Slashdot Mirror


Israeli Infrastructure Proves Too Strong For Anonymous

Mephistophocles writes "Ever since the beginning of Operation Pillar of Defense, hackers have been working overtime to strike a blow against the Israeli government's computer systems, Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz said Sunday. No fewer than 44 million attacks have been recorded since the operation began five days ago — with nearly all of them failing, thanks to the recent strengthening of computer defense systems in Israel. Speaking at a special press conference at the Government Computing Center in Jerusalem about the cyber war against Israel that has accompanied Hamas's rocket attacks, Steinitz said that hackers 'are trying to disable the symbols of Israeli sovereignty, to enter web sites and install anti-Israel content, thus compromising information and data and damaging the government's ability to serve the public.' Most of the attacks, he said, were against government sites, like the Prime Minister's Office site, and security-related sites, such as that of the Home Front Command, the body charged with informing Israelis on how to protect themselves in the event of an attack. Out of those 44 million-plus attacks on government and defense related sites, said Steinitz, only one succeeded – partially. One site, which he did not name, was 'wobbly for a few minutes,' but quickly recovered. Even though the government has been successful in warding off hack attacks, Steinitz said that government sites were fully backed up and mirrored, meaning that they could be replaced by a duplicate site instantly if the original site were compromised."

569 comments

  1. The sure are great at Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    That's for certain.

    1. Re:The sure are great at Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's for certain.

      Nah, they're actually pretty shit at it. My news feed was filled with images of poor Palestinians getting bombed and injured by Israeli counterattacks while the damage done by Hamas backed by the Muslim Brotherhood was blacked out by the media. Most people see it merely as Israeli aggression, like it's a crime that they should protect their borders from forces that would only find happiness if the region was a smoking crater.

      A little bit like Obama's cover ups and half truths not being nearly as important in the media as "I love Big Bird" and some boneheaded "legitimate rape" comment that Romney didn't even say.

    2. Re:The sure are great at Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hush now, around here we just pretend that Fox broadcasts lies rather than documented events and accurate predictions.

    3. Re:The sure are great at Propaganda by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Who are? Jews or Anon?

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    4. Re:The sure are great at Propaganda by drkim · · Score: 1

      ...some boneheaded "legitimate rape" comment that Romney didn't even say.

      Er, I don't think anybody thinks that Romney said that. It was Republican Todd Akin.

    5. Re:The sure are great at Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When it comes to lies, Israelis are experts at using their control of the US govt and media.Even a dumb fuck like you should get that without an explanation

    6. Re:The sure are great at Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      gmhowell's absolutely a dumb fuck. He posts 1 line replies constantly to gain karma points to troll and abuse the moderation system here and thinks we don't notice it. He does so even days later after everyone's left a thread. gmhowell's just a miserable little troll, nothing more.

    7. Re:The sure are great at Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More gmhowell 1 line posts to karma whore to gain points to mod his other registered user names up with here and to mod down his opponents with. How see through and transparently obvious could this troll get? He even posts days later into threads this way to do so.

  2. Screenshot or it didn't happen by hawks5999 · · Score: 1

    Sounds like first class COINTELPRO.

    1. Re:Screenshot or it didn't happen by Aardpig · · Score: 1, Troll

      Lox Bagels or GTFO!

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    2. Re:Screenshot or it didn't happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like first class PARANOID EXTREMIST:

    3. Re:Screenshot or it didn't happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they had been victorious: "As you can PLAINLY see, the forces of Justice(tm) and Righteousness(tm) on the internet have succeeded once again, as it always has been and always will be, as we are Just and Right. The all-knowing might and goodness of THE PEOPLE will never fail or be proven wrong, ever. Ever."

      Since they instead failed: "NO. WRONG. This is obviously a FRAUD by THE BAD GUYS. The all-knowing might and goodness of THE PEOPLE can never fail, so this story was a complete LIE. NEVER. If they know what's good for them, they'll give me all their logs. As a start. You'd BETTER get ready to physically ship me ALL your servers, complete with all encryption keys and administrative passwords, so I CAN CHECK FOR MYSELF. But since you're too much of COWARDS to do that, all of eternity will know you're LIARS and FRAUDS and WE WON AND YOU LOST JUST ADMIT IT YOU LOST WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH."

      Funny, really. I thought most of the tech world was mocking the Republicans for just such an attitude post-election. Were you just worried that someone else perfected your own techniques and might use them against you?

    4. Re:Screenshot or it didn't happen by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say first class. While I think Anonymous is really overhyped here, it does seem resistant to cointelpro. First off because cointelpro tactics weren't designed for internet groups or organizations. Second because they are, to a degree, amorphous. Saying "Ha ha, we withstood your attacks!" isn't going to discourage anonymous, it's going to invite more attacks. If Israel actually is making up attacks that didn't happen, all the moreso.

    5. Re:Screenshot or it didn't happen by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      Lox Bagels

      Hamantashen would be more appropriate in this case.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  3. Should probably keep quiet about this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Down in 3, 2 1 ...

  4. Congratulations Israel by Spy+Handler · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    you have won the cyber security warz. Now how about being a gracious winner and stop oppressing the Palestinians in real life?

    1. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [citation needed]

    2. Re:Congratulations Israel by operagost · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why don't stop being ignorant of the fact that Hamas' leaders have made it clear that they want Israel destroyed and all ethnic Jews eliminated? Why don't you stop being ignorant of the fact that Hamas has been initiated this exchange since they acquired Iranian weapons capable of reaching Tel Aviv months ago? Israel never fires the first shot, yet they are called the aggressors. I'm tired, TIRED of ignorant simpletons and their rhetoric.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    3. Re:Congratulations Israel by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      who's attacking whom, again?

      who sends rockets into soverign territory with the SOLE intention of harming ANYONE inside, civilian or otherwise?

      who has walked away from the bargaining table 100% of the time?

      who has, as its main goal in life, the complete destruction of all jews (not just israelis, look at the hamas charter if you are not sure.)

      now, troll, go back under the rock you hide behind.

      then again:

      The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    4. Re:Congratulations Israel by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      They have been gracious. They've repeated given up terroritory, repeatedly come to the table.

      The truth is, you hear 3-4 Israeli's killed, and 10-12 Palestinians. But how many of those Palestinians get up and walk afterwards?

      Google "Pallywood"
      https://www.google.com/search?q=pallywood&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=

    5. Re:Congratulations Israel by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Probably because they forced these people to live in walled off Areas and took long from farmers to build those walls.

      Sure Israel has done this to defend itself, but it chose the wrong path. Something like the marshall plan and a single state would have been a far better solution. Now Hamas and the Israeli far right parties need each other. This is how they both keep the power they have.

    6. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why don't you stop occupying other people's lands ?

    7. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Not this bigoted bullshit again. You think the oppression of Muslims is justified because their holy book is antisemitic. Guess what, the Christian Bible is just as bigoted. It justifies rape, murder, and slavery. It treats women less than dogs.

      But most Christians are reasonable people. They don't follow their hate filled book. Nor do most Muslims.

      Now Hamas is a hate filled group and their crimes are notorious. But that doesn't give you the right to use your bigotry to paint all Muslims as wanting to murder Jews. It is false. It is a lie. It is pure slander.

    8. Re:Congratulations Israel by Mashiki · · Score: 3, Informative

      You know, if the palestinians hadn't been sending suicide bombers, and putting snipers on hills/buildings the wall wouldn't exist at all. Notice how you don't hear about either one anymore except at checkpoints, where they try to sneak someone in, or they've strapped it to some poor retarded kid who could be easily manipulated. Luckily the half dozen times they tried they've managed to talk the kids out of blowing themselves up.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    9. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if Palestine would suddenly receive a couple of trillion dollars from the other Arab nations, then got nukes, occupied parts of Israel, cut off transportation from Israel to the outside world and told Israel to shut up and stop whining? That's how I see it. And I think that's how most people see the situation. Israel as a nation needs to stop being a big ugly dick.

    10. Re:Congratulations Israel by sd4f · · Score: 0

      How do you know they haven't sent in agent provocateurs? Their spy powers are pretty good, they keep on finding hamas people (and the whole family as well) in their homes when they bomb the house. The mossad is a very effective spy force, they've done heaps of black ops in the past, and i have a suspicion that this may be an effective way to "legally" murder people, spark controversy and all the while, appear like the victim, by guiding gullible hamas people into making the first visible attack.

    11. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you both live under a rock. Fuck all of your religions. As far as I am concerned, you should bomb each other to oblivion so the rest of the world can move on.

    12. Re:Congratulations Israel by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your comment is the kind of tit-for-tat that keeps this pointless conflict going.

      I acknowledged the reason for doing this, and I can even see why someone would make that choice. That does not mean I believe it to be an ideal solution.

    13. Re:Congratulations Israel by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Now how about being a gracious winner and stop oppressing the Palestinians in real life?

      Why don't stop being ignorant of the fact that Hamas' leaders have made it clear that they want Israel destroyed and all ethnic Jews eliminated?

      What does that have to do with anything, aside from muddying the issues? Hamas says mean things. Palestinians voted for them. Hamas attacked Israel. That doesn't mean that Israel isn't oppressing Palestinians, nor does it mean they would deserve anything Israel decides to do with them.

    14. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL@ Israel never fires the first shot, as if occupying a piece of land on the basis of religion and victimhood is not equvialent to "Firing the first shot"

    15. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      h4rr4r saying tit-for-tat argumentation is pointless.
      Oh boy everyone click on his comment history right now and enjoy yourselves.

    16. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL

      Who founded the group that went on to become Hamas as they wanted a counter weight to Fatah. OH Israel.

      Of course, you expect poor ppl to have guided rockets for precision attacks? They are fighting back any way they can.

      Walked away from the table? Israel has plenty of times, esp Netanyahu. Please pot calling kettle black there. There were plenty of times they could have gone back to the 67 borders with Fatah.

      Who shepherds and corrals people into areas resembling concentration camps while using the walk to go around and take the good land and says its not a land grab. Who just takes nomads lands and bulldozes their villages out the of way with no compensation. Israel talks about living in peace but they certainly don't show it and are bloody antagonistic.

      I don't think the Palestinians are without fault, but shipping over a bunch of European Jews and giving them Arab land because Europeans slaughtered them is a bit rich and then complaining about the Palestinians kicking up a fight when their land has been taken. Rich for the Israelites to be complaining when they got their independence through the bombing of civilian targets like King David Hotel.

      http://www.mcloughlinpost.com/FreeGazaAug92010.html

      Have a look out how much land the Palestinians have lost, then think this is only over a few generations at most. Then tell me you would take up arms or be tempted to if you Great Grandparent's land was taken, and then your Grandparent's, and now your Parent's land. Oh yeah I am sure you would all sit back and do nothing.

    17. Re:Congratulations Israel by Nrrqshrr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This whole story is basically like a feud that started long ago, between two families. And generations later, the kids will fight among themselves without even knowing what the reason behind the fight was.

      The obvious thing would be to get down to the table and talk about it, but guess what, those who are supposed to find a solution for this are none others than the guys who benefit the most from it (Hamas on one side, and the right wing Israelis).
      Acting like a bully won't make you look like you'r defending yourself for sure. And no matter how much of a threat those Palestinian missiles are, if each time your countryside gets hit by one, you answer with a couple of air raids and a dozen of children in the "Collateral Damage" list, you sure as hell can't expect the Palestinians (and by extension the rest of the Muslim world) to see as anything else other than a tyrant invader.

    18. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably because they forced these people to live in walled off Areas and took long from farmers to build those walls.

      Sure Israel has done this to defend itself, but it chose the wrong path. Something like the marshall plan and a single state would have been a far better solution. Now Hamas and the Israeli far right parties need each other. This is how they both keep the power they have.

      They? Surely you mean the UN, which means pretty much all remaining powerful countries of WW2, which established the Israeli state.

    19. Re:Congratulations Israel by Mashiki · · Score: 0

      Sorry no, my comment isn't. Someone with an IQ under 60 doesn't make that choice. They have the choice forced on them. Usually because they're not worth keeping, or because the family has been paid for the glory of allah, or because they're so blindly indoctrinated that they wish to kill jews. That's the reality of it there. It doesn't help when the education system itself(paid and funded by the UN and inturn by taxpayers world wide), teaches the same thing. Or that kids get a daily dose of it too on their state run TV. And never forget that it's multigenerational.

      Remember, that they've been given autonomy, they've been given elections. Both of which they chose to install a terrorist loving entity. Remember which side walked away, it wasn't Israel. Remember which side decided that martyrdom and death to the jews above all was the preferable goal. Again that wasn't Israel. And between the two, which one gives full rights to all citizens, including the right to vehemently disagree without being executed in the streets and dragged behind a motorcycle. I'll give you a hint, it's not Israel.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    20. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, so you admit that they're both bigoted. That doesn't disprove GP now does it? It rather reinforces his argument by admitting that the Muslim holy book is as degenerate. As atheists/agnostics here we can freely pass judgement on either without being accused by butthurt people like you of being on the other religious side. One doesn't have to be a Jew or Christian to call out Muslim bullshit.

    21. Re:Congratulations Israel by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So, who's going to break the cycle of violence? If you meet violence with violence, you get more violence. Someone will have to meet violence with kindness, and you don't seem to think the Palestinians can do it. So shouldn't you be encouraging Israel to do so?

      The only other alternative is the complete elimination of the Palestinian people. But by operaghost's logic, that would justify Palestinian aggression against Israel.

      The real solution is to acknowledge that neither Jewish nor Muslim states have any right to exist. The only just government is secular and democratic. Create a secular and democratic state where both israelis and palestinians have equal rights to vote. Then they can fight their wars in parliament, and terrorism will be a law enforcement issue.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    22. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look at the possible future of a young male in Gaza. No way to improve his life, regerdless of how hard he works, smart and lucky he is. He's locked in a shithole and who locked it again? Following some lunatics and blow yourself up with some "enemies" starts to look like a sensible option.
        I'm in no way a Hamas supporter, but what again should they do? Wait and talk until something is improving (like never).
      There's only one side in this conflict with the power to change something, and that's not the palestinians.

    23. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Until line 4 I was thinking you were talking about Israel. You almost had me there!

    24. Re:Congratulations Israel by murdocj · · Score: 1

      Well, there are only two problems with that theory. One is that the attack on Israel isn't a small operation with a few homegrown rockets. These are sophisticated missiles supplied by Iran that have been bought, moved hundreds of miles, smuggled through tunnels, and fired by trained terrorists. In order to this, the Mossad would have to be superhuman.

      The 2nd problem is that there just isn't any reason for Israel to do this. It's not like they are going to permanent occupy Gaza, they gave that up years ago. The only reason Israel is fighting is to destroy the missile smuggling operation... but according to the provocateur hypothesis, that's being run by Israel!

    25. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you know they haven't sent in agent provocateurs? Their spy powers are pretty good, they keep on finding hamas people (and the whole family as well) in their homes when they bomb the house. The mossad is a very effective spy force, they've done heaps of black ops in the past, and i have a suspicion that this may be an effective way to "legally" murder people, spark controversy and all the while, appear like the victim, by guiding gullible hamas people into making the first visible attack.

      Them's some pretty bold claims. You have evidence to back them up, or is this just some fantasy cooked up from rejected scripts from Call of Duty?

    26. Re:Congratulations Israel by r1348 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And if the Israelis didn't use terrorism and forceful evictions to displace thousands of Palestinians from their lands, we wouldn't be at this point either.
      What's the point in determining who shot first? We should rather concentrate on how to stop this madness, as the conflict has far outstretched the limits of reason.

    27. Re:Congratulations Israel by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Well let's work backwards a bit. Palestinians in Israel have the right to vote already. So that's sure not the problem, so do Arabs there. Actually they have more rights, and equal rights that any Israeli do under the law. Now don't forget that most of those in the refugee camps, I use that term loosely are Jordanian and self-identified as such. Most were also kicked out for the attempted assassination of the entire royal family.

      They're effectively the bastard child of the entire middle east because of what they've done. But they're tolerated because they can do the dirty work of the arab countries in the region while keeping their hands mostly clean. That is...attacking Israel, and while they're attacking Israel, they're keeping the populations in their own countries(Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc) attention focused on other things instead of their own deplorable situation.

      The reality aside, Israel has attempted to break the cycle of violence. Note that they limited or completely stopped all attacks against Hamas several times. Their response was an upswing in rocket and mortar attacks. They pulled out, and ceded territory, the response was more attacks. It got so bad, that even Egypt agreed and imposed the blockade with Israel.

      I already mentioned in my other post that there are serious problems with the hate that the people there are taught. Both by funded UN schools, and the multigenerational jew hatred. And until that in itself changes, there won't be anything to happen either.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    28. Re:Congratulations Israel by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Their choices were between a corrupt Fatah and Hamas who runs the schools and hospitals.
      Who would you have picked?

      Multi-generational occupation and poverty leads to this. No one should be surprised.

      I am not sure why it is so hard for you to see that I do not support the palestinians. I am only saying that it is not hard to see why this situation is like this and that none of the participants are blameless.

    29. Re:Congratulations Israel by Mashiki · · Score: 1, Informative

      And if the Arabs hadn't used terrorism and forceful evictions of millions of Jews from their lands we wouldn't be at this point either. Or did you happen to forget about the pogoms in the middle east committed by them?

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    30. Re:Congratulations Israel by Hatta · · Score: 1

      who sends rockets into soverign territory with the SOLE intention of harming ANYONE inside, civilian or otherwise?

      People with no hope to better their lot in life other than destroying their oppressors, that's who. If you want to end the violence, you have to offer them a path to peace and propserity.

      I thought you were cool GratefulNet.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    31. Re:Congratulations Israel by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      All arguing on the internet is pointless.

      The tit-for-tat I referred to was not of internet arguments but of the two sides in this conflict. Oh boy look an AC without the ability to read at an eight grade level.

    32. Re:Congratulations Israel by crazyjj · · Score: 2

      They have the choice forced on them. Usually because they're not worth keeping, or because the family has been paid for the glory of allah, or because they're so blindly indoctrinated that they wish to kill jews. That's the reality of it there. It doesn't help when the education system itself(paid and funded by the UN and inturn by taxpayers world wide), teaches the same thing. Or that kids get a daily dose of it too on their state run TV. And never forget that it's multigenerational.

      Nothing you just said couldn't also be said about Israel and Zionism. Crazy is crazy. And you religious zealots who think some Sky Daddy is calling you out for a special mission are ALL FUCKING CRAZY. Crazy and dangerous.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    33. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, who's going to break the cycle of violence? If you meet violence with violence, you get more violence. Someone will have to meet violence with kindness, and you don't seem to think the Palestinians can do it. So shouldn't you be encouraging Israel to do so?

      The only other alternative is the complete elimination of the Palestinian people. But by operaghost's logic, that would justify Palestinian aggression against Israel.

      The real solution is to acknowledge that neither Jewish nor Muslim states have any right to exist. The only just government is secular and democratic. Create a secular and democratic state where both israelis and palestinians have equal rights to vote. Then they can fight their wars in parliament, and terrorism will be a law enforcement issue.

      Israel would reject that because they would believe that it would screw with their demographics. The birth rate of Muslims is higher than that of Jews, so this New Israel would eventually become a Muslim country. It is a bigoted view, but it is something that needs to be acknowledged. It is the primary thing that prevents a one state solution. Of course the settlements make the two state solution impossible.

      My solution would be to make Israel and Palestine a secular federal republic with the interior states defined by the 1967 borders. The settlements would remain, but they would be within the Palestinian substate. Each state would get to select an equal amount of Senators, and Representatives would be elected based on the proportion of the people. A co-Presidency would be established with an Israeli and Palestinian co-President. The IDF would be abolished and NATO would agree to suppress rebellions and maintain security. International investment would be provided to bring up the Human Development Index of the Palestinian interior state equal to that of Israel within 30 years. At this point the NATO mission would be suspended. All walls and restrictions would be demolished in a gradual pace during this intermediate period and full citizenship rights would be granted to all Israelis and Palestinians. No guns or weapons would be allowed except to the police and NATO.

    34. Re:Congratulations Israel by SilenceBE · · Score: 0

      I'm tired, TIRED of ignorant simpletons and their rhetoric.

      But when somebody talks about Palestinians you make the ignorant assumption that every Palestian is a Hamas militant or an extremist... . It would be the same as saying that every jew wants every palestian killed and Gaza flattened because you have some nutjobs wanting this. http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/flatten-gaza-like-hiroshima-says-ariel-sharons-son-gilad-16239945.html .

      Let me guess American I presume, because talking of simplistic rhetoric there seems to be only one nationality that you can pick based on the same arguments from miles away. To be honest as an non Arab European guy it really sometimes doesn't surprise me that the US is such a hatred country in those parts of the world. I know that some of you are really convinced it has something to do with "Freedom", but come on... . Some of you guys are so notorious of not knowing what is happening about the world and the sad part is, that it sometimes really shows.

      I condemn terrorism of any kind btw. Islamic extremist like Hamas and state terrorism. With regarding the last this is very interesting or are you gonna tell me that these people also want to destroy every jew or Israël.http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il. There is extremism at both sides.

    35. Re:Congratulations Israel by Hatta · · Score: 4, Informative

      Palestinians in Israel have the right to vote already.

      But not the ones in occupied Gaza.

      The reality aside, Israel has attempted to break the cycle of violence. Note that they limited or completely stopped all attacks against Hamas several times.

      But they haven't stopped building on Palestinian land.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    36. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Homo-sapiens have been occupying Neanderthal land for tens of thousands of years, this is unacceptable.

    37. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny but true: the Mossad used to support Hamas versus the PLO in the 70's because they thought that they'd be better off with reasonable, religious folk. Boy were they wrong. Then they undermined the PLO at every turn and twist, so the population voted in Hamas. And you know: they were better off with Hamas than with the PLO, precisely because Hamas is frothing at the mouth.

      I can applaud the genius of moving your enemy in a position where he has to initiate attack in a position he can't choose, while you can shell him with impunity, even the civilians. I can applaud the immoral but brilliant method of making sure you have a raving mad opponent to legitimize the oppression, the landgrab, the internment of an entire population. But the fact remains: one side is in the wrong. And that side is the Israeli state. And all the reactions from the Palestinian side to the original displacement are justified - even if misguided and unproductive - because the oppressor, however enlightened he may appear, is wrong. The colonial powers had to give up their colonies, even if they did put down some railroads. This logic applies to Israel as well.

    38. Re:Congratulations Israel by WilliamGeorge · · Score: 1, Informative

      Alright, I suspect I'm feeding another troll... but I'll risk it anyways.

      Where in the Bible do you ever see rape justified, accepted, or encouraged?

      Do you understand that at the time the New Testament was written a 'slave' was more of an indentured servant? These people were treated nothing like the slaves we think of from the African/European slave trade. That level of inhuman treatment was never accepted in the Bible, and the laws in Jewish custom regarding treatment of servants / 'slaves' were very lenient. This may be in part because they were brought out of true slavery (like what we think of) in Egypt before they became their own nation.

      Further, are you aware that the way women are depicted and treated in the New Testament was far more advanced than how any contemporary society in that area of the world treated them? Women are named as the primary sources for parts of the Gospel narrative, when they weren't even allowed as witnesses in court at that time (as just one example).

      --
      William George
    39. Re:Congratulations Israel by houghi · · Score: 1

      Nice how you react to the first part of the posting, but not the second part.

      Stop blaming and start solving.

      I have worked in places where both Jews and Muslims could sit together and talk. All the rest is politics and perhaps you don't know, politicians are liars.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    40. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lolwut? Gaza isn't occupied.

      It's been administered by the Palenstinians since 1994 (Oslo accords). All Israeli presence, including settlers and soliders, were removed in 2005. At the beginning of 2009, there was a three-week Israeli assault into Gaza.

      Gaza is a lot of things, but it isn't occupied.

    41. Re:Congratulations Israel by Hatta · · Score: 2

      Israel would reject that because they would believe that it would screw with their demographics.

      Which is a fundamentally anti-democratic position, and not worthy of any respect whatsoever.

      It is the primary thing that prevents a one state solution.

      Exactly, Israel's anti-democratic position is the primary thing that prevents a one-state solution.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    42. Re:Congratulations Israel by r1348 · · Score: 1

      I see how you completely missed the point of my post. It would be hilarious, if it wasn't tragic.

    43. Re:Congratulations Israel by Coolhand2120 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Perhaps you can enlighten everyone as to what a better solution would be? Because right now you just sound like a "war is not the answer" asshole. Yeah, nobody likes walls, nobody like death, war etc.. Hamas, and by extension the Palestinian people, they were democratically elected after all, will not be satisfied until all the Israelis are dead, gone, or subjugated. A choice has to be made:

      1) Allow suicide bombers to kill at will.
      2) Become subjects of the benevolent Palestinian people.
      3) Utterly destroy the Palestinian people.
      4) Create a wall.
      5) ?


      So what's your plan? Because they seem to have already chosen the plan most acceptable to everyone involved. (besides you of course).

    44. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your comment is the kind of tit-for-tat [...]

    45. Re:Congratulations Israel by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Why don't stop being ignorant of the fact that Hamas' leaders have made it clear that they want Israel destroyed and all ethnic Jews eliminated? Why don't you stop being ignorant of the fact that Hamas has been initiated this exchange since they acquired Iranian weapons capable of reaching Tel Aviv months ago? Israel never fires the first shot, yet they are called the aggressors. I'm tired, TIRED of ignorant simpletons and their rhetoric.

      Dude,

      You're lying. Hamas has never said, implied, or hinted at some evil plot to murder the Jews of Brooklyn. They have never said, implied, or hinted that they want the Israeli people to leave Israel. What they have said is that they want an Islamic and Arab government to control the entire former British Mandate of Palestine, and that they are willing to kill anyone who stands in the way of that dream.

      Granted a Hamas victory would involve a lot of deaths in the Israeli Army, and would probably cause a major refugee crisis; which would de facto ethically cleanse Israel to some extent. But having bad ideas that kill people is different from supporting the murder of those people. Otherwise everyone in the US who opposed ObamaCare would actually be in favor of all the deaths ObamaCare's free medical care for poor people will prevent.

    46. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alright, I suspect I'm feeding another troll... but I'll risk it anyways.

      Where in the Bible do you ever see rape justified, accepted, or encouraged?

      When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. - Deuteronomy 20:10-14 (NIV)

      If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. - Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (NIV)

      If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money. Exodus 21:7-11 (NIV)

      When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her. Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (NIV)

    47. Re:Congratulations Israel by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Dude, you're lying again.

      The Palestineans did not walk away from the Camp David Accords Clinton was trying to negotiate. Negotiations actually continues for weeks after everyone had left the US for almost two months. The negotiations dragged on until Sharon took office. In short the people who actually walked away from that negotating table were the Israeli people as a whole when they elected Ariel Sharon.

    48. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know, if the Israelis hadn't been building settlements on Palestinian land, then the Palestinian suicide bombers wouldn't exist at all. Personally, if another nation was doing to my country what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, I would expect a hell of a lot more than the sort of piddly rockets we see being launched.

    49. Re:Congratulations Israel by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      Shhh....don't mention facts.

    50. Re:Congratulations Israel by PortHaven · · Score: 2

      Hmm, you mean, it'd be like what the Arabs (and Europeans) have done to the Jews for millenia?

      Oh, have you ever researched how many Jews were expelled from Egypt, Syria, and elsewhere? Mind you, these were Jewish residents who had lineages in those nations for thousands of years.

    51. Re:Congratulations Israel by poity · · Score: 1

      In what way is building on Palestinian land an act of violence? We can agree that it's wrong, and a transgression against sovereignty. But that's about it. It doesn't excuse violent attacks. Responding violently to acts of wrongful construction is NOT morally equivalent to responding violently to acts of violence.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    52. Re:Congratulations Israel by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      They occupy their historical homeland. Both populations grew mostly in the last century and a half.

      And yes, the fact that half the bloody world tried to exterminate the Jews in the 1940's and they basically got pushed into Eastern (Israel/Middle-east) & Western (west of NYC) NJ

    53. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that isn't correct, either. Hamas have never said Jews should be ethnically cleansed, it's Israel that is saying that, and doing it (You did read the recent comments from an Israeli minister saying "Paint Gaza red" and "Create a Palestinian Holocaust.

      Hamas won't recognise a Zionist Israel. Also, Hamas (which was originally funded by Israel to create this envronment of continaul harrassment of Palestinians,) is an entity which over the years is built up of people who have been treated like animals; the Palestinians are shot at regularly, harrassed everywhere; can't even build a decent infrastructure in Gaza, et. And you wonder why Hamas wants Israel to vanish? Maybe if Israel actually sat down to talk, Hamas would come to the table, and they have already said so in the past. But the continual killings of the democractically elected Hamas officials kinda makes it hard to fucking talk.

      Hamas started this recent massacre? Wrong there, too. This all started when an Israeli border patrol shot at a 13-year old girl in gaza. Someone in Gaza then fired an RPG towards the patrol, then Israel murdered that Hamas official and then Israel starts bombing Gaza under the pretence of protecting its citizens fomr Hamas rocket attacks.

      There was a truce in place; Israel violated it deliberately to start this new conflict.

      I am tired of stupid people who don't do their own investigaitve work and apply the same criteria to both sides. One of them is the underdog, you go figure that out.

    54. Re:Congratulations Israel by Hatta · · Score: 1

      But that's about it. It doesn't excuse violent attacks.

      Then why do we punish theft with kidnapping?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    55. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lolwut? Gaza isn't occupied.

      It's been administered by the Palenstinians since 1994 (Oslo accords). All Israeli presence, including settlers and soliders, were removed in 2005. At the beginning of 2009, there was a three-week Israeli assault into Gaza.

      Gaza is a lot of things, but it isn't occupied.

      The GP was probably confused. Gaza isn't occupied, it is just blockaded and the residents are considered stateless. It is a hellhole that the UN recently reported will be unlivable in 2020. Oh, and it is being bombed like crazy right now. So forgive the previous poster if he or she thought that Gaza was being oppressed.

      Oh, and what a coincidence it is that there was an assault into Gaza directly before the Israeli Knesset elections in 2009 and 2013. I'm not a soothsayer, but I wouldn't put money against another assault in late 2016 or early 2017.

    56. Re:Congratulations Israel by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      They've been offered that repeatedly.

      Oh, let's not forget that muslims control around a 1,000 times the territory of the Jews.

    57. Re:Congratulations Israel by cavreader · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dude,
      Murdering Jews is enshrined in the Hamas charter in writing. The Fatah political headquarters prominently displays a large map of Palestine with no Isreal in the picture with a caption promising this is the dream. And they have never hidden the fact that their goal is the total removal of Isreal. If Isreal withdrew to the 67 borders and gave the Arabs everything they are asking the next day you would hear the Arabs pronouncing that they have scored a great victory on their way to removing Isreal. They would certainly have much closer artillery positions to work with. If somehow an Arab army was to overrun Isreal they would kill every man, women, and child. Do you think the Arabs would suddenly change their bloody mindset once they get the upper hand? Of course this won't happen becuase I am pretty sure if Isreal was in danger of being overrun they would nuke every capital and religious city in the middle east on their way out and I would not blame them in the least. Isreal may have problems like all other countries but look at the countries surrounding them and witness the in-fighting, religious inspired violence, and overt hostility to anyone who doesn't tow their ideological line.

    58. Re:Congratulations Israel by xevioso · · Score: 1

      What anti-democratic position? People in Gaza voted for hamas. They can vote freely.

      People in Israel can vote freely.

      What the hell are you talking about?

    59. Re:Congratulations Israel by Hatta · · Score: 0

      Somneone should tell Amnesty International.

      Israel is the occupying power in the Gaza Strip. In 2005, as part of what it termed âoedisengagementâ from Gaza, Israel removed its settlements and settlers. Yet despite the redeployment of its troops in 2005, the Israeli army has retained effective control over the Gaza Strip. Israel maintains sole control of Gazaâ(TM)s airspace and territorial waters and does not allow any movement of people or goods in or out of Gaza via air or sea. Israel also continues to exercise a degree of control over Gazaâ(TM)s border with Egypt and Israeli officials have repeatedly made it clear that this border can only be reopened within the framework of a joint agreement with the Palestinian Authority and Egypt.1Israel also continues to control electricity, water and telecommunications in Gaza. It has regularly conducted raids in Gaza, often arresting âoewantedâ men; and carrying out so-called âoetargeted killingsâ, in air strikes which have claimed a high toll on civilians.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    60. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      wow, dude you need to read more. According to President Clinton Arafat was to blame for the failure of the talks,

      "Clinton blamed Arafat after the failure of the talks, stating, "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace." The failure to come to an agreement was widely attributed to Yasser Arafat, as he walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer and because Arafat did little to quell the series of Palestinian riots that began shortly after the summit.Arafat was also accused of scuttling the talks by Nabil Amr, a former minister in the Palestinian Authority."

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit#cite_note-Eran-19

    61. Re:Congratulations Israel by xevioso · · Score: 1

      The Palestinians don't have to launch missiles. They just don't. You realize this, right? No one makes a young man pull that trigger. They DO have the power to NOT fire missiles.

      And if they do this long enough, this NOT firing of missiles, then there will be peace.

    62. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      most of those have a single answer: jews

    63. Re:Congratulations Israel by WilliamGeorge · · Score: 1

      The one reference there which in English comes across appearing to be rape* is punished much more harshly than we do today - not just a bit of jailtime, but a lifetime of marriage as well as a dowry. Further, it actually provided for the woman: if it was known she had been raped, in that time period it would have kept her from being married later on. This way she is provided for, and the man could never leave / divorce her.

