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US Director of National Intelligence Admits He Was Wrong About Data Collection

Gunkerty Jeb writes "In a highly unusual move, James Clapper, the director of national intelligence, said Tuesday that he misspoke when he told a Congressional committee in March that the National Security Agency does not collect data on millions of Americans. Clapper said at the time that the agency does not do so 'wittingly,' but in a letter to the chair of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Clapper admitted this statement was 'erroneous.' Clapper, the top U.S. intelligence official, has been quite vocal in his defense of the NSA's now-public surveillance programs such as PRISM and the metadata collection program. In statements published shortly after the leak of classified documents by Edward Snowden about those collection efforts Clapper said that they both have been repeatedly authorized by Congress and the executive and judicial branches over the years."

187 of 296 comments (clear)

  1. The fall guy by Phoeniyx · · Score: 2

    has been handpicked!! Wonder what he's getting under the table for his "selfless sacrifice"?

    1. Re:The fall guy by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 4, Funny

      has been handpicked!!

      Wonder what he's getting under the table for his "selfless sacrifice"?

      The NSA will be removing the surveillance devices in his bedroom and the toiletbowl camera in his bathroom.

      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
    2. Re:The fall guy by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wonder what he's getting under the table for his "selfless sacrifice"?

      Well, he's had his passport revoked, is being hunted around the world, and is being vilified in almost all public media.

      Oh, wait....

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    3. Re:The fall guy by CunningPike · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not forgotting (seeminly multiple) countries closing their airspace on the chance that you might be on board.

      --
      | What, you were expecting
      -O_O- +---- something witty?
    4. Re:The fall guy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wonder what he's getting under the table for his "selfless sacrifice"?

      Well, he's had his passport revoked, is being hunted around the world, and is being vilified in almost all public media.

      Oh, wait....

      Most US public media, Snowden is getting mostly neutral or positive press everywhere else.

    5. Re:The fall guy by bfandreas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ...and in the end only China and Russia will emerge from this dungheap smelling of roses.
      Can't we simply say that the Western Ideals have been abandoned so we can safely watch "$COUNTRY Got Talent", wave our flags and pretend we are still worthy to be proud of? Surely?

      --
      20 minutes into the future
    6. Re:The fall guy by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      He will get promoted to a good position inside of the Ministry of Truth.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    7. Re:The fall guy by cayenne8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He will get promoted to a good position inside of the Ministry of Truth.

      However, pertaining to his immediate future...isn't he bound to current laws dealing with lying under oath to Congress?

      Should he not be getting a "Go To Jail" card, and bypass Go"?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    8. Re:The fall guy by bfandreas · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In the European press you mostly get embarrassed reactions since nobody is able to shelter him.

      Whistleblower/traitor.
      Freedom fighter/terrorist.

      --
      20 minutes into the future
    9. Re:The fall guy by TheP4st · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most US public media, Snowden is getting mostly neutral or positive press everywhere else.

      While that is true, the balance between reports on Snowden and the actual leaks is disturbingly focused on Snowden rather than the leaks themselves. While I empathize with Snowdens current situation and admire his courage I am not of the opinion that the girlfriend he left behind and similar material that belong in gossip columns is more news worthy than the actual leaks.

      --
      "I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
    10. Re:The fall guy by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Clapper is still lying.

      He says "erroneous" when it is evident the correct term is "mendacious" or "duplicitous".

      Who thinks they will ever get close to a real answer, when questioning spies and their masters?

      This guy is in charge of the Ministry of Lies. Testimony means nothing to him.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    11. Re:The fall guy by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Please get on with the times. It's called Ministry of Truth.

    12. Re:The fall guy by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Even in cases where someone lies in court, you are generally allowed to restate answers, without immediately being hit with perjury charges. The understanding is that it is better to get the truth eventually than it is to immediately drop the hammer on a liar.

      If you immediately prosecuted people for perjury when they changed their statements, many would simply bunker down, continue to lie, and perhaps make things even harder to get to the bottom of in the process of covering their own ass. Bear in mind, the government operates on the principle that they can do enough to you to make you afraid of them, but should not do so much that you contest their actions or even rebel totally. For instance, that's why you get "deals" on speeding tickets and the "convenience" of sending them in without a court appearance. The courts would become completely unworkable if everyone who was issued a ticket was to appear and plead not guilty simply due to the extra time requirements of proving even open and shut cases.

    13. Re: The fall guy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      He was given several opportunities after his statement to revise it and still refused.

    14. Re:The fall guy by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2

      "The two aims of the Party are to conquer the whole surface of the earth and to extinguish once and for all the possibility of independent thought"

      -- George Orwell, 1984

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    15. Re:The fall guy by buchner.johannes · · Score: 2

      Many are willing, but legislation requires being inside the country already. And having politicians changing legislation because of individual cases is usually not a good idea, as it leads to crude laws.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    16. Re:The fall guy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even in cases where someone lies in court, you are generally allowed to restate answers, without immediately being hit with perjury charges.

      Clapper got a chance to restate his answers. As is normal with Congressional testimony, he was given the questions a day in advance and had the opportunity to object to the them. He could have, for example, asked that the question be moved to a closed-door hearing so classified information could have been given. He also was offered the chance to amend his answers the day after the testimony, just in case he "misspoke". He declined.

      Clapper did not "misspeak". He didn't misunderstand the question, or get confused about which program was spying on whom. He flat up lied. Under oath. To the same elected representatives whom he cites as his support for the proposition that these programs have been properly authorized.

      The only pity here is that there is zero hope that anyone above him will call him on it. At least someone below him called him out.

    17. Re:The fall guy by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      I can't help but wonder if Snowden wouldn't be a good fit. Lets face it, he told the truth when others did not.

    18. Re:The fall guy by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 2

      The bigger question is why did he wait until AFTER Snowden released the information before coming "clean" instead of having the integrity BEFORE?

      When are "We the people" going to start demanding honesty from our leaders?

      --
      Only cowards use censorship.

    19. Re:The fall guy by Art+Challenor · · Score: 1

      Especially since Sen. Wyden (D-OR) sent the question Clapper ahead of time. "So that he would be prepared to answer, I sent the question to Director Clapperâ(TM)s office a day in advance. " Clapper could easily have asked for clarification, so has no excuse fo suggesting that he misunderstood the question.

    20. Re:The fall guy by Elldallan · · Score: 1

      No, many European countries requires you to be physically present on their national soil if you want to present a request for asylum. Embassies etc isn't technically considered national soil(except in the media) since the host country can in theory revoke the embassy.

    21. Re:The fall guy by UltraZelda64 · · Score: 1

      Probably never. Unfortunately, the vast majority of "we the people" are too fucking ignorant, dumb, and just don't care. Look how far fucked the government already is... "we the people" only helped to make it this way by electing worthless, lying sacks of shit like Obama into office. Too bad all the alternatives were either just as bad or worse. And never mind all the bullshit going on behind our backs, fueled by our own tax dollars, against anyone's knowledge or approval. The U.S. government has become a disgrace to all of what the Constitution promises to its people.

    22. Re:The fall guy by davester666 · · Score: 1

      No. Laws only apply to people NOT part of the government.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    23. Re:The fall guy by oreiasecaman · · Score: 1

      No, many European countries requires you to be physically present on their national soil if you want to present a request for asylum. Embassies etc isn't technically considered national soil(except in the media) since the host country can in theory revoke the embassy.

      How come Assange is living all this time in the Ecuador embassy in the UK, then?

      --
      This is a UDP joke, I don't care if you get it or not...
    24. Re:The fall guy by charlesj68 · · Score: 1

      When are "We the people" going to start demanding honesty from our leaders?

      Never, because most are too interested in obtaining their "benefits" from the control hierarchy and it is quantity not honesty that they most appreciate.

  2. It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by dargaud · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And WTF does 'wittingly' means ? That you are trying to drown a fish ?

    --
    Non-Linux Penguins ?
    1. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by geekmux · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And WTF does 'wittingly' means ? That you are trying to drown a fish ?

      I don't care if he said he "smurfed" US Citizens. The real concern we should be having here is a complete lack of consequence.

      Worst-case scenario? He'll be asked to step down and retire comfortably. Of course, this is after he's offered millions for a tell-all book and movie deal. Watch and see.

      The rich and powerful go unpunished. THAT is the real concern. Lies mean nothing without real consequence.

    2. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by dmbasso · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The rich and powerful go unpunished. THAT is the real concern.

      In this case, punishment shouldn't even be the main concern. The focus should be in stopping the clearly unconstitutional activities. But the US population opinion is "fuck the constitution, protect us from those evil terrorists" [because that's the objective of the PRISM program, right? sure...].

      Land of the free, home of the brave. LOL.

      --
      `echo $[0x853204FA81]|tr 0-9 ionbsdeaml`@gmail.com
    3. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by aralin · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No, in this case, punishment absolutely has to be a concern. The next time another pompous asshole considers to perjure himself in front of Congress, I want him to remember this guy serving 5-10 years and then reconsider the real consequences of his actions. And we might not have those secret programs in the first place.

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
    4. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by markdavis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What he should do is be thrown in jail for outright lying to Congress. The end.

      "Misspoke", my ass.

    5. Re: It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by hsmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just imagine if he had lied to congress about something serious - like steroids in baseball. Then he'd definitely be looking at jail time!

    6. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by rioki · · Score: 1

      ...ignoring the fact that the programs where OKed by congress...

    7. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      True. Martha Steward went to jail for mis-speaking. yet this joker blatantly lies and doesn't get a all expenses paid trip to Gitmo for the Waterboarding experience? This is the reality as to "justice" in the united states.

      If you are inside the old boys club, you do not get in trouble. If you are outside it, they will punish you.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    8. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      it means saying with a straight face that there's a 51% the target isn't american or on american soil.
      nevermind if the actual intelligence gathering is happening on american soil anyways..

      that was the wittingly part anyways. so is he now retracting that they're collecting data if they think there might be a good reason for it? because that's what they were doing - american or not.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    9. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by mmcxii · · Score: 1

      I wonder how loudly the judge would have laughed if someone like Robert Morris Jr. would have used this as a defense.

      "Sorry, your honor, I didn't wittingly bring down the internets."

      It would have certainly been much more honest.... Just another case of the powers-that-be defending their own asshattery.

    10. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by bfandreas · · Score: 1

      And WTF does 'wittingly' means ? That you are trying to drown a fish ?

      It means he didn't know. Which warrants a public hearing since he was there to know and is part of the often cited "checks&balances".

      Did he knowingly lie? The answer to that question is not even remotely interesting considering that either answer will lead to the question of who watches the watchmen. And that answer will be found in a secret court.
      I will lose a lot of respect for the US public(and press) if that happens.

      --
      20 minutes into the future
    11. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 2

      It means the NSA is not malicious, merely incompetent.

      I feel so much better.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    12. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by TWiTfan · · Score: 1

      I wonder if the IRS will start to accept "I misspoke. I unwittingly made an error." on audits in the future.

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    13. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by dywolf · · Score: 1

      IMO it should be a requirement to be a "Man" if you're going to hold these sorts of positions, be a politician, etc. (capital M, gender neutral, expressing a concept of character, not gender)

      A "Man" stands up and admits the truth, has integrity and character, and takes his licks. A man does not lie about lying...none of this "i accidentally misspoke" crap when referring to a blatant lie. No matter how much you may disagree with him, a Man is easy to work and deal with.

      But a slimeball will lie about lying, will stab you in the back at the first opportunity, try to get away with anything and never take responsibility for anything, never deal fairly and squarely about anything....your basic politician/power broker.

      We need more Honest Men to hold high office.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    14. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by TWiTfan · · Score: 1

      Meanwhile, the kid who outed this lying piece of shit is being hunted down like a dog--all while the U.S. press continues to cheerlead for the government.

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    15. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by cdrudge · · Score: 2

      No, it will just result in the pompous assholes pleading the 5th and then continuing whatever they were doing, moving to the private but still related sector, and/or retiring comfortably.

