Windows 8 Is 'a Work of Art.' But It's No Linux

colinneagle writes "Earlier this week I installed the final version of Windows 8. And it is awesome. That's not a joke. Windows 8 is absolutely, unequivocally stellar. And yet, at the end of the day, I am right back to using Linux. Why is that? What is it about Linux that makes me so excited to use it — even while enjoying another operating system that I view as, in all seriousness, a work of art? Why do I not simply install Windows 8 on every machine I own and be happy with it? For me, it's the ability to slowly chip away and remove items from your user interface until you are left with only want you want, and nothing more. The option of looking at an item on the screen, right clicking on it, and declaring to said item 'Listen up, mister Thing-On-My-Screen. I don't want you anymore. Be gone!' Panels, bars, docks, launchers, widgets, gadgets – whatever is on your screen, there is probably a way to send it to whatever form of the afterlife is reserved for unwanted Desktop Crud. And, I'll tell you this right now – as great as it is, you don't find a whole lot of 'Right click, Remove Panel' in Windows 8."

Comments

A Review?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't visit a news site for opinion pieces.

Re:A Review?

[Sir_Sri]

Especially not one as bizarre as this.

The definitive feature of linux is being able to right click and remove a panel... good for it? That wouldn't even be a feature on windows, it would be a disaster, because my 70 year old aunt would accidentally remove something important, not be sure what it was, and call me to find out how to fix it. All the people in my office would remove things, want them back, and not be able to find them. Etc.

You can have an opinion piece that makes some sort of interesting argument about why this feature really changes the computing experience, and how its absence in windows renders the OS unworthy to use, ok, that could actually be interesting. But TFA spends 3/4ths of its length on superficial discussions of things - and the places where a serious and sensible discussion could be made are given no real treatment.

TFA sort of ends on what he should have started with - the different philosophies between linux and windows 8 - that could have made for a very interesting opinion piece that would have been worth posting on /. But it's not there.

Re:A Review?

[Missing.Matter]

TFA sort of ends on what he should have started with - the different philosophies between linux and windows 8 - that could have made for a very interesting opinion piece that would have been worth posting on /. But it's not there.

That's because a rational discussion on the philosophical and design approaches of different user interfaces is not troll clickbait. The purpose of this article is to drive as many people here to flame about how Windows 8 is terrible and ugly and the worst OS in the world. And what do you know, take a look at first 5 posts below this one and you'll see exactly that.

Re:A Review?

[cpu6502]

>>>That wouldn't even be a feature on windows, it would be a disaster, because my 70 year old aunt would accidentally remove something important

Strange..... I've been right-clocking and removing shit off my Windows for years. My XP and Seven desktops are completely blank (except for the start button). I'm not sure where either you or the /. reviewer got the idea you cannot remove things from the Windows desktop.

And yeah Windows 8 may be a work of art (pretty to look at), but I'd really like to get some actual Work accomplished thank you very much The digital equivalent of T&A doesn't let me do that. It slows me down and makes me want to switch to a OS for offices like Seven.

Re:A Review?

[DeTech]

Especially not one as bizarre as this.

The definitive feature of linux is being able to right click and remove a panel... good for it? That wouldn't even be a feature on windows, it would be a disaster, because my 70 year old aunt would accidentally remove something important, not be sure what it was, and call me to find out how to fix it.

And this is why we can't have nice things. Do we design a WRX for your nanna? thankfully no. For her needs the '91 dodge spirit fits just right.

Re:A Review?

[gl4ss]

it was just a really long winded way of saying that if you want to customize -pretty much at all, even how big the window is- then metro apps ain't for you.

Re:A Review?

[Sir_Sri]

Depends on what you mean by remove. You can't just remove the start menu in windows 7 trivially if you don't like it. That would be a disaster. Being able to remove icons is different than being able to remove UI elements. Windows (pre windows 8) basically has 3 UI elements on the desktop, the start button, the taskbar and the desktop itself. Being able to remove any one of those would be very strange. It's bad enough that you can actually move the task bar and start menu in windows by dragging it if it's configured a particular way.

I guess it can have gadgets too, and you can remove those - but they're glorified icons. With windows 8 you can remove live tiles, but you can't really remove 'metro' or the traditional desktop (even if removing one of those would be a really really good idea).

With everything pre-windows 8 you can remove everything down to a very minimal set of elements, which is the set you start with. You can't remove any of those - and nor should you - was my point. You can remove links to things like the control panel and so on, but you can't actually do that trivially, which again, is good - there's a customization menu that lets you, but I can't find a way to mash some buttons and remove the 'control panel' link from my start menu for example.

Re:A Review?

[Zero__Kelvin]

"The definitive feature of linux is being able to right click and remove a panel... good for it? That wouldn't even be a feature on windows, it would be a disaster, because my 70 year old aunt would accidentally remove something important, not be sure what it was, and call me to find out how to fix it."

Unless of course you actually knew what you were doing and locked the panel and/or made the appropriate config files read only.

Re:A Review?

[Blakey Rat]

That wouldn't even be a feature on windows, it would be a disaster, because my 70 year old aunt would accidentally remove something important, not be sure what it was, and call me to find out how to fix it.

Remember those couple versions of Office that had "everything is a toolbar, even the menus"? And users would accidentally either drag their menu bar out-of-position or manage to hide it? And there was no trivial way to get them back?

It was an unmitigated disaster.

So yes, I agree with you 100%. There's nothing wrong with customizability, but a lot of time it impacts usability.

Re:A Review?

[leromarinvit]

That's because a rational discussion on the philosophical and design approaches of different user interfaces is not troll clickbait. The purpose of this article is to drive as many people here to flame about how Windows 8 is terrible and ugly and the worst OS in the world. And what do you know, take a look at first 5 posts below this one and you'll see exactly that.

Then it's a good thing we don't RTFA here. Slashdot - sticking it to greedy publishers since 1997!

Re:A Review?

[slapout]

You've never had your aunt run into the "There are unused icons on your desktop" message have you?

Re:A Review?

[justforgetme]

Well, they aren't going to get flames from me, I love windows 8. Of course my opinion might change if I actually would have to use it instead of just install another OS over it. :-P

Seriously though, I believe win 8 is good work. Some idiot in Redmond decided that it was a good idea to unify both the touch interface and the desktop interface into one experience and for the biggest part of it they didn't do a half bad job. Still that is little praise if you consider that a goo job would still result in a revolting abomination but you can't scold the builders for the idiocy of the architect.

Anyway. Microsoft did a good job. Apple hasn't been doing so bad either and even gnome is brilliant out of the box atm.
Really it's a win whatever you might choose right now. Seriously though all the hate that is going around at the moment regarding win8 is at best Neophobia.

Re:A Review?

[aliquis]

Especially not one as bizarre as this.

Yeah, and Windows may eventually let him say "I don't like this" about his Linux partitions and remove them.

That's some of the power and configuration about their machines which make Windows users happy.

Re:A Review?

[hambone142]

Why not admit you wouldn't be a good interviewer for a Windows technical interview and refer the job to someone more-knowledgeable of the subject?

Re:A Review?

[Eponymous Hero]

It's bad enough that you can actually move the task bar and start menu in windows by dragging it if it's configured a particular way.

why is that bad?

Re:A Review?

[sjames]

And yet, here you are :-)

Re:A Review?

[Sir_Sri]

Oh god.... don't remind me.

Lots of people use their desktops to store bookmarks rather than to start programs. those people are going to be screwed by windows 8. It's wrong to use the desktop to link to bookmarks - but they do it anyway.

Re:A Review?

[Sir_Sri]

Every car is supposed to have standard spacing on pedals so that anyone can put their feet in the right place on the car.

Do we design a WRX for your nanna?

Quite a lot of it actually yes, it is. Airbags, lights, wipers steering wheel position, pedal position etc. Just like every other car, that's sort of the gist of standardization. There are also a lot more cars than there are operating systems, so it's a slightly unfair comparison though.

Windows is the operating system the masses use, it needs to be designed with that in mind, or it's going to cause no end of grief.

Linux is an operating system for people who can read, and are inclined to do so. Windows, not so much.

Re:A Review?

[Sir_Sri]

You're assuming I set up her machine. If I did that for every person who calls me for help I'd have a job being an IT monkey, not being a scientist.

Re:A Review?

[sjames]

Funny thing, my Mom (nearly 70) uses an Ubuntu machine I set up for her to do browsing, email, and Mahjong and has never screwed it up.

The philosophical discussion is there, you're just overlooking it. The point is that Linux is fully modular (right down to the kernel). Don't like it? Remove it. That goes for the entire GUI system if you want, strip it ALL out and it will happily keep working. In extreme cases, you can strip out the entire userspace. Just stick your own app in as init in the initrd and be happy.

In Linux there is no sense of having anything crammed down your throat. If you don't like something, it's outta there, no questions asked.

The flip side is that there is nothing there that can get in the way of whatever you DO want on the system.

Re:A Review?

[Pf0tzenpfritz]

You're probably right. On the other hand - if we had had more rational-or-not discussions about Gnome 3, the Linux desktop might be in a less desolate state than it is now.

Re:A Review?

[Eponymous Hero]

i thought that might be it. you know that after you drag it somewhere else you can lock it so it can't be dragged again until you unlock it?

Re:A Review?

[just_a_monkey]

Remember those couple versions of Office that had "everything is a toolbar, even the menus"?

I still have those. (But today the toolbar is called "ribbon", and you can't add or remove or move the buttons. Yay, progress.)

Re:A Review?

[aardvarkjoe]

The definitive feature of linux is being able to right click and remove a panel... good for it?

Hey, I for one was intrigued to discover that I'm apparently not using Linux. I guess I'm using some cheap chinese knockoff that doesn't include the "right-click to remove panel" feature.

Re:A Review?

[icebike]

Seriously though, I believe win 8 is good work. Some idiot in Redmond decided that it was a good idea to unify both the touch interface and the desktop interface into one experience and for the biggest part of it they didn't do a half bad job.

This is fine, IFF you have a touch screen. But baring that, the interface is just an outright non-starter.

Even with a touch screen, scrolling like a whirling dervish trying to find the pane that contains the application you want is just inefficient,
a huge waste of energy (and one that gets more wasteful as your screen gets larger).

The start bar and application menu that every desktop OS had wasn't developed and perfected over the years on a whim. Windows 8 desktop was.

Re:A Review?

[Sir_Sri]

again, what I know, and what the 200 people in my office who call me for support help know are not the same thing.

Confusing them wastes my time, your time if you're an IT guy, and makes the operating system hard to use.

Yes, it *can* be configured to not be draggable - a competent IT guy who's deploying it should know that option should be set by default. But it doesn't help home users, or people who are now panicing because they think they broke it. The vast majority of windows users are stupid, windows needs to be designed for that. Most windows users are smart enough to know they don't know anything, and don't even try and use linux - because linux is, as I say, for people who can read and are inclined to do so.

Re:A Review?

[Sir_Sri]

It's not a matter of being smart, it's having a job that isn't to be IT, and wasting IT's time with problems that shouldn't exist is the fault of bad OS designers.

Re:A Review?

[icebike]

i thought that might be it. you know that after you drag it somewhere else you can lock it so it can't be dragged again until you unlock it?

I'm sure he does know that. But does your Grandmother?

Most of us here have had to talk barely computer literate friends, customers, and family members through the task of recovering task bars that users dragged to oddball places, shrunk down to nothing or perhaps hidden, after shrinking and dragging.

Its a configuration option that was never really worth having, even for those of us who generally like configurability.(And of course the mess you can get into with taskbars and panels on KDE can be even worse, but I digress).

Re:A Review?

[justforgetme]

One very insightful thing:

Scrolling
Did anybody notice how the metro interface is generally horizontally scrolling?

What I perceived in a tablet try out was that while vertical scrolling is very easy and comfortable (you an have both your hands on the device and still scroll perfectly fine), horizontal scrolling, mostly due to the UX mandated device bezels and human anatomy, is much more difficult to do since you get roughly a third of the area of responsive screen real estate, unless you keep one hand free and we all know what that means..

Re:A Review?

[Sir_Sri]

Depends on how in depth you think the philosophical discussion goes. 3/4ths or more like 90% of the article is making a point, and then dismissing it as not really relevant, his one point leaves his entire philosophical discussion as:

That’s really part of the design philosophy behind so much great Linux-specific software. “Don’t want it? Just remove it.” And I love that. So very, very much.

Every other point he makes he glosses over as a 'well, open source is nice, but I have closed source too', 'the package management is nice, but not important' 'file copy looks nice, but isn't important'

Distros etc. he literally dismisses them all as not really central to the linux experience (in one paragraph he hits several topics).

