Starting Next Year, Brazil Wants To Track All Cars Electronically

The big brother society by ickleberry · 2012-10-03 10:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

Marches on steady. Unstoppable and with an insatiable appetite for new technology

Re:The big brother society by wierd_w · 2012-10-03 11:15 · Score: 5, Insightful

And we, the technicians, geeks, engineers, and software architects of the world, greedily line up to offer suggestions on how best to feed that pernicious appetite out of either being forced into it simply to have food to eat, or for fame and fortune.
The result is the same. We make the very chains they enslave us with, and happily forge ever more diabolical pleasures to satisfy big brother.
Who made DRM? It wasn't a media executive. It was somebody in a cubicle. Think about that.
Re:The big brother society by PRMan · 2012-10-03 11:43 · Score: 4, Informative

I once told my boss that I would quit if he made me work on a spam engine. He finally gave the product to some of my co-workers, who gladly did it... :-(

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Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
Re:The big brother society by Intrepid+imaginaut · 2012-10-03 11:58 · Score: 2

Its a job description, not a moral code. Of course all sorts of people are going to get involved. Techies, engineers, geeks and scientists designed gas chambers. Quite a lot of the blame lies with the charismatic sociopaths who convinced them this was a good idea, aka politicians and CEOs - in other words if it wasn't for the talking heads at the top, the techies probably wouldn't have come up with this stuff of their own accord.
Re:The big brother society by wierd_w · 2012-10-03 12:02 · Score: 2

I disagree. "Spam" is very much a grassroots tech crime sector. It is very mature now, but it wasn't in the early 90s when it first came into the world.
All that is needed are people with the skills, a person who wants the service, and money changing hands.
Both the person accepting the money to do the deed, and the person giving the money for the service are culpable.
Re:The big brother society by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 12:22 · Score: 0

...security...liberty...deserves...neither...
Well, you know the rest.
Re:The big brother society by ThatsMyNick · 2012-10-03 12:37 · Score: 2

If it is possible, someone will make it. It might as well be us. In the US license plate readers, accomplish the same (though they are not that prevalent, yet(read, not that cheap yet)).

What we really need is, for people to put pressure on govt to pass privacy laws. I would be fine with this idea, if the data is destroyed after a day or so. To store it beyond a day, you need a warrant signed by judge.
Re:The big brother society by rastoboy29 · 2012-10-03 12:42 · Score: 1

mod parent the fuck up.

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expandfairuse.org
Re:The big brother society by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 12:48 · Score: 0

Kudos. That's a surprisingly ethical stand for a modern Christian to take.
Re:The big brother society by wierd_w · 2012-10-03 13:31 · Score: 4, Interesting

I would rather see us do what doctors in ancient greece did.
Make an oath not to willfully cause harm, and internally enforce it. Call it whatever, but we need some form of morality in our profession, and willfully creating code we KNOW to be malicious is clearly immoral, regardless of what moral compas you choose to employ.
Simple things, like "I will not create mass mailers for commercial uses", "I will not create personally identifiable tracking systems of any sort.", "I will not create nor enforce systems to hinder political speech of any kind.", "I will not willfully penetrate another computer system without permission, and will not create tools to do so either.", "I will not willingly install backdoors for spying, monitoring, or sabotage, for any agency, in any software or systems I create.", etc.
It doesn't need to be religious, like 'i will only make open code' or anything. Just things we can unilaterally agree are clear misuses of technology. Kinda like doctors refusing to create bioweapons. That kind of thing.
Re:The big brother society by ThatsMyNick · 2012-10-03 13:50 · Score: 2

I am not sure how expect these to work. Most mass mailers I have seen were for legitimate use. They accept a list of email addresses (very often in excel format) and send an email to all of them. The mass mailer application cannot differentiate between legitimately obtained email address and illegitimately obtained ones. The same with tracking systems, there are legitimate uses for tracking. Every tracking system was created for legitimate use (gathering information for targeted advertisements is legitimate in my opinion). Again any tool to penetrate computer systems were created for pen testing. The authors cannot prevent the tools from being used against unauthorized systems. Backdoor/spying/monitoring can have legitimate reasons too.

BTW if you want anything of this sort to work, you need to create a licensing authority that grants licenses after the oath, and kick you off if you violate it.
Re:The big brother society by wierd_w · 2012-10-03 14:10 · Score: 2

Agreed; just like there are legitimate reasons to create monster viruses (biological) for medical research.
In this case, the oath is to assert "I will not willfully cause harm", where "willfully" is the operant conditional.
Likewise, if you are compelled by the law to include a back door, you aren't strictly speaking doing it of your own free will, but are instead being compelled to do so by your government, etc.
I agree about the regulatory licensing group. It adds beurocracy, which is deplorable, but for the same basic reasons we license doctors, we really should license professional programmers.
(In ancient greece, they had problems with corrupt doctors killing patients for money, selling poisons to known poisoners, and a host of other unscrupulous activities, which is exactly why the hipocratic oath came into being.)
Re:The big brother society by gmanterry · 2012-10-03 14:22 · Score: 2

If it is possible, someone will make it. It might as well be us. In the US license plate readers, accomplish the same (though they are not that prevalent, yet(read, not that cheap yet)).
What we really need is, for people to put pressure on govt to pass privacy laws. I would be fine with this idea, if the data is destroyed after a day or so. To store it beyond a day, you need a warrant signed by judge.
Aha, but this is the next step. It would be easy to swap plates with some other vehicle in a garage or parking lot. However it probably is not nearly as easy to swap the chip in your car. Also you could smear mud on a plate rendering it unreadable. My brother used to do that when he was 14 and wanted to drive his unlicensed car. Out of date plate, back then they issued new ones every year with alternating colors, with mud or snow covering the year. N.Y. in the 50s.

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Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?
Re:The big brother society by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 14:55 · Score: 0

That the guys on top of the pyramid are to blame is certain, but so are the hands that execute their orders. There's enough blame for everyone, no need to exclude anyone from it just because they sell themselves for less.
Re:The big brother society by M.+Baranczak · 2012-10-03 15:05 · Score: 0

Remember in "The Right Stuff", when the nurse was telling the astronauts that they had to provide a sperm sample for testing? There was no sane reason why NASA needed that information. They were just collecting it because they could. Because someone said, "well, we've got just about everything on these boys... did we miss anything?"
I was reminded of that scene not too long ago, when applying for a job in the... how shall I put this politely... "financial sector". And again just now, when I read this thing.
Re:The big brother society by Obfuscant · 2012-10-03 15:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

There was no sane reason why NASA needed that information. They were just collecting it because they could. Because someone said, "well, we've got just about everything on these boys...

I can think of one very good reason. To have a control sample to test against when they get back, to see what effects the low gravity/increased radiation had on them. Who knows, there might be gravity related issues with reproductive processes just like there are for bone and muscles.
Or for later use, in case there was a radiation accident that would render them incapable of having children.
Re:The big brother society by CodeBuster · 2012-10-03 15:27 · Score: 1

Marches on steady. Unstoppable and with an insatiable appetite for new technology
One might even go so far as to say that we've seen this movie [Brazil (1985)] before.
Re:The big brother society by ThatsMyNick · 2012-10-03 16:34 · Score: 2

Agreed; just like there are legitimate reasons to create monster viruses (biological) for medical research.
Unlike biological viruses, which are often never released to the public, the tool I release (be it a DDoS tool or mass mailer tool), can be used very easily for nefarious purposes. If most of my genuine tools can be used for nefarious purposes, then what is the point of the oath?
Re:The big brother society by ThatsMyNick · 2012-10-03 16:49 · Score: 2

To add to that, if you build a tool with nefarious thing in mind, you can be arrested with current laws (criminal intent and all that). What makes you think an oath will make a difference?
Re:The big brother society by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 17:08 · Score: 0

Walk away. You can not win that war. The only winning move is not to play. But you can go shopping for another job.
Re:The big brother society by wierd_w · 2012-10-03 17:23 · Score: 2

Swearing in on the oath, with a community to go with it, gives a sanitized and enforced venue to communicate research and tools with less intrinic risk.
Blackhats would very quickly get permabanned by a whitehat community. By explicit need, bans really should be for life.
Think, XDAforum, but with a membership requirement, and replication prohibitions. Enforce with strong CA, and forced encryption.
Re:The big brother society by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 17:56 · Score: 0

And how exactly do you expect to receive emails from legitimate businesses (such as a bill from your ISP)? I cannot keep using ineffective MTA's because it uses too much resources. Instead we use PowerMTA from port25 (like most ESP's).
If one of my clients spam, and one abuse@ email is enough, I will put them under a looking glass. If I find anything then they better explain themselves. We send about 600 million emails / year and I get 20 to 50 abuse@/spamcops back. I sift through the logs for spam complaints that are concrete enough. I would not say we are clean as a sheet, but very light gray.
One of the things that helped most is good government opt-in regulation. It makes it easy to say to clients that they cannot break the law (not here and not at a competitor). It levels the playing field.
Re:The big brother society by xenobyte · 2012-10-03 18:11 · Score: 3, Funny

I once told my boss that I would quit if he made me work on a spam engine. He finally gave the product to some of my co-workers, who gladly did it... :-(
What kind of respectable company would want any kind of spam engine?!
Sounds like a loser with shotty morals...