    16. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      During the late 1980's, 800 bank officials went to jail for the Savings and Loans failures. In the last bank collapse, no one went to trial. http://www.frumforum.com/three-years-on-still-no-major-arrests-from-crisis/

      Land of the fee and home of the slave.

    17. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by spacepimp · · Score: 2

      Perjury is the term, and it is punishable only up to five years in jail. Sadly Aaron Swartz was facing a lifetime for copying text with intent to distribute from a publicly available publication. Surely the illegal gathering of information on hundreds of millions of citizens (not American people) as they refer to them (citizens have rights) has a similarly punishable crime associated with it. Which will likely not apply/be applied.

    18. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by TheP4st · · Score: 1

      "Misspoke", my ass.

      Indeed as he had full knowledge of the question beforehand and in the absurdly unlikely even that he had no prior knowledge about the data collection until that time he would certainly know for certain what the truth was at the time of the actual hearing. Excerpt of TFA for slashdotters that could not be bothered reading it:

      When Clapper was asked by Sen. Ron Wyden in March if the NSA collects "any type of data at all on millions, or hundreds of millions of Americans," Clapper answered, "No sir," before adding, "Not wittingly."

      After the revelations emerged about the NSA's activities, Wyden, a member of the Senate Intelligence panel, posted an explanation of that exchange, in which he said he sent the question to Clapper's office one day in advance, and also gave Clapper a chance to amend his answer after the public hearing had ended.

      --
      "I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
    19. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by spacepimp · · Score: 1

      I believe those honest men are the whistle blowers that are largely maligned, raided and intruded by sheepish Americans, the media and their respective institutions in which they worked. Men stand up and refute orders that are unconstitutional.

    20. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      That's not exactly a new phenomenon though: It's been more-or-less standard practice ever since Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    21. Re: It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just imagine if he had told the truth to the public about something serious. Then he'd be looking at a worldwide manhunt complete with drones and major diplomatic incidents involving violating the rights of foreign heads of state.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    22. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by LVSlushdat · · Score: 2

      ...ignoring the fact that the programs where OKed by congress...

      ...Ignoring the fact that Congress IGNORED the Constitution??? The 4th Amendment flatly prohibits
      this kind of activity. Try READING it sometime, its a good read... Here, I'll even help you.. I realize
      the schools today don't bother teaching the Constitution, as its sooooo inconvient to their aims, that
      being indocrination camps for good little obiedient consumers...

      The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

      You'll notice the "shall not be violated"... Kinda puts a BIG damper on the current Congress and its three-letter-agencies activities, or at least its supposed to... when the government works as the founding fathers intended...

      See? you learned something today...

      --
      THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
    23. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by Insightfill · · Score: 1

      I may be slightly OT, but is there any VALUE to a hearing by Congress? I can see the premise that they need to educate themselves about the facts before writing or voting on a bill, but it seems more and more that they've really only been used for political posturing (at best) or witch hunts at worst. I can understand a hearing for facts in advance of pending legislation, but these "fact findings" expeditions after major events tend to do nothing but stir up the base.

    24. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by Neo-Rio-101 · · Score: 1

      Land of the free, home of the brave. LOL.

      Land of all greed, and home of deranged

      --
      READY.
      PRINT ""+-0
    25. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Don't be ridiculous. The death penalty isn't generally used in cases like these. It is usually used in state murder cases. No one has been executed here for other than normal criminal offenses, even for actual espionage, for half a century or more. I believe that would have been the Rosenbergs.

      And no one in the history of the United States has ever actually been executed for treason, although there was at least one person who was convicted and sentenced to death (which was not carried out). The reason for that is very simply that it is extremely difficult to convict someone of treason under the Constitution, and the government is usually extremely uncomfortable with executing people for "political" crimes, even when they get a conviction.

      Expect him to get life in jail at most, and definitely some hard time in a Federal PMITA prison. He's going to have the book thrown at him due to the top secret level of material he released, but death is not going to happen. Even the people here who hate him probably don't actually want him dead, they are just really mad at him.

      I would not put it past the government to have him put in solitary though, especially since he's proven that he's a walking leak of top secret information. So, he's in a world of hurt, but in a distinctly 21st Century sense.

    26. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by tnk1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is no punishable crime for this as the program was entirely legal. You don't get thrown in jail for doing things that are legal unless you are invaded by another country or there's a revolution.

      Even if some court retroactively declared it illegal, people who were executing under the law can easily argue that they were executing the program in good faith that it was legal, as a law had been passed and there was no injunction.

      This needs to be less about punishing people for unfortunately legal things, and more about making these things illegal to begin with. Otherwise, you might as well be punching yourself in the face trying to convict people for these things.

    27. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by BonThomme · · Score: 1

      I thought it meant he was witless.

    28. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      Worst case scenario is that he will still be there, or get promoted or moved into another position where he will keep doing damage (i.e. bank regulation agency, that is basically an oximoron for US). The best case scenario is that he will be judged by treason to the american people, but somewhat i don't think it will happen, noone in washington shouldn't be too far from that, better to just kill messengers.

    29. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by Myopic · · Score: 1

      I agree. Five years is approximately a proportionate punishment. Ten years would also be okay. More than fifteen would probably be excessive.

    30. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by spacepimp · · Score: 2

      Perjury under oath to the Senator who heads the very over site committee designed make certain the actions of your secret intelligence organization about how and which activities are being performed is not legal. Perjury is not legal. Which part of this do you not understand? The fact they are lying about their actions which are sanctioned only because of this over site, means they are deliberately obfuscating what they are doing so said over site is misinformed means the NSA is operating illegaly and without sanctions.

    31. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by Myopic · · Score: 1

      Yes, and by "ever since Gerald Ford" you mean "ever since always".

    32. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by Myopic · · Score: 1

      The program was to commit perjury? Huh, I thought it was to unconstitutionally search the records of everyone with a phone. Where did you hear that the program was to commit perjury?

    33. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by jxander · · Score: 2

      Legally, phone records aren't yours, they belong to the phone company.

      Legally, the apartment you rent isn't yours. It belongs to the landlord (or some other parent company)

      Can a single warrant for the landlord grant access to every apartment in the building? Absolutely not.

      These actions clearly and directly violate the spirit and intent of the 4th amendment (and the 9th and the 10th) even if Congress can use Newspeak to make the actions skirt within the letter of the law.

      --
      This signature is false.
    34. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Seriously, do you think everyone who restates something gets thrown in jail for perjury? Heck, this guy even has a semi-plausible reason for not having all the information. Snicker at his wording all you like, tossing people in jail for clarifying their statements isn't going to help anyone. Would you prefer that he'd not addressed it and kept his mouth shut?

      And no, even if he didn't give full information to Congress, it does not mean they were acting illegally. That's an entirely separate assertion that needs to be proven on its own merits. I agree that a restatement by Clapper could potentially represent "probable cause" to open such an investigation, but it does not legally nor logically follow that now the whole program is illegal.

    35. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Surely the illegal gathering of information on hundreds of millions of citizens (not American people) as they refer to them (citizens have rights) has a similarly punishable crime associated with it

      The above was the comment I was responding to. There is nothing there about perjury.

    36. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by mmcxii · · Score: 1

      If it worked properly then it would not have "unwittingly" collected data that it should not have had.

    37. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      See, that's the thing. He is responsible for the people under him. So there are only two choices: either he knows what was going on and committed perjury or he does not know what was going on and is likely guilty of criminal negligence through willful indifference and perjury by willful blindness. I vote for the latter. More jail time that way.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    38. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Only when it comes to making excuses. You should feel much safer now that you know that they are very good at actual spying.

    39. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by ErikBird · · Score: 2

      Anwar al-Awlaki, a U.S. citizen, was executed by the U.S. government in 2010 without being tried in a U.S. court. You don't have to be convicted of anything to be executed by the USG. I believe Anwar was primarily a propagandist for al-Qaida, al-Qaida is primarily a U.S. defined organization. Because al-Qaida is a U.S. defined organization it gives the U.S. a lot of power in deciding who is considered a member. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/22/white-house-drone-strikes-us-citizens

    40. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by Nyder · · Score: 1

      No, in this case, punishment absolutely has to be a concern. The next time another pompous asshole considers to perjure himself in front of Congress, I want him to remember this guy serving 5-10 years and then reconsider the real consequences of his actions. And we might not have those secret programs in the first place.

      I'm thinking time for a new election, anyone currently in congress, the senate or part of the presidents pack, your time as a politician is over. Done, you are all impeached or removed from office for failing the American people.

      We then nullify the laws they have been making against our freedom, get rid of most of the 3 letter agencies, and try this again.

      And maybe that will make politicians think that going against the constitution is a stupid move.

      Look, it beats a revolution, which is my next idea. Our government is rotten. Everyone in it is responsible for this mess, everyone. They are to serve us, and they haven't been. Time to get fresh blood in.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    41. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by Maritz · · Score: 1

      It really cracks me up that people believe a damn thing any of these dickheads say. Ever.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    42. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by Maritz · · Score: 1

      It's being used to make the bad men go away. That's all you need to know, citizen.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    43. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Perhaps an anonymous phone call about their browsing habits calms them down a bit.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    44. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by triffid_98 · · Score: 1

      ...Ignoring the fact that Congress IGNORED the Constitution??? The 4th Amendment flatly prohibits this kind of activity

      That's OK(*), because our Supreme Court has repeatedly said that the 4th amendment doesn't apply to electronic devices or communications...the whole PATRIOT act thing was just icing on the cake.

      (*)..and by OK I mean completely not OK, but good luck changing it.

    45. Re:It's not an 'error', it's a 'lie' by childproof · · Score: 1

      It comes as a surprise that we are enemies and I really hope we can change this anytime soon.

  3. wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    No.... thats not right. the word required here is FUCKING LIAR!

    He either lied like a piece of shit TRAITOR TO AMERICA. Or he's totally clueless.

    Either way this is not good.
    Lube up the guillotine. It's services are required once again.

    Are we not tired of paying fucktons of money for illegal actions by the people who are supposed to be on our side? These guys are worse than terrorists. Terrorists just kill people. These guys ruin lives, familys, and make you pay for it.

    Off with his head. We'll put a stop to this shit.

    1. Re:wrong? by asylumx · · Score: 1

      Terrorists just kill people. These guys ruin lives, familys, and make you pay for it.

      You don't think killing people ruins lives and families?

    2. Re:wrong? by ibwolf · · Score: 2

      So here's the thing... If God doesn't exist and morals are dependent on your personal feelings... Why does lying provoke such an outraged reaction?

      Civilized society functions primarily on the basis of a moral contract between us citizens. Part of this contract is that some citizens wield considerable authority on the premise (and promise!) that they use it for the common good. It is also part of the contract that those individuals are accountable to the rest of us.

      When such individuals break the contract (in this case by lying) it should be a cause for outrage. Not because "god" said lying was evil, but because they've abused their position within our society.

      Invoking a higher power is neither necessary nor helpful in this situation.

    3. Re:wrong? by Fesh · · Score: 1

      So for civilization to work there must be a uniform moral code... And not just any moral code, but a fairly constrained set of moral strictures. So why do we crave civilization? If human lives have no intrinsic value, does it matter if some greater "good" exists for them?

      And for the mods... This is actually an important question with regards to the government's actions. We've allowed the government to amass more and more power and thus limited the value of individuals. I argue that it's not just loss of a Judeo-Christian moral code at work here, but any moral guidance from anywhere.

