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FDA May Let Patients Buy More Drugs Without Prescriptions

Hugh Pickens writes "The Washington Times reports that the Food and Drug Administration may soon permit Americans to obtain some drugs used to treat conditions such as high blood pressure and diabetes without obtaining a prescription. They may allow patients to diagnose their ailments by answering questions online or at a pharmacy kiosk in order to buy current prescription-only drugs for conditions such as high cholesterol, certain infections, migraine headaches, asthma or allergies. Some pharmacists embrace the notion that they should be able to dole out medication for patients' chronic conditions without making them go through a doctor. 'This could eliminate the need for a physician visit for certain meds that may have been prescription prior to this change,' said Ronna Hauser, vice president of policy and regulatory affairs for the National Community Pharmacists Association. 'However, there may be circumstances when a patient might need a physician visit and diagnosis and original prescription to start therapy but could continue on that therapy with pharmacist refill authorization capabilities.'" (Read more, below.) Hugh Pickens continues: "Medical providers at public hearings to obtain input on a new paradigm urge caution, saying the government should not try to cut health care costs by cutting out doctors. 'Patients rely on physicians to provide sound diagnosis and treatment information and to help them meet their unique health needs,' says Peter W. Carmel, President of the American Medical Association. 'Expanding many prescription medications to OTC interferes with that important relationship without offering any real benefits to improve patients' health or reduce their costs.'" Other countries seem to do fine with pharmacists being closer to the front line of medicine recommendations; why couldn't the U.S.?"

295 of 392 comments (clear)

  1. Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by crazyjj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm pretty sure the American Medical Association (made up of doctors) is going to go apeshit over even the suggestion of this.

    --
    What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    1. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by DRMShill · · Score: 2

      Possibly, but judging by what I've seen at waiting rooms doctors have no shortage of work load. I think they may be inclined to let this one slide.

    2. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by blahbooboo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Doctors are busy enough they don't need to do things just "to make more money." We have a shortage of doctors in the USA, ever try to get an appointment with a specialist who doesn't have a several week wait?

      Fact is these are serious chronic conditions that need some monitoring by doctors. This is backed up by the evidence. So please stop with the "docs are greedy" bull shit.

    3. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by __aaeihw9960 · · Score: 1

      Where do you think that workload comes from?

    4. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by crazyjj · · Score: 3, Insightful

      dging by what I've seen at waiting rooms doctors have no shortage of work load

      Yeah, and you can bet they want to KEEP it that way.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    5. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by MetalliQaZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Reminds me of the contact lens industry.

      1) Eye doctor determines your prescription
      2) New appointment necessary with someone else for "contact lens fitting"
      3) Order your contacts anywhere you like for 1 year
      4) The doctors force you to pay for a new set of appointments, no matter how happy you are with your current prescription

      This is obvious protectionism. I don't need a "fitting" every year. My contact lens size has never changed. I don't need a new prescription until I determine that I'm not seeing well enough anymore. I'll come in for a new apointment when my eyes are bothering me. Otherwise, leave me alone, dammit!

      --
      "Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
    6. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by blahbooboo · · Score: 1

      Yes, and contacts are just like treatment for hypertension and diabetes... you have no idea what you're talking about.

    7. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by vlm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      From one of the articles:

      Move would increase patients’ out-of-pocket costs

      This is why its going to happen. Anything to make the middle class more miserable is always implemented. Doesn't matter if it makes sense or not. If it'll cost more and make people miserable, it's a go.

      Isn't some of that stuff super expensive? I think one big problem is having to pay list price for blood pressure medication, you'll have future darwin award winners thinking... hmm doc says I need to take this $175/month OTC pill thats no longer covered by insurance for my blood pressure or I'll have a heart attack... but this advertisement says aspirin helps with heart attacks and a three month supply is like $3/month.

      Certain infections makes me worry about massive over-non-prescription issues. I can see the "womens magazines" headlines already: Kids got sniffles? Here's the secret answers for the pharmacist so you can give your kid zithromax every time they get a virus...

      It strikes me as about as unintelligent as removing preventative care like immunizations from coverage... in other words that guarantees we're going to be stuck with it.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    8. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      Well technically they should because you should be examined by a professional with some experience to make sure that the symptoms due to something "simple" and not something else. However one of the rare times I went to a doctor (in Canada though) I described the symptoms and he was so rushed he just gave me a prescription without examining me. Statistically it probably makes sense - treat the likely common causes and if that doesn't work then examine. However, if doctors are going to operate this way (and I do not think that they should) then why not replace them with a computer? It will make no difference to the level of care and will be much more convenient. If the AMA or Canadian equivalent want to push back against it then great - but that will mean that they must guarantee to do a better job than a computer - that means proper examinations and not being diagnosed from a description of the symptoms.

    9. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by doston · · Score: 2

      I'm pretty sure the American Medical Association (made up of doctors) is going to go apeshit over even the suggestion of this.

      Made up of lobbyists more like. http://politicalcorrection.org/factcheck/200906110008

    10. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Sir_Sri · · Score: 2

      I asked a med student friend of mine (in canada) at one point about this sort of thing years ago. Apparently some places have 'bulletins' that go around regularly about all the common diseases this week/month and what's going on, and from that they know what 90% of case load is going to be for some doctors (the front line ones generally at walk in clinics that sort of thing).

      If you show up with the common ailment of the month, or if there's really no different options for treatment for disease A and disease B then their options are rather limited.

      The doctor *should* also know what questions to ask if you're describing symptoms that would differentiate one problem from another. It's possible you provided all that info, it's possible the doctor asked the right question to clarify. Actually looking at a patient doesn't always provide a lot of useful info.

    11. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by swb · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As someone who had high blood pressure and triglycerides and was put on medications for both, I will tell you that the kind of monitoring the doctor did was minimal and could easily be replaced.

      My "monitoring" was a couple of lipid panels run by the lab in his office, which could easily be outsourced to any place with lab techs who can draw blood. The rest of the monitoring was me taking my own damn blood pressure and charting the results in Excel.

      The doctor's value was near zero as far as I can tell, and less than zero if you add in the work I did changing my diet and losing a bunch of weight (all of which I did in spite of his advice), which lowered my blood pressure and totally altered my lipid profile.

      IMHO, what's needed is a new, "basic doctor" type degree that has the power to prescribe most meds and monitor most medical conditions but doesn't 8-10 years of education and training costing the GDP of a small country.

      We have a doctor "shortage" because it costs $250k to become a doctor, the people who actually get the degree specialize where the easy money is (high level of non-insurance reimbursed business which is paid in cash, up front, no on call hours, etc, like dermatology) and nobody wants to practice in high-voume, low-margin areas like being a GP.

    12. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by couchslug · · Score: 2

      Fuck 'em. The vast majority of minor problems and many major ones could be addressed by a "checklist/flowchart" system.

      Physicians only have a few minutes to go through their PERSONAL checklist/flowchart, and they often know less about the problem than the patient.

      My wife had Lyme and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, courtesy of the tick invasion of the South that so many LOCAL physicians don't even think to consider. She had to download and present info to (multiple) docs until they sent her for testing which verified HER self-diagnosis.

      What we need are more ways to use computers to do repetitive tasks that TASK-SATURATED physicians don't need to do. Sitting in an office for four hours to get a couple of minutes of interaction is bullshit, and it's also NORMAL.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    13. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Fact is these are serious chronic conditions that need some monitoring by doctors.

      Yeah, but how much? That's the big question. For simple things like hypertension that's easily controlled with a medication or two, a script could handle it - input age, sex, weight, allergies, co morbid conditions and a couple of other things and out pops some pills. The next problem is getting the patient to take them and seeing if they work.

      Carefully checking the efficacy of a blood pressure medication is probably something that needs a human, a physical exam of some limited sort and some lab work (at some point). A bit more than you could typically do in a pharmacy, but you certainly don't need a full scale medical clinic. The problem comes when the person smokes, is trying to get diabetes, has hypertension and, oh, their back hurts and 'what's this rash'. Then you need the full monty. Your typical doctor's office is designed to handle pretty much every ambulatory complaint and maybe a minor emergency or two. Pharmacists, not so much.

      So, as a patient, you have a problem (actually several). Exactly who are you supposed to be seeing? Do you need to see the goofball wearing the white lab coats (why lab coats? I hate lab coats. I didn't even wear them when I did wet lab things.) Maybe. How about the nice nurse practitioner? Maybe. Nobody really knows. All of the data is horribly skewed. The nurse practitioner centric data tends to include mostly 'simple' patients with only one or two problems. The doctor centric literature has stories of edge cases that the NP missed (and likely 5/10 physicians would do exactly the same). Like much data in what essentially amounts to the social sciences, it can be read however you want to read it.

      You look at big HMO type thingys like Kaiser and Group Health (Pacific NW), they use a fairly complex tiered method of treating people - some Nurse Practitioners / Physician Assistants, some docs, some pharmacists, social workers, physical therapists, etc. You talk to people enrolled in such plans and you find two broad groups of people. Those that are satisfied with the system and those that aren't. Looking at who those people are, the generally healthy group (most people), like the system, like the easy access, the ability to escalate care if needed but mostly get the care they think they need when the need it. The sicker, more complex group of people hate the sometimes rigid guidelines, really want to see a single (or small number of) providers and don't like the HMOs.

      Both groups spend a lot of money in the system. The former because there are many more of them (most people AREN'T really sick), the latter because their health needs are so complex and difficult.

      The physician centric fee for service model is squarely designed for the latter group of people (hey, it makes sense, we make more money off them....). But a lot of docs have found that a good life can be had by seeing 30+ people a day and not doing much for them. That's the typical primary care model in the US and it's batshit insane.

      The whining by the AMA and various other groups is short term self centered and long term pretty bizarre. Especially the American Academy of Family Physicians. It's pretty clear that the system isn't going to produce anywhere near the number of FPs needed and I, for one, am perfectly happy not seeing something so breathlessly simple that a script can do it. But hey, if it works for you...

      But until you drastically change how medical providers are reimbursed, you're going to have these huge problems. Everybody is trying to get their 'fair' share of a shrinking pie. And, at least in the US, reimbursement is so drastically screwed up that nobody has a chance in hell of figuring out how to fix it.

      tl;dr - letting pharmacists treat hypertension and diabetes probably doesn't make much sense, but then nothing else does, so why start now?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    14. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Yes, because the entire reason your prescription can change year to year has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the shape of your eye lens is constantly changing.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    15. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Measuring vitals and dispensing medication ARE routinely performed by nurses (though, IIRC, only a Registered Nurse can dispense meds, a Licensed Practical Nurse can't).

    16. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Except that it's a proven fact that people can't tell when their eyes have changed. I noticed my brother's glasses weren't working for him before he did. We were watching TV and he couldn't read some small-but-not-tiny text on the screen that the rest of us could read. He thought he was fine until he came over to our house. Then he went to the optometrist and found out that he was way off, so bad that he shouldn't have been driving that way.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    17. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by internerdj · · Score: 1

      Health care costs are rising too fast for us not to ask how much do we really spend on health theater (borrowing from the TSA discussion terminology). Marketplace on NPR last week mentioned a recent study (I can't seem to find it right now) that cardiac surgery versus medication is correlated to the number of qualified surgeons at the hospital. It could be greed or it could be every problem is a nail, but situations like the GP mentions do exist and are a problem in health care costs.

    18. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      My doc already does this, except for the 'minor' surgical procedures. In fact, a tech takes my vitals, confirms symptoms, and even draws for tests.

      My doc still hands me meds when he has them, though.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    19. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Having people pay for medications out of pocket might actually be a big positive on the overall cost of medical care in this country. Right now doctors often prescribe expensive on-patent drugs that have little or no benefit over off-patent cheap drugs because of pressure and marketing from pharmaceutical companies.

      One example of this is a new family of drugs (DPP-4 inhibitors) one of which is sitagliptin. It regulates production of insulin in type II diabetic patients very well. It costs $250 a month and is being pushed very heavily. An alternative to this is something like glypizide that does the same thing, only less selectively. Glypizide costs $4 a month. For lots of patients glypizide is just as effective as an overall treatment.

      With the current system patents are much more likely to get sitagliptin because their health care covers it. But is it economically a good choice? Or is it being sold in large quantities because there isn't the feedback that an out of pocket expense would cause?

      Ultimately I think it's very important to consider the choices being made that impact the overall cost of delivery medical services in the US. Right now we have one of the highest per capita incomes in the world, AND by far and away the highest percentage of that income goes to pay for medical care.

      Canada, with very similar demographics pays half what we do as a percentage of GDP, and by most measures they are healthier.

      It is so bad that the US Federal Government payments for health care are per capita what Canadians pay for health care. Yet Canada gets universal coverage for that same expenditure, but in addition we ALSO have to pay staggering costs for our commercial insurance system.

      These costs are a disaster for our economy. In every aspect of life they make our society poorer and less competitive world wide. It cannot continue in this manner.

    20. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      what's needed is a new, "basic doctor" type degree that has the power to prescribe most meds and monitor most medical conditions but doesn't 8-10 years of education and training costing the GDP of a small country.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_practitioner

    21. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      Change eye doctors. Never even heard of anything like that. Where are you?

    22. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by DurendalMac · · Score: 1

      I never had a "fitting" appointment. One for an regular checkup and prescription adjustment, and that was that.

    23. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by blahbooboo · · Score: 1

      Thanks for raising all our insurance rates. Nothing like unnecessary testing.

    24. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by scamper_22 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly.

      Sure, it is *theoretically* possible for doctors to provide more, but they generally don't.

      I'm in Canada and I'm on thyroid medication. Every single year:

      I go to the doctor
      He orders the same blood test
      I take it
      The results come in. He uses a computer program to see the dosage required (I see the program) , and writes a prescription.

      I could do this whole thing myself given that computer program and ability to prescribe myself. Well, a nurse could certainly do it and a pharmacist could certainly do it.

      This is the case for most general practice. You simply don't need a family doctor for most things. A lesser health professional will do in most cases.

      If there are complications, you will no doubt be referred to a specialist anyways.

      I 100%, we need a new 'basic doctor'... or empower nurses or nurse practitioners more like they do in Washington State.

      If engineers worked like doctors worked, you'd need a licensed professional engineer with a PhD to install a wireless router in your home.

    25. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure the American Medical Association (made up of doctors) is going to go apeshit over even the suggestion of this.

      Yup. A few months ago I was listening to NPR, and there was a spokeswoman from the AMA arguing that it should be illegal for people to sequence their DNA, because only a doctor is qualified to interpret the data. She didn't want to outlaw a treatment or drug, but mere knowledge about your own body.

      The AMA would outlaw oral thermometers if they thought they could get away with it.

    26. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by afidel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And Nurse Practitioners can even write (some) prescriptions. In my mind this is proposal only makes sense since we're already at an unbearable cost for medicine and yet if we continue doing things the way we're going costs will have to rise as we'll need more bodies to provide services for our aging population. In Germany (and I believe much of Europe) pharmacists can prescribe drugs for all sorts of common ailments, which is especially nice give the much more restricted office hours.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    27. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by garcia · · Score: 3, Informative

      You do realize that long-term usage of high blood pressure medicines, especially at a young age like I started them at (22), can cause kidney damage and the blood tests are meant to find those issues before they become a huge problem.

      So, it's not unnecessary testing. It's just that the doctors are too lazy/cheap to order it. Why not force them to make certain any potential problems are mitigated before they become LARGE issues?

      You should thank me for enforcing preventative care instead of waiting for a kidney transplant.

    28. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by curunir · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And it's precisely because doctors are too busy that something like this makes sense. It's been the case for a number of years that doctors have been less able to keep up-to-date with the latest information on prescription drugs. Between the rate of release, marketing from the pharmaceutical companies and the various medical studies, it's ton of information to process. Doctors either choose to concentrate on a very limited subset of available drugs or they fall woefully behind. Pharmacists are, in my experience, much more able to keep up, since they only have to care about the medication side of the equation.

      For what it's worth, I'm not talking about experience as a patient. In a previous job, I worked for a PBM (prescription benefits management) company and was in charge of integrating a third-part drug database into one of their web products. I attended conferences with doctors and pharmacists and both seemed to echo the sentiment that keeping abreast of both medical developments and new drug therapies was almost impossible. The conclusion that I reached was that it makes sense to decouple the diagnosis from the prescription process. Doctors should be free to recommend or prescribe specific medications, but they should prefer to simply supply a diagnosis and allow the pharmacist to prescribe the proper medication given a patients allergies, other medications and insurance.

      This seems like a sensible step towards that.

