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Boston Replacing Microsoft Exchange With Google Apps
netbuzz writes "The city of Boston, which employs 20,000 people, has become the latest large organization to switch from Microsoft Exchange to Google Apps. The city estimates that the move will save it $280,000 a year. Microsoft's reaction? 'We believe the citizens of Boston deserve cloud productivity tools that protect their security and privacy. Google's investments in these areas are inadequate, and they lack the proper protections most organizations require.' More and more customers aren't buying that FUD."
Hopefully they'll be more satisfied than Los Angeles was (PDF).
Seems like a pattern. Go google then go microsoft.
What they should have said was, "We believe the citizens of Boston deserve the productivity gains that come from the ability to wildcard search through emails."
Google apps aren't really that powerful, but then I've never considered any of Microsoft's office products to really be professional tools. Even in college when I wanted to produce papers I'd use some laTeX or DITA editor. Word, Excel and the rest always felt amateurish. If you're going to use poor amateurish WYSIWYG tools you might as well use the free ones.
There is no memory shortage. yes I have heard of XFCE. Go away.
Still sounds pretty valid to me.
Organizations get pretty desperate to cut costs but when they do things like this they end up spending WAY more, both in time and in money.
Get the Facts guys...
I suspect that number is wildly conservative. That's crazy, when you consider the costs associated with:
* Multiple FT "Exchange Admins"
* Needing people on-staff who actually understand email
* If they were using something like Forefront and/or additional spam services as well (additional $$$)
* Dozens of servers they no longer need to maintain maintain and replace
* Tens of terabytes of fast, redundant storage they no longer need to keep on-premises
Due to the cost of such a large migration (will they be migrating existing mail, I wonder, or just keeping it on a network-mapped share for archival access?) I have to wonder how long this will take.
I'd have thought the per-year savings would be closer to a million than a quarter mil, personally.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
The link that suggests that Los Angeles was unhappy with their switch to Google does not, in fact, say that. The link is to a letter of a consumer group bitching to LA about their switch to Google. Given, by all accounts, things did not go smoothly, but maybe a better link would be this?
I do think that office 365 is a very nice response to cloud office suites but unless there is still a problem since that 2011 letter about the LA contract I don't know how they will break into that market. Google is a name that most IT people think of when they think of cloud processing suites. We started using 365 about 6-8 months ago and it works fantastically in my opinion. I also do know that other people have gone with google though because it's a big name and it does what it says it does. As far as I know there haven't been any complaints about google.
Does anyone know what happened between google and the city of L.A. after this was released? I hadn't heard about it. I would be interested to know what the security issues they had were and if they were able to be resolved. This letter is considerably old in terms of technology advancements.
I'm curious are their client machines windows boxes? Are they then using active directory and what kind of file servers are they using?
Until Google decides to pull the plug. Beware!
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Meanwhile, in delicious irony, Google Docs and Drive are down and inaccessible.
"Google Drive documents list goes empty for users "
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57583952-93/google-drive-documents-list-goes-empty-for-users/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=title&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=statusnet
https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=google%20drive&src=typd
Really? :hangs head:
That's some pretty bizarre behavior, considering, at least on my personal Google account, I've been on GMail and Google Docs on my desktop, notebook, iPhone and Nexus 7 all at the same bloody time without any issue.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Maybe Boston should worry about saving their city instead of saving a paltry quarter million dollars on a stupid exchange system.
Because their email system caused or allowed the bombings?
If we used the "why are we doing X when we have not cured cancer / stopped war / my favorite issue" argument for everything... then all of humankind's effort would be placed into a single thing... leaving us without food, housing, clothing or electricity.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
I'm pretty sure hundreds of millions of users are logged into Gmail on a web interface while also using their Android phones, and they don't have all their email accounts locked.
I smell a bullshit astroturfer.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
Why do I care what investments anyone is making in cloud security if I buy Exchange and run it on my own local email server? In that case I would only care about what investments my own company is making in security, not what Microsoft or Google are doing.
In this scenario, there'd be no shared calendering, no contact management, and no remote web access (and those are just the items in Exchange that *I* use). Who knows what other functionality would be missing if people listened to this advice...
bork bork bork!