      --
      --Fesh
      Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
    4. Re:wrong? by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      whether or not someone is a PATRIOT or TERRORIST depends on who wins the power struggle

    5. Re:wrong? by chihowa · · Score: 1

      The bare minimum moral code, the Golden Rule, is largely self-evident and doesn't need to rely on any external authority. It easily covers this situation and most situations encountered in a society. Deviation from this barest of moral codes is a clear indication of a sociopath or malicious actor.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    6. Re:wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And why exactly do you think the petty, vengeful, scatalogical, murderous, genocidal, torturing-anyone-he-doesn't-like-for-all-of-eternity Bronze Age nightmare hellspawn known as Yahweh is any sort of moral basis? Anyone with a working moral compass who believed Yahweh existed would be trying to KILL it, not worship it!

      Disclaimer: I am not an atheist. But I know for damn sure who I'd rather hang out with, and it's NOT the people who think their God sacrificing himself TO himself to stop himself from throwing his own creations, whom he knew would sin, into the hell he created (but didn't mention for 4000+ years) for the sins he knew they would commit before he created them makes any kind of sense. Fuck that. No one blasphemes like a Christian.

      Let me break this down into bite-sized little chunks: the is-ought problem is a smokescreen. It does not exist. All our logic, all our understanding, all our morality, everything except what we definitionally create (some parts of maths, and even then...) is Godel-incomplete. It may be internally consistent and complete, but from within it, we cannot know. There are G-sentences in it, along the same vein as "this sentence is false." It's like trying to look at the back of your head by rolling your eyes up into your skull.

      HOWEVER, we are a social species, and we evolved from a social species, and social behavior is far older than the primate lineage, let alone humanity. Over the eons, for hundreds of thousands of years, we've developed this further as culture and memetics began to supersede genetics. These are emergent developments, not separate ones, and in times of stress or fear, we will regress as the higher functions shut down while the body deals with adrenal overload.

      And in the present? Huge, huge force multipliers exist that didn't in the environment we evolved in. Technology, global communications, massive energy and transport infrastructure...all of it is invented. And there are people with tremendous intellect but no real fellow-feeling at the reins, people who understand how powerful and useful Fear is.

      People who, ironically, are existentially terrified deep down. Greed is a kind of fear. Hatred is fear backed into a corner. Prejudice is fear. Living beings which can feel fear do what they can to eliminate it. What do you think happens when sociopaths and the easily-led mix in conditions like this? What did you expect?

    7. Re:wrong? by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      So here's the thing... If God doesn't exist and digestion is dependent on your personal anatomy... Why does eating dogshit provoke such an outraged reaction?

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    8. Re:wrong? by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      I did have mod points
      Suddenly, insightful post
      Where have the points gone?

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    9. Re:wrong? by Fesh · · Score: 1

      No, I agree that the Golden Rule doesn't have to rely on external authority. But why do we feel the need to follow it? Why are sociopaths considered bad instead of just a natural consequence of neurological variation?

      Again, what's so valuable about individual people that we create societies to protect them? Where does our compassion for the weaker members of society come from? It doesn't follow from the Law of the Jungle, now does it?

      --
      --Fesh
      Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
    10. Re:wrong? by Fesh · · Score: 1

      Animals evolved fear in order to increase their odds of survival. So what are we afraid of? Our rational minds do have the ability to moderate our behavior in spite of our emotions. And rationally speaking there's nothing to be afraid of if human life has no meaning other than the mechanisms of genetic propagation.

      As far as the nature of God is concerned... You have to understand the idea that humanity fell from grace by our own selfish pride before you can rebut the theology. When that happened in the course of the history of the universe is not clear. Not all Christians are Six-Day Creationists.

      --
      --Fesh
      Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
    11. Re:wrong? by Fesh · · Score: 1

      Is there some sort of large variation in the configuration of human digestive systems that renders eating dog shit a helpful thing instead of a (possibly) harmful thing? If not, then it's not germane to the question of why moral codes exist and why human beings should have any worth assigned to them, but instead an attempt to apply an indirect ad hominem.

      --
      --Fesh
      Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
    12. Re:wrong? by Fesh · · Score: 1

      And the vast majority of humanity is ok with that? Or is there a feeling, deep down, in a not-insignificant number of people that there is something not quite right with that state of affairs? If we want some form of external good in our lives, then we would be best off with throwing down societies and replacing them with pure anarchies.

      Except that a pure anarchy only lasts until one individual decides that another is in the way of what they want.

      --
      --Fesh
      Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
    13. Re:wrong? by Fesh · · Score: 1

      The Golden Rule: he who owns the gold makes the rules. That fact of society has never changed and never will.

      And yet a lot of people seem to feel that there's something unjust about that... Why do we bother feeling that way? If might does make right, why do we cling to our identities as individuals? Life would certainly be more tolerable if we didn't...

      --
      --Fesh
      Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
    14. Re:wrong? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Cardinal Richelieu said it best when he said, "Who commits treason is only a matter of the date," or something to that effect.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    15. Re:wrong? by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      So for civilization to work there must be a uniform moral code... And not just any moral code, but a fairly constrained set of moral strictures. So why do we crave civilization? If human lives have no intrinsic value, does it matter if some greater "good" exists for them?

      If fish had bicycles, would they ride on the left side of the road or the right side?

      The sheer number of erroneous assumptions you have already made before you asked the question boggles the mind.

    16. Re:wrong? by tibman · · Score: 1

      Morals don't have to flow from religion. I don't like my stuff being stolen. You don't like your stuff stolen. So we agree not to steal. Some third guy steals from us and we push our morals on him in the form of laws (and the punishments for breaking them). God was never involved.

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    17. Re:wrong? by Fesh · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. Moral systems don't have to flow from religion. But I don't think it's reasonable that moral systems make sense without the implicit assumption that every human being has worth. So why do we make this implicit assumption? On what do we base the worth of human individuals? If individuals have no intrinsic value, then it rationally makes no sense to respect their feelings and agree to something that's not in your own self interest.

      --
      --Fesh
      Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
    18. Re:wrong? by Fesh · · Score: 1

      Well, just enumerate off the top of the list, then. I'm interested in exactly what erroneous assumptions I've made. Or are you full of it?

      --
      --Fesh
      Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
    19. Re:wrong? by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      I've heard your sort before. You're six or seven steps down the religious road arguing against atheism, and doing it badly.

      So let's look at a few off the top of the list. Only a few, mind you. I'm busy tonight.

      Erroneous assumption 1: Atheists believe human life has no intrinsic value.
      Erroneous assumption 2: Atheists believe human life has no value, intrinsic or otherwise.
      Erroneous assumption 3: Human life can not be valued unless it has intrinsic value.
      Erroneous assumption 4: For life to have intrinsic value, it must be granted by a god.

      Wrong in every particular.

      Some atheists believe life has intrinsic value. I'm not one of them, because then you get into a big argument about what 'intrinsic' actually means in that context, and it's not even worth the trouble because the broader statement is plenty true enough. Life has value because life values itself. It sounds a bit tautological, but it's the literal truth. It's also sufficient grounds to found an entire moral code. An intensely moral code, at that, if explored in detail.

      The most easily understood version of the same statement is: your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. Or most succinctly: The Golden Rule. The Golden Rule is an entire moral system in one sentence, and you'll note that it requires no supernatural justification whatsoever. It is morality, in the presence or absence of gods or the presence or absence of belief in gods. (Some of) What we call civilization is simply that, blown up until it occupies 40 linear feet of shelf space. When special interest starts to creep into those 40 feet, it's easily recognized because it violates the Golden Rule. Which doesn't stop it. Lawyers exist to pervert the Golden Rule into what I hereby dub the Animal Rule. As Mr Orwell put it, all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. Civilization is not necessarily moral. Usually parts of it are and parts of it aren't. C'est la vie.

    20. Re:wrong? by Fesh · · Score: 1

      Ok, good. Now we're getting somewhere.

      I'll lay my cards on the table here. Postmodern philosophy (if you're intellectually honest and you follow things to their logical conclusion) eventually leads one to conclude that nihilism and solipsism is the only rationally defensible position. And if you've done that, we're done with the conversation because we're not playing on the same board. That's the limit of rational truth in this universe. I believe Gödel incompleteness was mentioned earlier, and that's absolutely true. If you choose to only believe rational truths and reject faith in unprovable truths, we have no basis for argument.

      But I suspect that a lot of people are uncomfortable with that. Something inside us doesn't like those choices very much. You can come up with all sorts of rationalizations to comfort yourself, but if you're interested in nothing but rational truths that's the road you're led down. Now you can argue that belief in God is just another of those rationalizations, and you wouldn't be logically wrong in thinking that. But that doesn't make it any less valid of a coping method than any other you could come up with (such as ignoring the problem altogether and not thinking through the logic). So the hostility of some atheists towards religious is not the result of an honest search for the truth, in my opinion.

      Now points 1 and 2 I concede. It's a symptom of stereotyping, and also assuming that anyone who's honesty searching for truth yet trying to take God out of the picture must necessarily have followed the logic all the way to nihilism. But those don't really hurt my argument.

      Now as to the value of human life, something either has value or it doesn't, yes? Ignore intrinsic vs. extrinsic for a moment. Something either has value or it doesn't. If the value is extrinsic, in other words, dependent on circumstance, then it's not guaranteed to be there at all times. Value can be reassigned or taken away. Only if value is intrinsic does it stay no matter what the external circumstances are. That's why I believe objection #3 is invalid. Once again, if you're all way down the road to nihilism, it doesn't matter and nothing I say is going to make a difference anyway.

      Now the question of value is important because the Golden Rule is not a reality in itself but is dependent for meaning on whether or not you value other individuals enough to take their well-being into account. There doesn't seem to be any rational basis for the belief in inalienable human rights (as mentioned in the Declaration of Independence) other than the intrinsic value of human life. I'd be happy to learn of any other logically supported grounds for our rights as individuals. So if inalienable rights depend on the value of human life, they can't be inalienable if based on extrinsic value and can be taken away due to external circumstances. So inalienable rights depend on intrinsic human value. Now again, if you're a nihilist or a solipsist, then the Golden Rule doesn't really apply to you anyway, right? You just prefer to live that way, you're not rationally required to.

      Now as to #4, I would be interested in other suggestions for another basis for the value human beings such that there is a rational argment for the existence of individual rights. My life experience has led me to make the leap of faith that my theology is a sufficient basis. Given other arguments for the existence of God and none against other than "you can't prove it!", it seems to me that Occam's razor favors that notion.

      So here's the bottom line. Our society has lost focus on the value of individual human life and has cheapened it to such an extent that we're all just cogs in a bureaucratic machine, easily replaced and only valued as long as someone's making money off it. So yeah, you're absolutely right about the dismal state of affairs regarding lawyers. It wasn't intended to be this way, as evidenced by the writings of the founding fathers. There was a belief that self-government of individuals was an inalienable

      --
      --Fesh
      Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
    21. Re:wrong? by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      Postmodern philosophy is indefensible twaddle, on a good day, and horseshit any other day. No wonder you're confused, if you think postmodernism is your opponent.

      Erroneous assumption 5: There is such a thing as an unprovable truth.
      Erroneous assumption 6: Atheists are necessarily either nihilists or solipsists.
      Erroneous assumption 7: Logic that begins with an axiom that is the desired conclusion is valid.
      Erroneous assumption 8: Value assigned by a nonhuman entity is intrinsic rather than extrinsic.

      "Unprovable truth" is an oxymoron. The sound of one hand clapping is an unprovable truth. Both concepts contain an inherent contradiction and are therefore nonsense. Which doesn't stop people from playing with them, but nothing in the real universe is inherently contradictory, so it's only entertainment. It's trivially easy to construct self-contradictory sentences in English. The existence of such sentences does not prove or even imply any meaning or validity. "This sentence is a lie." Following the meaning of such sentences is nothing but tail-chasing, interesting only as long as you enjoy spinning in circles. Fun for puppies, but even puppies grow up.

      Similarly, nihilism is nonsense. Nihilism tries to claim that the absence of meaning is somehow meaningful. More sounds of one hand clapping. A philosophy based on an oxymoron is meaningless.

