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Israel's Iron Dome Missile Defense Shield Actually Works
Hugh Pickens writes "Sarah Tory reports that the debut of Israel's Iron Dome missile defense shield has added a new element to the conflict between Israel and Palestinians in the Gaza strip, one that military officials are calling a 'game-changer.' Israeli officials are claiming that the shield is destroying 90 percent of missiles and rockets it aims at that have been fired into southern Israel by Hamas. This level of success is unprecedented compared with older missile defense systems such as the American-made Patriot model used during the 1991 Gulf War. The missile-defense system can detect rocket launches and then determine the projectiles' flight paths and only intercepts rocket or artillery shells if they are headed for populated areas or sensitive targets; the others it allows to land. It takes a lot of raw computing power to rapidly build a ballistic profile of a fast-incoming projectile, make a series of quick decisions concerning potential lethality, and launch a countermeasure capable of intercepting said projectile in-flight. One reason Iron Dome is showing a much more robust capability than the Patriot system did is simply that its battle control hardware and software are several generations more advanced than those early interceptor systems. 'Israeli officials point out that Iron Dome saves money despite the fact that the interceptors cost up to $100,000 each,' writes Tory. 'The cost of rebuilding a neighborhood destroyed by a rocket attack — not to mention people wounded and lives lost — would be far greater than the cost of the interceptor.' Most important, the system buys Israel time, allowing it to plan out an appropriate response without the political pressure that would be generated by hundreds of potential deaths."
How sure is that 90% hit rate? I wonder what it is about the other 10% that lets them through?
Does it really take so much computing power to calculate trajectory of a falling object? I know there's a lot of uncertainty coming from measurements but I don't really think you need anything more than an equivalent of pentium 100 to effectively decide wheter the missile is heading toward a populated area or not.
Anyone else thinking they should deploy it on the Gaza side too? Not instead (I know people will misread me). As well.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/20/opinion/hamass-illegitimacy.html
You mean that SDI might work after all?
That will get us out of the nuclear age. A stop rate of 90% eliminates a first strike advantage.
But what's going to replace mutually assured destruction (MAD) when the destruction isn't assuredly mutual?
These missile shields could bring us closer to nuclear war, or end it forever when the party with the shield tells everyone else to drop their nukes or vanish in sparkly glowing fireballs.
The assault on the Gaza concentration camp is MURDER.
I'm not saying Israel's defenses don't work (I've no reason to think that) but given the timing do you think we'd be told
a) If the defenses didn't work well at all
or
b) About all the instances the defenses failed to work?
Given the circumstances what we hear *especially* from official sources on either side of this conflict should be taken with quite a grain of salt.
So the Palestinians launch missiles at Isreal and you are upset that Isreal is pissed off about it and launches counter attacks? If Canada started launching rockets at the US, I would expect us to invade and conquer them in short order. I'm surprised that Palestine has been allowed to exist as long as it has.
When I was in Iraq at Balad AB they had a couple of CIWS operating on land to intercept rockets and mortars if they were heading towards developed areas on the base. In a twist there was also a few artillery tubes that could out several hundred pounds of HX on the launch point within about 20 seconds... but AFAIK they never used the counter fire capability (at least they didn't while I was there). The guys working on that stuff said the computing power wasn't all that impressive in the Mk-15 system.
If they hadn't assassinated the head of the military wing of Hammas they wouldn't be facing this bombardment from Gaza. Ok he was probably behind a lot of the lower key attacks that have been going on recently, but it still might have worked out cheaper/better in the long run.
maybe a lot less or no missiles were fired, maybe the Iron Dome stats are twisted, an excuse to justify the cause.
with some sort of ground effort? Or at least attempt to disrupt the RADAR or missile sites. The other alternative is to get more explosives into Israeli controlled areas to employ as IED and such, though much of that society is trained to spot things that should not be. Will a rash of homicide bombers be unleashed?
Eventually they energy weapons might replace the missiles and provide even better coverage, but it might lead to an escalation that is harder to contain, by which I mean the other guys might employ chemical or biological weapons which cannot be intercepted.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Yes, both parties are at fault for continuing this ridiculous feud. But is America blockading and occupying Canadian land to begin with? No.
And yes, I'm surprised that Palestine has been allowed to exist as long as it has considering the United States really doesn't give a damn about the fact that Israel continues to bulldoze their homes down for their own settlements.
Let's make it clear, I condone the actions of Hamas but Israel's actions are very heavy-handed in proportion to Hamas' attacks/
You seem to have left out the US and Israel funding Fatah to wage a proxy war against Hamas (democratically elected, by the corrupt system that the US and Israel pushed), the IDF killed a thirteen year old boy last month, then a twenty-three year old mentally disabled man who walked too near Gaza. Then, when the PFLP wounded four in a rocket launch near the border, Israel ASSASSINATED one of the leaders of Hamas and the strip.
Just thought you could use that background info.
I wonder what it is about the other 10% that lets them through?
How far do you manage to get in Missile Command? Do you 100% every level up to the 810,000 point, or do you rely on bonus cities?
Wow...you should REALLY read even a tiny bit of Middle Eastern history before making comments like that...also, rely on at least one non-US feed for your news...you do yourself a disservice otherwise.
No, probably not.Currently In all "87 Palestinians, including 50 civilians, have been killed in the six-day onslaught and 720 have been wounded" according to AP
Yet launching rockets at cities isn't? Iranian leadership should be tried for crimes against humanity. Iran can, most certainly, afford guidance systems in those rockets. an Ipad has enough sensors and processing power to be able to guide it at legitimate targets, and 20 dollars in servos to move guidance vanes would allow them to stop lobbing them at civilians. Oh wait...
So the Palestinians launch missiles at Isreal and you are upset that Isreal is pissed off about it and launches counter attacks? If Canada started launching rockets at the US, I would expect us to invade and conquer them in short order.
Well, if the US sent their military into Vancouver for "security" reasons, throwing out all the Canadians who lived there and allowed US citizens to build homes and "settle" the area and considering the US's superior military, I wouldn't blame Canada in the least for shooting rockets over the border.
I'm surprised that Palestine has been allowed to exist as long as it has.
You are either an excellent and crafty anti-Israel troll or an incredibly ill-informed person.
Best missile defense shield : peace treaty.
This isn't the first time they've been used, they were talking about how well the Iron Dome system worked way back in April. If the failure rate was higher, as you claim, there'd be a lot more Israeli deaths. If it didn't work they wouldn't have rushed the latest battery into operation.
Let's make it clear, I condone the actions of Hamas but Israel's actions are very heavy-handed in proportion to Hamas' attacks/
Paging Dr. Freud?
Seems to me turning Gaza into a parkling lot would be the cheapest approach in the long term.
Reading the comments, it seems I'm the only one here who thinks this is awesome. When it comes to weapons development, this is exactly the sort of weapon we should be cheering for. Whether you agree with the ones using it or not, this is a wonderful thing. A weapon which only works as a shield to block incoming attacks; that is what the weapons used by enlightened countries should have evolved into.
A better example would be if American Indians, subjugated and embargoed on their reservation, started rocket attacks on the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_Rocket,_Artillery,_and_Mortar
in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4gYLq84yr8&feature=player_detailpage
The Palestinians? What, all of them? Even the children? I'm fairly sure it's only Hamas who've been launching the missiles, but hey, why not just fire indiscriminately into a heavily populated city anyway in retaliation? Sure you'll kill a large number of civilians and children, but hey they're just Palestinians so who cares?
Israel has also been brazen in it's attacks against politicians and journalists. I'm surprised they haven't levelled a few hospitals for good measure.
One other large difference that the summary glosses over is that there's a big difference between the Katyusha and improvised rockets of Hamas, and the much larger Scud missile used by Iraq. There's almost an order of magnitude difference in size and range, and a several-fold difference in speed.
There's a correspondingly large difference between the Tamir interceptor missiles used as part of the Iron Dome and the Patriot missile.
Still, on the whole, it's probably a good thing that we are getting better at setting our lethal weapons against each other, rather than at people.
There was a huge problem with the Patriot system early on where the tracking computers lost so much accuracy even after only running continuously for 8 hours that the system would fail to intercept threats. The short term solution was to reboot the system at regular intervals.
GAO Report: Patriot Missile Defense (Official report)
Patriot Missile Software Problem
Round off errors and the Patriot missile
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
The 10% of missiles that are not intercepted have gone on to, you know, actually hit stuff. People have been killed, houses have been destroyed, schools, buses and cars have all had their share. So yeah, I think Israel still has the right to retaliate.
Oh well, they're just brown people anyway.
If you would strip an Isreali and a Palestinian naked and put them side by side, you wouldn't be able to tell which is which. (Except for the hairdo if it's a conservative jew, of course). This has nothing to do with race, just cultural background and history.
Too bad these "innocent civilians" are in 100% support of the missile launchers parked next to their house. Human shields are great for media sympathy when they actually get blown up.
I just don't get it. Is Israel suppose to just sit back and watch while the Palestinians lob hundreds of missiles at them? What is your solution? Because I personally see no other alternative.
For being a 'tech' site, this sure seems to be full of bigots. This article is about a weapon which acts as a shield, yet everyone posts hatefully about those using it. If Israel were the 'bad guys' in this fight, how come Hamas is still there? If Hamas had sufficient firepower, Israel would be obliterated. Israel *has* sufficient firepower to obliterate Hamas, but instead they only strike back when struck (and don't forget; by 'struck', I mean people have been murdered).
Stop hating and just appreciate tech talked about in the article.
how do you think Canada would feel about the US blockading them in a modern day version of apartheid, trying to take them back to the stone age?
i get so pissed when people just think about it from only one side. there are two sides to this story, and right now, people on both sides are suffering (and suffering a lot more on the Palestinian side). See these numbers from the economist
It's amazing, Israel has the wealth, the brains, and the resources to protect and defend its people with systems like this.
Meanwhile, the Palestinians have nothing, but to blindly lob rockets into a sovereign country.
This clearly illustrates to the world who is the civilized one, and who the savages are.
It is clear that there is one cause of this; Islam. The linked article gets it when it says:
The New York Times has figured out that Hamas has been “[e]mboldened by the rising power of Islamists around the region” and is making use of its “increased clout” with the Muslim Brotherhood government in Egypt. Yes — news flash! — the Arab Spring is a disaster for Israel and for the cause of peace in the region.
Of course I was being modded down on Slashdot for pointing out that the "Arab Spring" would lead to a worse situation than the dictatorships it replaced as it was happening and our foolish governments were supporting it.
The Iron Dome was developed by Israeli engineers, so, sorry but the brains were not American in this case.
I'm surprised Palestine has survived as long as it has. Bit by bit, Palestinians are being forced from their homes as Israel expands its lebensraum.
The Palestinians are defending themselves against an invading army. What would you do if the Canadians surrounded your town, marched you out of your home at gunpoint, bulldozed it flat, and told you to get the hell out of Canada?
The real aim of Iron Dome is to be able to intercept Iranian missiles. Could this really be nothing more than a cynical operational systems test ahead of some Israeli adventurist stupidity elsewhere? The murder of Gazans being simply an Israeli pantomime to provoke enough rockets to make sufficient live targets for a meaningful operational test. After all, the rockets themselves cause little physical damage, unless you have to be unlucky enough for one of those things to actually land on you before it causes any substantial damage... I really wouldn't put it past them.
Let's pay the Russians 100 billion Euros to use one of their doomsday nukes to take out Jerusalem.
That eliminates one of the disputes between those people. When they bitch we tell them that "their God has deemed them bad and destroyed His Holy City and if they don't cut the shit, they'll be next. Now shake hands."
If they continue, we let those ridiculous piss-ant people's kill one another and the rest of World can eventually live without all this drama and horseshit. We then can concentrate on other assholes like the N. Korean leadership.
The Middle East went from being the cradle of Western civilization to its cancer. And cancers need to be nuked.
Holy crap, check this thing out!
Color me impressed...
