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Ask Slashdot: Preventing Snowden-Style Security Breaches?

Nerval's Lobster writes "The topic of dealing with insider threats has entered the spotlight in a big way recently thanks to Edward Snowden. A former contractor who worked as an IT administrator for the National Security Agency via Booz Allen Hamilton, Snowden rocked the public with his controversial (and unauthorized) disclosure of top secret documents describing the NSA's telecommunications and Internet surveillance programs to The Guardian. Achieving a layer of solid protection from insiders is a complex issue; when it comes to protecting a business's data, organizations more often focus on threats from the outside. But when a trusted employee or contractor uses privileged access to take company data, the aftermath can be as catastrophic to the business or organization as an outside attack. An administrator can block removal of sensitive data via removable media (Snowden apparently lifted sensitive NSA data using a USB device) by disabling USB slots or controlling them via access or profile, or relying on DLP (which has its own issues). They can install software that monitors systems and does its best to detect unusual employee behavior, but many offerings in this category don't go quite far enough. They can track data as it moves through the network. But all of these security practices come with vulnerabilities. What do you think the best way is to lock down a system against malicious insiders?"

381 comments

  1. simple by greenfruitsalad · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Simple. Do good, make people working for you feel they're doing something good for the world.

    1. Re:simple by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, well, perhaps in La-la Land. Here, in reality, no matter how good your organization may be (for whatever definition of "good" you choose to use), you may still end up with bad employees. The question of securing your data shouldn't be about good or evil, or any particular moral judgment, but simply about how to make sure you're critical and confidential data doesn't end up being ripped off.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:simple by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Exactly. If an employer is doing nothing wrong, then at least long-term, it has nothing to hide. :-D

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    3. Re:simple by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hark! Do I hear the approach of the Freedom Drone?

      Stop launching Hellfires on babies, and stop treating the Citizens of your Republic like suspects in your dragnet.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    4. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple. Do good, make people working for you feel they're doing something good for the world.

      Exactly, because all the most altruistically great companies had no data they would like to keep from the public and their competitors.

      Slashdot is really fucked up lately.

    5. Re:simple by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. If an employer is doing nothing wrong, then at least long-term, it has nothing to hide. :-D

      There are still merely-self-interested insiders: It's practically a tradition for Mr. Sleazy McSales to abscond with all the customer data when he accepts a position with the competition, and his engineering counterparts to lift design docs and the like for the same purpose.

      Doing good does have the advantage of reducing disillusionment among your otherwise-least-corruptable people, and helps prevent economically-irrational leaking; but you still have to worry about the merely mercenary.

    6. Re:simple by jovius · · Score: 1

      Ultimately free individuals can never be contained.

      Therefore complete transparency should be applied. The nationalist paradigms and constructs are futile. Ideals and methods can be implanted, but they are not what you are.

    7. Re:simple by kthreadd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let's say that the PRISM program managed to stop X number of terrorist attacks. As an NSA employee you might very well consider your work to be of good. Otherwise you would probably not work there. And this is probably true for many types of jobs. Good is a relative term, it depends on the viewer.

    8. Re:simple by rtfa-troll · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The question of securing your data shouldn't be about good or evil, or any particular moral judgment, but simply about how to make sure you're critical and confidential data doesn't end up being ripped off.

      There's a certain level that you can go that way. However, in the end, to be useful data has to be loaded into people's heads. People can then unload part of it elsewhere. A very important part of securing the data is making sure that those people who could do that choose not to because they see the value of your mission. Those people who surround them also see the value and put social pressure not to reveal secrets. When the US loses it's moral authority by doing things identical to acts it has previously criticised this is obviously going to increase the risk of a leak.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    9. Re:simple by Nemesisghost · · Score: 0

      Yeah, as if "doing bad things" was the only reason people stole from their employers. There are a myriad of reasons why someone would "leak" or "steal" confidential information from their employers, and most of them having nothing to do with the how their employer does business. There are such things as "bad" people, and they will do "evil" things no matter what.

      Even if you believe that people are all good, and only break the rules to necessitate a greater good, that still has no bearing on how an entity conducts itself. Take for example Mitt Romney using TurboTax(or some other self filing service) to do his taxes. If TurboTax had an employee who was a Left Wing Nut Job and thought that Obama was going to rid the world of all its evils, and he decided to steal & leak Romney's tax returns, does that mean that TurboTax was an evil company? No, not in the least. Especially when they were following the laws that others thought were a good idea(data security anyone?). It does mean they hired a Left Wing Nut Job.

    10. Re:simple by gweihir · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Indeed. Loyalty is the only thing that works. DLP is basically a scam to make tons of money, but cannot prevent leakage. As long as people work with data, they can steal that data. Get used to it.

      You can to a bit of personality screening. For example if you are the NSA, you want to screen out anybody with a shred of personal ethics or honor. Then make sure you bribe these people in staying loyal too you and keep the bribes up. Sure, you only get psychos that way, but nothing else is going to work.

      If, on the other hand, your organization is actually contributing something positive, then make sure your employees have ethics and honor, believe in the cause and address grievances before they become a problem.

      Loyalty is the key, and how to get it depends on what your organization does. Nothing besides loyalty will help against anybody determined.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    11. Re:simple by TheCarp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > you may still end up with bad employees. The question of securing your data shouldn't be about
      > good or evil, or any particular moral judgment, but simply about how to make sure you're critical and
      > confidential data doesn't end up being ripped off.

      Don't let your employees access any data that you don't want them to release. Period.

      If you are really that worried, then you can't give them access. If someone has access to the data, and feels it should be released, they will release it, they will find a way, and nothing you do is going to be able to prevent it.

      Any measure you take can be defeated, short of not allowing access at all. Store the data on systems that are connected to nothing and require physical access in a secure and monitored location. Make them work under the eye of cameras. Stand over their shoulder while they work.

      Seriously, short of that, you are hosed. In the end, don't do things that people will want to release, and you solve the vast majority of the problem. The more controversial your secrets (that is, the more people who see you as evil) the more control you need to prevent it.

      So.... don't deserve a Snowden and the chances that you will have one are seriously reduced.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    12. Re:simple by Dahamma · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, the general question TFA asks about security breaches really has nothing to do with right and wrong or morality, it was simply about protection of data from insiders in any organization. What if Snowden's motivation had instead been monetary (which is much more common in security breaches than whistleblowing)? Or industrial espionage instead of government?

      Protecting data from internal leaks is a complex issue, and pretending "if you are good it won't happen" is idiotic.

    13. Re:simple by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let's say that the PRISM program managed to stop X number of terrorist attacks. As an NSA employee you might very well consider your work to be of good. Otherwise you would probably not work there. And this is probably true for many types of jobs. Good is a relative term, it depends on the viewer.

      You seem to be under the impression that most people have the job they have because they want to "do good."

      That is incorrect; the actual reason most people have a job at all is because it's damn-near-if-not impossible to survive today without some form of monetary income.

      I'm guessing the dicks at the NSA (yea, that's right, I called you all dicks. Prove me wrong.) do what they do because the paycheck is quite fat; on the other hand, I guess some people would sell their own mother to the slavers for a pack of smokes and a lighter...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    14. Re:simple by peragrin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The trick with that is what was the ratio of attacks stopped versus the number of people "looked" at?

      In the UK their is a current debate on random stop and search used by police. The noticeable point is that it is 9% effective in finding someone doing something wrong.

      So if the police stop and search 100 cars they find 9 people who are breaking the law.

      Prism is spying on tens of millions, to find a couple dozen.

      that is why it should be stopped. They should turn that kind of data mining loose not on the outside world but their own internal agencies. If the NSA data mines, searches emails, databases, etc they could get far better results.

      It would single handily merge the agencies that don't want to cooperate and produce far better results.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    15. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean like a hospital with medical records. Or what about a large genetics project with genetic and medical data. Espionage doesn't only involve signals intelligence.

    16. Re:simple by TheCarp · · Score: 2

      > Exactly, because all the most altruistically great companies had no data they would like to
      > keep from the public and their competitors.

      Who said that? The point is that, as a technological problem there is no serious solution set. You can either deny access entirely, or put onorus productivity and morale killing restrictions on access. However, anything you can think up, likely can be somehow defeated.... unless you think you can get away with asking people to strip naked upon their arrival to work and work in the nude while you stand over their shoulder watching and video recording them.... but even then someone will, given enough time and with enough motivation, find a way to trick you.

      However, not making your employees feel that they should do it goes a long way to making sure it doesn't happen. I have seen many disgruntled employees, but vanishingly few of them actually turn to releasing secrets or stealing lots of data. (of course, few companies really have much all that worth stealing, despite what they may think.... lots of people think their own pile of shit is solid gold.

      Honestly, I think most companies get this right by not spending too much time or resource on it, and instead, focusing on getting the job done. If you really don't want it to happen, your absolute best bet is to cultivate happy employees who feel the company is good to them.

      Then, just be sure if you do anything so illegal or so morally objectionable that even good, happy, otherwise loyal employees want to blow the whistle, you keep that really really quiet and away from their eyes.

      And if you really have any secrets that are so valuable someone will seriously pay money to steal them, then maybe you want to think of some amount of access control, keeping things on machines off the network, that sort of.... you know...all the normal suggestions that everybody, very smartly, ignores 99.999% of the time.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    17. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The internet libertarians found us.

    18. Re:simple by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Protecting data from internal leaks is a complex issue, and pretending "if you are good it won't happen" is idiotic.

      I think you're missing the point of those posts; we, collectively, know "do good and you have nothing to hide" is a bullshit rationale, but we find it appropriate in this circumstance considering how the corporate-owned government tells us the same thing every time they want to fuck us out of a couple more civil liberties.

      FWIW, asking a crowd like this a question like that at a time like now... a straight answer is probably the last thing most of us are thinking about responding with.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    19. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      No, TFA asks about Snowden style security breaches - and his reason for doing it has to be included, otherwise the question wouldn't include his name.

    20. Re:simple by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      Heh, I sort of posed a similar question to my kids...

      Say you've collected a group of N=10 people out of a population of P=100, and you know X=1 of them is a serial killer. How many of those people should you execute (or otherwise remove from society) to keep the rest of the population safe? Or should you let them all go to protect the innocent ones, knowing that the serial killer will go on unpunished to cause 10x more murders? How many can you execute before you're worse than the serial killer?

      Now just substitute "kill" for "steal" or "spy" or "otherwise impede the real or imagined rights of", and grab some popcorn.

      There's no order like social order. But it's a fun exercise when you realize there are different answers when you play with the ratios of X to N and P, and varying the severity of the crime/injustice.

    21. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have a lot of medical data, should that be released to the general public?

    22. Re:simple by GeoSanDiego · · Score: 1

      NO SIMPLER: No one person should have so much knowledge and access to secret data.

    23. Re:simple by davydagger · · Score: 1

      employees of buerocracy don't measure success in how well the buerocracy performs its job relative to society.

      They measure personal success in how well the buerocracy does relivant to itself, and how well they do invidually inside the buerocracy.

      I'd gander most people get into that work, because they see it as "recession proof", with retirement, good pay, and stability. They also probably recruit a good deal of ex-military who have a hard time finding work elsewhere. Given the fact the army is downsizing, it would be really easy to recruit them. No, extremely easy to recruit them, considering that its a government job, you get to move your pension over.

      They are already used to working for the government.

    24. Re:simple by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I can't quite sort out why I have been modded troll. The issue of data leaks is a big issue, even for organizations that do good (again, however you define that. I agree that Snowden was morally right to do what he did, but try to imagine a situation in which an employee nicking your data is doing it to blackmail you or sell to a competitor?

      Not every person stealing your data is some glorious warrior of freedom. Most are, well, to put it bluntly, just plain criminals, and as with any kind of theft, frequently those best placed to steal your data for nefarious ends are your own employees.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    25. Re:simple by techsoldaten · · Score: 1

      Someone could be selling insider information about farm subsidies, which is not illegal but can affect markets.

