Slashdot Mirror
Amazon Patents the Milkman
theodp writes "Got Milk? Got Milk Delivery Patent? Perhaps unfamiliar with the concept of the Milkman, the USPTO has granted Amazon.com a patent for the Recurring Delivery of Products , an idea five Amazon inventors came up with to let customers schedule product deliveries to their doorsteps or mailboxes on a recurring basis, without needing to submit a new order every time. 'For instance,' the filing explains, 'a customer may request delivery of one bunch of bananas every week and two gallons of milk every two weeks.'"
Jeff Bozos is a chiselling little crook.
What about ice delivery?
You kids with refrigerators stay off my lawn!
Have gnu, will travel.
The USPTO has no signs of life...
Karma: Bad
Newspapers, magazines, book-of-the-month, all these are products that are delivered at regularly scheduled intervals. But these are old media, so it makes sense that Amazon doesn't know about them.
The first time they try to defend this patent, it will be thrown out of court. Seems like a waste of time & money.
Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
United States Patent and Trademark Office.
As I understand, they patented their subscribe and save feature which has been around for years. How nobody else implemented this almost justifies that amazon should get the patent... almost, it's a stupid patent.
"... an idea five Amazon inventors came up with ..."
It took five of them to come up with this brilliance??? Amazon must have some stellar intellects...
Karma: Bad
Bravo to them to think of patenting such nonsense. Who woulda thunk??? The USPTO must be a bunch of monkeys behind the keyboard...
Karma: Bad
This is crazy why do companies even get patents like this anyways? I use to think that people who say we should do away with patents were a little crazy, but maybe it wouldn't be as bad as I thought if it were to happen? I don't know hard to say, but stuff like this is ridiculous. Something seriously needs to be done already.
Finally!!! Maybe I can get Amazon to sue ProActive and get those annoying refils to stop!!!
Karma: Bad
...I use it so that I get a new pack of socks every 6 months...
Nothing better than coming home from work to a fresh package of socks!
ERMAGHERD SCHOCKS!
up 12 days, 22:30, 2 users, load averages: 993.20, 994.21, 994.56
*makes note to limit user processes...
So if you happen to be passing through Waterbury, Conn., and see a solid gold milk truck driving itself through the streets, you'll know it's Jeff Bezos.
How many amazon inventors does it take to screw in a light bulb? No one knows, but it takes 5 to figure out how to automatically send you a new one every 6 months.
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde
Did someone at Amazon tell their boss that you can patent the most bullshit things, and they're just seeing what the biggest BS patent they can get is?
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
...you're doing it "using a computer"!!
That makes it new, right? /sarcasm
"I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
Columbia House did this years ago. I know many people get their oil or propane delivered regularly. TFS points out the milkman. Newspapers have been delivered for a long time.
This is a business process, not an invention from what I can tell.
Yet another patent which is a "system and methodology for doing something we've been doing for decades, but with a computer".
Epic fail to the USPTO.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
maybe even webvan
in the NYC area we have had a bunch of food delivery startup over the last 15 years
in the dot bomb era we had webvan. you order food online and they deliver. they bombed.
peapod is owned by a few B&M food stores and delivers
Fresh Direct is the new all online food store in the NYC area. they even partner with nice buildings here in NYC to offer special holding rooms for food and to have the doorman sign for it. they have had subscription food delivery for a long time.
Fresh Direct is a little more expensive than B&M stores, but for busy people its a huge timesaver
Daily newspaper delivery began in the 16th century London, England.
Prior art. Oh yeah.
As I understand, they patented their subscribe and save feature which has been around for years.
Note that this patent has been around for years. It was "Filed: November 2, 2009". Yet another example how patents which might be reasonable when applied to mechanical objects are completely stupid when applied to computer software. Even if this patent might have taught someone something when it was first filed (which looks extremely dubious; I suspect IBM mainframe automatically delivered supplies from the 1960s will be prior art), four years is a lifetime in internet computing. There is no way this could ever be a useful idea on it's date of publication.
=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
Doesen't peepad have patents on stuff like this?
Even from a electronic store, Thinkgeek was doing this years ago with their Bawls.
That's giving them too much credit. If that were the case, with enough of them something of value would transpire.
Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
I patented the patent process and I'm going to sue the next person that submits a patent!
Bab72 (Not my real name)
Are Amazon deliberately trying to discredit the USPTO, or even the entire patent system?
This patent fails on so many criteria: prior art, lack of novelty, obvious. If it's granted, it's a crock.
...laura
How nobody else implemented this almost justifies that amazon should get the patent...
Newspapers implemented it a few centuries ago. If you subscribe to a newspaper, it is delivered to your door, and you get a discount off the newsstand price. You can also vary the schedule. For instance you can get it delivered everyday, or just on Sunday.
Assuming they have keyboards. If the latest string of asinine patents are a hint, I'm willing to bet, they're two guys called Bill and Ted (but 80 years old) and instead of having an awesome phone booth adventure, they get to go on a ladder ride among dusty shelves full of patents.
If computers were people, I'd be a misanthrope.
Is this a real filing or is Amazon (or it's engineers) trolling the USPTO to see if there are any signs of life?
A software patent for something acting like the milkman that actually references milk deliveries? Something smells fishy.
