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Shake-up at Apple: Forstall Out; iOS Executive Fired For Maps Debacle?
New submitter noh8rz10 writes "Apple's Scott Forstall, who grew iOS from its inception, is departing the company. Rumors say it's because of the Maps debacle, and problems with Siri as well. Jony Ive is taking a larger human interface role, which means he may kill the skeuomorphic interfaces he hates. John Browett, head of retail, is out as well; he never won the trust of the community. What does such a major shakeup say about Tim Cook's leadership?"
The rats are being thrown off the sinking ship.
This is not a signature.
he sucks at leadership?
i don't even know how to interpret that.
Apple and the trust of the community?
Apple, so far as I have seen, is either loved unconditionally, or disliked for various reasons.
Was there a part of "the community" that was waiting to be won over? Community CUPS devs?
Hey, quit saying "skeuomorphic" in there!
Hopefully, we'll get better UI designs
Forestall does pretty good work, but he's always been too proud to listen when someone else has a better idea. He shouldn't be working on products that are used by hundreds of millions of people all around the world.
The thought of him working directly under Tim Cook, who doesn't know much about product design, has always made me uncomfortable.
Hooray for Ive, he's possibly the best engineer I have ever heard of, except for maybe Wozniak. This is a good day for Apple.
It seems more and more each day that he really was the glue that held the vision together.
700 was the top. The company is falling apart.
[Apple] Steve's gone. Let's turn the page. We'll stop being dicks, no more lawsuits.
[Google] Sounds good. We'll give you maps with turn-by-turn navigation.
What does such a major shakeup say about Tim Cook's leadership?
He is going to lead and hold people accountable?
For example, the way the OS X Address Book attempts to resemble
a paper address book. This is pointless and stupid and the only
people it could possibly appeal to are idiots who probably don't
use a computer for anything more than surfing the web anyway.
This is the kind of crap that insults me when I see it on a computer I
paid a lot of money to buy.
If Ive gets rid of this crap, he will have my everlasting appreciation.
Also, and MUCH more important : Apple MUST quit trying to blend the
interface used by OS X with the interface used by iOS. The result of
such attempts at blending is stuff that is annoying and awful to use and
it is an insult to a user who has a modicum of intelligence. QUIT THIS
SHIT, Tim Cook, or your legacy will be that of the guy who fucked up
a good thing, and that is not a legacy anyone with honor wants.
...that Tim Cook has firmly taken the reins and is going to start running Apple the way he sees fit, with his team - not the team that was there when he took over.
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
He's the one who designed all their successful products, after all.
I'd say that Tim Cook's leadership still has 11 years to get worse.
Scott Forstall thought he was Steve Jobs, but he clearly was not. Slimy egomaniac. (OK, Steve Jobs was an egomaniac. Just not a slimy one.)
After reading that, I realized that this was indeed true and in fact there has been an alternate philosphy besides the skeuomorphic design which is the "war on color" in some aspects of OS X (e.g., the flat gray scroll bars, the gray linen background for the virtual desktop manager, even the world map for changing the time zone). So, now I'm wondering if the skeuomorphic faction led by Forstall has lost the debate, was Ive and the other minimalist design people behind the "war on color" and if that's true, is that what we'll see in future versions of the OS with Ive leading the interface design? I'm not sure how I feel about that, I really don't like using an OS that is drab and boring, it's depressing (I actually liked Aqua for the most part, which was also Forstall's invention I guess). Either way, it's good to know that Apple isn't afraid of rocking the boat still. That skeuomorphic crap might have been good for increasing everyone's vocabulary with regards to interface design, but it was annoying as hell to use.
Now, if only Apple would admit they screwed up the document versioning system beyond repair and give us a proper "Save As..." since the dawn of the computer (or thereabouts) I would consider Apple as having fully realized the error of their ways and moving decidedly in a less terrible direction. But alas, Federhigi is still in charge and they haven't brought Serlet back from retirement unfortunately.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
Look, it's bad when people on TV use Siri and iMaps as a joke for a bunch of different shows. I've seen it on commericals, sitcoms, and of course stand up comedy.
Granted it's more Siri related, but the iMaps get said a bit also.
Siri i can understand not working, we are talking speech recognition, but a map program? That is seriously bad.