--
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
Re:The big brother society by wierd_w · 2012-10-03 18:47 · Score: 3, Interesting

As for purpose, that is more external. For that, we need a history lesson.
Hippocrates was not an ordinary physician. He was the lead physician at a well respected hospital/temple of apollo. He was greatly displeased that other doctors in other cities engaged in nefarious antics, and belived strongly that medicine should only be used to heal, and medical knowledge should never be used to cause injury or harm. He couldn't force the doctors in other cities to comply with that moral vision, and didn't really attempt to explicitly.
Instead, he made all of his students swear to an oath that is basicaly the granddaddy of viral licensing. It prohibited his students from delivering medical knowledge to any physician that wasn't an oath sworn one, in their tradition.
The external factor was that the citizenry held more trust in hippocratic doctors than doctors of other schools, because of the added and strongly enforced ethos of that school of medicinal practice. As such, over time, the hippocratic school simply stole all the customers and students.
Ok, history lesson over.
I am suggesting that a community be created with the express intent that technological knowledge should never be used to willfully harm people, with similar implicit and explicit restrictions as the hippocratic oath. We should protect information with very strong asymetric keys, and exchange information only with other members. Membership should be free, but be serious business. The idea is to foster trust with industry and the citizenry at large, by being a very highly sanitized specialist forum to discuss vulnerabilities and solutions to those vulnerabilities in a sanitized environment. Failure to comply with the restrictions of the community results in having your keypair banned for life, and having your real identity added to a (searchable) wall of shame. All exchanges in the community are always encrypted, and stored in the encrypted form. Community members authorize other members to read their posts by distributing public keys. Each message is to contain a cryptographically identifiable hash, such that decrypted messages can have a unique and positive identification of which public key did the decryption. Each member retains his/her private key. To an outsider viewing the forums, they will see only huge blocks of RSA style crypto streams in nested succession. A CA should fascilitate the assignment and revocation of keys.
This would allow community collaboration and exchanges on wild exploit discoveries in a more protected environment, and enable more controlled release of information with industries impacted, with the intent of proving and sustaining professional trust, making the community a preferential setting for such dicussion.
The idea is to passively win out over disreputable technology workers by concentrating information, and internally vetting members. Membership must always be free and easy to obtain. It should be difficult to RETAIN, except through strict adherence to the rules. Membership thus gives access to a potentially huge archive of very specific information, and a potentially valuable asset in security consultency.
It wouldn't hold any legal protection or authority. It would simply be a stongly enforced "club", with a strong code of conduct.
The reason for multiple keypair generation is to frustrate attempts at collecting and brute forcing the data, and just accepting the added complexity tradeoff.
Re:The big brother society by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 20:38 · Score: 0

If it is possible, someone will make it. It might as well be us.
Listen to yourself. Shame on you!
Re:The big brother society by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 22:29 · Score: 0

The previous method, ID plates, are also read by machines, only just from the front or back, this just adds a few sides, left, right, top and down.
It's the best way to ensure that the billion additional people who'll get cars in the future don't kill or maim us.
If this method allows to weed out the morons who are incapable of using turn signs or stopping at red lights or obeying the speed limits, I'm for it.
Combined with an electronic license that starts the car only if it's valid and books fines automatically from the driver's account instead of forcing us to pay billions for police officers for this idiotic job it will make the traffic much more civilized.
I use my navigator on every trip, even if I know it by heart, because it warns me if I'm speeding. I don't see the point of watching all the time for signs behind trees and bushes and other crap that real police officers use to entrap us.
I would really like a cruise-control that gets its info from the navigator an sets its speed limit automatically instead of forcing me to adjust it all the time by hand to avoid radar traps.
Since the rise of the navigator I didn't get fined a single time.
I don't care for the 'freedom' to risk other people's lives.
Re:The big brother society by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 22:32 · Score: 0

"Blackhats would very quickly get permabanned by a whitehat community. "
Works only if you have a valid, functioning ID technology, that you people don't want.
Re:The big brother society by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 22:36 · Score: 0

"And how exactly do you expect to receive emails from legitimate businesses (such as a bill from your ISP)?"
Easy, I whitelist them, just as my phone rings only for the people in my address book and for some of them only during specific times of the day.
Re:The big brother society by Sigg3.net · 2012-10-03 23:12 · Score: 1

The four freedoms is such an attempt.
And better, because it isn't particular.
On the top of my head, I can name at least two times spam mail, for instance, have saved lives. (Japan earthquake, Arab spring.) And will save lives: codes messages in surveillance society.
Trust me, I'm a philosopher;)

--
Defining Statistics and Social Research
Re:The big brother society by AmiMoJo · 2012-10-04 00:04 · Score: 2

Time we started actively fighting back then. If this system is deployed someone should make a device for reading the data back from the side of the road, ideally something like a box a person can put on their property to do it. Then upload that data to a web site which displays the location of vehicles on a map. Watch the public go ape shit as they realize their location is now public whenever they drive.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:The big brother society by BasilBrush · 2012-10-04 00:07 · Score: 2

I guess the clue is in his username.
Re:The big brother society by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 01:55 · Score: 0

What do you mean, "you people"?
Re:The big brother society by kilfarsnar · 2012-10-04 02:07 · Score: 1

The previous method, ID plates, are also read by machines, only just from the front or back, this just adds a few sides, left, right, top and down. It's the best way to ensure that the billion additional people who'll get cars in the future don't kill or maim us.
If this method allows to weed out the morons who are incapable of using turn signs or stopping at red lights or obeying the speed limits, I'm for it.
Combined with an electronic license that starts the car only if it's valid and books fines automatically from the driver's account instead of forcing us to pay billions for police officers for this idiotic job it will make the traffic much more civilized. I use my navigator on every trip, even if I know it by heart, because it warns me if I'm speeding. I don't see the point of watching all the time for signs behind trees and bushes and other crap that real police officers use to entrap us. I would really like a cruise-control that gets its info from the navigator an sets its speed limit automatically instead of forcing me to adjust it all the time by hand to avoid radar traps. Since the rise of the navigator I didn't get fined a single time.
I don't care for the 'freedom' to risk other people's lives.
So, you're ok with the government tracking all of your movements as long as it keeps you from accidentally speeding. Either this is a bad piece of astroturfing, or the price of your freedom is way too low.

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"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Re:The big brother society by inject_hotmail.com · 2012-10-04 02:29 · Score: 1

Holy shit! You had the opportunity to engineer a motor that ran on spiced ham, and you...hold on a second, someone's sayin' something to me...

Ohhh, nevermind.
Re:The big brother society by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 03:01 · Score: 0

Crossing this argument over to the physical realm makes it all the more obvious.
Are you an ethical machinist if you design better, more reliable firearms?
Re:The big brother society by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 03:17 · Score: 0

I have an idea - we could do the same to prevent bad drivers. In the US in 2010 more than 32,000 people died in traffic accidents. The idea is to foster trust in a community of drivers who swear not to use their car improperly. We could put a transponder on the car to track compliance, plus mark the cars with the committed good drivers so that bad behaviors could be reported. Peer pressure + good monitoring would make road rage a thing of the past. Driving could be a strongly enforced "club" - it would be worth the extra tracking if even 50% of the deaths could be stopped, not to mention the rest of the collateral damage caused by too much freedom with cars.
Re:The big brother society by strikethree · 2012-10-04 03:44 · Score: 1

Simple things, like "I will not create mass mailers for commercial uses"
Just like machinists will refuse to make guns for mass murderers? In theory, a great idea. In reality, well... more thought is needed.
I have created at least one mass mailing program for "internal" use (the targets were the owner/user of certain configurations of computers). Internal is in quotes because the organization I wrote it for had locations on several continents and it seems weird to use the word internal in such a situation. Could the program have been repurposed and used outside of the organization? Of course (but extremely bloody unlikely).

--
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
Re:The big brother society by wierd_w · 2012-10-04 05:04 · Score: 1

I didn't mean for those suggestions to be strict cannon. I am only one person, and how I interperate the problem could be seen as oppressively restrictive by too many people. It was just a suggestion.
I was thinking more along the lines of bulk mailers, being created and operated with the intention of defeating inbox filtering technologies, attempting to confuse, mislead, or defraud readers, and unwanted distribution of advertising materials.
Newsletter mass mailed archives, mass mailed system messages concerning accounts, and other clearly desired and or desirable uses would not be considered willfully harmful, and I don't really see a way to say that they would be.
This is like arguing over the use of a scalpel in medicine. Sometimes you have to cut the patient to heal them, as ironic and backward as that seems. A blanket ban on mass mailers would be like banning scalpels. Pure folly.
Instead, the goal is to ensure only correct and proper use of such tools.
Re:The big brother society by ADRA · 2012-10-04 05:07 · Score: 1

"Big Brother" has been tracking your cell phone for at least 15 years now, so I fail to see how tracking of a person's location could ever get more intrusive. This is an added benefit for law enforcement's real problem of tracking auto-theft / toll dodgers.