What's the idea behind this kind of "patents"?? Some profit for some lawyers?? Can I patent "a displacement method using two organic carbon based devices, using one of them at a time" ??? Or "an organic device which captures air into a closed system and expels CO2" ?? So nature spent 4000 million years evolving for this??? what a waste....
Has first to file started yet?
If Amazon is the first to file on this does it matter how many people have done it before or even if they didn't invent it. It's all about who gets first post at the USPTO now isn't it?
Please help me understand. The broken patent system never made sense to me and the things Congress does to 'fix' it, like first to file, make even less sense.
...his ACTUAL goal is to have software patents abolished entirely - while simultaneously protecting his company from others who patent things out of greed and avarice.
This explains why he continually patents the most ridiculously obvious things - it's an effort to eventually (so he hopes) get the non-technical world to realize how absolutely f***ing stupid the software patent system is. Sadly, he appears to think that his efforts need to be even more obvious; ergo, the latest patent.
I'm telling you - GENIUS...
BTW - On a serious note, I'd be embarrassed as an engineer to have my name as 'inventor' on a patent so blatantly f***ing stupid.
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You can't call art milk delivery, after all
That's what "defensive publication" is for. Any invention that one publishes can't later be patented by someone else.
I'm going to patent piping natural gas to homes. It's crazy but it just might work.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
A patent on regular deliveries boinking all the stay at home wives in the neighborhood.
The United States will switch to a first-to-file system [...] So it doesn't matter if milkman have been using this invention for 50+ years.
How not? First-to-file affects only "priority", or conflicts between one patent application and another patent application. As I've explained before (as have others), it doesn't affect "novelty", or aspects of a patent application anticipated by prior art. Think of publication as a "filing" that ensures that no one gets the patent.
First-to-file only applies when two or more people apply for the same patent within the application period. Prior art is still relevant. The rest of the world with less-broken patent offices have always been first-to-file.
Newspapers and Magazines...
Seriously, USPTO... what the hell?
Sorry, Amazon, but I have pre-existing artwork on this. CSA's and standing wholesale orders for our farm products are delivered to customers on a re-occuring basis.
Since I'm a generous and reasonable farmer I'll settle out of court with Amazon for a mere Billion dollars for their attempt to infringe on my business model.
I'm not arguing that it's a defensible patent, but it's also not patenting what the summary or TFA claims. Here's the #1 core claim of the patent:
In other words, it's a particular implementation of a subscription system that has to include every element in the above list in order to infringe. It would be easy to work around this in implementing a subscription system. It's also not generally how milkmen used to operate. It's also PROBABLY covered by prior art, but whenever I hear "X just patented Y that's stupid LOLOL!" I have to go to the claims, and I usually see that, no, only a particular implementation/method for accomplishing Y is covered.
E pluribus unum
This one is on a computer.
This gives me an idea of some perverse strangeness, I need to create a patent for the automated regular delivery of items that will then schedule automated regular delivery of other items. Damn now I can't as I have publicly disclosed my patent idea.
Time to offend someone
And what happens to my toner guy? Will he have to pay Amazon to bring me toner?
Learn to love Alaska
I want all of those things. It's like a utopia where you never have to go grocery shopping ever again. Do they deliver to basements?
We were used to plentiful of uninformed /. 'news' over the last decade on patents and stuff; when 'filing' and 'granted' was considered the same, effectively, and lots of nonsense, like the contents of the abstract being considered as the underlying idea, or even as the legally binded grant, and much more.
In a nutshell, I expected the same, yet again, and was almost reluctant to even go into the details and actually read the document.
OMG!
It is a patent
It does grant what the summary said
Incredible.!!
There is a comment from AC further up ("Bad summary of patent") stating correctly that it does contain a last minute change as necessity for potential infringement. True. But I can't believe that there is no anticipating document before 2009, where a recurring delivery system of any sorts had a 'last check' of possible modifications by the customer before the actual delivery.
Much too often, I had to come to the defense of my former colleagues in patent examination. In this case, however, I need to agree when someone questioned if there are signs of life left in the office.
Actually, I doubt it.
I meant technology wise more or less. It makes sense when you take into context the website you're posting on. I'm not aware of any other website that lets me subscribe for say water filters to be delivered every 3-4 months to me.
Numbers. Look at how useless this patent is. Do you think it's the only one? Amazon must file a ridiculous number of worthless junk patents like this - they've probably got lawyers who's only job is to review internal documents looking for patentable ideas. Every now and again they get lucky, and the patent will land before an examiner in an unusually lenient mood.
How long did this patent take to process? I had a local food delivery service doing exactly what this patent describes 12 years ago... and they weren't the first one in my area to do it (first one was around 16 years ago I think).
Add to that that Amazon doesn't even sell produce in my area, and what I get is...
higher prices to cover patent licensing with no discernible gain to anyone (these other companies that came up with the same solution as Amazon are NOT competing with them in the local market -- and it can be proven that they arrived at the solution independently just by using the wayback machine).
Pasta on the computer might damage your hardware. Make sure it doesn't cover or obstruct any vents.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Are they trying to bring about the end of patents with this kind of stupidity?
Ever hear of a magazine subscription?
As far as I can tell, my milkman's online account management does all that.
