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DHS Will Now Vet UK Air Passengers To Mexico, Canada, Cuba
First time accepted submitter illtud writes "From April, UK passengers flying to Mexico, Eastern Canada or Cuba will have to submit their details at least 72 hours before boarding to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security for pre-flight vetting (as all passengers to the U.S. itself have had to do for a while). If they find against you, you're not getting on the plane, even though you're not going to the U.S. The Independent (UK quality newspaper) has the story."
I actually believed it for a few seconds.... Oh, first post :)
This is an interesting step; in general countries are a lot more strict on entering their territory than leaving it. There are some circumstances where you'd want to control exit (if someone is fleeing law enforcement for some reason, avoiding child custody or the like), but I wonder if that's the intent of this policy shift or if it's something else.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
In UK first?
FUCK YEAH!
Hope this is an early April 1st post.
If not April fools then I would love to see a US court enforce this. Canada and the UK are both sovereign countries. Poor US losing its influence now beating up the few countries that barely care about it.
... and here's how. "Oh, you won't comply? Guess you don't want your airline to have landing rights in the US, then."
The US, unfortunately, can get away with extortion. I live in Canada and have family in the United States, but this is seriously offputting. I think it's time to boycott travel to the US until they back away from this kind of insanity.
This is either an April fool's joke or an act of war against Cuba, Canada, Mexico and the UK.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I'm a mature, naturally calm person never prone to profane outbursts, but the U.S. needs to fuck off.
Has to be April fools, from what I remember; its a violation of EU privacy laws to share passenger information with any 3rd party not directly involved with flight scheduling.
is it?
This has been going on in Canada for years now. Even if you aren't landing IN the States, so long as you fly OVER you are subject to screening. My father spoke to someone at the airport one day who was not cleared by DBS, but still managed to get on his flight to the Carribean. His plane had mechanical problems and was forced to land in Florida. When he got off the plane he was met by law enforcement, who read him the riot act and took him directly to jail. He waited there overnight, then was put ona plane home.
Living in southern Ontario, it is pretty much impossible not to fly over the states, even for domestic flights. That means we are all screwed by US rules, living in another country. Our freedom is limited by their assinine rules.
We emerge from our mother's womb an unformatted diskette; our culture formats us. - Douglas Coupland
Even though the flights may be landing in Canada or Mexico, there's still a good chance they will fly over U.S. airspace. As annoying and paranoid the U.S. policies tend to be, they do have a right to control flights over their airspace.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
It's another example of America shooting itself in the foot. There is already unease in the UK over what is widely seen as an unfair one sided extradition treaty. You can be extradited from the UK for doing something that is legal under UK law but in the USA but it doesn't apply the other way around. There has been a special feeling towards America in the UK but that is slowly changing with what is seen as heavy handedness. When the Brits start turning against the Yanks you know America is in trouble long term.
Not a joke: Published: Monday 26 March 2012
The article starts out with...
Emphasis mine. This statement is what is supposed to re-assure us that it's ridiculous.
( Not to say that it isn't, but keep reading... )
Emphasis again mine. So here's the twist. If you fly through a particular nation's airspace, are you 'steering clear of' that nation's territory?
Wikipedia (don't worry, dictionaries appear to agree) states...
Emphasis once again mine.
Their airspace, their rules. Some flights not too long ago were probably barred from entering Polish airspace as well and had to skim along its borders for its flight.
( http://twitter.com/#!/flightradar24/statuses/128071958293266432 )
It's still ridiculous because it makes little sense. Not just because of the notion that you wouldn't actually set afoot in said territory, but because the few cases in which you might (such as an emergency requiring diverting to one of that nation's airports) also apply to many other routes that don't cross that airspace but still come close enough for the pilots to decide to, or be forced to, land there - security clearance issues or no security clearance issues.
It's still very, very scary: rttnews.com .
They just say the flight that are not vetted cannot enter us airspace. London to havana doesn't really have to enter US airspace.
Neither does London to Mexico. Its just quicker and more fuel efficient that way. The US wont get that info
from Cubana airlines so its kinda pointless to ask from the other airlines.
Any flight to London to Toronto flies over New York and Boston so yeah anyone on a flight that
flies over the US northeast SHOULD be vetted.
This is a common sense issue that those having (here he goes again) plaques on the wall don't (want to) understand. If there is enough fuel on that aircraft to reach those destinations, to the terrorist that means there is enough fuel to fly into a building somewhere in the USA.
underfuckingstand you educated and enlightened?
==//==
The people with the British accents are the bad guys.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Twenty first century schizoïd man...
