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Net Neutrality Bill Aimed At ISP Data Caps Introduced In US Senate

New submitter Likes Microsoft writes "Yesterday, Senator Ron Wyden (D-Oregon) introduced a Net Neutrality bill aimed at ISPs using data caps soley for profiteering purposes, rather than the 'traffic management' purpose they often claim. The text of the bill is available at Wyden's Senate page. It would require ISPs to be certified by the FCC before implementing data caps. It says, in part, 'The [FCC] shall evaluate a data cap proposed by an Internet service provider to determine whether the data cap functions to reasonably limit network congestion in a manner that does not unnecessarily discourage use of the Internet.' In a statement, Wyden said, 'Americans are increasingly tethered to the Internet and connecting more devices to it, but they don’t really have the tools to effectively manage data consumption across their networks. Data caps create challenges for consumers and run the risk of undermining innovation in the digital economy if they are imposed bluntly and not designed to truly manage network congestion.'"

151 comments

  1. Sen. Wyden. by MachineShedFred · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Dear Senator Wyden,

    Thank you for actually being a good Senator, that introduces good bills that create or change laws that help out the average US Citizen. I'm glad I voted for you the last time you were on the ballot, and if I still lived in Oregon I'd vote for you again.

    --
    Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    1. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Synerg1y · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If the FCC actually started to regulate the ISPs... it's too much to hope for. But then if even if the FCC starts regulating ISPs, look at what happened in the big pharma / FDA world, the FDA got bent over and ISPs have deep pockets like big pharma, so it may happen again.

    2. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eh... it's certainly a nice gesture, but I'm quite leery about this. The government has historically been bad at understanding technology (especially the modern civilian internet). The ISPs have historically been spectacular at fleecing people who don't understand technology (including local governments, re: exclusivity deals for sub-par service), and using those fleeced people to trap the people they can't outright fleece (again, exclusivity deals). Something tells me the ISPs won't have any trouble convincing the FCC that their service "needs" these caps in place, with heavy emphasis on the sarcasm quotes.

    3. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this is extremely lucky aspect of the EU right now.

      The market is roughly the same as the US (a bit bigger actually), but there's a lot of small-middle-large sized telco and ISPs (as opposed to the super-sized AT&T and friends), so the politicians have a vested interest in trying to make sure the companies operating in their own interest group will have a future. I certainly hope this will lead to even more regulations about sharing infrastructure, in addition to the current telephone line sharing one.

      In the US it's the other way around, the major telco's have massive work forces so crippling them by forcing actual competition on them would be very bad for the company and the politicians (Aka, cuts to the workforce).

      I hope for the American people that this goes through. I pay 14 eur/month for unlimited "upto" 21Mbit (It's 5-10Mbit'ish usually) 3G, and 30eur/month for 100/10Mbit FttB (Ethernet for the last bit). No caps, and I can't complain about the bandwidth much.

    4. Re:Sen. Wyden. by afidel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Considering basically every transaction carried out over the internet is an interstate transaction you couldn't be further from reality.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    5. Re:Sen. Wyden. by lee13se · · Score: 1

      Only in the strangest of cases (Texahoma) will an individual transaction cross state lines.

      The bill defines an ISP as "an Internet service provider that imposes a data cap on consumers of the provider" I believe that would include AT&T, Verizon, and the like that have data caps on mobile internet service.

    6. Re:Sen. Wyden. by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Thank you for your good intentions, but...just why is this a task for the federal government?

      Okay, I'm curious. Are you trolling or is your understanding of interstate commerce drawn directly from (and only from) poorly researched libertarian pamphlets?

    7. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Dexter+Herbivore · · Score: 2

      Dear Senator Wyden,

      Thank you for actually being a good Senator, that introduces good bills that create or change laws that help out the average US Citizen. I'm glad I voted for you the last time you were on the ballot, and if I still lived in Oregon I'd vote for you again.

      I'm too cynical, my immediate reaction is "What is he getting from this, and does it have any real chance of passing?".

    8. Re:Sen. Wyden. by smooth+wombat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Dear Bradley

      What part of communication isn't understood in Federal Communications Commission?

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    9. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Senator Wyden,

      I have never lived in Oregon, but I do work in Chicago, and will happily vote for you twice in any future election.

    10. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Mephistophocles · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'm not sure I like this actually. All this really does it put data caps in the hands of the government - doesn't mean they're going away. I'd rather not have them at all, but if they're going to happen I'd rather the providers control them than the FCC.

      --
      Deja Moo: The distinct feeling that you've heard this bull before.
    11. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I can't help but wonder if the FCC wouldn't agree that blocking or throttling certain file sharing technologies falls into "functions to reasonably limit network congestion in a manner that does not unnecessarily discourage use of the Internet".

      I'm not the sort to think a regulation free environment solves all ills, but I don't know if I'm comfortable with the FCC signing off on individual network congestion mitigation techniques, either. I also don't love the tone, which sounds a bit like, "if you're profiting too much, we'll need to step in." I don't care what the ISP's make. What I care about is developing healthy competition. I don't feel like we really have that.

    12. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There is always a loophole. They will all just switch from Unlimited plans to the Cell Phone Model. 250gb for $60 a month!

    13. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Practical Reason #1: Because nobody else is doing it. ISPs are basically like utilities in function; natural monopolies that are exquisitely well positioned to price-gouge, because the nature of their business is effectively insulated from competition, and they are completely reliant on the government to deploy infrastructure at all in the first place (Can you imagine how many property owners you need to deal with to lay cable?)

      Pedantic Legalistic Asshole (This is you) Reason #1 : Because the internet is a needed part of interstate commerce, and by screwing with it locally, you screw with your resident's ability to conduct interstate commerce.

      "Go screw yourself" Reason #1 : Because they took federal subsidies to function, you will shut up and listen, or we will yank funding, cripple you, and give it to someone else. See why highway constructors must play nice with the Federal Government or die.

    14. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Synerg1y · · Score: 2

      Agreed, healthy competition would be a much better alternative in the long run, but we're at a breaking point here, 4-5 companies in the states own the infrastructure for these services and are free to do with it as they please. And so far, they have, Comcast wanted to charge me $75 for basic internet if I didn't accept their promo plan, I'm pretty sure it doesn't cost them $10 (I'd love a real figure for this) to deliver this internet to me... 700%~ profit? Somethings gotta give.

      P.S. this is why ISPs always have "promos", they're still making tons of money at what we think is "cheap" internet

    15. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope you have the same desire for *every* piece of legislation that is proposed. (I know I do.)

    16. Re:Sen. Wyden. by runeghost · · Score: 2

      Please mod parent up.

    17. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interstate commerce.

      Why do you Libertarians have to be so fucking pants-on-head retarded?

    18. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well most likely the government would at least make sure that the damn ISPs own services (like Comcast On Demand or their services via XBox) aren't mysteriously "exempted" from the cap in a bid to get rid of Netflix, Hulu, etc. We all know that the major streaming players put their content into large distributed content management (DCM) systems that live in the same data centers as the ISPs so the bogus claims they have of "wah, increased transit (peering) costs because netflix, wah" are crap anyway. In fact, now that cable has gone all digital, they shouldn't exempt TV service either. I want to either have no cap or have a cap that is completely agnostic to whatever protocols or data is transmitted over it. My TiVo can record 4 streams at once through the m-card. If I do that, I am consuming more resources than the person recording one stream. Count it in the cap or don't cap at all. This is where government intervention makes sense. We can't rely on any "invisible hand" of the market since the companies were typically granted monopolies in many areas when they agreed to run the wires there. Since the market isn't free, it does need regulation.

    19. Re:Sen. Wyden. by LiENUS · · Score: 4, Informative

      "pants-on-head retarded" ? no it probably doesn't exist in the constitution but Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 says "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;" that's a fancy way of saying they have the authority to regulate interstate commerce. How applicable it is for 99% of the stuff they say allows it I wont argue, but the constitution does in fact give them the authority to regulate commerce among the states.

    20. Re:Sen. Wyden. by datavirtue · · Score: 0

      Oh, $75 for an unlimited internet connection that is probably clocking 10-100Mbps, I feel so sorry for you. My only decent internet option is Verizon 4G at $80 per month with a 10GB transfer limit. The last two months I have been billed $200 a month. Can't watch movies or it will cost more, can't download games from steam....the list goes on. I don't even want to talk about it.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    21. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I assume you read the bill? Unless my reading of the bill is wrong, there are a few small points you may wish to consider...
      1) IANAL, but it seems the bill makes no allowment for an ISP that does not have a data cap. It seems to codify into law that all ISPs will have a data cap, and provide monitoring of user traffic to determine usage and monitoring tools for those users.
      2) Failure to provide these tools results in fines, the abililty for users to get money from from the government for any overage charges, and any funds in the money gained by fines goes into the General Fund to ostensibly "fight the deficit" - yeah right.
      3) This bill is an example of administrative law, which in my opinion is a bad idea. They are giving carte blanche to the FCC to do as they wish. My opinion is that if it's important enough to have a law on, it's important enough for the legislators to actually create rather than "some unnamed beurocrat will decide..." type crap.
      4) The article nor the bill thus make any mention of how often re-certification would have to happen - i.e. if this law had always existed, we could be stuck with 1990 level data caps and might not be able to do anything about it.

      So THANK YOU, dear Senator Wyden for trying to mess up the internet, in a bill that, from the headline, sounds like a good idea. Afterall, headlines and perception is all that really matters.

