Florida Sinkhole Highlights State's Geologic Instability

An anonymous reader writes "Last Thursday night, a sinkhole took the life of a man (TV news video, with ad) while he slept in his home in Seffner FL, near Tampa. While human fatalies are rare, sinkholes are so common in Florida that the insurance industry successfully lobbied the state lawmakers to pass legislation in 2011 making it more difficult for homeowners to claim sinkhole damages. The bedrock in Florida is limestone, a weakly soluble mineral formed from calcified deposits of sea creatures tens of millions of years ago. Above the limestone is a clay layer called the Hawthorn Formation which shields the limestone from ground water; and above the clay is sand. However, the protective clay layer is thin or nonexistent in some areas of Florida, particularly in the middle part of the state near the Gulf coast, where caves and sinkholes are common. Geologists say that human activity, particularly construction and irrigation, can trigger sinkholes by destabilizing the landscape above caverns by drawing down water tables and massing structures above them."

Comments

Who would have thought

[ArchieBunker]

it was a great idea to start building homes on swamp land?

Re:Who would have thought

[Frosty Piss]

...it was a great idea to start building homes on swamp land?

They have to build them someplace. Where would you suggest?

Re:Who would have thought

[Trepidity]

There's a lot of empty space in Montana I hear.

Re:Who would have thought

[PPH]

Texas.

Re:Who would have thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone from a place with permafrost?

Re:Who would have thought

[alen]

What about water?

I've read that lots of states around the Rockies have water shortages all the time

Re:Who would have thought

[K. S. Kyosuke]

it was a great idea to start building homes on swamp land?

If the castle sinks, you build another one on top of it. Repeat until it stands. (Then, marry a princess with huge...tracts of land.)

Re:Who would have thought

[Mashiki]

it was a great idea to start building homes on swamp land?

This doesn't have anything to do with swampland really, rather it has to with the limestone that makes up the base of Florida. Same with really anywhere there's limestone, Ontario, Michigan, parts of Quebec, large swaths of the NE US. Some places are more stable than others and don't have to worry about it. And there's no much you can do in some cases, and while the limestone is thick where I live several hundred feet there have been huge sink holes.

Re:Who would have thought

[cynyr]

near a super volcano, I think not!

Re:Who would have thought

[YrWrstNtmr]

Texas

Hurricanes.

Re:Who would have thought

[hairyfeet]

Arkansas? Pretty countryside and the majority of it is on solid bedrock. Pretty rivers, pretty mountains, lots of pretty nature and prices are a hell of a lot cheaper than in FL which is probably why we are suddenly getting so many retirees here.

But sometimes you just need to cut your losses which it sounds like there are parts of Florida that just aren't any good for building, same as i never understand why they keep rebuilding New Orleans, the whole reason it was put where it was was on account of river trade which isn't a big money maker anymore and its below sea level folks, time to accept that NO is a swamp and let it go, build farther up and a little higher off the ground and call that NO and be done with it. If that area of FL is so littered with sinkholes you are at risk of your house disappearing any minute time to pack up and move folks, just not a smart place to be.

Re:Who would have thought

[Phase Shifter]

This doesn't have anything to do with swampland really, rather it has to with the limestone that makes up the base of Florida. Same with really anywhere there's limestone, Ontario, Michigan, parts of Quebec, large swaths of the NE US. Some places are more stable than others and don't have to worry about it. And there's no much you can do in some cases, and while the limestone is thick where I live several hundred feet there have been huge sink holes.

Does Michigan even have much in the way of sinkholes or caves? My understanding was that glaciers in the last ice age scrubbed away most of the rock that was conducive to cave formation.

Re:Who would have thought

[hrvatska]

Texas Hurricanes.

And Florida doesn't have hurricanes?

Re:Who would have thought

[Yobgod Ababua]

Come on... please quote properly for full comedic effect.
"
When I first came here, this was all swamp.
Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them.
It sank into the swamp.
So I built a second one.
That sank into the swamp.
So I built a third.
That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp.
But the fourth one stayed up.
And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest castle in all of England.

Re:Who would have thought

[c0lo]

Texas.

For the frying pan into the fire: sinkholes too.

Re:Who would have thought

[gmuslera]

Better go with a bang. If that supervolcano decides to explode life will suck in most of the world anyway.

Re:Who would have thought

[Mashiki]

Does Michigan even have much in the way of sinkholes or caves?

It sure does.

Re:Who would have thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Ice, Snow everywhere. But not a drop to drink!

Re:Who would have thought

[onepoint]

that's what they use to do in Venice, then they stopped. sinking of the land still happens.

Re:Who would have thought

[Anonymous Coward]

And Texans.

Re:Who would have thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Florida has a water shortages all the time too.

http://priceofsprawl.com/water.html

Re:Who would have thought

[adisakp]

it was a great idea to start building homes on swamp land?

I dunno... ask the people in New Orleans who built homes on drained swampland that was below sea level that required constant pumping of water into canals (where the canal water level is higher than the hour ground levels).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/New_Orleans_17th_Street_Canal_filling.JPG

Re:Who would have thought

[girlintraining]

If the castle sinks, you build another one on top of it. Repeat until it stands. (Then, marry a princess with huge...tracts of land.)

Move to Minnesota. It's the most geologically stable location on the planet. There's a reason it's called the Iron Range. We have no earthquakes, hurricanes, and our buildings don't mysteriously vanish into holes in the ground. We have access to the largest reservoir of fresh water in the world as well. Global warming? Not a problem up here. Fertile farmland? Got that in spades too. Everything you need to survive just about any natural or man-made disaster is abundant here. We can survive the apocalypse. And we do, for three months out of the year, every year.

Our state budget has been balanced nearly every year. Ever. We have contributed far, far more to the federal government than we've gotten back. We're not number one in murders, shootings, rapes... or worst of all, politicians and lawyers. Every now and then one of the major parties gets the idea in their head of hosting their national convention up here. We make sure to kill 'em with nice, and they don't come back for a good long time after.

I gotta say, the things you people go through because you're afraid of a little snow is unbelieveable. Malaria. Hook worms. Giant mouths full of teeth attached to a hide thick enough to repel small arms fire (it's called an alligator). Your buildings are routinely eaten by nature, sometimes quite suddenly. Your summers are so scorching hot they're having to invent new colors to describe exactly how long you have to live once the air conditioning goes out. You don't have enough water, and fight with each other over it.

Be a little cold, or risk every other malady known to man. Apparently... it's a defect in our DNA. We'll tolerate anything as long as it doesn't make us shiver, or obstruct the free flow of traffic...

Re:Who would have thought

[SternisheFan]

...it was a great idea to start building homes on swamp land?

They have to build them someplace. Where would you suggest?

You can build in wetlands IF you drive LOTS of friction pilings for each structure deeply enough. You might need to replace soil, even put in a raft foundation to evenly distribute the home's weight.

"Raft foundation is a thick concrete slab reinforced with steel which covers the entire contact area of the structure like a thick floor. Sometimes area covered by raft may be greater than the contact area depending on the bearing capacity of the soil underneath. The reinforcing bars runs normal to each other in both top and bottom layers of steel reinforcement. Sometimes inverted main beams and secondary beams are used to carry column loads that require thicker foundation slab considering economy of the structure. Both beams cast monolithically with raft slab."

http://civil-engg-world.blogspot.com/2012/06/what-is-raft-foundation-difference.html?m=1

http://menbuy.net/home-improvement-2/preparations-for-building-in-a-swamp/

Re:Who would have thought

[MickLinux]

And bushes.

Re:Who would have thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Minnesota has quite a bit of limestone and sinkholes. Fountain, Minnesota has the nickname, "sinkhole capital of the world," and there was some news recently of someone dying in a sinkhole in St. Paul.

Re:Who would have thought

[MickLinux]

Yeah,but you have michigan next door. And chicago to the south. And you're possibly not asgeologically stable as you think. No place is perfect.

Re:Who would have thought

[fustakrakich]

Kinda reminds me of Sam Kinison: ...There wouldn't BE world hunger, if you people would LIVE WHERE THE FOOD IS! YOU LIVE IN A DESERT! YOU LIVE IN A FUCKING DESERT! NOTHING GROWS OUT HERE! NOTHING'S GONNA GROW OUT HERE! YOU SEE THIS? HUH? THIS IS SAND. KNOW WHAT IT'S GONNA BE A HUNDRED YEARS FROM NOW? IT'S GONNA BE SAND! YOU LIVE IN A FUCKING DESERT! GET YOUR STUFF, GET YOUR SHIT, WE'LL MAKE ONE TRIP, WE'LL TAKE YOU TO WHERE THE FOOD IS! WE HAVE DESERTS IN AMERICA -- WE JUST DON'T LIVE IN THEM, ASSHOLES!"

lame filter is on the attack so i have to write all this useless fucking crap to fucking get around it! so i will scream very softly...ahhhhh! ahhhhhh! ahhhhhhhhhh!

are you lonely tonight..... ahhhhh ahhhhhh you fucking whore!i hope you die! ahhhhhh ahhhhh!

how long do i have to do this to get this fucking post out? huh? Tell me! you bitch!