Lets see how they fix it though.
Be seeing you...
It's well known that Scott Forstall didn't get along with the others. He's been called a "mini-Steve (Jobs)" and described as "maddeningly political":
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/scott-forstall-the-sorcerers-apprentice-at-apple-10122011.html
If he was ousted, it's probably due more to the others thinking he's an asshole. The Maps debacle provides a convenient excuse, but I doubt it's the real reason behind this. This is just another political backstabbing, that's all.
If you check SEC company executive stock records, one can find that Scott Forstall has sold off his Apple Stock options earlier this year, in preparation for a possible departure. His departure has actually been planned for several weeks, but was not announced until today along with the departure of John Browett, who was Sr. VP for Retails operations for Apple.
The current executive reorganization of Mr. Forstall's duties have been spread over several senior Apple executives, distributing responsibilities according to their current function. Read the press release to see the respective changes.
Some people have speculated that Scott Forstall might be the ultimate successor to Steve Jobs, since he came with Steve from NeXT computer back to Apple in 1997. He has been involved in the development of Mac OS X, including heading the Leopard OS development and development of the Aqua user interface in OS X, along with leading the development of iPhone and later iOS system software since 2004.
I don't know what Scott Forstall plans to do, but there is some speculation that he might be involved a project with a former Apple engineer. Needless to say, he probably has a non-compete clause with Apple, he will have respect for a while given his critical involvement with key Apple products like the iPhone, iPad and iOS system software.
I would not be surprised to see Scott come back to Apple sometime in the future, but he has earned a well-earned sabbatical given his recent efforts.
Scott has been messing up. The interface designs are getting out of control on iOS and OS X, and hopefully Ive will fix that. Maps and Siri still don't work as advertised (though they are getting better all the time). I don't think Scott will be missed. It makes a LOT of sense to reorganize how they did, though Mansfeld though should have retired......
The other guy, good riddance. His managing of the Apple Stores is questionable to say the least.
It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
--
From Wikipedia: "[Interfaces that emulate] objects in the physical world."
Don't lie and say you knew what that meant. You didn't...
Apple has already produced it's best ever products and it is on the way down now. Nothing new or exciting will come out of Apple in future.
I don't think apple, just like most big business, ever really recognized actual work. Steve Wozniak never got the recognition he deserved back in the 80s so I doubt Jony Ive will get his. As long as Tim Cook manages to put up a show and keep numbers like 5 million iPhones pre-orders, he will be the boss. By the way, some current bad choices, such as Siri current low capabilities and the use of skeuomorphic interfaces, were made when Jobs was still alive.
Here we go. I saw something like this coming from Apple. Steve was the glue that held the helm. No doubt Apple's market experience has been tough with all the battles going on, but the color of Apple is changing. Expect more I'm affraid... For the record, I'm just an Oracle. I know nothing...
That there's no way they will do a smaller iPad... Tim Cook says... "Yes, we can!"
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Can we have NewtonOS back now please?
But is he a leader? He is in essence Apple’s blacksmith, the blacksmith of all time.
I heard it was because of a conflict with Bob Mansfield. Looks like after the Maps debacle, Forstall's asshole attitude didn't last.
Notice Bob Mansfield came straight out of retirement and got new responsibilities out of this little incident.
It's funny most slashdotters are saying "oh look, this must be bad for apple" and most of the apple websites are saying "good riddance"
I would imagine the gesture only required one finger to execute. ;)
Forstall sounds like he was kind of a cancer and his excess skeumorphism ruptured an otherwise seamless aesthetic that is a big part of why a lot of people but Apple products. Browett had a bad record and was never a good fit for Apple IMO and his idiocy with trying to draw down clerk hours to save a few bucks demonstrates a cultural disjoint between him and Apple's obsession with customer experience. If your customers don't feel special they will not pay premium margins. A discount retail approach would convert their hugely powerful retail outlets into cost centers.
The Maps issues aren't related to anything but the quality of data as far as I'm aware. I have no idea if that's his fault, or if it was his fault to put Maps on prematurely, but strategically I think Apple had to divest Google from their platform there at some point.