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Bye!
Re:The big brother society by strikethree · 2012-10-04 05:09 · Score: 1

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. If you can get this idea to fly, I hope that you avoid hell.
Regards,
Dave

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"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
Re:The big brother society by mcgrew · 2012-10-04 06:03 · Score: 1

You missed a huge, glaring weak point in your plan: back in the ancient Greek days, there were few books, all hand-printed. The only place to learn was from a school.
Now, we have the internet. Anybody can learn anything (s)he has the grey matter to understand. Even when I was a kid, long before the internet existed, I had public libraries that taught me anything I wanted to know. Plus, we had an Encyclopedia Britannica (I read the whole thing when I was 12).
Learning is no longer hard. Keeping knowledge away from the ignorant is almost impossible.

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Free Martian Whores!
Re:The big brother society by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 07:35 · Score: 0

Keeping knowledge away from the ignorant is almost impossible.
Well, arguably that actually helps. An knowledgeable public makes better informed decisions on what software/technology to use
The problem is that knowledge is just as easily accessible to the malicious
Knowledge is a tool. It's neither good or evil. It's how you use it.
Re:The big brother society by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 08:35 · Score: 0

I'm certainly not hiring you to be my doctor.
Encyclopedia Britannica might be good for some things. I certainly wouldn't want my doctor using it to diagnose me though.
There is a bigger issue here. Who is doing the hiring. There is a market for big brother. It's government.
Even if nobody practiced unethical behavior elsewhere in the technology sphere this market will exist because big brother is willing to pay out out more.
Re:The big brother society by nobaloney · 2012-10-04 10:15 · Score: 1

I am not sure how expect these to work. Most mass mailers I have seen were for legitimate use.
Not always.
For example, to be effective in getting out huge numbers of emails out without getting mired in returns, spam mailers need to ignore delivery failures and non-acceptance, and just move on to the next address.
Years ago I was asked to create a mass mail system (hardware and software) for a company. I built it, delivered, and got paid. Then they came back to me and said they couldn't use it because it couldn't send mail; they said it got bogged down accepting delivery failure notices. Only took me a few minutes to figure out what they really wanted. Fortunately they had agreed to my spec, and it was detailed enough, that they couldn't come after me. If they could, I wonder if they would have.

Soon to be hacked by concealment · 2012-10-03 10:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

I clone your MAC address, I decrypt your Wi-Fi, and I own your basic electronics already.

Apply these relative basic skills and what do you have? A high-tech integrated system which can actually be used to conceal the identity of a vehicle behind a false identity, and charge up all sorts of services to the legitimate owner besides.

Re:Soon to be hacked by i_ate_god · 2012-10-03 10:46 · Score: 1

I didn't RTFA, but... it seems to me that there is no wifi involved.
It's just radio frequencies. this seems a lot harder to me.

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I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
Re:Soon to be hacked by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 10:51 · Score: 0

Why not just disable or destroy the chip in the vehicle that you steal???
Re:Soon to be hacked by Qzukk · 2012-10-03 10:54 · Score: 1

Or just steal someone else's chip. Less fishy than driving around in an "invisible" car.

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If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Re:Soon to be hacked by epp_b · 2012-10-03 11:34 · Score: 1

Right up until the point where they require licensing for any devices with this capability (or just outright ban them), no doubt ignoring the vast array of unintended consequences.
Re:Soon to be hacked by anubi · 2012-10-03 11:35 · Score: 1

I think your parent was pointing out that this technology can also be "weaponized", so as to be used to cause an innocent target to have incriminating evidence logged against them.

With the technological advances we have today, "Reddy Kilowatt" is being pressed into service as a very inexpensive 24/7 security watchman serving the interests of whoever instantiated him. If I am going to willingly have one of these watchmen instantiated in my vehicle, I also want it to summon armed enforcement in the event my vehicle is being violated or summon help in the event of a road emergency, from flat tire to hijacking..

Done right, this technology will make car theft a thing of the past. Being I am getting older myself ( and saw my neighbor succumb to a heart attack away from home ), it would be comforting to me to have a "emergency" button in my car that would hail law enforcement for me in the event I needed them.

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"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
Re:Soon to be hacked by Tom · 2012-10-03 11:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

You overestimate yourself and underestimate your enemies.
Sure you can hack some home WiFi. Your enemy is one guy, statistically speaking most likely someone with just enough computer know-how to reinstall windows.
Going up against a national system is a different game. Not just a different league, a different game. If they don't make the MPAA-stupidity-mistake (invent your own crypto and don't let anyone outside test it for weaknesses) or the typical software-company-mistake (do thinks cheap and fast so you have a great time-to-market, facepalm the day before release and say "oh btw, has anyone thought about security?"), or some other obvious ones, this can be very, very solid.
Crack NSA's SELinux to get a feel for what you're up against. Sure it's possible. All you need is either a serious mistake in the policy configuration, or a ring-0 exploit.
Yes, everything can be hacked. Don't expect to be the one doing it, though. If they do this properly, then a hundred other people have thought of your approach before, during the design, development and testing phases. Maybe they've put in an easter egg for you to find, to reward the effort.

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Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:Soon to be hacked by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 11:55 · Score: 0

Done right, this technology will make car theft a thing of the past. Being I am getting older myself ( and saw my neighbor succumb to a heart attack away from home ), it would be comforting to me to have a "emergency" button in my car that would hail law enforcement for me in the event I needed them.
GM already has that; it's called On Star: https://www.onstar.com/web/portal/landing
Re:Soon to be hacked by PlusFiveTroll · 2012-10-03 12:05 · Score: 1

Give me a running SELinux box with your data on it and it's likely I'll hack it.
The issue here is they are then handing it to the end user, possibly the criminal end user who can then poke and prod at it endlessly. The other issue is the 'state' doesn't have limitless money in making it work, see:'the lowest bidder'.
It's likely some group of researchers will find a way to break it quickly, and publish a paper on it. A group of technically inclined 'criminals' will turn the research in to a sell-able kit. Then actual criminals with $1500 (or whatever) will buy one. See credit card skimmers for an example.
Re:Soon to be hacked by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 12:06 · Score: 0

decrypt your Wi-Fi
You can recover my AES encrypted traffic? What does Schneier think of your attack?
Or maybe your just full of shit.
Re:Soon to be hacked by epyT-R · 2012-10-03 12:15 · Score: 4, Insightful

Fine. Get that service if you want. That doesn't mean it should be shoved down our throats by the state under the guise of safety. Would you want a policeman in your house 24/7 to 'monitor' your 'well being'? No? Why not?
Re:Soon to be hacked by ifiwereasculptor · 2012-10-03 13:04 · Score: 1

It's either tragic or funny, but Brazil's traffic dept. doesn't have the first clue about IT security. They use ye olde Windows and don't even bother configuring anything. Which means every user is an administrator and autorun is enabled. Keylogging is a real problem, but I suspect no one wants to secure anything properly because "oh, all those traffic tickets disappeared? I guess someone broke into my system again" is a great excuse for when you want to bail a friend or make a few extra bucks.
Re:Soon to be hacked by Dan667 · 2012-10-03 13:08 · Score: 1

for every successful SELinux there are hundreds if not thousands of tsa. I think his chances are actually pretty good.
Re:Soon to be hacked by marcosdumay · 2012-10-03 13:38 · Score: 2

That's excactly the rationale being used to sell the idea. That it will reduce car stealing, because the police will be able to follow a thief anywhere.
Also, it can be turned off.
I'm against the idea, but not by fear of the Big Brother, It is just that this is an explicit ploy to interfere in a market, taking my money at the gun-point, and sending it to a few choosen ones (the companies making tracking devices).
Anyway, it will probably do what is advertised, and reduce car stealing. It will send the criminals that today steal cars into other specialities, like kidnapings...

--
Rethinking email
Re:Soon to be hacked by klingers48 · 2012-10-03 13:55 · Score: 1

That's Ok... The way it's all going we're only a couple of years away from having our own mandatory tracking chips.
Re:Soon to be hacked by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 14:48 · Score: 0

He means WEP you smug fucktard. The point is that a lot of electronics inside your house may have internet connectivity, and that insecure setups can make it quite easy for a hacker to take control of many devices by hacking one vulnerability. Apply this to the gadgets in your car (and those outside the car that monitor it), and you could do a lot of damage to someone by giving misleading data to these devices.
Don't let common sense and reading comprehension get in the way of going passive-aggressive and defending your security skills though.
Re:Soon to be hacked by shiftless · 2012-10-03 16:16 · Score: 0

It's just radio frequencies. this seems a lot harder to me.
I'm a satellite communications engineer. Doesn't seem hard to me at all.
When software-defined radio becomes commonplace....it will be even more trivial.
Re:Soon to be hacked by guruevi · 2012-10-03 17:49 · Score: 1

WPA2 can also be cracked these days depending on the 'strength' of your password. If you use anything that's in the dictionary or any derivative of it it can be hacked in a matter of minutes. Random passwords with at least 8 characters are the least acceptable.
Either way, given governments around the world's ineptitude with security (see the various chip ID or bus card systems snafu's) in combination with the car manufacturers ineptitude in the same area (see BMW). I doubt this system will be very secure because of it's nature alone, it needs to be cheap, easy and work in various circumstances, the cost of cryptology will be too high.