Well you know casualties happen in war, some of them civilians. If the Arabs were not insistent on waging war on Israel and would instead negotiate a peace treaty, perhaps Israel would no longer launch attacks which kill some of those Arabs which live in Palestine.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
What sort of "proportional response" do you suggest for hundreds of rockets being randomly fired at cities, destroying homes and killing people? Do you think Israel should start shelling Gaza, WWII Dresden style? Pray tell, what would you do?
This same hamas threw fatah members from high floors of buildings when the won their fair elections. I'm not sure elections are supposed to end that way
Interesting how blind the opposition can be towards the #1 killer of Islamic refugees and settlers... which are Islamic militants. Your enemy is yourself. You've created a bugbear out of the Jews and you use them as a scapegoat, but your hands are drenched in your own blood.
So the Palestinians launch missiles at Isreal and you are upset that Isreal is pissed off about it and launches counter attacks? If Canada started launching rockets at the US, I would expect us to invade and conquer them in short order. I'm surprised that Palestine has been allowed to exist as long as it has.
Godwin'd. Kindly STFU for the rest of this thread, you Nazi fuck.
Dr. Freud just slipped, he may take a moment to answer your page.
Thus, in both a military and an economic sense, MIRVs render ABM systems less effective, as the costs of maintaining a workable defense against MIRVs would greatly increase, requiring multiple defensive missiles for each offensive one. Decoy reentry vehicles can be used alongside actual warheads to minimize the chances of the actual warheads being intercepted before they reach their targets. A system that destroys the missile earlier in its trajectory (before MIRV separation) is not affected by this but is more difficult, and thus more expensive to implement.
Even if you made an iron dome for ballistic nuclear warheads, who ever is firing them at you is just going to make them split right before they hit your interceptor kill zone. And then you'll have less time to act or deploy your interceptors and a random number at each entry point. Could you take out some of them? Sure but it's a clam shell game.
I'm pretty sure Hamas isn't using MIRV technology and the Israelis have developed this Iron Dome tech to stop this specific kind of attack. Not ICBMs with complex nuclear payloads.
My work here is dung.
Now the other side needs to start using guided missiles that pretend like they're going to miss, but switch targets at the last second.
So in other words, the other side needs to learn to robotech its missiles.
The fact that those missiles strike crowded residential areas probably has something to do with various Arab organizations launching missiles at Israel from those very same residential areas. When you place military targets in residential areas, those residential areas become military targets.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
The difference would be that Canadians haven't been herded into ever decreasing areas, surrounded by barbed wire, walls, checkpoints and sniper towers. They haven't been denied the means and materials through blockade to have a decent standard of living. I would say that extremism is a virtually inevitable part of living life under siege.
Heavy-handed? Try showing restraint when your backyard is being targeted by rockets.
That analogy works if and only if you consider Palestinians to be more indigenous than Israelis.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
In those days, rockets were made of thin pieces of wood and launched from a device resembling a stringed musical instrument. As a result of their brazen unprovoked attacks, their civilisations were wiped off the face of the Earth by the technologicall superior interlopers a few decades after arrival. Kind of like the Palestinians. Isolated by the lines that the British drew all over the Middle East, impoverished by a long standing blockade and confined to the largest concentration camp in human history, all the while being bombed, starved and shot into annihilation.
How dare some of them get angry enough to attempt to fight back?
I hate printers.
They have been fighting for about 2k years. Surely, it will be over soon.
rewriting history since 2109
... the innocent civilian refugees dying in Gaza from missiles that are accurate enough to hit one car yet somehow manage to strike crowded residential areas every single day don't have the money to buy one of those. Or eat.
The reason Israels missiles "manage to strike crowded residental areas every single day", is simply becasue thats where Hamas sets up their rocket launchers. When you fire off rockets from within heavily populated civillian areas, despite the knowledge that your enemy is targeting your launch sites, bad stuff WILL happen.
However, if Israel hadnt kept on building settlements in the Palestinian areas of the west bank, sabotaging any attempt by the Palestinians to get a foothold in the U.N., or simply threated the Palestinians better, Palestinian resistance groups might not have felt as much need to attack Israel at any costs, but at the same time, firing off rockets towards your enemy from inside heavily populated civilian areas, makes Hamas at least party responsible for the heavy civillian losses in within Gaza City.
Let's make it clear, I condone the actions of Hamas but Israel's actions are very heavy-handed in proportion to Hamas' attacks/
I think you meant to use the word "condemn".
Heavy-handed? Try showing restraint when your backyard is being targeted by rockets.
Israel stole land from the Palestinians. They then allowed their people to build "settlements" on other people's land.
And you're condemning those people for fighting back?!? And obsolving Israel of any blame and condoning their complete over reaction?!?
Israel has lost all sympathy from me.
And people like you are going to keep this shit going on and on and on.
Israel is just living with their own karma. Oh, well. Too fucking bad!
Jews bought the land that Palestinians gave up. It was not stolen. It's a free market, and if they choose to sell, it's their problem. They can't go back on the deal 10 years later just because land prices go up when an actually civilized country makes something valuable out of it. I'm getting sick of this media bias. They can't put an army together, and somehow makes Israel the bad guy. They can't farm for shit and sell the land to Jews, that makes Israel the bad guy. They can't build or equip a working hospital, or train a decent doctor or put together deent medical supplies, and it's all the fault of Israel. What do they want? Free money? Israel was built by hard-working Jews, who had a plan and foresight. If the Palestinians have neither, it's their own problem.
This might be correct if the Jew was of Middle Eastern descent but the fact is that most Israeli Jews are white, and look like Europeans or Russians. Others are black (Ethiopians). None of these would look remotely like the brown skinned Arab you would be comparing them to.
A better analogy would be if Mexico launched rocket attacks on former Mexican territory which the US seized as a spoil of war (say, California). How long would the US wait before responding, especially in the face of continuing attacks?
Here's a random question for some knowledgeable person: how much of that $100,000 cost per interceptor is overhead? I realize that missiles aren't simple things, but that strikes me as way out of line with what it would actually cost to build one of these.
That goes for other missiles as well - you always hear about Tomahawks, etc., costing $1 million+, how much do they actually cost to build?
Allowed to exist?
What's the alternative? As far as I can see the only two "solutions" to Palestine existing is either to wipe them out completely or to occupy them. Wiping them out should of course not be seen as a realistic "solution", and occupation is too costly. Israel is not a big country with infinite finances.
I hope a ceasefire is announced soon.
Well, they were just thrown out of office.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
"right to retaliate".
There are two interesting words in that statement:
"right". Like they really would like to do it all the time, but only under certain circumstances do they gain the right. "In a democracy every citizen has the right to vote". "The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". "The right to retaliate". Does the police have the right to put you in prison when you commit a crime? Do they have a right to put you to death for murder? Or maybe they have an obligation? An obligation to the state? An obligation to do something that normal people would try to avoid?
"retaliate". This is not about preventing further attacks, or saving its citizens, or bringing justice to the perpetrators. No, it is simply a right to retaliate. Like when someone steals your purse, you gain the right to punch them back. Because that will make you feel so much better.
"In our school, when a kid gets punched, he gains the right to retaliate."
I really don't understand the argument against Isreal on this one. They've done a lot of wrong towards Palestinians, especially on the west bank side, but hundreds of rockets are being fired from Gaza targeting civilians. Isreal's assassination was a military target. Maybe they've killed some civilians in Gaza too, which is horrible, but at least accidental. They seem to avoid that when they can. Hamas is firing rockets directly at civilians. You have to see the difference.
Here's a handy diagram that may help to explain things. Try showing restraint when your neghbourhood has been invaded, bulldozed, and then built on.
It would still be wrong if the rockets were aimed at innocent civilians.
If you would strip an Isreali and a Palestinian naked and put them side by side, you wouldn't be able to tell which is which.
The palestinian would be the one with the suicide bomb around his dick ;)
...we put effort into our own defense...
"You didn't build that..." You had to spy on the Americans and get... how many billions in aid? Let's reduce you both to sticks and stones, and see how well you hold up.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
If prayer actually worked then there would be no need for an Iron Dome.
That's an interesting point. Many of the blond hair, blue eyed Israeli citizens hail from Germany, Poland, Russia, the U.S. Because they are currently Jewish, they have rights.
But those brown people, the Christians and Muslims, could they not have also been Jews too once? Jews that later converted to Christianity and Islam. The original people that lived in the land called Israel, 2000+ years ago.
Look around the neighborhood (Leb, Egypt,, Syria, etc.), they're all pretty brown too.
Just thinking...
Aren't a lot of Israelis brown people too? Not all Jews are European...
Only Jews would be dumb enough to try and live somewhere where everyone else fucking hates them, then act in a way to ensure that everyone continues to fucking hate them.
Because they were treated SO WELL in Europe over the years?
Israel assassinated one of the leaders of Hamas
The man who was killed, Ahmed al-Jabari, wasn't just "one of the leaders of Hamas". According to Gershon Baskin, who was involved in Israeli-Hamas negotiations:
"Passing messages between the two sides, I was able to learn firsthand that Mr. Jabari wasn’t just interested in a long-term cease-fire; he was also the person responsible for enforcing previous cease-fire understandings brokered by the Egyptian intelligence agency. Mr. Jabari enforced those cease-fires only after confirming that Israel was prepared to stop its attacks on Gaza. On the morning that he was killed, Mr. Jabari received a draft proposal for an extended cease-fire with Israel, including mechanisms that would verify intentions and ensure compliance. This draft was agreed upon by me and Hamas’s deputy foreign minister, Mr. Hamad, when we met last week in Egypt."
In other words, if Israel had really wanted a cease-fire agreement, they would have just waited for Jabari to sign the deal. Instead, they killed him.
I am officially gone from
Israeli engineers
Is that what they call spies these days?
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
The world wouldn't stand for the US invading Canada.
Just like the entire middle east would swamp Israel if they tried to occupy Palestine.
The Patriot missiles were known to occassionally follow their target to *its* target.
Aside from just missing, another issue is that even if you hit the target, you need to make sure that your missile detonates when it makes contact with any part of the target.
Finally, detection isn't perfect, trajectories are approximations at the time of launch. The missile needs to adjust using information collected in-flight.
You do realize this is because the missiles being fired into Israel are being fired from civilian areas.
This is but one thing that separates terrorists from soldiers... terrorists hide among the civilians using them as shields and propaganda.
There is little honor to go around on either side of this, but hiding among the civilians is an act of supreme cowardice and Evil.
--- Nothing To See Here ---
Too bad these innocent civilians elected a terrorist organization as their government.
They actively support acts of violence against Israeli civilians, so they should not be surprised when Israel defends itself.
Israeli brains maybe, but american tax payers paid for it
Yeah, all that espionage is paying off.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Nobody tried spitting yet.
So far they tried many ways of murdering civilian population.
They tried booby traps. They tried suicide bombing. They tried mortar shells. They tried home-made rockets. They tried firing on school buses.
The only thing Palestinians never tried is non-violence.
I remember how during the gulf war the patriot system was being lauded on news sites as being fantastically accurate, taking out most missiles before they landed, etc.
Only turned out later that it wasn't so accurate.
I'll give it a couple of years before I conclude whether the accuracy reported in the new system is just propaganda or not.
NY Times article has more information than the top link, e.g.: "Iron Dome has successfully intercepted more than 300 rockets fired at densely populated areas, with a success rate of 80 to 90 percent, top officials said."
So a bit lower percentage. Yet I'm skeptical of even that, because we have no independent verification, and officials are incented to cheerlead/bluff for things like this. Also note that it was about half paid for by the U.S. to the tune of about $900 million.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
Didn't take long for all the fucking Nazi's to start weighing in, did it?
But they can't make it too efficient. Otherwise it would be hard to justify killing hundreds of Palestinians by shelling and bombing residential areas.
...to Isreal, I think Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan should cut off all land, sea and air crossings, build walls, install tunnel detectors and disable all Israeli power and water plants.
Occasionally storming with ground troops couldn't hurt. You need to find those radicals who oppose the seige.
When Isreal stops opposing the seige, then the seige will be lifted. But we have to be sure they don't stop temporarily, so the seige should probably end if Isreal stops opposing for a couple decades or so.
Sounds like an excellent investment to me. You do realize that the US will benefit from this technology, yes?
