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High-Voltage Fences For Zapping Would-Be Copper Thieves
coondoggie writes "It may be a gimmick or the ultimate answer, but a California city this week okay-ed a draft ordinance that would let businesses install 7,000-volt electric fences to protect sites from rampant copper thieves. As reported by the Sacramento CBS station, the reaction from one business owner to the ordinance says it all: 'It'll be a little fun to watch one of these guys get electrocuted holding my fence trying to rob me.'"
Coming soon: "Don't Whiz on the Electric Fence" championship edition.
Oh, no! You have walked into the slavering fangs of a lurking grue!
Start making the recyclers who pay cash for copper keep records and start prosecuting them for receiving stolen goods.
It'll be a lot of fun to see the guy's face when they steal his electric fence wire.
John
Go re-watch Robocop, and keep an eye out for the "Magnavolt" car theft deterrent commercial. Best commercial on TV!
John
A 10 microfarad, 10kV capacitor makes all the difference.
to watch the action?
But this isn't a booby trap.
The fences have to be properly signed, and are only allowed in industrial zoned areas.
Frankly, I think it's a bit overkill, but I totally understand. A local yard was robbed of commercial sized spools of copper wire, had to cost a ton. Even worse, thieves have been opening the access panel on street lights and using their cars to pull the wire out.
Rancho Cordova (where this passed) has long been seen as a higher crime area, not surprised they're going to these lengths at all.
-nbr
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
But if the government gave you permission to put in the booby trap, they might have trouble getting a conviction. But seriously, all this means is the copper thieves will have to use insulated tools to cut the electrified wire first.
An intentionally lethal trap is illegal. But an electric fence is not necessarily lethal. 7,000 volts is lower than a typical cattle fence.
However, the thief may end up merely pissed off and vengeful. If he has a lighter in his pocket, this could turn from burglary to arson, and backfire completely on the property owner.
John
A former police officer friend of mine once sent me a pic of two electrocuted copper thieves, pretty nasty way to go. These two guys were trying to steal LIVE electric lines straight off of the pole, a bad career move on their part. A minor zap to deter bone-headed thieves would save lives. I'm not a licensed electrician, but 7,000 volts sounds kinda' deadly.
Go re-watch Robocop, and keep an eye out for the "Magnavolt" car theft deterrent commercial. Best commercial on TV!
That would be this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRNVxHPJ0hM
I got to thinking though...
Two grounding rods and a sledge along with some wire.
Drive the two rods into the ground about 10 feet apart and a foot from the fence.
Connect wire from the rods to the fence.
Cut and enter as normal.
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
In South Africa (I think), they had an even more novel solution.
They simple altered the reclose time on their power lines so the copper thieves could trip them.... assume the line's been de-energised.... and hook it up to the truck to drag it down.
When it finally reclosed it took out the whole lot with kilovolts of canned Thor and taught them a valuable lesson.
Probably be litigated into the ground in the US, however.
here in nothing-happens land, we had a case a couple years ago where a copper thief decided he was going to clean out a power substation.
as in 110,000 volts on that line.
there was enough to drag into court recently to send to jail for it. but as long as ignorant meth-heads can bring in saw-cut cable and get cash, they'll continue to strip fire stations and chain up fiber-optic ducts and try to roll full spools into the trunks of compact cars.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
But seriously, all this means is the copper thieves will have to use insulated tools to cut the electrified wire first.
Electric fences can detect when they've been cut, and are often linked to alarms and other security systems (additionally most modern systems can even send you e.g. mobile phone notifications the moment they're tripped, or can be easily programmed to automatically call a security company). Actually, as this business owner has 'tried everything', he probably has existing security systems that the electric fence systems would plug into.
'It'll be a little fun to watch one of these guys get electrocuted holding my fence trying to rob me.'"
Until the the thief turns around and tries to sue you and most likely wins.