It's interesting to see the kind of convoluted side bar going on with LA. While the TFA pointed out Boston is going to use Google Apps, LA seems to be tied up in CSC drudgery. I can't understand how or why it would be so hard to do this kind of project, I mean I do have experience in this area so it doesn't seem so damn complex. Sure, lots of mailboxes, security requirements but that's done day in and day out. Oh wait, CSC is the sub here LOL, never mind.
Groupwise and CSC in the same project? ... Doomed!
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
The difficulty was that the FBI changed the rules after the contract was signed between the City & Google. these rule changes made it virtually impossible for Google to meet the FBI security requirements that were part of the contract. This rule change was not envisioned by either side at the outset.
http://breakinggov.com/2011/12/19/los-angeles-ends-google-apps-for-lapd-decision-bigger-than-you/
I believe the estimated savings are very conservative. Still, the summary is also correct in that Google doesn't appear to have appropriate protections for sensitive government data.
MA has requirements for transmission and storage of personal information ... of course the government is NOT required to follow those standards.
Migrating the data is non-trivial for that number of people.
I bet they will retain some MS-Exchange infrastructure for "critical employee use too."
Of course, I'd swap out both google and microsoft solutions for Zimbra, but that is a different article.
Making a ridiculous statement that anyone knows is patently false is the reason I'm calling bullshit.
Again, anyone with any smart phone can test this theory that logging into Gmail on your computer and mobile device at the same time does not lock your account.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
Why would you not care what microsoft are doing? Would you not care if they decided to stop producing security updates for exchange? Being stuck with a closed source proprietary product that's no longer being updated is not a good situation to be in.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Actually, according to the article you supplied a link for, the sticking point that Google failed upon was part of the original requirements. There were changes to some of the FBI's requirements after the signing in 2009, but the changes were not those that Google has failed to deliver upon.
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So run zarafa alongside postfix on your debian/rhel/postfix server... It provides all the features you mention.
Ofcourse, who's to say the users actually want or need any such features? Many only ever use email, and exchange/outlook is about the worst combination available for a pure mail server.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
$14
Seriously, we're talking about Boston, Massachusetts here. Get Jack on the horn and activate Citizens Against Government Waste. That'll fix those pesky Googlers!
Uh booking meetings in a calendar is ~50% of the average corporate managers daily activity. The other 50% is attending said meetings.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
The OP was addressing cloud security. If a company runs an internal email server, it doesn't care what Microsoft or Google do with cloud security, since it's not using their cloud services. Securing its email system falls pretty much on the company, not the cloud provider. A part of that security is the security of the software itself, so of course I would still want Exchange security updates, but other than that, I don't give a crap how good the security of those cloud services are. I only care how good my own company's network security is.
Also, I fail to see how being stuck with a closed source proprietary product is any worse than being stuck with a software-as-a-service provider.
And we all also know how hard it is to get any support from Google. We all also know that Google Apps is a bit different that personal GMail accounts. And we also all know how to use Google search to find numerous examples of people complaining of the same problem. Here is one of the top results (telling as it is, none of which are from Google support): Google locked a account without notifying me and this is my reply to tech suppor
I don't give a fuck about Boston anymore. Closing down the city like that, an treating people like shit. Fuck you!
I work for NOAA IT and the entire organization migrated to Google in December 2011. The hardest part of the migration was training users how to use the Google products, even though they work similarly to any other email, calendar, contacts, online document sharing solution out there.
After a year and a half using Google, I have to say I'm pretty happy with their services. Service hiccups are fixed quickly and rarely do they affect all users.
I find the apps to be less mature than MSOffice apps, so occasionally I would edit a document in excel, then import it back to Google, but that's only necessary for rather advanced functionality, or massive amounts of copy-paste that chokes the browser interface.
At the time of the switchover, I was told that of all the cloud storage providers out there in the world, only Google was FIPS-compliant and therefore the only choice for cloud storage for the federal government.
Now I just wish they would whitelist Picasa so we can share photos easily...
