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Why Microsoft's Keeping the Next Xbox Under Wraps

donniebaseball23 writes "Microsoft recently confirmed that it's not going to be talking at all about its next Xbox, codenamed Durango, at this year's E3, instead keeping the focus on Xbox 360. Forbes columnist Chris Morris explains that Microsoft likely doesn't have games to show for the system yet — and why should they take the focus off Xbox 360, which currently has a lot of momentum? Ultimately, though, the decision not to show the next system 'could have a ripple effect on the rest of the industry,' he says. And by pushing Durango's unveiling back a year, 'Microsoft could find itself going head to head with Sony in a battle of features, even if the machines don't hit shelves at the same time.'" The latest rumor is that an ARM-based Xbox 'lite' is planned for 2013, with a true successor to the 360 coming some time after that.

195 comments

  1. My personal opinion by MasterMan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think that while Microsoft would certainly like to release the new Xbox already, they are afraid of doing so. Not because of Sony, but because of Nintendo.

    The last generation surprised everyone on the console front. Hardcore gamers kept playing with PS3 and Xbox360, but Wii ultimately won the round by attracting general population into gaming. Suddenly you had millions of new people introduced into gaming, especially girls. While Microsoft has always produced quality products and by far they are the best on the industry on lots of products, they don't know how to capture that market. They want it badly, but they want to look how Nintendo succeeds with their Wii successor. By delaying the release they can learn from Nintendo's mistakes and hit them hard next year and become the #1 of next generation consoles.

    1. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, the red ring of death would seem to indicate that MS's gear isn't always the highest quality...

    2. Re:My personal opinion by P-niiice · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wii won in unit sales, but they have turned a generation off with a (yes, huge-selling) fad device and continued rehashes of old franchises.

      If they don't steal some core players from MS and Sony, they're sunk this time around. they need to out-power the big boys and deliver some adult games that compete with the exclusives that Sony and MS own.

    3. Re:My personal opinion by MasterMan · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The red ring of death issue was majorly overestimated, and you know why? Because Xbox360 actually does show error messages on failure while PS3 and Wii do not. It became it's image, just like the blue screen of death. Image wise it would had been better for MS to just show nothing in both cases. I do, however, appreciate Microsoft's honesty and not trying to hide the issues from users.

    4. Re:My personal opinion by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      That may be part of the reason, but I think it may also be that they don't want people to just dump the platform (Not buy new games or new consoles) figuring that the brand new system will soon be out.

      If they can release at the same time Xbox360 lite and the 720 then they are in a good position. First game sellers will still sell their old stuff for all those people who got the 360 lite where they were just too expensive before and the Hardcore will get the 720.

      Microsoft made a fare amount of ground against Nintendo with its Konnex games and their casual Gamers marketing campaign.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    5. Re:My personal opinion by crazyjj · · Score: 2

      It's highly debatable whether the Wii really "won" anything in this generation. The Wii hard great hardware sales at the beginning, but its software attachment rates were awful, it's hardware sales eventually bottomed out (while the PS3 and 360 kept going strong), and with its weak online system it had no real way to make significant income from DLC and subscriptions (just think about how much MS makes each year off of Xbox Live alone).

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    6. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Adult games??!!???

    7. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Adult-oriented games.

    8. Re:My personal opinion by djdanlib · · Score: 5, Informative

      I recall that Microsoft did everything they could to deny the issue (including telling retailers not to process returns) until the magnitude of the problem became so obviously large that a hardware redesign and recall was required. Were you around Slashdot back then? It was full of stories about that. I do think we are partly to blame for them finally owning up to it, quietly though that was.

      As for the PS3, I have no idea how Sony handles it, but that may be because I don't purchase Sony products anymore. Nintendo has excellent customer service according to the reviews I've seen, although I nor nobody I know ever had to send their Wii in for service - even after blatant abuse by children, animals, drunk roommates etc.

    9. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The red ring of death issue was majorly overestimated...
      I do, however, appreciate Microsoft's honesty and not trying to hide the issues from users.

      Wow. Why do you shill for MS?

      From Tech Digest [www.techdigest.tv] - A survey of retailers has found that as many as 30 percent of all Xbox 360s are being returned for repair. This goes against Microsoft's assertion that Xbox 360 is well within standard industry failure rates of 3 - 5 percent.

      From HCW [www.hardcoreware.net] After vehemently denying there being a problem, Microsoft has finally caved in and extended the warranty of the XBOX 360 another 3 years across the board, for those who have the RED RING OF DEATH problem.

      I could go on and on and on... Use google and see how MS really treated their customers when the RROD was first reported.

    10. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Really? An estimated 33% of Xbox 360s were sent back for repairs and you think it's overestimated because it has some lights on the front? Both the Wii and PS3 have hundreds of error codes, along with warning lights and beeps that inform the user of a problem.

    11. Re:My personal opinion by P-niiice · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      well, i have wanted to see princess peach in some other contexts.

    12. Re:My personal opinion by Isaac-1 · · Score: 1

      I think it comes down to one thing, why replace a money maker, the buzz about Kinect has seemed to breathe a bit more life into the platform, the latest generation of the entry level console has brought the price point down to be competitive against Wii, and more and more of the game complexities are being handled on the server end. So again why replace a money maker, instead spend more time developing Kinect 2.0, get it right, and then own the industry.

    13. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If there's anybody to be blamed for the Wii losing momentum, it's the third parties. They saw the Wii was selling out, and there was a huge untapped market, and they released... Rehashes, ports, and shovelware. Nintendo can only do so much in terms of software production, and there was a lot of money on the table for third parties to develop a decent game for the Wii. So what did they do? They chose to leave that money on the table, and piss away their money developing 'blockbuster' titles for the PS3 and 360. They chanted the mantra 'the Wii is a fad, and its momentum will fade' so many times, it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

      Don't forget, there was a time when the Wii's moved the most software out of the three systems, even after removing first party titles from the equation. There was a ton of growth potential, but that potential was just outright ignored by everybody except Nintendo.

    14. Re:My personal opinion by Mad+Leper · · Score: 2

      Microsoft lied & denied about the RROD for a full three years until the threat of a very public lawsuit forced them to admit the problem.

      Not what I would call being honest.

    15. Re:My personal opinion by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

      Xenoblade, Last Story, Monster Hunter Tri would like to have a word with you, but in the end I really can't disagree with your statement.

    16. Re:My personal opinion by SadButTrue · · Score: 2

      Nah, Nintendo couldn't care less about older gamers. Their target audiences are children, teens and young adults. They can continue to re-release effectively the exact same game over and over forever to this group because the group it's self it transitory.

       

      --
      grape - the GNU free, open source rape
    17. Re:My personal opinion by Anubis+IV · · Score: 2

      If they don't steal some core players from MS and Sony, they're sunk this time around.

      Because if there's one thing that the recent success of the Wii, games on mobile devices, and the move to freemium models has shown us, it's that the market for casual gamers is much smaller than the market for "core" gamers.

      No, wait. I have that backwards.

      As much as I would LOVE to think otherwise, the fact is that casual gamers outnumber hardcore gamers by a wide margin, they're quickly becoming worth more to the companies making games, and companies have no need to cater to us if they want to succeed. In fact, by all indications, catering to us is backwards and on the way out. Nintendo proved that you could sell an underpowered console at a profit from day one and still make piles of money. Apple and numerous Android manufacterers have shown that you can sell a nifty device at a decent profit margin and satisfy millions of people with $1 games.

      Sony and Microsoft are trying to use their consoles as gateways into the living room, allowing them to sell other services while establishing the beachhead for what they think will eventually be a single device that controls all entertainment that plugs into the TV, but that strategy has yet to pan out, and normal people are getting frustrated by the difficulty of dealing with consoles that require constant firmware updates and patches. They want an appliance, not a computer.

      I don't think hardcore gaming is going away, but I have a bad feeling that it will become more niche in the coming years.

      Disclaimer: I own a Wii, PS3, iPhone, and iPad, and am looking to purchase a 360 soon so I can finally start playing the games I've already been buying for it.

    18. Re:My personal opinion by flabordec · · Score: 1

      I don't understand this point at all. The huge-selling Wii now has a market that means a lot more than "core gamers". Even if these core gamers stay with Microsoft or Sony, Nintendo has a big market all for themselves and Nintendo has their own exclusives which include the three the top rated games in Gamerankings. And if the Playstation and Xbox have shown something is that "continued rehashes of old franchises" is exactly what the market wants, look at the top selling games for PS3 and Xbox 360 and most of them are yearly rehashes (7 instances of the Call of Duty series!)

      --
      "I see undead people" Warcraft III - Necromancer
    19. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is... Nintendo doesn't need this core players, they are doing excellent with the market they are attacking right now which is young kids and whole families, why bring the adults, when the kids are always asking for that new game and parents "don't have a choice" so they have to buy it for them.

      The WII is a "cute" console, I don't see how an adult would like to play war or zombie games on it. That's why I got an XBOX 360 for myself while lot's of girls have a WII, is very impressive the marketing power of these people. MS and Sony haven't been able to really bring the family to play together starting by the way their console looks, it is very clear who each console is trying to get.

    20. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll give Nintendo credit for creating a very successful fad console - certainly successful beyond the Xbox360 and PS3 - however the Wii has long since gone around the bend in terms of popularity. Kids like them, sure, but long-term the "sustainable" gaming consoles are the Xbox360 and the PS3. I'm sure Nintendo made a ton of money on the Wii and frankly it will be very interesting to see where they go with their next console but surprisingly Microsoft has taken them head-on - and out-innovated them (though obviously the Kinect and "motion gaming" came along YEARS after the Wii was introduced so I may have to reserve my statement that they were out-innovated). If Nintendo can come up with something in 2013 that trumps Kinect and PS3 in terms of the motion experience but also really soups up the graphics - HDMI, hello? - plus a slate (say 5-15 initially) very good, console-making titles exclusive to the successor to the Wii (Wiii? Wi II? Wii 2?), then there's a very good chance Nintendo is back in the game console market. After all, they had bowed out for years after the SNES and the rise of the Playstation that swamped the console market for so long - Microsoft was still a scrappy start-up in the console market back then. In any case, I for one am not one to count Nintendo out.

    21. Re:My personal opinion by Dahamma · · Score: 2

      Xenoblade, Last Story, Monster Hunter Tri

      See, now, that's precisely the problem. Even their good games sound like stupid kids games from the 80's. Maybe they should make the translations from Japanese a bit less literal...

    22. Re:My personal opinion by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      it's self it...

      Wow. Even for slashdot, that's quite some mangling!

    23. Re:My personal opinion by blackicye · · Score: 4, Funny

      The red ring of death issue was majorly overestimated, and you know why? Because Xbox360 actually does show error messages on failure while PS3 and Wii do not. It became it's image, just like the blue screen of death. Image wise it would had been better for MS to just show nothing in both cases. I do, however, appreciate Microsoft's honesty and not trying to hide the issues from users.