None of those points are wrong, but the one point he did make, he didn't actually discuss or flesh out.

The philosophical discussion is there, you're just overlooking it

No, it really isn't. You and I both see that there's a philosophical discussion there - and we have both in comments here expanded far more on the philosophical question than the TFA did. That we can trivially do that in a comment box is why TFA in question isn't suitable for posting on /..

My 33 year old GF has a linux box and regularly mashes some buttons (or her cat mashes some buttons) and I have to go save her from a screen that's way too zoomed in, or something doesn't have a package in a repository she needs or whatever. You mom might be really good at not button mashing, you might have very tightly locked down what she can do - my point is that windows should be in that locked down state completely out of the box for a home installation because most users only want to do browsing, e-mail and Mahjong and by default letting them easily mess up the settings that let them do those 3 things wouldn't be a feature in windows.

Re:A Review?

[icebike]

Yup, its a problem on touch screens.
Scrolling with a thumb at the edge of a screen is pretty natural. Swiping across your work space puts you hand in your vision for much of the time, and increases the area that you need to wipe clean every half hour.

And reaching across you keyboard to do this on a touch screen laptop is even more of a mess.

Re:A Review?

[hairyfeet]

So its just another 2 minutes of hate? Meh if you want that OSNews as an epic flamewar happening called what killed the Linux desktop that is at 165 and climbing by the second. The sad part is the things the guy is pointing out, distros not being compatible, constant futzing making it impossible for third party software to find a home, busted drivers, its the same stuff guys like me have been pointing out for years.

Look its really simple folks, does Win 8 Metro suck big hairy balls? Yes, yes it does, which is why there have been so many articles pointing out what a disaster it is. Will that help Linux gain even 1/2 of 1% share? Not a chance in hell because it takes less than 3 minutes with Google to kill metro dead and its even free. You've got Classic Shell, You've got Start8, hell if you are really picky and don't even want the Win 7 UI pay a whole $30 and Astonshell will let you turn the Windows UI into any damned UI you like, even KDE 3 or Gnome 2.

Linux has its niches but those niches will NEVER be the desktop. Its good on servers where the insane cost of Windows CALs make it a better option, great for embedded and HPC because you're not dealing with drivers and can strip the living hell out of it to leave more cycles for your apps, but for desktops it HAS to be simple, easy, and work for years and years with little to no thought required. I'm sorry but that ain't Linux folks, never has been, never will be, and that is how the devs like it so that's that.

Re:A Review?

[sjames]

I'll agree that he could have stood to present the idea more clearly and certainly could have fleshed it out better.

As for locking down, the problem with Windows is that locked down isn't just the default, it's the only choice. Linux can be locked down for my mom and wide open for me. Windows is just plain locked down. Nobody can strip it down or mix and match. Nobody can replace the GUI (yes, there is some ability to paste over parts of it, but not actually rip out and replace). I can't comment on 8 since I have only seen screenshots, but in other windows it appears that in spite of the lock downs, there's still plenty of opportunities for the end user to screw things up in such a way that they don't know how to get back to something reasonable.

Re:A Review?

[Eponymous Hero]

every windows install i've ever used had the task bar locked by default. i had to unlock it to drag it to begin with.

Re:A Review?

[SpryGuy]

You understand that the Start Screen is customizable, right? If you put what you use up front, and delete the things you don't want (they're all still available via search or "All Programs"), you odn't have to scroll much at all. Also, there's semantic zoom, where even if you do have a very wide/long start screen, you can jump from one end to the other very rapidly (using either mouse, keyboard, or touch).

And if you're keyboard only, you can be really efficient... once you take the time to learn all the new key-combos of course. It does take a little investment, but there is a definite reward for the work.

Re:A Review?

[geekoid]

Lets see:
Windows users are stupid, being in IT makes you a monkey.

Yeah, with those gross generalities and out right incorrect premise I'm sure you're just a great scientist~

But keep going on about a premise in windows that isn't true, you being such a genius and all~

Re:A Review?

[geekoid]

"! I HATE WINDOWS 8 "
therefore no one like sit.
Stow your ego.

"Their interface is garbage. "
Because it's scary and new?

Re:A Review?

[Dahamma]

The definitive feature of linux is being able to right click and remove a panel... good for it? That wouldn't even be a feature on windows, it would be a disaster,

It wouldn't?

From the first comment on the article's site:

And, I’ll tell you this right now – as great as it is, you don’t find a whole lot of “Right click, Remove Panel” in Windows 8.'

Start Page -> Right Click Panel to Remove -> Click Unpin From Start in the App Bar.

Sounds like it is a feature, which kind of invalidates both the original article and your following rant ;)
(well, actually I agree with your point that the article was a horribly written opinion piece all around).

Re:A Review?

[Sir_Sri]

And what of that isn't true? IT exists because people don't know how to manage their own machines. Perhaps the correct term is 'ignorant' and not 'stupid' but the effect is the same, the vast majority of users are not capable of managing their own windows machines without help, whether that help is from relatives or IT staff, they still aren't doing it themselves.

Also, I'm a research scientist, it's my job to figure out why things are causing problems for IT. IT guys say to me 'we're getting a lot of questions about ....', I try and figure out the root cause of those problems, most of the time it's because users don't want to learn - which then makes it a designer issue, to design in such a way that the user doesn't have to learn to get their shit done - or so that the learning is so soul crushingly simple it's right in front of the user and they can't miss it. Specifically I do video games these days. Why doesn't this game work? Because you didn't update your drivers, didn't check the system requirements, didn't actually install the game, didn't reboot your system after you installed it and it asked you to, you didn't change the settings etc. Those resolve about 90% of the unique questions you get about video games (not MMO's obviously) - everything else are actual bugs, and then you get 1000 questions about 1 bug, which is a software engineering problem. You can have FAQ's everywhere, buttons that tell people what to do, printed instruction in the manual etc. Users still don't do it. And these are gamers, who are, by and large, the relatively tech savvy portion of the market.

Linux is philosophically fundamentally different - because it's trying to come into the business from the outside, you can both assume your readers are inclined to learn what the product is, and how to use it. Windows is there because it has to be there because some previous version of windows was there. Linux is there because someone very deliberately chose to put it there. Completely different sets of people.

Re:A Review?

[Sir_Sri]

Depends on what exactly you're talking about removing. As I say above, you can't remove the taskbar or the start menu or extra desktops trivially in windows which is good. Being able to kill particular gadgets and live tiles and icons makes sense, as long as you can't axe them from the start menu as well (in windows 7 at least), because those would be a disaster.

My point is also that they shouldn't be easy to remove, too easy to accidentally screw something up. That's fine for a competent user who can recreate something they accidentally fried, but it's bad for a user who can't figure out what happened.

Re:A Review?

[jbolden]

This is one of the areas where OSX is fantastic. Applications are directories. Menus and so forth are semi-structured editable files. You can manipulate them a little bit by hand or by using interface builder. On the other hand the GUI presents the entire Application directory as a single icon. So you can't accidentally hit any of this structure.

Lets people who know what they are doing customize and keeps the 70 year old aunt out.

Re:A Review?

[jellomizer]

A Big Linux Fan, Not really liking Windows... Whoa Say it can't be so.
The best thing about Linux, OS X and other OS's is that it gives us a choice. They all have their good and bad. But part of being able to choose, people will often choose different choices then you would. Some people like Windows, They are not stupid or evil, just just prefer it over the others. Some people prefer Linux, other like OS X. You even get some people probably using Plan 9 as the main OS.
I would love to see all the other OS's to expand so Windows isn't just the default, but this is what I would see in a perfect world...

Others 10%
Linux 15%
OS X 35%
Windows 40%

Re:A Review?

[Zero__Kelvin]

"You're assuming I set up her machine."

Not at all. I was merely assuming you were willing to help your 70 year old aunt. I didn't realize you were too important a scientist to be burdened with such trivialities.

Re:A Review?

[Zero__Kelvin]

With scientists like you, who needs monkeys?

Re:A Review?

[Sir_Sri]

If you don't think science is real work try and get papers published some time.

We have to figure out what something really is, objectively, measurably, we have to demonstrate how an idea works, demonstrably, measurable etc. Good design is an application of science, it's using what a bunch of people figured out is true to accomplish something. Is this the best colour for the logo? How do you even test that? Bad OS design causes problems that we can, and do study and measure. Quite a lot of work has been done over the years in classifying users into different types within different problem domains to try and figure out how things apply to them. The most basic in games is the well know explorers-achievers-killers-socializers - which is, admittedly, an overly simplistic model. Now games are my area of expertise, and I've done a fair bit of work on a particular sub domain of game UI's but some of the principles apply everywhere. How do you know if a UI is bad for someone who is colourblind?

UI design, especially windows UI design hits a HUGE number of users of all possible types. Bad design causes problems which become support issues - I literally just got off the phone with a 17 year old kid who didn't understand what windows directories are. He somehow managed to install his game 6 times according to him. Well no, he'd copied the icon for it 6 times, but he only had one copy of the game. Windows just spat back an error that said 'try again, if that doesn't work restart' - so to one of my points, that windows users don't like to read, he hadn't read the error, or tried rebooting. Which naturally didn't solve the problem, because the windows error was worse than useless. As it turns out he hadn't actually finished installing the game (insert disk 2? Fuck that I paid for the game it should work from disk one...). I'm going to go with guessing our programmers didn't anticipate someone trying to run the game with the installer running while waiting for disk 2. So that part wasn't actually a windows error really - but a better error message might have alleviated some of it, and certainly UI design on our end could have better resolved the 'no really you have to insert disk 2 or else the game won't work' problem. A weak UI design became an IT problem, which landed on my desk because the kid is a friend of a friend, and wasted my time trying to fix. Now imagine that with 500 million customers rather than 50 000.

Re:A Review?

[dbIII]

Half the population are of below average intelligence.
Is that attitude an unneeded one as well?

The reading bit is too baldly stated there, but I've said a similar thing about user interfaces in applications instead of the users. Sometimes it's better to use words instead of just pointing at pictures.

Re:A Review?

[fm6]

And yet all news sites have them. Strange.

Re:A Review?

[eWarz]

Especially now that Start8 emulates the classic start menu.

Re:A Review?

[Anonymous Coward]

i thought that might be it. you know that after you drag it somewhere else you can lock it so it can't be dragged again until you unlock it?

Actually I did it on my laptop by mistake.
I couldn't find the way to drag it back. No Wifi.

Re:A Review?

[bsercombe72]

Actually you can create your own custom ribbon and add whatever you like to it. Not that I'm advocating the billions of dollars in lost productivity that we can lay at the feet of microsoft due to their introduction of the ribbon. Most of the people old, young and intermediate that I support still find it counter intuative after 4+ years of use. Really, thanks for that one Micor$hit.

Re:A Review?

[eWarz]

rather, the url is http://richard.blogdns.com/posts/bring-back-the-start-menu-in-windows-8#.UEAyHxIj4us

Re:A Review?

[Sir_Sri]

This is kind of the paradox of it. They've realized people are using windows 7 wrong, but it gets the job done for them. Forcing them to behave properly via windows 8 doesn't seem like a great strategy when no one will have a fucking clue how to make it work.

Along with everything else wrong with it.

I see where they're coming from, I just don't don't think it will work. But I'd be pleased to be wrong on this one.

Re:A Review?

[shutdown -p now]

Curiously enough, on Windows Phone this is actually done right - you pretty much only have vertically-scrollable lists, and the only kind of horizontal scrolling that you see is to switch panes, which is done by flicking left/right - easy to do with a thumb since you don't need the gesture to end at a precise point.

In Win8, on the other hand, the core UI (e.g. home screen) as well as stock apps all scroll left/right. So it's not quite the same Metro.

Re:A Review?

[shutdown -p now]

Actually, those kinds of people are going to love Win8, because it's actually encouraged there. Any app can pin "secondary tiles" to your home screen, which are essentially bookmarks to whatever content that app has - except they can also be live tiles. So for a browser, you can pin websites. For the weather app, you can pin different locations (and the tiles then show weather). For the stock app, you can pin different stocks (again, the tiles show current value). For email, you can pin specific folders (and the tiles show unread message count in the corresponding folder). Third-party stuff does it, too - e.g. the Kindle app lets you pin books.

Re:A Review?

[dutchd00d]

Linux kicks ass in certain areas, embedded, servers, HPCs, its just not a great desktop.

It is too a great desktop, I've been using it as such for, oh, 15 years now. It has just one thing going against it: it's not Windows. That means 1. little Johnny from next door can't help you out when you screw things up, and 2. it won't run Windows applications (at least not well), so it's not easy to exchange documents between you and people who do use Windows.

