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iFixit's Kyle Wiens On the War On DIY Electronics
pigrabbitbear writes with an excerpt from an article at Motherboard: "Anyone planning on buying a new iPad should know what they're getting themselves into by now. In recent years, Apple and other hardware manufacturers have made it liquid-crystal clear that they're not fond of the idea that customers can tear open and fix products without the help of licensed repair specialists. Even if it's as easy as ordering a part online and following a few instructions gleaned from a Google search, hardware companies generally seem to prefer we keep the hood closed. It should not be surprising, then, that the latest version of Apple's much-desired tablet has one 'killer' feature that's finally getting the attention it deserves: A design that stops you from getting inside of it."
everyone knows what apple is all about by now.
To my eyes, the headline reads as if this Kyle Wiens is on war against DIY camp, as opposed to being against this "war" on DIY.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
A design that stops you from getting inside of it
Is this the same new iPad where there was a photo story of some guys who make tools for geeks demonstrating their gear by systematically taking one apart, all on-line within about ten seconds of the product launch?
There even seem to be references to this in TFA...
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Even when I was 14 years old, back in the 80's, I knew that Apple's closed system was no good. Yes, at the time, they had better hardware, software, and such, but it wasn't easily upgradeable, not without spending twice more for a part than what you could put in an IBM compatible. And, look what happened, Wintel machines won. More and better innovation came from the hardware manufacturers that had to compete with each other for user's dollars.
Only software suffered because Microsoft had that locked up. Here Apple won the day for a long time because they did have the more creative designers. Now that we have competition in the OS field, we are starting to see better ideas flourish and rise to the top. We are starting to see better designed software interfaces that allow the user to feel at ease with their computing device.
Same rules these days - it's the consumers bucks. If Apple (or anyone) wants to say "you had someone open this who wasn't us - goodbye" that's up to them. And that person can then take it down the road to the guy who's not so fussy.
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
Don't buy anything with a locked bootloader (that can't be unlocked)
Don't buy anything that requires a non-standard data cable, such as micro USB.
Don't buy anything you can't change your own battery in using much more than a screw driver.
My EVO passes the test, so does my netbook and all the Bluetooth (not Logitech proprietary wireless USB) peripherals.
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Thing is, 95% of consumers don't really care about repairing their own electronics, if not more. The remaining handful of people that choose not to buy an iPad because of its inaccessibility re:DIY repairs aren't going to make enough of a difference to make any manufacturer change their ways, even assuming ALL of them refuse to buy iPads.
If you look at it objectively, Apple, or anyone else, is pretty much just giving people what they want. It doesn't seem like this 'killer' feature is designed to keep people from accessing the insides of the iPad; after all, what percentage of iPad 1 owners were tinkering around with the insides of it? An insignificant amount, from the perspective of the company selling millions of the thing.
I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
Rather then complaining about how difficult it is to strip one down and reassemble it.
Even Apple can't tear down and reassemble an iPad 2 or iPad 3. There is no magical service manual for doing so. If a device is found to be defective, it gets replaced. Internally, they get torn down and a lot of parts are recycled- but this procedure is ONE WAY ONLY. These devices were built with the assumption that they would NEVER be opened up.
The reason for this, contrary to iFixit's belief- is not to screw the user over.
The truth is that the tolerances inside these devices is so astoundingly tight, that there simply isn't room for clamps, latches, and screws (which require threaded posts on the other side- this always takes up more space then the screwhead does). In order to produce a device as sturdy as the iPad 2 and iPad 3, they *had* to use industrial adhesive over a large surface area to literally fuse the thing together. Screws wouldn't cut it. Clamps make for a rickety squeaky device when you torque it between two hands. And the iPad 2/iPad 3 chassis isn't like the iPad 1, which was thick and sturdy enough to survive that sort of mechanical abuse by itself (in other words, the iPad 2 & 3 design depend on everything being fused together- otherwise, the pieces by themselves lack the structural integrity required to withstand daily use).
Apple makes money by selling slim, sleek, and sexy hardware. iFixit is blaming them for not producing thick, heavy, and over-engineered equipment instead that is easily serviceable and modular. The only time frame I'm aware of where iFixit's views were societally acceptable was around 1995-1998, where we saw pieces of equipment like the IBM Thinkpad 760XD (still own one of those- it's an awesome laptop). Chunky as hell, weighs as much as a tank (and is otherwise built like one), totally modular, everything is user serviceable. Compare that to a modern day Apple laptop though, and it looks like it was manufactured on a different planet.
TLDR; iFixit is stuck in the past because their business model depends on it. Boo hoo.
-AC (because I work for the aforementioned company as a tech during the day)
I understand the appeal of fixing your own stuff, being able to take things apart and figure out how they work, and making them work better, but there's some things that are just not suitable for that kind of thing. Like, you don't hear people bitching that the transistors aren't replaceable on their CPU. As other components miniaturize, it's just too difficult to effect field repairs. They become too small and too delicate and tolerances are too tight.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
...is that Apple just knows its market. The average consumer is perfectly happy to purchase and use devices they cannot service themselves. This is true of their cars, their phones, their televisions, their refrigerators and their washers (just to name a few) - why would they argue over a tablet they cannot service themselves?
Personally, I have no desire to own any Apple product of any kind, precisely because of this kind of crap. However, I frequently recommend their products to my less technologically-inclined friends. Not because there's anything particularly wonderful about the products, but because they are simple to use.
I've had things like RAZR flip phones that were held together with screws and after a while they get really loose feeling. My work laptop, a 3 yr old Dell, creaks like a haunted house when I pick it up with the display open. Not my Apple equipment. My 5 yr old MacBook Pro sems as solid today as it was when I bought it. My iPhone seems to be made from a single slab of glass wrapped with a metal band. My iPad 2 is the same way - solid feeling.
Used to be, back when the phone company was broken up, cheap home phone makers were bolting big slugs of metal in the base of their stuff to make it feel solid. Solid is good - ever slam a car door? Cheap cars have doors that rattle. Good ones don't.
