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BitCoin Mining, Other Virtual Activity Taxable Under US Law

chicksdaddy writes "Beware you barons of BitCoin – you World of Warcraft one-percenters: the long arm of the Internal Revenue Service may soon be reaching into your treasure hoard to extract Uncle Sam's fair share of your virtual wealth. A new Government Accountability Office (GAO) report on virtual economies finds that many types of transactions in virtual economies – including Bitcoin mining and virtual transactions that result in real-world profit – are likely taxable under current U.S. law, but that the IRS does a poor job of tracking such business activity and informing buyers and sellers of their duty to pay taxes on virtual earnings. The report, 'Virtual Economies and Currencies: Additional IRS Guidance Could Reduce Tax Compliance Risks' found that the growing use of virtual currencies like BitCoin and virtual game currencies warrants the U.S.'s tax collection agency to mitigate the risks. Those include efforts to educate taxpayers and the publication of basic tax reporting requirements for transactions using virtual currencies, The Security Ledger reports."

239 comments

  1. WoW tax by WillgasM · · Score: 4, Funny

    How many coppers is this gonna cost me?

    1. Re:WoW tax by ArcadeMan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is the IRS we're talking about. It's going to cost you SILVERS, my friend!

    2. Re:WoW tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An arm and a leg.

    3. Re:WoW tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So does this mean we can file for back wages for all those hours in game over the years that we didn't earn even minimum wage on? Most of us never profited a single real world copper even from all that game play. How many of us considered selling/buying in game coin as unethical anyway?

      And your right, if they are going to tax in game income then it should be paid in game with game coin. The IRS agents should have to be in game mobs we can kill and loot too. Virtually, of course.

    4. Re:WoW tax by ron_ivi · · Score: 2
      You might be kidding -- but it seems a great way to handle it in real life.

      WoW could even handle withholding so people aren't stuck having to do quarterly estimated taxes, etc.

      And if the IRS objects that the withholded-copper isn't worth much, well.......

    5. Re:WoW tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's still less than my repair bill because you didn't get out of the void zone.

      Yeah, you. I know it was you.

    6. Re:WoW tax by subanark · · Score: 1

      I don't see how a wow tax would work. It is against the ToS to exchange wow money for real world money or other out of game compensation. Transactions that don't involve the auction house or trade window are unsupported. Transactions where real world goods are included are banned.

      What would the IRS do with the money anyways? In order to convert any of their taxes to $$, they would need to violate the ToS, or perhaps mandate that they be allowed too? Force Wow into a allowing real money transactions? Tell the game devs to automatically take taxes out of the game when players loot? Take that money and auction it off to the highest bidder?

      What about non simple currency? Will they tax crafting materials as well? Would Wow simply move away from a reliance on their current system for a different one?

    7. Re:WoW tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they can just stack applying the AuctionHouse fees to it and the players would never know the difference.

    8. Re:WoW tax by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      They won't take silver notes. They won't take some precious coins. They may take silver dimes and quarters at face value. They base this on a snarling rats nest of US laws.

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    9. Re:WoW tax by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      WoW wouldn't be taxed. It has no real money AH, so no way to cash out. Blizzard owns all your "gains". With bitcon, you own your own gains, so you can be taxed on them. For most farmers, they burn more in hardware and electricity than they make. Enforcing this will likely not generate much income for the IRS, but would increase compliance costs.

    10. Re:WoW tax by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      In order to convert any of their taxes to $$

      They would require the taxes to be paid in $$, like they do currently with foreign currencies. Problem solved.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  2. Uhm... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

    What's a 'barron'?

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    1. Re:Uhm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      barron
      Barron is a city in Barron County (of which it is the county seat), in the U.S. state of Wisconsin. The population was 3,248 at the 2000 census. The city is located within the Town of Barron.

      Thanks, google definitions.

    2. Re:Uhm... by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      The City of Barron is located within the Town of Barron located in the County of Barron?

      Yo dawg, I heard you like Barrons...

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    3. Re:Uhm... by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      What's a 'barron'?

      A feudal lord when typed on a smart phone.

    4. Re:Uhm... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      What's a 'barron'?

      It appears to be a business magazine. Not sure what it has to do with the taxation of virtual profit...

    5. Re:Uhm... by c0lo · · Score: 4, Funny
      The octane number used for lawyers or other legal professionals. In layman term: a measure of how much you can squeeze a lawyer before detonation.

      Does it make sense now?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    6. Re:Uhm... by swilde23 · · Score: 1

      It's like a baron, but with more rolling of the arrrrrrrrrrs

      --
      There are 10 types of people in the world. Those that understand this sig, and those that beat up people who do.
    7. Re:Uhm... by NerdyLove · · Score: 1

      Baron Nashor is the most powerful neutral monster on Summoner's Rift!

    8. Re:Uhm... by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 1

      barron Barron is a city in Barron County (of which it is the county seat), in the U.S. state of Wisconsin. The population was 3,248 at the 2000 census. The city is located within the Town of Barron.

      Thanks, google definitions.

      They are renowned for the fleet of airships.

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
    9. Re:Uhm... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      How can a city be within a town? Now I need to know the definitions of city and town.

    10. Re:Uhm... by CodeHxr · · Score: 1

      While that is true, it doesn't explain what a "barron" is.

  3. tax on capital gains only by optikos · · Score: 5, Informative

    Keep track of expenses (e.g., equipment, floor space rental, electricity consumption) that serve as the investment for the BitCoin mining. This comes off the bottom-line profit. Otherwise, you would pay 'income' taxes on your 'outflow'.

    1. Re:tax on capital gains only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Supposedly you need to pay tax (sometimes called 'use tax'?) on purchases made out of state.
      But nobody does. Ever. The law isn't enforceable.

      That's why they're now going after retailers to collect out of state taxes.

    2. Re:tax on capital gains only by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      People do pay it all the time. In my state it is very common to let the tax agency estimate it for you since you probably lack records. Pretty much everyone does that way in my state.

    3. Re:tax on capital gains only by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

      Keep track of expenses (e.g., equipment, floor space rental, electricity consumption) that serve as the investment for the BitCoin mining. This comes off the bottom-line profit. Otherwise, you would pay 'income' taxes on your 'outflow'.

      In 99 cases out of 100 these days, you will be in the negative anyway. Bitcoin mining is dead to anyone not participating in the multi-thousand dollar ASIC race to the bottom. And to those that are, may god have pity on their souls. The IRS would only get any real returns by going after miners from 2010, and those guys have no doubt disposed of all of the records and the profits.

    4. Re:tax on capital gains only by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      How do they estimate that? Seriously curious how they would have any idea what your expenditures were.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    5. Re:tax on capital gains only by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      That's sales tax, called a "use tax" because "import tax" is illegal and the sale didn't take place, so they can't tax the sale itself. The law is enforcable, but not because if it were enforced, the people would revolt.

    6. Re:tax on capital gains only by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Subpoena your bank and credit records, and identify more in purchases than declared in tax, and prosecute you for evasion. It's simple, and is sometimes done, though not often because so many people break that law, no politician wants to be know as the enforcer, it would be political suicide.

      Estimated as a percentage of income and spending habits.

  4. Is this news? by Typical+Slashdotter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why wouldn't it be taxed? There is no "on a computer" exemption to rules that we pay taxes on profitable activities...

    1. Re:Is this news? by rueger · · Score: 2

      There is no "on a computer" exemption

      Yes there is! It's the same as the "copyright doesn't apply on the Internet" rule.

    2. Re:Is this news? by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      Why wouldn't it be taxed? There is no "on a computer" exemption to rules that we pay taxes on profitable activities...

      So if you never make a profit you should be good.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    3. Re:Is this news? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      That is just for screwing actors and writers. They still pay the IRS their cut.

    4. Re:Is this news? by Typical+Slashdotter · · Score: 2

      Interestingly, Uncle Sam still gets his cut from Hollywood accounting. Hollywood accounting works by making the movie look like a loss by putting all the profits toward fees paid to various executives and agencies. By doing this, the movie gets out of paying royalties due to the wording of contracts. However, all the executives and agencies still need to pay taxes on those fees.

    5. Re:Is this news? by gl4ss · · Score: 0

      There is no "on a computer" exemption

      Yes there is! It's the same as the "copyright doesn't apply on the Internet" rule.

      actually that rule is the other way around - even if it wouldn't apply as criminal if you did it in real life it sure as fuck will count if you do it online(copying cassette for a friend vs. sending it as mp3).

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    6. Re:Is this news? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Why wouldn't it be taxed?

      No paper trail. Duh.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    7. Re:Is this news? by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Why wouldn't it be taxed?

      No paper trail. Duh.

      That only means that the IRS is permitted to estimate how much you made.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    8. Re:Is this news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No.

      A lot of those executives (companies, actually) are based in tax havens, so they instead pay a lower tax on their income to that tax haven, but they pay Uncle Sam nothing.

  5. Sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'll get right on that, right after tabulating, reporting and paying the 20 years of sales taxes I haven't paid on my internet purchases.

  6. Eh.. by intellitech · · Score: 1

    You can't tax what you can't see.

    --
    vos nescitis quicquam, nec cogitatis quia expedit nobis ut unus moriatur homo pro populo et non tota gens pereat.
    1. Re:Eh.. by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When your purchases don't line up they sure can see it.

      How about instead of being a leech you pay your taxes?

    2. Re:Eh.. by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      They can see your spending...

    3. Re:Eh.. by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      Sure. I just hope they have a World of Warcraft account, on the Alliance side, on the Earthen Ring server.

    4. Re:Eh.. by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      Look at the other end of the line. There should be an irony somewhere out there.

    5. Re:Eh.. by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      including Bitcoin mining and virtual transactions that result in real-world profit

      Only if you make real money do you have to pay. If you only spend your gold on your level 56 my little pony mount and underpants for your elfen paladin you are ok.

    6. Re:Eh.. by Virtucon · · Score: 1

      I buy stocks and bonds and never see anything except the paperwork on the transaction, not the physical stock or bond but I still get taxed on those activities.