If there was only Linux on the desktop, people would be just as happy with it as they are with Windows. But it's a Windows world, so you might as well go with the flow and use it too, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But I maintain that from a pure usability viewpoint Linux-on-the-desktop is just fine.

(Caveat: talking about the classic Gnome 2/Windows 7-like interface. Haven't used Unity or Windows 8 for any length of time, and not planning to.)

Re:A Review?

[epyT-R]

It doesn't change the fact that starting new applications should not be a modal event that takes up the whole screen.. not on a desktop.

Re:A Review?

[sjames]

You're trying to tell me that Windows magically allows a user to do whatever they want and never screw it up? WOW, what a world you must live in. Here in the real world installing some package for Windows is FAR more likely to hose the whole thing than installing packages using the distro package manager.

The fact is that MOST people don't actually do many different things with their PC be it Windows, Linux, or Mac. They have a few apps they use all the time and that's about it.

In the Linux world, the packages you can install from a good distro are often all you'll ever need or want.

Note that the vast majority of home PC users don't even have proper install media for Windows. The machine came with it pre-installed. If it's not loaded down with shovelware it's because they had an IT support person strip it out for them at some point (note, that can be anything from someone at a shop to a neighbor, friend, or relative).

Re:A Review?

[DeTech]

Every car is supposed to have standard spacing on pedals so that anyone can put their feet in the right place on the car.

except for your nanna. cause she's fat, and has diabetes, and lost her foot.

Re:A Review?

[marcello_dl]

> Meanwhile all your applications work, your drivers work no matter how many patches and services packs get released...

The drivers work as in win7? that is, plug the oki old laser, win says no driver, you ignore it and go to the producer website, navigate around till you find the proper driver, download it, and then google for how to install printer drivers on win7 since the older method doesn't work?

But please go on repeating the linux on desktop mantra to winslaves, they helped build the MS monopoly so they deserve to suffer :D

Re:A Review?

[hairyfeet]

Well most of us aren't dumpster diving, but hey, whatever melts your butter.

Re:A Review?

[morgauxo]

Right! Because if the 'feature' in question is bad for your 70 year old aunt then it is bad for everyone and nobody should have it available to them! Do you work for Apple? Or maybe you are a Gnome developer? That's the attitude that is really making computing start to suck!

A better way is two options. An OS for your aunt and an OS for someone who better knows what they are doing. Everybody gets the environment they want and we can love hate or be indifferent to each of them as we please.

That still sucks. Best is one OS with multiple modes, one for your Aunt where all is simple and the corners are padded. One for the geek where the geek can be master and make his computer exactly what he wants. Switching between these modes should be simple enough to the geek but hidden deep enough that your aunt will not stumble into it. You know.. that is kind of like switching desktop/window managers isn't it? This way both get to benefit from the same software and hardware development. New programs and hardware that come out WILL run on the one OS.

Best yet... if you think you can write a better review then STFU and do it already!

Re:A Review?

[marcello_dl]

In fact you are dumpster stuffing. Thank you for reminding people about the impact of planned obsolescence.

Re:A Review?

[Nivag064]

GNOME 3 is unusable for serious users: cluttered background, no applets on panels, no customisation of panels, lots more. Now I use xfce: I have 25 virtual desktops (though only half of them in use at the moment), each virtual desktop in use has between 1 & 5 windows, and I have 2 highly customised panels that auto hide. I have a 30" monitor. I do software development.

GNOME 3 on a desktop is for sheeple, and I don't think I'd actually want it on a tablet either...

I still think that Microsoft's Window's 8 is going to be a bigger disaster than Microsoft's Vista!
Corporates an't gonna like it, a lot of retraining to do, new copies of software to buy...

Re:A Review?

[aaron552]

I'm going to go devil's advocate and ask why a "serious user" needs those things. There are still applets for GNOME, although they can't be placed on panels anymore and I'm not sure what you mean by "cluttered" background. My GNOME desktop has 0 icons on it and is completely clean (they way I like it).

However, if GNOME doesn't meet your specific needs, nothing is forcing you to not switch to KDE or another desktop environment. The problem with Windows 8 is that Modern UI is not optional. You have to use it in some form, even if only a little.

Re:A Review?

[Zero__Kelvin]

I didn't read what you wrote, because you didn't pay attention to what I wrote. Let me see if I can put it in words even a scientist like you can understand: Get over yourself. You're nobody special..

Re:A Review?

[spike hay]

IQ is defined as being normally distributed. Thus the mean and the median are the same.

Re:A Review?

[RoboJ1M]

I am also a developer. I have to monitors. Each has one desktop. One on screen, I have the code. On the other, facebook.

What the hell are you doing? o.O

(Actually I also have an Xml/Xsd editor, email, database and word processor windows, but I only use one at a time and when I want to switch I just, you know, click on it's icon)

Re:A Review?

[RoboJ1M]

Argh, TWO monitors. .;

Re:A Review?

[RoboJ1M]

I would say that it's now a browser world and OS's are on the long road to becoming irrelevant/transparent.

Windows applications? At work the only windows application I use that hasn't been replaced by a browser app in the real world in visual studio and sql server management studio.

Even though the browser is currently a daft fit for applications (proper primitive shoehorn stuff) give it 10 years.

Re:A Review?

[Nivag064]

I use one box to admin my home network, support a web site on a remote machine, and develop software for a university. I typically have one session up for 10 days or more.

Having multiple virtual desktops allows me to have windows set up for different aspects of projects where each one has a well defined focus.

Auto hiding panels allows me to use more screen real estate for other things. I already use multiple tabs on web browsers (Firefox, seamonkey, and epiphany), on directory windows, and terminals.

Where do I put applets, if not on panels? I don't want applets always to be visible, but I want to be able to see/use them quickly.

I tried GNOME 3 when it first came out, it may have improved since then. However, I found it did not support my workflow patterns, but xfce seemed the best alternative. Now, I don't trust GNOME, as I think it is too risky to use GNOME 3 in case they decide to remove useful features - to some extent this started in GNOME 1, but not so dramatically as going from GNOME 2. to GNOME 3.

As far as I remember, GNOME 3 had buttons and areas that where for particular purposes, and a background you could not change.

I have switched to xfce - I looked at KDE 4, but it too had been nobbled.

I was forced to make drastic and unnecessary changes in the way I worked - GNOME 2 did mostly what I wanted. Then I had spend time to investigate alternatives to GNOME 3, and then learn how to customise xfce. Now what I have is superior to GNOME 3, but not as good as GNOME 2.

If GNOME 3 had been called 'Fashionida' or some such, and they had simply improved GNOME 2 without sabotaging any of its value - I would still be using GNOME, and the people who like the GNOME 3 style could also be happy. The main problem with GNOME 3 is that it is _NOT_ an improvement on GNOME 2.

I was very glad I had no clients that relied on GNOME 2 features!

Re:A Review?

[virgnarus]

That wouldn't even be a feature on windows, it would be a disaster, because my 70 year old aunt would accidentally remove something important, not be sure what it was, and call me to find out how to fix it. All the people in my office would remove things, want them back, and not be able to find them. Etc.

Yes. Nearly half the support calls I get from older acquaintances and family are because they incidentally moved or hide some menu bar, icon or whatnot and can't for the life of them find it again. Performing a couple clicks or a mere click-n-drag to correct the issue just astounds them, and they'd tell me it seems so easy they'll do fine again, only to get a call from them months later about the same issue. If I already have enough calls for this kind of help with previous versions of Windows, the last thing I'd want is more of it.

Re:A Review?

[aztracker1]

Funny, I put Mint on a laptop for a friend's kid, who had a trouble with getting their machine infected... They were visiting another friend, and called because they couldn't figure out how to connect to the wifi... well, that's because they removed the tray from the panel... fortunately someone there was bright enough to walk through adding it back in over the phone.... doing that with my gram, probably not so easy.

Re:A Review?

[Phoghat]

This is an opinion from a supposed "tech expert"? Someone who is supposed to have a drawer full of tools and knows how to use them all? This is like a carpenter saying : "I think those new screws are perfect, really, but at the end of the day use only nails, because you can pull them out easily" Hogwash

Re:A Review?

[hairyfeet]

Really? My 8 year old PC runs just fine on Win 7, as does my nearly 5 year old desktop and now 2 year old laptop. Whether you wish to accept it or not thing HAVE gotten better, more power efficiency , less waste heat, but you trot out some CCC (Cheapo Chinese Crap) that wasn't supported by the actual manufacturer and think that proves...what? that Linux devs really looove their dumpster diving?

Since you won't listen to me, how about listening to an actual Linux developer at Red hat no less, who says the desktop is "suckage" and in its death throes? Here you go friend or how about a list of over 200 serious breakages in Linux, complete with links to every. single. one. will that be enough? Here it is help thyself.

But keep right on deluding yourself into believing that supporting some old rare POS hardware that nobody owns nor cares about (including the OEM who has long abandoned it) makes your platform worthwhile, manwhile your OS is STILL stuck at 0.97 after 20 damned years of being given away. 20 years of being 100% free and that's the BEST you can do? If that doesn't smack you with a cluebat that Linux is going down the wrong path then frankly nothing short of Jesus descending from a cloud to smite Linus Torvalds will.

Re:A Review?

[lsatenstein]

For a while I have been using KDE. With KDE, I can remove and remove until a base set is left, and on that frame is an icon that says, "Restore defaults". To my test, it restores the set of defaults that were present when I created the KDE logon.

So, not all GUI interfaces are as good as KDE provides.

Negative aspect of KDE (slow startup to establish itself. Perhaps some optimisation would be possible to halve the startup time)

Re:A Review?

[dbIII]

Median is a type of average.
Also you are arguing about an analogy.

Re:A Review?

[metaforest]

You can have an opinion piece that makes some sort of interesting argument about why this feature really changes the computing experience, and how its absence in windows renders the OS unworthy to use, ok, that could actually be interesting. But TFA spends 3/4ths of its length on superficial discussions of things - and the places where a serious and sensible discussion could be made are given no real treatment.

Dude minimized the serious part of the discussion, but forgot how to restore it.

Re:A Review?

[aaron552]

Having multiple virtual desktops allows me to have windows set up for different aspects of projects where each one has a well defined focus.

GNOME 3 still has multiple virtual desktops. Although it sounds like you dedicate specific VDs to specific tasks, and leave these VDs there even when they're not in use.

Where do I put applets, if not on panels? I don't want applets always to be visible, but I want to be able to see/use them quickly.

From memory, applets in GNOME 3 live in the systray area, which is hidden, but appears on mouseover (bottom-right).

As far as I remember, GNOME 3 had buttons and areas that where for particular purposes, and a background you could not change.

I'm not sure what you mean here. It has buttons for particular purposes? As opposed to buttons that don't have a particular purpose? "A background you can't change"? You can change the wallpaper, or were you referring to something else?

The main problem with GNOME 3 is that it is _NOT_ an improvement on GNOME 2.

The main problem with GNOME 3 is that it is a dramatic change from GNOME 2, with very little in common. Whether it is better or worse is subjective. With no easy path back to GNOME 2, users are forced to switch to another desktop environment and deal with the unique differences and problems of those.

Re:A Review?

[marcello_dl]

We were not discussing your experience with win7 or the market penetration.
We were discussing your definition of Just Works.

For YOUR definition of Just Works, Linux Just Works too.

Re:A Review?

[mcgrew]

It will probably be years before I see W8, if ever (I've only seen one computer with Vista), but why the comparison to Linux? Why not compare it to W7? And if you're comparing Linux to Windows, why not compare a single linux distro since every flavor of Linux is different to the Microsoft OS that's currently shipping?

Does W8 need reboots as often as W7? Linux almost never needs reboots. Does W8 enter a password automatically if told to do so on bootup, like Linux and unlike W7? W7 was far better than XP at handling flaky hardware, but nowhere near as good as Linux. Has Windows caught up in this regard? Does W8 boot up with everything that was open when you shut down reopened, like Linux does and W7 doesn't? Will W8 allow you to have movies and slideshows as wallpaper, as KDE does but W7 doesn't?

Actually, W7 was such an improvement that I've had that notebook for a year and still haven't installed Linux on it yet (but that's mostly from laziness).

Re:A Review?

[leromarinvit]

Huh, did you mean to reply to a different comment?

Anyway, I completely agree with you. Without context, I'd say the reason to compare Windows to Linux in general, without naming a specific distro, is because even though the default configuration depends on the distro, you can customize most so much that you can end up with something very similar no matter where you start from. Of course, that's mostly just a "because I can" proof of concept thing - since I value my time and sanity, I'd always use the one where I have to do the least amount of tinkering to get to the desired state. For most people, that's probably either Debian, (K/X/L)Ubuntu, or Fedora, or maybe Arch or some RHEL clone.

