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EVE Online CSM and Diplomat Killed in Libyan Consulate Attacks
New submitter overmoderated writes first with news of an attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya. From the article: "The U.S. ambassador to Libya and three other embassy staff were killed in a rocket attack on their car, a Libyan official said, as they were rushed from a consular building stormed by militants denouncing a U.S.-made film insulting the Prophet Mohammad."
An anonymous reader adds: "Sean Smith, a.k.a. Vile Rat, an EVE Online CSM member, and diplomat for the GoonFleet corporation, was one of the four killed in the attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya last night. He was 34. A fundraiser is being organized for his children by the Something Awful forums."
Update: 09/12 21:28 GMT by U L : Ozma from Something Awful mailed in a link to the memorial thread on the SA forums (including details on the memorial fund).
'Nuff said.
rip vile rat.
To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
So... if we remove that, the story wouldn't be here at all then right?
Libya had it all going on, till the western nations went in and fucked everything up. They were closer to a true democracy than just about any other nation on earth, had both oil and fresh water
Oh yeah, it was a veritable utopia ... wait, I mean [citation needed].
is here.
(how did story get posted w/o a link?)
coding is life
You will live forever in are harts.
Goondolences.
He might be known to a lot of geeks who play the game. Stop being an asshole.
Right. What relevance does it have as "news for nerds" otherwise?
If you think that Libya was "closer to a true democracy" under Gaddafi, you're outright insane.
Yeah, the islamists that came to replace him are worse. But it was no rose garden there before that, and human rights violations were routine.
So, an EVE Online CSM 'got what he deserved'... how exactly? You have some major rage issues against EVE? Read the article, Sean Smith was the EVE CSM... Chris Stevens was the ambassador. Even then, how would an AMBASSADOR at a consulate deserve to die over anything? Did he set policy? Did he do ANYTHING to these people? Again with a lack of reading... this was in response to a bunch of insecure religious extremists going, as quoted above, 'bat shit crazy' over a movie they didn't like regarding their reverred Prophet Mohammad. So, here's your reasoning in a nutshell. Because a Libyan Christian living in California made a movie supporting his belief that the Muslim faith is a dangerous cancer (his words), these men deserved to die. Hopefully these same folks never see any of these movies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_about_Muhammad Or we may just have WW3 on our hands....
If they were so well provided for and happy with the job Gaddafi was doing why did they rebel?
So, I say from the bottom of my heart, fuck you, Sean Smith. You got what you deserved.
See? This is the problem with radicals; they believe innocent individuals need to suffer for the disagreements of others.
People will pass up steak once a week, for crap every day.
He wasn't a diplomat he was a tech guy working in the consulate. I can understand the confusion, Sean Smith aka Vile Rat was a diplomat for the eve online alliance Goonswarm and a former member of the CSM.
He leaves behind two kids so presumably it would go towards them and any funeral costs.
He was a "diplomat" in EVE Online. In real life, he did IT work for the consulate -- he wasn't a diplomat nor any particularly wealthy, privileged person. He's just an ordinary guy doing IT work.
vile rat was a csm diplomat for eve online and one of the original goons. csm diplos fly to iceland to discuss game balance.
To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
He's not making a scientific claim that requires proof, he's stating a bit of history which was something that millions of people were very aware of. Stop being lazy and look for yourself.
That's why I was asking ... I did and it sounds pretty shitty. It was "closer to a true democracy than just about any other nation on earth (sic)" and that's why it was ruled by one man, Muammar Gaddafi, from 1969 to 2011 and he had a horrible record with political dissidents and human rights.
Do you guys actually believe this?? I mean, come on... it's GOONS. They are notorious for pulling pranks like this.
Trolls gotta troll.
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
I hope you get what you deserve too
And the West has a long history of deposing people with a 'horrible record with political dissidents and human rights'... to replace them with someone much worse.
...sounds like he was pretty involved in the game.
It also sounds like he was well-loved. Choice notes from the forum thread:
And probably my favorite:
Supercar Gautier:
coding is life
Perhaps we had better get started, before more innocent people get the same seemingly random treatment.
"they believe innocent individuals need to suffer "
Often, radicals believe there are no innocents.
They feel that either you must be as militant as they are, or you're just a tool/ally of those they feel are opposing/oppressing them.
In the former case, you're a fighter for their cause and thus a martyr if killed.
In the latter case, you are a part of the problem that needs to be disposed of.
Because US is so hated in many countries, I think they should build the embassies outside city (centers). Then it would be easier to have good fortifications, like double fences, with land mines, machine gun towers, over meter thick walls like in Iraq (although the Iraqi plan included thousands of soldiers, I don't think you really need thousands of soldiers with propertly fortified embassy) etc.
Which ones death in an attack on an embassy should I put first?
Obligatory Streisand Effect link to the video that they are acting against: Innocence of Muslims
And, for bonus points, here's an emoticon depiction of The Prophet Mohammed: 0-<-<
Come get me.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
First it was Afghanistan. You thought that everyone fighting against authoritarian Soviets was automatically pro-democracy and pro-human rights; and what's wrong if they speak of Islam and jihad occasionally? Clearly it's only against the bad guys. And so you gave them money and guns and trained them, and the end result was a country where most schools (build by those very Soviets) were demolished and replaced by madrassas, and secular if authoritarian government replaced by fanatics who were stoning women on football stadiums for adultery after they were raped.