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    7. Re:Eh.. by leonardluen · · Score: 1

      not only that but a couple companies (eTrade, Ameritrade, and some others) released an MMO a while ago where you can play this game entirely online and you no longer need to worry about papercuts from looking at paperwork.

      seriously trading stock is now just as virtual as bitcoin or selling gold in WoW

    8. Re:Eh.. by lgw · · Score: 1, Informative

      Only in your world is trying to minimize your taxes a "leech". Leeches and moochers receive checks from the government for being part of a politically favored group. Taxes are mostly the consequence of being part of politically disfavored group.

      Sure, some small percentage of tax money goes to build roads and other useful stuff, but mostly the government moves money from one group to another. Sadly more and more we're taking money from generations yet unborn, as our debt approaches $150,000 per taxpayer and just keeps rising.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    9. Re:Eh.. by Virtucon · · Score: 1

      Good point but yes, you can go 100% virtual even on stock trading with paper being an analog to the process. If there are records or a trace of information the IRS will go after it.

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    10. Re:Eh.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone should pay their fair share, unless you are an Obama supporter. Then by all means, bleed the coffers dry.

    11. Re:Eh.. by XcepticZP · · Score: 1

      Not paying for something you NEVER ASKED FOR is not being a leech.You can take your damn social contract and shove it you know where. While you leeches are busy thinking up new and creative ways to suck up more money under the pretense of "social good", the rest of us are busy actually doing something to better the people we care for.

    12. Re:Eh.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My wow toons are all low level noobs. Tax? Hell no. I'm gonna file for virtual welfare!

      wizard needs food, badly.

  7. I wonder if they'll be selective again? by Virtucon · · Score: 1

    I mean, only going after Bitcoin miners vs. WoW players? I mean BitCoin miners are conservative, they eat a lot of power and deal with suspicious real world countries, like Panama. They don't come out in the daylight and they spend a lot of time speaking in tongues like "petaflop." I can imagine that the IRS will not have the ability to distinguish the two or to classify properly and therefore they'll start jamming up the process with arbitrary rules and procedures, of which nobody will have a clue as to how to traverse the veritable maze of traps and holes that the bureaucracy will produce.

    --
    Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    1. Re:I wonder if they'll be selective again? by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      How are BitCoin miners "conservative"? As far as I can tell, most are some variety of techno-anarchist. That's about the opposite of conservatism, which is about stability, tradition, and respect for authority.

    2. Re: I wonder if they'll be selective again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is hilarious. Most "conservatives" I know have no respect for authority.

    3. Re:I wonder if they'll be selective again? by Virtucon · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't put them in that class, definitely entrepreneurial more along the lines of libertarian business types perhaps? Anarchists wouldn't keep the infrastructure in place to keep mining.

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    4. Re: I wonder if they'll be selective again? by psmears · · Score: 1

      That is hilarious. Most "conservatives" I know have no respect for authority.

      Often what they're in favor of is you being respectful of their authority ;-)

      (of course this applies to politicians of more than one affiliation...)

    5. Re: I wonder if they'll be selective again? by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      In what sense are they conservative, then?

      Conservatism's roots pretty much lie in a skepticism of counterculture, social unrest, rapid changes, etc. Edmund Burke is usually considered the intellectual founder of modern conservatism, and his criticisms of the French Revolution set the tone. In more recent, American episode, conservatives' deep hostility towards the 1960s counterculture, and support of government crackdowns against protestors (e.g. Reagan's declaration of martial law in Berkeley) is representative of the pro-authority, anti-counterculture outlook.

    6. Re:I wonder if they'll be selective again? by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      Anarchism doesn't preclude voluntary cooperation (just the opposite).

      Hanging around the Bitcoin community, I see people of all stripes. It doesn't take much to be against what the government is doing to the money in your pocket (inflating all value out of it) to take an opposing stand to it, whatever side of the aisle (or elsewhere) you find yourself.

  8. B.S by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 1

    Until I can purchase gas, groceries, and beer with Bitcoins or Battle.net Gold, it's not a real currency. I do know of one drug dealer in my area that accepts bitcoin, but he's not paying taxes on that income already anyway so fake money is fine for him.

    On top of that, how do they plan on dealing with things like what happened in D3 a few weeks ago where literally trillions of gold was duped which could have potentially been worth over $100,000? Is duping gold in a game going to become equivalent to real world counterfeiting? If so, who's gonna be responsible to make sure it doesn't happen? I think these fuckers are opening a Pandora's box the likes of which they have scarcely seen before.

    --
    I got here through a series of tubes
    1. Re:B.S by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Why would he not be paying taxes?
      You have to report that income, and if it is of any real amount you should or you might get caught.

    2. Re: B.S by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't get it... Are you actually saying a drug dealer dealing illegal drugs illegally should report his earning to the IRS?

    3. Re: B.S by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Yes, of course.
      You are required to pay taxes on that income.

      That is how they caught Al Capone after all. I imagine lots of small time folks can get away with it, but they should be paying their taxes like everyone else.

    4. Re:B.S by gorzek · · Score: 1

      This is a lot easier than you think it is.

      If you hold Bitcoins, they have no cash value, and thus are not taxable. If you cash them out into USD (or any other official currency), that is taxable income--or capital gains. That part is not clear, but you'd have to pay taxes on it either way.

      If someone duped D3 gold and managed to cash it out to the tune of $100K, then yes, they would have to pay taxes on that. Income is income.

    5. Re: B.S by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GP means it's pointless to make the reminder.

      The likes of Al Capone are supposed to have large money laundry operations to make their income look clean, so they decided it's easier to catch Al Capone for tax evasion; in a sense it's actually wise for a mob boss to pay tax. The little guy drug dealer, on the other hand, just won't bother if his purpose is not to get caught...

    6. Re: B.S by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Paying taxes will not increase his odds of getting caught. The IRS cannot rat you out.

    7. Re: B.S by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technically the got Al Capone because he wasn't paying taxes on his illegal income. But since tax evasion is a lesser charge than the various charges they'll through at you if they can prove you sold drugs you're still better off getting nails for tax evasion than for the drugs.

    8. Re:B.S by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 1

      Of course exchanging fake money for real money makes it real money, that's kind of obvious. That doesn't answer how the IRS is going to directly tax virtual currencies without them being made into real money. How is Uncle Sam going to extract it's pound of flesh when the flesh only exists in specific limited realms of virtual reality? That is the point I'm trying to make.

      --
      I got here through a series of tubes
    9. Re: B.S by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 1

      This is a good point. The IRS doesn't have a vested interest in putting drug dealers out of business if they are paying taxes. Any money they receive is money they can use, I don't think they have to worry about the whole "illicitly attained income" bullshit and it's not like the DEA is going to make them give the money back. I never thought about it this way.

      This was really interesting and informative, thanks for bringing it up.

      --
      I got here through a series of tubes
    10. Re: B.S by berashith · · Score: 1

      I started thinking about this, and I think you are correct in the most hilarious of ways. You would need to have a business license, some sort of LLC or DBA, and then likely pay sales tax on that. As a small business, retained earnings would be the final profit, and that would be taxable. If this was a larger operation that is selling bulk to other dealers, then you may need to 1099 some of that money for proper records. No one ever asks what product was sold, only how many dollars worth were sold, and how much was profit and how much goes out as salary ( everything in a bank account) .

      Now I do think doing this would be stupid, as the account would get shutdown easily upon suspicion, but the fact stands, simply paying taxes on illegal income would probably not be the thing that gets the operation shut down.

    11. Re: B.S by Dr+Fro · · Score: 1

      Unless you're member of a non-profit with "Constitutional" in its name.

      --
      ********************
      I object to Intellect without Discipline.
    12. Re: B.S by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The IRS cannot rat you out.

      Bwahahaha! In this day and age every government agency is sharing information with every other government agency? I doubt it.

  9. Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Typical+Slashdotter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    IANAA (I am not an accountant), but capital gains are only when you buy something and then sell it at a higher price. Buying a bunch of computer equipment and making money by selling it would be capital gains. Buying a bunch of computer equipment and making money by selling the bitcoins it mines is just regular income. You can (and should!), however, deduct the cost of the equipment, etc., as business expenses. The distinction is important because capital gains are taxed at a lower rate than regular income.

    1. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by houstonbofh · · Score: 3, Informative

      It could be both, if you mine and hold the coins...

    2. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by alexander_686 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Mod parent up. It’s depreciation expense. Depreciation would either reduce your operating income if you sold the bitcoins the same year you mined them or would increase your cost basis of your bitcoin (thus decreasing your capital gains tax) it you held your bitcoins for more than a year.

      Be warned, the IRS makes this stuff complicated fast.

    3. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 2

      IANAA (I am not an accountant), but capital gains are only when you buy something and then sell it at a higher price.

      It's a little bit more involved than that. This is only a capital gain when you actually intend to hold and/or use the assets rather than turning around and immediately selling them again. When a grocery store buys items wholesale and then sells them to its retail customers, that's not a "capital gain", it's just a retail profit. US tax code requires you to hold an asset for at least a year before selling it in order to claim the capital gains tax rate.

    4. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by PPH · · Score: 1

      When a grocery store buys items wholesale and then sells them to its retail customers, that's not a "capital gain", it's just a retail profit. US tax code requires you to hold an asset for at least a year before selling it in order to claim the capital gains tax rate.

      I'm certain that a lot of the stuff in my grocery store has been on the shelf for longer than a year.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    5. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Typical+Slashdotter · · Score: 2

      Honest question: can you actually count the cost of equipment and electricity toward the cost basis of your bitcoins? I thought that, in order to be part of the cost basis, you had to be able to attribute the cost to specific bitcoins, rather than have lump expenses for the month/year/whatever.

    6. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by optikos · · Score: 4, Informative
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gain

      The key words here are: "financial assets" and "intangible assets". Bitcoin mining is both of these.

      from Capital gain's Wikipedia article:

      The gain is the difference between a higher selling price and a lower purchase price.