      --
      "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
    29. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Considering that the AMA only represents a small fraction of actual practicing doctors, who cares? Of course, considering that one of the reasons that the AMA represents so few doctors is because they have often sold their support for certain programs even though most doctors actually opposed said programs, whether or not they support this one will be a question of whether or not there is money in it for the AMA (not the doctors who are members of the AMA, but just the AMA itself...and its executives).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    30. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by bongey · · Score: 2

      "basic doctor" type degree

      There is already one , see Nurse Practitioner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_practitioner .
      "Nurse Practitioners treat both physical and mental conditions through comprehensive history taking, physical exams, ordering and interpreting diagnostic tests"
      They can also prescribe treatments and medications.
      Basically a masters degree+ board exam.
      Time to get NP isn't too long. My sister just passed her board exam last total two years will working 36+ hours week , 3 year old and 30 something husband that has the maturity of 3 year old at times.

    31. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I think the basic doctor degree you speak of already exists - they're called PA's (Physician Assistants). What you don't see is the work you doctor is (or should be) doing in the background. When the results from your panel come back, they should be interpreting them and making an adjustments if needed. If everything looks good or is unchanged and stable, then no news is good news.

      I see some good and bad here - there have been plenty of studies that show patients constantly lie to their doctors to hide things they may be embarrassed about, if they get to interact with a computer, I can see this might improve. Now if you have to interact with a pharmacist with everyone standing behind you within earshot, I can see the instances of lying dramatically increasing and the complications/deaths from improper medications increasing. We could also use Nurse Practitioners to do some of the basic work, but in my experience, they can be quite dangerous in mixing up drug interactions that aren't caught yet by the pharmacist (at least in the neurology space where I work)...but for general/family practice, they should suffice.

    32. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by elucido · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

      Sure, it is *theoretically* possible for doctors to provide more, but they generally don't.

      I'm in Canada and I'm on thyroid medication. Every single year:

      I go to the doctor
      He orders the same blood test
      I take it
      The results come in. He uses a computer program to see the dosage required (I see the program) , and writes a prescription.

      I could do this whole thing myself given that computer program and ability to prescribe myself. Well, a nurse could certainly do it and a pharmacist could certainly do it.

      This is the case for most general practice. You simply don't need a family doctor for most things. A lesser health professional will do in most cases.

      If there are complications, you will no doubt be referred to a specialist anyways.

      I 100%, we need a new 'basic doctor'... or empower nurses or nurse practitioners more like they do in Washington State.

      If engineers worked like doctors worked, you'd need a licensed professional engineer with a PhD to install a wireless router in your home.

      You should be able to go to a Pharmacy and buy a blood test. You shouldn't need a doctor to order it. That is the main problem because blood tests are relatively cheap but prevent the majority of problems.

    33. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by japhering · · Score: 1

      So yeah, there may be a certain value in not having to get a new prescription each year, but don't go overboard.

      Seeing an ophthalmologist is more than just getting a new prescription. It is about catching the myriad of treatable disease before they make you go blind.

    34. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by frosty_tsm · · Score: 1

      Thanks for raising all our insurance rates. Nothing like unnecessary testing.

      Sounds like the test was the most valuable part of the visit (while possibly the cheapest).

    35. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by elucido · · Score: 1

      Fuck 'em. The vast majority of minor problems and many major ones could be addressed by a "checklist/flowchart" system.

      Physicians only have a few minutes to go through their PERSONAL checklist/flowchart, and they often know less about the problem than the patient.

      My wife had Lyme and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, courtesy of the tick invasion of the South that so many LOCAL physicians don't even think to consider. She had to download and present info to (multiple) docs until they sent her for testing which verified HER self-diagnosis.

      What we need are more ways to use computers to do repetitive tasks that TASK-SATURATED physicians don't need to do. Sitting in an office for four hours to get a couple of minutes of interaction is bullshit, and it's also NORMAL.

      This is exactly the problem with the healthcare industry. We should be allowed to get blood tests OTC. Get diagnosed OTC. As long as we are willing to pay our own money to do it then we should be able to do the test without a doctors permission.

      The source of the problem is we have to ask a doctor for permission for a blood test. In reality we should be able to buy a blood test kit and test ourselves to monitor our condition. We should also be able to go to any Pharmacy and get any blood test we can afford. More expensive tests might require a doctor, an X-Ray or something like that, but a blood test should be provided by the patient to the doctor. I don't see any reason why we need doctors for monitoring.

    36. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing you haven't noticed the proliferation of outpatient clinics. Many of which don't even have a doctor on staff. They outfit the place with a nurse practitioner and usually a couple of RN, LPN, or LVN's to treat a wide range of medical maladies.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    37. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      "Health Theater". I like it. I'm going to remember that.

      ...or it could be every problem is a nail...

      I think there's an element of that. It's more likely that there's an unconscious bias in play somewhere. It's the same reason why double-blind studies are so important in research. Single blind is sufficient to counter the placebo effect, but double blind is mandatory to prevent physician bias. Unfortunately, double blind doesn't work well for medical diagnosis!

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    38. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by nobodyknowsimageek · · Score: 2

      IMHO, what's needed is a new, "basic doctor" type degree that has the power to prescribe most meds and monitor most medical conditions but doesn't 8-10 years of education and training costing the GDP of a small country.

      There is such a thing; they are called Physician's Assistant, or PA for short. They can do nearly everything a doctor can do, including prescribe most medications. The education requirements are significantly less than that for an MD.

    39. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by elucido · · Score: 1

      As someone who had high blood pressure and triglycerides and was put on medications for both, I will tell you that the kind of monitoring the doctor did was minimal and could easily be replaced.

      My "monitoring" was a couple of lipid panels run by the lab in his office, which could easily be outsourced to any place with lab techs who can draw blood. The rest of the monitoring was me taking my own damn blood pressure and charting the results in Excel.

      The doctor's value was near zero as far as I can tell, and less than zero if you add in the work I did changing my diet and losing a bunch of weight (all of which I did in spite of his advice), which lowered my blood pressure and totally altered my lipid profile.

      IMHO, what's needed is a new, "basic doctor" type degree that has the power to prescribe most meds and monitor most medical conditions but doesn't 8-10 years of education and training costing the GDP of a small country.

      We have a doctor "shortage" because it costs $250k to become a doctor, the people who actually get the degree specialize where the easy money is (high level of non-insurance reimbursed business which is paid in cash, up front, no on call hours, etc, like dermatology) and nobody wants to practice in high-voume, low-margin areas like being a GP.

      I think the patient should be able to monitor themselves, and go to Pharmacists for blood work. I think the time to see a doctor is when you have a real life threatening type problem. If you do the necessary monitoring and blood work you'll have a much lower probability of an emergency room visit.

    40. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by zlives · · Score: 1

      I wonder how many Pharmacists in other countries get sued for misdiagnosing or prescribing drugs...

    41. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Sulphur · · Score: 3, Funny

      I wonder how many Pharmacists in other countries get sued for misdiagnosing or prescribing drugs...

      They are trying to cope with a lawyer shortage.

    42. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by sjames · · Score: 1

      For whatever reasons, a visit to the doctor is sufficiently expensive that many people never do so at all.Most of the people being treated have no actual manifestation of the illness other than a test result. The typical workflow is draw blood, take blood pressure. If pressure is high normal, scold about diet.else prescribe meds. If cholesterol is high, prescribe meds. Lather, rinse, repeat.

      There's no reason a pharmacist can't do that in under 5 minutes for a lot less. This is especially true when for many the workflow is spend health insurance money on food and rent, hope blood pressure and cholesterol is OK.

    43. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by mjr167 · · Score: 1

      If you do not notice that you cannot do something as fundamental as see, it is obviously not impacting your ability to function. Glasses are optional. I can chose to not wear mine. If it is not impacting my ability to function, why should I be forced to go see a doctor to get new ones?

      The driving aspect is a separate aspect that should be addressed by the DMV. If we expect such radical and rapid vision changes, we should require the DMV to administer vision tests through renewal procedures more often. However, driving is also optional. I am not required to obtain and maintain a driver's license.

    44. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Insightful

      the massive workload in the ER comes from illegal aliens who use the ER for every little sniffle they get, and people who look like drug addicts looking for a fix.

      Christ, man, how can you know they're illegal? Or even aliens? You do realise that 16% of American citizens are Hispanic, don't you? And if you live in a border state there's going to be an even higher percentage?

      Those "people who look like drug addicts looking for a fix" are called "poor people". Both they and the Hispanics you seem to hate are at the ER because that's the only way the working poor can get health care in the US!

      One in four Americans' only health care is the ER. If you want to end those long waits, lobby your congresscritter for Canadian or European style health care (NOT Obamacare) so those "illegal aliens" and "homeless junkies" don't have to "use the ER for every little sniffle they get".

      PS: You're a God damned racist and classist bastard and I hope you learn what poverty feels like.

    45. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      In my mind this is proposal only makes sense since we're already at an unbearable cost for medicine and yet if we continue doing things the way we're going costs will have to rise as we'll need more bodies to provide services for our aging population.

      And not even just the elderly. My wife gets sinus infections regularly [0], and when she does, there's exactly one prescription medicine that cures it. My wife is a doctor and self-prescribing is a huge taboo, but her family practice doctor (sadly justifiably for liability reasons) won't write a prescription without an office visit. It would be hugely helpful if my wife could hit up a pharmacist for the medicine which reliably cures her illness, rather than having to wait to be seen by the doctor who is almost guaranteed to prescribe it anyway.

      [0] The long term cures are "move to a new climate" (which we're in the process of trying now) and "have one's sinuses drilled out by a Roto-Rooter". If plan A doesn't help out, she's much more receptive to occasional rounds of antibiotics than the much more drastic plan B.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    46. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by sjames · · Score: 1

      The sad thing is that the tests are quite simple to perform. Simple enough that if you can check your pool chlorine, you can manage it.

    47. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Then he went to the optometrist and found out that he was way off, so bad that he shouldn't have been driving that way.

      So, the only solution to that problem is mandate a 100% annual vision test for all licensed drivers. Otherwise you miss anybody whose vision was good 30 years ago and isn't good today. Simply making people who wear disposable contacts doesn't solve the driving problem at all.

      These laws basically just protect the medical industry from under-spending by consumers. They purport to have more noble goals, but if those goals were really important there are much more effective ways to accomplish them.

    48. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by sandytaru · · Score: 1

      Mine changed just this past year. And my optometrist did the "fitting." He also sells me my contacts at a better than market price.

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    49. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      And with anything serious, like possible cancer or heart attacks, they send the patients to a 'real' doctor. Nurse practicioners are kinda like medics. Good for field first aid & triage, but they won't go in after shrapnel, they'll stabilize the wounded as best they can & pass them up to the field hospital where they can be treated by MDs.

      IIRC, I read something similar to this working in China. They had basically overtrained medics, called 'berefoot doctors', running the local clinics in the villages to deal with things like tetnus shots & setting broken bones. Anything more serious, they called in the 'city doctors'.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    50. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Yup, they even want to go a step further than that.

      The AMA model is this:

      1. Doctor thinks you might need a DNA test. Doctor fills out a form and checks that he needs to know what variant you have on 3 particular genes.
      2. DNA testing lab does an analysis giving the value of 750k different SNPs.
      3. DNA testing lab notes the 3 that were ordered, sends a report back with the variant of each of those, and deletes the data for the other 749,997 positions.
      4. Doctor decides he needs another SNP tested. Patient sends in another vial of spit and pays for another test, and so on.

      The idea of just letting patients have a 1MB dump of their SNPs for $200 is completely foreign to the AMA. Apparently the better model is to pay $160 for two doctor's visits, plus $200 for a lab test to give you 3 SNPs, on a nice typewritten report that the doctor might let you have a copy of, perhaps requiring you to pay a fee for reproduction of your chart.

    51. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by SeNtM · · Score: 1

      If they look illegal, then they must be!!!

      American's do not have dark skin and speak a foreign language!

      But really, it is an ER! There is a triage process as well as ambulance runs that usually aren't visible to those in the main waiting areas. If you wanted faster service, stop applying pressure! As soon as the nurse realizes that you are dumping blood all over the floor, they will get you to a bed. As long as your condition in not "immediately life threatening," it does not meet the standard of emergency.

      And above all else, remember, you are not special simply because you are an English speaking caucasian.

      --
      "There ought to be limits to freedom." -George W. Bush
    52. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by MetalliQaZ · · Score: 1

      Taking an hour - an hour! - to make sure you can effing SEE is that much of a bother to you?

      I know that I can see. I don't need someone to tell me that I can see.

      --
      "Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
    53. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by geekboybt · · Score: 1

      Regarding your "basic doctor" notion, we have one - nurse practitioners.

    54. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Except that malpractice insurance companies tell the doctor that if he doesn't order up every test in the book and he misses something, he's on his own. Yeah, everybody, including the doctors know that in 99% of these cases, the test is a waste of time and resources. In the other 1%, though, it can find something that may severely impact somebody's life. It's not a sure thing, though. When the first question the plantiff's lawyer asks at your malpractice trial is, "Why didn't you test for $HOUSE_DISEASE_OF_THE_WEEK?", the answer had damned well better not be "Because there have only been 3 cases of that in the last 30 years", it better be "We did. The test was inconclusive. We need better, cheaper tests."

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    55. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by MetalliQaZ · · Score: 1

      You really value your vision, don't you? In your mind, your eyes aren't even worth a once-a-year trained-professional review. If I were religious, I'd pray for your eyes, *someone* has to watch out for them since you clearly won't

      You totally miss my point. I check my vision every day by opening my eyelids and going to work. When they hurt, get discolored, or get blurry, I'll go to a doctor about it. I don't need someone holding my prescription hostage based on a yearly timetable.

      --
      "Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
    56. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by afidel · · Score: 1

      Ah, it looks like the DEA finally fixed the prescribing narcotics thing in 2005, prior to that a NP needed a physician with a DEA number to prescribe scheduled drugs.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    57. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by sjames · · Score: 1

      You mean government agencies like Kaiser and other HMOs? Or do you mean those damned 99%ers and their sub million dollar incomes?

      The problem is the damned expensive medical supplies and medications and the batshit insane forms that have to be filled out to get paid.

    58. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't want anyone but a trained surgeon doing any surgery more complex than lancing a boil on me, and I don't want anyone but a trained anestesiologist putting me under. The rest of the stuff you mention nurses usually do, anyway. I haven't had a doctor give me a shit since I was a kid, and that was half a century ago.

      I had my tonsils out at age 6, and there were complications. It would have been far worse if a nurse or someone else without training had done it. Nope, I'll stick to a doctor if you don't mind.

    59. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by muridae · · Score: 1

      Fact is these are serious chronic conditions that need some monitoring by doctors.

      Yeah, but how much? That's the big question. For simple things like hypertension that's easily controlled with a medication or two, a script could handle it - input age, sex, weight, allergies, co morbid conditions and a couple of other things and out pops some pills. The next problem is getting the patient to take them and seeing if they work.

      Carefully checking the efficacy of a blood pressure medication is probably something that needs a human, a physical exam of some limited sort and some lab work (at some point). A bit more than you could typically do in a pharmacy, but you certainly don't need a full scale medical clinic. The problem comes when the person smokes, is trying to get diabetes, has hypertension and, oh, their back hurts and 'what's this rash'. Then you need the full monty. Your typical doctor's office is designed to handle pretty much every ambulatory complaint and maybe a minor emergency or two. Pharmacists, not so much.

      So, as a patient, you have a problem (actually several). Exactly who are you supposed to be seeing? Do you need to see the goofball wearing the white lab coats (why lab coats? I hate lab coats. I didn't even wear them when I did wet lab things.) Maybe. How about the nice nurse practitioner? Maybe. Nobody really knows. All of the data is horribly skewed. The nurse practitioner centric data tends to include mostly 'simple' patients with only one or two problems. The doctor centric literature has stories of edge cases that the NP missed (and likely 5/10 physicians would do exactly the same). Like much data in what essentially amounts to the social sciences, it can be read however you want to read it.

      Add in that possibility of a kiosk option, and the fact that people are more likely to lie to a computer about their smoking/drinking/sugar habits, and you have a big potential for trouble.

      Me, I'm fond of the way my doctor runs things. If I call and just say "I'm sick, can I see someone?" then I am more likely to see the PA or one of the RNs, who will get my doctor to sign off on any major changes. Blood-work, I get copies of the complete labs mailed to my apartment. Major incidences, I can call and say "Look, I need my doctor to straighten this out, when's her next available opening?" and get an appointment to see her directly and talk out any problems. Plus, she knows my case well enough, now, that she keeps 10 or more minutes set just for maintenance work of making sure scripts are refilled, referral numbers are up to date, and talking to make sure we are both on the same page for further treatment and available options. And that's just my general doctor; I won't see specialists who herd me through an office.

      tl;dr - most people's doctor problem is the patient. Stop lying to doctors, and make sure they aren't lying to you by getting copies of labs and blood-work. And if they are incompetent, get a new doctor!

    60. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Yup. I'm visiting the US and I've forgotten to take my disposable contacts with me (I prefer glasses for most kinds of activities). I was amazed that I can't buy contact lenses here. In the end, I paid $99 for an eye exam (that has confirmed my current prescription) and only then I could buy contacts (through lens.com ).

      In my home country lenses are sold over the counter (sometimes even in "health isles" in supermarkets).