--
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Re:Soon to be hacked by just_a_monkey · 2012-10-03 21:50 · Score: 1

Then the road you're travelling on will notify the police that someone is committing drivecrime on it.

--
How inappropriate to call this planet Earth, when clearly it is Ocean.
Re:Soon to be hacked by AmiMoJo · 2012-10-04 00:02 · Score: 1

Also, it can be turned off.
That's what the think, but wait until they see my car wrapped in tinfoil!

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:Soon to be hacked by itsthebin · 2012-10-04 00:52 · Score: 1

the "chip" would have to come for a car right next to the stolen car or else a flag would be raised about the teleporting vehicle
also it would have to be a car of similar mechanical characteristics - your stolen sportscar with its minibus "chip" might show up if they track time between readers.
similar would be driving characteristics of drivers showing up as patterns on readers on routes used a few times.

--
...I obey the laws of physics....
Re:Soon to be hacked by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 02:35 · Score: 0

It's not a secret that you can brute pretty much anything. When people talk about security features that "can be hacked", they generally mean that it can be hacked more easily than with a trivial brute force such as the various WEP exploits.
Re:Soon to be hacked by Tom · 2012-10-04 05:03 · Score: 1

I knew the TSA would come up.
Realize this: The TSA's job is not, never has been and never will be to provide any actual security worth mentioning. It's job is to create an impression of security and a reference for politicians that they've thought of the chiiiildren.
Look to Ben Gurion International Airport if you want to know how to do air traffic security properly.

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:Soon to be hacked by Tom · 2012-10-04 05:06 · Score: 1

I doubt this system will be very secure because of it's nature alone, it needs to be cheap, easy and work in various circumstances, the cost of cryptology will be too high.
Economics 101: The cost of a solid crypto and hardware system is a one-time cost. Divided by the number of vehicles that'll use it over, say, the next ten years, it'll probably come out to less than a burger.

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:Soon to be hacked by Tom · 2012-10-04 05:12 · Score: 1

Give me a running SELinux box with your data on it and it's likely I'll hack it.
I actually used that back when I was giving speeches about SELinux. I'd put my IP address and root password on the blackboard at the conference. Someone once managed to drop a file into the root home directory due to a policy configuration error. That's as far as anyone has ever gotten.
I've not been doing SELinux for a few years, so I don't have a box around. But you can check if Russell's play machine is still up:
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/play.html

The issue here is they are then handing it to the end user, possibly the criminal end user who can then poke and prod at it endlessly.

And?
Security by obscurity is worthless anyways. Nobody can hack your machine because he could examine it. He can maybe hack it a bit quicker, but if he can hack it after examination, he could hack it without.

It's likely some group of researchers will find a way to break it quickly, and publish a paper on it.

Great! Then the problem can be fixed. Ideally, this happens before it hits the mass-market. If not, you'll have to upgrade existing devices. For a government mandated device, that's not half as troublesome as for private/commercial crap.

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Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:Soon to be hacked by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 06:39 · Score: 0

He means WEP you smug fucktard.
Lets see if we can decipher what "he" "means".

I clone your MAC address, I decrypt your Wi-Fi, and I own your basic electronics already.
Hmm. No mention of WEP whatsoever.
Lot of vainglorious alpha-geeks make big claims about hacking wireless. Most of them, like `concealment', are full of shit and perpetuate FUD about wireless.
Re:Soon to be hacked by PlusFiveTroll · 2012-10-04 07:10 · Score: 1

You mis-understood. I said 'give' me your SELinux box. Not make it available online. Physical access opens far more avenues of attack, like plugging in to the PCI-E buss and reading all the memory for example. Securing a device against unchecked, unlimited physical access is probably impossible at least until we get quantum cryptography figured out.
>Nobody can hack your machine because he could examine it
Who said just examine it? When you give someone something they can modify it. You seem to have virtual and physical constructs confused.
Re:Soon to be hacked by guruevi · 2012-10-04 16:31 · Score: 1

Yes, that may be true for computer systems but working with micro controllers and radio frequency and encryption is a whole other beast.
(Good) encryption requires no-fault transmission (or error correction/resend mechanics a la TCP), key exchanges, authentication and authorization on both sides and calculating large factors on-demand. If you don't do that, you'll get stuck with garbage data, one extraction leading to all devices being compromised, impostors and scammers or very weak keys.
Doing that in the conditions demanded here (fractions of a second on multiple moving, bouncing, variable targets) is really hard. Doing it really cheap even harder. Making it so such things can be installed correctly by the average gear head...

--
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Re:Soon to be hacked by Tom · 2012-10-04 22:39 · Score: 1

It does depend on your threat-scenario, of course.
If you need statistical data, the unique IDs are just there to avoid counting errors. It doesn't matter if they can be manipulated, forged, whatever. So what if the bank robbers pass by without being counted due to their disabled transponder? That's a 1-car counting error on your "how much use does this street get" statistics, and doesn't matter.
For toll collection, etc. you would need to build the more reliable stations, and maybe people would still need to drive into lanes and slow down while driving through, but not come to a stop anymore. That would still be a gain, and give you the isolated targets and time required for a reliable exchange.
The basics of my argument remain: If you assume that someone with a large enough budget really wants to get this right, then it can be done. It's not trivial, it will need money and time and expertise, but there is no reason to assume theoretically that it will be as easy to hack as a private WiFi.

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:Soon to be hacked by Tom · 2012-10-04 22:44 · Score: 1

Physical access opens far more avenues of attack
Ah. Yes, I indeed misunderstood that part. Agreed, physical access changes the game. It means you need to add tamper-resistance and temper-evidence to the equation. Again, something that someone with a bug budget who wants to get it right can do.
As with the electronic security, there is no 100% security, but you can definitely make it so costly and troublesome that your average murderer or bank robber can't get it done. And definitely not some random guy who wants to frame someone else.
And, most importantly, you'd have to train law enforcement and judges to treat this data as just another piece of evidence, not godlike truth.

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:Soon to be hacked by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-05 09:07 · Score: 0

You missed the point completely. I can't tell if you're mentally challenged or just trolling.
"Concealment" isn't trying to make a point about WiFi being hacked. He's just stating "decrypt your wifi" as part of the steps required for a greater goal.
The AC in comment #41544563 completely misses this point and instead makes a jab at the wifi decryption part, going sarcastic by mentioning Scheiner (as if concealment claimed he could hack WPA2-PSK-AES), etc.
"Concealment" didn't seem to me like he was bragging able being able to hack WPA2. He merely stated that WiFi is hackable (which it is), and that this would allow other things to happen (namely give you access to a whole lot of eggs in the same basket if more and more electronics start having connectivity)
#41544563 and you are the "vainglorious alpha-geeks" here. No one is trying to make a big claim about hacking wireless. Instead of foaming at the mouth while thinking about how you will "own" the next person you reply to, try trying to understand what they may be saying.
Interesting fact: The only two posts in this thread with a rating worth mentioning are ones that acknowledge that hacking a wifi network is possible. Tom made the point that this sort of system might be very hard to hack, which would make the whole "eggs in the same basket" part irrelevant.

That seems quite out of character for... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 10:43 · Score: 0

...Brazil.

Re:That seems quite out of character for... by Mister+Transistor · 2012-10-03 10:45 · Score: 2

The Ministry of Information Retrieval would like to speak with you sir...

--
-- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
Re:That seems quite out of character for... by marcosdumay · 2012-10-03 13:40 · Score: 2

That movie is very aptly named.

--
Rethinking email

Dupe by stevenh2 · 2012-10-03 10:48 · Score: 3, Informative

Dupe - http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/08/11/0142205/in-brazil-all-vehicles-must-have-radio-ids-by-2014

Re:Dupe by MobileTatsu-NJG · 2012-10-03 11:58 · Score: 2

A dupe on Slashdot means a change in the Matrix....

--

"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

Let me guess... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 10:49 · Score: 1

.... It will take under 1 week for the organized crime elements to fully understand and then implement effective countermeasures.

Now, back at square 1, enjoy your 3mph over the limit speeding tix!

Re:Let me guess... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 12:09 · Score: 0

It wouldn't be organized crime. More like likely it would be like DX.com and the likes selling car RFID jammers along with their cell phone, GPS jammers.

Thank you, Big Brother! by Bill+Dimm · 2012-10-03 10:50 · Score: 3, Funny

authorities will be able to integrate all kinds of services, such as traffic tickets

Remember the bad old days, when police inconvenienced you with long stops while they wrote you a ticket just when you most urgently needed to get somewhere? Well, those days are gone! Now, a pile of tickets will arrive in your mail each day without you ever being held up by those pesky police. We hope you appreciate the convenience we've brought you while you're speeding off to your destination.

Sincerely,
Big Brother

Re:Thank you, Big Brother! by marcosdumay · 2012-10-03 13:45 · Score: 1

Hello, time traveler.
It looks like you come from the middle XX century. We already have that automatic stream of tickets you are speaking of. Today we get them from cameras... But everybody knows it is just a matter of time untill we get a more aware system that tracks you everywhere.
Anyway, computers are still quite stupid. The people that want to decieve those systems do. That too will change with time, and it will probably both remove the problem of unreliable humans operating cars, and create much bigger problems for us to care about.