      * There is a lot of evidence that this is somewhat misinterpreted today as well. See this link for a discussion of the original language, which indicates it may not have been forced sexual activity as we generally think of the term today: http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ot_and_rape.htm

      The Exodus passage you cite is actually giving a lot of rights and protections to women that didn't exist in most societies at that time. The Deuteronomy passages also assign a greater level of respect to those captured in war than was common at the time.

      Finally, none of these things is to govern life today. Every example you found is specifically pertaining to the way the people of Israel in the ancient world were to be governed and ruled. These are no more applicable today than laws created by the British to govern the American Colonies before the Revolution. I believe you will find no such permissions in the New Testament.

      --
      William George
    64. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they voted for Hamas in Gaza and not the Palestinian Authority, so yes they can vote in Gaza. Plus they have Egypt as a border so if Egypt would let them out they would have supplies and ways to sell goods. But no Egypt does not trust them.

      the people building on "Palestinian Land" are called settlers, and the Israel's government try's to stop them, and has assisted in disbanding such settlements. http://articles.cnn.com/2008-11-19/world/israel.settlers_1_jewish-settlers-ehud-barak-knesset?_s=PM:WORLD

      but I guess we cannot let truth get in the way

    65. Re:Congratulations Israel by mjwx · · Score: 2

      Their choices were between a corrupt Fatah and Hamas who runs the schools and hospitals.
      Who would you have picked?

      Multi-generational occupation and poverty leads to this. No one should be surprised.

      I am not sure why it is so hard for you to see that I do not support the palestinians. I am only saying that it is not hard to see why this situation is like this and that none of the participants are blameless.

      This

      I do not support Fatah, I am against Hamas, but I have no ill will towards the Palestinians.

      Violence and stupidity breed... more violence and stupidity.

      Try meeting a Palestinian (or Iranian, Saudi, Israeli or other hated nation of your choice) outside of their own nation. They're normal people, the Palestinians I've met have been friendly and hard working but here in Australia we have an environment that encourages that. Try getting a good job or decent education in the Gaza strip. Its a shitty situation caused by corrupt and idiotic leadership so I cant bring my self to irrationally hate Palestinians for that no more than I can hate Americans for Bush.

      Feel free to swap Palestinian for Israeli, I feel exactly the same.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    66. Re:Congratulations Israel by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 0, Troll

      No, the reason Hamas wants the Israelis out is because it is commanded in the Qur'an. Any lands lost to muslims must be reclaimed (by force if necessary). Also there are many hadiths that command muslims to kill Jews and unbelievers.

      Probably because they forced these people to live in walled off Areas and took long from farmers to build those walls.

      This quote shows you don't actually understand the motivations of Hamas at all. The New Left comes up with the ideas like you have mentioned due to their lingering anti-imperial bent. This is wrong. I urge you to read the Hamas Charter and Google for Qur'anic quotes about killing Jews, Christians and unbelievers. Hamas intend for the Jews tol be killed, exiled, or enslaved as dhimmis. IMPORTANT: This has nothing to do with anything Israel has done or can do eg. no amount of concessions or appeasement by Israel will work - fortunately the Israelis understand this even if you don't.

      It is a religious *commandment* of Muslims to kill all Jews. All muslims agree on this as necessary to bring about Judgement Day (they just won't say it to your face in English). Some muslims are more actively at trying to bring this about (eg. Iran building a nuclear weapon; Hamas' terrorism against Israel; the general muslim 'stealth' war on the West and Western values). The muslims you think are 'moderate' are simply waiting until Allah decides to bring Sharia to the whole World (and the Caliphate) - including whereever you are. The Israelis understand the muslims much much better than you do, and so are resisting this terror. They are not going to be slaughtered without a fight against the true imperialism (note: Zionism isn't imperialist it just wants a secure home for the Jewish people; in fact it is the Caliphate that is globally imperialist, but the believers are quiet about this when talking to westerners). Unfortunately it appears many Westerners will give up without a fight or even waking up to reality (eg. doing research on what is really motivating Hamas, Al Qaeda, Iran, Salafis, Wahhabis, the Taliban, jihadis in Europe etc) :(

    67. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty sure if i subdivided your house, gave you 1/4 of your back section to live on and while i was at it restricted your access to water you'd consider that the "first shot"

    68. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What my grandaddy did to your grandaddy is their business.

      My grandad fought against the axis powers in ww2. By your logic, that means I shoud still be beating up on the Japanese.

      Stop making excuses for being cunts.

    69. Re:Congratulations Israel by Holladon · · Score: 1

      Let me guess American I presume, because talking of simplistic rhetoric there seems to be only one nationality that you can pick based on the same arguments from miles away. To be honest as an non Arab European guy it really sometimes doesn't surprise me that the US is such a hatred country in those parts of the world.

      ... from the guy who just pointed out that it isn't fair to paint all members of some given sociopolitical group with the same broad brush. Yeah...

      As a secular, non-Arab, non-Jewish American who finds religious faith and ethnic tolerance in general pretty distasteful, I'm usually among the first to criticize my fellow citizens for ignorance and simplistic thinking. But Americans are hardly the only nationality guilty of overly-simplistic thinking -- let's not forget that a good chunk of the western world, which includes numerous non-American countries, gets its news from media sources controlled by a relatively small number of moguls who have an interest in keeping ALL of us ignorant, fat, and bored.

      Most PEOPLE are pretty ignorant of what goes on in the Middle East, in no small part because most of the news coming out of the region is pretty badly skewed before it gets to anyone outside of the region. For that matter, from what I understand from the family I have living in Israel, even plenty of the news INSIDE the region is skewed, same as anywhere, really :-P

      Like you, I condemn terrorism of any kind, and I suspect we're in agreement that the conflict is a lot more complicated than most people acknowledge in these sorts of discussions. From where I sit, I see bad acts by both sides, not that any one side's bad attacks automatically justify whatever the other side does as retaliation, etc. And, of course, talking about "who started it" is both counterproductive and, funny enough, almost never addresses things like the British conquest of Palestine that preceded the creation of the state of Israel by the UN. I suspect that embarrassment over western Europe's role in the conflict is part of why many liberals in western Europe trend pro-Palestinian these days -- which, hey, how about that, brings my comment full circle.

    70. Re:Congratulations Israel by sd4f · · Score: 0

      Who's benefitting from this? It's not the palestinians, that's for sure, and it appears that forever the israelis are looking for a pretext at war with iran. It maintains the perception that poor little israel are the victims, and palestinians are the terrorists, so that israel can subdue the palestinians and maintain the apartheid, and keep on building new settlements.

    71. Re:Congratulations Israel by Holladon · · Score: 1

      Gah... proofread four times and still wrote "tolerance" where I meant to write "INtolerance." Dammit.

    72. Re:Congratulations Israel by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 3, Informative

      NicBenjamin writes:

      Dude,

      You're lying. Hamas has never said, implied, or hinted at some evil plot to murder the Jews of Brooklyn. They have never said, implied, or hinted that they want the Israeli people to leave Israel. What they have said is that they want an Islamic and Arab government to control the entire former British Mandate of Palestine, and that they are willing to kill anyone who stands in the way of that dream.

      Hey Dude, check it out! It's right here in the Hamas Charter:

      For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allahâ(TM)s victory prevails

      nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allahâ(TM)s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

      Pretty cool, huh Dude?

    73. Re:Congratulations Israel by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2

      its actually never been about land. that's a PR story to make the west more sympathetic to their cause.

      all one has to do is read the charter. read their charter! it does not say they want to live in peace with israel. it does not say anything about co-existence.

      in fact, its not even about israelis. they go out of their way to call out that *jews* are their enemy.

      how can anyone have any - ANY sympathy for their situation when they are unashamed of their genocide dreams?

      to be taken seriously, they must first denounce their desire to exterminate jews (sheesh, didn't we go thru this a few decades ago? not this shit again??)

      until they give up their genocidal philosophy, no peace can be made. none is deserved until they admit they are wrong on this extremely important issue.

      ask the entire moslem world to own up to the race hatred in their holy books.

      that would be a damned good start. but again, I don't expect them to revise their world view anymore than we will revise ours.

      we are basically incompatible; the western modern world and the moslem religion.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    74. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Resorting to imaginary pogroms to support your argument is just sad.

    75. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They've been offered that repeatedly.

      Oh, let's not forget that muslims control around a 1,000 times the territory of the Jews.

      What are you talking about? You didn't say "Israelis" because then it would just be comparing one country against a region which would be pointless. You said Jews. But Jews live around the world. Jews can live in the US, Europe, Canada, Mexico, China, Russia, Japan, etc. In fact, Jews can live in most Muslim majority countries as well. But for some reason they have to control this little sliver of land on the Mediterranean Sea. Not only that, but they need to expand it because it is too tiny, whether or not people live where they are expanding.

      Israel is an apartheid state. This is partially intentional and partially not. It is unintentional because if Israel could be a pure Jewish state, it would be. But since it can't be, apartheid is the only solution its politicians could think of.

      If they were smarter they would realize that a demographically pure state is an illusion and then allow the stateless to become citizens thus abandoning their failed ideology.

    76. Re:Congratulations Israel by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      You do realize you just agreed with me? I am only claiming that Israel wants more from a peace deal then a press release saying "Israel has the right to exist." They also want East Jerusalem which they have already annexed, possibly other historic sites (Rachel's Tomb comes to mind), and security guarantees (probably in the form of strategic bits of West Bank territory). The OP was exaggerating his point to the level of absurdity, and you just proved it. Thanks.

      BTW, the nightmare situation you're describing is not unusual. Between 1776 and 1876 the US invaded Canada officially in the Revolution and 1812, unofficially in 1830, and allowed Union Army veterans of Irish descent to invade five times between 1866 and 1871. More recently the Republic of Ireland was at best half-hearted in it's attempts to stop it's citizens from murdering people in Northern Ireland for something like 50 years. Much of the trouble in Africa is that everybody thinks funding a rebel group to rape/murder it's way to the capital is a great way to influence your neighbors.

      Being a nation-state sucks. Being a small nation-state sucks more. Being a new small nation-state, surrounded by other relatively new nation-states REALLY sucks. You don't have established mechanisms for dealing with disputes, the central governments are all quite weak so unofficial invasions are common, etc.

    77. Re:Congratulations Israel by NicBenjamin · · Score: 2

      Dude,

      It's anti-Semitic, but it's clear they intend no operations outside of the Islamic Waqf of Palestine.

      The key bit is actually the part you quoted. Jews will be fought unless they are "behind the Gharqad tree," and "victory prevails." If you intend to kill all Jews everywhere you don't include an out like the Gharqad tree in your metaphor. It's a metaphor for Jews knowing their proper place, behind the Gharqad tree ie: not opposing Hamas.

      In their objectives section they make clear their objective is an Islamic Palestine. When asked they say an Islamic Palestine can include Jews, as long as said Jews aren't opposing Hamas' policies. Metaphorically a Jew in Jerusalem who isn't lobbying to get Israel re-instated, and follows the rules of an Islam-based legal code, would be "behind the Gharqad tree," and perfectly safe.

      Granted this requires Jews to give up pretty much all their freedom, but the OP wasn't claiming Israel fights Hamas to protect political freedoms, he was claiming they do it because Hamas has a stated policy of universal genocide against the Jews. And that's just bullshit.

    78. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In what way is building on Palestinian land an act of violence? We can agree that it's wrong, and a transgression against sovereignty. But that's about it. It doesn't excuse violent attacks. Responding violently to acts of wrongful construction is NOT morally equivalent to responding violently to acts of violence.

      Violating sovereignty is violence. Thing is, Israel wants the Palestinians to attack because that gives them the moral high ground when they bomb the fools and gives them better approval from the population. Israel long-term plan is to kill all Palestinians, wait and see.

    79. Re:Congratulations Israel by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yo Dude,

      There's a PA Mufti who seems to disagree with you; he takes this Gharqad tree business literally (check out the last sentence of his).

      http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian_incitement/PA_Mufti_encourages_killing_Jews_9-Jan-2012.htm?DisplayMode=print

      PA Mufti Muhammad Hussein:

      "47 years ago the [Fatah] revolution started. Which revolution? The modern revolution of the Palestinian people's history. In fact, Palestine in its entirety is a revolution, since [Caliph] Umar came [to conquer Jerusalem in 637 CE], and continuing today, and until the End of Days.

      The reliable Hadith (tradition attributed to Muhammad), [found] in the two reliable collections, Bukhari and Muslim, says:

      The Hour [of Resurrection] will not come until you fight the Jews.
      The Jew will hide behind stones or trees.
      Then the stones or trees will call:
      'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'
      Except the Gharqad tree [which will keep silent].

      Therefore it is no wonder that you see Gharqad [trees] surrounding the [Israeli] settlements and colonies..."

      So, Dude, how about you ring up Mr. Mufti and 'splain the whole metaphor thing to him, like? Or text him, whatever. And see if he can sync it all up with Hamas so they're on the same page. Kewl. KThx Dude.

    80. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't stop being ignorant of the fact that Hamas' leaders have made it clear that they want Israel destroyed and all ethnic Jews eliminated?

      So what's wrong with that?

    81. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gaza is not occupied. Israel disengaged, and what were they met with? Rocket fire at there civilian population.

    82. Re:Congratulations Israel by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      What would your response be if a bunch of immigrants ethnicially cleansed your family's asses off their ancestral homeland - and then periodically shot or bombed what was left of your family while keeping you in an open-air concentration camp?

      Anyone who ignores the history of the Palestinian people or pretends there aren't encyclopedias filled with extreme quotes from Zionists is a sophist.

    83. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Hamas has been initiated this exchange since they acquired Iranian weapons capable of reaching Tel Aviv months ago?

      Oh fuck off. By your logic, you started the war by having guns capable of shooting the other side.

    84. Re:Congratulations Israel by Xenna · · Score: 1

      Even if you accept that it excuses violent acts that doesn't mean it excuses violent acts against people who have nothing to do with the 'illegal' settlements.

      If the attacks were directed against the colonists I would have some understanding, if the attacks were directed against the army I would have some understanind. But for attacking random Israeli's who may be opposed to the colonization itself or who might even be Palestinians themselves I have no understanding.

    85. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe the Jews are just anti social and that is why they got kicked out of everywhere, Pissing on peoples picnics so to speak.

      But now I am being anti-sematic : /

    86. Re:Congratulations Israel by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      They occupy their historical homeland.

      From 2000 years go, meaning their claims were based on nothing more than a romantic idea - kind of like Manifest Destiny. Whereas there are still some Palestinians who still own keys to the houses they were ethnically cleansed from in 1948, much less 1967.

      Both populations grew mostly in the last century and a half.

      Other than Israel's policy of subsidizing Jewish immigrants, of course. A Russian Jew can immigrate and enjoy more rights, money, and land than a Palestinian who's family had been living on the land for a dozen generations.

      And yes, the fact that half the bloody world tried to exterminate the Jews in the 1940's

      Which gives them the right to screw over another group of people?

    87. Re:Congratulations Israel by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Hamas attacked Israel.

      Israel attacked the Palestinians first. They're very quick to tell what's been fired out of Gaza, not so quick to tell you what they've been firing into Gaza on a regular basis, killing nearly 200 people in the last couple of years. Before the current outbreak of mass hostility, a kid was shot in the head while playing soccer, and a tank shell was fired into a tent with mourners.

    88. Re:Congratulations Israel by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Hmm, you mean, it'd be like what the Arabs (and Europeans) have done to the Jews for millenia?

      You mean your highly selective history? How about when Jews were treated vastly better by said Arabs as opposed to Europeans?

      Regardless, how does the fact that Jews have been screwed over many many many times in the past justify the last 64 years of them screwing over the Palestinians. How does that work, exactly. Which Arab nations are busy ethnically cleansing Jewish people from land they've lived on for centuries, keeping them under the thumb of apartheid, or kill a couple Jews a week until the population gets pissed off and strikes back, at which point the government bombs the ever loving shit out of them while claiming "self-defense"?

    89. Re:Congratulations Israel by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      No, the reason Hamas wants the Israelis out is because it is commanded in the Qur'an.

      Absurd islamophobic bullshit. No, they're pissed because their land has been stolen, their people have been bombed, and they have been humiliated and starved.

      You'd be just as pissed if it was you in their place.

    90. Re:Congratulations Israel by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      A choice has to be made:

      Looks like you made one...to ignore Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinian lands, the frequent bombings/shootings of Palestinians that has killed a couple people a week over the last couple years, or the fact that Israel has zero claim to the West Bank, to the Gaza strip, or Jerusalem. Because you cannot claim territory via conquest, and Israel started the 1967 war (where they grabbed all that territory) with a sneak attack on Egypt.

    91. Re:Congratulations Israel by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Dude, you're projecting. The Palestinians were willing to make massive concessions on territory, when by right they are entitled to all of the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem. But Israel always finds some excuse to yank the peace football away at the last second.

      Clinton blamed

      The Clinton who, like most American politicians, gave billions to Israel while covering their asses with the Security Council veto pen? Not the most unbiased source there....

    92. Re:Congratulations Israel by sydneyfong · · Score: 1

      Damn whitewashing.

      You asked

      Where in the Bible do you ever see rape justified, accepted, or encouraged?

      And you got your answer. And now you're just saying the "regulation of rape" is "giving a lot of rights and protections to women that didn't exist in most societies at that time"?

      Right, I'll give you that. But then what's your point?

      I quote from the AC's original post:

      Guess what, the Christian Bible is just as bigoted. It justifies rape, murder, and slavery. It treats women less than dogs.

      But most Christians are reasonable people. They don't follow their hate filled book. Nor do most Muslims.

      Perhaps you actually agree.

      none of these things is to govern life today. Every example you found is specifically pertaining to the way the people of Israel in the ancient world were to be governed and ruled.

      Or somehow you won't believe that some Muslims would think the same way about the "inapplicable" parts of the Koran?

      --
      Don't quote me on this.
    93. Re:Congratulations Israel by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      You realize that's a farce, right? That the current round of hostilities did not start with rocket attacks, but with Israelis shooting a kid playing soccer and firing a tank shell into a tent of mourners, right? That if it was your family being shot and bombed and humiliated and having it's land stolen and olive trees burned to make room for immigrants that you'd be out there saying "lets shoot off every rocket we have", right?

      And if they do this long enough, this NOT firing of missiles, then there will be peace.

      Israel doesn't want peace. It wants land. Which is why they've yanked away the peace football time after time, even when Palestinians are willing to make massive concessions on the West Bank or Jerusalem. Which the Israelis have no claim to under international law, since it's territory they conquered in a war of choice they started in 1967, with a sneak attack on Egypt.

    94. Re:Congratulations Israel by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The real solution is to acknowledge that neither Jewish nor Muslim states have any right to exist. The only just government is secular and democratic. Create a secular and democratic state where both israelis and palestinians have equal rights to vote. Then they can fight their wars in parliament, and terrorism will be a law enforcement issue.

      What happens when the Palestinian majority democratically elects a government that democratically votes to amend the laws so that the country is no longer secular?

    95. Re:Congratulations Israel by Uberbah · · Score: 2

      As if your response would be any different if it was your family ethnically cleansed from your ancestral homeland by a bunch of immigrants. A bunch of immigrants who shot you whenever they felt like it, bombed you whenever you felt like it, kept what was left of your family under the thumb of apartheid, going so far as to publicly admit to starving you into submission, I'm sorry, "on a diet".

      Pull your head out of your ass and stop pretending that Palestinians are bunch of raving anti-Semites without real and longstanding grievances.

    96. Re:Congratulations Israel by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      We should rather concentrate on how to stop this madness, as the conflict has far outstretched the limits of reason.

      There is no way to stop the madness at this point. Israel will never give up Jerusalem, and Palestinians will never give up demanding a third part of Israel for themselves (and eviction of all Jews once they take over). The positions are plainly irreconcilable.

      The only way it might work is if Israel agrees for some other, relatively stable, country (e.g. Jordan) to annex the West Bank, and then sign a treaty with that country. Even that would probably involve a fair bit of bloodshed on behalf of said country to suppress Palestinian militia and enforce their side of the treaty.

    97. Re:Congratulations Israel by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      With that statement it is clear you don't know wtf you are talking about. Read the Hamas Charter, ffs! No seriously, do it. Then read all about the Salafis. It is you that is talking bullshit - you think you know better yet you haven't even checked the facts. Here's a reference for you since Googling the Qur'an seems to be beyond your capabilities or inclination before you hurl insults you don't understand:
      http://www.letusreason.org/islam12.htm
      http://www.truthandgrace.com/muslimkillcommands.htm

      You use the word "islamophobic" thinking that people who criticize Islam are bigots of some kind. That is completely incorrect. I criticize Islam (as do others, such as the great Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins) because I'm much better informed than you are. I urge you to check the links I have provided in this response and others in this thread. I like my muslim friends as human beings but not islam itself (or any religion, they are all misguided compared to the truth of the scientific method and related philosophies). Westerners need to understand what the Qur'an and hadiths actually command, and the fact that there are nice muslims is because they don't obey their commandments. The ones that do obey the commandments tend to fly aircraft full of innocents into buildings to kill more innocents (or rocket innocents, or shoot little girls in the face for wanting an education as was done recently in Pakistan, etc etc). So no, I'm not an Islamophobe, just a shitload better informed that you appear to be.

      So next time, instead of slinging around "islamophobia" how about you do some proper research? You'll do us both a favour, and won't spread your incorrect speculation in a public forum (which incidentally, indirectly supports the terrorist agenda). Oh, and why you are at it please look up the 'Caliphate'. The idea makes no sense to rational people but it is a common idea that unites Al Qaeda, Hamas, Iran, Salafis and Wahabbis (if you don't understand those terms then perhaps you are not remotely qualified to make the judgement as to whether someone is an islamophobe or not). Do the research, please.

    98. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm tired, TIRED of ignorant simpletons and their rhetoric.

      So am I. I'll start taking claims of israel being the victim seriously when they stop pushing their policy of aggressive expansion via annexation and illegal settlements. this is something the UN condemns. But of course, you know best, right?

      And let's not act like the moving of weapons around the middle east is something unique to Hamas, it's no secret that Israel has been arming Azerbeijan (in exchange for a staging point for Mossad's operations in Iran). Both sides aggress each other, this is not one-sided and Israel is not a saint.

    99. Re:Congratulations Israel by tbird81 · · Score: 1

      I cannot remember when GWB launched rockets into Sydney targeting your citizens.

    100. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that's the difference between Israel and Iran I guess. Sure, the later can be savage and bloody, but they have a Fatwa on nukes and chem weapons, Israel has both, and their use of White phosphorus on civilians in Lebanon is no secret. Food for thought.

    101. Re:Congratulations Israel by tbird81 · · Score: 1

      I have a feeling he won't reply, so I've anticipated his response:
      "Love man, love is the answer. If we could all just get along there'd be no war and stuff."

    102. Re:Congratulations Israel by tbird81 · · Score: 1

      Kidnapping? You mean jail? How is that even violence?!

    103. Re:Congratulations Israel by tbird81 · · Score: 1

      Who's benefiting?

      Radical Muslims who want to wipe out the Zionist state and force Israel into bombing Gaza in self-defence.

      Israel sure as hell ain't!

    104. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, Israel's anti-democratic position is the primary thing that prevents a one-state solution.

      By anti-democratic you mean that they'd prefer to not have to share their country with a bunch of Jew-hating sand-niggers?

    105. Re:Congratulations Israel by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Because you cannot claim territory via conquest, and Israel started the 1967 war (where they grabbed all that territory) with a sneak attack on Egypt.

      Yes, poor innocent defenceless little Egypt was attacked by the evil Israelis for no reason whatsoever.

      Please.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    106. Re:Congratulations Israel by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      The real solution is to acknowledge that neither Jewish nor Muslim states have any right to exist. The only just government is secular and democratic.

      What, like Israel's you mean?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    107. Re:Congratulations Israel by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      I'm as pro-Israeli as anyone, but repeating stupid anti-Muslim propaganda doesn't help at all. Most Muslims do not want to kill all Jews, Christians, atheists or other non-Muslims. Sorry.

      The problem is a political one.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    108. Re:Congratulations Israel by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      What they have said is that they want an Islamic and Arab government to control the entire former British Mandate of Palestine, and that they are willing to kill anyone who stands in the way of that dream.

      That lasted from 1923 to 1948 when Israel was formed. So, in fact, they want the removal of Israel as a separate state from the equation.

      Also, what's magical about 1923 when the British Mandate started? Why not go back to the 1200? Or 2000BC?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    109. Re:Congratulations Israel by Deus.1.01 · · Score: 1

      Its funny how one side is allowed to have religious inspired nationalism but not the other.

      Incidentally, if I may ask, where does that leave Fatah? Or the communist resistance cells for that matter?
      In fact, the entire PLO which excludes Hamas is pretty much various left wing organisations with strong secularism.

      Still worldwide caliphate domination plans?
      These people have been fighting the Israeli occupation way longer then Hamas has been around.

      Time for Occam's razor maybe? Or shall we just continue with the hysteria?

      --
      My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
    110. Re:Congratulations Israel by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Israel doesn't want peace. It wants land.

      So how come it isn't occupying Gaza or the Sinai any more?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    111. Re:Congratulations Israel by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      This. The two-state solution is a joke because one state is basically a bit of beach front with a slum attached to it.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    112. Re:Congratulations Israel by Hatta · · Score: 1

      If I took you from your home, put you in shackles and lock you in a cage, you wouldn't count that as violence? It's still violence when the state does it, it's just (potentially) justifiable violence.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    113. Re:Congratulations Israel by khallow · · Score: 1

      So, who's going to break the cycle of violence? If you meet violence with violence, you get more violence. Someone will have to meet violence with kindness, and you don't seem to think the Palestinians can do it. So shouldn't you be encouraging Israel to do so?

      And if you meet peace with violence, you get more violence as well. Plus I really don't see the point of dumping this all on Israel's door. They can't magically make everything peaceful without cooperation from the crazy side.

      The only other alternative is the complete elimination of the Palestinian people. But by operaghost's logic, that would justify Palestinian aggression against Israel.

      Ok. Let us remember that this does work, but that it hasn't been tried yet. Rationalizing "Palestinian aggression" on the grounds that the only solution to Palestinian aggression is genocide of the Palestinian aggressors, is a remarkably tortured piece of logic.

      The real solution is to acknowledge that neither Jewish nor Muslim states have any right to exist. The only just government is secular and democratic. Create a secular and democratic state where both israelis and palestinians have equal rights to vote. Then they can fight their wars in parliament, and terrorism will be a law enforcement issue.

      Why are you proposing that we glue together two groups who clearly don't go together? I'm all for ethnic segregation when it can reduce the incident of violence and warfare, such as has happened with Israel and Palestine. Sure, they're pretty violent right now, but it'd be worse with some sort of poorly thought-out unification of the two - at least until they undo your damage.

    114. Re:Congratulations Israel by operagost · · Score: 1

      You know, you could have at least read the first post in this thread-- mine-- and answered my allegations. What you are saying makes no sense, in light of the fact that it is the Arabs who have initiated the attacks on Israel and Hamas and the state of Iran that have vowed to eliminate the Jews. Israel did NOT start the 1967 war. No one believes that except the same Islamic radicals who believe Jews drink the blood of children. It was started on the Jewish holy day of Yom Kippur, for crying out loud.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    115. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree that the region's best hope for peace is if Israel takes the high road. Turning the other cheek (while obviously not a tenet of Judaism) isn't about projecting weakness, it's about being undeterred in the face of violence. That's real strength.

      And Palestinians should be fucking embarrassed by the fact that people don't think they can behave like grown-ups. Just because all your friends swear to God that they would do the exact same thing in your position doesn't mean they really would, or that you should.

      Violence is never justified absent an actual or imminent threat. And yes, the US has violated that principle, and it's just as wrong and shameful when we do it.

    116. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real problem is that each party for its own reasons feels _entitled_ to the land. This of course being despite the fact that the land will still be there long after each of the other's bones have decomposed into it... Territorialism, dehuminization, and good old fashioned greed are at the root of this problem...

    117. Re:Congratulations Israel by operagost · · Score: 1

      Red herring. The religious belief, or non-belief, of the parties involved is irrelevant to the fact that two sides are in conflict over the control of a piece of land and/or the right to exist. Your elitist posturing does not place you above the conflict.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    118. Re:Congratulations Israel by operagost · · Score: 1

      No, they are not entitled to the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem. Those places were promised to Israel before AND after WWII. JORDAN belongs to the Arabs. And the fact that Hamas responded to Israel's concession of Gaza by using it for a death launching platform tells us they are not to be trusted with the West Bank.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    119. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
      Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
      More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14) What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery? The christian god..
      Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT) What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.
      Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
      David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
      Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
      Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
      Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
      God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

      Yeah rape exists no where in the bible.. except for in all of these places where it's allowed and even encouraged. Otherwise no where at all. Also.. owning a person is owning a person. I don't care if you beat them daily or dip their balls in perfume. Slavery is disgusting and removes the slaves free will.

      Cherry picking is great and all but really.. maybe you should take some time to read your own bible, instead of spreading the apologetics.

    120. Re:Congratulations Israel by operagost · · Score: 1

      Kindness was offered many times; the most recent was the withdrawal from Gaza. Arabs answered by turning Gaza into a rocket-launching site.

      What makes you think that the Israeli government is not secular? It is an ethnically Jewish state, not religiously. The national holiday is independence day, not a religious holiday. The government is a non-theocratic parliamentary democracy. Several non-Jewish (speaking both ethnically and theocratically) political parties exist and are represented in the Knesset. The requirements for citizenship are complex, but Arabs (and other non-Jews) who resided in Israel prior to 1948 and their descendants are citizens, and others who become permanent residents can be naturalized after five years. Ask yourself: when can a non-Muslim, non-Arab ever become a citizen of most Arab states? Answer: NEVER.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    121. Re:Congratulations Israel by operagost · · Score: 1

      His ass is speaking here. We never hear from the other end of Hatta. Israel is a parliamentary democracy, the most free in the Middle East, but that fact cannot punch through the field of cognitive dissonance created by the fundamentalist Arab people.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    122. Re:Congratulations Israel by operagost · · Score: 1

      Hamas has been firing into Israel ALL SUMMER. The media SIMPLY DID NOT REPORT IT.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    123. Re:Congratulations Israel by operagost · · Score: 1
      Thanks for slapping around that straw man, but I didn't say anything about Jews in Brooklyn (or the Bronx, for that matter). But article 7 of the Charter of Hamas says, "The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!" And article 13 claims there will be no peaceful solution: '[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: âoeAllah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.â From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? âoeAnd the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper.â Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.'

      Otherwise everyone in the US who opposed ObamaCare would actually be in favor of all the deaths ObamaCare's free medical care for poor people will prevent.

      I should have read this idiocy first; then I would have known not to bother.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    124. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real solution is to acknowledge that neither Jewish nor Muslim states have any right to exist. The only just government is secular and democratic. Create a secular and democratic state where both israelis and palestinians have equal rights to vote. Then they can fight their wars in parliament, and terrorism will be a law enforcement issue.

      What do you plan to call your faction? May I suggest the Hattainians? I like the way it would sound in the news: Hamas and Islamic Jihad took back even more of Gaza in a joint assault on the Hattainian sector. The UN condemns Israel for refusing to let the Hattainian troops cross their border.

    125. Re:Congratulations Israel by crazyjj · · Score: 1

      Your elitist posturing does not place you above the conflict.

      Yeah, in this case it does, because I couldn't give a shit less who gets that annoying piece of desert. If it were up to me, I would bulldoze the whole goddamned country and declare it a demilitarized zone, starting with Jerusalem. The Romans were right to burn that shithole city to the ground.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    126. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But not the ones in occupied Gaza.

      ...by their own choice. They didn't want Israeli citizenship. They wanted to be ruled by troglodytes like Fatah and Hamas instead. It's too bad, because the freest Arabs in the Middle East are Israeli citizens.

      And what exactly do you mean by "occupied", anyway? Occupied by whom? They demand autonomy, they get autonomy and Israel withdraws to let them "govern" themselves. They use that autonomy to lob rockets into Israeli neighborhoods, prompting Israel to invade them and take away their rockets. Every time, Israel leaves. They don't stay. They don't even want to stay. It is true that Israel blockades their borders and doesn't allow weapons in, but this is entirely different than "occupying" Gaza. If they chose, they could just stop launching rockets, start building their economy, and never see a single Israeli or live under a single Israeli law.

      But that's not what they want. They want to raise their flag on the walls of Jerusalem. That's all that this conflict has ever been about and to pretend anything else is delusion. You are not merely ignorant of the facts, but willfully so. Fatah, Hamas, et al have repeatedly stated what their real goal is and anything else is a distraction. It just so happens that their propaganda fits your world view better than the truth does.

      If you would like to argue that Israel is an illegitimate, manufactured state and that the occupation of ANY of the former "Palestine" by such government is wrongful, you can do that. You would not be alone. Hellen Thomas famously argued the same thing. It is an internally consistent perspective with a logical, factual basis and I respect that even if I disagree. I recognize that my disagreement with it is based partly on feelings rather than facts. It is what could truly be called a difference of opinion.

      The position you are taking is based on a difference of facts... and yours happen to be wrong.

      But they haven't stopped building on Palestinian land.