      Because the PS3s and Wiis kept failing, and their owners cluelessly continued using them and enjoying their games until this day for many of the consoles?

      As opposed to the Xbox 360 developing the RROD which you otherwise could have mistaken for normal operation in some cases as early as 3 to 6 months after purchase, and often repeatedly after getting it back from RMA, and being such a fiasco that the warranty was retroactively increased to 3 years?

      Hmm you have a point I guess, or not.

    24. Re:My personal opinion by s.petry · · Score: 1

      While Microsoft has always produced quality products and by far they are the best on the industry on lots of products, they don't know how to capture that market. They want it badly, but they want to look how Nintendo succeeds with their Wii successor. By delaying the release they can learn from Nintendo's mistakes and hit them hard next year and become the #1 of next generation consoles.

      Sorry, but the reason I won't own a Xbox is because of the quality. My Sony devices can run 24/7 and be just fine. Xbox on the other hand tends to burn up if you play regularly (better now, but still not the same quality as Sony or Nintendo).

      A few people I worked with were Xbox fans. All of them had the same issues. 5-6 hours of hard game play daily and their Xbox would die. One guy complained to Microsoft after having to have his Xbox replaced for the 4th time in 3 months and received a reply from the something along the lines of "Microsoft expects the average Xbox to run for 1-2 hours per day. Anything beyond that is considered excessive use. Needless to say, he ditched the Microsoft device and went back to PlayStation. I'm glad I never switched.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    25. Re:My personal opinion by alen · · Score: 1

      it was a fad

      other than nintendo fanboys it was people like me buying the wii fit and EA Sports Active and that's it. the fit board sucked and now i have an x-box with kinect

    26. Re:My personal opinion by ifiwereasculptor · · Score: 2

      and normal people are getting frustrated by the difficulty of dealing with consoles that require constant firmware updates and patches. They want an appliance, not a computer.

      Actually computers still let you work while they are downloading upgrades. They also let you choose when you want to get your upgrades. And what irritates console gamers the most, from what I gather, is being forced to wait while a full Gb of updates is downloaded just so they can play their games (I still hold a grudge, Heavy Rain). I have a 512Kbps connection - and a very unstable one, to boot -, so a console like that would be highly impractical for me.

      Anyway, my point is that you kind of got it backwards. Computers supposedly give you control over their behaviour - appliances are the ones who usually don't. Of course it's a highly debatable statement, given the recent trend to appliancize (shit, now I hate myself for using such a word) PCs.

    27. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Call of Duty" do the job then?

      Also note that its very much considered a kid's game, even if rating agencies would like to disagree.

    28. Re:My personal opinion by vux984 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Wii won in unit sales

      And turned a profit on every unit sold.

      but they have turned a generation off

      That "turned off generation" already abandoned them on the gamecube. But nintendo found a whole new market of people to replace them.

      continued rehashes of old franchises.

      Lets see what's most anticipated according to gamestop's website:

      Assassin's Creed III
      Another Ghost Recon
      Witcher 2
      Borderlands 2
      Tiger Woods PGA 13
      Another Star Wars Game
      Halo 4
      Prototype 2
      Warriors Orochi 3
      Darksiders II
      Resident Evil 6
      Another Bioshock
      Max Payne 3 (with BONUS!)
      Sniper Elite 2
      Dragons Dogma * first game that is not a continued rehash of an existing franchise?
      Another Medal of Honor
      Lollipop Chainsaw * second game that is not an existing franchise
      Far Cry 3

      Yep, continued rehashes of old franchises for the win. And a near uninterupted parade of FPS games. How is it you are not turned off by the xbox360?

      they need to out-power the big boys and deliver some adult games

      Why is that? There aren't enough Medals of Honors and Halo's on your xbox that you'd buy a wii 2.0 to play even more of them?

      Hate to break it to you, but Nintendo already lost you. Pandering to you with a parade of FPSes featuring giant robots that dismember alien zombie hookers isn't really going to win you back... that market is saturated.

      Going after new markets is a winning strategy... New Super Mario Bros Wii is probably one of the best games I've ever played. Super Paper Mario and Super Mario Galaxy were great too. The Metroid Primes were well done,and Kirby's epic yarn was pretty much adorable, and the kids loved them all too.

    29. Re:My personal opinion by tgd · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wii won in unit sales, but they have turned a generation off with a (yes, huge-selling) fad device and continued rehashes of old franchises.

      And, more to the point, lost *badly* in game sales. There are a LOT of people with Wii consoles, and most of them have Wii Sports and maybe another game or two.

      That didn't put Nintendo out of business, as they don't sell the Wii at a loss, but it sure limits the upside of each sale. Sony and MS make dramatically more money per console sold, because they sell so many more games per console.

    30. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While Microsoft has always produced quality products

      quality products

      .
      . .

      quality products

      You must not be talking about the same company referenced in the article.

    31. Re:My personal opinion by P-niiice · · Score: 2

      Those pro-wii arguments are a couple of years old. Selling a zillion consoles is most deffinitely a success, but failing to continue to sell games is a problem. You sour parents on the next Nintendo consoles when their child isn't playing the dust-covered wii anymore.
      I think Live and PSN 'panned out' just fine, and the complex consoles did fine, even with lower sales than the wii. They built customer base for this gen coming up, and had games that warranted more than 15 minutes' play. I don't think Nintendo did itself any favors by selling so many consoles and not backing it up with compelling content - especially when it was released with a built-in technical disadvantage.
      The wii U is nice, but time will tell what kind of games it's bringing.

    32. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason I won't own anything Sony makes is because they continually fuck over their customers with their misguided paranoia of pirates (rootkits, anyone?).

    33. Re:My personal opinion by P-niiice · · Score: 1

      I have to agree, it was very bad, and MS started out handling it in the worst way. Eventually, Microsoft took care if it, and did it in the best way possible...pay that money up front, do a 'my bad', and satisfy your customers.

    34. Re:My personal opinion by tgd · · Score: 3, Informative

      I could go on and on and on... Use google and see how MS really treated their customers when the RROD was first reported.

      Yeah, if you actually called them and didn't gripe to your friends on the Internet, or try to pitch a fit at the store, they replaced them. And did so very quickly. (The early failure repairs were 2-day in-and-out shipping, and if you had it to UPS first thing Monday, you frequently had it back before the weekend.)

      A lot of companies got burned during that time by the switch to no-lead solder... and Microsoft, unlike a lot of consumer electronics companies, stood behind their devices.

    35. Re:My personal opinion by AngryDeuce · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yeah, okay dude.

      I don't actually know anyone that hasn't had to replace their Xbox 360 console at least once due to it either getting the RRoD or that bullshit where it just stops reading the fucking discs. I'm on my third, the first one died 2 years after purchase, sent it in and got it replaced, it died again about a year and half later (just after the 3 year extended warranty, of course), so I had to purchase a new one out of pocket since obviously I'm not about to just say fuck it when I've got like 40 games and a ton of accessories for it. Now that one is even making a grinding sound and taking forever to load discs so I'm sure I'm going to have to replace that one soon, too. At least I can keep using it as a Netflix box, I guess, but considering I've invested already $700+ dollars into it ($500 for the Elite that died, $200 for the replacement Arcade unit), that does little to soften the blow.

      My PS3 and Wii are both still going strong 5 years later. My Playstation 2 is still going strong (although I admit I had to readjust the laser height at one point) and I bought that at least 10 years ago, my N64 still works at 15 years old, my SNES, NES, and Gameboy still work, they're all over 20 years old. Hell, my original Xbox even still works (although I hardly ever use it, not since I last played through KOTOR 1 & 2 a year or so ago in preparation for The Old Republic).

      My point is, obviously there is something different about the 360 when all these other consoles are still going strong after so many years (and I put more hours than I can count on some of them, I'm big into JRPGs, so my PS2 had many, many 12 hour days, as did my SNES). Meanwhile, it seems like you fucking breathe on a 360 funny and the thing self-destructs.

      I admit, I don't know what the quality is like with the newest consoles with the redesigned cases and ventilation and everything, but Microsoft really screwed the pooch with their older models. Either that, or it's all a ploy to get us to buy the same fucking console over and over again, in which case I'd say they succeeded spectacularly. I know one thing, I'll be damned if I buy the next one right away. I'm giving them at least 2 years to get the kinks worked out first because lord knows they're probably going to need it. I'm not even a Microsoft hater, I've put a lot of hours on my 360, but nowhere near what I've put on those older consoles, and certainly not enough to justify it's ridiculous failure rate even just in my own personal experiences, and like I said, I don't know anyone that has had a vastly different experience than I have with the hardware.

    36. Re:My personal opinion by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      I guess no one remembers the PlayStation (PSOne) drive failures etc etc? Or the PS2 disk read errors? I've been on slashdot well over a decade now (think I first hit this place in about 1999), and there was just as much bitching about the PSOne and PS2 and PS3 as there ever has been about the Xbox360 - the failure modes are different, but because the Xbox360 errors came in a clump they seem to stick in peoples minds more.

    37. Re:My personal opinion by alienzed · · Score: 0

      "While Microsoft has always produced quality products and by far they are the best on the industry on lots of products" How much did they pay you to say that?

      --
      Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
    38. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I literally do not know anyone who is still on their first Xbox 360.

    39. Re:My personal opinion by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 1

      I own an xbox 360 Elite from when that was new and I have never had an issue with it. So anecdote for anecdote we seem to be even.

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    40. Re:My personal opinion by Anubis+IV · · Score: 2

      I don't disagree with what you said. Traditional computers are definitely about giving users control, whereas appliances are not. That said, I think that's a discussion along a different axis than where I had intended to go. The axis I was talking about was the level of hassle. Computers, because they give users more control, also offer more nuisances than locked-down devices. That's just the nature of the beast.

      Appliances are supposed to be things that you simply use without having to think about the details. They do restrict a user, but it's done with a purpose in mind. Exposing users to patches and updates is contrary to that purpose and is a hassle that they shouldn't have to deal with.

      Even so, PCs aren't uniformly more annoying. PCs have an elegant way of handling patches that consoles should adopt: doing them without bothering the user. I can sit down at my Mac or Windows box in the morning and see that updates were downloaded and are either ready to be applied or were already applied overnight.

      Simple. Easy.

      Consoles should either be doing that by default, or, at the very least, offering it as an option. The fact that they're forcing that hassle onto the users is turning users away. Even I've been perturbed at the end of a day when I'm looking forward to being done with work, heading home, and spending a few hours with a favorite game, only to discover that I may as well go ahead and make alternative plans because it's going to be a few hours before the game is ready to play. That's not the sort of experience that sells consoles, yet it happens all too often. That was my point.

    41. Re:My personal opinion by Mordermi · · Score: 1

      The PS2 disc read errors were an easy self fix. The RROD is much more complicated.