People value stuff that stays solid. As long as I can get my stuff fixed, I don't care if it's me that's doing the fixing or someone else. I used to fix my own cars, now I take them in. I can't fix the ECU and have no desire to buy the equipment necessary to be able to do so.
- real hackers don't have sigs -
Oh, please. Do you seriously think that any other brand of portable electronics are going to be any different? These things are built out of a very small number of highly-integrated surface-mount chips that you can't buy _anywhere_. Maybe ASICs, maybe multicore DSPs with OEM-specific on-chip features (some of them safely tucked away behind security fuses blown through JTAG). It's been like that for 20 years. No serviceable parts inside, period. The world of application-specific semiconductors left the hobbyist behind a long, long time ago.
Doesn't she know that she's now dependent on Neuropozyne for the rest of her life?
I remember when Linux was good... too...
You know, if your dad catches you using his computer to type this kind of racist trash, he's probably going to kick you out and then you'll finally have to get a job. I know, you're almost at 40 and figured if you could just keep cruising you could go straight from your parents' basement into a retirement home.
Ah well, there's always the underpass, and that strange homeless guy that keeps calling you "Shirley" and going at it to something in his pocket whenever you come back from the 7-11 with a Slurpee. It may seem strange now, but he's as close to security as you're ever going to get again.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
There will probably be two biggish regrets in my life when I'm 80 years old : All the women I should've tried harder to fuck. Maybe not having kids sooner. And that I spend a decade using Apple laptops. I should've stuck with Linux for laptop machines!
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
Holy Wars aside, teardowns are that much easier and getting parts/docs doesn't require you to be an authorized shop at any stage of the product's support.
Not only are they maintenance friendly from the start, there's documentation(Hardware Maintenance Manual) for replacing every component. On top of that, parts are generally available to all, even if they're in or out of warranty. Thanks to that, there are plenty of modifications that can be done (e.g. cross-model combinations of parts within the T40-43 series and within the T60/T61 series) to avoid design flaws (such as Nvidia's Bumpgate and GPU soldering flaws) or add uncommon/unlisted features (such as better displays).
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
The Kindle Fire is easy to open. The device is easy to slip out of the case by gently prying around the edges. There's no need for Apple to glue the ipad together. They could have done the same thing as the Fire.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
If you're one of the 1 in 100,000 who ever gets beyond these two concepts? You already know where to go and what to do.
Damn right. If you're going to build circuits that go into handheld devices, you'll have to design chips for a semiconductor manufacturer.
Been there. Done that. Took the retirement package.
Oh, and don't forget a battery. The MOST likely part to fail in the lifetime of the device. Might be nice to squeeze a couple of more years out of it by replacing the battery (but not at the Apple repair shop which will charge you $149.95 for the service
I wouldn't want Joe Sixpack screaming at me for a replacement after dismantling his 500$ + toy on the living-room carpet following a 5 picture teardown and a couple paragraphs on google written by kids who got a similar device on flebay for 40$ and replaced the glass.
Red Herring.
You can have difficult to repair due to space constraints, and that's justifiable. Active denial systems and booby traps are a whole separate issue.
The later model Mac Books that are sealed actually have very easy to replace cells, there's nothing about them that would make a cordless phone style cell replacement (yes land line cordless), out of the question. It's protectionism 100%
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The next step (already in the R&D phase at various places in Silly Valley from what I read a year or so ago) is to print the whole thing on a web press, from the back to the front like a big electronic newspaper. All of the individual components have been successfully done this way - even most of the 'chips'. Once we get to that point, the cost of manufacturing may be so low that it's pointless to fix even if it were possible - it would be one solid unit like pages of newsprint glued together. Just grind it up, separate the materials, reconstitute and reprint a new one.
I wouldn't be surprised if this were already possible for a lower performance device.
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
Interesting to mention this while the Mac Mini went the opposite direction. You needed a "special tool" (spatula) for the previous models (and literally "crack" them open - if you heard the sound you know), and since they got all aluminum you don't even need a screwdriver to upgrade memory.
And to all the commenters complaining about how big of a pain it is to upgrade an Apple product: you are comparing desktop PCs to compact machines and laptops. My Macbook pro was easy to take apart, my macbook (older white) was a little harder. I had to change a cooling fan on the latter and unlike my Toshiba, it survived the procedure, and without a scratch... still my media player...
Funny how people complain about "closed systems" too recently. These are the people who do not understand, that you can develop whatever the hell you want for your devices... the distribution is Apple's..... most of my smaller problems can be solved by "web apps" - controlling my appliances, cameras, lights alarms etc .... jqtouch or icefaces take you far-far without writing native code ... unless you need a real app...
Just my 2c. I really have a feeling the people criticizing haven't owned a recent-day mac or iWhatever.
The real reason that consumer electronics are so difficult to repair has nothing to do with corporate conspiracy. Electronic design has shifted over the past generation from using large and discrete components to being almost exclusively dependent on integrated circuits and highly miniaturized surface mount devices. Twenty years ago perhaps, a hobbyist could get out a volmeter and soldering iron to trace a circuit problem to an individual transistor within, say, a pre-amp or filter assembly, and then easily replace the defective part within minutes. Now the entire assembly, formerly involving dozens of components, has been replaced by a single and often very tiny IC chip. In addition, any resistors or capacitors in modern circuits, once large enough for anyone to easily manipulate, have now been reduced to the size of grains of salt and are nearly impossible to extract and replace. In fact, the rule is that it is now much cheaper to simply dispose of defective circuitry than it is to attempt any kind or repair.
Replacing a battery, touch pad, or screen may still be within the realm of possibility, but broken electronics are better just destroyed and replaced with new.
First, this is hardly new, the culture of replacement vs. repair is nothing new. A "licensed technician" is in most cases someone who has access to the service manual and the replacement gear, and this is done so that this whole branch of "services" are outsourced, as they are not a significant income source for the manufacturer.
