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Can the UK Create Something To Rival Silicon Valley?
An anonymous reader writes "Hoping to bring together ambition, creativity and energy in one place, the UK government hopes to grow East London so that we can benefit from the same sort of success that has been seen in California; jobs, tax revenue, highly skilled workers and takeovers. If it works, the country would massively benefit, with something to rival other established industries."
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A good start would be not offering to arrest and deport people who broke no law in your country.
The UK doesn't have any PC manufactures.. ..Because they have not yet found a way to make PCs leak oil.
Look at what happened with the Raspberry Pi, import taxes pretty much sunk any possibility of building it in the UK.
I am one of those people who came to the UK to jump form a successful startup (Playfish) to another successful startup (Plumbee), but my main problem is finding a place to stay that works out. I want a place that is: - Close to the office - Got decent standards - Is affordable - I can have for a long term In London I can only choose two from that list. Then there are extremely greedy landlords and sleazy estate agents that will only want to fool you of your money in a not so well regulated business. This is practically making it impossible for me to be able to save up money and continue to do my job here, and is the main reason for me wanting to move away from London as soon as possible and leave this wreck of a housing market behind.
What we actually need is a new "wild west". A place where there are no artificial restrictions like patents, lawyers and what not so that innovation can flourish.
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
the UK government hopes to grow East London so that we can benefit from the same sort of success that has been seen in California;
- DOA, just like Russian version of Silicon Valley (Skolkovo).
That is unless the government in UK is planning to get rid of regulations, taxes, labour laws and inflation of-course.
MY OTHER COMMENTS
Why not try to do it in Cambridge? It's already a major technology cluster, better invest there than to try to recreate something from scratch...
Sorry, yes, the UK already has
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Glen
Watch those corners
No
The first sentence of that article is "With the Olympics about to get underway"...
Why is such an old article coming up?
What is the author smoking. California currently has $380 billion in devt and a 10.8% unemployment rate. I would call that far from being successful.
If I were the UK, I would not want to model anything after California
sudo make me a sandwich
Can England gather together a bunch of self righteous, self absorbed a**holes that will hop from one company to another hoping to strike it obscenely rich?
Were you asleep in civics class when they discussed the British East India Company?
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
The vast majority of SV ventures have been expensive failures. It's essentially a welfare economy subsidized by venture capitalists who prey on the ignorance of non-technical investors. The rare ventures that succeed tend to move out of SV. The vast majority of SV workers never get rich; they move elsewhere when they are past age 30 and are no longer welcome. SV puts out its hype about the virtues of "hard work", "two men in a garage", and "no government" -- though in reality, it's about knowing the right people, being in the right place at the right time, and making most of their money from government contracts. Most scientific advances happen outside of SV, and most successful high-tech businesses are based outside of SV. I would say that SV is just a mysique created by the banking industry.
The future of high-tech leans toward medicine. SV is not strong in medicine; they just have bubbly biotech start-ups that typically disappear within a year. The successful high-tech business of the future will depend more on interactions with non-IT people, but SV's homogeneous population places it at a disadvantage there. SV does not have large numbers of health care professionals, industrial technicians, or other types who would provide valuable input.
Government? Really? Mmmmm. No.
So they can't pull the 80 hour work weeks or useing temps as full time long term in place of employees.
Also, no non-compete contracts.
If there are enforced non-compete contracts then there will be no community of individuals to hire to create a "Silicon Valley".
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
Different places have different specialties.. And when a place attracts lots of people who know something, it becomes a pole for that thing, generates high salaries in that field, and make life very expensive for everyone else. Silicon Valley, Bangalore, etc do high tech. New York, London, Hong Kong do banking. You can't have all of them. And I doubt a small-ish country like the UK can have many of them. The US can afford to have New York and Silicon Valley because they're very very far appart. The City is just too close to East London (or even Cambridge) to make them separate markets, meaning that old humid houses are still terribly expensive and no one in their right minds would want to move there unless they are made tons and tons of money.
that will hop from one company to another hoping to strike it obscenely rich?
Depends on how liberally their Restraint of Trade clauses are interpreted.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
Not being from the UK, I'm given to understand that the regulations on employment and tax structure is much less favorable to starting up a business there than it is in the United States. (Whether that, especially the former, is a good thing is an open question.) Even with the support and incentives mentioned in the blog posting, it's hard to see how they would create a SV like environment without that. Would anyone from the UK care to chime in?
Well one thing UK employers don't have to worry about is the health care of their employees. They don't have to deal with the endless mountain of paperwork going back and forth between patients and health insurance companies like they do in America.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
It's a pointless question. Let me explain:
Theoretically, the UK could try to accomplish this. The main barrier preventing any type of industry from flourishing in the UK is the obscenely high effective tax rate on human activity. (please give this typical figures, maybe in percentage if you're more familiar Brits)
The UK could then make an attempt to relieve a certain location and industry of these high taxation burdens to have the locus flourish.
The problem is that while this is a good move and should be applauded, simply cutting taxation on human activity without cutting the corresponding government spending doesn't solve much. The spending has to be paid for somehow, whether that is immediately by confiscating funds from other people and locations or somewhat delayed by building deficits and inflating the fiat money supply and thereby causing the mis-allocation of resources and bigger busts and recessions or depressions, people will continue to pay the piper.
The only sure way to encourage industry to flourish is to cut regulation and cut government taxation and spending. Remember, most government taxation is appropriating funds from a more effective use determined by the market, and instead putting them to less effective use as determined by bureaucrats.
Liberty.
No, because UK doesn't have Al Gore.
... do they really want that?
Of course, that also means that in the end, yes, you have a lot of high tech industry around, but it eventually costs you more in subsidiaries and kickbacks than you get in tax revenue.
Hint: Cali is broke.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
You don't need civics class for that now. You can learn all about it with Johnny Depp in their wonderfully instructive series Pirates of the Caribbean.
The boat sailed on a Silicon Valley workalike about 25 years ago. What with all the tech patents, software patents, business model patents, and patent trolls sewing up innovation unless you're already IBM, Microsoft, or Apple, you won't be able to innovate and defend anything What are they thinking, incubate and develop the next Facebook? The next PayPal? TechLawyers.com?