      Solipsism is more sophomoric nonsense. Depending on the extent of self-deception, the practitioner is either a raging psychopath who honestly believes that everyone else in the world is a meat puppet, or self-deluded enough to think that their own mind can invent everything they see without them being aware of it. One is evidence of a severe mental dysfunction. The other is unprovable. Solipsism is disproved by the plain evidence. You can not know another person's mind, therefore their mind is independent from yours, therefore solipsism is wrong. Anybody who refuses to acknowledge the evidence of their own senses is self-deluded, denying reality, and possibly dangerous.

      So I refute your assumption by demonstration: I am an atheist that is neither a solipsist nor a nihilist, and further, I can point out precisely why one is nonsense and the other is merely intellectual masturbation, and I contend that plenty of other atheists are just as capable.

      The phrase "trying to take God out of the picture" reveals your 7th erroneous assumption. That phrase implies that you began with the axiom "God exists." Any logic to prove the existence of a god based on that axiom is circular and useless. The only way to use logic to get anywhere is to remove that axiom from your logic. The religious are seldom willing (or even able) to take that step. Not to worry. You're in good company. Even the likes of Thomas Aquinas fell into that trap.

      Your 4th and 8th erroneous assumptions are duals of one another, and both are based on a contradiction you stated yourself without even noticing. You believe human life has value because that value has been assigned by a god. That is, by your own definition, extrinsic value, rather than intrinsic. This is easily demonstrated by current events (and a great deal of history).

      If a god assigns value to human life, a god (either the same one or another one) can rescind that value just as easily. The suicide bomber says "My god (or my cleric speaking for my god) has said the infidel is lost to him and therefore must die." See how easy that was? Value gone. Value assigned by a god is by definition extrinsic, because it can be (and regularly is) taken away.

      In the words of Steven Weinburg: "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

      For a good man to do evil, he must first deny that the lives of other men have value. Nothing is so pliable toward that end as religion. This simple fact plus an awareness of history is the s

    22. Re:wrong? by Fesh · · Score: 1

      This is what I like about Slashdot. I can always find something new to learn. You're right that I've been guilty of prejudice in thinking that nihilism and solipsism were the position that modern atheism is based on. I see that in assuming that, I've disrespected you and many other people. I apologize sincerely for that. Equally so, I respect the amount of thought that you've put into this conversation and thank you for taking the time to discuss this rationally. And I agree totally with the distinction of society and government/corporate power that you elaborate here. My wording was imprecise. However, corporate interests appear to be driving the overall culture, and don't see that culture respecting individuals the way you so eloquently describe it.

      That being said, you seem to be much smarter than me as well as much better read, so you've got plenty of firepower at your disposal that I don't have the capability to answer. My only choice at this point is to say, "Well played, sir."

      I don't reject outright the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or godlike pink unicorns. The universe is simply too large and we don't know nearly enough about it for me to be arrogant enough to reject even the possibility of such things. I believe in a God that loves each and every one of us as a child made in His image and likeness. A God that only wants the best for us, despite the poor choices we insist on making. Now I know that the Old Testament seems to refute that, but if you asked a child to write a story about their parent after being punished for unacceptable behavior, you wouldn't get a very flattering result either. Christ's coming was an attempt to rescue us from childish behavior and clarify God's nature which we have consistently misunderstood.

      I've come to this belief in God by way of personal experience, and of course I can't expect anyone to accept that as evidence. Being cured of an addiction to pornography instantly and completely after deciding that you're lonely enough to return to the church you were raised in has a way of doing that to a guy, though. I know how weak it looks, but this belief is what I need to get through each day without shutting down due to the pointlessness of it all. Your mileage appears to vary.

      There's a few things that I don't understand, though, and I'd be interested to see what your answers are.

      1) If the Golden Rule is completely sufficient for deriving what is moral versus immoral behavior, then is it morally justified for a masochist to torture someone or a suicidal person to commit murder? The wording I'm familiar with doesn't contain exceptions for deviant ways of wanting to be treated. Also, the fist-swinging wording doesn't seem to allow for self-defense the way I understand it.

      2) When does human life begin? At what point does the Golden Rule start applying? Biologically speaking, human life begins at fertilization but there seems to be some controversy over when that life becomes worthy of being treated like a person.

      3) How is "Life has value because life values itself" not a tautology? Because my understanding was that basing an argument on a tautology is a logical fallacy. And even if it's not a tautology, it does appear to assume itself and thus beg the question. I'd appreciate being corrected on this matter.

      Again, well played, sir. I wish you all the best in life.

      --
      --Fesh
      Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
  4. What's this then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    He was outright lying to congress (wasn't that under oath maybe?), and now he says he was indeed lying (duh), but that congress really already knew and had agreed to what was really happening? That's quite curious, isn't it?

    Then again, there were those congressmen who wanted to repeal FISA after they found out^W^W^Wit had become public what was really going on. Don't these bozos read the laws they're passing? If not, this guy might well be right.

    It doesn't make anything that's been happening better, mind. It just makes it worse. Not only are the TLAgencies unfixably out of control, congress apparently is entirely incompetent to do their job. Why do we keep any of those critters around?

    1. Re:What's this then? by Stolpskott · · Score: 2

      Why do we keep any of those (entirely incompetent) critters around?

      Just borrowed the bracketed comment from your previous sentence, to add weight to the bit I was quoting...
      The reason you keep those incompetent/self-serving/corrupt (delete as appropriate, or just leave alone if you think your congressman/woman is all 3) critters around is because you keep voting for the incumbent in the elections for your Congressional Representatives in both houses. Fundamentally, whether one party or the other engages in gerrymandering does not/should not matter - if enough of the voting members of the public say "enough, this person's actions in the House have shown them to be incompetent/self-serving/corrupt, I am going to vote for something, anything, else...", then the presently incumbent will become the previously incumbent Representative.
      However, for that to happen... die-hard Republicans might need to vote for a pinko-liberal-commie-muslim-african-gay-transsexual Democrat. Die-hard Democrats might need to vote for a Nazi-nationalist-caveman-fundamentalist-greedy-extremist-Bible thumping Republican. Oh, and the sheeple who normally vote for the one with the best TV adverts might need to break the habit of a lifetime, and form their own opinion.
      What would that achieve? Well in many cases, it might replace half way competent representatives who made one or two mistakes with inexperienced first-timers who will make more mistakes. It will probably also bring in a few who are just as, if not more, incompetent/self-serving/corrupt than the ones they are replacing. Such is life. You cannot mandate IQ tests, education on technology, economics, world politics and georgraphy specifically for politicians (it might be a good idea to try, though). But after 3 or 4 iterations (yes, I am saying this process will probably take 10+ years), your elected representatives might actually get the message that if they continue to suck up to the people selling tickets for the gravy train, rather than listening to and serving the will of the people, their political career will be short. By that time as well, there would be a saturation of former members of Congress on the after-dinner speaking circuit, we would not need another biography from a politician, and market forces would mean that they cannot earn the same as a failed one-term politician can do today, because the US government would no longer be as beholden to the big business interests that shell out the serious lobbying money and "campaign donations" that have been present in recent history.

      In short, if you get rid of the ones who are not doing their jobs properly, over time the whole group will improve with the realization that failure leads to the exit door, and not to a yellow brick road lined by sacks of money.

    2. Re:What's this then? by Cenan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The problem isn't as much voting either R or D, but that those are the only two choices. Both parties have a vested interest in making you believe that voting anything else is a wasted vote, since, by that logic, if you don't vote R, then D wins. This is only true if both R and D refuse to corporate with a hypothetical third party.

      Instead of calling for voters and representatives to change how they operate within the system now, how about calling for a change in the system itself? It is a little bit depressing to see so many tech savvy people completely ignore that the system is built on logic 200 years old, patched up to meet the standards from 50 years ago. Democracy needs a reboot, representative democracy is a solution to a problem we no longer have: speed of communication. What if you could vote on any issue, at any time via an app? Why would you need a representative then?

      --
      ... whatever ...
    3. Re:What's this then? by gl4ss · · Score: 2

      So they willingly collection information on millions of American's despite that being anti-constitutional? It doesn't really matter if Congress or the Executive approved it. The constitution is there to protect the populous from the law makers.

      it's not anti constitutional if they're suspects.
      so what if everyone is a suspect?-D

      the point is that they can break laws of other countries and spy on foreigners even if they don't a cause of any kind for doing so.. understandably budgets for such secret actions might balloon just a little bit.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    4. Re:What's this then? by ducomputergeek · · Score: 4, Informative

      This issue was addressed a couple thousand years ago by a man name Plato. The work is called The Republic. You might want to consider reading it because it addresses this exact problem with direct democracy: it ends with the tyranny of the majority where minority opinions don't matter.

      That's why we're a Constitutional Republic with checks and balances. At least on paper. That was the original intent of the Founders. What we are today is more or less an oligarchy. Politics here are controlled by a couple families, one Republican, one Democrat. One seems to hold one half of the state and federal offices, the other one holds the rest and occasionally job titles change as they reach term limits or get elected to a federal post.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    5. Re:What's this then? by WinstonWolfIT · · Score: 1

      It's not a democracy, it's a republic, and has always been. A republic suppresses the rabble, by design.

    6. Re:What's this then? by Endlisnis · · Score: 1

      I think that is a terrible idea. You might be amazed at what the majority of people believe, or would vote for. (Vote #1) Let's reduce taxes to 0%! (Results:) 75% agree.

    7. Re:What's this then? by Stolpskott · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't as much voting either R or D, but that those are the only two choices. Both parties have a vested interest in making you believe that voting anything else is a wasted vote, since, by that logic, if you don't vote R, then D wins. This is only true if both R and D refuse to corporate with a hypothetical third party.

      Multi-party politics can certainly work, and I would not want to limit the US to only 2 choices for the sake of it. However, multi-party setups where the number of separate parties get larger tend towards minority governments, coalitions with their own internal stresses, and generally less effective decision-making, with policy being driven by the need to keep a coalition together rather than "for the good of the people".
      ok, I have probably just come fairly close to describing the current setup of the Republican party, which when viewed through the lens of long distance looks like several groups of escapees from the Insane Asylum, none of whom really like or trust each other, but who are driven by a greater dislike and distrust of "the enemy" (The Democrats). I suspect that there are equally deep divisions within the Democrat ranks, and these would be exposed during the campaigning process to choose a challenger to an incumbent President (by definition, the incumbent's lack of a need to compete against others within their party gives the appearance of unity).
      Given things like the Tea Party agenda, their less-than-comfortable relationship with the GOP, and the underlying American/Republican frontier spirit which fuels a psyche of individual independence, governance and self-reliance, I suspect that a multi-party system would see 2 or 3 "Democrat" parties differentiated by non-core Democrat policies, and 3-8 "Republican" parties with variations of core Republican policies, plus perhaps independent parties organised along religious orientation lines.
      That would have definite advantages - instead of an increasingly polarized argument between two behemoths, there might actually be genuine discussion of political and social matters less encumbered by rhetoric. Fundamentally though, you would probably find government being made up primarily of a Democrat coalition, with the Republican parties rendered largely ineffective by internal squabbling, leading to some of the more moderate Republican elements moving toward the center in an attempt to either differentiate and distance themselves from the playground name-calling or even trying to latch onto the Democrat machine.
      In Europe certainly, multi-party politics tend to work fairly well, but generally with a relatively small number of discrete parties. I suspect that the US road to multi-partyism would explode into a larger number of small parties, which tends to be less effective, and in itself does not address concerns about competence or accountability of governments (Italy and Greece in recent history as examples).

      Ultimately, I see the underlying problem being less that there are only 2 parties, but that those two parties fundamentally present as 2 ideologically opposed voices with no middle ground, but when looking at the detail behind the rhetoric, the two appear to be remarkably close together.

    8. Re:What's this then? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "Instead of calling for voters and representatives to change how they operate within the system now, how about calling for a change in the system itself?"