(Oh, and don't say that you didn't support Taliban. This guy was no better, and most of his troops ended up in Taliban anyway.)
And what do you get for it in the end? A whole country turned into a giant terrorist training camp that's now working against you, and using those very weapons that you've supplied them to kill your soldiers, and workers that you send to try to rebuild the country. The training camp that produced those people who committed the biggest terrorist act ever in the history of this planet, against the USA.
Then there was Kosovo. Again, "freedom fighters" against a totalitarian regime and all that. Again, a decade afterwards it's slowly growing to be another place where Wahhabism spreads, only this time in the middle of Europe (and also a major drug transit center to boot, to finance the operation). And, again, the chickens are coming home to roost.
Now there's Libya. It's only been a year since the downfall of the regime - thanks largely to heavy NATO military backing of the rebel "freedom fighters" - and we've already seen genocide of the black population, widespread persecuting of Christians, and now this act of outright hostility towards USA and the murder of its citizens and representatives. You can go on at length about how the real, democratically elected government of Libya is liberal and all about human rights and such, but what this incident clearly shows is that they're not a government. They're simply not in control of the country. And people that are in control, because they have guns (that you gave them) and troops and determination - people like this - hate democracy and human rights with a passion, and hate you because you are representative of that. And you can't even say that they haven't warned you if you were only willing to see and listen...
But, hey, that's still not quite enough jihadis, right? Let's create another breeding ground for them in Syria as well?
That's true, but it doesn't make the outlandish claims by OP any more valid.
shieldtroll AC'ing his own comment.
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
His last chat transcript in TFA is chilling. It seems like any good I.T. guy he was online at the time. It sounds like they were under very heavy attack actually, with mortars... in the US Consulate compound? OK, now the government is beefing up security, but I wonder what was in-place before the place was destroyed.
What a terrible thing to happen.
You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
Because a Libyan Christian living in California made a movie supporting his belief that the Muslim faith is a dangerous cancer (his words)
He just got vindicated based on the actions in Libya and Egypt. I think his film just got a helluva lot more popular now.
Life is not for the lazy.
nah that wasn't his last chat transcript. That was just an example that was pretty common to hear from him when he was in Iraq . His lats words on jabber were "FUCK" and "GUNFIRE" and then he disappeared off Jabber.
The result of his actions were entirely predictable. They were mean spirited and intended to provoke this response as is his calling Islam a cancer. Yet the person is not held responsible in any way, shape or form for their actions even though they lead directly to deaths. . While I respect free speech you can't shout fire in a theatre for good reasons. Why isn't this person being held to the same level of responsibility?
If you think that Libya was "closer to a true democracy" under Gaddafi, you're outright insane.
Even the most sham-elected de facto dictatorship on the planet blows the doors off any theocracy ever, when it comes to "closer to a true democracy".
At some point, the people can appeal to a (human) tyrant, and he might respond to their concerns.
Whether or not it exists, god never responds.
We need to get out of the Middle East/North Africa, until the savages either settle their differences or kill each other off. Screw this "democracy" crap, we've now plunged three "questionable" but relatively secular democracies into borderline (or even outright) sharia over the past decade. We need to quit while only that far behind.
which shows one thing.
An excuse needing an offense on a day where the maximum amount of press could be extracted. In other words, just what any extremist or politician would do.
When your society is breaking down an outlet is required. Seeing that we are the big evil for the people who exploit the misery of their people all in the name of religion what could we expect? You have a society where your not safe so the only escape you have is to become part of the mob because it offers anonymity.
Sometimes getting rid of a dictator is a bad thing, witness Libya and Egypt. When the control is there are ample numbers of organized groups more than willing to move in. They will do so under the protection of their religion and people over there know better than to speak out. It is even easier when nearly half the population has no choice (women) and a good number of those remaining are more than happy about abusing that other half.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I actually voted for Vile Rat in the last election.... damn shame... I made tons of money off that election. I do however, offer my condolences to his family.
that psycho pastor had involvement in what ended in this situation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Jones_(pastor)
I hope this guy knows he has blood on his hands now, as batshit crazy as *he* is, he is now partially at fault. I knew he'd do something to incite violence overseas ever since his ridiculous quaran burning.
This shit is just beyond crazy...First off, nobody in the US would even know this stupid movie exists if it wasn't for these extremist fairy tale worshipers..Second, seriously?? going around and killing people because they share the same nation as some other d-bag? If that is the case we might as well exterminate the entire human race right now because there are d-bags everywhere. Finally, Grow the fuck up and learn a little tolerance for others beliefs or lack there off. How many religions are there in the world? and obviously each and every one of them is the ONLY right religion....so learn to deal with it like responsible members of the human race...where is another great plague, great flood or meteorite when you need one.
It touches something everyone who plays online games wonders about.
How deep is that connection with your friends you know only in a virtual way? Does their impact on the virtual world you played in matter in any sense? Is changing a game world that 300 000 people play in and enjoy a real accomplishment? If he coaches little league or his kids football people would talk about that, even though it impacts a lot less people and is not all that important in the grand scheme of things. Hundreds of thousands of people have been touched, in a small way, by this guy, he was part of their little special society.
It's also strange, how our relationships with friends are changing. My friends who I play online with at least, are more likely to remember the far too many hours we spent trying to kill the first entrance trash in molten core, on the first night there were 40 people on our server who could even get in than some event where people went bar crawling and didn't quite make it home. We raided molten core, other people broke into an abandoned cement factory.