Sounds like a few of the organic delivery services I've used in Canada.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Let's not forget the familiar "Culligan man!!" call. I remember that from the 70s-80s.
There are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.
Coming soon to Washington State and Colorado!
I think the USPTO has been partaking of these organics for years.
Have gnu, will travel.
How about any of these services:
Dollar Rubber Club
Craft Coffee
Birch Box
Hall & Madden
Or visit the link below for a list of on line subscriptions:
Subscription Services
they deliver fuel oil to your home
they adjust the delivery schedule based on your needs which they calculate by looking at your past usage
they show up on schedule with appropriate service labor and parts to keep your furnace maintained correctly
they show up with diagnostic equipment and they can tailor their services to suit your needs
oil companies have been doing this for decades
there is nothing novel here at all
Everyone, repeat after me: "Business methods should not be patentable"
That means:
- No one-click ordering patents
- No more patents on online auctions
The courts cannot fix this. It is up to congress.
As I understand, they patented their subscribe and save feature which has been around for years. How nobody else implemented this almost justifies that amazon should get the patent... almost, it's a stupid patent.
When you look at the actual patent you see there was plenty of prior art cited. If Amazon cited these you can bet they believe (as does the USPTO) that the Amazon patent is significantly different, and does not infringe.
You have to READ the patent to see what part of this is new.
For instance Amazon states in the Patent
Some online merchant systems may provide customers the ability to place standing orders for delivery of consumable products on a recurring basis, such as every week or every month. However, these systems may be limited in their flexibility for allowing modifications of the recurring orders or for allowing the addition of one-time or specialty products to an order. Further, the customer may not be able to schedule the recurring orders for the same time and day of each week or month, thereby making it difficult for the customer to arrange to be present at the delivery of perishable goods or other consumables.
This patent is different, in that it allows Scheduling not only the day of a re-occurring delivery, but also the time. This is pretty significant. You get to choose the time slot from available time slots, when the truck will be in your neighborhood on the days you request, at the hour you request. And you do this by some form of drag and drop of products to your door step, selecting from the available time slots (presumably when the truck will be there). Pretty specific if you ask me.
Further, you can easily change it by adding or subtracting items (one time, or every scheduled time) to be on that truck, put it on vacation hold, etc.
(If Amazon can actually pull that off in any grand scale, I'd be surprised, but that's not the patent office's problem.)
Further virtually every claim in the patent is proceeded by the words: A computer-implemented method.
Dammit! I hope there is an App for this!!
This, the computer scheduling done by the customer, combined with picking the actual delivery time slot from the available time slots, is the bit that they are patenting. Not the milkman, not the newspaper boy, not your local grocery weekly delivery.
The closest prior art is the cited Amway patent. But it merely suggests to the customer that they might want to order some more Amway for future delivery, and says nothing about the details of precision or picking of exact days and time slots.
I'll leave it to the lawyers (and wanna-be lawyers) among you to pick out the details where this patent differs from the others, but do try to contain your rage till you at least Read the Patent, and ignore the hype in the summary. Its really pretty clever, and relies on Amazon knowing the precise location of the delivery vehicles on their routes in the future, and using that information, allowing the customers to make sure a half dozen bananas are on that truck, and will arrive at their door step when they are home to receive them.
Ambitious, and fairly novel if you ask me.
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I'm patenting signalling a city garbage truck that I have garbage to be picked up, by displaying my icon like garbage can at the curb side. The garbage truck thus informed of my need, stops and picks up my garbage from my signalling icon like garbage can. Then I will sue every city in the US for infringement. If Amazon can do it, so can I.
I think the inventory planning system for a large manufacturer I worked for, does the same. However, it may never have been published. I'm also pretty sure they never thought to patent it, since this is too stupid to patent and those guys had brains.
Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
To drill down further: let's talk about websites that are significant in size and thus significant to the internet:
http://www.internetretailer.com/top500/list/
I'm also intrigued: will those sites have to change their subscription saving ways? What if it was just a subscription and you didn't save shit, does that fall under the patent?
....was things like home newspaper delivery not seen as an effing obvious previous implementation of this?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Exactly.
Its pretty amazing when you read all the claims, and imagine dragging and dropping a dozen eggs onto the manifest of a truck that will just happen to be near your house at 7pm every second Wednesday. And then being able to put that delivery on vacation hold, or add a one time order of 12 pork chops for the big barbecue you are planning next Saturday. And the delivery will take place within the time period you specify so the neighbors dog doesn't run off with your chops while you are at work.
Amazon has to know where the trucks will be at future points in time.
Provide you with a way to put products on that truck, set them to be periodic or one time, Adjust your orders, add, subtract, reduce, or hold.
All from your computer, and (hopefully) from your smartphone.
Its way more ambitious than the Milkman, and I'm not aware of anything that comes close.
People have to stop the knee-jerk reaction to headlines.
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Regular basis?
At precise times of day, on specific days of the month/week? Can you put them on vacation hold? Can you easily add, subtract, or substitute? Is there an APP for that?
Not even close.
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Well, that is my understanding of the patent law. Hope it is wrong.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
They're naming the process after the original concept that demonstrates it's not an an original or novel concept and they still got the fucking patent approved? What does it take to get a patent request rejected these days?
There is no memory shortage. yes I have heard of XFCE. Go away.