    22. Re:Sen. Wyden. by fredprado · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When healthy competition does not exist which is more often than not the case in our world, regulation, inefficient as it may be, is the only way to combat abuses.

    23. Re:Sen. Wyden. by datavirtue · · Score: 2

      Because his family members and friends are pissed about data caps on their phones. This is one bit of lobbying I don't mind though.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    24. Re:Sen. Wyden. by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      You mean $60 a month for 5GB.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    25. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Pedantic Legalistic Asshole (This is you) Reason #1 : Because the internet is a needed part of interstate commerce, and by screwing with it locally, you screw with your resident's ability to conduct interstate commerce.

      This is bad reasoning that is unfortunately steeped in legal precedent. This is the same mindset that allowed the Federal government to restrict how much wheat a farmer could grow on his farm, because he was "exert[ing] a substantial economic effect on interstate commerce" by being self-sufficient enough that he did not need to buy wheat from out-of-state (see: Wickard v Filburn).

    26. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Synerg1y · · Score: 4, Insightful

      4G = wireless, comcast = coaxial, different level of availability and yes speed. No idea why 4g is your only option besides you maybe live more rural in which case I'd look into satellite internet (good d/l bad u/l). Also doesn't t-mobile offer unlimited 4g data? I've seriously considered telling comcast to go fuck themselves and getting t-mobile and paying the different to not deal w comcast anymore.

    27. Re:Sen. Wyden. by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The Commerce Clause does not apply.

      No? Then how can they use the commerce clause to defend the marijuana laws? How can a "commerce clause" apply to something in which there is no legal commerce?

      You states rights boosters ought to work on getting federal pot laws repealed, seeing as how pot is now legal in two states.

    28. Re:Sen. Wyden. by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Once gigabit to the home comes into play nobody really has a major advantage. Verizon has the fiber, and the other players have pathways, but there is still opportunity for a non-entrenched player.

      The key is to be able to provide gigabit in the short term and leapfrog competitive offerings at a reasonable price.

    29. Re:Sen. Wyden. by g0bshiTe · · Score: 1

      The bill also makes a distinction of "household service and devices" it does not make mention of mobile service.

      --
      I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
    30. Re:Sen. Wyden. by norminator · · Score: 1

      I'm all for net neutrality, and I think the federal government has to be involved, but I don't think that this bill can really do much about it. Based on the information in the summary, ISPs can use caps for "traffic shaping" but not for profiteering, which sounds good, but how is the government supposed to know what the caps are actually being used for? The ISPs can most likely cook the data in whichever way they need to in order to make the case for traffic shaping. In the meantime the government is still trying to put effort (and more importantly, money) into trying to monitor and enforce the ban on profiteering-based caps.

      I don't really think that caps are really something to fight against via legislation... not in the name of net neutrality anyway. I think caps are something that really have to be fought through customer demand. On the other hand, the actual issues that net neutrality is supposed to address are more about how data from certain applications, devices, or content sources gets lower priority than data from the applications, devices of content sources that are "friends" with the ISP.

    31. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      What part of communication isn't understood in Federal Communications Commission?

      Maybe the censorship part.

      Are you folks ready to give up your porn?

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    32. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how many property owners you need to deal with to lay cable?

      the government (local and state) for access to the right-of-ways and other public properties, and railroads (in order to string cable over them). THAT'S IT for placement of the main infrastructure.

      the problem isn't that.. it's that virtually all local governments in the US have awarded lucrative, exclusive contracts to telcos and cable companies to provide services within their jurisdiction.... and they along with the states and feds have not forced the issue of sharing those networks among competitors (and at a reasonable wholesale cost)

    33. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Worst. Theory. Evar.

    34. Re:Sen. Wyden. by davydagger · · Score: 1

      1. This is not net neutrality. Net neutrality is letting the corporations decide what the net is and isn't, when there is an old clear definition. Net neutrality is not discriminating against data by type or origin, and certainly disallows deep packet inspection type analysis. This is to keep the peer to peer model alive, and disallow port blocking, throttling, etc, based on content or destitnation.

      It means what the corporations have to sell to the consumers is infact "internet". We need do need standards and regulate this. It worked for a long time as the de-facto standard, but it needs regulation

      How MUCH internet they want to sell you at what price is not covered in net neutrality.

      Its not a mandate how much or little internet can be sold at what price.

      2. this really isn't going to help the average citizen. This is revenge for ISPs blocking SOPA/PIPA.

      The government gets to decide what companies get to sell what for what is terrible and will only lead to favortism and corruption. In my view the internet belongs to no one, companies can only sell you access.

      The only two standard measures I accept for internet pipes are:
      1. width of the pipe. how many bytes/second
      2. total amount of internet in bytes transferred total in a set period of time.

      Except under court order the ISP should never have a reason to monitor any data besides this, nor regulate anything beyond this. The contract needs to be plain. The customer needs to be guaranteed they get the exact minimum or more of transfer or bandwith, at all times.

    35. Re:Sen. Wyden. by davydagger · · Score: 1

      most internet communications completely ignores state lines. most of it IS interstate commerce.

    36. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dear Anonymous Coward:

      The same Section and Article which granted Congress the power to create the FCC in the first place.

    37. Re:Sen. Wyden. by Altanar · · Score: 1

      4G, if you can get it, isn't much worse than satellite. I currently have Exede. $75/month for 15 GB of data usage, 12 Mbps. Unlimited data 12-5 AM. However, satellite has a built-in latency of 700ms. Don't expect to be playing any games that require low lag. Also, that latency is definitely felt while surfing.

  2. Re:Does the FCC have this authority? by degeneratemonkey · · Score: 4, Informative

    Well, no, the FCC does not have the authority to do this. This story is about a bill that would grant the FCC such authority.

    It won't pass though, because there is a lot more money against than there is in favor.

  3. end of the world by alienzed · · Score: 1

    or simply the end of us putting up with corporate bullshit. Must feel like the end of the world for the greedy...

    --
    Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
    1. Re:end of the world by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      (Looks for suitable cover from retun fire...)

      "Well, It *is* dec. 21 today..."

      [Hits the dirt.]

    2. Re:end of the world by Dexter+Herbivore · · Score: 2

      It's already over in Australia. We've discovered here that the Mayan apocalypse was actually only referring to anyone who's still trying to do their Christmas shopping. Seriously, have you been anywhere near a shopping centre (mall) in the last few days?

    3. Re:end of the world by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      Not that I'm trying to justify any of this nonsense, but- why would the Mexico-dwelling Mayans have predicted the end of the world in Australian local time?

      Presumably we've got about another 11 hours, until midnight Mexican time, before we're "in the clear", so to speak.

  4. Re:Does the FCC have this authority? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    the FCC would have the authority IF the law gives it to them. they've run into trouble before when implementing policy or rules without a law to back it up.

  5. Re:Does the FCC have this authority? by jhoegl · · Score: 3, Informative

    The law is created in the bill. The FCC is the enforcer or "over watch" of the law.
    Much like when you contact the FCC for a spectrum use violation.

  6. Re:Does the FCC have this authority? by sconeu · · Score: 1

    Does the FCC actually have the authority to do this? Won't they be slapped down again?

    The FCC is part of the Executive. If explicitly directed to do so by Congress, it's in their purview. They got "slapped down" before, because the court said there was no law authorizing the previous effort.

    --
    General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  7. Netflix... by sandytaru · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We start approaching our monthly ISP imposed data cap of 150 GB just from watching Netflix. One room mate nearly busted us through when she started watching the new Dr. Who series, beginning from the first David Tennant episode on up.

    If I remember right, Netflix currently accounts for about one third of all total Internet data usage.

    --
    Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    1. Re:Netflix... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1, Informative

      Netflix pays for transport, so do you. The problem is the man in the middle it seems.

      If this really is a problem for you, you could lower the default stream quality on the netflix website.

      I would instead suggest you try to see if there is another provider in your area.

    2. Re:Netflix... by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 2

      ...started watching the new Dr. Who series, beginning from the first David Tennant episode on up.

      This is important stuff, worthy of a regulatory fix. I'm not being sarcastic.

    3. Re:Netflix... by Real1tyCzech · · Score: 1

      Gotta wonder why his wife skipped Christopher Eccleston. It got much darker after him (where they instated the new rule where someone had to die in every episode, it seems).

    4. Re:Netflix... by sandytaru · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Nope. ISPs are given a virtual monopoly on their method of delivery. We have AT&T DSL and that's all we can get through the phone lines. We had tried Charter cable, but their data cap is the same at 150 GB, and their QoS was ten times worse and the bill was twenty dollars more.

      We've talked about going to a business grade fiber connection at $200/month, but that's only on the table if one of us has a true telecommuting job. As it is, our offices are 15 minutes away and neither of us work enough from home to justify it.

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    5. Re:Netflix... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      In some areas that is true. I have the option of FIOS, DSL from a couple providers or TWC.

      I did intentionally limit the areas in my city I would live to select for FIOS though.

    6. Re:Netflix... by cluedweasel · · Score: 4, Informative

      My ISP has a 150Gb limit too. When we moved here it was unlimited. Then the ISP proposed a 30Gb monthly limit. After a local campaign, they acted like they were going to go bankrupt after upping it to 100Gb. Now it's 150Gb. I called them when the 100Gb limit came in and asked them how I was meant to use Netflix and the like with 100Gb. their answer was to use their own VOD system. To me, there's the heart of the matter - it's not the cost of transport, it's protecting their own revenue from online competitors. BTW, this ISP (Bend Broadband) is in Mr. Wydens district and he was receptive to complaints about their data caps.