(%i1) factor(777353);
(%o1) 777353
These people were able to rise above old Steve Wonder Jobs' "There them a new one" daily attitude, and he knew enough not to piss them off enough to watch them depart. Whatever they brought to the job, Jobs wanted. Tim Cook is cheerful enough to start tossing people under the bus/over the edge. "We have enough money, we don't need to put up with these people anymore." So some people go, and they try to hire people to replace them. We don't need any more of those geeky engineer types, we could use more sales people. Hello Apple. You are on the same track as HP, Sun, Apollo, etc. You have millions, and you are circling the drain.
As soon as I heard this I was happy. I am a computer user. I don't gaze at my computer fondly and I don't use it to access content and I could give a rat's ass if it looks like some 1920s calendar (unless there's a Vargas girl on the front!). I want the computer to help me do my job and otherwise get the (expletive deleted) out of the way. I am hoping this will mean some time and effort spent on fixing some of the oddball things that haven't worked right in OS X for far too long. Let the Content Eaters get their rocks off on their iPads and iPhones, but a desktop machine is made for heavy-duty work, be it graphics design or down-to-the-metal coding. I don't want pretty and I don't want cute - I want works and doesn't need constant maintenance (which is why I'm off the Linux desktop). I'm probably reading in to this more than I should, but I hope at least some of what I'm reading is right.
Tim Cook has all the qualities of a man who could survive in a company led by Steve Jobs. These qualities are not necessarily the same qualities needed to run a company after Steve Jobs.
Hopfully Apple follows after job's death and some new blood takes its place. Maybe something a little less hostile to freedom. Like the CEO of ThinkPenguin!!!
and the Apple ecosystem (for the last three years) and that has worried about Apple without Jobs (and even more after the maps fiasco), this reassures me. Love the move, and just saw Tim Cook climb on my respect ladder.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Most of the world is not going to care about this complete non-issue. I'm sure most /. readers wouldn't even know about it if Soulskill didn't keep bringing it up every few months. I have been hearing claims that GUIs are going to escape from the bonds of skeuomorphic design as people become more tech-savvy, but somehow we have to continue to tolerate the whining. Apple has always tried to appeal to the fountain-pen-never-used-on-the-desk market and has embraced that asthetic in its GUI decorations. If anything, this is an asthetic which is seeing a resurgence with the rise of 'hipsters' who want to make digital pictures look like 70s era polaroids. Non-skeuomorphic designs are available to replace pretty much everything on any of these devices, so if you want it so bad, go get it and incentivise people to cater to your whims, but please stop cluttering /. with this long, pretentious word.
I have no idea what you think they should get for "recognition" that they already haven't gotten. Ive has been knighted, given wheelbarrows full of awards, and will retire a very, very wealthy man. Wozniak -- I think he got all the recognition he wanted. He was a big player back when floppy disk drives were a new technology, and is (so I hear) still on good terms with the executives at Apple. But he left almost 30 years ago.
If I were Ive I wouldn't budge from my position. He's basically in the heart of Willy Wonka's chocolate factory, with any toy, process, tool, material, and workforce he needs to get something done, and essentially no responsibility for some of the more tedious parts of running the business. And now he's got the software side of things, so hopefully we see the end of some of the more...creative...apps and back to something that's more functional.
Apple needs to stop the thin on the desktop
Come on one of the new imacs systems does not even have user ram door?? and 5400 RPM HD's? with no cd / dvd??? I can see it on the mini but the imac AKA something that apple is pushing for PRO use does not have one?
And the mac pro is very out of date but at least do a price cut or some out with a desktop with a desktop cpu / desktop video card (yes the adobe apps do use video cards) / and more then 1 HDD slot. External enclosures are a mess and take up a lot of desk space.
As Steve Jobs said software is the soul of the products.
And this is problem with putting business people in charge of tech companies. Or putting a generic CEO in charge of a car company. If any company should have learned how devastating a non-technologist like John Sculley is: he nearly destroyed Apple. You've got to love what you do.
Instead the new CEO throws down a useless gauntlet to sign apologies instead of taking the blame himself. Coward.
I'm sure Tim Cook could have coded the iPhone OS and the MAP app himself before his morning work-out. HA!
We NEED to support people who think different! Rather than throw them under the bus.