      The gain is the difference between 1) the selling price of the financial asset after the mathematics (or after WoW achievement) and 2) the purchase price of the intangible asset before the mathematics (or before the WoW achievement).

    7. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      The person you are replying to never said it was capital gains. When you have a business, there are expenses which can be deducted from any revenue that business generates. In the case of bitcoins. If I have buy a computer which I dedicate to mining bitcoins, I can deduct the cost of that computer from the money I earn selling bitcoins. There would be additional expenses which could be deducted as well, but since I am not an accountant I will not try to list more because I may be mistaken about which of the other expenses would be legally tax-deductible.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    8. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by pegr · · Score: 2

      But it's not an asset until it's sold. Until then, it's a number with no intrinsic value. Now if you BOUGHT BitCoins instead of mine them, it would be capital gains when you sold them.

    9. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by alexander_686 · · Score: 2

      You don’t need to attribute to a specific bitcoin but you must be able to attribute to bitcoin mining.

      I would guess the rules would be similar to how expenses are allocated for a home office or a pro rata basis. If you home office is 10% of your home, 10% of the your electricity, heating, depreciation, can be written off.

      Note, the rules are a lot of subjective and complex rules, people abuse this all of the time, and the IRS loves auditing this type of stuff because it is abused so often. And this is kind of like manufacturing if you hold it for more than a year, so there would be another layer of rules on top of that.

    10. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by cob666 · · Score: 1

      Unless your business was buying and selling BitCoins, then the sale would be classified as regular income.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
    11. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IANAA (I am not an accountant), but capital gains are only when you buy something and then sell it at a higher price. Buying a bunch of computer equipment and making money by selling it would be capital gains.

      Good thing you are not an accountant, because you are wrong.

      "A capital gain is a profit that results from a disposition of a capital asset, such as stock, bond or real estate, where the amount realized on the disposition exceeds the purchase price."

      What you described is just plain profit from buying and selling a commodity.

    12. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by lgw · · Score: 3, Interesting

      IANAA, but that's not how depreciation works. You spend a lot of capital on X to operate your business - it's a cash cost this year, and you want to deduct it from your taxes this year, but the IRS says "no, even though you spent all that money this year, you must spread out the cost of X over N years for tax purposes, so pay us a lot more this year". Depreciation is rarely a good thing, and it doesn't form a basis for capital gains.

      I don't think gold miners selling the gold they mine treat that as a capital gain in the first place, AFAIK it's treated like any other manufactured product. The depreciation of the mining equipment is an overhead expense that reduces reported profit appropriately. (The cost of energy is often the primary expense in gold mining.)

      Bitcoin "mining" would seem similar, but it's a mistake to assume tax law follows any sort of logic or reason.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    13. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by sirlark · · Score: 2

      Buying some land and growing some vegetables on it does not attract capital gains tax either, but nor does it attract income tax until you SELL the vegetables. Also, it doesn't attract tax if you barter the vegetables for something else. From TFA:

      GAO said that strict virtual (or “closed flow”) transactions in which virtual currency is used only within a game or virtual environment to purchase virtual goods and services were not taxable.

      The IRS is saying the creation/accrual of bitcoins and other virtual currencies is taxable at the point of barter as well as sale. It's not even income, as you've earned no money from selling something. I don't know, this seems like a real over reach on the part of the IRS. It makes perfect sense to tax someone when they sell their bit coins for cash; that's income, but taxing the BUYER for buying an online subscription, or some tech gadget, or a T-shirt and then taxing the SELLER for changing those bitcoins into USD. That's double taxation. As long as you can't pay some countries taxes with it, it shouldn't be taxable IMHO.

    14. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Also not entirely true. Traditionally, an asset is kept on the books at what it cost to acquire it. If you bought it, that will of course be the price you paid. If you created it, or acquired it through other means, such as mining Bitcoins, the book value will the cost in labor and capital it took, and your profit (or capital gain--or loss if the price doesn't cover your costs) on sale wiill be the sale price minus that book value.

    15. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless your business was buying and selling BitCoins, then the sale would be classified as regular income if you held the bitcoins for less than a year.

      FTFY.

      And it doesn't matter if it is your business or not. Anyone that buys and/or sells bitcoins is subject to the same taxes.

    16. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      You could say the same for buying/selling houses/cars/real estate/antiques/gold. Not a lawyer, but every conversation I've heard allows those things to be treated as investment items.

    17. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IAARS (I am a retail stocker) and I can assure you, only the stuff that doesn't sell well. That gets rotated at least once a year around inventory though...most years..

    18. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. It would only be capital gains if you bought the coins.

    19. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

      IANAA (I am not an accountant), but capital gains are only when you buy something and then sell it at a higher price.

      It's a little bit more involved than that. This is only a capital gain when you actually intend to hold and/or use the assets rather than turning around and immediately selling them again. When a grocery store buys items wholesale and then sells them to its retail customers, that's not a "capital gain", it's just a retail profit. US tax code requires you to hold an asset for at least a year before selling it in order to claim the capital gains tax rate.

      Eh that is a bit backwards. First, "capital gains" is any profit made on a non-inventory item; meaning something you are NOT going to keep in a warehouse or grocery store. Stocks, real estate, commodities, etc are all items you would buy/resell that fall under capital gains. Second, the capital gains tax structure is often organized such that you are incentivized to hold your investment longer, i.e. if you keep your stock investment in place for a long time you will have a lower tax liability when you realize your profit (meaning the short term capital gains tax rate is higher than the long term one) since the goal of the tax is to keep investments in place to discourage volatility.

      But that takes us back to the definition of a bitcoin; is it a commodity? is it a currency? is it an imaginary number with no real relationship to the real world (much like Apple stock)? The exact definition will determine how it can be handled from a tax perspective.

    20. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by jeffmeden · · Score: 2

      Also, it doesn't attract tax if you barter the vegetables for something else.

      ho boy... just a second there, better be careful about what you think isn't taxable: "You must include in gross income in the year of receipt the fair market value of goods and services received in exchange for goods or services you provide or may provide under the bartering arrangement."

      http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html

    21. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by azadrozny · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't you pay the tax in BitCoins? Give Uncle Sam his percentage and let him figure out the street value.

    22. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Additionaly, it would make everyone under 14, not allowed to play a game where items could be sold for cash. Further more, working papers for those ages 14 to 17 would then be required to play. Bit coins too. mmm hmmm!

      If virtual games are removed from 'administrative forbearance' then airline miles are next. (The only 2 things under administrative forbarance currently.)

    23. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For this case you have to think of BitCoins more as a WIP while the computer calculates. Once calculation is finished they wouldn't be profit but would instead be inventory. As such you only claim income once inventory has been purchased. If you have a cost basis your first year which includes the depreciated assets of your computer equipment + electricity burned you would count that into your bottom line. But if you sold no inventory your net worth would go up but your net profit would be negative. When you sell your BitCoins however you don't get to count them as capital gains they would instead be counted at there face value - any operating expenses you incurred in the production, storage, and transportation of the coins.

      You could only count capital gains on BitCoins if you purchased them for X and then sold them for X+Y. That would instead by a currency transfer which is subject to capital gains.

      BitCoins you mine are inventory and as such have no taxable value until converted to currency so a value can be set.

    24. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      You are allowed to take equipment off for small office/home office and they already have the paperwork for that so I'd say that would probably be the best way to do it. A Kill-A-Watt should show you how much juice the mining costs but I don't know if you would have to have a baseline so you can take off just the bitcoin mining or if you can take off the whole system because its required to work, one thing the IRS is good at is taking even a black and white question and making it plaid.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    25. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bitcoin data is tangible.

    26. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by ron_ivi · · Score: 1

      I thought that, in order to be part of the cost basis, you had to be able to attribute the cost to specific bitcoins, rather than have lump expenses for the month/year/whatever.

      Same situation as any physical-world mining company.

      However an oil exploration company accounts for costs related to test wells that ran dry, the same logic should apply to bitcoin blocks.

    27. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no. tax is usary on the currency. If no currency changes hands then government gets no use. Besides they'd have to prove that you bartered goods or services. How would they even track that?

    28. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More likely this is going to be just regular income. And it's always been taxable, it's just the IRS wasn't paying close attention. Anybody making money like this and not claiming it on their taxes could have been penalized at any time. Just as they would for income from bartering.

    29. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      The depreciation of the mining equipment is an overhead expense that reduces reported profit appropriately. (The cost of energy is often the primary expense in gold mining.)

      Bitcoin "mining" would seem similar, but it's a mistake to assume tax law follows any sort of logic or reason.

      You almost got it – and you are right if you mine and sell coins the same year.

      Let’s say in year 1 I have $1 million in cash (electricity) and non-cash expenses in mining bitcoins but I don’t sell any. Can’t reduce profit because I don’t have any. Can’t take a loss because I have not sold any bitcoins.

      Let’s say in year 2 you sell you bitcoins for $2 million. Now is the time you can use that $1 million in expenses from last year.

      Now, one could argue that we are really talking about inventory costs which is technically not costs basis – but that is a subtle point.

    30. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it is congress that makes it complex so its rich masters don't have to pay tax, although they have to pay for an attorney to find all the loopholes.

    31. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      Can we split the difference?

      Congress makes the laws which includes loopholes.

      IRS interprets the rules and puts out regulations. The regulations have logical flaws that create abusive loopholes and are exploited by said tax lawyers. So the IRS puts out another layer of regulations on top of the first. FYI, these issues are my day job which is why I focus on the IRS and not congress.

    32. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      People under 14 are allowed to earn income. I had income prior to 14. Additionally, the IRS doesn't care if you have an illegal job, so long as you pay your taxes on it. Since a state doesn't likely consider mining bitcoins to be a "job" it likely isn't an issue.

      Most people under 14 are federally banned from playing most games, as so many are online, and gather or share information about the player that's illegal to do with regards to 13 and under players/users.

    33. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      This is only a capital gain when you actually intend to hold and/or use the assets rather than turning around and immediately selling them again. When a grocery store buys items wholesale and then sells them to its retail customers, that's not a "capital gain", it's just a retail profit. US tax code requires you to hold an asset for at least a year before selling it in order to claim the capital gains tax rate.

