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Nicaragua Gives Chinese Firm Contract To Build Alternative To Panama Canal
McGruber writes with this news from late last week: "The Guardian is reporting that Nicaragua has awarded a Chinese company a 100-year concession to build an alternative to the Panama Canal, in a step that looks set to have profound geopolitical ramifications. The new route will be a higher-capacity alternative to the 99-year-old Panama Canal, which is currently being widened at the cost of $5.2bn. Last year, the Nicaraguan government noted that the new canal should be able to allow passage for mega-container ships with a dead weight of up to 250,000 tonnes. This is more than double the size of the vessels that will be able to pass through the Panama Canal after its expansion, it said."
So who's going to go ballistic over the loss of a monopoly?
The story is short on details, the Spanish language op ed referred to in TFA indicates the canal would run through Lake Nicaragua. This route has been considered since before the US-dug canal through Panama. I could potentially be a sea-level canal, which would be a major plus, but which would radically alter the Lake. Either way, it'd be a big deal for shipping and save thousands of miles and tons of fuel for ships bigger than whatever they're calling the latest "Panamax." It seems to me the ports of New Orleans and Mobile in the US would benefit, perhaps also Atlantic ports in Europe.
I am not a crackpot.
The Chinese should read this book.
It's an eye opener. HINTS: Technology and man power aren't the problems. And dealing with mosquitoes hasn't changed very much in the last century.
Also, for you program managers, it's an AWESOME read and helps when you're crying yourself to sleep from the mean nasty things your developers say about you.
I've been waiting to hear about this for years. It should be quite a project. Wikipedia has a map for those interested.
Proverbs 21:19
Look at a map of Nicaragua. It's at least twice if not 3x as wide as Panama at its thinnest point. What an unbelievably stupid idea, not to mention how stupid it is to completely cut your country in half.
Also the article says the aim is to "weaken US dominance over the key shipping route between the Pacific and Atlantic oceans." The Panama canal is owned by Panama. Has been since 1999.
Brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.
Like iOS, they get to set the price to move the goods around.
I'm pretty sure that you can just 'sideload' through the Strait of Magellan if you feel like it.
Panamax. To relieve shipping headaches in the area.
If it only takes them a hundred years and a trillion dollars it'll be a miracle. And here's a tip: bring in the French first. After they fail everyone will want to help you out because apparently nothing's more satisfying than beating the French at something.
Guess we'll get to see how far that ancient Chinese wisdom gets them...
Still, if they want to waste that money and manpower, let them. A dollar wasted on this boondoggle is a dollar not spent on their military.
Apparently, there is a sea-level discrepancy of ~20cm between the Atlantic and Pacific sides of the Panama Canal. That's largely irrelevant; because it isn't a sea-level canal.
If one were to build a sea-level canal across the area(or nearby), what would the effect be? Some initial flow quickly reaching equilibrium? A more-or-less-permanent(for human purposes, let's say a few centuries at least) flow? Would the erosive effects be substantial enough that part of the canal could dig itself, if an initial cut was made to allow the flow to start?
So, a truly massive freshwater lake is about to be flooded with salt water. What about all the fish/creatures/plants that live there?
considering america had to basically create panama by blocking columbian troop movement with warships, and bribe its existing stationed troops already in place to lay down arms, id say china should reconsider the proposition being made. the US also had to support a pretty brutal dictator (Noriega) who routinely tortured and murdered his people, as well as fight a brief war to prevent a communist nationalization of the resource. For a country that prides itself on peaceful expansion and nonaggression it may just as well be cheaper to buy the existing canal outright and retrofit it.
Good people go to bed earlier.
You realise if the pull this off technically Costa Rica will become an island.
Like iOS, they get to set the price to move the goods around.
I'm pretty sure that you can just 'sideload' through the Strait of Magellan if you feel like it.
It's not like they're closing the Panama Canal once the Chinese build this. The new canal costs too much, people will just keep going through the old canal (tough luck for those who invested in ships too large to go through the old canal, but doing all those thousands of km through the end of South America isn't less expensive either).