      According to Hamas, it's ALL Palestinian land, and that's the problem. Israel has several times attempted to pull back behind some imaginary line and not cross that line with future building projects, only to discover that it buys them no good will or abatement in attacks. The imaginary line is just that: imaginary. As soon as they respect one line, it moves. Then they are held to be in violation of some other line and the rockets and suicide bombs start all over again. You can cite this, that, or the other treaty (an entertaining exercise), but none of those treaties are currently in effect because the Palestinians violated all of them. Israel's recognition of any Palestinian land was always contingent on their ceasing to attack Israel and recognizing their right to exist.

      In June of 2000, at Camp David, Ehud Barak offered to dismantle all the settlements in Gaza and the West Bank in exchange for full recognition and lasting peace with permanent borders. The Palestinian Authority refused. That's really all there is to it.

      So, they've given up on moving their walls and borders. The walls are where they are and they only build to one side of them. The land they build on isn't used by anyone anyway. They're not plowing under Palestinian fields or homes to build theirs. Israeli population is growing and the Palestinian population is shrinking because Israel's civil society (including its large Arab segment) is a pillar of order and prosperity whereas Gaza and the West Bank are dung heaps built on corruption, ignorance, and violence.

      All government exists by two things: mandate (explicit or tacit) of the masses and assertion (exlicit or tacit) of its sovereignty. Every "nation" on earth is illegitimate from someone else's perspective and perhaps none more so than the United States itself. Just ask the French, Spanish, British, Native Americans. We've asserted our sovereignty against every sort o

    127. Re:Congratulations Israel by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      All I ask is that you read the hadiths and Qur'an for yourself. This is not propaganda it is their teachings in their unalterable and unquestionable scriptures. Now most muslims are good people that don't want to kill anyone - and it is this precisely this fact that makes them 'bad' muslims. This is something the Salafi movement is challenging - which is why we are seeing a global upsurge in muslim initiated violence, not just against Israelis but against Thai Buddhists, secularists everywhere, little girls in Pakistan, citizens in the US (eg. the sniper incidents a few years back), Al Qaeda etc etc. Again I will say it because you hear but want to deny it. Please read documents like the Hamas Charter, Qur'an and hadiths yourself. That is the only way you'll gain understanding of the agenda of the Caliphate movements. It is not anti-muslim propaganda to point this out (I wish it was as simple as that) - it is the writings and doctrines of their own religion. I can only try and open your eyes to the truth of what muslims themselves say to each other behind closed doors. This is not anti-Muslim at all, it is trying to get the reality of the situation through to thinking people like yourself who have been blinded both by the cowed and inaccurate western media and the taqiyya produced by muslims themselves (look up the principle of taqiyya, it is lies they tell in English to lull us into a false sense of security when in Arabic they make the complete opposite statements - that is why I say there will be no permanent peace until they recognize Israel *in arabic*).

      Again, your knee jerk reaction of "anti-Muslim propaganda" is incorrect. Please go check their scriptures and statements and you will find what I have said is factual - it is just something that Westerners want to remain in a willful state of denial about. Get informed and make your own mind up is all I ask :) Do these people share Enlightenment values? is 'true' Islam as promoted by the increasing number of Salafis compatible with the Enlightenment civilizations in any way shape or form? you decide, but do it based on your actual reading and understanding of their point of view (hint, I think you will come to the same conclusion as Christopher Hitchens - Islam and Enlightenment values cannot coexist; only by being a 'bad' muslim can you embrace modernity and progressive society).

    128. Re:Congratulations Israel by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      You do realise that if a Slashdot signature like yourself was ever pointed out to a Salafi you would most likely be killed. Brutally.

      You are correct the situation with Fatah and the PLO is different than the overt religious madness of Hamas. However to me it appears you want to make the case that Fatah and the PLO are 'legitimate terrorists' because they are fighting the occupation. Now I agree that Israel should get out of the West Bank and retreat to the post 1973 battle lines with no settlements on the Palestinian side whatsoever. We can agree on this yeah?

      Now this is where you might be confused. To Fatah mind (and Hamas) the 'occupied territory' includes what we would call the 1948 areas of Israel. This is why Hamas uses the terms 'occupation' when they talk about Israel. They are not talking about the West Bank settlements that we would agree as occupied. They are talking about all of Israel as occupied. Fatah agree with this notion. Also note that in english Fatah will agree to all sorts of things but the key is *in arabic* they do not recognize Israel at all. Their maps in Arabic do not show Israel. This dissimilitude (that is, deliberate lying) is permitted and proscribed by Islam (called taqiyya). However, the fact that it was revealed that Mahmoud Abbas had been negotiating a secret peace deal with Israel against his constituencies wishes produced howls of outrage and threats of even more violence against him.

      You can be dismissive with calls of "hysteria". I am not hysterical at all. It is just I have done more research than you and want to bring the actual statements and motivations into the public arena (ya know, like Christopher Hitchens did). I suggest you actually get closer and check the facts. Try and obtain information about what the Palestinians say *in arabic to each other* (remember, their english statements are taqiyya so cannot be trusted as true intentions). Please also read the Qur'an and hadiths concerning the commandments to all muslims to kill or expel unbelievers; please read the Hamas Charter; please read the statements of the Salafi movement; please read

      In fact, the entire PLO which excludes Hamas is pretty much various left wing organisations with strong secularism.

      It is a chameleon. It did this to get arms and assistance from the Soviets and Soviet clients. The organization (and the Baaths) may be constitutionally secular but that does not mean they are above exploiting the religious sentiments of the general populace to achieve their aims. If you haven't been hearing Allahu Akhbars in videos from the West Bank then you haven't been paying attention. Even without this, they still use the term 'occupation' to mean all of the region to the sea, not just the areas the UN recognizes for Palestinian authority. Again, if you haven't noticed this then you haven't been paying attention. So don't invoke hysterically invoke the word "hysteria" - because of taqiyya you need to look more closely than you appear to do at the present.

    129. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they cleared the settlements from Gaza years ago. It's not the West Bank that's lobbing rockets at civilian populations, it's Gaza.

    130. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am sorry but you can't have both ways. You have to choose. You either want to live in Israel or have no part of it. If you live in Israel then you have rights, if you don't,then you shouldn't complain that you have no rights in Israel.

      Israel left Gaza. The Gaza is under the management of Hamas. You should direct all your questions about human and other rights of the people in Gaza to Hamas.

    131. Re:Congratulations Israel by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      Um, wait, the Jews were ethnically cleansed from their ancestral homeland. Oh, and let's not forget, that the Jewish population has grown in conjunction with the Palestinian population over the past 150 years.

      It was really just when the "control" of the land changed, not the population. You see, fundamentalist Muslims cannot let muslim controlled territory revert to non-muslims.

    132. Re:Congratulations Israel by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      I said, Jews, because that's what the Palestinians say.

      And might I add, that while Jews live all over the world. (We have more in America than in Israel.), So do Muslims.

      But Jews only control one small 1/1,000th of territory compared to Muslims.

      And so everythign I said was quite valid.

      "Jews can live in most Muslim majority countries as well."

      No no-muslims can live in muslim territories without persecution. That's why Islamic nations are at war EVERYWHERE they exist, and don't have total control. (Middle East, Indian, Philipines, Thailand, Africa, etc, etc)

    133. Re:Congratulations Israel by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      So, let's look at things....

      FIrst off, the Jewish population in the region grew fairly concurrently with the Palestinian. Go back 200 years and neither population was very large.

      Second, much of the land was actually purchased by the owning parties.

      Thirdly, you may be right. There are probably some who lost their homes from 1948 (but remember, it wasn't the Jews that attacked and declared they were going to push them all into the sea). So if you pick a fight, and lose....don't bitch about it.

      Fourth, and lastly, hundreds of thousands of Jews were likewise displaced from surrounding Arab nations in which they had lived for centuries.

      Oh, let's add a fifth. Jewish controlled territory is 1/1,000th of Muslim controlled territory. Can't the muslim fucking share a bit of land without demanding the genocide and death of a people?

    134. Re:Congratulations Israel by oamasood · · Score: 1

      ...completely ignoring the brutal oppression which Noam Chomsky calls "murder, not war" of Israel against the Palestinians, which even Israeli civilian activists protest against.

      Let me guess - you're from the USA and believe mainstream media?

    135. Re:Congratulations Israel by oamasood · · Score: 1

      Awesome! Fight intolerance with more intolerance.

      It's not like secular/atheistic governments have been known for brutal intolerance...secular Turkmenistan, Communist China, fascist Italy, the communist Khmer Rouge, and the list goes on...

      In reality, thinking hasn't changed in the West - before, people used to follow the Church and burn heretics at the stake - now, people follow 'atheism' / 'whatever atheists are supposed to believe' and burn heretics at the stake. Nooooothing has changed.

    136. Re:Congratulations Israel by micahraleigh · · Score: 0

      Sounds like: "The bully's goals are just as justified as the victim's goals of defending itself."

      Secular governments just create disasters like Cambodia, USSR, China, Cuba -in short massacres, starvation, and (in best case scenarios) universal poverty.

    137. Re:Congratulations Israel by micahraleigh · · Score: 0

      Imagine if the courts had this attitude of "let's stop bickering about who started it" ...

      Thief-ocracy.

    138. Re:Congratulations Israel by oamasood · · Score: 1

      I'm a Muslim, and that hadeeth (saying of the Prophet) has been completely taken out of context. Just look at how Jews (and other minorities) were treated under Muslim rule - Jewish scholarship peaked in Islamic Spain, and after the Inquisition, Jewish scholars (such as Maimonides) moved to African Muslim empires.

      It is sad that a community which prides itself so much on free-thinking and open-mindedness will so blindly follow the mainstream media and right-wing conservative propaganda when it comes to Islam.

    139. Re:Congratulations Israel by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 1

      oamasood writes:

      It is sad that a community which prides itself so much on free-thinking and open-mindedness will so blindly follow the mainstream media and right-wing conservative propaganda when it comes to Islam.

      That hadeeth is part of the Hamas charter and is repeated by various religious and political leaders in Hamas (and, to boot, by that Mufti in the PA that I quoted, as well).

      Hamas and their ilk have co-opted much of the Muslim world by quoting hadeeths to bolster their anti-Israel and anti-Jewish (and anti-a-whole-lot-of-other-stuff-too) agenda.

      They have convinced a dangerously large number of their countrymen that setting their children to live atop an ammunition dump is a good thing, part of their "holy war", and then they rage against those who bomb their ammo dumps. They have targeted Israeli children as "legitimate millitary targets" because "otherwise they will grow up to serve in the Israeli army someday".

      I can't tell you whether they actually believe the religious quotations they venomously spew or are just using religion for their own political ends (as have many other religions been used throughout history). Probably some of both.

      Right wing conservative propaganda my ass!

      I hope you don't think I am mistaking these thugs for Islam anymore than I mistake those who bomb abortion clinics for Christianity.

    140. Re:Congratulations Israel by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Yes, poor innocent defenceless little Egypt was attacked by the evil Israelis for no reason whatsoever.

      Okay, sure. Israel launched a sneak attack on Egypt in response to the Egyptian blockade of the Straits of Tiran. But that means that under Israeli rules, Palestinians are totally justified in making attacks on Israel in response to the Israeli blockade of Gaza, only far more so. Because while Egypt closed a single shipping route, Israel blocks all it's borders with Gaza as well as the sea and the air.

    141. Re:Congratulations Israel by cavreader · · Score: 1

      There were Jews already living in the area known as Isreal before 1948, way before 1948 but that does not matter today. The people making the decisions on all sides circa 1948 are safely dead so their decisions can't be undone. Any conflict today needs to deal with the facts on the ground. Skipping back through history trying to one up the other side is meaningless. Now how can you use the term "ethnically cleansed" when the Arab non-Jewish population has expanded 10 fold since this nonsense started?

      The Arabs rejected the creation of 2 states in 48 and thus rejected the proposed state of Palestine. They launched a war. They LOST. The Arabs who stayed comprise 20% of today's Israeli population and have the same rights as all the Jewish population. Before the 48 war the Jews bought large swaths of land from the Arab owners. The quite a few Arabs left the area voluntarily at the urging of the 5 Arab armies that were attacking Isreal and told they could return after the Arab victory. Oops! And sure some of the Arabs and Jews were carrying on a armed conflict even before the war but that seems to SOP for that region of the world. In 67 Nasser used Arab nationalism and fanatic propaganda to gather forces to attack Isreal. They LOST. Oops! once again. This time the Egyptians and Jordanians abandoned it's citizens living in what is now called the West Bank and Gaza. Isreal tried returning those areas to their rightful owners and were rejected and those left behind were now magically called "Palestinians". In 73 the Arabs, with massive Soviet aid put together another attack on Isreal and guess what? They LOST. Triple Oops! The lesson being "THERE ARE NO DO OVERS" when you engage in an offensive war and it doesn't go exactly as planned. Why would Isreal allow a group of people who have been energitically trying to kill them for 60 years to move any closer than necessary. Since then the Arabs have changed tactics because it became glaringly apparent their militarises couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. They switched to killing civilians by bombing public buses, night clubs, and shopping malls. Throw in the massacre at the 72 Olympics, hijack a couple of planes and cruise ship, and launch missiles against nothing but civilian targets and you get to where we are today. Palestinian history consists of nothing more than a gigantic sheep herd being led by the nose from one violent confrontation to the next with no end in sight. Of course the Palestinian leaders issuing the calls for martyrdom are safely ensconced in their villas and bunkers in other countries. People such as yourself who have latched on to poor and downtrodden palestinians are hampered by acute tunnel vision and a refusal to even consider anything that might contradict your righteous and preconceived notions. The thing that really pisses some people off is that Isreal is here to stay and there is not a damned thing anyone can do about it. If Isreal goes so will a wide swath of the middle east and that might be a blessing in disguise. The only way forward is for the Arabs and their dhimmi supporters to stop the violence and show the world that they can indeed live in the world without their designer bomb vests and using 30 year old missile tech that has killed more palestinians than Israelis in this current flare of violence. If they do that they may one day see a measure of peace but until then fuck'em.

    142. Re:Congratulations Israel by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      I think you're missing my point: who started what doesn't matter, neither does who says who should all be destroyed. The palestinians rights are being violated, and that cannot be justified. That was my point.

    143. Re:Congratulations Israel by Deus.1.01 · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, Taqiyya....how cute.....

      Arabs are dirty animals, are liars and is conspiring to bring down the German economy...WHOOPS! no that was the Jews.

      Sorry, I can't seem to keep my bigotry separated. .

      --
      My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
    144. Re:Congratulations Israel by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      With that statement it is clear you don't know wtf you are talking about

      That's exactly your problem, because I do know what I'm talking about. And of course smearing Muslims based on the Korean is a farce since Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God with the same Old Testament, only under different names. As if you'd go around calling Christians a bunch of rapists because the Bible commands them to marry their brother's widow in the event of his death because had yet to have offspring.

      And since you skipped it the first time:

      They're pissed because their land has been stolen, their people have been bombed, and they have been humiliated and starved.

      As if your charter would be any different if it was your family and people ethnically cleansed from their ancestral homelands by a bunch of immigrants. And if that wasn't enough, then spend the next four and half decades living under an apartheid regime that kills who it wants, bomb who it wants, whenever it wants.

      Another problem for the people running around bleating "The Hamas Charter!" "The Hamas Chaaaarter!" is....the Likud Charter. Which lays claim to all of the West Bank, which Israel has zero right to as they seized it in a war they started in 1967. And it doesn't stop there. Israeli officials have openly talked of starving the population of Gaza, I'm sorry, "putting them on a diet". And now "leveling" the Gaza strip and returning the area back to the "middle ages". Again. And that's not even touching the outright racist garbage thrown around by the likes of Avigdor Lieberman.

      And unlike Hamas, Israel not only has the power to make good on their threats to bomb, level, and starve the population of Gaza - they're actively doing it right now.

    145. Re:Congratulations Israel by Coolhand2120 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, well, that's uh, like your opinion man.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
      Do a little reading and maybe you can show me when and where the "Palestinians" have a claim to this land. Hamas has no interest in a lasting peace, their charter calls for the total destruction of Israel. Since the entire world recognizes the U.N. establishment of Israel maybe you can grow up a little and stop living in a fantasy land. Or you can continue to promote this endless war, death and destruction. But what the fuck do you care, you're not being harmed, right? And you get to make your snarky little antisemitic remarks so long as these poor people keep getting killed. Win for you!

      Furthermore, the only time such a place as Palestine existed in after the Roman's decided to try and kill off all the Jews in the area and change the name of the area to Palestine (which must be Italian for "No Jews Here"). If anyone has a claim to the area it would be the Ottoman empire, Jordan or Egypt, and since they're not making a claim to it STFU.

    146. Re:Congratulations Israel by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I cannot remember when GWB launched rockets into Sydney targeting your citizens.

      He dragged us into two pointless wars that have cost Australian lives.

      He may not have launched rockets into Sydney, but they've bombed the crap out of Woomera enough times.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    147. Re:Congratulations Israel by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      Look, I'm not bigoted against muslims. However, you are dismissive of what I have to say assuming it is based in bigotry. That is not the case. Rather than simply dismiss what I have to say based on your incorrect assessment how about you actually check the references I provide in previous posts. If you don't like these then how about you google the following terms and form your own opinion about what you find when you Google "Hamas Charter", "Quran commands to kill" (resulting in pages like http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm), or "Salafism" or any of the numerous terms I've mentioned. I also suggest you check out some excellent YouTube videos, try searching for "Christopher Hitchens Iran" and similar terms - you will almost certainly learn many things you currently don't know.

      So I suggest rather than calling everyone around you bigots because you don't want to listen to what they are saying how about checking out the references I've given or googling the terms for yourself. Your post appears unable to distinguish genuine bigotry with an argument that is attempted to be created based on reason and factual references. That means your post is unreasonable and, well, kinda knee-jerk bigoted against anyone who tries to make a reasoned case for why Islam behaves as we observe it. Please do your research. Then come back and disprove my facts, if you can. Until then you need to realise that it is your reaction that is unsupported by facts/references and is therefore the actual bigotry :)

    148. Re:Congratulations Israel by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      That's exactly your problem, because I do know what I'm talking about. And of course smearing Muslims based on the Korean is a farce since Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God with the same Old Testament, only under different names

      Again. You do not know what *you* are talking about. The *theory* is that the same god is worshipped by all of those religions. This is the limit of your knowledge. However if you actually knew the *practice* of how religion is taught to Muslims you would know that the majority are not told it is the same god, and in fact many are explicitly told it is a different god because the Christians and Jews do not know Allah. You have scratched the surface but need to go beyond the theory to see *how it is used in practice*. This is why you don't have the level of understanding required.

      As if your charter would be any different if it was your family and people ethnically cleansed from their ancestral homelands by a bunch of immigrants. And if that wasn't enough, then spend the next four and half decades living under an apartheid regime that kills who it wants, bomb who it wants, whenever it wants.

      You do know that Ehud Barak famously said that if he'd been born a Palestinian he would have joined a resistance group. You know this right? The Israelis grok the Palestinian situation. Also, by using the emotional word "apartheid" it shows you have both a poor grasp of what apartheid in South Africa actually was, and a poor grasp of the *reality* of life in Israel. Would an apartheid state result in Israeli Arabs (full citizens with full rights and elected Members of the Knesset) taking the Israeli Government to court and winning? well, it happens quite often that Israeli Arabs appeal to the Supreme Court (since they have the same rights as an Israeli of any other flavour) and win against the Israeli government.

      Lol. Still stuck on the 1967 war. Why no mention of the 1973 war, which supercedes it as far as territorial claims go? Face it. You cherry pick facts because you want to hate Israelis. You want them to leave the Middle East and then you'll feel self-satisfied. You don't want the Two State Solution the Israel proposes *provided* both states sign a permanent peace treaty, there are mutually agreed land swaps, both states recognize each other and some other sticking points are resolved by negotiation. You are a hater and opposed to peace on any terms except those dictated by the Palestinians. I get that. Fortunately the civilized world agrees with my goal for peace and not your One State Solution (no unbelievers in the Middle East).

      Another problem for the people running around bleating "The Hamas Charter!" "The Hamas Chaaaarter!" is....the Likud Charter. Which lays claim to all of the West Bank, which Israel has zero right to as they seized it in a war they started in 1967. And it doesn't stop there. Israeli officials have openly talked of starving the population of Gaza, I'm sorry, "putting them on a diet". And now "leveling" the Gaza strip and returning the area back to the "middle ages". Again. And that's not even touching the outright racist garbage thrown around by the likes of Avigdor Lieberman. [truthdig.com]

      I am as disgusted by these statements as you are. Such things happen in a democracy. However, just because some vote-whoring politicians are making some sound bites does not make it government policy. However, when Hamas says it wants to get rid of every last unbeliever from the Middle East they do really mean it. The Salafis mean it not only it not only for Israel, but also the whole world. I'm sure a sycophantic apologist as yourself you can come up with some excuses for why they should be allowed to do this.

      And unlike Hamas, Israel not only has the power to make good on their threats to bomb, level, and starve the population of Gaza - they're actively doing it right now.

      You really don't know what yo

    149. Re:Congratulations Israel by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Dude,

      Is this really the best you can do? Because (yet again), you have managed to find a quote that proves Hamas does not want to kill Jews in Brooklyn.

      Mufti opens with a declaration that Palestinians have been fighting for Jerusalem for centuries. He quotes scripture condemning the current occupants of Jerusalem. He closes with a joke. Nowhere does he imply that he wants to kill anyone in Brooklyn.

      The joke proves that the Gharqad tree thing is just a metaphor because if it was intended literally, and every settlement was literally surrounded by the trees, then every Jew in Israel would be behind at least one tree, and thus imune to Hamas attacks.

    150. Re:Congratulations Israel by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      The mandate's magical for a simple reason: it's got all the disputed territory. Jordan's government is just not in Hamas' sights. BTW, the scope of the dispute is much larger then most people realize. For example the US does not recognize any parts of Jerusalem as official Israeli territory; even the half they won in 1948.

      Moreover I didn't say Hamas don't want to destroy Israel as a state. I'm not arguing that Hamas can win and the Israeli people can retain the political rights they deserve. I said Hamas will not a) put Jews on trains to death camps, b) forcibly relocate Israeli Jews who aren't opposing Hamas politically, and c) will not start lowing up Jews who aren't in the former mandate.

      The OP was accusing Hamas of being Hitler. That's BS. You can make a case that they're Stalin, but not Hitler.

    151. Re:Congratulations Israel by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      To quote you:

      Why don't stop being ignorant of the fact that Hamas' leaders have made it clear that they want Israel destroyed and all ethnic Jews eliminated

      "Eliminated" is a euphemism for killed. If you'd meant deported you would have said deported. You specifically chose that word so people who have not researched the issue would assume you meant genocide, but if somebody called you on your BS you could claim a straw-man. You are young in your trolling, but you displayed talent.

      As for the charter, you are showing exactly how young you are in your trolling. You purposefully sut out the bit of the first quote that indicates only Jews who oppose Hamas die. You were clearly hoping I would not notice, but as someone who is actually good at being an asshole on the internet I did. I honestly have no idea why you posted the second excerpt. I have repeatedly said Hamas kills all Jews who oppose them, that whole excerpt is basically repeating that and doubling down on it.

    152. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The whole definition of Israel is a state with an overwhelming Jewish majority.
      Should all the people living between the Jordan river and the sea share a single country, Israel would be destroyed there and then.

    153. Re:Congratulations Israel by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 1

      The joke proves that the Gharqad tree thing is just a metaphor because if it was intended literally, and every settlement was literally surrounded by the trees, then every Jew in Israel would be behind at least one tree, and thus imune to Hamas attacks.

      If it's a joke then it is unfunny, like many other racist jokes in this world.

      But you seem to miss the meaning of the word proof. Intending it literally would not make Jews who stood behind Gharqad trees "immune to Hamas attacks", it would just make the speaker a fool.

      And this Mufti's "joke", if it is a joke, in the face of the long history murderous of Arab attacks on Jews (even in Munich, you may recall), just makes him a thug along with the rest of the Hamas et al. lot.

    154. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gilad Sharon (son of Arial Sharon butcher of Saabra and Shatila):

      "We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too."

      Gaza is the equivalent of the Warsaw ghetto.

    155. Re:Congratulations Israel by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Dude,

      If you base your argument on taking the Gharqad tree paragraph literally, and anyone who takes said paragraph literally is a fool, then you've kinda proved my point for me. Hamas does not intend to kill all Jews everywhere. It has never said, implied or hinted that it will ever do so.

      Note I've never said Hamas aren't evil. The guy I compared them to in one of these subthreads is Joseph Stalin. And I'm not some crazy anti-corporate activist who thinks that's a compliment. The OP's sin is analogous to accusing a rapist of murder. I don't defend the rapist because I like the guy, I do it because it's just not true that he's a murderer.

      My problem with these threads (and pro-Israel people in general) is they betray terrible logic. You, for example, are trying to bring some other group that agrees with Hamas sometimes into a discussion of Hamas. That is amusing. Black September may have been an independent terror-group left of Fatah, or it may have been the left-wing of Fatah. Nobody seems to know. Hamas is so far to the right of Fatah that they have probably killed more Fatah members then Israelis, and the entire point of their group is to abolish Israel. I'm sure if I spent my time on Arab-language forums I'd be saying the same thing about the Palestinians, but I don't spend my time there, so the poor schmucks who post on their emotions I see are almost all defending Israel.

    156. Re:Congratulations Israel by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 1

      NicBenjamin,

      Despite your tangential concerns that somebody somewhere may believe that standing behind some specific type of tree will protect a person from being murdered, whereas standing behind any other type of tree will blow their spot when the tree calls out to the murderers that "there is a Jew behind me", I did not take this specific part of the hadith as of overarching importance.

      The essence of the issue is that Hamas, a so-called democratically elected political entity, among other things, has as part of its charter a hadith that specifically calls for the hunting down and murder of Jews.

      You prefer to avoid the issue and focus instead on a phrase at the end of that hadith that may or may not have some meaning beyond your ridicule of it.

    157. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Marshall plan for the Fakestinians? You must be kidding! Who do you think we are dealing with, Germans, Dutch? Over 60 years of "Marshall handouts" from the international community and what you've got is a third generation of genetic basket cases. The Arabs, in general, can succeed as individuals given the proper environment. But as a collective? Look at all the Arab countries surrounding Israel and you'll figure out. Even Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the Emirates - take away the natural gas and the oil and they'll be back to lighting campfires with camel dung...

    158. Re:Congratulations Israel by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      NicBenjamin,

      Despite your tangential concerns that somebody somewhere may believe that standing behind some specific type of tree will protect a person from being murdered, whereas standing behind any other type of tree will blow their spot when the tree calls out to the murderers that "there is a Jew behind me", I did not take this specific part of the hadith as of overarching importance.

      My problem with your argument is not that you don't give this statement "overarching importance," it's that you ignore it completely. If a on ordinary person says "I hate people like that. I'll kill anyone like that who isn't doing X" the part of the statement that tells you whether this is a bone-chilling threat to "people like that" is X. If X is ridiculous it's obvious hyperbole, and not actually a threat.

      The essence of the issue is that Hamas, a so-called democratically elected political entity, among other things, has as part of its charter a hadith that specifically calls for the hunting down and murder of Jews.

      You prefer to avoid the issue and focus instead on a phrase at the end of that hadith that may or may not have some meaning beyond your ridicule of it.

      I asked you for evidence that Hamas wanted to kill all Jews everywhere. You presented BS. If you present BS as your evidence we will talk about BS, and it will be your fault.

      As for the "essence of the issue," I have three points. First, this is much more limited then the actual issue we were discussing. A dude named Rabinowitz who wants to kill his grandparent's for the insurance money counts as someone "hunting down and murdering" Jews. When you jumped into this thread you implicitly claimed Hamas has a plot to murder all Jews in Brooklyn by contradicting my claim that they do not have such a plot. You just admitted I was right to say that.

      Second, even in after retreating to a much weaker version of the argument you still aren't very convincing. Even after you hacked that Hadith to make it worse it didn't say anything about "murder." It said "kill." If Hamas has legitimate reason to fight the Israeli Army (and I think the lack of a peace settlement justifies operations against military targets), then it has reason to hunt down and kill those Jews in the Israeli Army. Which happen to be something like 10% of the Israeli population.

      Third, who gives a damn about their charter. The US Charter says that the British Crown should be driven from the continent, and in service of said charter we tried to conquer Canada a half-dozen times.The funniest bit is we expected to be greeted as liberators every damn time. The Declaration will never be amended, but I sincerely doubt we'll ever invade Canada again. Words matter more then actions for both the US and Hamas. And their actions condemn them.

      BTW, I'm not holding Israel blameless. Hamas has power largely because Israel is unwilling or unable to stand up to the settler's lobby. Abas can't get anyone to follow him without a land-for-peace deal, but Israel can't/won't give up land, therefore Hamas wins elections. The Israelis seem to know this is what's going on, which explains how extremely un-hopeful they were that crushing Hamas in a ground invasion would actually work; but they don't trust Abas to stay a secular, non-murderous democrat. I suspect the only long-term solution is the so-called single-state solution.

    159. Re:Congratulations Israel by oamasood · · Score: 1

      Well, in order to understand Hamas's mentality, we also have to understand the history of that region and why the Palestinian people think the way they do. The violence against Israelis is not limited to religious Palestinians, but secular and communist ones, as well. Point is - oppress a people, give them no options, and they will resort to desperate measures.

    160. Re:Congratulations Israel by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 1

      So I guess that Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria can expect to have their civilian population randomly maimed and murdered by Palestinian refugees as well?

      The Palestinians' Lebanese camps became ghettos as the Palestinians were barred from citizenship, finding certain jobs, or traveling abroad. Some of these refugee camps, overcrowded and filled with angry refugees, helped seed the beginnings of Yasser Arafat's Fatah group; guerrilla attacks on Israel were launched from some of the Palestinian camps in Lebanon.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_refugee_camps

      The Palestinian problem has been the most useful anti-Israel tool in the Arab world's toolkit; they will not help the Palestinian people to integrate into the Arab countries and have a normal life because the Palestinian refugees are too useful as a pawn in the "Destroy Israel" game. Meanwhile Israel has an Arab population that is integrated into the society -- socially, economically, and politically. But they're the bad guys, right?

    161. Re:Congratulations Israel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They were offered the best deal they could ever get at the Oslo accords and Arafat turned it down.

  5. Israel is a Friend to the United States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Kudos to the Israeli government for taking proactive measures to secure their infrastructure in the wake of the blood-thirsty terrorist organization threatening to eradicate the Israeli people for a largely made-up offense. The US government should use its strategic political relationship with Israel to learn how to do it themselves.

    1. Re:Israel is a Friend to the United States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Israel is a Friend to the United States

      What exactly has Israel ever done for the United States? They've stolen military secrets and threatened to sell them to the Russians. They've involved us in conflicts across the world that provide us no benefit whatsoever. And their oppression of the Palestinians has spurned terrorists on to attack the US.

      And what do we get for this? They now threaten to attack Iran and fuck with the international oil trade. They bomb Gaza relentlessly even after the US paid for their Iron Dome defense system that has largely made Israeli cities immune from rocket fire. And their Prime Minister felt that it was okay to interfere in our Presidential elections.

      Sorry, Israel is no friend of the US.

    2. Re:Israel is a Friend to the United States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Providing them with russian airplanes they got from arab defectors so the US could create "russian batallion" for the purpose of training its jets against russian airplanes?

    3. Re:Israel is a Friend to the United States by TheSeatOfMyPants · · Score: 1

      Exactly... I wish our politicians would quit wasting our extremely limited funds on Israel; I'm tired of seeing our society's needs set aside to back them. I watch my mother's teeth falling out & her health weakening because the severely underfunded support she gets as a disabled citizen isn't enough to buy good food or see a dentist and Medicaid is crap -- and then I think of spending all of that money in Israel only to have them oppress the Palestinians to the point that horrible conflicts (costing us still more) is inevitable.

      Other "grown up" Western countries figured out long ago that forcefully colonizing other nations and sticking the inhabitants into ghettos wasn't a brilliant move. That's because whenever the subjugated peoples rebelled, the conqueror was left to deal with the mess themselves even if it took decades (as it did in the UK's Troubles); if anything, each country had to worry about their rivals supporting the rebels (as France did when the American Colonies decided to toss England out on its ear). As Israel wishes to be one of the big boys, it should act like one, rather than as a colony demanding the protection & financial support of the founding nations.

      --
      Now mostly at Usenet:comp.misc & SoylentNews.org (it's made of people!)
    4. Re:Israel is a Friend to the United States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i think you need to research abit more....israel and america HAVE ALOT OF JOINT VENTURES...and america regularly asks israel for help with intelligence ops and joint military ops... ur also forgetting the XBAND Radar system the us is using in our desert.... israel spends the american aid money on american good and products...thats the way aid works.... israel has a right to defend itself ..israel has invented alot ..and has given america ALOT OF TECHNOLOGIES.... instead of fapping to david dukes anti semetic crap and researching abit you would see ;)

      excuse my bad english i am from israel

  6. Nothing like throwing down the gautlet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly this is bait to encourage better attacks.

    *sigh*

    1. Re:Nothing like throwing down the gautlet by Brad1138 · · Score: 1

      I thought the same thing, is there another instance where they have "failed"? I would think it is just a matter of time. What effect does it have on their "brand" if they do fail?

      --
      If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
  7. Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I'm not sure whether they are a-bomb or h-bombs, but they have them. And I suspect, within my lifetime, they will use them. This one single act will render all other acts of terrorism Lilliputian by comparison.

    1. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by PortHaven · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They won't use them, unless their very survival is at threat.