    7. Re:Netflix... by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      We've talked about going to a business grade fiber connection at $200/month, but that's only on the table if one of us has a true telecommuting job.

      I obviously know nothing about where you live, but you could try and find a neighbor who's willing to split the cost.
      I know a few technically inclined people who live alone, but split a highspeed bill with their neighbor and everyone is happier for it.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    8. Re:Netflix... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think my ISP has a cap.

      I have had Netflix running on one or more of my computers almost constantly for over a month(sick me, sick kids...) and not a peep about it from my ISP.

      I pay $26 a month for a 20 DSL Mbps connection.

      You would have to be pretty stupid to overpay for a tiny cap.

    9. Re:Netflix... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we had real Net Neutrality regulation in place ISPs would have to treat all video packets the same, whether they come from Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, or the ISP's own video on demand service. That means caps would disappear because they would hurt viewership for the ISP's own service.

  8. Not good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This is a great idea in theory. In practice, it will give ISPs incentive to actually allow service to degrade to the point where "data cap functions to reasonably limit network congestion". This will result in an overall lower quality of service and even more profits for the cable guys. After all, who are you going to switch to?

  9. Re:Does the FCC have this authority? by StormReaver · · Score: 2, Informative

    How about congress actually pass a LAW on this, after all, they are supposed to be the legislators, eh?

    I know most people don't bother reading the stories here, but did you bother to even read the summary (which actually does a decent job of summarizing the story)?

    This is a bill. Bills become laws if they are approved by Congress.

  10. Re:Does the FCC have this authority? by DragonWriter · · Score: 5, Informative

    Does the FCC actually have the authority to do this?

    This isn't the FCC doing something, its a member of Congress proposing a law directing the FCC to do it. If they pass the law, then the FCC will, ipso facto, have authority to do it (assuming, of course, that Congress has Constitutional authority to pass the law.)

    How about congress actually pass a LAW on this, after all, they are supposed to be the legislators, eh?

    That's exactly what Senator Wyden is proposing: Congress passing a LAW that would ISPs from imposing data caps without prior approval of the specific cap meeting specific requirements from the FCC.

  11. Wary by HaZardman27 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Couldn't this serve to discourage ISPs from improving their infrastructure? If they let their infrastructure age, they'd be spending nothing on improvement, and would eventually be allowed to put data caps in place as bandwidth usage increases.

    Disclaimer: Didn't RTFA.

    --
    Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
    1. Re:Wary by Microlith · · Score: 4, Informative

      Couldn't this serve to discourage ISPs from improving their infrastructure?

      They don't need any prompting to not improve their infrastructure. Their "solution" is to impose arbitrary limits and offers slow service to stretch their profit margins by not improving their infrastructure. Competition is necessary for them to improve and they fight vigorously to deny it, suing municipalities to prevent them from offering their own lower cost, higher quality services.

    2. Re:Wary by codewarren · · Score: 1

      What is stopping them from doing that now?

    3. Re:Wary by DigiShaman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The ISP industry is an oligopoly. In some cases, monopoly depending on where you live. Good or bad, you can thank the government for limiting new players entry into this market. So the idea of 'free market' can be thrown out the window in this discussion.

      Caps are bad in that they foster regression of infrastructure. Simply put, there's massive profits in scarcity. That's econ 101.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    4. Re:Wary by arielCo · · Score: 1

      If you had, you'd know that he's against about discriminatory data caps, such as "150 GB on anything but our [partner's] streaming video services":

      “A covered internet service provider may not, for purposes of measuring data usage or otherwise, provide preferential treatment of data that is based on the source or the content of the data,” (.pdf) Wyden’s bill reads.

      It goes further to question data caps in general, but that's a pricing scheme and has nothing to do with neutrality.

      --
      This post contains no rudeness or derision of any kind. All arguments are friendly. Terms and exclusions may apply.
    5. Re:Wary by Doctor_Jest · · Score: 2

      I suspect in some markets, that might be the case. The true problem is government-sanctioned monopolies. There needs to be competition. Where I live, there are two providers of Cable service, and the requisite DSL. Only DSL has a cap, and quite frankly, it's useless compared to the two cable companies. This idea of capping usage at a certain amount is not about traffic management at all. It's about trying to squeeze money out of customers. Throttling bandwidth during peak usage is more logical, but since they're not really doing it for that reason, they cap data. The FCC could, in the absence of market forces (competition), be more stringent about not gouging customers. After all, the company got a monopoly sanctioned by the local government... they wanted that sort of control. So since they wanted to play in that arena, the government who granted the monopoly should force their own regulations on them, backed by the regulatory power of the FCC. Or the ISP can let competition in. It's their choice. Normally, I'm market focused and loathe government interference, but since the market has been fiddled with by the government already to prevent competition and true market forces, I don't mind them manipulating the monopoly ...

      --
      It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
    6. Re:Wary by VortexCortex · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Couldn't this serve to discourage ISPs from improving their infrastructure? If they let their infrastructure age, they'd be spending nothing on improvement, and would eventually be allowed to put data caps in place as bandwidth usage increases.

      They have no incentive currently. In fact, applying data caps is how they decided to make more money instead of building out infrastructure to meet demand. Look, data caps don't help congestion at all (except, perhaps, through fear of using your service?) If the services are over-subscribed then at peak times the load is more than the bandwidth they advertise -- Think rush hour traffic. Would limiting the distance you could drive per month reduce the demand for car lanes during rush hour? Ni, ni and ni... That's just silly! Instead what you'd do is limit your over all use so that you were assured driving distance when you needed it. This means that there would be less Traffic on Off Peak Times -- When there is plenty of bandwidth available! This is also why metered bandwidth is a farce, unless they charge a lot more during peak times.

      There has to be enough hardware in place to handle that peak load, the number of bits doesn't matter over a month -- It only matters during off peak times: The hardware is still there, it's just not being used. The Current doesn't matter, it's the Pressure / Voltage! The Wires have to be big enough for peak usage, not for total power used in a day, week or month, it's not like you use up the electrons and the wires have to be replaced... THINK MAN!

      You must understand, it's more profitable in the short term to over sell bandwidth than to build out infrastructure. The data caps are merely an attempt to squeeze more money out of the system. WTF does it matter if you use netflix or bittorrent all night long when there is plenty of bandwidth to go around? The problem is that there are more folks trying to use the same sized pipe during peak times -- Not that the damn routers run out of bits!

      MY PIPES! DE CAPS DO NOTHING!

    7. Re:Wary by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Ask yourself this: what is less expensive, imposing data caps on customers, or upgrading capital infrastructure? In the short term, it's data caps. Over the long term, it's upgrading infrastructure.

      See, there are people here trying to make a quick buck. Telecom infrastructure needs to be upgraded every few years, and the upgrades are not terribly expensive (we're talking about Verizon here, who can make their own chips / write their own code, easily, if other manufacturers raise costs too high; I mean, they're Bell Atlantic, they have the resources). Anyway, some business fart somewhere probably came to the conclusion, based off of the 20 minutes or so he was awake in Finance class, that they can make a lot more money by putting off upgrades a little longer, and simply increasing costs. Now, any seasoned business type who has run their own company will be groaning right now, as they are aware of all the hidden gotchas to this idea, which is why smarter types avoid it. And those gotchas? One of them is this -> what happens if your customers, fed up with your shit, begin switching to a competitor who is not 'playing ball' by putting off their upgrades to increase their profit margins? An inexperienced type will think "Oh, then I'll just start upgrading my stuff, which will prevent more from switching, and I can convince the others to come back with special deals / etc." But in reality, the first types to switch will be the heaviest users, the most technical of the bunch, and probably the angriest. Angry, with long memories, which even the market cannot understand -> revenge botches all calculations. It's something like having 100,000 full-time marketers with your most prized customers giving them their undivided attention -> I mean, when a non-tech is looking to subscribe to an ISP, who the hell do you think they trust to give them an honest answer? It's not the people on TV. It's their family or friend tech, who will tell them to stay away from your cheap ass. You know, the guy who has been giving away free tech support for years? They'll get a phone call like this -> "Hey lightknight, I am thinking of switching to {ISP with data caps}. I've seen their ads, what do you think?" And I will respond -> "Dude, I had them for 6 months, and they terminated my account because I went over the limit. That's going to be a problem for you if you like NetFlix / Hulu / YouTube / etc. You should really go with {ISP without data caps}." And they will respond -> "Lightknight, you're right. This other guy costs less, and gives us more. Thanks."

      If you are, in any way, shape, or form, a tech company, or have heavy ties to tech companies, pissing on techs is a death sentence. The "thanks for recommending us to all your friends, but we're going to have to let you go" approach has destroyed many a tech company. And telecom companies are tech companies, like it or not.

      Your customers are always going to go with the guy who offers a faster connection, for a lower price. That's all you need to know about networks. Sure, occasionally other things are added to the equation (latency, QoS, etc.), but in general, if you have a faster connection that your competitors, you already have those things.