You people are all insane.
Period.
Self contradicting article. Summary says "even for flights hundreds of miles from American airspace" and then the article says "air routes that over-fly US airspace". So which is it?
... and in the DRM, bind them.
This only applies to UK-departing flights so far?
Paris would have a few flights to Montreal, Madrid to Mexico City and Havana, no?
Anyway, as far as 'no-fly' lists go, I'd be shocked if UK and USA intelligence services weren't sharing databases already. This theatre just serves to piss off anyone buying tickets within 3 days of travel when existing controls such as immigration, checkin and boarding serve to validate one's passport electronically 3 times before boarding a flight.
you can't fly to cuba from the US directly anyway, so canadian flights for example must go around US airspace.
Flights between Canada and Cuba are not required to travel around US air space. That is not at all required.
One example is a recent Air Canada flight from Toronto to Havana. I'm not sure how long this link will work beyond today, but the flight clearly travels over
New York, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Florida.
As an American from the midwest who travels a lot, this is an even bigger encitement for me to travel less by plane. The biggest issue for me is convincing my employer to give me four days to drive to Utah and back instead of flying out on a Friday night and flying back on Sunday. If I can leave on Thrursday afternoon, conslidate meetings, leave Sunday morning, and return Monday afternoon, I might be able to convince them. The biggest issue from my perspective is that I drive my own car, I will not be responsible for any delays, and I now believe that I am in more control than the TSA over any hard information that I am bringing to my clients. I can't wait for the mandatory traffic stops while crossing state lines. I witnessed a smaller version of the same the other day, while driving north from Central Ave. in MPLS. When I got to Columbia Heights, there was a small cadre of police who appeared to be doing random stops and car checks on Central. I served my guy about ten blocks north, and then had to go back. I was prepared to call my lawyer, even though I had nothing close to illegal in my car. I drove past the checkpoint and was not pulled over. I'm suprised that the local cops didn't have my license plate because I have recently posted on slashdot and pull me over. F ying sucks, now taking a train or driving a car might suck just as much. Vote for the least worst option no longer works. Put your shit together and vote for some real people in the next election.
Koalas. They're telepathic. Plus, they control the weather. -Margaret
Using the same costing the US-based government/corporation is so fond of applying, those countries can charge the US a 'lost income' fee because that tourist isn't isn't spending money in their country.
This is simply extending the TSA and their no-fly list to other countries. How does the UK justify this? I know data security doesn't exist in the USA. An airline handing UK customer details to another country probably violates EU law.
I suspect the flights to Canada have more to due with the fact that the border between Canada and the US is fairly porous. The US is concerned with people getting into Canada and then sneaking across the largely undefended border so in the past couple of years they have been stepping up coordination of border/immigration security. Since this is a bilateral effort, what I suspect is going on is that the Canadian government is telling airlines they have to clear their passengers with US's DHS.
So won't that just make people fly through Toronto?
If the US wishes to set up some anti terror coalition and get countries to willingly cooperate in a joint effort, that's great. But the US doesn't have the right to demand flight information from passangers flying between totally different countries. Sure, they can request it... they can ask really nicely. But they can't demand it.
Further, 72 hours is way too long. The nofly list should be something that can be checked by computer instantly. If my credit card can be scanned and my account adjusted then tell me why the no fly list can't be checked automatically? If the provided data doesn't match the no fly list data then let them through. Sure, bad people might lie about their information or have fake IDs but the 72 hours isn't going to help catch those people in any case. So why the delay?
I suspect the TSA's software is garbage. Set the system up for easy polling and so every registered airline can automatically file their passenger list before take off. The system should be so fast that no delay is required.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
10 years ago, I was already happily living in Mexico, my own country, 9.11 creates the non-stop paranoia, and USA starts treating its own tourists like thugs, do you really expect me to submit to all that embarrassment? NO WAY! so I settle with meeting all those happy Canadians and gringos that visit my home country because WE have the good weather while you freeze heh
I still remember the look on the morons face when I went to cancel my US citizenship, it is not necessary, because this other littler country, does respect my human rights!
The roman empire fell to its knees, and this time the gringo empire is on its knees and the prople responsible are not able to realize it!
btw gringos, America is a continent with 35 countries, here is a list jackass!