      Leave Israel alone, and they'll leave you alone.

    2. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How do you know that?

      How do you know that?

      It sure looks like they are as blameworthy as the other side. No one wants to hear it but Israel with the West Bank/Gaza Strip and the USA in Iraq/Afghanistan need to remember how WW2 ended. With the Marshall plan. Anything short of a similar rebuilding program will only lead to what we have now.

    3. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You know, if the Middle East suddenly magically disappeared, I wouldn't give a damn. Hell, I'd probably celebrate. No more phantasmagoric indoctrination for future generations? Yay for that!

      But I'd keep Israel. They do useful stuff, such as new Intel microarchitectures, and ICQ, and PHP...OK, scratch the last two. But at least they export tangibly beneficial stuff and not armies of loonies.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    4. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by sd4f · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm sure the palastinians would like to be left alone...

    5. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, the Marshall plan. You know, Germany first gave up and only then it was rebuilt. Somehow I don't think that the Arabs will be as willing to distance themselves from Qu'ran as the Germans were with Mein Kampf. Oh, speaking of Mein Kampf...you *do* know that in the Middle East, it's quite the bestseller?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    6. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're missing a step. Before there was the Marshall Plan, there was the utter and complete defeat of Nazi Germany by brute military force. The Allies didn't say "Sorry about opposing you and hurting your feelings, Adolph, here's a ton of money to start building your Thousand Year Reich. We're so sure you're ready to hold hands and sing Kum-ba-yah that we won't even make you renounce your intention to exterminate members of 'inferior' races."

    7. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I am not missing a step you are assuming I am not advocating such a solution.

    8. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Kupfernigk · · Score: 0

      A bombs. About 80 of them. And it is said they have missiles targeted on London, Paris and Berlin. Israel goes, Europe goes too. A good way to keep foreign governments onside. Mind you, I was told this by a South African. YMMV.

      --
      From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    9. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You don't think their population would distance themselves from the crazies for a chance at a good life?

      You don't think AC, McDonalds and TVs would pacify them?

      I think that sort of easy life is attractive to everyone and only the shitty living conditions they people live in motivates them to behave as they do. They want someone to blame, they want someone to fight because they have nothing else.

    10. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Petty squabble about holy land? Fuck you.

      I'd divide Jerusalem in an instant, if that would have helped any. I'm defending home.

    11. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Soviet Union defeated Nazi Germany.

      Plain, simple, true.

      Like WWI, US scooped glory and declared spoils, with the least to lose, and at the smallest risk taken.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    12. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Israel's army is made of hotties. http://goo.gl/7HSr1

    13. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Real_Reddox · · Score: 1

      "I believe for no reason that Israel will doom this world without cause, and that's why they are as bad as Hamas etc." FTFY

      --
      I spent five minutes stealing cool sigs and all I got was this.
    14. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by murdocj · · Score: 0

      As blameworthy? They are responding to hundreds of rocket attacks. Got that? ANY nation would respond the way Israel is responding. The only "nations" that don't respond when they are attacked are ones where central authority has broken down.

    15. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      You don't think their population would distance themselves from the crazies for a chance at a good life?

      In many of the Middle-Eastern countries, you can only be non-crazy at the cost of your own health, safety, or even life. Being crazy is a mandatory social norm there. Saying that you're not crazy anymore can get you jailed, at the very least.

      You don't think AC, McDonalds and TVs would pacify them?

      What, you'd combat fire with earthquakes? Brilliant. That's what the world needs...

      They want someone else to blame, they want someone else to fight because they have nothing else.

      FTFY. They had a serious head start on us as late as around, say, 1400. Pray tell, what did they do to squander it the way they did? But people in general are not exactly famous for being able to admit their own mistakes, even when it's quite obvious that no other course of action is nearly that sensible.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    16. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody's asking them to give up the Qu'ran. The Hamas Charter, on the other hand...

    17. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Might as well nuke the 40+% of Americans who think the world is ~6000 years old...

      Such an algorithm isn't really a good starting point.

    18. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by murdocj · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They could be. All they need to do acknowledge that Israel is a legitimate nation. But you know, Hamas won't do that. They want to abolish Israel. Kind of hard for Israel to leave alone people who want to destroy it.

    19. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Leave the invasors alone and they'll leave you alone.

      Sorry no, there was already peopel living there when they moved in. I don't care if they believe God said it was their turf, Irael is in the worng here.

    20. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We are not talking about part of Israel, for better or worse. Not other nations.

      How are the things that keep first world nations nice and peaceful fire? Do you really think AC is evil?

      These people did nothing to squander a way their lead, they were not even thought of at that time. Most of them were born after the 1948 formation of the current state of Israel. They were born into this situation. You can't see how being born into poverty in an occupied area not even acknowledged as part of the greater State, would lead to this sort of thing?

      Understanding on both sides would go a long way towards letting this issue be solved.

    21. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      And those sending the rockets claim they are responding to 60 years of oppression and on and on it goes.

      You are blaming only the most recent actions for what is really a much longer term issue.

    22. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Parent is flamebait?

      More Russian lives were lost at Stalingrad, than in the whole US war effort.

      More Russian lives were lost at Leningrad, than in the whole US war effort.

      The myths we hold to be "history" distort our entire perspective on seeing the present world clearly.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    23. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Hatta · · Score: 0

      But I'd keep Israel. They do useful stuff, such as new Intel microarchitectures, and ICQ, and PHP...OK, scratch the last two. But at least they export tangibly beneficial stuff and not armies of loonies.

      Israel's influence on US foreign policy has been unequivocally harmful. I'd be happy getting rid of Israel just so we could get back to putting our own countries interests first.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    24. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go on and nuke them into oblivion. At least they have a small ecologic footprint and destroy our ecosystem more slowly compared to some other western countries.

    25. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Absolutely true.
      Now knowing that bombing them or rolling tanks through their cities is not winning "Hearts and Minds" how is that goal to be achieved?

    26. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      How are the things that keep first world nations nice and peaceful fire? Do you really think AC is evil?

      Anonymous Cowards are difficult to disambiguate. McDonalds food is difficult to digest. TV is difficult to destupidify.

      These people did nothing to squander a way their lead, they were not even thought of at that time. Most of them were born after the 1948 formation of the current state of Israel.

      I am talking about the Middle East as a whole. Israel surely isn't to blame for Saudi Arabia, Iran etc. having dickheads in positions of power.

      You can't see how being born into poverty in an occupied area not even acknowledged as part of the greater State, would lead to this sort of thing?

      I can see that. They ought to blame their ancestors, who were unwilling to get 80 % of the former BMfP. They wanted it all, they waged multiple wars of aggression to that end, they failed at that and now their lives suck. Well, tough luck, cowboy.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    27. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sorry, no to YOU. It is their ancestral homeland and they were forced to live in exile for 2,000 years while their land was continuously occupied by foreigners (mostly jihaders and crusadists). The last independent indigenous state there was Jewish. They definitely have a right to be there.

    28. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But I'd keep Israel. They do useful stuff, such as new Intel microarchitectures, and ICQ, and PHP...OK, scratch the last two. But at least they export tangibly beneficial stuff and not armies of loonies.

      Israel's influence on US foreign policy has been unequivocally harmful. I'd be happy getting rid of Israel just so we could get back to putting our own countries interests first.

      O common tail wags the dog gimme a brake...

    29. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you know that Obama won't nuke Texas?

      How do you know that Obama won't nuke Texas?

      Conclusion: Remove Obama because you can't know 100% that he won't nuke Texas.

      I mean, this rhetoric - it's pretty nifty, but not sure how productive it is.

    30. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1

      To clarify, I don't believe this. There is a lot of tinfoil hattery out there about Israel. But it's pretty obvious they have an A bomb or so, and given the size of their territory and the size of the Pakistani arsenal, they would be mad to use them as a first strike weapon. Pakistan only has to get lucky once. Why worry about Iran?

      --
      From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    31. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you're willing to accept "generic fast food restaurant" as a substitute for McDonalds, then they have all of those things in Gaza already.

      The population has already worked around Hamas. They've built shopping malls, supermarkets and cafes. They've got infrastructure! It's not exactly New York, but nor is it a prison camp.

      But there's a limit to what you can do, as a citizen, when your government consists of rocket-obsessed lunatics intent on fighting a jihad against the Jooooz at any cost. Particularly since no other country is really interested in helping you, if "help" means anything other than appeasing Hamas.

    32. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Kral_Blbec · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A reflection of military strategy, not contribution. To the Soviets a single soldier was expendable. The US has a different approach. You also discount the billions of dollars that the US gave the Soviets to finance military production.

    33. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the Eastern Front, it was due to Soviet manpower plus US materiel.

    34. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Might as well nuke the 40+% of Americans who think the world is ~6000 years old... Such an algorithm isn't really a good starting point.

      I beg to differ. That is an excellent starting point.

    35. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. You won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. " - George Patton.

      The Soviet Union didn't win the war alone. In fact their surprise and unprepared reaction allowed the Germans more time to loot them, thus extending the war. The Soviet Union won their front of the war by taking enormous causalities but still having enough manpower to overwhelm the enemy. The other allies won their front by not taking enormous casualties but by having superior weaponry and intelligence. These same other allies also defeated Italy.

      I know there is a myth that since the Soviet Union took the most casualties that they were the most important fighters for the war. It is simply not true. They just fought inefficiently. The US and Commonwealth countries fought very efficiently winning in Africa, Italy, France, and the Pacific Rim. Oh, and don't forget that the US gave the Soviet Union enormous amounts of war materiel. Without it, they would have fallen. It sucks that the Soviet Union lost so many people. But sending two soldiers out with guns but only one with ammo isn't the most efficient strategy.

    36. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Atheist here.

      Never trust anyone who believes in a "World order".

    37. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by peppepz · · Score: 2

      Killing many more innocent people of the opposing faction in retaliation for one's victims was a distinctive mark of the Nazis during WW2. Israel shouldn't become a monster to fight another one.

    38. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not only that, they'd also need to GTFO

    39. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by epistemology · · Score: 1

      Not to mention: HITLER

    40. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Prien715 · · Score: 1

      They sure left Ahmed Jabari (Hamas military chief) alone. If Israel's "defense" minister was killed, would Israel react any differently?

      Isn't killing innocent people just wrong? How can you justify killing scores of innocent people to save a few lives on your own side? How is dropping a bomb and killing an innocent family any different than firing a rocket and doing the same?

      There's a passage in the Torah that specifies the limit of reciprocity: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. If they are willing to kill ten women and children "accidentally" for every one the Palestinians murder, I cannot see how any Palestinian can take their claims of peace seriously. If the rockets were fired from within their own borders and the terrorism were domestic, I'm sure Israel would find a way to be a bit more careful about stopping them.

      As Cohen wrote in his brilliant piece for the NYTimes today, this is sadly a political affair where the objective is not to win peace, but an election.

      --
      -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    41. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by bug1 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Leave Israel alone, and they'll leave you alone.

      Israels actions of the last fifty years cast very strong doubt on the correctness of this statement.

    42. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by cavreader · · Score: 5, Informative

      The fact is they have had a nuclear capability for a while and have proven they are not trigger happy and they are capable of securing the nuclear weapons. Check out a map and see just how small a country it is. Any nuclear attack on Gaza or the West Bank would be the equivalent of nuking themselves.
      They did use the threat of nuclear retaliation in 1973 but that was a ruse to get Nixon to take his head out of his ass and re-supply the IDF. They purposely let leak through unencrypted radio transmissions that they were activating their Samson plan which was the code for arming their nukes on their F-4's and Jericho missiles. Not that they really needed to do so since they had already pushed the Syrians and Egyptians back into their own countries. Nixon didn't want to get involved becuase at the time the Soviets were heavily invested with the Egyptians and Syrians and he was afraid of escalating the problem.

      The 73 war is probably the most humiliating loss the Arab countries have suffered in all their conflicts with Isreal. The Arabs had total surprise, overwhelming numerical advantages, Soviet wire guided anti-tank missiles, night vision scopes with IR targeting in their tanks (again thanks to the Soviets), and advanced first line SAM systems once again courtesy of the Soviets. They also came up with an ingenious way of tackling the gigantic sand berms using water cannons so their tanks could advance after crossing the canal. Too bad the Israelis held off 1000+ tanks off in the Golan Heights for 24 hours using only 37 Israeli tanks because of very poor tactical leadership on the Syrian side. They held long enough for reinforcements to arrive using the landscape, superb shoot and re-position tank tactics, and main gun range superiority. The Egyptians advanced without re-positioning their SAM coverage and thus became vulnerable to air attacks and they some how allowed the Israelis to float a temporary bridge across the canal and flank then en-circle the Egyptian army in the Sinai. I can only assume someone on the Egyptian side fell asleep during the Israeli crossing. The funny thing is the school books in Egypt make it sound like Egypt won that war when they clearly didn't.
      If there is any Marshall plan in the middle east it should be left entirely to the Arab league not any western countries. The Arab countries have booted the Palestinians out of their countries and prohibited migration since day 1. They had pretty good reasons seeing as how the Palestinians in Jordan initiated a coup to remove the government as soon as they got there. The Palestinians were cheerleaders for Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait and after that war Kuwait evicted close to 100,000 Palestinians out of the country. Isreal is not and never has been the sole responsible party for palestinian suffering. It started with the inept British making promises to anyone who would listen to prop up their empire after WW1 and during WW2, Egypt abandon Egyptian citizens in the area now known as Gaza during their retreat in 67, and Jordan did the same thing resulting in the West Bank enclave.
      The Iraqis and Afghan's have already had and wasted their Marshall Plan. In both cases the US and others removed the governments that were victimizing their own citizens and gave them a chance to rebuild their country in relative safety and they pissed it all away with in-fighting, bureaucratic corruption, and killing those trying to give them at least a fighting chance to build a better country. If the Japanese were able to swallow their pride and work with the US after WW2 I don't see how others could not do the same. Because this whole mess is more about Arab wounded pride than any land or religious disputes.

    43. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as long as you don't live in their god given land.

    44. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by NicBenjamin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Of course if Israel offered Abbas everything on the Jordanian side of the Green Line (including Jerusalem), Abbas'd be able to crush Hamas like a bug. But Israel's internal politics mean that anyone who proposes that, or anything remotely like that, gets crushed in the next election.

      In other words Israel isn't asking for a simple recognition of it's right to exist, it's asking for recognition of it's conquest of East Jerusalem (plus probably some more territory). That's a whole different kettle of fish.

    45. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was a combined economic power, of which the the US had the major part, that won that war. Allies simply outproduced Germany in all areas: more tanks, more guns, more trucks and jeeps, more airplanes, more ships, more of everything. Soldier's life does not amount to much in a war unless he is armed, fed, clothed, transported to the right place etc. There were many critical war products that USSR did not or could not produce that the US delivered under the lend-lease agreements.

    46. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      I guess you didn't drive to work yesterday.

    47. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      And in fact the Soviets didn't win, the Germans lost. If they didn't trip on their stupid fucking ideology so much we would have all been truly fucked. Instead of enlisting the aid of the tens of thousands of Ukrainians who thought that at last they were free of Stalin and wanted to help, the Germans killed them and razed their fucking land. Not how to win friends and influence enemies. They could have had a huge army of volunteers willing to kick Stalin's ass. But alas, the Ukrainians were just another inferior race needing to be denigrated and destroyed. You'd think Hitler hired retard bozo chicken farmers to run his "elite" army or something. Not that there is anything wrong with farming chickens. Just if they're Nazi chickens.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    48. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ugh, equating the Qu'ran to Mein Kampf? Seriously?

      For many generations Muslims and Jews coexisted peacefully, and Muslims did not consider Jews to be any more their enemies or opponents than they did any other group. In fact the Qu'ran speaks well of the Jews. The recent tensions between Muslims and Jews can be traced directly to the way the modern state of Israel was founded.

      This is a complicated topic, but to disparage Islam as inherently anti-Semitic, or to equate Muslims with Nazis is disgusting. I have great sympathy for the sufferings and the struggles of the Jewish people both in Israel and elsewhere. I can understand why the people who founded the modern state of Israel thought that it was the necessary and right thing to do, but none of that takes away the legitimate objections that the people who were living in the region prior to the founding of Israel had to its establishment. No amount of sympathy for the struggles of the Jewish people can eliminate the legitimate grievances of the Palestinian people whose own struggles are very much a direct result of how Israel was founded.

      The current leadership of the Palestinian people may not be "good" or "nice" people (then again, they may be people doing their best to do right as they see it in the situation they have found themselves in), but that doesn't make them anything like Nazis. Anyone who would make that comparison is a simple minded jerk with no credibility.

      I'm not a Muslim or a Jew, I don't have a dog in this fight, except as a human being who doesn't view either side as the embodiment of evil or of good.

    49. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by cavreader · · Score: 1

      Stalingrad and Leningrad are not in Germany. They suffered such grievous casualties because they basically used peasants in human wave attacks against German armor and infantry. They basically had more bodies than the Germans had bullets and once winter set in the Germans could not resupply.

    50. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      Except....that said oppression, is merely a small people group, with a small territory. That they've been pushed into after being killed almost every where else.

      And let's not forget, it was still popular to kill Jews in the mid-east before Israel even existed. Just saying.

    51. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you heard of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip? Your statement is nothing but propaganda trash and intentionally ignores the crimes that the nation of Israel actively and purposefully commits.

    52. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      And might add, that there have always been a remnant of Jews in the region.

    53. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      Please cite an example?

    54. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      You totally lost me at "brilliant" and "New York Times".

    55. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      So you, mad at the religious for being intolerant, propose to kill them all.
      Bravo, sir, bravo! A finer troll I've never met.

    56. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      Good story. Now have a look at the German inventory expended against USSR and awake.

    57. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the land weren't occupied at all, I could see there being reasonable and justified claim to a piece of land, but 2000 years is an awfully long time. Having any sort of historical/ancestral claim to land take precedence over an existing population's is putting the cart before the horse.

    58. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      Because, they've been repeatedly attacked conventionally AND NOT USED THEM!!!!

    59. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You don't think their population would distance themselves from the crazies for a chance at a good life?

      Let's take Iran as an example. Most Iranians would like an excellent life. They defy their government and install satellite dishes and understand what global (secular) civilization has to offer. They would like a piece of that. Unfortunately due to the 'velyat a faqir' the Iranian Government treats its citizens as wards of the state (that is, everyone is treated as if they were an orphan or mentally insane) and the government strictly controls what they can wear, what they can say, where they can do, who they meet. Besides the security services (nb: you never want to go to Evin prison, ever) the government enlists radical thugs called Basiji to brutalize anyone not following the government line. The people of Iran wanted to install democracy in 2009 after fraudulent elections and protested despite the brutality of the Basiji, but the government ruthlessly put down the protests and, shamefully, the West did absolutely nothing to support the large democracy movement. Iran wants to export this Shia-based system worldwide, whether you want it or not.

      Now in Gaza the situation is similar, but not exactly the same. Most Palestinian just want a decent life - although they are prepared to forego one in order to destroy Israel (since it is commanded to kill Jews, Christians and unbelievers in many many places in the Qur'an and Hadiths; so they are just being good Muslims and obeying their scriptures; the 'bad' muslims are the one who refuse Allah's commandments to kill unbelievers [fortunately, many muslims are good people and defy their faith in this way]). Hamas used to be buddies with Iran but they fell out over Syria. Hama follows the Sunni branch of Islam so is opposed to the Shia branch of Iran (usually that would mean they would be mortal enemies; but they put this aside temporarily to eliminate Israel before spreading the 'Caliphate' to the rest of the World).

      The Israelis are exactly as you describe. They already have McDonalds, TVs and a very very modern society. Their government is influenced by, but not controlled by the crazies (Hasidim) that cause much of the 'settler' issues in the West Bank. Otherwise, Israel is a normal 'Western' society and responds in what most Slashdotters would consider a rational manner to irrational circumstances. That is, people who will make temporary truces but don't recognize the UN resolution that recognizes Israel in the western Palestine region of the former Ottoman Empire (the eastern part is now called 'Jordan' and can be considered the true 'Palestinians'). Note: Palestine has never (yet) been an actual country, it was a Roman name for a region of their empire which has remained as a region/province in additional empires throughout history. Note also the bulk of what are reported by the media as 'Palestinians' actually are relatively recent immigrants from Egypt or Sudan (within a couple of generations). Curiously: when tracing family history back many Israelis have more generations born in Palestine than 'Palestinians' - this is an 'open secret' (eg. Yasser Arafat was actually of Egyptian decent; and Gaza was Egyptian in antiquity before it passed to the Ottoman Empire).

      See, this is all pretty complicated. They may want McDonalds and new stuff but there is so much history of the area that just about anyone can make any claim. Only those who are prepared to look forward will make progress (eg. the Israelis) and those who get hung up on history (Hamas & Iran) will resist progress and modernity and instead cling (with force) to obsolescent ideas.

    60. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Holladon · · Score: 1

      How do you know that?

      Because, whatever else you can say about Israel, they aren't completely fucking stupid (as their resistance to Anonymous, who's taken down their share of powerful folks, tends to demonstrate), and they know that using nukes would piss off the United States. Even dogs know better than to bite the hand that feeds (simmer down, I'm not saying Israelis are dogs -- they're infinitely smarter than the US, quite frankly).

    61. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason Israel assassinated Ahmed Jabari, was because under Jabari, Hamas has been launching missiles into Israel for well over a year. It's been over a 1,000 now. Attacking Tel Aviv instead of just bombarding the southern communities has been a bit of a final straw. Of course, Hamas defenders would argue that Hamas wouldn't be attacking Israel over and over again if Israel ... and that would be unrealistic at best. Hamas isn't the only militant group in Gaza that's committed to an end to the Israeli state, and this is not to suggest that all Palestinians are supporting Hamas. There are other groups that are honoring the peace. Hamas' problem is that they don't have a seat at the table, and everybody wants to be a power broker, including Hamas. There are other even more militant groups fighting for the mindshare of the extremist side, and Hamas is beginning to get marginalized. It's hasn't been as simple as one side leaving the other alone and acknowledging a mutual right to exist for a very long time.

    62. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Holladon · · Score: 1

      They had a serious head start on us as late as around, say, 1400.

      "They"? "Us"? Are you even Israeli? And, even if you are, how, exactly, is it that you, personally, have been at war for over 600 years? Do you have a picture of a decrepit skeleton hiding in your attic?

      Yes, I'm obviously being snarkily melodramatic, but seriously, this shit right here is EXACTLY how fuckbeds of crazy devolve into permanent warzones. What are you, the fucking Capulets and Montagues?? Jesus Christ, humanity.

    63. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For a long time Islamic civilization was well ahead of the barbarous West. The principle of 'ijtihad' allowed all sorts of interesting questions to be debated and examined. However, the Caliphs at that time in Baghdad perceived this as a threat to their rule and squashed all inquiry by force. That unquestioning of Islam continues to this day, and Muslims also attempt to extend this political decision to Westerners too (eg. the moves in the UN to prohibit Free Speech by not being able to question any religion). It is this suppression of Free Speech and enquiry that allowed the West to leapfrog ahead of the more advanced Islamic cultures.

      It is interesting to note that a similar situation occurred with China. China was far ahead of the West but an emperor decided that all the strange things and ideas his fleets were bringing back were a bad idea and China turned inward. Meanwhile, the chaotic factions of the West strove to out-compete each other and made massive progress in all areas (ideological, social, technical, medical, scientific, political).

      The ability to question and overturn orthodoxy is incredibly important for progress. This is why Free Speech must be protected. Especially speech that challenges conventional views. Ideas that make 'normal' people uncomfortable should not be suppressed (only overt hate speech should be suppressed, but this is very a narrow area). Progress is not possible without it - so watch out America and Europe, your 'Political Correctness' could well get you eclipsed just as the Muslim and Chinese cultures were at one point. As long as a society has Free Speech and a Free Press then it has a considerable competitive advantage over those that don't. eg. until China opens up its thinking it will *always* lag behind the West in innovation, no matter how much tech it steals; the Muslim world will remain stuck at that point in time in which the Caliph closed free speech as long as violence and coercion are used to prevent new ideas that approach blasphemy.

    64. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 0

      This is a complicated topic, but to disparage Islam as inherently anti-Semitic, or to equate Muslims with Nazis is disgusting.

      It's not disparaging, it's a simple statement of fact.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    65. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Killing many more innocent people of the opposing faction in retaliation for one's victims was a distinctive mark of the Nazis during WW2. Israel shouldn't become a monster to fight another one.

      "In retaliation"? What part of "removing enemy's capacity to make war" don't you understand? 1) Terrorists fire rockets on Israel. 2) Israel makes steps to prevent further rockets from being fired. Numbers of victims don't matter here. You don't strive for a prescribed number of victims. Roosevelt didn't when he declared war on the Japanese.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    66. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by saleenS281 · · Score: 1

      Ya, you missed the part where the Marshall plan didn't include the allies displacing half the residents of Germany taking over their homes and businesses and handing them over to their own citizens. They also didn't spend the next 50 years expanding that occupation. Outside of that, great analogy.

    67. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      You are right, Israel should not become a monster. Fortunately they are not becoming a monster. They have been subjected to over 12,000 rocket and mortar attacks over the last decade (we're not including the shootings, stabbings, running over by busses, homicide bombers, anti-tank missiles etc that have been used on their soldiers and civilians *in Israeli territory* as well). No civilized society could take that without doing something to protect its citizens. Israel is now responding but is trying to do so in a manner that protects its civilians *and* Palestinian citizens (despite the utterly cynical and disgusting tactic of Hamas using many of its own citizens as 'human shields').

      Israel now has the opinion that the Palestinian region should have a Two State Solution (Palestine and Israel) and hope for a permanent peace treaty.

      Hamas (and many of its supporting countries; Iran, Sudan etc) wants a One State Solution - where every non-Muslim inhabitant of the Palestine region is either slaughtered, exiled or enslaved as a 'dhimmi'. The Hamas Charter states this as a goal (please go read it). In fact, according to the Qur'an and hadiths it is the duty of every Muslim to carry this out. Only the 'bad' muslims who are 'good people' don't do this. Hamas would sacrifice its own people and suffer appalingly because it thinks it is inevitable that they'll be able to kill or evict every last Jew (because it is written in many places in the Qur'an and hadiths as this is what has to happen to bring on Judgement Day).

      So I ask you now, do you think Israel is a monster when faced with such a philosophy?
      should it passively allow its citizens to be slaughtered?
      should it continually concede temporary ceasefires it knows will not last to an opponent who never wants a permanent peace (according to its Charter)?
      now you know this, who do you think could in fact be monstrous?

      Finally, I'll leave you with a wonderful quote which explains why there is never peace in the region (or world):

      With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

      Steven Weinberg (a physicist :) ), quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999

      Peace - but not at any price :)

    68. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      These people did nothing to squander a way their lead, they were not even thought of at that time. Most of them were born after the 1948 formation of the current state of Israel.

      I am talking about the Middle East as a whole. Israel surely isn't to blame for Saudi Arabia, Iran etc. having dickheads in positions of power.

      That works both ways, the Arabs aren't to blame for Israel having ultra wing nationalist bozos for leaders.

      You can't see how being born into poverty in an occupied area not even acknowledged as part of the greater State, would lead to this sort of thing?

      I can see that. They ought to blame their ancestors, who were unwilling to get 80 % of the former BMfP. They wanted it all, they waged multiple wars of aggression to that end, they failed at that and now their lives suck. Well, tough luck, cowboy.

      Yeah right and thus Palestinian Arabs deserve living in an apartheid state, being treated like lower forms of life and have their houses bulldozed and their land confiscated whenever Israeli 'settler' decide they need to build a new colony? Do you have any idea who you sound like?

    69. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by amirulbahr · · Score: 0
      BS. Why is Israel expanding settlements, taking more Palestian land, and imposing ever harsher restrictions on them? They are the aggressor and the occupying power. Maybe a good starting point would be for the Israeli administration to acknowledge Palestinian's right to a dignified existence and take steps to allow that to happen.

      Here's another point of view for you to consider: http://www.jonathan-cook.net/2012-11-18/why-gaza-must-suffer-again/

    70. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by bug1 · · Score: 0

      Please cite an example?

      Do your own research, if you cant see it then nobody can help you to see it.

    71. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Israel has in recent times committed to retaliation-only policy, and they've done a good job of standing by it. Historically, Israel has done little aggression (yes, I'm aware of the 6 day war, and from Israel's perspective it was a war started by Egypt, even though the first military action was by Israel). But they've held the burden of The UK's aggression in setting up Israel. Israel wanted nothing but to be left alone, and has always acted consistently with that stated goal.

    72. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by isorox · · Score: 0

      You know, if the Middle East suddenly magically disappeared, I wouldn't give a damn. Hell, I'd probably celebrate. No more phantasmagoric indoctrination for future generations? Yay for that!

      But I'd keep Israel. They do useful stuff, such as new Intel microarchitectures, and ICQ, and PHP...OK, scratch the last two. But at least they export tangibly beneficial stuff and not armies of loonies.

      Much of the middle east exports Oil. That's a tangible, beneficial, product.

      Saudi Arabia is one place which does this. They also export loonies that fly planes into buildings. That's why we invaded them.

    73. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by AK+Marc · · Score: 0

      Can I sue my ancestors for rebelling against the UK? We'd be better off now as a colony of the UK than what we've done in the 200+ years since independence. Look at the quality of the last 2 presidents, both reelected. We are in bad shape and only getting worse. Can we petition to the UK for colonyship? I never signed on for the debt I was born into.

    74. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A reflection of military strategy, not contribution. To the Soviets a single soldier was expendable. The US has a different approach. You also discount the billions of dollars that the US gave the Soviets to finance military production.

      Really? The US did not treat it's soldiers as an expendable resource? Is that why they sent obsolete Sherman tanks to pick a fight with German Tigers and Panthers until the end of the war and accepted loss ratios ranging from between five and ten to one? Allied aid helped but the Soviets did what they did mostly on their own and it is a fact that without the Soviets soaking up the majority of the punishment the Wehrmacht was able to dish out the Western Allies could never have dreamt of invading Western Europe. If it wasn't for the Soviets, Britain would today be an outpost of the free world on the borders of the Third Reich, a kind of European Taiwan.

    75. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Beemer+T · · Score: 1
      Israels actions of the last fifty years cast very strong doubt on the correctness of this statement.

      You mean perhaps Egypt leaving Israel alone, and Israel withdrawing from Sinai, and Israel/Egypt enjoying decades of being 'left alone'? The relationship has been cold and tense at times, but definitely 'left alone'.

    76. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      The Qur'an and hadiths are terribly inconsistent on the matter (after all, it was written by humans - there is zero evidence that it came from a divine source [eg. it is limited in content to that what a poorly educated man of the time knew; no talk about how the stars are the same as our sun, or how it looks like Opportunity is about to announce microbial life on Mars - or anything that a divine agent would know that a man of that time didn't]).

      But your statement is actually completely untrue. The fact that the Qur'an commands muslims to kill or evict all unbelievers from their lands is mentioned many times. Mohammed himself commanded many such slaughters that are recorded in the Qur'an.

      Here is an example for you (even more explicit and unambiguous than Mein Kampf, if you ask me):

      Mohammad taught Muslims to murder Jews.

      Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176: Narrated by 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.'" Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177: Narrated by Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

      There are more at plenty of sites like the following. All good Muslims *must* carry the following out (just as all good Christians and Jews must stone idolators and adulterers - not to do so makes them good humans but very very bad in the eyes of their religion; defying God/YHWH/Allah, after all): http://www.truthandgrace.com/muslimkillcommands.htm

      The real problem is not just Islam (although it is the worst). All of the monotheistic religions command such barbarism. If you consider yourself a true Jew/Muslim/Christian you are supposed to do the sick, evil and wicked things demanded by your deity. This is what makes these religions (and others) so bad - they make otherwise morally good people do terrible, terrible things.

      I'm not a Muslim or a Jew, I don't have a dog in this fight, except as a human being who doesn't view either side as the embodiment of evil or of good.

      Actually you do have a 'dog in this fight' - everyone does! If you believe in freedom and the values of the Enlightenment then you *must* oppose the evil preachments of religion and the fact that any religion that wants to impose itself on your life or the life of anyone who doesn't want it must be resisted by all moral, civilized and rational people.

      So don't be a pussy. Don't appease. Oppose all these evil people and their evil preachments - it is the rational thing to do :)

    77. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sorry, no to YOU. It is their ancestral homeland and they were forced to live in exile for 2,000 years while their land was continuously occupied by foreigners (mostly jihaders and crusadists). The last independent indigenous state there was Jewish. They definitely have a right to be there.

      So by your logic the Lenape have the right to kick everyone out of Manhattan and Celts have the right to kick everyone out of England. How many Jews live in Manhattan, England, or other areas where the indigenous population was ejected?

      Sorry, but the right to live somewhere starts with your birth. If you were born there then you have a right to live there. But if you are descended from people who lived there 20 or 30 centuries ago, well tough shit because other people were born in between. Their right to live there because they were born there outweighs your desire to connect with the birthplace your ancestors left 20 centuries before.

    78. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is what kids are thought in schools these days... A nation of brainwashed cretins...

    79. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by slashmydots · · Score: 1

      That's definitely not correct. They obviously had internal squabbles since the minority of them support violent terrorists. Israel is no peach exactly but Hezbollah are always the aggressors and most violent and most hated throughout the world. Internal squabbles mean attempts to blow each others' covers so they probably just put a lid on it and went back to being stupid somewhere else.
      That or they're primarily overblown script kiddies. In fact fuck it, they're script kittehs lol. Maybe they should stick to making lolcat photos.