Typical domestic animal control fences carry a non-lethal charge of from 2,000 volts to 10,000 volts. It's not the voltage that kills you, it's the current.
http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/uwforage/energizer.pdf
If businesses are allowed to do this, PLEASE tell me that they will next allow vehicle owners to similarly trap their cars/trucks from being broken into by theives. I can't think of a good way to 'trap' a window, but the metal door handle? Sure, why not? And I'm sure there's dozens of potential ways to trap a vehicle to deter thieves.
Some of the ones shown on the old 'stickdeath' site come to mind.
How about one that will just break the thief's arms? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSbjgXbDUzo&feature=related
I just wonder how this will play out in the civil courts, with the fact that in CA, burglars have gotten compensation because they tripped and fell in the victim's house.
I also wonder what type of fence is mentioned. In some high security installations, they have stun fences, which are to knock back an intruder as well as sound an alarm inside to alert security, and in prisons, they have kill fences, where the COs are alerted so they can remove the remains.
Of course, there is the "plain old" electric fence that is used to keep the cows in by delivering electric shocks in pulses slow enough to prevent muscle lock and allow the zapped animal to get away from the fence.
The costs to business that illeagaly buy/fence copper? Maybe it might be an extra cost to legitimate copper recyclers but the actual ones forcing government to act is those copper recyclers that buy such stolen copper. Keeping records is no more than what is expected from pawn shops. As an additional part of the sugested record keeping, I would also demand a fingerprint of any seller. That way we could also get evidence of the thief as well as his fence.
Problem solved.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
Where I live that is one of many regulations related metal recycling. It hasn't worked. There is no way to identify a particular piece of pipe, wiring etc. and say it came from some specific location. Even where you COULD match it up, that would require forensic inspection of every piece of metal trash, then comparing each to all thefts. We're talking about vast amounts of scrap, trash, every day, not the occasional mysterious body evey few years, so the forensics to match them aren't anywhere near feasible.
As with cattle fences this would be a pulsed current, probably one or two pulses per second. They charge a capacitor to the peak voltage then dump it into a step-up transformer, reminiscent of old capacitor-discharge ignition systems for cars.
This enables the number of Joules and the shape and duration of the pulse to be controlled, reducing the chance of fatalities, and so avoiding legal problems.
As to gloves, 5KV to 7KV would be enough to break down many cheaper types of insulating gloves, so thieves may still be in for a surprise.
A neighbor girl had fun teaching my dogs to jump my fence. She was climbing back and forth into my yard all the time and goading the dogs to follow her. They of course learned. So I went to the local farm implement store and was looking at invisible fences... they were expensive... then I saw the regular farm electric fence transformer was only $15! SOLD! A roll of aluminum wire was $5 for 1/4 mile and the insulators was another $2. So for $22 and about 2hrs work I had an electric fence.
Well my neighbors were "outraged" The little girl that had been jumping the fence was now in "mortal danger" according to her mom. I told her "well maybe you should keep her off my fence then" The fact of the matter is, I got zapped by far worse fences than what I put up when I was a kid... and while it smarts, it doesn't do any real damage to you. Apparently there's a city ordinance against electric fences in town, they pointed this out to me... I pointed out that I really didn't care and I was already breaking at least a dozen others. They called the cops... cops never came. Apparently had more important things to do.
Then, about 8 months later, the best thing ever happened (well for me anyway.) The neighbors got their house broken into. I guess it wasn't great for them. But the cops showed up, investigated, and told them there were tracks in the mud leading up to MY fence... then for some odd reason the moved over to their house, jumped the fence and kicked in the back door. The husband told me about this... wanted his own electric fence now. He said "When you stop laughing can you go with me to the store?"
Long story short... electric fences rock. 2 of my neighbors have them to.
I just wonder how this will play out in the civil courts, with the fact that in CA, burglars have gotten compensation because they tripped and fell in the victim's house.
Citation?
For every grocery item you buy, fill out a form with it's UPC code, expiration date, etc. Make a copy of your ID for each. Then do a forensic examination on each piece of trash so that you can distinguish between one milk carton and another. Do that for a week, then tell us if it's acceptable to you to spend your days doing that.