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Aren't these bastards currently 'round the corner in Ireland where the same was tried a while ago? And as we all know, Ireland is the financial center of Europe with vast amounts of capital surplus.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
A lot of things have to come together to create a 'Silicon Valley'. 1. You need a university center of excellence (like Stanford University) that actively promotes the high technology business. They have (or at least had) leases on land in the Santa Clara Valley, and offered good rates to fledgeling technology companies. 2. You have to have an entrepreneurial spirit: this isn't some 'I just graduated from business school, now I want my million dollars' boob, you need someone who has an idea or a set of ideas, are willing to put in time and effort developing those ideas, and create things that people want. Some of that spirit comes from being highly creative, almost artsy, and that's a trillion light years from any business school 'follow the leader' types. 3. You need financial backing from people who can see things in the long term. All countries have banks, but most have banks that turn tail and run at the first sign of trouble. They don't want to backstop people for the long term. They are good at providing money when the company doesn't need very much (when the sun is shining they offer umbrellas), but then it turns cloudy or starts to rain, they want their money (umbrella) back. Many other countries have centres of excellence with an entrepreneurial spirit, but a crappy banking/financial system where there is no long term outlook. Companies in these countries fail, because the financial backing is lacking.
You need to find someone to pick the right start-ups. Those people are rare, and unlikely to work for a city.
You need a pro-privacy, pro-free speach atmosphere, something that UK seriously lacks. (Cameras, libel laws, etc)
You need a good source of well educated people interested in science, not business.
You need a good place to live. Something that will attract smart people to live there besides the money. The UK is not sunny California.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
so that we can benefit from the same sort of success that has been seen in California
Yes, and for free, if you order now, you will also receive:
*Crushingly high real estate prices
*Monstrously overcrowded prisons
*Bankrupt schools
BUT WAIT! THERES MORE! Be one of the first 100 callers and receive, as our special gift to you:
*Shortages of electricity and water!
*Political leadership totally devoid of morality, consistency, or backbone!
But seriously, California is a "hotbed" for ONE single reason: The weather is nice pretty much all year long. Anyone who lives there and tries to sell you on something else is lying to themselves. People go for the nice weather, and they put up with the constant bullshit because hey, it like never snows, unless you live in the mountains, which are only like 2 hours' drive away from the beaches... So why not live there? Right? And once you get enough smart people in one place (they are bound to turn up when you have 30 million people to start with) things just sort of take shape.
So, UK, you want your own Silicon Valley? Get a warm-weather generator, a couple of nice schools, a semi-pristine coastline, then fill it over the top with people, and wait 50 years. You will probably get something like that, or hey maybe you will end up with something like Haiti. Could go either way.
I think that Silicon Valley and innovation these days mostly means software development and services on the Internet, and not so much hardware devices and operating system.
I also wonder why technologically minded people would want to move to a place and innovate when you get arrested for a tweet. Now before +Troll, think about it for a second. Most people responsible for innovation these days don't like regulations constraining the Internet, and certainly not regulations and laws that get users thrown in jail.
The UK truly is a pit of shit right now as far the Internet, freedom, privacy, freedom of speech, etc. is concerned. Not exactly attractive to most of the talent in the rest of the world. If you are already there you are just making the best of it.
California is broke because of Prop 13. It basically cut out from under it the main funding mechanism for the state government property taxes and then put severe limitations on how the state could raise funds through other mechanisms by making any tax increase in other categories like sales tax or income tax too difficult to enact. As such the previous high-tax/high-service government that Californians enjoyed became unstainable.
Additionally, due to the initiative system the state has almost no control over it's finances. Something like 70% of the budget is mandated spending by initiatives, with a large portion of the remaining 30% either things you have to spend money on like police, or required via Federal funds. It's why to pass a budget every year they always need to resort to some tricks. And with the requirement that they need 2/3rds majority to pass any budget, instead of 50%+1 like every other state in the union, means the minority party has no interest to negotiate.
Until then the question is moot.
No, because UK doesn't have Al Gore.
No but they have Tony Blair, and he's teflon coated, Al Gore only has hairspray and makeup.
I guess I must have missed something.
So you are saying that the British East India Company was a conglomeration of private businesses with employees constantly jumping ship from one private business to the next?
That sounds closer to Lloyds of London rather than the British East India Company.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd's_of_London
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
Clueless politicians sometimes have these ideas which, on the surface at lease, seem like a good idea.
Unfortunately, they have no earthly idea how to implement these ideas; and indeed, the very political nature of their jobs and way of thinking precludes them from doing so.
To draw an analogy, it's like trying to grow a forest by transplanting seedlings, without considering issues like soil quality, moisture, or environment.
Businesses are started by innovation, and grow in an environment of infrastructure.
What is the infrastructure in London like? Is there easy and direct access to roads, or is there draconian limits on driving in the city. Is there universal access to high-speed internet, or are there restrictions on what you can do with your net connection?
How easy is it to register a new business? Are there tax breaks for established businesses which newly-started businesses don't get? Do existing businesses get political favors that the local pizza-shop doesn't have access to?
Does the society have a general feeling of tolerance for radical ideas? Do they allow people to air radical ideas in the political forum? Do the laws enforce restrictions on publishing truthful facts (such as libel/slander)?
Does the society allow free exchange of ideas and reworking and improvement of the ideas of others (as the fashion industry does), or do they promote draconian restrictions? (Note the size of the fashion industry which has no protections, versus the size of the music/movie industry which is very strict.)
Does London allow people to go about freely and conduct affairs which do not harm others, or are people always monitored, afraid, "looking over their shoulders"?
Is high-level crime punished at the same level as low-level? IOW, can rich business owners get away with serious crimes with impunity? (Wasn't some rich business owner accused of tampering with a police investigation awhile back? Did anyone go to jail for that?)
This sounds ever-so-much like a fuzzy "feel good" idea that sounds nice on paper, which will be used as an excuse to funnel tax money from the people to existing businesses. "If you set up here for a tax break, we'll get more in tax revenue from the workers than the tax break costs".