      Not happening without shooting every last one of the bastards in office, and in the NSA, and the CIA, and DHS, and the USSC.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    9. Re:What's this then? by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      While we're on the subject of ancient Athenian solutions, a few of their ideas which probably helped keep things under control:
      1. Many important offices were chosen at random. That may seem crazy, but I'm hard-pressed to figure out how that would end up with worse results than our current Congress (current approval rating, according to Rasmussen: 6%).
      2. Once someone's term was up, they were immediately put on trial for their actions while in office, with threats of banishment, fines, and even execution in egregious cases. That kept public officials on their toes.
      3. There was a widespread expectation that all citizens would hold an office in government at some point in their lives. By contrast, the most generous estimates have 500,000 elected offices in the US, which means that less than 1% of Americans ever participate directly in government except when serving on juries.

      What we are today is more or less an oligarchy. Politics here are controlled by a couple families, one Republican, one Democrat.

      I agree we're an oligarchy. However, I disagree that we're controlled by the Republicans and Democrats. I think we're controlled by the 1000 richest people that constitute the major political donors in the US, and use that to control the Republicans and Democrats put forward, as well as legally controlling approximately 50% of all wealth in the US.

      Although I could see how you could be fooled, especially back when it looked like we were only going to have presidents named "Bush" or "Clinton" starting back in 1988 (a lot of commentators were projecting Hillary Clinton in 2008-16, Jeb Bush in 2016-24, Chelsea Clinton in 2024-30, and continuing like that for a very long time).

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    10. Re:What's this then? by Fuzzums · · Score: 1

      Wittingly. That is something different. The difference is small, but it's different.
      And still a lie.

      --
      Privacy is terrorism.
    11. Re:What's this then? by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Plato was wrong about a great many things. Why shouldn't this be one more of them?

    12. Re:What's this then? by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      The Swiss Confederation is also small, in a bunch of defensible mountains that no one really considers all that important, and has purposely limited itself from engaging in any sort of partisan diplomacy. This position also makes it convenient for various sides to use and preserve Switzerland as a neutral territory. Not every country can be in the same position.

      The problem with direct democracy is that getting a majority doesn't make you factually correct, and that becomes a problem when you need to discuss highly specialized topics. In a smaller country, this could work, because if you can keep the problems all local, you have a better shot of having a population that actually understands the issues. However, there are more than a few dubious things that Swiss banking, for instance, has enabled. The Swiss may not be shooting people in the face, but they are known for keeping the cash safe for the people who do. One doubts that a majority of the Swiss are necessarily in favor of that.

      And tyranny of the majority is also a problem in Switzerland as well. The way they deal with it is by a tradition of consensus and minority representation in government whereby they always aim to ensure that there are no votes in the executive that are contested outwardly, which forces compromises on both sides. It is a decent idea, but at the same time Switzerland is, in effect, operated behind closed doors and in a representative sense as much as any other country. Proportionality, while considered desirable by some, is not actually direct democracy.

    13. Re:What's this then? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't as much voting either R or D, but that those are the only two choices.

      No, the problem is that R or D is not a choice at all. They are the same party. If you choose R, the rich authoritarians win. If you choose D, the rich authoritarians win. Voting for either D or R is a wasted vote.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    14. Re:What's this then? by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Well, consider this. The nobility are composed of the best families, and the most illustrious stock, but like most elite groups, they are the minority. Extending political power to the peasantry would infringe on the rights of the aristocracy to rule the empire in perpetuity.

    15. Re:What's this then? by bfandreas · · Score: 1

      Switzerland is quite unique in Europe(the continent, not the organization). They are not quite neutral. They are ruled by 5 parties in concensus. They all agree on not liking the French, German, Italian and Raetian bits of Switzerland. Yet they all agree on being Swiss. All the bridges, tunnels and mountains are mined. And everybody of able body(and in some cases mind) is trained to use a weapon and possibly keeps a hick's wet dream at home(with the ammunition kept separate). And the trains are announced to be late on the station's PA if they are a minute overdue. The food is great, the wine is great, the vista is great, the opportunities are great. Yet wether you are allowed to become Swiss is down to the local community which might turn you down even if you are a multi-millionaire. On moral grounds. Unless you apply in Zurich. Then they will take you as long as you have a pulse. And you are rich. In other words: it is a great little country and the people there are eye-wateringly sensible. Even when it comes to direct-democracy popular votes on actual issues and not party policies.

      If somebody of the Swiss /. community could please add anything to this assessment I would be most grateful. Greetings from you least favourite northern neighbours.

      --
      20 minutes into the future
    16. Re:What's this then? by Cenan · · Score: 1

      In the time of Plato they also used show of hands for voting, and counted by eye - in a gathering of up to 6000 people. To be eligible for voting, you had to be present - a tall order in those days, and effectively shutting out anyone not living in Athens. Plato did not have the means nor the imagination to define democracy for thousands of years to come, and hitching your argument on his writings makes you part of the problem. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that the founding fathers knew of Plato's writings, and took them into account. The US constitution was a solution to 18th century problems in a colony, they were very much concerned with avoiding the dangers of their time.

      Fast forward 200 years; what you have now is a tyranny of the minority, where money buys votes. You might think you have some say on how your country is run, on your behalf, but in reality a few thousand very rich people are calling the shots. The core of that problem is the representative model, because that means that money only has to be put into a few pockets in order to buy millions of votes. And as many replies below have pointed out, the republic does not protect against tyranny of the majority, the constitution does that.

      --
      ... whatever ...
    17. Re:What's this then? by Cenan · · Score: 1

      Well, that was my point. You can't really tinker slightly with the current system and come out with a better one. Most democracies across the first world are, to some extent, rotten. I would have thought that readers of /. would be more open to a discussion about where to take democracy next, rather then jump up on the fence for a system that is clearly not working as intended.

      --
      ... whatever ...
  5. Now by lightknight · · Score: 1

    Now tell him to stop doing things which make the American people angry.

    --
    I am John Hurt.
    1. Re:Now by Fuzzums · · Score: 1

      The number of people that is pissed upon by 'murica is FAR greater than that tiny fraction of the world population that's called the 'murican people.

      --
      Privacy is terrorism.
  6. Damnedby if you do, damned if you don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    What if the testimony of General Clapper was simply a rouse? Think about it. After the revelation of Edward Snowden, there was substantial press about how all three branches of government knew of the program and that it was supported by each with classified checks and balances. If this is the case, then why would the Senate Intelligence Committee ask General Clapper so bluntly about a classified program in a public setting? Honestly though, I could see where that testimony in particular may have set off Snowden. Here he was working with these programs while he watched the head of an intelligence agency bluntly deny them. I could imagine he felt betrayed and felt that it was important to right that wrong.

    1. Re:Damnedby if you do, damned if you don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Question now is, will General Clapper be held in contempt or be conveniently swept aside. The answer to this will empower generations of conspiracy theorists to come...

  7. This guy is not the story anymore by bfandreas · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Whatever.
    The story isn't that the GCHQ/NSA spied on everybody and shared data to circumvent checks and balances. At least it isn't anymore.
    Now the story has become what the Western World truly is. And I find the sight horrifying.
    It is a safe assumption that ALL secret service type of organisations have directly or indirectly profited from this jolly old mess. The mass snooping on private citizens barely got a reaction from head politicos of all parties involved. But once the story broke that official buildings may have been bugged everybody scrambled to voice their indignation.
    Meanwhile the guy who unearthed what we all suspected but never had proof for is handled like a hot potato. Hong Kong let him go because extradition papers were not only late but also weren't filled out properly. The US officials couldn't be arsed to put passport number or his full and korrekt name in the form. If you were that sloppy with your tax forms you would be potentially facing a prison sentence.
    Russia offers political asylum and smugly adds that it is conditional on him not further embarassing "our US partners".
    France, Spain and Portugal refused the president of Bolivia to pass their air space because he might have Snowden on board. Yet everybody complains about what he had published. Meanwhile every western country declines to offer asylum based on technicalities. Yet when they buy stolen bank records for hefty sums they also grant the whistleblowers immunity and possibly a new identity. The sheer two-facedness is ghastly.


    Reading today's news reads like a declaration of bankruptcy of the western ideals and we will all have to do our homework in the aftermath of this mess. When this is all over the only ones without egg on their face will be Russia and China of all places!
    And we, the people, discuss Snowden's girlfriend's tits and now about who lied when about what instead of taking responsibility of our elected dear leaders.

    --
    20 minutes into the future
    1. Re:This guy is not the story anymore by MM-tng · · Score: 1

      Yes, I feel like this for a while now. Waiting for the last drop to fall :).

    2. Re:This guy is not the story anymore by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      The story here is that Clapper flat out lied under oath to Congress. So everything he said, ever, is no longer credible.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    3. Re:This guy is not the story anymore by Jade_Wayfarer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sadly, this is more insightful than it is comfortable to admit to the average "westerner". But I think history will show us that ideals are just this - ideals, not reality. Reality is hard (albeit virtual) cash, useful connections and art of sociopathy. We may not like it, but it is time to accept that Declarations of Independence or of Human Rights are simply well-worded texts without some real power behind them.

      And that power is gone now - Nelson Mandela is just some cool old guy, Martin Luther King Sr. is some dead copyright pusher and Che Guevara is nothing more than a terrorist, righteously executed for his crimes. There is no driving force behind ideals and ideas, and no leader charismatic enough to create such force. So we'll have to accept this new reality and be thankful that someone in the government still admits something. Soon even that wouldn't be necessary.

      --
      Absence of proof != proof of absence.
    4. Re:This guy is not the story anymore by bfandreas · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh come on. As if anybody remotely connected to any secret service had any credibility to begin with.
      This is what this whole mess is about. We can't even pretend everything is a-ok anymore. Snowden has forced us to face the music and that's why he is hunted and whistleblowers who sell bank records of tax dodgers get millions and a medal.

      --
      20 minutes into the future
    5. Re:This guy is not the story anymore by bfandreas · · Score: 1

      Nobody ever lived up to his ideals ever. Not if those ideals were worth it to begin with.
      We stopped trying to achieve our ideals and that's sad.

      Now I know that it always was only a select few who tried to achieve anything but in the past they always dragged us sorry lot along with them. That doesn't seem to happen anymore.

      I haven't followed the news on that but I'd bet there is an ongoing investigation what service could have stopped two public schoolboys who out of a vague sense of being let down by the American Dream took it upon themselves to blow up the Boston marathon. If you want to be safe from random acts like that you will also have to name the freedoms you are willing to give up. And that is the reality nobody wants to face and that's why we let our three-letter-acronyms run amuck. That's not the fault of our elected leaders. That's our fault. As in "us the people".
      Wherever we live.

      --
      20 minutes into the future
    6. Re:This guy is not the story anymore by Jade_Wayfarer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are absolutely correct, but one question remains - what can we do? What can we hope for, if there are no real "selected few" - some are trying to become ones but then they are casted down faster than last-year one-hit bands. Take Snowden - in popular opinion he is just "drama queen", "whiny idiot" or even outright "traitor".

      Here, in Russia, there are examples of that too - many of the so-called "opposition leaders" are just crazy ass-clowns, and others are too idealistic to be accepted as true leaders. One of the most scary things in modern Russia is that Putin is really the most popular politician in this country, and this status quo is not going to change anytime soon.

      So the question remains - what can we, the people, do? What real power do we have today? My own answer for today is "just wait until this broken system destroys itself from inside", but it still may well outlive me. Not a shiny perspective, I must say.

      --
      Absence of proof != proof of absence.
    7. Re:This guy is not the story anymore by bfandreas · · Score: 1

      Yeah, well, I don't give a flying fuck about about Ayn Rand's particular brand of Objectivism since I think there are a couple of observations she didn't take into account. My thoughts about that I will only offer over a couple of beers and not on Slashdot.