      Also, as long as you never moved or bumped your PS2, I'm pretty sure you would never get the disc read error since it was caused because the laser would get bumped out of alignment. To my knowledge, there is no real way to prevent RROD. I had my PS2 for at least three years before I got the error, and I haven't had any issues since I fixed it myself. It still runs perfect to this day.

    42. Re:My personal opinion by Pubstar · · Score: 1

      Oh the problems of being a console gamer. My PC has yet to fail on me... by the time something does, its time to upgrade anyways.

    43. Re:My personal opinion by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      " While Microsoft has always produced quality products"

      Never owned a Xbox360 have you. The graphics chip falling OFF the board because of a massive defect in cooling design is not my definition of "quality product"

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    44. Re:My personal opinion by Caratted · · Score: 1

      I wish I had the points to turn this into a 5.

    45. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boy are you wrong. The casual gaming market LOVES rehashes, ports, and shovelware. When it costs $2 on their iPhone, that is.

      Nintendo is stuck with an outmoded sales model -> physical disks / high prices / lame retail stores / game catalog is not discoverable. Fourteen year old boys read about upcoming videogames, casual gamers don't. Hense nothing sold except exercise games and Mario.

      They better be hiring some iOS developers, because N's current business model is still stuck in the 1980s.

    46. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've had to send my Wii in *twice*. As it turns out, if you were one of the folks who got the very first wiis, the lasers were kind of crappy, and when the dual-layered discs came out (Brawl), you couldn't play them unless you got your laser cleaned/replaced. Considering I bought the Wii specifically for brawl, and that the laser crapped out on dual-layered discs twice, I can say that those of us who were first in line got kind of a raw deal. Getting the laser replaced cost almost as much as a new Wii.

      (yes, I know... anecdotes, selection bias, whatever)

    47. Re:My personal opinion by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree with most of what you said, but I think you misunderstood some of what I said. Let me clarify.

      I do disagree regarding game sales for the Wii mattering as much as you say. The lack of sell-through on games isn't, I believe, as much of an issue as we might hope. I know a few different people with Wii consoles, and the only one getting dusty is mine. All of the others see regular use with their older games. A group of light-gaming college guys I know still play Super Smash Bros. Brawl regularly on their Wii. A young family I know has a four year old who plays the original Super Mario Galaxy and Mario Kart Wii all the time. They even bought an HD projector and screen so he could enjoy them more since he was playing them so much. I know another older couple that uses Wii Fit regularly. None of them are soured on the Wii.

      Regarding things "panning out", I wasn't referring to PSN and Live, which I would agree are successes. I was referring to the vision for the future that those two companies have been marketing for the better part of a decade. They've been talking about a home theater device becoming the hub of the living room by doing everything. They both saw the console as the way into that market, which they believed would be a lucrative one. That vision hasn't yet panned out. Microsoft's failures in that market are numerous and pre-date the 360 by quite a few years, and Sony has been moving this direction with consoles since at least the PSX device, which flopped horribly (they were likely trying even before that, but I don't recall anything specific).

      And I'm certainly not suggesting that the PS3 or 360 are something other than successes. They succeeded. What I'm suggesting is that the points I raised are evidence of things to come. While they certainly succeeded in this generation, the market they are catering to is likely to get marginalized in the coming years as the gaming market explodes with casual gamers while the hardcore gaming market grows at a much more modest rate (or perhaps even shrinks). They may still make boatloads of money next generation, and I have no reason to believe otherwise at this time, but I believe it will pale in comparison to the cargo boatloads of money being raked in by the companies that successfully cater to the casual gaming market.

    48. Re:My personal opinion by Caratted · · Score: 1

      Ba-doi hur dur. A rootkit is present in a closed source OS on your system that authenticates on their servers? Mod this shit insightful, informative and I'm thinking we should probably get a "headline-worthy" category, as well. Totes.

      Not that your point is entirely missed, with Sony being insultingly aggressive on the DRM front - but your parenthetical literally made me blush upon my co-workers' inquiry, "why dost thou giveth thine cube a fresh coffee coating from thine mouth?"

    49. Re:My personal opinion by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      That's fine, it's not a competition. I don't care what other people do, I'm just relating the reason why I think the claim that the incidence of RRoD is "majorly overestimated" is ridiculous. Like I said, it's not just me, it's pretty much every single person I know that's got a 360 has had to replace it at least once (I know one guy on his 5th, which is insane in my opinion), but people are going to believe what they want.

      Maybe we should all have our heads examined for buying multiple Xbox 360's in the first place. I certainly know I'm not going to invest as much in the next Microsoft console, not right away, not until I'm confident that it's gonna last more than a couple years...

    50. Re:My personal opinion by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      I keep hearing online how no one plays the Wii, but everyone I know that has one plays it plenty. I know that it gets used noticeably more in my home than the 360.

      The Wii wasn't underpowered at launch. It was correctly powered. The PS3 and 360 were over powered. That is the reason that so many more Wiis sold than PS3/360s. The PS3/360 was way too expensive for the market because they tried to pack in too powerful of a system. The power of the PS3/360 would have been properly sized for 2 or 3 years later than when they were launched. What we saw was that a couple of years in they actually started to sell when the manufacturing cost dropped to a point that they made sense.

      The Wii is currently at the end of it's generation. It's sales, and it's game sales need to be looked at in that light. PS3 and 360 are really in the middle of their generation. They are at their peak. If they released new systems at the same time as the WiiU, it would be an admitting that Nintendo was right. Worse yet for MS and Sony is that they have very little room for improvement on their current systems. HDTV is a big selling point for their current systems over previous systems, as well as over the Wii today. The TV is currently the graphics bottleneck. Sure, they could do more polygons in their models, they could add more effects, but at the end of the day, 1920x1080 is as good as they are going to get.

      MS and Sony need to figure out how to market their current situation. The consoles themselves don't need upgrading. The improvements that they can bring are in accessories like the Kinect. That doesn't make their systems bad, but it does pose a marketing challenge that they haven't faced before.

      Conversely, Nintendo's marketing challenge is going to be in selling a new system that is not significantly better than their competitor's previous gen systems since Nintendo doesn't have much room to make systems significantly more powerful than the PS3/360.

    51. Re:My personal opinion by rgbscan · · Score: 1

      OoooOOoo... can I play too? My brother's on his third xbox 360. The best part was, he worked at UPS and shipped the units back and forth all day long. He said the volume was staggering. The reason he knew is that people getting their Xbox back would usually be at school during the day so they'd get a UPS "We were here, you were not" sticky on their door. Rather than waiting for the next day delivery, the kids/teens would make their parents go to the local distribution center to pick it up in the evening that same day, after 6pm when all the trucks were back. He worked in the area that had to pull all the "hold" packages off trucks and bring them up front. He said 70% of all those pulls were xboxen.

    52. Re:My personal opinion by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      Mine was broken for two weeks, with 3-4 days before actually shipping it. And it was an international shipment. Getting a free month of Live Gold is also not too bad, especially since I never paid for Gold.

    53. Re:My personal opinion by Dahamma · · Score: 0

      Based on how well the franchise has sold in the US, yes, it did the job pretty damn well. And also note it's very much considered a kid's game by YOU; not so much by the millions of adults who bought it. You're probably what, 17, and now anything those 14 year olds in your school want to play is for kiddies? Grow up.

      Personally I gave up on the series a while back because I'm not interested in paying $60 for an 8 hour single player campaign or playing online with the type of people who play it online...

    54. Re:My personal opinion by ericloewe · · Score: 2

      For the average consumer, the PS2's disc problems are as evident as the RROD (with the disadvantage of Sony's typical attitude towards warranty and repair): Most PS2 owners were/had kids. Controllers were physically attached to the console with short cables. An extra strong tug and you have a PS2 suffering from deceleration trauma with the disc spinning. Every original PS2 I've seen has had problems with the DVD drive, no exceptions. Most 360's I've seen have had the RROD. If anything, the PS2 was just as bad as the 360.

    55. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, like games that involve balancing checkbooks, finding a job, and paying taxes... the usual fare.

    56. Re:My personal opinion by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      Wait a second, did you say you've been buying 360 games even though you don't have a 360?

    57. Re:My personal opinion by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > I'll give Nintendo credit for creating a very successful fad console

      Uh, you DO realize that ALL consoles are "fads" -- trying buying new games 10 years after the initial launch. The industry moves onto the latest shiny to milk the customers yet again.

    58. Re:My personal opinion by Mordermi · · Score: 1

      You do have good points there, sir. I suppose that they would be comparable for the average consumer. Though I've had different experience as far as how often I've seen the issues. I actually didn't see a lot of PS2s with problems for years after their launch, but have yet to meet anyone with a 360 that hasn't had a RROD within a year of purchase. Also, your point about the controllers being connected with short cables is interesting. It could probably be argued that a decent amount of PS2 failures was a result of some sort of impact. Which was part of my original point that they generally did not fail on their own through normal use, but because of abuse or accidental abuse.

      So to sum it up. Yes, they are probably comparable from an end user perspective, but PS2s didn't generally fail on their own (Which in my opinion, makes them more reliable. Note that is just my opinion). I got my disc read error only after knocking mine off of my stand.

      Disclamer: These are my opinions based on my experience. I am not saying that either of us are right or wrong. I just like to have reasonable debates.

    59. Re:My personal opinion by QuantumLeaper · · Score: 1

      Everyone I know who has had a Xbox360 has need to have it replaced by MS or they have bought a new one or more. I got a free Wireless Xbox controller from a friend because he didn't 6 controllers because he was on his second replacement. I don't know of anyone who has replaced their Wii and only open person who has replaced their PS3.

    60. Re:My personal opinion by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      A handful, yes. I also have a few original Xbox games as well and no way to play those either.

      These days, in addition to new games I love picking up games that passed by me the first time and playing them, and I plan those purchases out well in advance. I knew I wanted to play these games years ago, so when I spotted good deals on eBay, I went ahead and picked them up, knowing that I'd eventually pick up a 360 (or a later device with the same compatibility) when the price was right. All told, I doubt I've spent more than $30 or $40 for all of the games so far, so this has not exactly been a major investment.

    61. Re:My personal opinion by Doctor_Jest · · Score: 3, Informative

      I always heard it was the last-minute addition of the HDD unit destroying the airflow on the system slowly (or quickly depending upon who you asked) cooking the GPU and melting it off the mobo.

      Microsoft's last minute addition of the HDD at the top of the unit did muck with the airflow, and I think they made a "command" decision to release it flawed (knowing it was flawed) rather than not be "first" this generation. It cost them money for sure, but in my case, it cost a ton of goodwill... I will not be an early adopter of another Microsoft console. And I'm sure I'm not alone...

      --
      It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
    62. Re:My personal opinion by Kjella · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Nintendo proved that you could sell an underpowered console at a profit from day one and still make piles of money. Apple and numerous Android manufacterers have shown that you can sell a nifty device at a decent profit margin and satisfy millions of people with $1 games.

