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Interview With TSA Screener Reveals 'Fatal Flaws'
OverTheGeicoE writes "Jonathan Corbett, creator of the video showing that TSA's body scanners can't see metal objects on our sides, has a new video out. This time he's interviewing an experienced TSA screener identified only as 'Jennifer,' and her allegations point to 'fatal flaws' in TSA and its procedures. Worse, TSA's screeners are well aware of these flaws. According to Jennifer, body scanners frequently fail to detect objects on passengers, and this flaw is well known to the screeners on the job. People with visible items in their pockets can pass through scanners without detection, even when the items are simulated weapons or explosives. Jennifer also alleges that training for screeners is severely lacking. Screeners are directed to operate body scanners, even the X-ray scanners, without any training whatsoever. The manual of standard operating procedures often can't be found at the checkpoints, let alone read. Jennifer was so alarmed by what she experienced that she wrote her congressional representative to complain. She was ultimately fired as a result, effective yesterday."
How come people in the US can get fired for reasons other than incompetence or stealing? Why can a person get fired simply by raising an issue? I never hear about this here in Europe. It's in fact very difficult to fire a person here if he is a good worker.
They arent there to stop weapons or explosives.
Jennifer was so alarmed by what she experienced that she wrote her congressional representative to complain. She was ultimately fired as a result, effective yesterday.
You see, firing her is expressive of their wish to carry out retribution against anyone who dares criticise them; so it's their right under the first amendment. She should have just shut up and done as she was told.
is standard...
I have worked a lot of my years as a security guard at hotels and in the army, and both my brothers are now security guards, one at a mall and the other at an airport. The one thing that has struck us about this line of work is often the complete lack of interest in doing a good job, just do it well enough not to get fired.
These scanners were intended to provide Michael Chertoff with job security. Any security gain for the traveling public is incidental at best and probably negligable in practice. But, from Chertoff's standpoint, I think they are working just fine.
Under capitalism, power is consolidated, the most powerful buy influence in government, then the government either wages war to promote their interests or allows them to siphon off Treasury money.
There is no way to stop this except by not having capitalism. No amount of ideology about how good capitalism SHOULD be will change humans from how they actually behave when they have a lot of power.
You would think she would be protected under a whistleblower protection law, but as the wiki states -"Whistleblowing is complex patchwork of contradictory laws within the US." (see wiki here), but they can always find another reason to get rid of her.
There is no need for them to do a good job at identifying threats because it is rather unlikely that anything happens anyway. But a good bombing every now and then gets people panicking and throw money at useless security measures and tighten surveillance on everyone. Its a win win situation, if you happen to be provider of "security". Now imagine we had perfect security and no one could ever attack a plane, that would mean no justification for even more funding or crazy surveillance, everybody loses. Well everybody that sells security and surveillance.
So I think they are doing the right thing here. The more money they take the better everybody ( that sells security ).
The TSA wasn't created to protect the people, it was created to humiliate and break them down into acceptance of a police state, just like the "strip search for any crime" SCOTUS decision was.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Yes I know, trolling and all but
Thank You Obama; he managed to turn a really bad Bush ieda and make it even worse.
So, next time you liberals get molested by the TSA, make sure to offer your pray of thanks to the Obama. (Cause Im sure if it was a Repub in the oval office you would be screaming to high hell).
Yes I fed up with the bullsh*t one party system.
Let's pray somebody somewhere takes the blinders off, even if by accident, or it's only a matter of time until we see a TSA check point at every bus station. Dam... I hope I didn't give them any ideas !
Just saying...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Michael_Chertoff,_official_DHS_photo_portrait,_2007.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1968-101-20A,_Joseph_Goebbels.jpg
Look, I dislike the TSA as much as anybody, and I've complained about it to my representatives, and I hope it dies as quickly as possible, but everything about this story annoys me.
A guy with an obvious bias against an entity interviews a recently-fired employee, and uncovers terrible details about that entity! Oh no! Who could have guessed?