      'Leakers' are only one category of people who disclose information. It doesn't have to be illegal to be private and worth protecting.

    26. Re:simple by erroneus · · Score: 2

      I would have said it differently. "Stop breaking the fucking law!!"

    27. Re:simple by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Can you tell me how reduced? What percentage of data theft by insiders is by whistle blowers, and what percentage is by employees out to screw employers or profit by selling sensitive information?

      My gut tells me the latter far outweighs the former, but clearly you must have some notion as you say that being a good organization will seriously reduce your risk.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    28. Re:simple by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      That's not your data. There's a difference between the business's data (which is very hard to control usefully) and their customers' data, which by law must be very strictly access-controlled.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    29. Re:simple by cold+fjord · · Score: 2

      Simple. Do good, make people working for you feel they're doing something good for the world.

      There have been many different conceptions of what constitute "good."

      Many people thought that fascism was "good" for Weimar Germany, and some believe it today, and not just for Germany.
      Many people thought that Soviet Communism was "good" for the people of the Soviet Union and the world. Some still think that today.
      Many people think that living under the strict rules of Sharia is "good," democracy is a decadent evil, and imposing Sharia on others is their obligation.
      Many people think that Snowden is doing good, no matter what the consequences turn out to be.
      The people at the NSA probably believe* that they are doing good by protecting the US and its allies from another Pearl Harbor or 9/11.

      The infamous spy Kim Philby probably thought that he was doing the world a service by being a Communist spy so that the benefits of Communism would advance. Vidkun Quisling probably felt that he was working for the future of Norway when he betrayed his country to the German fascists.

      "Do good" isn't really an adequate prescription unless you specify the value system.

      * Just guessing, I have no actual experience there.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    30. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's say that the PRISM program managed to stop X number of terrorist attacks.

      Yeah, and let's also assume X monkeys can fly out of my butt. If you start with such an implausible supposition, it's no wonder you reach such farfetched conclusions.

    31. Re:simple by darkmeridian · · Score: 1, Troll

      This is a very naive and unrealistic worldview. You cannot run any sort of organization if everyone gets a right to veto. Keep in mind that workers with ministerial duties such as secretaries and janitors have access to secure zones and informations. Thus, loyalty will definitely not work because not everyone in an organization of any sort can be loyal, especially when there are third parties paying millions to get this information.

      In a perfect world, the CIA, NSA, and other guys don't need to keep secrets. But they do. Your solution is the honor system? LOL. Anyway, Edward Snowden swore a vow that he intended to break. He has no honor or personal ethics. Note that in 2009, Edward Snowden was perfectly fine with government espionage and wiretapping, and excoriated the NY Times and Wikileaks for divulging that information.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    32. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing the dicks at the NSA (yea, that's right, I called you all dicks.

      Depend on the length, hardness and effect: I suspect many of them would qualify up to the level of pricks.

    33. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even that isn't guaranteed.

      The person may have an eidetic memory. Anything they see can be taken out.

    34. Re:simple by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      There are still merely-self-interested insiders: It's practically a tradition for Mr. Sleazy McSales to abscond with all the customer data when he accepts a position with the competition, and his engineering counterparts to lift design docs and the like for the same purpose.

      IMO, lifting contact info is just not a big deal, in much the same way that bringing your Rolodex with you has been the norm for decades. If your business has such poor customer loyalty that the mere knowledge of your customer list puts it in jeopardy, then your business should die to make room for more worthy competitors.

      As for lifting engineering designs, if your competition does much of anything with those designs, they run the risk of running afoul of the law, and can get into serious trouble for it. That's why when Pepsi was offered Coca-Cola's trade-secret formulas, they reported the leaker to their competitor.

      This is not to say that there isn't very short-term usefulness to keeping secrets about products that have not yet been released, but if you're really concerned about that, it is an easily solved problem: give all your employees a 12-month paid do-not-compete clause, in which they aren't allowed to work for your competition for a period of time, but you pay them as though they were still working for you. This eliminates that risk almost entirely, while still being fair to the workers.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    35. Re:simple by grantspassalan · · Score: 1

      Yes, well, perhaps in La-la Land. Here, in reality, no matter how good your organization may be (for whatever definition of "good" you choose to use), you may still end up with bad employees. The question of securing your data shouldn't be about good or evil, or any particular moral judgment, but simply about how to make sure you're critical and confidential data doesn't end up being ripped off.

      I do not know why you were modded down, but in the end it IS a question of good and evil as well, as it is a question of trust or distrust. Every employer ultimately has to have some people they are willing to trust with the crown jewels of the business. Someone, somewhere does have access to the secret recipe of Coke. When an otherwise reliable and trustworthy employee is confronted with the unmistakable fact that the employer is doing wrong or illegal things, such an employee must choose between being loyal to their employer, to their own conscience or society as a whole. Another factor that comes into this equation is where the basic loyalty of the trusted employee lies. Paul Revere was a traitor to the English king, but a hero to the American revolutionaries. Edward Snowden is considered to be a traitor to the American government, but many consider him a hero to the American people. King George was the government in Paul Revere's day. Snowdon started a worldwide debate on how far a democratic government should go in the nasty business of espionage and surveillance. Nobody, especially people with power, such as those in government like to have their evil deeds exposed. Such people will always find a way to excuse their misdeeds.

      --
      A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
    36. Re:simple by stanlyb · · Score: 1

      You mean, DO NOT DO EVIL?

    37. Re:simple by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm guessing the dicks at the NSA (yea, that's right, I called you all dicks. Prove me wrong.)

      Come on man, I've gone through your email, we have a lot of the same hobbies, we could be friends.

      You could invite me, or I can just show up and we can go shooting. I already know the time and place. I'll pick up some subs at Blimpie's on the way over, that cool?

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    38. Re:simple by stanlyb · · Score: 1

      But, but, Magna Carta says that the police CAN NOT stop you without a reason!!!

    39. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      nope -- most people who work for the NSA would probably make more money as web developers or whatever the current make-money-fast job role is. Most of them honestly believe that they are doing something worth doing beyond just money.

      hard for you to believe, I guess. maybe you should thank them?

      my problem with this is that they may think they are doing good, but are they really?

    40. Re:simple by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      The usual over-sensationalistic headline says that, but if you actual READ the details (it's not hard, most of it is right up there at the top of the page!) it says:

      "when it comes to protecting a business's data, organizations more often focus on threats from the outside. But when a trusted employee or contractor uses privileged access to take company data, the aftermath can be as catastrophic to the business or organization as an outside attack ... What do you think the best way is to lock down a system against malicious insiders?"

    41. Re:simple by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      FWIW, asking a crowd like this a question like that at a time like now... a straight answer is probably the last thing most of us are thinking about responding with.

      And, I suppose in the end that's why TFA asked it... like the vast majority of the media (even many of the ones actually leaking Snowden's information) they really aren't all that interested in the answers, just making money off of of the publications...

    42. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a very naive view. The folks at the NSA generally believe they are doing the "right thing", otherwise they wouldn't be employed there. It happens that their concept of right may differ from yours, but generally anybody who is in it just for the cash would be weeded out pretty early. It's similar to what Chomsky discussed in his well known "Manufacturing Consent" book. (see also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG24vg8js4o)

      It also so happens that many of the folks who go into the NSA already come from monied families (in particular, monied families with a history of service.)

    43. Re:simple by grantspassalan · · Score: 2

      NO SIMPLER: No one person should have so much knowledge and access to secret data.

      In order to be useful data, SOMEONE must have access to it. If that person is not trustworthy, honest and reliable, that data will fly the coop and no technological measures will ever prevent that. If the employer is doing something immoral or illegal, a trustworthy, honest and reliable person WILL have a problem and MUST report this to someone who is in the position to do something about it.

      --
      A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
    44. Re:simple by Timmy+D+Programmer · · Score: 1

      Not simple, no matter what the cause or job there will always be someone who sees it differently, even if it's a false perception.

      --


      (If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
    45. Re: simple by joe+user+jr · · Score: 1

      I appreciate you're taking the view that it's a purely technical question, but moral questions are rarely far away from security concerns (why do you need the security?) and TFA acknowledges this by raising the moral issue directly:

      Sometimes, the malicious insider isn’t so malicious. This is the argument many are making in Snowden’s situation these days

      TFA doesn't resolve it directly, though. It goes on to liken Snowden to Terry Childs and then Childs to Jason Cornish.

      This comes off as a weak attempt to tar Snowden with the moral dubiety surrounding Cornish's spiteful data deletion spree. (More charitably, perhaps it's just a clumsy effort to indicate a subjective factor in such moral arguments, or perhaps the author is just rambling.)

      At any rate, having mentioned the argument it doesn't answer it, apart from to say this point of view (the view that there are cases where people have pretty good moral reasons for breaching security) "isn't new."

      The Slashdot story itself can be read as to imputing malice to Snowden (right at the end: "malicious insider") and indicating that the consequences of his leaks are "catastrophic" for the NSA. "Massively disruptive" would be a value-neutral way of putting it; whether or not it's catastrophic is going to depend on what views you have about the activities and goals of the NSA.

      The technical question is an interesting one, sure, but don't expect people to ignore the moral dimension, especially when it's presented in such sloppy fashion.

      --
      .sigs: Just Say No!
    46. Re:simple by Grishnakh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The people working for the Stasi thought they were doing the "right thing" too.

    47. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Protecting data from internal leaks is a complex issue, and pretending "if you are good it won't happen" is idiotic.

      The question was about Snowden-style leak. eg: leaking for the purpose or reporting crimes. In that case it is about morality. If that morality element was not relevant then the expression Snowden-style would not have been used in the question.

      Just like the OP, you are equally bigoted. Or very gullible. Or a NSA shil. Or all of the above.

    48. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, I do not see the machine gun nests set up around the American border with the intent to KEEP PEOPLE IN
      Until that happens, I have little cause to believe your NSA=Stasi story

    49. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... shouldn't be about good or evil, or any particular moral judgment ...

      That's saying the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" meme is wrong. While governments certainly make a lot of laws restricting the use and availability of guns, it really does take someone pressing the trigger. Until you have a way to eliminate revenge, adventure, inequality and greed, there will always be a reason to pick up a gun. Similarly if you don't want people hearing the truth, don't pay intelligence employees to commit crimes. When there are secret departments using secret laws sanctioned by secret courts, the lack of perspective is immense. Of course those intelligence employees will think "the ends justify the meanness".

    50. Re:simple by icebike · · Score: 1

      Let's say that the PRISM program managed to stop X number of terrorist attacks. As an NSA employee you might very well consider your work to be of good.

      More than likely, there are a good number of them second guessing their career choices right now, knowing that what they have been doing is illegal.

      Since the cat is now well and truly out of the bag as far as methods, let's have the NSA offer some proof of this "Stopped X Number of Terrorist Attacks" claim before they start hiding behind it. And let's see the proof that they did it all within the law. (After all, if we can't go outside the law to question a terrorist AFTER the fact, why should it be legal to open their mail BEFORE the fact)?

      Its easy to make a claim of protecting the country, and then clam up when asked for specifics on the grounds of protecting assets, etc. But that ship has sailed. The means and methods are now out there for all to see.

      What I've seen is poor delusional fools wishing on the internet that they could go on a jihad and being offered the tools by an FBI sting operation. But the thing is the idiots would never have carried through on their idle boasting threats had not some FBI plant offered them the means.

      In the mean time, when the Russians HAND us some real terrorist wannabes, the FBI sends some naive junior grade agent to interview them and they come away with nothing, only to have them blow up the Boston Marathon. Where was NSA's vaunted capabilities then?