Just like the "slider lock" smart-phone case; any emulation of an existing non-patented physical process should not by default get a patent. A specific implementation of an emulation, okay that may be patentable, but not the mere act of emulation.
Thus one cannot patent emulating baseball itself because the act of baseball is not patentable (the game has been around a while). However, a specific algorithm for emulating the game is perhaps legitimately deserving of a patent, or at least a copyright. But that should not cover ALL baseball emulation attempts by competitors; only those that use the same algorithm. (Likely there are many ways to emulate baseball, to varying degrees.)
Table-ized A.I.
As I understand, they patented their subscribe and save feature which has been around for years.
Note that this patent has been around for years. It was "Filed: November 2, 2009". Yet another example how patents which might be reasonable when applied to mechanical objects are completely stupid when applied to computer software. Even if this patent might have taught someone something when it was first filed (which looks extremely dubious; I suspect IBM mainframe automatically delivered supplies from the 1960s will be prior art), four years is a lifetime in internet computing. There is no way this could ever be a useful idea on it's date of publication.
No. Not even close.
Good, you followed the link to read the date it was filed.
Bad, you stopped reading right there.
This is way more ambitious than simple order systems.
Go back and read it again.
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I said it before and I'll say it again. Taking something that exists and making it digital (or on the internet or on your phone or any "just-add-technology" change) doesn't make it new. Prior art should still apply...I refer you to my comment on Tuesday
Obvious, Novel, and Prior Art aren't just digital
Am I the only one excited that I can now get fresh Tuscan Whole Milk delivered to my house every other day.
Just another idiot with mod points.
...green mold module.
Table-ized A.I.
If nothing new is being invented, and novelty and true genius is gone: then we can, indeed, abolish the patent system.
"but money is the God of Algiers & Mahomet their prophet." - Rich. O'Bryen June 8th 1786
The only difference between that patent speak monstrosity and scheduled delivery services as old as humans is "by the computer system". Replace it with "by a person and an abacus" and you can find prior art that's ten thousand years old. The fact that the actual lawsuits you could win using the patent will only impact a narrow combination of claims doesn't dull the chilling effect on society of having patents in an area. And Amazon starts with the presumption of patent malice due to the equally ridiculous 1-click patent. This one does nothing to sway that bias.
Well I got around this stinkin' patent by using trebuchets for delivery (and lots of bubble wrap). Just you try to sue the middle ages, Ama boy!
Table-ized A.I.
To drill down further: let's talk about websites that are significant in size and thus significant to the internet:
http://www.internetretailer.com/top500/list/
I'm also intrigued: will those sites have to change their subscription saving ways? What if it was just a subscription and you didn't save shit, does that fall under the patent?
You have to save shit if you are going to allow your customer to order a dozen bananas every other week on the truck that will just happen to be in their neighborhood at 6PM on Friday.
And when they add two pounds of Nuts for delivery 5 days before Christmas on the truck that will be near their house there at 3:30, all they have to do is drag the nuts to the delivery schedule for their neighborhood, mark it one time, instead of re-occuring.
Look, this is way more precise than "send me a newspaper every day".
You get to pick the day.
You get to pick the time of day slot.
You get to specify the re-occurrence frequency and day of the week.
You get to easily add/subtract from your scheduled deliveries, all on line or from your phone.
You get to see a list of exactly what time slots are available, (when the trucks will be near you), and select the one you want.
You get to put it on hold when you go out of town.
They aren't patenting the fact that its saved in a computer. They are patenting an entire delivery scheduling methodology for customer order management of groceries (etc) that will re-occur on a predictable and fairly precise time period of the customer's choosing. Not something that shows up in the mail sometime in the future.
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For the last several years, I've been getting Cafe Gevalia delivered by mail. I set this up by going to their website, setting up an account and creating a recurring order. Ever since, I've gotten my coffee mailed to me without my having to do anything. Wouldn't that be an example of prior art, or if not, why not?
Good, inexpensive web hosting
What do you mean? This is a staple means of operating for coffee, tea, wine, etc. type businesses from even before the DotCom bubble. "Send to my business 2lbs of Sumatra blend every two weeks. Bill my credit card."
Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once
Depending on your definition of "deliver", I think cron may be in violation of this patent.
For every post, there is an equal and opposite re-post.
You idiot kids think you invented having a brain...this was exactly how just-in time ordering was already done on a computer by the auto industry in the 80's. Electronic data interchange (EDI) with exactly this sort of capability wasn't a new concept even then. "Please deliver me X widget assemblies and Y doodads every 9 days until I use EDI to tell you otherwise". Yup, remember first doing that myself in 1991.
If anything in here is novel, it's going to be automatically generating an "order" in advance, then automatically updating the "order" if necessary when the list of items is changed between when the order is created and when it's shipped.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
I used to get kitty litter delivered every six weeks from a website selling it. They had a "subscribe" page on the site where you marked the time interval between deliveries, which product you wanted, and your credit card number.
This was 4 or 5 years ago. How is this different?
Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
There's this thing called delivery logistics, and Amazon is at best hundreds of years late to be inventing it now.
But is it Tuscan Milk?
And, again, that is not what this patent is about.
You obviously STILL haven't read it.