      Yeah, if anything I think it's the other way around. Casual gamers are often very casual - a $1 smartphone/tablet game may be enough, why get a $200-300 console? In 2006 there really weren't many other casual gaming options except flash games, in 2013 there are plenty. Hell, sometimes they drive an insanely crazy bargain against themselves, for example I got Hector: Badge of Carnage for the iPhone and it's a steal for $3 - actually 3x$1 so you can try it for a dollar, as opposed to paying $19,99 on the Telltalegames site. I can get Angry Birds for the PC at a bargain price of only 6.47 GBP. It's like they don't want to sell for the PC at all unless you're hemorrhaging money.

      As for the xbox/ps3, I think they both know the next generation will last much longer than this one - just look at graphics card reviews and how far they have to crank it up to 2560x1600 at Ultra/Extreme/Enthusiast/Maximum quality level and the most punishing AA modes to show the difference. The next gen consoles will have full HD and "enough" shaders for a 1920x1080 screen and will not be outdated for at least a decade. They're waiting because they want to have a little edge over the other - better to have an edge in 10 years than be first to the market for 1 year. Microsoft couldn't honestly couldn't care about their positioning relative to the Wii U, it's their positioning relative to the PS4 that matters to them.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    63. Re:My personal opinion by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately a lot of the hotly anticipating games you used as an example are not for the Wii.

      I think the parent poster's comment about "continued rehashes of old franchises" was referring to the Wii's continued reliance on game series that don't really sell well in the western markets. Sure Nintendo has Mario Bros, Metroid, and Kirby franchises but the existence of these franchises isn't enough to counter the larger number and much more popular and profitable titles that are coming out on the PS3 and Xbox 360.

      This is not taking into consideration the nonexclusive titles that play better on the more capable PS3 and Xbox 360 which puts Nintendo at a distinct disadvantage.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    64. Re:My personal opinion by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      That didn't put Nintendo out of business, as they don't sell the Wii at a loss, but it sure limits the upside of each sale. Sony and MS make dramatically more money per console sold, because they sell so many more games per console.

      Someone doesn't follow the financials of video game companies very closely, methinks. It took Microsoft what, 8 years to post a profitable quarter with the XBox fiasco? Sony's Entertainment division is doing exactly how poorly recently?

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    65. Re:My personal opinion by ickpoo · · Score: 1

      It seems that MS is trying to blame accounts getting hacked on people sharing their password online. My son had his account hacked while he was playing a game, they purchased $90 in points and transferred them to another account. It took him a month to get his money back from MS and have his Live account reactivated and that was only after his pleading to get refunded. MS appears to be denying this like they denied red rings.

      --
      I am not a script! .Sig?
    66. Re:My personal opinion by Daetrin · · Score: 2

      I'm going to elaborate on what Kjella already said. I don't disagree with you on the idea that the casual gamers are here to stay and they seriously outnumber the hardcore games, i just disagree with the implication (based on the quote you're replying to) that it means Nintendo has nothing to worry about.

      The Wii came out in 2006, and the world was a very different place then. The iPhone didn't exist, GOG didn't exist, even Steam had just started making third-party games available. There was no cheap and easy way to buy good games. If you played games you either had a comsole and bought $50 console games, you had a fairly up to date PC and bought $50 PC games, or you had an OK PC and played things like Bejeweled on the web. (Yes, there were people who pirated games and people who played emulator games and people who bought used games, but you get the general idea.)

      In that context the Wii attracted a ton of casual gamers. People who'd either never gamed before or just played Bejeweled and such in their browser. It also attracted a decent number of "hardcore" gamers. Some of us thought that Wii Sports was pretty cool, and we believed, or at least hoped, that there would also be hardcore games for the system. It seemed new and creative.

      And for awhile everything was good, the casual gamers got Wii Sports and Wii Play and Wii Sports and various dance games and various other casual games. Meanwhile the hardcore players got Twilight Princess and Mario Galaxy and Mario Kart Wii (which kind of hit it off with the casual crowd too i think.)

      Fast-forward a little bit and you see the emergence of the dilema that Nintendo is in now. The iPhone came out and took off, and pretty soon $1 games were the norm. Shortly after that Andorid phones took off as well, and though one could argue about the relative depth of the two libraries, it too has a huge library of really cheap games. Meanwhile the indie gaming scene took off, and between PSN, XBox Live and Steam hardcore gamers can get good and creative games For anywhere from $10 or $15 to as low as $1-3 during some of Steam's bigger sales. Steam in particular has turned gaming on the PC from a hobby for those who update their graphics card every year to an almost console like experience. Then on top of that the iPad and Android tablets started coming out, and those $1 games we were playing on phones are suddenly much easier to see and control

      So now Nintendo has mostly pissed away the loyalty of the hardcore gamers. They finally changed their stance on Xenoblade and the Last Story (kinda) but not before really mishandling their initial response to Operation Rainfall. At the same time sales of the Wii and Wii games have been plumeting. The fall in hardware sales is kind of expected, and one can argue about the reason for the software slump, but it is certainly arguable that the people who used to be buying Wii software, even if only occasionally, have gotten distracted by the cheaper and more convenient portable gaming options.

      If those trends hold true then Nintendo may end up being in a very dangerous middle ground between the hardcore and the casual. Their revelation of the WiiU at E3 last year seems to reflect both the problem and their awareness of the problem. They showed off a console that looked like a half-baked combination of a Wii and an iPad, while promising that it would allow for hardcore games with high quality graphics like you see on the PS3 and 360.

      Don't get me wrong, even after their misteps the past two generations i'm still a Nintendo fan, but at the moment the only thing that seems likely to convince me to get a WiiU near launch is if my Wii gives up the ghost before i get the chance to play Xenoblade and Last Story. (I've already had to take my Wii in for repairs once, and it's started getting memory errors recently. And my first PS3 got the yellow light of death. This has been a horrible generation for me in terms of hardware reliability.) I just don't trust Nintendo to do a good job with hardcore gam

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    67. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't actually know anyone that hasn't had to replace their Xbox 360 console at least once due to it either getting the RRoD or that bullshit where it just stops reading the fucking discs.

      I have had my Xbox for a long ass time (no idea on how many years - got it approximately when Halo 3 was released), lugged it between college and home many times, and it still works perfectly.

    68. Re:My personal opinion by s.petry · · Score: 1

      You have that right as a consumer, though I do hope you realize that your Windows PC phones home and spies on you so is just as root kitted as anything Sony has done. Also hope you do some homework on what the root kits were actually placed on. Hint: It was not a Playstation.

      I'm all about boycott and consumer power on market. As long as you tell others to boycott, and why, it's a damn powerful tool. Be warned though, that if you are dishonest in your reasoning, it tends to backfire and make one look like an ass.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    69. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wow. Why do you shill for MS?

      Usual deal, morons have to label anything they don't agree with to do with Microsoft as 'shilling'. Do you actually know what that means? If so do you really truly believe that MS is paying people to write comments like that on a site like this? You're really that stupid?

      I could go on and on and on...

      But of course then you'd find all the conflicting reports, and you wouldn't want that now would you.

      estimate by warranty provider SquareTrade to be 23.7%

      estimate being 54.2% by a Game Informer survey

      SquareTrade published an examination of 1040 Xbox 360's and said that they suffered from a failure rate of 16.4% (one in six). Of the 171 failures, 60% were due to a general hardware failure (and thus fell under the 3 year extended warranty)

      On August 28, 2009, SquareTrade published a report saying that "early indications point to the RROD problem abating in 2009", projecting that 1-year failure rates with the release of the Jasper chipsets might be below 4%, with actual fail rates for RROD problems at slightly above 1% in Q109, and total failure rates for all hardware problems at about 12%.

      The fact is no-one can pinpoint what the failure rate was but in the end the service was very good, consoles were replaced promptly and the warranty was extended. You can find anecdotal evidence to support just about anything.

    70. Re:My personal opinion by MasterMan · · Score: 0

      GOG didn't exist, even Steam had just started making third-party games available. There was no cheap and easy way to buy good games.

      What the hell are you talking about? 2006? All of those sure existed. Hell, cheap games existed even in the 90's. Hint: Look at GOG's history!

    71. Re:My personal opinion by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Microsoft lied & denied about the RROD for a full three years until the threat of a very public lawsuit forced them to admit the problem.

      Not what I would call being honest.

      Even if you were to take it from the very first release date up until the official open letter about it was published that still falls well short of 2 years, much less 3. Not saying that's ok but suggesting it was 3 years is a bit of a stretch.

      The Xbox 360 was released on November 22, 2005, in the United States and Canada.
      On July 5, 2007, the Vice-President of Microsoft's Interactive Entertainment Business division published an open letter recognizing the console's problems

    72. Re:My personal opinion by vux984 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unfortunately a lot of the hotly anticipating games you used as an example are not for the Wii.

      That would be because I went to gamestops most anticipated releases for Xbox 360 page.

      Where all I saw was a list of "continued rehashes of old franchises"... which is what the OP was complaining about being "the problem" with the Wii.

      The top 2 games on the list for the Wii were both new IPs from what i could tell which was interesting, but the rest of the list was sequels and movie tie ins.

      But my point wasn't that Wii games aren't largely sequels... because they are. My point was that singling out sequals as being a wii problem is absurd, given the xbox 360 list is almost nothing but sequels too.

      Sure Nintendo has Mario Bros, Metroid, and Kirby franchises but the existence of these franchises isn't enough to counter the larger number and much more popular and profitable titles that are coming out on the PS3 and Xbox 360.

      Which all appeal to primarily to people like the OP. That's all they play, that's all they want to play. Nintendo jumping in to the "15-30 year old boy who wants to play a supersoldier" fray with a hey look-at-me-too title isn't going to work.

      It will alienate the base they cater to and grew with with the Wii... and the 15-30 old guy with with his xbox live gold account is going to sneer at it no matter what it does... if they make even one mario title it'll be etched in their minds as the kiddie-platform that they don't want their freinds to even know they ever enjoyed.

      Nintendo is right to forge a different path.

      I do agree the hardware really should be stronger this next round - HD is a must now. But not being able to play all the non-exclusive titles that are heavily marketed at the xbox/ps3 crowd isn't really hurting it. Even if the Wii was equal to a ps3 or xbox... do you really think its going to be the platform of choice for the CoD crowd?

      I don't.

    73. Re:My personal opinion by quasipunk+guy · · Score: 1

      The red ring of death issue was majorly overestimated, and you know why?

      Because the only way to avoid it was to never use your Xbox?

    74. Re:My personal opinion by Daetrin · · Score: 1

      GOG was launched in 2008. Steam was launched in 2003, but they didn't add third-party games until 2005 and they didn't have major third party publishers until 2007.

      And believe it or not, the games that are really cheap on GOG now were _not_ cheap when they first came out in the 90s. Of course like now you could save quite a lot if you were willing to wait and get them used (or just decided to pirate them,) but the people who bought them new were paying a lot of money. I believe PC games went for around $30-$40 then, which accounting for inflation was about $50-$60 now. I believe NES and SNES games were often around $50 and occasionally got as high as $70 (*cough* FF3/6) which is a pretty insane amount in today's dollars.