    61. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by compro01 · · Score: 1

      It is so bad that the US Federal Government payments for health care are per capita what Canadians pay for health care.

      Greetings from Blighty! Your govt is paying out more per head than my govt. And we all get "free" healthcare. Ain't civilisation grand!

      Actually, government spending between the US and Canada on healthcare is about the same. The difference is that the US pays again as much in private spending.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    62. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      And why would you need all of this for a 20-year old?

    63. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Did you read TFA? (Rhetorical question, sorry, you obviously didn't.) TFA claims "Pharmacists and doctors have lined up on opposite sides of the issue," and quotes one as saying "medicine is just not that simple. You canâ(TM)t just follow rules and weigh all the pros and cons. It needs to be individualized."

      Which is conflating two ideas and obvious horseshit. Of course you follow rules and weigh pros and cons. That's all anyone of competence does. That + patient history + family history = individualized care. Sorry, but that's it. Doctors are not superhuman; they are simply exposed to a larger quantity of specialized knowledge than the layman, and that knowledge is not irreplaceable.

      But the obvious tip off here is that physicians are claiming that, regardless of the drug, people should not have access to it except by prescription. Nevermind the fact that a lot of drugs end up going OTC on their own. Nevermind the fact that the whole point of pharmacists is ostensibly to help patients choose the correct medicine. Pharmacists are still trained thoroughly for this role, but today they're basically glorified soda jerks in the US.

      Now, I'm not going to claim that ALL physicians are opposing this -- my old man's a doc and he supports this idea -- but it's clear that those who are fighting this are doing so for the money, not for their concerns about the patient.

    64. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      As an asthmatic for life, I can't even imagine such a thing. Now, because of the propellant change with someone having a patent on that, all asthma inhalers cost a fortune plus going for new prescriptions that the doctors get a kickback on every 3-6 months. It might not save much, but everything helps.

    65. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Doctors are busy enough they don't need to do things just "to make more money."

      Exactly! Damn those doctors and their $150,000+ medical school debt!

    66. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      You must go to a different pharmacy than me. Walgreens seems to be staffed with some nice folks on work-release. When I lived abroad where you could get whatever you wanted at the pharmacy, it was often hard to discern if you were being recommended drugs based on cost/profit or genuine need.

    67. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      What? they still have to work under a physician that still does and you probably have to have a prior history of needing such things. I know some states are different too.

    68. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Unless you can't afford it.

    69. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      Yep, and drug rehab, pill mills, etc.

    70. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by YoungSaint · · Score: 1

      My father had that surgery and I do not advise it unless the procedure has drastically changed in the last ten years. 1. endless complications including another severe infection. 2. rather long recovery time (to be expected on anything that sensitive really...) 3. He required two more to actually fix the complications from the first. 4. After a trip to nevada he to this day wants to move there. 5. Visibly crooked nose afterwards.

    71. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by afidel · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it looks like it varies by state, but prior to 2005 a NP could not register for a DEA number AFAIK.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    72. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Thyroid is a perfect example of where the American system falls down. It falls down now, and it will fall down even worse when they try to "fix" it.

      I know people NOW, who do not get sufficient testing for thyroid issues, to monitor and moderate their dosage.

      And I also know, that if people were to take synthroid who do not NEED it - well, it may make them FEEL FANTASTIC. Before they keel over from a heart attack. That's exactly how this will play out if they deregulate this otherwise very simple task in the US. Americans are fucked up mental head-cases, and we're going to dose-up to feel-good. Prescription med overdoses are already one of the leading causes of death. On second thought, maybe taking doctors out of the loop and introducing a little personal responsibility will be a good thing.

    73. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, those are the kinds of thinks that are making her willing to take antibiotics for the rest of her life. I'm hopeful that the move from the upper Midwest (scads of ragweed pollen, etc.) to the SF bay area will make a sufficient difference that we can stop worrying about it.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    74. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Eponymous+Hero · · Score: 1

      doctors don't know shit anymore. if your symptoms match up to a drug they've been lobbied to prescribe then there you go, take 2, call in the morning and if it's not better we'll up the dosage. does any sane or competent doctor prescribe an antidepressant whose side effects include suicidal thoughts (paroxetine)? doctors are prescribing drugs for scurvy, ffs. the AMA will not give a shit if you diagnose yourself and get your own drugs as long as there's some way for them to bill you for it.

      --
      insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
    75. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      nobody wants to practice in high-voume, low-margin areas like being a GP.

      This isn't completely true, but the added cost of malpractice insurance has pretty much guaranteed that you have to really want to do it.

    76. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Luyseyal · · Score: 1

      If engineers worked like doctors worked, you'd need a licensed professional engineer with a PhD to install a wireless router in your home.

      Yeah, and don't get me started on the butt-chewing I got over changing the yellow fluorescent bulbs at work with daylight spectrum ones. Physical plant genuinely suggested you needed to be a licensed electrician to do it.

      Fer cryin' out loud.
      -l

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    77. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      All systems of government are dependent on a taxation system and some form of security forces. Of course you can pretend you do not need to tax people and just borrow instead and then have the next government pay the bill. Life sure is grand...

    78. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      It's like half of the states are for this medical mj thing and the other half are totally against it. I personally think if they want to do that then isolate the chemicals. Smoking anything has got to be bad.

    79. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by roman_mir · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you want to end those long waits, lobby your congresscritter for Canadian or European style health care

      - well that's stupid. USA used to have a system that was much better than what its current system is but also it was much better than the systems found around the world, which are going to fail, by the way, because they are part of the reason the economies of the socialist nations are being destroyed. They are not the entire reason, of-course, the entire reason is everything that governments do, from social security to health care and education and all monopolies that they protect, including the banking industry.

      USA used to have cheap and affordable health care and insurance based on actual free market, that was before the gov't decided to collude with the insurance, drug manufacturing and health care industries, which combined with the Federal reserve allowed to create more fake money, part of which could be sent to the politicians.

    80. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by afidel · · Score: 1

      totally offtopic but since you brought it up....
      They tried that, artificial THC is crap, there are a LOT more cannabinoids than just THC in mj. Vaporization below the ignition temperature is probably the best method from a lung health versus benefit standpoint (though there have been peer reviewed studies showing mj smokers having a lower incidence of lung cancer than the general population).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    81. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 4, Informative

      Christ, man, how can you know they're illegal? Or even aliens?

      Well, the American College of Emergency Physicians seems to think so:

      In some hospitals, as much as two-thirds of total operating costs are for uncompensated care for illegal aliens. As a result, hundreds of emergency departments have closed. In Los Angeles, for example, 10 hospitals have closed in the past five years because of uncompensated care.

      http://www.acep.org/content.aspx?id=25206

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    82. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by afidel · · Score: 1

      Here's the transcript.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    83. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Dishevel · · Score: 2

      Of course one could say that by allowing employers to get away with this shit and encouraging illegal immigrants to sneak across the border through the desert is damn close to murder as well. Illegal immigration kills many illegal immigrants. So if you want to not murder tons of illegal immigrants you should probably just throw out the borders completely and cease to be a nation or crack down hard on the employers. Give a job to an illegal and you no longer have a business. That would save a lot of lives.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    84. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      It is because the loss of eyesight is so gradual you do not notice it. You also try to compensate by squinting without noticing it.

    85. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      There are machines which can surface scan your eye and detect the lens correction required (if any). They are much more accurate than having a doctor making you look at charts.

    86. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by couchslug · · Score: 1

      There's an easy way to sort and preserve exclusivity for American citizens.

      National biometric identification also linked to medical records. I essentially have this with my military retiree ID card linked to the DEERS system.

      I agree on national health care. I also advocate the US use its resources for Americans. No foreign aid, no recreational wars, and a harshly isolationist foreign policy instead of bleeding taxpayers to death enforcing corporate globalism.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    87. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by shiftless · · Score: 1

      No, actually the AMA isn't full of fascist dictators like 99% of our government. Well, at least not to the same extent, not yet anyhow. You do know that the AMA was one of several groups strongly opposing marijuana illegalization in the 30s?

    88. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      "In some hospitals" So that could be 3 out of the thousands of hosptials across the country.

      It isn't the illegal aliens causing the problem, its people that cant buy insurance because some political group would rather people just die than give everyone equal care.

      Guess what, people without coverage are not going to sit at home and die, they are going to go to the ER which is much more expensive than having regular covered doctors visits for preventive care.

      Guess who pays for the uninsured visits?

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    89. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Rei · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Enough with nanny laws. Let people do what they want to their own bodies. What's hard about that concept? I mean, unless you're talking about public health issues (like, say, antibiotic overuse), it's not really anyone else's business. Doctors should be doctors, not gatekeepers.

      And as for "misdiagnosis", the more people you remove from the equation, the less people there are to sue. Eventually it comes down to just you and the store you bought it from - and what are you going to do, sue them for selling you something that's perfectly legal to sell because you used it stupidly? Think you'd have much success suing Home Depot for selling you the saw that you used to accidentally cut off your finger because you used it wrong?

      --
      We're practicing our labials.
    90. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      The main reason for the repeated prescription visit is of course bad side affects from the medications. It is blatantly obvious that the pharmaceutical corporations can not be trusted in this regard as such an independent review of the medication in action is success and side affects is required to ensure patient safety.

      The best way going forward would be for prescription to be drug description based with no branding allowed (reality the same drug should be of the same quality by all companies producing it), patient can then make a selection from a range of options with costs detailed or in the case of collective medication price negotiation the cheapest identical drug.

      It would be nice if during the prescription visit, the doctor and patient reviewed the outcome of that medication use and upload it to a drug review and audit database to monitor that actual drug success or failure rate to ensure bad medication are removed from market as soon as possible. So even after a drug is approved it is still subject to continual review ie every drug approval is permanently temporary subject to actual success/failure rates (if the numbers start looking bad approval is withdrawn).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    91. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      from that they know what 90% of case load is going to be for some doctors

      This is my point though if doctors are going to choose to use the "90% is good enough" model and not examine to catch the other 10% of cases then we should replace them by a computer because that can do the job just as well. Then, just as with a doctor, if the computer-based common diagnosis is wrong you go to a doctor who does examine you. The only disadvantage is that you can easily game a computer by selecting the right options to get the drug you desire so if people decide that they need drug X e.g. antibiotics for a cold (which is silly because they do not work on viruses) they will now be able to go to the auto-dispenser and select the right symptoms to get it.

    92. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by JDevers · · Score: 1

      That is BS, malpractice suits against physicians are notoriously hard to fight...much less win. The only specialty that runs the risks of which you speak are OB/GYNs and pediatricians.

    93. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by JDevers · · Score: 1

      In my experience in long term care, pharmacists do a tremendously better job of catching drug interactions than the physicians. Our consultant pharmacists literally catch multiple drug interactions a month in prescriptions that the physicians wrote, some quite severe. To be honest though, the computer system catches 95% of them before they are even ordered.

    94. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Care to explain all those medical malpractice attorney commercials on tv all the time then? If there was no money in it, those ads would be nonexistant. Remember, when you sue somebody, the attorney takes it on contingency. 1/3 of the winnings. Why you think they like cool slam-dunk class action law suits? A few hundred million, and your firm can retire.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    95. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      The chemicals that work could be extracted and the ones that don't like tar could be done away with. Even vaporization is not as good as it could be. IF there are cannabinoids that do the job without the high, why not isolate and and use them? Of course no drug company would do this, they have already tried to create synthetic substitutes so that they could get a patent. With what's going on now, it just makes it look like advertising dope. Even cigarettes are not supposed to be advertised throughout the world. Prescription drugs aren't advertised as something like #1 skunk or whatever. If they want make a drug of it, do it right.

    96. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by swamp_ig · · Score: 1

      Not only that but this is the Pharma companies wet dream! They already have direct selling to consumers in the US, now they can sell all of these medicaitons to anyone, regardless of need or not.

      What's more, the consumers won't have anyone to sue when the s**t inevitably hits the fan, since they were prescribing it to themselves essentially off label. They didn't read the fine print on the TV ad with young people bouncing along the beach with their boobs out, that says this class of blood pressure med is contraindicated in anyone with heart failure, or over a particular age as it causes them to die faster. Tough s**t! Consumer not using as directed.

      Blood pressure medications have nasty side effects. Sure doctors sometimes stuff up and make mistakes, which costs lives, but at least they have some chance of learning from the experience. Direct to the consumer? They stuff up, then they don't get the benifit of learning from mistakes.

    97. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by CuriHP · · Score: 1

      The DMV already administers an eye test when you renew your license.

      --
      If it's not on fire, it's a software problem.
    98. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      That seems to vary by practice. My wife has a similar history of sinus infections, and it's reached the point where she can call into the doctor's office andexplain her symptoms to the doctor; and he'll call in the prescription.

    99. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      I've seen that too, but her current doctor (who she likes in most other ways) wants to make sure that this sinus infection is the same as the previous 20 which developed and presented in an identical manner.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    100. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      >>>We have a shortage of doctors in the USA

      That's what happens when the government installs price-fixing (via Medicare/Schip pricing) and says doctors can't charge more than X amount for a procedure. (Oftentimes below actual cost.) Young adults choose other careers that pay more money, or don't require 70 hour weeks or 10 years training.

      A number of doctors in interviews have even said they plan to quit the profession, since they will be losing money. It's a well-known economic fact that price-fixing creates shortages.

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    101. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

      I would.

      Just as I'd rather have a technician solder a CPU onto my board, rather than an engineer. The tech has more experience. - Likewise the nurses would be more-experienced than doctors to remove tonsils if they did it day-after-day-after-day.

      --
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    102. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      I'm prone to sinus infections, too. I don't tolerate antibiotics well; they leave me nauseous and lethargic. I started using nasal irrigation with saline and sodium bicarbonate when the symptoms first present, and have not had a full blown infection in years.

      My doctor suggested it grudgingly after I asked about surgery. He said that a lot of patients don't like the idea of putting water in their nose. This was before it became a trendy TV-endorsed thing, maybe it is more mainstream now.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    103. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      There are common eye diseases that don't have visible symptoms until permanent damage has been done. You also can't see heart disease or many cancers until permanent life-threatening damage has accumulated.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    104. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by jtalle · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure the American Medical Association (made up of doctors) is going to go apeshit over even the suggestion of this.

      But of course they will. Using my Medical Terminology skills, I can translate this "Expanding many prescription medications to OTC interferes with that important relationship without offering any real benefits to improve patients' health or reduce their costs." into this "We'll lose income due to a decrease in billable visits."

    105. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      The DMV already administers an eye test when you renew your license.

      That depends on your DMV. The last time I checked there were 50 of those in the US alone. Mine certainly does not check vision regularly, and I've yet to hear of any that check annually, which is what current rules around contact lens prescriptions revolve around.

    106. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by DedTV · · Score: 1

      There's a very small ethnic population where I live (meaning, there's very few illegals), yet the Emergency Rooms are still packed.
      The reason for Emergency Rooms being packed has nothing to do with the patients' immigration status. They're packed because it's often the only way for someone to see a doctor when they're sick or injured in a timely manner.

      Many people work during doctor's hours, don't have employers that grant paid sick leave and/or don't have any 24 hour clinics or doctors with late hours. And some people have skeezy jobs where calling in sick could even cost them their job. So an Emergency room is their only option to see a doctor without losing a day's pay or their job.

      And good health care and benefits don't change anything. If anything, that makes it even worse. If I call my Doctor's office on Monday and tell them I have a lung infection, they'll usually be able to squeeze me in sometime early the next week. Because "it doesn't cost anything to see the doctor to check every sniffle and bruise because insurance will cover it", all the doctors under my insurance are booked solid weeks in advance. So if I'm really sick, it's off to the emergency room to sit around a bunch of other sick people, hoping I don't add something else to my existing condition, to get a prescription for some basic antibiotics to treat it before it gets serious because it's the only good option.

      Something like this, where someone knows what's wrong with them or has something that is easily diagnosed can get a needed medication without having to see a doctor would help reduce the load on emergency rooms and allowing pharmacists to give medication for chronic conditions without needing to get a doctor's approval would help reduce the load a bit on Primary Care physicians as well.

    107. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

      Guess who pays for an army of cheap, easily exploitable labor that pays no taxes.

    108. Re:Cue huge pushback from the AMA in 3...2... by Druegan · · Score: 1

      I clean parking lots and pick up trash for a living. Occasionally also drive a dump truck. Before taxes I make $19k a year. After taxes and fuel to get to work and back, knock that down to $12k or less, depending on gas prices..

      I currently operate on the "Get better on my own or die" health plan. As in, I have none. I recieve no government handouts, no state assistance. Insurance? Ha! Emergency Room? Ha! One visit to the ER, and I'm dealing with harassing phone calls from the collections leg-breakers for the next year trying to insist that their recieving a check from me is more important than putting food on my plate.

      This is even after filling out the reams of "assistance program" paperwork at the hospital. No thank you.

      Doctor's visit to get a prescription? Sure, if I don't want to eat that week.