It is a good question. Sri Lanka has managed to deal with LTTE (at a high cost to the Tamils in the region) but atleast there is some hope for long term peace for both communities. Isreal has the power to force the peace. Maybe its internal politics has a liberal slant.
So the Palestinians launch missiles at Isreal and you are upset that Isreal is pissed off about it and launches counter attacks? If Canada started launching rockets at the US, I would expect us to invade and conquer them in short order. I'm surprised that Palestine has been allowed to exist as long as it has.
If they hockey strike doesn't end shortly, Canada may just may go ballistic (he he) and do that out of boredom. How else
to get through the long winter?
Answering violence with violence for any reason (even justice) is how a region becomes lock in constant violence. Don't give in to hate.
Fiscal Cliff my ass!
In May 2010, the White House announced that U.S. President Barack Obama would seek $205 million from U.S. Congress in his 2011 budget, to spur the production and deployment of additional Iron Dome batteries.
(...)
On 18 May 2012, the United States House of Representatives passed the Fiscal Year 2013 National Defense Authorization Act, H.R. 4310, with $680 million for Iron Dome in Section 227. The report accompanying the bill, 112-479, also calls for technology sharing as well as co-production of Iron Dome in the United States in light of the nearly $900 million invested in the system since 2011.
Source: Wikipedia
Yes, both parties are at fault for continuing this ridiculous feud. But is America blockading and occupying Canadian land to begin with? No.
No, but America did blockade Cuba. Was it at fault that Soviets were trying to place missiles in Cuba? No. The Soviets were at fault. Just as the Arabs are at fault for electing Hamas to lead Gaza. If Hamas wasn't smuggling weapons in order to commit terrorist acts against Israel, Israelis would do what they with everyone else who doesn't shoot at them -- trade and cooperate.
I condone the actions of Hamas but Israel's actions are very heavy-handed in proportion to Hamas' attacks/
You misspoke, but your misstatement is actually the truth. You DO condone the attacks by Hamas simply because you call Israel's actions heavy-handed. Saying that Israel overreacts in self-defense gives too much deference to the attackers.
Go ahead and spew something about propaganda. That's what everyone else who hates Israel seems to do when hear plainly stated facts.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Few people would condemn self-defence. If you can condone the actions of the French Resistance in World War II, you can condone the actions of the Palestinians now. Of course, the French Resistance were terrorists ... as far as the Nazis were concerned. But of course *we* can never be the *bad guys*, by definition.
American Indians cross the Bering Strait when exactly? Oh that's right, they're not indigenous at all.
Yeah, war sucks. But Israel didn't start it. Doesn't mean they shouldn't try to win it.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
It's funny how I don't get pissed off that there's a part of Manhattan that's filled with Chinese people.
So, when the interception rate gets high enough, I presume that the antagonists will shift to using huge numbers of smaller rockets. Either there will be too many inbound rockets to be intercepted, or they will be able to all be intercepted, but it will get hugely expensive at $100k for every rinky-dink rocket, or the Israelis will decide that, on a per-rocket basis, $100k is too much to spend based upon the marginal damage that inbound rocket would do, so they don't shoot it down, and then, based upon the number of rockets launched, they add up to significant damage.
Note, I'm not saying that the Israelis are wasting their time, or that their technology is stupid. To the contrary, I think it's pretty neat. But, it won't surprise me if their antagonists du-jur come up with some really cheap counter-measure.
I wonder what the cowboys would have to say about that and how much the world would dare to condemn them.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Strangely, it's more complicated than that. Isreal was attacked more than once by it's neighbours before 1967. It's not really unreasonable for them to want a buffer zone they control access to around their main populated region.
That argument works if and only if you think it's fine for non-indigenous peoples to be subjugated and blockaded.
Pre-suppose your conclusion and you can prove anything by begging the question.
What would you do if the Canadians surrounded your town, marched you out of your home at gunpoint, bulldozed it flat, and told you to get the hell out of Canada?
Doesn't take Canadians. Chinese do it to their own people. In the US, you can lose your land to eminent domain. Sometimes the world moves. You can go on, or you can go on slaughtering women and children and pretend it makes you feel better. If it actually makes you feel better, you have it coming.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
check how many were killed in syria over the same time period. (hint: the number is close to an order of magnitude higher).
iron dome, BTW is SAVING palestinian lives, since the political pressure on the israelis to invade or use artiliary is lower then it would have been if those rockets attacks on israel would have been successful.
note that it's the Hamas people who are DARING israel to invade. they actually WANT an invasion. it's within their interest that israel invade.
The Palestinians? What, all of them? Even the children?
Yes, even some of the children.
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
Well, if the US sent their military into Vancouver for "security" reasons, throwing out all the Canadians who lived there and allowed US citizens to build homes and "settle" the area and considering the US's superior military, I wouldn't blame Canada in the least for shooting rockets over the border.
Exactly. At first, when you learn about a few Arab-instigated wars Israel has had to fight off, you have a little sympathy for their argument that they need Gaza, Golan, and the West Bank as buffer zones as well as a little punishment upon their aggressors, with the notion being that "You'll get this back when you've learned your lesson".
But then you find out that they're displacing the people living in those areas and then just gifting that land to Israeli settlers and you're like "WTF?!?! How are they ever going to undo that? You can't just go to the settlers and say 'Okay. Time to come back home, we are giving that land back to the Palestinians...'".
So, yeah... when Israeli's call those areas "buffer zones" or anything implying that they're temporary for as long as their neighbors are hostile toward them, I don't believe them for a second.
The US tends to keep Texas separatists from getting a foothold in the U.N. as well.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Yep, that's the standard Israeli newsline, alright.
The truth: "Israel was offered a truce; didn't respond; then tacitly agreed to a lull, which appeared to be working, until Israel shattered it with a massive escalation; in self-defence."
http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/blog_comments/israel_bombs_gaza_a_chronological_reminder
Where are you getting your information from? "Isreal" don't real.
Fifth battery was delivered to Tel-Aviv on Saturday. It saved our asses here.
Coverage is not hard as Israel is extremely small, for 100 percent coverage we'd need 13 batteries. but then again they're aiming for the center to south half of Israel (as far as their Iranian missile can reach), a big portion of the south is desert land which additionally reduces the area to be protected.
Israel is practically carpet bombing Gaza every time Hamas launches an attack. They're killing at LEAST 10 times as many civilians as the terrorists are. I wouldn't be surprised if Israel was secretly hoping Hamas continued being stupid, just so they'd have an excuse to slowly wipe Palestine and all it's people off the map.
Perhaps it's because you are ignoring the whole history of the conflict, instead pretending that it all started just last week?
People are claiming that no state would allow to be rained with rockets. But when it comes to being expelled from own land, then subjected to brutal occupation for 45 years and left in open air prison where being subjected to deliberate policy of collective punishment by driving the population into poverty, including raining rockets and bombs on them, then the same people seems to expect everyone should peacefully submit to this.
If you want Palestinians stop randomly lobbing rackets into Israel then give them modern guided misses. I'm sure they wont waste then on randomly hitting sand and once in thousands cases also some house or tank, rather they will target the same type of military and civilian infrastructure Israel is firing at. Somehow I think Israel leaders are quite happy with the situation as it is.
Iran is officially sending missiles to Gaza. Not being coy about it.
Iran is pitting the Palestinians against Israelis while gleefully rubbing their hands. It is a wonder how we haven't figured that they are the ones who should be punished.
That means they know exactly where it was launched from too.
Accurate automated retaliation next perhaps?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/condone
Its only a moral difference, not a technical one. What it comes down to is both sides killing eachother and being a bunch of total dickwats.
Be careful with your analogies, because it could mean that whoever claims is Indian or has Indian religion has the right to take back America by force at least for the next 1500 years.
Well, certainly a blode jew from the USA, whose last ancestor to live there died over 1000 years ago, is far more indigenous than the local arabs?
It's 40K USD per interceptor. If unsure, the system fires two consecutive interceptor missiles. Recently the level of confidence has increased and only one interceptor is fired in most cases.
No, but America did blockade Cuba. Was it at fault that Soviets were trying to place missiles in Cuba? No. The Soviets were at fault.
You've got the order wrong there - the USSR put missiles in Cuba, and then we blockaded Cuba.
And given that blockades are frequently recognized as acts of war, then yes, responding militarily to one is entirely unsurprising.
And where is a place that people don't hate them?
Antarctica?
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
When are the Palestinians going to explicitly recognize Israel's right to exist?
Well, technically, when Israel officially starts defining itself as an Islamic country intended (although not necessarily for real) into adopting Sharia law, coupled with a sizable portion of the currently non-Islamic population following suit and converting. Then it wouldn't be possible, from an Islamic perspective at least, to call its government an external power who came to desecrate land that had already been Islamized.
Not that this would be a good thing, mind you, but that it'd achieve this specific goal, it would.
Although I wonder if that wouldn't end with "New Muslim" Jews being persecuted in a similar way their "New Christian" counterparts were in pre-19th century Europe.
Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
Also, a quick glance at the death tolls of each nation can be quite handy in identifying who the aggressor is.
Indeed. It's an instructive example.
Sri Lanka dealt with the Tamil Tigers with overwhelming military force, annexation, and only modest attention to civilian casualties. There is no "peace process", no Tamilstan, no "two-state solution", and nobody advocating boycotts of Sri Lanka dipped in fairly transparent anti-Sinhalese bigotry. And everybody else seems perfectly happy about it. (I am too, as the LTTE turned into vicious terrorist scum who deserved what they got.)
What's up with that?
overwhelm the system by launching many multiple rockets at the same time.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
So they're almost finished then?
"goofy" rocket fuel
rather than a nice straight acceleration curve, "poison" the rocket fuel so it sputters and weakens in flight on purpose. Yes, the rocket won't be accurate, but I don't think accuracy is the point. Meanwhile, the goofy microaccelerations and microdecelerations would make the rocket impossible to target accurately.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=292706 though their policy is only to try and stop the ones on their way to populated areas, perhaps because it costs $100,000 to stop one
In other words, if Israel had really wanted a cease-fire agreement, they would have just waited for Jabari to sign the deal. Instead, they killed him.
Yeah, I have a hunch that Israel knew all hell would break lose with Hamas and did it on purpose: after all it's not like Syria can back them up now, all tied up as they are in their civil war. If Israel needs a time to finish the Palestinians, this is as good as it will be for quite a while.
Non-Linux Penguins ?
Why does it matter who's more indigenous?
Reading that I would summise that you think Palestinians have know right of claim at all... I wonder why your conscious has pushed you to such extremes...
Their leader, in a car, on a public street, is a legitimate military target in your mind? If Hamas hit Netanyahu or Lieberman this way you would call that a fair strike then? Even if some civilians had the bad luck to be in the blast radius, it's still a fair shot right? I doubt it. I am pretty sure if they pulled that off you would call it a terrorist attack.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
I'd say, as someone living in Israel (Tel Aviv, specifically) at the moment that its been quite effective on the longer range Fajr-5 Iranian-made missiles that had been fired my way. Another thing that might be changing the over all statistic is that there are two version of the system out at the moment- The older system which had started to roll out a year or two ago, along with a new generation of hardware. Perhaps the spokesman is only referring to the 'newer' upgraded versions.
You mean on earth? There has been people all around hating on the Jews for a long time. And you can thank the ottoman empire and the Brits for them being in this particular place.
In my opinion, Palistine lost any claim on the lands given to them by the UN/UK when they starte and lost the '48 war. International warfare should always be played for keeps. You start the war and lose and you're lucky if your women aren't simply prizes for the victorious army and your lands become little more than a reminder to future nations not to attack someone stronger than you.
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
Israel was attacked. There was a war. Israel won. The intent of the war was to annihilate Israel. The fact that Israel didn't respond in kind is to their credit.
Tell me, after fending off an attempted murder on the street, do you think the attacker should get to just walk along? After all, hasn't having his efforts thwarted all the punishment that is called for?
The Queen of England sits on her throne because of the right of conquest. After she leaves, lets ask Israel to leave.
You can't just go to the settlers and say 'Okay. Time to come back home'
Umm, isn't that exactly what happened in Gaza?