      Yes there were shareware games you could download and sorta free door games on BBSes, but i think you're fooling yourself if you believe that those were mainstream in the same way that Steam is now. (And i'd be quite willing to believe that even Steam isn't mainstream compared to the number of people downloading $1 games on their smartphones and tablets or playing "free" games on Facebook or elsewhere online.)

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    75. Re:My personal opinion by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      I think I agree with everything you said, except the reason for your post. :P

      The point I was trying to make by pulling the quote I did was that I do not believe it is necessary for Nintendo to cater to hardcore gamers to succeed (i.e. it was not my intention to suggest Nintendo is in a solid spot, merely that they have other viable options than catering to hardcore gamers). It's reasonable that they could establish a successful business plan that caters exclusively to casual gamers. They helped to demonstrate that a casual gaming market both exists and can be hugely profitable. If they can manage to hold onto the casual crowd, then they wouldn't need to court the hardcore gamers.

      Even so, I never intended to imply that Nintendo has nothing to worry about. As you said, they have serious issues, and it remains to be seen how or even if they will succeed in overcoming them. Smartphones are eating their lunch, their first response to them (the 3DS) has been lackluster, the casual gamers they're courting are less willing to part with their money (on a per capita basis), and those same gamers are also more fickle in terms of who they buy from. The market they helped to establish is quickly slipping from their grasp, and they haven't demonstrated that they have the ability to hold onto it.

      As you said (and as I agree), they seem to be changing their tune and attempting to cater more to the hardcore crowd these days. If they could come up with a winning strategy for the casual market, I think they would take it, but their recent change in tactics seems to indicate that they know they aren't winning in the casual space like they expected to be. All I was getting at though, was that the potential for them to succeed without the hardcore gaming crowd is there. Whether or not they'll figure out the winning formula is a different question.

    76. Re:My personal opinion by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      Also, thanks for the post! I love reading well-considered responses.

    77. Re:My personal opinion by Daetrin · · Score: 1

      Okay, i think we are indeed in violent agreement then :)

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    78. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Big difference between a console that sold software for 10 years (PS, NES, 2600) and a console that died after 2 years (Wii).

    79. Re:My personal opinion by ZosX · · Score: 1

      While Microsoft has always produced quality products and by far they are the best on the industry on lots of products, they don't know how to capture that market

      Thank god I wasn't drinking milk. I think I would have blown it all over my keyboard. Here's the real question: how much is microsoft paying you to write this drivel?

      Best in the industry?? Name one example please where they are the best in the industry when it comes to quality.

    80. Re:My personal opinion by LrdDimwit · · Score: 1

      Pandering to you with a parade of FPSes featuring giant robots that dismember alien zombie hookers isn't really going to win you back... that market is saturated.

      Really? I think I would remember that. I must have been playing the wrong games ...

    81. Re:My personal opinion by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      So it would seem that spinning electronic stuff in a toy environment is always going to be problematic.

      Maybe M$ is holding off on Xbox until such time as storage media and content distribution media all go solid state. Waiting for flash drives to hit a better price point.

      Everything can be on the thumb drive, game content and saved games, don't need a large internal data storage device, a relatively small one will do.

      No hard drives or optical drives substantially reduce console footprint and simplify the console. It certainly does seem like a good time to hold off on a game console until the shift to SSD drives gains further momentum. (especially when M$ lost the hi-definition optical drive wars and Sony it's competitor won, pushing the shift to solid state media hurts Sony and thus helps M$)

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    82. Re:My personal opinion by Smauler · · Score: 1

      Bullshit.

      Which companies got burned during that time and did less than Microsoft? Which exact major league companies did that?

      Microsoft did _not_ sort the problem quickly... not if you had a defective unit, at that time.

    83. Re:My personal opinion by feepness · · Score: 1

      Consoles should either be doing that by default, or, at the very least, offering it as an option. The fact that they're forcing that hassle onto the users is turning users away. Even I've been perturbed at the end of a day when I'm looking forward to being done with work, heading home, and spending a few hours with a favorite game, only to discover that I may as well go ahead and make alternative plans because it's going to be a few hours before the game is ready to play. That's not the sort of experience that sells consoles, yet it happens all too often. That was my point.

      PSN+. You have to pay for it, but it allows automatic cloud save uploads so you always have access to your save games as well. Plus free titles and reduced prices. Should be free in my opinion, but you simply get a status report on what's been uploaded/downloaded. Been available over a year now...

    84. Re:My personal opinion by Smauler · · Score: 1

      Your statistics are useless without time.

      SquareTrade published an examination of 1040 Xbox 360's and said that they suffered from a failure rate of 16.4% (one in six).

      One in six per what?

      The fact is no-one can pinpoint what the failure rate was

      And that's the main problem. Come clean or don't shill. Everyone knows the 360's got red rings quite often, while the PS3 didn't break down much*

      When there is overwhelming evidence of things breaking more often than other things, it's silly to ignore it.

      *ps. Mine did... it was just the drive motor for the the bluray, which I could have fixed myself.... but I got a replacement, which I have now.

    85. Re:My personal opinion by Kaenneth · · Score: 1

      No, they aren't because of Microsoft, not because of Sony or Nintendo.

      As soon as the next XBox is announced, nobody will buy the old one.

    86. Re:My personal opinion by Smauler · · Score: 1

      Every original PS2 I've seen has had problems with the DVD drive, no exceptions.

      The PS2 disc problems were not as prevalent. Also, the PS2 problems were from what the user did to them to some degree - ie. you could avoid them.

      My original PS2 runs everything fine on it now.

    87. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even their good games sound like stupid kids games from the 80's.

      *scratches head*

      And these don't? You don't have to like the genre, but saying the game names sound "stupid" just makes you look silly.

    88. Re:My personal opinion by Smauler · · Score: 1

      For the average consumer, the PS2's disc problems are as evident as the RROD

      No they are fucking not.

      One is an inherent desgn flaw, and the other is whacking a spinning disc onto something it should not be whacked upon.

      If you buy something which is designed to work ok within certain tolerances, and it fucks up, you have a complaint. If you put it outside those tolerances, you don't.

    89. Re:My personal opinion by Billlagr · · Score: 1

      Well personal experience - Wii repaired/replaced - 0 (bought on launch day, in Aus, still going) PS3 repaired/replaced - 0 (Won in a comp - one of the early 40Gb fat models, still going) 360's repaired/replaced - 3 (3x RROD, models, and as they say, 3rd time's a charm) Yes, YMMV etc.

    90. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft has always produced quality products

      Is this Slashdot I'm reading??

    91. Re:My personal opinion by anss123 · · Score: 1

      I got an Xbox 360 stamped with a 2005-10-07 MRF date. I assume that makes it one out of the original production run, and it has yet to have any issues beyond noise. I've also yet to hear of any getting the RRoD, but their 'boxes are at least a year newer.

      I don't doubt there were an unusually high amount of xbox failures, but people with failed 'boxes are far more likely to post about on the internet.

    92. Re:My personal opinion by ifiwereasculptor · · Score: 1

      Traditional computers are definitely about giving users control, whereas appliances are not. That said, I think that's a discussion along a different axis than where I had intended to go. The axis I was talking about was the level of hassle. Computers, because they give users more control, also offer more nuisances than locked-down devices. That's just the nature of the beast.

      The distinction that I was trying to make was that a computer isn't exactly more hassle - it just has a higher learning curve. But once you get to know the ropes, full control is precisely what empowers you to keep annoyances at bay, whereas appliances will always force their whims onto you. By the way, setting up a Windows machine for gaming today is so easy it's laughable. I think the only extra step you'd have to take, compared to a PS3, is installing the GPU drivers.

    93. Re:My personal opinion by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      You could also argue that the PS2's short controller cables are a design flaw that leads to damage to the console itself.

    94. Re:My personal opinion by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      The hard drive alone isn't anywhere near enough. I blame the idiotic decision to use a full-sized, high-spun DVD drive.

      • - That DVD drive generates heat when it's working, so slapping it right on top of the GPU heatsink wasn't very smart. Did they perform stress tests with a spinning disc in the drive?
      • - No ventilation holes in front of and under the DVD drive. That's where the air should be coming into the system, right in front of the GPU heatsink vanes. Sucking in air from the top (complete with RF shielding in the way) was just painfully stupid. I guess they didn't want to mar the system's good looks, or trust that 3rd party faceplate would be designed with correct ventilation in mind.
      • - That darn DVD drive again, protruding into the fan shroud. Seriously, how is air supposed to get through that kind of pinch? It looks like the ventilation was designed for a slimmer disc drive, but when benchmarks showed it was too slow, they slapped a full-sized drive in there. The hard drive looks like it was meant to be external from day 1 so it's easy to swap, but the DVD drive...
    95. Re:My personal opinion by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      where's me mods? i spent them all modding AC troll posts "insightful" because i didn't like the people replying to them.

      the lead free solder thing is a definite issue. you gotta be crazy gentle with electronics these days, and if you have a BGA CPU you're pretty fuct. 3 years is a number i've heard quoted, and the netbook i'm typing on is a few months off that and already it's been in the shop, done a power jack and hard disk.

    96. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was under the impression that Sony's gaming division was making a profit. It is the other divisions that are not. It took a while before the PS3 made a profit, probably when the slim came out.

      And Microsofts XBox division is about $9 billion in the red. They made a massive loss on the first XBox, and then made a massive loss on the second Xbox. Yes, they have had a few profitable quarters but not many!

    97. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always heard it was the last-minute addition of the HDD unit destroying the airflow on the system slowly (or quickly depending upon who you asked) cooking the GPU and melting it off the mobo.

      Microsoft's last minute addition of the HDD at the top of the unit did muck with the airflow, and I think they made a "command" decision to release it flawed (knowing it was flawed) rather than not be "first" this generation. It cost them money for sure, but in my case, it cost a ton of goodwill... I will not be an early adopter of another Microsoft console. And I'm sure I'm not alone...

      I'm not sure why you would think the HDD was a last minute addition. Not only did the previous XBox have it standard, they talked about it well before release.

    98. Re:My personal opinion by afidel · · Score: 1

      Since Nintendo actually has the highest worldwide attach rate (and total games sold) right now I think you're assessment of the state of the wii is incorrect. Also I'm pretty sure since a much higher percentage of titles on the wii are first party and they should have a larger profit on first party titles that Nintendo is doing just fine.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    99. Re:My personal opinion by afidel · · Score: 1

      Since the wii attach rate has been climbing every quarter I'm not sure where your analysis is coming from.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    100. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft lied & denied about the RROD for a full three years until the threat of a very public lawsuit forced them to admit the problem.

      Not what I would call being honest.