      From where I sit, the "non-working poor" seem to have better access to services than I do, and I'm actually out *trying* to make a living and contribute something meaningful to society. Maybe they have a better working knowledge of these systems than I do, I dunno. But for me, "medical care" is what is available when something happens to me so bad that I lose consciousness and an ambulance scrapes me off a road somewhere when I'm in no fit state to object.

  2. As one with asthma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    it would be great to not have to visit the doctor once a year just so I can keep breathing.

    1. Re:As one with asthma by couchslug · · Score: 2

      Try being diabetic. What a dick-dance to get basic survival supplies which are RATIONED to maintain a REVENUE stream...

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    2. Re:As one with asthma by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      You can blame the lack of OTC syringes on the war on drugs.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  3. Asthma medication by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This is a great idea for asthma medication. A lot of poor people don't get decent asthma medication, and end up with ineffective and harmful over-the-counter stuff instead, because they can't go to the doctor. We've had that whole discussion here before.

    1. Re:Asthma medication by DanTheStone · · Score: 1

      See this Slashdot story for why this is now necessary. They banned the OTC inhalers. http://science.slashdot.org/story/11/09/23/2247222/epa-bans-cfc-based-asthma-inhalers

    2. Re:Asthma medication by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      This is a great idea for asthma medication. A lot of poor people don't get decent asthma medication, and end up with ineffective and harmful over-the-counter stuff instead, because they can't go to the doctor. We've had that whole discussion here before.

      Since insurance (both private and government programs like Medicaid) tends to cover prescription drugs but not OTC drugs, making existing drugs OTC rather than prescription, while it may drop the retail price, often makes them less accessible to poor people.

      OTOH, for the same reason, it reduces costs to public and private insurers, and increases drug company profits.

    3. Re:Asthma medication by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      Not true. Asthma inhalers are a great example. The old school CFC inhalers cost about $2 without a prescription. The FDA's ban forced everyone to use the non-CFC inhalers which were $30, and most peoples co-pay, because it was non-generic was $20. But add to that a $20-$50 co-pay for seeing the doctor to get the script and it's actually a lot cheaper to just pay for it yourself if you can.

      Then you get into the big-dog medications like Advair and the co-pays can be in excess of $100. (Mine is) but to get this locally it's several hundred dollars. If I can get it without prescription, then I can order it from somewhere cheaper. There's generic advair outside the US that's $35... I'm not sure what affect this policy change would have on that sort of thing but I bet those Canadian websites would stop asking for prescriptions pretty quick.

      The entire medical system is an organized price gouging machine operated by the pharmaceutical companies who bride the doctors, congress and put their own staff in the FDA to sway policy.

    4. Re:Asthma medication by medv4380 · · Score: 1

      I remember that ban. Happened twice. First time caught every Asthmatic off guard like my brother. Nothing like the middle of winter where Boise gets Inversions that make our air worse than LA. Then he had to go to the Doctor to get a prescription, and the prescription only last like 6 months at the most. So he'd have to go in again and so on. They lifted the Ban temporarily and put it back in place later. My brother stocked up on the over the counter meds. He still has 1 left that will expire in a month or so. Between the doctors visits and the prescription cast the Over the Counter Meds are usually well worth their money. I even remember him telling the story of the doctor visit "So you think you have Asthma?" was the first question. My brother didn't take that question too well since he's had asthma his entire life and at the time he was 26, I think, and had better doctors diagnose him than the quack that he had to get a prescription from.

  4. Fantastic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I am hugely thrilled at this prospect. It would mean that I can have more respect for my doctor, rather than looking at her as a person with a magic signature. For the past several years I have been going to a "Minute Clinic" which is a nurse-operated room, in which the nurse takes my vitals, reads questions off a computer screen and enters the answers, and then gives me a prescription. There is definitely room for medical judgment there, but mostly that judgment is used to send you to a doctor if the computer tells the nurse to do so. There's no reason for me to need to see a person for many types of illnesses when a questionnaire can suffice - no reason other than institutional inertia.

    My mom used to tell me about the old days when you asked the pharmacist for medicine - told them what your problem was and they would give you the cure. There's another profession rooted in the old ways for no good reason. The pharmacy takes pills out of one container, counts them, puts them into another container, and sticks a label on it and bills my insurance. Takes 15 minutes and requires a highly trained pharmacist for reasons I cannot fathom.

    I have a hard time believing people go into primary care medicine (or pharmacy, for that matter) to see jerks like me, who just want a piece of paper that says I can have my pills. Seems like this could be a benefit for all.

    1. Re:Fantastic by NormalVisual · · Score: 2

      here's another profession rooted in the old ways for no good reason. The pharmacy takes pills out of one container, counts them, puts them into another container, and sticks a label on it and bills my insurance.

      Because the pharmacist is the one that's likely to see that the doc-in-a-box prescribed indomethacin to deal with that gout attack you're having, but that you're already on an ACE inhibitor for your high blood pressure and thus at risk for getting dangerously high potassium levels from the combination of the two drugs. The doctor *should* know this, but my experience has been that pharmacists are a lot more on-the-ball than doctors when it comes to pharmacology and especially knowing how drugs can interact with one another.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    2. Re:Fantastic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      1 Medication interactions
      2 going through your list of problems and finding meds which do not make other things worse.
      3 people on slashdot may be able to look up and understand a great deal about medications and things but for Average Joe this would be bad. Most people cant even follow a typed out list of instructions after the physician visit I really don't think they are going to read the package insert on any medication (It should come with every drug you are prescribed)
      4 understanding what things really mean, every condition has a wide variance in how it presents and the effect on the patient, If I write COPD as a diagnosis (fairly common) that could look very different depending on where they are in the disease course and several other factors. What drug does the patient get?, Is it add driven?, should I put them on spiriva, proventil, symbicort, advair, daliresp, theophyline, prednisone, oxygen? do they need a nebulizer? The pattern of I have x thus I need y is not all there is to it, some drugs shorten your lifespan but the benefits of those drugs in some patients outweigh that risk, sadly these discussions are not had with patients by many physicians as the time is not there (10 minute visits, of which the nurse is rooming the patient for 4 minutes and it takes 2 minutes for them to walk from the lobby to the room.)
      Medicine is a hard business the hardest part of which can often be dealing with the social aspects of it, your doctor is overworked and probably does 2-4 hours of work after being done with clinic hours (likely more depending on call schedules and hospital work loads).

    3. Re:Fantastic by ortholattice · · Score: 1
      I hope the "certain infections" they mention doesn't imply antibiotics.

      Until a year or so ago, you could buy antibiotics without a prescription in Mexico. They changed the law to make a prescription required, because too many people were entering the hospital with antibiotic-resistant infections caused by their overuse for virtually any ailment by people who didn't know better.

      (I found this out in Mexico last year when I developed a real skin infection - cellulitis - from walking barefoot on the beach. At first I was annoyed that they changed the law, since I had to pay a doctor $50 to make a house call to my hotel room to get a prescription, but in retrospect I can see the point.)

    4. Re:Fantastic by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      You know that and I know that, but try telling that to a doctor sometime. ;-)

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    5. Re:Fantastic by sjames · · Score: 1

      All the more reason the pharmacist could just take over a lot of this and put his education to use.

    6. Re:Fantastic by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      For one thing (and this probably says more about the systematic failures than anything else), pharmacists are more likely than your doctor to catch drug interactions before you do something potentially harmful to yourself.

      Doctors I've had don't have a great deal of training in the intricacies of drugs that don't directly relate to what they do on a daily basis. They sometimes don't know the intricacies of drugs which do relate to what they do on a daily basis if it's incredibly broad in scope (as oncology is). Pharmacists, on the other hand, are trained to know the ins and outs of every drug on the market (or at least every drug that passes through their hands).

      Just because you don't have experience in areas where the knowledge differential is as clear as it is important does not mean it doesn't exist.

    7. Re:Fantastic by swalve · · Score: 1

      Agreed. It would be a huge mistake to make antibiotics OTC.

  5. Generally, when prescription drugs.... by MEK · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ... are re-classified as no longer needing to be prescribed, insurance companies stop covering the cost of such drugs. Lots of expensive drugs (for allergies, for gatrointestinal problems) once covered by insurance are now totally NOT covered. A big win for insurance companies.

    --
    Credo quia impossibilis -- Tertullian
    1. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      I had the same thought but you beat me to it.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    2. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      >insurance companies stop covering the cost of such drugs

      He speaks the truth. This is a very smelly change. It benefits only the drug companies and the insurance companies. The doctors get cut out of the loop and the patients (who might be unaware that statins don't work) will carry on buying them because they don't have to visit one of the few enlightened doctors that understands this.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    3. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by captbob2002 · · Score: 1

      Yet another big win for the insurance companies.

    4. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Generally, when prescription drugs are re-classified as no longer needing to be prescribed,

      Some of the most common drugs never needed to be prescribed.
      The system is setup so that while a drug is under patent, it's also under prescription.
      Then the pharmaceutical companies soak the insurance companies for big payouts.

      Once the patent runs out, the generics show up, the drug is taken off the prescription list,
      and the pharmaceutical company replaces it with a slightly tweaked version that is under patent protection.
      Rinse, repeat, buy last year's blockbuster drug (at prescription strength!) over the counter for 1/20th the price.

      This proposal is just going to extend that farce to other wildly popular out-of-patent drugs

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    5. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by theNetImp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Right, but the difference between becoming 100% over the counter and what is being suggested is that they are still prescription drugs, you are just prescribing them to yourself by answering a list of questions. Making it so a person like me who has been sucking on the same albuterol inhaler for 20 years doesn't have to go to the doctor every time it's time for a refill, which is usually every couple months. Or for a refill on the Advair dry inhaler which is EVERY month. For something that hasn't changed in years, I see no reason why the doctor still needs a cut. It would also make it easier for asthmatics who run out of meds during the weekend. Do you know how long it takes to get the doctor on call to return your call? It's faster to go to the ER which I have done for just that reason. Helping increase our healthcare costs. I am all for this.

    6. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, price for drugs drop when demand increases and I'm sure it would increase if people can just buy heart or bloodpressure meds OTC from the pharmacist. You won't need insurance..... you can just pay cash directly. Like I do. Like my parents do.

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    7. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      +1 informative

      BTW someone talked about prescription drugs being patented (and therefore overpriced). You can always ask your doctor for over-the-counter versions, if you don't want the prescription version. It's a business transaction & just like any business transaction you negotiate the deal. You don't have to just blindly accept what the salesman (doctor) is handing you.

      --
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    8. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by PCM2 · · Score: 2

      BTW someone talked about prescription drugs being patented (and therefore overpriced). You can always ask your doctor for over-the-counter versions, if you don't want the prescription version. It's a business transaction & just like any business transaction you negotiate the deal. You don't have to just blindly accept what the salesman (doctor) is handing you.

      Some of the doctors I've been to recently have made a point of acting like this was not the case (when I agree it clearly is). As in:

      "I can prescribe you this version or I can prescribe you this other version, which includes something a little extra. I think either one will help your problem. It's up to you."

      "Well... how do I decide? What's the cost difference between the two?"

      "I don't know."

      I think to some extent they're not bullshitting me, because that's a complex question. It's largely the insurance companies that decide what the ultimate out-of-pocket cost of your treatment is. Maybe your insurance company will cover one version but not the other. Maybe it's all the same. But for the customer (patient) to explicitly not be told what their treatment might cost kind of flies in the face of everything every smart consumer has ever learned, and it's incredibly frustrating to feel victimized by a system that basically has you by the balls: Either pay or stay sick.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    9. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      There are some exceptions; but where a branded and generic version of a given drug are available, the dispensing pharmacist can substitute the generic compound even if the prescription is written for the common brand name.

      I'm told that this is maddening for a certain subset of people who experience different effects from the different versions; but it makes it substantially easier to do price-comparison at the point of sale, with somebody who can tap the insurance details into their system and actually quote you a price.

    10. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by berashith · · Score: 1

      i dont think that normal basic econ applies to big pharma. The manufacturing facilities are VERY expensive to license or re-tool, so the production level is not easily or quickly adjusted to demand. This moves things in the opposite direction than you would expect. Also, they have no reason ( especially if patented ) to reduce price for any reason. Look at the prices of the same drugs in the US and Canada. The difference in cost isnt only based on the Canadian government kicking money into the pool, a lot of it is a collective bargain with the drug makers to limit the price. This happens across the world, the price remains as high as the market will bear, at all times.

      My migraine meds cost more than $35 a pill. This is under insurance. The pills that work better with less side effects are more expensive, and I havent had insurance that covers my preferred drug in 3 or 4 years. Cost + side effects means that I actually dont take medication when needed, and adjust my life around the headaches when I can. At least my condition has a possibility of being suffered through with little impact. Some of the maintenance drugs they are looking at cant be skipped when inconvenient. (sorry to go off topic there)

    11. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by japhering · · Score: 1

      Depends on the drugs you require...

      For me, without insurance, 1 drug is $10 per quarter( $40 for the year), the other is $900 per quarter($2,700 for the year) total outlay $2,740 .. with my insurance I pay an extra $120 a year for drug coverage so with my insurance I pay $10 per quarter for 1 and I pay $600 for a full years supply of the other for a total outlay of $760 for the same drugs ..

      To get the drug coverage, I simply see my primary doctor 1 time (covered 100% by the insurance) and get 2 prescriptions for 90 days worth of meds with 3 refills.

      If you are dealing with a chronic disease, you go in for an annual checkup and get prescriptions for a years worth of all your drugs and never see the doctor again until next year unless you get sick or hurt ..

    12. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      There are unpatented drugs, with generics, that are only by prescription. You can always ask, but the doctor can always tell you it's impossible. Of course, even generic prescriptions tend to be cheaper. Usually you can work with the pharmacist to get a generic. Once you have the brand-name prescription, the doctor no longer needs to be involved at all.

      --
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    13. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      There are some exceptions; but where a branded and generic version of a given drug are available, the dispensing pharmacist can substitute the generic compound even if the prescription is written for the common brand name.

      I believe that's the law in California.

      But I was talking more about the cases where the prescription might be codeine or codeine plus acetaminophen, and one might be called codeine and the other might be called Gablibbitol. And the doctor doesn't really tell you that Gablibbitol is the same thing as codeine in so many words, but just says "hey there's these two drugs, I think Gablibbitol might be just slightly more effective, but either one will work." And that's true, the doctor is saying something absolutely factual. But you're being asked to make a decision and you're not being given all the facts -- specifically, you're not being told the cost difference between the two, which is probably the sole piece of information that could help you decide whether "just slightly more effective" makes a difference to you.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    14. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, price for drugs drop when demand increases...

      Is this satire? That only applies once a drug has gone generic (and only sometimes, at that). If they can make a bigger profit selling at a higher price point, they will. It may be extortion, but it's business.

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    15. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by Ken+D · · Score: 2

      It's more complex even than you have stated. The cost is going to depend upon which drugstore you go to, what your insurance company has negotiated with that drugstore (considered a trade secret BTW).

      It's a nightmare.

      And anyone who claims that Americans are not cost conscious when it comes to medical expenses is being willfully obtuse. They system is designed to make it impossible to comparison shop. You have a procedure done and you don't even know how many different entities are going to send you a bill.

    16. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      ... are re-classified as no longer needing to be prescribed, insurance companies stop covering the cost of such drugs.

      Once they are sold over counter, they will likely have a much bigger market, and will have to actually compete on price. So they will likely cost much, much less.

      Prescription drugs have high prices because patients don't even know the price until after the prescription is filled. Some prescription drugs have the same ingredient as an OTC drug, but just a higher dose. But they cost fifty times as much.

      This will be a win for the insurance companies, because it lowers their costs. It may also be a win for the drug companies because their market will be bigger. It will be a win for consumers because the cost of both drugs and insurance will be lower. The only losers will be the doctors who will no longer be able to collect their toll.

    17. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by Stickybombs · · Score: 1

      If those drugs are no longer covered and require no doctor visit, the cost will likely come down. Many people wouldn't pay $2,700 a year for some pills (or couldn't afford to). The price will have to come down if they want to keep selling that drug. On the other hand, if they lower the cost, the will be able to sell more, since it no longer requires a prescription.
      Also, just because you only have to pay $760 for your drugs, someone has to pay the rest. That money comes from other people paying into the insurance. If insurance no longer has to cover that $2,700 drug, the cost of coverage can decrease for everyone.
      So ultimately the cost might increase for people taking drugs that suddenly become uncovered, but it is unlikely that you would be stuck paying the full cost that is being paid (by other people) right now. The net result is better for the average person, even though individual costs would probably increase in extreme cases.

    18. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by zlives · · Score: 1

      whats even more interesting is that my HSA (health savings account) can't be used to pay for medication unless its prescribed.

    19. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by bandy · · Score: 1

      Or, you could live in a more-free country that allows you to buy drugs like Tylenol #1, which will generally knock the edge off of a migraine in no time flat. Instead, you have doctors afraid of writing 'scrips for any sort of painkiller (because the twin fears of lawsuits by patients and los federales, not to mention arrest and incarceration) and you end up taking something from the *triptan class of medicines which have side-effects that are nearly as bad as the migraine itself (in the near term).