Second, nothing stops you from doing DIY electronics -- I assemble circuits all the time, some I interface with purchased gear. Frankly, most of the time I use purchased gear for a UI, and have my circuit do whatever job must be done without many frills except the communication unit and some command protocol.
If Apple (and, btw, practically all other mass electronic device manufacturers) must be pressed about something, it is about allowing communication with the device and easily deploying own software.
In this respect, Android does a moderately decent job for USB, Apple and various android devices are roughly equivalent WRT bluetooth, and I suspect, while I haven't bothered to check, that if necessary one can probably learn the Apple connector interface and use that too.
Mod parent the fuck up. People like sleek, "sexy" designs. This comes at a price. Swapping hard drives on a MacBook Air is going to be far more difficult than on a Mac Pro.
That said, ease of service comes and goes with Apple products. Ever try to get at the hard drive of an iBook? I gave up after about forty screws. Try it on a "classic" MacBook. Three captive screws and a pull tab. Easy as pie. I just replaced the top case on said MacBook when the keyboard died. I'm not happy that the keyboard/trackpad/case are all one piece (plastic welded together), but it was actually a pretty easy repair (and the iFixit guide got a number of key details wrong).
On the plus side I now have fifteen extra upper cases...
The revolution will be mocked
OK, I will grant that. A battery that cannot be replaced without breaking the case is just dumb.
You were modded insightful, but you're wrong. One example in the smartphone realm is the HTC Sensation. It is slightly larger than the iPhone because it houses a 4.3in screen making it far more useable for my imperfect eyesight. However it is as thin, and if you drop it on concrete from ear height, nothing happens. I tested it. It has user replaceable battery, screen, and anything else you could reasonably want to replace without a soldering iron. HTC was very ingenious in the Sensation design, because unlike many manufacturers that either glue shut the entire device or use a flimsy backplate for the battery, the Sensation's entire casing comes off in one piece at the press of a tab. Solid, functional, slim.
Another smartphone example is the Nokia N9, and its cousin the Nokia Lumia 800. The casing is a single polycarbonate piece that wraps around the internals. On the surface it only has two flaps that cover the SIM and microUSB. Yet you take out two screws under the flaps and everything slides out, making it accessible. And it's as small as the iPhone.
In terms of laptops, the Sony Vaio SZ, the Acer Aspire 3820TG, and a whole bunch of others were MUCH faster than equivalent MacBooks, while still being fully user serviceable. I've taken dozens of laptops apart, replaced components inside including the motherboard, and NONE were as difficult to access as Apple products.
I can't comment on tablets from personal experience, but I have looked at a Samsung a friend has. Intel Core i5, 4Gb RAM, microSSD, plenty of ports, 5+h battery life running Windows 7 and it's marginally thicker but about the same size as the iPad. Again, user accessible as far as I could tell.
Face it, Apple CHOOSES to make their products the way they are. They even went as far as to invent a completely new screw type just to prevent people fro accessing their Macbooks. Sony used to be as bad, but a declining market share smartened them up a bit. Watching the iFixit video you can see the screen is glued all around, which may make sense. But why not put a few screws on the back so the back plate can detach, making battery replacement easy? Not swappable on a daily basis, just once every couple of years.
Stop making excuses for a company that is worth more than half a trillion dollars. They DO think different(ly), as they've gotten screwing their customers down to an art form. And their customers love it.
For a car analogy: I used to like working on cars. They were simple. Shoot I could physically climb in next to an engine. There was so much room in there. We used to complain about some compact cars because the spark plugs were virtually inaccessible. Now you look at the engine compartment and the engine is almost one solid chunk. There is little empty space, it is filled with hoses and wires and other devices. Not to mention the electronics and computers involved.
I'm not saying it isn't fun anymore. It just isn't as easy and simple, and requires too many specialized tools.
What I miss from my misspent youth is electronic component stores. Radio Shack hardly carries any parts these days unless you wanna go catalog, and to get a couple parts (tunable coils, for instance), you have to buy a cheap 'Flavor Radio' and parts it out. As far as consumer grade computer electronics, there's still Tiger Direct and New Egg. But that's about it.
Kinda sucks, being at the end of an era...
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
I've been a happy consumer of HP's elitebook laptops for some time now. They have far better build-quality (Mil-spec) than Macbook Pros, are certified to run linux, can be ordered without Windows, and are extremely easy to open up to swap components out, as well as being far better value.
And now I see that they are bringing out an all-in-one desktop machine specifically designed to be easy to customise, totally tool-free.
Having a preference for the OS is the only objective reason to go Mac. Everything else is hype inflated by their astronomical advertising budget.
I think you still point out the other side of the issue. Look how FEW parts are actually in there. If the stuff is well-tested then little can really go wrong. When you plan to make twenty million of something, and make it reliable all those little pieces add up.
The main problem is one or long term resource management. The original iPad already has been kicked from the new iPhoto app... When iPad has the same processor as iphone4 and can easily caputre pictures with something like an eye-fi card in your camera. For all the thousands of watts of energy it takes to make this stuff, two years is a little insulting... So Apple is being generous for original owners and will let them slide for another whole year. So what? use a crippled device? Or throw it away? I understand that 90% of the mass of an iPad is glass, battery, and aluminum... Very recyclable. I also know from working in a steel company that 60% of the cost of making a steel part from recycling to machining is ENERGY COST for furnaces, machines, treatments, machining, and a factory to work in.
Places like iFixit make good money keeping devices functional and out of a landfill for another year or three after Apple would want to sell you a new one. The same goes for Linux... Keeping unsupported things working. That companies are starting to use "copyright" to essentially send stuff to the landfill so you face to buy new is the real problem here. We need some exceptions to copyright tha when a company stops supporting a device with upgrades they have to issue a patch to "unlock" the device so modders and repair shops can legally fix them.
It's actually somewhat ironic, because if the device was that easy to work on, then iFixit wouldn't have a purpose either. So I guess what they're wanting is consumer electronics not specifically designed for an end user to service, but easy enough that an end user does have a chance of repairing them with good enough instructions.