WWJD
What Would Jobs Do
I gotta admit, this is somewhat interesting.
Remember the original iMac and Mac OS X 10.1? The original iMac had these lines in the plastic. Mac OS X 10.1 also had these lines. As Apple hardware went more metalic, so did the interface.
I wonder if we'll see more of that "integrated whole" type of thing.
I know I really shouldn't complain about this, but my flippant little remark here isn't worthy of the highest moderation available on slashdot. I was simply expressing my frustration that this man hasn't been in charge of software up until this point. Apple's software may be on par with the best available software, but it's not up to their hardware standards. Not by a long shot. Which is especially confusing because it's a one time cost, while more expensive hardware adds to the cost of every unit sold.
Yep. Who wants to carry a GPS around? There's a lame one with a lousy touch-screen interface in my car, but my phone's is better, even witht the mistakes that apple maps has. In fact, they've got the Radisson correctly placed in La Jolla, while Google maps had it screwed up (and one street / half-mile away) for years. So I'm actually not forgiving of Apple for screwing up their map transition; I want everything with me all at once. And working. And Apple is screwing up their once-held reputation of "it just works."
Institutional memory and big bold huge egos on both sides (of the table / of El Camino Real / or both sides of the 101, goog east at mountainview, appl west at cupertino) mean that those scenarious would never occur. Why would either side stop thinking of the other as an enemy? (enemy = competitor in the business world)
Not in the "doomed" sense, but in the code complete sense. A guy driven to innovate that isn't going to be happy maintaining it. You need a whole other KIND of guy for that. If you can't give that guy a new mountain to climb he will wander off in search of it himself.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
We shall have to see this holiday season if their legendary supply chain can keep up with the legendary bottomless demand. Apple makes good margins against apparently unlimited demand, so the only question is their production capacity.
Losing Samsung as a component supplier may crimp their style. Samsung doesn't have that problem because not only do they make their own stuff, they invent it too. And now Samsung makes the Nexus 10.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Obligatory 'toon
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
1. that some people go so deep with the skeuomorphic concept as to almost make the UI like a mechanical device, comprising all the complexity a real apparatus would truly have and
2. the knee jerk reaction of some others saying they hate skeuomorphic when this is really not possible: skeumorphic is our middle name, from the spoons which mimic our hands to the bowls which follow natural vases (like cocoa and calabash).
IMHO, being human is being tied to skeuomorphism, and attempts to eliminate it are at best exercises on futility.
That said, I agree too much sugar on my coffee makes it unbearable -- as is the case with bitter sugarless coffee.
It's been clear that the Era of Tim is one where Litigation trumps Innovation. Apple is rapidly devolving into the world's biggest patent troll and therefore no longer has to design, create, make or sell anything.
You are absolutely right that their core apps are factions to the overall aesthetic of OS X. In Lion, iCal and Address Book are a good examples.
But I still don't understand how that is an argument against skeuomorphic design. Your usage and interpretation of skeuomorphic design, as well as a few past Apple implementations of, is far too general, all encompassing, and well... skewed. I would dare to argue that we need more Skeuomorphic design in the process. We need more to find balance; to find balance between natural elements and a gui interface; else we'd all prefer a command line or dare suffer the seven steps Windows subjects us to complete a basic task.
Skeuomorphic design also applies to user experience, the steps taken to complete a task, and is *not* limited to whether your calendar looks like the one hanging on your wall, dog-earred and all.
Skeuomorphic design is necessary but it must be balanced, and only hinted at.
tl;dr: It's bad to polarize the conversation as skeuomorphic design vs. x-design. Sometimes it has value, other times it doesn't. Regardless, skeuomorphic design doesn't mean it has to be a direct or exact interpretation of another material. Say, a UX design that takes principles of fluidity/water is a skeuomorphic design even if there isn't a giant bitmap of animated bubbles.
What does it say about Time Cook's leadership? Easy. He's not Steve Jobs. Lacking a strong central leader and a clear direction, machiavellian infighting is tearing the company apart from the inside. Tim Cook has a hell of a job to do to keep talented people on board.
Color is fine in a UI as long as it means something. If it's just decoration that creates cognitive load with no user benefit.