      And I will say this about Verizon -> I do not care for their wireless services (haven't had them before, but they are very expensive), but their FIOS service? Someone should get promoted for that. Running a fiber line to the customer's house has always been the end game for networking. It's the checkmate move of the networking world. Once someone deploys fiber, it's over. And why is fiber so important? Because it's a plastic or glass tube, which transmits light, and is unaffected by EM interference. It can go miles without repeaters, and upgrade costs are only for the equipment at both ends, not the fiber itself. Once laid, unless a backhoe cuts through it, their job is done. The amortization of fiber is just beautiful from an accounting standpoint -> that little piece of plastic could go centuries before needing to be replaced. The only thing faster than light is something that hasn't even been invented yet.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    8. Re:Wary by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      I would love to hear how you would see the telecoms market play out if government regulation is removed. Keep in mind that monopolistic rent-seeking is the most profitable state for a company, and that companies a legal obligation to their shareholders to maximize profit. Keep also in mind that there are currently large multinationals playing in the telecoms market.

      Show your work, and pay attention to whether costs rise or fall and whether services rise or fall.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    9. Re:Wary by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Remember long distance charges? They were higher during peak hours. This post is spot on, thanks.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    10. Re:Wary by QuantumRiff · · Score: 1

      Simple fix is to make the money collected for going over a "fee" that can ONLY be used to improve infrastructure.. (ie, it can ONLY buy hardware, and transit)

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    11. Re:Wary by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Good or bad, you can thank the government for limiting new players entry into this market.

      Be clear about "government" here. It isn't the US government and it isn't the state government. It's your crooked local government, either city or county. Personally, I'd like to see a federal law that forces removal of these insane, crooked contracts between city and ISP.

    12. Re:Wary by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      They don't need any prompting to not improve their infrastructure. Their "solution" is to impose arbitrary limits and offers slow service to stretch their profit margins by not improving their infrastructure.

      They are trying to protect their own media services (particularly cable providers). The caps are an artificial way to make Netflix, Hulu, etc look less attractive compared to cable.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    13. Re:Wary by ewieling · · Score: 1

      The problem is not "government-sanctioned monopolies". The problem is random ISP cannot afford to dig up the streets to lay their own cables. The "last mile" is a natural monopoly. No amount of rhetoric about the government is going to change that.

      I wish I could find the picture I saw (or was it a painting?) of the rats nest of telephone lines over the streets of NYC when anyone who wanted to could string telephone cables to their customers. This was BEFORE the AT&T monopoly was created.

      --
      I really shouldn't have used someone else's email address for this account.
    14. Re:Wary by Doctor_Jest · · Score: 1

      Digging their own cables is a government problem. They gave the grants in the first place to the original companies via eminent domain and other means (usually shitty ones) to get the cables there in the first place. Now when someone else comes in and wants to do the same thing... the monopoly created by subsidized laying of infrastructure before comes to the government and greases palms to make it impossible to get the job done.

      That coupled with the government sanctioned monopoly status granted by municipalities fudges up the whole works. Why do you think AT&T fought tooth and nail to be the final arbiter of line rental for other companies? So they could price competition out of the market. It took a bunch of doin' by the government to force AT&T to let others use the lines. The same AT&T who got all their infrastructure FROM the government and taxpayers through incentives and grants and guaranteed loans. I agree the random ISP can't afford to put down their own lines... but it's not solely because of cost. It's the government in the way and the government monopolies (both DSL and cable, who also got their lines laid the same way as AT&T did) crowding out the new guy. Crony Capitalism, if you prefer.

      Not to mention when cities try municipal broadband, the entrenched players sue. Compete? They don't have to... they bite the hand that feeds them all the time.

      --
      It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
    15. Re:Wary by mathew42 · · Score: 1

      Look, data caps don't help congestion at all (except, perhaps, through fear of using your service?) If the services are over-subscribed then at peak times the load is more than the bandwidth they advertise -- Think rush hour traffic.

      This is an excellent analogy. Every ISP over subscribes the bandwidth that is allocated, based on the valid assumption that not everyone is using their service all the time. Over subscription was fine prior to P2P and video streaming.

      What happens in Australia is that many ISPs offer peak and off/peak quota with a typical 50/50 split. We also have a range of plans from 30GB to 1TB/month. After exceeding your cap, speed is slowed down to 256Kbps

      The problem is that there are more folks trying to use the same sized pipe during peak times -- Not that the damn routers run out of bits!

      It may not even be more people, it may just the same number using the pipes for longer. Do you want to pay more for the ISP to build a bigger pipe? Also the routers will need to upgraded to support more traffic

      MY PIPES! DE CAPS DO NOTHING!

      Actually caps mean that towards the end of the billing period that larger downloaders are speed capped and their behaviour is having less effect on network performance. I realise you may not like it and that ISPs in USA may be increasing profitability more than is warranted but caps are effective.

    16. Re:Wary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you are claiming that consumers, in the aggregate, will not lower their data consumption during peak hours if their data is capped? Why do you think that?

      If I know that I am going to pay money for going over my cap, I will lower my data consumption in general. Including during peak hours. It's not like driving at rush hour. People mostly have to drive at rush hour because of their job. Very few people have to use the internet at whatever the peak times are.

  12. More Regulation by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 4, Informative

    An alternative to this would be to finally break the monopoly faced by many Americans on their broadband cable services.

    I live in an area served by both FIOS and Cablevision, and neither have caps, and have played them against each other to get discounts on my service bills.

    1. Re:More Regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Seconded. I used to live near a military base. The town I was in had granted a monopoly to a cable company; the military base had refused to grant anyone a monopoly, and had two competing vendors, one of which was the same company that had the monopoly in the town. Guess who got new channels first, got better rates, and got better service? Yeah - the people on the base.

    2. Re:More Regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An alternative to this would be to finally break the monopoly faced by many Americans on their broadband cable services.

      I live in an area served by both FIOS and Cablevision, and neither have caps, and have played them against each other to get discounts on my service bills.

      But wouldn't this mean less regulation? You effectively allowed two players of a free market to compete with each other.

    3. Re:More Regulation by afidel · · Score: 1

      It doesn't do that much because you still have an oligarchy, I have four serious broadband options where I live, two cable providers, AT&T U-Verse, and a fixed wireless provider. Guess what, they all cost about the same for the same packages despite the fact that they all have about a 40% gross profit margin which is well above the norm for most industries. I don't have any caps, which is nice, but the small number of players means I still don't have a meaningful amount of competition.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    4. Re:More Regulation by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      One way to do this would be to follow Australia with their National Broadband Network: The government established a fiber network, but commercial service providers can connect to the network to provide internet service. It sounds like the service providers can use that network to provide service. I'm unclear if multiple providers can cover the same area though, which would provide the real competition.

      The Wikipedia article also states that they also made sure that "new fibre networks are required to be open access and charge similar prices; these rules are known as the "anti-cherry picking" provisions" which sounds like Network Neutrality to me.

    5. Re:More Regulation by pesho · · Score: 1

      Second this. The market of any ISP that claims that they need to implement caps to prevent congestion should immediately be opened for bidding to competitors that can build better (wink wink) infrastructure.

    6. Re:More Regulation by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      The list prices are the same. I got my discount by calling Cablevision and complaining their price was too high compared to the FIOS intro price. Wack. $50 off and free movie channels for a year. That year is still in progress. It will be interesting to see what happens when it expires. I will be perfectly happy to switch if need be. It's worth it for that kind of money.

      Cablevision customers who live in a non-competitive area get nowhere near as good a deal if they complain.

  13. Dear Investment Opportunity Wyden by ohnocitizen · · Score: 3, Funny

    Let's cut to the chase. In the modern political arena our money faces no obstacles whatsoever. It is up to you whether that money supports you in your next run for office or pours into your precious state decimating not only your own campaign but every other congress critter down-ticket along party lines. Not that we enjoy threatening our investment opportunities, far from it. Its just business.

    Hugs and Kisses,

    ISPs

  14. Re:Does the FCC have this authority? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  15. Let's all move by Amorymeltzer · · Score: 1

    This guy is seriously the number one reason I have and will ever have for wanting to move to Oregon. I am tired of writing letters to my representatives and senators telling them to be more like him, and tired of writing him letters thanking him for fighting for MY rights even though I can't vote for him.

    --
    I live in constant fear of the Coming of the Red Spiders.
  16. Re:IF this passes? A partial "remedy" exists... ap by Dexter+Herbivore · · Score: 2

    Did /. just get spammed by an ad from someone who's anti-ad? Oh, the irony...

  17. Paved with good intentions, but... by jettoblack · · Score: 4, Interesting

    While this law sounds reasonable on the surface and seems well enough intentioned, looking at the past history of government regulations, I can't help but assume that even if this were to pass, the law will be twisted and manipulated to the point that it actually hurts the end users or stifles competition. Perhaps the requirements for compliance with the law will be so onerous that small ISPs cannot compete, leaving only the big players and a high barrier to entry, or it will prevent new innovative business models and force us to stick with the status quo even if a better alternative is found.

    For example, the regulations for bidding for government contracts were intended to level the playing field, reduce corruption, and lower costs. But as the regulations became more and more complicated (trying to plug the loopholes), only the biggest contractors with government bidding officers and on-staff lawyers can actually get through all the red tape. The result is that small players cannot compete and costs go up. The regulations ended up doing exactly the opposite of what was intended.

    1. Re:Paved with good intentions, but... by terpri · · Score: 1

      There are *no* requirements for compliance for ISPs that don't impose data caps. What specific provisions in the bill do you think will lead to "loopholes" and "red tape"?