      Three years! Really? And you're complaining about *them* being dishonest! In July 2007 they *extended* their warranty from the standard 1 year to 3 years admitting that there were problems. This covered every console they made. Up until this point, while they didn't explicitly admit to an issue, they did cover the systems under their one year warranty.

    101. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh please, you can't compare sequels in the world of xbox and ps3 games to Nintendo continual remakes. Take a game like zelda. It's always a FULL remake, with most of the major NPCs being recreated in each of the "sequels" and not just link and someone else. Take a game like Skyrim. It's the fifth elder scrolls. It doesn't play like Daggerfall at all.
      Zelda Twilight Princess was almost the same game as Ocarina of Times for christ sake. New Super Mario Bros is the same game as the old marios, the same protagonists, the same antagonists, the same side characters and even the same common enemies.
      Assassin's Creed 3 will feature a vastly different setting from previous games. And the fact is, while most anticipated games are sequels here, they're more often than not different from the past, and they certainly aren't franchises from 1985 (Mario), 1986 (Zelda, Metroid) or fighting games based on the same fucking eighties characters. Remember, I'm talking about games made by a single company : Nintendo, not third parties.

      The wii never had huge, ambitious games like Dark Souls, Skyrim, the Assassin Creed series, online multiplayer games like Halo, Battlefield, sandboxes like the GTA and Saints Row, cinematic games like the Mass Effect (a trilogy, but a trilogy that was born on the xbox 360 and didn't span decades of console generations)..

    102. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm giving them at least 2 years to get the kinks worked out first because lord knows they're probably going to need it

      Wait until sp1 (preferably 2). Just like every OTHER MS prod...

    103. Re:My personal opinion by peawormsworth · · Score: 1

      The red ring of death issue was majorly overestimated, and you know why? Because Xbox360 actually does show error messages on failure while PS3 and Wii do not. It became it's image, just like the blue screen of death. Image wise it would had been better for MS to just show nothing in both cases. I do, however, appreciate Microsoft's honesty and not trying to hide the issues from users.

      You're nuts. I know first hand that the XBox was poorly crafted. I returned 2 of them for this reason. One of these boxes scaped 2 of my game disks actually scoring marks into the CDs that had to be returned. The third one, I kept in a cabinet and didnt touch the thing accept to carefully replace disks. It worked for years, but was always ran noisy and hot. The Xbox was a powerful machine with the bare minimum of quality components. I feel Microsoft was always going for the most power at the cheapest dollar cost. You get what you pay for.

      I have several friends who will tell you that the xbox CD reader has problems and know of other red rings of death.

      If you never had this problem, then good for you. But to assume all others have had good luck, is to not statistically true.

      I expect that Microsoft has better components now as even crappy cheap CD readers are pretty good now. But there was a problem at the time and it was real.

      I know many people who have Wii and PS3 and never heard any such reports other then user damage.

    104. Re:My personal opinion by djdanlib · · Score: 1

      I have a Wii from three weeks after U.S. release, with the old lasers and the old wrist straps and everything, and I've never had to send it in. I guess YMMV?

    105. Re:My personal opinion by alienzed · · Score: 1

      How did I get down modded? Windows was the butt of jokes until Windows2000. Windows 7 is their best version yet by far, but considering ME, Vista, etc... how can anyone say " Microsoft has always produced quality products". That's just not true.

      --
      Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
    106. Re:My personal opinion by alienzed · · Score: 1

      Hell, the term 'blue screen of death' was used to describe a common situation seen in Microsoft's software.

      --
      Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
    107. Re:My personal opinion by oreiasecaman · · Score: 1

      Most PS2 owners were/had kids. Controllers were physically attached to the console with short cables. An extra strong tug and you have a PS2 suffering from deceleration trauma with the disc spinning.

      While I don't disagree with the fact that moving the console would probably damage the DVD reader in time, the PS2 controller cable was 2.4m, hardly a "short cable" for my standards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DualShock_2#DualShock_2

      Every original PS2 I've seen has had problems with the DVD drive, no exceptions. Most 360's I've seen have had the RROD. If anything, the PS2 was just as bad as the 360.

      I had both consoles and they never failed on me, nor failed on my friends who had them, either... if anecdotal evidence counts for anything.

      --
      This is a UDP joke, I don't care if you get it or not...
    108. Re:My personal opinion by Doctor_Jest · · Score: 1

      They thought it would be better to have memory cards (a la PS2), but during the development cycle (when is unknown I suppose), they added one as a "memory card" (like the original XBox) and put it on the end of the unit... covering up much needed vent holes. I read it somewhere online (and I can't seem to find it...)

      This comes from a recounting of the days before launch by a Microsoft employee. Take it with a grain of salt, but it lends credence to the ventilation problem the original 360's had (and the fact that you could buy an "arcade" version without an HDD... heck, you can even buy one now without a HDD.) I imagine the hard drive's "announcement" was in response to the PS3 including one...

      Take it with a grain of salt, because it is rumor... and knowing Microsoft, it'll never see the light of day (the truth I mean.) Because that would be admitting they released a flawed design onto the public... (which they did, but they won't admit it.) The Slims all have nice ventilation on top and bottom, plus the HDD doesn't obscure an entire side of the unit...

      --
      It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
    109. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Hardcore gamers kept playing with PS3 and Xbox360 ....ehhhh, more like bought one or both, played two games, sold 'em/retired 'em to collect dust, and returned to PC (which had its own slow 'generation' of games). this gen was an overall dud.

    110. Re:My personal opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "just look at graphics card reviews and how far they have to crank it up to 2560x1600 at Ultra/Extreme/Enthusiast/Maximum quality level and the most punishing AA modes to show the difference."

      are you saying available PC GPUs dont vary much in performance except for at 'extreme' settings??? assorted benchmarks everywhere show greatly varying performance figures, and not only between different generations and at somewhat high resolutions. i wont google for you though.

      a good many contemporary GPUs can run these console ports, but what a sad state of affairs: still making games for such old ass hardware... the consoles can barely hit 720p.

      "The next gen consoles will have full HD and "enough" shaders for a 1920x1080 screen and will not be outdated for at least a decade."

      screen resolution has no prerequisite for shaders, and saying future consoles wont be outdated for at least a decade is ridiculous. current gen consoles have *long been outdated* but dont seem quite so because *theyre often the primary development platform*. imagine if a full-blown, AAA hardcore PC-only game, with absolutely no regard to cross-platform support. if they later decided to port it to consoles, itd completely pale in comparison if it could be ported at all, due to insufficient hardware.

      more so, GPUs are entering a small renaissance, becoming GPGPUs and whatnot. the technology will change in 10 years, it will develop and mature, and next gen consoles will become dinosaurs as they are now. the only way they can remain relevant is if they remain, for developers, the primary development platform. because of $$$, that is their saving grace.

    111. Re:My personal opinion by westyvw · · Score: 1

      Every original ps2 had problems? What? So that one thats been in our house (I guess several houses,, as we moved house a few times) for all these years and still works fine doesnt count? I am no fan of Sony, but even I know that the PS2's worked fairly well, but you even walk by an xbox with a heavy step and bam red ring.

    112. Re:My personal opinion by westyvw · · Score: 1

      Microsoft always makes shit. Thats just the way they do things. And just when you think it wont be shit, its shit all over again. The have the license model agenda: They make stuff, you have the privlidege to use it until they are bored with that, and then you get something else. And if it breaks, thats okay it was never really yours, just buy it again. And in the end where are you going to go? They got the time and money to whittle down the competition to where you just wont have a choice, so hop on the bandwagon and get a plate o' shit today.

    113. Re:My personal opinion by Doctor_Jest · · Score: 1

      That sounds plausible... a hot DVD drive spinning up with one end of the system sealed off can cook just about anything. :)

      I still believe that the revisionist history from Redmond is deflecting the strange idea that the 360 was poorly designed and quite a few "features" weren't always there, but added after hearing other press releases :)

      I mean, the Slim looks like the console Microsoft SHOULD have released in 2005. But then again, we'll never truly know the cause, because knowing the cause means being able to blame... and Microsoft wants to skip that little detail, hoping everyone has forgotten in time for the XBox720's launch... :)

      --
      It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
  2. Wait.... by bobwrit · · Score: 0

    You mean that companies *don't* reveal 100% of their products before their announcement? What a shock! Modern tech journalism is just getting ridiculous :(

    --
    -- (this is a sig) My Computer Programming Forumhttp://www.programers.co.nr/
  3. marketing idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They should call the 360 a "burning platform" to drum up some excitement for the possible future versions.

    1. Re:marketing idea by pitchpipe · · Score: 1

      They should call the 360 a "burning platform" to drum up some excitement for the possible future versions.

      They could call it "Deepwater Horizon". That should drum up support!

      --
      Look where all this talking got us, baby.
    2. Re:marketing idea by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Nah, hook it up to the next installment of the Hunger Games - "Catching Fire".

      Works on so many levels.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  4. So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by crazyjj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just keep in mind, MS and Sony, that every year your systems age is another year for more of your users to look at their friends' new PC's and say "Wow, that blows away my console!" Being more-and-more obsolete is not a good position to be in in the videogaming world. Every time I've turned away from consoles in the past, it's been because I was impressed by how advanced the PC's had gotten compared to the consoles.

    --
    What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    1. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Joehonkie · · Score: 4, Funny

      I know, Microsoft loses so much when you buy a Windows PC.

    2. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by alen · · Score: 1

      ok, until you get to the part where you have to buy a $500 graphics card plus the other parts of the PC

    3. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by 0123456 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Every time I've turned away from consoles in the past, it's been because I was impressed by how advanced the PC's had gotten compared to the consoles.

      Fortunately 90% of PC games are now just crappy console ports so they don't have to worry about the PC looking better.

    4. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Servaas · · Score: 1

      Every time I've turned away from consoles in the past, it's been because I was impressed by how advanced the PC's had gotten compared to the consoles.

      So since the dawn of the game consoles then?

    5. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by P-niiice · · Score: 1

      No one does this, haha.

    6. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe look better next time, because at the time the XBox 360 was released, its specs were already outdated compared to common-available PC hardware. And not a bit, but by large, even. Due to the poor screen resolution it was less noticable as the frame rate was just high enough.

      The XBox drove on the fact that it was a console, brought console games, a console controller, and a console account at MS. People bought it for convenience and the games, not because the hardware was so good. And that didnt change, and is the sole reason they can even sell the same crappy hardware 5 years later.

    7. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yay that lame ass argument again. Right now you can put together a PC for $650 that will be better specced then even the next gen consoles will be. There is no reason to spend $500 on a GPU unless you are gaming across 3 monitors.

    8. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And the other 10% are actually worth playing.

    9. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by alen · · Score: 1

      and my consoles double as blu ray players, music players, youtube on TV, watching movies from USB stick, etc

    10. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by alen · · Score: 1

      and TV's are 1080p and will be for years to come. no need to build a super powerful super expensive console anymore

    11. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If anything is going to kill off console gaming it certainly will not be desktops. It will be cell phones. Within a few phone generations (which are remarkably short) we'll have pretty staggering graphics capability on our cell phones. Perhaps the 3rd gen XBox will be a mobile phone + controllers...

