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Florida Sinkhole Highlights State's Geologic Instability
An anonymous reader writes "Last Thursday night, a sinkhole took the life of a man (TV news video, with ad) while he slept in his home in Seffner FL, near Tampa. While human fatalies are rare, sinkholes are so common in Florida that the insurance industry successfully lobbied the state lawmakers to pass legislation in 2011 making it more difficult for homeowners to claim sinkhole damages. The bedrock in Florida is limestone, a weakly soluble mineral formed from calcified deposits of sea creatures tens of millions of years ago. Above the limestone is a clay layer called the Hawthorn Formation which shields the limestone from ground water; and above the clay is sand. However, the protective clay layer is thin or nonexistent in some areas of Florida, particularly in the middle part of the state near the Gulf coast, where caves and sinkholes are common. Geologists say that human activity, particularly construction and irrigation, can trigger sinkholes by destabilizing the landscape above caverns by drawing down water tables and massing structures above them."
it was a great idea to start building homes on swamp land?
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
The state's Department of Environmental Protection has a nice collection of sinkhole resources, including a database of incidents, and a poster with a map.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
What's the tech angle to this story? It's a sinkhole. Ground cover collapse is not a Slashdot story.
Oh, I don't know.. Geology? Engineering? Perhaps involving technology to detect and prevent these things?
Something like this perhaps?
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Let's pump massive amounts of water out of the aquafilter. What could possibility go wrong? (Living in West Central Florida on the edge of a well field).
The state runs the insurance company that most people in Florida have to use now, called Citizens. It wasn't a "problem" until the state had to start paying out, before when it was just private insurance companies this wasn't as big of an issue.
Smart of the insurance industry to make themselves useless. Now, if they never fork out, why should I have an insurance?
Because the bank requires that you pay for insurance as part of the mortgage.
Because the state requires that you pay for insurance to drive legally.
The insurances companies have been tremendously smart. Securing mandates that you pay more and more for their products, acquiring guarantees of profits, all while reducing their liability and payouts.
Perhaps someone can come up with some seismic sensing technology that can detect underground voids. Similar to what the oil and gas people use, but optimized for shallower depths.
Communities could do a periodic survey in populated areas and give property owners some advanced notice to evacuate their property. The down side is that existing property owners won't want a pre-sale seismic survey to become common practice.
Have gnu, will travel.
Some tech input will show up regardless of what's in TFS/A. General science articles are always welcome for me at any rate. Regarding this topic, here's a good photo gallery: Notable sinkholes from around the globe.
Traditional insurance assumes a payout of around 1% of people filing claims per year. The idea is you pay for decades and file one huge claim in that time that would bankrupt you otherwise
Only health insurance is structured for you to use as much or more of what you pay in premiums
Especially when you look at the loss of life and property caused by other natural phenomenon. If sinkholes in Florida are such a problem that we question the rationality of building homes there, then surely no one should live in Southern California where loss of life and property are several orders of magnitude higher than that caused by Florida sinkholes due to wild fires and earthquakes.
Perhaps if you could identify where this was happening, it could be remediated by pumping in a slurry containing solids that would lock in place and resist leaching like coal ash and some kinds of sand?
Any civil engineers care to comment on that?
Dog is my co-pilot.
"the insurance industry successfully lobbied the state lawmakers to pass legislation in 2011 making it more difficult for homeowners to claim sinkhole damages"
Are you trying to say the insurance industry owners shouldn't be allowed to trick uneducated and become billionaires because of that? If so, say it clearer so the politicians can understand you. Some politicians are pretty thick polo players.
This is just a shit happens thing.
No, it isn't
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Perhaps if you could identify where this was happening, it could be remediated by pumping in a slurry containing solids that would lock in place and resist leaching like coal ash and some kinds of sand?
It'd hit the water table. Everything is connected down there.
There was an article years ago about divers working for the USGS (IIRC) who would go down into springs and literally swim under the ground and pop out in another town or even the ocean.
Who knows what the environmental damage that could cause - don't forget, most of Florida's economy is tourism.
Most of the ways you have to set aside the large lump of cash cost more than the minimum insurance, as the state, not you, gets the interest on it, and you can't do anything else with it. That, and anyone with enough cash to give away to remove the insurance requirement would probably prefer insurance with a nice high limit.
Learn to love Alaska
Because the state requires that you pay for insurance to drive legally.
Only if you don't have the money to cover the minimum liability. If you do have money, as long as it is set aside in one of couple ways so it can't disappear before needed, you don't need insurance to drive.
Are you speaking just of Florida? Because it's different in every state. Here in Georgia you have to have liability coverage at minimum to legally operate a vehicle, even if you have thousands in a savings account named "just in case I'm a bad driver". There was a time when you didn't have to have insurance in Alabama, but a few years ago they mandated minimum liability insurance coverage as well.
