Slashdot Mirror
Reddit Subpoenaed In Wrongful Death Lawsuit
redletterdave writes "In March, a 51-year-old Reddit user named 'Black Visions' wrote his last post on Reddit. He had been writing frequently about depression and suicide, but in his last post where he also threatened his own suicide, others decided to egg him on even further. That turned out to the be the last straw: Seattle news soon reported Jerry had jumped eight stories from a hotel room in the Double Tree in Tukwila, Washington. Reddit announced on Wednesday that the user's sister Sandy has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against nine Reddit users who egged him on, and Reddit has also been subpoenaed in identifying the information of another three individuals."
The people involved did a despicable thing. But I can't see how it's any more illegal than someone shouting "Jump!" at someone on a roof top when emergency services are trying to talk them down.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
On the internet, nobody knows if you are who you say you are. You could really be a depressed person, or you could be a 7 line perl script. You could be talking to a real 15 year old girl, or it could be an FBI agent. Then there's products like Siri, cleverbot, etc., that blur the line even further. But even if that problem could be 'solved', there is no way to know whether an internet identity is a single person or a group.
So given that identity is not provable online, why should people act like it is? Also, if you don't mod this post +5, I'm going to hang myself with a power cord.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
This is a really sad story.
I have to ask the question, even though it just feels wrong. Yeah, I know the old saying "If you have to ask, its probably illegal" might apply here.
Is it illegal to tell someone to commit suicide?
Dude was drama-queening on the interwebs, some assholes got their kicks poking the quivering blob of uselessness and then he killed himself. This is no different than assholes in a crowd on the street shouting "jump" at a person on a ledge. There is zero rational argument that the assholes had anything at all to do with the death. But good luck in yer quest for deep pockets, sister of dead guy. You'll come out with squat, plus lawyers' fees.
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
.... That's Just Unconscious Knowledge. - Perry Farrell
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
It's shitty what they did, but Reddit and its users aren't a suicide hotline or discussion forum. Maybe he should have called a suicide prevention hotline to talk to someone. Or spoken to someone at a church, police station, fire department, etc. Anywhere other than a discussion web site for posting kitten photos. I'm sure someone in the comments on Reddit mentioned that.
That's why /b/ doesn't keep a record of its posts - by the time a family member would react to something like this, the post would already be gone. And even then, the people are posting as anonymous anyway.
Not posting AC because I'm a real man.
Where was she when he was posting? Blame everyone else, but you're absolved through willful ignorance?
n/t
It's unfortunate he did that, but you can't stop human nature. Bullying and/or being a bully is something that each and every person must learn to deal with. If its a child, then it's the parents job to teach them how to ocntend with it, or if the child is too young to learn that yet, then the parent should be near by to protect the child.
In this case we are talking about an adult, who is responsible for his own action.
Personally I am tired of all these lawsuits of people wanting to blame somebody else. The courts should throw that case right out..
in the gene pool - stay on your meds and get over it
You know it crossed your mind. Don't lie.
The article cites a user-made post, not an official statement by reddit. Multiple people on reddit, including comments on the cited SubredditDrama post, have pointed out that there is no hard evidence that
-Black Visions killed himself
-Sister of Black Visions is actually Black Vision's sister
-That there is any subpoena or legal action being pursued
Get back to me after there's real evidence of any of those things.
His final posts can be read on http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/qoixk/a_lot_of_trolls_tonight/ Looking through it I get the sense that people were trying to reach out and tried to persuade him from killing himself. TFA makes it sound as though everyone was cheering him on. Those few who trolled got severely downvoted. I can't see how reddit nor its users are in any way responsible for his death. Rather seems like his family is out to find a scapegoat. Where were they when he needed help and support?
His choice ('Free will, mutha-fscker, ever heard of it?). Color me dubious that a handful of anons writing 'doo-it, doo-it' could convince anyone to take that last step. Unless he had a long, well-documented history of self-harm for attention-getting, file his choice right next to (what should be) our inherent right to control our own bodies. Yes, even men. We all have the right to sign up for the Hemingway Retirement Plan as our personal circumstances warrant.
