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Ask Slashdot: Find a Job In China For Non-native Speaker?
An anonymous reader writes "My fiancée has recently been accepted into a Chinese university into their Ph.D. program, and I've been looking at jobs in China (specifically the Beijing area) and not having any success. I'm a developer with 8 years of experience (java), mostly on the server side, so I'm not lacking in the general experience, but the problem is I don't speak Mandarin or Cantonese. I am a native English speaker from Canada though. The only jobs I've had any responses from were teaching positions for simple English which isn't exactly my first choice. Has anyone had any experience or success as a programmer finding a job in China, without being able to speak the native language? Any websites I should be focusing on?"
That's what people who can't speak the language do in the US.
Have you considered working as a coder-for-hire at either an established firm, or on a do it yourself basis from one of the many websites available (Google can show you the way)? The pay might even be better, unless you were particularly interested in exploiting your language talents in the local labor market (which it sounds like you may not be).
Any websites I should be focusing on?"
This one.
Maybe instead of trying to find a coding job, find a job along the lines of "conversational english for IT type people"...
Help your fellow coders bring up their communication skills...
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
Find something with a US or other predominantly English-speaking company that allows 100% telecommute work. Most development jobs can be done remotely, but it's up to the company whether or not they are comfortable with that.
Had a friend that was in Shanghai for about a year. Worked for Rockwell. So a US/Canana/UK based company that has a Beijing office might be your best shot.
You don't want to go to Beijng. Trust me. I've been there for 3 months until I developed asthma. The air pollution is INCREDIBLY bad, you can't even remotely compare it to the worst cities in the US. That being said, there are a lot of 'western' companies where English is used for every communication. I know, because I worked at three. I strongly suggest that if you go there, look out for those western companies. They pay better and have a much nicer working atmosphere than the local companies. But seriously, If you care about your health at all, or eating manners of your peers, or respect for (animal) life in general, stay in Canada. It's such a wonderful country.
This summer -
Too long have the Chinese taken our good, American jobs. The time has come for Anonymous Coward to go to China...
AND TAKE.
THEM.
BACK.
(Coming to theaters Summer 2012.)
I think your prospects of finding a local job are dim. You are no more likely to be hired there as a programmer there than a non-english-speaking coder would be in the US. It looks like you are an IT programmer, and quality IT programming is all about understanding business requirements well. You can't even read the business requirements, much less understand them. And no company is going to pay somebody to translate for you when they can just hire a local coder instead.
Concentrate your efforts on an English-speaking coding job that will let you work remotely. You may end up on a lot of middle-of-the-night conference calls, but you'll be better off than being an "English Teacher."
In Canada, how many developer positions are filled by people unable to speak English or French? Perhaps it is unrealistic to expect to find a development position in any country where you can't speak the predominate language. OK, there may be cases where this works in Europe or India where English is often used to communicate between people of different regions. However English is not used in this manner in China.
Perhaps a more realistic plan would be to find a company that does outsourcing or otherwise deals with clients in the US. They may need someone to be a technical contact of some sort.
The guy is not a "non-native speaker". He's a non-speaker. "Non-native speaker" means that he speaks the language, but not natively. The question is from someone who does not speak the language.
Learn the language.
It shouldn't take an intelligent person more than 3 months or so to get fluent.
Hey, I spent some time in Nanjing last year trying to find a good job. Because I speak Mandarin fluently, I thought it wouldn't be a problem. I didn't want to teach because I still wanted to improve my Mandarin by speaking with colleagues. But the only jobs that were easy to find as a foreigner (even non native) were the English teaching jobs. And most of them are better paid than IT positions in Chinese companies! That's why Chinese people will assume that as a foreigner, you don't even want some other kind of job. That and the fact that English teaching is a big big industry there and they need every foreigner they can get. I finally only spent the time there improving my Chinese. If I ever wanted to find a job there again my new plan would be to find a multinational corporation to work in and then get myself sent to China to work there. That way, the salary is way better and you can still work in IT. Cheers, Murmel
Screw the programming job, I suggest you hire yourself out as a technical manual writer or proofreader. I don't care how much they pay you, you should consider it a service to your native land.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
The only jobs I've had any responses from were teaching positions for simple English which isn't exactly my first choice.
Wrong bzzzzzt. Thats like a CIA trained chef looking for work and applying at McDonalds (which only hires illegals and non-english speakers, so maybe its a closer analogy than you'd think?). A /. analogy would be hiring a CCIE to pull cable.
The way to roll in dough is to download a large chunk of github, write a very short shell script that parses out comments, and develop a curriculum that trains the natives to understand our crappy comments, and possibly how to write non-crappy english language code.
I always laugh when I "view source" on a web page and see its full of hindi comments, or even worse a pitiful attempt at english language comments.
Position yourself where the natives already had "how to ask where is the bathroom in English" classes and they already know java like you claim to know. Now your carefully designed one day / three day / one week seminar will be hired at the local equivalent of $1000/day to teach Chinese java coders how to read english comments and write english comments. Also touch on the comprehension and creation of vaguely english variable and class/object/file names.