Better known as 318230.
Has the world of replacable batteries been left behind a long long time ago? Since it is a fact that every lithium based battery will deteriate with time even when not used... Way to build in planned obsolesence.
So you want to have screw everywhere? Biased, hatred, non sense post, thanks for wasting more time with Apple hate.
Get my e-mail after a captcha test in: http://tinymailt
"TLDR; iFixit is stuck in the past because their business model depends on it. Boo hoo."
Look at it another way... There is enough DEMAND to hang on to devices that their services are needed. And Apple is essentially trying to REFUSE to support the repair process because of a few bucks. It's that attitude that if WE don't feel like supporting something it's WRONG for ANYBODY ELSE to do it too.... That change in society is the bigger problem.
This has nothing to do with making it harder for DIY, it's just harder period. Compare this to major PC companies who whitelist devices in firmware, or other industries using "security" fasteners requiring patented and regulated tools.
Seven screws is sealed? You expect wingnuts?
Takes all of ten minutes to replace a battery in a current model MacBook Pro. Woop de do..
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
It's a great time to build electronics. Digi-Key and Mouser will sell you a huge range of parts and get them to you overnight. Lots of places will make your PC boards for $50-$75 for a small board. Oscilloscopes are cheaper than they used to be. DVMs are really cheap.There are whole ecosystems like the Arduno, with free, user-friendly tools. Even most of the micro controller vendors now offer free compilers. There are useful web sites, IRC channels, and hacker spaces. You can afford to dedicate a PC or a phone to controlling or displaying out from whatever you're building.
None of that existed 20 years ago. I had to struggle to convince Hamilton-Avnet to let me buy from them, and they required a credit check. Having a PC board made meant drawing it in AutoCAD, having litho films made by one shop, and getting them to another shop to make the board. It wasn't cheap. A C compiler for the 68HC11 microcontroller cost thousands of dollars. Getting an RF link to a mobile device was a huge headache.
So quit whining that you're having trouble opening the box on portable devices built to be extremely thin, and actually learn how to build your own stuff.
http://ifixit.org/1843/new-ipad-teardown/
Vid : http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPad-3-4G-Teardown/8277/1
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Well, that plus they actually have the ability to make things that small, because the 11 year old girls working at Foxconn have fingers small enough to work on something as tightly packed as an iPhone.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
I got my room mate a Generation 1 Ipod for Christmas what seems like an eternity ago. A considerable time later its screen stopped working. So I gnawed on it a bit until I got it open, and reseated the ribbon cable that went to the LCD. That fixed for quite a while.
I don't mind using an angle grinder, to prove a point. Though in that case I just had to move some stickers around until I found a screw. People might ask you why your ipad has duct tape all around the edges, but by God I'll get that fucker apart.
I'm sure they just don't want you voiding your warranty though, poking your stubby fingers around in there and getting dorito dust all over its vital circuits. Then duct taping it up and trying to pass it off to a genius as "No it's always been like that."
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Let me get this straight: you're defending Apple's "thin and light" design on the one hand, but on the other you think Apple's engineers are so stupid and incompetent that they can't design the case to be thin and light while still permitting the users to replace the battery and screen? There is no universe where that argument even makes sense.
Instead of trying to convince you that the current case is designed to be anything but a repair-bill-generator for Apple technicians, I'll present the evidence for the further loathing Apple demonstrates for their DIY customers in just two words: pentalobular screws. If Apple gave even ONE shit about user access, we would never have seen them add these tiny abortions to an existing consumer product. Yet there you go.
And this certainly isn't Apple's first attempt to treat their customers like stupid money cows to be milked on an annual basis. They use their vertical integration monopoly to have software changes drive people to buy upgrades. iOS4 pretty much rendered every iPhone 3 and older useless. And if you set the wayback machine to the 1980s, you may recall the original Macintosh case had to be opened with specialty extra long Torx screwdrivers that Apple wouldn't sell you. Want an upgrade? Go to an authorized Macintosh repair center, you filthy vermin customer, and spend your money on us.
Apple is like the goblin race in the Harry Potter movies. They think they can collect money from you for the hardware but they somehow really still own it because they made it. And as long as the fanbois are so busy trading in their iPad 2s for iPad 3s (to get that extra 512MB of RAM for only an additional $599) they'll get away with it.
Hell of a business model, don't you think?
John
The claim that Apple engineers are too incompetent to make the batteries replaceable wasn't believable with the iPhone 1 and it isn't with the iPad 3.
Ditto.
And among the reasons I will avoid an iPad for a while:
- Since the screen is nearly edge-to-edge, I will need a tough protector. I would cry at a scratch. Add $40+
- And a decent case, scratches on the back would be tear-worthy. Add $50+, and I like real leather. Mo' $
- At least two other chargers. Nothing lasts long enough, so one for the car and one for wherever. Add $60
Sheesh, I'll need something else, like a BT keyboard. I'm adding $200 in accessories, and i haven't bought an app yet.
I have several BT headsets to choose from, single and stere, so I've already spent that,.
But I so love my Sensation, I'm in no hurry to buy anything Apple.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Not really, no. It takes a bit more thought in the design, but not a lot more space. I have seen laptops that are practically impossible to get apart and I have seen others that come apart layer by layer with a few well placed screws and long enough wire leads that a mere mortal can put the thing back together. It's not that hard.
Total bullshit. My new HTC Sensation is just as thin as an iPhone4 and has an easily removable case back and replaceable battery and SD card. The "mechanism" such as it is takes a tiny bit of space at the bottom of the phone, where the battery can't go anyway.
People didn't buy Windows Tablets because Windows is a shitty OS for tablets (and phones, except maybe for the very latest version), and no one wants to use a stylus with a tablet computer.
It still doesn't excuse the iPhone or iPad, and "officially" they're not user replaceable. I also don't consider the need for a pentalobe screwdriver truly user replaceable even if I can get around it.