      It's been a while since I day traded, but they were handled as capital gains. And I obviously didn't intend to hold them for more than a few hours. It certainly wouldn't have been a "retail profit".

    34. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Only if you print out the number it represents.

    35. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      They don't need to prove it, unless you fight it all the way to a felony evasion charge. If you are willing to lie on your tax returns and sign it "I lie on my taxes, but you can't prove it", then so be it. Most people don't.

    36. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by fatwilbur · · Score: 1

      Cash flow is where depreciation helps, and that itself is typically most important for a company at the end of the day.

      You spend a lot of capital, but your expenses are classified differently. A bitcoin farmer would spend a lot of money on his computer gear in the first year, but his balance sheet wouldn't change. If he buys $10k in equipment, he now has $10k less cash but a $10k "asset".

      The expenses to run the gear (power, etc) are different - they are true operating expenses, paid with cash and show up on an income statement as an expense.

      Depreciation shows up the same as those expenses, but the beauty is that it's a non-cash expense. The point is to match costs with revenue, so that the reported profit is correct. Otherwise he would spend $10k this year, then next year could report great profit because he basically used "free" gear - from an accounting perspective.

      And the real beauty of a non-cash expense, to put it bluntly, is you get to report less profit that you have to pay tax on, and thus get to keep more of your cash.

    37. Re:Bitcoin mining is not capital gains by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Then how does high frequency trading work? Let me guess, they have a special law for stock.

  10. Turnabout by Cid+Highwind · · Score: 1

    So, if WoW gold is taxable revenue, that means depreciation of your gaming PC and MMO subscription fees become deductible business expenses, right? That should offset any added tax liability nicely.

    --
    0 1 - just my two bits
    1. Re:Turnabout by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      I would look up the IRS’s “hobby” rules before I start deducting anything.

      The example the IRS gives is dog breading. Real dog breeders can deduct subscriptions to dog magazines, cars, housing, dog food, travel to dog shows, etc. A sat-at-home spouse who takes the family dog to the occasional dog show and even sells a pup or two is not a real breeder and does not get to deduct the family’s SUV.

    2. Re: Turnabout by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 1

      That cuts both ways though right? Someone selling a couple pups isn't obligated to pay taxes on that hobby any more than someone having a yard sale, since, if it is just a hobby (not a source of income where deductions can be taken)?

      How would that be much different than someone selling some of their game currency, unless it is filed as a part-time job, at which point it would no longer be a hobby.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    3. Re: Turnabout by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      That is a good question and one that the IRS has not clearly answered. Different offices have issued different opinions over different years. Sometimes it was $200 in profits or $2000 in revenue but don’t quote me on that. Sometimes it meant acting like a business. Sometimes it meant you were following a business plan to viability. Talk to a qualified tax expert. It is a CYA sort of thing. If the IRS figures differently you will owe back taxes and penalties, but not the I was willfully trying to defraud the government and I should go to jail penalties.

    4. Re: Turnabout by Frobnicator · · Score: 1

      It is not very complicated. It is called the '3-of-5' rule:

      If you report a profit in at least 3 of 5 years, it is presumed to be a for-profit business.
      If you report a loss in at least 3 of 5 years, it is presumed to be a not-for-profit hobby.

      But since not all business are always profitable...

      If you don't make a profit for a few years, there is also a 9-factor test the IRS applies if you want them to. Mostly it is useful for startups that want to be considered a business in spite of an economic loss, and for larger corporations that are going through a structured bankruptcy recovery plan.

      --
      //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
  11. EVE Players by maroberts · · Score: 1

    Should make sure their corporations are domiciled in a star system with a low rate of Corporation Tax

    --

    Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
    Karma: Chameleon

    1. Re:EVE Players by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Eve's corporation tax isn't the tax the star system charges the corp, it's the tax the corp charges its members.

  12. Here ya go! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here, have a half million ISK. That should cover it.

    Does this mean I can pay my income tax with virtual currency as well?

    1. Re:Here ya go! by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      Does this mean I can pay my income tax with virtual currency as well?

      yes you can with the chase online virtual currency bank. Only $20 /mo + $1 per transaction (up to $1000) and then 00.8% of transaction after that. Income tax payments are billed as cash advance and come with our cash advance fees.

    2. Re:Here ya go! by PPH · · Score: 1

      US Income taxes must be paid with US currency. This is what gives US (or any other nations') currencies their value. If you can pay in any currency, you would use the most efficient one. But if you must pay in a certain currency, then you have to get hold of some of that.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    3. Re:Here ya go! by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Exactly.. when Germany joined the Eurozone, adoption of the Euro amongst the people was extremely low...

      The solution was for the german government to demand that taxes be paid in Euro's... in one year the use of the Euro went from low percentages to high percentages.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    4. Re:Here ya go! by PPH · · Score: 1

      But here (USA), the trouble is: You must calculate your capital gains in terms of dollars as well.

      If I buy and sell commodities (or whatever) using gold, or a gold-backed currency, inflation is minimal. And so is capital gains. Even if I owe my year-end taxes in dollars, all I'd have to do is to convert some of my real currency into dollars and pay my taxes. Demanding that people compute capital gains in terms of an artificial currency allows a government, or in the case of the United States the Federal reserve to deflate the currency and create false gains.

      And the US gov't wonders why corporations choose to move assets offshore to entities with stable currencies and/or minimal capital gains.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  13. Obligatory by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 0

    Three things are certain:

    Death, taxes, and Bitcoin crash.

    Go buy some more gold.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
    1. Re:Obligatory by Technician · · Score: 1

      I wonder if I can offset my income with the loss of my Neopoints when I closed the account?

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    2. Re:Obligatory by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      There are 4 things.

      Death, taxes, bitcoin crash and gold crash.

      Gold will crash and it's going to happen very unexpectedly for all you people foolish enough to invest in commodities.

    3. Re:Obligatory by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Your haiku has grown a tumor.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    4. Re:Obligatory by camperdave · · Score: 1

      There are 4 things.

      Death, taxes, bitcoin crash and gold crash.

      Gold will crash and it's going to happen very unexpectedly for all you people foolish enough to invest in commodities.

      Meanwhile, my stock in tinfoil has done nothing but go up since the invention of the internet.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    5. Re:Obligatory by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      If you think I'm wearing tinfoil you should look at the history of gold investments. Spot gold investments that involve playing the market can make money, but any long term investment in gold is always negative. Gold can't even beat inflation long term. It's the worst commodity in the world to invest in. Other than some small industrial uses it's basis is 90% emotion and 10% jewelry. Emotion decreases and the price rockets to match what people are willing to pay to wear it.

      Not only that but none of it is EVER lost. Even the industrial uses of gold are recovered. Total lost metal since humans have been mining it is probably less than a ton. So you've got an eternal supply and constant increases in supply from mining (several hundred tons a year). Frankly if the world governments weren't hoarding 90% of the worlds gold supply the price would be near worthless (though industrial use would skyrocket).

      And the one most important rule of gold investing is that no matter what, the small investor gets killed. The only people making money on gold are those selling or holding gold for small investors. Oh there is the occasional gambling win with short term investing but no long term investment in gold has ever even beat inflation and we have almost 100 years of trading to prove it. Gold was $200 in the $90's and once people put their money back into the market it will crash back to the inflation adjusted $200 again. It's the worst investment for a small investor you could ever make. You're better off investing in almost anything else. Hell, no small investor without accurate inside information should be investing in any commodity, they are as unpredictable as futures.

  14. stock market rules and laws? by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Bitcoins are like the market.

    Battle.net Blizzard has to much control.

    1. Re:stock market rules and laws? by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 1

      Battle.net Blizzard has to much control.

      I'm not going to get in a long protracted flame war over whether bitcoins are actual currency or not, so I'll just focus on this point.
      The whole of Battle.net is owned and managed by Blizzard. In what sense does Blizzard have too much control? They have exclusive control as is their rights by creation and provision of the service.

      --
      I got here through a series of tubes
  15. Nobody seems to get this by sunami · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's taxes on transactions involving dollars only. If you buy WoW gold by selling in-game items, there's no expectation of taxation. If you buy WoW gold with dollars, there's a legit reason to tax that transaction.

    1. Re:Nobody seems to get this by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      No, it has nothing to do with dollars.

      There have been companies that paid with script, barter, coupons, barter coupons, etc.

      If you trade one thing for another you have to pay taxes on the real economic value. You can’t avoid taxes by moving to an artificial currency.

      The big difference is between “garage sale” transactions that fall into the hobby category,

    2. Re:Nobody seems to get this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's taxes on transactions involving dollars only. If you buy WoW gold by selling in-game items, there's no expectation of taxation. If you buy WoW gold with dollars, there's a legit reason to tax that transaction.

      It's not quite as simple as that. You can have taxes on business profit even if it is not yet realised in cash - for example you may have done profitable deals just before year-end but the customer is not due to pay until a point in the next year. A US person also can't avoid US taxes by only doing business by barter or in other currencies, whether that means a foreign currency like the Euro or an in-game currency such as WoW gold.

      The issue would be whether an in-game 'gain' corresponds to a real-world 'gain'. For most games the answer would be no, but if there is a liquid market so that in-game 'gains' can be reliably realised as money in the real-world, the answer is not so clear cut. Of course, in almost all cases we are talking about trivial amounts.

    3. Re:Nobody seems to get this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. Next your going to tell me I need to pay taxes when I'm buying my tanks in Red Alert.

    4. Re:Nobody seems to get this by Zynder · · Score: 1

      If you bought the in-game gold with real world dollars, at the very minimum you owe sales tax and it was probably collected by C&C in the hypothetical situation that C&C was a free to play system that sold in game gold-- like Rift does.

  16. Ebay Bucks? by buck-yar · · Score: 1

    Are ebay bucks taxable under income?

    1. Re:Ebay Bucks? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      eBay bucks? What?

    2. Re:Ebay Bucks? by stepdown · · Score: 1

      In the UK at least, unless you are an eBay seller by trade the transaction would fall under capital gains rules.