    80. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by sd4f · · Score: 1

      All they need to do acknowledge that Israel is a legitimate nation..

      But herein lies the problem, a catch 22, if they acknowledge that israel is a legitimate nation, then they lose their claim to their territory. It's kind of hard for palestinians to ackowledge legitimacy of israel, when israel wants to swallow up all of the palestinian territory.

      For a nation cobbled together on the proviso of a group of people having nowhere to go when being persecuted, this situation is tragically ironic!

    81. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by murdocj · · Score: 1

      Well, Hamas doesn't acknowledge Israel's right to exist on any borders, and I'm not sure Abbas could "crush" Hamas. He didn't do so well the last time the two clashed.

    82. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      Yeah right and thus Palestinian Arabs deserve living in an apartheid state

      No, they don't. But they can blame the surrounding Arab countries for treating them like pawns in a political game of chess. It's funny how in 1948, the Arab countries 1) claimed that Israelis robbed the Arabs out of their property, consequently 2) expelled all Jews from their lands, 3) stole their (Jewish) property worth billions of 1948 US Dollars and 4) didn't give them to the dispossessed Arabs. Instead they started pointing fingers and saying "Look how poor they are now, Israelis should take care of them".

      Of course it didn't occur to them (yeah, greed is a bitch, ain't it?) that if they really think that the Arabs were dispossessed illegally, they could fix the situation with the Jewish money more than sufficiently, since the stolen Jewish property was vastly greater then the "stolen" Arab property (sometimes the dispossessions of Arabs were questionable, sometimes they were not, mind you).

      have their houses bulldozed and their land confiscated whenever Israeli 'settler' decide they need to build a new colony?

      The Israelis, as far as I'm aware, are demolishing illegal settler colonies. You see, it all boils down to the fact that they could have established their own state sixty years ago and they wouldn't have any problems. But making your a hotbed of terrorism out of your homeland isn't going to get you any favors. You get occupied and controlled so that the attacks are reduced or eliminated. What's so difficult to understand about that?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    83. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by MrSteveSD · · Score: 0

      All they need to do acknowledge that Israel is a legitimate nation. But you know, Hamas won't do that.

      By continuously building settlements in the West Bank in violation of international law, Israel refuses to even recognise basic Palestinian land rights. Yet we expect Palestinians to recognise Israel?

    84. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Ya, you missed the part where the Marshall plan didn't include the allies displacing half the residents of Germany taking over their homes and businesses and handing them over to their own citizens. They also didn't spend the next 50 years expanding that occupation. Outside of that, great analogy.

      If you have objections against the division of BMfP, you should object to the United Nations and not to Israel. It didn't even exist at that time. Anyway, since you're mentioning it, allowing Soviets to occupy Eastern Germany was criminal. The same goes for Czechoslovakia, Poland etc. If I were at that time and place, I would have gladly waited a bit longer to be liberated by Americans than to have my country turned into a wreck and "liberated" by the Soviet pigs.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    85. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      Do you mean look how much they destroyed. Yeah that was my point.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    86. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by bug1 · · Score: 2

      You mean perhaps Egypt leaving Israel alone, and Israel withdrawing from Sinai, and Israel/Egypt enjoying decades of being 'left alone'? The relationship has been cold and tense at times, but definitely 'left alone'.

      You claim that Israel, having not committing an unprovoked attacked on one specific country (Egypt, which i don't know is true), is proof that Israel wants to leave everyone alone.

      Thats like saying there is one kid the school bully hasnt beat up, so that is proof he isnt a bully.

    87. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You can't be our colony, because since 1945, we have been your colony.

      But, feel free to set up a monarchy and try to sort your problems out in the traditional British way. You can't very well do any worse than you're already doing. Just make sure to veto the Bush family from taking the throne.

    88. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      "They"? "Us"?

      All right, I'll rephrase that. After, say, 9th century, the Islamic world (or at least its large parts) was considerably more advanced than their Judeo-Christian neighbors. They could have built what GGP describes completely on their own...only they didn't. The religious stuff eventually caused them to fall behind. Now they seem to be angry at the Western world, which is hardly to blame for most of their ills. Better?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    89. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 1

      Stalingrad and Leningrad are not in Germany. They suffered such grievous casualties because they basically used peasants in human wave attacks against German armor and infantry. They basically had more bodies than the Germans had bullets and once winter set in the Germans could not resupply.

      The Soviet forces suffered heavy losses due to Stalin's purges of the Red Army. Prior to the purges the Red Army was one of the most progressive armies in the world. The Soviet Union put tanks based on Walter Christie's designs into production when the US Army turned him down and they were flying monoplane fighters with a retractable landing gear that could have given Bendix Trophy race planes a run for their money when the USAAC was still convinced biplanes were the way of the future. The Germans and the British often get the credit for inventing modern mechanised warfare, the Germans in particular get a lot of brownie points for their blitzkrieg tactics but it is all to often forgotten that these blitzkrieg tactics were developed in cooperation with Soviet military thinkers in the Soviet Union during the Weimar Republic. The idea that Soviet tactics consisted mainly of human wave attacks is a myth just like it is a myth that Polish lancers charged German panzers. Human wave attacks were employed by the Soviet army in 1941-42 but commanders like Zhukov put a stop to it pretty quickly. This was incidentally the same Zhukov who won a model blitzkrieg victory over a force of 75.000 japanese troops at Nomonhan in 1939 destroying an entire IJA devision and gutting the Kwantung Army's air forces in the process. A whole year's worth of production by Nakajima was consumed simply to make good Japanese fighter losses against the Soviets at Nomonhan. I seem to remember it took the Allies a while to replicate this achievement.

      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
    90. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      Very true about the wounded pride. But I do say, as a first gen american of iraqi descent, the people where my blood come from are seriously entrenched in very old ways and generally stuck in the past and have a closed minded mentality. Religon is seriously part of society in the middle east as it is integrated with the culture. It does not help that most governments in that region are completely corrupted. It will take serious change from the people themselves to have an effect 50 years from now. The state of things just saddens me.

      --
      Balderdash!
    91. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure the reverse can be said of the Palestinians, too. Why can't Israel just get the fuck out of the West Bank?

    92. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by AK+Marc · · Score: 0

      Last I heard, the US is still, from the UK perspective, a colony in revolt. The UK never surrendered to the USA, and so the issue is unresolved. But we fought with (along side, not against) the UK in WWI and WWII, so I don't know if anything in those actions officially changed anything between the two.

    93. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by westlake · · Score: 1

      Oh, speaking of Mein Kampf...you *do* know that in the Middle East, it's quite the bestseller?

      What does it take to become a "bestseller?

      According to a September 8, 1999, Agence France Presse report, Mein Kampf ranked sixth on the bestseller list compiled by Dar el-Shuruq bookshop in Ramallah, with sales of about 10 copies a week.

      Mein Kampf in the Arabic language

      Ramallah has a population of about 25,000 and is the de facto capital of the PNA. In an argument like this, I really prefer to see hard numbers and not decade-old anecdotes.

    94. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2

      No amount of sympathy for the struggles of the Jewish people can eliminate the legitimate grievances of the Palestinian people whose own struggles are very much a direct result of how Israel was founded.

      yes, the jews struggled. hard! the whole world was against them and nearly wiped them out. having a homeland ensures some bit of safety that this won't happen again.

      now, compare that to the founding of the US where the europeans were NOT 'about to be wiped out' and were certainly not running for their lives. and yet, we have this thing called 'manifest destiny' and its taught in every elementary/grade school.

      do we give our land back to the indians?

      why not?? according to your logic, we 'stole' their land and so we have been occupying it illegally for hundreds of years.

      you ready to give your house and land back to the older owners?

      hmmm?

      (well, then. shut the fuck up, ok. you want to keep what's yours but you want to insist that others give hard-won land back? fuck you!)

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    95. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Larryish · · Score: 2

      Seen on 4chan:

      I rewted jew.com! All your bagel are belong to us!!!1 LOLK

    96. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by superwiz · · Score: 1

      You don't think their population would distance themselves from the crazies for a chance at a good life?

      Islam was spread by the sword. So no. As long as the crazies are in charge, it would take a lot of blood before the population would the crazies out. And most people prefer a limited diet and shelter than watching their daughters and sisters raped and murdered as a lesson in what it means to disavow Islam.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    97. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by superwiz · · Score: 2

      Pray tell, what did they do to squander it the way they did?

      It's not what did. It's what they failed to do -- progress. They have not developed rational thought and discourse. They had the skill and tools for it, ie the components required, but they didn't put it together to create the whole -- the Renaissance.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    98. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Do you tell a rape victim to win the heart and mind of the rapist? Or do you tell her to use an overwhelming force of a spray or a gun? Israel was getting raped. It struck back.. It won. I am pretty sure all normal people would blame the situation on the rapists.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    99. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was offered to Arafat at Camp David, and he didn't take it as he benefited from the status quo and wanted to maintain it..

    100. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Germany gave up then America worked to death or starved a huge number of survivors and pows. I don't think the Palestinians will like that idea.

    101. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nearly all of the well known terrorists figureheads have had very good lives. All of the 9/11 hijackers had college degrees. The current head of Al-Qaeda is a surgeon. Osama Bin Laden was a multi-millionaire. Azzam the American was born in Berkly, California, and left for the middle east in his 20's. Anwar al-Awlaki was providing support for known terrorists while living as a citizen of the US. Nidal Malik Hasan was an Army Major when he shouted allahuakbar and shot people up.

      Nearly all of them have lived in the US legitimately, as well as numerous parts of Europe. Not only have they had a chance at a good life, they lived a good life.

      I somehow doubt AC, McDonalds, and TV's would pacify them.

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    102. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about we ask the germans themselves how important were each theater of the war?
      They dedicated more than 80% of their resources to fight against the soviets. Africa, Italy, etc. were just sideshows under a single, unimportant command. The main show for the germans was the war with the soviet union.

      Stop spreading lies and get educated.

    103. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by NicBenjamin · · Score: 2

      Well, Hamas doesn't acknowledge Israel's right to exist on any borders, and I'm not sure Abbas could "crush" Hamas. He didn't do so well the last time the two clashed.

      If he had Tanks, and the Israelis were willing to let him cross the Negev, Hamas would not be able to hold Gaza. If he had a permanent peace deal with Israel that included the return of Jerusalem Jordan/Egypt/etc. would give him all the tanks he could possibly want.

      Most of the Palestinian people know academically that a peace deal won't get them anything but symbolic BS in East Jerusalem, so if Abbas showed up with a deal that includes owning the whole damn place they will love him. Which means that he'd be very hard to get rid of. Yeah, in the long term Fatah could fuck everything up and be replaced with Hamas (strictly speaking, fucking up seems to be the only thing Fatah is good at). But in the long-term anything can happen. Hamas could change it's mind, the Palestinians could create yet another terror-group which has a new anti-Israel charter, etc. So that objection applies to any peace deal.

      The problem with my plan is not that it wouldn't work as well the Israelis agreed to it, it's that the Israelis will never agree to it. They want Hamas to change it's charter so it's no longer dedicated to destroying them, but they also want to keep East Jerusalem, guarantees of military superiority, etc. I'm not saying whether they're right or wrong to demand that stuff on this thread, I'm just saying they are demanding it.

    104. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      what the west does not understand (or does not WANT to) is that there can only be a stand-off, for a short time.

      this is, down deep, a war on ideology.

      not about land.

      not about who was where, at what time in history.

      its about a group of people hell bent on making the entire world all islamic.

      and so, if they are not 'coming for you' in the first wave, be sure that its in their long range goals to convert you or kill you.

      of course, if you are a good dhimmi, they might kill you last.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    105. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Flamebait because the US saved the planet in WWI and WWII (though the US response to WWI caused WWII). Anything that marginalizes the US participation in WWII is flamebait. We saved the planet. Hitler was going to lose the 2-front war regardless of our participation, but we saved them. China had beat back Japan before, but wouldn't have managed this time unless we saved them.

    106. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      there is SO MUCH land that the arabs could give to their brothers.

      they choose not to. in fact, they close the borders and hate the palestinians! they call them dogs.

      it would be like living in a small new england style state (size wize), having an entire 'friendly' country that even speaks your language available to you and yet you cry bloody murder that THIS land is what you want. THIS land. we don't want that or that or the other, we want THIS.

      so, where do jews go for safety, to live and be left alone?

      who, in the world, offers them safety?

      no one. that's who.

      israel will never just 'walk into the sea' to please the moslems.

      there can't be a peace. not a lasting one. not even realistic to try.

      containment is the best you can do and hope the religious nutjobs die off and some more moderate moslems decide to lighten up on all the 'drive jews into the sea' talk.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    107. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      pssst: its not about land. never was. you were fooled. you bought their bullshit story. stupid you.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    108. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      cop-out.

      poster has no data and was called on it.

      poster has no data since there is none (in english; hint hint) that suits his narrative.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    109. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2

      I'd be happy getting rid of Israel just so we could get back to putting our own countries interests first.

      and I thought you were cool, hatta.... ;(

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    110. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The UK had claim on the land before Israel, and is the one that moved out the people there and created Israel. If the displaced have an issue, it's with the UK, not Israel. Not to mention it was the Jewish homeland before the Muslims existed, so claims to "first" don't work.

    111. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by penix1 · · Score: 1

      One man's "terrorist" is another man's "freedom fighter". You will never have peace there until both sides can objectively see the other sides issues. Hamas has a definite beef with Israel and Israel has a definite beef with Hamas. Neither side is willing to admit that doing an eye for an eye, a tit for tat is the wrong way to achieve their goals. All the finger pointing and blame assigning isn't going to stop the religious war going on there. Meanwhile, people who have nothing to do with either beef are on the receiving end of missiles. All this does is create more animosity and another reason to lob rockets at each other.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    112. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They had thousands of years of oppression at the hands of the Arab occupiers that were there since the last time Israel was a country. In point of fact, there has never at any point in time been a country called Palestine, but they still act like it and their Arab supporters that never once before thought of letting them be their own country now demand that Israel do what they never would.

      But more to the point, you know what also happened A LOT during those 60 most recent years? Rockets and suicide bombers sent by the Palestinians to try and drive out the Israelis. Every single time there's been a peace accord or truce, the Palestinians have been the ones to break it. Guess they must just like getting pulverized because they still haven't learned anything after 60 years.

    113. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by bug1 · · Score: 1

      poster has no data since there is none (in english; hint hint) that suits his narrative.

      By the poster, do you mean me (the parent), who lives only speaks english, and whos narrative is to make the point that Israel has been aggressive in the last 50 years.

      I take the Hint as indication that your are somewhat discriminatory in your views on this topic.

      If you cannot find one case in the last 50 years where Israel has been the aggressor (which is not to say others havent been the aggressor at other times) then no amount of data would be accepted by the likes of you.

      There is no point showing data to one who does not understand Logic.

    114. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Problem being, these attacks came from the other settlement, the Gaza Strip, on the other side of the country. Despite what's happening in the West Bank, they don't fire rockets at Israel, and Israel is a lot more open to negotiations with the West Bank. The Gaza Strip, on the other hand, is basically a Hamas stronghold, and the only way for Israel to negotiate with them is on the same terms Hamas chose: rockets.

      Honestly, they need to divide those two zones yet again so that the West Bank doesn't have to acknowledge the Gaza Strip as part of the same government. Then at least the West Bank can start working towards a real peace deal with the Israelis, because Hamas never will.

    115. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish this could get a score above 5. This is possibly the longest coherent, intelligent and insightful post I've seen on a hot-button subject on Slashdot in...ever.

    116. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you were lost at the very last sentence? Not bad I would say.

    117. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Of course, they did vote Hamas in as their gov't because Abbas [the PA?] was doing such a craptastic job. And then Hamas went with the always popular "Well, we don't need these pesky election thingys anymore"

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    118. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Allies would have won whether Germany attacked the Soviet Union or not. This is because of The Bomb. The German design was so flawed that there was at least a 2 year gap between them and the US if they had suddenly stolen all the US A-bomb secrets in 1945 and had an unmolested industrial capability. There is simply no plausible defense that could have allowed them to survive.

    119. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holy land.. Your mental illness needs treatment.

    120. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea I'm getting fucking sick of this "proportionalism" talk. The whole fucking world is anti-semitic, it's the reason we had to move and go live in a glorified fortress in the first place. Now that we have a country of our own, whether the Muslims like it or not, we're staying put, and if they can't get their rocket firing terrorist population under control, we'll flaten their neighbouhoods and kill every last one of them until we have peace. Either by them submitting, or by them being dead.

      Fuck them, and fuck the rest of the world. Nobody has a right to stop us, nor could they even if they did.

    121. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1

      Gilad Sharon, the son of former Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon, has called for Israel to 'flatten' Gaza as the US flattened the Japanese city of Hiroshima in 1945 with an atomic bomb.

      Writing in The Jerusalem Post Sharon, an activist for the opposition Kadima party, said: “The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren’t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences.

      "We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.

      "There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing.

      http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/flatten-gaza-like-hiroshima-says-ariel-sharons-son-gilad-16239945.html#ixzz2Cpdw9FJh

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    122. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh that's an easy one, you just need get the Palistinians to stop teaching their children in schools that Jews are evil and that killing them gets you super bonus points for the after life. Go ahead, give that a shot.

    123. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and Independent States; that he treats with them as such, and for himself his Heirs & Successors, relinquishes all claims to the Government, Propriety, and Territorial Rights of the same and every Part thereof.

    124. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by drkim · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the palastinians would like to be left alone...

      I want to be left alone too.

      For some reason, every time I fire 700 rockets into my neighbor's house, they call the cops.

      Why won't they just leave me alone?

    125. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by drkim · · Score: 1

      If the land weren't occupied at all, I could see there being reasonable and justified claim to a piece of land, but 2000 years is an awfully long time. Having any sort of historical/ancestral claim to land take precedence over an existing population's is putting the cart before the horse.

      I could see there being reasonable and justified claim to a piece of land, but 64 years is an awfully long time.

      FTFY

    126. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Atheist here.

      Never trust anyone who believes in ANYTHING!

    127. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by drkim · · Score: 1

      Israel's army is made of hotties. http://goo.gl/7HSr1

      Wow! They are hot.

      No wonder the Hamas 'rockets' keep "going off!"

    128. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by peppepz · · Score: 1
      So, is it terrorism or is it war? Against terrorism, you use police, and police operations have precise rules. You wouldn't tolerate the FBI to blow up your house when your family is inside because a terrorist is living on the lower floor, would you?

      Is it war? War has its rules, too. Two countries declare the matter of contention, they attack each other's military forces, and in the end the interested countries make an agreement to stop the hostilities. At the end of the WW2, the Nazi were prosecuted for their war crimes, such as killing 10 innocent persons for each german soldier killed (many of the innocent persons they chose to massacre were Jews). Even some American officers were prosecuted, by the American themselves, for the force they used against the innocent.

      Innocent people are not "enemy's capacity to make war".

    129. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Uhm, Silesia, Pomerania, Memel? Do these names ring a bell?

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    130. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by tsotha · · Score: 1

      You don't think their population would distance themselves from the crazies for a chance at a good life?

      They certainly haven't yet taken the opportunities to do so. When Israel pulled out of Gaza the Palestinians had a great opportunity to improve their lot. The Israelis left behind functional infrastructure, and sunny Gaza sits on the Mediterranean, a perfect spot for resort hotels. The Israelis pulled out because they didn't really want anything to do with these people any more, meaning they were prepared to let the people of Gaza get on with their lives provided there were no kidnappings or ordinance being launched into Israel.

      So how did it turn out? The infrastructure Israel left behind was all torn up and sold for scrap. There was never any attempt to get a tourist industry going, and the people chose Hamas in democratic elections. It's really difficult for me to summon up any sympathy for them. They trade a bright future for... well, what they have.

    131. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by dougisfunny · · Score: 1

      The real problem is not just Islam (although it is the worst). All of the monotheistic religions command such barbarism. If you consider yourself a true Jew/Muslim/Christian you are supposed to do the sick, evil and wicked things demanded by your deity. This is what makes these religions (and others) so bad - they make otherwise morally good people do terrible, terrible things.

      Ignore the fact that it's monotheistic. Those '3' religions are all similarly awful not because of the number of gods, but the specific god, as they're all Abrahamic religions. They all worship the same god.

      --
      This is not the funny you're looking for.
    132. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That basically happened, you know.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/28/world/middleeast/28mideast.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    133. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by peppepz · · Score: 1
      I understand that we can't accept Hamas declaring that they want an Israeli state not to exist. But what is happening now (in facts, not in declarations) is that it's the Palestinian state that doesn't exist, and its people are de facto "dhimmi" in their own land.

      It's unacceptable for Hamas to launch rockets into Israel killing innocent people. But what is also happening now is that Israel's response has killed a number of innocent people many times larger than the terrorists have (I know that making math over the number of victims is disgusting, but it helps to put in perspective who is slaughtered in the end, and please note that we're only talking about the innocent here).

      It's unacceptable for religious fanatics to decide the political course of a nation. But we can find religious fanatics in Israel too, and they're calling for the flattening of Palestine as well. Why, the Bible is full of incitations to violence against the enemies of God, there's no need to go looking for them in the Quran. We just have learnt not to follow religious texts to the letter.

    134. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't have much sympathy for the Palestinians.

      AFAIK the Israeli Arabs have the right to vote. So if they made love and not war, they'd take over after a few generations or at least have a lot of say.

      The Palestinians in Gaza etc don't have the right to vote in the Israeli elections, but hey they want their own leaders and government right?

      An Israeli Arab and even a "Palestinian" is better off in Israel in many many ways than an Egyptian Arab in Egypt. Which Arab country would they do better in? And what happens when they don't have enough oil to sustain their ever growing population? That's why you had the arab spring - population can grow exponentially - "bread and circuses" can't. The dictators were there being the same evil for decades, guess what actually happen?

    135. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by YoungManKlaus · · Score: 1

      lol, good one ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet#Israel and many more

    136. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Indeed. A more meaningful metric is to count the number of Axis casualties inflicted by either side.

      And guess what? 2/3 of all Axis casualties (that's counting Germans and Japanese) occurred on the Eastern Front in Europe. Which is to say, inflicted by the Soviets.

      So, yes, no matter how you spin it, Soviet Union was the country predominantly responsible for kicking Nazi ass in WW2. Yes, there was also lend lease etc. Yes, it helped a lot. No, it wasn't the crucial, irreplaceable contribution to the war effort.

    137. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I know there is a myth that since the Soviet Union took the most casualties that they were the most important fighters for the war. It is simply not true. They just fought inefficiently. The US and Commonwealth countries fought very efficiently winning in Africa, Italy, France, and the Pacific Rim.

      Go ahead and count the number of German casualties in Africa, Italy, France etc. Then count the number of German casualties in the USSR and Eastern Europe. Compare and contrast.

    138. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      There is a difference between marginalizing US role in WW2, and saying that US was not the winner of that war. Which it wasn't - it won the war against Japan, sure, but its contribution to the war on Germany was significantly less than that of the USSR (while still being more major than that of all other allies, however).

      All in all, it's the kills that count. Americans scored about 2 million of Japanese casualties, and then about 1 million more Germans and others in Europe. Soviet Union, on the other hand, can account for 5.5 million in Europe. All other Allies have very meager scores in comparison to those two.

    139. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      there is SO MUCH land that the arabs could give to their brothers.

      I can't believe you just typed all that bullshit with a straight face. Why is it the responsibility of other Arab nations to make up for the land that Israel has stolen? Would you vomit out the same nonsense but in reverse - that Jews living in the U.S. or Europe should open their homes to Israelis to solve the conflict?

      this is, down deep, a war on ideology.

      not about land.

      Of course it's about land. The land that was stolen by a bunch of Zionist immigrants from the people that actually lived there. Which is why you're so eager to make it about everything but land....

    140. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Well, Germany killed more Soviets than all dead Germans combined (including Germans killed by Germans), so by body count, Germany won. Since Germany "lost" then we can assume that body count is not all that counts.

      Germany could have won. All it would have taken for Germany to win is to wait 18 months before invading Russia (avoid a winter campaign and invade England first - not to hold it, but to burn London if there wasn't a surrender), or to have had Japan push west, rather than the preemptive strike against the USA. It's a good thing Hitler was sufficiently insane that he wanted to fail, as he had the war won, if he would only have listened to his advisors.

    141. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Do you tell a rape victim to win the heart and mind of the rapist? Or do you tell her to use an overwhelming force of a spray or a gun? Israel is the rapist. It struck back.. It won. I am pretty sure all normal people would blame the situation on the rapists.

      FTFY. Israel was founded by a bunch of immigrants on other peoples land. Israel expanded that land grab with another following the the 1967 war with a sneak attack on Egypt. Israel has pursued policies of ethnic cleansing and apartheid for decades. Israel bombs who it wants, when it wants, with the protection of the American Security Council veto pen.

      But yeah, its all Hamas's fault. Because they shot a rocket back.

    142. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by tbird81 · · Score: 1

      There'd still be a large number of people on Slashdot blaming society for the rapist's existence, arguing that his sentence was too long, and declaring him innocent.

    143. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      What matters is, of course, not the absolute body count, but the one relative to total population that can be conscripted. That's why it's meaningless to compare the number of casualties inflicted by Germans on Soviets with the number of casualties inflicted by Soviets to Germans - Soviets had, what, three times as much manpower? So Germans would need to achieve a kill ratio of 3:1 to get on par, whereas in practice it was slightly below 2:1 (on average; higher in the first two years of the war, lower in the last two). On the other hand, comparing Soviet and American casualties inflicted on the Axis is meaningful, since they're counted against the same enemy.

      I very much doubt that Germany could have won in the scenario that you describe. Invading UK would have been a very costly affair, and would wear down German forces considerably, all while giving the Soviets another year (and likely more) to build up. In fact, it'd be pretty likely that Stalin would stab Hitler in the back in a couple of months, as soon as he'd think himself ready.

      The reason why Japan didn't mess with Soviets was because Japanese had their asses convincingly handed to them by Zhukov at Khalkhin Gol only several years before that. I doubt Nazis could have convinced them to ignore that evidence.

    144. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      You are correct they worship the same god. I actually have no problem with that. My problem is that they try and enforce their beliefs on others - often by violence/coercion (and almost always by violence if they ever have control of a country). However, these three religions are not the only ones that impose on others (Hindus in the past have also done this, and pretty much every other religion with the sole exception of Jainism).

      Your clarification comment is appreciated, but I actually meant to include the other religions as well - that's why I was vague. Also, despite the fact that Allah/YHWH/God are the same many Muslims are taught that Allah is different as the other religions incorrectly understand the nature the deity (so so the line goes).

    145. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      conversely all Israel has to do is remove their illegal settlements. Someone has to make the first step here, and it should be the ones occupying, rather than the ones being occupied.

    146. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      But what is happening now (in facts, not in declarations) is that it's the Palestinian state that doesn't exist, and its people are de facto "dhimmi" in their own land.

      The Israelis Government would *instantly* recognize a Palestinian State. They thing is the recognition must be mutual and must be accompanied by a perpetual peace treaty. You must ask yourself why it so hard for the Palestinian people to recognize this - and to do so in Arabic (they often do taqiyya and do it in English, but never in Arabic). The Palestinians are not dhimmi at all, because the Israelis don't think they own the Palestinians. The Israelis have zero trust of the Palestinians because of the terrorism in the past. To stop patrolling the borders would invite calamity on the Israeli people - and it would simply be so dumb that no rational person should even propose it.

      But we can find religious fanatics in Israel too, and they're calling for the flattening of Palestine as well.

      Absolutely true. Israel the Government is influenced by these people (it is a proportional democracy so even these crazies have some seats in the Knesset, just as Israeli Arabs have two seats) . However in Israel the government is not controlled by those people - and that makes all the difference in the world compared to Hamas. Israel is a modern democracy. Hamas is militant and millennial theocracy that no longer allows elections (and tended to throw Fatah supporters off buildings when they got into power - check YouTube for this nastiness).

      We just have learnt not to follow religious texts to the letter.

      This is the fundamental difference between Islam and the other two Abrahamic religions. In Islam it is absolutely prohibited to question the Prophet or Islam. To do so invites a death sentence. Salafis are particularly strict in this regard (and the Salafis are gaining influence very very rapidly in the Muslim world). Once upon a time Islam was very progressive but the Caliphs in Baghdad became worried and shut all free enquiry down and Islam has been stuck in this very rigid and unquestioning mindset ever since. Christianity and Judaism for the most part have moved past that (although there are some tiny fringe sects that think differently), and anyone in a Christian or Jewish country can ridicule the clergy or government without fear of death (although in Putin's Russia there is a worrying regression where the State and Church are being somewhat fused into a greater means of control, as Pussy Riot found out).

      So you see, even the contemporary version of Islam is very different to contemporary Christianity and Judaism in terms of outlook and (especially) in terms of the value and purpose of human life. Once you understand this you will understand what is the common element that binds and motivates Al Qaeda, Hamas, Iran, Salafis, Wahhabis etc etc. It is not all Muslims that think this way, but the proportion is so significant, and increasing that you cannot ignore the fact that Islamic religious commandments are bringing strife to many parts of the World (eg. Israel, North Africa, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan/India, the Darfur genocide etc etc).

      The point I'm about to make is super important and most Westerners don't get it. While Hamas is outraged by Israelis actions in the past (eg the terrible settlers etc) there is nothing Israel has done or will do that can appease or conceded enough to Hamas. Hamas is primarily religiously motivated and will not be satisfied until every last unbeliever (especially the Jews) has been evicted from the Palestine region. Their Charter states this explicitly. Again I will repeat it so you understand Hamas' clear motivations (Hamas say it often, but Westerners simply don't want to parse this truth), there is nothing Israel has done or will do that will enable them to satisfy Hamas - the goal of Hamas is simply to remove all unbelievers from Palestine. This is why war breaks out so often - Ha

    147. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Palestine is also the ancestral homeland of palestinians. It's the most brilliantly executed propaganda campaign in human history, along with convincing the world that semitic is a term that applies only to jews (Jews aren't semitic, Hebrews and Arabs are).

    148. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by apol · · Score: 1

      Leave Israel alone, and they'll leave you alone.

      Unless of course you are a Palestinian, having the bad luck to live in the land God gave to the chosen people.

    149. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Invading the UK would have been a bad idea if the point was to hold it (like France), but to hit it, demand a surrender, and burn it if the answer was no would have worked. The UK was only barely holding up at it was, Germany was winning the Battle of Britain The only reason history records it as a win for England is that Germany gave up. Stalin shouldn't invade Germany. If he had, the Soviet Union would never have existed. You win defensive wars more easily than offensive ones, and Stalin would have had a harder time taking Germany than Germany taking Russia.

      Japan wouldn't need to invade Russia to help Germany. Just pacifying China and controlling SE Asia (as they did, the single largest British surrender is still Singapore, right?) The wars were not just in the major countries, but also in the colonies, North Africa, Asia, etc. England is a small country on a tiny island. Without the US support and support from colonies, they wouldn't have lasted as long. So separating the colonies would help break the UK.

      Knowing the US reluctance to enter a war and Hitler's penchant for signing treaties he intends to break, it would have worked out well for him to sign a treaty with the US, sort of a Monroe Doctrine, splitting the world into 3rds, The Americans for the Americans, Europe and Africa for Germany, and Australasia for Japan. I don't think the US would have signed it, but it would have been interesting to have Germany try for something like that. Though the real thing I'd like to see is what would have happened if WWI ended with a treaty similar to WWII, not trying to punish the losers in a manner that hurt so bad.

    150. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by infinitelink · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing you're being sarcastic, but for those who aren't so guessing: http://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/paris.html

      --
      Intelligent idiots are we. | Evil men do not understand justice.
    151. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by infinitelink · · Score: 1

      A few scholars have pointed-out that the Islamic caliphate was, essentially, relying on the intellectual capital of the civilizations they invaded and subordinated, that those proffering questions were heretics by their standard, in general, then and now, and that this was never the ideal situation in Islamic orthodoxy: that their destruction of free thought, discovery, etc., was inevitable, and that they were more scholars than inventors and producers. Similarly, the Chinese long ago had, and even now have, a problem with the powerful trying to limit thought and opinions in the name of protecting the powerful elite and harmony of the state: compare the "liberal" (progressives) actions here and rhetoric about order etc., in indoctrinating youth to be open but "intolerant of intolerance" and make taboo even the hypothetical consideration that things they champion could be "wrong" or even "not preferable": Allan Bloom had a few things to say on that in "The Closing of the American Mind." Older political philosophers/observers noted that if certain doctrines and lack of principles/morals take root, then the ideas themselves of consequence can produce the same effects of coordinated power to oppress, censure, or stigmatize certain thoughts, and gets a people to oppress itself: certain political factions and movements were actually heavy students of these older, "conservative" (and they were) writers/philosophers.

      I would say that societies that don't value free inquiry, thought, expression--even assertion that makes people feel uncomfortable or that may attack the dignity one supposes is one's inherent state or due/rigth are doomed to fall into absurdity, subjection to arbitrary and capricious power careful only for itself, humiliation, oppression, and finally annihilation or defeat at the hands of a nation or nations that does not fall to such "empire" (look up the original meaning). It's why as much as I like bio I can't like Dawkins, while Hitchens rocked for his championing of reason, civility, tolerance (in truth and not just paying it lip service in the name of crushing unwanted ideas and manners of life), and amicability toward all who would speak with him. : )

      --
      Intelligent idiots are we. | Evil men do not understand justice.
    152. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Fortunately, Gilad Sharon is neither an elected representative of the Israeli people, nor is he an appointed official - AFAIK. Or is he? Mind you, loonies are everywhere.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    153. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Uhm, Silesia, Pomerania, Memel? Do these names ring a bell?