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Cars are easier to repair now, as long as you don't get one of the stupid designs where you have to drop the engine out the bottom to do maintenance. Every car since 1996 has an OBD-II interface, so all you have to do is buy a $50-200 scan tool from your auto parts store, plug it in, and it'll tell you all the diagnostic codes your car's computer has flagged. If you can't afford $50-200, then you can't afford a car, nor can you afford the other tools needed to work on it; a full set of wrenches will cost more than that.
Just like smartphones, the repairability of cars varies wildly by manufacturer and model. Some suck, and some are great. As I said before, some shitty vehicles require you to drop the engine to do necessary maintanence, others are designed for easier repairability. I don't know if they've changed in the last decade, but all the Hondas I've worked on have been extremely easy to work on, while many American cars I saw in the late 90s were absolutely horrible, with batteries hidden in wheelwells (so you had to jack up the car and remove the wheel to replace the battery: everyone here in Phoenix has to replace their car battery every 12-18 months, so an operation like this should be quick and simple for an auto-parts store clerk to do in the parking lot), spark plugs that require you to remove access panels in the dashboard to get to, etc.
You don't need electronic components from a crappy store like Radio Shack. The prices are outrageous (and always have been, at least as long as I can remember).
Just go to digikey.com and order your parts there. They even have a first-class shipping option. They have every part known to man.
The truth is that the tolerances inside these devices is so astoundingly tight
That's the truth is it? In spite of all the counterexamples
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
This is exactly right. There was a similar problem with some iMacs, for the exact same reason. You should get modded up.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Seven screws is sealed? You expect wingnuts?
Takes all of ten minutes to replace a battery in a current model MacBook Pro. Woop de do..
That's 7 screws too many. My laptop's battery comes out by releasing two catches on the bottom and that operation is done in 10 seconds without having to dissemble everything.
I put an SSD into my Asus the other week, that took 6 screws, 1 holding in the panel, 1 holding the caddy in place and 4 attaching the drive to the caddy. It was a two minute job if you're taking your time. I could rip out and replace half the components in my Asus U46 in the same time it takes you to replace the battery (and with the SSD, it'll have booted before you've even got the 3rd screw back in)
That's how user unfriendly Apple is, replacing a battery should be able to be done by anyone and should not require a screwdriver.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Everyone writes a bad sentence now and then. When it happens, it's best to say "oops", fix it and try to avoid doing it again. Getting defensive about it is not the way forward.
My new HTC Sensation is just as thin as an iPhone4
But it's 2mm thicker!!! It won't fit in the pocket of my spray-on jeans!
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
it's not like they used rivets or welded it shut. i've taken the glass off a mbp unibody and i imagine it's about the same level of care needed. it isn't that difficult with a heat gun and a suction cup. all of about $20 at the local hardware store.
note maybe ifixit should be capitalizing on a market opportunity rather than whinging. i can't imagine it would be too hard to fashion a rug to heat just the edges to the correct temperature and make the whole process so that they don't have to wait til their hangovers are gone, about midweek, to repair these things
how many tools does a car mechanic have? how many of them are custom to some specific make?
Plenty of similar devices that are easily opened up by the end user prove you wrong.
Translation, They love filling lalandfills with toxic electronic waste. Why does Apple hate Mother Earth?
It's not racist if it's true. He really is a faggot and a nigger.
I guess that got confirmed when you gave him a bj?
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Most end users can't be bothered to put their own memory in a PC let alone do anything that involves a soldering iron.
Right, they pay the neighbor kid a few bucks to put the memory in. They do, however manage to put new batteries in various devices that are properly designed to allow it.
Might be article 11 of Directive 2006/66/EC.
Member States shall ensure that manufacturers design appliances
in such a way that waste batteries and accumulators can
be readily removed. Appliances into which batteries and accumulators
are incorporated shall be accompanied by instructions
showing how they can be removed safely and, where appropriate,
informing the end-user of the type of the incorporated
batteries and accumulators. These provisions shall not apply
where, for safety, performance, medical or data integrity
reasons, continuity of power supply is necessary and requires a
permanent connection between the appliance and the battery
or accumulator
EU members were to pass laws to implement the directive by September of 2008, though the directive was more focused on further restriction of mercury and cadmium in batteries, similar to directive 91/157/EEC, only more so, and improving recycling programs, and this bit seems to have gone largely unenforced.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
Yes, but the batteries wear out and should be easily replaceable. The screen and any connectors are by far more likely to fail than the CPU or memory, those should be replaceable by someone skilled with a soldering iron at least (really the screen shouldn't need solder).
They're all idiots. Or 'sheeple'. Or don't do any real work. Or hipsters living off their parents. Or....
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Your so right. I found it impossible to replace the hard drive on my Macbook Air.
Is there anything inherent to batteries that requires you to be able to change them without tools? Don't be such an arse. You need a tool to change your car battery. You need a tool to change your desktop computer's PSU. The new MB battery can be larger without that mechanism and last longer (and it is, and does) and quite frankly the one time one needs to perform such an operation in the computer's lifetime one can take the five minutes and make use use his/her opposable thumbs and that Philips-00 screwdriver.
Speaking of other phones, does anyone know where to find the sensor *size* (as in, physical area) of any phones? They all just say how many Mega-Pixels, which is almost completely useless. Sensor size is one of the best measures of how well a camera works in adverse conditions (indoor light, for example), but they never publish it.
They might throw up various bullshit excuses how this isn't true, e.g. how a hatch ruins the form of a device etc. how they run a repair / replace program but it is true. It is very plain that by sealing the devices that consumers are encouraged to give up and buy a new one even if the old one only needs a replaced part. Given the recent moaning over rare earth metals (which phones and tablets consume plenty) there really is no reason for any country to tolerate this. Zones like the EU should be forcing all devices to be at least battery serviceable.
Aren't we talking about a product that got the benefit of an open architecture in the first place? I'd imagine the product landscape would look a lot different if they didn't have an operating system with an open enough license to base their iProducts on in the first place.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Ditto.