For those who don't know, the Men's Rights subreddit is full of people who think that anybody who identifies as a feminist wants to take away rights from men. In general, the men's rights subreddit is all about asking the question, "but what about men?" when an issue primarily pertaining to women (like birth control, rape, etc.) comes up.
There is also a significant contingent who is there for advice when they get divorced, in order to get the most and/or lose the least from the divorce.
It is pretty much a terrible place.
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6795/1196909942417nt8.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westroads_Mall_shooting
get a life reddit fag.
First off there is no official announcement from Reddit that they received subpoenas or not, all we have is a bunch of posts from random strangers. Second, subpoenas would be handled by the lawyers office directly. Third, the lawyer would have informed the family to stay off the website and not post a warning about upcoming subpoenas because it gives time for those who made the comments to clean up their trail.
Additionally, some people have taken the time to poke holes into the story of the poster and of the "apparent" suicide.
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/s60bw/a_month_ago_a_suicidal_redditor_left_his_final/c4bdfhy
And this isn't the first time someone has tried to pull a fast one on reddit
http://www.urlesque.com/2011/03/10/gawker-adrian-chen-cancer-lucidending/
This lawsuit must be thrown out, it's bullshit (at least if you subscribe to the concept of free speech) and telling telling somebody to go kill themselves is not an order and nobody has to follow it.
Now, when you are in the military and your commander tells you to go kill yourself in a roundabout way: "Soldier, go over there, secure that position and stay there", and you do it, then it's an order, of-course that's a different situation, the soldier knew he could get killed because of orders (but even in the military there are bounds of reason that cannot be crossed, a soldier shouldn't be complying with illegal orders for example).
Again, people can be assholes, but they must have their right to be assholes.
You can't handle the truth.
While this is sad, on several if not all fronts, online forums are not an outlet for therapy. That is, unless that forum is dealing with therapy itself.
Simple fact is, he chose to go to reddit. He chose to air his problems. Yes I realize that when in depressed states people can think they appear to have no choice at all, but that all goes back to state of mind, regardless of exterior influence by people on reddit. Even moreso if he felt that was a place he felt a part of.
Now I don't browse reddit often, I should say maybe once a month, but if it's like every other open community on the net, the range of personalities extend to the full of humanity. See 'Greater Internet Dickwad Theory' for examples.
I feel for the girl suing, I really do, but nothing good is going to come out of this. Closure does not come out of a courtroom or through the Internet. It might seem like it can, but the physical and the virtual are 2 vastly different places. Especially when the death of a loved one is involved.
"No I'm planning to kill myself, doesn't matter anyway." ... life just isn't going to get better for me."
"You shouldn't take the hate group thing so seriously. It doesn't mean much really. That sure as hell isn't the reason I'm killing myself. I've had long term depression
He WRITES its not them...
I mean what those people did was irresponsible, but he didnt kill himself just cause they said to. I'm guessing they were just "calling a bluff" when he was being real. Im sure they feel pretty crappy right now for doing so.
just my 2 cents
Not posting AC because I'm a real man.
Now that was just rude. I'm going to kill myself and then sue you for it.
It looks like the guy being sued (AlyoshaV) simply didn't read the post till the end (where the suicide note was), and commented on partial post with some stupid joke.
Had he read the post till the end, the suit could be avoided (probably not the suicide).
This should be an important message to all slashdotters: always read all posts in their entirety before commenting. Always RTFA thoroughly till the very end, or you could be the next murderer.
...in the main, and from the apparent statements in this case.
Separations from partners are often acrimonious and exchanges saying "F**k off and die" are commonplace. It's obvious his ex-wife didn't want any contact with him. Maybe his ex-wife should countersue his estate for his harassing phone calls.
I can see both his sister and his ex-wife spending loads of money on this lawsuit and having no money left to support his disabled daughter.
If this poor fellow was actually pushed over the brink by a few reddit comments, he was standing awfully close to it. I don't think the commentators should be held culpable since a normal person wouldn't be fazed by such things. Outright harrassment or threats aside, legislating human interaction on that level would be too subjective.