A china that is committed to trading with the world is not waging war. This is about shipping routes from China to Europe bypassing unstable africa and an even more unstable middle east. Its also about ships such as the maersk Triple E class 165,000 tons which is too big for any US port to handle but can be easily handled by ports in china and europe. This would shock americans but the Chinese of 700 years had ships bigger than any in Europe that could travel farther and were more advanced with magnetic compasses and watertight compartments.
David Lee Roth is confused.
Just like GITMO is owned by Cuba?
We go to all that trouble to attempt an overthrow of the Nicaraguan government all through the 80's, and THIS is how they say thanks!
Do you have any idea how much money we spent sending your people to college, you ungrateful bastards?
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
There are literally people dying on this planet for lack of fresh water and this is just used as hydraulic fluid and then thrown into the ocean while ships pass by. Everything is wrong with this.
Are there people dying in Panama for lack of water? Are you proposing to transport water from Panama to the Sudan? Sounds like an amazingly good idea since it's super efficient to transport water large distances... Also, news flash, this new canal will be using fresh water -- from Lake Nicaragua -- in the same way as the Panama canal!
Isnt that much...we spent a trillion dollars on the war in iraq we spent another trillion on stimulus. Imagine if we had spent a trillion rebuilding all our roads, rails, schools, hospitals and ports. Efficiency in infrastructure adds to long term economic growth which increases tax revenue.
When you have 100s of millions of unemployed single males, you have a problem. They need busy work. It would be best for them if they shipped them all over with shovels and hand-dug the canal. They also need more countries enslaved to their cheap products in order to keep their factories going, again, because if you have 100s of millions of unemployed single males, you have a problem.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
What's to stop Costa Rica or Columbia joining in?
Money, for starters. You'll want to read back on the fact that this costs billions of dollars to make, which Costa Rica doesn't have.
As for Columbia... you refer to the University in New York or the or the district where Washington is located? Either way none of those is close enough to the Pacific Ocean to be considered for an entry point to a canal.
A Man, A Plan, A Canal: Nicaragua!
Aside from it being a longer route, I thought one of the reasons they decided not to dig there was volcanism.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Like iOS, they get to set the price to move the goods around.
I'm pretty sure that you can just 'sideload' through the Strait of Magellan if you feel like it.
It's not like they're closing the Panama Canal once the Chinese build this. The new canal costs too much, people will just keep going through the old canal (tough luck for those who invested in ships too large to go through the old canal, but doing all those thousands of km through the end of South America isn't less expensive either).
I don't think the significance of this development is so much commercial as it is geo-political. Not that long ago, if the Soviets had done this, it would have caused a major shit-storm. This is a subtle but deliberate and clever provocation on part of the Chinese since they are effectively invading what the USA has regarded as it's 'sphere of influence' for about 200 years without firing carrying a single gun but still doing something of considerable military significance. I'm not sure what the PRC is trying to achieve here but between the recent hacker attacks, this and a whole lot of other pinpricks the PRC is poking a sleeping Grizzly with a stick. I'll actually be surprised if this won't eventually lead to some sort of US counter-provocation. Traditionally this would have taken the form of a couple of US carrier group steaming through the Taiwan Strait with full brouhaha and unofficial orders to Navy pilots to deliberately interpret the limits of PRC airspace rather loosely. This would then have been followed by the US congress approving a massive package of arms sales to Taiwan. Who the hell knows, perhaps approval of F-35 stealth fighter sales to Taiwan has been deliberately kept in reserve for just such an occasion?
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
One challenge is the existing infrastructure. Would ports spend the money to handle mega-Panamax ships and can the rail infrastructure handle the increased freight. The ability to move freight beyond the port can be a big bottleneck.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
100s of millions of unemployed single males...you have a problem
Uhhhh, JERBS are the least of their problems.
Unless they're going to work them 24/7, they need 100s of millions of wimmins . And these idiots keep aborting females. Unless China has the plans for the gay bomb. It's going to take a world war the likes we haven't seen to burn off that many unattached bachelors. Sexbots and VR porn only fulfill the basest needs and will only serve as a stopgap. (but what a market opportunity!!!)
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Meanwhile, factions in the US fight tooth and nail against deepening harbors by 5 feet (fights that have, so far, taken longer than the original Panama Canal to build), using regulatory blocks.
That's just to handle the new Panama size. These new super-supercargo ships, forget it.