With the deliberate intent of provoking a response allowing them to continue the 'poor innocent little defenseless Israel' scam.
Answer the question.
...must be overjoyed at helping fund this.
I guess that makes the US the most aggressive country in the world, as they invariably suffer far fewer casualties than their opponents. Maybe it is more complicated than that...
I think someone needs to bulldoze your home.
Both proponents and opponents argued about high hits rates during the US Star Wars program. (Started by Reagan, but not yet over.) Proponents would claim even if just some lives would saved, it would be a success. Opponents would claim that if only one nuke got through, it would be a disastrous failure. I lean toward the former.
This map although entertaining, has a few small issues but as with most things keep telling a lie and eventually it will be true (at least in your head).
The land you refer too up until the end of world war I was part of the ottoman empire, with the collapse of that empire the British (Being the winners) divided up all the land they captured and created the modern day countries (Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq .. and so on)
the map you show has two errors
1) the northeast tip, this was not part of the British mandate, that area was captured from Syria in 1982 as a defensive war with them and was fully annexed by Israel to prevent Syria from having a high round to launch rockets (was popular back then too).
2) the whole eastern bank of the Jordan is missing from your map (yet I don't see the people in the west bank firing rockets at Jordan) that was also part of the original partition plan see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Remo_conference
the British before formalizing the British mandate but after the above conference took off what is now Jordan and then left a much smaller part to be divided between the Jewish and Arabs living in the land. (So yes from a technical point it was not part of the mandate since they grabbed it before hand).
A few other points to consider
3) A rather important note, the British never expected to win world war I and collapse the Ottoman empire so they promised everyone everything with the expectations they would end in a stalemate and never have to make good on those promises. (Watch the movie the Producers to get an idea how that works).
4) There was never a Palestine as an independent entity onto itself, it was part of the Syra-Lebonon-Palistine district with very little arable land and a very low population until after the Balfour Deceleration and then the war began in ernest for that land since the British did win and won soundly they now had to make good on all their conflicting promises they made.
5) the Last note and here is where things get foggy, the "land" was owned by someone, it was not just land the problem with your map is that large tracks of land were actually purchased not conquered, not stolen but bought from the ottoman empire by various Jewish parties (Barron Rothchild being one of them), when the Jewish state was declared many lost their homes (Jewish settlements in Jordan annexed area were destroyed and Arab villages in the Jewish controlled areas also war sucks but it was those very Arabs that rejected the border and peace proposed by the British) and the large section in the south is a massive desert with no "owner" at the time of the British mandate.
A fairly good response to that map is here http://www.catholicsforisrael.com/en/articles/israel-today/188-israel-palestine-when-the-map-lies
Although biased for Israel it shows how deceptive this map you shared actually is.
Well of course, I mean the guy was totally credible in enforcing past cease fires, so obviously he would have enforced this one. Duh. Cease fires have not worked before because Hamas can't or won't hold to them. Despite this guys claim, I doubt this time would have been any different.
Actually, Israel launched an attack in Gaza first. The rockets were retaliation, if they were even launched by Hamas (which I'm skeptical about - since the only ones with anything to gain is Israel and their allies).
If the US decided tomorrow to take over Toronto and start rounding up the existing residents and putting them in what amounts to a concentration camp, I'd expect at some point they'd fight back and try to reclaim their houses/businesses/schools. I'm not sure if I'm more dumbfounded that you really just suggested that an entire race of people be exterminated in order to more easily steal their land and belongings, or that someone upvoted you for doing so. I guess the Jewish social media brigade is out in full force this week.
The problem with your example is that the land of the US was never part of Canada. It would make sense if some other country came along and told Canada "This land is no longer yours. It now belongs to the Americans." And for the next few decades Canada puts up Americans crossing its borders, settling on its land claiming it for themselves. All the while the US government does nothing. So in a way Canada does have a right to be pissed at the US. But its more complex than that, the Americans were there first, a few thousand years prior, before the Canadians kicked them out by force. Plus god told the Americans that it was their promise land, so by right the land belongs to the americans. So who is right in this case? The Americans who want their "god given" land back or the Canadians who have settled and claimed that land for over 1300 years?
Another example would be if Native Americans launched missiles from their reservations into surrounding US communities. Another parallel were the IRA attacks on Northern Ireland. People get pissed when you take their land away.
And that is the truth behind Israel and Palestine. The Jews were there first about 3000+ years ago. Then the Arabs forced them out around 650 AD. 1300 years later, during WWI, the British gained control of Palestine and the Jews started coming back. After WWII it became apparent the displaced Jews and Holocost survivors needed a place to go and the British would not let them all into Palestine as there was an immigration quota in place. After the Jewish Zionist Terrorist organization, Lehi, carried out assassinations and bombings against the British in protest, the US and UN eventually forced Britain into establishing Israel in order to stop the violence.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
No matter whose side you look at, each has a point. Its a catch 22 situation. The Jews established that land as theirs first. But the Arabs had control over the land for well over a 1000 years. After that much times passes you would think the Jews would just say fuck it, we can settle in the west. But the Zionist mentality is firmly rooted in the belief of the Jewish state, the "promise land". Basically no matter who says what, god gave them the deed to Israel and there is no higher authority that can tell them otherwise.
Being indigenous has a bearing on the right to launch missiles into cities? Why? What do you call that anyway, original killing rights?
Rockets in general create a rather large thermal signature considering you're burning propellant - the hot exhaust is nice and bright on modern thermal imaging system. These types of detection systems are already in place on most modern jet fighters or aircraft like Air Force One to deploy AA missile counter measures automatically. Second, they're metal objects flying at a relatively low altitude, and probably have a very nice radar cross section for short wave radar.
An ICBM will be at a much higher altitude, and will become much smaller once the warhead(s) deploys. This will probably glow quite nicely on reentry, but will be traveling so fast intercepting it in a timely manner is much more difficult. Toss in the MIRVs and decoy systems already developed (of course the people designing this stuff 40 years ago considered decoys) and the challenge becomes much more difficult. You now have the inverse square of thermal radiation from the warhead working against you because of the distance. The temperature difference to the sky at the peak of the trajectory will be small, and when it finally starts to heat up from air friction, it will likely be too late. Short of using massive radar stations, it's a crap shoot at best.
Sounds like he was also one of the guys responsible for breaking those cease fires.
Which is actually representative of reality.
A vast majority of Jews in Israel are from Europe.
There was a time when German and Russian were candidates for the national language.
Semitic Jews are a minority in Israel.
"Here's a handy diagram [loveforlife.com.au] that may help to explain things."
Not really, it uses the abitrary year of 1946 as it's starting point. Take the chart back further, and it'll tell a different story again. The Palestinians and Jews (and their descendants) have been fighting over this land for over 2000 years.
"Try showing restraint when your neghbourhood has been invaded, bulldozed, and then built on."
Well, Fatah and the Palestinians in the West Bank seem to manage to okay, but that's why I sympathise with their cause. Hamas and the Palestinians in Gaza on the other hand? they only have themselves to blame.
I wonder what the result would be now if we would have a similar system which works against nukes given it to a smart AI which asked:
"Shall we play a game"
On OUR nickel, this "Buys Israel More Time ..." to oppress the Palestinians. Nothing quite so fun as shooting a captive populace with no standing army to defend them eh?
No, it's not complicated.
US is the most aggesive country in the world by far.
Agreed, it has to be a two way street. He can't take responsibility for being able to broker ceasefires as and when he wants and then not also blame him when firing starts again. Either he has the power to prevent rocket fire from Gaza or he doesn't, which is it?
An alternative and equally valid reading of the situation to the GPs is hence, if Israel really wanted a long lasting ceasefire, it was clear this guy wasn't going to be the one to give it to them having allowed rocket fire to commence once again against Israel time and time again.
But meh, I don't know why I bother with discussions like this, they're far too partisan to include this kind of rational balancing of alternative theories. Taking a quote from someone on one side of a conflict, and using it as damning evidence against the other side without considering both sides of the argument, is about as stupid, partisan, and ignorant as it gets.
And where sir do the pilots that drop the bombs go after they finish work for the day?
Absolutely America is occupying Canadian land. Sense 1776. Bastards. They will get theirs.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including; Akkadians (Assyrians and Babylonians), Eblaites, Ugarites, Canaanites, Phoenicians (including Carthaginians), Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans and Samaritans), Ahlamu, Arameans, Chaldeans, Amorites, Moabites, Edomites, Hyksos, Arabs, Nabateans, Maganites, Shebans, Sutu, Ubarites, Dilmunites, Bahranis, Maltese, Mandaeans, Sabians, Syriacs, Mhallami, Amalekites and Ethiopian Semites.
I get it, you are referring to people discriminating against Jews, it just annoys me that political correctness is actually causing more confusion.
Another example, calling black people African Americans. I have friends that are black that are not from Africa or America and take offense at being called an American.
Not to be pedantic, but the Germans actually had better then a 1:1 kill ratio against the Americans in WWII.
Before that it 1812 and the Brits. Other then that, we have always been better trained and equipped.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Their leader, in a car, on a public street, is a legitimate military target in your mind?
Of course. Why wouldn't it be?
If Hamas hit Netanyahu or Lieberman this way you would call that a fair strike then?
If they followed the rules of war in doing so, then yes, I would. First, they have to declare war in some way. Then they have to send in their guys in uniform so that they are clearly distinguished from civilians. Do you see where I'm going with this?
Israel stole land from the Palestinians. They then allowed their people to build "settlements" on other people's land.
Israel completely withdrew from Gaza. But your argument would be wrong even if they didn't.
whatever.
In this situation Israel and Israel alone has the power to stop this. Period.
They won't and they don't have the will to do so.
Israel will be stuck in this pathetic conflict until their Savior arrives.
So, go ahead and tell folks they're wrong. Go ahead and defend Israel's actions. Go ahead and rationalize the treatment of the Palestinians.
Go ahead.
The Israelis are in the Hell they created. And in 2012 they have only themselves to blame.
Karma is a bitch, dude.
Two men enter, one man leaves!
Two men enter, one man leaves!
"Maybe it is more complicated than that..."
No, pretty much says it all.
Buffer zone? That's good. For any German readers out there: that translates to Lebensraum.
And let's not forget that during past conflicts:
Hamas have conspired to lend themselves a false legitimacy by claiming high civilian losses, when in fact they used human shields during ground offenses by deploying armed soldiers dressed as civilians in violation of the Geneva Convention rules of engagement. Hamas leadership has sought shelter underneath hospitals, putting the population least able to defend themselves at great risk. They even used a captured Red Cross vehicle to launch attacks, a flagrant violation of the Geneva Convention. Hamas have used mosques, schools, and civilian homes as hideouts and to store weapons and rocket launch sites or have placed their storage and/or sites adjacent to those dwellings.
The collateral damage was stragetically planned and such tactics had been previously used by Saddam Hussein during Operation Desert Storm of the 1991 Iraq-Kuwait conflict. They have attempted to deceive and manipulate international press and public opinion by staging rocket damaged areas in civilian areas and exploiting image manipulation, and the international press now carefully scrutinizes photographs and sources of information from those war zones.
Hamas has been planning a campaign of deceit from the beginning. While neither side are angels in this conflict, the greater sin is upon Hamas for their deceit.
Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
History epic fail.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Strangely, it's more complicated than that. Isreal was attacked more than once by it's neighbours before 1967. It's not really unreasonable for them to want a buffer zone they control access to around their main populated region.
It's even MORE complicated than that....
Israel was created because of Europe's guilt over their anti-Semitism - and a great excuse to get the Jews out of their lands.
But there's a whole lot more.
But the thing is....Israel - and Israel alone- has the power to stop this. The US is their bitch (even with Obama) and Israel has the second greatest military might (second to their bitch) in the region. So what's the fucking problem?!?
Israel is now considered to be as bad as the Chinese (think Tibet). They can come back to being the "victim" that they so love to wallow in, and give the Palestinians their land and shove the fuck off.
But no! They won't do that.
Fuck'em I say.
And with certainty, they'd fail.
Which leaves the choice of dealing with a bad situation peacefully, or dying. The Palis are retards because they are choosing death for themselves and children over life.