I'm normally not keen on the government telling us how to live our lives, but having mandatory liability coverage is a no-brainer for the vast majority of poor and middle-class citizens who simply can't be assumed to be responsible enough to have a personal insurance savings plan, and can't afford a huge payout if they do cause an accident. I'd rather pay $50/month to insure that I won't be sued and bankrupted because I made a mistake driving, than bank that money and hope that I've saved up enough to fight said lawsuit.
On the other side of the coin, I'd much rather the person who hits me has liability coverage, so their insurance company takes care of me instead of leaving me to chase after their assets in court. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if states without mandatory liability coverage have more hit-and-run accidents than other states.
I feel for the friends and family of the poor guy, and wish them the best, and I'm sure it's an impractical suggestion, and in no way is it likely to happen, but In my opinion modern humans have no business living on what is essentially a giant sand bar that supports a delicate (and slowly dying) ecosystem. Though I'm admittedly biased. I simply don't like the place. The weather is almost unlivable. It's cold in the winter and unbearably hot and humid all summer. Culturally, it's not my cup of tea either.
Draining the everglades (which is/was a beautiful and terrifying place) was one of the worst ideas ever. The CoE does some great things, but that was not one of them.
Granted Cape Cod and the islands in my home state aren't much better (ecologically speaking).
Shit happens. Those that don't do anything deserve their lot in filth. Others collect it for sanitary reasons. Still others notice that the big piles of crap start to heat up. The eventually figure out about composting and manure being excellent fertilizers. Here is a blog post that actually looks at regional zones and architecture and see what fits and makes sense where. http://urbanlabglobalcities.blogspot.ru/2012/05/from-hard-to-soft-how-new-approach-on.html
Beware of those who profit off the docile and persecute the unbelievers.
Florida is former seabed, that, well, unlike many other regions, is a few feet at any given time, from becoming seabed again.
It's eroding away relatively quickly, and as we recover from the last ice age, it will soon be seabed again in short order. There are theories that florida is up where it's at only because of isostatic stress from the glaciers that were up north, and as the land in the northern part of the north american craton starts rebounding, florida may start sinking.
Either way, I would never want to live there. People laugh about california falling into the sea, florida is actually the state that likely will, and maybe even start within our lifetimes.
Most houses in Florida, particularly outside of the panhandle, are just concrete slabs poured on level ground. There's a bit of a trench to anchor it in, but no foundation like you're thinking of. Hardly anyone has a basement. Maybe if they live on the side of a hill, one story will be dug into the hill on one side.
This is because the ground usually doesn't freeze, it's cheaper, easier, and faster. Most of the state was developed after the war and after home air conditioners became affordable. So crappy tract housing had become the norm.
I grew up in a house like that -- it had been previously owned by the builder, who had a concrete business. Therefore there was a huge concrete patio, big driveway, and some sort of slab in the middle of the yard, which we never really figured out the purpose of. And on the inside, the floor consists of some carpet on a carpet pad on the slab. Or tile on the slab. Or wood flooring on plywood on the slab.
Areas that get a lot of water from hurricanes, however, may have houses built on columns -- you park the car below and the house starts a story above the ground.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Something like this perhaps?
. . . I was thinking /dev/null . . . how an improper implementation could cause OS instability . . .
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
I pay more for health insurance in one year than the total of my entire life's expenses for health services (and I am old).
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
When I lived in Miami we used to say that California might slide into the Pacific Ocean but Florida would disappear into it's own asshole.
Of course we've known about the state's emotional and mental instability forever. Still the only state with its own Fark tag!
https://twitter.com/_FloridaMan
http://www.fark.com/topic/florida/
Insurance companies might have to pay some money out, so they buy the state legislature to write laws allowing them to screw the insurance purchaser.
How long will insurance companies keep getting their way? They did the same with health care. If someone is sick they don't want to insure them because they might have to actually pay out some money. The insurance industry is more evil than cell phone and cable TV companies combined.
We are stupid and deserve the government we elect. The human race is doomed to extinction before we figure out how to get off this rock.
It's pretty sad that calling a troll out for making offensive Jew jokes on Slashdot get's modded "flaimbait".
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Emphasis added.
First of all - fuck you.
Secondly - fuck you some more.
If you're poor, how the fuck are you supposed to put money aside for a personal insurance savings plan? Especially in the US, where people are likely to get sued for anything and the cost of any kind of medical assistance is likely to be ruinous if not for insurance.
Seriously - you even pointed it out yourself, right after you made your quite frankly extremely insulting comment!can't be assumed to be responsible
Limestone is technology!
"Perhaps involving technology to detect and prevent these things?"
Never happen when money is on the line. I remember, back in Pennsylvania, the creekbeds always had a good stretch of uninhabited land around them (usually treated an unofficial parkspace).