And among the reasons I will avoid an iPad for a while:
- Since the screen is nearly edge-to-edge, I will need a tough protector. I would cry at a scratch. Add $40+
- And a decent case, scratches on the back would be tear-worthy. Add $50+, and I like real leather. Mo' $
- At least two other chargers. Nothing lasts long enough, so one for the car and one for wherever. Add $60
Sheesh, I'll need something else, like a BT keyboard. I'm adding $200 in accessories, and i haven't bought an app yet.
I have several BT headsets to choose from, single and stere, so I've already spent that,.
And this would be different on an Android tablet, how, exactly?
Oh, I know (at least as far as the case goes)! They're already so butt-ugly that you wouldn't mind a scratch on them...
BTW, the carbon-fiber case I got for my iPhone 4s cost me a whopping $13 on Amazon, and protects both the back and front (with a flip-down cover on the front-side). Plus, it only adds about a millimeter to the overall size of the phone. The Addesso case I got for my iPad has a *removeable* Bluetooth keyboard in it, and I think I paid $40 for it. There were cheaper cases with keyboards; but that was the one I wanted.
As for "never enough chargers"; if 10 hours+ of continuous use on your iPad isn't enough, you need to seriously step away from the "devices" and get a life.
Seriously... I love to tinker and I love taking things apart and fix or hack them, I've been doing it since 25 years already. BUT I also like my iPhone and iPad because they're the only things I own where I'm not tempted to tinker around. I like that! The things just work and they do anyting I want. I stopped jailbreaking after I found out, that the only things gained are stupid customization gizmos I don't need. Like already stated: If you don't like the product don't buy it! What do you all hope to gain from your crusade? Couldn't you use all the hate-time to do something productive? Yeah I know, since I own apple products I'm tainted and couldn't possibly be objective... sigh...
Crivens! I kicked meself in me own heid!
locking up them from non-apple techs is a strategy originating to original mac. it's not a secret that they've went through extra trouble for it.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Also, my BB and Nokia phones don't become useless after a single short fall.
Neither have any of the iPhone's I have owned, mostly without cases.
Also I've seen iPhones before with cracked screens, and they were still perfectly functional. Much nicer to have a device without buttons that can fail.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It does, though. Replacing the battery is something that's rarely done. Additionally, some (small) amount of space (for the same external case) is used to handle the additional case layers, latching, etc.
Take a look at the iPad and iPhone real-world uses. The reality is that they very often provide enough power to last through a typical usage day - which is the design goal. There's not a lot of excess battery time in either of them. This means that by moving to a replacable battery either the device would have to grow in size (undesirable to many), or battery life would go from "just enough" to "not quite enough." That's a terrible decision for a product manager to make - which probably explains why they didn't make it.
You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
I've owned Apple laptops almost exclusively for 14 years. I buy the warranty and I've never spent a nickel beyond that for repairs. If they have to open the case that's their problem.
Oh and Apple sent me a brand new replacement devices when I broke something at their expense.
Which you can send to a 3rd party shop and get a battery replacement for about 1/2 that cost if you are out of warranty. Not "do it yourself" and not fixable are not the same thing.
I am glad the average consumer believes all electronics are impossible to fix. Not only would it reduce the amount of easily repairable second hand gear out there but what are the odds the pile of solder and hot glue on your work bench would even be yours vice wife's, dad's, or friend's?
I am 33. My first computer at 8 was a Sinclair ZX-81. Then an Atari model (800XL, the silvery one, which BTW survived being run over by the back tire of a Pontiac 2000STE) then the better model (130XE, the ventilated off-white plastic one, which came along with pen printers, multiple 5.25 floppy drives, tape drive [I couldn't get Zaxxon in any other format], and 600 'baud' [remember 'baud'] modem), then some kind of 6mhz super-proprietary system where the power came through the monitor into the desk unit and had an OS called Gem or something, then a roaring fast 80286 that was my first real "hot-rod". The last two were used, all of those earlier ones were bought brand-new, and there are of course many days when I'd happily go back to Atari if they made laptops or were still in the business of amazing.
Unlike all the other machines mentioned, the 286 (besides running at my choice of ultra-fast 10mhz or 12mhz, in 1991) was the first machine I had that you could open up and really customize. Granted, you could pick open the Atari and from what I hear you could cram some more RAM into it but it was never necessary because it's not like LOGO is going to give you 8 turtles instead of 4, or Escape from Epsilon is going to turn into Jumpman or Gauntletak is going to go 3D or something. When you're mostly playing shareware it's not a huge deal to operate with 64k, in fact, 64K SHOULD BE ABOUT ALL YOU EVER NEED. WHAT. [Okay, so some programs used the full 128k but to do that those budding 'programmers' needed to utilize the other memory bank, you know! Tricky tricky stuff! Atari BASIC!]
Anyways, so the 286 was like heaven. I outfitted it with a 20 mb expansion-slot hard drive so I could keep running my 2400 Baud BBS (in 1991) which up until then was operating primarily off of a floppy and was serving files and message boards from a 12 mb IDE. I was really upset when I found that the expansion slot drives I had access to didn't like to be in the same computer with one another, and soon after I got Taipei virus which basically ruined a lot of crap including the floppy. I had an ATI all-in-wonder EGA/VGA card. The EGA was, like, above and beyond normal EGA in some way I can't even remember. I remember when I finally afforded a VGA monitor and swept into the world of VGA.
All of this love life was the result of being able to open up and modify my computer. So of course I snickered and guffawed at the Dell, Compaq, Gateway, and other computers of the world that were insisting that their users had to use their hardware. I thought it was especially crude that some of these companies had worked out ways to ensure that you not only used their parts but also made sure you had software on hand to re-acquaint the hardware with the motherboard or else you were screwed. At the time, these companies were selling their computers as the cheapest on the market, so there was this illusion of "you don't want to spend money on a computer you can work with? You're not going to be able to work with your computer." Which I admit lulled all us geeks into complacency.
It was easy to say that it's alright to manufacture and mass market these devices that can't be worked on, because they were going cheap. We noticed that most of the users of these devices weren't very computer-literate so much as they were glad they had their internet poker, their mahjongg, their Sierra and their Myst (though Sierra games were on their way out by the time Compaq started to corner the market).