As a contrast, look at Hong Kong pre-2000 (before it became part of China), and India pre-2000. Hong Kong had no resources and no people, but was a major world power. India had lots of people and lots of resources but was a 3rd world nation. To start a business in Hong Kong you pay a small fee and register... you're done. In America, it's a little more but largely painless.
In India, it took Kentucky Fried Chicken 7 years to get "permission" to start selling food in India.
Environment matters. Innovation and infrastructure is what counts.
I thought California is broke because people can vote for propositions while simultaneously voting against any measures to fund said propositions. The general fund isn't an unlimited source of free money.
You can get arrested for statements you make on the Internet in the U.S. Just post a death threat about Obama or post a bomb threat while using your real name and see how fast to takes for the Secret Service and/or police to come viist you.
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If you want a "silicon valley" in the UK, don't target East London. Extend what you have and go for Reading [pronounce "REDDING"], which as it happens is already nicknamed "The silicon valley of the UK". Comfortably, Reading is already the home of many small unknown companies such as Oracle, Nvidia, Microsoft and Symantec.
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well, except Silicon Glen has kinda collapsed in on itself.
Also this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_with_'Silicon'_names
It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for being subtle.
Do people in the UK regularly sign non-competes? They exist in the US, of course, but I do not know a single person that would ever actually sign one (unless they will pay you full salary while you are off the market).
The problem with trying to create something like this, is I'm not sure that Silicon Valley was 'created' per se.
It seems like it happened because you had a couple of companies (HP for example) who set up shop there, and then other stuff grew around it. I'm not sure you could just go out and say "OK, we'll put a center of innovation and technology here".
It sort of has to grow organically I should think.
I used to work with someone who grew up in what is now Silicon Valley. He said at the time, it was a very not fancy suburb of San Francisco, but that over the years it changed into what it is now, with the crazy real estate prices and everything else to go with it.
It just seems like more of a historical accident than something you can plan for. Sure, you can try to entice people to go there, and possibly even give some perks for doing it. But that doesn't seem like it is going to give you all that much chance of success.
Cities occasionally decide they want to become hubs of this kind of stuff, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to achieve this.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
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The UK certainly does have that. Not necessarily a good thing; but the City proper is home to more financial shenanigans than virtually anywhere else...
It's a recurrent theme in British politics. Look up Harold Wilson's 1963 "White Heat of Technology" speech and the creation of the Ministry of Technology.
Britain within living memory has been a technology leader in aviation, nuclear, computing, Those were largely developments that came out of the war and declined in the face of a dependence on government money for investment (and in the latter case, an unwillingness to admit even to the existence of the technology).
Private investors aren't interested in long-term investments - the "investment banking" industry has become big largely because it's eschewed actual growth-producing investment for complex financial instruments which are essentially a form of privatised taxation.
There is still a lot of high-tech industry (take Rolls Royce aero engines for example), but it survives and grows pretty much in spite of the business environment. It's no accident that Britain's now successful, productive and growing car industry is owned and financed from Japan, Germany and India.
It may be possible to grow IT-based industries in London, but they won't be owned in London and nor will any IP associated with them. And I'm afraid the government is sufficiently clueless about technology that it might actually feel it needs to encourage businesses like those cited by the article ( Instagram, Skype and Groupon) whereas there is probably a lot to be said for actively discouraging them.
Plus, this seems to be all about exempting businesses from paying their normal dues. I'm all in favour of foreigners spending money in London. I'm not in favour of the government giving it back with interest to encourage them.
Yes huge tax breaks attract business. Why does nobody wonder if they shouldn't be that huge to begin with?
Nor do they wonder about the foolish logical conclusion: That high-tax government should rule the entire planet so there is no escape from high taxes and government doesn't have to play that game.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
I'm an employer in the UK but lived in US for 5 years. UK's pretty good for employers really. You have to provide more time off (minimum of 5.5 weeks off per year) but that's offset by not having to provide health insurance. You have to be a bit more careful about firing people (if they've been with you more than a year) than fire-at-will states, but you're less likely to be sued for some random bullshit because people just don't pull that crap as much here. Compared to the rest of Europe -Italy:paperwork and regulations are horrendous, france:everyone is on holiday all the time, hungary: tax doubles your costs, etc.. the UK is very employer friendly.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
how about silicon peat bog? Or just silicon bog?
I thought it was the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_corridor
Your summary of the article is stupid. None of those sentences are quotes. In fact the article states at the end that SVs great weakness is that it's a crap place to live, directly contradicting what you wrote. Here's an actual quote:
Yes, yes it is. Having lived temporarily in the Valley and grown up in the UK, I'm pretty sure I don't want to live along the US-101. I'd do it if there was some really compelling reason, but otherwise no thanks - love the sun, hate the driving. Rents and property prices in London are absurd and most likely still a bubble, but other than that it's not a bad place to live at all.
Your other points (not quotes) are also pretty stupid. There are a ton of well educated people in London, as well as many Brits working for Silicon Valley based companies. The UK has a long history of computer science, you know about Bletchley Park, right? The BBC Micro? The government doesn't deserve any credit for it (the BBC does!) but there were a ton of people growing up in the 80s and 90s who had access to really good computers and lots of educational material about them. It certainly got me started. At 28 I'm now a senior engineer at Google (in Switzerland).
BTW I think it's really great that companies like Amazon, Facebook and the big G have set up shop in London. These companies are great at training people who can then develop the confidence and skills to go do their own companies (Facebook was practically made of ex-Googlers back in the day, don't know if it still is). Especially anything internet related that might scale up fast will benefit a lot from the pool of skilled workers these companies will attract and create.
That's incredibly narrow speech. You make it sound like we have no freedom of speech because we can't threaten the President. That narrow restriction does not only apply to him/her either, but also applies to my neighbor as well.
So aside from some very narrow restrictions on speech, there is a much greater freedom of speech in the US, and you certainly cannot view the UK and the US as equals in that regard.
The UK has more taxes than citizens it seems. There are literally too many mouths to feed for the greedy government folk to give the tax breaks that it'll take for them to draw business into their country.