Re:Who would have thought

[rgmoore]

There's a reason it's called the Iron Range.

Yes. It's because there's lots of iron ore there. It has nothing to do with geological stability, though Minnesota is nicely stable. Of course that stability means that what passes for a mountain there is pretty laughable.

We have no earthquakes, hurricanes, and our buildings don't mysteriously vanish into holes in the ground.

Yes, but you do have floods, blizzards, and pestilential mosquitoes in the summer. Your winters are so miserable that people literally live in giant shopping malls so they don't have to go outside.

We have access to the largest reservoir of fresh water in the world as well.

No you don't. Both Lake Baikal and Lake Tanganyika are larger than Lake Superior by volume, which is the only sensible measure of how much fresh water a lake contains. Lake Baikal has a larger volume than all 5 great lakes combined.

Look, I'm sure that Minnesota is a nice place. It seemed nice when I visited. But it has its own set of problems, and it lacks things that other places have that people who live there really enjoy. I'm glad you like it there, but don't try to impose your ideas of what an ideal place looks like on everyone else.

Re:Who would have thought

[trout007]

Actually the swamp land is very stable since it's always filled with water. It is the high and dry areas you have to watch out for.

Re:Who would have thought

[cffrost]

...it was a great idea to start building homes on swamp land?

They have to build them someplace. Where would you suggest?

Alaska.

Re:Who would have thought

[Kozz]

Yeah,but you have michigan next door. And chicago to the south. And you're possibly not asgeologically stable as you think. No place is perfect.

Michigan is next door to Minnesota? Check a map...

Re:Who would have thought

[Anonymous Coward]

You may want to rethink your theory of being geologically safe in MN..

Look at slide 3 of this presentation
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/51007724/displaymode/1247?beginSlide=3

Duluth, Minn., 2011

A car sits in a giant sinkhole in Duluth, Minn., on June 20, 2011. Residents evacuated their homes and animals escaped from pens at a zoo as floods fed by a steady torrential downpour struck northeastern Minnesota, inundating the city of Duluth, officials said.

Re:Who would have thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it's worse than that. Minnesota borders that shit crazy state of Wisconsin!

Re:Who would have thought

[CFBMoo1]

Texas? Are you mad?! Killer tumbleweeds live there!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6DSm8KaeqA&t=014

Re:Who would have thought

[osu-neko]

Be a little cold, or risk every other malady known to man. Apparently... it's a defect in our DNA. We'll tolerate anything as long as it doesn't make us shiver, or obstruct the free flow of traffic...

I once said to a friend who had moved to Minnesota from Nigeria that the cold must be the worst thing about Minnesota. He claimed it was actually another of Minnesota's assets. He asserted, "it keeps the riff-raff out." So apparently even our perceived negatives are positives.

Re:Who would have thought

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in Florida in the Tampa area and I'm thinking of moving out, because of this last episode I'm starting to research the sinkhole problem more closely. I have found out no part of Florida is a safe place to build. If you look at the sinkhole map of Florida, you'll find that Florida is a ticking time bomb for more and frequent sinkholes. I'm even considering moving out of Florida.
 

Re:Who would have thought

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you 100%. I live in Tampa.

Re:Who would have thought

[hairyfeet]

You and the other AC ought to take a look at AR, prices are cheap, the air is clean, as long as you don't live in LR or Pine Bluff frankly the crime rate is crazy low, the prices are so cheap you could have a McMansion for what a 3 bedroom goes for in Tampa and you'll have it on a couple of dozen acres with an incredible view of mountains and valleys, just some really beautiful country. Oh and the temps are warm, most of the time its practically like living in the tropics as we only have one or two weeks of really cold weather a year, its just really nice.

I can walk out my door and walk down the side streets at 3AM and the worse that will happen is maybe a cop ask if I've had a breakdown or somebody be walking the other way and ask if i have a cig,where you gonna find that kind of "leave it to beaver" levels of peace in this day and age?

Re:Who would have thought

[thetoadwarrior]

Because the midwest is jam packed full of people.

Re:Who would have thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, I'm sure that Minnesota is a nice place. It seemed nice when I visited. But it has its own set of problems, and it lacks things that other places have that people who live there really enjoy. I'm glad you like it there, but don't try to impose your ideas of what an ideal place looks like on everyone else.

No, it's not a nice place. He's trying to increase his property values by increasing market demand. But maybe I've been spending too much time on stock market forums.

Re:Who would have thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay.

Yes, they share a border.

Re:Who would have thought

[MickLinux]

North michigan, north minnesota. Lake superior. Oh, and great lakes tectonic zone.

PS:I was born in Wisconsin, you insensitive clods! (I really was, and I have good memories of the years I was there, at the university of Wisconsin housing for grad students with children. It was cold, and we loved it.)

Re:Who would have thought

[RabidReindeer]

it was a great idea to start building homes on swamp land?

Who keeps tossing this stereotype around? The swamp land was what 1920s real estate developers sold to Yankees. These days we try to keep them as "protected wetlands". Despite the developers screaming about the goddam gubmint interfering with their rights.

Most of Florida, actually, is built on dirty beach sand with occasional layers of clay.

But underneath the layers of sand and clay - and the swamps - is a limestone substrate. Unlike, say granite, limestone can be eaten up relatively quickly (in geological terms) by acidic water. When the water level rises and falls, this agitates the process. And, since most of the people in Florida get their water by sucking it out of this same substrate, and since dry years have been more common lately, you end up with big hollow spaces underground with no water to help prop them up, So they collapse. Often, so does what's on top of them, which is the visible sinkhole. And with a still-growing population, the odds that the collapse will happen under a house - or even an occupied vehicle - go up.

Florida is dotted with lots of depressions, ponds, and small lakes. Many of them started out as sinkholes.

Re:Who would have thought

[Anonymous Coward]

please. dont advertise. please. DONT FUCK US ALL.

Re:Who would have thought

[toddestan]

Actually, Michigan and Minnesota are a lot closer than most people would think, thanks to Royale Island. Of course, Isle Royale has no permanent inhabitants.

Re:Who would have thought

[Anonymous Coward]

All that sounds good till you consider Minnesota is also home to Michelle Bachmann. Uhh...No Thanks!

Re:Who would have thought

[IAmR007]

Another city that is in for a great deal of natural disaster damage is Tacoma, Washington. There hasn't been much geological activity since the city was built, so it's not something many people in the area really think about. First of all, it's basically on the coast with little protection from tsunamis; the Cascadia subduction zone is due for a 9+ earthquake. The buildings in the region don't have nearly as good earthquake proofing as Japan, either. Seattle will get hit, too. Secondly, the river Tacoma is built on comes from Mt Rainier, which would produce massive lahars and bury a good chunk of the city in mud. It seems it's the rare events that are particularly hard to avoid. Mt. Vesuvius also has a large population around it these days, and we all know how that turned out for the Ancient Greeks.

Re:Who would have thought

[dacaldar]

That's what they did for the Arc de Triomphe in Paris...

Re:Who would have thought

[Anonymous Coward]

Aah, Florida... Also known as "God's waiting room"

And, America's 'Wang'. Don't believe it? Look at a map.

What's The Tech Angle?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the tech angle to this story? It's a sinkhole. Ground cover collapse is not a Slashdot story.

Re:What's The Tech Angle?

[Frosty Piss]

What's the tech angle to this story? It's a sinkhole. Ground cover collapse is not a Slashdot story.

Oh, I don't know.. Geology? Engineering? Perhaps involving technology to detect and prevent these things?

Something like this perhaps?

Re:What's The Tech Angle?

[Ol Biscuitbarrel]

Some tech input will show up regardless of what's in TFS/A. General science articles are always welcome for me at any rate. Regarding this topic, here's a good photo gallery: Notable sinkholes from around the globe.

Re:What's The Tech Angle?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps involving technology to detect and prevent these things?

Prevent? With technology?

This is just a shit happens thing. Aside from sinking pillars down to bedrock to support your house (Yeah, a $1,000,000 2 bedroom Bungalow), there's really nothing that can be done technologically to prevent this or even mitigate the damage.

And in other places folks have to deal with tornadoes, hurricanes, earth quakes, lions, tigers and bears.

Re:What's The Tech Angle?

[Frosty Piss]

This is just a shit happens thing.