The ex-employee's letter to Congress was the reason she got fired - in a time span of one week. Right. I'm sure the Congressman has their interns sorting mail, looking for disgruntled employees, notifying the appropriate chain of supervisors, and working hard to get people fired - and they can get that done in under a week.
No SOP manual? Hey, at least you know one's been written somewhere. You could ask your supervisor, or move up the chain to their supervisor, and so on, until you find out where you can get one. There's no sign that that was attempted, just an "I don't know where it was" statement.
As much as I want to see the TSA dismantled, this interview isn't going to help. It sounds like a muckraker interviewing someone incapable of navigating office politics, who's skirting the system because she got fired, looking to become a martyr for self-justification. This isn't journalism.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
It IS incompetence; It is incompetence of the employer.
"Waitress I need two more boat-drinks..."
inb4 "Jennifer" is identified and prosecuted under the espionage act for blowing the whistle on national security matters that are to dangerous for us to know.
And depending on how we feel, throw Corbett in there too. At least ruin his life for daring to criticize authority.
Disclaimer: There would be a time where this joke would be obvious.
"Science can amuse and fascinate us all, but it is engineering that changes the world. " - Asimov.
If you think you suffer at the hands of the TSA (literally), just imagine what will be done to "Jennifer" each time she tries to board a plane.
like a child - who's the responsible adult in charge?
I've personally been on quite a few flights with a knife like this by just forgetting it was in my carry-on, and never once been taken away:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=202202099&R=202202099
The blade folds into the metal case so it doesn't show up on scanners or x-rays...
She was ultimately fired as a result, effective yesterday.
All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances
How the hell does that make sense, she finally spoke up that the system is broken and got fired? What should of happened is she got a promotion to overlook proper training and proper system implementation. When people sit back and just ignore what doesn't work nothing gets fixed. Even if it's not a big deal issue you should still stand up and say "Hey I need to know why" or "I think this is wrong", if your wrong then fine but at least you know why your wrong and if your right your really doing your job.
What really bugs me about this is how the US is almost a repressive dictating communist nation when it comes to airport security but then the security is broken!
It's all just security theature anyway. It was put in place to create the illusion of safety and security to the sweaty masses of sheeple.
....detect weapons and explosives? Weren't they designed just to radiate people to help cause cancer in a population reduction effort?
Why is the TSA whose mandate is to keep aircraft safe looking for drugs?
Having a joint is of no threat to the aircraft and they shouldn't be wasting their time.
How does that happen? The congressman would not only have to violate the trust of his constuituent, but actually care enough to let the TSA know. If this violation of trust got out, it could seriously harm his career.
Could this actually be unrelated? I'd be more readily convinced that the sick leave was related. This would be a problem in itself perhaps but not a security problem.
Your argument is appealing and does make sense. Having visited the US, I would be surprised if all the horror stories from the media is just business as usual.
And yes, European countries do protect workers more, but much of this protection is negotiated by free marked powers (ie. unions and employers).
IMO the system of "consenting mutually beneficial relationships" without powerful unions fails to benefit the small man.
Especially, when big (greedy) business is involved.
Any x-ray is dangerous.
I miss the days of paying cash for a ticket **after** I've sat in the seat and being able to travel without giving my name.
Just went through international checks at USA airports in the last few weeks - Atlanta and JFK. Leaving was just a normal magnetic check - my tablet+keyboard confused the screener. She said it was a laptop .... which it isn't. She demanded it be re-scanned.
For the rest of the trip, I pulled the tablet out like a laptop and was hassled.
I also travel with an aluminum water bottle. Nobody ever asked me to open it.
I looked at the x-ray images and can see how a trained human is needed there, but the human brain will be looking for ways that common things "fit" the displayed image, not for ways that commonly looking things can be dangerous.