You may only get hired a couple times to teach at a couple shops, but you'll make a couple hundred contacts who hopefully will think you know what you're doing, which leads to coding contracts, coding jobs, etc. Also frankly it looks cool on the resume when/if you come home, cooler than yet another "implemented a shopping cart online" blah blah that everyone locally has done a zillion times.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
You know how people love to complain that if you expect to come live and work in America, you should have to learn to speak English? Same argument applies.
maybe you can try the hundreds of different expat forums?
Look, I know you said that you don't want to teach English. But the value, to other people, of your native English ability is really high. Why don't you just give it a try? You can always try to split 50/50 between teaching English and learning Mandarin. After a year or so, when you're functional in Mandarin, look for a job in programming again.
Be wary about the company you work for, though. I've some friends (and heard a lot of stories) about people who go to China promised certain pay and certain benefits, only to find the company offering them something very different once they're there. Shouldn't be as big a deal if you're already there, and if you have connections (through your fiancee's university) to people who can help you navigate the system in an emergency. But just keep an eye open and listen to your instincts: if something seems a bit fishy or too good to be true, go somewhere else.
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
I spent almost a year traveling China and working as a software developer / Business guy. Looking for jobs in china is extremely different in China then it is in the US. Here is the US you can call head hunters or work the job boards... China is all about who you know. I would say that your best bet is to go over with your fiancée and immediately start networking with the professors. Ask them out for dinner (this is normal) and start talking to them about what are come good companies in town. Make sure to pay for dinner and always have a small fun gift for second and third meetups.
After meeting a couple good business people around town I had almost an endless supply of work where people wanted me to come and do contracting for a couple months. During the day I would code or do project management and then at night I would drink and do dinner with my bosses. (NOTE: Never turn down dinner or drinks with fellow workers or bosses... Socializing is a HUGE part of business over there)
You can proofread documentation. so you don get the following.
Insert batteries in the proper way, happy fun is achieved! Do not go!
Or pretty much everything you see on this site full of examples.... http://www.engrish.com/
OR you can do tech support, China companies would KILL for a native english speaker to sit in the call center and answer angry phone calls.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Like the subject says, one of my friend found a job in japan (not China I know) as a lawyer. He doesn't speak japanese and they didn't had any requirements for japanese speakers too. All I can say is search for the right business and your going to find one. Any good dev business that wants to make money must have english translator so you might hire a programmer as well. Makes sense to me. good luck on your search.
[EOM]
Unless your going to work in Canton (Guangzhou) and even then it's not the national language. It is a pretty nifty language though. Very flowery with lots of bizarre colloquialisms. But then again maybe I'm offering toilet paper to one urinating.
Sig. Sig. Sputnik
So, to turn this around, if someone came into your place of work looking for a job, didn't speak English, and wasn't yet in the country ... would you be seriously considering this candidate?
At a certain point, if you don't speak the language, what are you offering them?
That's not to say you don't have stuff to offer, and if they have some English speakers you might not be someone who might be a good fit. But from a certain perspective, not having any language skills can be a huge liability in looking for work there.
That, and you might need to find out the legal stuff you might need to account for to work in China. The equivalent of a work visa. The teaching of English might be your only option for a while.
If you haven't already, I'd be trying to understand your legal position and what you'll be able to do when you're there as a visitor. You could find yourself unable to work, limited in what you can do (both legally and linguistically) and sitting around wishing you hadn't gone there in the first place.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
What would you think if someone showed up at your workplace in the US, unable to speak a word of English, looking for a programming job?
As a native English speaker, you can make decent money teaching English. Or, you can try to find a remote job. But, I think your chances of finding a local development job are slim.
I don't think you will have ANY luck with a website here. They are all garbage. Your best luck is just *going* there, going out, networking, bars, friends, and finding some good local recruiters. It's not like MS is advertising on 51job or chinajobs. As usual, your best luck is relationships, and those are nigh-impossible to make without being there.
I have a recruiter friend here in shanghai (who does a different industry) and he set me up a few friends. Nothing worked out (not much work in shanghai for me). I found the one that I have from someone I met a hostel who did an internship there. Got another at the hostel in shanghai, for a company in hangzhou. Another I possibility came from someone in the local pool league, but that was in a different country. A lot of chinese live at hostels when they are starting/looking for jobs, and two of my friends were fresh grad law masters looking for jobs in the ¥4K range. All in all it took 3 months. You will probably have much better luck in beijing, where most of the tech work is.
So, go there, give it three months, see what happens -
- go out, business functions, pool leagues, IT areas
- find some local recruiters (won't be hard), just start asking around
- look for chinese companies that also operate in the west/australia with international products
- stay at a non-tourist-kid-centric hostel, but still busy
One of my best opportunities (that I didn't take, i got the job first) was to teach english to a bunch of recuriters a few hours a day, a few days a week. In that case they said they would hook me up with jobs, and pay a little for the classes. Recruiters get a large fee for finding someone, if that person stays on for more than a few months. Usually in the range of 2 months salary, I think, so the incentive is still very much there to find you a job.