As to what W8 does or doesn't support, I have no idea since I've never tried it. I agree that W7 was a big step forward from XP - with Cygwin, AutoHotkey for global/custom hotkeys, and VirtuaWin for virtual desktops, it's actually pretty usable. I guess MS will keep it alive for a long time like they did with the XP downgrade option that came with most Vista PCs. My biggest complaint is, funnily enough, hardware support. For anything other than graphics cards and maybe wifi chipsets, Linux tends to have better support these days. Certainly out of the box, but also after you hunt down each and every driver for Windows. Mostly because on Linux, everything that's really just the same hardware in a different box uses the same driver, while on Windows, every manufacturer has different drivers, each with their own set of annoying bugs. And Linux wins hands down for old and obscure hardware: The Windows driver for my SAS controller doesn't really support standby - the disk only spins up about 20s after resume, and sometimes not at all, causing a BSOD. I tried an Ubuntu live cd, and it worked flawlessly. If I didn't need Windows sometimes, I'd have thrown it out already. When the next paycheck comes along, I'll probably replace the loud and small 15k HDD with an SSD, and finally have some space to install Linux on this box.

BTW, and completely offtopic here: I'm greatly looking forward to the next time travelling story, I enjoy them a lot! I hope you have just as much fun writing them!

Re:A Review?

[mcgrew]

Huh, did you mean to reply to a different comment?

I must have.

the reason to compare Windows to Linux in general, without naming a specific distro, is because even though the default configuration depends on the distro, you can customize most so much that you can end up with something very similar no matter where you start from.

True, but choosing ths wrong distro when one is first trying out Linux, who may have no experience whatever with any OS but Windows, can make him think "Linux sucks" when the truth is he shouldn't have chosen Red Hat for a desktop system. Yes, you can get Red Hat to do what you want, but a Windows user couldn't.

BTW, and completely offtopic here: I'm greatly looking forward to the next time travelling story, I enjoy them a lot! I hope you have just as much fun writing them!

Thank you! I doubt I'd write them if I didn't enjoy doing so. I just dumped all of them into an Oo file, and it was only 30 pages long, so there will have to be quite a bit more before it's a book. I'm not sure what order the chapters will be in later.

If you haven't seen The Paxil Diaries, it's on BitTorrent. It will probably take a while to download, there aren't many peers or seeders.

GNOME3's GNOME Shell fails the same way!

[erroneus]

I know others will say the same thing. But I wanted to say it first if that's possible.

On my list of most annoying things about GNOME 3's GNOME shell is that I can't remove or customize the bar on the top... not easily anyway.

I want my old panels back.

Re:GNOME3's GNOME Shell fails the same way!

[MrEricSir]

Sure you can! And it's a totally intuitive process. You just open your web browser, visit the Gnome Shell extensions site, click through a few pages of poorly organized extensions, and there will be five of them that sort of do what you want and are only partially broken.

Re:GNOME3's GNOME Shell fails the same way!

[aliquis]

Maybe they will catch up?
https://opensource.conformal.com/wiki/spectrwm#Major_features

Re:GNOME3's GNOME Shell fails the same way!

[Rob_Bryerton]

>>On my list of most annoying things about GNOME 3's GNOME shell is that I can't remove or customize the bar on the top... not easily anyway.

Oh, that's easy. On something like Fedora, you'd enter:

`yum -y groupinstall Xfce && yum -y install switchdesk && switchdesk XFCE'

Log out, back in, and you're good to go!

Re:GNOME3's GNOME Shell fails the same way!

[sjames]

That's why I remove GNOME 3 itself. The whole thing bugs me, so it's gone.

Re:GNOME3's GNOME Shell fails the same way!

[Lotana]

Really?! When was this feature implemented?

I might want to check out the latest version again. It will be interesting to see how it approaches female users. :-)

Re:GNOME3's GNOME Shell fails the same way!

[shutdown -p now]

I might want to check out the latest version again. It will be interesting to see how it approaches female users. :-)

It'll handle them just fine, provided that they install balls first.

Re:GNOME3's GNOME Shell fails the same way!

[Sigg3.net]

After finding out about extensions in Gnome 3, I find it kind of awesome.

There should be a native app to apply them though, in addition to the website.

Re:GNOME3's GNOME Shell fails the same way!

[Nivag064]

consider xfce - as Linus says: "xfce is better than GNOME 3, but not as good as GNOME 2"

my xfce desktops look remarkably like my GNOME 2 ones, though there are obvious differences

Re:GNOME3's GNOME Shell fails the same way!

[wisdom_brewing]

Terrified of Gnomes but if they suck my balls I might get involved...

If win8 is art....

[DeeEff]

Then beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder, and you need to get your eyes checked.

Re:If win8 is art....

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with him - I love it also. I think it's going to be big on tablets.

Re:If win8 is art....

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess is he's an art major and can see hidden meanings in the colors and arrangements of tiles us mere mortals are incapable of grasping.

Re:If win8 is art....

[sandytaru]

Someone I know who has been using for a bit now said it's simply the fastest OS he's ever used, and he's sorry it's a Windows OS.

Re:If win8 is art....

[Nadaka]

Isn't Salvador Dali the one who did that painting of the chick with a uni-brow and mustache?

Re:If win8 is art....

[lister king of smeg]

As evil as eye tyrants i still don't get why would they like windows eight... maybe i should play less dnd.

Re:If win8 is art....

[Mike Buddha]

Isn't Salvador Dali the one who did that painting of the chick with a uni-brow and mustache?

No, that would be the chick with the uni-brow and moustache, Frida Kahlo.

Re:If win8 is art....

[0111 1110]

What drug? It must be a serious hallucinogen. Was he tripping on DXM?

Re:If win8 is art....

[renegadesx]

No that would be my grandmother taking 'selfies' again.

Re:If win8 is art....

[spongman]

not Pollock, more Chris Ofili.

Re:If win8 is art....

[spongman]

heh, maybe it was Christopher Mayhew

'a Work of Art'

[kheldan]

Art is in the eye of the beholder.
Personally I think it's a piece of crap.
Of course, if you definition of 'art' is 'something that evokes and emotional response', then I guess it's art: it evokes a feeling of disgust and revoltion in me, I want to get it as far away from me (and my equipment) as possible.

Re:'a Work of Art'

[LoverOfJoy]

Of course, if you definition of 'art' is 'something that evokes and emotional response', then I guess it's art: it evokes a feeling of disgust and revoltion in me, I want to get it as far away from me (and my equipment) as possible.

That's what she said?

Re:'a Work of Art'

[thatskinnyguy]

Rage is an emotion right?

Re:'a Work of Art'

[Quiet_Desperation]

More like Piet Mondrian.

http://www.abstract-art.com/abstraction/l2_grnfthrs_fldr/g022_mondrian_.html

Re:'a Work of Art'

[Errol backfiring]

My most negative definition of art is "something that has no other purpose than to be looked at". So according to that definition it indeed might be art.

lameness

[Anonymous Coward]

you're lame; linux isn't about the UI dillhole.

Re:lameness

[kat_skan]

And there you have it folks. The reason that the Linux desktop has never taken off in just eight condescending little words.

Re:lameness

[rubycodez]

But that's good. I don't want an OS and desktop that panders to morons. fuck 'em, they can give their money to Microsoft. it's all good, win-win.

Re:lameness

[Zanadou]

I don't have mod point now so I'll just say: "this".

file progress

[TubeSteak]

I kid you not, the copy file progress dialog in Windows 8 is a thing of beauty. If you havenâ(TM)t seen it in action, and you are a fan of cool user interfaces, you owe it to yourself. To say I am impressed with what the team at Microsoft has accomplished would be a massive understatement.

So I take this to mean that MS did not fix the dialog's 5000% difference between guesstimated time and actual transfer time?

Re:file progress

[X0563511]

I'll just be happy if it doesn't take 20 hours to "calculate" which files are going to be deleted when things like "del" do the job almost instantaneously.

Re:file progress

[Zero__Kelvin]

Ob-xkcd

Re:file progress

[LinuxIsGarbage]

As long as it doesn't say "One file in the middle of your large copy / move operation is in use, so I will have to abandon the entire rest of it in an unknown state"

Re:file progress

[randyleepublic]

Yeah, and as if a file "in use" does not have a static version, capable, yes, of being copied, on the drive at any given time. WTF was someone thinking there????

I just don't get it. How can an organization as filled with talent as Microsoft make such a boneheaded decision about how such a simple thing should work? And then leave it that way version after version after version... *sigh*

Yah Right...

[KlomDark]

Paid Troll anyone?

Re:Yah Right...

[Twinbee]

From Microsoft or Linux's side?

One man's art, is another man's trash

[Eldragon]

'Work of Art' is an interesting choice of words. The art world is full of examples of 'art' that shocks and offends the viewer for precisely that purpose.

So when someone says Windows 8 is a 'Work of Art' I have to ask "Do you mean The Mona Lisa or L.H.O.O.Q.?"

Re:One man's art, is another man's trash

[tsotha]

Art or not art I don't care. What I'm looking for in an operating system is a tool, not art.

Then why not a Mac?

[nweaver]

OS-X is almost entirely free of OS-derived graphical gunk. You have the desktop (which can be blank), and the doc (which can be hidden), and a few things along the menu bar in the upper right hand corner (which can be hidden).

Other than that, it already meets his "graphical gunk free" ideal.

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[bananaquackmoo]

You're kidding right? OSX has TONS of OS-derived graphical gunk. Gradients, drop shadows, and I hope you like chrome. A dock and a menu bar that you can't get rid of? Animations you can't turn off? Transparency? I don't want ANY of that crud, especially since its eye-candy that slows things down.

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[mkiwi]

Quit complaining about OS X unless you can put in a substitute window manager. You don't have to use Aqua or Quartz, just like the gp implied. Hell, I've booted a desktop mac off of Darwin and run KDE on top of it-–no OS X specific GUI stuff required. If you have the capability, a few simple changes in config files and you be running in X11 with an xterm at log on.

If you can not do that, then you need to hand in your geek card and not post such ignorance.

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[jedidiah]

My "shitbox" is fine. I can put a new video card into it.

Its my Macs that will have problems with this nonsense. They can't be upgraded.

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[PPH]

All I need is a shell prompt and a blinking cursor.

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[pspahn]

He's calling Macs shitboxes. Reminds of that "Crapple" logo I designed back in the late 90's in high school. A nicely formed little pile of turd with rainbow colors. I may have to find that and print up some t-shirts.

Sorry, carry on now.

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[Anonymous Coward]

Install KDE or Gnome on OSX then and stop complaining. Aqua isn't a requirement. OSX is a BSD system and can run all compatible window managers accordingly.

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[aliquis]

since its eye-candy that slows things down.

Yeah. Have you ever tried to type things in 20 terminals in OS X at more or less the same time?

Yeah. Me neither. But if I tried for sure the UI would be the limiting factor for my efficiency!

Meanwhile at the /. AJAX news item comment thread ..

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[garyebickford]

Ha! When I was young all we had was a 110 baud KSR-33 teletype with mechanical keys and paper printout, and we LIKED it!

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[0111 1110]

I don't own a Mac or Hackentosh, but I believe you can remove the dock at least. I also hate it.

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[Vegemeister]

Unless you consider battery life to be part of performance. Every joule counts.

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[R3d M3rcury]

[...] Gradients, drop shadows [...]

Try this.

A dock and a menu bar that you can't get rid of?

If you can deal with it just being hidden, you can hide it by going to the Apple menu and choosing Dock -> Turn Hiding On. If you want to actually get rid of it, there's this.

The menu bar? Uh...you got me there. But without a menu bar, there's not that much you can do. Kind of like saying, "Why can't I get rid of the Start menu" in Windows.

Animations you can't turn off?

Well, you can turn off window animations, and a bunch more.

Transparency?

You can turn off the translucent menu bar by going to System Preferences, choosing Desktop & Screen Saver, and unchecking the "Translucent Menu Bar" checkbox.

Anything else?

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[bananaquackmoo]

First, seriously, thank you for the tips. Some of these weren't there last time I checked (granted this was years ago). Any idea how to turn off transparency for the gui SYSTEM WIDE not just on the menu bar? As for the "why can't I get rid of the Start menu" in Windows comment, you can. Very easily. AND Windows is still quite functional without it.

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[Nivag064]

with xfce, you can run applications from a menu that pops up when you right click the background - though I have not enabled that feature, as I have the equivalent of Microsoft's start menu (kinda) on an auto hiding menu bar

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[rubycodez]

and don't forget the keyboard features like the multiple keystroke chords for things as simple as taking a screenshot. or having to hold down keyboard keys for some mousing options. I don't know why people harp about the MacOS UI, it's become bloated, crufty, and poorly planned. yes, I have to use a Mac every day at work. xfce4 or cinnamon on Linux is superior.