I'm good with the x-ray of my items. It isn't a bad thing. I'm not good with limiting commonly used/carried items on a plane that pose zero risk, like a tiny pocket knife, toenail clippers or contact lens solution larger than 4oz. The TSA really needs a leave-a-knife - take-a-knife program for each airport too. I've had 3 keyring knives taken ... used to commute on private planes weekly with my pocket knife (and forgot to leave it at home on a commercial flight). GONE.
Leaving an eastern European country about 10 days ago, I was selected for a pat down screening. It happened twice - once in public and again in a nearby shielded area. Two different men did it and I don't think they liked it anymore than me. It appeared that I was pre-selected, since I couldn't print my boarding pass from the hotel the day before, but both my travel companions could. I was deeply offended during and after the pat down, but it happened on foreign soil, so I can't easily sue them. The men did not "grab my junk".
If any citizen has to go through this type of check, then **every** government official needs to go through it every time they fly. Senators, Congress-people, Presidents, Ambassadors, diplomats, and all law enforcement people. Every time they fly. Every time.
BTW, I hold a security clearance and the FBI has a large file on me. I'm not an unknown person.
We need for more citizens around the world to say, "NO MORE!" just like we were able to stop stupid laws with a concerted effort, we need to stand up against this theater.
During that same overseas trip, I took multiple trains - including an overnight train. I don't recall seeing any security in the train stations at all. Though 1 of my companions was pick-pocketed somewhere in Barcelona (don't really know where; Parc Guell?) and a day later his smart phone was brazenly stolen while we ate in the back room of a restaurant - over 30 feet from the entrance. He had just finished copying all the credit card numbers from his stolen wallet out of it.
A study released this week says that dentists x-rays caused a strong increase in brain cancer. Any levels of x-rays are harmful to humans. I will "opt-out" of those scanners, always, even if it means having my junk grabbed.
Had profits.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Just recently took a flight from PHL to SAT. I had to take off my shoes, walk through a metal detector with my belt off, then had my carry on bag taklen out of the xray scanner and opened up and scrutinized because my "contact lens solution wasn't in a TSA specified plastic bag". Eventually I was cleared, but when I got to my destination and unpacked, I discovered that in the outside pocket of my carry on was a steel multi tool I forgot was in there - complete with a 5 inch and a 4 inch blade. Remeber, this is the same bag that went through the xray TWICE, and then was HAND SEARCHED
Security theatre? You bet. We need to do this like the Israelis do; they catch this kind of stuff in the parking lot before the culprits even get IN the terminal. But then again, they don't have the added burden of politcally correct calls against "racial profiling". But they also don't have long security lines...OR any security scares in their airports.
Considering the pay, firing TSA agents wouldn't do any good. With a starting pay band of $17,000-$25,000 a year, firing incompetents would only mean you would have to replace them with *untrained* incompetents. The TSA is run like a glorified fast-food restaurant, and it shows.
What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
Well, I have the privilege (I guess) to go through the new scanners last week, and as I always do on trips, I wore clothes that have not a single piece of metal on them, and I also ensure that I have nothing in pockets, etc, so the scanner should not be able to find a single thing. I stood on the foot outlines as requested, raised my arms with a slight bend as requested, and as I left the scanner, I was told that I needed to go through a pat-down screening due to some alarm.
I questioned the agent about what exactly the machine indicated was wrong (after he completed the pat-down without finding anything), and he simply replied: "We just do what the machine tells us to do - it said you didn't pass, so we needed to do a pat-down. We don't question the machine - I don't know how it works.'
Since the scanner is clearly able to fail to accurately determine that I did not have anything on my body other than regular cloth clothing, I spoke to the supervisor about how I can just opt for a pat-down next time since their machine is simply a nuisance anyway, and clearly gives results that make no sense. I got the same story: "We just do what the machine tells us to do - if it says you failed, we need to do a pat-down." Another 4-5 minutes of essentially asking the same question in different ways resulted in finally being told that I can just tell the person at the machine that I opt out of the scanner, and then they will do a pat-down.