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    51. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your ignorance is as astounding as your spelling skills, (i.e. bureaucracy)

      So, I _was_ a bureaucrat, I worked at two agencies over 8 years (transportation and environment), and my primary goals were to gather data (from numerous 'legacy' systems as well as national data like ERDAS and aerial images) and present it in a visual format that made it easy to see complex information and support good decision making.

      While the work was relatively recession proof, it was also horribly low paying, inconsistently managed and prone to having 'consultants' swoop in and attempt to swallow up any available budget.

      What I got out of the relationship was access to fairly advanced tools, plenty of training and an opportunity to use government resources to bring about some good in the world (if you believe that efficient transportation and re-mediated toxic waste sites are a good thing)

      In odd contrast to your depiction above, I found the highest percentage of ex-military in the communications business, after I abandoned gov't work for some well-paying consulting gigs.

    52. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aside from the physical security of not allowing some schmuck to use a USB device on a secure system...

      I think that it would be very important to mark all data with some certificate, which could determine it's source. I believe that most of Snowden's info is self-generated and that would become apparent if a certificate authority of some sort was used

    53. Re:simple by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      NSA shill? Hah. Seriously? I'm sure the NSA has better things to do than troll slashdot. I'm not any happier about what the government has been doing behind people's backs than anyone else here. I just don't think that's the point of the post at all (since if it was, it's a fairly pointless post and the submitter's are usually pretty good). Reading TFP confirms that.

      And bigoted... I do not think that word means what you think it means...

      Anyway, you must be new to slashdot. The sensationalistic title rarely matches the content of the submission. Pretty much like most articles in the media these days...

    54. Re:simple by davydagger · · Score: 4, Interesting

      and heaven knows what else they are looking for besides terrorists.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Index

      Read this, Subversives: the FBI's war on student radicals
      http://www.amazon.com/Subversives-Student-Radicals-Reagans-Power/dp/0374257000

      Based on de-classified FBI memos, it describes how th FBI kept security and reserve lists of political enemies, that could be detained at a moments notice.

      Its a clear example on how we got damn close to having our own "night of long knives".

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_long_knives

    55. Re: simple by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      The technical question is an interesting one, sure, but don't expect people to ignore the moral dimension, especially when it's presented in such sloppy fashion.

      Agreed - but then I assume you would therefore agree that the OP's post entitled "simple" and the replies that it's purely about "good and evil" is silly. The issue is most not definitely not simple nor black and white.

    56. Re:simple by TheCarp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sure my gut tells me the same; but that doesn't mean I think much can be done about it in most situations. The simple fact is you need your employees to do their job, if your information is so valuable to your business, then its even more likely that impeding them getting it is impeding your business.

      Security measures are best seen as insurance since they can never pay off in the positive, they can only cost, and hopefully, less than the alternative....and that cost isn't just the cost of doing them once, but the cost of keeping them up every single day and the entire effect of that.

      I seriously think a person trying to solve this problem is, most likely, trying to solve the wrong problem, unless perhaps, he is a criminal, or actually has data that is worth more to a criminal than the HR database of names, SSN, addresses, salaries etc.... which is unlikely for anyone asking slashdot.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    57. Re:simple by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Because securing employee social security numbers and bank account numbers is an evil nefarious act, and we should hope some brave freedom fighter comes along and liberates said information and sells it to such white knights as the Russian mob.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    58. Re:simple by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Let's say that the PRISM program managed to stop X number of terrorist attacks.

      Yeah, and let's also assume X monkeys can fly out of my butt. If you start with such an implausible supposition, it's no wonder you reach such farfetched conclusions.

      Well, that's perfectly plausible if you first assume that your monkeys are frictionless spheres...

    59. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're right that a lot of us have a tendency to overstate the type of government and society we live in today. We aren't in gulags and such but at what point are we allowed to raise the alarm? Is it paranoia or alarmist to point out that we've built the foundations for an oppressive and perhaps totalitarian society and that we've been on a slippery slope of manufactured and/or exaggerated crises in which the basic foundations of free and democratic society have been slowly whittled away piece by piece? Do we have to wait for the machinegun nests and the gulags to actually appear before we raise the alarm and do something?

    60. Re:simple by sg_oneill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The magna carta is a wonderful document. More important perhaps in the history of laws than even the US constitution as a statement of rights, simply because the magna carta was the *first*.

      But the rights it outlays are fairly simple, and rather indicitive of its times.

      [quote]

                      1. FIRST, We have granted to God, and by this our present Charter have confirmed, for Us and our Heirs for ever, that the Church of England shall be free, and shall have all her whole Rights and Liberties inviolable. We have granted also, and given to all the Freemen of our Realm, for Us and our Heirs for ever, these Liberties under-written, to have and to hold to them and their Heirs, of Us and our Heirs for ever.
                      9. THE City of London shall have all the old Liberties and Customs which it hath been used to have. Moreover We will and grant, that all other Cities, Boroughs, Towns, and the Barons of the Five Ports, as with all other Ports, shall have all their Liberties and free Customs.
                      29. NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right.[45]
      [/quote]

      Then theres a bunch of other ones like the king has to stop taking hostages ( a surprisingly common event in medieval europe ) , mercenaries have to gtfo of england, "all evil customs connected with forests were to be abolished" and other assorted medieval jurist things.

      But in terms of stop and search, AFAIK your rights are preserved only as far as a right to a fair trial, I'm afraid.

      Its an old document, more or less a first attempt at codifying limits on executive power.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    61. Re:simple by Grishnakh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The intent of the Stasi was to look for any kind of "traitors" or subversives, not just people trying to escape; the NSA's mission was the same: spy on the populace.

      If the USA was right next door to a country that was a much better place to live, and accepted any escapees with open arms, and enough people started emigrating there that it seriously affected the economy, then the US would certainly ban emigration. It doesn't have to because it has no reason to at this point; there aren't a lot of places that are significantly better, none of them are nearby, and those that are aren't highly friendly to immigrants unless they have valuable skills or a lot of money in the bank, plus for the moment the employment situation for those people with valuable skills is still pretty decent here. When the economy crashes even harder in the next few years, and if any countries start courting our tech workers (causing a "brain drain"), you can bet your ass that emigration out of the US will be forbidden.

    62. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      "You know I almost went to work for the NSA, then they found out my parents are married."

    63. Re: simple by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      In some cases, strong encryption, source-tracking, and certificates will make matters *worse* by making them non-repudiatable. Right now, the NSA can judiciouscy play its "he's making *that* up" (or exaggerating) card, and might occasionally get away with it & be believed if they don't try it too often. If Snowden had not only decrypted docs (he *was* a trusted insider, after all), but ALSO had digital signatures attesting to their authenticity, the NSA would be in even *deeper* shit.

    64. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Need to Know.

      Both Snowden and Pvt. Manning had access to documents and information that they didn't need to know to do their jobs. It is always a mistake in a Security-intensive setting to make information available to people who can do their job without it. This is why I wonder if Pvt. Manning wasn't set up to take the blame while the information/documents was released. The same holds true of Snowden but, since he had a security clearance of some sort, to a lesser degree.

    65. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Please consider the following. Also, I ask that you consider that I say this without judgement or condemnation or placing fault. When I say integrity, I mean true to agreement or true to word. We all miss the mark on this a little or a lot. It doesn't matter in itself. It only matters for how big a thing you're up to. So what I have to say is just my view of the facts.

      What you're up to is risk management, not shield of invulnerability. You can't build one.

      In the same way that social engineering is usually more efficient than brute force hacking, organizational culture and integrity are more efficient at preventing leaks than technical measures. It's especially true when the workforce consists of IT experts.

      When you tell the people you hire, that they're going to do thing A, but instead ask them to do thing B (without first asking for their agreement), you've lost your integrity. From which, it follows that people will leave, undermine you, perform poorly or, if thing B is illegal, blow the whistle. It's a law, just like the laws of physics. That's just how people work. When an organization operates out of integrity, it'll pay a cost and lose some ability to perform the mission. The law of large numbers just guarantees that these things will become visible sooner in big organizations.

      In reality, you don't just tell people that they're signing up for one thing, you ask them to agree to thousands or millions of things, most of which are unstated (wear clothes to work, don't sleep on the job, etc.). Often, there's disconnects and gaps in understanding. Employer says, "we offer flexible hours." If the employee sees this as something different than employer, one or both parties may be upset about the disconnect. In reality, it was either a lack of communication or deceit or self-deceit or some of the above.

      The NSA's mission is to spy on foreign signals and enable the U.S. government to network securely. Spying on Americans is not part of the mission. Ed Snowden sees the NSA spying on Americans. His bosses don't, or they believe their mission now means something different than it used to. Either way, it's their job to continue to communicate the mission and the expectations to the employees and to the public whom they serve. This didn't happen, so Ed Snowden closed the gap by telling us what was left unstated. (By the way, it's also our job to close the gap. We usually don't do it.)

      If you want to do your best to prevent this problem (and, incidentally, make an enormous contribution to team performance), make it part of your job every day to close the gap. Missions change. Teams Change. Life evolves. If you focus on forcing compliance, you're going to alienate your teammates. Forcing is what you resort to when you lack power and it goes against the unstated agreement you made to treat your team mates as valuable, amazing human beings (instead of, say, machines.)

      Anyhow, people who are all on-board for the same mission and satisfied in how they're accomplishing it aren't going to go sabotaging the organization. Even dissatisfied people don't do sabotage if they can move on to something else that does satisfy them.

      The requirement here is leadership. It takes something to be a leader. And, anyone can do it. Good luck.

    66. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to be under the impression that companies are only in existence for monetary gain. If companies cared about what they were doing they would probably have much better employees. The food companies that genetically modify plants to be healthier rather than pesticide resistant; the property management companies that care for their tenants well-being and safety instead of trying to evict people for minor issues and/or keeping their deposits; the chip truck that uses vegetable gravy over meat. These are all examples of places I would expect to have much different policies on data leaking because in a few of these there might be nothing to leak.

      It's definitely a cultural thing combined with certain types of personalities and the way our society is structured has allowed them to flourish beyond anyone's imagination. Greed and power are becoming some pretty big problems right now, just look at the corruption in politics if you need an example. Who on earth are our role models if only 1-2 politicians per country aren't scum? Pro-athletes that partake in hazing, womanising (or the reverse for the women out there), and do drugs are actually better role models than a few of the politicians we have here in Canada. Dark days.

    67. Re:simple by jrumney · · Score: 2

      Note also that all these rights apply only to "Freemen". Common serfs were granted no rights by the Magna Carta.

    68. Re:simple by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Airport security is actually a pretty good parallel; you establish a culture that security is important, you harass the people that can be harassed with minimal retribution, and you give people badges that get them around the security to do real work. You also use a lot of cameras to reinforce that culture of someone is watching.

      It is reasonably effective at results, although it is completely ineffective in terms of cost/benefit.

      Information compartmentalization should limit what someone can do TO you, but it also severely limits what they can do FOR you.

    69. Re:simple by bzipitidoo · · Score: 1

      "Best way?" That's a loaded question. It assumes that it's a given that it's possible to lock down data and keep insiders from exposing it. It's very much like the "problem" that DRM advocates think they can solve with DRM. Measures such as removing USB ports and CD burners, locking the computer in a closet, stopping and frisking all employees at the exit to make sure they aren't carrying out any flash drives, micro SD cards, CDs, printouts and the like are much like airport security, that is, hugely expensive and almost completely ineffective. Suppose the employees doing the frisking decide to sneak something out? The one I really love is how people are fired. The bad news is broken suddenly, with security people abruptly showing up and ordering them to remove their hands from the keyboard. They get a few minutes to clean out their desk, under supervision, and are escorted off the premises. The whole process reeks of stupid paranoia and extreme hostility. It's as if an employee had no idea of their standing, no idea they were in trouble, and couldn't have prepared a few nasty surprises if they'd a mind to do so. Then, just to make extra sure, there are all these crazy laws which mandate extremely harsh penalties for any sort of breach that involves computers.