Be aware that they can find java programmers in china quite easily here, even if they are terrible at the job. Chinese managment sees the $ first, and not the quality, so I don't have anyone good working for me in this office. That sometimes changes when they start to fail, but in a lot of places pay for a mid-level java dev is around ¥7-8000 (and their mid is our junior). You are better off aiming for management in the application/resume etc. You will end up doing coding anyway, but at least have some power to fix the crap you see.
Just tell your fiancé not to do it. I am telling you this from experience. My wife and I held getting married because she wanted to finish her studies she went through the whole thing till she got the PHD and I followed her around just like you are planning to do which also changed my plans. Education expenses were none since she made a nice income while doing research for the PhD.
The problem was after she finished. My wife became hormonal and wanted to have kids, and pop up 2. Now all she wants to be is a mom a stay at home mom. And I am not the only one with the same situation. I got about a dozen friends with wifes with expensive education just going to waste because they want to be a house wife.
Also you do not want to live in Beijing the air quality there is horrible.
... Thats like a CIA trained chef looking for work and applying at McDonalds ...
Perhaps that acronym should be defined, something like "Culinary Institute of America" would be my first guess given the context. A "Central Intelligence Agency" trained chef would naturally have extremely limited career paths. ;-)
I have lived and worked in China. As an English language speaker, it is not too difficult to find work in China since many companies use English as their official working language. But if you expect to find a job as a programmer making anything close to a western salary, you can forget it.
Instead, you should consider moving to management. Plenty of companies doing outsourcing want someone on the ground in China who understands western business culture.
You might also consider doing something completely different, like teaching English.
Also, try to learn some Mandarin. You certainly need to know how to say please, thank you, excuse me, etc. You should also learn to say "this", "that", "How much does it cost?", and "Please give me ....". If you learn a few hundred hanzi, that will be a big help in reading street signs, menus, and restroom gender indicators.
Rather than looking for work there, try to find US companies that offshore work to China. Failing that, try applying with a firm that works with US companies, though don't expect to be paid much above what they pay their locals.
My employer has an offshore team in Beijing. Most of the developers there speak pigeon English and would welcome a native speaker to help improve and we'd welcome someone to help bridge the language gap that can be quite difficult over Skype and such. I'd look for companies like us and inquire about whether we'd be willing to hire you to work in the China office. If you've got a good Java background, I'm sure we'd seriously consider hiring you to work at our China office. We might require you to train for a couple of weeks in SF first and come back for a couple weeks a year, but I'd hope that wouldn't be a problem for you. As a bonus, you'd likely not have to deal with getting a Chinese work permit, though you should probably confirm that.
If you're interested, respond to this comment with some way to contact you and I can send your resume to HR.
"Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
Changes are that their Java Devs are way more cheaper than you and way better at chinese. And there are most certainly legion. I'd suggest you go with what you've got and do advanced english and english Java consulting. Maybe even some Technical Account Management with customers in the US ... you'll have an edge as a native speaker.
See this as an opportunity to make a move from deving into management. You will not be able to outbid the local competition. ... This is not switzerland, you know.
Oh, and do be prepared for some really extreme air pollution. Stock up on Masks and Air filters and such.
My 2 cents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
If a chinese company wants you to work as part of a larger group of developers, they will expect you to be able to speak their language in order to participate...
On the other hand, your best bet is probably to work for a company in an english speaking country that will let you work remotely... I know a few people who do development for london/uk based companies but who live in thailand, a uk wage goes a LONG way in a place like thailand.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Sorry to be blunt but you're very delusional expecting to get a job without speaking the language. Even if you got one you would probably be unable to survive on the salary. Just marry her so she can become a Canadian citizen and go to school there. Why did she apply for a program in China without you first sorting out living/work arrangements anyway?
I did this. I found a job in Shenzhen China, spending 2 years writing software at an outsourcing company. (PHP, Java, and (cringe) Oracle Forms Apps) I found the job in the US before I went overseas, via some odd connections, so I can't speak much about how you should get the job, but maybe the reports from some of my experiences could help you.
First, one of the things that makes it hard for you to find a job is that they assume that you'll want an expensive American salary. At my job, I agreed to work for slightly higher than a standard Chinese native would make, but significantly lower than a standard American salary (I made about 12K USD per year, which was plenty). It might be worth mentioning in any cover letter/resume/etc what your salary expectation would be.
Second, I don't know about all outsourcing companies, but where I worked, because most of our customers were in the US, there was an expectation that every employee needed to speak at least a little English. In reality, most people's English was pretty poor, but it meant that they were willing to hire someone like me with no Mandarin skills. So it might be worth focusing on companies that service US customers. They loved having me around for phone calls with the customers. (Realistically, I eventually ended up spending half of my time doing project management work because of my ability to easily communicate with our customers)
Really, particularly in the outsourcing business, me being a token white american was valuable for the company. They could claim that they had a native English-speaker to help with customer communication, etc. As long as your salary doesn't price you out of their range, you could really sell your native North-American English skills as a positive. And (unfortunately) depending on your race, a white face can still open doors and opportunities in China (at least in Shenzhen it could). (it was really odd getting so much positive attention just because I looked like a stereotypical white american). When big important people came to visit the company, I'd always get introduced to them, even when it really made no sense based on my position -- they just wanted to show me off.