I guess we ought to feel safer now that they are using technology that they do not understand and that has some major flaws as the article and my own experiences show.
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
Of course they have long, long lines. I went through Tel Aviv last year, the airport was practically empty, in terms of flight volume, but it still took over 3 hours to get off one plane and onto another, going through the much vaunted Israeli security.
And the number of screeners was enormous. Israel has a very small volume to handle compared to even a medium sized U.S. or European airport.
TLV handles about 13 million passengers/year. Compare Atlanta at 92 million, Heathrow at 69, LAX at 62, etc. TLV isn't even in the top 30. In the US, that's in the same class as Baltimore/Washington, San Diego, Honolulu, etc.
You must be new here.
It is all theatre.
The threat theatre cast by the politicos creates the market for the TSA theatre.
You are not likely to die by terrorist act. You are more likely to die by automobile accident, heart attack, stroke ......
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm
* Heart disease: 599,413
* Cancer: 567,628
* Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353
* Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842
* Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021
* Alzheimer's disease: 79,003
* Diabetes: 68,705
* Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692
* Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935
* Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,909
Official 911 death toll : 2,996 - and that does not happen every year.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_04.pdf
The 15 leading causes of death in 2010 (Table B) were as follows:
1 Diseases of heart
2 Malignant neoplasms
3 Chronic lower respiratory diseases
4 Cerebrovascular diseases
5 Accidents (unintentional injuries)
6 Alzheimer’s disease
7 Diabetes mellitus
8 Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis
9 Influenza and pneumonia
10 Intentional self-harm (suicide)
11 Septicemia
12 Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis
13 Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal disease
14 Parkinson’s disease
...tell the Emperor that his "new clothes" are not real, and that he's actually stark raving naked,
or you will get your head chopped off.
For me this was no big surprise. I have accidentally brought all sorts of easy to detect with x-ray or metal detectors items through security. My pocket knives have gone through the metal detector on a few occasions, the larger one being a brass handled lock blade with a 4" blade. In my carry on I have sent through my straight edge razors a few times forgetting to not pack them, as well as sending through the x-ray machine shotgun and rifle ammunition that was forgotten about in coat pockets after hunting. Things like this should have been easy to detect, but those are never found but every time I send my old metal chassis SLR through then it is time for the manual inspection. It has long been obvious that they have little to no training and that their screening doesn't work.
Time to offend someone
Pffft...I don't know where you're from, but here in America we promote our incompetent people, and the theives are moved into positions of rank. Who would you rather have run your team of engineers, the engineer who gives a crap about safety over profits or the business major who steals juice boxes from the fridge?
In reality, it is a sad state of affairs in American businesses that if your fired for incompetence you have more recourse to sue the employer for wrongful termination (using past performance reviews, performance metrics, e-mails showing you did what you were asked, even when asked to do conflicting tasks) over termination due to whistleblowing (causing direct harm or malicious action towards the company).
The way you fire an employee in America is to promote them to a higher position with a "sink-or-not-drown" attitude. You backfill the empty position with a competent employee and let the incompetent "manage" or do whatever. Those that don't immediately drown are put into the "fat" category until the next round of mass layoffs in a 5-year period when they are eventually cut.
As for stealing...If you can BS good enough and are friends with the right people you can get away with anything in a business. Including "borrowing" from another employee. Those people are "fast-tracked" for their talking skills. Those are the desired skills to get people to donate their time for unpaid overtime hours.
We have states that have are called "Employment-at-will" laws which provides that in the absence of a contract to the contrary, neither an employer nor an employee is required to give notice or advance notice of termination or resignation.
One last thing in my TL:DR post. My roommate in college took an entry-level position in Chicago upon graduation. He moved halfway-accross the country to the city where he knew nobody, got his apartment, bought a new car, and worked at his new job. He liked it and was really happy there. His girlfriend graduated the next semester and was going to move out there with him, so he only took a 6-month lease in case they wanted to move. When he went to renew the lease he found out they wouldn't renew since he was no longer employed (he found out on Wednesday from the landlord). He thought it was a mistake and worked with HR who assured him he was still employed there...until Friday when a mass layoff hit, taking him out along with a couple hundred other employees.