    3. Re:Ebay Bucks? by stepdown · · Score: 1

      Ignore the above, I wasn't aware that eBay Bucks is a reward program.

    4. Re:Ebay Bucks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, they're like credit card reward points. They're considered a refund, and since it's a return of money you were already taxed on (vs. additional income), they're not taxable.

      Caveat: Bonus reward points not attached to specific spending, like the $100 back after you open an account and use it for three months or something, are considered taxable.

    5. Re:Ebay Bucks? by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Are ebay bucks taxable under income?

      I wouldn't think so. That feels more like a promotional discount (like a coupon). You can't sell them, transfer them, or even use unless you're spending even more money through eBay. Taxing eBay bucks would be like taxing the use of the coupons they print out for you at the grocery store register - those are only "worth" something if you're in the store buying more goods later, at a slightly lower promotional rate.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  17. only if you sell the gold?? and there are limmts by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    only if you sell the gold?? and there are limits to the deductible business expenses.

    and if the IRS wants to be real dicks they can say in game stuff that you have costs $1M + usd so pay up now.

  18. so how would you pay? by lunatick · · Score: 1

    If mining gold in MMORPG's becomes taxable then would you be able to pay in the currency of the game? Will you be able to pay in bitcoins for bitcoin mining?
    Is there anything that the US Government won't try to tax?

    --
    The Lunatick, Carpe Corpus!
    1. Re:so how would you pay? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, as stocks and bonds are taxable, but oddly enough, I can't pay my taxes with stocks, I have to cash them out first.

    2. Re:so how would you pay? by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 1

      Is there anything that the US Government won't try to tax?

      Rich people and Corporations.

      --
      I got here through a series of tubes
    3. Re:so how would you pay? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, medical marijuana

    4. Re:so how would you pay? by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      If mining gold in MMORPG's becomes taxable then would you be able to pay in the currency of the game?

      No.

      Will you be able to pay in bitcoins for bitcoin mining?

      No.

      Is there anything that the US Government won't try to tax?

      Pedophilia.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  19. Kill the Gold sellers... by jythie · · Score: 1

    For the in-game currencies (WoW, EvE, etc), their value as far as the IRS is concerned is pegged to how much it sells for online. Thus if we end up paying taxes on in-game currencies it wil be because of the people who sell it out of game and thus associate a fiat currency value to it.

    1. Re:Kill the Gold sellers... by skinfaxi · · Score: 1

      Could they tax you for owning virtual currency that is against the game's ToS to sell for real money in the first place?

    2. Re:Kill the Gold sellers... by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      But there is a official in game store that you can use to sell for real cash.

    3. Re:Kill the Gold sellers... by jythie · · Score: 1

      Well, that is how they got Al Capone...

    4. Re:Kill the Gold sellers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought all such practices were banned (for wow).

    5. Re:Kill the Gold sellers... by Zynder · · Score: 1

      He meant Diablo 3 which does have a real money auction house that dumps it's earnings into your Battle.net account that can then be xferred to your checking account. I won't doubt one bit though if WoW adds it to thier next xpac. They keep doing all kinds of retarded shit, why not that too?

  20. Why it might not be taxed .... by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    While it's not really "news" that the IRS is once again looking for a source of revenue? I'd argue that there's a strange paradox with the whole thing. If the U.S. govt. starts taxing alternative virtual currencies, that indicates by extension they recognize them as legitimate.

    I thought a big part of the whole battle for acceptance of these new e-currencies was the idea that the govt. would never recognize them as legal tender, out of fear it undermines the official currency it has control over via the Federal Reserve.

    I don't think you can really have this both ways though.... legitimate taxable currency when it works in government's favor and not recognized as valid when it doesn't!

    1. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Take a deep breath.

      They only count as real money when you trade them for real money. Bitcoins are still not money, just an item you can sell like any other thing. If you make a profit selling them, like any other thing, you owe taxes.

      Was that simple enough for you?

    2. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by MondoGordo · · Score: 1
      You might be missing the point(or maybe i am) ...

      I don't think they are proposing taxing the bitcoins (and other virtual property) themselves, but rather the profit derived from them when exchanged for cash or other tangible assets. I'm not a WoW player ... so pardon any inexactitude in the following ... lets say my dark elf has a "sword of power" that I agree to sell to you for $200 ... my elf drops the sword for your dwarf to pick up and you pay me the money... at this point the IRS wants me to declare that $200 as income and pay regular income tax on it ... for now they they are focusing on virtual currency transactions like BCs because these are (or soon will be) trackable in the real world as financial transactions thru BC exchanges ... that doesn't mean they are legitimizing BC per se but rather saying they want their cut of whatever money you make regardless of what imaginary thing or magic process put that money in you're pocket.

      Or put another way ... if you got that money from illegal (or imaginary) activities you still owe them their cut, it doesn't in any way legitimize the illegal (or imaginary) activities.

    3. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However profit = revenue - costs

      Therefore you add your costs to your expenses now, since they want to tax your bitcoins. That includes depreciation costs of your PC, electricity and cooling for your PC, your internet connection, the OS, upkeep, etc.

      This is why this isn't a good idea: not because it's profit that isn't being taxed (the biggest hole is the multinational corps and reduced inheritance tax), but because so many people will now be able to reduce their tax bills when mining a dozen coins a day.

    4. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      They will not be able to lower their tax bills 1 cent.
      You can only take that stuff up to the level of the profit you made. You can't take a loss on your bitcoin mining operation and apply that to your normal taxes. Well, maybe for a short while, but then the IRS will call it a hobby and you will be out of luck.

    5. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by MondoGordo · · Score: 1

      UGH - clearly i meant your*

    6. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The IRS also requires filing and paying taxes on any transaction that exchange value, even if no money was exchanged. This includes bartering. If you barter, you must pay income or sales taxes on the freemarket value of the goods or services exchanged.

      My question is how does this affect Opensource or volunteering in general. What if you set the price at $1 and you exchange a minimum amount of money? Can you skirt the issue this way? If not, could you get in trouble for tax evasion by "under valuing" your goods or services? How does this apply to goods with no direct "free market" value, like art?

    7. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they do it like that, then it's not going to work for the IRS. Once you can exchange bitcoins for (other) goods, you have effectively gained income merely by creating or holding bitcoins. If that isn't taxed, then it's a way to postpone taxes indefinitely.

    8. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except you'd be taxing the profits (in US dollars), not imaginary currencies.

    9. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      How is mining gold dealt with?
      Do you have to pay as you mine it or only when you sell it?

    10. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by lgw · · Score: 1

      You're way off base here. The US government taxes gains made on the sale of collectible Pokemon cards and Beanie Babies. Nothing to do with legal tender.

      Further, the Fed doesn't really care what you use as money privately! Use Euros or Pokemon cards to your hearts content, the Fed doesn't care. The IRS expects payment in US$, and expects to collect profits made in trading anything - currency, corn, or Beanie Babies.

      The Secret Service will be very annoyed with you if you create any confusion between any sort of "money" and US$. Liberty Dollars went down for that - no one would have cared if they weren't "dollars". Try paying in Liberian Dollars and telling people they're really dollars and they'll react the same way.

      The Fed controls the issuing of "US Dollars", and has no reason to care about "alternative virtual currencies" any more than they care about Pesos. It's simply not part of their charter to care.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    11. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume the same way. You write off your expenses, and you report income on selling of the gold. You get taxed on the profit of total income - total expenses. (To put it in the simplest terms.

    12. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by clarkkent09 · · Score: 1

      Technically, you owe taxes even if you don't convert bitcoin into 'real' money. Barter transactions are still taxed. For example if you get paid with goods (say bitcoin, or camels) for some work, you are getting taxed on the fair market value of those goods.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    13. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Sure.
      But if you just hold the bitcoins and do nothing with them you do not. Only when you trade them for something of known value do you incur taxes.

      Just like I don't have any tax burdon just from having $100 in my wallet.

    14. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I'd argue that there's a strange paradox with the whole thing. If the U.S. govt. starts taxing alternative virtual currencies, that indicates by extension they recognize them as legitimate.

      So the IRS declared bootlegging "legitimate" when they sent Al Capone to prison for not reporting his illegal gains? I'm not sure your logic holds up.

    15. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Well, maybe for a short while, but then the IRS will call it a hobby and you will be out of luck.

      A hobby is something that could never be profitable (buying lead minitures and spending $5 in paint on each one that cost you $5 and selling them for $10 to make back your costs, you do it because you like painting). Mining bitcoins "could" be profitable if there is a reasonable chance that your plan, extended to the future, would reasonable result in a profit. Yes, that means that you could depreciate your computer over 20 years, take 20 years of losses, and expect to make $1 profit in year 21 and it wouldn't be a hobby.

      Hobbies aren't about whether they "do" make money, but whether they should be reasonable expected to, at some identifiable point in the future.

    16. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      They don't accept the taxes paid in Bitcoin.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    17. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by gronofer · · Score: 1

      Bitcoins can be defined as money or not, as you prefer. "Real money" can mean anything that people are willing to use as money. Many countries will certainly tax income received in foreign currencies, even if it is not converted back to the "real money" issued by that country.

      Especially when you consider that government-issued fiat money is just made up on the spot and has no real backing, anymore than bitcoin does.

    18. Re:Why it might not be taxed .... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You certainly can deduct business expenses in excess of your revenue. I've done it. The thing is, it has to be an actual business intended to make money. You can deduct hobby expenses (for example) only up to hobby revenue, and that applies to most other revenue.

      When I was deducting business expenses, I was told that the IRS has a three-of-five rule. If your business is profitable three years in five, then they assume you're a legit business unless they find out otherwise (and they're unlikely to). If it isn't profitable three years out of five, the IRS is going to assume that it's probably a fake business intended as a tax dodge, and you'd better be prepared to show them that you're operating a true business.

      You really can't buy anything real-world useful with WoW gold, so the IRS will only tax you on what you sell it for, and you can deduct your subscription cost up to your revenue (if you're running a real business, even if illicit, the IRS is a touch more generous). Suppose I have extra WoW gold and want to buy a computer with it. I'll first convert it to real money (and that's taxed) and then buy the computer.