BTW, if you ever need to determine if your electric fence is switched on or not, without putting your tongue across it, a portable AM radio tuned between stations and held close to the wires will enable the HV pulses to be heard.
Probably falls under reckless endangerment but if they could only leave a pile of copper coils out in the open, behind the fence of course, and connect it to a high power line...
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
How about instead of spending billions on replacing stolen goods and electric fences and insurance we instead spend millions giving away free crack, heroin and other addictive drugs? You get a card and you can go to a drug store and get free heroin. We'd save a LOT of dollars.
I'm not an expert, but is the cost of ...
1) An electrician
2) The fence wire and pole installation
3) The inverter, components, and monthly power
4) The signage I'm sure would be required by law
5) The periodic maintenance and upkeep of insulator coils
6) The outer barrier-fence that this almost certainly will need as a matter of safety and/or law (and simple maintenance--don't want windblown debris shorting things)
Actually cheaper than a guard armed with a pistol? I mean, even in California at a certain point you gain the right to say "Stop, or I'll shoot" and actually follow through...
I'm assume it'd be high voltage, low amperage fence... a horse or cattle fence doesn't take much, but in order to deter a person you actually need more than painful -- you need a "probably dangerous" quantity.
I'm not sure what the costs of a military or police style electric fence actually are monthly... But I'm seriously wondering how it compares with human labor...
I once touched an electric fence with a three foot stick. I got quite a jolt. It's current, amps, that are dangerous, but it's volts that jump through insulation, and these things have a lot of volts. If you're unsure whether gloves, say thick leather work gloves, will help, consider this - an electric fence is designed to drop a 2,000 bull. A bull covered in non-conductive hair, and under that, covered in leather. Hmm, I'm giving advice for THIEVES. Come to think of it, everything I just said is a lie. All you have to do is use your T shirt to cover the wire, so your hands don't touch it directly. It'll work, I promise.
The electric utility here uses a proprietary type of wire that no one else has access to (AFAIK it’s not “special” beyond being braided in a particular pattern) so recycling companies can identify cable that’s been pulled from streetlights and such.
How many people die from touching electric fences in farms?
Battery? What if its powered from the mains?
3V across the heart can kill you. 750 volts behind 2 milliamps is a prank sold in toy stores. (Shock pen.) 100,000 volts behind 0.1ma you wouldn't even notice. Volts aren't dangerous, amps are.
I think you don't actual have a clue and are making that up.
We are talking about huge rolls of unused wire, industrial valves that cost 30k+, statues. Sometimes 100's of yards of copper.
So when some cones tolling it with a giant spool of wire in there truck, that person gets photographed. If someone reports large bundles of wire stolen, then police can ask that person questions .
Forensics. You need to watch less CSI.
The police report a large copper valve has been stole and provide description. The get a thumb print and picture. Possible an address(which may be a lie).
Then they do investigation.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
7,000 volts is not a high voltage fence. Our farm fences are 10,000 volts. It's not the voltage that will kill you though, it is the amperage that does you in. For this reason the fences are high voltage and low amperage. It hurts. However, if you're determined you can grab ahold of the fence and hang on right through the shocks. I've done it many times when needed.
See this article:
http://sugarmtnfarm.com/2007/07/23/calibrating-pain-fence-testing/
gloves, shoes, and maybe rain gear make the fence pointless? Oh, well I suppose the contractor installing the fence benefits so I guess it's OK.
Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once
It isn't the voltage that kills you.
brandelf -t FreeBSD
just so you know, just becasue people commit one crime, doesn't mean they will commit any other crime.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I once knew a guy who read that someone reported that happen to his uncles friends neighbors wife's sister.
I have hear that story in CA for decades, no one can actually site a case.
IT is one of the lies told to the government by insurance companies who want tort reform. Also the lie about the oven falling on someone and they suing.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
But seriously, all this means is the copper thieves will have to use insulated tools to cut the electrified wire first.
Electric fences can detect when they've been cut, and are often linked to alarms and other security systems (additionally most modern systems can even send you e.g. mobile phone notifications the moment they're tripped, or can be easily programmed to automatically call a security company). Actually, as this business owner has 'tried everything', he probably has existing security systems that the electric fence systems would plug into.