You're right that a lot of people in corporations will only ever use email, however you will find that many more will also use the calendar features as well as all the other multitude of functionality supported by Exchange & Outlook. And when you have many people needing this functionality, it doesn't make sense to support multiple configurations to support both classes of users.
For many businesses, hiring competent Exchange admins is far easier than hiring multiple admins who specialise in Zarafa & Postfix (more than one specialist will naturally be required for absence cover, so the common belief that one Linux admin can replace multiple Windows admins isn't necessarily true in reality).
Then you have the additional challenge of IT Helpdesk support for users. The majority of outsourced helpdesks will be trained in Exchange/Outlook setups, as will most applicants for in-house support roles. What is the additional cost involved in training helpdesk workers in setting up, troubleshooting and supporting the Zafara Outlook connector and plugins?
Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
Thunderbird with the Lightning plugin both connect to gmail calendar and email and work just as much as you'd expect from Outlook. I don't notice any significant difference, even though I generally use both from my phone nowadays.
Only you don't get the social-networking integration and cloud storage hell that Outlook 2013 wants you to have, and you can see tomorrow's meetings in your todo list. Crazily enough, the gmail option is a lot better than the exchange one from v2013 onwards. Just you wait and see when you get the Outlook 'upgrade'
As for admin - you get to outsource that to Google, for free. As long as you have internet (and frankly, if the internet goes down at your offices, people will either sit there not knowing what to do with themselves, or go to the pub anyway)
I am employed by Burson Masteller? Good to know. When may I expect a check? Anyway, congratulation on a fantastic conspiracy theory. I find it very amusing :)
More and more customers aren't buying that FUD.
But then the summary goes on to explain that another company re-neg'd on this deal... indicating it's not all FUD?
I don't care about gdocs or office, but how could say it's FUD, when LA has switched back to office because of actual - documented - problems?
#OfficeCausedBostonBombings
Obviously Google isn't the answer when you work for Microsoft
I have used Google Docs products for the last 3-4 years in various ways and I can say this: they suck.
Try to create a spreadsheet with a moderate number of rows and you're toasted, specially if you use any kind of formula.
BTW, everything done using the super Google Chrome browser so there would be no complaints.
none
Oh. A chair joke. How original.
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
Don't know what Exchange offers, but it's easy to share calendars (dunno if you can make a calendar private and only allow a group of people to view it, without manually adding the people one by one, but yeah), for people to view others' calendars, and to find 'free time for all'.
YOU! Start running ballistic calculations for my transcontinental chair! NOW!"
Don't worry as long as they use Microsoft software!
is a nominal 10 bucks a year
wow
for all the head ached, and very, very inferior GUI and user experinece of Gmail, not to mention the security issues, and the politics of having Gov't email running thru a service that looks at mail, they are saving 10 bucks a month
what is the psychology that leads people to dis word, a perfectly fine program ?
Sure, it has idiosyncrasys, but show me a program that doesn't
Sure, it has bugs and fails, but show me complex, or even simple, program that doesn't
I write 10-20 page documents with Auto table of contents, auto table of figures, lots of pasted tiffs, etc and a lot fo custom paragraph level formatting
Works for me, ymmv
(the biggest problem is the inability to group textbox and tiff without a frame)
Yet these same people assert that excel is "pro grade" wtf ?
havn't you guys heard of the London Whale ?
Han't you read of reinhardt and rogoff ?
of the Statistics profs who have for years been publishing papers showing that excel returns incorrect values for std statistical functions ?
mod up a lot
esp the last point - the idea of someone who doesn't use a computer telling people what email to use is bizarre
Having had a business unit decide they didn't want to pay for their own infrastructure and attempt to use google apps, and then migrate back to their own infrastructure, all I can say is that unless your requirements are very basic, its a non-starter.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
You're still missing the bandwidth.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
In my experience, having seen a business unit within our group attempt to use google apps and fail miserably and spend the money again on re-buying their own infrastructure I suspect they will be back within 6-12 months.