So don't be discouraged by all the nay-sayers here. It's definitely possible to find software development jobs in China.
That all being said, there were definitely some frustrating aspects of the job. For one thing, it ended up being fairly lonely, as it was harder to socialize with people that don't speak your language. While I eventually learned enough Mandarin to communicate, and they knew enough English, it was certainly harder to really be friends with your coworkers. And a lonely workplace is a bit discouraging.
Either way, good luck, I hope you find something!
All of the comparisons to immigrants in the U.S. who can't speak English don't necessarily apply. I worked in Beijing as an assistant teacher (really a full fledged instructor) in a startup 3D animation school run jointly by Americans and Chinese. At least when I was there in 2007, the students held myself and the other western instructors in very high esteem, even though I was younger than most of them. There's a perception that the westerners especially in teaching roles are the key to all knowledge, and there's a huge desire to learn everything. The school had translators present so language wasn't really an issue. I visited several companies and schools and found other westerners in similar roles, so I imagine there are still opportunities other than teaching English if you look specifically at startups and other institutions.
Contact me, my company has a subsidiary in Beijin and is looking for skilled developpers but with good english skills.
http://www.transparency.org
If you are dead set on working in Asia in an IT role your best bet is to do what has been suggested before and find a US firm willing to send you out there. They simply aren't interested in you unless you can provide a skill they need; ie, native english speaker. I have sent a number of resumes to IT firms in Japan looking for talent and the best I've gotten is a few email exchanges with that stopped cold as soon as they realized I wasn't in Japan. Get an ESL cert and teach English, at least if you're there you have a shot.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
agree with this. But I think he wants to keep his resume focused on java.
There is a spark in every single flame bait point.
I had the same situation a few years ago. First, you can totally forget any local programming jobs. Chinese programmers get paid about 2000 RMB / month (a pathetic pittance) and there is a long line to get a starting position.
I found a compromise for the teaching English route; teach IT classes *in* English. Find a university that has a 'learn abroad' exchange program with a university in the USA or UK. Their students there in China will have a requirement to take courses taught in English, preferably by a native speaker, in order to qualify for the exchange program. This is vastly superior to just teaching English and pays better as well. I taught at China Agricultural University which has such an agreement with University of Portsmouth in the UK. There are a lot of others with the same situation. To find them, work backwards: browse the websites of the schools in the UK and US in the foreign exchange section and look for their partner schools in China. If there is a 'you must complete x hours of courses taught in English', apply to that school in China.
Either that, or before you even go set up a "100% work remote" gig with an employer here.
Um, is there any reason not to learn Mandarin? Immersed in the language and culture I doubt it would take you as much as a year to become competent in the language. What a great freeking oportunity. Your life in China will improve dramatically. If your technical skills are worth selling you could probably get a job (especially one where English is a plus), even if not, competency in Chinese would be fun and useful in just about any international company.
Take the job teaching English for 6-months, learn Mandarin then figure out what you want to do.
Monolingualism is not a disease without a cure.
where native language skills are a positive disadvantage. All that whining...
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
match? eharmony? jdate? Either man-up and be a house husband or man-up and tell your wife that moving to China is going to put a huge strain on your marriage.
For instance, my company has opened new offices in Hong Kong and are looking for IT staff.
..but I have worked there for several years, then moved to Finland and trying to get back again.
It shouldn't be too difficult to get something once you're there, but they will expect to pay you the same as a local, and you'll have to sort out some deal for health insurance.
Another option is to try a company such as Canonical or Redhat, where they let you work from home. There are some agencies there too, who recognise the value in a foreigner.
You might find something on the web site for the Beijing Linux Users' Group, and I suppose other similar.
Microsoft, Google, Nokia, and Intel all have sizable offices there. ..but I still think most companies won't look at you until you're there.
Max.
You could rent yourself out as a white guy in a suit.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/rent-a-white-guy/8119/
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
Make good friends with a Chinese programmer/english speaker/business person or two. Between the two/three of you, you find contracts in the west, they recruit and manage the programmers, and translate your specs. Meanwhile you can learn some Chinese from them. Later, you can apply to sponsor their work visas to come work onsite in Canada for your customers, I guess, providing you incorporate in Canada before you go.
Korma: Good
Mod this up!!!
This also happened to me and about 6 of my friends. Long, drawn out, expensive education/training/internships all over the U.S, then "oh, I want to be a stay at home mom". In a few years when the kids are older, she said she may decide to go to work. Of course, after a few years her education won't be up to date. I'm sure she sees it as no problem -- she can just go back to university for a couple of years and refresh her class work. Meanwhile, my career path was stunted by moving around, and now I have to pay back her student loans. I fully support education for women, but when anyone doesn't use something that was made possible by sacrifices it kind of makes me unhappy.