      --
      "You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
    20. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      That one is more of a problem(which is presumably why the second formulation exists...)

      I'm not surprised that the doctor doesn't know(the vagaries of insurance coverage seem to exist to make a mockery of the idea that drugs even have a 'price'); but it seems like outrageously bad customer service that the doctor can't have the practice's billing-and-coding people look it up for you...

    21. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by steveb3210 · · Score: 1

      Depends on the prescription.. If you're taking a controlled substance - like Ritalin, the current (dumb) setup is you are supposed to physically go to the dr. and pick up a prescription that has to be hand signed and then bring that to the pharmacy. no refills allowed..

      Its really annoying and a waste of time - nor do I see how this manual process is really any better than phoning it in...

    22. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by Necron69 · · Score: 1

      I think you need to switch doctors. My Advair and Albuterol prescriptions have always come with refills that are good for one year. At most, I go see the doc for my asthma every six months. This is still annoying for a well controlled chronic condition I've had for 40 years, but hardly the end of the world.

      OTC status for drugs could be good or bad. For me and my allergies, what used to be a $30/month Zyrtec or Claritin prescription copay is now down to $16 for a whole year's supply of a generic version at Costco. Big win for me.

      What I'd really like to know is why the hell Advair and Albuterol are still under patent? I've been taking both for well over 15 years.

      Necron69

    23. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by ewieling · · Score: 1

      "It's more complex even than you have stated. The cost is going to depend upon which drugstore you go to, what your insurance company has negotiated with that drugstore (considered a trade secret BTW)."

      No it isn't. I can go to my pharmacist and ask what the "retail" cost of the drug is. This gives you a baseline to compare. Your insurance is not going to change the amount they cover because you go to a different pharmacy.

      --
      I really shouldn't have used someone else's email address for this account.
    24. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Bottom line still is, insurance companies want to make a profit and will still charge all they think they can get away with. I'm thinking, the only real workable fix is, get rid of the medical insurance 'industry', nationalize hospitals, and go to a Canadian or European style healthcare system, maybe with some input from the Chinese. Stop thinking of hospitals as 'profit centers' who will turn away/dump patients for lack of insurance just because 'there's a county hospital just down the street that has to take him' while showcasing the high end expensive treatments for the 1%.

      If you want private doctors, you can always go outside the system. The Brit's NHC still acknowledges private doctors that don't work inside the system and only take private patients.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    25. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by sjames · · Score: 1

      I assure you, the insurance company isn't taking a loss. The prescription drugs are just billed at a reasonable rate to insurance and sold for a lot more to out-of-pocket customers.

    26. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      Sometimes they will still cover them. Like Prilosec is much less with insurance than to buy it over the counter. They just change the dose.

    27. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by berashith · · Score: 1

      this is pretty much dead on. It is funny when they tell me I shouldnt drive during a migraine, and that the odd happenings are the headache and not the pills. While a lot of what is being perceived is a symptom, I am sure that the things that only ever happened after taking these pills are related to the pill!

      the triptans sure do make them some money though

      Im not sure about Tylenol1 #1, but the pain isnt my big thing. it is the light sensitivity, auras, and being unable to actually filter out background noise. I am lucky enough to actually have pain from lights in my dreams, while sleeping in a totally darkened room.

    28. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by desdinova+216 · · Score: 1

      the only flaw with that idea is that the savings will not get passed to the other people it will just go to the profits or executive salaries.

    29. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by Stickybombs · · Score: 1

      Possibly, but if they keep the price that high, very few people will be able to afford the drug; they will just find cheaper options.

    30. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      but it seems like outrageously bad customer service that the doctor can't have the practice's billing-and-coding people look it up for you...

      Well, they often don't have them. My mom used to work at a company that provided that service to doctors' practices.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    31. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      No kidding. I know someone with diabetes who started taking statins and their lipid profile kept getting worse afterwards. When I actually looked at the blood tests I noticed the LDL/HDL ratio was perfectly fine, they got prescribed statins just because they initially had a high total cholesterol count. It is common for diabetics to have higher total cholesterol than a regular person. I told the person to drop the statins, eat more fish or white meats, and the lipid profile got ok on its own. Of course when the person actually told the doctor what they did they got bewildered... their precious statins failed where a simple diet change worked.

      I have heard doctors say all sorts of stupid shit. Once my GP told me that potato chips have cholesterol... She didn't back down even after I asked her what was the animal fat content of a regular potato chip. Its just potatoes with vegetable oil and salt, it doesn't take a genius to infer that of course there will be no cholesterol on them. At most they may cause cancer from the high temperature process they go through bending molecules out of shapes, but if I cared about that I wouldn't be eating anything at all! Even water can kill you if you drink too much of it.

      As for having high triglycerides... it just means you are eating too much. The caloric intake is in excess of your energy needs and it will be stored as body fat. Reduce the caloric intake and the values will go back to normal levels...

    32. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      I still remember a couple of decades or so ago doctors saying "aspirin is bad" because it has unwarranted side effects like reducing platelet levels. I once told my doctor "great, so that means I won't have heart problems so easily" and they moaned. Now it is regularly prescribed to elder people to prevent heart problems even if they have no fever or pain. Insanity.

      I would take an aspirin with over a century of field trials and well known side effects over whatever shit they are trying to peddle to me today.

    33. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Ritalin? I would just drink coffee or have some Coca-cola instead...

    34. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Probably better to check out what is the cause of the migraines. It may be it is some food you eat. Some people get them after eating cheese or chocolate for example. Then either refrain from eating those foods or only eat them when you know you can afford to have a migraine... Other times it is due to sinusitis or something similar.

    35. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by desdinova+216 · · Score: 1

      I was talking more in terms of the prices for the coverage policy

    36. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by WeirdAlchemy · · Score: 1

      I absolutely agree with your first statement about the cost coming down. But for the second one, that's kind of the whole point of "insurance" -- to distribute the cost of extreme/unlucky cases throughout the group.

    37. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by berashith · · Score: 1

      good advice for most people. I have found many of my triggers, and after starting a serious course of running regularly, they have almost gone away completely ... I think this is blood pressure related. I can still trigger on extended stress ( the day after any long stress period is a killer for me) , mixing sugars ( beer + wine = bad. Even jack and coke will kick one off. but jack + jack + jack + jack is cool :) ) the other big one is bright contrast lights... reading in sunlight, or time on the beach or snow is likely to set one off. I can feel these coming usually, and if possible i retreat and at least minimize the effects. crappy flourescent lights can flicker badly as a cause also. thankfully no other foods. Finding these things can be tough, but it makes a huge difference in quality of life.

    38. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by JDevers · · Score: 1

      I can get generic Zyrtec at the grocery store for $30 for 300 pills...I'm not worried that my $10 insurance co-pay won't get me 30 pills any longer. Now what is funny is the people who still buy the brand name because they are convinced that they work better and just happen to cost 100x as much.

    39. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by Ken+D · · Score: 1
      A useless baseline. What's important is the negotiated (discounted) price. Then the insurance covers what they cover, and you pay the rest, whether that is a percentage, or a co-pay (and which of several possible co-pays)... example for BCBS:

      To fill your prescription at one of the participating Network retail pharmacies, ... you pay only the appropriate coinsurance or copayment amount.

      coinsurance = % appropriate = it varies based on the drug category

      which really means the more expensive the drug, the higher percentage of the higher price you will need to pay

      To file a claim for reimbursement from an out-of-network pharmacy: When your claim is processed, you will be reimbursed up to 55% of the drug's Average Wholesale Price (AWP) for covered medicines and supplies purchased at an out-of-network pharmacy.

      Where AWP is code for, "determined however the insurance company feels like", much like Reasonable and Customary is.

    40. Re:Generally, when prescription drugs.... by HereIAmJH · · Score: 1

      ... are re-classified as no longer needing to be prescribed, insurance companies stop covering the cost of such drugs

      In most cases, but not always. If the drug is available both with a prescription and without, your insurance will pay if you have the prescription. Insulin is an excellent example. Oddly, I can buy insulin without a prescription cheaper than I can with one. I pay either way since I'm on an HRA with a $1500 deductible, so I buy without even though I have the prescription. Syringes and test strips are the same and next year I'm readjusting my FSA to take the insurance co. completely out of the equation for them.

      --
      Another day, another update to a Google android app.
  6. Praise the FDA! I am FREE to PEE!! by Baldrson · · Score: 2

    I just want to thank the FDA for allowing me to pee without permission.

  7. This cannot and will not work by rs1n · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A few of my acquaintances are pharmacists, and one of their biggest contributions to the overall health and care of patients is drug interaction and reconciliation. Basically, what this means is that they check that a patient's drugs do not interact with each other in a negative way. They also help patients reduce the number of dependencies on medication. When you start to automate this process, you will need to have a centralized system that handles all patients' drug information as you have now removed the role of various trained medical professionals. A patient will not know that his need for a prescriptive drug may adversely affect his health because he is already taking another drug. That's sort of why we have pharmacists and doctors.

    1. Re:This cannot and will not work by saveferrousoxide · · Score: 1

      That's what lawsuits are for! Our litigious society is one step ahead of you rs1n!

    2. Re:This cannot and will not work by vlm · · Score: 1

      Can't you replace all of that with a very small shell script?

      I mean dpkg and its conflict detection code wasn't even all that cutting edge back in '93, I'm not seeing it as being a big challenge now. I guess what I'm asking is when was the first line of error detection code written that had an "and" clause and output an error message? The 50s I'd think?

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    3. Re:This cannot and will not work by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "you will need to have a centralized system that handles all patients' drug information as you have now removed the role of various trained medical professionals."

      Beats not being able to afford care. I'll take the trade.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    4. Re:This cannot and will not work by DeadDecoy · · Score: 1

      No. The problem is, this task depends on a LOT of contextual information that simply is not in the medication list. Like what is the patient taking from another doctor? Is the patient taking their pills? Did they stop due to: unknown reaction, felt better, forgot, rationing the pills because they cost too much, or didn't feel like it? Are the pills actually helping? Are there any conditions which may affect the effectiveness of the pills? (using pills as a catchall for whatever is prescribed). Sometimes the complete medication list is not stored in the computer or even in a collection of files across computers, but can only be revealed through patient-doctor interaction. And it's not just the pharmacist who performs reconciliation, rather this task may be performed at different levels of care by focusing on a different facet of the patient. Despite how useful computers are, there's a lot of process they simply cannot replace; streamline: maybe, replace: no.

    5. Re:This cannot and will not work by broken_chaos · · Score: 1

      The problem is getting all that information in one place, not really the basics of sorting out interactions. It'd need to be a large, centralized database (at least covering the entire country) and would need to, if this sort of change happened, also track a decent chunk of non-prescription medication somehow.

    6. Re:This cannot and will not work by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      It's also pretty uncommon to have a drug interaction so severe that it is even noticed, much less "life saving" or whatever Walgreen's system claims to do.

      I take it you've never talked to anyone who's been on warfarin, the most commonly-prescribed blood thinner in existence. Also, the one with the most drug (and non-drug) interactions, and the one most likely to kill you as a result of said interactions.

    7. Re:This cannot and will not work by OhPlz · · Score: 1

      When you start to automate this process, you will need to have a centralized system that handles all patients' drug information as you have now removed the role of various trained medical professionals.

      Does the proposal make it illegal for patients to ask their doctor about non-prescription medicine? Will there be barbed wire fences and men with machine guns at the pharmacy preventing access to the pharmacists?

      I've been using the same prescription drug for a skin condition for decades. Every year I'd have to see a dermatologist for five seconds so he'd sign off on the prescription once again. It was a waste of my time, his time, the insurance company's time, and my employer's time since the appointments were always during working hours. If I wanted to know the doctor's opinion about new drugs on the market or I thought it was losing its effectiveness or whatever and it was no longer prescription, I can still make an appointment or a simple phone call to ask.

      Now, the copay to see a specialist is five times what the drug costs. What the insurance pays is even worse. Fortunately, many primary care doctors have turned into walking prescription pads. You can basically rattle off whatever you'd like (at least for the mundane, no street-value drugs) and they'll sign for it. That's the next best thing to being able to bypass them completely if you're comfortable doing so.

    8. Re:This cannot and will not work by notdotcom.com · · Score: 1

      Patients on Coumadin KNOW that they are treading on thin ice. It was prescribed to them post stroke or post MI by a specialist and it's tracked very closely by the doctor's office (frequently q 30 days). Even a change in diet (since warfarin affects vitamin k-dependent clotting factors) can change PT INR times for the worse (in either direction).

      So yes, if you have had a stroke or an MI, or have some type of heart valve damage - then yes a doctor's care is important, as is ANYTHING that you put in your body, including cigarette smoke, alcohol, or even spinach (vit k). If you're taking a beta blocker for hypertension, a statin for cholesterol, antibiotics for a bacterial infection, or birth control, you can pretty much bet that you're safe unless specifically told by a doctor or pharmacist that you are in a high(er) risk category. That's common sense, not a fancy "centralized" database.

      So, yes, I have met a few thousand patients who are on "blood thinners" (platelet aggregation inhibitors).

      --
      Grandpa: My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is not a porn star.
    9. Re:This cannot and will not work by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      I actually didn't intend my comment to be support of a centralized database, so I should've cut off that portion of the line I copied. It was more to disagree with the implication that it's alright to stop worrying about severe drug interactions going to multiple doctors and a convenience store drug dispensary has somehow eliminated them as a threat.

      The post I replied to seemed to imply "automated process -> meaningful interactions disappear; severe interactions uncommon -> interaction detection by pharmacy irrelevant"

  8. Up next, education by rs1n · · Score: 1

    Soon, the government will further cut costs by removing all teachers from public education, and let citizens simply take online courses. How about we stop make cuts in places that don't need cuts, and cut out stuff like ridiculous travel expenses for congressmen?

  9. Just Wait for the Catch by SydShamino · · Score: 2

    TFA mentions the impact on Medicare for prescription drug costs, but it doesn't discuss the impact for non-seniors. My prescription drug plan doesn't cover over-the-counter medication. As of last year my flex pay plan won't let me buy over-the-counter medication with pre-tax dollars. Together, both of those mean that moving all these drugs to non-prescription will make them significantly more expensive to me and all the millions of other people who pay for them now through their insurance.

    Now, of course, you might think that insurance providers would be happy to fund these drugs even while over-the-counter, since it's far cheaper to subsidize (for example) blood pressure or cholesterol-lowering medication for life than cover one emergency trip to the hospital and bypass surgery, but I really don't think most insurance providers think that way.

    --
    It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    1. Re:Just Wait for the Catch by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Now, of course, you might think that insurance providers would be happy to fund these drugs even while over-the-counter, since it's far cheaper to subsidize (for example) blood pressure or cholesterol-lowering medication for life than cover one emergency trip to the hospital and bypass surgery, but I really don't think most insurance providers think that way.

      OTOH, its even cheaper to not cover the blood pressure medication and have you pay for it OTC and still take it and get the benefits.

      Its also cheaper for the insurance company not to cover the blood pressure medication, have you not buy it OTC, and have you die from a heart attack before you are able to get (and rack up a bill for) medical attention that they would have to pay for.

    2. Re:Just Wait for the Catch by Talderas · · Score: 1

      TFA mentions the impact on Medicare for prescription drug costs, but it doesn't discuss the impact for non-seniors. My prescription drug plan doesn't cover over-the-counter medication. As of last year my flex pay plan won't let me buy over-the-counter medication with pre-tax dollars. Together, both of those mean that moving all these drugs to non-prescription will make them significantly more expensive to me and all the millions of other people who pay for them now through their insurance.

      This is just my suspicion, but I suspect the pharma companies would be against it for this reason. Since they can fleece the insurance companies with the higher profit margins while protecting demand, the overall profit rises. Insurance companies will probably support it saying that such measures will help lower medical costs, mostly to them by allowing them to drop the drugs from their coverage.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    3. Re:Just Wait for the Catch by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      What's your copay for a doctor visit? I think for me it might be $30. Are the prescription drugs still cheaper?

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    4. Re:Just Wait for the Catch by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Its also cheaper for the insurance company not to cover the blood pressure medication, have you not buy it OTC, and have you die from a heart attack before you are able to get (and rack up a bill for) medical attention that they would have to pay for.

      Yeah. Because nobody ever has a heart attack, gets rushed by ambulance to the emergency room, gets put on oxygen and in-home hospice care, and dies a month later. Good cost/benefit analysis there.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    5. Re:Just Wait for the Catch by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      Wellness check copays are now $0. Specialists like those that may be required for some of these drugs are $30 I think, but people with insurance might only need to visit a doctor for a new prescription every two years. I suspect the OTC out-of-pocket expenses will be much higher than prescription prices - by much more than a few dollars a month.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
  10. Who came up with the idea? by Fuzzums · · Score: 1

    I'm sure some pharmaceutical organisations helped the FDA a little bit in coming up with this idea...