I'm 32, 4 years ago a friend of mine from public school passed away due to brain cancer. I had known him for 23 or 24 years in total (from junior kindergarten until he passed away). We did lots of stuff as kids, riding around parks on a bike, trying to meet girls, failing miserably with girls, we sat around his house and played games, we went to universities, fell in a river at a yearly university party etc. That stuff, when people gave speeches about it at his funeral is something everyone could relate to and laugh about. Including that time we accidentally set fire to our old school, his father sold school equipment and after graduation he was working for his dad and someone botched an installation... Know one really knew (or was inclined to talk about) how he'd spent the last couple of years of his life trying to help organize a guild in a video game. He couldn't be around people IRL a lot of the time due to treatments, but he could log on and help organize 40 or 50 people to get their shit together and have fun. I guess that's important, insofar as having fun is important. But it's not something people in their 40's and 50's and older can really understand or relate to generally.
Eve particularly makes this a story because it's a single world. Whatever my deceased friend accomplished was confined to one server of a cluster of servers of hundreds of thousands or millions of people all doing the same thing, in their own little instances walking past each other. But in Eve, one person can change the world for everyone, good or bad.
Notice how there's no story about the other 3 people who were killed, 2 other staffers and the ambassador. The ambassador is getting lots of coverage on the MSM. That was his 'clique' so to speak, and that will be his mark on the world is as an ambassador trying to manage US business. This was an IT guy, who played games with his friends. There's nothing wrong with that, but how we think about peoples contribution to the world is changing, this poor guy has the unfortunate distinction of getting a lot of press for it, but he's certainly not the first.
When George Lucas or Hironobu Sakaguchi, or Sid Meier pass away people on the outside of their properties (Star Wars/Indiana Jones, Final fantasy, Civilization) will understand them as the creators of those things, even if they never played the games or watched the movies. Game worlds are different, because the people who created the rules of the world, and the people who make the world aren't the same. This guy made part of the world that was created by the people at CCP, and that 300k other people play in. I don't think society has quite figured out how, if at all, it wants to try and recognize that.
Know one
Really, I'd catch this after I hit post. Figures....
As you said, their oil and water was kept in local hands, and the Libyans had an independence of mind, which was there true crime. Why are the Qadaffis of the world always portrayed as devils while the Saudi regime are portrayed as angels? If Qadaffi had taken US money and bowed down to the oil companies and Zionists he would have been portrayed angelically. As it was, he knew the winds had changed and worked to appease the West and US. Didn't matter, NATO took it upon itself to bomb the hell out of Libya. Now tears are flowing for these foreign imperialists who just helped arm a bloody insurrection to get Libya under the hands of the West. Not every Libya man is a pussy who is going to lie down and let foreigners walk all over them, as this attack shows. How many Libyans killed in the recent US backed bloody civil war get a full blown Slashdot memorial? Some American gets a piece of that aftermath and it's a big deal. Those who live by the sword die by the sword.
shieldtroll AC'ing his own comment.
Right.
If you know me well enough to have me on your Foes list, you should know me well enough to know that I don't respect my audience enough to bother posting as an AC.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Even the most sham-elected de facto dictatorship on the planet blows the doors off any theocracy ever, when it comes to "closer to a true democracy".
I don't think that always follows. I, for one, would prefer to live in Iran over North Korea.
That said, revolutions backed by a fundamentalist religious movement make me nervous. It is, indeed, a very good excuse for perpetrating all kinds of nasty things - and, what's worst, it's a way to turn even common citizens who were normal, non-blood-thirsty people yesterday into fanatics quartering and burning people alive on a square in the center of the town while chanting "Allahu Akbar".
So what your saying is that the next time someone insults Christianity such as putting a crucifix in jar of urine (Piss Christ) or anything else of that nature, they should bring about the Crusaders again and kill in the name of God!? Because you just accepted the premise that "might makes right". Which BTW is one of many truths in life. I don't like the idea of it being true, but there you go.
If you're going to cower in the face of Freedom of Speech, you deserve to be someone's bitch at the tip of a sword. At worst, stoned to death!
Life is not for the lazy.
...I guess.
Bullshit! No one has responsibility for this except the religious fanatics that did it and their own leaders. And as long as these radical idiots keep this kind of thing up only more people will be willing to speak out against them.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Do you really think that Muslims are killing people because of a single film? That may have set them off, but there has been a lot of buildup to this, and that buildup had nothing to do with the media.
Let's put it this way: South Park depicted Mohammed once, without causing any riots, suicide bombings, or other forms of kililng in response.
Palm trees and 8
So tell me, when did you move to the Utopia known as Libya? I hear there are rainbows and unicorns, and all the rivers are made of chocolate.
sudo make me a sandwich
i truly cannot even parse this. A person should be responsible for using "mean spirited" words ? When the deaths were caused on the other end of the world by people who probably never saw the video? The responders could have opted to shout mean spirited words back, or even make their own movie, or go and live their lives in a way that proves the movie-maker wrong. Instead it is decided that murder of random employees of a country whose laws allow people to use "mean spirited" words is a proper response. This proves the movie maker correct more than anything. Things stopped becoming conjecture or slander, and just became pointing out facts real quickly. The movie is obviously an excuse to take action, and this action would have happened anyhow. This wasnt random or authentic rage, or organic in any way. Some of the masses may have been whipped into a frenzy, and been told about this film, but none of the attack makes sense this way... it occured on a very important day, in multiple countries.