Large (distinction here) American companies treat employees like commodities to be bought and sold. Nothing more, nothing less. Always remember that about large American companies.
I've also worked under an employment contract, in a state without at-will laws. In that company, there were several employees who would be the bottleneck for the whole production line. They would intentionally work slower, so they'd keep a single job to do for the whole day, instead of having to find another task when they ran out of work. Where running a batch of incoming orders should take about 2 hours, they'd somehow manage to make it last all day.
I will bet you that these "bottleneck" employees were being paid an hourly wage and would be sent home early if the day's work were completed early. Many hourly workers find themselves in a situation where they wouldn't be able to afford their rent if they don't get all of their hours every week, and getting another job to cover those missing hours isn't even an option because the first employer still expects the worker to always be available for their scheduled 40 hours even when they aren't actually working and being paid for all of them, so "bottlenecking" is really a matter of basic survival for many. Pay your employees an actual living wage and this problem mostly disappears. The best places to work are the ones that offer performance-based compensation (bonuses for finishing early, or the opportunity for a faster worker to make a per-order rate that ends up being better than the minimum hourly rate). Sadly, most companies seem content to incentivize bottlenecking by punishing their fastest and most efficient employees with reduced hours and corresponding reduced pay. I once very gently pointed out this logical fallacy to one of my employers (I was a "lead" worker and had noticed this behavior in some of my team) and was fired (for no stated reason; "at-will" strikes again) not long after.
Knowledge != Intelligence
To provide lots of money to corporate interests in a form that can't be questioned without being accused of being unpatriotic.
It was created by a Republican, you should know by now.
the man with a pistol on his hip is not the one you need to worry about.
...spoken by a man with a pistol on his hip.
Great bunch of posts monger.....you are a much more patient man than I am. I am a business owner too and I gave up trying to discuss business or economics on slashdot. Simply put: there is so much astounding ignorance about "how things work" that I came to the conclusion it is pointless to try. Throw in fundamental differences in philosophies between USA / Europe and it just all melts down into mental masturbation.
It's like coding a Java app and your peer turns to you and says "J2EE is a great substitute for MySQL" Full stop. WTF? Sorry dude, I don't think this is going to work out. You....just....don't make any sense so I can't respond.
that we don't enjoy the challenge of piecing together unintelligible ramblings?
Why did they bother obscuring her face when they did such a poor job of it? Anybody who ever worked with her can take one look at that video and probably give a positive ID of her. Between that and not changing her voice, they basically leaked her identity.
When you choke on that next cherry, I for one, will not slap you on the back.
Its all just a veneer in the name of safety. So long as idiots will vote in other idiots with the mandate that personal liberties and civil society can both get chucked out the window in the name of safety, you get this sort of crap. Its all just a veneer. "We have to show them that we are doing something, and even if its not effective, at least it looks good for the press." Body scanners cost a fortune, have potential health issues for every living being going through them, and might be very ineffective, likewise pat down searches are draconian at best, and might not be effective, (neither has ever prevented a terrorist attack), yet because of their draconian nature, idiots assume they are vital to safety. Americans keep beating up on the French because they were largely ineffective during the second world war at keeping Germany out: the French built a Maginot Line which would have kept the Germans out if it were world war 1, but the Germans marched around it in World War 2. The French tried to fight the last war, and lost. Yet the Americans try to fight "the last war" all the time. Rule1) Terrorists *always* use airplanes to attack America. Now that was stated, but its a lie. There is no rule. There is no 'lesson'. Even -in the name of safety- if America turned itself into a maximum security prison, shunned every civil liberty, killed the free press, has 24/7 monitoring of every phone call, broadcast, video monitoring of every person, both in and outside their homes, pat down searches at every airport, rail station, bus station, sea port, land crossing, plus full screening of every last bit of anything coming into or going out of the US, the terrorists 1) could still do whatever they want, and 2) America would have lost to the terrorists (where the terrorists live would be more fun than America). Yet Americans keep voting for the draconian world I described. It doesn't work, hasn't worked. Its just a very inconvenient, completely useless, draconian veneer.