Go find me another example where a customer can drag and drop two pounds of hamburger and some Cheetos and dip, to a truck that will be at his doorstep every friday after 5pm but before 5:30, and have that repeat that till football season is over, and do this all from his smartphone, and make changes to that order right up till midnight the day before.
The fricking army wishes they had that kind of logistics.
Trivialize it all you want, but nobody has a system in place to do this that Joe Sixpack can run from his couch.
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There is nothing wrong with our system of patents...nothing at all.
Yeah, Slashdot has a tendency to oversimplify patents to their core idea, which always sound ridiculous. A variation on the Strawman fallacy.
Here's the problem with the implementation in this patent: it's bloody obvious. I mean, how else would you design "a computer-implemented method for providing recurring delivery of products?"
performing instructions under the control of a computer system
Well, duh. Let's use a computer.
a designation of a delivery slot and a recurring delivery list comprising one or more list items, each of the one or more list items identifying a product, a quantity to deliver, and a frequency of delivery
Ok, keep a list of what to deliver, where, and when.
periodically generating, by the computer system, an order having a date and time for delivery based on a next occurrence of the delivery slot, the order being generated in advance of the date and time for delivery such that the order has a period of time of pendency prior to the delivery; creating, by the computer system, one or more order items for the order based on a last delivery date and the frequency of delivery of each list item in the recurring delivery list;
From that list, have the computer create an order in advance of delivery.
receiving at the computer system a change made to a first list item of the recurring delivery list during the period of time of pendency of the order; in response to receiving the change, determining, by the computer system, whether the order includes an order item corresponding to the first list item; in response to determining that the order includes an order item corresponding to the first list item, modifying, by the computer system, the order item corresponding to the first list item based on the change made to the first list item of the recurring delivery list;
If I'm interpreting this right, this seems to be a question of what happens if a change is made between making the order form from that last step and delivery time. In this case, the computer makes the appropriate change. How novel.
and providing, by the computer system, the order to an order fulfillment system capable of causing the one or more order items to be delivered substantially on the date and time for delivery.
And then the computer sends the order to be fulfilled.
It seems to me that all the subsequent claims focus on that part where something changes before an order is fulfilled (change in quantity or frequency is claim 2, a hold on delivery is claim 3).
Now, don't get me wrong here. Managing all the complexities of automated deliveries can be quite complicated. Each of the claims seems to focus on one of those complexities, and shows the basic way the system integrates that feature. But, the solutions Amazon patented are the basic way anybody would go about solving this without computers.
"Someone wants more bananas, and I've already written out the order form! Oh, no! Whatever shall I do? Hmmm ... let's look through the orders ... yep, there it is ... let me write down the new quantity. Phew! What would have done without this patent!?!"
BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of raw text in the patent exceeds the code for the logic it implements. About 15,000 words in text, or maybe a few thousand lines of code. I hate reading patents.
This is one instance where the incompetence of the reviewers is so blatant that they should no longer be working for the USPTO. There is a point that people need to be held accountable for their decisions. The USPTO has become too much of a rubber stamp under the idea that the courts will sort out any issues. The system breaks down under that model as many people do not have the money to go to court. The USPTO is hardly a speed bump in the patent process any more.
First off, yes, I read the patent.
Amazon is, of course, doing something on the scale that nobody else has attempted. They'll probably be very good at it, and good for them.
However, that has nothing to do with the patent. The processes described by the patent are the exact same thing that people have been doing in real life on smaller scales for hundreds (or maybe even thousands), of years.
There is nothing ... NOTHING ... in that patent that enables them to do this on a large scale, except for the automation that a computer provides (which, unfortunately, seems to make anything patentable these days). If you disagree, please call out something specific, like an actual claim in the patent, and a description of why it's something new and not just the first and most obvious solution their engineers came up with.
Congratulations to Amazon if they pull off this scale of delivery. But what they're doing should in no way be patentable, at least not as described in the patent that was awarded.
I'm going to apply for a patent for the process of applying for patents for processes. I don't have to worry about prior art, obviously.
Still, it's hardly rocket science, is it? It's more flexible & sophisticated than telling the milkman to bring you a pint every other day, but it's not a qualitatively different thing like a jet compared to a piston engine.
I'd be surprised of most ERP systems don't have something like this.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
You have to remember too that Amazon is probably more concerned by getting hit by a patent troll than they are on cornering the market.
love is just extroverted narcissism
Business to business scenarios have worked like that for twenty years. The classic example (they don't teach it on the DeVry MBA, apparently) is the auto industry's kanban, as pioneered by the Japanese.
From personal experience in the packaging industry, breweries schedule the arrival of empty cans at the filling plant in excruciating detail; they can be off the truck, filled and ready to go to the supermarket in the time it takes the driver to take a piss.
This is at most a few incremental improvements (which don't pass the obviousness test) and a bit of lipstick.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
There is nothing ... NOTHING ... in that patent that enables them to do this on a large scale, except for the automation that a computer provides (which, unfortunately, seems to make anything patentable these days). If you disagree, please call out something specific, like an actual claim in the patent, and a description of why it's something new and not just the first and most obvious solution their engineers came up with.
Well the whole aspect of the customer being able to pick groceries (etc) from a list, and drop them into a time-certain delivery slot is pretty novel if you ask me.