No, it isn't

Re:What's The Tech Angle?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not the first time that holes in Florida being loosely covered up, just search Slashdot for "hanging chads".

Your defenses are quite right as it is something that needs to be studied if we are ever to colonize another planet, especially if we have to terraform it first. Terraforming the inside of a satellite as well. Stable and clean water tables will be an important of that.

Re:What's The Tech Angle?

[xclr8r]

Shit happens. Those that don't do anything deserve their lot in filth. Others collect it for sanitary reasons. Still others notice that the big piles of crap start to heat up. The eventually figure out about composting and manure being excellent fertilizers. Here is a blog post that actually looks at regional zones and architecture and see what fits and makes sense where. http://urbanlabglobalcities.blogspot.ru/2012/05/from-hard-to-soft-how-new-approach-on.html

Re:What's The Tech Angle?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Something like this perhaps?

. . . I was thinking /dev/null . . . how an improper implementation could cause OS instability . . .

Re:What's The Tech Angle?

[Anonymous Coward]

Offtopic, moronic, not funny. Idiotic. You're a 19 year old freshman, yes?

Re:What's The Tech Angle?

[Yobgod Ababua]

Limestone is technology!

"Perhaps involving technology to detect and prevent these things?"

Never happen when money is on the line. I remember, back in Pennsylvania, the creekbeds always had a good stretch of uninhabited land around them (usually treated an unofficial parkspace).

One year someone bought up some of that land and built a bunch of brand new houses right up against the creek... ...and people (presumably from out of state) bought them. Then the next big rains came, and the creeks flooded, and the houses were all ruined.

I blame the exploitative bastards who shoved those homes in where 250+ years of experience said no homes should be.

Re:What's The Tech Angle?

[Anonymous Coward]

Woof!

Re:What's The Tech Angle?

[mcneely.mike]

lions, tigers and bears.

Oh my!

Re:What's The Tech Angle?

[Anonymous Coward]

They use a lot of really cool tech inspecting sinkholes and inspecting land before constructions projects. I got to go with my uncle's boyfriend last time I was in Florida to see what their work was like, never even knew we had that kind of stuff available.

Re:What's The Tech Angle?

[Jmc23]

umm, how about bioengineering bacteria to secrete a substance to alter the limestone to reduce solubility?

Underground water management?

Above ground water management for mapped out sensitive areas?

Dimwit.

qq

[Anonymous Coward]

qq

Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

Smart of the insurance industry to make themselves useless. Now, if they never fork out, why should I have an insurance?

Re:Pretty clever

[CncRobot]

The state runs the insurance company that most people in Florida have to use now, called Citizens. It wasn't a "problem" until the state had to start paying out, before when it was just private insurance companies this wasn't as big of an issue.

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

Smart of the insurance industry to make themselves useless. Now, if they never fork out, why should I have an insurance?

Because the bank requires that you pay for insurance as part of the mortgage.

Because the state requires that you pay for insurance to drive legally.

The insurances companies have been tremendously smart. Securing mandates that you pay more and more for their products, acquiring guarantees of profits, all while reducing their liability and payouts.

Re:Pretty clever

[alen]

Traditional insurance assumes a payout of around 1% of people filing claims per year. The idea is you pay for decades and file one huge claim in that time that would bankrupt you otherwise

Only health insurance is structured for you to use as much or more of what you pay in premiums

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the state requires that you pay for insurance to drive legally.

Only if you don't have the money to cover the minimum liability. If you do have money, as long as it is set aside in one of couple ways so it can't disappear before needed, you don't need insurance to drive.

Re:Pretty clever

[AK Marc]

Most of the ways you have to set aside the large lump of cash cost more than the minimum insurance, as the state, not you, gets the interest on it, and you can't do anything else with it. That, and anyone with enough cash to give away to remove the insurance requirement would probably prefer insurance with a nice high limit.

Re:Pretty clever

[arashi no garou]

Because the state requires that you pay for insurance to drive legally.

Only if you don't have the money to cover the minimum liability. If you do have money, as long as it is set aside in one of couple ways so it can't disappear before needed, you don't need insurance to drive.

Are you speaking just of Florida? Because it's different in every state. Here in Georgia you have to have liability coverage at minimum to legally operate a vehicle, even if you have thousands in a savings account named "just in case I'm a bad driver". There was a time when you didn't have to have insurance in Alabama, but a few years ago they mandated minimum liability insurance coverage as well.

I'm normally not keen on the government telling us how to live our lives, but having mandatory liability coverage is a no-brainer for the vast majority of poor and middle-class citizens who simply can't be assumed to be responsible enough to have a personal insurance savings plan, and can't afford a huge payout if they do cause an accident. I'd rather pay $50/month to insure that I won't be sued and bankrupted because I made a mistake driving, than bank that money and hope that I've saved up enough to fight said lawsuit.

On the other side of the coin, I'd much rather the person who hits me has liability coverage, so their insurance company takes care of me instead of leaving me to chase after their assets in court. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if states without mandatory liability coverage have more hit-and-run accidents than other states.

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

The state runs the insurance company that most people in Florida have to use now, called Citizens. It wasn't a "problem" until the state had to start paying out

Nope, most people don't use Citizen's for starters and it didn't become a problem until lawyers started suing insurance companies for any crack in a house regardless of cause. All you had to do was live in a sinkhole "zone". A lot of people didn't use the money to fix the problem, all they did was pay off the mortgage, go shopping, or take the money and sell the house. Nice article in the Orlando Sentinel about it if you care to look it up.

Re:Pretty clever

[mspohr]

I pay more for health insurance in one year than the total of my entire life's expenses for health services (and I am old).

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

Traditional insurance assumes a payout of around 1% of people filing claims per year. The idea is you pay for decades and file one huge claim in that time that would bankrupt you otherwise

Not exactly, that is what savings are for.
Insurance is for distributing risks. You might know that one out of thousands are victims of a certain accident and you belong to that group of thousands. Insurance is a way to make it possible for all those persons to take 1/1000th of that damage for sure instead of having to deal with the risk of the entire damage.
With "modern" insurance companies it's more like you take that 1/1000th of damage but still have the risk.

Re:Pretty clever

[MartinSchou]

I'm normally not keen on the government telling us how to live our lives, but having mandatory liability coverage is a no-brainer for the vast majority of poor and middle-class citizens who simply can't be assumed to be responsible enough to have a personal insurance savings plan, and can't afford a huge payout if they do cause an accident

Emphasis added.

First of all - fuck you.
Secondly - fuck you some more.

If you're poor, how the fuck are you supposed to put money aside for a personal insurance savings plan? Especially in the US, where people are likely to get sued for anything and the cost of any kind of medical assistance is likely to be ruinous if not for insurance.

Seriously - you even pointed it out yourself, right after you made your quite frankly extremely insulting comment!can't be assumed to be responsible

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you speaking just of Florida? Because it's different in every state. Here in Georgia you have to have liability coverage at minimum to legally operate a vehicle, even if you have thousands in a savings account named "just in case I'm a bad driver"

Yes, the details can be different in every state, although I am not aware of any state that does not allow you to self-insure. Georgia is no exception, and it allows you to self-insure your own vehicle by having enough money ($50k for one vehicle) to set aside, either into bonds issued by the DMV or into a CD account at a bank.

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

I have not looked at how it is done in all 50 states, but in the least half dozen places I've lived, there were usually at least two options: a specific kind of bank account, e.g. a CD, or a government issued bond. Both gave interest to the person/business self-insuring. It might not be as good of interest as properly investing the money, but you weren't losing money due to inflation at least, and the government was not making a profit off you.

Re:Pretty clever

[demonlapin]

You're not dead yet, so it's a bit early to be so confident.

Re:Pretty clever

[fustakrakich]

Yeah, well, if you live in Florida, don't keep that cash under a mattress.

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. I'd wager he's some spoiled little fucking piece of self-entitled shit that hasn't had a taste of the real world yet. What an ignorant fucking sack of dog dick cheese.

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm normally not keen on the government telling us how to live our lives, but having mandatory liability coverage is a no-brainer for the vast majority of poor and middle-class citizens who simply can't be assumed to be responsible enough to have a personal insurance savings plan, and can't afford a huge payout if they do cause an accident

Emphasis added.

First of all - fuck you.
Secondly - fuck you some more.

If you're poor, how the fuck are you supposed to put money aside for a personal insurance savings plan? Especially in the US, where people are likely to get sued for anything and the cost of any kind of medical assistance is likely to be ruinous if not for insurance.

Seriously - you even pointed it out yourself, right after you made your quite frankly extremely insulting comment!can't be assumed to be responsible

Why argue from the poor's perspective. It affects the rich too. First, it is insurance so it is like playing slots and expecting to make a profit. That's not to say it is worthless or stupid, but you don't buy insurance to get richer.