One year someone bought up some of that land and built a bunch of brand new houses right up against the creek... ...and people (presumably from out of state) bought them. Then the next big rains came, and the creeks flooded, and the houses were all ruined.
I blame the exploitative bastards who shoved those homes in where 250+ years of experience said no homes should be.
Came here for the obligatory goatse.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
Given the current political bent of the average Slashdotter today, I suppose the above post will be modded "insightful".
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
So you're saying we don't need Bugs Bunny's help at all?
In Soviet Russia, dot slashes YOU!
Y'know, you can claim to be any religion you like, but just claiming something doesn't automatically make it true. Wolves in sheep's clothing, etc.
You're not dead yet, so it's a bit early to be so confident.
There was a large detached garage, so not a shed. And there was a hot tub on the patio adjacent to the house; the pad was in the middle of a lawn behind the patio, about 20-30 feet from anything.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
I plan to die quickly (and cheaply) at an old age.
Best way to do this is to stay away from doctors... kind of hard since I am a doctor but I don't, as a rule, give myself advice.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
Wait, what? No, no empty space here. Not any. You want Texas. It's not being used for much useful other than producing oil, cattle and ignorance (not quite certain which is the state's leading export, actually.) Get some real schools in there, teach science instead of superstition, invite immigrants to help out... you'd have an actual useful state before you knew it.
But not Montana. Please. Besides. I really don't think you'd like our -40 temps in the winter. Texas, on the other hand... perfect.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
It's all caused by global warming, donch ya know?
Nah, in my experience doctors are the only people who can manage to keep away from doctors. (I'm one too.)
... if the traffic and bath salts don't kill you, the sinkholes will. Please do not consider visiting or moving here. If you're already here, save yourself by heading north, preferably taking at least two vehicles with you. I hear California is wonderful. Tell all your friends. Thank you.
That's been the best guess, but it's no pit; just a slab on the ground. And no scorch marks or other indications that it was ever used for that as I recall.
I just think of it as the mystery square.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Yeah, well, if you live in Florida, don't keep that cash under a mattress.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
... this story makes me want to stay up late pouring a couple extra foundations for my house. I mean seriously: "Earth swallows man while he sleeps"?!?!? FUCK!
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Beats California.
Worked there for 23 years, never really very close to being able to qualify for a mortgage, even at the end with the crash, on a home within reasonable distance of work (reasonable being 90 minute commute). Maybe a condo that wasn't too big near the end of my stay, but not much of one.
Moved to FL this year, already have a largish house in a very nice neighborhood. The money I wanted to try to put down in California on a place (but couldn't qualify for the mortgage) covered closing costs and about 30% down. Not some cheap ranch shack either.
Granted, that down payment probably could have bought a nice house outright in a lot of places, but the wife is an orthopedic surgeon, so nowhere better than south Florida for someone who does knees and hips.
Chaos, panic, disorder...my work here is done.
Underground water management?
Above ground water management for mapped out sensitive areas?
Dimwit.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Fallout shelter. He just realized that pouring the ceiling first wouldn't lead anywhere and abandoned the project :P
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
Seems God got the wrong Bush
Table-ized A.I.
In Germany (and Europe) certain types of insurances are mandatory if you have a house. As everbody has one the rates are very low. On top of that you MAY insure against storm or whatever damage yourself if you'd like to.
We believe to be this to be a good thing.
The problem with the way self-insurance works is that it is only feasible for the very wealthy, and those are the types who can afford to shop around and get a much better rate than us peons. So self-insurance is completely off the table for pretty much anyone who makes less than $100k per year.
I live in Florida and have been trying to buy a house here. That 2011 legislation was caused by people claiming cracks caused by normal settling as sink hole damage. If the anonymous submitter had done any checking at all into the law, he would have found that out. So, either the anonymous submitter is either lying or ignorant.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
No basement, because you're likely to hit water within the first 10 feet of digging. That floor collapse sounds a bit dodgy even for Florida (there's supposed to be steel reinforcing that concrete), but I did get to see a lot of modern Florida homebuilding techniques when I was a kid, so it's not a complete surprise.
There have been scientific reports about sinkholes, reversal of water flow in aquifers (i.e. salt water working its way into former fresh sources), damage to the protected swamp areas, etc. in Florida for years now. But the only thing that put a damper on new housing developments was the mortgage securities crash. Just this year, a reasonably intelligent (!!) friend of mine - Steve D. if you happen to read this, sorry for outing you -- decided to buy a retirement spot in Fla. Steve, I'll miss you if you get sinkholed, but I sure won't blame such an event on anything other than a very foolish real estate decision.
https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
I pay more for health insurance in one year than the total of my entire life's expenses for health services (and I am old).
So now we know that:
1) you're a doctor
2) you've been lucky enough not to suffer significant either organic or physical injury
3) When it comes to statistics you're a fucking moron.