    2. Re:Paved with good intentions, but... by Hatta · · Score: 2

      For similar reasons, we should deregulate assault, theft, and fraud. Because government regulation always leaves the little guy at a disadvantage.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:Paved with good intentions, but... by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Are you suggesting that there is no market for data caps?

      Suppose I want to start an ISP with a "draconian" 5GB cap, but I only charge $5/month for that 5GB. This would be perfect for a fairly significant portion of the market that doesnt need or want to stream video.

      But you dickholes just made it illegal....

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
  18. Monopolies, AOK? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    When did monopolies official become not only OK, but pretty much government enforced.

    Back in the day the government was used to prevent monopolies and ensure that reasonable alternatives existed who did not all work together to fix prices. Now all the government seems interested in doing is ensuring that monopolies exist and survive, and placing ineffective restrictions on them.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:Monopolies, AOK? by preaction · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The government exists to regulate monopolies that must exist, like power, gas, water, waste disposal, police, fire, and transportation, and break those that must not, like telephone, computer hardware, and computer software.

      Those monopolies I listed must exist because of the barrier to entry and the potential consequences of a monopoly. Electricity and gas being necessary to survive winter, or even summer for some folks, a company cannot be allowed to hold someone's life for ransom. Water is a necessity of life, which is why it's provided by the city government (who holds a monopoly on it). On the other hand, there are things a monopoly can do better than competition, like take a loss on serving certain customers because the loss is made up by less costly customers, or make a large capital investment because they can take a credit risk and be assured that customers have no other choice (in a more competitive market, risk is heightened).

      Of course, what I've just said is a good argument for government-owned fiber to the home (except for the "necessary for life" thing, which is only a matter of time).

    2. Re:Monopolies, AOK? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You really don't understand what hte FCC does outside of making sure your MP3 player doesn't cause problems for someone's pacemaker. Do you?

    3. Re:Monopolies, AOK? by celle · · Score: 1

      "Of course, what I've just said is a good argument for government-owned fiber to the home (except for the "necessary for life" thing, which is only a matter of time)."

          Actually, it is necessary for life. What do you think 911 calls go through now? Carriers use public networks for life support services like for most others. /rant
      The shit should have been nationalized years ago and the isps should have seen breakup and prison time after the rip-offs in the nineties and maybe a few death penalties for the current stealing. Treat them with the same amount of mercy they treated us. /rant

              I know, how about taking away the common carrier and monopoly status that they enjoy and take back the last mile that the public actually paid for. Then the cities don't have to build out infrastructure and just have to do maintenance.

    4. Re:Monopolies, AOK? by tepples · · Score: 1

      When did monopolies official become not only OK, but pretty much government enforced.

      Since utilities had to cross non-subscribers' land to reach subscribers.

    5. Re:Monopolies, AOK? by TheSync · · Score: 1

      When did monopolies official become not only OK, but pretty much government enforced.

      AT&T president Theodore Vail wrote in 1907 that the telephone by the nature of its technology would operate most efficiently as a monopoly providing universal service, and that government regulation, "provided it is independent, intelligent, considerate, thorough and just," was an appropriate and acceptable substitute for the competitive marketplace.

      The United States government accepted this principle, initially in a 1913 agreement known as the Kingsbury Commitment. As part of this agreement, AT&T agreed to connect non-competing independent telephone companies to its network and divest its controlling interest in Western Union telegraph. The 1921 Willis Graham Act effectively established telephone companies as natural monopolies, citing that "there is nothing to be gained by local competition in the telephone industry." This repealed the Kingsbury Commitment, allowing AT&T to merge with or acquire competing telephone companies if the ICC approved.

  19. Re:Does the FCC have this authority? by larry+bagina · · Score: 2

    You forgot the third option: slapped down because the law giving them authorization was unconstitutional.

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  20. I've heard by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    I've heard talk, from a few different Execs at a few different ISPs in private meetings that the new thing they are getting ready to test is data caps that only count up during prime time. Kind of like how cellphones has "unlimited nights and weekends" but it would be more the opposite... you'd get unlimited from 12am to 4pm or so... Then have strict caps during prime time.

    Not so great for Netflix users... but those are the real problem for the ISPs. File sharing users could schedule their downloads outside of those hours and free up a lot of bandwidth, and they'd not be losing file sharing customers to other, un-regulated, but slower services.

  21. Re:Does the FCC have this authority? by DigiShaman · · Score: 0

    Which is a good law. Of all proposals, I really like the framework of this one. Caps are not out of the question if they're substantial infrastructure reasons to justify them. But the idea of using caps to shake more money out of people's pocket is absurd. In a free market, we would never have to worry about this kinda of racket going on. But I think we've all established that the ISP industry is anything but a 'free market' for all sorts of reasons.

    My only concern is that the FCC might go too far in making an ISP lose too much profit in that the infrastructure doesn't get upgraded anyways. Or, industry players start dropping out much like doctors leaving healthcare. Once you start making deals with the Devil (Government), there are always repercussions. Always!

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
  22. Nothing wrong with metered service per se by davidwr · · Score: 1

    The problem isn't the "cap," it's the excessive charge for overages or incremental units.

    $30 for "up to" a fixed amount of data use plus many times that $much for double-the-fixed-amount usage is ridiculous.

    If the $30 buys me 150GB (typical land-line) or 3GB (wireless), twice that amount (everything else being equal) should be no more than $60. It should actually be less because the "fixed costs" of providing service should be in that first $30.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Nothing wrong with metered service per se by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      Actually, there IS a bigger problem -- they can't (or won't) even tell us the precise algorithm they use to COUNT the number of bytes.

      Go ahead, AT&T. Prove me wrong. Tell me how many bytes I'm getting billed for as of this second, allow me to send a single-byte UDP datagram to some arbitrary IP address, then tell me how many bytes my new usage reports.

      I can almost guarantee that it's not going to increase by a single byte. It's not even going to increase by 9 bytes (8-byte UDP header + 1-byte payload).

      (what follows is a hypothetical conversation with an AT&T employee who has electrodes attached to his genitals that zap him automatically whenever he's caught lying).

      (Zap!) What? I'm getting charged for retries? Try again. UDP doesn't do retries.
      (Zap!) You're counting my single-byte datagram as ~1,500 bytes because that's the size of an ATM MTU? Then why the fuck did you lie and say the cap was "3 gigabytes", instead of "2 million ATM packets of 1,500 byte max length"? Except I know you're still lying, because I did another experiment and sent 10 widely-spaced single-byte UDP datagrams. Even if you counted them as 10 ATM packets, I shouldn't have gotten charged for more than 10 x 1500 bytes (10.5 kilobytes).
      (ZAP! ZAP! ZAP!) You listed my use as "12 megabytes". WTF? You round up to the nearest megabyte? Every hour? Then re-round everything up to the nearest whole multiple of 10 megabytes every day? So if I send even a single-byte ping at some point during the day, you're going to count it as 10mb of use?

      (grabs remote, angrily presses the button over and over until his dick is charred and he's about to pass out from pain)

      The point is, if you look at the info that leaks out about how carriers bill for data use, it's blatantly obvious that they're inflating usage on a scale that would get bank officials sent to prison for fraud if a credit card company tried to calculate interest charges the same way. Actually, the way they DO calculate interest isn't far from that, but at least they're required by law to meticulously disclose their precise formula for calculating it. They'd NEVER be allowed to get away with saying shit like, "the way we calculate interest charges is too technical and hard for average consumers to understand, so we just calculate the charges & that's what they are."

      Now, admittedly, I wouldn't get so hot and bothered about AT&T's counting methodology IF overage gigabytes either carried over indefinitely, or were prorated at the end of the month... but they aren't. The nanosecond AT&T decides I've used 3,000,000,001 bytes of data, I get hit for another $10, even if there are only 17 seconds left until the month ends. Frankly, I don't mind being charged $10/gig. I do, however, mind getting charged $10 for 32 megabytes of data. Carriers now are allowed to play us both ways... pretending they have no idea how much data we've actually used, and endlessly mumbling about how use is "just an estimate", yet billing us with surgical precision for a huge additional chunk of data use the NANOSECOND they think we've gone over the cap by even a single byte.

      All I ask is for honest accounting, and additional use charges that are either prorated or carry over. If carriers tried to say, "You get N minutes of voice airtime, and if you use N+1 minutes, but less than 2N minutes, you'll get billed an additional $100 for excessive voice calls during the month" back when voice minutes actually mattered, they would have been metaphorically hanged from a tree on Capitol Hill. Because, as the GP pointed out, most carriers charge MORE per gigabyte for use beyond the limit than they charge for the bytes under the limit.

    2. Re:Nothing wrong with metered service per se by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This.

  23. Take great care, Ron by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    I recommend Senator Wyden should stay off small planes, lest he suffer the same kind of 'accident' as Senator Paul Wellstone (D).

  24. Seems sensible on its face by Slyfox696 · · Score: 1

    Just from the broad strokes painted in the summary, this seems like a good idea and a good piece of legislation for Americans. Seems to even include the sorely lacking bit of common sense, which is so often absent in legislation these days.

    Given the amount of common sense and overall good it would do, my guess is this bill will never pass.