Second, the mandates cause people like me with assets far, far beyond their minimum coverage rates to be captive customers of the insurance company. I likely overbuy since I must buy the product, don't have time to shop around, and don't care much about a bill I'll just throw on some expense report (when I get around to doing those).

Third, the mandates do not protect me (that's what MY insurance does) it protects the insurance company from people cancelling coverage, driving more carefully, and electing to NOT drive unfixable museum pieces around at 80 mph around other distracted unfixable museoum pieces.

Any GPP thinking this is a "no brainer" is the no brainer. Insurance costs go up with appreciably affecting coverage rates but with substantial sums going to fines for the scofflaws and premiums for the lawabiding. The victims have a small fund somewhere that likely and literally brag about 50% of the money actually reaching victims.

To reiterate the other point, fuck you again.

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

In Germany (and Europe) certain types of insurances are mandatory if you have a house. As everbody has one the rates are very low. On top of that you MAY insure against storm or whatever damage yourself if you'd like to.

We believe to be this to be a good thing.

Re:Pretty clever

[arashi no garou]

Newsflash: I am poor. I work with other poor people, and I live right in the middle of the poorest part of my county. And I'm damned happy that I'm allowed to have liability only insurance on my 1982 pickup truck, because if I were forced to have full coverage as owners of new vehicles do, I wouldn't be able to afford to drive it. My house cost less than the average full sized SUV, and I can barely afford those mortgage payments.

So fuck you, asshole. I'm living in near poverty and I know just how irresponsible my peers are with savings. I'm right there with them, I haven't had a savings account since high school, and I'm 35 now.

Re:Pretty clever

[arashi no garou]

The problem with the way self-insurance works is that it is only feasible for the very wealthy, and those are the types who can afford to shop around and get a much better rate than us peons. So self-insurance is completely off the table for pretty much anyone who makes less than $100k per year.

Re:Pretty clever

[cellocgw]

I pay more for health insurance in one year than the total of my entire life's expenses for health services (and I am old).

So now we know that:

1) you're a doctor
2) you've been lucky enough not to suffer significant either organic or physical injury
3) When it comes to statistics you're a fucking moron.

FWIW, I'm not an MD but have both friends and family members who are. I don't know any of them who would make as foolish a statement about insurance as you did here.

Re:Pretty clever

[mspohr]

Fairly rude comment but I'll respond.
I spoke only about my personal experience, not statistics.

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, self insurance is difficult if you don't have a lot of money. But that is a different statement than saying self insurance is not allowed, especially when one of the methods is exactly: keeping thousands in the bank account in case something goes wrong.

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

Second, the mandates cause people like me with assets far, far beyond their minimum coverage rates to be captive customers of the insurance company.

For people with assets "far, far, beyond" minimum liability, you can self-insure. Most (if not all) states have a couple options for how to do this.

I likely overbuy since I must buy the product, don't have time to shop around, and don't care much about a bill I'll just throw on some expense report (when I get around to doing those).

Wouldn't the logical thing be for people with money but not time is to pay someone to shop for them? If the prices were really that different, you could just pay a random secretary type person to shop around for you. But even that is not necessary, as it is pretty cheap to get an insurance agent to do the shopping for you.

Are you arguing from the rich perspective, or from the ignorant perspective?

Re:Pretty clever

[cellocgw]

Ok, so you choose to deny your own ignorance? Did you ever so much as open a copy of NEJM in your life? "The plural of anecdote is not data." If that's not clear enough for you: your personal experience is 100% irrelevant, and you do yourself and the public a disservice by posting as though it were informative or indicative of any suggested action.

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

I make over $100k and the idea of insuring myself sounds completely insane. In Oregon, to even legally do that I would need at least $50k in cash in a dedicated account. In the time it would take to save up $50k in cash, I could have been depositing that into a mutual fund and made far more in interest than I would have paid out to an insurance company. Self insurance makes sense for the rich, where rich means a person with a couple tens of millions of dollars. Not somebody making $100k.

Re:Pretty clever

[tompaulco]

Smart of the insurance industry to make themselves useless. Now, if they never fork out, why should I have an insurance?

Because the bank requires that you pay for insurance as part of the mortgage.

Because the state requires that you pay for insurance to drive legally.

The insurances companies have been tremendously smart. Securing mandates that you pay more and more for their products, acquiring guarantees of profits, all while reducing their liability and payouts.

God help us if they ever make health insurance required.

Re:Pretty clever

[tompaulco]

Traditional insurance assumes a payout of around 1% of people filing claims per year. The idea is you pay for decades and file one huge claim in that time that would bankrupt you otherwise

Only health insurance is structured for you to use as much or more of what you pay in premiums

Health Insurance works exactly like other insurance. The problem is that hardly anybody actually has health insurance, and the current administration is trying to get rid of health insurance in favor of health PLANS.

Re:Pretty clever

[tompaulco]

If you're poor, how the fuck are you supposed to put money aside for a personal insurance savings plan?

Well, if you can afford to pay insurance including the insurance company's profit margin, then you should be able to afford to put the money aside yourself.

Re:Pretty clever

[tompaulco]

I'm normally not keen on the government telling us how to live our lives, but having mandatory liability coverage is a no-brainer for the vast majority of poor and middle-class citizens who simply can't be assumed to be responsible enough to have a personal insurance savings plan, and can't afford a huge payout if they do cause an accident. I'd rather pay $50/month to insure that I won't be sued and bankrupted because I made a mistake driving, than bank that money and hope that I've saved up enough to fight said lawsuit.
What's really intriguing is how insurance skyrocketed when they made it mandatory that everyone had it, when in effect you would assume that the pool got bigger and so costs should go down. Of course, making something legally required will absolutely ALWAYS result in higher prices, because what are you going to do, NOT buy it? And go to jail instead?
Even more interesting is how you also have to pay uninsured motorists coverage, even though insurance coverage is mandatory. Because the type of people that run into other people usually don't have insurance, and for some reason, even though they are saving thousands of dollars a year by not having insurance, they still can't afford to fix your car when they run into it.

Re:Pretty clever

[RevDisk]

You're being rude to a person for just making a passing remark. There was nothing wrong with his comment. And while anecdotal information is not data, it can be interesting or amusing. His comment is also worthwhile of pointing out the insurance is a lotto. You may "win big" (get a lot more out than you put in), or you may "lose" (get a lot less out than you put in). This is every form of insurance. And they are carefully formulated that the insurance company MUST win in the long haul or they won't stay in business. The smarter insurance companies carefully maintain 5-10% profit margin. Some of them have been around for centuries. It's a steady, if boring, industry.

Both NEJM and JAMA have less hardcore medicine in them now, and a LOT more fluff. More politics than even a decade ago. To overstate the matter in a humorous way, I suspect NEJM will be the Cosmo of medical journals within another X years.

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

In the time it would take to save up $50k in cash, I could have been depositing that into a mutual fund and made far more in interest than I would have paid out to an insurance company.

Why the hell would you need to save it up as cash instead of putting into a fund while you build up the money? And a lot of the self-insuring options produce interest too, which while not competitive with an aggressive fund, can at least push off inflation losses.

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

Second, the mandates cause people like me with assets far, far beyond their minimum coverage rates to be captive customers of the insurance company.

For people with assets "far, far, beyond" minimum liability, you can self-insure. Most (if not all) states have a couple options for how to do this.

I likely overbuy since I must buy the product, don't have time to shop around, and don't care much about a bill I'll just throw on some expense report (when I get around to doing those).

Wouldn't the logical thing be for people with money but not time is to pay someone to shop for them? If the prices were really that different, you could just pay a random secretary type person to shop around for you. But even that is not necessary, as it is pretty cheap to get an insurance agent to do the shopping for you.

Are you arguing from the rich perspective, or from the ignorant perspective?

Both. "Self-insuring" and shopping around for someone to shop around are both tasks beyond my knowledge and level of time commitment.

A cursory search suggests that you are FULL OF FUCKING SHIT:

(625 ILCS 5/7-502) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 7-502)
        Sec. 7-502. Self-insurers. Any person in whose name more than 25 motor vehicles are registered may qualify as a self-insurer by obtaining a certificate of self-insurance issued by the Director of the Department of Insurance as provided in this Section.

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=062500050HCh.+7+Art.+VI&ActID=1815&ChapterID=49&SeqStart=96500000&SeqEnd=97700000

Sure I could buy 23 more vehicles, but I'm not Jay Leno Rich

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

Georgia most certainly allows single vehicle owners to self insure. It requires a $50k bond, as spelled out in their code section on financial requirements.

Shopping around for an insurance agent is beyond your time commitment but not positing on Slashdot? It took me 5 minutes to find mine, and that included four minutes of reading reviews.