As soon as criticism should be punished for the actions of those being criticized is as soon as I start to fight the war. Speech is speech, murder is murder.
So what your saying is that the next time someone insults Christianity such as putting a crucifix in jar of urine (Piss Christ) or anything else of that nature, they should bring about the Crusaders again and kill in the name of God!?
You've got the order of that entirely incorrect. What I believe jvillain is saying is that, "if insulting Christianity was known to motivate a large number of Christians to violence and murder, then anyone purposefully insulting Christianity should also be held responsible for resulting criminal activity."
Antagonizing an individual does not necessarily make one blameless for the resulting violence committed against you. There's the famous case of Buzz Aldrin punching conspiracy theorist Bart Sibrel. Mr. Sibrel tried to get Mr. Aldrin arrested for assault, but the action was denied because it was plainly obvious that Mr. Sibrel had instigated the confrontation. A punch to the face and murder are on entirely different levels, so the comparison isn't be exact, of course.
While "they need a thicker skin" make be a relatively valid opinion, I think "don't be an asshole" is far and away more important.
People will pass up steak once a week, for crap every day.
Where was their security? At this time of all times they should have been on a much higher state of alert. How's that privativation of State Dept security working out?
Goonswarm Alliance is a superpower in eve. It's long been a mystery how such a collection of mismatched personalities manages to stay so perfectly organised. Now we know: They had a professionally trained diplomat.
The attackers had organization, a plan, and even RPGs, this wasn't guys angry at the video, it was guys using the video protests as cover for their own preplanned attack on the embassy.
I read the internet for the articles.
Well said. I wish I had some mod points for this.
As a gamer I find that the celebrities I care about, the ones who entertain me and impact my life, are decidedly different then those most of the rest of the world care about. Imagine if it had been a Hollywood celebrity that was killed in the raid, rather then an internet one? There would be nothing else on the news. But when someone who is well known on some (geekish) corner of the internet dies, even people on a geek site question whether the news is meaningful.
He did not "shout fire in a theatre". In the context of the ruling which that phrase comes from, if there was a fire in a theatre, the people in the theatre were in significant danger. When the people became aware of a fire in the theatres of that time, they tended to attempt to escape the danger with no concern for the welfare of others. So, what danger was the maker of this film pointing out falsely that was so dangerous that they attacked U.S. facilities and killed people without thinking because they were trying to escape that danger?
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Why is parent marked troll?
That's humanity for you ...
FTFY
Dude, this is Libya. They just had a revolution a few months ago. EVERYONE in Libya has an RPG, grenades, and machine guns. Unfortunately their new government hasn't done enough to collect all the heavy weapons out there. But I don't think there's enough evidence yet to suggest what particular group was behind this or what their motives were.
No amount of verbal or written instigation justifies murder.
Furthermore, no amount of verbal or written instigation should make you accountable for the actions of others. You can't force people to do things with words, ultimately it is their choice alone if they will do it or not and they alone should answer for the consequences.
The military assault against the US Consulate in Benghazi should not be seen as part of a protest against a low budget film which was insulting Islam â" there were just a few peaceful protesters present at the event. Indeed, there have been no other demonstrations regarding this film in Libya.
We at Quilliam believe the attack on the US consulate in Benghazi was a well planned terrorist attack that would have occurred regardless of the demonstration, to serve another purpose. According to information obtained by Quilliam from foreign sources and from within Benghazi we have reason to believe that the attack on the US consulate in Benghazi came to avenge the death of Abu Yaya al-Libi, al-Qaedaâ(TM)s second in command killed a few months ago.
The reasons for this are as follows:
The weak security environment in Libya including in Benghazi and the failure of the government to project its power outside of the capital have been used as a cover for the attack.
The failure to rebuild the defence and security sector, in an accountable, professional and responsible manner will only further the likelihood of such attacks in the future. Attacks in Benghazi are not new â" the Red Cross has been attacked multiple times in previous months, as have the US consulate and also the UK Ambassador, and such security lapses encourage attacks. The International Community must take the challenge of not allowing extremist elements to hijack the Arab Uprisings very seriously, by renewing their focus on civic and governance responses to check the efforts of Islamist extremists attempting to exploit the inevitable security vacuum.
Noman Benotman, President of Quilliam says:
âoeThese are acts committed by uncontrollable jihadist groups. We hope Libya will seize this opportunity to revive its policy of Disarmament, Demobilisation and Re-integration (DDR) in order to facilitate an end to the spread of such attacks, with the help of the International Community. We hope that the International Community, including NATO member states and especially the US, will continue their excellent work in Libya which began with the overthrow of the dictator Gaddafi after 42 years in power.â
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
The Islamic world is too rigid to adapt.
18 inch satellite dishes are very easy to hide.
Muslim fundamentalists will live long enough to see their grandchildren being emos. Even we will have to agree it is not an improvement. But they won't blow things up for the right to stick household appliances up their butts.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
otherwise it's not a militia. if a militia leader doesn't use the militia for combat, then he has no power outside of combat and his militants will start flipping him off instead of saluting.
any excuse will do.
this time it was just the movie that was the excuse - politically of course opposing the movie and attacking the consulate have pretty much nothing to do with each other, suing would have had more results if the aim was to fear people into not doing such movies.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
I insult a guy's mother, and the guy's response to my insult is to kill a government official from the country I come from.