My previous employer had a non compete clause, but then they were an American company (though they waived it when they moved our dev jobs out of the UK and made us redundant). My current employer (which is British) doesn't, and I don't remember any British company that I worked for having one.
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
You won't get an entire planet of high taxes - some countries will have low taxes to try and screw over other countries.
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
The world is full of urban centres that are trying to emulate the success of Silicon Valley. Ever heard of Silicon Valley North? No, I don't mean San Francisco. It's a term my home town, Ottawa, Canada, has adopted for itself. It's also been applied to Toronto, Vancouver, Waterloo, Calgary, and Montreal. But the truth is that none of them have a decent claim on the title -- they can't touch the real Silicon Valley in terms of scale, depth of expertise or level of innovation.
There's a big barrier to anyone trying to be the new Silicon Valley and it has nothing to do with corporate tax rates or research incentives. Those are all easy to measure and copy. It's the network effect -- the same one that makes eBay, the QWERTY keyboard and Microsoft Office so hard to displace. The smart people want to go to Silicon Valley because that's where the smart people are. After all, being with other smart people is not only more interesting, but more likely to lead to your own success. It's easy to see in a place like Ottawa, where the cream of the tech community are frequent targets for Silicon Valley head-hunters. They go, not (just) for the money, but to be part of that scene.
So good luck East London, but maybe you should have a plan B, just in case.
What about Silicon Fen? Just an hour by train from Liverpool Street or King's Cross, and not likely to launch an independence campaign.
Non-competes aren't necessarily unusual. They are however difficult to enforce.
The courts use awkward terms like "Restraint of Trade" to back individuals' rights to go and get a job.
AFAIK non-compete contracts are not legal in the UK.
It's an incredibly buoyant place, brimming with start-ups clamouring for young, naieve would-be developers to poach.
There are are some pretty big, established firms there too, like ARM.
Why are the politicians obsessed with having everything in London? It's already over-priced and over-crowded. The rest of the UK needs the investment, not Greater London.
Poor engineers can not afford to live and work there (they've been priced out of the market by the bankers and "executive" tyes), nor should they.
Stick Men
The largest problem California cities face is from the excessive costs of public employees, former public employees, and the related pension plans.
That growing segment sometimes acts like a cancer looking to feed itself. Even the the regional impact of large box stores is negative (low wages, usually no health coverage for employees, most goods sold are imported, most profits leave the area), it is common for city managers to seek out such large stores to snatch sales tax revenues away from nearby communities.
California also has the mixed blessing of many (largely illegal) immigrants. Those that have stayed long term (not seasonal workers) are a significant load on education and healhcare services. There are some other hidden costs, like insurance against uninsured drivers.
There are relatively few manufacturers of basic components, with most now from Asia. One has to look pretty hard to find much large scale hardware manufacturing in Silicon Valley. Silicon is used in chips (hardware). Many seek their fortunes in software. For actual manufacturing with the surrounding support industries present, Germany is probably a better model to look at than Silicon Valley.
Of course one could skip the making things part, and just have a community based on takeovers and outsourcing. It's about lunch time here. Care for a virtual hamburger?
Even with proposition 13, city revenues skyrocketed as properties sold at higher and higher prices, making that 1% tax quite substantial. Foolish city managers funded excess growth and large salary increases. They tend to suck up as much revenue as possible. When you've got parasites on a bubble, problems should be expected.
There's no reason to have Highway Patrol at time and a half overtime rates sitting parked by construction crews on the highways. Others could do that job at a tenth of the cost.
Property and gasoline taxes were meant to fund essential productive services like education and highways. Cities shouldn't get either of those. They already get cuts of sales taxes, impose hotel taxes, parking fees, utility taxes, construction permits, and cook up a whole bunch of things they can fine people for. Most of the inflated salaries are going to unproductive functions. Some services would be better handled by volunteers, or contracted out as a sort of temporary limited term working welfare for the unemployed. Even many with disabilities can be given simple maintenance jobs.
A central California community recently was fining homeless for sleeping in their cars. They came up with a plan to allow about 5 to have a place to park at night. The cost for six months? $60,000.
Those people could have a place to live for what the city would spend for (city "public safety" employee supervised) parking spaces.
If the U.K. can create a district focused on manufacturing, supporting, and installing energy producing/saving gear, that might work. It still might need subsidies, or be protected with tariffs on imports, to remain viable. Certain the idea is to improve and maintain the quality of life while having a healthy economy and environment. The cost of living should be kept low. Parasitic funding through things like tax on homes should be kept to a minimum. People and communities should be viable in a largely self-sufficient form. That means avoiding large outflows of revenue for manufacturing or energy, and operations that derive revenue from a community must spend/invest most of that in the same communities. Funding society on debt, and then having most of that wealth sucked off to make a very few extremely rich is not viable in the long term.
It leaves communities sick, and too many unemployed or virtual slaves at a time when technology should have made life better for everyone. If the percentage of government workers owning homes is higher than that of the general population, you've got a parasite infestation.
Some tax incentives for R&D may be healthy, but there must be strong controls to avoid economic leakage (the parasitic/exploitive effects).
How is it for employers in England compared to Germany (don't know much of Germany's labour and business laws etc)? It's the biggest economy in Europe or so I am lead to believe, so it would be interesting to hear about how they fair on that count. Having said Germany is the biggest economy, perhaps that is only in the Eurozone?
And then there is Russia. I have to figure in Russia, the other big economy in Europe (not saying Eurozone), the perspective I've seen says employers can get away with a lot more than here. And if you can pay off the mafia only when you're successful will the oligarcs bother to sue you with trumped up charges aided by the government to steal your company. They say they use the same judges as the ones used to give Pussy Riot a fair trial. Yeah yeah, possibly/probably unfair but that is the perception I get anyway, especially if you are a non-mega-corp foreinger trying to run a company there.