Re:Pretty clever

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for the Georgia link. Sadly, I'm still in Illinois.

I don't think you understand my point about time, shopping around, etc. As for insurance, I'm like a guy who buys a Mac - I just don't fucking care about the price. I'm a captured customer. "HANDS UP!" OK you got me, I'll go quietly...

I have LOTS of time to post on Slashdot and shoot the shit with strangers because that is what I enjoy doing. Things like paying bills, expense reports, taxes, - blah! - hate all that! Don't care about the money - I have probably $20k due in refunds but only today made the appointment to get that for 2011-2012. You see my point... lazy!

As for personal assistants (remote as I don't have money to burn... yet), that would be nice and something to consider some day. What the scope of that would be and the security considerations I have to wonder, but it is an interesting concept.

It is the same with health insurance. Going off plan at work would cause issues - especially if certain people found out. Plus I'm a healthy, single guy who lowers averages. It is tax preferred and I hardly miss the money. Do I think I'd have been better off sucking ALL money into gold rather than insurance? Yeah, to the tune of more than 6 figures at 40 already. Insurance is a racket. I'll just keep doing what I do and try not to let it bother me. Maybe some day I'll hit the insurance jackpot by getting cancer or something.

Florida state website about it

[Trepidity]

The state's Department of Environmental Protection has a nice collection of sinkhole resources, including a database of incidents, and a poster with a map.

Re:Florida state website about it

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no! Disney World in Orlando Florida is built on a massive sinkhole!
It's a sinkhole world afterall!

Aquafilter pumping

[jacobsm]

Let's pump massive amounts of water out of the aquafilter. What could possibility go wrong? (Living in West Central Florida on the edge of a well field).

Re:Aquafilter pumping

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Aquifer. I don't think this is connected to groundwater pumping.

Re:Aquafilter pumping

[Grayhand]

Aquifer. I don't think this is connected to groundwater pumping.

It can be the start of a sink hole. Drawing out too much water can make the aquifer collapse. It can create a void where rain water flows into washing away the collapsed parts of the aquifer creating an actual void. With broken water lines they can form in days or weeks this one could have taken years. What's scary is they used to be rare events but they are getting more common so something has changed. Just building housing developments changes the flow of water with unknown effects. Most seem to happen along coastal areas, say 20 or 30 miles of the ocean so drained aquifers and redirected water would be the likely causes. look at it this way, aquifers have been stable for thousands of years then we remove billions of gallons from them in a few decades and don't expect a problem? Think of them as big water beds. What happens to your water bed when the water drains out? Now picture it with porous rock only you stick a hose in and start intermittently flushing water in and out. When there was water in the rock it would buffer the affect of the new water but now it flushes freely through the voids washing parts away. Parts of Florida are a ticking time bomb. Personally I think the bigger problem is brackish water flooding the aquifers. The aquifers are retreating at several feet a year so eventually the fresh water will all be miles inland. All those private wells will be pumping sea water.

Re:Aquafilter pumping

[Anonymous Coward]

This is it. Farmers are taking the water for their crops. Not to irrigate them, but to run water on the night after night to stave the frost. The net result is more and more property are sinking because the aquifers have lost most of their water.

Farmers and the counties need to work on using reclaimed water for frost prevention, and not steal the public water table at the costs of people losing their homes.

Re:Aquafilter pumping

[peragrin]

sounds like god is getting his chain saw out to cut florida out of the USA.

It is only old folks and cubans anyways there really isn't anything to be missed there.

Re:Aquafilter pumping

[Anonymous Coward]

There's definitely a connection, no doubt about it. The USGS has been watching this stuff happen for decades -- no sinkholes elsewhere, but for example the land in Las Vegas used to be several dozen feet higher than it was before they pumped all the water out of the aquifer.

Re:Aquafilter pumping

[blackraven14250]

I think it's a stretch to call aquifers seriously stable over geologic time anyway, but consider the effect carbon dioxide has on the pH of water. That alone could cause a significant erosion of limestone. Keeping corals in a tank with even a slightly higher than average carbon dioxide concentration is hard because of the unpredictability of the pH, even with proper dosing of additives to keep it stable.

Re:Aquafilter pumping

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's a stretch to call aquifers seriously stable over geologic time anyway, but consider the effect carbon dioxide has on the pH of water. That alone could cause a significant erosion of limestone. Keeping corals in a tank with even a slightly higher than average carbon dioxide concentration is hard because of the unpredictability of the pH, even with proper dosing of additives to keep it stable.

You mean greenhouse emissions destroys american's homes? How ironic is it!

insurance companies

[Titan1080]

The part about the insurance companies really pisses me off. First of all, it's REQUIRED that we insure almost EVERYTHING now. and then the greedy jewish fucks actually get legislation passed, ensuring that it's nearly impossible to recoup any money after losses. Meanwhile they remain one of the most profitable businesses in human history.

Re:insurance companies

[Frosty Piss]

The part about the insurance companies really pisses me off. First of all, it's REQUIRED that we insure almost EVERYTHING now...

You had me until this point. But then you had to say...

and then the greedy jewish fucks actually get legislation passed...

Proving that you are a moron who should not have children.

Your post history shows that you are a Troll Account anyway, and your trolls indicate that you are under 20.

Re:insurance companies

[AK Marc]

You do realize why the Jewish fucks (you should capitalize Jew, even when calling then dirty Jews) are all schiester bankers and jewelers, right? For many years, and in many places, they were banned from owning land or otherwise fully participating in the economy. When you are a Jew living in an Islamic area, and you can't invest in many things (like land), and Musilms are banned from being bankers, but not banned from using them, then naturally, you'll start a bank. You have cash and there's a need others can't, by law, meet. Same with jewels. If you have piles of spare money and are banned by law from investing in a number of things, jewels are an easy way to concentrate wealth in something that is less volatile than tulip bulbs.

The laws pushed a highly persecuted people into specific industries historically, and today we make fun of them for what we forced them to do previously.

Re:insurance companies

[Anonymous Coward]

Jews lent money to the Nazis, even after the gas chambers were public knowledge. Tells you a lot about that "religious" doesn't it. Don't believe me? Spend a massive 10 minutes looking into the Roschilds and their meteoric rise in wealth.

Re:insurance companies

[Frosty Piss]

Given the current political bent of the average Slashdotter today, I suppose the above post will be modded "insightful".

Re:insurance companies

[Sabriel]

Y'know, you can claim to be any religion you like, but just claiming something doesn't automatically make it true. Wolves in sheep's clothing, etc.

Re:insurance companies

[Anonymous Coward]

I've also heard that the people who lent money to the Nazis were men too. Tells you a lot about the gender, which surely must still be relevant to all men in the 1940s and today.

Tech Angle

[PPH]

Perhaps someone can come up with some seismic sensing technology that can detect underground voids. Similar to what the oil and gas people use, but optimized for shallower depths.

Communities could do a periodic survey in populated areas and give property owners some advanced notice to evacuate their property. The down side is that existing property owners won't want a pre-sale seismic survey to become common practice.

Re:Tech Angle

[Solandri]

Perhaps someone can come up with some seismic sensing technology that can detect underground voids. Similar to what the oil and gas people use, but optimized for shallower depths.

This sort of sensing usually involves setting off explosives, collecting data with seismographs placed around the area of interest, then correlating the data via tomography.

Unfortunately, because of the explosives part, I'm pretty sure anyone trying to provide this service would eventually be sued out of existence for "causing" the sinkholes.

Re:Tech Angle

[Anonymous Coward]

You can use seismic rumbler trucks as a source instead of explosives.

http://www.pgecurrents.com/2011/07/28/san-luis-obispo-county-pge-demonstrates-seismic-test-equipment-for-public/

http://www.oilandgaslawyerblog.com/2009/04/how-do-seismic-surveys-work.html

Re:Tech Angle

[PPH]

You can use seismic rumbler trucks as a source instead of explosives.

Right. And as the voids you are looking for are much shallower and involve a larger discontinuity, it probably wouldn't need a high amplitude rumble.

Nevertheless, don't overlook an opportunity to blanket Florida with demolition charges.

Re:Tech Angle

[Diamonddavej]

The technology for mapping subsurface voids has been around for decades, at least the 1960s, the most common method is Direct Current / Resistivity Surveying. An electric current is passed though the ground between four electrodes and the apparent resistivity (in Ohms/meter) of the subsurface is measured & mapped. Voids, filled water or clay or even empty space, have a completely different resistivity compared to the surrounding rock.

Modern survey instruments are automated, they use dozens of computer controlled electrodes (2 current and 2 voltage electrodes are active at any one time). On open ground, a survey covering an area football field could be carried out in a few days. Geophysicists were using Resistivity Surveying to map the sinkhole in Seffner, Florida.