      Like a crime, a security breach requires 3 things: means, motive, and opportunity. Insiders by definition already have means and opportunity. You are not an insider if you don't have means and opportunity. All that's missing is motive. When you assert that a security breach has nothing to do with morality, you could not be more wrong. Morality can generate powerful motives. So can money and sex. The only way to stop insiders from leaking sensitive information is to address their grievances. The first blindingly obvious thing to do is not play the cheap employment games that are so much in vogue currently. If employees are being treated poorly, by being hired as contractors so they can be paid less, and not given health insurance, and be fired instantly for any or no reason at all, do you think they're so stupid they won't understand that? If they're working under a tyrannical and sadistic boss who enjoys making underlings sweat and squirm, do something about it, like demote the boss. Learn people's grievances by, you know, talking to them, not spying on them. If someone in the organization is doing something illegal or immoral, don't let it go on. Organizations ignore this human facet at the peril of their secrets. They think they can commit heinous crimes, treat people like replaceable cogs, then tar anyone who blows the whistle as disloyal or even traitorous, and the rest of us will buy that. Of course there will always be a few whose grievances are unreasonable and unresolvable, and a few spies, but most whistleblowers are neither. Address the issues, and there won't be anything to blow the whistle about. Will solve 99% of the leaks right there.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    70. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It also so happens that many of the folks who go into the NSA already come from monied families (in particular, monied families with a history of service.)

      You're so full of shit it is comical.

      Here's a revised version of your cronyism bullshit which is MUCH closer to the truth :

      Many of the folks who go into the NSA already come from monied families (in particular, monied families with a history of COMPLICITY WITH THE MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.

    71. Re:simple by readingaccount · · Score: 1

      Stop launching Hellfires on babies

      It really bugs me when people cannot state something without hyperbole. The US isn't deliberately targeting babies in their drone strikes (unless of course someone is working under the impression that killing babies in the Middle East reduces the number of potential terrorists in the future, but that's probably a bit far fetched).

      I don't agree with drone strikes in general, but then again, I know absolutely nothing about the intel and strategic thought that goes into picking targets for strikes. I'd like to think at least some of them are valid targets - the US has a reputation for trying to avoid civilian casualty PRECISELY because it makes them look bad. And yet it seems that nothing they do can make people happy.*

      *Well... short of not attacking at all, which would make them seem impotent and week to their enemies, and hence bring out a different set of complainers. Life a bitch when it comes to running a country it seems.

    72. Re:simple by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      And with all the arcane and obscure laws on file, pretty much everyone can be found breaking one or two of such laws at any time. That they find "only" 9% breaking the law, just means they should train their officers better.

    73. Re: simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now substitute "steal" or "spy" for "spy on in a way that they will probably never know about and will not interfere or stop them doing anything they care about" and I'd say... all of them.

    74. Re:simple by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Don't let your employees access any data that you don't want them to release. Period.

      If no-one can access it, your sensitive data becomes useless.

    75. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NSA used to be something else during the Cold War.. The situation is like that copyright thingy in the Internets: the laws and the attitudes related to those have not kept up with the technological progress. Similarly the threat of terrorism have completely surprised the fat cat politicians, swimming at their luxury spas. The legislative environment have simply not kept up with the "God Fearing" leaders wishes to protect their children. And legislative environment does not consist of only written law and the case-law, but also of the public opinion, moral environment and other soft law issues. For cunt..I mean fucks sake, forgive me, the soft law arguments where summoned up in the US first. The concept "soft law" comes from you people, I believe.
        Reforming such a thing requires PR work, such like what was done during the Cold War. Absolute secrecy does not work in such a situation. Instead, a democratic process should be used.

      To the subject: why use open systems, without a capability based access and encryption at all levels? It's the same as fitting a card board door on a house in a rough neighborhood. Eventually somebody touches it. The cost savings are simply not worth it.

    76. Re:simple by ATMAvatar · · Score: 1

      You seem to be under the impression that most people have the job they have because they want to "do good."

      Aye. We have a word for people who work a job to "do good". We call them "volunteers". When it comes to paid employment, "doing good" is a perk, but like any other perk, it can be happily eliminated if compensated for in another fashion (more money works well).

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    77. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet it seems that nothing they do can make people happy.*

      *Well... short of not attacking at all, which would make them seem impotent and week to their enemies, and hence bring out a different set of complainers.

      The notion that anyone in Afghanistan or Iraq or anywhere else in the world where the US
      is conducting "adventures" is even remotely the "enemy" of the US is proof positive that
      you are a mindless turd.

      Seriously, consider killing yourself, you would thereby improve the world in a way
      which is far in excess of anything else you will ever accomplish in your miserable piece
      of shit life.

    78. Re:simple by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Communism and fascism each offered members a vision of saints, martyrs, a structure to climb and a vision of a better world.
      ie you are born into it or work your way up, cult like, a secret society, uniforms, rank, structure, real power, wealth.
      You also had people in/around the time of war making very personal choices. If you sell out or are a true believer life would have been interesting or a bit better or old rivals could be settled with.
      ie your list is surrounded by death, riots, small wars, hunger, the fog of war in the 1920-40's or faith.
      A personal experience of a massacre, been almost killed, been told to kill, been drunk on power, been free to enjoy a lifestyle during and after a war.
      Snowden just went to the press.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    79. Re:simple by dissy · · Score: 1

      I sort of posed a similar question to my kids....

      I'm curious what your kids answers were, if you don't mind (and they don't mind you) sharing.

      I know what my own answer must be, but more and more feel like a minority opinion, and less and less like a moral absolute I still view the matter as.

      Seeing as you've taken the time to geekcode PS+ PE, I must first assume your reply will not be propaganda, and second assume that even if it is, you still win.
      Either way I'm still curious of their initial reactions

    80. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WOW! Check the mod on this entire thread. Look like the NSA has some mod points today.

    81. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (posting anon for obvious reasons)

      Snowden might be a bad employee in some people's eyes (I'll let people judge that by themselves), but he's definitely not a bad person.

      He did the right thing. (And I wish I did the same at my previous job when I had the chance)

    82. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When the economy crashes even harder in the next few years, and if any countries start courting our tech workers (causing a "brain drain"), you can bet your ass that emigration out of the US will be forbidden.

      They don't need to forbid emigration. The laws already require US citizens that have emigrated to file and pay US taxes on money earned when working abroad.

    83. Re:simple by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I said nothing about "veto", that would be stupid. I said everybody needs to have their grievances addressed. That does mean if they have an issue with the situation or with changes, somebody that can actually decide things needs to work on a solution with them that is acceptable for them. Yes, that is expensive, and yes, that means taking these people seriously, but it is the only thing that works. And yes, it can mean a "golden parachute" if somebody wants to something the organization cannot give him. Still important to make the person feel taken seriously. Loyalty can continue beyond the end of employment.

      For secretaries and janitors, loyalty is the only thing that works. Nothing else will work and if you cannot create that loyalty, you _will_ have leaks. On the other hand, if you treat secretaries and janitors well and make sure they feel appreciated, they _will_ be very, very loyal, far more so than most managers. There can still be the occasional psycho among the secretaries and janitors, but spotting them is one of the tasks that are non-optional if you want to prevent leaks.

      It is however very naive to believe the data-leakage problem can be addressed by technology or processes. It cannot. A bit of research into past leakage cases (those that have been published) shows that very clearly.

      Side note: You seem to confuse honor and loyalty. These are separate things and one can exist without the other.

      I also disagree on Snowden. He clearly has honor and integrity, but no loyalty anymore to his former employer. His problem is that it took him a while to understand what kind of organization he was working for. Then he realized that overriding concerns applied and did the right thing. In my proposed NSA employee screening, he would never have made it.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    84. Re:simple by bwcbwc · · Score: 1

      There ARE 2 prongs to this though. Don't behave unethically/unconstitutionally and you don't generate the "Snowden-style" leaks. You only have to deal with the normal disgruntled types who feel screwed over and the ones who have their own ethical issues and somehow rationalize harming the company for their own benefit. Those are a bit easier to detect during the hiring process than the Snowdens who are motivated by their own ethical standards.

      The irony of corporate ethics training coming from companies who continually skirt or cross the bounds of legality is not lost on a lot of their employees. More companies should take a look at the whistleblower risks of such shortcut decisions.

      --
      We are the 198 proof..
    85. Re:simple by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      They're 8 an 10, and their replies were something along the lines of... "WTF Dad, geez you're morbid"

      So I fail as a nerd dad, I guess. Need to show them more reruns of ST:TNG so they have some framework for tackling these kinds of things.

    86. Re: simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently your understanding of history is lacking. The Stasi analog is valid. Stasi had a massive surveillance apparatus looking for subversive people, friends spying on friends, neighbors on neighbors. NSA is just less small-village feel and more centralized.

    87. Re:simple by Tastecicles · · Score: 1

      actually the noticeable point is that 9% of "random" stop and searches in the London Metropolitan area resulted in arrests.
      Of those, taking overall statistics from the Home Office, 10% are charged, and of those, 60% are convicted.

      So out of every 1,000 people searched, just 6 are convicted.

      *I used "random" in parentheses because observations by people specifically out looking what the police are doing indicated that 85% of the individuals stopped and searched are from ethnic minorities, such as black West Indian, West African, East Indian, Polish, Pakistani and - get this - Golders Jews. I myself have seen random stop and searches in Golders Green, North London, which is a predominantly hasidic Jewish community, performed by white Western European (most likely British descent) police officers on hasidic Jewish civilians over transient anybody else. Don't ever try telling me that profiling doesn't happen, because it DOES.

      --
      Operation Guillotine is in effect.
    88. Re:simple by Tastecicles · · Score: 1

      depends, are you harvesting organs?

      --
      Operation Guillotine is in effect.
    89. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Say you've collected a group of N=10 people out of a population of P=100, and you know X=1 of them is a serial killer. How many of those people should you execute (or otherwise remove from society) to keep the rest of the population safe?

      Another important question is: What is the amount of resources used vs the number of people saved?
      Say you have a collection of problems, which can be evaluated using N=the number of deaths caused by the problem, P=The cost of tackling the problem, and X=the actual percentage of the deaths that can prevented by spending that money. Of course you look for problems with the highest ratio of N*X/P.

      As X increases P usually increases exponentially. Do the math and you will see that it is a bare-faced lie that prism is there to stop terrorists. The number of people killed in the US in the last 10 years by terrorist attacks is less than 100. The cost of the prism program is hard to estimate but I imagine the number must have around 11 digits. so the cost per person saved should have around 9 digits. No matter what (realistic) numbers you fill in it could never compare to something like single payer healthcare, where the cost (to take switzerland as an example) is around $3000 per person, P is huge and X is significant. Workplace safety regulations is another nice example, N is negligible, P is large and X can be around 80-90%. Then there is third world poverty where N is about a billion, P is tiny, and X is almost perfect.

      If you think PRISM is about stopping terrorism you are a gullible fool. It is about political control.

    90. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's say that the PRISM program managed to stop X number of terrorist attacks. As an NSA employee you might very well consider your work to be of good. Otherwise you would probably not work there.

      Yes, bullshitting yourself is an important job qualification for a lot of jobs. Failure to do so is called an "attitude problem". Which is actually what got Steve Jobs fired from the Apple board one time: any company can only afford a strictly limited number of workers with attitude problems since otherwise one starts working in conflicting directions.

    91. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The intent of the Stasi was to look for any kind of "traitors" or subversives, not just people trying to escape; the NSA's mission was the same: spy on the populace.

      If the USA was right next door to a country that was a much better place to live, and accepted any escapees with open arms...

      It's called Canada.