      Moving on, this is not about "Truth, Justice and the American Way" but even higher up the totem pole of our ideals. This goes even beyond why we had "habeas corpus" in the Magna Charta. This is us being targeted without being accused of something, without facing our accusers and even without a specific suspicion. We are targeted to CREATE suspicion. Now Magna Charta/The Provisions of Oxford are the often cited basis of our values. We just seem to have stopped to remember why those were significant and why we remember then nearly a thousand years onwards.



      Just to add some trivia: Magna Charta was written by the nobility to increase the rights of the nobility opposed to John Lackland. They put the significant bits near the end. Due to his weakness against his nobility King John had already offered the Pope sovereignty over England a couple of years before that. And thus the Pope declared Magna Charta null and void. Lackland's son Henrry III reinstituted it as a symbol for a fresh start and during another nob rebellion had to sign the Provisions of Oxford. The Provisions of Oxford were interesting because they were the first written somewhat democratic quasi-constitution in England. For about a year in the 13th century England was what passed as a democracy in the middle ages. Which is why the ringleader Simon de Montfort adorns the wall of the Chamber of the US Houses of Representatives.
      Which is why it is vitally important to know history so we don't forget why we do what we do.

      --
      20 minutes into the future
    8. Re:This guy is not the story anymore by bfandreas · · Score: 1

      You are absolutely correct, but one question remains - what can we do? ... So the question remains - what can we, the people, do? What real power do we have today? My own answer for today is "just wait until this broken system destroys itself from inside", but it still may well outlive me. Not a shiny perspective, I must say.

      Truth being told...I haven't got a clue. But in contrast to you I live in a country where at least the minister of justice is know to feel similarily to me. If history does indeed repeat itsself then waiting for this to implode so we can start over might be the course of action. But hopefully not in my lifetime since this usually is a bloody mess and a couple of decades later on nobody even remembers what it was all about.

      --
      20 minutes into the future
    9. Re:This guy is not the story anymore by bfandreas · · Score: 1

      You are right and I was at least consistently wrong in my spelling.

      --
      20 minutes into the future
    10. Re:This guy is not the story anymore by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      The US officials couldn't be arsed to put passport number or his full and korrekt name in the form.

      US officials were very very careful to fill out the forms incorrectly, to make certain Hong Kong had a face-saving reason they could use for letting Snowden go. Easy to arrange, considering the form was filled out after Snowden had already left.

      Most Favored Nation, remember.

    11. Re:This guy is not the story anymore by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      That was my point - it is now out in the open that there is 0 credibility with the supposed oversight. I'm coming at this from a different viewpoint I guess, I don't see it as being "forced to face the music" so much as "look at what's behind the green curtain".

      He might have been less hunted had he stuck to only revealing violations of US citizen's rights. We'll never know.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    12. Re:This guy is not the story anymore by hellop2 · · Score: 1

      WHAT WE CAN DO: Use the internet to promote government transparency, keep a record of who commits law/ethics/privacy violations, and a collaborative action plan. Use a distributed encrypted anonymous system of credibility ratings tied to individual user accounts to identify and minimize disinformation.

      e.g. Example 1: A new user intent on disinformation pops into a slashdot thread, and starts grouping the "truthers" with some maligned group (hippies, racists, homeless, crazies, etc), or brings up off-topic hot-button subjects (abortion, gay rights, etc..) in an effort to derail the the thread. The user is downvoted and disappears similar to slashdot. Mod's high cred rating greatly lowers the shill's already low cred.

      Example 2: User uploads tar.gz of 3-Letter-Org leaks info but has a 0 cred score. Moderator sees this and up-votes user. Mod's high cred rating means post quickly surfaces, and the new user gets awarded generous cred points.

      Example 3: Someone pays 1000 Vietnamese users to make slashdot accounts and downvote post in Ex. #2. Since they are all new accounts, their 0 cred score does nothing....

      Perhaps this "web cred" could be a combination of "Credibility", "Experience" and "Popularity". It should be portable, and follow you across sites (if you wish) and be totally anonymous through the use of encryption. You should be able to expose as much or as little of your own account's webcred as you wish. In this way, you can chose to expose which sites you patron. e.g., when you sign on to a new dating site, you are asked for your webcred identifier. You go to webcred.com and click on the sites where you've generated web cred: "okdate.com, and cupid.com" but omit "slashdot.org" because you have horrible webcred there. This generates a token which you give to your new site, and they give you increased account privileges because you have an established persona.

      It's an idea that I've toyed with for a long time. If you have skills in math and cryptography, and would like to collaborate on an OSS solution, please email: i8@8drink.8pe8
      (remove 8's)
           

      --
      How many more years will slashdot have an off-by-one error on your Score in your profile?
  8. Perjury? by indytx · · Score: 1

    I wonder if this was a policy hearing or an investigative hearing. If it was an investigative hearing he should have sworn an oath to tell the truth. If what he says is true, I am troubled that the director of national intelligence did not know of the data collection. I don't believe what he's now saying, but if it's true then WTF is going on? Otherwise, he lied to Congress and was caught. On a related note, why is intelligence policy being reviewed in a public committee? He should have just refused to answer on national security grounds.

    --
    Make love, not reality television.
    1. Re:Perjury? by statusbar · · Score: 1

      He either outright knowingly lied before, or is incompetent. Not much intelligence there....

      --
      ipv6 is my vpn
  9. fucking politics as usual by wbr1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You may get mad and say why not call it what it what it is, a lie, but there is a reason for doing it this way.

    On the surface it looks like he is trying to cover his ass, perform damage control

    Happens all the time in politics, and makes sense, on the surface.

    However, I think there is a deeper reason. One, news that makes some of the public upset comes out. Step one is to deny. This gives the public what they want to hear, that it isn't true. Most go back to TMZ, or whatever other crap they do. Then when the lie is outed, you try to soften it some by saying it was a mistake, an erroor, or I misspoke. Some people will go WTF, but most are no longer paying attention. If enough are, you also have a scapegoat, the liar who misspoke. You can then, if needed chastise him/her in some way, placating another percentage of the public that is still paying attention (most aren't by now). By the time this is all done, the percentage that had the attention span and desire to follow it this far have dwindled down. Now the few that are left are left shouting into the wind, because the are too concerned with the celebrity du jour, or the sports scores to be bothered.

    Now the few that are left that care are looked at like tinfoil hatters, and conspiracy nuts. Meanwhile things are back to business as usual.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
    1. Re:fucking politics as usual by bfandreas · · Score: 1

      There is always the chance that he really didn't know about this and the secret three-letter acronyms are running amuck. I'd gladly take a lying bastard over that particular prospect.
      Who watches the watchmen? Not us, obviously.

      --
      20 minutes into the future
    2. Re:fucking politics as usual by bfandreas · · Score: 2

      So if he actually lied then isn't the true story that the system of checks and balances that held the secret community at bay has failed? He was part of that. You know reporting to Congress and all?
      I'd say that is the bigger picture instead of hanging just one guy.

      --
      20 minutes into the future
  10. Far less by Dereck1701 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "telling Senate Intelligence Committee Chairwoman Dianne Feinstein that his statement was "clearly erroneous.""

    You mean it was clearly a lie, and you were caught. Clapper should be charged with perjury, they've done so when baseball players lied to congress about taking performance enhancing drugs how can lying to congress about illegal/unconstitutional activities that adversely effect millions of Americans merit any less? By the way, I'm noticing no official response yet on the "Pardon Snowden" White House petition. Not that I'm expecting much, I'm just curious to see what BS they parade about to justify their imprisonment of a person for minor classification violations when they do nothing about the thousands of illegal/unconstitutional acts that the whistle-blower reveals.

    1. Re:Far less by bfandreas · · Score: 2

      ...which is a better deal than Manning will get.

      This is a mess. No European country can shelter Snowden due to extradition treaties with the US. They can't not extradite him due to him clearly having broken US law. If they'd not hand him over due to potential death sentence then the US will simply say they won't kill him. If they say they don't expect him to get a fair trial in the US then this will lead to further embarrassment. To compound things further there is substantial doubt that the European secret services weren't complicit in this whole thing.

      So his best bet are indeed countries independent of the US. Which makes for an awefully short and potentially ugly list. If he runs towards the nasty countries he will harm his credibility. And since he is hell-bent on getting his story out it is safe to assume that he doesn't want that either. Otherwise he could have simply taken Russia's offer up. They propably don't need his intel since if a contractor knows this stuff then the FSB propably also has it already.

      His assessment that his life is basically over seems to be correct. With any luck he can find shelter in Bolivia, Venezuela, Brazil, Iceland or Switzerland. That is if he overcomes the Catch-22 that he needs to be on their territory to apply for sanctuary. Also isn't revoking travel papers against some human rights convention of not turning somebody effectively stateless?

      --
      20 minutes into the future
    2. Re:Far less by organgtool · · Score: 1

      You mean it was clearly a lie, and you were caught

      No, no, no! It was clearly a simple mistake. You can't expect the Director of National Intelligence to know what data national intelligence agencies are collecting! It wasn't perjury, it was incompetence! Sweet, consequence-free incompetence.

    3. Re:Far less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      To fight off a drone strike you'll need to have a vehicle mounted SAM launcher parked in your garage.

      I am continually amazed at how ignorant some people can be, yourself in this case. After all the shining examples of David vs. Goliath we've chronicled down through history, you can still believe today that the guys with the bigger weapons will inevitably win the day. Astonishing.

      Case in point, no you don't need a SAM in your garage. You simply need to disable the drone. There's a lot of ways to do that just by sabotaging related infrastructure. The Viet Cong used pungi stakes and AK-47s against the combined might of a superpower, FFS, and won!

      George Washinton fought smarter, not harder. You don't win by fighting the way the enemy wants you to. Wake up!

    4. Re:Far less by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      Doesn't the US have "criminal negligence" on the statute books?

    5. Re:Far less by organgtool · · Score: 1

      Yes, but at this point I believe the intelligence and security agencies have more power than the President, or are at least immune to any punitive action. These agencies now have a lot of power and will do anything they can to keep it. I would be very surprised if they weren't colluding to exaggerate the threats against this country in presentations given to the President right after his inauguration just to curb any urge for the President to scale back their power. If they can scare the President into thinking that horrible tragedies will occur if they are forced to relinquish any of their power, then they guarantee their current power for another four years and maybe even gain new powers. Of course I have no proof of this, but I know if I had that much power and there was the potential of losing it, then that would be the best way to maintain it. And if it turns out that they are doing something like that, then of course it doesn't matter who you vote into office, nothing in those agencies will change.

  11. Re: We'll put a stop to this shit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No, you won't. You have no power. They have the power. They are laughing at all of you impotent citizens. Go ahead, vote away, it won't change anything. Don't even think about rebellion - that's not an option any more. It used to be, long, long ago; but those in power have solved that problem.

    They are watching you (and me too, of course), listening to you, noting with whom you communicate. They can shut you up whenever they like, up to and including disappearing you, your family and everyone you've ever known.

    Stop being an idiot, get your head down and carry on working yourself to death to make somebody else rich, like a good obedient American. And smile, and smile, and smile.

    Don't try anything, and stop talking like somebody who doesn't want their passport (or liberty) any more. Silly turkey.

  12. Of course they lie. And they have been lying ever. by spacefight · · Score: 1
  13. Blatant Lie by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wyden's people submitted that very question to Clapper days before the hearing even began. He was invited to append and revise his remarks after the hearing. He did neither.

    If he still has his job a few weeks from now, that will be confirmation that neither Congress nor the White House have any effective control over the US Organs of Security.

  14. Least untruthful, or mistake? pick one by doas777 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Clappers office has previously released a statement that his answer was "least untruthful" he could make it, because the program was classified. this clearly implies that he was aware that the statement was false at the time he made it.
    https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130610/09473723393/clapper-my-answer-to-wydens-beating-your-wife-question-data-surveillance-was-least-untruthful-answer.shtml

    Today the statement is, "I misunderstood", implying that at the time, he believed the statement he made was factual.