Many people posting here are saying I should be responsible for that guy murdering someone. Because I insulted his mother. Really?
OK, my insult is wrong, yes. Am I responsible for murder? Because I incited the guy to murder? What does that mean? Is the man a human being who is responsible for his own actions? Or a swarm of angry bees?
Isn't it rather insulting to say that the guy is just a force of nature, and not a human being? Well, you are saying that I am responsible for him murdering someone, not him. So clearly YOU don't consider this man to actually be a man at all, but just a beast without thought or reason.
This is my thinking:
1. If I make an ugly movie, I am responsible for making an ugly movie.
2. If I kill a human being, I am responsible for killing a human being.
#1 and #2 have nothing to do with each other. Really.
To think otherwise means you don't believe in personal responsibility and accountability at all. Without believing in that concept, is anything we call moral behavior possible?
At some point you are going to have to come to grips with the existence of a guy where all you have to do is insult his mother, and he goes on a killing rampage.
It seems some people posting here are trying very hard to avoid the obvious implications of a world where a man like that is not uncommon. You better stop trying to avoid the obvious.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Hi, I'm the Prophet Mohammed, and I fuck camels!
/\
/
O
\|/
Thanks, this was one of the best things I've read in years.
'The Pedophile Mohammad (piss be upon him).
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
If that's humanity, where do I apply for a transfer to another species?
I think the thoughts in your post rather eloquently why the City of heroes community is fighting the announcement of the shutdown.
They just have different excuses for it.
What I believe jvillain is saying is that, "if insulting Christianity was known to motivate a large number of Christians to violence and murder, then anyone purposefully insulting Christianity should also be held responsible for resulting criminal activity."
I think that, if Christians were prone to violence and murder like that, then calling them violent and murderous would not be insulting. It would be a plain statement of the fact.
The consulate in Libya was shot with the RPG, several times.
Unfortunately their new government hasn't done enough to collect all the heavy weapons out there.
What can they do, really? If you don't have more guns (and people) than the other guy, then the only thing you can do is politely ask. Of course he'll refuse - after all, so long as he has his guns, he also has the same power as you, at least on his own turf. Then what?
No amount of verbal or written instigation justifies murder.
Of course not, but that doesn't mean you can act as if cause and effect no longer apply and the results are not predictable.
Furthermore, no amount of verbal or written instigation should make you accountable for the actions of others.
Maybe in a court of law. But you should always hold yourself accountable for the completely expected consequences of your actions, even if certain steps in the chain of causality involve other sentient beings.
For example:
You walk into a bar and tell an ex-marine you know has a drinking problem and rage issues that dogs are fucking scum and you wish more of them were dying from IEDs.
Do your actions justify the savage beating you will receive? No, of course not.
Do your actions explain the savage beating? Are you responsible for doing something so stupid that you had to have known would result in that beating? Yeah. I mean if you smashed your face into a wall the resulting pain is obviously your fault. So just because this person has free will and might have gone against everything you knew about them and not hit you, you're free from blame? I don't think so.
But I also don't think blame is a zero-sum game, and a person is completely responsible for their own actions. That marine I made up should seriously get some counseling when they get out of jail.
The enemies of Democracy are
Zawahiri acknowledged the death of his second in command Abu Yahya and urged Libyans to avenge his killing
Yeah because that'll stop the cycle...
Christians and Jews flinging pigs blood at Arabs is the act of a mature and reasonable person. Like we all keep pigs blood in the fridge, right?
Christian did riot and attack people due to the "last temptation of christ" , look back in the news from 88-89. Cocktail molotov were thrown at a cinema in France, and 14 people wounded. Granted it is not as bad as a RPG into a car, but the fact is that there are fundemmentalist everywhere, and in that country a lot ofn military hardware is floating around. I am not excusing the act of those nutcase, but jsut like I did not condemn the WHOLE christianity when tehy killed doctor, shown "god hate fags" sign, or thrown molotov cocktail onto cinema, I think one should not condemn the whole islam either.
That said the fundemmentalist silamist can rot.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
"You can say anything you want about Jesus and no Christian will kill you."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_(film)#Attack_on_Saint_Michel_theater.2C_Paris
nobody was killed but it was not for trying.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Hey, why not go fuck yourself?
Even the most sham-elected de facto dictatorship on the planet blows the doors off any theocracy ever, when it comes to "closer to a true democracy". At some point, the people can appeal to a (human) tyrant, and he might respond to their concerns. Whether or not it exists, god never responds. We need to get out of the Middle East/North Africa, until the savages either settle their differences or kill each other off. Screw this "democracy" crap, we've now plunged three "questionable" but relatively secular democracies into borderline (or even outright) sharia over the past decade. We need to quit while only that far behind.
I agree with the first statement, there's bound to be a little more reason there..
but anyway, in regards to "getting out now", how much time do you think that will buy us? Does anyone really believe that these religious nutjobs, violent members of a proselytizing religion, are going to be forever content in their sandy, barren corner of the world? Is that what the Hindu's in India during Ghandi's time thought? It would be swell if they killed themselves off or settled down, but that's not what's happening: instead, one faction manages to subjugate the other (i.e. the Taliban) and then imposes it's iron grip on the region.