Given your lack of local language skills, I think trying to apply directly to a Chinese company is probably a waste of time. I'm a US citizen who has lived and worked abroad a couple of times, and I think your best bets are: (1) a US or Canadian company which has subsidiaries or affiliates in China, or (2) an approach through a US or Candian affiliate of a Chinese company. Basically, you want to try for things where your English skills will be a net asset. That's the way I got my expat positions, though I grant your situation is harder -- I worked in Europe, and I already spoke some German and French.
This isn't that bad an idea. You wouldn't have to be too fluent in Chinese. But damn, they really do need somebody to fix Engrish in the documentation.
No they don't, because in practice hardly anybody bases purchase decisions on the standard of English in the manual.
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
A bit more on the subject of "white guy window dressing".
Absent native-level fluency in Chinese (in other words, the complete opposite of where you are), your command of the English language will be the only thing that gets you in the door anywhere. Think about it from their standpoint, why hire a westerner who can program but can't read spec sheets or communicate with his peers when you can hire a native who can program and also is a functional member of the office environment?
And who will work for Chinese wage levels. When I looked at jobs in Beijing I thought the monthly rate looked ok but not great, then realised that I was actually looking at annual rates.
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
In my last job we had a group member that was living in Seattle while we were in Houston. We'd have weekly meetings and he'd phone in. It worked out pretty well. For someone living in China, you'd just have to figure out a schedule that would allow you to meet with your group over the phone.
That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
A native Chinese friend of mine in a city a couple hours from Beijing works for a textbook publisher, and they almost always have someone from Canada around on a multi-year contract to work with their translators. If they're doing a textbook for Chinese people studying English at whatever level, the translators will do their best to put the necessary things into English, and they will predictably massacre all the idioms and half of the rest. And if they're working on translating a textbook from English into Chinese, the translators will be baffled by all kinds of phrases and need them explained.
Being friends, we help each other out with our respective languages, and I've had to explain things like what "track lights" are, and generally fix lots of grammar.
This assumes, of course, that the Anon is not only a native English speaker, but has a high level of proficiency.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
I heard that Chinese companies are hiring random white people to wear nice suits and sit in on big business meetings and just look important. Helps if you have light brown or blond hair or blue/green/grey eyes. No joke! You can always get blue contact lenses or dye your hair if need be to help your odds of getting hired. It may be bigoted but its still a paycheck for you and you have done nothing wrong. Back me up people, I know others have hear this.
I lived in Beijing for 4 years and to be honest it's not going to be super easy to land an IT job as there are plenty of qualified local chinese engineers for most any task and they are going to be cheaper than you. That being said if you are somewhat lucky you might find a good gig.
Look for IT listings on the websites of the local monthly english language magazines:
http://www.thebeijinger.com/
http://www.cityweekend.com.cn/beijing
Go to the local user group meetings and network such as the Beijing Linux user group:
http://www.clubbeautiful.com/ (strange domain I know)
These guys have been around a long time and do outsourcing work for large european companies mostly:
http://www.exoweb.net/en
These guys provide local hosting services and may possibly an avenue:
http://www.candisgroup.com/
Any multinational uses English exclusivly. They just cannot function any other way. In the team of 10 I work in, we have 5-6 different native tongues. Which means, half of the team doesn't even speak the local language!
The flip side of this is, that any native English speaker has an (unfair?) advantage. Sorry - zarro sympathy points from me.
Speaking English only might be ok in an academic environment although my experience (in Japan) says that you might have most of the staff reading and writing English but unable to speak it. You might also want to apply directly to American or Western companies in the area. I assume there is no shortage of them.
They charge the U.S. companies they outsource to $12-$20/hour.
Seriously, learn some Mandarin before going, and expect to be values for your understanding of English and Western corporate culture.
-- Terry
Most universities do not grant degrees that are worth much outside of China. Only the top few are recognized as having any consistent level of quality, and most PhD students I see in China publish third or fourth-rate work. Unless you're really at a top-rated place you should seriously consider doing a PhD elsewhere.
Seriously... look into get a job with an offshore facility. Places like that need people with grand English skills. With outsourcing the way it is, you would be a feather in the cap of an outsourcing firm.
Quite a while ago I read the answer to a simliar question about finding work in Europe.
Most Europian countries have strict laws about hiring non-citizens for most jobs. He got around that by finding contract work through an American contracting agency.
The benefits are that since contract work is inherently temporary there were no problems with non-citizen status. The contract agency would bill the company directly and deposit his paycheck in an American bank so he usually didn't even have to pay local taxes. And the IRS has (had?) generous tax deductions for Americans who spend over some large number of days out of the country.
The downside is that he moved around quite a bit, whether by choice or job requirements I couldn't say.
I also don't know if there are any agencies in Canada or America that contract with companies in China.
I am not familiar with Chinese visa, so I have one question. What kind of visa do you obtain from them? Is it a working visa? Or is it a follower type visa (as in the U.S. is called F2)? Then if it is F2, do they allow the follower to work? I know that in the U.S., they do not allow those who have F2 to work. Be careful if you have a visa similar to F2 because you and/or your fiancé would take a risk of losing the visa if you are going to work.