    12. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Xphile101361 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Damn, wish I could do those sort of things on the computer.

    13. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by P-niiice · · Score: 1

      THIS HERE WHAT HE JUST SAID. It's phones, not Nintendo or Desktops that are threatening consoles. Phones are killing consoles, Desktops AND portable gaming devices. No one sat there and said, "you know, maybe I shouldn't buy a console because PC's are so much better". They weighed between a 360 and a ps3 and then everybody also bought a wii no matter what they chose. Desktops will be along for the ride again this gen. Sorry, there's nothing to turn that around on the horizon. The question remaining is whether consoles can hold on to their shares when phones are really catching up to them in power.

    14. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by P-niiice · · Score: 1

      I meant phones and tablets....

    15. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My TV does all bar the bluray and it was a low range TV.

    16. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not as of late. Sure there are examples, but not 90%. The average new budget PC is now capable of producing games of superior quality to Xbox... unlike 2-4 years ago. Sure enthusiast/high end machines have been capable, but the mainstream was lacking. Because this target market is growing as hardware advances (while xbox remains stagnant), PC is gaining lost momentum. Borderlands 2 just announced a large list of PC-specific features, Skyrim added the steam workshop, Crysis 2 added in the hi-res texture packs and DX11 support... companies are realizing there is a market for better-than-console PC games. Don't forget Starcraft 2 and Witcher 2 which are top quality, currently PC-only, titles.

    17. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by halofan_sd · · Score: 1

      a Radeon 5750 costs $80 now, this video card has 1GB of memory, PS3 has 256MB. it's not even close anymore. once you have seen battlefield 3 on PC while would you ever play the console version, it's like you have half the game missing.

    18. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by alen · · Score: 1

      I've played Mass Effect on the x-box and my laptop. i don't care how good the PC version looks, i like the x-box version better. the controller is A LOT easier than the keyboard

      strategy games are a different story, but action games are better on consoles

    19. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by 0123456 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Within a few phone generations (which are remarkably short) we'll have pretty staggering graphics capability on our cell phones.

      Indeed. In a few years you might be able to play a game on a tiny phone display which looks as good as a current console.

      You might even be able to play it for ten minutes before the battery goes flat.

    20. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      action games are better on consoles

      Action games with crappy controls designed for consoles are better on consoles. Mass Effect's controls were an abomination on the PC precisely because it was a console game.

    21. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by future+assassin · · Score: 1

      Except for youtube and games my Asus O!play does it too for $65 AND watching moves from an USB HD. Take that USB stick. Wait my TV takes an USB stock too...

      --
      by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    22. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Just bought daughter iPhone and Xbox. We're replacing a Wii that died. Daughter (11) is ready to move on from basic Wii games but still likes iOS games.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    23. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is an xbox controller for PC... have the best of both worlds if you really want the controller!

    24. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by reddwar · · Score: 0

      I don't think smart phones or tablets are killing consoles or desktops, portable gaming maybe. The majority of smart phone gamers are more casual gamers that would most likely have never bought a console or a desktop for the more time consuming hardcore titles anyways. Smart phone and tablet gamers didn't steal a piece of that pie, they just made the whole pie a lot bigger.

    25. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well 50$ a year and 10$ a game is no small sum versus a one time 200$ purchase.

    26. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Meanwhile, you can now piece together a PC from 5-year-old parts from the garage and have a PC that's capable of playing games better than the 360.

      You're forgetting that the 360 was meh for hardware when it came out. A $400 PC will run circles around it today, as will a $400 PC from several years ago.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    27. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have to upgrade Windows too, so it's not a one time purchase.
      MS has Windows Live on the PC, so they can still recover some additional reoccuring revenue from games.

      Any way you look at it, whether it's a good thing ot not, MS wins.

    28. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I really wanted to use my xbox for movie watching but it was too loud. How is the ps3 in terms of noise?

    29. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by schlachter · · Score: 1

      I don't have any friends who have PCs.

      --
      My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    30. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except, you couldn't pay most people I know to have a huge ugly desktop PC taking up space in their house. Consoles are more of a lifestyle choice than anything. They tuck out of the way, just like laptops, ipads, etc.

      PC gamers are mostly dudes in their 30s/40s reliving the 1990s. Desktop = Dead.

    31. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by alen · · Score: 1

      PS3 is a lot better

    32. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Or you could set it in the dock that is sitting under the TV that routes the picture up to the same screen that the traditional console would have used, and then use a bluetooth controller to control it. The Game Console/Phone market is ripe for convergence.

    33. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by bmcage · · Score: 1

      PS3 is a lot better

      Now, that is an understatement.

    34. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by BeardedChimp · · Score: 1

      Or plug it into your tv via hdmi giving you 1080p. Connect the controllers wirelessly and you're flying.

    35. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or you know, plug it into an HDMI + power dock... not that I play games from my Photon 4G on the tv, but I could.

    36. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      So you're a Linux user, eh?

    37. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by QuantumLeaper · · Score: 1

      I guess using a wireless XBox360 controller on my desktop really sucks, must on your Xbox, right?

    38. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This argument is flawed. Many many games you can compare between PC and consoles have the same assets. That is, the main benefits are increased resolution, sustained frame rate over 30fps, better anti-aliasing on the PC. But if geometry is low, then it will stay low. From time to time you can see how Quake 2 / Half-Life 1 style of maps appear in egoshooters. That is, a small corridor between two rooms such that you cannot see from one room into the other. The most recent Deus Ex had such "optimizations" made apparent in the first levels. I hope nobody creates such corridors in real life.

      There are some cases where the PC port is better (like Skyrim), but sometimes the PC port is worse (Darksiders).

      I cannot blame developers as I am beginning to feel that PC gaming is the third option due to number of sales and support costs.

    39. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Or you could set it in the dock that is sitting under the TV that routes the picture up to the same screen that the traditional console would have used, and then use a bluetooth controller to control it. The Game Console/Phone market is ripe for convergence.

      That's one of those ideas that sounds nice, right until the first group gathering where the person whose phone is being used as a game console gets an important call...

    40. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Just keep in mind, MS and Sony, that every year your systems age is another year for more of your users to look at their friends' new PC's and say "Wow, that blows away my console!" Being more-and-more obsolete is not a good position to be in in the videogaming world. Every time I've turned away from consoles in the past, it's been because I was impressed by how advanced the PC's had gotten compared to the consoles.

      Most of the games industry is focused on consoles (more recently mobile devices) anyway because that's where the profits are. Sure PCs are more powerful but these days games companies want to reach more users across more platforms which means developing for the lowest common denominator. I haven't seen that many PC games that whip the current gen console games aside from cranking up the resolution, which doesn't really matter when you're comparing it to a HDTV that you don't sit particularly close to anyway.

    41. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am using a 3 year old video card that runs current games at levels that still make them look better than consoles. Hardware upgrades are way too overrated.

    42. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or fry your dinner on it, really handheld with PC output power? It will melt haha, which i believe caused most RROD's. Teh Circle is completeth!

    43. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      That would not be the case in 99% of gaming situations, for the other 1%, that is what tablets are for. That is if the person doesn't just answer the phone via the bluetooth headset while the rest of the group keeps playing.

    44. Re:So much for the traditional 5-year lifespan by slacker001 · · Score: 1

      >>I don't have any friends.
      FTFY.

  5. Whatever it is.. by mozumder · · Score: 0

    it will likely be the last standalone game console ever made.

    The 360 has been going on strong for the last 10 years since its inception... an epic long time for vide game industry.

  6. Wild unfounded speculation: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Microsoft is planning to have XBOX 720 run a variation of Windows 8. This would finally kill the 'black sheep' from their platform lineup and complete their "Windows Everywhere" vision.

    1. Re:Wild unfounded speculation: by tgd · · Score: 1

      Microsoft is planning to have XBOX 720 run a variation of Windows 8. This would finally kill the 'black sheep' from their platform lineup and complete their "Windows Everywhere" vision.

      Both versions of the Xbox ran versions of the Windows kernel, so technically speaking they've never been "black sheep".

    2. Re:Wild unfounded speculation: by webheaded · · Score: 1

      I highly doubt this and I'll tell you why. If they tried to charge for XBOX Live while the PC players were literally using the exact same OS, they'd probably have some really pissed off customers. Are you really going to pay for XBL to watch Netflix if you can just open up IE? Also, they don't want you running all kinds of weird shit on your console and screwing things up. That's the only advantage of consoles...because they're locked down, everything always works. The trade off is that you basically can't do anything except what they say you can.

      --
      "Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - BenF
    3. Re:Wild unfounded speculation: by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      I'm honestly surprised that they didn't merge XBox with PC Windows with the 360. If they have the same OS, it would be trivial for them to place a few requirements that allowed the software to be 'consolezed' and only installable via the 'market'.

      With tablets and smart phones some people that needed desktops in the past don't need them anymore. A wireless keyboard, wireless mouse, HDTV, and a console with a few key applications would be enough to push a huge number of home users completely away from the desktop. This could be handled on a Raspberry Pi, or it could be handled on a 360. Either way, MS loses the desktop. One of the ways, they keep the customer.

    4. Re:Wild unfounded speculation: by Spliffster · · Score: 1

      Microsoft is planning to have XBOX 720 run a variation of Windows 8. This would finally kill the 'black sheep' from their platform lineup and complete their "Windows Everywhere" vision.

      Good luck with your 6ft pole for touch screen control on the 60" display.

    5. Re:Wild unfounded speculation: by exomondo · · Score: 1

      I highly doubt this and I'll tell you why.

      He said a variation of Windows 8, just like the original XBox OS was based on NT, just like Windows Phone is based on Windows CE, it doesn't make sense to write a new OS kernel for a device like that, just use the one you've got. That doesn't mean 'run Windows 8 on the XBox', it just means use some core pieces that already exist, pretty much all popular devices/systems do this.

  7. Simple explanation by nitehawk214 · · Score: 2

    Why pre-announce something that is far from being ready to ship? All that would do is steal sales and thunder away from your existing product. The only reason to announce a new console early is if a competitor is getting ready to release something significant enough to affect your market share. Seems like this is just an excuse for a fluff article.

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  8. Why release a new one? by who_stole_my_kidneys · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The current Xbox 360 is still generating massive amounts of revenue, http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_blog/archive/2012/01/12/xbox-360-extends-win-streak-to-12-straight-months-with-banner-holiday-sales.aspx, if they introduce a new platform, it will kill off the current version and forego the millions in additional revenue by extending the life of the 360. only when sales start to slump will the 720 be announced.

    1. Re:Why release a new one? by P-niiice · · Score: 1

      Funny, they're printing money even with piracy.