If you would strip an Isreali and a Palestinian naked and put them side by side, you wouldn't be able to tell which is which.
The palestinian would be the one with the suicide bomb around his dick ;)
A dick, that smells strangely and interestingly like goat.
Israel is practically carpet bombing Gaza every time Hamas launches an attack. They're killing at LEAST 10 times as many civilians as the terrorists are.
Should they fire _exactly_ as many rockets as Hamas?
The reason civilians get killed is because Hamas places their rocket installation in civilian regions. It is terrible, but the alternative would be to just let the rockets hit residential Israeli areas and not retaliate at all because Hamas hides their launch sites next to civilians. That's pretty much what Hamas counts on by using civilians as a shield.
We'd throw them a puck and 12 pack of nasty Canadian can beer. They would forget they had rockets, modify rocket parts to be hockey sticks etc.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Hamas is firing dumb rockets in a general direction. They lack the capability to target military targets or civilians. They prefer to hit military targets, but the chance is much higher for hitting a civilian target or nothing at all. This is irresponsible and ineffective, but the rockets are simple enough to be built in a workshop by a few people.
A blog? From 'newleftproject'? That's credible. /sarc
Do you have a credible citation?
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The law of unintended consequences will come into play here. If hamas can't fire rockets or otherwise harm israel to get its point across what do you all think will happen next? I foresee suicide bombings all over israel as that is their last possible act of desperation and losing. Sad but true just look at what happened at Iraq and Afghanistan when we though we where winning....
Lookout for next wave of attacks it won't be rockets.
Let me guess, you were one of the kids that didn't fight back?
Pussy. You never learned a few valuable lessons. First: Parents and teachers live in a dream world where you should not fight back and all will be well. Second: Only when the bastards get a bloody nose they will stop picking on you. Third: Once you have bloodied a nose or two the rest of the bastards will leave you alone.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Bleeding-edge military technology performs much better than 30-year-old military technology. Story at 11. /sigh
Hamas: radical, but not a corrupt puppet government that the US and Israel were trying to set up.
Fatah: said puppet group.
Those were the only two choices in the election that the US forced.
And FU to all those that called the defense plans "star wars" and that it wouldn't work.
Intercepting the V2 rocket was impossible - waaayyyy too fast, but there weren't nearly as many V2s as there were V1s.
Intercepting a V1 wasn't as hard, that thing flew like an airplane, basically. It could be intercepted by using height - dive down using altitude to make the intercepting airplane faster, because otherwise it would have had problems catching the pretty fast V1.
V1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb
V2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2
I do not trust the "semitic" information one iota more than the "antisemitic" kind.
You need a different adjective. Both sides in this conflict are Semitic.
From dictionary.com:
Semitic
a subfamily of Afroasiatic languages that includes Akkadian, Arabic, Aramaic, Ethiopic, hebrew, and Phoenician.
Considering the fact that the Palestinian rockets have the level of sophistication of technology typically found in an average machine shop, it's good that a multi-billion dollar defense system is actually able to defend against them.
And where sir do the pilots that drop the bombs go after they finish work for the day?
The crucial fact to establish is where they are when they are in combat.
The pilots are up there alone, in clearly marked, distinctive military aircraft, and they can be shot down without any civilian casualties.
The terrorists shoot mortars from the vicinity of schools and hospitals.
My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
American Indians cross the Bering Strait when exactly? Oh that's right, they're not indigenous at all.
well, their (and your) great great great grandma was from africa
Ain't religion great?
Cetero censeo civitates Palestinenses delendas esse. Usque ad ultimam.
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
Oi. Fine, I'm naive, but, seriously?
Might doesn't always make right.
People shouldn't be thought of as prizes, especially in the barbaric ways the above implies.
Also, 'Playing for keeps' and working in absolutes... these things don't work in the real world.
SDI also included space based lasers (obstructed and distorted by cloud and atmospherics) ...
I believe the space based lasers were supposed to hit intercontinental ballistic missiles when they left the atmosphere. The upper part of such a missile's parabolic trajectory is beyond the atmosphere.
If your neighbors were madmen who wish your death above all else, wouldn't you barge in and show them who's boss, if you could?
It's not necessarily right, but it's understandable, unlike the pure hatred coming from the other side.
So the Soviet Union was the aggressor against Nazi Germany?
Untrue. Wikipedia says:
>By 20 November, Gaza health officials said that 113 Palestinians had been killed since the operation began, of which: 53 were civilians, 49 militants and 1 a policeman
Note that is an estimate from a Palestinian source.
Carpet-bombing, or anything close to it, would have resulted in a far higher number of Palestinian deaths. Any loss of innocent life is tragic but these numbers show a commitment to minimizing civilian casualties on the part of the IDF. Unlike Hamas which intentionally targets civilians with their rocket strikes.
Does having a buffer zone necessarily include settlements on stolen land, further generic land grabs, diverting the scarce water resources, keeping farmer from working on their lands and generally doing their best to make people's lifes miserable? I can understand buffer zones, but not this.
Few people would condemn self-defence. If you can condone the actions of the French Resistance in World War II, you can condone the actions of the Palestinians now. Of course, the French Resistance were terrorists ... as far as the Nazis were concerned. But of course *we* can never be the *bad guys*, by definition.
That something is necessary does not make it less despicable.
If some armed burgler kicks down my door waving a gun around firing shots, you better believe I'm going to shoot him. I will certainly NOT be glad I did. That would be a horrifying, monstrous thing to do to any fellow human being no matter how necessary and warranted it was. I imagine it would haunt me the rest of my life. I am glad it has never come to that. Yes, I would not hesitate to do what has to be done. No, I cannot condone it. See the difference?
Few people would condemn self-defence. If you can condone the actions of the French Resistance in World War II, you can condone the actions of the Palestinians now. Of course, the French Resistance were terrorists ... as far as the Nazis were concerned. But of course *we* can never be the *bad guys*, by definition.
That something is necessary does not make it less despicable. If some armed burgler kicks down my door waving a gun around firing shots, you better believe I'm going to shoot him. I will certainly NOT be glad I did. That would be a horrifying, monstrous thing to do to any fellow human being no matter how necessary and warranted it was. I imagine it would haunt me the rest of my life. I am glad it has never come to that. Yes, I would not hesitate to do what has to be done. No, I cannot condone it. See the difference?
Same AC here. I hit Submit too soon. I meant to add, the disturbing part of this whole deal is the blood-lust and war-mongering that comes out of people. It's like they want to see people get blown up and die. It's like they aren't considering the humanity and the mourning families and the "collateral damage" and the quality of life in the region. They aren't considering what these people could achieve if they did learn to work together in peace. It's more like it's some great big long-running Halo match and we're the armchair spectators.
Israel and the Palestinians is a very sad situation, full of human suffering with no end in sight. Both sides feel completely justified in continuing the violence. Neither side seems able or willing to obtain a decisive once-and-for-all victory over the other, like when Germany surrendered during WWII. There is tons of propaganda on both sides, just like you find with any war. The whole thing is just a great big orgy of fear, hate, and revenge.
It's as though neither side deserves to live in the region and both should be relocated to opposite sides of the globe. I don't see that happening, but it's not unprecedented when you consider how Israel as we know it today was established in the first place. Generally I think sovereign nations should be respected as such, just like generally I believe killing a human being is wrong, but I acknowledge that tragically, sometimes both are necessary.
I was just going to comment that Americans, historically, have not been as tolerant as Israelis. We may not have invented the death march or the "reservation", but we did have some pretty solid examples.
I'd also like to point out that Egypt and Jordan are, not coincidentally, the two neighbors that signed a peace treaty with Israel AND who aren't asking for their territory back.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
How do you know they prefer to hit military targets? Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?
You mean after you fled your neighborhood so that others could come through to destroy them? Sorry but war losses are just that, war losses and under historic norms, any part of Palestine that Israel conquered is its by right of conquest.
Let me guess, you were one of the kids that didn't fight back?
Pussy. You never learned a few valuable lessons. First: Parents and teachers live in a dream world where you should not fight back and all will be well. Second: Only when the bastards get a bloody nose they will stop picking on you. Third: Once you have bloodied a nose or two the rest of the bastards will leave you alone.
It didn't really come up very often, so I don't remember the question ever being raised. I think somehow all the bastards must have gone to your school...
But yes, for you "the right to retaliate" is really a right to be savored? That's how you feel when you get hurt? That you finally have the right to retaliate? Interesting. You see, one of the hardest things is to understand how other people think, because we all think that we all think the same way.
Maybe you could ask them not to launch rockets from playgrounds, next to hospitals, the front yards of homes, and mosques too. You know, the places where other "civilized" powers consider them off limits in all forms of war. Oh wait...that only counts if you're a western power, if you're anyone else it's okay. Along with child soldiers, and strapping bombs on to the mentally retarded and sending them off to be remotely blown up at check points.
Om, nomnomnom...
Exactly. If someone attacks you and instead of responding with violence, you don't respond and you instead *die*, then you will then be at peace.
Idiot.
Well let's say you condone their actions. Then this is the type of stuff you support. Oh and that's Hamas dragging a guy's body through the streets on the back of a motor cycle, and then there's the other stuff about the supposed "jewish collaborator" that they executed in the middle of the street.
Yeah, good guys to support. If Israel's attacks are heavy handed(over 1200 missile attacks and less than 140 dead with direct targeting) vs the palestinians 12000+ missile attacks directly targeting civilians. You've got a screw loose.
Om, nomnomnom...
If you would strip an Isreali and a Palestinian naked and put them side by side, you wouldn't be able to tell which is which.
The palestinian would be the one with the suicide bomb around his dick ;)
Are they making the suicide bombs that small now?
Well either way, WTF is up with American Natives having sovereign lands within America. It's ridiculous!
Israel is practically carpet bombing Gaza every time Hamas launches an attack.
I don't think you know what carpet bombing means. Please review the linked article before you spout off again.
They're killing at LEAST 10 times as many civilians as the terrorists are.
So it's the Israeli's fault that they have bomb shelters and that the terrorists have poor aim? Maybe the Israelis should run towards wherever the missiles are going to land, instead of to their bomb shelters? Ask yourself how many Palestinian civilians would be dead if the Israeli military was randomly and indiscriminately firing missiles into Gaza. Note that this is what Hamas is doing to the Israeli civilians. Any outrage at that? Why not?
I wouldn't be surprised if Israel was secretly hoping Hamas continued being stupid, just so they'd have an excuse to slowly wipe Palestine and all it's people off the map.
They don't have to hope that, it seems guaranteed. If the Israeli's wanted to kill all the people in Gaza they wouldn't need an excuse and it would be done already.
I have little love for Israel.
The Israeli death tolls are low because Israel wants her people to live. The Arab death tolls are high because Hamas wants their people to die. I quote from Hamas "we love death like the Jews love life". Every dead Arab child is a victory for Hamas.
could it be?
Then, dont complain, if your enemy takes the same stance, and tries to use all their might to get back their lands.
You condone a terrorist non-state attempting to bully a UN Appointed Nation into giving away it's land and sovereignty? You are incredibly ignorant. When Israel was created after WW-II, the area was a desolate wasteland that no one wanted. The Jew hating religions started planning their attacks almost immediately. There is NO SUCH PLACE as Palestine and never has been. There is no justification for Hamas or the "PLO" for attacking Israel or her territories.
*Sigh* for the loss of historical lessons in the world.
Penguins are well-known anti-Semites.
Check out my world simulator thingy.
Why does Hamas have to do that before they hit the IDF, but the IDF doesnt have to do that before hitting Hamas?
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You can also look up "anti-Semitic" in dictionary.com or any other standard reference and see that in the word specifically denotes hostility or hatred of Jews. A lot of people are genuinely confused by this terminology, ...
In particular you and the GGP. The palestinian terrorist and murderer of Israeli civilians Yasser Arafat famous corrected someone who tried to label him an anti-semite, pointing out that Palestinians are also semites.
... but you can be pretty sure that when someone argues that "anti-Seimtism" is a meaningless term, ...
Straw man. The GP did not do so, all he said was that the wrong adjective was used. That fact remains that palestinians consider themselves semites.