Emotions! In your brain!
A guy killed himself over a post on a subforum called "Men's Rights"?
If there was any time for a Darwin Award, it would be now.
And no, I'm not posting as AC because I don't want to get sued, I don't even have an account to begin with, and don't live in the USA.
If people are free to be an asshole and egg somebody to kill themselves, then that guy's sister is just as free to be an asshole and sue people
And the judge is free to be an asshole and make an asshole decision about the case, which lead to more opportunities for people to be free to be assholes
Why would you want to throw out the case and prevent so many people from being assholes? Man, you're an asshole
Klerck wants his movie plot back!
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
What proof, beyond reasonable doubt, is there that he would not have jumped if those people wouldn't have egged him on? If just a few people wriitng mean things on an Internet forum would cause people to jump from buildings, the Internet would be the primary cause of death and facebook would have been sued bankrupt a long time ago. Unless there is irrefutable proof that these posts have a direct significant relation to the death of this person, there is no damage to be claimed.
People get depressed and take their own lives. in the majority of cases suicide happens, external circumstances may be triggers for already predetermined actions and behavior, but are not a cause. This is a part of life, it's a natural reaction to a chemical imbalance, caused by a variation of things. It could be stress, it could be hereditary, it could be a reaction to hormone imbalances (both mother and fetus) during pregnancy and childhood and it could be due to physical trauma or illness. The vast majority of suicide attempts happen anyway and the circumstances merely act as a vehicle, if they even have any influence at all.
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
Comments on Reddit point out that
-- This has happened before in other places with a fake sister
-- the suicide was committed by jumping off a building, while the user threatened to commit suicide by shooting himself
-- the suicide happened several days after the nasty replies were deleted
-- the user's real name was supposedly Jerry, but the name of the man who killed himself was William.
Furthermore, carefully reading the Reddit link itself, Reddit has not received a subpoena. Rather, Reddit has been *told by the supposed sister of the user* that they *will be subpoenaed* in the future; at no point does Reddit claim to have actually received the subpoena. As a bonus, the man's supposed sister claims "We were told by our lawyer not to give any other information out such as our full names or the people to be named in the lawsuit", which makes her claims immune to verification.
It's quite likely that some troll saw a suicide in the newspaper and decided to claim that the suicide was connected when they were really just trolling. Ruling that out would require having the subpoena, not just having a claim that one was sent.
last time I checked, corpses weren't allowed to sue. I believe your family would have to sue on your behalf.
That guy's sister can certainly start that case, but while everybody's right to be an asshole is supposed to be Constitutionally protected, the judge is supposed to protect that very Constitution that protects assholes' rights.
Today you hear all about 'activist judges', but whoever says it means something else altogether. An activist judge, is a judge who chooses NOT to uphold and protect the Constitution, but chooses instead to act against the letter and/or the spirit of that law.
A judge is NOT an activist judge for upholding the Constitution, and if this means striking a law down that is unconstitutional, then it's his authority and responsibility to uphold the Constitution and take down that law.
But of-course people love to muddy the water and redefine what words mean, it's double plus good in their mind, that they do it with impunity (for now).
You can't handle the truth.
Hah, there's a Turing Test joke in here somewhere, I'm just no that clever....
Go!
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising...kill yourself. Thank you. Just planting seeds, planting seeds is all I'm doing. No joke here, really. Seriously, kill yourself, you have no rationalisation for what you do, you are Satan's little helpers. Kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself now. Now, back to the show. Seriously, I know the marketing people: 'There's gonna be a joke comin' up.' There's no fuckin' joke. Suck a tail pipe, hang yourself...borrow a pistol from an NRA buddy, do something...rid the world of your evil fuckin' presence. -- Bill Hicks
Thank goodness Bill isn't around to see this sad shit...
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Asshole! Anyone that wants to take away my free speech should die in a fire!
Nobody should expect any more than this from the site that Reddit has become. I mean, this was a site that for as long as possible allowed child predators and pedophiles to run amok with no regulation or oversight, and then only did something about it when it threatened to become a public relations nightmare. They still allow subreddits about disgusting material to operate in that manner, including one glorifying pictures of dead children.