Then why would the fence need high voltage? Wouldn't a lower voltage be as effective to detect cutting through? Just make the fence a bit higher (10 ft) so that the thieves need to cut through instead of jumping it.
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
However, the thief may end up merely pissed off and vengeful. If he has a lighter in his pocket, this could turn from burglary to arson, and backfire completely on the property owner.
On the bright side, the objective is achieved: not being inflammable, the copper will remain on site in case of arson.
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
To deter copper thieves, why not go straight for the payload. Put a massive, high current coil along the fence line, and induce a current in the stolen copper, either making it too hot to handle, or melting it in place. Safe for the neighborhood kids (provided they keep their bikes away).
I really hate it when people make lame attempts at pedantry.
I'll been electrocuted several times and I'm here to tell you about it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=electrocute+definition
After you convince multiple respectable sources such the Oxford Dictionary, I promise I'll follow suit.
brandelf -t FreeBSD
They get charged with mains then.
sudo mod me up
A motivated thief would simply "rent" a truck and go through...
Tomorrow is another day...
Can we stop all this amps and voltage nonsense? They are proportional to each other. Higher voltage gives higher current. The only way high voltage is safe is if the power source can't support the large current draw. Then you don't get the current because the battery dies. If you don't believe me, feel free to go grab some 110 kV power lines.
I remember numerous stories from the 90's where businesses would booby trap their business to stop thieves and I thought in every case this was illegal. One business owner I remember released a few poisonous snakes in his business and posted signs outside saying to stay out because poisonous snakes were on patrol. Eventually the thieves returned to the scene of their previous crime, broke-in, and got bit. Following American customs, they sued the business owner and won.
Not sure what the defense argument was but I'd think electrified copper would result in the same thing and the criminals would sue.
induction alone is barely enough to recharge a cell phone from a high volage main transport line... and the drop of power would probably trip the alarm. You do not deserve your geek card.
Tomorrow is another day...
Not sure what you're on about. Maybe you should look it up in oxford first.
Definition of electrocute
verb
injure or kill someone by electric shock: a man was electrocuted when he switched on the Christmas tree lights
execute (a convicted criminal) by means of the electric chair.
Origin:
late 19th century: from electro-, on the pattern of execute
aww fuck.
injure.
what idiot added that part.
Then why would the fence need high voltage?
Do I really need to answer this, or do you want to think about it for a bit? Hint, some robbers may find massive electric shocks a little off-putting.
The blame for this problem rests almost totally at the feet of Ben Bernanke. His policies have driven commodity speculation and helped keep prices high. It's one of those "unintended consequences".
If you want to stop copper theft, stop savings theft. The policy makers need to ask questions like, "Is it better in the long run to feed these people in a recession, or drive them to copper theft in a stagflation?".
Treating drug addiction as a health problem rather than a crime problem will also help. If meth were available for $0.10/pill at the drugstore, I would not run out and become an meth fiend anymore than I would start huffing gasoline. Yes, people huff gasoline, they huff the propellant from Cheeze Whiz. We don't ban those things because the inability to drive or squirt cheese is deemed worse than the potential for people to huff shit. We treat huffing in the ER, and with social workers. We could treat meth like that too, and there would be less copper theft.
Yeah, the housing market would collapse. You know what? Good! Stop foreclosures? Hell no. If you want to liberate people, you should be holding up signs that say START foreclosure. Yeah, people would hurt for a month or two getting kicked out of the big house with no equity and a $2000/mo mortgage. You know what? They'd move into an apartment with an $800/mo rent, and they might be able to save up for down payment on a house with a $1000/mo mortgage once the foreclosure was far enough behind them. That sounds more like freedom to me than... Oh, I digress...
Anyway, the problem of copper theft isn't technical. It's social and economic. Quit applying technical fixes to social problems. Please. Pretty-please?
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Having worked in the recycling industry for years, solving the "sales" side of this is easy.
A posted and implemented policy of paying by check if the payout is greater than $20 makes most of these problems go away.