    92. Re:simple by secondhand_Buddah · · Score: 2

      You are 100% correct. Everything Hitler and his regime did was legal - pretty much like everything the US government is doing is legal.

      --
      Participatory Governance : The only feasible option for a real democracy, where everyone really does have a say.
    93. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, for instance, I can wreck the company and profit in the short term by leaking sensitive information, sure. There's just one catch: I can gain much more by not doing it. It's the magic of actually owning some of the company.

      Other magic is that if such a move appears particularly dickish to an outsider, it will burn a lot more bridges than the ones directly behind me. From that point on my future would be tied to sociopathic organizations who find such behaviour acceptable if not even preferable and I would absolutely hate the company of similar assholes.

    94. Re:simple by Anachragnome · · Score: 1

      "...you can bet your ass that emigration out of the US will be forbidden."

      We could all just ask Mexico for asylum.

      After all, Edward Snowden just gave us the proof we're all being oppressed (if you don't think your being oppressed, go take a soapbox down to the sidewalk outside your local City Hall and start reciting the Constitution of the United States loudly, and see how long it takes a cop to tell you to move along).

    95. Re:simple by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      So you are saying there is no correlation between doing evil on a massive scale and people leaking details of your activities to the world? I think you are wrong.

      The best way to get your employees not to stab you in the back is to not do things that are offensive to them because there will always be a few who will do what their convictions tell them regardless of consequences.

    96. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, well, perhaps in La-la Land. Here, in reality, no matter how good your organization may be (for whatever definition of "good" you choose to use), you may still end up with bad employees. The question of securing your data shouldn't be about good or evil, or any particular moral judgment, but simply about how to make sure you're critical and confidential data doesn't end up being ripped off.

      La-la Land is believing you can pry into the lives of hundreds of millions of people without one or two of them having the courage and opportunity to effectively oppose you. There seem to be a few state agencies living in La-la land right now.

    97. Re:simple by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      I don't believe that most people choose their job based on "doing good", but not doing things that are repugnant to your person is always a consideration.

      When I was in university the DRA ( UK Defence Research Agency ) were actively trying to recruit people and a lot of students applied. I avoided them because ultimately they were trying to find better ways to kill people. Not all of us will sell out everything we know to be right just to buy a bigger TV or a bigger car.

    98. Re:simple by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      (yea, that's right, I called you all dicks. Prove me wrong.)

      I do agree. NSA staff, GCHQ staff, and anyone else who does what they know to be wrong and try to justify it by claiming that their paymasters are morally culpable for their actions are all dicks. And cowards who hide in shadows. And leeches on an overburdened state.

    99. Re:simple by 1s44c · · Score: 2

      Sorry, I do not see the machine gun nests set up around the American border with the intent to KEEP PEOPLE IN
      Until that happens, I have little cause to believe your NSA=Stasi story

      Google for 'concentration camps in America', there are photos and videos of massive fully manned camps with fences designed to keep people in, not out. These camps are seemingly ready to be used yet empty and they are not part of the prison system.

      Also there are enough government owned weapons in the US to setup gun nests all over the place at very short notice.

    100. Re:simple by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      Although it may be true that most people do not work to "do good" they do tend to avoid work they consider manifest wickedness.

    101. Re:simple by Krneki · · Score: 1

      It is about good and evil, since there is no way to secure data from a professional IT guy who knows his job and knows better then anyone else in the world the inner working of his IT system.

      If you remove his access, you deny him to do his job.

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    102. Re: simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have a higher incarceration rate than the Soviets did with their gulags. We treat people who have done their time with extreme caution and rarely hire them. Its like branding them with a label they can't remove.

    103. Re:simple by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I do not see the machine gun nests set up around the American border with the intent to KEEP PEOPLE IN
      Until that happens, I have little cause to believe your NSA=Stasi story

      And post-WWI Germany didn't have them either. At first.

      And don't give me any crap about Godwin. Godwin isn't an excuse to dismiss repeating history.

      Besides, the Stasi weren't the people with the machine-guns nests. Those were for people whose intent was obvious.

    104. Re:simple by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      Although it may be true that most people do not work to "do good" they do tend to avoid work they consider manifest wickedness.

      I'd believe that if not for all the people working for tobacco companies.

    105. Re:simple by YoungManKlaus · · Score: 1

      Agreed, respect peoples rights, and stay within legal boundaries. It's really that simple. About every whistleblower you heard about was because companies or governments don't respect the most basic of rights of their users. Nobody gives a damn about the "grey areas", but if you blatantly abuse your customers and/or employees and/or their rights then people tend to get pissed.

      Also: to not be able to blow the whistle you need people without knowledge about anything, and people without knowledge can usually not do your bidding.

    106. Re:simple by crashcy · · Score: 1

      Most of them honestly believe that they are doing something worth doing beyond just money.

      Do you know most of the people who work for the NSA? What is the the basis of your positive assumption of the motivations of the NSA? If you're just stating your opinion as fact, I would argue that most people who pursue that type of career do so for the power. They are some of the most evil bastards on the planet.

    107. Re:simple by pla · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I do not see the machine gun nests set up around the American border

      Not looking very hard...


      with the intent to KEEP PEOPLE IN

      A fence can keep people in or out. Just a matter of which way most people want to go. When the banking system really goes down in flames in the next decade, when SS collapses from all those little "loans" we've taken against it, when the welfare state starts requiring over a 100% tax rate on those actually earning a living to sustain itself - You can bet your ass that, just like US oil pipelines today, the direction those guns face will do a 180.

    108. Re:simple by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Maybe, but that's completely unenforceable after someone's left the country. It totally assumes that that person is planning to return at some point, so it's aimed at people who, for instance, go to shitholes like Saudi Arabia or Nigeria for temporary work and will only be gone a year or three.

    109. Re:simple by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Sorry, no.
      1) Canada has the same problems with police brutality and the growing police state mentality that the US does.
      2) You can't emigrate to Canada unless you have particular skills they want, and have a job offer from a Canadian firm (that has tried to hire a Canadian for the job and failed), OR you have $300K ready to deposit into a Canadian bank account.

    110. Re:simple by jafiwam · · Score: 1

      Simple. Do good, make people working for you feel they're doing something good for the world.

      That, and pay them decently. And don't fuck me with health care, and don't lie to me about the "automatic bonus" when it's obvious the accountant is re-arranging the books to avoid paying bonuses. "Doing good" only matters if I am not getting kicked out of my house because my SO lost her job.

      Company culture only goes half way, company culture with good pay is the best way to avoid security breeches by employees.

    111. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are watching you watch him. Because we can. Because we are dicks.

      We also know you like it when your dog humps your leg.

      NSA unsupervised supervisor #204

    112. Re:simple by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      The problem with that is that Mexico is even worse than the US, much much worse. If you think the cops in the US are bad, you haven't seen anything. Large parts of the country are mostly lawless, and under the control of violent drug cartels. Mexico is a failed state.

      If you want to move south to escape the US, and get to someplace that isn't even worse, you'll have to skip over Mexico and go someplace like Costa Rica.

    113. Re:simple by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      That's fair enough. I suspect that leaks differ in seriousness, and there are probably more than a few companies who think too highly of 'ideas' and too little of 'execution'.

      My intent was really to distinguish two classes(there are probably a few others) of leakers: your mercenary doesn't give a damn whether you are doing good or not; but also won't try anything that doesn't (at least appear, they may be unaware of how difficult selling the secrets actually will be, as with the Coke losers you link to) benefit them. Your idealist is much more resistant to material inducements(both for and against leaking); but vulnerable to disillusionment. Very distinct flavors of risk.

    114. Re:simple by LoRdTAW · · Score: 2

      Like another poster said you joined the Stasi to be shielded from it.

      One of my close friends is Russian and grew up in communist Russia until the USSR fell. One thing he was proud of was the fact that his grandfather was a colonel in the KGB. His father was a loser and his mother divorced him shortly after she gave birth. My friend an only child and his mother single would have grown up poor as shit back then. But his grandfather (mother's father) made sure she had an education, job in the government as an english translator and nice apartment in the Moscow city center, blocks from the Kremlin. That KGB position protected his family not only from government persecution but also gave them a better life.

    115. Re:simple by LoRdTAW · · Score: 1

      Think of it like this, you know your enemy does not like civilian casualties and you are part of a somewhat loose group of individuals scattered throughout the land. Your best option is to make sure you are always within a populated area and in close proximity to innocents on a daily basis. This makes it harder for your enemy to target you with a missile because of the high probability of collateral damage. Maybe you even ensure you have a group of women and children in tow just to ensure you won't be targeted, a human shield.

      If that is the case, and I am sure they are that smart, what do the strategists in the military do? Obviously they have people on the ground sniffing out these guys otherwise they wouldn't know a damn thing. The targets also know there are spies and take precautions. So I guess the hard decision has to be made to fire on these people with the hope that few of his human shields are killed.

    116. Re:simple by cellurl · · Score: 1

      I completely agree. Get buy in. Hire people who will be loyal. Don't do bad things. Plan for leaks.

      Leak the speed limit

    117. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For example if you are the NSA, you want to screen out anybody with a shred of personal ethics or honor. Then make sure you bribe these people in staying loyal too you and keep the bribes up. Sure, you only get psychos that way, but nothing else is going to work.

      I like to joke about that too, but psychos actually make HORRIBLE employees in intelligence services. They're loose cannons and habitually betray everyone not just including but especially their employers. The NSA et al. want highly ethical employees -- just ones with a (to you) strange ethic.

    118. Re:simple by readingaccount · · Score: 1

      I dunno, I'd like to think I've made enough accomplishments in life to quality it as not being shit. Plus I have a loving wife, which I consider my greatest accomplishment of them all. You know nothing about me you cum-sucking fuck.

    119. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The magna carta is a wonderful document.... Its an old document, more or less a first attempt at codifying limits on executive power.

      You do know what happened, started by John himself, following the signing?

    120. Re:simple by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      I don't believe that most people choose their job based on "doing good", but not doing things that are repugnant to your person is always a consideration.

      True that - I wouldn't work for most Fortune 500 companies as a matter of principle, risk to my fiscal security be damned.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    121. Re:simple by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Although it may be true that most people do not work to "do good" they do tend to avoid work they consider manifest wickedness.

      I'd believe that if not for all the people working for tobacco companies.

      Not everyone considers smoking tobacco to be 'manifest wickedness,' you know.

      Smokers, for example.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    122. Re:simple by richardlvance · · Score: 1

      Simple. Do good, make people working for you feel they're doing something good for the world.

      Nobody is talking about the fact that these government agencies, contractors, and individuals can easily do a silent Snowden and sell their secrets to the highest corporate bidder, giving inside access to the juicy contracts, and ways to destroy competition. The commercial aspects of the government AND CONTRACTORS seeing all eye is much worse than the governmental prosecution fears. Those on the inside have the gold and make the rules. Our President his staff, the entire useless congress and their staffs have no clue what the NSA/CIA/FBI/DHS is saying to them.... They have NO imagination and live in fear bowing to the Generals to "protect" us. Ben Franklin should have talked louder..

      --
      cursethedarkness
    123. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Long term public oversight over business and government is absolutely critical to having a free society. US and world history is full of examples of both groups doing terrible things and trying to hide them. The leaders of powerful organizations have enormous power to do harm to the world, far more so than the relatively small number of sociopaths found inside an organization that might be tempted to "betray" it. Beyond a certain point, protecting information from insiders does far more harm than good to society as a whole.

      This does not, of course, prevent people such as security consultants and legal professionals from attempting to do all kinds of things to block long term public oversight. Sociopaths in these professions, of which there are many, are very willing to ignore the long term consequences of their actions on society as a whole if they can earn a fast buck in the short term.

    124. Re:simple by steelfood · · Score: 1

      Emigration out is already highly discouraged. Did you know you have to pay capital gains taxes on all of your U.S. property after you give up your citizenship (as of 2008)?