--
Rethinking email
Re:Thank you, Big Brother! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 18:19 · Score: 0

Remember the bad old days
What's wrong with /. tonight? There aren't any "think of the children" comments yet...
Re:Thank you, Big Brother! by OhHellWithIt · 2012-10-04 02:03 · Score: 1

Remember the bad old days, when police inconvenienced you with long stops while they wrote you a ticket just when you most urgently needed to get somewhere?
Eliminating roadside stops would be a bad idea. I'm pretty sure that spending 15-20 minutes on the side of the road when one is in a hurry is yet another disincentive for speeding. Sure, a hundred bucks for the ticket and an increase in insurance are disincentives, too, but there are plenty of people out there who would blow these things off but be incensed by a delay.

--
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell

1984. Not just a book or conspiracy theory anymore by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 10:53 · Score: 1

But real-life reality.

Single point of failure by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 11:00 · Score: 0

Big brother concerns aside, I'd be worried about becoming too reliant on the new tracking system.

Criminals could figure out how to jam the chip with a small handheld device. This would make their car vanish off the grid, making it hard to find or chase by police departments that have grown reliant on the tracking system. It might end up being easier to steal a car or hide one's illicit activities.

What if your car's tracking chip malfunctions? Would you now be the owner of a 'ghost' car that you can't get serviced, registered, insured, etc? Would you get lost in some chicken-and-egg bureaucracy making it impossible to use your car lawfully? "Sorry sir. You can't get a chip without a car, and it's not a car without a chip" (Even today, try dealing with a car that's had its VIN plates defaced/removed/tampered with. The car becomes useless because everyone assumes it's stolen or an illegally repaired junker)

Awesome! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 11:01 · Score: 0

I can't wait until they start sharing this data with private companies for direct advertising and what not.

Re:1984. Not just a book or conspiracy theory anym by Githaron · 2012-10-03 11:01 · Score: 1

I guess he should have written the book in Portuguese.

I will replace these chips for you for a small fee by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 11:03 · Score: 0

Act now prices will be going up soon.
What a bunch of retards.
Hurry up American politicians you know you want it too. Just as soon as someone fills your pockets to support it.

Drawbacks? Obviously none ... by Ravensfire · 2012-10-03 11:04 · Score: 1

Nope! No drawbacks here. Why would the headline be written in anything other than pure, positive spin? Especially since this was probably posted from a chipped car with big brother watching quite carefully for any accidents, traffic or wrong thoughts.

-- Ravensfire

--
"But we decide which is right, and which is an illusion"

On the bright side... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 11:04 · Score: 0

The one good thing about this scheme is that it depends on Brasil being able to sustain some sort of massive public infrastructure for more than three years, which means it'll probably fail horribly.

Re:On the bright side... by Githaron · 2012-10-03 11:14 · Score: 3, Interesting

It would fail outside the major cities at least. The cops over there can't even keep people from hacking into the water and power system. I went to one place where there was a literal "wrong side of the tracks". On one side, everyone paid for their utilities. On the other side, water was spraying out of pipes duck taped into each other in all directions and extension cords were running under the tracks. I am curious, are you Brazilian? You spelled Brazil with an "s" instead of a "z" like Brazilians.

We be jammin by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 11:05 · Score: 0

Will take on new meaning in brazil. Timetk take some stock in radio jammers

wont stop thierves; crooks by wierd_w · 2012-10-03 11:05 · Score: 4, Interesting

The "must be tagged" law will not prevent theft, and will not prevent other criminal activities.

It does not prevent the criminals from disabling a tag, altering a tag, or replacing the tag.

What the tracking system ultimately tracks are the tags. Not the vehicles.

As such, removing the tags, and then transporting the vehicle under a different but "valid" tag would make an effective means of breaking this system.

The real benefit to law enforcement/government is *NOT* combating criminals, it is tracking law abidding citizens.

I would expect catch-22s like "we show your vehicle at the scene" in one case and "you can't prove that isn't a fake transponder being used to put you on the other side of the country" in another, with the difference being the desire of the prosecutor.

(Eg, "iron-clad, irrefutable!" When used to show guilt, and "suspect, clearly a technological fabrication!" When used to assert innocense.)

If anything, this masure will spawn a new form of criminal activity, buying, selling, and provisioning counterfiet/shady transponders.

Re:wont stop thierves; crooks by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 11:48 · Score: 0

Until if you drive without a tag, it will alert the police that it could be a stolen car.
It would be better if it acted like Find My Phone from Apple. And if the car can be remotely disabled. I think On-Star does this too.
Re:wont stop thierves; crooks by wierd_w · 2012-10-03 11:54 · Score: 2

Low tech solution for organized car theft:
Get a car dealership "on the take."
The used car guy gets cash under the table to 'lose' some activated transponders, and wait before reporting them "stolen".
The car thieves remove and disable the currently installed transponder, and install the "shady" one from the used car accomplice.
They drive away with the stolen car, and offload it in say, argentina. The monitoring system records it as a valid transponder. It doesn't know the difference, because it tracks transponders, and not vehicles.
36 hours later, the car dealer reports the transponders "stolen".
By then the car could be in any number of countries.
Re:wont stop thierves; crooks by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 12:35 · Score: 0

So what you're saying is that this is a job creation solution.
Re:wont stop thierves; crooks by marcosdumay · 2012-10-03 13:49 · Score: 2

The intent is neither to combat criminals, nor to track citizens. (If you think the Brazilian government is competent enough to track citizens, you must check your sanity again.)
The intent of this law is to make a few corporations rich.

--
Rethinking email
Re:wont stop thierves; crooks by volmtech · 2012-10-03 16:49 · Score: 1

This is why they also have a camera with automobile recognition software that can tell individual makes of cars apart along side the transponder receivers. Your car is tracked continuously. If your transponder showed up on the other side of town without being tracked along the way, it wasn't you. If the criminals used an identical car, same color, drove it from your house to the crime scene, then drove it back to your house before they disabled their clone transponder, maybe. But then their car would have to have driven to your house with a different transponder and records would show a car identical to yours driving to and away from your house. At least here in the states it would do away with the need for uninsured motorist insurance. Any car without insurance would be flagged and stopped.

Haha I've seen this movie by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 11:08 · Score: 0

They called it "Brazil" too.

There are no Wrong Thoughts by handy_vandal · 2012-10-03 11:20 · Score: 1

Perhaps you are thinking of ungood thoughts ... or maybe even plus-ungood thoughts.

By the way: is your Newspeak license valid, citizen? or do I need to report you?

--
-kgj

Fix your old car instead of buying new ones by SpaceManFlip · 2012-10-03 11:21 · Score: 2

Does everyone have to buy a new car equipped with all the integrated RFID/transponder gadgetry to participate in the mandated tracking system?
This type of thing, and the upcoming "black box" additions to new cars sold in the USA, are perfect examples of why you should not buy new cars frequently. Instead, repair whatever goes wrong with your current/old car and stop being so damn wasteful. Pick a good car that you like and keep it going.
I learned how to do almost all of my own car repair for this purpose. It's not nearly as hard as understanding C programming or being fluent with the Linux shell. You just have to man up and get your hands dirty. The rewards come as bountiful savings of money and inability to comply with new-vehicle tracking mandates.

Re:Fix your old car instead of buying new ones by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 11:24 · Score: 0

I prefer to keep the skin on my knuckles.
Re:Fix your old car instead of buying new ones by M.+Baranczak · 2012-10-03 15:08 · Score: 1

It's not nearly as hard as understanding C programming or being fluent with the Linux shell. You just have to man up and get your hands dirty.
And if you need an impact wrench or a valve spring compressor, you can't just download an open-source copy.
Re:Fix your old car instead of buying new ones by CodeBuster · 2012-10-03 15:36 · Score: 1

inability to comply with new-vehicle tracking mandates.
What's to prevent them, some years down the line if not immediately, from requiring that you retrofit your existing older car to have this device installed ala LoJack or satellite radio or any number of other devices that owners currently voluntarily install into their older vehicles?
Re:Fix your old car instead of buying new ones by shiftless · 2012-10-03 17:44 · Score: 0

No, but you can borrow one from the parts store.
Start looking for ways you can, not ways you can't.
Re:Fix your old car instead of buying new ones by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 02:11 · Score: 0

What's to prevent them, some years down the line if not immediately, from requiring that you retrofit your existing older car to have this device installed ala LoJack or satellite radio or any number of other devices that owners currently voluntarily install into their older vehicles?
6-volt positive ground electrical systems, for one.

"Services" by epp_b · 2012-10-03 11:22 · Score: 2

Traffic tickets are not a "service". A service implies that you actually get something useful in return.