However, I don't know if Florida state law quires a subsurface ground survey before homes are built, I wouldn't be surprised if lobbyists managed to keep such a law off the books (like the insurance lobbyists). Also, the home involved in this case might have been built before automated surveying became available in the 1990s, before then it was slower, more expensive, not widely used.

Engineers Conducing a Resistivity Survey"

2-DAND 3-D RESISTIVITY FOR LOCATING VOIDS BENEATH HIGHWAYS THREE CASE STUDIES"

Re:Tech Angle

[vandamme]

You can use ground penetrating radar or resistivity probes to find big voids. I've used both. The resistivity probe found 4 distinct layers of soil and rock, and the GPR went down 150feet to find mine tunnels and do a 3 dimensional image of them.

Unfortunately, the builders lobby in Florida has outlawed requirements to scan before building, I'm told.

What kind of crap house was that?!

[Anonymous Coward]

I just opened the article and instantly saw the entire house collapsed from a seriously tiny hole. (relatively speaking)
Where the actual hell are the foundations? That shit is legal? More to the point, that shit is even remotely legal on THOSE lands?

An entire FLATs underground was completely washed away in the UK during those massive floods and the only reason that flat still stood was because of the foundations.
You could see torrents of water flowing UNDER the flat and nothing happening, all the land around one half was completely gone.

So why in hell is that house collapsing from a silly little sinkhole like that? I was expecting the sinkhole to be huge or something.
As someone who luckily actually went another route instead of Architecture (market crashed so hard), it saddens me to see such a pitiful excuse of a house.
No wonder the poor guy was killed, it's like a house made by a kid. Utterly pathetic excuse for a house.

Re:What kind of crap house was that?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Everybody's a fucking know-it-all around here. You know NOTHING about the structure or the hole, yet you shoot your fool mouth off about it. Brilliant.

Re:What kind of crap house was that?!

[cpt kangarooski]

Most houses in Florida, particularly outside of the panhandle, are just concrete slabs poured on level ground. There's a bit of a trench to anchor it in, but no foundation like you're thinking of. Hardly anyone has a basement. Maybe if they live on the side of a hill, one story will be dug into the hill on one side.

This is because the ground usually doesn't freeze, it's cheaper, easier, and faster. Most of the state was developed after the war and after home air conditioners became affordable. So crappy tract housing had become the norm.

I grew up in a house like that -- it had been previously owned by the builder, who had a concrete business. Therefore there was a huge concrete patio, big driveway, and some sort of slab in the middle of the yard, which we never really figured out the purpose of. And on the inside, the floor consists of some carpet on a carpet pad on the slab. Or tile on the slab. Or wood flooring on plywood on the slab.

Areas that get a lot of water from hurricanes, however, may have houses built on columns -- you park the car below and the house starts a story above the ground.

Re:What kind of crap house was that?!

[Anonymous Coward]

I grew up in a house like that -- it had been previously owned by the builder, who had a concrete business. Therefore there was a huge concrete patio, big driveway, and some sort of slab in the middle of the yard, which we never really figured out the purpose of.

Meant for a shed perhaps? Or maybe a hot tub...oh wait, Florida, I mean Cooling Tub.

Re:What kind of crap house was that?!

[cpt kangarooski]

There was a large detached garage, so not a shed. And there was a hot tub on the patio adjacent to the house; the pad was in the middle of a lawn behind the patio, about 20-30 feet from anything.

Re:What kind of crap house was that?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Fire pit perhaps?

Re:What kind of crap house was that?!

[cpt kangarooski]

That's been the best guess, but it's no pit; just a slab on the ground. And no scorch marks or other indications that it was ever used for that as I recall.

I just think of it as the mystery square.

Re:What kind of crap house was that?!

[Mindcontrolled]

Fallout shelter. He just realized that pouring the ceiling first wouldn't lead anywhere and abandoned the project :P

Re:What kind of crap house was that?!

[dr2chase]

No basement, because you're likely to hit water within the first 10 feet of digging. That floor collapse sounds a bit dodgy even for Florida (there's supposed to be steel reinforcing that concrete), but I did get to see a lot of modern Florida homebuilding techniques when I was a kid, so it's not a complete surprise.

Re:What kind of crap house was that?!

[cpt kangarooski]

I like that, except it was built in the late 80s, when it was fairly obvious that a nuclear war with the USSR was unlikely. Plus I think those were usually built at ground level in that neck of the woods, then covered with dirt to make a mound like a barrow, and there would've been dirt; there's a pool. But I've never seen one in person.

Anyway, it's a square about 3-4 feet on a side; perhaps the blueprints for the house were originally in the wrong unit, a la spinal tap, and the slab was poured before anyone noticed.

An Acceptable Risk

[matty619]

Especially when you look at the loss of life and property caused by other natural phenomenon. If sinkholes in Florida are such a problem that we question the rationality of building homes there, then surely no one should live in Southern California where loss of life and property are several orders of magnitude higher than that caused by Florida sinkholes due to wild fires and earthquakes.

Re:An Acceptable Risk

[Trepidity]

Not to mention that, even in Florida itself, hurricanes are a much larger risk than sinkholes.

Re:An Acceptable Risk

[matty619]

Ya, its the 5 gallon bucket effect. A small child is much more likely to die in a 5 gallon bucket with a few inches of water in it than many of the scary local news stories like cell phone radiation and power lines. Its the things that kill few people, but can't me mitigated by individuals that freak people out.

Frackin' hell

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's hope the problem doesn't get worse elsewhere

Chris Christie...

[Anonymous Coward]

...was in Florida?

Frackin' hell

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's hope the problem doesn't get worse or spread elsewhere

Pump in sand?

[Archeopteryx]

Perhaps if you could identify where this was happening, it could be remediated by pumping in a slurry containing solids that would lock in place and resist leaching like coal ash and some kinds of sand?

Any civil engineers care to comment on that?

Re:Pump in sand?

[Chemisor]

Pump in coal ash and you can call it carbon sequestration.

Re:Pump in sand?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps if you could identify where this was happening, it could be remediated by pumping in a slurry containing solids that would lock in place and resist leaching like coal ash and some kinds of sand?

Any civil engineers care to comment on that?

I think the sheer scale of the holes makes this impractical.

Re:Pump in sand?

[Bearhouse]

Not a civil engineer, but the volumes required would make this a very costly solution.
Take a look at the size of a sinkhole, even the small ones are big. Would take a shitload of trucks to fill one in.
Can you see Florida Bob, or his insurance company, springing for this remedial work after - presumably - some type of currently nonexistent survey? Nope. Cheaper to move house.

Re:Pump in sand?

[Anonymous Coward]

When I started read this, I thought "pumping in slurry" meant "avoid paying for a septic tank". Sounds nasty if you every fall in...

Re:Pump in sand?

[evanbd]

Given the stuff in coal ash, I don't think I want it pumped into places in contact with groundwater that people drink.

Re:Pump in sand?

[evanbd]

Coal ash is the solid stuff left after you burn the coal. The carbon (and heavy hydrocarbons) in coal is the stuff that burns. The stuff left behind has very, very low carbon content. The carbon basically all comes out as CO2 gas.

Re:Pump in sand?

[riverat1]

No you can't. There isn't much carbon in coal ash. It's what's left over after they burn (nearly) all of the carbon out of coal.

Re:Pump in sand?

[hey!]

Well, the sinkhole in question is believed to be 100' across and 15' - 30' deep. That's about 4400 cubic yards of fill material, which is *not* lightweight. The material would be staged on or near unstable ground and the work would no doubt be hazardous. It'd be a complicated and dangerous engineering project; maybe if a sinkhole like this developed under Monticello, but we're talking about a couple of ramshackle ranch houses. It'd make more economic sense to put up a fence and let them fall into the ground.

Re:Pump in sand?

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm isn't coal ash radioactive?

Re:Pump in sand?

[Guppy]

Perhaps if you could identify where this was happening, it could be remediated by pumping in a slurry containing solids that would lock in place and resist leaching like coal ash and some kinds of sand?

It's called Grouting. There was a highway improvement project back where I used to live (in Pennsylvania), involving lots of construction over porous Limestone formations. Extensive grouting was required to stablize the ground, which apparently cost quite a bit while also delaying the project.

the insurance industry

[G3ckoG33k]

"the insurance industry successfully lobbied the state lawmakers to pass legislation in 2011 making it more difficult for homeowners to claim sinkhole damages"

Are you trying to say the insurance industry owners shouldn't be allowed to trick uneducated and become billionaires because of that? If so, say it clearer so the politicians can understand you. Some politicians are pretty thick polo players.