    --
    Privacy is terrorism.
    1. Re:Who came up with the idea? by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Unlikely. This move will lower the demand and/or price of the product leading to less profits. It's more likely support for this is coming from within the insurance realm.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
  11. They're prescriptions for a reason by slimjim8094 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Statins and albuterol are quite safe for most people, but letting the average guy decide to use them is pretty dangerous. To quote George Carlin: think of how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that.

    I think what makes a lot more sense is for long-term prescriptions - a kid with asthma is going to need an inhaler for years, and a kid allergic to bee stings or peanuts or something is going to need an Epi-Pen for the rest of his life. It makes a lot of sense to give a prescription for a year or two.

    But on the other hand, the prescription is a good "timer" - my father has high cholesterol (even on a near-no cholesterol diet) so he's on Lipitor and will be for the foreseeable future. His prescription lasts almost exactly 3 months, at which time he goes to his cardiologist for bloodwork anyway. That makes sense to me - most of these conditions require some attention, and having the prescription run out is a good way to get it.

    --
    I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    1. Re:They're prescriptions for a reason by Svartormr · · Score: 1

      ...a kid allergic to bee stings or peanuts or something is going to need an Epi-Pen for the rest of his life. It makes a lot of sense to give a prescription for a year or two.

      Not necessarily. I was highly allergic to bee stings when I was 6. I was tested by a allergist when I was 18 and found not to be allergic at that time. You have to follow up on conditions.

    2. Re:They're prescriptions for a reason by elucido · · Score: 1

      Statins and albuterol are quite safe for most people, but letting the average guy decide to use them is pretty dangerous. To quote George Carlin: think of how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that.

      I think what makes a lot more sense is for long-term prescriptions - a kid with asthma is going to need an inhaler for years, and a kid allergic to bee stings or peanuts or something is going to need an Epi-Pen for the rest of his life. It makes a lot of sense to give a prescription for a year or two.

      But on the other hand, the prescription is a good "timer" - my father has high cholesterol (even on a near-no cholesterol diet) so he's on Lipitor and will be for the foreseeable future. His prescription lasts almost exactly 3 months, at which time he goes to his cardiologist for bloodwork anyway. That makes sense to me - most of these conditions require some attention, and having the prescription run out is a good way to get it.

      He could save money by not having to go to a cardiologist. And statins aren't necessarily dangerous if it's the newer kinds. It's still a drug but the potential benefits far outweigh the risks when considering the typical western diet.

      I think patients need to take some responsibility for themselves to a certain degree. Statins are potentially dangerous like asprin is but we all can buy asprin if we really want to, and you can even get statins if you know the ingredients and really want to. The internet has changed things.

      Also consider not having to go to a cardiologist for a blood test and just getting a blood test at the Pharmacy.

    3. Re:They're prescriptions for a reason by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      Yes, of course. Especially when kids go to an allergist, they stab some protein under your skin and look for swelling, then call you peanut-allergic. Most of those kids aren't (over 50% by a lot of studies), of course. I had asthma as a kid as well, but I grew out of it. I was just simplifying things for the example.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    4. Re:They're prescriptions for a reason by sjames · · Score: 1

      That makes sense to me - most of these conditions require some attention, and having the prescription run out is a good way to get it.

      Or to make sure that the person doesn't get the attention AND stops taking the medication. Ain't no whammy like the double whammy!

    5. Re:They're prescriptions for a reason by Svartormr · · Score: 1

      I both reacted very strongly to a bee sting and to later allergic testing when I was 6. And then didn't react when I was 18--which was part of a whole series of allergic tests. Mind you, this was all several decades ago. I do think a lot is truly hype, which just makes it harder for those who are truly allergic (hard to test desensitizing treatments when the target group isn't properly characterized).

  12. Prescription through marketing by StefanJ · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Ask your Rx Kiosk Today about Effluvium DX."

    "Effluvium. For Whatever You Have."

    Patients taking Effluvium have reported Dry Mouth, Disorientation, and Spontaneous Testicular Detonation. Effluvium should not be taken before operating heavy machinery, using social media, driving or eating. Read and sign the Effluvium arbitration agreement and release from liability before taking Effluvium DX.

    1. Re:Prescription through marketing by bosef1 · · Score: 3, Funny

      In double-blind trials, differences in the rates of testicular detonation were statistically insignifcant between the male and female trial groups.

  13. Hypochondriacs UNITE! by saveferrousoxide · · Score: 2

    So I can self diagnose high cholesterol on the honor system at a kiosk, and yet, cough syrup and Pseudoephedrine have to be regulated...

  14. Re:Sounds like good news by vlm · · Score: 2

    for corporate drug pushers (aka "drug companies") and their shareholders.

    Its the other way around. Now instead of getting insurance to pay $500/month or whatever for prescription blood pressure pills, you'll have to try to get $500/month from the end user directly... good luck with that.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  15. Yet contraception remains prescription only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Oral contraceptives still remain RX only. Glad theology trumps science, no matter which party is in office.

    1. Re:Yet contraception remains prescription only? by jdgeorge · · Score: 1

      Oral contraceptives still remain RX only. Glad theology trumps science, no matter which party is in office.

      Actually, I think there's a good health safety argument for making any hormone-based medication a prescription. I don't think this is an example of the Roman Catholic Church exerting its influence over US public policy (though there certainly appear to be valid related examples in the area of women's health).

    2. Re:Yet contraception remains prescription only? by sjames · · Score: 1

      So, what sort of work up do you suppose most women get before the perfunctory renewal of their prescription?

  16. Med student perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Med student here. I know the reflex reaction might be, "Well, doctors are just trying to keep the patients to themselves." I can definitely understand this perspective.

    However, I don't think the practitioners' group's MO is to maintain doctors as the middlemen between patients and prescriptions. A patient coming in for metformin for diabetes or atorvastatin for cholesterol needs to be asked about other medications that might cross-react with this one, other potential health risks, family history, drug allergies. The doctor also speaks to the patient about his lifestyle and can intervene where a computer can't - the doctor can urge a patient to try diet and exercise before using drugs to lower cholesterol and offer specific suggestions. No drug is without side effects.

    A physician's visit can also address unrelated issues - say the patient came in for knee pain and informs the doctor that he smokes. In addition to addressing the knee pain, the doctor can also ask the patient if he'd like to quit smoking and offer resources to help him. A physician may even be the only avenue of intervention for patients who might be suffering from depression or domestic abuse; they come to the doctor for an unrelated problem, and the doctor notices some red flags and offers help and referrals. Preventive visits also go a long way in helping patients avoid a prescription or a kiosk like this entirely in the future. I don't think a kiosk can handle these considerations, and while pharmacists are experts in medications and drug interactions, a doctor's visit is also necessary.

    Of course, drugs that have demonstrated, through widespread use over a long period of time, that they are safe enough to be sold over-the-counter, well those obviously should be considered for kiosks like this. But we already have a system in place for that. I am skeptical of a push to circumvent doctor's visits in order to obtain medications that haven't yet proven to be safe for over-the-counter dispensation.

    Anyway, just wanted to offer this perspective on why a physician's visit is about much more than a prescription, and why there's more to this practitioners' group's opposition than may be evident on the surface.

  17. Health Savings accounts and Flexible Spending by Agilulf · · Score: 1

    This could also affect how you pay for your medications, as of right now, where I live in NC if you have a Health Savings account or a Flexible Spending account for your medical payments, you can no longer use them to pay for non-prescription medications, I think this is a good idea, as long as it isnt a ploy by insurance companies to get out of having to pay for the medications

    --
    It's all about the possibilities!
  18. Lisinopril by roc97007 · · Score: 2

    Lisinopril. It's one of the most common prescription medications on earth, and is so inexpensive that it's easily affordable without insurance. Yet doctors hold your refills hostage to expensive monthly office visits, which consist in their entirety of a nurse practitioner taking your weight and blood pressure, measurements anyone with high blood pressure already takes at home. This nonsense must stop.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:Lisinopril by roc97007 · · Score: 2

      some patients end up with hyperkalemia with lisinopril (this can be fatal is severe enough), if you are on lisinopril you should be having a lab draw once a year (probably a bmp or at least a K and Cr. )
      http://www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/lisinopril.html
      well just read it for yourself

      I have no problem with a lab drawing once a year. I do have a problem with paying a benjamin a month for a completely unnecessary office visit just so the doctor will push the button allowing my next refill. It's a little too similar to the business model used by crack dealers.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    2. Re:Lisinopril by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Ok, this is just one data point, but I have severe allergies, and have been on many different prescription allergy medicines since the sixties. I've observed that in each and every case, when the medicine has become available over the counter, the price has fallen from a major investment to pocket change. Moreover, I have high blood pressure, and even *with* a prescription, Lisinopril out-of-pocket is $20 for a 3 month supply without insurance I pay more than that for a week's worth of pepsi for wife and daughter. So I suspect you don't have a lot to worry about, especially if the affliction is common.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    3. Re:Lisinopril by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      I *did* find a new one, just recently, and so far the new one only wants to see me every 3 months, and she says it'll taper off.

      Since I've been taking the drug for about a decade with no side effects, I still maintain I should get a pass on these regular visits unless I'm actually ill.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  19. Misses the point by Hentes · · Score: 1

    The point of prescription drugs is to prevent unauthorised purchase. This system can be easily tricked.

    1. Re:Misses the point by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      The point of prescription drugs is to prevent unauthorised purchase. This system can be easily tricked.

      Yes and no. 'Controlled' substances are the ones that are viewed as being too habit forming or entertaining to leave people to their own devices with. A great many prescription drugs are controlled substances(CSA schedules 2-5, not to be confused with CWC schedules 2-3 or death may result); but the rest are prescription-only because their use has some some risk believed to require medical attention(most antibiotics, say, tend to be very much nonrecreational; but widespread overuse and incorrect use would be Bad, unless it were helpful in raising cheap meat, in which case it would be wildly popular and surprisingly legal...)

      I suspect that congress would be drowned in 100% genuine DEA crocodile tears before they let a scheduled substance go self-serve; but unscheduled prescription drugs are already sometimes moved to OTC status if their safety record turns out to be adequate, and it isn't hard to imagine the creation of some intermediate category for some sort of 'prescription-lite' status administered by pharmacists, nurses, and computers.

    2. Re:Misses the point by sandytaru · · Score: 1

      A fairly recent example of that was Clariton. It was prescription only when I was first put on it as a teenager, but the FDA shrugged when no one got sick and now you can buy it off the top shelf in the grocery store.

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    3. Re:Misses the point by sjames · · Score: 1

      So you're concerned that people might start taking Lipitor recreationally?

    4. Re:Misses the point by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      I think it's spot-on the point. Many of these drugs are based on prescriptions simply because that's how the system for drugs is set up by default. There are many where there is no market for "unauthorized" purchases (i.e. you can't get high on it, it won't kill you, and you can't make other drugs from it with which you can get high) where the current system does not make sense. If it works correctly (big if, as with anything the government does), there's no need to worry about it being "tricked."

  20. Win for doctors, insurance, and drug companies by EdwinFreed · · Score: 2

    But mostly a lose for patients.

    The reason it's a win for doctors is that in our "fee for service" system they don't make much on a simple office visit, especially if they have to take the time to write a prescription. There's also ongoing overhead for prescriptions - whenever you run out of refills the pharmacy has to reauth, which takes up staff time. (This last is why the office where my son works has additional staff on hand on fridays, which is the day that everyone does their refills.) It may also reduce liability, although exactly how that will play out is harder to predict.

    It's an obvious win for insurance because most OTC stuff isn't covered. And likewise for drug companies, who will sell more product, a lot of it to people who don't really need it.

    The big losers will be patients. Sure, some people will have easier access to the meds they need. But costs will overall be higher, and some of the meds they are talking about aren't all that safe. Statins, for example, may be great at treating high cholesterol, but over time they can cause liver damage. Most of the antihypertensives are reasonably safe when taken at the correct dose, but take a bit too much and things like positional vertigo can occur. And as others have pointed out, the inability to track OTC meds can result in serious drug interactions or overdoses. Indeed, this is already a serious problem with acetaminenophen - so many different products contain it that it's easy to get an overdose, and boom goes your liver.

    1. Re:Win for doctors, insurance, and drug companies by elucido · · Score: 1

      But mostly a lose for patients.

      The reason it's a win for doctors is that in our "fee for service" system they don't make much on a simple office visit, especially if they have to take the time to write a prescription. There's also ongoing overhead for prescriptions - whenever you run out of refills the pharmacy has to reauth, which takes up staff time. (This last is why the office where my son works has additional staff on hand on fridays, which is the day that everyone does their refills.) It may also reduce liability, although exactly how that will play out is harder to predict.

      It's an obvious win for insurance because most OTC stuff isn't covered. And likewise for drug companies, who will sell more product, a lot of it to people who don't really need it.

      The big losers will be patients. Sure, some people will have easier access to the meds they need. But costs will overall be higher, and some of the meds they are talking about aren't all that safe. Statins, for example, may be great at treating high cholesterol, but over time they can cause liver damage. Most of the antihypertensives are reasonably safe when taken at the correct dose, but take a bit too much and things like positional vertigo can occur. And as others have pointed out, the inability to track OTC meds can result in serious drug interactions or overdoses. Indeed, this is already a serious problem with acetaminenophen - so many different products contain it that it's easy to get an overdose, and boom goes your liver.

      The newer Statins do not cause liver damage.Also it should be the patients choice to choose between heart damage and liver damage if they are using the older statins. The patient ultimately has to make these decisions.

  21. Hmm... by Dripdry · · Score: 1

    This is going the same way that investments did. Started off where you basically needed a professional to get you a lot of things, and over time it's become easier for the individual layperson to participate.

    Basically, if you want solid advice you find a good financial professional (same for a doctor of course). However, you can TRY to do it yourself. A few succeed, but many do a sub-optimal job. Personally, I think this will increase business for doctors in the long run as people come to them having screwed up their body, or not treated things that should have been.

    OTOH... my doctor is a lazy ass, which is why I'm getting a new one. Too many professionals seem to feel entitled to their clients/patients, don't keep up with the times, and quite frankly don't do a very good job providing what they ought to. In that regard I can see how people would want to stop having to go to their doc once a month or every three months just to get a stupid medication. On top of that, it seems like every time I go to the doc he doesn't know shit about anything when it comes to medications anyway. He just says,"Well, it's your choice. Which one would you like to try?" This is the reason I suspect they're putting this legislation out there: It's just the crap shoot we've known all along. Taking medications is just a game of roulette, and it's been a way for doctors to rake in the bucks for a very long time by getting people to think that they should go to the doctor every time they get a headache or get sick. They just don't need to, but that's only if they actually know how to treat it themselves.

    I *assume* the legislation will say that a doc needs to diagnose you with a condition once, then you can get medications for that indefinitely. Otherwise I suspect we could see a boom in the snake oil industry again. Caveat emptor.

    Personally? It also sounds like a way for big pharma to cash in some more AND jettison responsibility for drugs they create. They'll put the decision square on the shoulders of the consumer instead of on doctors/theAMA.
    Shades of gray, pros/cons, etc etc etc

    --
    -
  22. Antibiotics... by tmshort · · Score: 1

    There are some things that are obvious, e.g. conjunctivitis.

    But, I fear that this may cause abuse of antibiotics by those who do not know the difference between bacteria and viruses.

    1. Re:Antibiotics... by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      There are some things that are obvious, e.g. conjunctivitis.

      Only conjunctivitis isn't that obvious, because viruses are actually the most common cause, and it could also be caused by allergies, fungal infections, or whatever else.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    2. Re:Antibiotics... by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      But, I fear that this may cause abuse of antibiotics by those who do not know the difference between bacteria and viruses.

      The MDs themselves are hardly innocent of any hand in that particular clusterfuck, though.

    3. Re:Antibiotics... by tsotha · · Score: 1

      I doubt they'll ever make antibiotics OTC because otherwise there won't be any left that will work. In general I think you ought to be able to walk into a pharmacy and buy anything you want. But I make an exception for antibiotics.

  23. Re:Sounds like good news by pr0fessor · · Score: 1

    Why am I seeing a guy eating a triple quarter pounder, large fry, and a mega jug of soda popping lipitor like it's M&Ms

  24. Re:Sounds like good news by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

    Especially when there are generics that a Iot of doctors don't even try before going for the top-shelf meds because they get the free bennies from Big Pharma.

    --
    Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
  25. FDA = unconstitutional anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You don't need prescriptions because the federal government has no legitimate authority over what you put in your own body.

    1. Re:FDA = unconstitutional anyway by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 2

      An FDA type agency is necessary to prevent snake-oil salespeople, but, yes, they shouldn't be in the business of telling people what to or not to put in their own bodies. You'd think Roe-v-Wade could be generalized to this, but no.