  25. good bill, level playing field by swschrad · · Score: 1

    this would put an end to bait-and-switch service contracts, such as "unlimited service" which cuts you off after 4 gigs a month, and insure you compare apples to apples when you buy data services. however, I would like to see spelled out as a national benchmark a solid disclosure of when caps are placed. "to protect network" does not mean a damn thing. "we will cap the top 1/2 percent of users and/or anybody who is utilizing over X gigabits of data per day" tells you what you need to know. nobody does that at present.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  26. Wireless Carriers by ebinrock · · Score: 2

    I wonder if this would apply to the wireless (cell phone) carriers as well. I mean, recently I watched one hour of a movie on my smartphone (and yes, I watched it using my data plan because the nearest free wi-fi wasn't capable of handling the kind of bandwidth required for streaming video -- that's something that's got to change, too), and that one time of viewing ate up close to 1 GB of my 4 GB plan. Sure, in this case it was entertainment, and I could have used more discretion, but what if it was an instructional video I had to see in the field for my job, and there was no [fast, reliable] wi-fi around? What's the point of moving forward in technology with the ability to stream video to mobile devices if the data plans are all severely limited in that respect? What, so people are always expected to wait until they're in a spot with [again, fast and reliable] wi-fi, which is usually indoors, to be able to see any kind of video on their mobile devices? What a crock! The wireless carriers need to get it together and get back to unlimited data plans with a ton more bandwidth. We pay a hell of a lot of money for these plans (and are often locked into them for two years); the least they can do is upgrade their networks to fit the times -- not only with fancy bell-and-whistle features like 4G LTE (and I do appreciate the faster speeds, mind you!), but also more BANDWIDTH so they don't have to impose these ridiculously low data caps for tons of $$$. We Americans pay some of the highest rates for cellular service in the civilized world.

  27. Cap and Compete by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    How about: ISPs are freely allowed to impose data caps, but if they do, all their monopolistic franchise agreements are null and void.

    1. Re:Cap and Compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      How about: ISPs are freely allowed to impose data caps, but everything sent over the connection has to be in those caps.

    2. Re:Cap and Compete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about data caps are illegal, period. ISPs must maintain a minimum of 115% of data bandwidth of what they have subscribers for.
      50,000 subscribers at 20Mbit requires 1.15 Tb of bandwidth availability... better get cracking on those upgrades...

    3. Re:Cap and Compete by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Yep, just make data caps illegal. And 1.15Tb of bandwidth is not too big of a deal actually to get, it's only ~11 uplinks which should be what they already have (geographically distributed) if they were proper internet structures. But you can definitely oversell your subscription. 1:100 is do-able, 1:1000 is even do-able. The problem is that data caps do not NEED to exist. You don't buy wholesale internet-pipes by the Gigabyte (don't let anyone fool you into thinking they do). Internet-pipes (to the backbones and commercial-grade Internet) is sold by the Mbps (in most cases Gbps these days) however many GB you want to pump over them, nobody cares as it doesn't cost any more or less to send or receive a MB over the electronics (they have to be in place regardless).

      Data caps are there only and ONLY to protect the parent company's interests. They own the media corporations that rely on advertising (Time Warner owns HBO, CW, Cartoon Network, CNN) and they can't have their own businesses being undercut by the Internet. They want to stop you from viewing things on the Internet, they want to stop you from playing video games (that's why the media always blames video games whenever there is a mass murder even though there is no statistical correlation) and they want you to go back to watching TV with commercials.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  28. Oh, one more problem... by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Many if not most ISPs have too-cozy relationships with "non-Internet" data providers such as voice-telephone, text, and video-services (i.e. cable tv, satellite).

    This cozy relationship is an obvious conflict of interest in favor of discouraging people from using the Internet as a substitute for other services. If a cable company charges a "metered" rate of, say, $30 for 150GB, then the "TV" data should count towards that 150GB as well. Since people won't tolerate a sudden increase in their combined TV+Internet bill, this will necessarily mean either a drastic cutting of the "TV" part of the bill or a lowering of the "per GB" cost on the "Internet" side.

    Let's say the cable company chooses the 1st route, and your "Internet" bill is $30 per 150 but the average household's Internet bill is $50 due to how much TV they watch, but their "TV" bill drops from $50 to $30, leaving the total bill the same. The customer is also a subscriber to NetFlix or a similar service. For every hour they are watching NetFlix, they are probably giving up an hour of Cable TV. Their "Internet + CableTV + NetFlix" bill remains pretty stable.

    With today's setup, those ISPs who no longer "all you can eat" plans put customers in the awkward position of getting all the Cable-TV they want for no "per GB" cost, but having to pay per GB for NetFlix.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  29. Re:Does the FCC have this authority? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    as long as the bribes are taxable.

    jr

  30. "Good or bad" by davidwr · · Score: 1

    One very good reason why land-based telecommunications is a monopoly is that laying new wires is disruptive to other infrastructure.

    About the only way to have a competitive land-based Internet is to "split the baby" and have a local regulated monopoly own and manage "the last mile(s)" and have independent companies provide "Internet service" at a co-location or point-of-presence site.

    In other words, do to Internet services what a federal judge did to Ma Bell in the early 1980s.

    By the way, in some parts of the United States about 10-15 years ago, DSL services were "split" in this way. You got "bare DSL" from your local regulated telephone company and you got "Internet" services from one of many companies that had "co-located" equipment at your local telephone switching office. For reasons that would likely make conspiracy theorists proud, many areas that used to operate this way no longer do so.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  31. Data caps suck but so does legislation by WaffleMonster · · Score: 2

    If your going to legislate anything how about opening up the last mile cable monopolies to competition as was done with the telephone network for DSL?

    You will never solve anything if your answer to side effects of lack of effective competition is legislation. Most of our pricing and service issues can can be traced back to effects of prior decade of nonstop consolidation in the ISP market to the point where in too many areas there is no other ISP to choose from.

    I have a feeling if you pass such legislation the ISP will just drop your speed for the rest of the month to work around the inconvience... see your not capped..wink wink..... good luck with that netflix video.

    With few exceptions caps in USA have some analogy to electricity usage and rush hour in that peak usage is all that matters. While you could argue pricing structures more closely matching the cost of production are better..another argument could be made that caps are easier for the user to understand, minimizes cost of any metering infustructure and puts least mental constraints on natural tendancies of users.

    There is also the idea that any legislation benefits large ISPs who have staff, power and money to get their way disadvantaging the smaller ones we ought to be doing everything possible to promote to increase competition and systematically reign in fat, lazy, selfish tendancies that accompany being a monopoly.

  32. Regulators, mount up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is clear and makes sense, is a necessary anti-predatory regulation, and exactly the kind of thing that the FCC was created for. Unfortunately, because of those things, it doesn't have a shot in hell in the House right now...

  33. Kinda torn on this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the ISPs would just act rationally, we wouldn't be in this mess. As much as I'd like to be able to move an unlimited number of bytes for a fixed price, nothing else in life works that way. The more electricity I use, the more I pay and the electric company is not going to cut me off for using more than some arbitrary amount of electricity. I just give them more money. Same with water and gas. The cable company is the only one that's ever threatened to disconnect me and refuse to provide future service if I use too much of their product and provides no way for me to pay more money to move more data.

    Fortunately, they've temporarily lifted the cap. For now.

    1. Re:Kinda torn on this by Githaron · · Score: 1

      While I understand what you are saying I would like to point out that internet bandwidth cannot be directly compared to standard utilities like electricity, water, and gas. With standard utilities, you are paying for a combination of a product and its delivery through piped infrastructure. While the pipes mights determine the maximum load per time for delivery, demand for the product determines how much product is pushed through the pipes. If demand is down, a utility company and decrease product generation. While the pipes might be under utilized during time of low demand, the product can be stored and be delivered later rather than be lost.

      With the internet, all the cost is in the infrastructure. There is no product. If a wire can handle 10 Gb/s and only 1Gb/s is going through it, 9 Gb/s are lost. The potential data flow that could have traveled during that time is lost. It cannot be saved for later. If later there is a 19 Gb/s demand, only 10Gb/s can flow through the wires. If there was really a network congestion problem, it would make more sense to charge based on the time the data is pulled or to cap usage during peak hours. That way, users would be encouraged to offload any non-time sensitive usage to non-peak hours. That way, the line could stay consistently full and everyone can have acceptable performance.

      That said, I think it is more of a ISP greed problem than a network congestion problem. From my understanding, most major ISPs make pretty hefty profit margins due to the fact that most areas only have one ISP available. Since ISPs obviously don't have a lack of funds and most likely have the means to lay down more wire quickly enough to satisfy demand, if there is network congestion, it is most likely because ISPs don't want to spend money on infrastructure. Don't get me wrong. They are entitled to charge enough to make money but if they are making huge margins due to a monopoly while providing sub-standard service, something is wrong.

  34. Way To Go Sen Wyden! by detain · · Score: 2

    This has been needed since netflix type video services started getting popular. You cant use internet video streaming without hitting a bandwidth cap pretty fast unless your ok with gameboy resolution in your stream. Movies simply dont look that good unless you view them at full resolution, and netflix at HD resolution is up to 2GB/hour. Leaving your internet tv streaming during the day will eat up most any bandwidth cap.

    --
    http://interserver.net/
  35. feasibility by DriveDog · · Score: 1

    Fine idea, but I'd think unlikely to pass, given the relationship between Comcast, Verizon, etc. and Congress.

    I propose that the FTC do their job and regulate advertising. ISPs must state what caps they might impose, in very simple terms, along with EVERY advertisement—that is, any mention, of their service. Then trust us well-informed citizens to make decisions, make noise, whatever. Oh yeah, and there's going to have to be some reasonable competition to decide among. Oops.