I know, right -- so how soon can we get rid of that annoying red on stop signs and that yellow on yield signs? The sign shapes and lettering already tell me everything I need to know, the redundant color creates extra cognitive load which reduces driver safety!
Where is this (%i1) prompt from?
I usually factor from the *nix command line.
factor 966971: 966971
Common mistake of people who know nothing about leadership and management.
Ive may be a fantastic lead designer. That doesn't mean he would be a good CEO. Or even a mediocre one. Don't promote people because they are excellent at their current jobs - only promote people if you think they will be excellent at their new job.
We would have a lot less incompetent fucks in middle-management if that principle were followed more often.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
That a big chunk of the "cool" (which was a very big chunk of Apple's allure) went away with Jobs. While he was still a part of the company, it still had (deserved or not) at least some street cred as an innovator competing against "the man". Those days are long gone, Apple has lost what little vision it still had, and now it's rearranging the deck chairs. Oh, and suing competitors who come up with better stuff.
"Shanghai Shunky"
"We provide our customers complete crushing plant!"
I want this on a Tee Shirt.
It might be very easy to use but even idiot users are smarter than the OS, that's why even your regular 'dummies' are using Android phones now.
Any old regular manager can operate a blackberry, sure it might take 2 days to get used to, instead of 2 hours but it's not much for such a powerful device. So to make it clear, beat with me here. Proper run of the mill, non technical people can completely operate a device with a trackball / select button, back button, submenu (right click / context) button, home (end) button and a green dial button.
The classic 9000 series is a 5 button device yet in thousands of hours of support, usability is exceedingly rarely an issue after a day or two
Then you pick up an iphone - you go into an app and want a context menu to come up, so you can choose for example to correct spelling, or choose a contact to email to, or switch an address book, perhaps paste - but no, Apples method is to hide /somewhere/ on the screen - in a NON.CONSISTENT.LOCATION the menu button. Android* and blackberry have this in a consistent location and frankly - for more than just basic tasks, it makes for a more consistent experience when trying to do more advanced functionality.
So yes, Apple wins in simple, open app, go home, open new app, but more than that and it starts becoming tricky. Menus and settings being wherever the dev wants, instead of under consistent buttons, is illogical - no matter how apple slice it.
That's just the beginning of the shortcomings of the OS which has completely stagnated for the last 2 years, I heard they finally copied Android with a drop down notification menu - mind you if you want to quickly access brightness, wifi, gps, 3G (4G) data, bluetooth options, you still need to go 7 pages deep into the bloody settings instead of the lovely and simple power bar in Android. - sorry but it's just more logical and more convienient.
ios will continue to be popular, of course - but when I'm starting to see retirees tapping away on a Galaxy S3 or Galaxy Nexus on public transport, plus a heap of young people, male and female using Android - well, having an iphone is simply not cool anymore.
If I owned AAPL I'd seriously consider selling - once at the top, where else can you go? Especially with this stagnation.
* NOTE: Google have ditched the dedicated menu button to a /roaming location/ settings button like Apple and instead focused on a dedicated app switch / multitask button (I NEVER use this!) I have absoloutely no idea why they think this frankly, stupid idea is good - but as part of the point of my post, users can still quite easily navigate Android with dedicated back, home, multi-task buttons at least as well as the quickpower bar menu for quick access to turning things on and off.
(NOTE NOTE: Don't send me links why the dedicated task switcher is good, it's not - it's a fucking idiotic change, sorry)
psychopath in popular parlance simply means "somebody I hate"
So I agree, otherwise you would have to actualy know what a psychopath is actual.
Why do 100% of all people need to care about the freedom to tinker for it to be a valuable freedom? Very few people ever decide to tinker with cars, *but some do*, and they grow up to be auto mechanics and I'm glad to know them. The problem with argument is very simple, you are jumping from "most people don't care" to "no-one should care" - because that's the only option Apple gives you. That 1% that *does* care matters very much. Steve Jobs himself was one of those 1% once upon a time, if you don't recall. I'm guessing by the naivete of your ideas that you don't.
The long term moving average of stock prices follows profits pure and simple. Shorter term emotions like optimism and pessimism can accelerate or retard stock prices. A 14 month run up is being brought back to earth.