Why can't I give a TSA mall cop a "Freedom" Grope?
Why can't a TSA mall cop step into the X-Ray both with me?
Why can't I yell, "HE's GOT A GUN!" when I see a TSA mall cop wearing one?
How did her superiors find out she sent a letter to her Congressman to complain? What about Whistleblower protections? Yeah, thats what I thought, they are no protection at all
about Jennifer's Body.... darn, I need new writers.
Hi Guys, Thanks for taking this story up! Whether or not this video is your cup of tea, I think almost all of us can agree that ending TSA abuse and waste is hugely important. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have posted in reply to this. --Jon
I don't understand why you think a law about picking up your own dog's shit is "silly" but laws about littering aren't. Maybe you don't have many dog owners where you live and haven't had to jog at night on sidewalks with dog-shit landmines all the while inhaling that flavor.
But let me assure you, if you move to a city where people like to have dogs to replace human affection (i.e. every US city), you will find that without those regulations, you'll be exposed to fresh dog shit every morning right at your doorstep, in your grassy front lawn (even if raised) and at the parks.
Frankly, I would go even further and make dog shitting and pissing on public land illegal. I don't care if you pick up the shit. That area remains contaminated and children can no longer play in it, and it attracts flies that can transmit disease, that would not be there if it weren't for the fresh dung. Some of the fences I walk by every day are burned through from the acid where dogs pee on them, and all trees smell like a urinal.
According to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate
United States 8.3%
European Union 10.2%
Try 1946,so yes it has been used recently. But in reality the knowledge that the people are armed is often enough to keep the deviant politicians in line; thus their repeated attempts to attack it, like "Fast and Furious".
How come people in the US can get fired for reasons other than incompetence or stealing?
Because employment is "at will". The employee can leave at any time and for any reason (including no reason at all). The employer can (with some specific restrictions) terminate employment for a worker at any time and for any reason. Employment is a social contract and it's only fair that it be on reasonably similar terms for both parties.
There are many very sensible reasons why a company might let an employee go besides incompetence or stealing. There might not be enough business to justify the expense of their continued employment. The company might be moving in a direction that no longer requires their expertise. The employee might be a social problem (bad attitude, etc) or disruptive. The job might be seasonal (taxes or landscaping). The company might find a better qualified individual for that role.
Employment isn't a right. Companies hire you because the have an economic need. If that need disappears or becomes no longer economically viable, insisting that the company continue to employe excess employees is insane. My own company has customer demand that fluctuates significantly. We have a number of full time employees but also have a number of temporary employees through an agency. If we had to keep all of them on payroll all the time we'd be out of business within a year and all those employees would be worse off. Yes it can be very hard on people sometimes but that doesn't by itself make it a bad idea. If companies go bankrupt supporting unnecessary employees, everyone is worse off in the long run.
It's in fact very difficult to fire a person here if he is a good worker.
It's also difficult to fire workers in much of Europe if they are NOT good workers. We have the same problem with a lot of unions here in the US. I don't necessarily object to unions per-se but they do tend to protect a lot of dead weight. Having the ability to adjust the workforce to match product demand is a good thing for the economy.
What's with all the blather about business, the free market etc. Jennifer worked for the TSA. Does anybody think it has anything to do with the free market or business?
So in this case where the government behaves like a child - who's the responsible adult in charge?
In the US and other democracies the voters are in charge. (sooner or later anyway)
Do you really think there can be a fair discussion between an employee and their employer?