      You forgot Sudeten. Or Germans in Bohemia and Moravia in general (at least those that couldn't conclusively prove to be anti-Nazis before and during the war).

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    154. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Invading the UK would have been a bad idea if the point was to hold it (like France), but to hit it, demand a surrender, and burn it if the answer was no would have worked. The UK was only barely holding up at it was, Germany was winning the Battle of Britain

      Was it? Despite numerous repeated attempts, Germans still couldn't achieve air superiority. And air superiority itself one thing, while land invasion (of a heavily fortified island!) is a different one altogether. I'm not convinced that it could be pulled off. Blockading and forcing them to surrender or starve, I can see; but it would still take a very long time.

      Stalin shouldn't invade Germany. If he had, the Soviet Union would never have existed. You win defensive wars more easily than offensive ones, and Stalin would have had a harder time taking Germany than Germany taking Russia.

      The circumstances are different in that case. Soviet Union almost lost the war because it was not expecting German strike at the point when it happened. A lot of Red Army units were steamrolled right at the border, where they were positioned during the preceding Poland campaign. Similarly, a lot of army storage depots were taken over by the Germans (who promptly converted the weapons and ammunition for their uses). What's worse, a large proportion of Soviet heavy industry was in the areas initially affected by German blitzkrieg, and so supplying the troops was very problematic during the first year, until industry was finally relocated to / recreated in Urals and Siberia. If Soviets were to attack rather than defend, they wouldn't have suffered all those disastrous losses of their logistical and industrial base. And if you look at the numbers before the beginning of hostilities on the Eastern Front, Soviet Union actually had an advantage there, both in numbers and qualitatively (e.g. larger quantities of better tanks - most of which burned in their hangars under German bombs on the dawn of the day when Operation Barbarossa began).

      Even the much-ridiculed Soviet tactics during the first year of the war could work out differently - the reason why Soviet commanders were so helpless in the face of German onslaught was because Soviet military doctrine at that time emphasized offensive operations, and paid little attention to defense (a consequence of the preceding period of high hopes for "world revolution", where the task of the Red Army was to join in and provide direct support to a workers' uprising in neighboring countries). If Soviets were initially on the offensive, that doctrine may well have paid off.

    155. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by peppepz · · Score: 1

      The Israelis Government would *instantly* recognize a Palestinian State.

      The current view of the Israeli Government is this one. If the Palestinian seek to be recognised as a State by the UN, Israel will topple their government. If they quit that pretense, they could be granted authority over 40% of the land they claim.

      You must ask yourself why it so hard for the Palestinian people to recognize this

      Well, if I try to put myself in the shoes of a Palestinian, I think that it would be hard for me to accept a peace treaty involving the loss of 60% of my country, especially if my country was tiny to begin with.

      The Palestinians are not dhimmi at all, because the Israelis don't think they own the Palestinians. The Israelis have zero trust of the Palestinians because of the terrorism in the past

      You can't deny that the Palestinian are second-class citizens somehow; whether this is because of the trust the Israeli have of them or not, it must not be easy for the honest Palestinian to withstand this (I mean those who would never do a terrorist attack; there must be some!).

      To stop patrolling the borders would invite calamity on the Israeli people - and it would simply be so dumb that no rational person should even propose it.

      Indeed, I'm not denying that Israel doesn't have the right to self defense, especially given the enemies that loom at its borders. Patrolling the borders is one thing, enforcing embargos is another.

      However in Israel the government is not controlled by those people - and that makes all the difference in the world compared to Hamas. Israel is a modern democracy. Hamas is militant and millennial theocracy that no longer allows elections (and tended to throw Fatah supporters off buildings when they got into power - check YouTube for this nastiness).

      Yes, but the strained relationships between Israel and the Palestinian were always there, whether Hamas or Fatah was in charge. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the role of religion in the conflict has increased only recently, it was a more laic conflict before the rise of Al Qaida etc in the Muslim world. I like to call things with their name, so I do understand that Hamas are terrorists, but the problem is upstream, we can't reduce it to a religion clash.

      We just have learnt not to follow religious texts to the letter.

      This is the fundamental difference between Islam and the other two Abrahamic religions.

      Well Turkey, although being an Islamic country in religion, has long been quite "western" in culture and politics. So it's not intrinsic that a country inhabitated mostly by Mulsims must be a retrograde theocracy. Unfortunately, now that the world is foolishly polarising around religions again, this might change.

      there is nothing Israel has done or will do that will enable them to satisfy Hamas - the goal of Hamas is simply to remove all unbelievers from Palestine. This is why war breaks out so often - Hamas will never ever agree to a permanent peace treaty, all you get are 'hudna', which are temporary ceasefires until Hamas is ready to fight again.

      I could think that people resorted to vote for Hamas because they were unsatisifed with the results they had obtained when voting for Fatah in these years (e.g. Israeli settlements growing into what the Palestinian perceive as their own territory). Moreover, people who live in a state of desperation (I think we can agree that Gaza is a hell, whatever the reasons) easily make severe mistakes, even by means of democratic elections (think about Germany during the Weimar Republic).

      Another thing. There was no such thing as a Palestinian country (never was, it was always a province of

    156. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Deus.1.01 · · Score: 1

      People who lost their homes are still alive, people who live in the occupied territories are still alive, the scores and scores of refugee, trapped in limbo are still alive.

      Their homes are in OCCUPIED TERRITORIES! Not Israel's territories.

      You're grasp on history, both 18th cent. and modern are appalling.

      --
      My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
    157. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I would say that societies that don't value free inquiry, thought, expression--even assertion that makes people feel uncomfortable or that may attack the dignity one supposes is one's inherent state or due/rigth are doomed to fall into absurdity, subjection to arbitrary and capricious power careful only for itself, humiliation, oppression, and finally annihilation or defeat at the hands of a nation or nations that does not fall to such "empire" (look up the original meaning). It's why as much as I like bio I can't like Dawkins

      I don't follow your argument.

      Dawkins is anti-religion and uses his freedom of speech to express his beliefs. That does indeed make religious people feel uncomfortable.

      But he's never shown any sign of "crushing unwanted ideas and manners of life" except in the sense of ridiculing them and showing that they are wrong. Do you think that people who believe in a Flat or (Hollow) Earth should not be argued with on the basis of scientific evidence??

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    158. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Killing many more innocent people of the opposing faction in retaliation for one's victims was a distinctive mark of the Nazis during WW2. Israel shouldn't become a monster to fight another one.

      *golfclap*

      Well done, you have confirmed the off shoot of Godwin's law that, in any internet discussion of the Middle East, someone will eventually liken Israel (and no other country) to Nazi Germany.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    159. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by peppepz · · Score: 1

      Give a look at the post I was responding to.

    160. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by bennyp · · Score: 1

      What a load. After the Gaza Arabs chose Hamas in 2006, They went on a rampage: kneecapping, torturing, and publicly executing their own people. Fatahniks, in the streets of Gaza (ask Amnesty, I'm sure you haven't read the reports). The secular Arabs fled to Jenin, Hebron, Qaliliya and the rest where they immediately continued sucking the blood of their people to finance their palaces and shopping sprees.

      Unless Israel crushes them decisively, Hamas will win (at least in the short term) because they believe that what they are doing is commanded by Allah. Liberals are incapable of understanding this because the god they believe in doesn't really matter to them anyways, and they are so racist and closed-minded that they can't imagine anyone else disagreeing with their rosy liberal world view. Hamas are not like that. They don't care. When they are finished with the Jews, they will come to your neighbourhood to vivisect all your homosexual liberal friends and neighbours. They will drag the mutilated carcasses of secular liberal academics through the streets, firing rifles and shouting Allahu Akhbar. They have stated their intention to do this on almost a daily basis. If you don't believe that they intend to do it, you are at best ignorant, and more likely a racist throwback to the White Man's Burden.

      If you learn from history you will see this is always the case: going against the Jews guarantees you popular support, until at the very last moment God crushes you in a series of miraculously improbable political/military/economic/social turnabouts. The Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Byzantines, the Holy Roman Empire, the Early Caliphates, the Crusaders, The Inquisitors, The Czars, the Nazis, and the USSR (to name but a few) all tried, all failed, and are all now dead and gone. The Jews meanwhile are going strong and getting stronger by the day. Now Hamas and Iran are giving it their best shot. They too will eventually be destroyed, but at what cost, and what are you personally going to do about it? Choose your side wisely.

      --
      could it be?
    161. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    162. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what are your views on incest then?

    163. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Do you mean look how much they destroyed."

      No. I meant what I meant, you obvious troll.

      As per Wikipedia, Germany deployed on Barbarossa:

      Divisions 166
      Personnel 4,306,800
      Guns and mortars 42,601
      Tanks (incl assault guns) 4,171
      Aircraft 4,389

      75% off all German casualites are bound to the East front.

      Don't fool yourself: Germany lost the war in the East, not the West.

    164. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      Wow. This was the best post I read on here in ages... like a summary of things I wasn't fully aware of, and/or couldn't put my finger on. I was eating while reading slashdot, and I actually forgot chewing during your post -- a silly thing to say, but it's true ^^ Thank you very much! Any author or book suggestions you might have, I would gladly have 'em :)

    165. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Was it? Despite numerous repeated attempts, Germans still couldn't achieve air superiority. And air superiority itself one thing, while land invasion (of a heavily fortified island!) is a different one altogether.

      England wasn't that fortified. Many of the fortifications were for centuries of French invasions. Castles that were designed and tested against trebuchets and swords, not bombs or modern artillery. I'm curious now, how many fortifications in England at 1940 were constructed after gunpowder found its way to England.

      The Russians weren't prepared for the invasion, but I don't think they would have been as prepared 18 months later as you think. They mobilized faster in reality because the urgency of Nazis at the gates of Stalingrad and otherwise on Russian soil.

      The other experiment I'd like to run (if I had a time machine and changes were reversible) is to change the town named for Stalin. Would the Russians have rallied so strongly if it was Volgagrad under siege, not Stalingrad?

    166. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      You seem to be a thoughtful guy. I like your style. I do think that you have been lead 'down the wrong path' somewhat. This is exactly what the skillful Palestinian propagandists intended for you - to make honest people come to incorrect conclusions based on a selective presentation of facts. I'll make some points that I hope you will consider with an open mind. If you feel I am wrong then that is ok, but I hope that my statements go one step further 'down the rabbit hole' for you and help to gain further insight onto this extremely complicated situation.

      The current view of the Israeli Government is this one [guardian.co.uk]. If the Palestinian seek to be recognised as a State by the UN, Israel will topple their government. If they quit that pretense, they could be granted authority over 40% of the land they claim.

      Ah, the Guardian. Bastion of slanted bias! That article sounds like the Israelis are unreasonable ogres. However the situation is more complicated. My original statement still stands. The Israelis would recognize a Palestinian State instantly if their was mutual recognition and a permanent peace treaty. What the Palestinians want to do is an 'end run' around these requirements and go to the UN and get a state recognized without having to recognize Israel and without having to sign a permanent peace treaty. Now the Palestinians have a right to try this, but now you understand the situation can you blame the Israelis for trying to stop this. The Israelis want permanent peace and secure borders first and foremost. They are trying to negotiate the following: you agree peace with us and recognize our state and we'll recognize yours - but if you don't want to do these things then we'll stymie you until you do. The Israelis don't have much other leverage (contrary to popular belief, they don't want to impose their will on the Palestinians by force; force is used to neutralize threats to its existence and citizens).

      With regard to the "40%" land claim. This is incorrect. The Israelis propose a 97% return of West Bank land with mutually agreed areas of Israel to be swapped to make up the difference. The 3% or so are existing settlements the Israelis don't want to move - and offering to enlarge Gaza by a third was one way of doing it.

      See how the Western media distorts its reporting so that reasonable folks like yourself will end up following their New-Left agenda (that is, always see Israel as an aggressor with imperial ambitions - that may have been somewhat true in the past but it is certainly not true today).

      Here's a video that I believe covers many relevant facts and I think you'll find very informative. If you have the time please watch it, it talks about many of the issues in a factual way (without the selection bias that The Guardian etc apply to their reporting):
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ByJb7QQ9U

      Well, if I try to put myself in the shoes of a Palestinian, I think that it would be hard for me to accept a peace treaty involving the loss of 60% of my country, especially if my country was tiny to begin with.

      Again, that territory figure has been reported inaccurately. Actually, why don't you see what Ehud Barak actually offered in the negotiations at Camp David:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
      Here is a good analysis (admittedly from a jewish-interested source, but I believe it has factual merit):
      http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=101041

      You can't deny that the Palestinian are second-class citizens somehow; whether this is because of the trust the Israeli have of them or not, it must not be easy for the honest Palestinian to withstand this (I mean those who would never do a terrorist attack; there must be some!).

      Actua

    167. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The Russians weren't prepared for the invasion, but I don't think they would have been as prepared 18 months later as you think. They mobilized faster in reality because the urgency of Nazis at the gates of Stalingrad and otherwise on Russian soil.

      Soviets were prepared for the invasion - but the kind where they were the ones doing it. They were already effectively mobilized at that point (remember, they just fought a campaign in Poland, and Winter War in Finland). There were literally thousands of men and equipment standing at the border - and being wasted there because Stalin refused to believe that Hitler would attack when he did (despite himself saying that "war with Germany is inevitable" two months before that!), and not only made them prepare for defense in depth, but ordered to not respond to "provocations" (i.e. not fire even when fired upon). Most were encircled before they even realized that there is a full-scale war going on. Ditto with tanks and planes in the hangars... the damage dealt by Luftwaffe strikes on the very first day was immense, because they could easily hit forward bases with large concentrations of troops and equipment neatly laid out near the border while everyone on Soviet side was panicking.

      Mind you, I'm not saying that Soviets would steamroll the Germans if they attacked first. There were still problems with equipment (though many of them - like lack of good modern fighter planes - is something that 18 months would have solved), and problems with tactics and doctrine (which is something that only real combat would show the weakness of). My argument is basically this:

      1. USSR lost a large chunk of its mobilization readiness and industrial resources to German blitzkrieg in the first year of the war, largely due to being unprepared for defensive warfare and not expecting a strike.

      2. USSR still won the war, largely by outproducing Germany - more manpower was there from the get go, but more planes, tanks, ammo etc was also necessary, and was achieved with what resources the USSR had or could relocate/restore to Urals after the disastrous first year.

      3. Therefore, if German blitzkrieg didn't happen (and it can only happen on the offensive), USSR would have a considerable upper hand in the form of all those resources that were taken away from it during the first year - way more than the extra losses it would suffer from attacking rather than defending.

    168. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      They would never be allowed to pacify them. That's the problem. The masses are kept quiet by fear. That's the 800 lbs Gorilla in the room.

    169. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure Gaza is not occupied but I bet if they were that everybody would be happier and more well off.

    170. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Therefore, if German blitzkrieg didn't happen (and it can only happen on the offensive),

      It can happen on the defensive - as a counterattack. The Soviets didn't have experience against a real army, the closest they ever came to that was when the white army was US supported, but the US supported the white army just enough to expose them and the reds killed them and resented the US interference. Again, the US mishandling WWI screwed the world by causing WWII and the cold war.

      The Russian army was about what the Chinese army is now. Lots of people, not that much real experience (unless you count turning the equipment on civilians), but a better trained, better disciplined army of fewer men would never be able to invade. They'd pile 1,000,000 dead bodies as a wall if they had to to prevent the taking of Stalingrad (and not far from what they did). But if they tried to extend that power beyond their borders, they'd fail, hard and fast. They have almost twice the active military numbers as India, but would stand no chance against them, even though India doesn't have a very good fighting force either.

    171. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It can happen on the defensive - as a counterattack. The Soviets didn't have experience against a real army

      Er, what? There was Polish-Soviet war of 1920, the invasion of Poland in 1939, the battle of Khalkhin Gol against Japanese that same year, and Winter War in Finland in 1940. Of course, none of those were as strong an opponents as the Germans, but they still provided a lot of valuable combat experience (indeed, some claim that the whole point of Winter War for Stalin was to serve as a playground to prepare his officer corps for the upcoming big scuffle in Europe).

    172. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      You do realize Israel has already crushed Hamas decisively militarily several times, most recently in 2006? Israel simply does not have the economy to KEEP Hamas crushed after they do the job once. It would take approximately 85,000 troops to maintain an occupation of Gaza, which would cost roughly $8.5 Billion a year, every year, forever.

      You also apparently didn't read what I wrote before declaring it BS "Abbas crushed Hamas" means Hamas dies.

      In other words your plan has been tried. It failed. My plan will not be tried, because the politics don't work; but if they did try it it might actually work.

    173. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Americano · · Score: 1

      England wasn't that fortified.

      Only if you discount the English Channel, the 2-3 million soldiers (about 1-1.5 million of which were well-trained army forces), and the Royal Navy which would have absolutely devastated any German landing craft - since most of the german "landing craft" were flat bottomed barges, slow, largely unarmed, and largely unsuited for traversing the English channel - and the German's lack of air superiority, and the fact that Germany simply did not have the naval capacity to land the tens of thousands of troops and armor it would have taken to make a convincing attempt at establishing a beachhead, never mind the follow-on capacity to land the hundreds of thousands of troops and armor it would have taken to make a convincing march on London and hold even the 750 sq miles of London itself. When Churchill spoke of "fighting them on the beaches," he was actually being pretty literal - he expected (and had his generals plan for) street by street, town by town fight against any German forces, with the ~1.5million strong Home Guard and another 1-1.5m 'regular' forces opposing them every step of the way - blowing bridges, poisoning wells, mining roads, etc.

      The Battle of Britain and the Blitz was intended to wear down the RAF and the British will to fight, and it never truly achieved that. Goring (directing the Luftwaffe at the time) was getting awful intelligence from his own advisors, and misjudged the size of the RAF, the production capacity of their plants, the effectiveness of his own pilots, and repeatedly thought he was close to achieving his goal of being able to steamroll the Royal Navy and Britain's industrial base unopposed by British air power - which would, he hoped, force them into surrendering.

      Britain's resistance dragged out that process far longer than expected, and that made Hitler impatient. If they had kept up the pace of attacks they had launched during the Blitz, they would have been awful close to forcing that surrender, but the impatience and the cost of mounting an invasion (which they hadn't even planned fully until long after the French surrender) prompted Hitler to look east towards Russia instead, rather than being bogged down trying to conquer Britain with a limited naval capacity and no air superiority.

    174. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      What, are you stalking me? You were replying to me in another thread, and you were argumentative and so I simply stopped responding, so you followed me to another thread to pick another fight?

      It's nice and simple. I trust my opinion more than yours. There's nothing some idiot on the Internet can say to convince me his opinion is somehow more valid than mine.

    175. Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. by Americano · · Score: 1

      Don't flatter yourself.

      I should have looked at the name I was responding to, shame on me for assuming that slashdot had more than one ignorant, self-important ass spouting inane drivel and calling it fact.

  8. Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by peter303 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If it was necessary to keep the networks operating. These kids, like Assange, can be naive.

    1. Re:Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by newyorkdude · · Score: 1

      Not sure if necessary. It's far better to just protect, and is also effective. Hackers come from everywhere. Martyrdom (of a hacker) is also a path to a revolution. Israel already has one jihad on its hands. Not sure if it needs another.

    2. Re:Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Mossad hasn't been able to kill Ahmadenejad yet, nor were they able to rescue Gilad Shalit.

    3. Re:Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, but if a hacker got killed after hacking an Israeli government website... the general consensus would be "what kind of fool would try that, d'uh"

      The only religious ideology hackers have is emacs v vi, or hatred towards Oracle, or Java v C.

    4. Re:Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by Brad1138 · · Score: 1

      I think you watch to much NCIS.

      --
      If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
    5. Re:Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a stupid comment. Why the upvotes? Do you really believe you would have such respect for the Mossad if they didn't think twice, three times, five times, fifty time? And with all that thinking, do you really believe they'd use deadly force against Anonymous, a loose group of ADHD hackers that'll be onto some other shiny hacking target when this one comes off as too hard? Consider where a lot of security software comes from. Consider where Intel processor designs come from. Deadly force? Wouldn't think twice? You're an idiot.

    6. Re:Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by Sun · · Score: 1

      Care to cite your references? Care to provide a single case in which Mossad acted against someone merely because of cyber vandalism?

      And modded "insightful", too...

      Shachar

    7. Re:Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      You can try to downplay this as "cyber vandalism" all you like, the fact is it is an act of terrorism as much as blowing up an electricity sub-station. You play with the big boys, expect to get treated as a grown up yourself.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    8. Re:Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it was necessary to keep the networks operating.
      These kids, like Assange, can be naive.

      So can people on slashdot. Mossad doesn't care about some kids trying to deface some websites. They are easy to manipulate. All you have to do is issue a press release saying that Anon has tried and utterly failed to penetrate your systems, and how much they suck and you rule, and voila! Free stress test compliments of the rabid Anon fanbois.
      Now if one of them actually manages to do something which matters, that would be a different story.

    9. Re:Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Assange seems to have been fully aware of the threats to his life from the start. And even Mossad can't murder European citizens with impunity, so it rather depends on where in the world these hackers live.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    10. Re:Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahmadenijad has an entire security force and military surrounding him. He's a slightly harder target than Assange would be if Mossad decided that they really wanted him to go away.

      They couldn't rescue Gilad Shalit simply because they couldn't find him. Had they found him, trust me, Shalit would've gotten to walk right out the front door of the rotting corpses of his captors courtesy of the IDF.

    11. Re:Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by Sun · · Score: 1

      I actually doubt they are trying.

      There were plans to assassinate Saddam Hussein, which were spoiled because of a misfired missile during a training session.

      Then again, those plans were based on target availability, so maybe Amadenejad would be a target. I don't know.

      Shachar

    12. Re:Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unfortunate accidents can happen to anyone.

    13. Re:Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by submit+your+site · · Score: 1

      yes, like assange............

      --
      Submit your Site URL to the Best of the Web Directory.
    14. Re:Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quite right. There has been a lot discussed about Assange's willingness to put himself in harms way. His psychological profile includes a childhood of constant threat by a crazy parent. He was on the run for quite some time as a kid, and had to take fight the dumb bureaucracy 'protecting' us on his own as a means to survive. This guy probably has internalized resistance to an overwhelming enemy. It is probably his normal state of mind.

  9. Heh by Nexion · · Score: 4, Funny

    The "cyber attacks" against Israel are about as impressive as Palestinian missile technology.

    1. Re:Heh by twotacocombo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The "cyber attacks" against Israel are about as impressive as Palestinian missile technology.

      Care to elaborate on this? I'm quite impressed by their homebrewed rockets. Far more effective than anything you or I could conjure up, for sure. They're extremely effective as a psychological weapon as well. Even if they never hit their target, they're still causing damage to the enemy.

    2. Re:Heh by Hentes · · Score: 2

      They are not homebrewn but smuggled from Iran through Egypt.

    3. Re:Heh by twotacocombo · · Score: 5, Informative

      They are not homebrewn but smuggled from Iran through Egypt.

      The Qassam series of rockets are certainly manufactured by the Palestinians. The longer range rockets are of Iranian, Chinese, and Russian origins.

    4. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "cyber attacks" against Israel are about as impressive as Palestinian missile technology.

      Not their fault on cyberattacks...
      Have you ever TRIED to type anything in Hebrew-mode on a standard keyboard?

    5. Re:Heh by siddesu · · Score: 1

      Actually, this piece of news underlines nicely what i have been saying for ages. there is no "cyber warfare", it is mostly one big cost-cutting measure for the management of software/it companies and their larger customers, which dumps the protection of incompetence and irresponsibility onto the public finances.

    6. Re:Heh by murdocj · · Score: 0

      They aren't hombrew. The ones they are using now are military missiles from Iran.

    7. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read that they're manufacturing grads now, too. It's only the really dangerous missiles, iranian fajr's, that are being shipped in pieces from iran to sudan, assembled, and then smuggled into gaza through egypt.

    8. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe the US can supply Hamas with the same rockets that they give Israel; so that Obama can stop whining about how Hamas fires rockets indiscriminately, and how Israel never targets civilians. Although, one must question these US supplied missiles to Israel, since they seem to just murder innocent babies and women and men. Quality control must suck in the US these days.

    9. Re:Heh by mjwx · · Score: 2

      They are not homebrewn but smuggled from Iran through Egypt.

      The Qassam series of rockets are certainly manufactured by the Palestinians. The longer range rockets are of Russian origins.

      There, fixed that for you. Chinese and Iranian rocket technologies are based on Russian rockets.

      The entirely Palestinian made rockets are at the same sophistication level as the Katyusha rockets of WWII... Then again they don't have to be that complex to be effective at sowing terror. The more complex rockets are imported whole or made from imported components as they dont have enough high tech industry in the Gaza strip or West Bank to produce them.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    10. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to have a yard that extended to the sea.

      One day, some strangers came and slapped a condo on it, cutting off my access to the beach.

      The people they setup in the place then began throwing rocks at my family.

      My family and I appealed to the authorities, but the largest and most powerful among them are staunch friends of the new people.

      There was absolutely no chance of any kind of peaceful negotiation, so it's been open hostility between us ever since.

      A few years ago they even invaded what remained of our property and threw most of us off it, then built another condo on it.

      We'd love to get our yard back, but it's been too long now.

      The grandchildren of the new people call the condo home, and feel the beach is rightfully theirs now.

      Unfortunately they won't consider the possibility of giving us even a narrow right-of-way to the sea.

      It's a most unfortunate situation, and I don't know how it's going to end.

    11. Re:Heh by Sun · · Score: 1

      Back in 2001, when the Palestinian only started firing rockets, these were really ridiculous. They were sometimes merely sign-posts poles with some explosives to make them fly stuffed inside, and were almost as likely to fly toward the area from which fired. These days are long gone.

      Rockets today are either smuggled in through tunnels, or manufactured in shops set up for that purpose. The rockets fired at Tel Aviv (of which an older version are described here) have a range of 75 Kilometers (47 miles).

      Shachar

    12. Re:Heh by TheSeatOfMyPants · · Score: 1

      living with neighbors to a people who wish to push you into the sea tends to leave one with thick skin

      Yes, that situation has made them tougher, though I'd say "crushed with settlement construction equipment" sounds more apt than pushed into the sea -- but how has the oppressor been affected?

      --
      Now mostly at Usenet:comp.misc & SoylentNews.org (it's made of people!)
    13. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and now phase 2, the counter offensive, where Israel's secret service or special forces hunt down the members of "Annonymous" and do them like those guys in Munich. Lesson of the day: don't FUCK with Israel. They've decided they won't be pushed around and they can in fact do something about it when they're attacked.

    14. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are one sick fuck. "Extremely effective as a psychological weapon"? To whom? Innocent people! That's who. I get sick of these nazi Jew-haters. Let's just call it what it is.

    15. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are obviously an Israeli shill, Israel is a country of war criminals thieves and racists, and deserve everything they get. Most people are becoming aware of this unlike sycophantic morons like you.

    16. Re:Heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I imagine your or I would be better at making homebrew rockets if we were Palestinians living in Hamas. This kind of knowledge goes where it's needed. The theory behind making homebrew rockets is pretty old school after you get past the modern rocket in a modern tube part.

  10. Rule 34 on Israel? by Aardpig · · Score: 1

    If there isn't a picture of Israel getting fucked on/by the Internet -- there soon will be.

    --
    Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    1. Re:Rule 34 on Israel? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Israel drafts women into its army along with men, so you only have to look.

  11. Reminds Me of... by Epicaxia · · Score: 2

    Sort of like a 5th-grade bully pissing on a main battle tank. 'Success' might mean the tank got wet, but it's not like you're going to slow it down.

    1. Re:Reminds Me of... by c0lo · · Score: 2

      Sort of like a 5th-grade bully pissing on a main battle tank. 'Success' might mean the tank got wet, but it's not like you're going to slow it down.

      Careful with the analogies, buddy.
      Pissing on a full-speed marching tank and getting it wet would still qualify as an impressing feat in my view.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    2. Re:Reminds Me of... by Epicaxia · · Score: 1

      Not to say it wouldn't be impressive, but you clearly have to define your conditions for success. I'll bet both sides will (in fact, effectively have already) released conclusions in hindsight claiming victory--Anon. for executing so many attacks, with visible successes here and there, and Israel for not really loosing anything critical and demonstrating a well-designed and operated CSec environment.

  12. Lies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well, first of all, the guy's a liar. Besides his statistics being absurd beyond the pale, he has every incentive to hide the truth, as it feeds the well-oiled Israeli propaganda machine -- and we would do the same thing, as would any marginally-competent intelligence division.

    More importantly, though, the simple fact is that Anon isn't what it used to be. Many of the power-hitters have moved on to bigger and better things -- things that pay real money. The few with talent that are still around are often loathe to engage state-funded entities in what has a high probability for inviting the kind of attention that even Anon doesn't want. That whole mess over there is a giant shitpile, and nobody with two neurons to rub together wants to touch it with a 29 1/2 foot pole.

    That leaves the script kiddies, and since we've already determined that the intelligence department at play is at least marginally-competent, they aren't going to be wildly successful.

  13. 44 million attacks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    44 million attacks

    A DDoS is a single attack.

  14. What's an attack? by batquux · · Score: 1

    I'm sure every ping on a port scan counts as a failed attack here.

    1. Re:What's an attack? by Aardpig · · Score: 2

      Surely pings aren't the payload in a port scan (although they might be used in a precursor scan)? Ping is ICMP, whereas port scans (or indeed the very concept of ports) is TCP or UDP.

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    2. Re:What's an attack? by timeOday · · Score: 1

      The lack of successful attacks is more impressive than the number of so-called failed attacks.

    3. Re:What's an attack? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you really think they'd admit to the successful attacks?

    4. Re:What's an attack? by batquux · · Score: 1

      I was using it more as a descriptive word, and because it simplifies the sentence.

  15. The solution to the gaza conflict! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    (Posting anon for obvious reasons. This is a joke!)

    Recently, my sister confided a fantastically silly plan for halting the missile strikes in and around the gaza strip.

    Take a rickety ald crop duster, paint it in North Korean colors, and use it to drop crushed up pork rinds, and cheap beer all over the conflict area.

    The beauty of the plan, is the incluson of poorly translated english language leaflets stating that the fearless leader, kim jong un, has heard of the suffering of the people in the region, and is delivering a humanitarian aid package, compliments of his newly formed "damnation army" program.

    By mashing up the pork rinds, you make them light enough to get caught by desert winds, and whirled about like snow, ensuring that the combatants cannot avoid coming into conact with the product.

    By making both combattants angry at the distant North Korea, you make the middle east into their and china's problem!

    We decided that the porkrinds should be made from 100% vietnamese potbelly pigs, and the beer should be made from as much rice as possible. We gave some thought to what the packaging for the products should say, and decided on "NK krunchies", (with a caricature of kim Jong eating said pork rinds with a shit eating grin on his face), and "Leader's lager", in a super generic looking poptop can.

    1. Re:The solution to the gaza conflict! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      One more thing: the pilot of the plane should be a flaming homosexual.

    2. Re:The solution to the gaza conflict! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Great news! YOU can pilot the plane!

    3. Re:The solution to the gaza conflict! by Aardpig · · Score: 1

      No, that's OP's job.

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    4. Re:The solution to the gaza conflict! by pkinetics · · Score: 1

      So the Biebs it is!

    5. Re:The solution to the gaza conflict! by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1

      So the Biebs it is!

      I am pretty sure that would qualify as a warcrime, and possibly as a crime against humanity.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
  16. with nearly all of them failing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    LOL - the nature of the cyber attacks is that nearly all of them fail.

    Since 'nearly' all of them failed, 'some' of them got through.

    This is a PR failure Israel - we've woken up to your ethnic cleansing. You're the first to scream holocaust yet you're perpetrating one of your own on the Palestinian people.

    You make me, and everyone else that has become aware of what you've been up to the past 60 odd years, disgusted at your lying and murderous ethnic cleansing ways.

  17. Poorly Thought Out Response by TheSpoom · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Anons everywhere are now thinking to themselves, "challenge accepted."

    --
    It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
    - E. Debs
    1. Re:Poorly Thought Out Response by Kergan · · Score: 3, Funny

      Anons everywhere are now thinking to themselves, "challenge accepted."

      According to TFA, they tried already -- they're strongly suspected to have to anyway. But you wouldn't know from TFS, where anonymous only appears in the title.

      Else yeah, agreed. They might might as well draw a target on their IT infrastructure's forehead.

    2. Re:Poorly Thought Out Response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anons everywhere are now thinking to themselves, "challenge accepted."

      Um... no, they already failed the challenge. The operation failed. Israel's infrastructure remains standing and uninterrupted. Are you paying attention, or are you just selectively forgetting inconvenient facts that JUST HAPPENED?

      Or are you trying to get us to believe zomg teh big bad CONSPRIRACYES shot down TEH TURTHS!??!??!? and Israel's servers are actually melted slag by this point?

    3. Re:Poorly Thought Out Response by Hentes · · Score: 1

      Even if they succeed, putting a Guy Fawkes mask on a government site will hardly disrupt the IDF.