Re:Then why not a Mac?

[toddestan]

OSX *is* the window manager. That's what you're paying for when you hand your dollars over to Apple. Sure, you can run KDE (free) on top of Darwin (also free), but that's not OSX, now is it?

Windows 8 is good but needs work.

[m1ndcrash]

I liked most things about win8. It boots SO fast compared to win7. {IMHO} MS shouldn't have put such an emphasis on touchscreen or at least make it configurable for "normal" desktop / tablet use.

Re:Windows 8 is good but needs work.

[gl4ss]

imho I don't care if it boots any faster.. got a nice ssd and win7 boots by the time I can get my ass on the sofa after plugging in the hdmi cable.

the improvements on desktop side aren't bad, but the redactions made on that side to move people into ms appstore metro land are just too much.

Re:Windows 8 is good but needs work.

[freeze128]

It depends how you define "Boot": With previous iterations of Windows, the Boot time has been measured from first read of the boot sector to desktop. Well, with Windows 8, the desktop isn't the first thing you see, it's hidden behind the Metro interface. Metro is probably hiding the fact that it boots just as quickly as Windows 7.

I measure the "time to boot" as from the first read of the boot sector to the running of the Network service. In order to save boot time, Microsoft delayed the starting of several base services. With more and more applications and functions being cloud-based, we will need the networking service more than ever. How usable is your PC if all your data is stored in the cloud and your Network service hasn't started yet?

Dependencies

[Penurious Penguin]

I don't find it much easier to remove features from mainstream Linux distros anymore than I do in Windows. The dependencies often prohibit removing even the most useless apps without taking the entire Desktop and other vital things with it. Of course, this is not the case in something like Arch, or Gentoo, but in Windows it's pretty easy to turn services off in Administrative Tasks and even through the registry. Also, I think neither Unity or Gnome3 go out the way to offer customizable UIs.

~ sudo $ apt-get remove completely-unnecessary-application
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following packages will be REMOVED:
/*
After this operation, ALL disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]?

Re:Dependencies

[jedidiah]

It's not about de-installing it, it's about making sure it does or does not run.

Whether or not it contributes to cruft on the disk is fairly unimportant.

Re:Dependencies

[Penurious Penguin]

Any idea on an easy method of making sure Zeitgeist doesn't run? I've have entirely removed it already, but am still up for an easier, clean method. Upstart isn't nearly as straightforward (to me) as rc.conf and has left me tolerating a few daemons I'd rather not in Mint.

Re:Dependencies

[isorox]

~ sudo $ apt-get remove completely-unnecessary-application

Care to offer a real example?

Re:Dependencies

[Penurious Penguin]

Zeitgeist, Ubuntu One, and others I've long forgotten. But I'm sure you could discover many more.

I'm not even a fan of Windows 8...

[Anubis IV]

...but this piece just reeks of trolling the Windows crowd. Why do we need a multi-hundred word paragraph explaining that you can hide items in Linux but not in Windows? An even better question: what reason do we have to be interested in colinneagle's opinion? It's neither insightful nor unique, let alone relevant to most people, since this is not the feature that will make or break the deal for the vast majority of users choosing between the two OSes. I'm glad he's been able to make a decision for himself, but why should a typical nerd be interested in this opinion piece?

Re:I'm not even a fan of Windows 8...

[King_TJ]

Yep.... exactly how I feel about this, too.

You could sum up the entire article as, "Windows 8 looks great, but I wound up not liking it personally, because I couldn't customize it to my more minimalist tastes, selectively hiding or turning off anything on the screen I decided I didn't care for."

And I'd say, "That's nice. But you're in a small minority of users, compared to all the people who find it difficult enough to get around their computer's OS, without having to cope with individual machines having different graphic elements present or missing, depending on the whims of whoever messed with it before you."

News for Herds?

[Joviex]

I love tacos, they are a culinary masterpiece, but why do I keep eating pizza? A subjective opinion passed off as actual news; how novel.

Re:News for Herds?

[AwesomeMcgee]

bloody taco shill.

Re:First TROLL

[Spy Handler]

not a troll, maybe a stealth shill. Look at the print in bold:

That's not a joke. Windows 8 is absolutely, unequivocally stellar.

It boots fast, looks great and, right out of the gate, fully supports every bell and whistle on my laptop (including the touch screen). Applications launch faster, and are generally more responsive, than I have ever seen on this piece of hardware. Hell, I even like the copy file dialog.

As I sat in traffic yesterday for a few hours -- as those of us in Seattle seem to enjoy doing so much -- I thought long and hard about this.

Awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

>And it is awesome.

adjective: awe-inspiring, striking, shocking, imposing, terrible, amazing, stunning, wonderful, alarming, impressive, frightening, awful, overwhelming, terrifying, magnificent, astonishing, horrible, dreadful, formidable, horrifying, intimidating, fearful, daunting, breathtaking, majestic, solemn, fearsome, wondrous (archaic or literary), redoubtable, jaw-dropping, stupefying

Collins Thesaurus of the English Language â" Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins Publishers 1995, 2002

Can't argue with that.

Re:Awesome

[Penurious Penguin]

Awesome Window Manager

Oh, yeah?

[Master of Transhuman]

"whatever is on your screen, there is probably a way to send it to whatever form of the afterlife is reserved for unwanted Desktop Crud"

Well, on KDE 4 on openSUSE 12.1, I have these screen tips that show up on the programs I have open in the panel. Every time my mouse gets near the panel - such as when I'm TRYING to click on something low on the screen and I overshoot a bit - they pop up and obscure what I want to click on. If I move the mouse a bit I can get rid of the obscuring screen tip but it's incredibly irritating to do this fifty times an hour!

And as far as I can tell, there is NO WAY to get rid of those screen tips without ALSO getting rid of them in the System Tray - which I do not want. I want screen tips on the utilities in the System Tray, just not on open programs. I understand why they're there, of course - if you open a lot of programs on one desktop, the open program display gets scrunched down and you'd need the popups to switch from program to program - except I use Alt-Tab for that when that happens. But I want the ability to selectively remove those screen tips while leaving the ones on the utilities in the System Tray which show useful info like the clock.

So no, you can't get rid of anything and everything.

Still, it's way better than Windows, I agree.

Re:Oh, yeah?

[mister_playboy]

Right click on the panel in vicinity of your icon > Task Manager Settings > uncheck "Show Tooltips".

Simple.

Re:Oh, yeah?

[geekoid]

And as far as I can tell"
Well then yiou didn'y look very far. Did you look at all? Or did you just find the first thing you didn't know and use that as an excuse to stick with an entrenched habit?

What a surprise

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Tech-savvy user prefer highly-configurable things that can be customized by tech-savvy users and dislikes things designed to be used as-is by computer idiots. News at 10...

What I'm really wondering though is whether this "article" is a cleverly disguise Windows 8 plug: the Linux bit is there to prevent the poster for being marked as a Microsoft shill, while the real message is "Windows 8 is a work of art". Because really, that's the only thing people who are afraid of Linux will read.

Linux lovers who find Windows 8 a work of art seem suspicious to me...

Re:What a surprise

[PeanutButterBreath]

What I'm really wondering though is whether this "article" is a cleverly disguise Windows 8 plug: the Linux bit is there to prevent the poster for being marked as a Microsoft shill, while the real message is "Windows 8 is a work of art".

It is a cleverly disguised OS-X plug meant to discredit the concept of letting users determine how they want their UI to look.. What better way to discredit Linux configurability than to suggest that the type of person who likes to configure their Linux installation will be impressed by the beauty of Windows 8?

Re:What a surprise

[bws111]

I disagree with your assessment. It is not tech-savvy users who prefer highly-configurable things, it is people that have nothing better to do than tinker with their system. And it is not computer idiots who like things to work as-is, it is people who just want to use their tools.

I am tech-savvy. I have been developing Linux applications (server-side) and using them in critical production environments for over a decade. No complaints, Linux works perfectly and is trouble-free in that environment.

A few weeks ago I decided to take the plunge and switch from using Windows on my primary workstation, to using Linux. Installation (RHEL 6) was very smooth, no problems.

Here is my experience. Log on first time, get desktop window. Looks reasonable. Start web browser (firefox). Dear god, what is with those fonts? They are absolutely hideous. OK, I'll see what the wisdom of the web says about that. Aha! All you have to do is intall the msttcorefonts package, and you are good to go. OK, I'll give that a try - it works! I have usable fonts. Hmm, I wonder what the msttcorefonts package did? I see, it installed fonts from Windows!

Go to another web page. Uh-oh, more trouble. Thi s pa ge h as tex t that lo oks li ke thi s. WTF? Back to the web. Well, you must be missing a font. Find out what the web page is trying to use. OK, it is using Helvetica, about the most popular font in the world. Well, you are in trouble then, because there is no legal Helvectica package for Linux. But, you are in luck, thanks to the wonderfulness of Linux. All you need to do I write some obscure XML and put it in the /etc/fonts/local.font file, and all of the 'Hevetica' requests will be automatically changed to use Microsofts(!) Arial font. I do that, and lo and behold it does work.

OK, some I am doing some work with a maximizde window, and I move the mouse up to the lop right corner of the screen to close the window, and WTF! All of the windows on my desktop make a cute little circle, and I have to click on the window I wanted to close to make it active. Try to close it again, same thing! Oh, I see, I have to be very careful not to put the mouse all the way in the corner. I can't think of any reason I would want this behavior, so I want to turn it off. Should be easy, right? Just right-click on the desktop and there will be an option to turn that off, right? Nope. Well, I am stumped. Back to the web. Look, you stupid noob, that is not a desktop setting, it is a window manager setting. You must go into the 'Compiz Settings' app from the Control Center. Why didn't I think of that? It is plainly obvious that something called Compiz would be controlling what happens with my mouse! OK, I am in the Compiz settings, so where is the setting that says 'put the windows in a circle'? Aha! It is the one with a music note icon and the name of 'Scale'. Makes perfect sense. How could I be so stupid as to not know that?

OK, now it has been a few days, and I want to add one of my frequently-used programs to the 'Favorites' menu. Right-click on the Favorites menu - nothing. OK, I'll create it on the desktop. Lo and behold, there is a 'create launcher' function. I create the launcher. The icon shows up as a spring with a board on it, but I don't really care about that. Right click on the icon, and Tada! there is an 'Add to favorites' option. Click it. Absolutely nothing happens. Back to the web. No, you stupid noob, you did it wrong. You need to go into the .local/share/applications directly and manally create a launcher. That launcher will the show up in the 'Application Browser', and you can add it to the favorites from there.

I was never any kind of Windows fan, but I think I am starting become one after that experience.

Re:What a surprise

[bmo]

All you need to do I write some obscure XML and put it in the /etc/fonts/local.font file,

It's like it's last century! It's like I time-traveled back to 1998 and I'm ripping fonts from Microsoft disks and using the Font Deuglification FAQ!

Here's how you install a font in Linux.
Download font
Right click on it. Select "Install"

And you're done! Wow! SO FUCKING HARD!

more bullshit

I was never any kind of Windows fan, but I think I am starting become one after that experience.

Fine, stick to Windows, you liar.

--
BMO

Re:What a surprise

[yoshi_mon]

I am not going to disagree with your experience and even views on that experience. I've been there done that myself. (In fact what I tell my clients is often Windows on the desktop, *nix on the server.) Why is this so? Windows has been polishing their UI for decades now. There are times when I have a learning curve but overall I've been pleased with using Windows on my desktop from a UI perspective at least.

*nix has not been about that and it shows. One could argue that putting resources towards that at the expense of other things would be bad. I think that the reality is that given the way *nix is implemented with its design/funding/licensing/etc that it is not really possible to do so. Some have tried and have done arguably well at it, Ubuntu, but even there there can be issues. (Much in the same sense that there are issues with Windows. Nothing is ever going to be perfect for everyone.)

However getting back to your point, and I'll forgo this post about Win8 in any regard (IMO it is not a UI that I want on my desktop, period.), that even tech people want just something that work. Yes, I agree. There are going to be those people who are tech savvy who have time to play around with things but by in large they tend to be younger and or much older with the time to do so. When it comes to day to day stuff most tech people want at most the ability to customize something to their liking and then they get it there and do their work.

Re:What a surprise

[bws111]

Conveniently skipped over the 'can't find anywhere to legally get the Helvetica font', didn't you?

The 'make an XML file' was not for installing a font, it was for replacing a commonly used font that is not available.

Re:What a surprise

[humanrev]

OK, you're not gonna like this and will probably dismiss me as a Linux fanboy who's deliberately ignoring your problems (which wouldn't' be fair since I predominately run Windows 7), but...