We can get out of there now, and leave a total nightmare for our children and granddhildren to have to deal with when these savages come to enforce the word of Mohammad over the whole of the earth, or deal with this now, before the militant islamists get any more powerful.
Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
They were mean spirited and intended to provoke this response as is his calling Islam a cancer.
That's great, Islam is a cancer. I said it too, just to provoke people.
What else, well if you insult christians or jews, or hindu's or taoists, or buddhists by calling their religion a cancer can you tell me what would happen? I know you already can. They'd look at you, shrug and go on their way. He didn't shout "fire in a crowed theater" rather you're seeing the face of a religion that hasn't grown up because it's still a child, that will not face the realities that all other religions have.
If I took my torah and burned it, nothing would happen. There'd be no riots in the streets. If I took my bible and burned it in the streets nothing would happen. If I took a variety of other religious texts, nothing would happen. If I took a Koran and did it, I'd have death threats against me within the hour.
Religion of peace in action.
Om, nomnomnom...
You want to be REALLY afraid, go read freerepublic.com sometime.
Right.
If you know me well enough to have me on your Foes list, you should know me well enough to know that I don't respect my audience enough to bother posting as an AC.
You are going to find out that karma is indeed a big bitch. And I'm not talking about the slashdot kind.
"Network penetration is network engineering, in reverse."
Don't compare Libya to CIA activities in Afghanistan. NATO didn't arm the rebels and there was a UN mandate! Need I remind you that French planes were the first to deploy in Libya. For once the US wasn't playing a leading role.
So yes, the US apparently learned from the Afghanistan. But nothing you do or learn can protect you from an angry fanatic with a rocket launcher.
That's what happens when you let people own weapons.
I went to youtube and watched the whole movie trailor, which is not a feat for the faint of heart. This movie if viewed in it's entirety not only easily displaces Battlefield Earth it also bumps up The Profit on my personal list of worst movies. Anyone taking blood thinners should avoid this movie and it's trailer because it will make your eyes bleed.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
I'm afraid I don't get the reference, but I get the point. It's better than killing/wounding.
My point was the comparison between these two concepts:
1. Islamic extremists kill people because their beliefs differ (infidels) or because of something they said (Muhammad cartoons etc).
2. U.S. soldiers kill people because they have resources the U.S. needs.
I'm not excusing our actions or saying it is OK, but I am saying there is a world of difference between the two. #2 is, with a zoomed out enough lens, potentially acceptable or at least understandable. #1 is always wrong.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
I don't have much to add to what Chris Burke said, but...
You can't force people to do things with words [...]
Oh, you most certainly can. I wouldn't called it "force", though, but with knowledge of the person or group, or situation, one can most certainly illicit an expected reaction. How can you possibly be held blameless for the role you had in directing events?
[...] ultimately it is their choice alone if they will do it or not and they alone should answer for the consequences.
I disagree completely.
People will pass up steak once a week, for crap every day.
The insinuation being that he would want to stop the cycle?
Whether or not it exists, god never responds.
Theocracy isn't "rule by God". That would be a Deiocracy. Theocracy is rule by the priests. Appeal to the priests is no more/less likely to intrinsically fail or succeed than that of an appeal to a single ruler.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
One explanation for your first point is that these folks have lived under a dictatorship for their entire lives. They may not really understand that how things work in countries where people can act outside the government. Doesn't excuse it, of course.
But my response to your second point answers the first too. What kind of ignorant asshole disrespects Mohammed? What kind of ignorant Muslim murders innocents in response to heresy? People who are trying to inflame a holy war, that's who.
Here's the deal. The radical Christian right is deliberately insulting Islam to provoke events like this, to convince us moderates that the Muslims are all murderous lunatics. The radical Islamic right is deliberately overreacting with acts of murder, trying to provoke racist hatred or military response from the US, proving to moderate muslims that we're racist gun-happy heathens. The two sides play off each other. Their goal in inciting a holy war is to force the rest of us to choose sides. As the extremists play off each other, they force the moderates into their arms, increasing their power.
Don't play their game.
Hearsay confirmation, state intelligence have been (unofficially, internally) confirming that the attacks were not caused by the same people who were protesting the film, and that bringing the weapons and inciting violence were a crime of opportunity by a known foreign militant group who tried to attack them before.
Not just US consul staff were killed, but so were as many protesters and Libyan guards who worked at the Consulate.
Ah, here's the SECSTATE: http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/12/world/africa/libya-attack-jihadists/index.html
It's long been a mystery how such a collection of mismatched personalities manages to stay so perfectly organised. Now we know: They had a professionally trained diplomat.
I'll say. Even if he was a Tech guy at the Embassy, he knew what he was doing.
Right from the link to Mittani's blog:
"If you play this stupid game, you may not realize it, but you play in a galaxy created in large part by Vile Rat’s talent as a diplomat. No one focused as relentlessly on using diplomacy as a strategic tool as VR. Mercenary Coalition flipped sides in the Great War in large part because of Vile Rat’s influence, and if that hadn’t happened GSF probably would have never taken out BoB. Jabberlon5? VR made it. You may not even know what Jabberlon5 is, but it’s the smoke-filled jabber room where every nullsec personage of note hangs out and makes deals. Goonswarm has succeeded over the years in large part because of VR’s emphasis on diplomacy, to the point of creating an entire section with a staff of 10+ called Corps Diplomatique, something no other alliance has. He had the vision and the understanding to see three steps ahead of everyone else - in the game, on the CSM, and when giving real-world advice."