Eventually, though, these losers won out. People in the Compaq demographic didn't learn-up and throw their useless piles of steaming turd to the corner and go to the OEM store and hand-pick their hot-rods for just $50-100 more. They kept using them, and upgrading, and Compaq became this giant. Dell managed to beat them but they were both playing the same game: proprietary hardware, and I as well as many others never, ever thought that this was going to be the business model that would dominate the PC market and survive through the ages.
So of cour
"Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
I'm sorry that every girl you know, you met because they want you to repair small proprietary devices for free or in exchange for feeling a boob rest on your shoulder a couple of times.
"Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
In my case, I'm only one little capitulation away from dropping my fuck-apple-guard:
If Apple were to admit Adobe/Macromedia Flash onto their iOS (palmtop) components, and I could browse and watch and play things like a normal person, then I would have no problem with using their devices into the foreseeable future.
As it is, I probably won't buy an Apple anything if they want to actively shut me out of useful information.
"Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
Currently I work in a warehouse where, all day long, I am doing one of four things with stuff that's dropped off for refurbish and resale:
1. See whether it works and if necessary learn how
2. Determine if it's salable or if it's not, if not, scrap
3. If it's salable but broke, fix it
4. Clean it up until it looks like it's almost brand-new
Step 1 isn't too time-consuming because I don't mess with the mountain of gaming consoles. I wait until some new person wants to take a load off and build morale, and let them think they're having fun weeding through all the not-quite-complete systems in hopes of being able to shuck off some free time in lieu of "testing these games to make sure they work". Everything else besides gaming consoles is pretty straightforward: lamps, educational toys, power chairs, more toys, boutique appliances, home fixtures, weird shit like FM boosters that plug into your wall outlets, storm radios, more toys and things that look like toys but they aren't, power tools, everything else besides gaming consoles is easy to figure out.
2. If it's easy to figure out it's pretty easy to repair. Sometimes I run into something really stupid, like having a little plastic shield hiding a screwhole. It's so seamlessly made that it looks like somebody heat-stamped a plastic cover over the screwhole. So you go prying to the interior to see which kind of clever way they tried to make this rotating fan or radio control truck unserviceable, and you break a plastic molding before you realize the little 'stamped' part comes off with a screwdriver. You end up adding some materials not cleared by the manufacturer like superglue and spray-on elmer's to the casing to make it operate normally again, but it does. Or a shredder that was designed to ONLY work if you happen to set it down on the lips of a proprietary wastepaper basket with a special plastic dick poking out of its maw. So you remove the safety device and bridge the connection and the entire reason why it was donated free in the first place is gone. This warehouse I work at, which is a charity drop-off place, gets so much stuff that's "broken" but really needed to be cleaned or to have a wire snipped, that it's fabulous.
3. The rest is god-damn scrap. Iron or steel of various grades, aluminum, and copper. It all gets torn apart and sorted.
4. Who cares
(3) is what I'm bothering to write all this about.
When you're in the business of tearing shit apart for the little bits of valuable metal, you run into a realization pretty quick: as the years go by, companies get better at protecting those metals, and they started way, way, way the fuck back like the early 1900s. "Shielding", my ass, if it was "shielding" it wouldn't be held down by four screws and also wrapped the fuck around the other side of the board. The more you get into stuff and see where screws are located, how accessible things are, and so on, you realize there's this real fine line between "we did this for your safety" and "we did this because we don't want ye te be haven any o' our lucky copper and gold!"
And don't get me started on how you'd recycle all of these Chinese products from a place where they gave up using solder ten years ago and since then it's all hot-glue, all the time, like a porno.
And then there's user serviceability. Most things that are easy to take apart are easy to put back together. You need to be able to complete both of those processes in order to successfully service something. Service can be something as simple as cleaning the guts out of something. You wouldn't believe how many appliances and gizmos are out there that clearly accumulate dirt and detritus on their insides as a fast pace and yet are apparently designed with no mind for getting into them without destroying them. And that usually means having to exert significant force in two opposite directions, at potential danger to yourself. Rather than just remove a couple screws, it's plastic grenade time, because they glued or hot molded the thermoplastic sh
"Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
I know of no-one who has a protector for their iPad screen. I'm sure such people exist, but they're pretty few and far between. Most people have cases that double up as screen protectors. Mine cost me 25 quid. It's very nice, too.
Instead Apple keeps things simple for those that need it, but allows expansive access for those that really want it.
You can't be serious. The entire Apple philosophy these days is one size fits all.
"Disassemble" is a bit of a stretch - other than the panel being held on with screws instead of clipped closed, there is no functional difference.
"Anyone" can replace the battery in a MBP. It's a really, really simple job.
Replacing the RAM requires that you take off the same panel - which Apple considers user-servicable. The only reason the battery isn't technically is because they don't sell them as spares (you have to buy third party), but all the "disassembly" is covered by the designed-by-Apple-to-be-user-servicable RAM installation instructions.
Changing the HD is similarly very quick. Upgrades to SSD drives, including the more esoteric double SSD drive setup (replacing the optical drive) are really not difficult.
Isn't this the same bunch of clowns that declared the End Of the World As We Know It because Apple started using tri-wing screws? (Ones for which they just happened to sell overpriced drivers?) Even though at the time you could buy tri-wing drivers from any number of other tool outfits for a buck or two?
So you're ignoring the positive sides of Apple's DIY-friendly efforts, like using socketed Intel "i" CPUs in the iMac that work with whitebox parts, or the design of the original Powermac G4 towers that could be opened and upgraded without any screws at all and had cable routing so that you could run the computer while it was in the open position (the logic board side opened to horizontal so you could easily get to the PCI slots). They also made it absurdly easy to upgrade and service the MBP line.