Installation (RHEL 6) was very smooth, no problems.

RHEL is great for a stable, enterprise-level workstation distro but it kinda sucks for a desktop. There's a reason Red Hat doesn't focus much on the mainstream users side of things, and it shows in their desktops. Try using something like Linux Mint (MATE edition for a more classic GNOME experience). The fonts will be already fixed and Compiz won't be enabled unless you know what you're doing. So none of that hot-corner stuff you encountered.

Having said that, it (like all Linux distros) has weaknesses of a different sort you may encounter. Ultimately it was enough to make me go back to Windows (for the billionth time)... but maybe the next release will be better. I keep using and learning cross-platform programs like Inkscape, GIMP and Eclipse as a way of future-proofing my ability to move to Linux should the annoyances be reduced sufficiently at some point.

Re:What a surprise

[bmo]

And guess what? Helvetica isn't on Windows either. It's a commercial font you must buy to have. And this "hurr, you must make an .xml file" to replace another font is stupid, because after installing a font, you can just go to whatever control panel you use in Linux (kde's Gnome's, LXDE's, whatever) and set the font for the browser or desktop or whatever. Nobody *ever* goes to the command line anymore to install and use fonts. Not sane or smart people, anyway.

You're a moron *and* a liar.

--
BMO

Re:What a surprise

[T Murphy]

And guess what? Helvetica isn't on Windows either. It's a commercial font you must buy to have

No, you get Helvetica with Windows. You could argue it's a bundled license that isn't explicitly part of Windows, but I bet 99% of people who have Helvetica don't know you pay for fonts so you're really splitting hairs here.

You're a moron *and* a liar.

Hmmm.

Re:What a surprise

[blackorzar]

I think this kind of emails are helpful for linux desktop development. I agree with the firefox fonts. It should be out of the box on RHEL. This is the linux distribution most corporations knows. I'm not sure about system settings or desktop customization settings (because they are for power users).
I definitively would want to have an easy way to use an external projector/tv/monitor. And keep working on getting easier to configure wireless, bluetooth, volume settings.

Also, i would advise to think on corporate features for linux. They have been moving to web on last years. A good office+web linux box can be something they can use on some of their workstations, but it's a requirement that it should be easy to maintain. This is the hard part: You need to be able to change the settings from a central place, to change the proxy and other settings on firefox from a central place, to have rsync out of the box, to have samba and its new directory out of the box, to have a GUI for samba that allows to share the user's own files, to have a central way to change samba settings, to have a centralized backup system, to add fonts from central, to have a way to easily do a remote install/uninstall. To have a way to configure an easy menu with the permitted apps and the same on firefox (for webapps). Name it like coporate users want: Fedora Workstation or Ubuntu professional or OpenSuse corporate. If your concern is how linux can go in the corporate world, well corporate is actually one of Linux's strenghts. Corporations uses it on their mission critical services. The hard job (tech approval) is done. It makes sense if it lowers costs, not only licensing ones but maintenance and support.
Many of the tools are there: samba, puppet, bacula, mondo. Some of them requires some polish for the end user (e.g. a way to see which backups are done on your workstation and to recover it, a way to add easily network shares).
I'm sure desktop is a problem on meeting user's need. Ask google and android.

Re:What a surprise

[rastos1]

Excuse me. (how do heck do I list installed fonts on Windows 7 ? ... ok, back from the web)

PS C:\Windows\Fonts> [System.Reflection.Assembly]::LoadWithPartialName("System.Drawing")
PS C:\Windows\Fonts> $objFonts = New-Object System.Drawing.Text.InstalledFontCollection
PS C:\Windows\Fonts> $objFonts.Families | Select-String -Pattern "Helvetica"
PS C:\Windows\Fonts>

Where is this Helvetica font that comes with Windows?

Wow

[JustAnotherIdiot]

How deep into Google did you have to dig to find someone that likes that trashy artwork?

Re:First TROLL

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice catch (on the Seattle thing).

Let me summarize:

WINDOWS 8 IS AWESOME, WOW THIS RULES, ZOMG
WINDOWS 8 IS AWESOME, WOW THIS RULES, ZOMG
WINDOWS 8 IS AWESOME, WOW THIS RULES, ZOMG
WINDOWS 8 IS AWESOME, WOW THIS RULES, ZOMG

(but for some reason I like Linux) but anyway

WINDOWS 8 IS AWESOME, WOW THIS RULES, ZOMG
WINDOWS 8 IS AWESOME, WOW THIS RULES, ZOMG
WINDOWS 8 IS AWESOME, WOW THIS RULES, ZOMG

looks like 'stealth shill' to me...

Apt description?

[leromarinvit]

Most artists don't like people messing with their artworks. So maybe the lack of customizability is a reflection of that. Linux OTOH is more like a mechanic's (or artist's, for that matter) toolbox. It usually looks like shit, but it can take a beating and still get the job done. And nobody is going to look at you funny if you rearrange things to your liking.

I can certainly understand the author. My home looks a lot more like a toolbox filled with random useful (and some not so useful) things than an architecture exhibit. And no matter how pretty they may look, I wouldn't want to live in one.

Re:Apt description?

[Arker]

Semantics is important and this is a good example of why. 'Linux' and 'Windows' are apples and oranges. Linux doesnt specify or include any sort of GUI, it's just a darned good kernel you are allowed to build whatever you want on top of it.

Re:Apt description?

[leromarinvit]

Did I say anything aginst that notion? Of course it is - that's just what I meant! "Linux the kernel" is just a part in the toolbox that is "Linux the desktop OS". You can change it all you want. You can even replace it, e.g. Debian kFreeBSD. Of course, nobody would call the result Linux, but since it uses the same userspace, it shares many if not most use-visible properties.

Yeah, I was imprecise in referring to "Linux" instead of "Free *NIX" in general. Or probably even just "monolithic, closed architecture" vs "open, flexible architecture". Typical GNU/Linux distros are just great examples of the latter.

Re:Apt description?

[Arker]

Eh, I didnt think I was disagreeing with you originally, just trying to point out how the loose semantics muddled your point. Looking back I did poor job of that, sorry. But now I do disagree with you. There is no, can be no, "Linux the desktop OS" only various desktop OSs that use linux (and moreso GNU.) The difference is important. You can compare, say, a specific version of Debian, or Redhat, or Slack, or whatever to Windows, but you cannot compare 'linux' to windows that just doesnt make any sense. People that really do understand what they are talking about still confuse themselves by talking so loosely about it, and people that arent very technically adept can be powerfully mislead.

Concern troll

[Anonymous Coward]

is concerned but ultimately agrees with you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)#Concern_troll

heh

[zerodl]

"Linux Is 'a Work of Art.' But It's No Windows" The way people are talking about Windows 8 lately, there might be more interest in Linux.

To some, Goatse is a work of art, too

[BenJeremy]

Windows 8 will be great on tablets and phones. Laptops? perhaps 20% less annoying than desktops, where Win8 is a UI fail. Touchscreen UIs are not useful for desktops. We've had touchscreens for ages, but nobody wants to spend 8+ hours a day using gestures, nor does the idea of cheetos-stained fingers smudging up the screen excite me in the least (not that my fingers are cheetos-stained, but I've known plenty of people who fit this general type).

If removing UI elements is your idea of a "Dream OS" then perhaps you don't need a general purpose PC at all. Stick to a tablet or your phone and you'll be happy forever.

Re:To some, Goatse is a work of art, too

[WuphonsReach]

Windows 8 will be great on tablets and phones.

And will still be a distant finisher in that space. iPad/iPhone/Android have the dominant market share and given Microsoft's past proven abilities to fuck it up, I don't see them changing that.

Not even with Microsoft Surface, which makes the OEMs even more likely to go Android then before.

So are ...

[PPH]

... works by Pablo Picasso. But I'll be damned if I can figure them out.

Re:So are ...

[fm6]

You're not supposed to "figure them out". You're supposed to look at them. If you stop worrying about how strange Picasso's work is (why should a computer geek, of all people, be put off by "strange"?) and just try to enjoy the dude's sense of color, form, and play, you might get somewhere.

Please note: I'm not an artistic type. (Though some people like my casual phone pictures, for reasons that are a mystery to me.) I'm just an aging computer geek who enjoys looking at stuff,

Re:So are ...

[lexidation]

Virtually every major art movement of the twentieth century (and the present century) can be traced in a straight line back to Picasso in some phase. His importance has far less to do with whether or not you "like" him than it does with the incredible fecundity of his ideas and his perceptual acuity -- and what they gave birth to. Not to engage in artspeak, but it's true.

It's strange to be on a site where so many discussions take place at a satisfying level of understanding and yet find opinions about art that I would expect from the mouth of my 83-year-old aunt, sitting in her room full of doggie pictures and sunset seascapes.

Re:So are ...

[Ash-Fox]

I'm often dismayed by the piece of crap art that is sold for stupid amounts of money (at least four digits) while some of the most beautiful art is often available in two digits. Then again, I shouldn't complain too loudly, because I wouldn't be able to afford it then.

pablo

[Cyko_01]

Yea, a work of art, like picaso. That doesn't make it user friendly. The fact that you said linux is better pretty much sums it all up - it is good but not the best on the market

Re:pablo

[geekoid]

Did you read the article? He like linux because he can right click and remove stuff from the desk top.
That's it. In short, he uses linux to support and image.
BTW, you can get rid of tiles wit a right click as well, so his hole premise for liking Linux more is based on ignorance.

Windows 8, who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

There was one comment from a keynote speech by John Carmack a few week ago. And for all the rest of the talk that was brilliant, this comment was the most relevant. And that was that he an iD recently switched from Windows Xp to Windows 7. And that yeah, it was nice. It was a bit better in a lot of areas, it did one technical thing a lot better. But for the most part, he just didn't care.

And for that matter neither did I when I made the same switch. Certainly, I wouldn't go back if I were just given a free and clear choice. But really, there's just not a whole lot there, to ANY new iteration of ANY operating system. It doesn't matter what you're a fan of, because each new iteration is just something of an update, for compatibility with whatever new hardware is out. For the most part there's nothing there to get excited about, I mean we're down to arguing tiny UI semantics. Windows 8, a work of art? It doesn't look that much different than Windows 7, nor does it do almost anything different. In fact the biggest change, of the start menu to start screen, is a bit worse for some people. But only a bit, so who cares?

So, why are people excited? Because we're nerds, because we're reading comments on /. and the internet is a great place to argue. But really, it doesn't matter that much. In fact it's beginning to matter so little that I'm wondering if it's worth it to even have inane arguments over anymore. And sure, it's a pastime as boring and pointless to outsiders as baseball is to many. But what I'm saying here is, arguments over the latest OS update are beginning to smell like fans arguing over a handful of old, decrepit has been teams, when there's a bunch of younger, more exciting lineups out there that could be providing a lot more entertainment.

Re:Windows 8, who cares?

[neminem]

Who cares? A lot of people who actually use their OS's GUI for stuff on a daily basis. All of whom, the moment they're forced to use Win8, will first go complain about it on a random forum, and then go download 3rd party apps to get everything back the way it was.

So I guess you're right.

Vive la différence!

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

"Variety is the spice of life."

Wait, this is Slashdot. Sorry. Ok, it's a reference to human sexuality and how different chicks are endlessly intriguing.

Recession, dammit!

[PopeRatzo]

What is it about Linux that makes me so excited to use it?

Price, price, and price.

Re:Recession, dammit!

[fm6]

Since you can't buy a new PC without paying for Windows (even if it's not installed) price is pretty much beside the point.

Re:Recession, dammit!

[PopeRatzo]

Since you can't buy a new PC without paying for Windows (even if it's not installed) price is pretty much beside the point.

But I don't have to upgrade to the latest Windows.

Once I've bought my computer, is the price of upgrading from XP to 7 to 8 also baked into the cake?

This isn't 1999 any more. There are a lot of people who are trying to get a few extra years' service out of their older machines.

Now I don't know what a Windows 8 upgrade is going to cost, but even $50 is not a trivial expense for a lot of people.

Re:Recession, dammit!

[fm6]

People who have XP usually stick with XP. They might replace it with Linux because they think Linux is better, or they might upgrade to 7 or 8 because they have to run software that's not supported on XP or because there's some new feature they want. Either way, the fact that Linux is free is irrelevant.

Re:Recession, dammit!

[PopeRatzo]

You're right, but I wasn't really trying to speak for anyone but myself.