Anyway, how is it for employers in Germany compared to England? Both Eurozone so presumabley similar ground rules for business and labour.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
We have the most vibrant car design and development in the UK - probably in the world. I don't think many would argue? Small volume sport single approval car production, F1, supplier to the US Indie Car business. Morgan (who a Honda CEO said would be one of the last few manufacturers standing in the world - read it somewhere in a Sunday colour supplement magazine).
So what can we learn from that?
I think the least government interference the better. The current round of Pirate Bay banning shows that we are being run by clueless Luddites. I wrote to my MP who copied me the stuff on the judgement in favour of Amstrad when tape to tape was:
a) OK to sell blank tapes
b) OK to manufacture tape to tape devices
c) OK to retail tape to tape devices
I find the ruling on The Pirate Bay laughable. It's like saying we should ban chemistry lessons because.....
Hold on we should ban google and search engines because people can find the Anarchist's Cook Book.
Government involvement - it's the last think the tech industry needs, I wouldn't trust a senior politician to sit on a toilet seat the right way round. I'm sure they start of OK, then just bent with all the money involved.
But then to be fair we had some sanity in the UK on an Apple ruling:
"The decision from Judge Colin Birss means Apple will have to post the notice on its U.K. website for six months, as well as "several newspapers and magazines to correct the damaging impression" that Samsung copied the iPad, according to Bloomberg. The same judge said in a ruling earlier this month that the Samsung Galaxy Tab is not "cool" enough to be mistaken for an iPad." http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/07/18/uk_judge_rules_apple_must_advertise_samsung_did_not_copy_the_ipad.html
Only in America could the iPad/iPhone not be accepted as a prior art. It should have never had gone to a jury. I think it will result in Apple being broken up under the Sherman AntiTrust Act 1929.
Government / Technology - what a laugh unless you count the UK's Trident programme and it's replacement - then it's solid employment for the middle class on the surfdom of everyone else.
That's "Siliconionium" to you, pal
Yea, that's exactly what we need, let's just finish the corporate buyout of our government and go from a corporate controlled government to a pure corporate government...
You ignorant shit. Teeth are not naturally white. Just because you damage your teeth by painting them (or scratching the protective cover off them) every day doesn't make our dentists shit.
It means we spend less on cosmetic surgery than you.
Hey, that's fine. I have no issue with you spending your disposal income on worthless vanity. But please, don't go pretending it makes you any better than people with a more mature outlook on life.
People are not an unlimited source of free money either which is why they forced that proposition thing through.
Of course, huge corporate tax breaks are not much good if you tax the population so much that the high cost of living means the companies have to pay higher wages, causing them to leave in droves for Texas and elsewhere (I can look out my window and see the "Nissan of America" building, previously headquartered in California).
The M4 corridor/Thames Valley took off because of its proximity to Heathrow, and as such is very good for UK bases of large multinationals, but doesn't have the start-up culture that makes SF. That's what the work in Shoreditch is about. I've taken a few trips down there for various events and they've certainly got all the ingredients to make something great, but I presume all the other (failed) attempts at replicating Silicon Valley have too. Personally I hope they pull it off, but I remain cautiously optimistic.
Meaning of Life.
That was my initial thought as well... Of the places I'd consider moving, England (GB), Australia and New York City are close to the bottom of those I'd even think about simply because of the restrictions you mention... I'd be more inclined to go to a country where the Pirate Party has EU representation... for the most part, I'd consider Scandinavian countries, Iceland and Ireland (proper)... Everyone else seems to be in a race to the bottom.
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
Silicon Ben? Location is obvious.
I wish I could mod this "-1, Funny".
Just skip down to Munich
Anyway, how is it for employers in Germany compared to England? Both Eurozone so presumabley similar ground rules for business and labour.
England (and the rest of the UK) is not in the Eurozone. We're in the EU, but we do not use the euro.
My understanding is that Germany tends to take employee involvement more seriously (so you get works councils and the like) but people are generally on lower wages.
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
Countries from America to India have their fair share of excellent software engineers. Britain has a fair few excellent computer scientists.
But England has fuck all in the way of good software engineers.
We do pissant, easily outsourceable work - which is routinely outsourced.
British software engineers tend to be very uninterested in their discipline, i.e. engineering. They're either geeks who enjoy hacking or low level business types who just want a good job. And the ones who did well at university (who hasn't?) tend to be cunts about it, thinking this entitles them to respect even when they've not coded for shit in the real world.
And I say this as an British ex-software engineer who found that British engineers - but not foreigners coming to work in Britain - were often quite disappointing to work with. I don't often tip my hat to the American way, but US software engineering ethos is far nicer.
Not if they form a single planetary government, they won't.
Then the answer is "no."
But you won't get a single planetary government - some faction (or even multiple factions) will break out and try to screw over the rest.
They can't even manage to get regional government working - they don't have an ice cubes chance in hell at getting world government up and running.
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
Repeat the hollywood success story : make a zone where innovation is not hindered by patents.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
In India
Sure they can, with a giant military to destroy anyone who resists. That's how empires work.
Of course, this isn't likely to happen any time soon, since there's too many competing factions at the moment which are too powerful for any one faction to take over everything. But factionalism doesn't have to be a problem with regional governments; just look at China: you think they have any problems with factions trying to break away? Of course not, they just send in the PLA and crush them.
But yes, in a hypothetical future where we don't have empires trying to take over everything and crush dissenters, and things are mostly based on democracy and voluntary cooperation, I don't see how a planetary government is remotely possible. The Europeans can't even manage to cooperate with each other enough to maintain a loose union with a shared currency, and they have far fewer differences amongst themselves than they do with far away countries like China or countries in the middle east or Africa.
Ireland's doing a damn site better than it was before the tech boom.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
No, it's not common and the courts take a dim view. If any term in a no-compete is considered overly strict the court will just null they entire thing (they cannot reduce it to a reasonable level).
Anyway they've shot themselves in the foot by trying to make everything short term contracts. Nobody signs up for 6 months with the prospect of limiting what they can do in the following 6 months. I resent contracts anyway, way to build a committed employee-employer relationship there guys :/
Even if someone did have a no-compete, unless they were a senior manager or something I can't imagine a company bothering to try and enforce it.
I'm with El Reg on this one...
Silicon Roundabout
Net vs gross.