This works because large volumes comes in trucks and legitimate businesses generally prefer to receive a check (prevents employee skimming).
After that, invest in a few video cameras, particularly one trained at the parking lot exit (to pick up rear license plates). Attach these to a motion-detecting video recorder and make sure you know how to burn DVDs. The few times we have had to involve law enforcement, they were pretty happy with a plate number and footage including a face and "the goods".
So far, we have never had the check cashed, but if we did, the cops would then have a tie to the criminal's financial institution and we would join their case with a counter-suit to get our money back.
Keep in mind that we really do not want to make an illegal buck, but at the same time, we also want to earn the legal bucks as efficiently as possible.
Love all the posts about using gloves etc., but the physicist in me didn't even bother with thinking about that.
Get iron rod, shove in ground on side nearest the supply box (or one either side of you to make sure), join to fence using other iron rods or similar (literally a "now throw it on from here" connection with no risk). Then cut fence. Isn't that going to be more effective, shorting the fence to ground, than leaving it live in your hands? If you're really determined, find the source of the voltage and short close to that.
Or failing that, just do what the local cable thieves do with train track and signalling copper when they steal it (if a crowbar across it isn't enough to make it safe by fusing / grounding the local supply). Attach large (non-conductive) hook from a safe distance (a plank of wood could probably always be sought that would long enough), drive off and take the fence with you. Hell, melt it down while you're at it.
Stopping a thief who is ALREADY going to the lengths of breaking into a place and stealing cable (sometimes even live cable, and not always unsuccessfully) is going to need more than a little fence-zapper, which are quite common in ordinary households in some countries to keep even small livestock contained. Especially if the pay-off is more than a day's wages in copper.
People in my country steal live railway tracks and miles of signalling cable in less than a minute and get away with it. An electric fence (which would be illegal in my country anyway) isn't going to hinder them *that* much.
Almost all security measures rely on the fact that it attracts suspicion to circumvent them and hinders people for a brief moment to prevent casual theft. In reality, short of a guy with a gun you're not going to stop someone stealing something that's worth money. And even then, if it's worth enough, they'll just bring their own guns or pay him off.
It's quite common in some parts of the world. Have a look at the tops of the walls in this Google Street View - A random street in Johannesburg.
42 hidden comments
what idiot added that part
I'm guessing that "idiot" is someone who understands we couldn't be where we are today unless we allow language to evolve over time. Probably also someone who doesn't jump head first into any bit of anal mythology which crosses their path. Someone who only hits submit after having a bit of knowledge rather than faith on the topic.
brandelf -t FreeBSD
"Amps and volts are proportional" ... "you don't get the amps". See how you realized they sometimes are NOT proportional? Ohm's law is for continous DC. Pulses are different. I'm sure you intuitively understand that the 12,000 volt spark you get when touching a metal object after walking on carpet is not a hundred times as powerful as sticking your finger in a light socket.
Amps is basically the flow rate of electrons. Dividing pressure (voltage) by resistance will give you the flow rate, but there's no flow here. It's a pulse, more like getting hit with a fast moving drop of water, not a stream going through you.
There was an area in Russia where thieves cut down a high-tension wire. They shot a steel cable over the line, shorting it out and causing the breakers to pop. They then cut out a HUGE section before it could reset. They got nearly 2 miles of cable.
The local power company replaced the cables. They finish working at the other end, and give the okay to turn on the power. Two miles downrange, see a huge flash, then they hear *BOOM!* The power goes offline again, and the repair team goes back to where the first cut was made.
They find a grass fire. After putting it out, they find that the cable had been cut again, and was in the process of being coiled up by the thief.
The thief had been standing in the middle of the coil when the power was turned on.
All they found was a pair of boots, with feet inside them. Everything else had been vaporized.
[End Of Line]
My electric fence unit is a bit old - only 6000v on a good day. Still don't want a zap from it though!
But the copper theives over here regularly cut live 230v power lines to steal the copper (not always successfully) - an electric fence isn't going to stop them.