      Bitcoins, on the other hand, are a sort of currency in themselves. You can buy things directly with bitcoins (as bitcoin proponents point out whenever there's a /. article on bitcoins), and therefore they're taxable just like money. If I mine bitcoins and use them to buy a computer, I now have a computer, just as if I'd farmed cash (which I do about 40 hours a week, really). You can of course deduct your expenses, but you're going to owe taxes.

      Note: I am neither a lawyer nor an accountant. This is neither legal nor illegal advice. Consult an actual reliable source before relying on anything I say. This posting is not for use in operating nuclear power plants, etc.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  21. Government has the only Iwin button :( by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    Senator: What good is this "electricity"?

    Engineer: Sir, in 20 years, you'll be taxing it.

    You were warned. It's only a matter of time before auction house trades are considered sales, because the virtual iyems can be converted to real-world cash by black market, and, increasingly, official cash conversion markets.

    Remember: Government is voracious for cash to buy votes ladeling it out. Their only calculus is, "Will I get more votes than I lose doing this?". End of story.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  22. that's bullshit by slashmydots · · Score: 0

    Bitcoins are literally spontaneously created out of nowhere at a rate of 25 per 10 minutes. If you're mining them, you're not getting paid by anyone. How can they tax something like that? That's ridiculous. With capital gains, you're getting the money from someone or something. Money randomly appearing is a different story. I could see the pool system being seen as compensation for work done but if you're solo mining, I still think it's not taxable under any current tax code.

    1. Re:that's bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think bitcoins are money that come out of thin air, you don't understand what money is.

    2. Re:that's bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But he would make a great POTUS!

    3. Re:that's bullshit by lgw · · Score: 1

      It's certainly taxable - basically everything is in the US. IANAA, but I'd assume they work like paintings. Buy them for dollars and then sell them for dollars? Capital gain on a collectable (a brutal tax category). Make them and sell them for dollars? Business income (and you probably owe sales taxes too). Use or accept them for physical goods or services? Taxed like any barter transaction - you owe based on the economic value of goods received.

      If you fix someone's plumbing and are paid with a chicken, and the IRS somehow learns of this, they're still going to want taxes on the transaction - taxed paid in dollars, not drumsticks.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    4. Re:that's bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you implying that US dollars AREN'T created out of nowhere ? /sheesh

    5. Re:that's bullshit by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      No one posted this yet?

      Tax his land, tax his wage,
      Tax his bed in which he lays.
      Tax his tractor, tax his mule,
      Teach him taxes is the rule.

      Tax his cow, tax his goat,
      Tax his pants, tax his coat.
      Tax his ties, tax his shirts,
      Tax his work, tax his dirt.

      Tax his chew, tax his smoke,
      Teach him taxes are no joke.
      Tax his car, tax his grass,
      Tax the roads he must pass.

      Tax his food, tax his drink,
      Tax him if he tries to think.
      Tax his sodas, tax his beers,
      If he cries, tax his tears.

      Tax his bills, tax his gas,
      Tax his notes, tax his cash.
      Tax him good and let him know
      That after taxes, he has no dough.

      If he hollers, tax him more,
      Tax him until he's good and sore.
      Tax his coffin, tax his grave,
      Tax the sod in which he lays.

      Put these words upon his tomb,
      "Taxes drove me to my doom!"
      And when he's gone, we won't relax,
      We'll still be after the inheritance tax.

    6. Re:that's bullshit by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      and are paid with a chicken

      Even better, if you got a chicken for $3.50 worth of work a few years ago, and sell it today, while it's still worth one chicken, it's worth 7 USD, so the IRS will want tax on the $3.50 'profit' you made.

      Inflation and capital gains taxes lets the government steal the same money from people at least three times.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  23. Seems like crossing a line by erroneus · · Score: 1

    If I were to do business in Japan and moved money in and out of a Japanese account for my business in Japan, does the IRS have the right to tax my business in Japan?

    The IRS taxes on US business activity... in US currency. Not sure I agree with the IRS getting involved with something like this especially since I think they really don't understand what they are getting involved in.

    1. Re:Seems like crossing a line by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real problem the IRS faces here is that the taxation would happen when the profit becomes "realized". As in, they exchange gold from a game into US dollars while a US resident. The IRS would say that this person realized a profit and owes taxes on that. They wouldn't be able to tax the currency directly, much like they can't tax stock gains until they are realized, even when all the activity happens within the US.

      However, just like cash transactions, how does it work when I trade cash (USD) for a virtual currency with my friends? The IRS can't really track that any better than a pure cash transaction.

    2. Re:Seems like crossing a line by Angrywhiteshoes · · Score: 1

      If I were to do business in Japan and moved money in and out of a Japanese account for my business in Japan, does the IRS have the right to tax my business in Japan?

      The IRS taxes on US business activity... in US currency. Not sure I agree with the IRS getting involved with something like this especially since I think they really don't understand what they are getting involved in.

      The IRS taxes Americans on American income. Bitcoin is income for most people involved. They should pay taxes on it.

      I already claim it as income.

    3. Re:Seems like crossing a line by camperdave · · Score: 1

      The IRS, like all US government agencies, has jurisdiction over the entire planet. Just ask them.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  24. All Money is an Illusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your 1s and 0s are as taxable as your "real" money. Common denominator: they're both an illusion and used to control you.

  25. Because THIS is the root of the financial problem by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

    Not that we spend more than we take in, or could possibly take in. No, it's people swapping WoW-bucks or Bitcoins or pesos or whatever that destabilize the bloated welfare states of the West.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  26. Virtual campaign ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... in WoW to behead all tax collectors is under way. Shall we extend this to the real world?

  27. Obviously by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

    One should pay these new taxes in virtual currency. Otherwise the government must establish an official means of determining an exchange rate which in turn legitimizes the virtual currency.

    1. Re:Obviously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They already legitimized it in April, that's why the price went so far up.

  28. Dear US gov't supporting terrorists in Syria and by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    elsewhere with out tax revenues. Let me show you our middle finger.

  29. Hobby Income by ilikenwf · · Score: 2

    Up to $12,000 or so you can consider it hobby income, as long as you can prove you're in it more for the curiosity/hobby of it.

    1. Re:Hobby Income by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [Citation Needed]

    2. Re:Hobby Income by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Up to $9,999.99

      Once you hit that $10,000.00 mark the IRS gets involved.

    3. Re:Hobby Income by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I believe that you can only exclude hobby income up to the amount you spend on the hobby, with the max being $12,000.

      So you can take pictures and sell them, but if you only spend $1000 on camera equipment and sell pics for $2000, then there is $1000 that is taxable. If you spend $300 a year on painting supplies and sell a painting for $300, you can deduct that income entirely.

      So you can deduct the expenditures for your hobby from any -incidental- income it provides. You need to document that though. And the max is $12,000 (or so) because its not considered a "hobby" if it makes you that much money, over that amount its a business and you may need a business license if you want to deduct those expenditures.

  30. Possible - sort of by sjbe · · Score: 2

    Honest question: can you actually count the cost of equipment and electricity toward the cost basis of your bitcoins?

    There are ways to do it if you do it through a business. You could deduct some expenses and you could do the home office deduction. The computer would need to be owned by the business and used primarily for business purposes. There also could be depreciation and other fun involved. Frankly I doubt there would be much profit in it but that's a separate issue.

    Note that claiming a home office deduction significantly increases your chance of being audited. It's one of the items the IRS looks for because it is abused so often.

  31. Long versus short term capital gains by sjbe · · Score: 1

    US tax code requires you to hold an asset for at least a year before selling it in order to claim the capital gains tax rate.

    That's for the long term capital gains rate. There is a short term capital gain rate too.

  32. Bitcoins have a market value by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Until then, it's a number with no intrinsic value.

    There is no such thing as "intrinsic value". There is either a market for an asset or there is not. Bitcoins have a market value (there are exchanges after all) and that is what the IRS would consider when evaluating how much income you made from mining bitcoins. Items are valued (usually) at the lesser of either cost or market value. That doesn't necessarily make mining or using bitcoins a good idea but they clearly do have a (volatile) market value.

    1. Re:Bitcoins have a market value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't own a number. A number merely is. BitCoin mining is the process of finding that number.

      Since you can't own a number, a number has no value, intrinsic or otherwise. Now somebody might be willing to pay you to reveal a number. That's when the taxable event occurs.

    2. Re:Bitcoins have a market value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So I guess you don't own the money in your bank account. After all, it's just a number on a computer somewhere.

    3. Re:Bitcoins have a market value by Shark · · Score: 1

      That's one of the arguments against fiat currencies, yes. There isn't material value backing them up, just the government's word that "we're good for it". Incidently, they go up in flames when the government backing them stops acting in a fiscally responsible way and attempt to monetize away their debt. See Zimbabwe or the Weimar republic (Germany) for historical examples and, without some very radical changes in current trends, most USD-backed currencies for future examples ;)

      --
      Mind the frickin' laser...
  33. Unrealized gain by sjbe · · Score: 1

    The gain is the difference between 1) the selling price of the financial asset after the mathematics (or after WoW achievement) and 2) the purchase price of the intangible asset before the mathematics (or before the WoW achievement).

    Precisely speaking that is an unrealized gain because it has not been coverted into cash or some other asset.

    1. Re:Unrealized gain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The barter regulations probably figure in here too if you exchange Bitcoin for something rather than selling them.

  34. Can I Pay? by fuzznutz · · Score: 1

    Can I pay my tax liability with monopoly money?

  35. Bitcoin mining is income by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Only if you make real money do you have to pay.

    Not necessarily true. The IRS may consider it income if it has a market value which Bitcoins do. Whether the asset is tangible or intangible is not relevant. You could receive an intangible asset like a copyright and in some circumstances that could be considered income.