The iPhone 3G/3GS is similarly very easy to repair - 10 minutes and you have a new battery. The pentalobe screws in the 4 were an odd choice, given the way they have been changing their designs in recent years (if only for their own servicing needs - the machines have become *a lot* easier to assemble and to service compared to the old G4 laptops), but who knows why they decided to use that type of screw. It might have been manufacturing related (concerns with driver cam-out or engage/disengage time during automated assembly that made the pentalobe screw better than a torx or a cross-head. Or it could be that they want to discourage home tinkering.
It's not the first time Apple has been specific over screws - the G4 Powerbooks used a combination of philips head and torx on the external case. I remember the ranting about that back then since "who has a special torx screwdriver at home!!?!".
Make no mistake, Apple makes very few accommodations if it affects the design of the product consider the hilarious and fiddly, yet still perfectly functional internal latches to open the white polycarbonate iMac - they could very easily and perhaps even more effectively had the latches accessible from the outside, but then the back of the computer which you hardly ever see anyway would not have looked as nice. You might say that was "discouraging" home repair, but really it is just an aesthetic choice.
Ah yes, the "anyone who doesn't agree with me is a shill" argument.
On /.? How original!
I also note you didn't actually read his post carefully - I assume you just skimmed the first couple of paragraphs and decided you had enough to base a solid, informed response on.
Get real. You should at least be able to replace the damned battery!
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
This, this, a thousand times THIS! Nothing highlights the difference between Woz (a true geek and visionary tinkerer) and Jobs (a cold-blooded marketer who couldn't give a shit less about the tech itself) than to contrast the Apple I/II days (when Woz was still doing the heavy-lifting) with today's walled-garden/don't-even-think-about-tinkering-with-this iOS era.
What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
I like Apple computers. There I said it. That doesn't mean that I particularly like the company. I do agree that the unnecessary difficulty in repairing the things - even something as basic as replacing the hard drive - is not right. If I could easily install OS X on a beige box I would do so but I'm probably not nearly technical enough to successfully attempt it. It is not the computers I like so much as the OS. I used Windows up until XP and never enjoyed the experience. I have tried Ubuntu and it just didn't stick for some reason. So I'm sort of stuck with Apple until a real alternative (for me) turns up. I say good luck to the Windows and Linux users if it works for them.
http://www.acetonestudio.com
Dude, I have plenty of (valid) criticisms of the Android OS. Do you have a *single* thing that you can criticize about Apple? You fucking spin *everything* as a positive. EVERYTHING. It's really, really sad to watch.
And I think I've corrected you personally on this before, but solving the paradox of choice is beneficial to sellers, and not buyers. It helps them sell you more shit. Having less choice is never a positive thing for the buyer.
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
Absolutely, they have certain products that are very accessible. Their towers are great to work on, and shows exactly the kind of nice accessibility design that we all know they're capable of. And that shows the contrast, and makes my point. They are perfectly capable of creating a phone with a replaceable battery. If they made an iDevice with a replaceable battery, I expect it would be magically socketed, it would be impossible to install in an incorrect polarity, it would have recessed contacts so it couldn't be accidentally shorted. It would probably even have a little SPD-like chip with a serial number and manufacture date so the device would know the voltage and capacity for charging reasons, and wouldn't accept counterfeit batteries (probably for claims of safety reasons.)
Apple is perfectly capable of producing this engineered to a finer degree than any company has ever made a replaceable battery device before. Yet they don't. The only logical reason for them to be so DIY-hostile is to entice users to throw away their old phones and trade up about the same time as their batteries are showing signs of wear. That's the outward sign of a company who thinks they own their users, not one who thinks they owe their customers.
John
The larger problem I see is that, if you pay Apple to replace the battery, they won't actually do that. They take your Ipad and exchange it for a refurbished one. So you don't get "your" Ipad back.
I've had enough bad experiences with refurbished products to never go down that route again. So I am left with using a third-party repair shop.
Ahh, the old "lots of people are ok with it so you should just STFU about it too" argument.
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
what?
How did you come to that conclusion?
Have you even looked at their lineup? At its most minimal (~'97) there were consumer and pro desktops and a laptop. Now there are all sorts of products and choices. They are farther from one size than they have ever been.
Like anyone can even know that
Vernor Vinge talks about this stuff in 2006 in his book Rainbows End. Everything is made from sealed parts no one has access to. In one moment of desperation the protagonist rips apart a car to see what is inside, only to find, more sealed parts.
I've seen the future friends, and its turtles all the way down.
There is an Apple repair place down the street from where I live ADVERTIZING prominently that they repair iPads, iPhones and iPods?
Nothing to see here -- move along now...
Dude, I have plenty of (valid) criticisms of the Android OS. Do you have a *single* thing that you can criticize about Apple?
iTunes. The entire thing. Particularly trying to use it to get anything not bought at the Apple store onto an iOS device.
Data files are not shared between apps. I need a separate copy of files if I want to use them in different apps for any reason (when I was choosing between eBook readers, this was particularly annoying -- especially since I was trying to use iTunes trying to figure out how to get them in there in the first place -- though I guess it had a side-benefit of making me find Calibre so I could bypass iTunes entirely).
There, two things! Are you happy now?
~Anguirel (lit. Living Star-Iron)
QA: The art of telling someone that their baby is ugly without getting punched.
No, there is an active war on DIY ANYTHING... and, we citizens are losing.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
There are so many different Android devices and such fragmentation of the Android "OS" that saying Android has surpassed iOS means nothing.
Good lord. I remember the days when lots of drug stores had tube testers and sold vacuum tubes. Talk about the end of a era. That may show how old I am, but I remember my dad "fixing" the TV (or his amplifier for his "music box" and the music world was still in mono) when a tube went out. If it was an uncommon tube he knew a fellow who owned an electronics parts store. They had a real good tube tester and all the "unique" parts you could need. Back then repairs were board level. My, how times have changed.
Companies aren't as stupid as you think. Sure, they can sell a few cool new toys to the geeks but its only a free way of getting market extablishment AND product research. After you've ironed out the bugs, then you start making it user friendly for non tech savy folks. Yes, I hate apple.