Whether a nation is crushed under the weight of corruption and kickbacks (you must pay to get anything done) or well-meaning regulation (you must pay to get anything done) the result is the same. We are closer to Mexico with kickbacks than China, with a freer economy.
There's a lot more to freedom than just speech. Maybe the next empire will learn this. The US didn't, just like Europe before it.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
From the Wiki: ... Project Chariot, which would have used several hydrogen bombs to create an artificial harbor at Cape Thompson, Alaska. It was never carried out due to concerns for the native populations and the fact that there was little potential use for the harbor to justify its risk and expense....
Government Man: "We're going to build a new harbor for you!"
Inuit: "No want harbor. Want seals"
GM: "Look, this harbor will be really neat. It will be a big hole in the ground next to the sea where ships can park..."
I: "No want harbor. Want seals"
GM: "...and at night it will glow faintly, so that the ships can find their way in...."
I: "Any seals in harbor?"
GM: "No, no seals. But there will be lots of sailors. And bars..."
I: "No want harbor. Want seals"
GM: " If you don't stop saying that, we won't give you anything at all!"
I: "No want anything. Except seals. You got seals?"
GM: "Oh, for God's sake! Come on, Martin, lets go and blow up an island in the Pacific instead. The weather's better there, anyway..."
I have been trying http://hivereader.com/ part time, while I use Feedly full-time. Hive shows a lot of promise.
Eh I don't think the Chinese are viewed as a monolithic political bloc like the Soviets were, it's not nearly as much of a provocation.
Because it's much harder to make a good palindrome in mandarin.
That's not a particularly stable, rule of law part of the world.
I'd like to see the canal built, but if they succeed, what's to keep the govt there from nationalizing it.
Seems like either China or some coalition would have to defend the asset for the next 100 years.
Some care would be required for that to play in the US.
Overall, this seems a good positive thing for all, it's just that the details are tricky.
I go to the article that begins, "Project will reinforce China's growing influence on global trade and weaken US dominance over a key shipping route." and off to the side are several articles, "Edward Snowden: Russia offers to consider asylum request" and "NSA snooping: Obama under pressure as senator denounces 'act of treason'." Well you can see what this will lead to.
mfwright@batnet.com
No US port can even handle the 165k EEE maersk class that already exists.
I work for a ship owner and order my vessels to transit via Panama quite often. To transit one of our smaller vessels (~30,000 DWT) it costs ~USD$90,000.00 and is one of the major costs calculated on our voyages, especially on a bad economic market. Despite the fact that ship owners are faced with a bad market, the PCA (Panama Canal Administration) keeps needlessly inflating the costs to transit at least once or twice per year. Our larger vessels can easily cost ~USD$200,000.00 and more to transit. The industry has long been awaiting some competition to mitigate these over-inflated costs and it is high time it materialised.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. - Albert Einstein
If the canal wasn't there, the water would simply flow into the ocean naturally. Panama doesn't exactly need that water for irrigation (it's rains enough already), and bulk water transport is impractical, the only other use vs. letting it flow naturally would be a hydroelectric dam. But the canal is far more valuable to Panama than using that same water to generate electricity.
Saying the water is "wasted" is like saying that we should suck all the water out of the Mississippi and send it to dry parts of the US instead of letting it flow into the Gulf. (As a side-note, this is essentially what we do with the Colorado; while it's slightly better now, 20 or so years ago the mighty Colorado withered down to a muddy drainage ditch by the time us and Mexico were done with it.)
This is a country willing to economically wage war with the First World. Anyone working in that area with that deserves whatever they get (and if the US had a willing administration, indirect assistance).
If the US wasn't hampered by an anti-American administration, that government would not be building the canal. Or at least they'd not have a known enemy of the United States building it.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Rene Nuñez, announced the $40bn (£26bn) project, which will reinforce Beijing's growing influence on global trade and weaken US dominance over the key shipping route between the Pacific and Atlantic oceans.
The Panama Canal is under Panamanian control, and is open to all ships. I don't understand the U.S. control reference. And even if there is residual U.S. control over the canal, how does that impact China. So far as I can see, size is the only limitation that they face and that has nothing to do with U.S. control.
I suppose cost may be an issue that Chinese ships could eschew during the concession period. But, would they really spend more than $80bn(see note) in Panama Canal fees over the concession period?