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    125. Re:simple by steelfood · · Score: 1

      You're surprised. They've been keeping tabs on everybody who's anybody since the organization's inception. Hoover, anybody? The guy with enough power to assassinate a president and then have congress cover it up for him?

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    126. Re:simple by LurkerXXX · · Score: 1

      Joining the bad guys, to give your family a better life, does not make you one of the good guys.

    127. Re:simple by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      That's true. And in my experience, people in the former group have a tendency to quickly rise to high positions in government and business, like CEOs and congresspeople, assuming they don't get caught, so finding a way to weed these people out early would benefit everyone. :-)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    128. Re:simple by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      If anyone in the organization can frustrate the purposes of the organization by unauthorized disclosure, that would constitute a veto under any real definition of the word. You can have every system in the world to address their grievances but sometimes, there are just nuts who cannot be placated. It is naive that loyalty is the only thing that works. But then you acknowledge that by saying that you have to chase down the "occasional psycho". That kills your entire thesis; loyalty is not enough.

      That's why there are coercive laws against espionage and the like. The honor system is really just not going to work. You use data control measures in conjunction with investigations, audits, lie detector tests, legal action against leakers, etc. It's nuts to just say that you have to make everyone happy because you admitted that you cannot. How do you detect the occasional psycho and stop him or her from leaking unless you have data control systems and routine audits to detect them? Or unless you have laws to punish them to persuade them from stopping?

      TL;DR: Honor or loyalty isn't enough; you need all of the above.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    129. Re:simple by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      When you assert that a security breach has nothing to do with morality, you could not be more wrong. Morality can generate powerful motives. So can money and sex.

      Morality of the person taking the data, very possibly. But clearly I was responding to the claim that if the *organization* is moral that will simply solve the problem, which is obviously untrue in the case of an immoral (and/or greedy, etc) employee/insider.

      Sure, there are plenty of reasons that could be the fault of the organization (shady immoral/practices, poor treatment of employees, etc) but for every one of those I could also provide an example that is not (or mostly not) their fault: industrial espionage (there are people out there who would just have no problem stealing from their employer for a large payoff if they don't think they will be caught), political differences (also plenty of insiders/double agents/what have you on ALL sides who have been stealing secrets from governments and businesses for ideology as much as money), or just plain sociopathic behavior (unfortunate hiring decision, I suppose, but it happens - but watch out when trying to *justifiably* fire that person...).

      I think you drastically underestimate the number of data leaks due to just plain greed or other personal motivation vs. "whistleblowing" - I would bet the former is much more common.

    130. Re:simple by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Yes, well, perhaps in La-la Land. Here, in reality, no matter how good your organization may be (for whatever definition of "good" you choose to use), you may still end up with bad employees. The question of securing your data shouldn't be about good or evil, or any particular moral judgment, but simply about how to make sure you're critical and confidential data doesn't end up being ripped off.

      Moral judgements matter because good organizations need only worry about bad employees, while bad organizations must worry about everyone; bad employees will still backstab them for personal gain while good employees backstab them because they're villains. Unconditional loyalty belongs to La-La Land. Here, in reality, you either earn what you need or suffer the consequences. And bad organizations have a much harder time doing that, because appealing to the social contract they're themselves violating isn't effective.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    131. Re:simple by LoRdTAW · · Score: 1

      Where did it say that in my post? The point was this: People joined these agencies to benefit themselves or their families. If you put yourself in their shoes you might begin to understand.

    132. Re:simple by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      Although it may be true that most people do not work to "do good" they do tend to avoid work they consider manifest wickedness.

      I'd believe that if not for all the people working for tobacco companies.

      Not everyone considers smoking tobacco to be 'manifest wickedness,' you know.

      Smokers, for example.

      Actually, I don't know many smokers that actually DO think smoking tobacco is a Good Thing after a few years of it.

      Knowing what we know about tobacco in this day and age, anyone who can work in the industry and feel like they are doing something they can be proud of is probably a certifiable psychopath.

    133. Re:simple by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Although it may be true that most people do not work to "do good" they do tend to avoid work they consider manifest wickedness.

      I'd believe that if not for all the people working for tobacco companies.

      Not everyone considers smoking tobacco to be 'manifest wickedness,' you know.

      Smokers, for example.

      Actually, I don't know many smokers that actually DO think smoking tobacco is a Good Thing after a few years of it.

      I never said they would.

      FYI, there is quite a bit of grey area between "thinks it's the Devil Incarnate" and "thinks it's the BESTESTES THING EVAAAAAR!!!" For example, I'm not a big fan of welfare for lazy fucks and dopers, but I support it because it beats the alternative of crazy-high crime and incarceration rates.

      Knowing what we know about tobacco in this day and age, anyone who can work in the industry and feel like they are doing something they can be proud of is probably a certifiable psychopath.

      What, you don't think having a job where you know you are helping people live their lives in free liberty is something to be proud of? Are you sure you aren't the sociopath here? BTW, I've heard the exact same argument made about people who work in the firearms industry, and it's a bullshit cop-out in both situations - nothing more than a pathetic attempt by assholes with agendas to demonize and marginalize activities they choose to be against.

      For the record, I smoke (a pipe); I make the choice to do so, and I live with the consequences, and FUCK any person who believes that I should not have the right to make that call for myself.

      Fuck 'em hard.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    134. Re:simple by gweihir · · Score: 1

      If anyone in the organization can frustrate the purposes of the organization by unauthorized disclosure, that would constitute a veto under any real definition of the word. You can have every system in the world to address their grievances but sometimes, there are just nuts who cannot be placated. It is naive that loyalty is the only thing that works. But then you acknowledge that by saying that you have to chase down the "occasional psycho". That kills your entire thesis; loyalty is not enough.

      It does not. Create loyalty wherever possible. Where not possible, remove the employee. Quite obvious. Also quite obvious that you cannot just "push" loyalty on employees, it has to be a feedback loop.

      That's why there are coercive laws against espionage and the like.

      And they work? Does not seem to me like they do....

      The honor system is really just not going to work.

      You are confusing honor and loyalty. They are quite different things. Honor is something you do yourself, for yourself. Loyalty is something you do or not for others. Loyalty is always to a person or group of people. It needs to be maintained, it is two-sided, and it is very strong when done right. Creating, maintaining and monitoring loyalty is quite different from the "honor system". Unless you see that, you are bound to misunderstand everything I say.

      You use data control measures in conjunction with investigations, audits, lie detector tests, legal action against leakers, etc. It's nuts to just say that you have to make everyone happy because you admitted that you cannot.

      Oh, these measures are required to a degree, quite obviously, to raise the level of dissatisfaction somebody needs before he becomes actively disloyal. But that only serves to make growing disloyalty more obvious and being able to do something about it (re-create loyalty or remove person from organization). Also, lie detector tests _increase_ the level of leaks, because they are a sign of distrust of the employer (which is a form of disloyalty) towards the employee. Loyalty always works both ways, just as trust does. One side violates it, the other follows.

      How do you detect the occasional psycho and stop him or her from leaking unless you have data control systems and routine audits to detect them?

      That is just my point. These measures do not work. No, they really do not. Read up on past leaks and weep. Detecting a disgruntled employee or one that has other loyalty issues is a leadership task that managers are responsible for doing. Done wrong (witch-hunt style) makes it worse. Done right, it prevents leaks reliably. Of course, most managers are incompetent when it comes to actually leading people and hence the focus on technical/legal/etc. measures, that do not work.

      Or unless you have laws to punish them to persuade them from stopping?

      TL;DR: Honor or loyalty isn't enough; you need all of the above.

      I never claimed different. It is just that most people completely forget about loyalty, and without loyalty _none_ of the other approaches work. They just serve to make the level of loyalty needed somewhat lower, but they cannot replace it in any real sense. That is what most people in technical leakage prevention do not get. I have run into countless people that think technological DLP will solve the issue. It cannot.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    135. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depressing. Not just because it is real, but because I was brought up with the idea that it could never happen here. Poof. So much for childhood dreams. *sigh*

      (CAPTCHA=humanity)

    136. Re:simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, yeah; however, the title of this story is how to prevent Snowden-style security breaches... and the GP answered that nicely: Stop being a dick and ensure that your organization is acting honorably even when it is not being directly scrutinized.

      If the title of the article was, "How to prevent insider threats", your rant would have been much more appropriate.

      (lol, CAPTCHA=dissents)

    137. Re:simple by sapped · · Score: 1

      The trick with that is what was the ratio of attacks stopped versus the number of people "looked" at?

      In the UK their is a current debate on random stop and search used by police. The noticeable point is that it is 9% effective in finding someone doing something wrong.

      So if the police stop and search 100 cars they find 9 people who are breaking the law.

      Sorry, but you're wrong with those numbers. If the police stopped and searched 100 cars, and all 100 of those people were breaking the law, they find 9 people who are breaking the law.

      In reality you would have to stop 1000s of cars before you caught 9 people breaking the law.

    138. Re:simple by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Yep, we were all brought up with that idea. We thought our country was above all that, that it could never happen here.

    139. Re:simple by dissy · · Score: 1

      Fair enough, I somehow assumed a slightly higher age for the kids (no offense intended!)

      I wouldn't conciser it any sort of dad-fail myself.
      In fact if anything I'd only suggest the 4th season ep "The Drumhead" (The Debris review) - A classic conspiracy story

    140. Re:simple by Alarash · · Score: 1

      DLP is made to prevent accidental leakage. You'd be surprised how many people mistype the name of the people they want to contact (or make a mistake when the email program auto-fill the names based on the input characters). One day my company received the full bookings spreadsheet of our main competitor, because our Sales Director's first name is the same as the competition. The guy just typed it and didn't read the last name and we received all the data.

  2. Nice try NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    We won't help you cover your asses for the future. It's time to clean house.

    1. Re:Nice try NSA by crafty.munchkin · · Score: 1

      Optimist!

      --
      ... wait, what?
    2. Re:Nice try NSA by intermodal · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That was certainly an issue. If we're talking Snowden-style, the best deterrent is to actually conduct your operations within the law and within the boundaries of ethical behaviour. Snowden wouldn't have had anything to leak if the government were operating within the legitimate bounds of the constitution.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    3. Re:Nice try NSA by MozeeToby · · Score: 4, Informative

      The NSA doesn't need help, all they would have had to do is follow their own procedures and the leak would have been greatly reduced. There's no excuse for having active USB ports on a machine that is handling top secret documents. Nor is there any excuse for giving someone access to more classified documents than they need to do their jobs, a system admin needs approximately zero access to the actual contents of the actual documents.

    4. Re:Nice try NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Contrary to popular belief these leaks didn't expose anything illegal. These programs are operating within the bounds of the laws as written and voted upon by congress. People have a right to be angry with the program but they should be equally angry that their congressional representatives have voted to keep these laws in place that validate these lawful programs.

    5. Re:Nice try NSA by Gr8Apes · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Congress can make laws that are illegal - that's why we have the Supreme Court. If Congress creates laws, but they're 'secret" and no one gets to see them, and they're acted upon by other "secret" people, who supposedly report back to a congressional oversight group - but they lie.... and the courts never see any of this... I think we have what's called a dictatorship in the making.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    6. Re:Nice try NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can't legalize unconstitutional activity with legislation. Either amend it to allow what you think is necessary, or scale back your concept of necessity. There are no alternatives.

    7. Re:Nice try NSA by Moof123 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm going to fail Godwin's law off the bat here, but remember that Hitler was lawfully elected and his SS all worked within the law. The letter of the law can twisted and re-written to make torture "legal", but that does not mean that it is OK since it is legal. The fact that "enhanced interrogation", and now "enhanced observation" is legal and was known to congress should be MUCH scarier than if it came out that the NSA was breaking the law without congressional oversight.