Re:"Services" by wierd_w · 2012-10-03 11:28 · Score: 1

Devil's advocate pedantry:
It could be argued that pervasive and panopticon-like enforcement of traffic regulations could result in a fantastically superior motorist environment, where people speeding; performing rolling stops; and performing dangerous lane changes become a thing of the past due to automated creation of moving violations.
*reality:*
The problem however, will be with technological erros showing people speeding when they really aren't from multipath reflections, people being charged for driving without transponders illegally from having the tags fail due to water intrusions into the antenna, and a whole host of other things that would fall under the culpability of government to fix, but never will be, due to lack of incentive or interest.
Re:"Services" by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 11:46 · Score: 0

If you ever saw how they drive down there, you would realize that any system that tried to track all traffic violations would probably crash under the load.
Re:"Services" by Tom · 2012-10-03 11:46 · Score: 5, Insightful

Traffic tickets are not a "service". A service implies that you actually get something useful in return.
You assume that the service always has to be towards the subject. It doesn't. The police performs a service when it arrests a burglar, but the service isn't towards the burglar, it is towards the house owner. Traffic tickets are a service to the other participants of traffic, because by punishing undesireable behaviour they limit it.
Yeah, we can talk all night about how reality sometimes differs and how speeding traps are often put not at the spots where speeding is dangerous but where they'll catch the most people, etc. etc. - that's implementation details.

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:"Services" by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 11:50 · Score: 0

I don't like this trend of sacrificing freedom for security... *sigh*
Re:"Services" by epyT-R · 2012-10-03 12:42 · Score: 2

yeah.. details that make it less about safety and more about oppressive control and profit.
Re:"Services" by artor3 · 2012-10-03 14:13 · Score: 2

There is no freedom without (some) security. Obviously, the pendulum is currently swinging too far to one side, and we need to correct that, but the opposite extreme is also to be avoided. If you spend every waking hour scrounging for food in a jungle while praying not to get caught by a roving warband, you are most certainly not free.
Remember Roosevelt's four freedoms: Freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom from want, and freedom from fear. His particular statement of them was overly narrow (e.g. his freedom from fear applied only to fear of war), and the second can probably be rolled into the first, but the concept is sound, and much more useful than the vague "life, liberty, pursuit of happiness/money".
Ticketing bad drivers helps to free the rest of us from fear of being injured or killed on the roads, without excessive punishment for the offenders. That's a net gain. Tracking everyone's every move would free us from that fear of bad drivers even more... while simultaneously giving us reason to fear the government, not to mention costing a fortune (paid for by taxes), thus hurting our freedom from want. That's a pretty clear net loss.
Re:"Services" by thogard · 2012-10-03 14:21 · Score: 1

Victoria Australia has been doing this experiment with a 3% tolerance on speeding. The result is accident counts have not decreased since they started it, congestion has gone up , the deaths per km driven is increasing and the deaths per hour while traveling are also going up. The increased congestion seems to be killing pedestrians at a might higher rate too. We are not seeing any of the advantages that newer cars should be providing to the accident rates. The roads are moving fewer people and injuring more of them. If they didn't change the way they count the victims, all stats would be significantly worse but they are moving more medical related crashes out of the crash stats.
Re:"Services" by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 14:27 · Score: 0

The rule is five "etc." in a row. Stopping at two is just stupid.
Re:"Services" by Mitreya · 2012-10-03 15:00 · Score: 2

Traffic tickets are a service to the other participants of traffic, because by punishing undesireable behaviour they limit it. ... speeding traps are often put not at the spots where speeding is dangerous but where they'll catch the most people
I think you may have contradicted yourself there.
Punishing undesirable behavior would require targeting the "unsafe" places. That's not really an "implementation detail", that hijacking the original/stated purpose (keeping highways safe) and rerouting it to the new purpose (making money for the local municipality).
Also, I am pretty sure that "unsafe" speeds are mostly relative. Someone going +30miles with traffic is nowhere near as dangerous as a person weaving around/passing at +15miles. So "implementation details" make a difference in what the practice actually achieves.
Re:"Services" by wierd_w · 2012-10-03 16:28 · Score: 1

It sounds like they need to isolate traffic, and increase the speed limit.
(Eg, isolate pedestrians from motorvehicle routes, with catwalks instead of crosswalks, install entry and exit lanes beside highways, and increase highway speeds.)
See for example, the East Kellog (US 400) expansion in wichita kansas on google streetview. You will notice that there is an isolated entry/exit lane that fascilitates getting into the sidstreets, and a completely uninhibited arterial flow after that on the US 400 highway. Cross streets literally either go over or under 400, as do pedestrian sidewalks.
In some places, especially near schools, you will see dedicated catwalks for pedestrians.
Re:"Services" by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 16:57 · Score: 0

But remember, state revenue is up, they're saving lives, children are safer, and state revenue is up.
Re:"Services" by Tom · 2012-10-04 05:15 · Score: 1

I think you may have contradicted yourself there.
I don't think so. I juxtaposed theory and practice. As I said: I'm with you when you want to argue that the way in which this is actually being done is not always how it should be. But the point that traffic tickets aren't a service because you pay and get nothing in return is simply wrong for the reasons I stated.

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:"Services" by Tom · 2012-10-04 05:17 · Score: 1

Can I send you my bank details and you transfer me your life insurance and retirement savings? You don't need that security, but you do sacrifice some (financial) freedom for it by paying into it every month. I will gladly relieve you of that burden.

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:"Services" by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 09:02 · Score: 0

The service is not to you but to the authority

Law and Disorder in Brazil by handy_vandal · 2012-10-03 11:26 · Score: 1

The police in Sao Paolo have bigger problems than policing the citizenry:

... more than 70 police officers killed this year in São Paulo, Brazil’s largest and most powerful state. The sharp increase in murders of police officers, up almost 40 percent since last year, has raised fears of a resurgence of the First Capital Command, a criminal organization that carried out a harrowing four-day uprising here in 2006 during which almost 200 people were killed.
Alarm Grows in São Paulo as More Police Officers Are Murdered

--
-kgj

All kinds of services by Attila+Dimedici · 2012-10-03 11:32 · Score: 2

authorities will be able to integrate all kinds of services, such as traffic tickets, licensing and annual taxes, automatic toll charge, and much more.

Such as keeping track of who attends opposition political meetings and making sure that they do not get government contracts (and do get extra visits from the police).

--
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison

Great thing for us in Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 11:35 · Score: 1

Really, our traffic is terrible in most cities. Anything that can help to make it better is a good thing.

Yeah, privacy is a concern, i hope they make it in a way that it won't be abused. But considering the total lack of respect brazilian motorists have in traffic this will help a lot. We have here a lot of fatal accidents with pedestrians and cyclists that the motorist simply just run away and no one sees who it was, with a system like this it'll be possible to get a list of suspects very easily in this kind of situation, motorists simply won't run away when they know they can be tracked.

The range of the signal is just 5 meters, and to install it'll cost only R$5,00 something like U$2,50. If the rang was big i would love to have it on my bike also, i would put it glue inside the frame, no way to remove it into the street.

Re:Great thing for us in Brazil by epyT-R · 2012-10-03 12:49 · Score: 2

Anything that can help to make it better is a good thing.
Anything? really? How about all traffic violations punished with the death penalty? No? Why not?

Yeah, privacy is a concern, i hope they make it in a way that it won't be abused.
Yes because even without the electronics, governments have historically respected liberty, freedom, and due process when using the information gathered from monitoring policies.. What kind of crack are you smoking?

The range of the signal is just 5 meters,

Radio doesn't work like that.

If the rang was big i would love to have it on my bike also, i would put it glue inside the frame, no way to remove it into the street.
so, the abuse of your fellow citizens by your government is a-ok as long as the government protects your bike for you? You selfish twat. I hope you're not like most brazillians..
Re:Great thing for us in Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 12:54 · Score: 0

Anything that can help to make it better is a good thing.
Anything? really? How about all traffic violations punished with the death penalty? No? Why not?

Yeah, privacy is a concern, i hope they make it in a way that it won't be abused.
Yes because even without the electronics, governments have historically respected liberty, freedom, and due process when using the information gathered from monitoring policies.. What kind of crack are you smoking?

The range of the signal is just 5 meters,
Radio doesn't work like that.

If the rang was big i would love to have it on my bike also, i would put it glue inside the frame, no way to remove it into the street.
so, the abuse of your fellow citizens by your government is a-ok as long as the government protects your bike for you? You selfish twat. I hope you're not like most brazillians..
Unfortunately he is.
Re:Great thing for us in Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 02:28 · Score: 0

People do not see that privacy is and should not be a commodity. Facebook has taken that perspective from us but your information is what separates you from anyone else.

To most people privacy goes only along the way of their own ID numbers and PINs but take into consideration people in countries where their civil rights are very limited.

The problem in Brazil is not that people don't think privacy is important is just that they either don't remember when their civil rights were taken (60's to 80's) or they were not alive or adults at the time (people in their 35 years and below). In fact, privacy and civil rights is something they always had so they don't see it so valuable.

I digress but it's the same situation as that female researcher (right) who says she doesn't own anything to feminism but the only reason she can actually do (what she calls) research is because women in decades before her, through feminism, worked so hard to achieve.