In no other system I am aware of does the customer have a pre-published list of when delivery slot exists at their particular residence. Everybody else says we will get there when we get there. Most don't offer the frequency of delivery that Amazon is already doing in their target areas. (Mostly Seattle for now).
Schwan's comes closest I think. But their selection is abysmal and their 14 day cycle is not how people buy groceries. (Step outside their schedule and price goes way up).
Amazon has to make their truck schedules Address Specific, and presented to to the users as a series of time-slots that Amazon can come close to guaranteeing. That's pretty novel.
Amazon has to handle your regularly scheduled grocery deliveries (arguably not that unusual, although still not common), and marry that to the Address Specific time slots. (Its the combination of these two elements that is pretty unique).
As for the order management being totally computerized, and customer manageable on line; Obviously that's not unique either.
Scheduling repeat deliveries, lots of places handle that as well, although, again, not with any precision.
I believe it is the addition of fairly precise scheduling of both re-occurring orders, (all fully user adjustable) and one-off orders, vacation holds, etc. that makes the Amazon patent fairly unique, not only TODAY, but more precisely in 2009.
Its not like scheduling Comcast to tell you they will be there between 3 and 5, (and having them show up at 7, or not at all). They know precisely what they have to do, and have everything in the truck, they don't have that many products.
Amazon has way more stuff than they could possibly put in the truck, and they have to sequence-load each truck for each route with a load that they might even have finalized until the truck pulls up to the loading dock.
And they have to put this before the user on their computer screen in an obvious and understandable way. They clearly imply drag-and-drop in their wording.
We all expected the supermarkets to come up with this. We've dreamt about it for years each time we trudge off to Safeway or Supervalue.
Nobody did it. You can't buy this service anywhere except portions of Seattle. So its pretty novel if you ask me.
Its ambitious. That it does not exist even today is pretty indicative that its unique and non-obvious. It might be considered obvious in retrospect, only if you're willing to equate a milkman to a full scale customization delivery schedule of a wide variety of grocery products, or simply assume into existence a computer system tied directly to a customer scheduled delivery schedule for almost any food item you want on a regular basis at a pre-determined time.
Like I say, Schwan's s the closest you can come. And its not even close.
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I'd be surprised of most ERP systems don't have something like this.
Enterprise Resource Planning? Really? In the grocery business? All driven by house wives on their iPads?
If its so obvious, why isn't anyone doing this? God knows we waste so much gas and time going to the grocery store every few days.
Why all the hate for the first group that could actually put all the pieces together and make it work?
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Nope. Not the same. (And cell phones have nothing to do with it).
Let me know then that oil truck driver will arrive with three frozen pizzas and a gallon of milk that I added to my account just last night, (while laying in bed with my tablet) for my kids birthday party, even though today isn't my normal day and those items are different than my normal grocery deliver that happens on monday at 5pm.
Oil delivery. Come on!!!
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Shut the fuck up, you shill.
Shouldn't you be busy catching fish or stealing depositors' money?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
They are patenting an entire delivery scheduling methodology for customer order management of groceries (etc) that will re-occur on a predictable and fairly precise time period of the customer's choosing.
I have a picture of a milkman's horse lifting his blinkers with one hoof and rolling his eyes at this patent, it's just ordinary business practice for any company that delivers stuff to your door. The local chemist paid me to deliver stuff on on a push bike way back in the 60's. Most family's had one car (at most), the chemist had plenty of regular customers who had difficulty getting around so he bent over backwards to accommodate their needs. He didn't have a computer and trucks, he had an order book, a big black phone, and a bunch of eager kids on push bikes who had more than enough local knowledge to make UPS blush. If a customer was in dire need during school hours, he would get in his VW and deliver it himself. Virtually the same service is available today but it's organized by the government, you get a qualified nurse in a tiny car rather than a grotty kid on a push bike. There is however a shit load more paper work involved to join up.
Copyright protects Amazon's software implementation of this age old business practice, the only possible use for a patent such as this is to burden and stall serious competitors with serious litigation, as in Apple vs Samsung. Software patents are a legislative experiment that failed. It was worth having the experiment, but now we know that all it does is provide an arena for elephants to fight, and we all know what happens to the grass when elephants fight.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
But this is different! It's revolutionary! You can't just do shit like saying "don't send any next week, I'm on holiday" but you can say "send double the next time, and make one decaff, I've got relatives visiting and one's on meds". And it uses, can you believe it, the internet!
You must not be a stupid cunt from Iceland if you can't see that.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Ship Groceries overnight? You want to spend 30 bucks shipping a quart of milk?
How can you ASK if the patent explains exactly how it is done, and in the same sentence GUESS that it is overly broad? Obviously you refuse to read it, but still want to pontificate about it.
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I have an idea for a great new invention. I call it the Rubber-Stamp Machine.
You insert a filing for a new patent, and it automatically stamps APPROVED on the patent. It can process hundred of patent applications per hour, without any human interaction or oversight needed.
There may already be prior art however, as it seems the USPTO already owns a few of these machines.
I'll have to double check but I'm sure all the major supermarkets in UK have had a recurring order facility for years. You get to pick a time slot as well.
"Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
Why all the hate for the first group that could actually put all the pieces together and make it work?