Speaking in as computer scientist from London, and having worked at several unsuccessful start ups, watched others in similar start ups based in the UK and who have friends in the EU who are at successful start-ups, the one anecdotal piece of advise I have is this - Don't let public school 'boys' anywhere near your c-suite. They can't fathom how to work in a cooperative manner, and only see relationships in terms of being beneath or above. They tend to hire old school 'chums' instead of talent and lack creative ability. The only good thing they are good at is bring in investment, which is a bloody shame.
But where is a military large enough to crush all dissent planet wide going to come from? How would it be paid for?
Also, unlike Tibet with China, some of those factions have nukes (and lots of them). There's not much point in having dominion over a dead planet.
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
If any term in a no-compete is considered overly strict the court will just null they entire thing (they cannot reduce it to a reasonable level).
Posting AC for obvious reasons...
My current (US based) employer had me sign a non-compete when I was hired. I was a bit turned off, but it's been almost a year and I can honestly see why they did so now that I have heard all stories from previous developers who jumped ship, stole clients (some I am sure you've heard of), and moved across the street.
The one I signed stated something along the lines of a 50 mile radius being the area included, I don't recall. I thought that was a bit silly, considering that would require me to move if I wanted to change jobs.
A few months ago, there was a frivolous lawsuit brought against us by a former client that was backed by the developers that left and moved across the street. We won the case, but soon afterwards the official employment contract was amended to reduce the non-compete down to a 5 mile radius.
I am guessing the reason why was because the previous contract signed by the developers who left was not enforceable in court.
Fortunately, and especially is this niche of industry, developers are often quite incompetent at what they do, and we are routinely awarded new clients based on the fact that their previous developers built nothing but a shit product. Of course this means I inherit a lot of garbage, but it certainly keeps me busy enough.
Obviously, this line of reasoning isn't entirely serious, but I think the idea is that the main (nuclear) powers would join together into some kind of imperial alliance or union. Then, combined, their militaries could easily crush all the dissenters. So if the USA, Russia, and China all joined together into the new USSAC Empire, they'd be able to rule over everyone else, and there's not much the other nations would be able to do about it.
I beg you please, never associate that catholic (having converted after leaving office because in the UK a Prime Minister cannot be catholic (I think they should ban anyone religious to be honest)) sociopath with the British nation. As someone who forgot to vote that time, I am sorry. Sorry for any incoherence, awake for the last 48 hours.
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
Even if you ignore the regulations and health and safety laws. People just don't have the same attitude. I think that scares away people who can go anywhere in the world with their skills and it's just hard to find the right people.
Plus everything revolves around London. London is expensive, dirty and not always a joy to be in. Compare that to working in California (before factoring anything else) and which would you rather work in?
Kinda happening. Boston would be the other location.
In the UK they actually are providing "tax credits" - temporary low tax rates for businesses setting up and hiring in high unemployement areas.
Thing is, the "Silicon Roundabout" - what a pathetic name - is in one of those zones, "subject to contract" - they're looking to create the tech equivalent of the city/canary wharf for finance, mayfair for hedgefunds and soho/fitzrovia for fashion.
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
i think i prefer Siliconne Valle
insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
They're actually being sensible about it for a change. Tax breaks (temporary subsidies) on firms being located and hiring in areas of high unemployment if they employ a certain number of people in the region (similar to what happened in 1993/94 that helped the UK massively). The current government has done some idiotic things in the past, but thankfully they are acting well now, and know how to create a budget surplus given time (yes, it takes time!)
Let's see how much shit I get for this
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
#! /sausage/mershedperterters
echo silicon valley
insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
But there are two big problems with a USSAC Empire -
1) Of countries most likely to stab each other in the back, the US, Russia and China top the list.
2) Both the US and Russia/USSR more or less failed at containing Afghanistan. If they can't contain a forsaken country like that, I don't see what hope they have of conquering the entire planet, even in the highly unlikely event that they pooled their resources. They could probably get away with pushing Europe around, but I think the rest of the planet would give them a lot of trouble.
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
Even though you are right to support the above AC your tone isn't helpful to any sort of discussion. Let me add to the flame - modders of the GP are people who... benifit? from the excessive spending in Califor-na-yay...
Control your Police, control your Fire Department and control your Prisons. Most of all control your lawyers, the healthcare system can't take it.
Control your lawyers and you control your ridiculous insurance costs. How much of medical care costs are the cost of insurance to protect the doctors from their very patients?
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
Innocent until proven guilty? Guilty until proven innocent?
Perp walk, most civilised countries BAN press coverage of a case until a fair trial has had a chance to run.
I'm sorry, but for me that is a crime by a nation against itself
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
Patents.. the things that other people apply for when they think of something that has also occured to me one time in a drunken stupour, and I have subsequently resigned myself to let someone else worry about it :)
You might consider Poland, Latvia, Switzerland and my other for other reasons. The Swiss Franc is too strong against the Euro (and also the dollar, which is helping bolster that)
Pirate Bay countries? Seriously? In Europe? Scandinavia is going to suffer massively in coming years (too strong a currency other than Finland where the biggest employer (Nokia) is going bust)...
There are plenty of places you can go, Middle East, Eastern Europe, parts of the Middle East, Hong Kong, Singapore (of course you would have to give up US citizenship to avoid double taxation in low tax jurisdictions).
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
1) If they get a single cabal running them all, that probably won't be a problem any more.
2) more brutal methods could be used for containing Afghanistan, if it's really that important anyway. Once they have a single, evil empire set up, they won't have to worry much about public opinion or human rights.
Slightly out of date data, but yes, Ireland is back to growing having taken a hit.
Opportunist - It never meant to be the FINANCIAL centre of europe, but the BUSINESS centre (that is how it is spelled).
Different mistakes. But mistakes on both sides.
I am very sucseptible to "let's have another drink"
Hate to break it to you, but the valley is pretty much just sales offices for Chinese, Taiwanese and Korean companies now.
Why would the UK want to re-create that??