      If an adult wants to inject used motor oil into their veins, more power to them. But if someone tries to sell used motor oil as "Magic Tree Oil" that will cure cancer, then it time for someone to force them to offer proof.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
  26. What about prescription eyewear? by thegreatemu · · Score: 2

    I still cannot fathom why I have to have a prescription to order new eyeglasses or contact lenses. Yes, you should get your eyes checked out regularly, but a 2-year old prescription is still way better than no glasses at all!

    1. Re:What about prescription eyewear? by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      you dont.

      Got all the info? go online to zenni optical and buy your own.

      The problem is most people dont have all the tools to figure out their info to order the lenses.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  27. Surely by WillgasM · · Score: 1

    Surely they aren't really going to let people start new drugs without talking to a physician. It makes *some* sense if you're talking about continuing a prescription without constantly consulting your doctor, but even that's doubtful in most cases. I can understand inhalers for someone with asthma. That's something you don't use unless you really need it. Stuff like statins are pretty closely monitored though. You're constantly having bloodwork done to make sure your muscles aren't deteriorating. And surely we don't need to hand out antibiotics any faster than we already are. I know plenty of people that go to the doctor every time they have a scratchy throat to bitch and moan until they get azithromycin. Let's not make it any easier for those assholes to doom our species.

    1. Re:Surely by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      " I know plenty of people that go to the doctor every time they have a scratchy throat to bitch and moan until they get azithromycin."

      and the doc is not giving it to them. he is giving them a remarked placebo. Most doctors are doing this to whiny patients.

      There is a pill that looks just like it and is even labelled the same except the pharmacist bulk bottle has a PL on it and is stored by all the other placebos.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:Surely by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      I've worked in dozens of pharmacies and have never seen this. It sounds criminally dangerous. I think you are mistaken.

      I see a lot of first line antibiotics that are probably not doing anything helpful, but I have never seen anything mislabeled.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
  28. Re:What? by couchslug · · Score: 1

    "Every doctor I've ever had is extremely dismissive of any condition and very impatient to get the appointment over with. My experience with doctors has primarily been that they are roadblocks to efficient medical care. I can't count the number of times I have had to educate a doctor about my wife's Type I diabetes and insulin, or the number of times that I have received diagnoses that were completely out of line with symptoms."

    You and a considerable army of other people. My wife knows more about managing her diabetes (she fended it off for decades through diet) than the docs who treat her.

    Food for thought:
    Your car mechanic spends FAR more time fixing your car than a physician spends interacting with you.

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  29. Good. Avoid the "doctor must provide" scam. by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    Seriously. If I want an extra strong foot cream, I have to take the time off work, go the physician, pay the physician, and then pay for the foot cream. Tell me again how this isn't a racket?

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  30. How about access to others as well? by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    I do know that having antibiotics in a field emergency kit is important. IF you are 3 days from civilization and impale yourself on something you really need to start taking an antibiotic to avoid infection. This would go a log way to making it easier to build a full civilian first aid field kit than having to do it "illegally" by scavenging unused pills for the kit.

    I know that the majority of civilians are too stupid to self medicate with things like that, but anyone with advanced field first aid training would welcome the aded tools to keep people alive and in better shape for when you get them to a hospital.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:How about access to others as well? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Labeled for fish... identical to the human stuff (in fact, comes from the same plant and the same batch, in the same doses) ... google "fish-zole".

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  31. Lipitor by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    I recall one wag claiming Lipitor should be given away with every fast food meal. Sad to see it is still being held hostage by the ultimate drug dealer: Big Pharma.

    1. Re:Lipitor by rufus+t+firefly · · Score: 1

      I recall one wag claiming Lipitor should be given away with every fast food meal. Sad to see it is still being held hostage by the ultimate drug dealer: Big Pharma.

      It's available in a generic variety now, although according to the wikipedia article, the price won't be dropped to "normal generic" price until May 31st of this year.

      --
      "He may look like an idiot, and talk like an idiot, but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot." - Duck Soup
    2. Re:Lipitor by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Just ask for oregano with every such meal then. It transforms into a substance remarkably similar to aspirin in the stomach and lowers blood platelet count.

      Just do not complain about the heartburn afterwards. Hah!

  32. Could this possibly mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ...I wouldn't have to pay a $138 office visit for $10 worth of blood pressure medication?

  33. Retesting. by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

    And then you have the other side of the coin, where not enough testing is done, and retesting must be ordered. Often, this means redoing previous tests to give relevant context to the new tests. It would be cheapest to order the right amount of tests the first time.

    All this talk about unnecessary testing, while important, has some doctors a bit gun-shy. This too, is bad, and leads to more expensive care.

    (I'm not knocking your comment. You're right. You just brought up the context, and I'm playing off it.)

    --
    I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
  34. What about birth control? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2

    What about birth control? If 90% of women are using it, why can't we just get it over the counter without having to pay for a doctor's visit first?

    1. Re:What about birth control? by swalve · · Score: 1

      There are a lot of risks that can happen with BC pills. I don't think it would be responsible to let someone start on them without a Dr. consult. But after that, I don't think there would be a problem with yearly refills.

    2. Re:What about birth control? by bearded_yak · · Score: 1

      I don't think it would be responsible to let someone start on them without a Dr. consult.

      I wonder, would a pharmacy consult not accomplish the same thing? Pharmacists at the local ***Mart take more time to talk to you about your medication than most doctors I've been to.

  35. Nurse Practitioners by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

    Parent may be AC, but he's 100% right. I've heard of nurse practitioners who are better than the doctors they work with. This isn't to say that they're qualified to do everything that a doctor can, but they are qualified to take most of the workload that we give doctors. And yes, they can frequently diagnose on their own and write prescriptions (or ask for consultation when they can't).

    --
    I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    1. Re:Nurse Practitioners by swalve · · Score: 1

      They are basically physicians who didn't do any surgical work. My understanding is that they can practice in the US as long as they are "under the supervision of an MD", and that definition is pretty vague.

  36. How will it work with insurance? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

    How will this work with insurance, or is that point? Once these are available without prescription, insurance plans don't need to pay for them and the patient pays 100% of the cost?

  37. Not Good! by DaMattster · · Score: 1

    This is a very bad idea! There is a reason that doctors go through all of that training and we go to see doctors for our ailments: because it is neither a good idea nor within our abiliyt and training to diagnose ourselves. Even doctors never self-diagnose, they go to other doctors for a diagnosis. I am sure that Big Pharma would positively drool at the opportunity to be able to easily push more pills on us. I don't trust some computer kiosk to do that for me. Computers follow a black and white algorithm whereas practicing medicine is something done with "outside of the box thinking."

    1. Re:Not Good! by notdotcom.com · · Score: 1

      Yea, right. "Doctors NEVER self-diagnose". I can't tell you how many prescriptions doctors routinely call in for themselves. Plenty of them call in "Z-packs" just to have one or two on hand "just in case".

      --
      Grandpa: My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is not a porn star.
    2. Re:Not Good! by elucido · · Score: 1

      This is a very bad idea! There is a reason that doctors go through all of that training and we go to see doctors for our ailments: because it is neither a good idea nor within our abiliyt and training to diagnose ourselves. Even doctors never self-diagnose, they go to other doctors for a diagnosis. I am sure that Big Pharma would positively drool at the opportunity to be able to easily push more pills on us. I don't trust some computer kiosk to do that for me. Computers follow a black and white algorithm whereas practicing medicine is something done with "outside of the box thinking."

      Speak for yourself. Yes doctors are necessary for sophisticated conditions but for other conditions a blood test alone can diagnose them. It doesn't take years of medical school to figure out you have high blood pressure,or high cholesterol, or high blood sugar, or that you're fat. All of this stuff can be diagnosed by the patient without the need to see a doctor.

    3. Re:Not Good! by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      Counterpoint: I've got a moderately severe case of neuropathy in my legs. Now, the diagnosis required some work by a specialist. But now that it's diagnosed, the actual drug work is pretty much stock. There's a standard drug prescribed for it, and the dosage is almost completely determined by how much I need to have it be effective. The prescription process amounts to me telling the doctor what's been happening and how far I think the dose needs to be adjusted, and the doctor writing the prescription for what I've asked for. I'm nowhere near the safety limits for the drug, and after 2+ years on it I've got an excellent handle on how it's working and where the dosage needs to be. There's absolutely nothing he does with it that the pharmacist can't do just as well if not better. It'd save a lot of time, insurance cost and hassle if the pharmacist could just write and adjust the prescription himself instead of having to wait on the doctor.

      There's also things like spot painkillers. When I go in for a prescription for vicodin or the like, the doctor doesn't do anything special. There's no tests he can run, all he has to go on is my description of what I'm feeling. The only check he's doing is "Is this patient likely to be abusing the medication?", and the pharmacist can ask and answer that one as well as any MD. Probably better, the pharmacist is seeing what all 3 of my doctors are prescribing while none of them have any idea what the other two are handing out unless I tell them.

      There seems to be some delusion going around about doctors having some magical ability to see things that mere mortals don't. This... just isn't true. Often it's the reverse. While I was hospitalized, the nurses in the ward knew more about my condition and what needed doing than the attending neurologist did. He saw me for 5 minutes once a day, they saw me constantly. He had no idea what had caused my condition, and treatment consists of controlling the pain and waiting to see if it gets better or not. A nurse or a pharmacist can do this just as well as the neurologist.

    4. Re:Not Good! by swalve · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but the *why* of it is what is important. Some drugs treat one cause, some treat other causes.

    5. Re:Not Good! by swalve · · Score: 1

      Those nurses make reports that the neurologist (hopefully) reads prior to seeing you. He doesn't need to be there all the time because he can leverage the work they are doing.

    6. Re:Not Good! by elucido · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but the *why* of it is what is important. Some drugs treat one cause, some treat other causes.

      Most of the time doctors don't know why. Doctors don't know why some people have high blood pressure any better than the person does. I do agree its good to consult with a doctor but a lot of the time the doctor are even more clueless as to why than the patient.

  38. Yeah... I'm like, sick 'n stuff by Phusion · · Score: 1

    So, medical kiosk, I'm sleepy and my back hurts and I have trouble staying asleep, please give me some rittalin, some morphine and some xanax.

    --
    640k ought to be enough for anyone.
    1. Re:Yeah... I'm like, sick 'n stuff by elucido · · Score: 1

      So, medical kiosk, I'm sleepy and my back hurts and I have trouble staying asleep, please give me some rittalin, some morphine and some xanax.

      With the exception of Morphine why not? Morphine is addictive but ritalin if it's safe enough to give to children should be over the counter and especially xanax. If xanax were OTC I'd stockpile some.

    2. Re:Yeah... I'm like, sick 'n stuff by swalve · · Score: 1

      "Safe enough" to use properly is a world apart from "safe enough" to just let people get them on demand. Also, xanax is HIGHLY addictive.

    3. Re:Yeah... I'm like, sick 'n stuff by elucido · · Score: 1

      "Safe enough" to use properly is a world apart from "safe enough" to just let people get them on demand. Also, xanax is HIGHLY addictive.

      Food is highly addictive too. Not everyone has an addiction problem so that's not a good enough reason to ban me from being able to solve my sleep problem.

      But since you wont let me get Xanax over the counter will you let me use cannabis instead?

    4. Re:Yeah... I'm like, sick 'n stuff by swalve · · Score: 1

      Sure, why not?

    5. Re:Yeah... I'm like, sick 'n stuff by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Borderline hypothyroid will also cause those symptoms. Especially the being sleepy yet sleeping poorly, and random pain especially in the back muscles, hands, and feet.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  39. Interesting. by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 2

    Not that I'm against this necessarily, but it is interesting to note that these drugs which are currently prescription-only and which do have side-effects might be available over the counter, along with aceteminophen (Tylenol) which causes approx 400 deaths in the US per year, which can be purchased by children... ...but the feds just closed the medical cannabis dispensary nearest me despite it having won awards from the city and being backed by the Chamber of Commerce, having tight security, etc... because although it's over 600 feet from a school (state law) at 960 feet it's less than 1000 feet from a school for the blind by 40 feet... so it had to be shut or the landlord would face criminal charges and asset seizure.

    There's a Walgreens on the corner. Sells tylenol, etc. Also a whole isle of candy bars for the kids.

    Interesting.

    --
    This space available.
    1. Re:Interesting. by swalve · · Score: 1

      The Tylenol thing is a relatively recent discovery. What's worse is that they mix tylenol in with other painkillers, so people who abuse things like Vicodin and Norco are getting their livers killed too.

    2. Re:Interesting. by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 1

      Exactly. It'll ILLEGAL to sell codeine in the US without acetaminophen in it. Not because it makes it work better - if that were the case there would simply be a choice.

      No, it's illegal to make codeine without acetaminophen because they want a toxin in there to prevent recreational use of codeine. You can't use it to get super high because now it will kill you.

      --
      This space available.
  40. Self monitoring is the present solution by elucido · · Score: 1

    As someone who had high blood pressure and triglycerides and was put on medications for both, I will tell you that the kind of monitoring the doctor did was minimal and could easily be replaced.

    My "monitoring" was a couple of lipid panels run by the lab in his office, which could easily be outsourced to any place with lab techs who can draw blood. The rest of the monitoring was me taking my own damn blood pressure and charting the results in Excel.

    The doctor's value was near zero as far as I can tell, and less than zero if you add in the work I did changing my diet and losing a bunch of weight (all of which I did in spite of his advice), which lowered my blood pressure and totally altered my lipid profile.

    IMHO, what's needed is a new, "basic doctor" type degree that has the power to prescribe most meds and monitor most medical conditions but doesn't 8-10 years of education and training costing the GDP of a small country.

    We have a doctor "shortage" because it costs $250k to become a doctor, the people who actually get the degree specialize where the easy money is (high level of non-insurance reimbursed business which is paid in cash, up front, no on call hours, etc, like dermatology) and nobody wants to practice in high-voume, low-margin areas like being a GP.

    As patients we should be able to monitor ourselves, we should be able to do research into our conditions ourselves. We need doctors for sophisticated treatments, expensive diagnostic exams, and specific information about our conditions. We don't need doctors appointments for asthma if we know what medication we are on and have had a prescription in the past. We don't need mandatory appointments for GERD if acid reflux medication is OTC and we can afford it. We don't need doctors appointments for blood glucose monitoring, cholesterol monitoring, and other blood tests as these should be something we can do from the Pharmacy.

    Basically we shouldn't need a doctor's permission to do a blood test or any test we are willing to pay for and we shouldn't require a doctor for a diagnosis. This would lower costs and reward people who would prefer to take matters into their own hands. Cholesterol, glucose, iron, blood pressure, and virtually all diagnostic tests could be performed in any lab and should not require a permission slip from any doctor. The majority of people in this country are going to be affected by the same illnesses, will need statins, will need to wear glasses, will need drugs for stomach acid, constipation, allergy, I think this is a positive step by the FDA.

    The next step would be to develop the technology to allow for better self monitoring, or perhaps real time monitoring, and better remote diagnosis.

    1. Re:Self monitoring is the present solution by jmottram08 · · Score: 1

      you do know that you can get almost any blood test online without a doctors orders.... right?

    2. Re:Self monitoring is the present solution by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      You listed a bunch of symptoms that people can certainly diagnose with access to the right tests.

      What most people can't do is understand and diagnose the underlying conditions that maycause these symptoms.

    3. Re:Self monitoring is the present solution by elucido · · Score: 1

      You listed a bunch of symptoms that people can certainly diagnose with access to the right tests.

      What most people can't do is understand and diagnose the underlying conditions that maycause these symptoms.

      Most doctors don't understand the causes. There is a process of testing and then narrowing it down but doctors get it wrong all the time. Patients should do more to learn about their own condition.

  41. Let people test themselves. by elucido · · Score: 1

    Thanks for raising all our insurance rates. Nothing like unnecessary testing.

    If Insurance rates are too high then let people test themselves with their own money. A blood test only costs 60 bucks and a comprehensive test is maybe 200 bucks max. You should be able to walk into CVS or Walgreens and buy a blood test on the spot and have your blood analyzed at a lab. You shouldn't have to ask your doctor for a blood test.

    1. Re:Let people test themselves. by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Uh, $60 is just the sticker price for those basic blood tests. Most insurance companies pay about $15, including the blood draw and all. Only suckers pay $60 - ie those without insurance. Actually, if you don't have insurance you can beg and plead with them and they'll knock the price down to $40 and you'll talk to your friends about how you get such a better deal without insurance.

      Trust me, the insurance companies don't have a monopoly on greed in the healthcare industry. The pricing system is completely out of control.

      The real fun thing is that now whenever I go to have blood taken they lady behind the counter says "you have an estimated patient responsibility of $120 - how would you like to pay that? We take cash, checks, and credit cards." I tell them to bill me, and they say, "no problem." They sure don't offer that up-front though. When the bill comes in typically the insurance pays about $15 and tells me I owe the lab $2 or so. Of course, if I had paid the $120 up-front I'm sure it wouldn't be any hassle at all to get that money back, right...?