When my wife needed a few machines on which to do fluid dynamics simulations, we found three old HP workstations. We would have used Windows or Linux, since fourier transforms can be done on either OS, but the price of three licenses of Windows 7, even for a member of the mathematics faculty, we just went ahead and installed Linux. I'm not particularly skilled with Linux, but the setup was a breeze, the UI was very nice, it looked good and ran those month-long simulations like a champ. With the money we saved, we were able to buy other things.

Re:Recession, dammit!

[fm6]

Why did you need to install an OS at all? I'm guessing the original Windows installs had been wiped or were to screwed up to work with, But you could have done a fresh install using the original license keys (which are probably on a certificate pasted to the sides of the computer). Of course the license keys might be lost, and obtaining installation media is a pain But neither of these are cost issues.

Which is not to say that using Linux wasn't a smart move, even if Windows keys and media were available. For your task you needed an OS that doesn't impose a lot of overhead, is easy to install and maintain, and can run for long periods without glitching. None of these criteria apply to Windows.

Re:Recession, dammit!

[PopeRatzo]

Why did you need to install an OS at all?

Oh, my source for the three HP workstations had removed the hard drives and any Windows stickers that would have had serial numbers. I've seen that done before in second-hand computers.

Right now, the machines are still running simulations, but as a cluster. They seem like pretty good. They were hella expensive new, I bet. They had workstation graphics cards and fast processors and I got them for a couple hundred each. For some reason, one of them had a souped up 8800 graphics card and slightly slower AMD processors, so we gave that one to my daughter on which she runs Matlab and Diablo 3.

Re:Recession, dammit!

[fm6]

Doesn't Diablo 3 require Windows?

When I've bought used computers (usually off-lease machine sold online) the license stickers were still there. I guess it depends on the history of the machine.

I'll bite

[wonkey_monkey]

And yet, at the end of the day, I am right back to using Linux. Why is that?

Because you're a human being and we all have different opinions. For some reason yours have been promoted to a Slashdot article, but for the life of me I can't figure out why.

At first...but then

[lilfields]

At first I had vowed there was NO WAY I was going to pay to put Windows 8 on my desktop or laptop, but...after seeing these new laptop/tablet hybrids being announced, I think a Windows 8 machine is in short order...and Stardock announced a free tool to put your start menu back, while still allowing you to run Metro apps (something I'm sure Microsoft will add itself eventually) all sort of makes me think...$25? Sure, why not? I actually thought I was going to get a Surface too, but now all these prototypes are coming out and well, I'm very happy as a consumer and Windows user, this will be a good Fall for Microsoft. I think people will hate it a first, but I don't think Windows 8 is going to be the train wreck (including me) that people thought it might be.

Slashdot is probably the wrong place to ask this..

[apcullen]

But honestly, what is attractive about windows 8? I admit, I have never used it. But to me it looks god-awful. Just terrible. A completely disorganized mish-mash of ugly tiles. I look at it and can't see how it's supposed to work.

The reviews RAVE about it, but it still looks terrible to me, and none of the reviewers have ever managed to explain what exactly is so good about it.

Can somebody take a stab at telling me just what the appeal is?

Re:Oh really!

[Farmer Tim]

Some people find their tools a source of endless excitement. A word for such people is "wankers".

I think the point about the article is made...

I Love all of them, I hate most of them.

[Fri13]

First, you are not talking about operating systems but graphical user interfaces.

But to the point.

My personal opinion is that I love OS X look and simplicity. And I love(d) GNOME 2.x simplicity and pastel look.
But I can not stand neither of them in my computer as I want to do more than copy few files from USB-stick to desktop and use WWW-browser or listen music and watch videos.
(For me, even moving some files with Finder is pain in the ass unless they are right front of me.)

I want to love Metro (or what other name MS will choose for it, hopefully as good as "Metro") as it is what Unix is about, information front of you. Metro is doing something what I dreamed and designed 15 years ago (I even have hundreds of designs stored in closet), but still it is doing it wrong way, by disturbing user, by hiding elements, functions and making simple things too complex (Like easy way to open directory in Finder by simply pressing enter on it when browsing with arrow keys).

So far, only GUI what pleases me on desktop/laptop use is KDE. And especially KDE4 started to do it great.
The customization is the key. Please, just give user a pure and clear GUI and then easy way to _add_ features what they want (contrary to your saying, you want to _remove_ things, I think it should be that people can "opt-in" just by adding features what they need.) and then get the GUI look and work as they need and want, not as one designed in company sees it should work (they can do the very basic usability things, like you can not so easily by mistake delete file or rename directory etc).

But when it comes to tablet, smartphone and even netbook usage, I just love Android 4.0 on them. The style, it is very informative and widgets gives the possibility to have exactly the wanted specific information right under your finger with interactive function (what Live Tiles do not offer at all) and otherwise just the apps with the oldest and purest human understandable way. If you want to nail something, you take hammer and nail and you just hit it where wanted. If you want to cut something, you take saw and you just use it.
The original Unix idea, one tool for one task. It is just so wise and awesome, why even command line interface is so awesome when compared to GUI in many basic cases (like copying files, renaming, moving, archiving, emailing, encrypting etc).

Last few years the trend has been that files need to be queried trough search and automatic filtering systems. Like the computer would know right away what you need and want (I am pointing my finger to you KDE community with activities!). Just give very simple and fast search for files, like Google search web pages (as it is said, it is silly that we can find pages from Internet faster than files from others computer).
I love organized file hierarchic in manner where others can understand easily what is in directories and what file is about by its name.

But when it comes to actually quickly choose and group bunch of files and do something complex to them graphically, there seems not to be better tool than Automator in OS X (unless you count scripting for shell in all Unix systems).

So what Microsoft has done right? They made the GUI touchable with big enough buttons (tiles) what was reason why Windows 7 SUCKED for any tablet computer (I have used 27" touchscreen with Windows 7 and it just was terrible two weeks). And that they got the idea that information should be easy to get presented in wanted form.

BUT.....

Metro SUCKS!

Android is getting again something much better. Chameleon is coming launcher for Android (tablets only?) http://chameleon.teknision.com/ and it is exactly having what I have found most oldery (and young) people to need. To have information at one glance available for them, depending their task, location or time (one awesome app for Android is the Tasker https://play.goog

Wow.

[sootman]

"Guy prefers something; blogs about it" is front-page news now? Even more so, "Guy prefers old thing he's grown used to over many years"?

Personally, I like OS X the most. I'm sure we could find other people who think Windows XP, 7, or 8 are the best. What was the point of this again?

Gerald Holmes

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that you?
Oblig

I don't want a work of art

[Chris Mattern]

The "Mona Lisa" is a work of art, but I can't use it to get my work done. I want a *tool*.

Re:I don't want a work of art

[geekoid]

Why can't tools have style? I have a hand forged roofers hammer and it is a beautiful work to look at, and it great for roofing.

Re:I don't want a work of art

[TeknoHog]

IMHO, the best tools are beautiful because of their honest functional design. To me, most computer cases are ugly because of unnecessary cruft, and the same goes for user interfaces. This is why I use Gentoo on a Powerbook.

Re:The OS Is Irrelevant...Resistance Is Futile

[ThunderBird89]

And as long as the proper libraries/headers/whatnot are supplied, how is a program written in, say, C/C++ for Windows different from one written in the same language for Linux?

[IANAP] Ideally, the most important libraries would be supplied with the OS, and you would only need the hardware-specific ones (which should already be on the system, since you're using the hardware), so that the same source code would compile the same way across all platforms, no code changes needed. [/IANAP]

Re:The OS Is Irrelevant...Resistance Is Futile

[Maow]

No it is not, you fscking moron. Ulgh...

/reaction to morons who found their way to /.

If you mod this down, may God strike you dead at once.

--
You and I are both universe. We all are. So why get 'personal'? ;-)

Interesting conflict between post content & signature.

Re:The OS Is Irrelevant...Resistance Is Futile

[V!NCENT]

Cool. Have you met my friend John Cloud, the super scaleable, next generation Operating System, virtualizing your stupid API? :)

Re:The OS Is Irrelevant...Resistance Is Futile

[V!NCENT]

I could explain why I wrote that, but the fact remains that you are right ;-)

JFK

[NotFamous]

It'a also not a Jack Kennedy.

Re:The OS Is Irrelevant...Resistance Is Futile

[V!NCENT]

Good question. It all boils down to the fact that the operating systems have scheduling differences and can't run together, unless virtualised. Unless you intend to ship a program with all of its dependancies, but I'm not so sure that a simple app plus 123terrabyte of Vista is practical and legal to distribute ;-) Let alone run...

My oppinion, sorta.

[Anonymous Coward]

I configured my Debian box so that it greets me with a matte black screen. Not even a cli. I have to ^t-c to have that. Whenever I open up a program, it takes fullscreen. No taskbar, no surrouding bar or top menu or whatever. Nothing. There's a keybaord shortcut for everything that would normally be done via mouse.

I really like that.

And yeah, that's kinda weird to prefer an OS for some interface tweak, but there's a more fundamental message to catch here: Linux lets you do whatever you want. OSX locks you up in a very, very well designed golden cage. Windows is a bit more tweakable, but there are things that you can't do, like getting rid of the entire graphical layer. Or like code up another one. Linux lets you do that. Free as in free beer, free speech and as in "this is a bunch of Legos. You're free to either follow the plan, or just do whatever you want with them". And I like it, even if that sometimes means that I delete my network manager and that I can't use apt to reinstall it. Hell...

Re:The OS Is Irrelevant...Resistance Is Futile

[Maow]

I could explain why I wrote that, but the fact remains that you are right ;-)

Well - that response was a surprising one - and a good one.

Cheers

Re:Slashdot is probably the wrong place to ask thi

[93 Escort Wagon]

But honestly, what is attractive about windows 8? I admit, I have never used it. But to me it looks god-awful. Just terrible. A completely disorganized mish-mash of ugly tiles. I look at it and can't see how it's supposed to work.

You've heard the advice "make it so simple a 5-year-old could use it", right? Well, unfortunately the head of Windows development is a bit hard of hearing - he thought they said "make it look like a 5-year-old designed it".

A Work of Art?

[Rob_Bryerton]

Now hold on a minute, there's lots of different kinds of art.

Is it art, as in Manzoni's "Merda d'artista"?

Re:First TROLL

[brentrad]

I didn't realize every single person that works in IT in Seattle works for Microsoft.

Maybe

[geekoid]

you can't find out how to easily remove panels, but don't pout that on people who actually learn the system. RC->Remove panel.
and this :
"The lack of virii (I know people usually say “viruses”, but “virii” just sounds cooler)? "
viruses sounds cooler, virii is at best, ignorant. Since you know better, then it's just being fucking stupid. Stop it, we have enough dim witted morons without you needing to play at one because you feel it's 'cooler'.

In short, you make technical decisions on 'what's cooler'. As such, you are worthless.

Full screen bash and vim

[GrandTeddyBearOfDoom]

I write in LaTeX, compiling from the command line, using bash and vim. This is easy with Linux and a pain in the butt with Windows. On the other hand, Linux doesn't run Ableton.

Re:Slashdot is probably the wrong place to ask thi

[__aaqvdr516]

Windows 8 is like anime. Ask me about Ranma, Tenchi, Prince of Tennis, or INSERT_YOUR_FAVORITE_ANIME_HERE, and by the time I'm done explaining the basics of the anime you'll likely wonder what the hell I'm talking about.

Then there are the people who've watched anime. They just get it. That's kind of what Windows 8 is. Once you've seen it live it might just make sense. You might hate it because you don't understand it (like Serial Experiments Lain or the end of Evangelion) but hell...it's still anime...and it's still Windows.

Re:Win 8 is... well, it's what I want in an OS.

[0111 1110]

You realize that your whole post is indistinguishable from ad copy, right?

Not a lot of right-click-remove in ANY Windows

[dtjohnson]

I rarely use Windows and then only because something absolutely requires it. Like the TFA author, removing unwanted cruft from the desktop (and system) is a key reason I dislike Windows. For example, Windows Update repeatedly nagged to install Windows Media Player 11 (the newest one) which I finally did to watch (I thought) DVDs. However, as many of you probably know, Windows Media Player 11 will NOT play DVDs. Instead, it advises you that the necessary decoder is not present on the system and points you to places where you can purchase the decoder 'plugin' for a price of anywhere from $15 to $30. Okay, fine, now it's time to dump (uninstall) the newly-installed Media Player 11 but...not so easy is that. It can only be removed by (according to Microsoft) either 1) booting to safe mode and running something called 'appwiz.cpl' or, if 1) doesn't work, then 2) running something as '%windir%\$ntUninstallwmp11$\spuninst\spuninst.exe'. This is just one small example but, generally, Microsoft decides what the user should install, use and see and then makes it extremely difficult for you if you try to stray off of the reservation.