    8. Re:Nice try NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While true, the premise of the question was how to stop/avoid it. Staying within the realms of the law (whether the laws are valid or not) is a lot more "secure" than bending or breaking them. In the private sector the Feds would call Snowden a whistle-blower, in the public sector he is a traitor. It's ridiculous.

    9. Re:Nice try NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suppose they could fill the USB ports with epoxy to disable them (otherwise they could be re-enabled), unless they actually need the USB ports for something (perhaps keyboards and mice). But how do you stop a system admin from getting access to the contents of the documents that pass through systems he admins?

    10. Re:Nice try NSA by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      These programs are operating within the bounds of the laws as written and voted upon by congress. People have a right to be angry with the program but they should be equally angry that their congressional representatives have voted to keep these laws in place that validate these lawful programs.

      as Moof123 wrote, "Hitler was lawfully elected and his SS all worked within the law." And yes we supposably vote out reps but there is basically only two parties which both vote the same on these laws. Now if we can get a sizable portion of representatives from other parties (Greens, Libertarians, etc)... though all these differences make grind govt to a halt. Oh wait, that's already happening (except for the secret stuff).

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
    11. Re:Nice try NSA by Grog6 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I lost mod points to post this, but this is the only use I've ever seen in 20+ years of internet, where Godwin did not apply.

      We are ruled by an organization akin to the Gestapo.

      There are Secret rules, secret Courts, and the Judges aren't allowed to comment, and have never ruled against the State.

      I still remember when America Didn't Torture People; everyone responsible should be hanged.

      --
      Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
    12. Re:Nice try NSA by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Actually, the person is correct that they failed Godwin's law, which really has no clear definition. I often do commit the same offense, because people refuse to understand history. Much of what we see being done today is exactly like Hitler did, Stalin and Lenin did, Mao did, etc...

      Too many people live in a delusion where they don't believe evil people can become politicians in the USA, or the UK. Media and Governments have spent lots of money, and had lots of help from the entertainment industry, convincing people that it can't happen "here".

      "Those that refuse to learn history are doomed to repeat it." is something that people just don't want to admit is true.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    13. Re:Nice try NSA by abridgedslashdotuser · · Score: 2

      ...but remember that Hitler was lawfully elected and his SS all worked within the law.

      Not really because the SS was part of the SA until 1934 and they never worked within the law because they were used to battle other parties and to kill certain people who were in their way. There was nothing legal about that.And Hitler way of getting elected was, to block everything in the Reichstag and force new elections as often as possible to get more votes and when his seizure of power started, he didn't had a majority he threatened the conservative, the national conservatives and the liberal parties to vote for the Enabling Act of 1933. Only the social democrats had the balls to vote against it while the communist and socialist party members were already on the run because they were hunted by the SA and SS and were fighting for there lives. It's not as legal as it looks even if you just zoom a little bit in on it.

    14. Re:Nice try NSA by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      Encryption? Each file could be encrypted individually or there could be encrypted volumes, either way. Need to know is the test. Using commonly available tools he does not need the contents of the files to do his job, therefore the contents should not be made available to him. As to the USB ports, the minor hassle of dealing with PS2 mice and keyboards dwarfs the risk of leaving them open. Yes fill them with epoxy, yes disable them, yes set up alerts so that all admins on the system get a message when they are re-enabled. Same if any other important security setting is changed. Same if large amounts of files are copied or moved.

    15. Re:Nice try NSA by miroku000 · · Score: 1

      You can't legalize unconstitutional activity with legislation. Either amend it to allow what you think is necessary, or scale back your concept of necessity. There are no alternatives.

      Well, that is technically true. But there are all sorts of tricks you can do. #1: Stop people from having standing to sue #2: Prohibit any evidence that would prove the violation from being admissible #3: Assert some state secrets privilege to make evidence inadmissible IANAL, so there is probably a bunch of other stuff.

    16. Re: Nice try NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear from snowdens

    17. Re:Nice try NSA by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Nope, encryption does not really work when it's a sysadmin involved. If they need to see data for their jobs, they have to be able to decrypt the data. Think along the lines of people having to handle calls and trouble shoot problems with other people getting that data.

      I worked in that sector for just shy of a decade. The only principle that works is to keep people's hands off of data. It used to be that way, and not that long ago. If you were not signed on to a project, you had no access to data on the project. Even if you were on the project, if the data did not relate to your work you had no access to that data. Computers were not networked unless they absolutely needed to be, so data was hand carted from system to system when it was needed. While not the most efficient way to work, it was much more secure.

      Since I left that sector there have been both massive expansions and massive cuts in budgets to established institutions with good practices. Long term players have been forced to furlough employees so everyone is at 4/5ths pay. Those are the people that worked with, and understood very well, good security practices. Wannabe 007s with a bit of script kiddie skillz have been hired like crazy, most of which is contracted so not accountable like direct hires.

      It is the Government's own fault that things have gone to shit. Just like I blame CEOs for cutting costs by dumping seasoned productive people in favor of temps, at the expense of their customers.

      A massive program like this won't simply get better for a whole lot of reasons. It's way too big, it's poorly managed, and a large portion of the people working in the industry are not there for the right reasons. A person being hired because they want to fuck people over, which is the profile they frequently seek, means that the person really does not care who they fuck over. Luckily for the Government most of the people that fit that profile are generally not as intelligent as they think they are. (Please don't mistake those comments for the majority of people working in the industry who are good Americans and not there to fuck people over, but to do a job. Because they won't fuck people over, well.. I already mentioned how they get furloughed and fucked over or downsized out of work.)

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    18. Re:Nice try NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Snow Crash is here. Prophetic.

    19. Re:Nice try NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I lost mod points to post this, but this is the only use I've ever seen in 20+ years of internet, where Godwin did not apply.

      We are ruled by an organization akin to the Gestapo.

      There are Secret rules, secret Courts, and the Judges aren't allowed to comment, and have never ruled against the State.

      I still remember when America Didn't Torture People; everyone responsible should be hanged.

      That's a popular thing to say but you still have a ways to go before you reach the level of the Stasi and the Gestapo. The NSA may be 'reading your mail' more efficiently than the Stasi and the Gestapo did but both these organizations operated a huge network of informers and I don't think we have reached a point where 20% of the nation have been recruited by the NSA to inform on the rest. Every company had at least one informer, every stairway in every apartment building had an informer, every church community, social or sports club had at least one informer and the Gestapo paid bounties for denounciations. People actually turned denounciation into a profession and would actively seek out victims that they could denounce for money. In Germany you could not turn on the radio and listen to the BBC to find out what the Nazi media was lying about without fearing that the neighbors might find out and sell you to the Gestapo for a hundred reichsmarks. And keep in mind that this is the standard package you qualified for without even being a Jew, communist, socialist, social democrat, being gay, being a member of a 'mongrel' ethnic minority, being a 'race traitor' or being a member of a christian community that did not tow the government line. These got special treatment.

    20. Re:Nice try NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know what internet you have been using, but I've certainly seen arguments like that before (even with better reasoning) and it annoys the fuck out of me when a group of virtual Pavlov's dogs start yelling Godwin meme just because someone mentions the most important events of the past century.

    21. Re:Nice try NSA by intermodal · · Score: 1

      Actually, Congress does not have the authority to create laws that supercede the Constitution. Congress has significant limitations that it routinely and illegally ignores.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    22. Re:Nice try NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you still remember when america did not torture people? i didnt realise we had the oldest man alive posting on slashdot.

      p.s. is laziness worse than cowardice? i just cant be bothered to log in lately. :)

    23. Re:Nice try NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a system admin needs approximately zero access to the actual contents of the actual documents.

      Except that they use Microsoft products. D'oh!

      It would be nice to have an operating system that truly was designed with some sort of security in mind but all we get is this uncreative crap from a nasty organization which has no motivation at all other than control and near-term profit.

      Welcome to the world of monopoly mono-culture.

    24. Re:Nice try NSA by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Courts decide is something is constitutional. A court did decide that what the NSA was doing was OK. Now, it happened to be a secret court, who's judges are appointed by one unelected person, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. You can argue that the secret court is itself the problem, but you really can't argue that what the NSA did was unconstitutional.

    25. Re:Nice try NSA by intermodal · · Score: 1

      It's not the first time a court has been wrong, and I promise you it won't be the last.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
  3. You Can't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As soon as you involve people everything has a chance to go south. You can try to spot it, test for it, etc, etc ... but you can't stop it. People can and will fuck up anything they touch. It's just a fact of life.

  4. Nice try NSA by stewsters · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How about try not to do anything you would be embarrassed by if it leaked? Not ignoring the 4th Amendment is a good start.

  5. Simple: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Don't do anything your employees would want to blow a whistle on, e.g. fly-tipping, holding personal information insecurely, wholesale wiretapping of a nation, that sort of thing.

  6. Don't do anything illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And you won't have to worry about insiders sharing your private data with the media.

  7. Be sure to choose the lowest bidder by attemptedgoalie · · Score: 4, Funny

    That always ensures quality.

    --
    My mom says I'm cool.
    1. Re:Be sure to choose the lowest bidder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only hire stupid people, they will not be able tell anyone anything important. Hell, just get the crew that Verizon used for their DSL help desk. After an hour on the phone with the fake techs I tossed my phone against the wall, ripped out my DSL router and phone lines. While stomping on the pile, I know they wouln't notice if they came across secret documents so it all would remain safe.

    2. Re:Be sure to choose the lowest bidder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This just prove private contractors rule not the US gov.

  8. Lesson Number One..... by segedunum · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't piss off the sys admin.

    1. Re:Lesson Number One..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can make the circle of people smaller but you can't do without at least one or two persons who can get around all the security measures. That is the whole point of having administrators. You protect your self from both intended and unintended misbehaviour. But in the end you still need someone who can get around the whole security system when the system isn't working. And believe me. It _will_ do so at some embarrasing point if you don't have anyone.

    2. Re:Lesson Number One..... by ImdatS · · Score: 2

      Not necessarily. The admin does not need to have access to the content of classified material. Why wasn't it encrypted? Encryption should be usually, in such a situation as that of the NSA, at least two-key or three-key encryption, especially for highly classified data, you need at least two-key encryption that guarantees that you must have two people to de-crypt it.

      It is fine to have an administrator access to the file, especially in cases where the file needs to be restored in cases where it was lost. But the admin does not need to access the *contents* of the file. Why not just encrypt end checksum it so that in case it is lost, it can be retrieved, checked against the checksum WITHOUT having to know the content?

      Also, any sane system in such an environment such as the NSA should have full access protocols, logged at least with three backups and automated access-pattern analysis and reporting. In an NSA-environment, I would rather have *more* false positives and than the other way around in case an alert goes off.

      Not to say I condone what the NSA did - definitely not and in my view it is not only unconstitutional and illegal (except, obviously, the foreign surveillance, which seems not illegal) but it is also completely immoral and unethical.

      But regardless: In such an environment, I would not only triple-encrypt but also log every access, failed or otherwise, and have automatic access-pattern analysis software running all the time. Especially when I have new temps or employees, I wouldn't even allow them access to "real" data for the first 3-6 months, using a TrustedOS with fake-access layers. Apart from that, I would want an OS that also prohibits copying of any data to any untrusted device... well, you get the gist.

    3. Re:Lesson Number One..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Decryption happens somewhere, and someone maintains that computer. Also requiring two people will reduce leaks but not eliminate them as they could just as well leak it with the two of them.

    4. Re:Lesson Number One..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who maintains this magic two/three/N key encryption?
      Who maintains the full access protocols?
      Who maintains the "automatic access-pattern analysis software"?

  9. Have *any* sort of security whatsoever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    He has said himself that he didn't have any sort of security clearance. Why in the world were files of *any* importance available, unencrypted, for him to see?

    What a joke, seriously.