  36. What does this have to do with net neutrality? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While the big ISPs are crooked enough that they'll almost certainly abuse data caps to keep profits rising while their networks languish, rather than funding infrastructure and increasing the caps to keep pace with technology, that's entirely separate from the double or triple-billing scams which they propose which net neutrality is needed to prevent.

  37. You don't know Oregon politics. by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

    If you had any idea how Oregon politics works, you would know that being replaced isn't going to happen. Senator Wyden won't face a primary challenger who is also a Democrat, because the Democratic Party is still pretty happy with his voting record. In a general election against a Republican, Wyden will only have to carry 4 or 5 counties in order to win re-election, and he'll carry them by ~77% of the vote because Portland and Eugene are wildly liberal, and unless a major political shift happens, they won't vote Republican for anything.

    This is Wyden's seat until he retires, pisses off the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, or decides to officially move to New York. This is both good and bad - he's politically secure to "do the right thing" or "do whatever pays the most." So far, he's done the right thing.

    --
    Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  38. All four major carriers are interstate by tepples · · Score: 2

    A mobile network operator with coverage in multiple states engages in "commerce [...] among the several States", which the Constitution grants the Congress power to regulate.

  39. 6079 Smith W! Stop playing that movie! by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

    If they're going to happen then I'd much rather have the FCC determine what "data caps" should be, than have the ISPs doing it. The decision to use data caps or not and how high they can be are two important societal decisions best not exposed to massive conflicts of interest for no reason. The FCC can easily do it, and at least the government is in theory supposed to be acting in our best interests when it makes these decisions, not transparently out for themselves and only having to put on a show for suckers. A Mad-Max-style freedom for corporations to serve their privatized 1984 telescreen services up to individuals is all that this "big government" kvetching amounts to.

    1. Re:6079 Smith W! Stop playing that movie! by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Not only that but have a standard method of measuring said usage.

      Comcast and aT&T both have caps but only count data that isn't theirs.

      So comcast digital phone isn't included in the cap but if you use Vonage it is.Comcast Xinifty TV also isn't included in the cap.

      AT&T charge for TCP header information but only when it isn't there header information.

      basically all i want is someone to lay out what one gigabyte of usage is.

      Or at regulate it so the caps makes sense. As bandwidth isn't really dependant on usage. We bill electricity per kilowatt hour not Kilowatt. If you download 10 gigs in one hour you get throttled for the next 4 hours. But after those 4 hours your back to full speed. So you can download 9 more gigs at the full speed.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
  40. I've said it before, and I'll say it again by Crypto+Gnome · · Score: 1

    This is retarded, it's based on a complete lack of understanding of the practicalities of running an ISP.

    While I'm sure some service providers are royally screwing their customers, this approach WILL NOT BE PRACTICAL.

    I'm not sure about excess usage charges in the US of A, but here in Down Undah Land 2x or 3x is fairly typical. The idea being that if you often go into excess you *really* should be buying a larger amount of included usage.

    BY FAR the BIGGEST issue in the US of A is NOT data-caps (and the pricing thereof) but rather the lack of competition, many people HAVE NO CHOICE of provider, and it is THIS which then leads to customer-getting-screwed.

    --
    Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
  41. Worried about data caps? This helps... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't "haul down" as much, & certainly (adbanners) what you don't REALLY need, via this tool I created:

    ---

    APK Hosts File Engine 5.0++ 32-bit & 64-bit:

    http://start64.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5851:apk-hosts-file-engine-64bit-version&catid=26:64bit-security-software&Itemid=74

    ---

    Not only does it block out those adbanners which suck up your bandwidth YOU PAY FOR MONTHLY OUT OF YOUR OWN POCKET, but it saves you CPU cycles, RAM, & other forms of I/O adbanners 'suck up'!

    Adbanners which also HAVE been infested many times with malicious code over the years now lately, so, it also protects you vs. KNOWN malicious sites/servers/hosts-domains that host malwares &/or malicious script code

    I also produced CONSIDERABLE numbers of evidences of that here before in this post -> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2368832&cid=37021700

    Which some trolls (advertiser, malware-maker, or webmaster) downmodded my last post like this one, here:

    http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3332993&cid=42361917

    (Albeit - With NO valid computing-technical critique behind it, today - just "hit & run" downmods... "Gee, wonder why?" (lol, NOT! They can't disprove my points & they KNOW it...)).

    It's also NOT owned by advertisers like GHOSTERY &/or ADBLOCK are!

    NOW... talk about "foxes guarding the henhouse"... you'd have to be a real "cluck" to use those, now, @ least (imo, because of that fact)!

    See list in my 'p.s.' below too!

    (As it enumerates what this program's data outputs (a custom hosts file) can do that's good, for you, the end-user of them).

    It has a 32-bit model, + a 64-bit one in the distro itself, & is 100% free, & can be installed anywhere!

    (I'd go as far as saying it's a "portable" app, since it has no configuration storage necessary really, but I am not sure if it meets ALL the requirements for that!)

    ---

    QUESTION:

    What I would like to know, & perhaps you /.'ers can answer it for me with some documented proofs, is:

    What percentage of websites in general IS adbanner related material vs. the pages they are loaded on, in general/on average, & from a fairly reliable study from a reputable site...

    Thanks in advance for an answer!

    APK

    P.S.=> So... What's it do for ME, or anyone else that uses custom hosts files?

    ---

    1.) Blocking out malware/malscripted sites.
    2.) Blocking out Known sites-servers/hosts-domains that are known to serve up malware.
    3.) Blocking out Bogus DNS servers malware makers use.
    4.) Blocking out Botnet C&C servers.
    5.) Blocking out Bogus adbanners that are full of malicious script content.
    6.) Blocking out known spammers &/or phishers.
    7.) Blocking out TRACKERS.
    8.) Getting you back speed/bandwidth you paid for by blocking out adbanners + hardcoding in your favorite sites (faster than remote DNS server resolution).
    9.) Added reliability (vs. downed or misdirect/poisoned DNS servers).
    10.) Added "anonymity" (to an extent, vs. DNS request logs).
    11.) The ability to bypass DNSBL's (DNS block lists you may not agree with).
    12.) More screen "real estate" (since no more adbanners appear onscreen eating up CPU, Memory, & other forms of I/O too - bonus!).
    13.) Truly UNIVERSAL PROTECTION (since any OS, even on smartphones, usually has a BSD drived IP stack).
    14.) Faster & MORE EFFICIENT operation vs. browser plugins (which "layer on" ontop of Ring 3/RPL 3/usermode browser

  42. Where is Doregon? by Cederic · · Score: 1

    No, seriously. WHO THE FUCK CARES whether the senator represents party 1, party 2 or party ..oh, wait, American voters can't count to three.

    Is the proposed legislation good, or bad.

    If it's good, support it.
    If it's bad, seek to prevent it.
    Either way, look to improve it and find appropriate compromises between the inevitable multiple views.

    Stop worrying about whether the senator wears the same colour socks as you.

  43. Re:Does the FCC have this authority? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There was a lot more money against President Obama too.

  44. good point by hurfy · · Score: 1

    "Angry, with long memories, which even the market cannot understand -> revenge botches all calculations"

    hehe, i stuck with my old SLOW 3rd party DSL for over 12 YEARS .. and.. resisted ordering cable TV. All because they sold me 'lightning fast' internet service that was slower than dial-up at 6pm. Neglected to tell me that 'lightning fast' (1.5M at the time vs 640k DSL max) only applied between 2-6 AM :/ I had the 1998 CAP dsl line (and same modem!) up until 2 years ago or so!

    Least it was easy to get out of with it that ad phrase. 28K may be 'upto' 1500K but they put up a billboard 1/2 block away for 'lightning fast' internet... they didn't seem willing to find out if that was false advertisment.

    Only went to cable internet when the inevitable happened, albeit years after i expected. My Dsl stopping working and the 2 companies just pointed their finger at the other. 4th day down with no ETA or why it's broken I ordered cable...what did they expect me to do. Fixed on the 5th day of course, but, neither company told me it ws fixed, nor why it broke or who to blame. Sorry, your both gone then i guess.

    Still considering cable TV....

    Predict that for marketing ...sending me hundreds of advertisements and promos wasn't going to do anything ;P

  45. Re:Does the FCC have this authority? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think he even read the headline. Particularly amusing given his sig.

  46. Faster speeds require data caps by mathew42 · · Score: 1

    The tragedy of the commons is the depletion of a shared resource by individuals, which dates back to grazing cows on common land causing degradation. It applies equally well to the internet where backhaul is shared.

    People need to consider if data caps or faster speeds are more important to them. If ISPs are not permitted to impose data caps then they have very little incentive to upgrade the network speed. Currently an average ADSL2+ connection is around 10Mbps and cable is 100Mbps. That means in an non-congested network 10 times more data could be downloaded. With fibre that increases to 1Gbps and 324TB/month. It is doubtful that customers are prepared to pay sufficiently increased prices to deliver an adequate return on investment to the ISP.

    Data caps provide a way for ISPs to invest in upgrading speeds and deliver those speeds to everyone while recouping the costs from those who make the most use of the network by downloading more. In the same way it is possible for a person to ration their usage of water or electricity, the time of data usage can be selected by the end user, but I'm not aware of ISPs that offer instant speed changes. This leads to the situation where a person cannot video conference with family once a month because they cannot justify the higher speeds just for 30 minutes. This is much more socially unjust than someone having to wait until next month to download a file. Some ISPs with quotas also permit customers to buy extra quota during a month.