Re:the insurance industry

[mspohr]

The politicians are the ones who passed the laws after some friendly bribes (campaign contributions) from the insurance industry. The politicians understand the situation perfectly.

Floridian Sinkhole

[Anomalyst]

Is this a politically correct insult towards someone who behaves like an asshat?

It would pollute the ground water.

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps if you could identify where this was happening, it could be remediated by pumping in a slurry containing solids that would lock in place and resist leaching like coal ash and some kinds of sand?

It'd hit the water table. Everything is connected down there.

There was an article years ago about divers working for the USGS (IIRC) who would go down into springs and literally swim under the ground and pop out in another town or even the ocean.

Who knows what the environmental damage that could cause - don't forget, most of Florida's economy is tourism.

Oh thank goodness!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh thank goodness they passed that law making it illegal for people swallowed up in their homes by sinkholes created by tapping out all the underground water!

My stock portfolio might have been affected by the actions of the companies I invest in and that's as Un-American as Islam.

Abandon the central and southern parts of Florida?

[eriks]

I feel for the friends and family of the poor guy, and wish them the best, and I'm sure it's an impractical suggestion, and in no way is it likely to happen, but In my opinion modern humans have no business living on what is essentially a giant sand bar that supports a delicate (and slowly dying) ecosystem. Though I'm admittedly biased. I simply don't like the place. The weather is almost unlivable. It's cold in the winter and unbearably hot and humid all summer. Culturally, it's not my cup of tea either.

Draining the everglades (which is/was a beautiful and terrifying place) was one of the worst ideas ever. The CoE does some great things, but that was not one of them.

Granted Cape Cod and the islands in my home state aren't much better (ecologically speaking).

Stop living in florida.

[Anonymous Coward]

Florida is former seabed, that, well, unlike many other regions, is a few feet at any given time, from becoming seabed again.

It's eroding away relatively quickly, and as we recover from the last ice age, it will soon be seabed again in short order. There are theories that florida is up where it's at only because of isostatic stress from the glaciers that were up north, and as the land in the northern part of the north american craton starts rebounding, florida may start sinking.

Either way, I would never want to live there. People laugh about california falling into the sea, florida is actually the state that likely will, and maybe even start within our lifetimes.

What an awesome place to live!

[damn_registrars]

It is brutally intolerably - and sometimes fatally - hot for at least 3 months of the year. It gets hit by hurricanes quite nearly every year. Alligators, Crocodiles, and giant Asian Pythons attack and eat everything in sight. Nobody can afford to own property and landlords are crooked. And now the land itself is caving in .

Remind me why people choose to live there?

Re:What an awesome place to live!

[Cali Thalen]

Beats California.

Worked there for 23 years, never really very close to being able to qualify for a mortgage, even at the end with the crash, on a home within reasonable distance of work (reasonable being 90 minute commute). Maybe a condo that wasn't too big near the end of my stay, but not much of one.

Moved to FL this year, already have a largish house in a very nice neighborhood. The money I wanted to try to put down in California on a place (but couldn't qualify for the mortgage) covered closing costs and about 30% down. Not some cheap ranch shack either.

Granted, that down payment probably could have bought a nice house outright in a lot of places, but the wife is an orthopedic surgeon, so nowhere better than south Florida for someone who does knees and hips.

Re:What an awesome place to live!

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, I'll bite. Were you married for those 23 years? If so, how is it that you and your orthopedic surgeon wife were unable to afford a house? I thought $400K was pretty much a floor figure for surgeons that don't completely suck.

Re:What an awesome place to live!

[tibit]

LOL. That about sums it up. I know a couple of very good surgeons and they don't make $400k together, I don't think. Both have academic positions in addition to their regular job of doing the surgeries etc.

Re:What an awesome place to live!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think Florida is intolerably hot, you've never been to Texas, Louisiana, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, Arizona, or anywhere in the midwest. I've lived here in Florida for 30 years and it's never hit 100 degrees in that time because if it gets close to 100, it'll rain and cool it off. Giant pythons, gators or crocs (far rarer) make great boots and the only people who can't afford property are those who don't have a job. Sinkholes are nothing new, not exclusive to FL, just more common because the state is essentially a beach on top of an anthill which is on top of an underground river. There may be better places to live that Florida, but few in the US have better weather, beaches or fishing.

Teh Gayz!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't wait for the christian right to start using sinkholes as the basis for an anti gay crusade - "Sink'oles is gods's punishmint fer teh gayz!!!"

California vs Florida

[Freddybear]

When I lived in Miami we used to say that California might slide into the Pacific Ocean but Florida would disappear into it's own asshole.

Re:California vs Florida

[antdude]

"... on it is asshole"? Yeah, I am an asshole. :P

[off topic] Add geological to the long list

[Sarusa]

Of course we've known about the state's emotional and mental instability forever. Still the only state with its own Fark tag!

https://twitter.com/_FloridaMan

http://www.fark.com/topic/florida/

Yeah, it figures.

[mark_reh]

Insurance companies might have to pay some money out, so they buy the state legislature to write laws allowing them to screw the insurance purchaser.

How long will insurance companies keep getting their way? They did the same with health care. If someone is sick they don't want to insure them because they might have to actually pay out some money. The insurance industry is more evil than cell phone and cable TV companies combined.

We are stupid and deserve the government we elect. The human race is doomed to extinction before we figure out how to get off this rock.

Re:Yeah, it figures.

[Anonymous Coward]

This. I'd love to run a business where people are forced to pay me money and I get to deliver nothing in return. Good old fashioned small government American free market capitalism at work here (sarcasm intended).

Considering Florida has the worst governor in the country, which is saying a lot when one takes his peers into account, plus one of the most corrupt legislatures in the history of the US, it's expected.

Hint: never move here unless you're rich. This state is just abominable to live in if you actually believe in a representative government and real honest business and commerce.

Re:Yeah, it figures.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't like insurance, don't buy it.

Re:Yeah, it figures.

[nephilimsd]

I'm not trying to say that health insurance providers aren't greedy, parasitic bastards, but the comment about how they "[how when someone is] sick they don't want to insure them because they might have to actually pay out some money" seems a bit naive to me. This a problem with an incomplete insurance market (a subtype of asymmetric information failure) where the sick have all the incentive to want insurance, and providers have all incentive to want healthy customers. Basically, if you are allowed to buy insurance after you need it and not before, there is no incentive for any company to provide that insurance. They will obviously lose money. Insurance companies make money by floating risk across a diverse pool of people: The ones that don't have a problem right now are effectively paying for the ones that do. If every customer has a problem, no one is left paying a fair rate as the remaining healthy people have incentive to drop their insurance until they need it.

Re:Yeah, it figures.

[mark_reh]

Insurance companies maximize their own wealth by maximizing cash coming in and minimizing cash going out. They do everything they can to NOT insure people who may require a payout (identify and insure good drivers, healthy people, homes/businesses not located in flood plains, etc.) and it means doing everything they can to deny payouts to customers they have (ever tried calling a health insurance company about a claim they denied for a covered service? You get to talk to an idiot chosen for the job specifically because they are an idiot, the intention being to frustrate your attempts to get information/coverage).

The insurance industry figured out a long time ago that they can take in and keep more money by going into the lobbying business, hence the army of lawyers to lobby state and federal governments to pass laws that allow them to take more money in and pay less out in claims. Insurance company lobbyists (i.e. payouts to politicians) are the reason why we have such a crappy system of health care in the US.

Re:Yeah, it figures.

[DaveV1.0]

The submitter got it wrong. People were claiming normal settling cracks as sink hole damage. That is why the legislation was passed.

Re:Yeah, it figures.

[Anonymous Coward]

No. You are assuming a true socialistic or "co-op" insurance program here where the insurance company only tries to bring in in premiums what they need to pay out in claims and do so fairly.

Today's insurance industry is no such thing. They are greedy parasitic fucks that try to bring in as much as they possibly can in premiums and do as much as they possibly can to prevent paying out claims. TBH, I'm not sure I would put insurance companies higher than even lawyers on the list of parasitic fucks this society needs to rid itself of. Fuck you insurance companies.

As an example, I saw one of those news-magazine programs where somebody's house burned down. The "real" fire marshal ruled it as accidental. The insurance company brought in their own investigator and guess what his conclusion was. Really. You are never going to believe this. Truly, it is very surprising. That fuck ruled the fire as arson and the insurance company refused to pay.

The home-owner had to take the insurance company to court to get paid. The company ended up paying and some insider admitted that going to court and having to pay was just the cost and way of doing business since they pay out less by refusing every claim and only paying on the few that have the time, money and stomach to take it to court.

Re:Yeah, it figures.