Anguila Honduras Antigua y Barbuda Islas Caimán Argentina Islas Georgias del Sur y Sandwich del Sur35
Aruba Islas Malvinas35 Bahamas Islas Turcas y Caicos Barbados Islas Vírgenes Británicas
Belice Islas Vírgenes de los Estados Unidos Bermudas Jamaica Bolivia Martinica
Bonaire México Brasil Montserrat Canadá Navaza Chile Nicaragua
Clipperton Panamá Colombia Paraguay Costa Rica Perú Cuba Puerto Rico
Curazao Saba Dominica San Bartolomé República Dominicana San Cristóbal y Nieves
Ecuador Santa Lucía El Salvador San Martín Estados Unidos San Pedro y Miquelón
Granada San Vicente y las Granadinas Groenlandia Sint Eustatius Guadalupe Sint Maarten
Guatemala Surinam Guayana Francesa Trinidad y Tobago Guyana Uruguay Haití Venezuela
The sad thing is I actually considered this story possible with how the US strongarms the rest of the world in general.
in the laundry list of reasons I as a professionally trained engineer need to emigrate somewhere other than America.
we can have a constitution and a declaration that insist freedom for all and open arms to the tired weary who yearn to exchange nitrogen oxygen mixtures without oppression, sure. but what i find particularly offensive is that the zeal with which we trample over everything we proudly declare to despotic and non-despotic countries alike as "true democracy" in the pursuit of stopping terrorism.
Terrorism, for those unfamiliar with the vernacular as used in the american context, is the act which kills far fewer americans than diabetes and heart attacks "from sea to shining sea" every year. It is the mere utterance from whch blossoms carte-blanc policing not seen since the third reich of everything from trains to busses, your private automobile, and even the god damn Dodgers baseball stadium.
The irony of course, notwithstanding the staggaringly disproportional comparative death rates between disease and 'terror', is that we as a nation have trumpeted things like warrantless detention, search, and seisure as a cause against the american way for so long its become a 4x4 drum beat behind every political speach since taft.
part of me, as an american, yearns for this warrantless detention, that it may serve as a much needed nail in the coffin to which i have laid my patriotism. The other half would rather it not, for fear it would preclude my gainful employment and thus my credit, to which my entire life as an american is inextricably bound.
Good people go to bed earlier.
I would like to see what the airlines do when they're taken to an EU court for breach of EU privacy laws.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/agents.shtm#secflght
Secure Flight Program: Overflight Overview and the Overflight Table for Third-Party Providers
http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/SFP_Overflight_Overview_Table.pdf
Fuck You.
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Fuck you and April 1st.
You can't expect US citizens to take action on your behalf. If their government is displeasing you, then YOU must get up off your ass and do something about it.
And posting on slashdot does not count as taking action.
UK Citizen are subjects of the Queen and the US DHS!
What a rot.
So, prey tell, when will UK Citizens pay taxes to USA and when will the burning of Washington DC re-occur.
Well, I do not for one think UK citizens will pay a pience of tax to USA, but the burning of Washington DC (along with deaths of its citizens) in the next 6 months is a good bet.
Go Obama!
piss off other wise
No? You must be one of the lucky ones without oil.
Deleted
Isn't it time that the rest of the world started to stand up to the American nazi police state? I certainly don't want them having my details, particularly given that they are grossly incompetent, and can randomly deport individuals from my country (UK), without any due process or evidence - even when they have committed no crime here. I wouldn't fancy anyones chances with the US justice system, which appears to be grossly corrupt, and heavily politicised. Even supreme court judges in the United States are political appointments. I wouldn't be surprised if the US regime was randomly snatching innocent individuals, and sticking them in the primitive inhumane hells that are US prisons (incidently, the US has also been kidnapping foreign nationals, on foreign soil). What a rotten system. I'm glad I don't live there. Frighteningly the tentacles of US corporate totalitarianism are furthering their reaches.
There is never any justification for the increase in the size of the security apparatus of a state. The moment that you begin to use 'security' to justify restriction of peoples' liberties, is the moment that terror/your enemies have won, and taken away your democracy. You now live in a totalitarian state. The United States is long past this point. US democracy is long dead and buried. Welcome to a hell of your own making. It is going to take a long time for America to recover from its current state. If it ever can, it will be both poor, and divided. The Soviets bankrupted the United States. The US was just able to borrow more, for longer, than the Russians were, due to the unique position of the dollar as a reserve currency. For the United States, the debt is stupendous, and GDP massively artificially inflated by the extreme borrowing. Recovery will be long and difficult, as creditors strip the US bare (will the US regret supporting the rotten world bank/IMF policies then, as americans riot in the streets?)
This applies to Canada from the UK, if you had a brain and ever got out of your mothers basement you would know that you fly to the American continent via a northern route even if you got to go to the South of USA. Now, Canada is WHERE on the American continent? Why would you fly PAST Canada into the US on your way to Canada?