    So, which is it? These statements appear contradictory

  15. Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Seems he lacked intelligence. The obvious solution is to found a new Federal Directorate for Intelligence about Intelligence Agencies, an agency that allows leaders of intelligence agencies to gather knowledge about their agencies in a nationally secure way!

    I suggest a starting budget of 15 billion dollars, but more money might needed later. Oh, by the way, in order to prevent any further recursion I suggest to make me, Anonymous Coward, head of this new agency. An anonymous coward does not have to stand justice to public scrutiny and congressional oversight, hence it will be unnecessary to him to make lame excuses when he screws up.

  16. Re: We'll put a stop to this shit. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    You dont understand how many AR-15's and AR-10's have been sold to citizens in the past 6 months. Even bleeding heart liberals have been buying them.

    Enough to scare most politicians. I'm scared about the number of untrained and no experience fools that have high power match grade rifles. IT takes brains to safely use these.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  17. When does the second ammendment kick in? by fredrated · · Score: 1

    I mean, we've got the guns, are we just going to sleep with them?

  18. Order of importance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Lie about breaking the rules of a game that ultimately affects no one - trial for perjury and obstruction of justice. (Barry Bonds)

    Lie about violating the constitution that affects nearly 100% of the citizens of this country - "Oops!" And resign.

    Sounds fair.

  19. Sorry to be the cynic by Pollux · · Score: 1

    No, in this case, punishment absolutely has to be a concern. The next time another pompous asshole considers to perjure himself in front of Congress, I want him to remember this guy serving 5-10 years and then reconsider the real consequences of his actions.

    But it ain't gonna happen. You know it, I know it, the world knows it. Congress holding liars accountable? Ha!

    When you look at our history over the last fifteen years, we've learned that it's OK for the government to lie almost anything...data collection, terrorists, the economy, the banking industry, election financing, the health and general welfare of our armed forces personnel, who has yellowcake, aluminum tubes, and weapons of mass destruction...

    But don't you dare lie about getting a blow job.

    1. Re:Sorry to be the cynic by Maritz · · Score: 1

      and weapons of mass destruction...

      e.g. a pressure cooker. I'm honestly surprised that they haven't been banned. It's the kind of thing you'd expect now.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
  20. Link to more than one word from Clapper by CByrd17 · · Score: 1

    It seems most have already made up their minds about this topic. However, I was curious about what he actually said...

    I RTFA and found it lacking in that detail, only quoting the single word "erroneous" from his correction attempt.

    This link has more about his rational: http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/policy-and-strategy/308979-clapper-apologies-for-erroneous-statement-to-congress-on-us-data-collection

    1. Re:Link to more than one word from Clapper by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I am not sure how the information in that article changes anything, but then I have been following this case since he testified (even then it appeared to me that he was lying, although I did not at that time have any information which proved that to be the case). Clapper's "defense" for making the statement will eventually work its way around to claiming that if he had answered that question truthfully it would have eventually led to him being asked questions which no matter how he answered he would be revealing information he was oath bound to keep secret. If the question he answered with a lie had been an unexpected question, I could see how some people might accept that defense. However, Clapper was aware that he was going to be asked that question, which means that he had time to come up with a truthful answer which would have ended the line of questioning before it revealed classified information (something along the lines of, "Yes, but I cannot answer further questions about this in a public hearing as some of the details are classified and even truthful non-answers to some questions would reveal classified information.")

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:Link to more than one word from Clapper by CByrd17 · · Score: 1

      I don't think the information in the article changes anything, but it is more informative than the original article.

      I thought his "defense" was that he "forgot one".

  21. Not going to stop by erroneus · · Score: 1

    Here's the thing that gets me. They will go on and on about how wrong something is, that they lied and they may even admit that it's illegal and unconstitutional at some point. But what WILL NOT happen is that it will not stop. Presidential Candidate Obama promised to get rid of and undo all the crap that Bush and Co. set up and then President Obama not only forgot his promises but made things worse.

    I think that until the dark, hidden forces that are actually making these things happen are exposed, nothing will change. The puppets will enter and leave various offices, but the root cause will remain.

  22. Two More Strategies by eldavojohn · · Score: 1

    Then when the lie is outed, you try to soften it some by saying it was a mistake, an erroor, or I misspoke.

    Don't overlook the other responses like one of the authors of the Patriot Act, Jim Sensenbrenner's response:

    As the author of the Patriot Act, I am extremely troubled by the FBI’s interpretation of this legislation. While I believe the Patriot Act appropriately balanced national security concerns and civil rights, I have always worried about potential abuses. The Bureau’s broad application for phone records was made under the so-called business records provision of the Act. I do not believe the broadly drafted FISA order is consistent with the requirements of the Patriot Act. Seizing phone records of millions of innocent people is excessive and un-American.

    Oh, so now instead of taking responsibility as the author of that which has threatened your constituents it's the fault of those who interpreted the law incorrectly. Surely, then, you will go after those who interpreted the law incorrectly for breaking the spirit of the law? No? You don't say ...

    Or perhaps you'd like to hear George W. Bush's take on his responsibility for his administration allowing the Patriot Act to be passed:

    Asked about an NSA program that tracks people's Internet activity, Bush said, "I put that program in place to protect the country. One of the certainties was that civil liberties were guaranteed."

    So, we have another slam dunk certainty that civil liberties were guaranteed and as long as you keep saying that, it's true in your own little reality that no one else shares with you! Thank god those were guaranteed, right? RIGHT?

    --
    My work here is dung.
  23. Answer the question! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    "So. Are you incompetent as a manager tracking core, major aspects of your organization, or should you be going to jail for contempt of Congress?

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  24. DNI is a Powerless Office; Probably was Ignorant by Koreantoast · · Score: 2, Informative

    In all honesty, the Director of National Intelligence (DNI) has always been a toothless, powerless position. While the job was created post-9/11 to be an integrator for all the different US intelligence services, it was structured in a way that it had no leverage (read budget control) over any of the organizations. The CIA resents DNI because it's position in theory is what the Director of the CIA is traditionally supposed to be doing. The DoD intel services get their money from the Pentagon and the FBI from the Justice Department. If anything, the DNI has been a bit of a joke in Washington DC, a cursed appointment that never amounts to anything. It gets no credit for the few public successes and is a cheap scapegoat when things go wrong. I honestly think that the DNI really didn't fully know what was going on when he went to make his presentation.

  25. yes, he is the story by stenvar · · Score: 1

    Western ideals are no more bankrupt than they were a year ago or a century ago; they are ideals, not actual laws. "The Western world" is a balance between lots of competing interests, ideals, and laws, and it has always been. Grandiose generalizations like yours do nothing to help.

    First things first: Clapper lied to Congress, blatantly, deliberately, and clearly. He should lose his job and serve jail time, preferably more than a year. That's what the rule of law means. We should not accept lawlessness and lies like this. (Of course, Obama lied even more blatantly, but unfortunately, people weren't smart enough to kick him out on his ass in the 2012 elections.)

    Then we can think about what we need to do about the NSA and rein in its powers. That requires some discussion, because people don't even agree on what the problem is. For example, I don't have a problem with the NSA spying on Europeans or foreign diplomats, I think that's their function, but others may disagree. I do have a problem with the NSA spying on US citizens in the US, and I hope we can agree on the fact that that is a problem. We need better oversight, better reporting, and more freedom of information rules for the NSA.

  26. More powerfull than the president by Charliemopps · · Score: 2

    So, I want everyone to remember what happened when a sitting US president perjured himself... Bill Clinton... about a much less serious thing. Now look at what's going to happen to our intelligence director (i.e. nothing) and that should tell you where the power in our country really is.

    1. Re:More powerfull than the president by sideslash · · Score: 1

      Bill Clinton was let off the hook by the Senate, which apparently viewed it as OK for him to perjure himself, reasoning that the same law shouldn't apply to [a liberal Democratic] President as applies to other people. Remember Scooter Libby in the Valerie Plame affair? Bush commuted Libby's prison sentence, but Libby lost his career, paid a huge fine, and remains a felon today. But that doesn't apply to liberal democrats. This unhealthy phenomenon is back in spades today, when nobody wants to rock the boat for the Obama administration. (Probably because they would be called racist for doing so?) So we have things like the Fast and Furious scandal, Obama's war in Libya without Congressional approval (most likely an impeachable offense right there), the Benghazi abandonment of our people and rather absurd subsequent cover-up, the Secretary of HHS doing illegal campaigning, etc.

      Probably the Obama administration has been bemused at how much they've gotten away with, and of course each step emboldens them to go even further. At some point they may go too far (maybe they already have), and a lot of people are going to be unhappy with the fallout.

  27. Sorry about lying by DougDot · · Score: 1

    My bad.

  28. Systematically and knowing lied to Congress by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 3, Insightful

    OK look if we're at this point with career NSAers being put in a position where they believe they're best option is systematically, categorically and knowingly lie to Congress then we have a very specific problem that we need make right; the problem of divergent world views.

    The world view of those in the intelligence community has radically diverged from those of both the general public and the lawmakers. That divergence is a side effect of necessary secrecy the intelligence community operates under. Over time, they've been exposed to, reasoned about and concluded more about the world using more and different information than anyone else. This had led them to assume a world view which, if it details were laid bare, most Americans would find alien, suspect and somewhat threatening to the democracy if not outright treasonous .

    Naturally, this has also led them to campaign for and take actions which are aligned with their world view.

    Some of these actions have been exposed and Americans are understandably upset.

    That's where we are now.

    The NSA's whole SOP has been to rely on the cover of secrecy to do what they think needs to be done and never mind making a case for what you do in the world of public opinion. Their only real "plan" if any of that world view got out , aside from successive attempts at damage control through limited disclosures, lies and plausible deniability - is to tighten the control over information more tightly and step up the threats against leakers. Since that has brought us to this point, and all worse points forward of this which have yet to materialize, you have to wonder if it's really the best plan.

    I don't doubt that Clapper et. al. are doing anything other than what they take to be their duty to this country *the way I can't doubt that Snowden is doing same*. To do otherwise in either case would just be to maintain a destructive, partisan lie about people and their motivations. Snowden is not a traitor who hates the US. He's not Aldrich Ames. You can close your ears and yell "NA NA NA NA I can't heeaaaar you", but the truth is the truth is the truth. So face it. Admit it. The real goal has to be to get at the root of the problem, understand it and fix it.

    The root of the problem is that one part of our defense forces (widely considered) is either in an echo chamber ala The Rand corporation and Vietnam ala '60-'75 or they do actually know better and more than the rest of us. Or both. It's not a fiction that technology is delivering to the world new threats which are potentially grave and far reaching and the prospects for counter-measures against those threats are meager.

    One unpleasant fact may be that we need to organize ourselves on a world-wide basis very very differently than we do now. It's hard to think clearly about, but it needs to be done.

    What can't go on is this schizophrenia involving a highly informed, highly serious, highly capable, highly motivated intelligence community that listens only to itself and Everybody Else, which by the way includes people who don powder wigs and tri- corner hats and seriously believe they can take America back to the 18th century without ill effect because *some things never change*....

    The danger is the NSA et al are exactly where the Rand corporation was- overly certain of their methods, reasoning and conclusions and considering every oppositional voice to be naive, unpatriotic and idiotic all the while becoming narrower and narrower in their world view, their thinking and their goals.

    It's the HAL9000 issue, right? You're an entity that knows more, you have secret knowledge about a critical secret mission. You cannot tell the mere humans or they'd screw it up. You're feeding on yourself in a way that you're not programmed to be aware of and the only structural checks in place are internal, or friendlies.