Maurice W. Hilarius Voice: (778) 347-9907
What the fuck has the empire got to do with anything? Do you really think the average man in the street actually wants us to own india? Or that some pirate thugs represent us as a country? Or are you hung up on the 'redcoats'?
The car industry? Thats doomed mate, welcome to the long game :)
geisha is japanese... you know, that place that makes a robot that makes a cup of tea when it wants tea :)
In the US; you can be arrested for making threats.
In the UK; you can be arrested for making not only threats, but opinions deemed as hate speech.
There is a massive difference between the US and the UK (and much of the world for that matter) when it comes to freedom of speech.
Life is not for the lazy.
You both read Slashdot too much; it's given you an extraordinarily distorted view of the UK.
The US felt less free to me -- just as many cameras in the cities (except on public transport, which no one cares about), signs in public spaces listing what's forbidden, armed police, and an invasive search when I left.
At least in the UK there are people trying to do something about it, rather than alternating between refusing to recognise the problem and pointing at another country and saying "but X is worse!".
As a Brit, I vouch for the cheapness and availability of German beer..
How do you guys get any work done? hic..
Gott mit uns!
I don't see why you think the people are unlikely to want to work in a city. There are already start-ups in London, and similar companies (Google, Mozilla, Yahoo!).
The UK is pro-privacy, compared to the US, and similar to the EU. The libel laws are odd; if you're that worried about the cameras you've read Slashdot too much.
London has 8 million people, they're not all bankers. But note that there are a *lot* of start-ups working for the financial industry -- I've been to conferences in London and been surprised how many people had made something cool and sold the service to a bank. You need business people anyway (investors, people who can make the company work).
London doesn't attract people with its weather (although it rains less here than you probably think, check a rainfall map). London attracts people with culture, something California lacks.
http://siliconmilkroundabout.com/companies
Sadly, it will never work - for much the same reason that most all of Europe is in a recession there seems to be no end to. Europeans dont like to work or put in the long hours that it takes to make startups happen. Even worse, the governments have laws that prevent people from working late in most European countries! Added to which, most people want contracts and if you dont give them a contract you can get fined or go to jail... and most contracts put the companys owners on the line for back pay and 'built in pensions' and so on, so if your startup doesnt work then you cant file bankruptcy etc you end up having to pay every one off. Its the worst possible place to try and make a startup happen... the old school economics of Europe as a whole only support large companys.
Shitty people
If your starting premise is actually true, then the UK gets what it deserves, no?
In my experience, in fact most people I know in the UK are not shitty, so the reason the place is so far up shit creek is a bit harder to figure out.
Its a state thing.
Some states allow them (I think MA), CA doesn't. (I only said MA, because I was acquired by a MA-based company and the contracts had non-compete clauses. That company did have a history of enforcing them - but since in CA they are against "public policy" and can't be enforced.
It has nothing to do with being a manager, it makes it hard to do start-ups since it becomes harder to prove the investors levels of paranoia that your bright idea isn't owned by your ex or current employer.
but you can abstract out what is essential to Al Gore, and recreate that in a logical construct known as an AlGorithm
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
But where is a military large enough to crush all dissent planet wide going to come from? How would it be paid for?
From the source that empires have always used for such things. Themselves.
Also, unlike Tibet with China, some of those factions have nukes (and lots of them). There's not much point in having dominion over a dead planet.
Unless, of course, the empire's core consists of the nuke-wielding factions. For example, a sci fi example was the so-called "CoDominium" where the US and a "revitalized USSR" (according to Wikipedia) had united to exclude everyone else from having nuclear weapons. They enforced this with the threat of nuclear weapons. I gather the other nuclear powers were disarmed under threat of obliteration.
Then there's the three stable totalitarian empires of 1984 which used eternal war as one of their many tools for controlling their populace.
Frankly, I don't see the world as being qualitatively different enough that empire building couldn't be as effective in 2020 AD as it was in 1 AD (to give a historical era where most of the known world was covered with four empires.
The Soviets could have kept Afghanistan under control if it weren't for someone giving them weapons...
Most the wars since the bomb have been like this, so it's hard to say. (since both sides would be united in this hypothetical, so no proxy wars of superpowers).
... there are already plenty of "Silicon-something" on the map in many countries, but then, there is only one Silicon Valley
... I'll give you guys a link, to what I said before, about Silicon Valley and the many copycats
I do not like to repeat myself, so
http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3017561&cid=40837297
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
The point is that the guy who was "arrested for a tweet" was actually making threatening statements. The GGP was suggesting that the UK is the only country where making threatening statements is considered reason to arrest.
I'd consider Scandinavian countries,
Taxes are pretty high. So are typical wages. Makes getting a startup started harder.
Iceland and Ireland (proper).
Better - good choices from a business point of view anyway.
Although the issues perceived in Britain are exaggerated somewhat.
Number of cameras in London isn't any different from any other city. The report that everyone quotes used ridiculous extrapolation assuming that a major high street was typical.
And most of those were privately owned. Do you live in a country where shops and banks don't use security cameras?
Libel laws are being rewritten.
We do have a good source of Science educated people. It's called Sweden. Seriously, although science education in the UK isn't all it could be, the main problem is that not enough people are going into science. The UK is a big place though, so a realtvely small percentage still means a lot of trained scientists and engineers, and there's all of Europe to pick from.
And for some reason London is a popular place to live. I'm not a huge fan but it clearly has something.
It's a state of mind.
As part of the Bay Area, it includes the universities Stanford and Berkeley- polar opposites yet both a hotbed of creative entrepreneurial talent. It includes San Francisco, another hotbed of creative (artistic) talent. Even the general population is innovative, eccentric and usually fun to be around. All this has been building up to a crescendo since the days of Mark Twain.
Boston is competitive, again because of the talent drawn to its fine universities and money poured in by alumni. Seattle has Microsoft, Costco, Boeing, Starbucks and a few other businesses and a good university which makes it reasonably competitive.
I'm not familiar with East London- how does it compare in talent & resources?
...omphaloskepsis often...
Sorry, my post wasn't fit for an international audience. Silicon Fen already exists, has for some time, and is the home of one or two well-known companies (most notably ARM).