I assume that it would be F2 because the U.S. has F1 for student, so I am guessing that China would also have similar visa type.
Do they base FIRST purchases on it? No, probably not. But does it even very subtly influence future decisions? "These two products are about the same price and have the same features.. One has a good manual describing the features, one is horrible.. Which one should I buy?"
That should do the trick...
I moved to China two years ago with no background in the language at all.
Total, 100% immersion + whatever training material I could get my hands on.
Now, I'm pretty fluent. But, 3 months in? Forget it. I couldn't even talk to a taxi driver with any consistency. Forget ordering food from a normal menu. Picture menu or nothing.
Help correct the web pages from China. Sometimes when I read one, my eyes have a tendency to go else where.
And if you can pick up some Manderin, you can translate the "publically" accessable documents that some folks, in China, have recently come across, on the internet...
It's for the workers. Having a white guy in a suit from the company contracting the work to come down and cut a ribbon or some other celebration shows the workers that they are a valuable part of the company instead of just contracted workers.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
You obviously don't know what you are talking aboot!
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
AC could open a Canadian take-away...
One word: guanxi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanxi
China is cracking down on foreigners currently. There's a 100-day crackdown, coincidentally announced a few days after a Brit tried to rape a Chinese girl.
This crackdown focuses on those without a valid visa, those working without a work permit and those who did not register their place residence. However, while it does not target legit foreigners directly, it also means a lot more scrutiny goes into work permit applications. This may make your search a little harder, at least temporarily.
Where in most countries any company with a justified need can apply to hire foreigners, in China this is not the case. Companies need to be licensed to do so, so writing to Chinese or even foreign companies in China randomly is probably a waste of time. Your best bet may be contacting some China based head hunters, which you can easily find on LinkedIn.
Please do not go the route of working on an F-visa (business visa). For those who come to China alone the risk of being kicked out (and banned!) may not be too bad, but since your girl will be staying there it would be a dumb choice to make, especially with the ongoing crackdown.
This really depends which city he ends up in. 5 years in Beijing taught me nothing, with people at the office as well as many restaurants speaking English to me.
I've since moved to a smaller town and I've learned more Mandarin in 2 weeks than in the 5 years before.
Please read The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Then tell me how many of those 30 rights are not abused in the US of A.
I disagree. I know several people who find the owners manual online before making a purchase. Badly written ones are a big negative. People often read reviews before a purchase, and a poor manual will be reflected in that. It's a large factor if it is so poorly written that a lot of people can't figure out how to use the product.
Man, you really need that seminar!
You have a skill that is highly desired in China, You speak english like an American native.
Speaking english is a -highly- desired skill in China, so the need for people who can teach is correctly is paramount. It won't be programming, but you should be able to get a job teaching english, even though you can't speak any of the chinese languages.[Yes it is possible to teach english to people even if you don't speak their language. Formal grammar instruction would be out, but vocabulary, spelling, and pronunciation would be in.
If not teaching at a formal school, then tutoring small groups of students who already have some english skills, on "native english" could be a sellable skill as well. Perhaps even more than teaching at a school.
In the meantime, start learning some Mandarin. Its not that hard.
Zài jiàn for now.
http://mandarin.about.com/library/audio/voc_bye/voc_bye_1.mp3.
Where "home" == China for the time being. Get a job with a Canadian company, paid in Loonies into a Canadian bank account that you can access from China. Just research the tax obligations, but with a good internet connection, an understanding boss and your skillset you can probably be pretty productive.
Nullius in verba
I'm amazed by all the comments at saying 'don't do it, Chinese hate foreigners at the moment' or 'just deal with being an English teacher'. There are lots of opportunities for non-mandarin speaking folk in Shanghai and Beijing at the moment. They also have vibrant, embryonic startup scenes which are a mix of westerners and locals coming together.
If you want to get into the startup scene, try and go one of the networking events like BarCamp or Startup Suana. Get your business card out there and you'll generate some leads. There are also quite a few small web shops that are staffed with a mix of Chinese and Westerners. Good examples are ReignDesign and WebAge...they're Shanghai companies, but I'm sure you can find the BeiJing equivalents. Have seen both of those advertise on StackOverflow jobs.
If you want to go for some of the big established companies, I've found a lot of leads through LinkedIn. Companies like Microsoft, Amazon and the investment banks are OK with bringing on foreigners as they can help bridge communication and rapport back to the US headoffice. Though, don't expect a western salary. Big companies are competitive with the market, but still not comparable with what you're used to.
Good luck. It's not as easy as back home where you can just browse a site and have all the opportunities laid out in front of you. You'll have to do a little digging, but there are plenty of opportunities to meet your expectations and skills.