Read the comments on there and you'll regularly find people defending the indefensible, and basically living up to that Penny Arcade "total fuckwad" theory from a while back. There are many redeeming qualities about the site, including being an overall fine news aggregator, but the community itself is something which reflects more negatively than positively on it. In many respects, it's worse than 4chan.
So, honestly, it doesn't surprise me at all to find that there are a great deal of people there who would do this. Even if the post itself is a hoax, the bullying wasn't, and that should be primarily what the discussion is about on all of this.
If I'm remembering right, you can make a Reddit username by supplying the desired name and a password. Good luck attaching that to an individual person.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
It's ok, though. I'm not talking just to you - a lot of ACs on this post.
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/qoixk/a_lot_of_trolls_tonight/c3zbudb
No, it doesn't keep a record because that is how the original software it is based on worked. This just never changed.
Come on how about some SPOILER warnings? No the only option is to mod you down so that your comment isn't shown.
and expect no love, if the whole internet new about his situation how about the sister?
COULD YOU HAVE DONE SOMETHING BITCH!? cuz its not the internets fault
harden the fuck up
If we would stop passing laws that prohibit the use/sale of psychedelics/empathogens. These would likely have helped this guy if they were not illegal. See research on MAPS.ORG. If he was reaching out, people would have likely pointed him to resources that would be available to help people in his position. Prohibition is a wrongful, perpetuating backlash to everything Timothy Leary stirred up in the 60's.
If you don't understand what I mean, or rather are not aware of the research and history of psychedelics and empathogens- Basically this guy could have taken a lower threshold dose of MDMA with an experienced psychedelic-assisted psychotherapist and he would "release" whatever weight he has been carrying around but too scared shitless to even think or feel about. This is what research has shown, and why MDMA is on its way to becoming legalized for prescription use ( http://www.maps.org/research/mdma/ ).
As far as the wife suing kids on reddit, she would benefit from the PTSD treatment as well, for the newest event of PTSD (husband suicide) and the "Post Traumatic Long Term Stress Disorder" involved with being married to someone who wants to kill himself.
Drugs are good kids.
Just don't be an idiot.
If you know an idiot, there's help for them out there. And it would be legal if the tools to the pursuit of happiness weren't illegal.
Suicide is a personal choice, not anyone else's. I don't see why everyone always tries to blame bullies, commenters, family, etc.
Regardless of if it's a rational decision or not it's my own choice, just like robbing a bank is my fault.
Do I get to blame commenters urging me to commit other crimes too?
why am I talking to myself?
4chan keeps the ip addresses of everyone who posts, and they let the FBI know when something like this is happening, same with terrorism threats and people who post child pornography.
I'm posting AC because I wear a pink tie.
^ That post needs mod points for funny and informative.
Really? Slashdot ID envy?
Mine is "lower than average" but not that great. Did Taco keep his by chance?
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
$10 says they're all under 18, the little morons
That's why /b/ doesn't keep a record of its posts
Heh...
Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
Being a reddit user myself, I can say I've seen suicidal post a few times, and each and every one of these time the people were actually very helpful. I'm really surprised to read this here. I personally think this is yet another attempt to make the site look bad on other news site just like with the jailbait fiasco.
Way to generalize mister coward. Guessing you are racist too?
Mixing bleach and ammonia creates chlorine gas that is very harmful to your health.
Do NOT mix them.
My opinion on suicides is that if you find the world so intolerable, then by all means commit suicide. But don't make a song and dance about it and don't burden the emergency services. Get you will and last testament and finances in order. Wear your best clothes, record an automated phone call to the authorities for a few hours later and swallow a few cyanide pills. If you can't go through all that, then you are not ready to commit suicide and are just a whiny, self absorbed, self centred and attention seeking ass hole.
Sugar, egg, and peanut butter does not turn into a cookie when you bake it.
It turns into FIRE .