Depends on what you mean by "fair". Fair does not necessarily equal easy or comfortable. The employee is legally allowed to leave any time they like (absent a contractual obligation). Likewise, with a few important restrictions, employers have the same right. That is certainly fair. It might also be very hard but that's the way life is sometimes.
Do you really think the employer won't exploit the employee, particularly in times of high unemployment?
You think employees don't do the same whenever they can? If you do then you have never employed anyone. Employees take advantage of companies all the time. They goof off, play on the internet, conduct personal business when they are supposed to be working, sometimes steal, etc. I've gone into manufacturing plants where people sat there reading the newspaper for several hours instead of doing the work they were hired to do.
That's not to say there aren't scummy employers out there. There are plenty who will screw people every chance they get. But let's not pretend it is a one way screwing.
If your system is so great, how come it leads to so much social inequality?
No one ever claimed there was a perfect system and every system has social inequality. The only question is the degree of it.
So you think paying someone worth $75k $60k isn't exploitation?
No, because if they are actually worth $75K they should be able to go get it. If no one is willing to hire them for $75K, then QED they are not worth $75K. It's economics 101 that things are worth what someone is willing to pay for them. Not a penny more or a penny less.
It seems in Europe people believe the government has a place in encouraging a society that is dignified and equitable for the public at large.
People in the US feel the same way. You only have to look at the number of laws promoting social causes to see that. (medicare, social security, various tax incentives, equal rights laws, etc) The differences are really more philosophical than practical. The biggest difference in general seems to be that people in the US trust their governments less. Put succinctly I once heard someone explain it that a government that is powerful enough to give you everything you want is also powerful enough to take everything you have.
In America your worth and place in society is based on your value to someone else.
How is "public at large" any different from "someone else"? You are making a distinction without a difference. (actually you are simply saying "my team is better than your team" without utilizing any actual facts to back up your assertion.)
I'd say the US has a pretty massive deficiency compared to the Europe
Then you would be wrong to say that. The EU has debt of just under 10 Trillion Euros which is around $13.1 Trillon dollars at current exchange rates. US public debt currently stands at just under $15 Trillion. The difference is actually fairly minimal.
we have socialized healthcare, they have inhumanity
Couldn't you come up with a better troll than that?
I'm a gun-hating-euro-commie-pinko... Well that's not entirely true, whenever I've had the chance I've picked up a firearm and instantly regressed to a childlike state of glee and can feel the omnipotent power emanating from my hands. One day I'll maybe wrap up all these thoughts into a proper philosophical stance, but until then, I'll leave the contradictions swirling.
I can see the point of the 2nd amendment and agree with it in a similar way. I reserve the right to disagree with my government and it would be nice if I could overthrow them by force, should the urge take me. I'm not quite sure how this would work in practice though. Do we all have to agree to overthrow at the same time? If somebody else jumps the gun, am I expected to defend my government? Doesn't really seem very well thought out.
If I embrace the principle for a few moments, I find myself asking why there are any limits. If I'm lucky, I'll get an assault rifle. Having seen the US military playing with other armies owning just assault rifles, I can't help but think those waving their rifles about have a somewhat inflated sense of their own abilities. Now clearly we can't all have our own air-forces and nuclear devices (not for ethical reasons, merely as they're expensive to own and maintenance would probably cut into my free time). How about everybody just carrying a vial of anthrax in their pocket? Cheap, handy, lasts forever - and nobody is going to mess with you. I'm guessing following the spirit, this is an excellent idea.
Also ponder why the US doesn't arm the countries they liberate. Sure they get *cough* democracy, but that's just the start. I feel to truly embrace the sentiment and experience true liberty, every Afghan should be given a lovely new AK. Not only does this help spread the American ideal, but should they feel that they're being oppressed by their *cough-cough* government, they've been empowered to overthrow it. Denying them arms and the freedom they provide, is clearly oppression (and actively removing them.. would you stand for that?).
Does the NRA have a stance on spreading 2nd amendment rights as far as the power of the US allows?