shocked you're questioning that one. This is going to be easy.
From google...
All private in dallas... at least according to ehow :D
http://www.ehow.com/info_7899398_schools-learning-disabled-dallas-texas.html
schools explicitly for learning disabled kids...
http://privateschool.about.com/od/schoolsneeds1/tp/toplearning.htm
I have to wonder, what would you consider as evidence here? Do you honestly think the federally mandated programs at the public school serviced by teachers with no special training in dealing with such children is going to compete with institutions that are set up from the ground up to address the problem?
You're basically arguing McDonalds is better at making sushi... then a sushi chef. I don't know if there is a study for that either I could quote, but it seems like a hard argument to argue.
The private schools hire specialists and have customized programs.
Another thing that is great about private schools is that they're incredibly diverse. None of them are the same. They're all different. And rather then a weakness that's a strength. Because while ALL public schools seem capable of showing degeneration the private schools have successes and failures. And that's something we can learn from. IF everyone fails that doesn't tell us very much. It just tells us what we're doing isn't working. But if we have successes and failures then clearly we need to stop doing what the failures are doing and do more of what the successes are doing.
Ultimately, I like the voucher system because it gets the government out of education, gives parents more how their kids are taught, makes the parents more active in the child's education, and solves all the silly political battles we've been having over education for years.
If we go full voucher then all the political problems with education are gone. Pick the school you want. Don't like that school? there are five more to take its place. And unlike the existing system where they won't let you leave and will keep bad schools on life support. In the Voucher system bad schools that no one likes die. No life support. Dead. And from the ashes new schools... hopefully wiser then their predecessors.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
i don't give a crap what was in the lunch.....i don't give a crap if they charged anybody for anything. i do give a crap that the food police are even a Real deal. regardless of where(what agency) they come from....... who decided to create these 'food police' i want NAMES.