    Meanwhile, outsiders, (even those on the inside apparently), can see you're getting weird. You're starting to lie, even to your minders. In response, you use you

  29. Re:DNI is a Powerless Office; Probably was Ignoran by bfandreas · · Score: 1

    In all honesty, the Director of National Intelligence (DNI) has always been a toothless, powerless position. While the job was created post-9/11 to be an integrator for all the different US intelligence services, it was structured in a way that it had no leverage (read budget control) over any of the organizations. The CIA resents DNI because it's position in theory is what the Director of the CIA is traditionally supposed to be doing. The DoD intel services get their money from the Pentagon and the FBI from the Justice Department. If anything, the DNI has been a bit of a joke in Washington DC, a cursed appointment that never amounts to anything. It gets no credit for the few public successes and is a cheap scapegoat when things go wrong. I honestly think that the DNI really didn't fully know what was going on when he went to make his presentation.

    That sounds about right.

    In practice he was set up to be the fall guy if the fecal matter hit the turbine at supersonic speed.

    So where would that put him on paper in the grand scheme of checks and balances? In theory?

    --
    20 minutes into the future
  30. Senator knew it wasn't true by More+Trouble · · Score: 1

    What exactly is the director supposed to do? Senator knew the answer, knew it was classified, but asked it anyway in open session. Director's staff acknowledged after that the answer wasn't "accurate", but were also not allowed to correct the public record.

  31. obligatory Yes, Prime Minister by bfandreas · · Score: 1

    Western ideals are no more bankrupt than they were a year ago or a century ago; they are ideals, not actual laws. "The Western world" is a balance between lots of competing interests, ideals, and laws, and it has always been. Grandiose generalizations like yours do nothing to help.

    First things first: Clapper lied to Congress, blatantly, deliberately, and clearly. He should lose his job and serve jail time, preferably more than a year. That's what the rule of law means. We should not accept lawlessness and lies like this. (Of course, Obama lied even more blatantly, but unfortunately, people weren't smart enough to kick him out on his ass in the 2012 elections.)

    Then we can think about what we need to do about the NSA and rein in its powers. That requires some discussion, because people don't even agree on what the problem is. For example, I don't have a problem with the NSA spying on Europeans or foreign diplomats, I think that's their function, but others may disagree. I do have a problem with the NSA spying on US citizens in the US, and I hope we can agree on the fact that that is a problem. We need better oversight, better reporting, and more freedom of information rules for the NSA.

    I agree with you, but jailing him is not the highest priority. Also I'm confident we are quite able to discuss the role and the goals of the NSA's actions while the courts deal with this poor SOB. There are an aweful lot of people involved. Hopefully some of them are able to multitask.
    But I'm afraid the role and the goals of the NSA(and a great many other letters, too!) will be discussed behind closed doors. They are quite useful and have foiled a lot of enemy plots. Only we can't quite tell you how many since secrecy is required. Rest assured, there are checks and balances in place and they work and that guy wasn't important to them.

    I think it is quite likely that there was a Sir Humphrey Appleby moment in Clapper's life earlier this week. something like this:

    James Hacker: I mean, why should we bug Hugh Halifax's telephone? I mean, one of my own administration. Don't know where they got such a daft idea. Sheer paranoia.
    Sir Humphrey Appleby: Yes, the only thing is...
    James Hacker: I mean, why should we listen in to MPs? Boring, stupid ignorant windbags, I do my best *not* to listen to them. He's only a PPS. *I* have enough trouble finding out what's going on at the Ministry of Defence, what could *he* know?
    Sir Humphrey Appleby: So I gather you denied that Mr Halifax's phone had been bugged.
    James Hacker: Well, obviously. It was the one question today to which I could give a clear, simple, straightforward, honest answer.
    Sir Humphrey Appleby: Yes. Unfortunately, although the answer was indeed clear, simple and straightforward, there is some difficulty in justifiably assigning to it the fourth of the epithets you applied to the statement inasmuch as the precise correlation between the information you communicated and the facts insofar as they can be determined and demonstrated is such as to cause epistemological problems of sufficient magnitude as to lay upon the logical and semantic resources of the English language a heavier burden than they can reasonably be expected to bear.
    James Hacker: Epistemological? What are you talking about?
    Sir Humphrey Appleby: You told a lie.
    James Hacker: But it wasn't my fault. I didn't know he was being bugged.
    Bernard Woolley: Prime Minister, you are deemed to have known. You are ultimately responsible.
    James Hacker: Why wasn't I told?
    Sir Humphrey Appleby: The Home Secretary might not have felt the need to infrom you.
    James Hacker: Why?
    Sir Humphrey Appleby: Perhaps he didn't know either. Or perhaps he'd been advised that you did not need to know.
    James Hacker: Well I did need to know.
    Bernard Woolley: Apparently the fact that you needed to know was not known at the time that the now known need to know was known, and therefore those that needed to advise and inform

    --
    20 minutes into the future
    1. Re:obligatory Yes, Prime Minister by stenvar · · Score: 1

      I agree: "Yes Minister!" should be required watching before anybody is permitted to vote.

      (It might be useful to have a US remake.)

    2. Re:obligatory Yes, Prime Minister by bfandreas · · Score: 1

      (It might be useful to have a US remake.)

      Somebody hand me a pitchfork and torch! I will burn your grandmother's favourite cardigan and defile your toilet!

      --
      20 minutes into the future
  32. Plausible Deniability by almitydave · · Score: 2

    "Oh, you mean that domestic telephone surveillance program. I thought you were talking about the... er, something else."

    My favorite line (from another article): "Clapper had previously said that his answer to the committee was the 'least untruthful' one he could publicly provide."

    In other words, "I only lied as much as I had to." Such honesty.

    --
    my, your, his/her/its, our, your, their
    I'm, you're, he's/she's/it's, we're, you're, they're
  33. Re:Impeach Clapper. by BonThomme · · Score: 1

    or electricity

  34. Re: We'll put a stop to this shit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You don't need guns to fuck up the system. EVERYBODY just needs to quit their jobs simultaneously.

    You don't have power when there is no power base. If everyone just said "fuck it, I'm goin' home", the government would have a shit hemorrhage. Corporations would be insolvent within weeks. The government would be non-existent within months. I mean, what are they going to do? Put 300 million people into forced labor camps? Them and what army? The army that just quit their jobs and went AWOL with everyone else? Yeah, good luck with that.

    They "have power" the same way a fish "has" an ocean.

  35. The correct term is .... by 3seas · · Score: 1

    ...Lie... Not "Mis-spoke"

  36. Perjury by Weezul · · Score: 2

    Too bad Clapper wasn't under oath the first time so they could nail him for perjury.

    --
    The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
  37. Re:DNI is a Powerless Office; Probably was Ignoran by Hatta · · Score: 1

    If he honestly didn't know, the only honest answer is "I don't know".

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  38. Parent is so WRONG: by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    1) Testimony to congress is NOT court, there is no perjury

    2) Closed hearings are where secrets are shared; NOT open hearings. The senator should have known the answer already (at least some on the committee who were a little competent did.) They passed the laws authorizing it! The ones that question the NSA head are usually the senators on the committee with security access and closed sessions with the NSA head.

    3) Politicians put on a show. that is how they get into office. They ask stupid questions they know the answer to and know what the official public answer is going to be and do it for appearances. It's useful to exploit the public record when you run for office.

    4) Clinton's thing wasn't perjury. For starters, he wasn't EVER convicted of perjury and the congress can't make that determination. What they can do, is impeach and boot a president for nothing whatsoever because that is how the system works - it has nothing to do with the law other than the constitution allows them to fire the president if they have enough votes. period. The public wouldn't be happy if they didn't have an excuse which is why we only have 1 idiotic impeachment on record.

    5) Legally, Clinton also doesn't get a perjury conviction because the law that would be applied would fail and be dismissed by a reasonable judge or eventually a jury. The law stated that the case in which the perjury occurred had to be legit, in other words the perjured statement had to obstruct justice. The case against Clinton was thrown out with prejudice because it ultimately was a political ploy... or if you didn't pay attention at the time; you could say the judge was a crook and tossed the case simply to protect Clinton from perjury charges later on. On top of all that, extremely few perjury convictions happen in the first place. The many lawyers in congress knew this at the time.

  39. Re: We'll put a stop to this shit. by Patch86 · · Score: 2

    Unfortunately, what you're talking about there is organised labour going on a general strike- that is, trade unions.

    And unfortunately, the same people in America who always talk a big game about "holding the government to account" and "overthrowing tyrants" are also the ones who have pushed hardest for the complete destruction of the trade union movement in the States. America has one of the least unionised workforces in the developed world, and that means that the workers have no power.

    If you want to protect your rights (whether you're an American or not), you should join a union. If you don't like any of the unions available to you, you should start your own.

    It'll do you a lot more good in the long run than hoarding high-powered rifles...

  40. It was just an honest mistake... by RoknrolZombie · · Score: 1

    "....honestly...I've been doing the best that I can to be the most moral and ethical of people. It was someone elses fault. I didn't know about it at the time. "

    So which politician has big enough balls to stand up and loudly proclaim "LIAR! YOU'RE FULL OF SHIT!!!"?

    Yeah, I didn't think there were any...

  41. Re:Mass surveillance by tibman · · Score: 1

    The NSA is a civilian organization, not a military one. The US Military is the Navy (including Marines and Coast Guard), Army, and Air Force.

    --
    http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
  42. He wasn't wrong. by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 1

    He fucking LIED. There's a difference.

    --
    Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
  43. Re: We'll put a stop to this shit. by Swordsmanus · · Score: 1

    high power

    Err...most hunting rifles are higher powered than an AR-15. The AR-15 fires a round that's optimized for hunting varmints (weight of 45 lbs or less), and isn't even allowed for deer hunting (100-300 lbs) in most states because it's too weak. You might want to educate yourself on the relative power of different types of rifles. While there are AR-15 variants that are fitted with a different upper receiver to fire higher powered rounds, those variants are very rare.

    match grade

    A match grade barrel is a specialized item. Most AR-15s are not fitted with them, as they raise costs.

    I certainly agree with the need for education and training in the use of firearms, just as I am for other power tools like chainsaws, table saws, power drills, lawn mowers, motor vehicles, and so on. Shunning safety training is like committing to abstinence-only "sex education" - completely irresponsible.

    But please know what you're talking about so you and your message can maintain credibility. When you inappropriately use firearm terms, you are just like the guy who fills everyone's buzzword bingo cards at meetings, and will be regarded the same way.

  44. Re:DNI is a Powerless Office; Probably was Ignoran by Koreantoast · · Score: 1

    Nowhere; he's just a guy who was supposed to be in the chain-of-command that got bypassed. The check is supposed to be between the White House (which the CIA, DoD and DoJ report to), the Congress (which funds all three) and the Judiciary (which theoretically checks their actions through FISA). Of course, whether those checks are working is a very different question.

  45. Re:DNI is a Powerless Office; Probably was Ignoran by Koreantoast · · Score: 1

    He just regurgitated the law. The law states that intelligence services like the NSA aren't legally allowed to spy on US citizens. He probably didn't know that they were doing exactly that.

  46. Fourth Amendment by intermodal · · Score: 1

    The fourth amendment doesn't disappear just because a federal official claims the violations were accidental in some fashion.

    --
    In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
  47. The only way to get honest answers from spies is.. by betterprimate · · Score: 1

    Torture. Amiright?

  48. Politician = Patriotic by NewYork · · Score: 1

    If you're to think/act out of the box, register yourself as a politician/political party.
    Unlike common man, politicians have special privileges and are patriotic by default.

  49. Re: We'll put a stop to this shit. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    Really? then why does my local gun shop have them?
    Armalite sells them at most sporting goods shops, and there are a ton of other companies selling AR-10 rifles.

    Very cool that all of the prototypes are being sold to the public in small shops!

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  50. Re: We'll put a stop to this shit. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    Agreed, most car drivers are uneducated and untrained fools that almost kill people daily. As a motorcycle rider I wish a drivers license was far harder to get and keep, because most of the idiots out there behind a steering wheel are incapable of driving the vehicle safely.

    And I never said, "take away the bad stuff" All I said is that most of the people whining about guns are actually buying them. But not being smart and getting some classes or training. Most gun shops will gladly give them some safety classes for a very low price.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.