    4. Re:Poorly Thought Out Response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well yeah but. Unless some braindead bureocrat claims that anon has tried and failed, all the teenies aren't really in it with their heart. Haven't really given it their best shot. Didn't start internal penis comparision contests about bragging rights. It's only when actually somebody said they tried and failed, that they get all wet and excited about actually doing something.

    5. Re:Poorly Thought Out Response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure all they were using before were ion cannons, perhaps they can unleash their true power and show them them what being a script kiddie is all about.

    6. Re:Poorly Thought Out Response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now that would be fun. US teenager beats greasy bearded GNUers into hacking Israeli gov IT...

    7. Re:Poorly Thought Out Response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure Israel is worried about a bunch of script kiddies.

    8. Re:Poorly Thought Out Response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anons everywhere are now thinking to themselves, "challenge accepted."

      Well no shit, that's the point of making the statement. Free Stress Testing. Anon are easy to manipulate, as your +5 Insightful rating goes to show.

  18. Anonymous is now on Mossad's hit list by ozduo · · Score: 0

    lot's of geek suicides to follow.

    --
    I got to the chocolate box before you, that's why the hard ones have teeth marks.
  19. Not that surprising by DaveAtFraud · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When your defenses are tested on a regular and ongoing basis, they become very good. It's not like the attacks from Anonymous were the first nor will they be the last. Kudos to the people who created and maintain these systems.

    It would be interesting to know if the Iraelis are doing something the rest of the world doesn't know about (chances are they wouldn't tell us but who could blame them?) or are just rigorously implementing standard computer and network security measures.

    Cheers,
    Dave

    --
    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
    Ben
    1. Re:Not that surprising by pkinetics · · Score: 1

      Of course they are doing something everyone else isn't. They are sending the geeks version of Mossad after them!

    2. Re:Not that surprising by Tom · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It would be interesting to know if the Iraelis are doing something the rest of the world doesn't know about

      Unlikely, except for maybe a few isolated tricks.

      But look at what they are doing in airport security and you quickly spot why they succeed where the rest of the western world struggles. They are focussed on actual, real, effective security measures instead of security theatre. They really want to prevent attacks, instead of giving everyone a warm and fuzzy feeling.

      I work in IT security (yes, you can hire me). Most companies waste incredible amounts of money on replacing their current 5" steel front door with a new 7" steel front door, all the while ignoring that the back door is plywood and typically unlocked. Or they buy a shiny new firewall, but don't train anyone to configure and run it professionally (similarities to the TSA spending billions on body scanners but paying the people who monitor them minimum wage? Nah... never...).

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    3. Re:Not that surprising by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      When your defenses are tested on a regular and ongoing basis, they become very good.

      As an aside, that's also the reason the TSA is so utterly incompetent - there have been no serious attacks on the TSA's security system so they have had no motivation to do a good job. If terrorism were as much of an existential threat as so much of the US government keeps telling us, the TSA would be battle-hardned and completely on point instead of the laughingstock they are now.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    4. Re:Not that surprising by Dan+East · · Score: 1

      Israel is also physically isolated, which of course is mirrored by the actual points of connectivity in and out of the country. Thus DDOS and other similar attacks can be stopped wholesale before they even reach the point of actual web servers. The only hope of DDOSing anything physically located in Israel would be via a net of infected machines also in Israel, which apparently Anonymous doesn't control in sufficient numbers. I don't know the situation with ISPs there, but they may also be more aggressive about disconnecting machines known to be compromised.

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    5. Re:Not that surprising by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      And let's be honest....

      We know the US & Israel developed Stuxnet. But who do you think did most of the work?

      We probably just used the CIA spy network to deliver their code.

    6. Re:Not that surprising by DaveAtFraud · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I kind of figured that. Someone else pointed out that the Israelis can turn their small size into an asset by implementing filtering on the external connections to their backbone. DDoS isn't subtle so a lot of the low skill level attacks never get close to the intended target. Wouldn't surprise me if they're not doing the same for scans.

      Couldn't agree with you more with regard to both the TSA and most corporate IT security. Everybody wants a magic box that they can plug into their network and it somehow protects the organization from all attacks. Sadly, there are lots of people who will claim they can sell them such a box. When it doesn't work, management will just buy a different ("new" and "improved") magic box.

      Cheers,
      Dave

      --
      They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
      Ben
    7. Re:Not that surprising by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      Yup, I went through Israeli airport security once. I was actually concerned I might have been detained. Everybody gets a personal interview. The interviewer was fairly intimidating. The interview wasn't very long, but I got a clear understanding that if it didn't go well it could become VERY long.

    8. Re:Not that surprising by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Yup, I went through Israeli airport security once. I was actually concerned I might have been detained. Everybody gets a personal interview. The interviewer was fairly intimidating. The interview wasn't very long, but I got a clear understanding that if it didn't go well it could become VERY long.

      Israel airport security has scared the crap out of me the couple of times I've been through it as a tourist on holiday with my family. Christ knows what it's like if you're an actual terrorist.

      But El Al is the most secure airline in the world so they're doing something right.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    9. Re:Not that surprising by rogerz · · Score: 1

      I've been through Ben-Gurion ~10 times, and have not had similar experiences. Indeed, from what I know of the Israeli security techniques, the goal is not really to make you sweat, but simply to observe your behavior in reacting to mundane, but rapid fire, questions. In effect, it's a lie detector test, where the detectors are well trained (and intelligent) humans. The US could have a similar system - with similar success - if we reallocated resources away from security theater and toward hiring and training good people to do this kind of pattern recognition. Unfortunately, since the TSA is viewed as a job-creation program, and since it *is* security theater (not actual security) that is the goal of the program, we are unlikely to get there.

      --
      If humans are mostly water, and beer is mostly water, then humans must be mostly beer.
    10. Re:Not that surprising by airdweller · · Score: 1

      "Israel is also physically isolated..."
      Could you elaborate on that? Is Israel physically isolated from the internet?

    11. Re:Not that surprising by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      That actually is a good description of what I experienced.

    12. Re:Not that surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would I hire you "blah blah blah... Security 101... Blah blah populer atack on TSA"

    13. Re:Not that surprising by Tom · · Score: 0

      You could hire me as a spellchecker, you desperately need one. :-)

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  20. Someone should tell this guy by ficuscr · · Score: 2

    Someone should tell this Mr. Chan at Gizmodo, according to him it's been a "whopping takedown." http://gizmodo.com/5961399/anonymous-destroys-israel-by-taking-down-hundreds-of-websites-and-leaking-emails-and-passwords

  21. The Russians Disagree... by dryriver · · Score: 0

    According to Russia Today, Anon took down over 700 Israeli websites, and also dumped the (sensitive) personal details of almost 5,000 Israeli government employees on the internet: http://rt.com/news/anonymous-israel-officials-leaked-002/ --------- It seems to me that the Israelis are either a) lying to save face or b) lying because they are so used to lying about everything to begin with.

    --
    Why did the chicken cross the road? Because Elon Musk put an AI chip in its head.
    1. Re:The Russians Disagree... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    2. Re:The Russians Disagree... by LostMonk · · Score: 2

      According to a different source all or most sites taken down where private or business owned and the data published is from a "Unity Coalition for Israel" group and user data from some real-estate board. It's quite possible that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

    3. Re:The Russians Disagree... by sageres · · Score: 1

      Why is it not a possiblity for you that, which by the way has been proven over and over again, that RT -- the mouth of the Russian government and outgrowth of TAAS -- the media arm of the Soviet Union is simply lying. Have you ever been to their website? It is a conspiracy theorists mouthpiece. Anti-American, and anti-west in general. Pan-Arabist at times, such as now.
      In short -- liars.

    4. Re:The Russians Disagree... by macshit · · Score: 1

      or (c) the story on RT wasn't true. Given RT's usual really, really, bad fact-checking, (c) seems pretty likely...

      --
      We live, as we dream -- alone....
    5. Re:The Russians Disagree... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not seeing conspiracy here, just bad journalism. Check out the list:

      http://www.ehackingnews.com/2012/11/hack-archive-opisrael.html

      Most of the sites there are either ridiculous (anon hacked bing.co.il. Really. Did I tell you about the bridge I was trying to sell?), or small businesses like accountants and realtors. Also some porn, and the occasional municipality website, and other assorted sites.

      Basically it's a so-so day for your average skr1pt k1dd1e. Makes for a nice list, though, so I see why some journalists fell for it.

      The one sad thing is that they seem to have uncovered the population registry, or at least part of it. A contractor posted it (and some other DBs) circa 2006, and it's been available online ever since.

      English article from Ha'aretz acknowleding PIs (that means anybody who cares) has the registry, from 2008:
      http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/who-s-been-leaking-data-from-the-voter-rolls-1.259047
      Hebrew article from 2011 talking about the contractor:
      http://www.themarker.com/hitech/1.1533556

      In short, it's unfortunate, but it's not as if anon did anything...

    6. Re:The Russians Disagree... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RT is either a propaganda mouthpiece or else an organized flame group trolling for the lulz.

  22. is it just me by nimbius · · Score: 0

    or does slashdot seem to be picking sides in this pissing contest? the rockets? all shot down by the worlds best missile defence system. the hackers? all shut out by the worlds best Information Systems collective.

    Israels regime seems content to keep producing elegant tactical responses to what amounts to a sustained strategic threat. Is this really even about recognizing the "jewish state of israel" anymore?

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
    1. Re:is it just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In general, the Western world has gotten tired of the "lets bait Israel into another conflict!" bullshittery. That includes Slashdot.

    2. Re:is it just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Israel doesn't have a regime, it's has a government. Idi Amin of Uganda had a regime. Ceausescu in Romania had a regime. Muammar Qadaffi and Bashir Assad ran/run regimes. Francisco Franco in spain had a regime. Augusto Pinochet had a regime. Peron of Argentina had a regime. Lukashenko in Belarus has a regime. Slobodan Milosevic had a regime in Serbia. Arafat had a regime in Ramallah. Israel has a democratically elected government, like the UK, France, Canada, Australia, Germany and the U.S.

    3. Re:is it just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The missile shield destroys any pretense that this is about Israel protecting themselves, why aren't we calling them on it?

    4. Re:is it just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People are dying in Gaza and your upset that Israel isn't portray as in more danger and more sympathitic?

    5. Re:is it just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sorry, this was supposed to be a joke.

    6. Re:is it just me by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      The missile shield destroys any pretense that this is about Israel protecting themselves, why aren't we calling them on it?

      Even if the missile shield were 100% effective, which it isn't, Israel is still entitled to defend itself against attacks.

      Do you think that if, during the Blitz, Britain had managed to find a way to shoot down all Nazi bombers and rockets we should have just said that we didn't then need to do anything else about Hitler?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    7. Re:is it just me by Deus.1.01 · · Score: 1

      Totally apt analogy.

      The fact that the Palestinian Africa corps are sweeping through Tunis at this very moment makes this really sink in.

      --
      My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
  23. Why is this surprising? by klingers48 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is Israel we're talking about folks... Of course they were going to be able to withstand these attacks. It's an offshoot of Israel's unparalleled second-strike capability mentality. It's all they have.

    Can you think of any other country in the world that is so completely and utterly beset by constant regional threats and actually has the resources to do something about it? If there is any country that is going to build proactive and pragmatic redundancy into their national IT infrastructure to protect it from external threats (and do it right), it's Israel. They have a lot more to lose by doing it wrong.

    1. Re:Why is this surprising? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I wonder why they are threatened? Maybe keeping Palestinians as animals, demoralised, dehumanised. As for Israelis, we Jews are told to live in fear because they want us to. Iran? More bullshit that the US/UK/Israel spews out. Iran doesn't want to destory Israel, it wants to rid the world of a racist, Zionist Israel. Much like how we rid the world of Nazi Germany and replaced it with a new, wonderful Germany.

      I'm a Jew, and there's a reason why Israel is under threat, except it's not really, that is fear-mongering, for the most part. We tear apart the Muslim world, terrorise it, rip apart the Mid-East, and fucking wonder why there is a slight resentment towards Israel? Except, if you talk to most Muslims, they don't want Israel to be destroyed, they want Zionist Israel to vanish, big difference.

      Oh, and Israel are talking shite about Anonymous not doing much damage.At last count, I saw many sites defaced, as well as systems hacked and details posted up online. More propoganda from Israel, much like how they made that video today showing Hamas rockets on a UN complex, except it wasn't true/

    2. Re:Why is this surprising? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Iran?

    3. Re:Why is this surprising? by durdur · · Score: 2

      I'm sure that they have good security technology and procedures.
      But you are only as strong as your weakest link. And any large and complex system has bugs and vulnerabilities, whether you are talking about off the shelf software such as Linux & Apache, or custom software. And even if the endpoint software is bulletproof, the network may not be. So they shouldn't brag about being uncrackable. They probably aren't.

    4. Re:Why is this surprising? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't be a Jew living in Israel. Actually, reading that makes me think you're not a Jew at all, but rather the Neo-Nazi equivalent of a Muslim (which is damn hard to do considering all the shit that Muslims do to each other, let alone what they want to do to the Jews).

      See, the problem that you seem to have drowned yourself in hatred avoiding is that Israel is not Zionist. That's bullshit. The Muslim leaders want Israel to vanish, by genocide, and they claim it under the guise of getting rid of Zionism. However, the big picture part is that they see ALL Israelis as Zionist. Everywhere. The same way that a lot of Americans can't tell the difference between what the Government of a country spews and what its people actually want.

      Most Muslims want peace just like most Israelis want peace. You know who doesn't want peace? The leaders. Hamas doesn't care what their people think as long as they can destroy the Jews, and Netanyahu doesn't care what his people think as long as he can "protect" them by destroying Hamas. That's another big difference in thinking though. Israel wants the organizations and governments that support them gone, not the people, although they don't really care how many civilians get caught in the cross-fire. On the other side, Hamas wants ALL Israelis dead; military, civilian, whatever, no cross-fire required.

    5. Re:Why is this surprising? by Rich0 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Maybe, but having hung out with people with a military background, I can vouch that there is a fairly deep-set appreciation for security that is engendered within the armed forces. Now, consider the fact that all Israeli citizens serve in the military - male and female. I think that this has a big cultural impact.

      Also, factor in that the whole country is about the size of New Jersey - you're not far from a potential battleground anywhere you go. Every adult probably knows somebody who witnessed an act of terrorism firsthand - they were having incidents almost daily a decade ago. So, you get the under siege mentality as well. Compare US border security with Israeli border security and you'll see a stark contrast - you might as well compare a US state line to the Berlin wall.

      The Israelis that I've met over the years don't really strike me as being anti-arabic or anything. In fact, it seems like they try to foster relationships where they can, since every so often they have to go on active duty and when you're patrolling some Palestinian neighborhood it doesn't hurt to be on good terms.

    6. Re:Why is this surprising? by klingers48 · · Score: 1

      Maybe, but having hung out with people with a military background, I can vouch that there is a fairly deep-set appreciation for security that is engendered within the armed forces. Now, consider the fact that all Israeli citizens serve in the military - male and female. I think that this has a big cultural impact.

      Now this is a really great point I hadn't considered. If only for mod points.

  24. ISRAEL WE BLESS THEE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

    Today, while driving through town, I wound up behind a minivan that had a big sticker on the back. The sticker had an Israeli flag in the middle of it, and under it the quotation from the book of Genesis that reads âoeI will bless those who bless thee.â

    I would like to take this time to list my own reasons for thanking and blessing Israel, our lone ally in the Middle East, for everything she has done for us, since I am quite sure most Americans are unaware of just what kind of friend she has been to us.

    For extorting from me and my fellow Americans $4,000,000,000.00 a year for the last 4 decades, we bless thee.

    For taking our most sophisticated weapons technology and stealing it for yourself without paying the American patent holders, we bless thee.

    For taking that high-tech military technology and selling it to our enemies, such as the Russians and Chinese, thus further endangering us, we bless thee.

    For using that weaponry in a sustained attack against a United States ship, the USS Liberty, in an attempt to sink her, thus preventing US servicemen from revealing to the rest of the world information concerning the war crimes they witnessed you commit against Egyptian soldiers in the Sinai Desert during the Six Day War, as well as for the purposes of dragging the US into yet another one of your murderous adventures, we bless thee.

    For killing 35 and wounding 170 American sailors aboard the USS Liberty, we bless thee.

    For bribing the United States government into covering it up, preventing any justice from being done for the benefit of the families of the lost sailors - as well as the American People, we bless thee.

    For sending your agents into Egypt and blowing up American buildings for the purpose of blaming the Arabs in an event known as the Lavon Affair, we bless thee.

    For sending your agents into Libya during the Reagan administration, and broadcasting radio messages in Arabic that were designed to sound like âoeterrorist cell planningâ so that the US would initiate military strikes against Khadafi in an event known as Operation Trojan Horse, we bless thee.

    For withholding information from us concerning the planned attacks against the US Marine barracks in Lebanon, attacks you knew about through your moles in the Islamic world and about which you deliberately refused to warn us in order to further your interests against the Arabs, we bless thee.

    For employing Jonathon Pollard, an American serviceman paid to spy for Israel in order to steal even more of our National Security secrets for your parasitic purposes, we bless thee.

    For blackmailing President Clinton through one of your sayanim, Monica Lewinsky, in order to prevent a coherent peace program from being pushed forward between yourself and the Palestinian people whom you have brutalized and murdered for the last 50 years, we bless thee.

    For breaking every agreement you have made with your Arab neighbors, stealing their land, displacing, murdering, and treating them like the animals you see them as, we bless thee.

    For using your agents within the first Bush administration to involve us in the first Gulf War, causing the deaths of American men and women, and exposing our servicemen to whatever bioweapons were and are responsible which have led to Gulf War Syndrome, we bless thee.

    For your role in the September 11 attacks in this country, and for blackmailing and bribing the US government into deporting back to Israel the 100 or more intelligence agents that were arrested after the attacks, we bless thee.

    For suppressing the information from the American people of your involvement in the September 11 attacks and sending us in the wrong direction in search of answers, we bless thee.

    For using one of your agents in the US Army Weapons Lab to steal anthrax and distribute it into our mail system, terrorizing US citizens and killing several in order to blame the Arabs, we bless thee.

    For using your agents in the US Government, namely, Rumsfel

    1. Re:ISRAEL WE BLESS THEE by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      And finally, for using your influence in our media and academia to flood our minds with pornography and lies, as well as inculcating in us a hatred for our history, religion, and culture, for dividing our nation between races and sexes, and for releasing into our society all of your plagues and filth that have left us a rotted out corpse of a once great nation, oh Israel, our friend,

      we bless thee.

      What retard modded this crap as informative?

      The only thing they forgot was to mention the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  25. Absolutely brilliant by DaveAtFraud · · Score: 1

    With any luck the scattering of crushed pork rinds would render the area selectively uninhabitable to the worst fanatics on both sides (both Jews and Muslims avoid pork). It would be alomost like setting off a dirty bomb but the "contamination" would only affect the hard liners. The hard liners all have to leave since they deeply believe that they can't have pork in any way shape or form and the more reasonable people who remain then sort out the mess.

    I'll start grinding pork rinds.

    Cheers,
    Dave

    --
    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
    Ben
    1. Re:Absolutely brilliant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With any luck the scattering of crushed pork rinds would render the area selectively uninhabitable to the worst fanatics on both sides (both Jews and Muslims avoid pork). It would be alomost like setting off a dirty bomb but the "contamination" would only affect the hard liners. The hard liners all have to leave since they deeply believe that they can't have pork in any way shape or form and the more reasonable people who remain then sort out the mess.

      I'll start grinding pork rinds.

      Cheers,
      Dave

      No we just can't EAT pork, yours truly
      A jew

    2. Re:Absolutely brilliant by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      Good luck with that, when pork rind dust is literally wafting on the breeze, and gets in your nose and mouth. You would have to wear a heavy duty particle mask to avoid eating any.

    3. Re:Absolutely brilliant by DaveAtFraud · · Score: 1

      1) My comment was supposed to be funny (see parent comment that I was replying to).

      2) Underneath my attempt at humor was the serious message that there are hardliners *on both sides* who make finding a reasonable solution even more difficult. We need only look at what happened to Anwar Sadat and Yitzhak Rabin.

      Cheers,
      Dave

      --
      They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
      Ben
    4. Re:Absolutely brilliant by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      With any luck the scattering of crushed pork rinds would render the area selectively uninhabitable to the worst fanatics on both sides (both Jews and Muslims avoid pork). It would be alomost like setting off a dirty bomb but the "contamination" would only affect the hard liners. The hard liners all have to leave since they deeply believe that they can't have pork in any way shape or form and the more reasonable people who remain then sort out the mess.

      I'll start grinding pork rinds.

      Cheers, Dave

      Sadly for your fantasy, the vast majority of Jews and Muslims don't treat the question of pork as a matter of more importance than life or death. They might not be wild about it, but if you said to most of them "eat a bacon sandwich or I'll kill your family", they'd eat the sandwich. The real religious extremists aren't out fighting anyway, they're sitting in their synagogues or mosques studying.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    5. Re:Absolutely brilliant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've often observed that atheists can be the most intolerant people on the planet...comments like this definitely don't help me change my mind.

  26. Re:Free Fucking Tibet... by WilliamGeorge · · Score: 3, Informative

    I realize this will hold little / no value for most of the /. readership, as polls I've seen here come back showing overwhelmingly agnostic / atheist beliefs amongst the local populous, but in Christian and Jewish tradition the area of nation of Israel was given to them by God. They have been driven out of the area a few times in history, and have always managed to return eventually. They are also one of the most persecuted people groups on the planet (historically) that has managed to survive, and there is an awful lot of conflict surrounding them and that region.

    The reason they are there now is that the British Empire controlled that region at the close of World War II, and gave it to the surviving Jewish people who had lived through the horrors of the Holocaust (and others from around the world). The Israelis don't have a problem living in peace with the Palestinians, and even ceded land to them (which is the Gaza area, where the current issues are happening). However, the leadership that those same Palestinians elected have it in their very charter that all Jews (not just Israeli citizens, but those of Jewish heritage) should be wiped out. Then those same people launch missiles over the border, and yet when Israel responds to defend themselves you complain?

    --
    William George
  27. Re:hey zionist! by reasterling · · Score: 1

    2000 years. Are you certain?

    I seem to remember that there was something called Rome 2000 years ago. Muhammad was born @ 570ad. It was in the 7th century ad when militant Islam spread into the area that was before and is now known as Israel. The Dome on the Rock, built in the latter part of the 7th century, was arrogantly established on the Jewish temple mount. Though, I admit that the islamic palestinians have lived there for multiple generations, there is no need to exagerate their history in a lame attemp to make a point.

    --
    "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice" -- God
  28. Re:Free Fucking Tibet... by WilliamGeorge · · Score: 1

    Now I see the OP has a -1 rating on his comment... I just fed a troll, didn't I? :(

    --
    William George
  29. did the count every single DDos-packet by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

    or were there any "attacks" worse than the usual script-kiddie ddos on a poor, unimportant webserver?

    --
    bickerdyke
    1. Re:did the count every single DDos-packet by warGod3 · · Score: 1

      That's along the same line I was thinking. I kind of think that someone may be either overstating numbers or just full of shit. Of course, 44,000,000 attacks could be done easily... depending on the definition of "attack". But what about researching those "attacks"? I'm sure that is taking some time and effort.

      So the government states that they have fended off all of these attacks... like anything else, that just means that they'll probably receive more of the same.

      In other words, the article is great for inciting further attacks against the Israelis, a fluff piece for their government, or a way of insuring job security.

      --
      "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General James Mattis
  30. CIA triad by detritus. · · Score: 1

    OK, with these sites so confidentiality and integrity of data are destroyed, but we have awesome availability. Let's write this off as money well spent and declare a victory!

  31. Re:Free Fucking Tibet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Partially correct. The jewish people have been moving into the Palestine and building infra-structure there since the 19th century. Settlers have been immigrating because of the persecution during the 19th and 20th century. They had been buying contiguous land from the Ottomans and Arabs and mantained para-military groups that trained clandestinally under Ottoman and English rule. Tel Aviv was built in the desert, from zero and was founded in 20 April 1909.

    So the underlying foundations of the state was being built for a long time. England didn't "give" them a state as much as a college giving you a diploma "gives" you education. There was a lot of hardship and planning involved. The Palmah and other para-military organizations even made some terrorist attemps agains the British targets during their rule as a bid for independence. See the King David Hotel bombing.

  32. Those Who Forget History ... by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Oh fuck right off. The Palestinian leaders were acting like arseholes and trying to kill Jews just for being Jewish before the state of Israel even existed. Haj Amin al-Husseini who was the Grand Mufti (religious leader) of the Palestinians (of Jerusalem to be precise) during the 1940s was buddies with notable people like Hitler, Himmler, and anyone who promised to find a gas chamber for every Jew. He actively encouraged the Germans, and worked to dissuade countries from accepting German Jewish refuges forcing them to return to Germany. ALL BEFORE A JEWISH STATE EXISTED, mother fucker. So don't try to tell me that the Jews started anything.

    The Jews were the ones who promised no change in personal property or land or status would take place when Israel was formed, that the status quo shouldn't change, meanwhile their leader(s) and other Arab countries told the Palestinians to get out of the way and to go to the refugee camps while they "pushed the Jews into the sea" with their anti Semitic Arab brotherhood. Now they're sore losers and even the other Arab countries around there won't let them into their own countries because they have so many trouble makers.

    Don't you know Egypt has a big fucking wall set up between them and Palestine too? And when the Palestinians knocked part of it down, the Egyptian army pushed them back in a repaired it. Notice the Muslim Brotherhood haven't opened up the border with Gaza any more than Israel since they were elected?

    So just shut the fuck up until you learn to think on your own instead of running with the crowd in their nouveau cause du jour which they know nothing about, but will surely fuck some innocent people over to make themselves feel like they have a cause.

    I don't give a rat's ass what anyone is. But dirt bags who hide in civilian neighbourhoods and continually fire rockets into other civilian neighbourhoods while screaming how they are so just and hard done by deserve what they get. And the people who don't turn them in deserve it too. You ever think that if these shit bags had ever once tried to be civil there wouldn't be any war there. You know there are a lot of Arabs who live in Israel, vote and even sit in parliament. Jews in the Arab countries have to keep their heads down and not 'rise above themselves'. Get a real education on the subject.

    --
    -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    1. Re:Those Who Forget History ... by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      Shhhh,,,,.....

      Don't provide facts, you might distrub their liberal fantasies.

    2. Re:Those Who Forget History ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only fact I need for my liberal fantasy: Map of Isael

    3. Re:Those Who Forget History ... by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 1

      I have to admit, I don't know much about the origins of this never ending conflict.

      I do know however that Israel has a functional state and government that speaks and acts with one voice, whereas the main Palestinian authorities struggle to cooperate with -and contain- splinter groups that often act independently.
      Israel has the functional institutions and strong, modern military, whereas Palestinians have inter-faction rivalries and makeshift rockets.

      Now, when some angry youths on the Palestinian side decide to fire rockets into Israel, which more often than not cause no casualties or significant destruction, and Israel responds with air strikes that kill dozens, including uninvolved civilians, that is:
      - disproportional retaliation
      - irresponsible application of force
      - ineffective as a deterrent - every death creates more enemies
      - indiscriminate collective punishment of innocents due to the acts of a few
      - unworthy of a democratic, free country

      As I see it, Israel has the greater power, and therefore also the greater responsibility. The fact that this conflict still exists and that people are still dying is hard proof that the ways in which Israel deals with the situation are not working - have never been working. And still they don't change.

    4. Re:Those Who Forget History ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the people who don't turn them in deserve it too.

      From their point of view ... they're being shot at, and killed. And you think they should turn in the only people who are shooting back at their killers?

      Neither side is blameless here, but the dead civilians (again, on both sides) come pretty close to it.

    5. Re:Those Who Forget History ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You want facts?

      1. You may not be aware that the British offered Uganda as a refuge, which the Zionist Congress effectively rejected between 1903 to 1905: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/Uganda.html

      2. I'll see your Haj Amin al-Husseini and raise you the Battle of Tel Hai and the 1920 Nebi Musa riots, which were the reactions to the Zionists trying to gain control over the land by any means they could.

      You want to paint Israelis as the good guys in this, but most of the modern problems had its roots at least 150 years earlier when Zionism not only pushed for a separate Jewish state but evolved into making it the Biblical homeland.

      When the Ottoman Empire was waning away and Zionists tried to use British influence (Mandatory Palestine, after World War 1) and then later the League of Nations to make the land theirs, is when the shit storm really started.

    6. Re:Those Who Forget History ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or when the Arabs built a mosque on the only temple in the Jewish religion and like every other fucking mosque run around saying how it is the second most important next to mecca, just like every mosque in the region.

      We all know though that you 'd be having a hissy fit saying how they so horrible the were if they went to Africa since they would have displaced people from their homeland. Meanwhile the Jewish homeland is where they are now. They have far more claim on it than anyone. And even if you don't believe in God, the bible is still a very good historical record of who peopled the land, and for many more thousand of years than not, it was their homeland. And it is the only democratic country in the whole region. Palestinian elections. Fuck off. They can't even agree on a single president at the end.

      And I never heard of any Jews coercing governments into sending thousands of children back to death camps. And that motherfucker knew he was sending all those children back to eastern Europe to be turned into lampshades and ash and soap for the Nazis. And he was loving it. al-Husseini was as bad as Hitler and Himmler and should have been hanged by the nuts with piano wire. Then shot.

      TSMC

    7. Re:Those Who Forget History ... by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      I see, israel should 'fix' things.

      want to tell us how the arabs will accept israel's fix? one that does not include driving the jews (all of them, not just israelis) into the sea, as they are so fond of repeating (in arabic, never in english).

      israel waits for the entire moslem world to grow the fuck up and get with the program.

      the fact that the barbarians won't join the 21st century is NOT israel's fault.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    8. Re:Those Who Forget History ... by tbird81 · · Score: 1

      The solution would be for Israel to clear the Gaza strip of religious zealots - but they'd receive much condemnation for that.

      If some streetkid stabs your wife, are you responsible because you're richer and more organised?

    9. Re:Those Who Forget History ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ALL BEFORE A JEWISH STATE EXISTED, mother fucker. So don't try to tell me that the Jews started anything.

      I'm sure the anti-semites did something before all this for everyone to hate them.

    10. Re:Those Who Forget History ... by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 1

      If some streetkid stabs my wife, I try to find out why he did it, bring him to justice and take measures so that something like this doesn't happen again.

      Israels measures consist of throwing a grenade through the window of the home he lives in. Possibly killing the kid and his parents. The next day, his two brothers and one of his friends stand behind the corner, armed with knives.
      As I said, answering violence with violence has been the strategy of the last century, and so far that has lead nowhere. Air strikes are not effective at making palestinian terrorists 'regretful' or 'intimidated'. All they do is create more hate and resentment towards Israel.

      Maybe, after 100 years of eye for an eye, it's time for a new approach.

    11. Re:Those Who Forget History ... by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 1

      I agree that Hamas' stand of 'never' accepting Israel is a problem. But I believe this situation has been exasperated by Israels policy of extreme retaliation and determent, which does not work and has, over generations, made many palestinians hateful and irreconcilable towards Israel.

      It will be a long way to peace and some kind of solution. But unless Israel wants to walk in the footsteps of the Nazis and engage into some kind of monstruous, genocidal extermination program, this way will have to begin with a commitment to peace and a renounciation of violence. You reap what you sow.

    12. Re:Those Who Forget History ... by Deus.1.01 · · Score: 1

      Before Israel existed yes, after the Balfour declaration.

      Tension began and escalated between the locals and an influx of immigrants many of them with a zeal about starting the new homeland.

      Imagine why, when you and your family have lived there your whole life then people are streaming in with claims of nationalist irredentism.

      Shit were bound to hit the fan, and there were ethnic violence going back and forth going on in the entire interwar period.

      Al-Husseini, came from this period, Irgun came from this period and Lehi.

      So, if you are to drag shit up from history to fling....don't be picky.

      Oh, and the first victim to be killed during all this...was Jewish.

      He was killed by a Jewish nationalist because he tried to organize cooperation and reached out to the existing groups.

      --
      My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
    13. Re:Those Who Forget History ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a moron. This conflict started before 1940s and the Jews contributed to it too.

      However it was neither of the peoples' fault. By promising the same set of land to two people whom both experienced a contentious history, conflict was bound to happen. By not effectively dealing with the conflicts, of course violence and bigotry would break out. Blaming either Israel or Palestine is silly. Blame the West during its imperialist and racist era, then during WW1 when any and all factions were beneficial.

    14. Re:Those Who Forget History ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should that "real education on the subject" start here?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

      If there's one thing that bothers the hell out of me, it's guys like you who "pimp" your lie-ridden diatribe with profanity, as if you are really "telling it like it is", and then, to make matters worse, actually get modded 5, interesting by fellow lying cowards and sympathetic ideologues.

      Slashdot, slowly drifting towards moral and intellectual oblivion, with lying, revisionist right wing kooks lurking in the comment section who actually get rewarded for their lies; lies such as "So don't try to tell me that the Jews started anything."

  33. What did they expect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the country that invented the first commercial successful state-full firewall ( Checkpoint )

    What did they expect?

  34. Anonymous is too cowardly, that's why. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remember when Anonymous said they would "out" members of the Mexican cartels? Then the cartels said they'd kill anyone who "outed" them. Then Anonymous cancelled their plans.

    1. Re:Anonymous is too cowardly, that's why. by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      Imagine what would have happened, if Anonymous started hitting Palestinian sites as soon as they launched missiles? and then hit any news coverege sites.