Note: The project plan calls for $40bn with completion in 10 years. Anyone ever involved with any construction will know that this really means $80bn with completion in 20 to 30 years.
There are already ships far larger than Panamax in operation and docking at ports, they just have to take a different route if they want to get from the Pacific to the Atlantic (or vice-versa.)
Most likely the result will be yet another coup or fake election in Nicaragua. It will be interesting to see whether DC waits until the Chinese have sunk a lot of time, money and engineering into the process or not. If they wait until it's partly completed I would assume that they intend to steal the whole canal and hand it over to SAIC or one of the other Pentagon mega-contractors.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
One of the most beautiful & bio diverse places on earth is due to wild life having been able to move between north & south america.
panama to the south, now maybe nicaragua chopping the jungle in half from the north.
a few will make some money while destroying more of our planet. -sweet
I propose the chinese build a sea level canal the whole way -- they wont finish it for a thousand years and it will backrupt them much sooner.
Unfortunately they are probably going to try to get outside investors (the chinese economy is imploding and this loooks alot laike a PR stunt)
So the USA can meddle in Taiwan, but China cannot meddle in Central America? Seems fair...
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
Sudaca de mierda.
Why dig another canal when, with the soon-to-be ice-free Arctic, they can navigate the Northwest Passage? Just add a port at Moosonee on James Bay and you're all set.
Never heard of the Monroe Doctrine? (I'm being sarcastic)
The plan is on the BORDER of nicaragua and costa rica. The full story is far more interesting. Nicaragua invaded costa rica in 2010 for the sole reason of capturing a portion of the river that is going to be used for the canal. Because it is on the border, I fully expect Costa Rica will also reap benefits from this project. * I have lived in Nicaragua and Costa Rica for past five years.
Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
America's slide to mediocrity continues.
so much for the freshwater sharks. and the fresh water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nicaragua
The only reason no one worries about this scenario (they used to, see Waterworld)
Sorry but in Waterworld there was no land except for the peak of Mount Everest. This represents a sea level rise of ~8km which is two orders of magnitude more than the effect of melting all the ice on the planet (~80m). This is not a scenario that anyone with even the loosest of ties to reality has ever considered a real possibility.
China wants us to stop meddling in Taiwan. This seems counterproductive to that end.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Fuck you.
-- Counting backwards since 1984!
Sea level is different between Atlantic and Pacific, at least down near the Panama Isthmus where they've bothered to really track it. Average only 9.2 inches maybe (sources vary), possible a maximum of 9 meters (depending on tides, winds, etc.).
Maybe that'll matter, maybe it won't.
I realize you're making a dig at the US, but I don't think the Chinese would be on board with your analogy. They'd see it this way:
"So the USA can meddle in Taiwan, but China cannot meddle in Florida? Seems fair..."
(Puerto Rico might be a better analogy, but you get the point.)
niggers
I'm sure the rednecks in Florida will be glad to take any weapons that the Chinese want to send them.
But I don't think it will balance the effects of the weapons we send to the Taiwanese.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
From Wikipedia articles for Antarctica and Earth:
Area of Antarctica = 14 million km^2. Area of Earth = 510 million km^2,
so Antarctica covers 2.7% of Earth's surface, or 3.9% of the water surface.
98% of Antarctica has ice at least 1600m thick. For back-of-envelope calculation, call it 100% at exactly 1600m thick.
Then if this all melts, the oceans will rise by 3.9% of 1600m, or 62m.
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
what about the volcano?
China is going to space, will have a space station and will be on Mars in the next few years. REmember when America was great, today she cant even put her own men in space and has to buy tickets from Russia. How the mighty have fallen.
It wasn't meant to compare 2 equal situations. It was meant to imply that Americans think this is an encroachment on our "rights", but it's not nearly as bad as what we're doing regarding Taiwan, when viewed from the perspective of a disinterested party.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
Yes, but international doctrines don't usually apply to one nation and not another, especially if those 2 nations are equal in power.
Which is why the Bush Doctrine really scares me. By that doctrine, if China feels threatened by the USA, and if the USA has weapons of mass destruction (which we do), then China has the right to invade the USA. It's sad when you set a precedent that could lead to your own demise.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.