No one here hates them for "doing it," but some hate them for "patenting it." I don't even hate them for that. I don't hate Amazon at all. Amazon is just doing what any big company in a similar situation would do: try to patent everything and see what goes through. My "hate" is reserved for the USPTO. They supposed to be acting in the interest of the citizens. By allowing garbage patents like this, they are stifling competition and making our economy less efficient.
Its not a garbage patent. Its a protect your ass patent.
Someone was bound to sue them sooner or later.
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This patent is different, in that it allows Scheduling not only the day of a re-occurring delivery, but also the time. This is pretty significant.
are you fucking serious ?
some "deliveries" can be scheduled for a specific month, date or day of week. it's garbage collection. and you think increasing resolution a bit to add time of day is worth a patent ? that sounds like research & development department for retarded amazon engineers.
it has nothing at all to do with actually pulling it off and being profitable. in a densely populated region that would be easier... WAIT GOTTA PATENT SOME SHIT ABOUT THAT.
it's a sad state of mental capabilities if one can honestly claim that it's a valid idea to patent.
Rich
on the second thought, did i just fall for a clever troll ? :)
it did sound a bit too unbelievably silly...
Rich
Surely the process as you just described has been common in the restaurant supply system and other wholesale distribution channels for several decades. The previous process may be done on pieces of paper with a different degree of granularity, but the underlying concept is not new.
"Hey, which truck can I get this on? No, I do not need it that soon because it will be stale before the weekend rush. Thursday afternoon? Perfecto!"
Sure the concept is not new, but the execution (process) and the machinery involved is.
That is what patents protect. Not Ideas, but machines and methods of doing things.
Amazon has computerized the entire process, from grocery selection, to picking and packing, to scheduling and shipping. (Its a process patent - much loathed, but yet still within the law).
Remember a patent doesn't cover an idea, or some way of doing things in the past. It covers NEW things (machines) or ways of doing something (processes).
Just because the Wright Brothers invented an airplane doesn't mean there weren't gliders previously and internal combustion engines previously. And just because they got a patent (Did they?, guessing) doesn't mean that no one else can patent a different airplane, or a hang glider.
Combining previously invented things (old phone orders and manual lists, scheduled deliver routes) with new technology (computer order systems, fully automated picking packing loading, with closely scheduled routes all managed by computers, is a significant change.
Pick up anything in your house with a patent number on it. Then tell me it has never existed before, in any other form.
Patents for incremental improvements of brooms are just as valid as the patent for the first broom.
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a beautiful example of why patents should be abolished
Wait - did you actually READ what you just posted?
Look again at the text you quoted: "these systems may be limited in their flexibility for allowing modifications," which implies they also may not be. "Further, the customer may not be able to schedule the recurring orders for the same time and day," which implies they also may. All they say is that some existing delivery systems don't have these properties. But plenty of others do, and they don't even deny that. (Guess what? You can tell your newspaper company, "Don't deliver my paper for the next three days, since I'll be away," and they'll do it. There is nothing whatsoever novel in this. Just because some existing delivery systems don't have a certain property (but others do), that doesn't mean you can patent it!
"I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
... or rather hoping that the USPTO can't get any stupider. But they keep surprising me.
Your argument is with Amazon, the section you quoted was a quote directly out of the patent document.
As for not being able to patent it, The USPTO issued them a patent, so your protestations to the contrary are moot.
The newspaper is not groceries, they don't give you a guaranteed delivery time, and you have to call them up, and you can't log in to their web site and modify your order from the Times to also throw in 2 pounds of hamburger next thursday.
You can't pick and choose PIECES of a patent and scream "This is already done", Patents stand as a whole, all of it together. You don't get to invalidate a patent for a tricycle with a refrigerator under the seat just because someone else patented the tricycle and some other guy patented the refrigerator.
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As for not being able to patent it, The USPTO issued them a patent, so your protestations to the contrary are moot.
If that were true, our patent system would be even more fatally broken than it is. Patentability is determined by law (and ultimately by the courts), not by the incompetence of a patent examiner. Sadly, there are far too many incompetent patent examiners who approve a steady flood of bad patents on things that, by law, are not patentable. Those then need to get appealed, litigated, and ultimately rescinded at enormous cost. This is just the latest example.
And you missed my point about the quote. It doesn't say that no one has ever combined these elements before, only that there exist services that are missing one or more of these elements. There also are lots of existing services that do combine all of them and aren't missing any of them. Lots of other people in this thread have cited examples, so I won't repeat them.
"I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
So they're patenting the service which Safeway has been offering since 2007? And wasn't there a couple of companies that did the same thing back during web-bubble 1.0?
There also are lots of existing services that do combine all of them and aren't missing any of them.
Apparently not. Otherwise it would be simple for someone to come up with a realistic example.
So far, nobody has posted anything that comes close.
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Where do you buy things on line at safeway, AND get a choice delivery time slots, automatic re-orders, ability to log in and add or subtract from your automatic order, put your weekly order on hold while you are on vacation?
You have to place EACH order on line at safeway. You can't tell them to deliver a gallon of milk and a dozen eggs every 4 days at 5pm.
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I was doing that with Freshdirect in 2005. Except for the heating oil part.