... even after having been shown a the dictionary definition and history of the term, it is pretty good evidence that he or she is an anti-Semite.
Obviously someone who points out that palestinians are also semites must be a nazi. Your logic is breathtaking ... as in people are laughing at you so hard that they can not breathe.
Until they get those rockets they might start with bows and arrows.
Oh, wait...
Too bad you are using a misleading diagram as your basis for whatever,
The wrong facts:
1. the green area in 1946 makes no sense, mainly in the totally unpopulated areas (such as Negev) which are still not populated, what was bulldozed exactly?
2. Who didn't accept the partition program (1947)?
3. You do recall that those parts in 1967 were actually Egypt and Jordan?
4. Why stop at 2000? there is no Israeli presence in the gaza strip for years now, but your map is as inaccurate as can be.
Most settlements were not built on previously populated locations, just recall the fact that the population in 47 was around 10% of what it is today.
However, yes, the proper way to show your restrain is to send random rockets and sucide bombers, shows real good sense.
Have fun
Except they keep giving them lands back in exchange for peace.
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
Those negotiations never had a representative of the Israeli government present. It was a 3rd party, not authorized to negotiate.
Yes. I understand the Palestinians want more and more, but what they really want is all of what is Israel, and they want every Jew dead. I'm not for that. They have to accept the existence of a Jewish state, and move on (not just them, but the rest of the middle east). That they haven't, indicates that they are intolerant of other people/religions/cultures. For that, I blame them squarely. Today they are mad at Israel. If they destroy Israel, then some day they will be intolerant of you. It would be your religion or your skin color, or the color of your socks, but they won't be happy and they want you dead. I cannot tolerate their intolerance. I like living in a democracy. I am cheerful and happy to declare here and now that Israel is a legitimate state. Regardless of the situation on the ground, this is the fundamental, and biggest difference between those who began the aggression against Israel, and Israel.
...I'm fairly sure it's only Hamas who've been launching the missiles, but hey, why not just fire indiscriminately into a heavily populated city anyway in retaliation? Sure you'll kill a large number of civilians and children, but hey they're just Palestinians so who cares?
One problem is that Hamas troops are not dressing in uniform, and operating from civilian areas - which is itself a war crime. (because it put civilians at risk.)
The article you linked is highly speculative and written by someone with a vested interest in criticizing Jabari's assassination. Jabari's death basically cuts Baskin out of the loop, so I'm not convinced Baskin is free of any conflict of interest here. Baskin has no idea how Jabari would have responded to the draft of his deal, but it certainly serves a political purpose to imply Israel deliberately murdered the one man who could negotiate and enforce a cease-fire.
Or, you know, it was simply an attack on a military target (given that he was second-in-command of Hamas' military wing), as well as retribution for the kidnapping and detention of Gilad Shalit.
It strikes me as much more likely that the Israeli government simply didn't care whether Jabari was interested in a cease-fire. Once this conflict flared up, his fate was sealed.
Check out my world simulator thingy.
I have no doubt that most of the powers-that-be know where the missiles are from and who's generally responsible, but by the same time, right now one could look at the situation that there are multiple players that Islamic Jihad could get their missiles from, and stopping Iran from providing relatively unsophisticated missiles won't stop the militants from lobbing explosives into Israel, and also right now the weapons are unsophisticated enough to make defense fairly practical and to make damage fairly small. Escalating by attacking other countries in the region could result in more sophisticated missiles or in ground war.
At the moment the material cost and the cost in lives is fairly small, and steps to address it on multiple fronts are being tried. If other efforts fail then perhaps there could be an escalation to a more active war, but for the moment I'd rather they try other methods first.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
You can also look up "anti-Semitic" in dictionary.com or any other standard reference and see that in the word specifically denotes hostility or hatred of Jews. A lot of people are genuinely confused by this terminology, ...
In particular you and the GGP. The palestinian terrorist and murderer of Israeli civilians Yasser Arafat famous corrected someone who tried to label him an anti-semite, pointing out that Palestinians are also semites.
I would say you're the one confused on this. "Semitic" covers a broader range of peoples
... but you can be pretty sure that when someone argues that "anti-Seimtism" is a meaningless term, ...
Straw man. The GP did not do so, all he said was that the wrong adjective was used. That fact remains that palestinians consider themselves semites.
Reading isn't your strong suit, and I know perfectly well what "Semite" and "anti-Semite" mean. Nor have I said GP (now GGP) has said anything different.
... even after having been shown a the dictionary definition and history of the term, it is pretty good evidence that he or she is an anti-Semite.
To which you just provided an example, namely Arafat.
Obviously someone who points out that palestinians are also semites must be a nazi. Your logic is breathtaking ... as in people are laughing at you so hard that they can not breathe.
Not my logic. When you get a break from laughing out loud and take a breath, go back and re-read your post.
Try not fighting back when your land is illegally occupied and your civilians are bombed with massively superior fire power - there's not a country or group of people in the world that wouldn't react the same (even the French did! :P) - ironically I would put the US at the very top of the 'kick-back attitude' list.
You make it sound like Hamas is the only faction in the Gaza Strip, but there are actually other even more militant subgroups that Hamas does not have control over. Note how many more rockets are now flying at Israel, and how they're getting close to Tel Aviv. I don't necessarily believe Hamas was endorsing the launching of rockets during ceasefires.
For that matter, I've also heard (with no verification) that Hamas will intentionally shoot rockets into open space in Israel, so that they can satisfy the more militant subgroups while also not pushing Israel too hard to retaliate.
:(){
Savored is your word, you are projecting. I don't savor the right to defend myself. But I won't give it up. That said, it is satisfying to kick the shit out of someone who has been fucking with you for months and who finally does something aggressive enough to rate an ass kicking. The main satisfaction is knowing that he won't fuck with you again (they _never_ do if you beat them hard enough, if they do, it's a sign you were too light).
Like I said, you missed many important life lessons. Too late now.
I don't believe your school was full of civilized little shits. You just hid behind the teachers skirts.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
A laser would seem to be better suited for an interceptor device. CO2-based lasers are quite powerful. Why are still not used for defense?
It's just intercepted more missiles in the last week then the previous 2 years combine. Since there are only 4 Iron Dome Batteries operational, with a 5th that just came on line 11/17/2012, and 2 more scheduled for 2013, I always thought Hamas could overwhelm Iron Dome. It seems Hamas has tried that but Israel UAV's have been able to spot these attempts and that's where the IAF comes in. They are able to use their Air Power to bomb these attempts before any missiles are launched. Each Iron Dome Battery cost around $37million US Dollars with the Tamir missiles around $40,000 each. I feel this has just been a test by Hamas to see the capabilities of Iron Dome. They probably realized they lost this round days ago but are unable to stop now without loosing face. (A very important point in the Arab world.) A truce will be worked out and Hamas will re-evaluate where they must be in 2, 5, 10 years from now before they can attempt a successful attack. Of course Israel won't sit still during that time. All just very, very sad.
... the innocent civilian refugees dying in Gaza...
...and you can tell they're "innocent civilians" because they are not dressed in official Hamas army uniforms...
And how are they not? The Palestinians are the direct descendants of the Semitic people who have lived in the area for thousands of years. Israel was founded to house Jewish immigrants moving in from Europe and the US in the mid-20th century. You may not like the fact that the offspring of the inhabitants of the former Roman province of Judea who stayed in place have adopted different religions than those who went into exile in ~70AD, but it doesn't change the fact that those who stayed are indigenous to the land. The idea that Israel "belongs" to a group of people who lived elsewhere for thousands of years is ludicrous. Are you going to give USA back to the natives? Spain back to the Moors? Britain back to the Celts? Hungary back to the Huns? How far do you go? Should we clone Neandertals and give them most of Europe and Asia?
Link to the wiki article? I couldn't find it. I'm also curious to know what the Israeli casualty count is. I'm betting it's in the single digits.
I did find these:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/nov/19/gaza-israel-verified-incidents-mapped
I'm not sure about this one, but figured I'd include it.
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2012.html
My problem is that the terrorists are firing completely uncontrolled rockets. If they're lucky, the rockets will hit the broad side of a barn. It would be comical if they weren't managing to kill people. The Israelis on the other hand are using top of the line ordinance to perform devastating targeted attacks.
I admit I was exaggerating by calling it carpet-bombing, but the whole affair is still very one sided, and assuming your numbers are accurate, are still killing more civilians than terrorists. And how many surviving family members of those killed become so overwhelmed by grief that they strike back at Israel, repeating the circle ad nauseum?
My point is that with this technology, Israel has the opportunity to stop the war cold. They can prevent militant attacks from hitting them, which means they no longer have to retaliate. They can just sot down, cross their arms, and watch as the terrorists flail uselessly. After letting them terrorists do that for a while they can stand up again and say, "Look. It's gone. Can we please stop now?"
But I'm afraid that won't happen.
The one I've been using is Cuba.
If Cuba started launching rockets into US territory. I'd like everyone here to picture how "proportional" a response they could expect from the USA.
Computer assisted snipers strategically spread throughout gaza. If they have the technology to shoot down rockets mid-flight, then they have the technology to quickly determine their source. If they can do that fast enough, then they can:
a) record who fired the rocket, for evidence, before they can drop the casing and run
b) take them out
Why does Hamas have to do that before they hit the IDF, but the IDF doesnt have to do that before hitting Hamas?
Because Hamas attacked first or there was a clear and present danger provoking an Israeli attack (such as happened during the Six Days War in 1967).
Because Hamas isn't following the rules of war, I can't be bothered to be concerned about what happens to them or their supporters.
My comment was about the statement that Israel has a "right to retaliate". Which, I think, is very different from
saying that Israel has a "right to defend itself". I think countries, people, and even kids in kindergarten, have a right to defend themselves. Saying that someone has a right to retaliate is very different.
But, since I obviously lack the experience, could you please explain how you distinguish the agression of the ass kicker from that of the ass kickee? How come they "_never_ come back to fuck with you again"? Don't they see your agression also as a reason to retaliate, and finally kick your ass? Or is it that your ass kicking finally convinced them that they were right and you were wrong? Or maybe you were just stronger than everybody else?
n/t
Except one believes in one flavour of invisible sky-fairy, and the other believes in another. As we know, that perfectly reasonable grounds for war, and bad behaviour of all kinds generally.
I was going by a translation of a fighter's words who was interviewed by Al Jazeera. Obviously, he can't speak for every fighter.
False.
Neither is Israel.
A most inhumane position. If you must apply it, you should at least do so consistently, and care nothing for what happens to either side.
Personally I am concerned for all unjustly harmed regardless of which semitic language they speak.
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Or they are considered freedom fighters if you agree if with their cause. You just named the Americans in the American Civil war terrorists.
Except that the first image is wrong..... Jordan was part of Palestine also.
Don't worry.
Judging by the state of our military hardware the rockets will either fall apart after launch, blow up on the launchpad or lose some parts and fall on a big city.
I've got better things to do tonight than die.
Reading isn't your strong suit, and I know perfectly well what "Semite" and "anti-Semite" mean. Nor have I said GP (now GGP) has said anything different.
Or perhaps writing is not your strong suit. Your post absolutely gave the impression that you were disagreeing with the previous post and suggesting that it was racist.
To which you just provided an example, namely Arafat.
Arafat described himself as being anti-zionist, claiming that as a semite himself his is not anti-semite. One could also reasonably describe him as anti-Israeli or anti-jewish. You are hanging your argument on an obviously flawed definition, a definition that embeds a certain amount of imprecision into itself. When using the word in the context of a European or a Persian then the imprecision is somewhat tolerable, but unworkable in the context of a fellow semitic.
i hope they're not using Siemens PLCs in this Iron Dome thing.
I remember the TV pictures of Gaza and other Palestinian women and children dancing in the streets and rejoicing after the 9/11 attacks. Also over half of those so-called Palestinians in Gaza voted for those Hamas terrorists. Therefore, if half of the civilian population of Gaza were to perish it would be well deserved. They voted into power a bunch of terrorists who had sworn to destroy Israel at whatever cost. Too bad there is not a way to target only those who voted for the terrorists. At least half of the people in Gaza are not “innocent” bystanders. They actively participated. Setting up a rocket launchers in school yards and next to hospitals is criminal, but is seldom mentioned by western pro-Arab media.