    2. Re:Why release a new one? by blackicye · · Score: 2

      The current Xbox 360 is still generating massive amounts of revenue, http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_blog/archive/2012/01/12/xbox-360-extends-win-streak-to-12-straight-months-with-banner-holiday-sales.aspx, if they introduce a new platform, it will kill off the current version and forego the millions in additional revenue by extending the life of the 360. only when sales start to slump will the 720 be announced.

      It's ok, because they will just suddenly pull the plug and cease all development for the Xbox 360 when the 720 is announced. Microsoft did this with the first get Xbox and I have the utmost confidence that they will do it again once their next gen is ready to be launched.

    3. Re:Why release a new one? by who_stole_my_kidneys · · Score: 1

      I would hope that they will give the Game devs a heads up before announcing the 720. So they can stop or finish development on 360 games before the announcement. who wants to buy a game for a dying console?

    4. Re:Why release a new one? by Grave · · Score: 1

      They did that with the first-gen XBOX because, quite frankly, the market share it held was tiny. Most devs were eager to jump to 360, and Microsoft was more than willing to help make that happen. The 360, however, has a significant market share, and if the story on the 360 Lite is accurate, this will encourage continued development of 360 titles for awhile.

    5. Re:Why release a new one? by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

      They only did that with the First Xbox as they had no choice. Nvidia were screwing them over big time and had iron clad licensing terms about what they could and could not do. MS did the only thing they could do, learnt their lesson and moved onto a new platform where they control the licensing terms for both software and hardware.

    6. Re:Why release a new one? by alen · · Score: 1

      so?

      there are lots of GOTY editions of awesome games to keep you playing for another few years. Mass Effect games, fallout, dragon age, etc. you can buy them cheap with all DLC included

    7. Re:Why release a new one? by exomondo · · Score: 1

      who wants to buy a game for a dying console?

      People who want to play the game and have the console? I don't see anything wrong with buying a game to play on a console about to be superseded.

  9. Wii? by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

    Sold about 20M more units but from what I've read in Business Week I think it was a few months ago the problem is in game sales. Those casual gamers tend to by a few games and then stop. XBox and PS3 gamers tend to by a few games a quarter. Wii has a lot of add ons too but I suspect XBox with Kinect and its higher initial price probably makes the hardware sales a wash but they sell more games.

    A bigger issue might be Kinect: maybe they don't have a new piece of hardware available yet and don't want to get caught being the company that releases the same accessory as the previous console confusing the argument for upgrading. They might end up coming out with it integrated in the console I suspect.

  10. Ya I've noticed two thigns about Wiis by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    First is that they tend to be an "and a" console. Meaning people seem to own one of the others "and a Wii". Ok, nothing wrong with that, but it does seem to be that it isn't so much competing and taking away the market for the other two, but living along with them. That does, of course, mean fighting in terms of getting game sales. People may well elect to buy for their other console.

    Second thing I've noticed is they don't seem to get used that much both by the people who have multiple consoles, and those that just have Wiis. They seem to get treated like board games in that they get played with a bit, but then put away only to be taken out for parties. Again, nothing wrong with that, but people don't seem to be buying a bunch of games for them. They get some at first but then set it aside

    This seems to be accelerating as the novelty of the motion control is wearing off.

    The Wii is not a failure, in any way shape or form, but it is not some massively dominant game platform.

  11. And why would I want to? by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    Why would I want to lose the ability to use my phone as, well, a phone to plug it in to my TV and play games or watch movies on it? I could instead just buy a device that plays games and does so better, and then keep my phone as a phone.

    To me this is like suggesting you get rid of your oven, toaster, kettle, and so on and only have a microwave. Yes, technically you can get along with just a microwave, it'll cook most things, with some potential issues and reservations. Or, you know, I could not get rid of those and keep different devices for different jobs.

    1. Re:And why would I want to? by gknoy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Try looking a little deeper into the crystal ball.

      If I can use my phone as a console, playing games on a large TV with a wireless controller, I am pretty certain that I'll also be able to use (or already wearing!) a wireless Bluetooth headset as well. The phone menu will allow me to answer my phone and chat to friends, or use Google+ Hangouts to have team based voice chat going. This doesn't seem like particularly far-fetched science fiction.

      As an added bonus, you can bring your phone with you to your friend's house, and access your apps, your saved progress, your controller settings, your favorite servers, etc. I think that would be extremely awesome. God help you if you lose it or someone steals it, of course, but by then I'll hope to have Steam For Phones that will let me re-download anything I've bought already. (Does the Android market do that already?)

    2. Re:And why would I want to? by sapphire+wyvern · · Score: 1

      The Android Market (now called Google Play) does let you re-download apps, yes. Basically, Google Play associates Android apps (and ebooks etc) with your Google account in the same way that the Steam store associates games with your Steam account.

      Just like Steam, Google Play only lets you re-download apps that you bought from them originally. (Yes, I know about Steam activations of retail software... I'm ignoring that for simplicity right now). If you sideload apps onto your phone, either by directly loading an apk or by using a third-party market app such as the Humble Indie Bundle downloader or the Amazon app store, you won't be able to download *those* apps from Google Play.

      Valve now does have a Steam app for Android, but they haven't entered the Android game-selling marketplace yet. I wouldn't be surprised if they do, though - it would be an obvious extension of their very successful Windows & Mac brand, and extending the Steam Play "buy one platform, get them all" deal to include Android versions of cross-platform games would be pretty sweet. But we're not going to see Steam selling iOS games any time soon, due to Apple's demanding a cut of all bits-for-bucks transactions that make use of "their" devices.

    3. Re:And why would I want to? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Your one of those guys that carries around a PDA, an MP3 Player, a video player, a DS, a pocket map, a gps, and a portable alarm clock along with your smartphone, aren't you? T-Mobile has commercial making fun of you right now.

    4. Re:And why would I want to? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try looking a little deeper into the crystal ball.

      Actually, you shouldn't look so deep. Look at the most obvious thing first: what makes a mobile device different than a stationary one, if mobile devices are getting powerful enough to do everything a stationary device does?

      Obvious answer: it's mobile.

      Sure, you *could* plug your phone to a TV, but that's not what most apps and games would be designed around. Most apps and games would be designed around people who use their phones as phones in their hands while they're on the move, not phones plugged in to a TV screen in their house where they might be playing a multiplayer game with friends on that same screen (so they have to share that screen)

      Similarly, many $1, good-for-a-few-minutes games are found on mobile: it's for people on the move who happen to have a few minutes to kill, not people with half an hour or more to sit through a session of dialogue filled cut scenes with bursts of FPS cover shooting or JRPG grinding

      I predict mobile gaming will establish its own market (it already has). Some parts might overlap with PC and console, and those markets might shrink, but they won't outright die. As long as humanity hasn't all turned into nomads, some people will still prefer to sit at home (ok ok, parents' basements ;p), playing games that primarily meant to be played a large screen

  12. Consolization by Bensam123 · · Score: 0

    If it wasn't for consolization MS and Sony would've had to have released a console by now to keep up with the demands of gamers, but consolization took over and all developers are doing for the most part is crapping out below par games (compared to computers). These games lowered the standards of both PC and console gamers and stagnated the entire industry at a certain level. This allowed MS and Sony to milk out their current generation to seven years currently and current gamers are stuck in the lethargy that games are 'good enough', 'graphics are good enough', 'I want to hold onto my investment for awhile longer', and all that jazz allowing the two b big ones to take advantage of such a situation.

    MS and Sony aren't going to release a new console in a forseable future till the pendelum swings back to PCs and people realize how awesome they are in comparison to ancient hardware running in their living room. Which will and is starting to happen as game developers realize that the whole 'PC gaming is dying' was a load of shit and there is plenty of money to be made on the PC, especially in the f2p genre... You can really thank TF2 and LoL for promoting that. Right before it swings back MS and Sony will release a new barrage of consoles to bring their console gamers back and attempt to solidify their position once again.

    I'm almost 100% positive they have a dynamic model they keep updating just waiting to be released at the right time in both camps. This isn't a war for making quality products, it's for milking as much as humanely possible from their original investment in a console (which really doesn't amount to much more then a custom computer and a bunch of marketing). They have no reason or goal to improve their old products besides offering buzz things like, motion controls the Wii hit a home run with and the equivalent of a Kinect. This is what happens when a company is given complete reign over their industry. Companies turn a profit, they aren't their to be innovative when they have nothing to compete with.

    Hopefully, and I really do mean hopefully, Valve will get it's act together and take Steam to the next level. A few self help videos showing people how they can hook their PCs up to their big screen TV and how easy it is to hook a x360 controller up to a said system (a fatal mistake MS made to promote consolization). This is in addition to features that just make gaming easier. Like making a open performance specification, not a static baseline that all games adhere to because hardware is so antiquated, but rather what level of performance a game will run at on your hardware.

    Giving each game a red/green/yellow sticker on their product page based on your hardware specifications. Red it wont run at all or really poorly, green it will run more then adequately (say 40fps without stutters or huge pitfalls longer them a certain MS), and yellow it will run with some stutters or may seem sluggish. Valve already harvests computers for their specs and they have the Steam overlay in place which could quite easily check FPS in game. This would be quite easy for Valve to implement as they have access to the biggest repository of hardware for gamers and performance data from it. For anyone else this would be almost unachievable.

    Breaking this up a bit, each red/green/yellow sticker could be hovered over and broken down into components showing the user what they need to upgrade in order to improve their experience. This would take a lot of the guesswork out of the hardware aspect, which is one of the marketing points for buying a console from MS or Sony and it'll allow game makers the freedom of producing a game to whatever specifications they want as per normal on a computer.

    It's things like this that empower users to play their games. The idea should be not to lock down the hardware, but offer a means of allowing users to see how their experience will vary on a case by case basis. Adding to this the planned big HTPC Steam interface can make a huge impact on how PC gaming is seen.

  13. An obvious dodge! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    </witty comment to substantiate witty title>

  14. Three vs. four red quadrants by tepples · · Score: 2

    I guess some people didn't know how to interpret the original Xbox 360's error indicator. It takes three red quadrants to make a Red Ring of Death, despite the name. A full red ring (four red quadrants) only means the video cable isn't pushed in all the way.

  15. The thumb can't feel where it is by tepples · · Score: 1

    a $1 smartphone/tablet game may be enough, why get a $200-300 console?

    Because smartphones and tablets are limited in the genres that they can do well. Touching objects on the screen, or sliding objects around on the screen? Great. Anything that scrolls, or otherwise would work best with a gamepad? Not so great. Puzzle games like Bejeweled? Great. Puzzle games like Tetris? Not so great. A touch screen is completely flat, meaning that unlike with a directional pad, an analog stick, or a set of buttons, the thumb can't feel where it is on the controller.

    It's like they don't want to sell for the PC at all unless you're hemorrhaging money.

    For one thing, an iPhone application's developer keeps 70 percent of the revenue after deducting $1000 for each Mac to run Xcode and $100 per year for the developer license. A developer of a game on a CD doesn't get nearly that high of a royalty.