That sounds extremely familiar
The crucial mistake you have made is to read the whole patent. The whole patent is typically a major misdirection. It talks of the glorious complex new idea they had and looks, to the layman, like something valuable. However, that's not what they are attempting to patent. What you want to read is claim 1 or more generally each of the "independent claims". Each of these things stands alone as a system that they are claiming a patent over and if you do what is stated in any one of the "independent claims" then you would be considered to be infringing. Almost nothing else in the patent, apart from, possibly, places where they define the meaning of words which occur in claim 1, has any real importance whatsoever. The courts will interpret your patent to cover even completely unrelated systems which use the same 'idea'.
Claim 1 in this case basically says, 'an automatic order system where you can change the items in the order and then it rebuilds the order'. Please note that it does not actually give any specifics about how that is done in terms of specific algorithms.
There are later "dependent claims" as in "the system of claim 1 where the xxxx is a yyyy". These do not in any way influence what the patent claims (since they would already be covered by claim 1). They just make it more difficult to get rid of the patent as overbroad and obvious, especially if you actually did more or less the same thing as Amazon is doing.
=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
And by "attempting to patent" you mean DID patent, because the patent was in fact issued.
Now it's up to someone else to fight to overturn it.
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Haven't you heard? USPTO stands for United States Patent The Obvious. So, in order to be able to patent something, you must be sure it's been done before for a number of years but the sucker forgot to patent it.
Its way more ambitious than the Milkman, and I'm not aware of anything that comes close.
Maybe you don't get out much? I worked for an online retailer a few years back and this was fairly standard technology in the Supply Chain game. We as retailers didn't need to know where the trucks were, we simply gave the package, the address and the delivery times to the courier company who have the smarts to manage drivers and vehicles. A couple years after that I did a small job for a courier company. The technology there was impressive and was fully geared towards reducing the standard 1-3 day delivery to under an hour. So you could order something online and have it at your door in a hour (obviously there are conditions that apply). Transport Logistics is a hugely competitive industry. Since the rise of online retailing, it has exploded as everyone now gets stuff delivered. While Amazon may be leading the charge in some areas of this industry, this idea is neither new or original.
Don't offend the monkeys.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
All the USPTO examiner had to do was to look on the OAGIS website www.openapplications.org (or EDIFACT or ANSI for that matter), find the appropriate business process documentation and even the XML data structure definition for the control messages. This stuff is 40 years old already. This should be a basic step in the review process. The auto supply companies have been doing this kind of thing for years, with computers, on the internet! The orders are complex and extremely time sensitive and if you screw up even a very few times you are de-sourced. Suppliers can get specific orders from the customer in the traditional way or manage specific inventory levels and needs that change over time on the customers premises. That having been said there is no fix until something pushes the system out of its current screwed up equilibrium state.
Note that this patent has been around for years. It was "Filed: November 2, 2009".
My milkman service (which also delivers bread, bagels, fruit, meat etc) has been doing Internet-based maintenance of both regular and irregular orders since 2007 at least. (That's when I started with them.)
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
Literally. I can have my milkman bring groceries, batteries, pretty much anything a Sam's Club or CostCo would have, periodic or one-time. USPTO is fuckin' uuuuuuup.
I'm not arguing that it's a defensible patent, but it's also not patenting what the summary or TFA claims. Here's the #1 core claim of the patent:
In other words, it's a particular implementation of a subscription system that has to include every element in the above list in order to infringe. It would be easy to work around this in implementing a subscription system. It's also not generally how milkmen used to operate. It's also PROBABLY covered by prior art, but whenever I hear "X just patented Y that's stupid LOLOL!" I have to go to the claims, and I usually see that, no, only a particular implementation/method for accomplishing Y is covered.
You should actually read the list. It covers a computer-controlled system for accepting order lists, and generating the orders before the delivery date so if the customer changes their order or whatever, you don't fuck it completely up. I mean, you can go ahead and 'workaround' checking to see if the customer cancelled, or 'workaround' checking to see that the order is sent out *before* the date the customer wanted it... Those are terrible workarounds though.
Exactly.
Its pretty amazing when you read all the claims, and imagine dragging and dropping a dozen eggs onto the manifest of a truck that will just happen to be near your house at 7pm every second Wednesday. And then being able to put that delivery on vacation hold, or add a one time order of 12 pork chops for the big barbecue you are planning next Saturday. And the delivery will take place within the time period you specify so the neighbors dog doesn't run off with your chops while you are at work.
Amazon has to know where the trucks will be at future points in time. Provide you with a way to put products on that truck, set them to be periodic or one time, Adjust your orders, add, subtract, reduce, or hold. All from your computer, and (hopefully) from your smartphone.
Its way more ambitious than the Milkman, and I'm not aware of anything that comes close.
People have to stop the knee-jerk reaction to headlines.
The logistical problems Amazon has chosen to deal with aren't covered by the patent.
You want to remember that and bring that up at the point they sue someone over this patent. If they get sued and use it for counter defence, you might consider not remembering..
=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
Roger that.
Incidentally, I did just check on the Wayback Machine, and the "change your order" form is clearly there in the version from December 2007. It's not just my flaky memory.
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
In a physical sense I'd be In front of a computer. Same as when I buy anything online. Url-wise, probably at safeway.com.
I tell my butler my requirements and he sorts it all out. Doesn't everyone?
That's what this bag of arse you're shamelessly shilling is. A butler, on the internet!.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."