No it doesn't. Lebensraum translates into 'living space' not buffer zone.
http://www.zombieapocalypse.tv/
... with the notion being that "You'll get this back when you've learned your lesson".
Never giving it back would be an excellent lesson. Losing wars tend to result in things like territory loss. Giving invaders a "freebie" is a horrible idea.
The world wouldn't stand for the US invading Canada.
Just like the entire middle east would swamp Israel if they tried to occupy Palestine.
In ancient times, there was an attempt to exterminate all Jews. You can read about how that turned out in the biblical book of Esther. In modern times, the Nazis had their final solution and the Holocaust attempting to wipe the Jews out. Next in the parade of history we have the Islamists that tried to exterminate Israel in 1948, 1967 and 1973. It did not work then and it is not going to work now. In fact it will never work. God writes history in advance. Read Isaiah 17, where it clearly says that Damascus will be destroyed. After the war chronicled in advance in Ezekiel 38 and 39, the war of Armageddon takes place just north of Jerusalem. It is the final war of humanity. In the Bible it is written that ALL armies of ALL nations will participate and be destroyed by an invading army from outer space, namely the armies of heaven from God. After having cleansed the world from evil, Jesus Christ will rule over the whole earth. Jerusalem will be the capital city of the world.
A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
The West Bank isn't a "buffer zone". That's the reason why Israeli settlements there are such a big bone of contention.
Having a foreign army occupy your land and harrass its people is unpleasant, sure, and likely to stir a certain degree of resentment. But eventually, most people are able to work through it and relations can be normalised. See Britain and Ireland, for example.
Having a foreign army occupy your land and foreign civilians move in and take it over - now, that's a completely different proposition. Now, you're actually losing land - the ultimate "finite resource". Where are you going to live?
The standard Israeli response is "There are lots of Arab countries they could move to". Now try to imagine how, say, America would feel if Mexico occupied Texas and drove out all the American inhabitants, on the basis that "there are plenty of other states they could move to". I'm guessing most Americans wouldn't think that was reasonable.
Well, if the US sent their military into Vancouver for "security" reasons, throwing out all the Canadians who lived there and allowed US citizens to build homes and "settle" the area and considering the US's superior military, I wouldn't blame Canada in the least for shooting rockets over the border.
Exactly. At first, when you learn about a few Arab-instigated wars Israel has had to fight off, you have a little sympathy for their argument that they need Gaza, Golan, and the West Bank as buffer zones as well as a little punishment upon their aggressors, with the notion being that "You'll get this back when you've learned your lesson".
But then you find out that they're displacing the people living in those areas and then just gifting that land to Israeli settlers and you're like "WTF?!?! How are they ever going to undo that? You can't just go to the settlers and say 'Okay. Time to come back home, we are giving that land back to the Palestinians...'".
So, yeah... when Israeli's call those areas "buffer zones" or anything implying that they're temporary for as long as their neighbors are hostile toward them, I don't believe them for a second.
And yet, Israel has done exactly that. They tore down and removed settlements from Sinai when they returned it to Egypt, and they did the same with Gaza when they withdrew. The settlements are a cruel bargaining chip, but a bargaining chip nonetheless in the end. They are leverage, but ultimately, precedent shows they are all negotiable.
You don't think they've come up with delayed launch mechanisms so they can vacate the area hours or days in advance?
if it actually works but only stops 90% of attacks, why don't hamas fire 10 rockets straight at the iron dome.
There are no “innocent” civilians in Gaza. They voted for Hamas and now they have to suffer the consequences. The USA will have to suffer the results from whom they voted for also. The law of reaping and sowing has not been repealed.
If you want an excuse to wipe out the walled ghetto of Palestine, then all you need to do is make sure you endlessly torment the target population enough so that these kinds of population-impressing but toothless attacks are forthcoming, (hell, if provoking and arming through third parties some useful idiots on the other side of the wall isn't working well enough, why not just send in some Mossad agents to launch the missiles themselves? It's got "Jewish Mentality" written all over it.)
Gotta keep the fireworks display going in order to justify the psychopathic destruction of Palestine.
Why? Did I encourage my son to blow up a shopping mall? Did I provide my neighbor with the bombs to do it? Did I myself shoot up a movie theater? Or did call the police and tell them that someone was going to do those things? Because, you know, in Palestine you get a death sentence for turning in mass murderers of civilians.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Because Hamas isn't following the rules of war
Neither is Israel.
Then show the evidence for this claim. Don't just say it. Keep in mind that because Hamas isn't following the rules of war as specified by the Geneva Conventions, then they waive most of the protections granted by the Geneva Conventions.
No, I didn't get the order wrong. Weapons WERE smuggled into Gaza. That's why attacks out of Gaza are so prolific. So yeah, they blockade a territory used to attack them in order to prevent weapons from coming in. The odd part is that they still supply their electricity. I mean, I can't think of any other nation which out of humanitarian reasons would supply electricity to their active enemy in war. Can you?
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Of course they say it works, even if it doesn't it could lead to less rockets being fired at them.
Just like the British reports of bomb damage in WW2.
that translates to Lebensraum.
Only if it grows a lot faster than this particular instance has.
And the Sinai. Wasn't pretty in either instance. And I thought they didn't let anyone settle in the Golan?
Justified anger != moral high ground
The PLO/PA under Arafat made the choices that lead to that situation. Go back and read through the mid-late 90's history of the conflict, and especially what went on in 2000. It's almost entirely a one-sided history of violent Palestinian provocation followed by increasingly violent Israeli response, not the other way around.
"In our school, when a kid gets punched, he gains the right to retaliate."
I wish I had gone to that kind of school. Not only would I have not gotten in trouble for punching back, I might have gotten punched back myself a few times and learned faster to stop picking on people.
Was it [USA] at fault that Soviets were trying to place missiles in Cuba? No. The Soviets were at fault.
Perhaps you should read about the Turkish missile crisis. The US was putting missiles in Turkey, within striking distance of Moscow, before Soviets missiles were put in Cuba. The Soviets were playing tit-for-tat. So, yes, the USA in a very real sense was at fault.
Or if you don't care who's indigenous. What's so important about ancestry, anyway?
Don't give me lip you fucking fat boy. We, the Jewish people, own your fucking country. You have what you have because we allow it. Now fuck off and watch the media we feed you to keep you where we want you.
Just stating the obvious here, but this AC is definitely NOT jewish.
On the contrary, the moment an advanced weapon is fired into Israel, the army will have to go back into Gaza to find and destroy these weapons.
The "palestinians" are not even an ethnicity, they are simply arabs just like the ones in Jordan.
The name of "Palestine" comes from when the Romans renamed Judea to Philistina to remove the identity link of Judea with the jewish people.
If you want to go back in history and claim that the land there belongs to some ethnic group, do yourself a favor and inform yourself better.
It's not really unreasonable for them to want a buffer zone they control access to around their main populated region.
And then, it's not unreasonable for them to want to build settlements there. After all they're growing, and there's all that land just sitting there. Hey wait, now there's no buffer zone! Oh well, it's not unreasonable for them to want a buffer zone. Repeat as needed.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
But then you find out that they're displacing the people living in those areas and then just gifting that land to Israeli settlers and you're like "WTF?!?! How are they ever going to undo that? You can't just go to the settlers and say 'Okay. Time to come back home, we are giving that land back to the Palestinians...'".
Mmm perhaps like this?
That's an interesting point. Many of the blond hair, blue eyed Israeli citizens hail from Germany, Poland, Russia, the U.S. Because they are currently Jewish, they have rights.
But those brown people, the Christians and Muslims, could they not have also been Jews too once? Jews that later converted to Christianity and Islam. The original people that lived in the land called Israel, 2000+ years ago.
Look around the neighborhood (Leb, Egypt,, Syria, etc.), they're all pretty brown too.
Just thinking...
Not all jews are white, there are black jews too and they are treated the same way with the same rights.
In 1991 there was a military operation in which 34 israeli airplanes were sent to rescue the Ethiopian jews from Eritrean and Tigrean rebels, they transported more than 14,000 black jews to Israel, in my opinion that is quite impressive. I know if I was in a similar situation my own country wouldn't move a finger for me.
Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon
No, but justified self-defense is a whole different story. Unfortunately, the media is so pro-Israeli that it it is impossible to have the actions of the Palestinians seen in light of self-defense. Every military action by them is labelled as "terrorist aggression", every military action by Israel is labelled "justified pre-emptive strike".
Let's not forget that this current round of bombing was started when Ahmed al-Jabari was assassinated, despite the fact that he was about to sign (the very morning he was killed, in fact) a cease fire agreement he and his Israeli counterpart had been working on for some time. Being about the only man on the Palestinian side with the respect of the actual soldiers on the ground needed to actuall give effect to a cease fire, one can only wonder why Israel killed him, and at that precise moment in time.
On Wednesday morning, letting him get to work like any other morning would have resulted in a long-term ceasefire plan, designed and agreed to by both Hamas leaders as well as Israeli government officials. Instead, they blew up his car on the way to work, triggering the current round of fighting.
I hate printers.
"You make it sound like Hamas is the only faction in the Gaza Strip, but there are actually other even more militant subgroups that Hamas does not have control over. Note how many more rockets are now flying at Israel, and how they're getting close to Tel Aviv. I don't necessarily believe Hamas was endorsing the launching of rockets during ceasefires."
It doesn't really matter, if he has the power to stop launches on demand like he claims, then he has the power to make sure there are no launches full stop. Either they're lying about what he could really actually achieve or they're admitting that the flip side of the argument is that he also allowed rocket fire to happen in the first place. It's got to be one or the other.
Also, whilst you're right, there are other militant groups there, some far more hard line, ultimately Hamas is the elected representative of the people there, and is by far the strongest armed group. As such, they could easily incapacitate these groups, or force them into their own ranks if they so chose to. In Gaza, you can only operate with Hamas' permission.
If they take the glory for this guy of being able to stop rocket fire the hard fact is that it means it's also on them when it starts. There's no getting away from that, the original post was a highly partisan one-sided peice of propaganda and nothing more.
When are the Palestinians going to explicitly recognize Israel's right to exist?
When Israel recognises Palestines right to exist?
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Yes, of course. Clearly, the righteous response is to commit genocide.
Anger has its limits too; be sure you do not turn into a monster while pretending to be righteous. That only gives everyone an rather justified excuse to destroy you instead.
> You have to see the difference.
I certainly see the difference. Unfortunately, I'm starting to think a lot of the rest of the world, and especially quite a few in the Middle East aren't interested in logic or reasoning. They're not interested in righteousness or fighting evil, wherever it may be, especially their own heart.
Instead, they think along the old ways, ways that have been for 10,000 years. My side is always right, the enemy and the foreigner is always evil. Whoever is strong is exalted as our leader and the weak are trodden down as useless.
There are those who don't think this way, but for the ones that do, there can be no 'negotiations' with.
As a Canadian, I would blame Canadians for shooting rockets at American civilians across the border in that scenario. What a way to lose all sympathy.
Instead, I would invade Vancouver unarmed and lie down and allow them to kill us. That's what real martyrdom means; letting others kill you for your beliefs, not murder-suicides. Gandhi was successful against the British with these methods since the British people had a conscience. Canadians would be successful against Americans with these methods too for similar reasons. And so would Palestinian people if they used these methods for exactly the same reasons.
No, Hamas is not interested in 'victory.' They're interested in maintaining their power, influence and the flow of money from Iran. And damned be all who they can use to get their way. Especially the poor little Palestinian children.
The two middle images in this diagram are probably accurate, but the first and last are nothing more than propaganda: On the left you "see" that in 1946 99% of the land of the British Mandate of Palestine was "Palestenian" (i.e., Arab). It is more accurate to say that 90% of it was *empty*, without any Arabs or Jews - most of it being desert. On the right, you see most of the West Bank as "white", i.e., Israeli land. Why? The West Bank is definitely *not* Israeli land, and Israel never annexed it. In Gaza, the graph is even less accurate, because it depicts as "israeli" land that Israel already withdrew from (after 2000), and the entire Gaza, up to the last square inch, is not controlled by the Palestenians (or actually, by a Hamas dictatorship which took over the young Palestenian democracy).