I know this isn't what the slashdot crowd want to hear, and I'm sorry... but Google apps is crap. The functionality just is not there. If you want to get off microsoft there are plenty of options - for a business who does anything more than the most basic of email or spreadsheets, Google apps simply isn't an alternative.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Non-TLS email is the norm. If you want your email to be secure, then encrypt it.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
THANK YOU for adding clarity to what was otherwise looking awfully astroturfy!
There is nothing wrong with yr Internet. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling the transmission - NSA
Like Munich?
http://www.h-online.com/open/features/Comment-OpenOffice-s-Tale-of-Two-Cities-1760502.html
Actually it's quite easy. Paid users get a Phone number and email to call, or they can contact the re-seller who can open a case for them. Google use both email and phone to provide support.
The terms are clearly laid out to users of the free version. Community support is available via the admin help forums. Google has staff there that can escalate issues that cannot be fixed by the user. If you want full support you need to sign up to the paid version.
Clearly Google don't lock accounts without reason. They have a few automated systems that check for ToS breaches and suspicious activity outside normal/typical usage. They're might be a few isolated cases, but the vast majority that say they're account was block for no reason, it turns out it was locked due to spamming/password compromised/ inappropriate material (CP). Of course don't expect the article to mention a follow-up to say the president did actually have inappropriate material. Where wouldthat leave the story and errrr....his job.
Area51 - We are watching...
It can be more challenging to move to Google Apps if you want only to migrate a sub section of your business. This rule applies to many other products to.
The Office Apps side of GA is much weaker than native MS Apps, but the email and other components shits all over MS and other offerings. That said there's no reason why users of GA can't continue to use MS Office as well.
Area51 - We are watching...
This was an entire company. The only relationship we have with them is that we own a controlling share.
The issue they have is that their managing director is an engineer who thinks he knows better than a combined 60 years of IT and networking experience, and thought he could do a better job by jumping on board with the cloud.
He has been proven to be incorrect.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Why? What was it that went so bad?
GA is very popular. Saying it's crap doesn't really align with the experiences with the few million businesses using it right now. I guess it must be specific requirement that couldn't be met.
Area51 - We are watching...
Also, I fail to see how being stuck with a closed source proprietary product is any worse than being stuck with a software-as-a-service provider.
Because while the former can be abandoned and stuck without security updates or an easy migration route, the latter being an ongoing contract (assuming someone remotely competent negotiated the contract) will have ongoing support for as long as the service is being paid for.
Look at all the apps out there which are locking companies in to old cruft like ie6... Requiring that a service be compatible with current clients should be part of the contract for any service being bought.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Yes but it gets them out of the way of the actual work being done.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
Next time someone on Slashdot complains that Microsoft updates the Exchange and AD suite every couple years for supposedly "no good reason" and expects people to pay for it, I'm going to point them to your post and have you defend MS from a security and maintenance standpoint, okay? Also, I'm pretty sure MS offers paid support contracts exactly like what you describe.
Also, your argument is a total strawman. We're talking about Exchange, the best and best-supported non-cloud email service in the last 15 years. If that ever changes, you might have a point, but it doesn't right now and hasn't for the entirety of this "cloud revolution." You can't throw out generic "the cloud is better" arguments that might apply to some random crap software and hope they stick to something like Exchange and AD.
This is not for home users, it's for corporate environments. You've obviously never managed one (successfully) if you're asking things like "why should people in finance NOT BE ABLE to run a debugger".
Windows can map your "home" directory to a network share just as easily as linux can. That had nothing to do with what I said about user control.
How does DHCP control where your home network share is, and auto-change it when you move offices permanently? If you're in Dallas, and move to LA, you'd want your default network storage server moved to one in LA.
If accounting buys 3 new computers, with linux how do you install all of the software that accounting needs? In a windows network you simply add those machines to a group, and next reboot the entire list of software attached to that group gets auto-installed.
If you don't want people in HR to be able to log onto your web servers, while still using 100% network based logins and not local accounts, how do you manage that in a large way (hundreds/thousands of servers) in linux?
I know how to do this in Linux, and it is not as easy as in Windows. As I said, it requires custom work that is not standardised and relies on ad-hoc techniques.