[tompaulco]

Maybe they should buy insurance and not a health plan. Unfortunately, the government is trying to make you think health plans are insurance, so now we have a new term for what is actually supposed to be called insurance, and that term is "Major Medical". You get to participate in the insurance companies contracted rates, but you pay everything out of pocket up to a certain high deductible amount, and then the insurance pays the rest. This is the only kind of insurance that should be legal to sell. It ends up costing thousands of dollars less a year to the consumer even if they maxed out the deductible every year.

Re:Yeah, it figures.

[viking099]

I wish I had some mod points for this.

Citizens Insurance was paying out something like 6-7 times their premium income (like $180 million to $25 million) just on sinkhole claims.

If the reforms hadn't been implemented, the entire property insurance industry in Florida would have collapsed.

And all insurers in Florida are required to cover true sinkholes (now called "Catastrophic Ground Collapse"). It's just that there has to be more evidence than a few cracks in drywall/driveway to legitimize the claim.

Just Very Sad

[Frosty Piss]

It's pretty sad that calling a troll out for making offensive Jew jokes on Slashdot get's modded "flaimbait".

Re:Just Very Sad

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretending to be just a standard run-of-the mill idiot presenting no indication whatsoever about writing this stuff with a hint of tongue in cheek is quite an unambitious way to "troll". I'd go for the duck rule here.

Re:Just Very Sad

[Jmc23]

This is slashdot, don't depend on mods to have any basic reading comprehension skills. Next time, quote the line, it's too easy for the feebleminded to assume you were making that comment.

Re:Just Very Sad

[Frosty Piss]

Yeah, I saw that. I should know better than not to Preview.

Disappoint

[TeknoHog]

Came here for the obligatory goatse.

Sawed off

[Cyfun]

So you're saying we don't need Bugs Bunny's help at all?

Re:Pretty clever: Not dead yet.

[mspohr]

I plan to die quickly (and cheaply) at an old age.
Best way to do this is to stay away from doctors... kind of hard since I am a doctor but I don't, as a rule, give myself advice.

Montana

[fyngyrz]

There's a lot of empty space in Montana I hear.

Wait, what? No, no empty space here. Not any. You want Texas. It's not being used for much useful other than producing oil, cattle and ignorance (not quite certain which is the state's leading export, actually.) Get some real schools in there, teach science instead of superstition, invite immigrants to help out... you'd have an actual useful state before you knew it.

But not Montana. Please. Besides. I really don't think you'd like our -40 temps in the winter. Texas, on the other hand... perfect.

Re:Montana

[Anonymous Coward]

You are an asshole

Re:Montana

[fyngyrz]

Is that you, Rick?

Climate Change

[MouseTheLuckyDog]

It's all caused by global warming, donch ya know?

Re:Climate Change

[EmagGeek]

The rising average crustal temperature decreases the viscosity of the underlying magma, allowing plates to move more easily on top.

Perfectly sound reasoning that is as good as proof that global warming is causing increased tectonic activity. The debate was over long ago, didn't ya know?

Re:Pretty clever: Not dead yet.

[demonlapin]

Nah, in my experience doctors are the only people who can manage to keep away from doctors. (I'm one too.)

yes, Florida is terrible.

[belgo]

... if the traffic and bath salts don't kill you, the sinkholes will. Please do not consider visiting or moving here. If you're already here, save yourself by heading north, preferably taking at least two vehicles with you. I hear California is wonderful. Tell all your friends. Thank you.

As a Florida resident...

[sootman]

... this story makes me want to stay up late pouring a couple extra foundations for my house. I mean seriously: "Earth swallows man while he sleeps"?!?!? FUCK!

Maybe a simple answer

[Anonymous Coward]

If you look at the house on Google Maps (I'm sure everyone here can find the address on news sites just as easily as I can), you'll find a long-ish pond running behind it and other homes, parallel to the street. That pond looks like a classic former sinkhole, and seems to form a whole non-development area, so my guess is that the developers knew about the issues when they built there. Right between the house and next door on the street is a storm water drain, with an outlet clearly visible over the pond (try 45 deg view). I'll wager dollars to donuts that they find that a problem in that drain is the source of the sinkhole. I see lawsuits.

I'd make a "stand yor ground" joke, but it's too soon.

The trouble is... DEVELOPERS!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, technologies could be invented to make future sinkholes detectable but developers would come up with a law which would prevent testing for their presence. You see, it goes like this. A developer gets some land (swampland) which he will develop and sell at a huge profit. Then someone comes along before he develops said land and finds that a sinkhole makes the land worthless. We can't have that situation.

Answer, a law banning testing for sinkholes!

They Don't Learn

[Anonymous Coward]

I have lived in Florida for almost 60 years. Sadly the scheme in Florida has always been to encourage people to move to Florida and our water supply is suffering and thus the sink holes. The last thing we need here is a population increase. But the fools will never stop.
                    By the way the area where sink holes is the greatest concern is not swamp land. Miami and Ft. Lauderdale were built on swamp land by and large and they have no sink holes at all. The problem in south Florida is rising seas and beach erosion. Much of south Florida will probably not be viable for occupation in the near future. The economic consequences are perhaps great enough to destroy the US economy as well as the economy of several other nations. Much of the land is only about three feet above sea level and storms and tropical rains as well as strong surges or tides are already a big problem. The two counties are home to about 4 million people.

Try Again, please

[Tablizer]

Seems God got the wrong Bush

Re:Try Again, please

[bill_mcgonigle]

It's not God who opens a hell mouth to claim payment on his deals. But, yes, the other guy is fallible.

Re:Try Again, please

[Tablizer]

One story is that they are competitors. Another is that God contracts out the mean stuff to Satan.

That 2011 legislation

[DaveV1.0]

I live in Florida and have been trying to buy a house here. That 2011 legislation was caused by people claiming cracks caused by normal settling as sink hole damage. If the anonymous submitter had done any checking at all into the law, he would have found that out. So, either the anonymous submitter is either lying or ignorant.

getting even..

[Anonymous Coward]

The earth doesn't get mad about the harm man inflicts.
It gets even.

people are stupid

[cellocgw]

There have been scientific reports about sinkholes, reversal of water flow in aquifers (i.e. salt water working its way into former fresh sources), damage to the protected swamp areas, etc. in Florida for years now. But the only thing that put a damper on new housing developments was the mortgage securities crash. Just this year, a reasonably intelligent (!!) friend of mine - Steve D. if you happen to read this, sorry for outing you -- decided to buy a retirement spot in Fla. Steve, I'll miss you if you get sinkholed, but I sure won't blame such an event on anything other than a very foolish real estate decision.

Here we go again.

[Anonymous Coward]

Geologists say that human activity, particularly construction and irrigation, can trigger sinkholes by destabilizing the landscape above caverns by drawing down water tables and massing structures above them."

Or, you know, possibly it was something that was just going to happen over time and Humans are only concerned with their involvement because of the usual "aggrandizement effect".

South Wales

[welsh git]

Much of our area is limestone, with no clay or anything on top. And it RAINS a lot.

A few big sink holes have appeared on roads, and there are lots of cave systems.. My house doesn't even have foundations - it's built direct on the limestone.. I often wonder if the limestone is just a few feet thick, with a big cavern below.

Still - seems our weasly insurance companies aren't as weasly as yours!

HA!

[slick7]

The biggest sinkhole is in Washington DC, with all the corrupt and greedy CONgressMEN who just threw the American people off that fiscal cliff they were bragging about saving us from. Reduce spending now, pink slips for politicians, and pink coveralls too, like they wear in prison.

Florida is unstable

[gargleblast]

Damn right Florida is unstable. Check out these headlines. A sample:

Florida Man Slapped With Warning After Riding Dying Sperm Whale
Florida Man Traps Ex-Girlfriend's Mother Into A Fold-Out Couch
Police Find Cocaine In Florida Man's Prosthetic Leg

Win-Win!

[ThatsNotPudding]

What's scary is they used to be rare events but they are getting more common so something has changed.

Now we have a perfect place to pump all our salty, chemically-laced fracking waste water! Perfect!

florida and real estate

[Anonymous Coward]

That was an excellent post about sinkholes in Florida. Why continue to build upon this fragile soil? It appears that the real estate lobby is so powerful that they are willing to risk the lives of the people who buy these houses. And, the home buyer does not do the necessary research to insure that the home sits on stable soil. Why does not Florida mandate that a drilling into the ground extend down to 40 feet to see if the limestone is very porous? Surely, the powerful real estate lobby would block this. Perhaps someone will wake up. A man died awake in his bed screaming for help...

Conspiracy Theory

[Anonymous Coward]

Since no one has posted any conspiracy theory stuff on this post yet I thought I would get it started. The underground has secret underground bases and tunnels. This is probably a result of that.

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=155409.0