Yes, damn those evil Finnish warmongers for their 1939 invasion of Russia!
How does the number of dead say anything about who the aggressor is? Can't one side be both the aggressor and a loser? And isn't it typical for one side to be both the aggressor and have no regard for the life of its own people?
In World War 2, Germany had 7 million dead, while the US and UK together had only 1 million dead. Does this prove the US and UK were the aggressors in that war?
You seem to have left out the US and Israel funding Fatah to wage a proxy war against Hamas (democratically elected, by the corrupt system that the US and Israel pushed)
At the risk of invoking Godwin's law, Hamas was democratically elected just like Hitler was elected in 1932: Both got an edge in one election by threatening the population, and after winning the election immediately set out to destroy their opposition and the young democracy, making those elections the last ones ever. The "democratic elections" which the Hamas won were 7 years ago, and unless there is a coup d'etat in Gaza, there will never be another elections there.
I don't know what a "computer assisted sniper" is, and even if such a thing existed, how exactly do you spread military equipment in enemy territory without the enemy destroying it once it's left there unattended?
And back to reality, what do you do when the enemy is shooting rockets from within schools and city rooftops? How do you "take them out" while guaranteeing the safety of the civilians they are hiding behind?
So the Palestinians launch missiles at Isreal and you are upset that Isreal is pissed off about it and launches counter attacks? If Canada started launching rockets at the US, I would expect us to invade and conquer them in short order.
Well, if the US sent their military into Vancouver for "security" reasons, throwing out all the Canadians who lived there and allowed US citizens to build homes and "settle" the area and considering the US's superior military, I wouldn't blame Canada in the least for shooting rockets over the border.
Are you not aware that in 2005, that's 7 years ago (!), Israel completely withdrew from Gaza? For 7 years, not one square inch of Gaza has been occupied by Israel. There has not been one Israeli settler left in Gaza in 7 years. So how does your comparison make sense?
Some of what you're saying makes sense about the West Bank, but not about Gaza. And remember this war only involves Gaza, not the west bank.
Israel has offered the Golan in return for peace several times, only to be turned down. Perhaps some day an agreement with Syria can be reached, but until that day Israelis can and do live on that land.
I'm surprised Palestine has survived as long as it has. Bit by bit, Palestinians are being forced from their homes as Israel expands its lebensraum.
The Palestinians are defending themselves against an invading army.
This is propaganda (and your use of the Nazi German term lebensraum doesn't help much). Not one square inch of Gaza is occupied by Israelis since 7 years ago when Israel unilaterally withdrawn from Gaza, and also moved all its "settlers" out of there. At the moment there are no Israeli or Jews living in Gaza. Noone has been forced out of their homes in Gaza ever.
In the West Bank (which is not involved in the current war), the situation is more problematic, and there are indeed Israeli settlers living there, but it's not an ongoing process as you depict this - the Israeli settlements aren't really expanding for the last 30 years, beyond very minor expansions. Moreover, the settlers expand to open spaces - not by evicting Palestenians from their home. I'm assuming the evictions you refer to are from the 1948 war. This was over 60 years ago, it's not an ongoing process as you describe it!
Yeah it's not like Israel is also knowingly breaking the Geneva Convention...
The settlements in the West Bank is a blatant violation of the Geneva Convention, such actions are explicitly forbidden.
Using White Phosphorus is also explicitly forbidden, which Israel has been seen using in the 2008 conflict.
Collective Punishment is also explicitly forbidden, such as for example bulldozing the houses of know suicide bombers as a revenge for their actions. Any and all bombings that are preceded by leaflet notices that bombings take place also is nothing but collective punishment because any military importance will be long gone by the time the bombs arrive, the only outcome will be the pointless destruction of the homes of innocent civilians.
It is also explicitly forbidden to use indiscriminate weapons such as missiles, rockets and bombs in densely populated civilian areas(both Hamas and Israel is guilty of this but Israel does it on a scale 10 times larger than anything Hamas can even hope to accomplish)
I'd say that the greater sin definitely lies on Israel because as a democracy and a working nation they have a greater responsibility, they actually signed and ratified the Geneva convention, also Israel is occupying legitimate Palestinian territory, therefore the armed resistance of Hamas is both righteous and warranted, I might not agree with their methods but the means they have available are limited. Israel is the aggressor, they are an invader, and as long as they are occupying territory they have no reasonable claim of ever acting in self defense.
Yes, they screwed up with their settlement program. They should have cleared everyone out of the occupied territories and made them proper no man's lands.
It's funny, I was having this discussion with the daughter of Greek expats yesterday morning. Her parents were forcibly moved as part of the population exchange between Greece and Turkey. It wasn't nice for them to lose their home but in the end it worked out best for everyone.
People think of the current situation between the Israelis and Palestinians as a result of Israel's occupation though. It's not. The Palestinians (and others) were bombing Israel before 1967. The only difference is that Israel can control the flow of weapons into Palestine moderately better now.
I do not condone the actions of Hamas but lets face it, Israel doesn't really give anyone due process either before their drone, helicopter or air strikes. If you wanna look at the death tolls Israel causes something on the scale of >10 times more deaths and injuries(and yes those numbers matter A LOT more than the number of weapons fired). Plus Israel is an invader, they are the aggressor, and are occupying land that legitimately belongs to the Palestinians, they have the right to resist occupation with the means they have at hand, Israel as an invader has no credible claim of self defense until they withdraw to the borders outlined in the 1947 UN partition plan.
"No, but America did blockade Cuba. Was it at fault that Soviets were trying to place missiles in Cuba? No. The Soviets were at fault."
Ah, the jolly game of 'they-did-it-first'...
That was an answer to the US putting their missiles in Turkey right next to the Soviet border. Your turn.
I doubt this system works as claimed. The numbers in various articles quote different percentage success rates. And then they say it will only fire when the system determines if the targetted area is populated. Sounds like this is a tactic to inflate success numbers when really it fails to operate. Further, these are largely funded with the help of US funds and yet the US has no information about the technology. What is this? This all just sounds like a PR mechanism designed to garner more funding. Ill believe it when it is tested by multiple countries... until then, Ill remember that there is a war going on and news from the front is often propiganda.
There were 250,000 people in Gaza in 1969 and 1.5 Million today. It's pretty obvious they don't want to murder everyone in Gaza .
WMDs today aren't really nukes. There are genetic weapons, chemical weapons, biological weapons, psytronic weapons, cybernetic weapons, laser weapons, all which are more dangerous than nuke and all paradigm shifting.
Nukes were state of the art in the 1940s-50s. It's 2012 and now the weapons are like nukes only invisible or so secret people don't know what they are to recognize whether or not it's being used. Russia has a zombie-gun weapon now for which there are no defenses against. Let's also not rule out lasers and other space weapons which could defeat a lot of these so called missile defense systems with ease. We have to worry about clone armies, cybernetic warfare, and other exotic weapons. Fortunately Iran doesn't have these weapons yet but I do think they have a satellite in space and probably are smart enough to figure out how to put weapons into space or just a guidance system from space. Missile defense systems wont work in an actual war, it will take more but that is my opinion and I don't know what different governments have I only know it wont work against China, Russia or Iran.
Nuclear attacks aren't actually very useful in war. They destroy everything, not just the enemy. The best weapons in war destroy infrastructure while not taking out much else. An EMP type of bomb would be more damaging than a nuke even though a nuke would take more lives because EMP would destroy electronic equipment and infrastructure but not to the point that the enemy couldn't take the territory and use it.
" It's not really unreasonable for them to want a buffer zone they control access to around their main populated region.
It's not a buffer zone if they move in their own citizens.
The rockets started before the blockade, and in fact the blockade was one of the ways to attempt and reduce the smuggling of rockets into Gaza.
Gaza has a border with Egypt, which Israel has no control over, so there is at least one other party that must participate in the blockade for it to be effective, what is Egypts reason to do so?
As for the rockets, they started from 2001 and were fired since continually, even after Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, and before the blockade was enacted a year later.
According to that, after Israel has fully withdrawn, and before the blockade, Palestinians fired 1,255 rockets and mortars into Israel. What was their (and yours) excuse then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#Effects
0. I did not say that Israel wasn't war-torn. However, it would be rather ridiculous to compare the level of devastation to that of Gaza.
And you somehow think that Hamas didn't know that before it attacked. In a way, you're far worse than the Israeli. The Israeli know they are dealing with adults capable of thinking this through, and they respond accordingly. You, on the other hand, think these people are children that can't think for themselves, that somehow don't realize that they're starting a war.
1. The stronger, richer party ALWAYS have a far bigger responsibility.
That's just stupid. So if you do anything to make the life of a street beggar (plenty of those in America) less than ideal, you can be blamed for that ? You are certainly the richer, stronger party and you could do something. And of course, the mere fact that they exist, and that you're richer is proof that you're "holding them down", right ?
This is a moronic way to think about the world.
2. And how about NOT slowly invading your neighbours? Could that perhaps cool stuff down?
3. So you mean that the Jews have a right to live and need for more room. I recognize that reasoning. Now who was it that said that? Can't remember? Anyway, I think he called it "Lebensraum", or something to that effect. Probably was a nice guy, too.
He did not say that. He only said he wanted to keep what they have, where he has lived since he was born. Which I believe translates to the Allied position, not the Axis one.
But wait ! I know ! Let's make people leave areas they have conquered ... of course ... muslims conquered palestine too (and Jews didn't, read up on history, they actually bought it). For that matter Europeans conquered Europe, Americans conquered America, ... so let's force all muslims into the tiny town they originate from, and let's move the entirety of Europe into Mongolia ! Because that "is more fair".
Sounds stupid, doesn't it ? That's because it is stupid.
4.
Why can't the Palestinians go live in some other part of the Muslim world? 1.2 billion of them and they can't find homes? Jews want a homeland too, and Israel is ours. They have enough fucking countries of their own. It's not our fault if none of them can put together a decent economy or political structure. Saudi Arabia has plenty of space, and the government there gets just as much support from the US as we do.
Muslims just want the Palestinians to suffer so they have someone to claim they are fighting for when they blow up towers in New York.
Have nothing to say about this, really. Just wanted to repeat it because it is so incredibly stupid and uninsightful. :-)
It's also true. The vast, vast majority of Palestinians are immigrants (this is beyond obvious if you visit one of their towns. Btw, do that. Not at night, and not in Gaza though. You might develop an informed opinion). Egypt, not Israel, closes off the border, and not due to Israeli pressure. Saudi arabia regularly uses Gaza and the westbank to dump refugees arriving on their shores (ever wonder why a country that lies less than 100 km from Africa seems to receive exactly zero refugees from Africa when Italy, 400 km away from the nearest shore, receives over 1000 monthly ?)
Also, Palestine receives > $1000 per head in foreign aid per month, close to $3.5 billion per year, from the West alone (and I'm sure Saudi Arabia matches that). They receive this because of their wars, their terrorism, their attacks, because of the rockets, and because the muslim-everyone else conflicts they constantly cause. That is their economy, that is their o
I'm really sick of hearing this shit. Why don't they just obliterate each other already and we can all go on with our lives. I wish some aliens would just step in an nuke the entire region to make it uninhabitable. No one gets the land and no ones to blame. Everyone is happy. I'm tired of hearing this Isreal vs Palastine shit.
Because 'The' Iron Dome is actually several trucks parked in several locations and Hamas probably doesn't even know where all those locations are. Not to mention, a missile coming at it, head on, would probably be one of the easiest to shoot down.
Rocket attacks started November 9th, five days before Jabari's assassination on the 14th.
Wasn't Jabari was the leader of the Hamas military organization? That would mean he himself ordered his men to fire the rockets starting on the 9th, breaking the then-existing cease-fire and starting the whole military escalation.
How does the fact that Jabari implemented cease-fires in the past balance against the fact that he unilaterally broke a cease-fire this time? Also, if he was eager to sign a new cease-fire, why did he break the peace in the first place?