Ok, this just makes me very angry.
Let me start observing that I am not an American (I am just a random Mexican). But the fact that every time there is an attack to the USA, the countries involved say "it is not us, it is the terrorists in our country" is starting to sound like a lame justification. It was not Pakistan, it was Al-qaeda, it was not Lybia. Really?
Putting blame in "terrorists" is getting old, being it the USA or other countries who do not want to appease their people.
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
Without a doubt. I'm sympathetic to the costs of running an operation like CoH, and it had a good run, but it's too bad there isn't a 'COH 2' sort of thing for everyone to migrate to if they need to shut down the last one.
Hey lets put this in perspective, remember all the people that were murdered by Christian extremists when Mel Gibson made that Passion of the Christ film? And lets not forget all those that died when the Last Temptation of Christ was released. Don't forget those murdered in the name of Christ when Andrew Loyd Webber released Jesus Christ Superstars and certainly have a moment of peace for those murdered every time South Park, Family Guy, The Simpsons, and Comic Artists featured Jesus. I mean don't you remember the "Dogma" massacres as a result of of that film? When Penny Arcade featured Jesus as Metal don't you remember the number of attempts on their lives?
It's a religion of peace people, lets keep this in perspective. Don't let a small, vocal, organized, group of extremists pain a picture of a religion is evil. I am certain those responsible will be arrested by their fellow Muslims and prosecuted for murder by their fellow Muslims.
Now the question you have to ask, "am I being sarcastic, or playing this comment straight?"
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
Agreed. This is just one of those many threads that bring out all the folks that'll start quoting that Godless piece of bigotry that is www.thereligionofpeace.com, and get modded up by others who insist on believing that all 1.4 BILLION Muslims around the world are terrorists, which makes about as much sense as equating all Protestants with the Klan. I'll probably get modded down just for posting this, but I really don't care...that sort of crap makes me ashamed to be an American.
I don't know, but if you find out let me know. We might have to invent our own. If we can somehow figure out how to upload ourselves into a computer, we could live practically forever and maybe actually learn from/fix our mistakes. If the old style humans keep giving us shit, we'll just pack our bags, upload our shit into some giant spacecraft and set sail for the Gamma quadrant at a leisurely 0.5c....never to meet again, until the day we nuke Caprica. It has all happened before, and it will all happen again....
... it's the fact that they're generally poor and/or oppressed
This is yet another bullshit that has been regurgitated, over and over again.
It's a total bullshit !!
You want to portray the moslems as "poor and oppressed" and I will debunk your lies ---
Fact I: Wealth of the moslems:
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD
Qatar booked an estimated gross domestic product per capita of more than $92,501 for 2011
Whereas for the United States of America -- only $48,442
As for your expression "generally poor and/or oppressed", there ARE millions and millions of poor and oppressed Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, and Atheists all over the world.
Tell us, how often do you see the poor and oppressed Buddhist or Hindu or Christian or Atheist murdering / beheading / massacring innocent victims in the name of their religion?
In other words, poor and/or oppressed should not, and can never become a valid raison d'etre for anyone in massacring other people
Stop apologizing for those bloody assholes who worship their "allah"
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
By your moral codes you may be right, but because each person has its own moral code there is something called the law. And by law, and by my moral code no matter what I say I won't be responsible for someone deciding to inflict physical harm upon me.
You may establish causality between my acts and the acts of others, but that is not very relevant to establish blame.
Having black skin was enough motive for having someone beaten once at some places. There was a clear relation of causality. Even so I wouldn't be able to put the blame on the victim here.
Causality can be established between women using provocative clothes and rape, and that does not make the victim accountable for the rape either.
It's blowback. From assets used to achieve para-political military aims, then discarded by the would-be puppet masters.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
So, by your own admission you then concede you cannot force anyone to do anything with words as I said. The fact you can push people's buttons does not take from them the capacity to decide. If they cannot refrain to commit crimes because they heard something unpleasant only means they are not adequate to live in society and should be locked in a cage. Last but not least, you can disagree as much as you wish, but that does not make you right..
Wow!
Honest feelings and not one reply.
I'll take a bite.
First I'll attempt with counterpoint by citing (a) the usefulness enemies to retain power, (b) similarities with extremes in both jewish and christians in principles and means (and examples), (c) that the parts of the elephant you blindly touch is as fractalized as the Maine coast, (d) the general public apathy/tepidity to act juxtaposed against oppressed minorities struggling to survive, (d) that terror will always be a tool both by the little (the rebels) and the big (e.g. RioTinto, Standard Oil) until people wake up to the lie.
(e) there is no difference dying in an bang or in a breaking levee
Here's another tack:
Global Reporting stimulates Global Opinions about shit that almost everyone, in some way, is totally clueless about in trying to explain.
Either you were there, or not; either you were a detatched witness or you were biased. When it's eye-opening, pucker-uping shit then its usually about grunts/expendables looking in the mirror one day and seeing someone who can't go home again.
Not the same anymore from experiencing some insane, mis-guided, self-delusional bullshit they said "i can't do this anymore; i just aint me".
"No Mas"
So: to respond to your queries about muslims by who knows less of them than their digits on hand implies that (at least) I have no god in the fight.
One: They are speaking out. They are a minority, sure, but they decry what is happening as much as you do. As a minority, like OWS or the TP even, their voices do not gain any mainstream media attraction. Unless you search you will not hear them.