Aside from the definition Google shows in preview, the first four results in YOUR link all say electrocute = kill. Only the one displayed in full indicates it's ever used to mean injure. So four dictionaries say it means lethal, one doesn't. It's okay to be wrong, that's how we learn.
Then why would the fence need high voltage?
Do I really need to answer this, or do you want to think about it for a bit? Hint, some robbers may find massive electric shocks a little off-putting.
While some other idiotic thiefs may find it deadly. Is it a good trade-off?
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
The point is to leave the thieving bastards' charred corpse in view to send a message to the others.
7,000V make it 70,000 and few dozen amps just be sure.
You mean gibbeting?
Seems the humanity (or a certain part of it) is morraly regressing faster than I thought (was expecting an involution to the Nazi era during my lifetime, but... well... Dark Ages seems to be approaching fast).
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
Several years ago in my town, a man killed himself trying to steal copper from a live circuit box. He fell down dead right next to his toolbox full of stolen wire and wire stealing tools. His family successfully sued the apartment complex where the circuit box was installed, the city, and the local power company. The city's response to this was an oppressive and possibly illegal new rule requiring inspections of properties every time they change occupants. This rule has lowered property values as nobody wants to move into this oppressive city any more.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
A engineer mate of mine was working in Ghana and had a 2km fibre line installed to his house from the nearby gold plant so that he could get reliable remote access.....well he thought it was going to be reliable.
Stupid local thieves trying to find copper dug down to the fibre line, cut it, and and then realised it wasn't copper. Now in a normal country, you might have a chance of pulling a bit of slack and resplicing, but not in Ghana. The thieves then continued to move down the line another ten metres or so and tried again. And again. Multiple cuts only to find that the same damn cable was still not copper. Farking Genius!
The more electric fences the better I think.
That sounds like an open and shot case to me.
Inheritance is the sincerest form of nepotism.
Wow, that's amasing!!! All we have to do is wait for someone to figure out how to send substantial amounts of power down an optical fibre!!!
Most of these copper thefts are electrical wiring, not communications. Yes you can use aluminium wire as an alternative but there are problems with that too. Least of which is that until they cut the cable they dont know, so you'll still get a lot of vandal related damage.
So were you actually injured, or did it just hurt a little?
You should see some of the really horrific injuries that electrical burns cause.
TFA needs an editor even more than Slashdot does.
Electrocute is a portmanteu of "electro" and "execute", execute in this context meaning kill.
You've been shocked several times, not electrocuted.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
A lot of the cable theft in the UK is from the rail network, because it's almost all electrified using overhead power cables. Oddly this comes with its own inbuilt (mostly) 25 kV AC protection. It doesn't stop them. They also target the signal cables, which I think use high voltage as well.
Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.
it is a right of passage for manly youth of the rural persuasion to test the fencers... once. I had the opportunity to check one back a quarter mile from Grandpa's, down on the old farm boundary of what was his land and that of Dad's friends.
yep, it's working.
hurts, but shouldn't put anybody on the ground.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
they have a nice little small town radio station in Detroit Lakes, MN with a nice little tower down near a lake, surrounded by grazing land. seems the cows kept breaking through the antenna feedline and putting them off the air.
so they've got a wowzer electric fence protecting the feedline.
probably has as much power as their dollar-a-holler station, for whenever you dial them in, you get the SNAP SNAP SNAP of their electric fence imposed on the broadcast signal.
in Devils Lake, ND, they have a similar situation. except they buried their feedline in a duct. no fencer needed.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Heck - they've been fried climbing into substations. What were they going to do - bang on a 30kv bus bar with a sledge hammer?
They're idiots - an electric fence won't stop them. I wouldn't be surprised if they just threw themselves at it looking for weaknesses.
Or you could you know try and solve the whole rampent poverty situation so people wouldn't be inclined to steal copper wire to try and make a living.
auto-targeting mini-guns would also work, but are only slightly less ridiclous.
You have a good point. I know a guy who renewed his drivers license after pounding a 12 pack down because although drinking and driving didn't bother him, not having a valid license did.