Much the best of the many China expat forum websites is: http://raoulschinasaloon.com/index.php There are an almost infinite number of English-teaching jobs in China, and any foreigner here will get offers to tutor people. However, many contracts forbid outside work; it is quite common to cheat on this and employers often overlook it, but you cannot count on that. For an overview of overseas English teaching in general, see: http://wikitravel.org/en/Teaching_English Getting one of the teaching certificates they discuss might help a lot if you want that sort of work. As someone said in another post, many of the best-paid teaching jobs are at schools that are joint ventures between a foreign and a Chinese institution. For jobs in IT, the best pay & conditions are at foreign companies. There is not a lot of demand for foreign developers and engineers, though there is some, but project managers are in great demand. In some cases, anyone who speaks English well enough to talk to the clients will be given the title "project manager"; in other cases they want real management skills.
As I have some personal experience in this kind of problem I would recommend you don't waste your time and resources to do this. At the moment I am in Shanghai doing an internship to complete my degree in EE. As I will be finished quite soon I have been looking around for jobs, the problem is they pay just so damned little (seriously, only 10000 rmb/month to be an engineer at a leading western company in the networking business). Accepting to work here would just give me a financial stagnation compared to working in my native country, the Netherlands. The only reason to advise you to go ahead would be if you plan to live in China the rest of your lives, but I doubt that would be a good idea due to anti foreigner sentiment growing here as well as substandard healthcare and other things which will become more important as you get older. Supposing you want to have to kids then you need to send them to an international school or they will be just as retarded as the average Chinese person. Which means you need to have a good financial situation going which will be difficult unless you speak the language. The best way to get a comfortable life here would be to be sent here from your current employer to work as a manager in their Chinese branch. Besides, a Chinese PhD has no value in the western world. It would be way better to let your fiancee come to stay in Canada to get a PhD there.
My son has a friend who works in Beijing as a programmer and definitely does not speak any flavour of Chinese except what he might have picked up in the past 2 years. So it is possible
Like other Asian countries, it is near impossible to find a job in your desired field unless you're transferred to China from some multinational company.
What makes it so hard is that China has pretty tough laws on employing foreigners, and those laws usually mean that you need to be working doing something that cannot be fulfilled by someone locally. Secondly, they need to pay you a higher minimum wage compared to Chinese Nationals. If I were you, I'd look at the teaching job as a means to an end for now and worry about finding something later once you're established. At least it's legal. And stay away from doing anything under the table, the consequences in China are a lot worse than somewhere like Australia or Canada.
Being someone who has migrated to Thailand, it's a huge step you're taking and the first couple of weeks are the hardest. Just stick to it and try stay motivated and remember to take everything with a grain of salt (or rice, so to speak!)
It is actually not too hard, I have been working as a programmer in China for 7 years and, although I can speak some Chinese, it has never been a must-have. In Beijing, you can try the big names or look for start-ups. Better be flexible in terms of salary of course. The big recruitment websites have English interfaces: http://www.51job.com/ http://www.chinahr.com/index.htm Look for headhunters too, and use linkedin.
http://jobs.efinancialcareers.cn/Information_Technology.htm
There's a website called www.thebeijinger.com. It's sort of like craigslist for Beijing, and it's where all the expats hang out.
Microsoft, Google and IBM are in Beijing and the working language is English.
Beijing has a strong international start-up scene. It's a University hub, much like Cambridge, MA in the US.
A great site for learning Chinese is chinesepod.com.
Many banks are now offshoring to Shanghai instead of India. The one I work for has several thousand developers and engineers out there.
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Epitaph: At last! Root access!
Or couldn't he just dump the fiancee and not have to consider going to a repressive country where he can't even speak the language?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
A lot of these comments are worthless because they're from people that have never been to China, don't understand China, and assume that a person that doesn't speak Chinese there is the same as someone who doesn't speak English here. Which is false.
You can find a job, especially if you're white. You WILL hit a glass ceiling eventually due to the lack of language skills... but there are things that you can do.
I know that you want to stay in the programming world, but I have to ask why you've discounted the idea of teaching English already. It is probably the most lucrative thing you can do... if you teach at a school for 6 months or a year, then you'll have been around long enough to make some contacts and branch out into private teaching. That's where the money is... even in the mainland, you can exceed $20+/hr if you're looking in the right place.
A few others have mentioned specializing in teaching English for computer/business, which also tends to net a little more money than a generic teacher. Either way, for teaching, I'd recommend getting a full TEFL certification (my recommendation is the CELTA; don't trust online or weekend-only courses -- you'd just be doing yourself a disservice).
Now my serious question is if your fiancee is native Chinese or a Canadian that just happens to be going to China for her PhD. If she's native Chinese then it's whatever, but if she's Canadian then I think she should seriously consider the usefulness of a Chinese education. I've heard of westerners with advanced degrees from mainland China get laughed out of interviews or get their resume shredded just for that. I mean it has people shaking their heads faster than seeing University of Phoenix on one's education section.
Also, as a few people have mentioned, Beijing's air sucks, and I'd be surprised if you make it more than a few weeks without a severe throat infection. It's pretty gross.
If y'all really want to do the abroad thing, then do it in Hong Kong or Singapore. More money, better places, more non-native friendly.
Get in the IT staff of an AMerican-based (UK-based?) company that has a lot of customers/foreigners like yourself.