Two: To the larger group of StatusQuo, don't rock-the-boat, there-you-have-it/there-it-is majority who prefer feeling over fact, don't like to have to think a whole lot and have difficulty communicating in words - that muslim minority (as vocal on rights and injustice as on violence) like all the other fringes who just want to stir up trouble, are percieved as a nuisance to infiltrate, mis-guide and, if caught, serve as a warning to others not to trust the resolute when it comes to making plans.
Three: Have you entertained the possibility that your understanding, the aggregate assembled or compiled from collected stories, might be tainted by information (often deliberately) ommited, or otherwise FUBAR from the 'boots on the ground', 1st-person, actual experience?
Four: Understanding is a more difficult path than letting your ego latch onto the emotional response of the sensational. It's what keeps the charade in play.
Five: when/if you realize your post has become recursive, that's its also become your "GODDAMN FUCKING BULLSHIT" as well as same of countless 'programmed', manufactured, well-spun, pawns in the game of the System; then you will understand and your questions closer to real targets.
TC: I've been on this board a long time and hold you, docruby and and fistfull of others in both respect and regard. Get over this before this, or the next-big-thing makes your head ASPLODE!
Sincerely
resist propaganda
He would smite all religionists, leaving only atheists who live by the golden rule.
Where were the moderate Christians when Christian extremists bombed abortion clinics and shot staff members?
I'll grant you that there are probably more violent extremists who would cite their motivation as Islam than there are violent extremists who would cite Christianity as their motivating force. But so what? That still doesn't put the blame on the rest of the Muslims.
The fact is that there were no U.S. security forces there. The consulate was defended by and the mob was engaged with deadly force by Libyan security forces. Early reports indicate that when it became clear that the mob was overrunning the consulate, a local Militia intervened and stepped in to defend the consulate. Many / most of these Libyans were likely Muslims themselves.
Today, there were rallies in Egypt and Libya of people expressing remorse for what happened. But I guess they must not be Muslims because they weren't violent and because they denounced the violence. Funny that.
To answer your questions:
Every single Muslim I know. Every. Single. One. To say nothing of Muslim politicians and prominent leaders speaking out in more prominent venues than my living room or office.
There are 1.1 Million Muslims in Spain. 29 individuals were charged in involvements in the Madrid train bombings. While I'm sure there are other violent crimes that have been committed in that population of 1.1 million, am I to believe that the vast bulk of them are what? Biding their time? Waiting for the right moment to detonate their suicide vests that they've all been issued at the local mosque / radicalization center? Wow! Spain is a ticking time bomb!
Why yes we did see moderate Muslims speak out after the 7/7 bombings. In fact, 500 of their religious leaders in the U.K. issued a Fatwa condemning the bombings.
Did you know that Patriotic Resistance Force in Ituri (a group that indentifies itself as a Christian militia) has committed genocide, kept prisoners locked in rooms that were essentially mass graves, kept women and children as sex slaves, and engaged in conscription of child soldiers? Does this mean all Christians are vile? Or maybe just all African Christians? Maybe just Ugandan Christians? I'm sure we can find a sweeping bigoted generalization you can agree with!
You should be modded down as a troll, because you are a troll.
There are bad Muslims in the world. Congratulations for figuring that bit out.
But guess what? If there are a million Muslims in an area and 100 of them go on a killing spree, guess which group gets news coverage?
Nobody is apologizing for anything. We're trying to make sure bigots and morons understand that a couple billion people aren't responsible for the actions of a few.
Touch everywhere, even when inappropriate.
We knew Kurgen/Gothic on the Moral Decay MUD where he and his wife both played and became wizards. As I understand it, his activity has been much greater on Eve, but we feel like a member of our family was lost as well... RIP Kurgen.
Come play Moral Decay!
You know what? I was going to mark this post as a troll to at least partially hide it from the world, but sometimes people need to be exposed as the retards they are so I've decided to let more people see the post to let them make up their own minds about you.
These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
Tyler's words coming out of my mouth. I used to be such a nice person.
Listen to me. You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen. We don't need Him. Fuck damnation, man. Fuck redemption. We are God's unwanted children. So be it! But first you have to give up. First, you have to know, not fear, know that someday you're gonna die. It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.
Fear is the mind killer.
I find it so typical that we here see Mulims protesting the movie because (among other things) it displays them as aggresive, violent and murderous, and they do this protesting by... being aggressive, violent and murderous.
It's just like the cartoon crises - they protested against Muhammad being shown with a bomb in his turban, signifying the violent and murderous nature of Islam, by being violent and murderous...
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
2. U.S. soldiers kill people because they have resources the U.S. needs.
I never could understand this argument. If they would act like mature modern day people and just do business like other middle eastern nations, they would be rich beyond their dreams and no one would be dieing. Instead they still live in the 9th century.
BBC Radio 4 PM probably the most respected News Programme in the one UK ran a feature on that video.
Practically everything we've been told about it is false.
Terrorism thrives under Islam because most Muslims tacitly support it and their Superstition doesn't condemn it.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Slavery thrives under Christianity, for your same cited reasons - with as much "fact" to support it.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Ya, I have a champions character. Same people who made COH1. But there's no direct transfer over, you need to organize and so on. And it's the quirky little communities that are hard to replace. Fortunately the single server in champions means you'll definitely be with people from your server, it's just a matter of finding them.