    Right now the numbers are small enough that the IRS doesn't much care but technically speaking mining bitcoins IS income and has to be declared on your 1040. Line 21 if nowhere else. In fact you have to declare income from any source, even illegal drug sales which is why Line 21 exists.

  36. Bitcoins are an asset by sjbe · · Score: 2

    Until I can purchase gas, groceries, and beer with Bitcoins or Battle.net Gold, it's not a real currency.

    Doesn't have to be a currency to be an asset. As long as it has a market value the IRS can consider it income. Bitcoins might be a bad idea (I think they are) but they can be exchanged for cash or other assets. The IRS will not remotely care whether you can buy beer with them directly or not.

    I do know of one drug dealer in my area that accepts bitcoin, but he's not paying taxes on that income already anyway so fake money is fine for him.

    Then he is in violation of the tax code. Specifically his income is supposed to be declared on Line 21 of the 1040 which exists specifically for cases like this. That is how they put Al Capone in jail - they nailed him for tax evasion. Income is supposed to be declared regardless or source or legality.

  37. "the IRS makes this stuff complicated fast." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Especially if you names your company the Constitutional Liberty Tea Party Bitcoin Mining Operation Incorporated.

  38. Bitcoins mining is taxable income by sjbe · · Score: 1

    If you hold Bitcoins, they have no cash value, and thus are not taxable.

    Not remotely true. Bitcoins have a market value and can be exchanged for cash. The rules are no different than those for barter. If you mine bitcoins you are realizing taxable income in the form of an asset with value and I promise you that the IRS will consider it taxable. You can be taxed on income in the form of assets other than cash. If you give someone (not family) a car they have to pay tax on the value they received. Happens all the time to winners of prizes.

    1. Re:Bitcoins mining is taxable income by gorzek · · Score: 1

      Then I suppose all the IRS would need to do is state what cash value they determine Bitcoins to have for a given tax year, so you can pay tax on them appropriately.

      Again: not complicated.

  39. Virtual Tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What about the Real Money Auction House in Diablo 3, is that taxed already or will it be included in this proposed virtual tax?

  40. Dog breading? by big_e_1977 · · Score: 1

    If you are into dog breading, I'd say that your particular tax situation is more comparable to that of a typical Chinese Restaurant.

  41. Not shocked by bschmer · · Score: 1

    It is any surprise that the government comes after every "profit" but they don't give you credit for every "loss"? Just ask someone who's been screwed by the apparent value of a stock option vs the real value....

  42. Re:Because THIS is the root of the financial probl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not that we spend more than we take in, or could possibly take in. No, it's people swapping WoW-bucks or Bitcoins or pesos or whatever that destabilize the bloated welfare states of the West.

    They're related. USD only has value if it's required for taxes, so widespread tax evasion would reduce its growth rate and the government's ability to inflate it. There's a good reason we don't have a balanced budget amendment - sometimes deficit spending is good, or necessary to stabilize the economy. If you could actually get away with using WoW gold or Buttcoins to evade taxes, the government could only be a fraction of its current size. That sounds awesome to libertarians, but in real life they wouldn't cut defense spending until after they had cut useful social programs and hunted down everything that still COULD be taxed. Hello property taxes, hello housing crisis 2.0!

    So the IRS is doing the right thing by nipping this in the bud - the economy is still in recovery and rampant speculation on imaginary money will only hurt the public interest.

  43. In other news.... by sconeu · · Score: 3, Funny

    The IRS has ruled that all Monopoly(r) winnings will be taxed at the full capital gains rate

    --
    General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  44. This makes sense, in a way by davidwr · · Score: 1

    As soon as the "virtual" currency is traded for something in the real world, I would call that a "taxable event."

    If it's traded "in-world" then I would hope the IRS would leave you alone until you incurred a "taxable event" unless perhaps the "in-world" things were proxies for real-world things. For example, if there was an "in-world bank" that let you make "e-coin-of-the-realm" deposits and there was a real-world "liquid" market for "e-coin-of-the-realm" money AND the predominant use of "e-coin-of-the-realm" deposits were to hold "money" until it was cashed out "in the real world" vs. to "hold money" until it was later spent "in-world," the IRS would be right to consider treating such deposits as if they were a "cash-out" into the real world. However, they should (but likely won't) give people a break until they issue specific guidance saying "From [some future date forward] deposits into this bank in this virtual world will be considered the same as a cash-out for tax purposes, and here is why" and issues similar guidance for any other "online banks" whose transactions meet the same criteria (fair is fair).

    Now, don't forget, you only have to pay for your profit. If you mine bitcoins for business, all direct business costs are generally deductible. Electricity, the costs of hardware that are dedicated to mining, etc. For in-game entrepreneurship that you later cash in on, any "real-world" expenses might be deductible if you could demonstrate that the expense really was a business expense not an entertainment expense ("good luck with that" for online games, but for non-entertainment virtual-goods/currency entrepreneurship I would expect you to have a fighting chance).

    This can even provide a small tax-write-off against your personal taxes as long as it doesn't trigger "hobby disguised as a business" rules. If you are doing it as a hobby you can generally deduct up to your gross profit, leaving you with a "net profit" of no lower than zero. This means there's no write-off against your other income but at least you won't pay taxes on your "gross" gains from mining.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  45. The IRS by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    We're here to make the NSA look good.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:The IRS by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      And vice versa.

  46. Re:Obviously FX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One should pay these new taxes in virtual currency. Otherwise the government must establish an official means of determining an exchange rate which in turn legitimizes the virtual currency.

    I know, I know. Someone on the internet is wrong.

    Let me explain this. TL;DR? - FX. Simple?

    Long version. Currency is simply something used in lieu of barter. You can use USD. You can use Euro. You can use shinny rocks. You can use gold. You can use company stock. You can use WoW currency if you will. Now, almost all of the online games go to extreme lengths to say "you do not own shit - it is all ours. virtual currency has NO value. exchanging said currency for RL currency is against EULA." etc. etc. They do not only do this to cover their asses (see, money laundering legislation), they also do this to cover the asses of their customers (income taxes).

    In almost any nation, the *only* currency that has any value is the local currency. So in most of EU, it is the Euro. In Canada, it is the CND. In US, it is USD. Outside these jurisdictions, the said currencies do not have value. You cannot pay taxes with these currencies. And that is what taxes are used for - to pay taxes and help you get stuff.

    So what happens when you buy and sell stuff? When you buy stuff, you pay VAT (maybe). When you sell stuff, you pay capital gains. There are exceptions, of course, (eg. small amount of gains is neglected in most jurisdictions). Now, it does NOT matter if you use local currency or shinny rocks for this transaction. Each transaction must be translated into local currency along with supporting documentation. If you barter, that is still taxable. If you use currencies that are not recognized by your taxation dept. as currencies (like WoW currency, or shiny rocks, or oil, or BitCoin or chicken entrails or similar), then barter rules apply. If you use currencies that are recognized (generally only ones where FX exchange rate is given by your local central bank!), then it becomes a little easier to document your tax liabilities.

    Basically, you have to calculate the cost of acquiring the said "asset" (bitcoin, shiny, etc.) or "currency" (USD, Euro, Yen, Chilean peso, etc.), and the market value of asset your are acquiring. Then the difference is either a loss or gain. If you have more gains then losses, you have to report it. If you have more losses then gains, you may be able to subtract them from future gains.

    It does not matter what you exchange for what. Each transaction is either a loss or a gain. Generally consumers do not have to worry about this kind of stuff because all they do is buy things they use up or sell at a lower price.

    As for people arguing that BTC has "no value" and should not be taxed because they "invented it", well, why oil companies need to pay income taxes then? They dig stuff up. They pay royalties. They pay property taxes. Why are they then paying income taxes on oil when they sell it? Same for BTC ;)

    Now finally, can we end with BTC adverts on slashdot??

  47. And. . . . by bogidu · · Score: 0

    the overreaching US Government destroys yet even more emerging technology.

  48. I'll be happy to pay taxes on it when.... by Gman2725 · · Score: 1

    I can also deduct my market losses from my taxes when the prices tank on the exchanges. Also, if they're declaring Bitcoin profits taxable, does this mean we can no start deducting mining hardware expense as well as claiming depreciation of the same hardware each year it's in use? Only seems fair to me.

  49. This has been "Understood" for some time. by Richy_T · · Score: 1

    This is no surprise to anyone who's studied Bitcoin in the slightest. Bitcoin mining, speculation and investment has many precedents in many other operations (currency trading, traditional mining etc). What's nice about Bitcoin is that when they want their slice, it has to be transferred explicitly. The can't just (mis)appropriate and divvy it out to wealthy bankers by the magic of inflation and the Federal Reserve.

  50. Perfectly reasonable by mattack2 · · Score: 1

    If you are using a machine that would otherwise be off, don't you pay more in electricity to run the machine doing the mining than you earn? I thought previous reports have said this. (Maybe if you already have a server running it can be worthwhile.

    While it does seem odd at first to tax this, *once one agrees to the idea of any income tax at all*, this seems perfectly reasonable. Bitcoins are transferrable to U.S. currency, and since you have to pay taxes on your salary, why wouldn't you have to pay taxes on any other income you received?

  51. re: way off base? by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    I beg to differ. The only reason they care about such things as selling Beanie Babies or trading cards is because to them, those objects are simply items of value, which don't function as a currency. When one is exchanged for U.S. dollars, the IRS wants a cut of the profits.

    Bitcoin, Litecoin and other such inventions are designed and intended to function as substitutes for U.S. dollars. The plan for them is to allow buying and selling other goods of value (such as those trading cards or Beanie Babies) using the virtual currency. As long as the vast majority prefers to deal in the official U.S. currency instead, Bitcoin type e-money will be dealt with a little more like a stock or mutual fund -- where people want to buy and sell it in an attempt to come out with more U.S. currency than they started with. But there's an underlying design to allow for this stuff to work as a competing or even substitute currency for the U.S. dollar.

    I predict the govt. WILL eventually decide to try to take down Bitcoin and variants as a "threat to National Security" (their favorite excuse for such behaviors).