FWIW, I'm not an MD but have both friends and family members who are. I don't know any of them who would make as foolish a statement about insurance as you did here.
https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
I like that, except it was built in the late 80s, when it was fairly obvious that a nuclear war with the USSR was unlikely. Plus I think those were usually built at ground level in that neck of the woods, then covered with dirt to make a mound like a barrow, and there would've been dirt; there's a pool. But I've never seen one in person.
Anyway, it's a square about 3-4 feet on a side; perhaps the blueprints for the house were originally in the wrong unit, a la spinal tap, and the slab was poured before anyone noticed.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Fairly rude comment but I'll respond.
I spoke only about my personal experience, not statistics.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
Ok, so you choose to deny your own ignorance? Did you ever so much as open a copy of NEJM in your life? "The plural of anecdote is not data." If that's not clear enough for you: your personal experience is 100% irrelevant, and you do yourself and the public a disservice by posting as though it were informative or indicative of any suggested action.
https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
Much of our area is limestone, with no clay or anything on top. And it RAINS a lot.
A few big sink holes have appeared on roads, and there are lots of cave systems.. My house doesn't even have foundations - it's built direct on the limestone.. I often wonder if the limestone is just a few feet thick, with a big cavern below.
Still - seems our weasly insurance companies aren't as weasly as yours!
Sig out of date
Smart of the insurance industry to make themselves useless. Now, if they never fork out, why should I have an insurance?
Because the bank requires that you pay for insurance as part of the mortgage.
Because the state requires that you pay for insurance to drive legally.
The insurances companies have been tremendously smart. Securing mandates that you pay more and more for their products, acquiring guarantees of profits, all while reducing their liability and payouts.
God help us if they ever make health insurance required.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Traditional insurance assumes a payout of around 1% of people filing claims per year. The idea is you pay for decades and file one huge claim in that time that would bankrupt you otherwise
Only health insurance is structured for you to use as much or more of what you pay in premiums
Health Insurance works exactly like other insurance. The problem is that hardly anybody actually has health insurance, and the current administration is trying to get rid of health insurance in favor of health PLANS.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
If you're poor, how the fuck are you supposed to put money aside for a personal insurance savings plan?
Well, if you can afford to pay insurance including the insurance company's profit margin, then you should be able to afford to put the money aside yourself.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
I'm normally not keen on the government telling us how to live our lives, but having mandatory liability coverage is a no-brainer for the vast majority of poor and middle-class citizens who simply can't be assumed to be responsible enough to have a personal insurance savings plan, and can't afford a huge payout if they do cause an accident. I'd rather pay $50/month to insure that I won't be sued and bankrupted because I made a mistake driving, than bank that money and hope that I've saved up enough to fight said lawsuit.
What's really intriguing is how insurance skyrocketed when they made it mandatory that everyone had it, when in effect you would assume that the pool got bigger and so costs should go down. Of course, making something legally required will absolutely ALWAYS result in higher prices, because what are you going to do, NOT buy it? And go to jail instead?
Even more interesting is how you also have to pay uninsured motorists coverage, even though insurance coverage is mandatory. Because the type of people that run into other people usually don't have insurance, and for some reason, even though they are saving thousands of dollars a year by not having insurance, they still can't afford to fix your car when they run into it.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
You're being rude to a person for just making a passing remark. There was nothing wrong with his comment. And while anecdotal information is not data, it can be interesting or amusing. His comment is also worthwhile of pointing out the insurance is a lotto. You may "win big" (get a lot more out than you put in), or you may "lose" (get a lot less out than you put in). This is every form of insurance. And they are carefully formulated that the insurance company MUST win in the long haul or they won't stay in business. The smarter insurance companies carefully maintain 5-10% profit margin. Some of them have been around for centuries. It's a steady, if boring, industry.
Both NEJM and JAMA have less hardcore medicine in them now, and a LOT more fluff. More politics than even a decade ago. To overstate the matter in a humorous way, I suspect NEJM will be the Cosmo of medical journals within another X years.
The biggest sinkhole is in Washington DC, with all the corrupt and greedy CONgressMEN who just threw the American people off that fiscal cliff they were bragging about saving us from. Reduce spending now, pink slips for politicians, and pink coveralls too, like they wear in prison.
The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
Damn right Florida is unstable. Check out these headlines. A sample:
Florida Man Slapped With Warning After Riding Dying Sperm Whale
Florida Man Traps Ex-Girlfriend's Mother Into A Fold-Out Couch
Police Find Cocaine In Florida Man's Prosthetic Leg
LOL. That about sums it up. I know a couple of very good surgeons and they don't make $400k together, I don't think. Both have academic positions in addition to their regular job of doing the surgeries etc.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Now we have a perfect place to pump all our salty, chemically-laced fracking waste water! Perfect!