This is NOT about passing over a country or landing at an airport, this is about a flight that doesn't cross US territory and the US demanding to have anything to do with it. These UKCanada flights won't even appear on US traffic control radar screens.
It shows just how much of a control freak the US has become and how of a lapdog the UK is.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
The UK is a sovereign country, sure, but Canada is more like the 51st state.
ummm, no. we are not.
He is right, silly AHuxley. Thinking the UK is a sovereign country. The correct term is vassal state.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
So I'm flying from London to Halifax Nova Scotia, I'm not going over US airspace. It might be an important trip, I might be emigrating (and so leaving my job, and expected to start a new one in Canada) and have a specific time window during which I have to be in the country by, both for a future employer and due to the way the emigration rules work.
I wont be told until I arrive at the airport and try to get on the plane if someone with my name is on the another countries do not fly list. A country that I've not been to ever. The international flights sell out, I have to book in advance and they cost an arm and a leg.
What are you supposed to do if you get turned away? Didn't a US senator spend ages trying to get off the do not fly list because someone with a similar name was on it? What chance do I have to my name off that list in any reasonable timescale (or even at all)? Remember that I'm not flying over or going to the US, but the flight from the UK to Halifax is covered by this. The only option seems to be to book a cheap hotel and rush around searching for a gap on the next cargo shipping vessel (people think they are cheaper but if you check they are expensive as you're essentially paying for accommodation for a few weeks) and hoping it leaves within the next month before your money runs out?
Why now? (I don't mean April Fools day, but this year).
<tinfoil_hat>
Maybe this new rule is enforced now because in Canada the elected(???) Harper government is the recipient of the ensuing shit-storm and will threaten to spank the USA with a wet noodle in retaliation.
</tinfoil_hat>
For the UK's David Cameron it doesn't matter so much as long as it doesn't interfere with the London City Banks; Mexico's people in power, the Zetas, probably don't care and Cuba is too small to matter and relations between it and the USA won't suffer much more from this anyway.
In the UK, the Independent is NOT regarded as part of the "tabloid press".
As with most papers nowadays, the form factor is tabloid, for convenience and and to a certain extent, for cost cutting. However, the ethos of the Independent is firmly that of the news and considered opinion "quality" press like the Daily Telegraph, the Guardian and (god help us) the Times.
The British "tabloid" press in the sense of sensationalism and celebrity include (in order of decreasing sanity) The Daily Mail, The Daily Express, The Daily Mirror, The Star and at the botton of the scumbag heap, the Sun.
Demand the same information for flights within the USA that pass within 150 miles of their borders ? If they did - would the USA oblige ?
Or wait for April Fool's day to wear off.
Sadly, the article is dated 26th of March. It was also shared on Twitter and commented on that day.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
WTF???? From time to time I fly to Europe and back, usually via the UK. What the hell does my travel have to do with the US and their overly paranoid reaction to air travel security? Does the TSA not have enough to do? This is probably going to have some impact on tourism here. Maybe the US is willing to take a tourism travel hit because people aren't willing to go through ridiculous border controls, but why should we?
Can't Canada, Mexico, and the UK simply say "no" to this? It's one thing to be nice via bilateral arrangements, so that people traveling to the USA get screened before getting there, and vice-versa. That's an obvious and reasonable courtesy. But when people's flightplan and destination don't even cross US territory at all, why?
And why is western Canada exempt? TSA logic fail?
In my last trip to Dominique republic from Europe I made the bad decisions to chose a flight with transit connection in Miami. Even being a transit connection we were photographed, finger printed and had to fill up exhaustive forms. It took 3 hours to get to the connection flight! Almost lost it.
Never again fly through the US.
The Monroe Doctrine is alive and well.
For the first time in my adult life, I am truly ashamed to be an American.
You mean a biased, lying, window-peeping rag?
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Seems to me that the UK should forbid our carriers from complying with this.
.. and you have just described exactly why I will never be visiting the US.
It isn't the lack of money: I earn $100K
It isn't the lack of time: I get 4 weeks leave per year
It isn't the lack of inclination: There are several places in the US I'd really like to see, and people I'd like to meet whom I have known for years online
So what is it?
Airport theatre. The thought of being groped and felt up by a TSA agent is enough to never go near America, let alone entry the country. The reports on what you do to your own citizens in airports are terrible.. and I would hate to see what they would do if non-American citizens refuse to be molested.