    For me personally, I would much prefer 1Gbps with 100GB quota, than 12Mbps with no quota.

  47. Simple way to distinguish caps for profit by buss_error · · Score: 1

    Here is a simple and effective way for deciding if a data cap and extra charges are for profit, or for network congestion:

    Enforce a cutoff upon reaching a limit. Let the customer decide if they want to continue to get internet at a higher price, or if, upon reaching their cap, if they choose to be prevented from further Internet action, and wait for it to reset at the end of the billing period.

    Had a sibling get a bill for internet access via their iPad for $4,000 in one month. I'm sorry, there simply isn't a legitimate way for a iPad to consume $4,000 of internet bandwidth over wireless in 90 days, much less than 30 days in any universe where Internet access is provided at a free market rate.

    --
    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
  48. Cap speed when over quota. by mathew42 · · Score: 1

    The way it works with other countries is that data speeds are capped. For example in Australia after exceeding your quota, speeds are typically capped to between 64Kbps to 256Kbps. Some ISPs also offer the ability to purchase data blocks if you exceed your quota to restore full speed. There are a couple of ISPs who offer 500MB quotas and then charge 10c/MB. Way to easy to rack up huge bills.

    The slow speed enable people to send/receive emails and browse facebook but not consume video or use P2P that effectively. A bit like cutting the flow of water so you could pour a glass of water, but not fill the swimming pool in any reasonable period of time.

  49. Wickard v. Filburn by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

    The Commerce Clause hasn't been limited to transactions that cross state lines for a long time.

  50. This is nothing new by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Back when voice actually mattered, many companies charged by the "fraction of a minute."

    10 calls of 61-seconds each would cost the same as 20 calls of 59 seconds each.

    I wouldn't at all be surprised if some carriers started billing the minute the phone started ringing at the other end. That's similar to your "overhead" cost.

    Wait, did I say "back when they mattered?" Some cell phone plans still charge by the minute.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  51. LMAO - oh yes, a "std. troll trick"... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another computing technically unjustifiable downmod of my post I just replied to &, days later of course!

    Just like my original post was downmodded -> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3332993&cid=42361917

    Why? Well, I use FACTS & undeniable technical evidences to back me up... & my work as well!

    (After all - I don't see ANY counterpoints that disprove points I wrote in my original post or the one I replied to now, merely proving my points)

    Thanks trolls - For proving what I wrote is TRULY, unassailable (via VALID counter facts/points... lol!)

    * :)

    Yes - Predictable, hence why I watched this post for it, & like clockwork? "Same old, same old" troll-tricks, nothing more - See above...

    APK

    P.S.=> LMAO - Yes, folks: It's ALL THE TROLLS KNOW HOW TO DO, to *try* to "hide truths &/or facts" that they cannot disprove, every single time...

    ... apk

  52. Shill much? by gottabeme · · Score: 1

    I think you're wrong in several ways.

    1. Analogy to water or electricity is flawed. Water and electricity are limited resources--but data is neverending. The only limit here is bandwidth--the size of the pipes--while water and electricity have both bandwidth and resource limits. ISPs love it when people compare to water or electricity, because it supports their non-competitive, greedy practices.

    2. "People need to consider if data caps or faster speeds are more important to them." This is a false dichotomy. Past a certain point, more speed is irrelevant, but when you hit the data cap, your speed drops to zero (or your bill goes up in a way that is biased unfairly toward the ISP).

    3. "With fibre that increases to 1Gbps and 324TB/month." You're arguing from the presupposition that users will max out their connection 24/7. That is silly.

    4. "Data caps provide a way for ISPs to invest in upgrading speeds and deliver those speeds to everyone while recouping the costs from those who make the most use of the network by downloading more." No, that is what they want you to think (or are you one of them?). Data caps unfairly punish customers who use their connection. A customer who uses 10% of his data cap pays x, but a customer who uses 101% of his data cap pays 1.2x. The 90% of unused bandwidth more than makes up for the extra 1% used by the other customer. On top of that, the extra 32% of bandwidth paid for by the customer, who used 101% and was forced to buy an entire 33% more, goes unused and doesn't roll over to the next month--the customer pays for data he doesn't even use (or even get to use, depending on how late in the cycle the overage occurred). Bottom line: it's all gravy for the ISP. Customers who barely use it cost them very little, and customers who barely exceed the cap pay for service they end up not using. When there's little to no competition in a market, the ISP can set the caps and overages to whatever they want, and the customer has two choices: awful service at awful rates, or no service at all. For me, after 4 years, AT&T decreased my service by instituting caps and overages, and increased the monthly fees. I have no feasible alternative.

    5. "This leads to the situation where a person cannot video conference with family once a month because they cannot justify the higher speeds just for 30 minutes. This is much more socially unjust than someone having to wait until next month to download a file." What a farce! Socially unjust?! Your contrived scenario is internally flawed, as well: what if the file the "someone" has to wait a month(!) to download is media from a family member overseas? a recorded video, photos...? Who made you judge of what is more justly important to random people?

    6. "Some ISPs with quotas also permit customers to buy extra quota during a month." Yeah, my ISP (AT&T) is kind enough to "permit" me to buy an extra 50 GB of data automatically by charging me an extra 33% whether I use 100 MB or 50 GB of that extra 50 GB. But, of course, if I subscribe to their (more expensive) uVerse package and use them for TV (which I don't even want), I get an extra 100 GB of data cap while paying less for the Internet access--but much more overall. How generous of them!

    7. "For me personally, I would much prefer 1Gbps with 100GB quota, than 12Mbps with no quota." That's a terrible example. What can you NOT do with a 12 Mbps download rate? You can watch any online streaming video you want, do any video conferencing, download any files quickly enough... But having a 1 Gbps connection will not make a 3 Mbps Netflix stream look any better, and it won't make your Skype calls any better, but having a 100 GB cap most definitely will bite you over and over again if you actually do any of the things you mentioned.

    In conclusion, you're deluded or lying, a fool or a shill.

    --
    "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    1. Re:Shill much? by mathew42 · · Score: 1

      > 1. Analogy to water or electricity is flawed. Water and electricity are limited resources--but data is neverending. The only limit here is bandwidth

      Bandwidth requires two components: pipe size and routers to move the data. Moving more data is expensive.

      > 2. Past a certain point, more speed is irrelevant, but when you hit the data cap, your speed drops to zero (or your bill goes up in a way that is biased unfairly toward the ISP).

      In Australia speed is capped at between 128Kbps - 512Kbps - still reasonable for browsing the web & checking email.

      > 3. "With fibre that increases to 1Gbps and 324TB/month." You're arguing from the presupposition that users will max out their connection 24/7. That is silly.

      > 4. A customer who uses 10% of his data cap pays x, but a customer who uses 101% of his data cap pays 1.2x. The 90% of unused bandwidth more than makes up for the extra 1% used by the other customer

      The ISP still has to buy sufficient backhaul to support your 101% utilisation. In countries where caps exist (e.g Australia) the ISPs model on people using significantly less than their broadband cap. NBNCo provided a couple of example usages:
      * 12/1Mbps 50GB plan with an assumed average download of 18GB
      * 50/20Mbps 500GB plan with an assumed average download of 75GB. Remember these are averages so for someone downloading 500GB there have to be ~6 people downloading 5GB to arrive at an average of 75GB, except that it doesn't work like that because the RSP most likely has a 100GB quota plan and most of the people only downloading 5GB a month would choose that. Change the 5GB to 50GB and then it becomes 17.

      Essentially what you are asking is that I suffer slow speeds to subsidise your heavy downloading with speed caps. As a technically literate person you would understand that the cost to lay fibre is exactly the same regardless of the speed and that speed caps are software setting. Supporting more data requires investment in larger backhaul and faster routers.

      It is trivial to setup a computer to saturate a 1Gbps link. Sadly it requires only a couple of script kiddies to do it and performance of the ISP goes down the tube or their costs sky rocket.

      > 5. Your contrived scenario is internally flawed, as well: what if the file the "someone" has to wait a month(!) to download is media from a family member overseas? a recorded video, photos...? Who made you judge of what is more justly important to random people?

      By imposing speed caps you are forever denying the opportunity to experience a truly fast internet, where as with download quotas people can choose what content is more important, therefore I consider my point about it being socially unjust valid.

      > 6 Yeah, my ISP (AT&T)...

      So your ISP sucks. In Australia we can choose between multiple ISPs much to the disgust of Telstra. As you've probably guessed by now, I'm also making these comments in the context of Australia where the government is the the process of re-nationalising our telecommunications infrastructure.

      > 7. "For me personally, I would much prefer 1Gbps with 100GB quota, than 12Mbps with no quota." That's a terrible example. What can you NOT do with a 12 Mbps download rate?

      High definition video conferencing is one example. The througput recommended by NBNCo is 100/100Mbps. If you only use your connection sparingly for such services then 100GB is fine. I'm regularly under 100Mbps.

      You might also be interested to know that the anti-fibre brigade in Australia use exactly your argument to stop the roll out of fibre.

      > In conclusion, you're deluded or lying, a fool or a shill.

      Or you have a fundamental lack of understanding, especially of the situation outside of the USA. I'll leave to others to decide.