We already have this here in the US. by Ungrounded+Lightning · 2012-10-03 11:42 · Score: 4, Interesting

The big brother society ... Marches on steady. Unstoppable and with an insatiable appetite for new technology

It also deploys very quietly these days. It's already up and running before people notice it's there.

We already HAVE four federally mandated car trackers on all passenger cars (along with most other vehicles) since 2007.

It's called a "Tire Pressure Monitoring System". It works by having (typically) a lithium-cell powered device in the valve stem on each wheel that transmits the tire pressure information along with a unique serial number (so your dashboard computer doesn't get confused by nearby cars). These can also be read by loops in the road.

--
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way

Re:We already have this here in the US. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 12:49 · Score: 0

These can also be read by loops in the road.
At intersections, sure, but not while traveling. TPMS transmission power and data rate aren't anywhere near adequate for that.
Re:We already have this here in the US. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 13:15 · Score: 3, Informative

They're also not registered to the car.
Re:We already have this here in the US. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 16:25 · Score: 1

TPMS in combination with visual numberplate recognition can register the car. You are insufficiently paranoid.
Re:We already have this here in the US. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 02:04 · Score: 0

your dashboard computer
My car was manufactured in 1955, you insensitive clod!
Re:We already have this here in the US. by tatman · 2012-10-04 03:12 · Score: 1

San Francisco considered reading TPS values at tooth booths to fine drivers with under inflated tires.....

--
I've always said English was my second language. Had Romeo and Juliet been written in C, I might have understood it.

They cannot lawfully do this. by j0ebaker · 2012-10-03 11:43 · Score: 1

All one has to do is to make the case that their life would be endangered by being a whistle blower to government corruption if the government knew where their vehicle was at all times. Or explain cases where there is spousal abuse where the aggressor bribes a government worker, or pays a hacker to hack in and disclose the whereabouts of the spouse.

Besides one had a right to travel anonymously and rights cannot be converted into privileges nor can they be taken away.

Brazil was pretty cool with their uptake of Open Source Software. But this sounds pretty damn lame to me in terms of civil liberties.

Governments around the world are loosing their ability to totally control the reality experience of the common individual. Thank you very much for for trying to entertain us, but we have lives to live here on this planet and beyond - leave us be.

Governments are illusions for the delusional.
Snap out of it!
JB

That's why I live in America! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 11:47 · Score: 0

We are free from illegal searches and seizures. We are free...oh, wait. (Damn Patriot Act screwing up my patriotic rant, again)

Re:That's why I live in America! by ThatsMyNick · 2012-10-03 12:39 · Score: 1

In America, all the state needs to do is, install license plate readers in strategic location (just like they have done in NY and in some other states)

we have someting like this here in the US. by logicassasin · 2012-10-03 11:52 · Score: 1

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/04/19/192207/expect-mandatory-big-brother-black-boxes-in-all-new-cars-from-2015

--
Fifty watts per channel, baby cakes.

Brazilian cells? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 12:02 · Score: 0

Brazilian drivers should swap RF chips at random intervals. That way, the government will track the chips, not the cars.

Bring it on!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 12:38 · Score: 1

Wow - we could see a whole new vector in disruptive services.

Imagine a transponder (powered by Linux :) ) that sends out millions of random RFID numbers per second - effectively jamming the receiver! Imagine bolting that onto your car and going for a drive!

Imagine if millions of people did that in the country? Chaos!

Hmmmm... How about stationary units? That could be even more fun!

Pfft by tobiah · 2012-10-03 12:42 · Score: 1

I've seen Brazil, it's like 90% illegal. As in the houses, utilities, economy. Rio has an unlicensed bus system by a loose affiliation of van-owners that is way more popular than the official one. There is not a single law there that a majority of the population obeys.

--
"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool" - Jane Wagner -

Re:Pfft by stuporglue · 2012-10-03 13:46 · Score: 2

I lived in Brazil for 3 years, and while it's a lot easier to find the black market in Brazil than in the US, it's no where near 90% illegal. Even where Redock and Abbedias type knock-off options are available Brazilians recognize and would rather have the real deal.
For the most part the people who have illegal utilities are shack dwellers (even poorer than those in brick-built favelas). Even most of the brick buildings in the favelas have an electric and water meter attached and in use.
The combi vans are popular and cheaper than the bus, but police busts make them risky, and they're hard to get in and out of. As a result it's mostly poorer working men who need to save the R$0.25 per ride who take them.
My experience was mainly in Minas Gerais and Sao Paulo (the city itself and several suburbs), so maybe Rio is a different story.

--
https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm -- Show your support for the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archiv
Re:Pfft by marcosdumay · 2012-10-03 13:59 · Score: 1

The government has no danm business into saying what bus I can or can not take. Except that people here don't complain about big government like in the US, they just ignore it.

--
Rethinking email
Re:Pfft by EmagGeek · 2012-10-03 23:25 · Score: 1

Go to Nova Odessa, Campinas, Americana, or other "exurbs" of Sao Paulo and it becomes a very different story. These are the places where red lights are truly truly mean "if you want to get mugged, robbed, and have your car stolen, stop here."
In Americana there is a black market propane truck that will drive around and sell you propane off quota and off tax. It's disguised as an ice cream truck and even plays the little tune as it drives around. If you order a certain ice cream, they'll pull around the side of your house and do a quick fill (usually not more than about 10lbs in a shot to keep the time down, and that's all people there can afford).

harder for thieves? by nurb432 · 2012-10-03 13:05 · Score: 1

Ya, they wont disable the transmitter, that would be against the law.

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---- Booth was a patriot ----

Re:harder for thieves? by fonitrus · 2012-10-03 17:15 · Score: 1

only in the initial phases of this. dont be fooled this wont be used to further goals. like traffic flow management.
once every car is jacked with these devices you can have a computerised traffic detection system that manages traffic lights or with the new Google self driven cars a automated way to go places.
Now what happens when you remove a transponder from a vehicle and the traffic system detects a gap in traffic and sugests you speed up. now pair that with a faulty front detection sensor in the car or 'deliberately' altered sensor and you have the computer trying to speed up to fill the 'gap' in traffic.
I would hate to be the thief if the gap filler was a big semi trailer fully loaded :) :) coming over me to optimise traffic flow :)

All? by nitehawk214 · 2012-10-03 13:49 · Score: 1

All cars? Presumably they only want to track cars in their own country.

--
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust

HOGWASH! by p51d007 · 2012-10-03 13:52 · Score: 1

Anyone who gives up a little LIBERTY, in the name of SECURITY, deserves NEITHER! "Benefits also include more security"

How Brazil works by submain · 2012-10-03 15:27 · Score: 4, Informative

Brasil is a communal society; we could care less for individual rights. Heck, if the entire country goes out on the streets naked every February, there is no need for individualism.

That being said, it's really hard to enforce a law in Brasil, mostly because it is a matter of national pride to find a way around the rules. They can put as many transponders as they want, but if all the population gets are tickets, then even the dealerships will have an "unofficial" - official - system to remove the tags.

The same thing happened with DVD players way back. Companies tried to force consumers to only get players for region 7. Except that, when you bought a DVD player, the salesman himself would write a code in a piece of paper that you could use to unlock all the regions.

Of course, if the system is used properly, then people won't bother. They could care less if some random guy knows if they are going to churches or brothels.

Re:How Brazil works by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 20:30 · Score: 0

OK once I would let slide but twice in one post I have to make a comment. It is "couldn't care less" not "could care less". Think about it for a moment. "could care less" doesn't even make any god damn sense if you are trying to point how little you care about something.
Back on topic. You won't care right up and until your tags (legitimate or copied) put you in the vicinity of a murder and your authoritarian police force pin it on you because it is convenient and you have no alibi.
Re:How Brazil works by echetto · 2012-10-04 01:30 · Score: 1

As a foreigner living in Brazil, I totally agree with you in " it is a matter of national pride to find a way around the rules" part
Once I heard a really nice talk to security experts, saying that's a competitive advantage of Brazil to being that way: if a system works fine here, it'll will work fine anywere.
Re:How Brazil works by oreiasecaman · 2012-10-04 11:01 · Score: 1

That being said, it's really hard to enforce a law in Brasil, mostly because it is a matter of national pride to find a way around the rules.
Brazilian here. And I disagree with with you. Most people I've known are law-abiding citizens, and work hard all year round. Sure, most have people have flaws and err now and then (illegal parking, speeding... throwing trash on the streets). But saying that people here are hellbent on bypassing all laws is incorrect, and offending.

--
This is a UDP joke, I don't care if you get it or not...

Brazilian Explain by superflit · 2012-10-03 15:55 · Score: 3, Informative

OK,

It is VERY FUNNY how foreigners or first world people think about that.
The REAL reason is:

TAXES, FEES and revenues.

The Brazilian gov. only cares about revenues and taxes to keep it's dysfunctional dept. and employees.
Brazil was one of the first countries to have its IRS system on internet, paying taxes on INTERNET.

In one of my country roads, there is a camera that read the tags and check if the license is ok.
If not it sends a alert to the next police station with details.
The police see: White car, tag xx xxx
He stop and tow the car.

But if you go at night that does not work.
So the brazilian govt is going deeper.