Body Scanners. They have installed them here, so I will get a radiation dose on the way out, and on the way back, and have my private parts added to the porn collections of two countries. No. Fuck off. If you want pornographic images of me you damn well better pay me and meet my price: $50M if you want to pay. You pay that, I and I will allow you a once off opportunity to take pornographic images of me with your radiation machine. Otherwise: Fuck you.
American "rights". I don't want to be jailed for taking a photo of the empire state building. I don't want to be tazered for taking a picture and accidentally getting the mug shot of a police officer. There are any number of ways to be nailed by police and other organisations in american today and none of this hassle is worthwhile. Fuck you. Obviously you don't want tourists.
Requiring extensive personal information including FINGERPRINTS to enter the US. No. Fuck off. No one gets my fingerprints. Not unless you first accuse me of a crime. Taking fingerprints happens to criminals, no citizens. Let me say it again: Fuck you.
Do you really think your country is so good that people will sneak in sideways? If so, then you are demonstrating your lack of control over immigration issues.
Do you really need me and my money? Not really. I accept that withholding my money from you as a tourist won't hurt america in the short medium or long term. But. It's not just me. It is a lot of people like me who make the difference here. Before I even step foot in your country you are pissing me off. Congratulations. You win. You succeed in your plan to put me off ever setting foot in your county.
America: Feel free to close your borders and refuse to let anyone in or out.
Same goes for Japan, for similar reasons. You don't need my fingerprints for me to enter your country and spend money. Fuck you too.
Imperialist B******, with every passing day there is more reason to hate the US, and they (the US) wonder why they are so hated.
Countries yes, but states no.
If you were actually entering US airspace then fine - the US gets to set its own rules. However explain to me how you enter US airspace between Calgary and London. I have taken this flight many times and the closest you come to US airspace is when you take off/land in Calgary. At no point are you any closer than that and since you fly over Edmonton and Red Deer on the way in if you needed to divert from Calgary you would end up there not over the US border like you might for Vancouver which is extremely close to the border.
If the UK and Canadian governments want to collaborate with the US and ban people on the US no flight list (on the basis that we don't want people likely to be linked to terrorism on our planes any more than they do) then that's fine - but it should be our choice, not the US', if the flight has no reasonable probability of going into US airspace during normal operation. I was hoping that this was an April Fool but since the article is dated 26th March I sadly think it has to be true.
And here I thought the Bush administration was drunk with power. I thought Obama was smarter than Bush and would at least know where US law was applicable, you would almost think Obama has the belief that American law is supreme across the globe.
Time to offend someone
One Qantas flight I took out of Australia, they played a long and boring recording about how smoking would not be permitted at any time on the flight because [blah blah Australian law]. The instant we were out of Australian airspace they turned off the no-smoking sign and announced that the smoking section was to the rear of the aircraft. Shortly after that they started selling duty free cigarettes. And Qantas is even an Australian carrier.
That will never happen.
The loss on income and bad PR would be huge.. over what?
Imagine that you came home tonight, turned on the telly and saw a news report stating: "US NO LONGER ALLOWS UK PLANES TO LAND BECAUSE US DEMANDS PERSONAL INFORMATION FROM ONE PASSENGER IT HAS NO RIGHT TO HAVE - MILLIONS OF POUNDS IN JOBS AND WAGES LOST - TOURIST INDUSTRY TO SUE - MORE IN ONE HOUR"
Right.
No.
It isn't going to happen. It's a threat, the US is being a bully and several countries are caving. This is the start of tyranny.
You're about 8 times more likely to be killed by a cop than a terrorist.
Then there's this: (please print this link Slashdot it's a graphic illustrating my point)
http://therandomtexan.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/terror-risk-baffler1.jpg
It's all a fake ruse to distract the public from the real problems and the real dangers, like DU, Fukushima, the crumbling dollar, the criminal out of control private federal reserve that in a recent audit was found to have given money to all kinds of tin pot dictators, including Ghaddafi, who they then had to "get". $16 trillion in total. So you tell me, is the real necessary expenditure in tracking and controlling average citizens and stripping them of their rights while the governments flagrantly abandon the rule of law as it applies to them and apply it with extreme discretion towards innocent citizens (like people who milk cows - see rawsome foods raid) OR would that money be better spent given back to the people AND used to hold our criminal crony, anti-capitalist, anti-freedom, anti-human, pro debt slavery governments accountable?
It's a JOKE that we need protecting from terrorism. Why doesn't the media cover this? Because they're owed by the same cowards who own the other cowards in office.
the most ridiculous thing yet to come out of USA
i view this as a gross infringement on my privacy
Better do as you told.
How can a 3rd. party (In the case the US government) restrict travelers from 1 sovereign country to another if they are not using US company owned planes?