    2. Re:Let people test themselves. by elucido · · Score: 1

      Uh, $60 is just the sticker price for those basic blood tests. Most insurance companies pay about $15, including the blood draw and all. Only suckers pay $60 - ie those without insurance. Actually, if you don't have insurance you can beg and plead with them and they'll knock the price down to $40 and you'll talk to your friends about how you get such a better deal without insurance.

      Trust me, the insurance companies don't have a monopoly on greed in the healthcare industry. The pricing system is completely out of control.

      The real fun thing is that now whenever I go to have blood taken they lady behind the counter says "you have an estimated patient responsibility of $120 - how would you like to pay that? We take cash, checks, and credit cards." I tell them to bill me, and they say, "no problem." They sure don't offer that up-front though. When the bill comes in typically the insurance pays about $15 and tells me I owe the lab $2 or so. Of course, if I had paid the $120 up-front I'm sure it wouldn't be any hassle at all to get that money back, right...?

      Are blood tests even covered by insurance? I doubt it. Also not every doctor is going to agree with you that you need to be tested so you'll ultimately have to pay out of pocket for some tests.

    3. Re:Let people test themselves. by sjames · · Score: 1

      No need to send away to the lab, most of the tests only take seconds to actually perform. The fantastically expensive machine that tracks the sample with barcodes to make sure the right person gets the right report isn't really necessary when the patient is right there.

      Of course, if that caught on, the fantastically expensive machines would magically become moderately expensive machines.

    4. Re:Let people test themselves. by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Are blood tests even covered by insurance? I doubt it. Also not every doctor is going to agree with you that you need to be tested so you'll ultimately have to pay out of pocket for some tests.

      Every insurance plan I've ever had will pay for them, but of course individual plans almost certainly vary. The figures I posted are generally reflective of my own experience, and no doubt the experience of others will vary, based on how much their employer spent on their plan.

      Most insurance policies dictate when they will pay for various tests, though the doctor is typically the gatekeeper. The guidelines are usually based on the recommendations of the medical profession, and the guidelines set by Medicare in the US.

  42. Let patients test themselves. by elucido · · Score: 1

    Testing is something the patient should be able to pay out of pocket for. If the patient wants a test for anything and is willing to pay for it then the test should take place.

    1. Re:Let patients test themselves. by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      In some places, patients can. I haven't been able to nail it down, but some law changed somewhere, and labs are no longer willing to permit walk in patients. Maybe this is just a California thing. Don't know. (Our laws are notoriously messed up.)

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    2. Re:Let patients test themselves. by elucido · · Score: 2

      In some places, patients can. I haven't been able to nail it down, but some law changed somewhere, and labs are no longer willing to permit walk in patients. Maybe this is just a California thing. Don't know. (Our laws are notoriously messed up.)

      You should be able to walk into a lab and receive a test, any test, just as long as you pay for it. To deny patients this ability is to deliberately increase both risk and cost.

    3. Re:Let patients test themselves. by buybuydandavis · · Score: 2

      You should be able to walk into a lab and receive a test, any test, just as long as you pay for it. To deny patients this ability is to deliberately increase both risk and cost.

      What should be and what is are very different things. I was getting a blood test in a lab, and realized I didn't know my blood type. So I walked up to the counter, plunked down my credit card, and said I wanted my blood type tested. Sorry, no can do, you need a prescription.

      I think it's obscene to have to ask permission from duly deputized government agents to get a blood test. But that's the way it is. I've seen all sorts of comments, but none addressing the fundamental question - why do I have to ask permission from the government to get a blood test or take medicine? Why do I have to pay a 1000% markup on my medicine through regulatory rent seeking?

      There's all sorts of squawk about "drug legalization", but always for drugs that get me high. How about they keep the pot, and legalize simvastatin and metformin?

      And whaddya know, the FDA is actually talking about giving up some control and maybe leaving me free to make these choices for myself. A teeny tiny step in the right direction. I should look out the window to check for a flock of donkeys flying by.

      If only the general principle would catch on. There are endless things that are bad for us that are legal - how about we legalize the things that might be good for us?

    4. Re:Let patients test themselves. by general_re · · Score: 1

      You should be able to walk into a lab and receive a test, any test, just as long as you pay for it. To deny patients this ability is to deliberately increase both risk and cost.

      What should be and what is are very different things. I was getting a blood test in a lab, and realized I didn't know my blood type. So I walked up to the counter, plunked down my credit card, and said I wanted my blood type tested. Sorry, no can do, you need a prescription.

      Go donate blood at your local Red Cross. It's free, you're doing a good deed, and you'll get a cool donor card that has your blood type printed right on it :)

      BTW, I agree with everything else you said.

      --
      ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.
    5. Re:Let patients test themselves. by JDevers · · Score: 1

      I agree with the metformin...especially once the nausea stage passes. Statins though carry some decent risks and should be monitored by a physician, no way around it.

    6. Re:Let patients test themselves. by buybuydandavis · · Score: 1

      Why do people think that because a doctor writes a prescription, that anything is in fact getting monitored?

      I can smoke cigarettes, drink booze, and gorge myself on deep fried lard until I croak, but thank God the gummint is there to make taking simvastatin to improve my health 10 times as expensive as it needs to be to protect against a miniscule chance of myopathy which I know I have very little risk for, because I've had my dna sequenced and don't carry the risk alleles.

      Ah, but of course the government is busy trying to prevent me from spitting in a tube and getting my dna sequenced, just as it currently prevents me from getting my own blood tests to monitor myself.

      Already got a prescription for simvastatin. Doc ordered no baseline blood tests. But he charged the insurance company $200, courtesy of RentSeekingIsUs, also known as the Federal Government.

    7. Re:Let patients test themselves. by himself · · Score: 1

      Don't know your blood type? If you're reasonably healthy then go donate blood, and it will be automatically serotyped -- along with tests for a ton of other things. Also, free juice & cookies (and Guinness, at least when I donated in London twenty years ago!).

  43. Unfortunately by J'raxis · · Score: 1

    Bigots like him do run an awful lot of places.

  44. E-monitoring should connect to the Internet by elucido · · Score: 1

    Doctors are busy enough they don't need to do things just "to make more money." We have a shortage of doctors in the USA, ever try to get an appointment with a specialist who doesn't have a several week wait?

    Fact is these are serious chronic conditions that need some monitoring by doctors. This is backed up by the evidence. So please stop with the "docs are greedy" bull shit.

    Why can't a computer or electronic devices do the monitoring? I would think a computer could monitor glucose levels, blood pressure, heart rate, oxygen levels, weight, body fat percentage, temp, and a bunch of other stuff in real time.This could be continuously updated and uploaded to the internet and then forwarded to the doctor upon complications.

    1. Re:E-monitoring should connect to the Internet by zlives · · Score: 1

      yes and all this data will be available to your insurance company...

      Dear Elucido,
      We are sorry to inform you that as of Tuesday May 08, @02:21PM your insurance has been canceled.
      have a nice day

    2. Re:E-monitoring should connect to the Internet by elucido · · Score: 1

      yes and all this data will be available to your insurance company...

      Dear Elucido,
      We are sorry to inform you that as of Tuesday May 08, @02:21PM your insurance has been canceled.
      have a nice day

      That would be illegal. They cannot cancel you based on pre-existing conditions.

    3. Re:E-monitoring should connect to the Internet by zlives · · Score: 1

      hmmm but the cancellation was a business decision nothing to do with your health :)

  45. Re:DNP by zlives · · Score: 1

    i am willing to provide a basic witch doctor degree for slave labor (100+hours a week) for low low one year of service.

  46. Re:Sounds like good news by arose · · Score: 1

    Because confirmation bias.

    --
    Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
  47. Looks as if Personalabs does this. by whovian · · Score: 1

    http://www.personalabs.com/howitworks.php

    I just googled for "order my own lipid panel"

    --
    To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
    1. Re:Looks as if Personalabs does this. by elucido · · Score: 1

      http://www.personalabs.com/howitworks.php

      I just googled for "order my own lipid panel"

      Here are the prices

      NMR(c) Lipoprofile - $120.00
      The NMR(c) LipoProfile Test utilizes the latest testing technology, NMR (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance), for a thorough analysis of your cardiovascular risk. This test frequently reveals the presence of hidden but manageable lipid-related risk, which when treated diminishes the occurrence of cardiovascular events. Fast for 12-14 hours prior to testing.

      Lipoprotein-associated Phospholipase A2 (PLAC) - $190.00
      The PLAC© test is a proprietary test used to selectively screen for risk factors for coronary artery disease and cerebral vascular disease associated with atherosclerosis.
      l
      Apolipoprotein B - $72.00
      This test measures Apolipoprotein B. LDL and its major protein, Apolipoprotein B, play an essential role in lipid transport and metabolism. Apo B may regulate cholesterol synthesis through its interaction with specific cell membrane receptors and by inhibition of HMG Co A reductase. This enzyme has been identified as the rate controlling enzyme in cholesterol biosynthesis. Apo B may be important in the genesis of atherosclerosis and its quantitation useful in the evaluation of patients at risk for or having coronary atherosclerosis (CAD). High levels indicate increased risk for CAD.

      This is how it should be done but then where would the patient go to get the blood drawn? We should be able to go to a Pharmacy to get blood drawn and then have the blood forwarded to the lab for testing.

  48. for some stuff online is better and works better by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    for some stuff online is better and works better for some people as well.

  49. Re:all drugs are not created equal by lpq · · Score: 1

    Huh? I don't get what you are saying? What do you think will happen?

    The downside I see -- some of these can be very expensive, and if available without prescription won't be covered by insurance.

    This isn't necessarily going to make things cheaper for patients.

  50. Good by lightknight · · Score: 1

    Good. That should cut down on the workload of the doctors somewhat, enabling the patients, who really need the doctor's attention, to have it.

    Now if we can just swing the pharmacy back to the rules / regulations prior to 1930, I can get my migraine meds (although the article lists migraines as something they are considering for the prescription-less environment, my meds are unlikely to be in the category that is easily made prescription free) without having to bother the doctor every month.

    --
    I am John Hurt.
  51. Get ready for an increase in unnecessary deaths by bearded_yak · · Score: 1

    Great, another lovely excuse for my insurance company to not pay for something.

    While we shouldn't have to be protected from our own stupidity and while doctor-issued prescriptions, maybe, should not be required for a huge number of drugs that are less dangerous than some OTC's, if we take that leap and don't have to have doctor-issued prescriptions for common items, the insurance companies have such an easy out to make more profit. Premiums wouldn't come down, after all, who would force them to? Insurance isn't traditional supply-and-demand, it is protection-money collected by fear. Fear is the never-ending demand that guarantees the insurers always have a customer-base.

    If you're a low to low-middle income earner who relies upon your insurance (to whom you pay ridiculous premiums) to keep your maintenance drugs like your heart medication coming in, the thought of it becoming available without a doctor's prescription is bound to be frightening. That leaves even more people in a position of deciding between their medicine and other life necessities.

    I'd bet a sharp rise in heart-related illness and death would be seen as a result of EVEN MORE people (than already) deciding they can't afford their medication.

    If our insurance industry and our pharmaceutical industry weren't so mafia-movie-like ('Oh, you can afford to pay me $200 a month for protection? Well, then, I'm sure you can afford to pay me $225 next month'), this wouldn't be an issue.

    Why not instead fix what's already in place? Stop the current vicious cycle with some carefully-planned, responsible, common-sense legislation.

    Should a hospital be able to charge $23 for a $1.50 eyeglass repair kit that a patient (who does not wear glasses) didn't get and the doctor didn't request? No. Should a doctor be able to charge $350 for a routine office visit in which no tests are run, the patient talked to the nurse 5 minutes and the doctor 3 minutes, and didn't even require a prescription or further referral? No. Should the exact same acetaminophen/paracetamol you can buy over the counter cost $1.50 per pill just because you're in the hospital? No.

    Should the insurance company limit the doctor to charging them $65 for that visit I mentioned earlier? No. Should the insurance company have it in their contract that the doctor must eat the cost of any injectables and charge $0? No. Should the insurance company be able to say that they know more about what medication or treatment the patient needs than that doctor who has at least physically seen the patient for 3 minutes more than the insurer who has never seen or touched them? No.

    Oh, wait, we can't have 'carefully-planned', responsible, common-sense legislation. That doesn't exist. So, we are where we are.

    And if anyone claims that the kiosk move would bring insurance premiums down and thus balance out for the common citizen, you're truly naive and I hope for your sake you stay clear of carnival game barkers and nigerian princes.

  52. Lactulose by tyrus568 · · Score: 1

    I've had chronic constipation for years now, although it's been especially bad in the last sixth months - like not going for a couple of weeks at a time, not going when using stimulant laxatives, and requiring frequent enemas to stay unplugged. I take docusate sodium, a stool softener, every day. I eat fiber, exercise, drink lots of water (30+ oz a day), drink prune juice on a daily basis, and take magnesium supplements. I've also tried regular mineral oil (before sleep) and it didn't help, either. I've also tried minimizing my amitriptyline dose and that hasn't helped as I need some minimum amount of it to go to sleep at night.

    The main culprit is amitriptyline, which I am prescribed to control my sleeping patterns and as an anti-depressant (along with Bupropion). It has anticholinergic activity.

    I went to see a doctor last week about it. I explained all of my issues and what I've tried so far. I suggested lactulose, because a friend of mine's father is also on amitriptyline and has the same constipation issues, and that's what he was prescribed. I went and looked it up at the time (I know, shouldn't be an armchair physician) and was surprised to read about how effective it was, how it's not a stimulant laxative so there's no concern about laxative dependency. It's a sugar alcohol and apparently extremely effective.

    Wikipedia says of Lactulose, "Lactulose is sold over the counter (without prescription) in most countries in the world. In the United States and Austria, it requires a prescription over unfounded fears that it could be dangerous to diabetics. However, it is an indigestible sugar and has been proved to be safe even for them."

    So when I talked to the doctor (a GP that I had never met before; I have no family doctor), she refused to prescribe it to me, saying that it can lead to vitamin deficiency and she didn't want to put someone on Lactulose without them being in a serious medical condition. She told me to just keep taking stimulant laxatives whenever I need them and didn't seem to be aware that laxative dependency even exists at all. I had to walk out afterwards with nothing, looking at the long weeks and months ahead where I'm going to be very uncomfortable on a regular basis and it's a considerable source of anxiety for me.

    If they would sell Lactulose OTC I would be very grateful. I'm not looking forward to having to continue to deal with this problem, but I have no choice.

  53. STOP THIEF! by glorybe · · Score: 1

    The minute that a drug becomes non prescription most insurance policies will not cover it at all. This would be a disaster. For many seniors it would be tens of thousands out of pocket every year. It would also cause a lot of deaths and it also would increase the costs because law suits of pharmacies would raise prices for everyone. doctors would take a big hit as many office visits would be lost and that means that those that must see a doctor will be paying through the nose to make up for loss of visits from others. All in all this seems like a really bad idea.

  54. Or better yet by shiftless · · Score: 1

    how about we legalize the things that might be good for us?

    How about we just legalize it all and quit trying to run people's lives at gunpoint?

    1. Re:Or better yet by buybuydandavis · · Score: 1

      Works for me.

  55. Still doesn't solve the problem by shiftless · · Score: 1

    Some states NPs can serve in a way the OP wants: diagnose, write prescriptions, have their own practice, etc. But some states are a bit behind: they have to work under a doctor, can't write prescriptions, etc.

    ...And all of them, no matter what state, have to deal with the same cluster fuck of a legal/government/medical system, which similarly drags down the rest of the economy. These leeches take our tax dollars and spend it on their lavish accommodations, then have the fucking BALLS to act like times are just as tough in D.C. and they need more money?

    The level of bureaucracy in this country has just gotten way, way too goddamn large and out of control. We need to abolish EVERYTHING and start over from scratch. Evacuate DC, then drop nukes from orbit just to be sure.

  56. Jesse James Insurance by AlleyTrotte · · Score: 1

    This is just another end run for O'Bama care. IE an way for insurance company to no longer pay for medically necessary prescription drugs. Just as always the working stiff gets stiffed again.

  57. Re:Please, please, let me buy Amoxicillin OTS!!! by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

    I really hope they do this for Amoxicillin. I hate having to waste $20 on a Doctor's visit when I know damn well that i've got an ear infection from a cold, and all the doctor is going to do is prescribe Amoxicillin anyways. Thankfully, my Mom usually has some around since she gets it prescribed regularly for ongoing issues. Ear infections to me like migraine headaches are to women.

    OTS = Off The Shelf

    You are an idiot. Amoxicillin is exactly as effective as placebo for ear infection. If your mom keeps a partial prescription around she isn't taking a full course of antibiotics and is an idiot, too.

    --
    Man, you really need that seminar!
  58. Hey, the pharmaceutical industry likes it - by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

    So it must be good for America.
    What could possibly go wrong ?
    At some point the public is going to become aware that the FDA, the drug companies, and their doctors, are NOT their friends.