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
You should probably contact the Canadian Embassy in Beijing. They would be in a good position to advise you how to proceed.
The two most important languages of the future are English and Mandarin Chinese. You have mastered one, now do the other. Take a night course to start, you will meet other, employed Westerners. Who you know counts for a lot in Asia and you can frequently get a job this way. You might also find a Chinese reading and writing course for English speakers. It is not that hard once you understand the logic of Chinese characters. Learning to read and write Chinese is the most amazing thing that you can do.
Sending resumes before you go does not work, so don't let it get you down.
You also have the chance to get into the real Chinese social network, because your fiancée will. There are opportunities here, as another writer said above. Having a job is a good way to get a better one. Business is booming in Asia, there are new opportunities all of the time. It is not stable and level like in Canada.
Thing aren't like back back home, image counts for a lot. Looking the part gets you into places that you want to go. Get a custom made suit, get some nice casual clothes, it will be expected of you. You can watch the way people treat you differently depending on whether you dress up or dress down, it is almost funny. Like it or not, people will form opinions on you depending on how you dress. Don't be timid, to really fit in you will learn to do some things in a way that you would not do at home. Everything is completely different than what you are used to. so don't see problems when what you know doesn't work. Be sure to see the new things that you don't know. Some people can't take it, they go home quick, some people see an exciting new world to get to know and become adept at, then end up staying many years more than they intended.
I do not know Beijing. I do know several other cities in China, mainly 1st / 2nd tier, and what I will write below is concentrated on multinationals. This is intended to educate on the market concerning IT and multinationals; other options do exist.
Multinationals - mainly US companies in the IT field:
A lot of multinationals divert development and testing work to China, the most common reason cited is 'concentration risk' which sometimes means China is cheaper than India which it is a bit but for detailed varying reasons I will accept a consultancy fee for. The other compelling reasons is a genuine worry too much is offshored / outsourced to India and therefore is subject to India-specific market conditions, be it attrition which is much higher than China or other risk.
The expected working environment is English language. Office banter happens in Chinese, but international conference calls with India, US and Europe occur in English. And hiring a good local developer with good language skills is difficult. Testers are easier as communication skills are essential with English majors mixed with automation and CompSci majors less interested in development is the usual mix there, testers then get testing methodology training from the company they join. But developers - a strong developer tends to have less strong language skills, one with English language and good development skills are like gold dust.
But one thing turns gold dust to a diamond. That is specific product knowledge. Multinationals tend to have teams working with international teams on implementing large projects lasting several years which also require specific and intricate knowledge of a specific software product - not development environment, actual product being worked on, or related product which said product interacts with. This Subject Matter Expert will be extremely highly sought after.
To platinum plate your diamond, add Linux / Unix shell and some Big Iron experience. The vast majority of CompSci university education experience is Windows, .NET and Java centric, as that's where jobs are on an aggregate level. But university education outside a few exceptions at the top academic institutions is so Windows, .NET and Java centric then outside the largest institutions *nix is rarely taught, leading to a drought of experienced professionals in that area.
If you have all of the above, you will be an exotic, platinum coated diamond headed to a senior developer / manager position in a multinational. If you have some, you will be sought after. SME is the killer for a hiring manager. HR might not know exactly what is sought, but if a hiring manager sees SME skills they will move mountains to ensure you're hired at some kind of specialist or manager - though not necessarily managing people - level. Expect to be expected to spend time coaching others on the team.
Developers are also sought as good SIT / UAT testing managers, complimenting a pure-testing shop with some of 'the other side' experience. That's also an option. Having Project Management experience / ownership / governance would be a boost for a developer wanting to do testing management
Language is not an issue in multinationals. You'll be welcomed, the managers will feel happy to have attracted a well qualified foreign talent and once trust is built probably confide quite a lot. Remember you'll also bring a strong level of cultural diversity, many of the team will not have worked overseas, despite working with overseas so much, and they will have a lot of interest in learning new working practices and ideas, but broker that carefully with existing management.
As for salary - depends on what can be brought from the above. Ideal is working for an existing multinational and getting a relocation and expat package, but the reality is that now only happens at the most senior levels, Director-ish or with extreme specialist skills that simply do not exist locally. Accept a local+ offer. To calibrate what that is, or to get any personal tips, either yourself or anyone else reading this, please shoot this message a reply or send me a personal message.
You can call yourself "Mr. Potemkin".
I'm sure they have a few rinks in Beijing.
I don't know if China has a National Hockey team, but they should.
Certainly youth programs at least.
Companies like Autodesk have a large office in Shanghai and are hiring. Check www.autodesk.com/jobs
Because of course all of those Chinese companies with poorly written manuals went bust years ago. Oh, wait...
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You can try this web http://www.thebeijinger.com/ to find a suitable job. Personally I think some elementary Chinese is important and will definitely help both of you to live in Beijing. Also language courses are fairly cheap and easy to begin. Places like Beijing Foreign Langauge University, Beijing Language University, Beijing Normal University all provide similar courses. Good luck.