      Wonder what retaliation would occur....

  35. Anonymous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why did the OP mention Anonymous? Just because Isreal is being cyber attacked doesn't mean Anonymous is involved.
    It seams that every time someone gets attacked Anonymous gets the blame/credit (depending who's side your on).
    From what I know of IT security, 44 million attacks against a high profile target does not seem like an incredible amount. I would have a guess that most large government organizations would repel this number of attacks on a regular basis.
    What do they consider an attack? If they are counting every scan or flood then they are over exaggerating the effort.

  36. Troublemakers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All the middle east is from both sides. They're related from ancient times too. They never seem to end it. WTF is wrong with them all over there? Go on. Fight your fight until it's over. Keep clear of the rest of us all, keep us out of it. It's not our fight after all. It's yours.

  37. Please by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

    Israel just knows what all of us geniuses here already know: Don't make your defense system available over the public internet, and it won't get hacked. Even Donald Knuth writes his books on a laptop without an internet connection, and it's just a book!

  38. Re:Free Fucking Tibet... by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    Oh yeah, forgot to mention that the Israelis actually "bought" much of their land from the prior Arab owners.

    The issue is, to extreme Islamicists, once land is Muslim it can never be allowed to become un-muslim.

  39. Big whoop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Nearly all" attacks failing kind of implies that - well, it keeps things down, but a few attacks get through.

    So what he's saying is "Yeah, we've got a firewall but it's not perfect. Just like every frickin' company, government and bowling club on the planet."

  40. You know... by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    You just might be right...

    Which is nice for a change, usually it's all "leftist" leaning. Guess you know how every other day on Slashdot tends to feel for the rest of us. ;-)

    1. Re:You know... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      You just might be right...

      Which is nice for a change, usually it's all "leftist" leaning. Guess you know how every other day on Slashdot tends to feel for the rest of us. ;-)

      You can be leftist and support the right of democratic Israel to protect itself . Not all leftists are 100% pro-Arab.

      It's mainly Israel's links with the US that annoy most leftists outside America.

      BTW if you think slashdot is "leftist" you need to get out more.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  41. Good vs Evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opinion/israels-shortsighted-assassination.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0

    It's ignorant to think the history of this conflict is so one sided that Israel has always been the ONLY rational actor and the 'good' guys in this fight. The truth, as evidenced in this article, is much more complicated than that.

    But no matter, individuals will continue to pick sides, whether they have a personal dog in this fight and their opinions, right or wrong, won't really count for shit in the long run for one simple reason: Neither the current crop of Israeli leaders nor the Palestinians leaders have any interest in pursuing an actual, workable peace process and will continue to be guided by their self-interests until one side submits. There will come a point where outside supporters, most notable the US, will come to realise that their own self-interests can only suffer through their continued involvement and will eventually declare "a plague on both their houses" and leave them be.

  42. New targets? by Cute+and+Cuddly · · Score: 0

    Perhaps Anonymous should try an indirect attach. Instead of attacking israel itself, attack all the suppliers. Stop port operations when a ship is destined to israel with any kind of goods or when products from israel are arriving to a third country. That would certainly at least slow down the flow of money and goods to that genocidal regime

  43. Mel Gibson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I didn't realize you posted here. Any new Lethal Weapon movies in pre-production?

  44. more rights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/the-triumph-greater-israel-7438

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opinion/israels-shortsighted-assassination.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0

    http://politicalcorrection.org/fpmatters/201110190003

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/two-decades-of-secret-israeli-palestinian-accords-leaked-to-media-worldwide-1.338768

    The truth always lies a little somewhere in the middle.

  45. The Zionist 'State of Israel' is an abomination... by __aasehi2499 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    The biggest mistake of the twentieth century was enabling the formation of the modern 'State of Israel' and equating it with divine prophecy and having the same status with biblical Israel. Christian Zionists are the biggest hypocrites for supporting the dead and obsolete way of Judaism. They believe that there is now two peoples of God and discredit their own Gospel of Jesus Christ by saying so. The redemptive act of Christ on the cross is all for naught when you continue to prop up and enable a system that Jesus completed in himself as no other person could have done. For there to be a any national Israel today is to throw away the Kingdom of God that Jesus brought about and is King of, as well as High Priest of, today and forever. Jew are of course free to believe as they wish, but they should also not be hypocrites in asking Christians for help to do something that is antithetical to the core of Christian belief i.e. enable their Judaism.

    There is the other side of the argument that we should support the 'State of Israel' because it is a 'bastion of democracy' in the Middle East. To this I would point out that the 'State of Israel' has a parliamentary system, with no constitution, and a unicameral legislature that elects its members using the party-list proportional method that results in persons being appointed before or even after the vote. It has no trial by jury. It has what some countries like South Africa, who ought to know, call an apartheid way of life that is leveled against person both within and without it's borders. It has a socialist foundation for its makeup stemming from the kibbutzim that were used as a foothold in British Mandate Palestine. The kibbutzim were used to create a new 'Israeli' people, separating children from their parents to be raised by proctors that would teach primarily Hebrew as the language, and Israeli nationalist identity to manufacture a people that would not adopt any of the old European languages, habits, mannerisms and traditions from their parents who were immigrantsThere were militias formed even prior to WWII in order to begin taking and securing land for the purpose of forming a new country from the leftovers of the Ottoman empire. There are many questions as to how things could have turned out had Palestine not been the insisted upon destination for the Jewish people, not to mention that even if things hadn't been different, there is no reason they couldn't have just gone back top their homes, and not displaced others from theirs. . The British mandate that was created with the participation of the international community on conditions that there be a two-state solution with Jerusalem as the capital of both states was violated with the midnight declaration of the formation of the 'State of Israel' in 1948. This same international community, which the World Zionist Congress and other Jewish organizations like the Jewish Agency received support from to procure their chief goal, now is considered unwelcome to offer any criticism of the 'State of Israel'. They do not partake in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty that the rest of the responsible members of the Nuclear Club abide by. All of this of course doesn't change the fact there are millions of people now in Palestine/'State of Israel' which need to figure something out that is equitable to both 'Israelis' and Palestinians, restitution not being out of the question in my mind. The Jews sought restitution from the world following WWII, why not the displaced Arabs and Palestinians following the Nakba?

  46. FTFY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They could be. All they need to do acknowledge that Palestine is a legitimate nation. But you know, Likud won't do that. They want to abolish Palestine. Kind of hard for Palestine to leave alone people who want to destroy it.

    FTFY

  47. propaganda - yes, we are annoyed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "meaning that they could be replaced by a duplicate site instantly if the original site were compromised."

    Instantly? Wow... that is quite a feat - usually someone has to press a button to do that which takes at least a tenth of a second. Instantly really?

  48. Cyber defense systems which I am sure... by malv · · Score: 0

    Cyber defense systems which I am sure are paid for by the US.

    I've never understand the support for Israel in the US. Frankly, I think most of it is astroturfing. Israel is a country which receives plenty of support from the US. What does the US receive that makes them our Allies? The answer, some intelligence so that we can fight their wars. Now why would any American support sending US tax dollars and support to a country that provides us virtually nothing? Why would any American feel compelled to join the military to fight Israels wars?

    Simple. Media and political brainwashing. Your politicians are paid to give your tax dollars to Israel. That is why they are elected. Because Zionists moneybomb all US politicians that serve Israel.

    If you're an American supporting Israel you are nothing more than a complete and utter fool.

    1. Re:Cyber defense systems which I am sure... by crutchy · · Score: 1

      Cyber defense systems which I am sure are paid for by the US.

      paid for: yes, implemented by: not a chance

  49. Good to see Slashdot is open for business. by Andy+Prough · · Score: 1

    All religious and geopolitical problems solved in one hour or less. And still plenty of time to get Gangnam Style over 800 million views.

  50. 40 millions? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 2

    Man, with 40 millions cyber-terrorists to catch, I surely hope the cyber-defense department is well funded... Do we have to repeat such numbers when they are obviously irrelevant? There have obviously not been 40 millions different attacks. They have probably counted the number of connections from a DDoS attempt. By putting such a number here, we have strictly no informations on the number of attacks. It could be a single DDoS so far as we know...

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
  51. not really a good thing by kenorland · · Score: 1

    A totally secure cyber infrastructure is like a totally secure home: just not very pleasant to live with.

    1. Re:not really a good thing by crutchy · · Score: 1

      just let us know where you live then

  52. Were Anonymous that impressive to begin with? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure there is strength in numbers and Anonymous has made great efforts to show the generally ignorant majority some great injustices in the world, but some of the more seasoned internet users will surely remember that Anonymous as a "hacker collective" originally stemmed from a number of anarchic 4channers capable of little more than poorly organized DDoS attacks. Does anybody remember zf0's infamous takedown and publishing of pre-lulzsec Anonymous in their 4th e-zine or is that too underground by nowadays' standards?

  53. The internet war by Presto+Vivace · · Score: 1

    Tim Pool on the Israeli/Palestinian internet war.

  54. Re:Free Fucking Tibet... by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

    However, the leadership that those same Palestinians elected have it in their very charter that all Jews (not just Israeli citizens, but those of Jewish heritage) should be wiped out. Then those same people launch missiles over the border, and yet when Israel responds to defend themselves you complain?

    I find it EXTREMELY disturbing that the anti semitism in the US is reaching dangerously high levels (again, sigh!).

    it seems 'cool' to dis jews, these days. definitely on the rise again for some reason.

    how many times do they need to keep fighting to survive against the collective world's hatred of them?

    and WHY, going back thousands of years, is the world so bent on destroying jews?

    I just don't get it. I really don't. are people so in need of a boogeyman that they drag out the old jew-hatred time and time again to make themselves feel superior?

    I don't like the direction this country is going in, in this regard. its cool and hip to attack the jewish culture and put the blame on them for all the mid-east's problems.

    --

    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  55. Propaganda. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Go look at idfblog.com, and hella lots others

  56. I think he means by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    real anons - he ones that don't call themselves anons - they're just anons

    1. Re:I think he means by Qu4Z · · Score: 1

      I think perhaps real anons have better things to do. At least, I'd hope so.

  57. impervious to hacks.... by crutchy · · Score: 1

    ...they must surely be using windows servers with iis :)

  58. Re:Free Fucking Tibet... by WilliamGeorge · · Score: 1

    It is actually one of the interesting things about the world we live in which make me more sure of my beliefs - it, and the general conflict the Middle East seems to always be in, is a further evidence that something is special about the people groups and places involved.

    --
    William George
  59. Treary of Paris by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Er, colloquially perhaps.

    The Treaty of Paris, ratified by the British Parliament in 1784, in the first article "[acknowledges] the United States to be a free, sovereign and independent nation, and that the British Crown and all heirs and successors relinquish claims to the Government, property, and territorial rights of the same, and every part thereof."

    Of course, we had another war about 30 years later to "clarify" that position, but that's the official word.

  60. Reminds me of the USSR by TheSeatOfMyPants · · Score: 1

    Back during the Cold War, the USSR went to lengths to convince the world that it was near-invincible & thriving; when horrible things happened like Chernobyl, even their own citizens were told that everything was fine and the government had it all under control. Being honest, showing any weakness, would have been like issuing an invite to attack them -- it was a big shock when we all finally got to see beyond the propaganda.

    Likewise, there's no way that Israel is going to admit it even if serious security-trashing damage is caused by hackers. Telling the world of damage would let hackers (some of which might be working for an enemy) know of a weak point, give massive cred to whichever group had succeeded, and encourage others to gain fame the same way. Did anyone really expect them Israel's leaders to not consider that?

    --
    Now mostly at Usenet:comp.misc & SoylentNews.org (it's made of people!)
  61. this message brought to you buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    real hackers....we aren't getting involved ....both sides are wrong....and script kiddies are idiots especially govt ones.

  62. As we know from N:C:I:S... by w4rl5ck · · Score: 1

    ... the mossad uses Macs.

  63. Linux is better, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    2012:

    New Linux Rootkit Emerges:

    https://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/new-linux-rootkit-emerges-112012

    "A new Linux rootkit has emerged and researchers who have analyzed its code and operation say that the malware appears to be a custom-written tool designed to inject iframes into Web sites and drive traffic to malicious sites for drive-by download attacks. The rootkit is designed specifically for 64-bit Linux systems."

    ---

    'FIRST ever' Linux, Mac OS X-only password sniffing virus spotted:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/29/linux_mac_trojan/

    ---

    Medicaid hack update: 500,000 records and 280,000 SSNs stolen:

    http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/medicaid-hack-update-500000-records-and-280000-ssns-stolen/11444

    So, what's dts.utah.gov running everyone?

    LINUX (and yes, it got HACKED) -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=dts.utah.gov

    What's health.utah.gov running too??

    YOU GUESSED IT: LINUX AGAIN -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=health.utah.gov

    * Ah, yes - see the YEARS OF /. "BS" FUD is CRUMBLING AROUND THE PENGUINS EARS HERE & 2012's starting out just like 2011 did below!

    ===

    2011:

    KERNEL.ORG COMPROMISED - The Cracking of Kernel.org: (that's VERY bad - do you trust it now?)

    http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/08/31/2321232/Kernelorg-Compromised

    ---

    Linux.com pwned in fresh round of cyber break-ins:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/12/more_linux_sites_down/

    ---

    Mysql.com Hacked, Made To Serve Malware:

    http://it.slashdot.org/story/11/09/26/2218238/mysqlcom-hacked-made-to-serve-malware

    What's that site running? You guessed it - Linux -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=mysql.com

    ---

    London Stock Exchange serving malware:

    http://slashdot.org/submission/1484548/London-Stock-Exchange-Web-Site-Serving-Malware

    (I mean hey - NOT ONLY DID LINUX FALL FLAT ON ITS FACE less than a few minutes into the job http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/02/19/0147232/London-Stock-Exchange-Price-Errors-Emerged-At-Linux-Launch, & crash not only ONCE, but TWICE there? You see "Linux 'fine security'" in motion @ the LSE too!)

    ---

    DUQU ROOTKIT/BOTNET BEING SERVED FROM LINUX SERVERS:

    http://it.slashdot.org/story/11/11/30/1610228/duqu-attackers-managed-to-wipe-cc-servers

    ---

    Linux Foundation, Linux.com Sites Down To Fix Security Breach:

    http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/09/11/1325212/linux-foundation-linuxcom-sites-down-to-fix-security-breach

    ---

    Linux's showing in CA's breached recently too? Ok: (very, Very, VERY BAD for ecommerce, online shopping, banking, etc./et al)

    1. Re:Linux is better, right? by crutchy · · Score: 1

      at least you can fit all the linux exploits in a single post.... it would require a rather large book to highlight windows, sql server and iis exploits

      your message just isn't getting through because big companies keep investing in linux... even microsoft hosts linux vms on azure so it can get in on the action
      http://www.windowsazure.com/en-us/manage/linux/

      maybe you should put some bandaids on those "open sores" of yours

  64. ex hamas member son of the founder of hamas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    true story.... the founder of hamas his son has stated "The biggest terrorist is the God of the Quran."

    HAMAS SON: ISLAM IS A RELIGION THAT TEACHES PEOPLE TO KILL
    Islam is not a religion of peace. The biggest terrorist is the God of the Quran.
    This is a statement of Mosab Hassan Yousef, who helped Israel’s security forces in their fight against the Islamic militant group Hamas.
    I know this is very dangerous and this will offend many people. The more you follow the steps of the prophet of Islam and the God of Islam, the more you get close to being a terrorist.
    Yousef got a story to tell in his new book Son of Hamas.
    To be honest with you, being killed is not the worst thing that can happen, he said Wednesday in an interview with The Associated Press. If they want to do kill me let them do it, and they will be responsible for my blood..
    In his memoir, Yousef, the 32-year-old son of a Hamas founder, claims he was one of the Shin Bet security agency’s best assets and was dubbed The Green Prince, a reference to his Hamas pedigree and the Islamists’ signature green color.
    During his 50-minute interview, for which he arrived with armed security, Yousef criticized Hamas leaders including political chief Khaled Meshaal. He lashed out at Hamas, saying the organization lives in the Middle Ages.
    And he hurled his most inflammatory comments at Islam, which he called a religion that teaches people to kill.
    Source: Jerusalem Post
    My comment:
    It is amazing to see that Christian leaders have started to defend Islam. While Muslim converts, who know the “god of Islam”, warns against the religion they once practiced.

  65. Anonymous Messing with the Wrong Peeps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mossad is not to be fucked with. They are the kings of deception and espionage and have a decades long history of such shenanigans. If I were Anonymous, I would be worried I'd end up dead in a ditch like some of those Iranian nuclear scientists.

  66. Re:They sure are great at Propaganda by JBaustian · · Score: 1

    Anonymous Cowards sure are great at cowardice.

  67. Conscripted Techies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Israel's excellence in IT, IT security and intelligence in general is due in a large part to some first-rate technical schools (and STEM focused high-school) along with the automatic conscription of a large part of the populace for a few years. After using their mad IT skills to avoid combat branches of the military, they then go on to join the workforce with disciplined compliance with standards, best practices and real-world experience.

  68. What kernel does ANDROID use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Answer that please - then, "tell us another one" (that book's so big already, & only a "portent of things to come"... getting "NuKeD" almost DAILY, lol...).

    * No more hiding behind "security-by-obscurity" on that smartphone is there?

    That server marketshare's also starting to "show its tell" as well, see link below, & "drink it in, & digest it", along with eating your words flavored with the bitter taste of "SELF-defeat", & your foot in your mouth along with it...

    Trust me: Based on that alone - You Penguins do NOT want to see "the day of the Linux desktop" on a PC, ever... or, it'll be like it is on smartphones.

    APK

    P.S.=> The "Linux 'security-threater' 2011 - 2012 here:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3263923&cid=42057067

    Always elicits these "vain protests" from the biggest "FUD" spreaders in the cosmos: "the 'Pro-*NIX /. troll'" - who for YEARS here said "linux = secure, windows != secure" type b.s. nigh constantly!

    To you, & those like you ... refer to the link above, & what I ask as a question above here - answer it... "eat your words", troll!

    ... apk

    1. Re:What kernel does ANDROID use? by crutchy · · Score: 1

      i'll respond to the first one, but i'm not going to bother shutting down all your FUD because you'll no doubt just come with more bullshit anyway... i do enjoy reading bits of your pointless and desperate responses though :)

      regarding "New Linux Rootkit Emerges", try having a read of this comment under TFA:
      http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3263519&cid=42056119
      http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3263519&cid=42047399
      http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3263519&cid=42077989

      there is no proof that it is even a rootkit... its just more FUD

      how stupid do you think the IT world is? linux is getting more popular, and windows 8 is struggling (even by microsoft's own admission), and azure hosts linux servers because that's what their customers want

      ...and you know what's nice for us pro-linux folk; linux will endure in the community that develops it, uses it and loves it regardless of what the corporate world thinks or does... linux will be evolved, forked, adapted, etc while companies come and go. there is no need to worry about profit margins, shareholder satisfaction or market share. linus torvalds started linux because he was interested in computers and the tools he needed were too expensive so he developed his own and he was happy to share his work, and the open source community has evolved around that simple and extremely powerful idea. no matter what the corporate world does, open source ideals are inevitably invulnerable, the same as religion and even communism.

      i think companies are beginning to trust linux more and more because of the open source community spirit and increasing momentum in the development of linux by some very big players (like IBM and Oracle) that would no doubt instill a lot of confidence in other companies to escape the microsoft prison. companies don't have to feel locked in or ripped off if they use linux.

      even if the name "linux" eventually becomes irrelevant, the open source community spirit will be its enduring legacy, and shills and FUD spreaders will never be able to kill it... i guess that must totally suck for you :)

  69. You avoid a simple question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Reply with the answer to the question here -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3263923&cid=42078237

    (To a VERY simple question too, no less, I get "trollish evasive maneuvers"? Please... lol!)

    APK

    P.S.=> So, as you can all see (to those reading) - The "Pro-*NIX Troll", when backed into a corner having to answer a simple question that will DUST him? Will run from simple questions, every single time - hahahaha...

    ... apk

    1. Re:You avoid a simple question by crutchy · · Score: 1

      try asking your question in your post without all the bullshit (i never read the subject of your posts)

      android runs the linux kernel... a simple google search would have told you that

      not that it supports any of your claims, since majority of android malware is a userspace problem, not a kernel problem

      can you point to any kernel exploits in android?

      ...and just because someone calls it a "rootkit" doesn't mean anything unless it is accompanied by some kind of explanation of how root privelige is achieved

      https://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/new-linux-rootkit-emerges-112012
      ...i read this and it is just a load of bullshit FUD to anyone but morons like you
      from TFA: "It's unclear exactly how the servers have become infected"

  70. Android's a LINUX ('CruTcHy' FINALLY admits it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Finally, he admits it - and what happens to ANDROID (linux) weekly, now that it can't "hide" via "security-by-obscurity" anymore on smartphones like it does on PC Desktops?

    * That's RIGHT kids - you guessed it -> Weekly exploits....

    APK

    P.S.=> So much for YEARS of "Linux = Secure, Windows != Secure" from FOOLS LIKE YOURSELF here on /., eh?

    Your "FUD" campaigns are crumbling around your EARS, like all "FUD" always does in the end...

    ... apk

    1. Re:Android's a LINUX ('CruTcHy' FINALLY admits it) by webmistressrachel · · Score: 1

      That's incorrect.

      Do you think any large percentage of people's phones is auto-dialling premium numbers or taking data / info?

      Well you'd be wrong. The same open ideals that secure most of the world's servers - many eyeballs, many bugfixes - powers my smartphone, and most others by deployed numbers in my country.

      The vulnerabilities, as you call them, aren't vulnerabilities as you know them. They don't travel over the internetwork, or the GSM line, they don't attack through any firewall - they are given permission, by a tiny majority of stupid users, by installing apps and games without giving them time to mature and be tested - and those apps and games are soon swept away by the majority opinion.

      Android is very secure. Prove otherwise, with practical examples, please.

      Rachel

      --
      This tagline was transcoded to result in at least one smirk. If you experience failure to smirk, please consult your Gen
    2. Re:Android's a LINUX ('CruTcHy' FINALLY admits it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      tell us how you use TOR to cheat the system here troll http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3264195&cid=42081329 since we already know you keep multiple registered accounts on slashdot like tomhudson, and Barbara, not Barbie (and others).

  71. It's no secret Android's a Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Crutchy finally admitted it. It's also no secret it gets exploited weekly.

    You see it in the news constantly. So many examples I can't even BEGIN to put them all together & reply quickly in fact, lol...

    (E.G.-> I have a SMALL partial list of them only spanning roughly 150++ of them in fact... as "examples thereof" & everyone SEES THEM ANYHOW on sites like this!)

    ---

    As to "the world's servers" (since Linux has roughly a 50/50 split share of that in the Fortune 100-500)?

    I post data from 2011-2012!

    Data that shows your days of 'security-by-obscurity' are OVER on servers, just as it is on smartphones, troll: (as is the outrageous "FUD" of "linux = secure, windows != secure" you heard here on /. for ages):

    2012:

    New Linux Rootkit Emerges:

    https://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/new-linux-rootkit-emerges-112012

    "A new Linux rootkit has emerged and researchers who have analyzed its code and operation say that the malware appears to be a custom-written tool designed to inject iframes into Web sites and drive traffic to malicious sites for drive-by download attacks. The rootkit is designed specifically for 64-bit Linux systems."

    ---

    'FIRST ever' Linux, Mac OS X-only password sniffing virus spotted:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/29/linux_mac_trojan/

    ---

    Medicaid hack update: 500,000 records and 280,000 SSNs stolen:

    http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/medicaid-hack-update-500000-records-and-280000-ssns-stolen/11444

    So, what's dts.utah.gov running everyone?

    LINUX (and yes, it got HACKED) -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=dts.utah.gov

    What's health.utah.gov running too??

    YOU GUESSED IT: LINUX AGAIN -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=health.utah.gov

    * Ah, yes - see the YEARS OF /. "BS" FUD is CRUMBLING AROUND THE PENGUINS EARS HERE & 2012's starting out just like 2011 did below!

    ===

    2011:

    KERNEL.ORG COMPROMISED - The Cracking of Kernel.org: (that's VERY bad - do you trust it now?)

    http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/08/31/2321232/Kernelorg-Compromised

    ---

    Linux.com pwned in fresh round of cyber break-ins:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/12/more_linux_sites_down/

    ---

    Mysql.com Hacked, Made To Serve Malware:

    http://it.slashdot.org/story/11/09/26/2218238/mysqlcom-hacked-made-to-serve-malware

    What's that site running? You guessed it - Linux -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=mysql.com

    ---

    London Stock Exchange serving malware:

    http://slashdot.org/submission/1484548/London-Stock-Exchange-Web-Site-Serving-Malware

    (I mean hey - NOT ONLY DID LINUX FALL FLAT ON ITS FACE less than a few minutes into the job http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/02/19/0147232/London-Stock-Exchange-Price-Errors-Emerged-At-Linux-Launch, & crash not only ONCE, but TWICE there? You see "Linux 'fine security'" in motion @ the LSE to

    1. Re:It's no secret Android's a Linux by crutchy · · Score: 1

      have you even read any of these articles?

      surely you're at least a bit embarrassed posting this shit, no?

      it's funny and all, but it doesn't help whatever argument you're trying to make, except that you're an idiot of course

      keep going though.... you keep building up that /. database of APK ignorance :)

  72. You're so full of it, it's laughable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Many eyeballs on open SORES code works the other way too. It's far easier to step-trace actual sourcecode for vulnerabilities than it is disassembling closed source code to do so, or using "fuzzers" on it to do so.

    Now you try to tell us that all the problems Android (a linux since it uses a linux kernel) are "just nothing", right?

    Wake up, smell the coffee troll:

    It's only showing you "a portent of things to come" (not that it EVER will, since the year of Linux desktop is never going to happen and you know it)!

    Besides - you do NOT want to see "year of the linux desktop" since if you do? Android shows you just what will happen, albeit on PC desktops instead of smartphones. Just as how this year Linux servers (and BSD ones) have been broken into & hacked since it's got about a 50/50 split over servers out there in the Fortune 100/500...

    HOWEVER:

    This was the worst of your b.s. though, in you being caught in the act using TOR to stalk/harass others on slashdot via your multiple registered accounts everyone here knows you use, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3264195&cid=42081329

    APK

    P.S.=> Funniest part of all is, she SHUT RIGHT UP, after I posted her own words to "do her in" in that link above, lol...

    Yes - it is always the same - women *try* to "play smart" in a MAN's WORLD, & end up with EGG ON THEIR FACES, lol...

    ... apk

    1. Re:You're so full of it, it's laughable by crutchy · · Score: 1

      you keep talking about all these supposed "vulnerabilities" yet you can't come up with any except links to more of your ignorant jibberish comments and stories by tabloids who have no idea what they're on about and who can easily be proven wrong...

      tell me how you would break into a linux web server will all your accumulated knowledge on the exploits and vulnerabilities of "open sores"...

      i bet you can't because you're all talk, but i look forward to your bullshit jibberish response :)

  73. 'CruTcHy' (lol): Calm down boy... lol! apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Facts will elicit "FoaMiNg-@-The-MouTh" ravings like (lol) 'CruTcHy''s, here -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3263923&cid=42084751

    ---

    PRIME EXAMPLE QUOTED EXCERPT:

    "links to more of your ignorant jibberish comments and stories by tabloids who have no idea what they're on about" - by crutchy (1949900) on Saturday November 24, @09:36PM (#42084751)

    ---

    Oh yes, that's right everyone - "hot off the presses":

    ONLY (lol) 'CruTcHy' - "the master of ALL things mystical" is an authority figure to be believed! His word, is law (lol, not).

    NewsFlash/New News/Clue: That list of mine's just more than you've got & can handle, and it makes me laugh everytime I post those Linux screwups in security 2011-2012 (just to see this "fuddish" attempt @ 'spin' type of "ReAcTioN' from you or those like you, lol)...

    APK

    P.S.=> Give us a break, 'CruTcHy'...

    ... apk

    1. Re:'CruTcHy' (lol): Calm down boy... lol! apk by crutchy · · Score: 1

      *chuckles*

      more bullshit as expected

      nothing about actual vulnerabilities

      you're disappointing APK... here I was actually hoping you might come up with something good that I could go to work on, but alas nothing of substance as usual

  74. The facts I posted "too much for you"? Yes... lol! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "FoAmiNg-@-The-MouTh 'ReAcTioN'" I just got outta you? Priceless!!!

    Yes I read them - the links I posted show security blunders for Linux in a variety of roles all thru 2011-present in late 2012... you can't handle it, since your era of outrageous "fud" is over!

    * You're now showing us "your tell", & that You are caught with your "FUD" spreading Pro-*NIX pants down, unable to defend vs. facts in those articles' facts they extoll on Linux security blunders in 2011-2012!

    (That's right - No more security by obscurity to hide behind is there (not on smartphones, ANDROID a Linux? Nuked daily..., & not on servers, where it's about a 50/50 split Windows vs. Linux in the Fortune 100-500 for various tasks)).

    APK

    P.S.=> 'CruTcHy' (lol), listen: You FAIL... Accept it!

    ... apk

  75. Re:The facts I posted "too much for you"? Yes... l by crutchy · · Score: 1

    i don't think you've read them, because they don't show "security blunders for Linux"

    keep going though... this is some funny shit :)

  76. No b.s. in this link (linux hacked & more) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3263923&cid=42057067

    * Per my subject-line above - You may not LIKE those facts, but facts ARE FACTS, nonetheless...

    APK

    P.S.=> You aren't capable of matching wits with me (or accomplishments in the art & science of computing that I did while YOU WERE STILL IN DIAPERS I strongly wager, that was established LONG ago)...

    ... apk

    1. Re:No b.s. in this link (linux hacked & more) by crutchy · · Score: 1

      No b.s. in this link (linux hacked & more)

      everything you post is bullshit... but at least it has some entertainment value

      you can't even post bug-free Python

    2. Re:No b.s. in this link (linux hacked & more) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His post's a compilation of verified facts on security mishaps in Linux. No bullshit there. I took a look at his code and it ran 5 times perfectly in front of you. That ought to be information enough for you that you are in error on that much as well.

    3. Re:No b.s. in this link (linux hacked & more) by crutchy · · Score: 1

      His post's a compilation of verified facts on security mishaps in Linux.

      no its not... try actually reading them and you will understand why

      I took a look at his code and it ran 5 times perfectly in front of you.

      i don't care what supposedly "ran"... at the end of the day the code that is actually posted has a bug

    4. Re:No b.s. in this link (linux hacked & more) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're make no sense. I saw his code do it's work 5 times perfectly so it's obviously fine. Data he posted on Linux from the past year were indeed security issues that had verifiable reputable sources.

    5. Re:No b.s. in this link (linux hacked & more) by crutchy · · Score: 1

      you either never read the code that you post, or you really are ignorant of the bug in it... you can't hide it because you keep posting the same code for all to see :)

    6. Re:No b.s. in this link (linux hacked & more) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen slashdot mess up code on pastes. That's all it is since his code ran perfectly many times.

    7. Re:No b.s. in this link (linux hacked & more) by crutchy · · Score: 1

      slashdot doesn't indent code. the bug was your own. nice try dipshit... "wah it was slashdot's fault because it didn't automagically fix my indenting fuck ups like i expected it to wah"... try again noob

  77. This link has "GOOD THINGS" on Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From recent history spanning 2011-2012, from "invulnerable Linux" (NOT) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3263923&cid=42057067

    * No more "hiding" behind 'security-by-obscurity' (lack of widespread usage/marketshare) on:

    ---

    1.) Smartphones for ANDROID Linux, getting devastated nearly every week no less...

    OR

    2.) On servers (since it is about a 50/50 split with Windows & Linux on servers in the Fortune 100/500 roughly).

    ---

    (LASTLY - there's certainly NO MORE ROOM FOR "FUD" regarding Linux from /. after those, along the lines of what we heard here for YEARS of "linux = secure, windows != secure" )

    QUESTION: How "SECURE" is Linux in the link above? Hmmm??

    APK

    P.S.=> You can *try* to put your b.s. "FUD" type "spin" on those BAD OCCURENCES on Linux, but it's the same as polishing a turd or putting perfume on a pig - still a turd & still a pig!

    The FUNNIEST PART is, ANDROID is just a "portent of things to come", & it is also WHY You Penguins NEVER WAN TO SEE OR HAVE A "YEAR OF THE LINUX DESKTOP" - you'll be annihilated weekly, and you KNOW it...

    ... apk

    1. Re:This link has "GOOD THINGS" on Linux? by crutchy · · Score: 1

      your FUD isn't even FUD... because there's no fear, uncertainty or doubt about what you post... everyone knows right off the bat that you're full of shit :)

  78. My bad, checking routes during a BGP flap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Left ping -f on...

  79. Funny it ran 5x perfectly then, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Read 'em & weep, 'CruTcHy' (lol), per my subject-line above:

    ---

    http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3258205&cid=42014943

    http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3258205&cid=42016015

    http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3258205&cid=42014957

    http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3258205&cid=42014957

    http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3258205&cid=42015649

    ---

    (So much for "bugs in my code"... the proof's in the pudding it runs perfectly above & that's only a TINY SAMPLING thereof!)

    * Poor little NOOB 'CruTcHy', dwelling forever in his 'mediocrity', never achieving ANYTHING of worth via his alleged "professional works" in programming... lol!

    APK

    P.S.-> Did you get that last part, 'CruTcHy' (lmao)? Good... lol...

    ... apk