  52. Re: way off base? by lgw · · Score: 1

    That's a nice, terse statement of the paranoid conspiracy theory. Of course, there's no evidence for it. I'm not sure there's even an agency chartered to care about it. If banks started making unregulated loans in Bitcoins - making them "eurobitcoins" the Fed might care, but banks can already play games with "euroeuros" and any regulatory framework from the Fed wouldn't be bitcoin-specific.

    If US citizens suddenly needed an alternative currency, Euros, or Canadian dollars, or Yen, or Pounds work fine as one. Yes, there are people who believe that all national currencies the world over are about to collapse, but the only sensible currency in that case is ammunition (and some bunker-dwellers actually do use ammunition as an alternative currency - go figure).

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  53. NOTHING. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think we have had enough of the IRS gang and the NWO and Obama. Withold all taxes.

  54. Second Life tax by Cito · · Score: 1

    Wonder when they are going to try and tax Linden dollar transfers

    I sell quite a bit of scripts in Second Life which sells in Linden dollars then you can transfer that money to US Dollars via paypal at around 260ish lindens per 1 us dollar.

    people like Anshe Chung was the first to make over 1 million us dollars in second life selling real estate and clothing

    I do more like 100-300/mo

  55. Virtual currency by mknewman · · Score: 1

    Does this mean I can pay my taxes in ISK now?

  56. Re: way off base? by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    Call it a conspiracy theory if you like, but I think it's a pretty legitimate summary.....

    If U.S. citizens needed an alternative currency, that would be because the U.S. dollar started failing them, right? If that happens, it's pretty closely tied to other markets. We don't live in an economic vacuum..... I doubt converting to the Euro or Canadian dollar would be much of a solution.

    At the same time, I really don't follow the logic of the "survivalist" types who want to hoard up ammo and believe that's the only sensible answer for "when it all falls apart". What's the real plan there? Just start shooting people to get what you need? If we're all so lacking in any kind of moral compass or care for anyone other than ourselves that absent of a strong central government, we're all going to revert to savages trying to kill each other to obtain their possessions? They may as well shoot me... I don't want to hang around anymore in that world.

    I do, however, see where there could be very compelling reasons to switch to a decentralized currency, not subject to any arbitrary rules imposed by governments .... And by extension, I see why a government with a currency not really backed by anything tangible, would find this alternative a threat.

  57. Re: way off base? by Rob_Bryerton · · Score: 1

    At the same time, I really don't follow the logic of the "survivalist" types who want to hoard up ammo and believe that's the only sensible answer for "when it all falls apart". What's the real plan there? Just start shooting people to get what you need? If we're all so lacking in any kind of moral compass or care for anyone other than ourselves that absent of a strong central government, we're all going to revert to savages trying to kill each other to obtain their possessions?

    No. It's to protect your family and your possessions (food, water, working automobiles w/fuel, etc). When (not if) the economy crashes, all social services will break down. These things (among others) cease to exist/function: police forces, grocery stores (food supplies), water supplies, electricity... "law & order" will cease to exist and from then on out it is survival of the fittest. Is it starting to make sense now?

    They may as well shoot me... I don't want to hang around anymore in that world.

    Oh, don't worry, "they" will. If you are in or around any urban area, you'll last 2-4 weeks at most with that pacifist attitude.

    I read an excellent story on some guy's blog describing the chaos that ensued when the economy crashed in Argentina (I believe it was Argentina, I may be wrong, but it was a South American country). The story went down pretty much how I described it above, which is why I posted that comment. The only things that saved this guy and his family was the fact that he was armed, and they got the hell out of the city. He didn't actually have to kill anyone in self defense, but there were several occasions where people tried to relieve him of his property, and by having a rifle in plain view, he was able to keep what was his and run the rats off.

    Scary stuff, straight out of Mad Max...

  58. Re: way off base? by Rob_Bryerton · · Score: 1

    http://www.google.com/search?q=argentine+economic+crisis+blog

    Lots of fascinating reading there. Sleep tight :)

  59. Re: way off base? by lgw · · Score: 1

    If U.S. citizens needed an alternative currency, that would be because the U.S. dollar started failing them, right? If that happens, it's pretty closely tied to other markets. We don't live in an economic vacuum..... I doubt converting to the Euro or Canadian dollar would be much of a solution

    Every other time in fiat currency history, when a fiat currency has blown up, people have just switched to using a fiat currency that is fine (usually the US dollar). If they all fail together, then it's Mad Max - there's a reason the "who runs Barter Town" jokes are common on conservative blogs. But that hasn't happened before.

    If the euro blows up by itself, they can use dollars, and if they get their at together before the dollar blows up we can then use neweuros (or marks, or whatever).

    I do, however, see where there could be very compelling reasons to switch to a decentralized currency, not subject to any arbitrary rules imposed by governments .... And by extension, I see why a government with a currency not really backed by anything tangible, would find this alternative a threat.

    Bitcoin: also not really backed by anything tangible. Bitcoin: subject to arbitrary rules imposed by governments. Currency is simply not that important - only a trivial amount of the nation's wealth is in the form of currency. Wealth is ownership of land and businesses, which have value just as long as law and order are maintained. When that stops, you'll need that gun in any case.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  60. Illogical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The idea that every transaction is taxable is both illogical and mathematically unsustainable.

  61. GAO did not refer to WOW by Camael · · Score: 1

    The slashdot summary is wrong.

    In the actual GAO report, WOW was not even mentioned by name once.

    In fact, at the very start, the report says :-

    Transactions within virtual economies or using virtual currencies could produce taxable income in various ways, depending on the facts and circumstances of each transaction. For example, transactions within a "closed-flow" virtual currency system do not produce taxable income because a virtual currency can be used only to purchase virtual goods or services. An example of a closed-flow transaction is the purchase of items to use within an online game. In an "openflow" system, a taxpayer who receives virtual currency as payment for real goods or services may have earned taxable income since the virtual currency can be exchanged for real goods or services or readily exchanged for governmentissued currency, such as U.S. dollars.

    TFA makes it clear the only people who may be taxed are the gold-sellers who sell in game goods for real money on third party exchanges/websites outside of the game.

    The WOW 1%ers are safe.

  62. But it's still OK for Mitt Romney by mark_reh · · Score: 0

    to keep his millions in the Caymans.

  63. Gold standards are a dumb idea by sjbe · · Score: 1

    That's one of the arguments against fiat currencies, yes. There isn't material value backing them up, just the government's word that "we're good for it".

    And it is a silly argument. What backs up ANY asset is nothing more than the belief by people that it has value. What makes you think the promise to deliver the material backing up the currency is in any way an iron-clad guarantee? How can you be sure the other party actually has the gold to back up their dollars? Backing a currency with another asset like gold gives some people a (misplaced) degree of comfort but only because they really haven't thought it through. Having one asset (fiat currency) based on the value of another asset (gold) doesn't change what gives either one value (belief). Worse it makes it difficult to adjust policy to deal with economic ups and downs.

    There are many important things that backers of the gold standard tend to overlook. The foremost is that the promise to (theoretically) exchange some amount of gold for a dollar is nothing more than a promise that can be broken. There is no way to force an unwilling government to actually hand over gold in exchange for dollars. Worse there is no way to truly be certain the other party actually has the gold they say they do. The "backing" is just theoretical. It's an IOU, no different than your "we're good for it" of a fiat currency AND it introduces a host of logistical, policy and administrative challenges.

    Incidently, they go up in flames when the government backing them stops acting in a fiscally responsible way and attempt to monetize away their debt.

    A gold standard (or equivalent fixed monetary base) does not prevent a government from doing irresponsible things nor does it prevent bad things from happening. Worse it does prevent governments from doing many necessary and responsible things especially during a financial crisis.

    1. Re:Gold standards are a dumb idea by Shark · · Score: 1

      How can you be sure the other party actually has the gold to back up their dollars?

      If there is a confidence issue with their currency, you request ability to perform your own audit.

      There is no way to force an unwilling government to actually hand over gold in exchange for dollars.

      That is not at all the point. The point is that if a government starts inflating its currency and cheating you out of value, you can demand that audit to confirm, and stop accepting their phony currency if they fail at either. You can't force them to hand over the gold (except, you know, by using actual force), but they can't force you to accept their overinflated, poorly managed currency either. Then it becomes their problem that nobody wants to trade with them in exchange for that bogus currency.

      The logistical, policy and administrative challenges you mention are there as *safeguards* against inflationary practices. Yes, I mean that if your economy does stupid things, you can't bail it out by just issuing more currency. The people who made poor investments get to experience consequences.

      --
      Mind the frickin' laser...
  64. Assets and taxes by sjbe · · Score: 1

    You can't own a number. A number merely is. BitCoin mining is the process of finding that number.

    It also is an economic activity that results in gaining an asset. More on that below.

    Since you can't own a number, a number has no value, intrinsic or otherwise. Now somebody might be willing to pay you to reveal a number. That's when the taxable event occurs.

    Tidy argument but quite wrong. First off, it isn't just "a number", it is an asset in the same way the number that represents my bank balance is an asset. Bitcoins are an asset. An asset is ANYTHING (tangible or intangible) that is owned or controlled to that can reasonably be expected to produce future economic value. Bitcoins clearly fit this definition as they have a non-zero economic value to other people and they can be owned/controlled. Second, the earliest taxable event occurs when the asset is obtained/controlled ("mined" in this case) because it becomes property at that point. Mining is actually a fairly good term here because it is little different than if you dug gold or oil out of the ground. In formal accounting terms it is a current asset. The big difference is that oil or gold would be inventory whereas bitcoins would be considered cash or cash equivalents. When you acquire cash equivalents or acquire the reasonable expectation of receiving cash equivalents (accounts receivable), you are considered to have income. Income is taxable. So is property. It would be no different than digging up a coin you found on the beach because that is income.

  65. But... But... by DiEx-15 · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't the IRS tax Blizzard or the MMO company instead of the players, since in Blizzard's and others' TOS it clearly says you don't own the virtual property? That'd include the in-game currency and any transactions with said in-game currency.

    I can understand Bitcoin, but not WoW or any other MMO.