Re:Not a lot of right-click-remove in ANY Windows

[El_Oscuro]

It is nice to know that Windows users can now get that "Linux" experience with DVD codecs. At least in Linux you can get them free. Even better once you get them installed, you can watch DVD's without having to watch "unskippable" commericals! It just takes you to the main menu. It is almost a reason to set up a Linux PC for use as a dedicated DVD player. :)

Mac users can also get the "Linux" experience syncing music with their iPhones. Recently, I got an new iPhone as well as a new iMac. However, it seems that my brand new iPhone is not compatible with the version of iTunes that is installed on my brand new Mac. WTF??? It says I need a newer version of iTunes but repeated attempts to download and install it have failed, either saying the install is corrupted or just not working. It is not like I can just run "apt-get update iTunes".

Re:The OS Is Irrelevant...Resistance Is Futile

[ThunderBird89]

As I said, I'm not a programmer by trade, but source code itself isn't affected by "scheduling differences", is it? I thought the appropriate compiler would take care of that when compiling the executable.

This compiler could include the most important libraries that are needed for OS functions, with and it might not even have to deal with device-native libraries, given that they are already abstracted by the operating system. From there on, the programmer could include all platform-specific versions of the core libraries, and the compilers at the end-point would simply ignore the dependencies from the wrong OSs (sort of like the pragma flags of C/C++, I guess?). At least, that's how I view it, speaking as a layman...

Windows 8 is art?

[Opportunist]

Yes. I even claim it's modern art. Let's see:

Looks kinda pretty or cool? Check.
Makes people think and ponder about its purpose? Check.
Makes people talk about it? Check.
Serves no practical purpose? Check.
Is overpriced eye candy? Check.

Re:First TROLL

[Opportunist]

I can't really follow you, I just don't see it.

The stealth, that is.

This is a pretty...

[sudden.zero]

...interesting customization for Windows 8

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9225016/Free_tool_restores_Start_button_to_Windows_8

It is made by the same people who made Window Blinds and it supposedly adds a "Start" button to Windows 8. So if you are one of those people that misses the "Start" button then your answer lies above.

Re:This is a pretty...

[tftp]

The Start8 software indeed restores the button. However it does not restore the menu. Furthermore, it breaks the default Windows key action (activate the start screen.)

Once you click on the button it brings up an ugly mix of tiles; the only difference from the start screen is that *all* tiles are shown, and the panel that contains them is rooted in the desktop.

A better implementation would simply restore the classical menu and/or the Win7/Vista menu, with draggable items on white background that are arranged in expandable groups.

I am not sure if Start8 is a solution or a problem. I cannot recommend installing it.

Re:This is a pretty...

[sudden.zero]

Good to know. I have never used it just came across it the other day and thought it might be worth mentioning.

you have too much time

[Osgeld]

"What is it about Linux that makes me so excited to use it"

you have to much time to faf about getting your OS to do something useful rather than doing something useful with your OS, thats what.

Call me when it can copy or delete...

[Radical Moderate]

a couple hundred files without freezing up for ten minutes while it calculates god knows what. I know, I'm an unreasonable bastard, expecting the worlds largest software maker to make an OS that can handle something as obscure as deleting files. And they've only had about 30 years to work on this.

But the pretty progress bar, well that's a serious step in the right direction.

Installed Windows 8 this week

[Shemmie]

The one thing that really, really pissed me off was that for single-sign-on you seem to be tied to Microsoft. I know, it's hardly a shock, and it's the same as Apple. But I wish that the concept of Account Providers from Android had rubbed off on them. Sure, they could offer the 'premium' facility, as they know their platform better than anyone. But in this day and age when people are picking cloud providers to go with, it would be wonderful to have the opportunity to use 'your' provider of choice, and have them plug in to the OS via shared API's.

I know why they've done it - to tie you in and maximize the use of the Windows Store and ecosystem. But it's frustrating that we're increasingly 'locked in' to the platforms we use - be it MS or Apple.

And before anyone points out I could opt for a local account - you're right, I could. But the benefits of an Internet-based roaming profile is pretty neat. I just wish the syncing mechanism was accessible to third parties, to really get some competition going.

Re:The OS Is Irrelevant...Resistance Is Futile

[geekoid]

It is possible to write C++ code that can be compiled for different platforms. You need to have the compiler skip certain pieces of code using a directive like #ifdef..

While it s"more work" it's not really that hard.

Gnome 3 will fix that for you!

[tconnors]

Don't worry, Gnome3 will remove that option for you. That's too much choice for the stupid user to understand! It might be confusing if someone removes a panel item! Gnome devs know better than you what you want on your own computer!

Re:The OS Is Irrelevant...Resistance Is Futile

[V!NCENT]

At some point, the CPU needs to be touched. It's a little technical, but the CPU can only do one thing at a time, and the code can put the CPU in specific states. So when the Vista kernel says: put this into ram and load that page... At which point does the Linux app get to say: "w-wait a second! It's my turn to load some of me there! Hey I want to load that from the harddrive there!"? ;-)

Vista doesn't suspend to disk untill you tell it to, and then you need to startup the computer manualy and load up the Linux app ;-)

Imagine you have two apps that require two kernels, say; busdrivers, and there is only one bus (computer), with only one steeringwheel and one drivers seat... Well...

Virtual Desktops

[Mandrel]

From my perspective, the most important UI advantage of Linux distributions over Windows is built-in support for virtual desktops, though there are several virtual desktop Windows add-ons available.

Re:Virtual Desktops

[Nivag064]

I have heard that you can sorta run virtual desktops on Microsoft boxen, but never ever seen a Microsoft box with them. Yet I saw a Unix box with virtual desktops 1994, now Microsoft has had only about 18 years to catch up...

Hmmmm

[bsercombe72]

Astroturfing much?

It might look like a work of art but..

[JustNiz]

It wastes far too much valuable screen space on pointless eye candy and takes more time and operations than to do the same thing in windows 7.
Its therefore a massive downgrade in the things that actually matter: usability and productivity.

Re:Oh really!

[bsercombe72]

Some people find their tool is a source of endless excitement. A word for such people is "wankers".

There... I fixed if for you.

Microsoft, Mac, Linux, I like them all...

[DevotedSkeptic]

But I really like linux. there is just something about the warm cozy feeling you get when that terminal window opens up and you can customize anything, given enough time and knowledge. I like my windows PC's too and my Mac experiences have been mostly favorable (no darn right click...) There is a community for each of these OS's but the linux community can actually steer the os in ways that most others cannot. Again I like them all, but I love Linux.

Re:Slashdot is probably the wrong place to ask thi

[cbhacking]

The appeal of the tiles: they provide at-a-glance information. I can see how many emails, IMs, Facebook notifications and messages, and so on are waiting for me, without launching anything. I can see the current weather, or a forecast. I can track a friend's status updates, etc. Yeah, it's all pretty basic stuff, but it really does improve the experience a bit. Too bad I spend virtually no time in the Start screen...

The appeal of Metro-style apps: sandboxed, simple UI, can subscribe to a simple inter-process "sharing" system. Can display live updates on their tiles. I feel that the simplicity is taken too far, but for a lot of users, that's probably the level they want.

The appeal of the Marketplace: app discovery, automatic app updates, apps have been vetted for safety, apps follow you from PC to PC, you can get and leave ratings on apps. One of the best user-facing features of Win8, in my opinion, if it weren't for the looming walled garden aspect.

The appeal of the desktop: mutli-monitor taskbar and wallpapers that can cover multiple monitors too. Window chrome that updates along with the background slideshow (a suprisingly pleasant visual effect). Vastly improved file management UIs.

The appeal of Live ID integration: use your Live ID to log into your PC, have access to your documents and apps and bookmarks and contacts and calendar, have your settings remembered, be able to reset your password through an alternate email account, automatic integration with Live ID-based services.

The appeal of the features: ISO mounting, Client Hyper-V, reset/refresh (restore the PC to a specific snapshot state, or remove all user changes entirely). The ability to track your data usage (for built-in cellular chips, for example) and limit certain actions to while on WiFi or other unlimited networking. Anti-virus (basically, Security Essentials) now built into Defender.

The behind-the-scenes appeal: lower memory usage. Faster startup. Lots of new or improved exploit mitigations (like ForceASLR to mandate relocating DLLs linked without the /DYNAMICBASE flag).

That's not an exhaustive list, by any means. However, it should give you a good idea of the kinds of things people like in Win8. I personally think the Start screen (with the tiles) looks awful and is a pain to use, but fortunately, I don't have to. I launch programs by just typing the start of their name and hitting Enter, or by hitting Winkey+R and typing the binary name.

Re:Oh really!

[Farmer Tim]

Either is grammatically correct, since more than one person implies more than one tool (though it's a big world, so I wouldn't rule out some kind of time-sharing arrangement in some cases).

Why do I use Linux, not Windows?

[jandersen]

Simple: Linux is useful and fun for my purposes. In Linux (and other UNIXes), if a thing is logically possible, then it is by and large also possible to simply go and do it. In Windows I have always run in to what seems like arbitrary limitations on what I am allowed to do.

Re:Slashdot is probably the wrong place to ask thi

[Ash-Fox]

I thought it was obvious... Windows 8 appeals to squares... Litterally.

Re:The OS Is Irrelevant...Resistance Is Futile

[Ash-Fox]

Actually, if you use mingw on Windows, you don't need to worry about the Windows way of doing things. Also, using a common toolkit available between both platforms such as Qt would help with GUI issues.

MATE desktop on Linux Mint 13.

[bejiitas_wrath]

The MATE desktop on Linux Mint 13 suits me just fine, I see no need to move to something like a giant Windows Phone styled interface.

Real comparison should be W7 vs W8

[mapkinase]

Vista failed because it was worse than XP. W7 succeeded because it was better than Vista and XP.

Switch on a large scale between Linux desktops and Windows desktop is a giant step compared to imminent pressure in many organizations to make a choice between staying on W7 and switching to W8.

Bring me that comparison

Re:Real comparison should be W7 vs W8

[mapkinase]

This speaks for itself:

http://zapp5.staticworld.net/images/article/2012/03/1187158-office20productivity-11338860.png

from

http://www.pcworld.com/article/252383/windows_8_preview_beats_windows_7_in_most_performance_tests.html

I've actually used Windows 8...

[digitalsolo]

I've actually attempted to run the most recent RC of Windows 8. I put it on my laptop, which is normally a Windows 7 system; I have too many issues with the "Clickpad" on it under various Linux flavors, as well as a need for Photoshop. It seems to run very well, and "feels" a bit snappier than 7 which already runs well on the system, a Sandy Bridge i5 w/ 6 Gb of RAM, Nvidia Optimus graphics and a 750GB 7200 RPM spinny disk.

For bog standard use, which is most of what I use the laptop for, aka web browsing, couple terminal windows and some graphic and photo editing, it works fine and is not much different than Windows 7. That was the case, until I installed a couple utilities than tried to use them a few days later. It took me a few minutes to realize I had to type search for them because they don't show up in any of the "panels" in metro. Not to mention previewing pictures wants to launch a huge full screen app that you have to close out of. Oh, and that app doesn't scroll through the pictures nicely either, it seemed like a weak implementation of iPhoto. I spent ~4 weeks running 8 on the laptop before I couldn't tolerate the productivity hit any longer, and went back to Windows 7.

It really does seem like they have made some good improvements to it's bones, it's just the horrid interface change (for anything non-touch) that seems to do nothing but slow me down. As I noted, for the basic Facebook/Web/email user, sure, it's probably fine, but even in that case, it's not BETTER than 7, it's just... different. Definitely not what I would consider a "work of art", though I suppose it's better than some things I've seen in museums.

For a point of reference on my opinions above, I try to be an equal opportunity OS guy; I have owned MacBooks (and find OSX to be a nice OS, I have few complaints with it), have run Linux desktops quite a bit (mostly Fedora and older Ubuntu versions), and generally run Windows on my "daily driver" computers. I actually HAVE used most popular distros and Windows/Mac release in the past 10 years.

Windows 8 is totally a "Work of Art"

[neminem]

Harvey Mudd students have long used the word "artistic" euphemistically, from an immortal conversation that occurred many years ago, about a Counterstrike map being played at a LAN party at the time:
  "[The bomb sites] are...artistic."
  "And by 'artistic', you mean 'stupid'."
  "Yes."

Also, later in the evening:
  "We've taken an 'interesting' route. And by 'interesting', I mean 'dumb'."
  "I thought that was 'artistic'..."

Or you can start with a clean desktop

[FritzSolms]

Or you can start with a clean desktop and not have to remove anything. Try XMonad :)

NO

[Cherubim1]

Windows 8 is a work of faeces. It looks foul, it stinks and nobody wants it.