Stock prices are also predictive. The current price slowdown anticipates predicted revenue slowdowns from falling international sales next year.
... and the sky is NOT blue, water is NOT wet, the bear does NOT poop in the woods, and the Pope does NOT pray. In other news ... juvenile ranting fanboys and haters invade /. and make intelligent conversation obsolete as they derail threads with innuendo, fantasy and opinion not backed up by facts or references.
Yes, because designing minimalist looking containers is such a great qualification for developing an operating system.
Well, I suppose for Apple it is.
That would work, but it runs into the class system at most companies, where it's a nearly iron-clad rule that your place on the org chart is a key determinant of your salary, not your skill. So companies stop giving salary increases to people really good at their jobs and instead require them to get promoted in order to earn more money.
You could have some employee X who is really good at their job, is highly knowledgeable, reliable, long term of service but "can't" pay that person more money because they would then be earning more than their manager.
So you end up with a system where people who are really good at their jobs are more or less forced to "go into management" to continue to get salary increases beyond the middling COLAs most companies offer.
IMHO, there's a lot of pretty ridiculous and toxic ideas tied up in this. It seems to imply that the workers, regardless of their talents, really aren't responsible for their work and that their boss is somehow responsible for everything. This of course trickles up which is why you have CEOs telling you how indispensable they are, as if one person was responsible for getting everything of value done at a multinational corporation.
I read somewhere (Job's biography?) that Forstall is a dick who could hold his own with Jobs in dickatude. Might have been more of a personality problem.
We love to build up and tear down. Not long ago the press is gushing over Apple. Talking about how their stock it going to $1000 a share. Now they are calling for people's heads. Sure, the Maps thing was a bit of a fiasco but it's not as if it doesn't work at all or the App crashes. From what I understand it's a few places that are not done well. The rest seems to work fine. Remember, Google's map app wasn't very good when it started either.
The problem was the way it was rolled out. It should have been presented as a Beta, not a ready-for-prime-time App. Cook had no choice, he had to do something to save face. I'm not sure how much, if any, blame he shares in this but clearly heads must roll and roll they did.
Apple has had a lot of hits and are under tremendous pressure to keep it up. Android has caught up on features, some might say they have surpassed the iPhone. What Apple still has going for it is a rabid fan base and a reputation for quality hardware. Another slip up could cost them dearly. Time will tell.
Apple going into the shitter!
Interesting development. As far as the whole skeuomorphism debate, I think it works on mobile devices, but doesn't work so good on mobile devices.
https://sites.google.com/site/minimalcarrot/
Apple is like that Springsteen song: I'm goin' down,down,down,down......
Besides the obvious (WP7 had like 2% of the market share, and I don't waste time on losers), the significant problem is yet another platform to grok. No thanks!
Android and iOS are almost inside out versions of each other, and require extreme cognitive gymnastics to switch back and forth. Android likes to do things the Java way, with spinning off threads or anonymous classes. iOS likes delegates, which are almost inside out opposite with iOS calling your delegates as callbacks.
My head is already exploding with iOS and Android. Microsoft, Blackberry, MeeGo (or whatever it is this month), etc will have to compete for neurological pathways with their SDKs, and I just don't have any left.
He's still on campus. They told him to leave but after 3 days he's still trying to navigate his way out.
Sorry, it was early in the morning. I missed the sarcasm and the "yeah like this would ever happen" point of your post. My sarcasto-detector needed a few more awake hours to get up to running speed. Mea culpa.
I don't think apple, just like most big business, ever really recognized actual work. Steve Wozniak never got the recognition he deserved back in the 80s
Er, what? What?!! Wozniak was a computer industry rockstar in the 1980s, especially to Apple II fans. The main reason he became less prominent at Apple after the early 80s was an unfortunate accident: he crashed his light airplane, suffered a traumatic brain injury, had to deal with significant memory loss, and essentially retired from engineering or any other day-to-day role at the company. That's why Woz had little to do with the creation of the Mac, for example.
Woz is still, to this very day, very well recognized. We're talking about a dude who has been on Dancing with the Stars as a star, for pete's sake. Burrell Smith (designer of the Mac's motherboard, comparable to what Woz did for Apple I/II), not so much. (Bet you never heard of him before, eh?)