While trying (hard) to achieve both here are my two cents: ...), is not going to clear any own guilt from any of the remaining family members: as far as I'm concerned they are as liable of his death as those who encouraged him (they were aware of his condition and his blog statements but they did nothing); secondly this is like suing some BeerX company: "The babes in their ads were so hot that I had to drink till my liver broke into pieces. Now give me money for losing my liver to cirrhosis."; there is/should be a dignity in the suicidal act: my life, my ending, my choice.
- despite being social beings, each and every one of us are ultimately responsible of our own lives;
- suicide is an unilateral statement that has hardly any logic to someone else other than the one performing it; trying to draw a causality is usually as relevant as trying to guess what was going on in some painter's head while drawing a masterpiece;
- cashing upon someone beloved's death, despite being so American (sue, sue
Ultimately there's about the survival of the fittest (the one standing and cashing up).
Comment removed based on user account deletion
So your saying it is okay to push someone into it? How many posts did he make over suicide? It appears he made several, and did the idiots involved in "egging" him on say anything in those previous posts. People who talk about it are often looking for help on how to turn things around. It is usually those that say nothing, and there lives are perfectly normal, that just go and off themselves.
If you have problems and want advice you should talk to others that felt the same way and turn things around for themselves. You could use the internet to find the right group of people, but if you use goon web sites to post this stuff you will get ridiculed from others losers who think there lives are great considering they spend 8-10 hours sitting around posting one sentence replies to any topic they find.
Depression can be caused from numerous things, and leads to wanting to end it all, most times it is over petty problems, sometimes it is due to things that happened through out a persons life. What is Despicable about this is the mans sister, not to be to critical of her (since I do not know her) where was she at during his problems? And now she cares? So much so she needs to file a civil suit?
Good. Anyone who eggs someone threatening suicide on deserves punishment for being a factor in their death.
after a quick gg :
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/04/reddit-scared-straight-for-encouraging-suicide.html
So wich one is it, is it a hoax?
apparently, the guy who died ( http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bViCZ3V-Dv4J:records.tukwilawa.gov/WebLink8/DocView.aspx%3Fid%3D35403%26page%3D1%26dbid%3D1+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a ) was not named jerry, didn't have an ex-wife or a sister...
hmmm... slashdot get your facts ( straight ), it's the net, more rumours than straight facts..
This whole thing is likely a huge hoax, and reddit fell for it.
http://www.dailydot.com/news/reddits-wrongful-death-lawsuit-hoax/
that's intentional. not to avoid lawsuits, but to provide one last place where words online work like words offline - once they're uttered, the go away and exist only in people's memories. there's no permanence, so you need not worry about saying something stupid and having it come back at you.
also saves on backups...
anyway, all the people that were on /b/ when it was good (inb4 /b/ was never good) are trolling slashdot now.
It appears as though the official police report of the suicide in Seattle does not match up with Black_Vision's reported threat of suicide on Reddit. From NYMag, Tukwila Police Department spokesman Mike Murphy: "The case detective and the victim's family confirm that the victim in the Tukwila Doubletree suicide was not named Jerry. He did not have a sister, an ex-wife, or a daughter. We are not going to release his name until after the case is closed, probably in a few months." We still do not know the status of former Reddit user "Black_Vision," who announced he was quitting Reddit shortly before he threatened to kill himself. If the suicide was a hoax, then the other account "u/sisterofblackvisions" was made as a cruel joke. We at the IBTimes deeply apologize for any confusion this story may have caused, and while some users may have actually egged on this seemingly suicidal user, it appears the suicide portion of this story is a hoax. Once again, we apologize.
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/04/reddit-scared-straight-for-encouraging-suicide.html Maybe a little research next time? No Reddit official ever said they were being subpoenaed.
For the record, the later part of the story linking Black Visions to a man who committed suicide in Tukwila, has been proven to be a hoax.
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/04/reddit-scared-straight-for-encouraging-suicide.html
There is no subpoena against Reddit and the ex-wife the person claiming to be Black Visions' sister also threatened to sue does not exist, so is not under subpoena.
Goading a suicidal depressive is a monstrous thing to do. Someone else capitalizing on their depression in order to create an illusory martyr? That is also a monstrous thing to do.