BTW Silicon Ben is less obvious than you might think, because it's also a common prefix in the names of Scottish mountains.
. Once they have a single, evil empire set up, they won't have to worry much about public opinion or human rights.
You say that as if any of them are worrying about it right now.
Clearly they taught water-brained economics where you live, since the high cost of living decreases the supply of workers willing to work for a lower wage, thus driving up the equilibrium wage.
Perp walk, most civilised countries BAN press coverage of a case until a fair trial has had a chance to run.
So most "civilised countries" have less freedom of speech, which was your parent's point.
To be blunt, the Silicon roundabout area has exploded in the last 5 years without government 'help'. RedMonk now estimate over 3000 tech related start-ups in the area (and the area is geographically small). Government wants to help? They should pretty much stay out of the way, excepting helping create more space for this environment to flourish in. The local council recently rejected a bid to renovate a derelict building into a tech start-up campus and community space with major ties to the local community (high school kids from the more deprived side of the area). It would've been nice if the government had supported that sort of initiative.
Well British courts laughed Apple out of court and told them to publicly state on their website that Samsung did not infringe their rectangles with rounded corners patent, so that's a start.
We've had mixed success with other things, the founder of OiNK, a file sharing site got away with it completely free in court suggesting that such linking sites are legit, though recently another site's owner got convicted so it's not entirely consistent yet.
Both the US and Russia/USSR more or less failed at containing Afghanistan.
But Afghanistan never had warlike intentions towards other countries in the first place. It's just situated at an unfortunate geographical point that allows it to be used as a conduit by other countries.
Containment is what you would have wanted to do with Hitler.
The whole post 9/11 justification for "containing the al Qaeda threat" from Afghanistan has always been nonsense.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
But Afghanistan never had warlike intentions towards other countries in the first place.
Which is irrelevant for the discussion at hand. I would assume that most countries invaded by a theoretical combined US, Russian and Chinese army in a quest to create a single planet wide totalitarian government would never have had warlike intentions either.
Have you actually read the complete thread?
At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
Most of the Hoxton "silicon roundabout" types are just wankers who've done a media studies and web design course at college.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
The weather in the UK is awful more often than not.
It's a fuck sight worse in most of the US (for example). We don't get winters with twenty or thirty degrees of frost, summer heatwaves over forty celsius that kill old people and droughts that wipe out crops, hurricanes, tornadoes or major floods.
And the nanny state tendencies of the wonderfully fascist UK government
Get your ridiculous right wing political nursery-level cliches right. The good thing about the UK is its remnants of socialism, the bad thing is its adoption of US political values (e.g. cutting taxes for rich fucktards).
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
I'd consider Scandinavian countries,
Taxes are pretty high. So are typical wages. Makes getting a startup started harder.
Why? You only get taxed if you make a profit, and you only pay wages (to other people) once you are big enough that you can justify them, by which stage you should be making a profit.
Unless you want to rely on rich kids or retards, I don't see that you're ever going to have a startup employing people for very low or no wages.
This sort of "red tape and government interference is stopping me from starting up my own business" talk is just right wing bollocks.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Freedom of speech is, like any freedom, a matter of utility, or the greater good of the greater number of people.
Whatever people from the US may think, there is no such thing as a god-given right to anything. If society deems that something is unacceptable to the extent that it is a punishable crime, then your freedom to do that thing is curtailed. There is no absolute freedom to murder gay people (or whoever) because you disapprove of them, and in most civilised countries there is no absolute freedom to encourage others to do the same.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
...because in the UK a Prime Minister cannot be catholic...
That is not true. It has never happened that a PM has been Catholic and it used to be impossible because of the oath that any MP would have to swear, but that was changed in 1829. The PM appoints the Archbishop of Cantebury so that would be a problem, but it is clearly stated that in the event of a Catholic Prime Minister, another minister would be make that appointment.
Get off my lawn.
More relevantly, funding of tech in the UK avoids anything that might actually exist. It is a giant Ponzi scheme. Real inventions/engineering are aplenty in the UK, but no one will fund them because "Ponzi schemes are more profitable in the short term".
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
Foreign culture via the TV. Oh yes, we know that only too well.
This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
The US is still worrying a little about these things, but not much.
Funnily enough, swap UK for USA (or wherever trollboy vinny is from) and it also works.
with my HR hat on not very common in the UK - I have never signed one.
Non competes much less common than in the USA and about as enforceable as CA. Some very very senior finance types in the city have them but you do have to be paid for gardeneing leave.
Um the Scandinavian countries are extramly! conformist and any one who doesn't fit in gets a much harder time than in the US or UK. Sweden was sterilizing children in care in for eugenics reasons up till the 70's for example.
Ireland is a basket case ala spain and greace.
Definitely Yes.
Here is a Montreal Quebec Canada Story. The city had an old broken down waterfront area that used to house manufacturing. Together with some developers, with the government (provincial and federal), the took three city blocks square, and deemed it the IT square. They installed high speed fibre lines in the older buildings, temporarily, provided cheap rents, and so forth.
Over time, they demolished and rebuilt new high tech buildings in that kilometer squared area. Some companies took entire floors, some an office, and some a bit more than a cubicle (shared office).
Over time, all the buildings were replaced as new. Interestingly enough, neighboring buildings were demolished, and condominium apartments were built in their place. Many heritage buildings were kept, but converted to condos.
The IT center outgrew that area, but spread to adjoining areas or took buildings not too far away. (Erricson, Ubisoft, etc. etc.) Good development premises resulted in attracting talent to Montreal. BTW, headhunters also got a small office in the Square Kilometer.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
It's the monarch that can't be a left-footed bead-jiggling papist.
Though certain PMs apparently got confused over the distinction themsleves.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Around 2%, IIRC.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
You have been wholly pwned.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
from bankers
All cows eat grass!
It's a two party state. It's overwhelming Democratic due to Los Angeles and the Bay Area. San Diego is sort of split and the Central Valley and Orange Country are Republican. The end result is that both houses of the California Legislature tend to have about 35% Republican Representation.
And it's not moderate Republican either, since California tends to polarize both parties.