In sao Paolo you have SOME days you can use your car, if you use on 'not allowed' days and you get caught you get a fine.
So this is the reason for the tags.

'hmmmmm..you moved your car 1 mile in your not allowed day, please pay'

Now I will wait for my fellows brazilians say that 'it is not like that.' and how our govt 'really ' cares about us..

American cars are already being tracked by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 16:03 · Score: 0

Most cars in America have GPS chips in the main system as part of the built-in optional road-side assistance and by defalt it turns on with the car and is broadcasting by defalt it's just if your not paying for any of those services it is not listed as being "available" but in 5min anyone with the right equipment can tell where you have been in the last 3-6 months (depending on the model of GPS system) stop by stop with times and dates.

The car manufactures just don't talk about it because it makes it easy for anyone to track anyone with ease

Re:1984. Not just a book or conspiracy theory anym by shiftless · 2012-10-03 16:20 · Score: 0

Good luck pointing it out to anyone and getting them to believe it. Best of luck trying to point out the parallels between today's America and yesterday's Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, etc. People just roll their eyes and go back to cheering about the DRUG ADDICT mom who was arrested and her kids taken by the State, after the standard Fifteen Minutes of Hate directed at the Other Party on TV.

Shadowrun Anyone by fonitrus · 2012-10-03 17:05 · Score: 1

Shdowrun, The Grid, AR world. hmm good times good times coming to us. Hope the Magic Awakening is also on the cards. I want to be an magical elf shaman with a big A$$ dicoted katana and gyromounted minigun :) Yea good times

Re:Shadowrun Anyone by Hydian · 2012-10-04 01:10 · Score: 1

December 21st my friend.

Brasyl made real by dZap · 2012-10-03 17:22 · Score: 1

Sao Paulo 2032: 2 billion arfids - radio frequency identity chips - seeded through cars, clothes, consumer electronics, cash, and cards of the City of Saint Paul's 22 million inhabitants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasyl

Much safer by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 17:56 · Score: 0

Brazilian government is implementing for years now a much more effective way to prevent thieves to run away with your car: Potholes.

Sounds good to me by SuperKendall · 2012-10-03 18:25 · Score: 1

Unstoppable and with an insatiable appetite for new technology

Very handy for those of us technical in nature, since we can always choose to circumvent the technology...

The day that all speeding tickets are issued by reading your car chip is the day I get to drive 120MPH wherever I go.

Sure life sucks for the non-technical but then they were the ones that accepted it all.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:Sounds good to me by cayenne8 · 2012-10-04 02:06 · Score: 1

The day that all speeding tickets are issued by reading your car chip is the day I get to drive 120MPH wherever I go.
Sure life sucks for the non-technical but then they were the ones that accepted it all.
Oh...I sure wish I had mod points!!!
:)

--
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Re:Sounds good to me by Tough+Love · 2012-10-07 13:28 · Score: 1

The day that all speeding tickets are issued by reading your car chip is the day I get to drive 120MPH wherever I go. Sure life sucks for the non-technical...
Oh...I sure wish I had mod points!!!
Right, so you could mod that "-1, Jailtime"

--
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.

Hard for thieves to run away... ha. by dmvianna · 2012-10-03 18:34 · Score: 1

License plates are supposed to make it hard for thieves to run away with a stole car too. And yet in Brazil it is common for cars to have fake license plates. The police is unable (or unwilling) to detect these. So:

* How would they detect a car that *does not show on the radar* because it does not have the tracking chip;
* And if a car is stolen, disabling the tracking chip is bound to be easier than filing out the serial number, which is common practice.

I'm sure tracking taxpayers will create a new source of tax revenue for the government, beyond the already huge load of tax on cars (60% of the selling price in Brazil). I'm unconviced, though, that the government is concerned with thieves or tax evaders. These are not sources of tax revenue.

Re:Hard for thieves to run away... ha. by BasilBrush · 2012-10-04 00:40 · Score: 1

* And if a car is stolen, disabling the tracking chip is bound to be easier than filing out the serial number, which is common practice.

Tracker is a system that's been in use in the UK for years. Car owners choose to install them, and they are used when/if the car is stolen.
The reason car thieves don't tend to remove them is that the box is installed in a random hard to get at location in each car. It'd be a major undertaking to dismantle every part of the car where a tracker might be concealed.
The most common exploit seems to be to drive the stolen car into a shipping container, which prevents tracking. The car is then shipped to a foreign country that doesn't have tracker.
http://www.tracker.co.uk/

Immense riches! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-03 19:11 · Score: 0

To the guy who hacks into and dumps this database first...

Just image it! The extortion money you could drive from anyone who don't want their mistresses exposed (And now we are just being nice, really)

Brazil movie by Herve5 · 2012-10-03 21:27 · Score: 1

you were faster than me :-D
I was about to post "ha, now this is why the movie was given this name!"
please mod parent up ;-)

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Herve S.

Top down vs Bottom up crime prevention by sirlark · 2012-10-03 22:50 · Score: 2

A lot depends on what one views as an effective long term crime prevention strategy.

First there's the top down approach. Assuming that the majority of the worst criminal activity is perpetrated by experieced life long criminals (think ring leaders, organised crime, career criminals etc) then it stands to reason you want to target those individuals for arrest and incarceration. Yes, there are outliers; nutjobs going on shooting sprees, crimes of passion, serial killers, and the odd person who comes up with a scam that works, etc. The problem is, removing the head does't always help. Someone else might step up, or removing the head might cause more chaos, criminal organisation to split into competing units, etc.

Then there's the bottom up apporach, which is focusing on 'small' crimes according to the theory this increases the preception of the risk of being caught, thus ultimately preventing crimes from being commited, as opposed to catching criminals after the act. Of course there are always going to be those people who are going to ignore the preceived risk, or even see past the charade. And this approach doesn't address organised crime and/or career criminals very well.

As far as mandatory tagging of vehicles is concerned, this very much fits in with the bottom up approach. It's not intended to make it harder for (semi-)professional car thieves to work. But it will increase the barrier of entry into the car thief profession, assuming it takes some skill and practice to get around the tagging system. And of course assuming that dumb-user devices that do the job for you don't become readily available, a la backdoor software packages for script kiddies. In general the bottom up approach also has the long term effect of reducing the size of the criminal labour pool, over a period of decades.

That said, bottom up approaches tend to affect law abiding citizens disproportionately when tecnology comes into play. Having a police force focus on jay-walking, drunk and disorderly, and disturbing the peace charges is different from implementing a system monitors widely and throughly. The first still works on the presumption of innocence; you have to commit the offence before the cop targets you. The second means information is collected prior the any crime being commited, the exact opposite: "We're collecting eveidence against you in case you commit a crime"

Benjamin Franklin said it best: Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Wolverines! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 00:33 · Score: 0

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNMYGwQtmzr9Q3QZscvGOMkZpMmxKmDfHYgtyt04TpRUz1VNqv.jpg

These boots were made for walkin' by halfkoreanamerican · 2012-10-04 00:36 · Score: 1

Sounds like a lot of not so awesome things with a few good things. We can ticket you easier, know where you are at any time, AND we can occasionally improve traffic patterns as a result.

To all conspiracy freaks by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 01:49 · Score: 0

You are all assuming that cars are the only means of moving around. And you are all assuming that cars are here to stay forever, like it's the only solution there can ever be for personal transportation. Tags in cars are a logical solution.

Also you let your stupid cars in the streets hoping no one would do anything with it? Do you leave your clothes on the streets? Or even your cellphone? Like the city has the obligation to take care of your freaking property out there?

You dump a 19th century technology on the streets, you take the risk. If you want the city to take care of it, stop complaining and add the freaking tag.

I'm a brazillian and I hate cars.

Not a theft deterrent by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 02:08 · Score: 0

Thieves will simply disable the radio. Poof.. there goes the theft deterrent.

If I can avoid toll roads by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 03:04 · Score: 0

If I can avoid toll roads then automatic tolls are OK.

However, often you will find yourself on a stretch of road whose only exit now is on the other side of a toll road and no way of returning. That has to be fixed.

Next year's news cast... by Kaptain+Kruton · 2012-10-04 03:20 · Score: 1

On an unrelated note, bicycle sales have recently skyrocketed in Brazil

Unlikely to be implemented by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-04 04:03 · Score: 0

Argentina also has these fits of government control, but neither country cares about these measures enough to actually implement them.

No Possibility of Success for Brazil by kawabago · 2012-10-04 05:01 · Score: 1

There is no possibility that anyone could get a system this comprehensive installed and functioning all over one of the largest countries in the world. They would do just as well to set a date upon which all lead in the country will turn into gold, it stands a better chance of succeeding!

We are the big brother society by manaway · 2012-10-04 06:43 · Score: 1

Richard Feynman was asked about the morality of the atomic bomb he helped create. He replied "I just didn't THINK about it," giving the impression of a scientist absorbed with science in the moment, and oblivious to morality and consequences. Until later. Here we info tech folk are thinking about the morality beforehand, and still doing it. Looks like it takes more than thinking, it takes doing; and frequently, not doing.

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Starting Next Year, Brazil Wants To Track All Cars Electronically

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