    1. Re:Have *any* sort of security whatsoever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If what you say is true, he had no security clearance of any kind, and he actually got access to classified information, then SOMEBODY ELSE (or a group of folks) with a clearance are ultimately responsible for this leak. But I thought he had a clearance....

      If he ever had a clearance (or even applied for one and was turned down) then he's going to be rotting in jail if the US ever gets him back onto US soil. There are Five things they will get him for.

      1. Not reporting that he had access to classified information he was not authorized to access.

      2. Not protecting the classified information from further disclosure.

      3. Not reporting that somebody was asking him to disclose classified information.

      4. Not reporting disclosure of classified information to unauthorized recipients.

      5. Finally, actually disclosing the information.

  10. BigData by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Figure a way to convince your boss that BigData is the solution. Tell them to invest $5 million in hardware and specialists. Spend 4 years crunching data, charging $1000 per hour of your precious time. By the time they figure out you are just calculating MD5 hashes and selling the DB to malware writers you should have netted a small fortune.

  11. Don't be dicks, you'll get less whistleblowers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Obeying your country's constitution and not operating for the sole benefit of oligarchs and barons of commerce would go a long way towards limiting whistleblowing activity.

    If you want to go the opposite direction, I guess you could lock up your employees in a bunker and hold their families hostage.

    1. Re:Don't be dicks, you'll get less whistleblowers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shareholders not National Security. Is the sole benefit of Oligarchs.

    2. Re:Don't be dicks, you'll get less whistleblowers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want to go the opposite direction, I guess you could lock up your employees in a bunker and hold their families hostage.

      They already do, it didn't work with Manning or Snowden, it never really works.

      What happens is Snow Crash and 1984.

      Long Live Legion.

  12. He shouldn't have been able to access the data by rollingcalf · · Score: 2

    Access to secret data and documents should be on a need-to-know basis, or a practical approximation of it. It's clear that he had access far beyond what he needed to know. If he can't get at the sensitive documents in the first place he can't copy them to USB or use his cellphone to take pictures of them or upload them to his Wikileaks partners.

    --
    ---------
    There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
    1. Re:He shouldn't have been able to access the data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point is, somebody has access to it, so there is always a potential leak of any information.

    2. Re:He shouldn't have been able to access the data by grantspassalan · · Score: 1

      Don't system ADMINISTRATORS traditionally have complete and full access to the systems they are hired to administrate? If they don't, they shouldn't be called administrators. Evidently Mr. Snowden had administrative access to systems that contained sensitive data which he felt was evidence of wrongdoing by those who hired him to administrate their systems.

      --
      A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
    3. Re:He shouldn't have been able to access the data by maz2331 · · Score: 1

      If the systems were built better, then even admins couldn't get at stuff they aren't cleared for. I'd encrypt everything and store it as BLOBs in a database, and not on a normal filesystem. It is possible to build out such a system where the db admins are separate from the people who control permissions, with individual users able to access the decryption keys for the stuff they need.

    4. Re:He shouldn't have been able to access the data by grantspassalan · · Score: 2

      If things are done and perhaps this should be as you suggest, all it does is shift the responsibility to other human beings. At some point human beings have to have access to restricted, classified data no matter how many times you've encrypted it. Data security is in the end a human problem and there is no amount of technology that can get around that in all of eternity. Somebody has to be trusted with the secret Coke recipe.

      --
      A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
    5. Re:He shouldn't have been able to access the data by rollingcalf · · Score: 1

      Ultimately somebody has to be trusted, but that level of trust shouldn't be placed in the hands of a 29-year-old contractor.

      --
      ---------
      There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
    6. Re:He shouldn't have been able to access the data by grantspassalan · · Score: 1

      Exactly why do you think that the 52-year-old felon presently residing in the White House is more trustworthy than a 29-year-old contractor?

      --
      A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
  13. But isn't the real question..... by 3seas · · Score: 1

    .... do you really want to?

  14. Nice Try by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Nice try, NSA.

    1. Re:Nice Try by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I came to the comments only to see if this one was here already. If it wouldn't, I would have posted.

  15. Limit access by Xargle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Have separation between levels of security and have fewer & fewer admins working on them as you go up the chain. Use the old established and trusted guys at the top. Don't have thousands of people (particularly contractors) crawling all over the most sensitive data. Seems obvious really. Look at the amount of data *Private* Bradley Manning got his hands on. It's like NSA & Govt just leave the barn doors open and hope the fear of prosecution will prevent the bad thing from happening.

    1. Re:Limit access by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      It sound like they aren't really making use of mandatory access control and labeling information. I would have expected that they would. Either that or Snowden bypassed the access controls, which should have thrown an audit alert. So maybe they aren't keeping up with log audits. Dealing with Mandatory Access Controls can be a pain, but it could reduce the opportunity for this sort of thing.

      Then there is the vetting process:
      NSA leaker Snowden’s clearance had ‘problems’; firm that vetted him under probe

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    2. Re:Limit access by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Just that with the sheer amount of data collected they're going to need thousands of people to pour over it. The more data, the more people you need to process it all. Automated analyses can do only so much - it can only flag interesting bits that humans then have to look at in more detail.

  16. easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "don't be evil"

  17. Avoid issue to begin with. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hire people you trust. Avoid dodgy unethical / illegal activities. If you treat your employees with respect, on top of those first two, you will seal the deal.

  18. Mainstream Media Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Last week /. was calling Snowden a hero. Now he's a "malicious insider."

    1. Re:Mainstream Media Propaganda by seepho · · Score: 1

      The two aren't mutually exclusive.

  19. Te usual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Staff need to be vetted before given priviledged access. Staff should have no access to any data other than they need to do there job. Staff should not be able save anything externally in a top-secret. I think the issue with Snowden was that he wasn't properly vetted first.

    One other comment is that is would be nice if read-only access meant read-only and not, read and take a copy.

  20. Boom, problem solved. by Sperbels · · Score: 2

    Explosive collars.

    1. Re:Boom, problem solved. by techsoldaten · · Score: 1

      Chip sysadmins with GPS and use drones as your last line of defense.

  21. Best prevention is brainwashing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    To prevent Snowden-style leaks you're going to have to turn into North Korea. I am sure the DPRK has a manual on this.

    1. Re:Best prevention is brainwashing by Sperbels · · Score: 1

      Yes, but their manual was written by the CIA.

    2. Re:Best prevention is brainwashing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clearly it hasn't worked for the DPRK, so why would you want to emulate them?

  22. finance also failed in this area by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We understand tracking dollars way more than information. And the world's biggest breach was by an analyst who was in the business of risk management who transferred to the trading floor. (See Jerome Kerviel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A9r%C3%B4me_Kerviel)

    When in an "old field" like finance with a lot simpler commodity (euro's) the only solution seems to be ethical behaviour from individuals, there is no way we in technology can come up with a better solution.

  23. Stay legal? by mike449 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How about not doing illegal things in the first place?
    A lot of motivation for insiders to disclose the "sensitive" information would go away.

    1. Re:Stay legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about not doing illegal things in the first place?

      You don't seem to have noticed that this is the NSA's raison d'être...

    2. Re:Stay legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about not doing illegal things in the first place?

      You don't seem to have noticed that this is the NSA's raison d'être...

      No, it isn't. "Covert" is not the same as "illegal". It is quite within the possibilities of taw to give certain executive powers, like law enforcement, special privileges. If the law does not grant exceptions for the things the NSA does, then there are no exceptions. Diverting money for illegal activities is aiding the enemies of the constitution and consequently is treason. Lying under oath, again is a crime.

      It is a thwarted view of government if treason, misappropriation of tax money for criminal purposes and perjury are considered par for the course.

    3. Re:Stay legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it possible to win a game (war against terror) by following rules against an opponent (terrists!) who doesn't follow rules?

  24. A Big, Scary Federal Government To Hunt You Down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No explanation, really. The threat of having your life taken away from you is enough to keep most toeing the line.

  25. NSA, is that you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So who needs advice doing their job?

    Conceptually, it is quite simple. Implementing it, is less so. As with all security (and ACL, hint, hint, hint), the administration is the complex bit.

  26. Does it matter if there's only one bid by rsborg · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That always ensures quality.

    With our recent innovation of no-bid contracts (well, there's one bid - from the crony that's been hand-selected by the corrupt government department), you get all the benefits of outsourced work along with the quality of a supplier with a monopoly for your project(s).

    --
    Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
  27. Kill Chips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Kill chips. If you sign a contract for security clearance, you're implanted with a kill chip so that you can be remotely disabled.

  28. Its a Sysphian Task by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is almost impossible to foil a motivated intruder. The best option is always to maintain an operational state where you are invulnerable to intrusion and/or confiscation of property because a) you don't have anything that you can not replace and b) you don't have anything that needs to be stolen by someone else in order for them to use it.

    Beyond that, you can gnash your teeth all you want about the "reality" that you percieve and the "need" for secret this-and-that, but you will be locked in a constant and losing battle to keep what is "yours" away from "them".

    1. Re:Its a Sysphian Task by techsoldaten · · Score: 3, Informative

      I agree with this point. It's not impossible to stop leaks, but organizations can change to mitigate the impact one individual can have.

      The thing that is most interesting to me about the Snowden case, as well as the Manning case, is the level of access intelligence communities give to these people. I mean, Manning was able to dump years of diplomatic cables, and Snowden has been able to detail a worldwide architecture of network ops.

      Did they really need to have this much access to information? If their roles were more compartmentalized, these situations would be different.

      I feel the problem with these leaks is a management issue moreso than the acts of individuals. Taking young, principled, intelligent guys and giving them the keys to a trove of information about questionable activities is just not the way to run an organization. The people he reported to should be the ones being indicted over this.

      A solution (without knowing the particulars) would be to spread out access across a range of individuals with specific skill sets in their area and that's it. If you want to train people to be hackers, focus their development on one level of infrastructure and make it impossible for one guy to do this all on his own.

  29. Breaches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Flood the network with false information.
    Limit job duration.
    Use the buddy system.

    It is ridiculous to think that you will be aware of most breaches.

  30. Definitions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In security terms, a trusted agent is one who can damage the system.

  31. Advertorial by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

    That's not an "ask Slashdot", that's internal advertising for your article.

    The meat of which is advertorial for people paying you to mention them.

    Fucking grow a spine.

    --
    http://rocknerd.co.uk
  32. Don't have secrets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If you want to prevent leaks, the first step is to minimize the number (and importance) of secrets. Second it so minimize the number of people who know them (hundreds of contractors from the lowest bidders is not ideal). Third is to reduce the incentives for leaking said secrets (make leaking them be bad, not good).

    If these programs were effective, they should be been public knowledge. if they were ineffective, they should have not happened (and not been funded!). The logic that programs to protect us from criminals need to be secret is bullshit. The police aren't top secret, nor are trials, jails or courts and they still can do their jobs. I don't see why special "terrorism" criminals need secret spy agencies with secret warrants and monitoring from secret courts. We have an existing non-secret publicly accepted legal system. Use it! If its broken, fix it; don't make a secret version of it.

  33. As usual, convenience is the enemy! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    The trouble with protecting yourself against insiders is that you are trying to protect yourself against people who need access to do whatever it is you pay them to do. Protecting yourself against external attackers is a massive matter of practical difficulty; but at least it's a coherent objective: keep people who shouldn't have access away from access. Against insiders, virtually everything you do either reduces productivity(so you disabled USB, good thing that there are never any legitimate applications for sneakernet, right?), erodes the warm-and-fuzzy primate emotions that help keep your non-sociopaths from even wanting to hurt you(As a member of the FooCorp family, keep in mind that we log absolutely everything you do because we don't trust you at all, and those logs are just sitting in the IT office should your vindictive manager ever want to hold the five minutes you spent on personal email about your sick kid against you!) or, if you are really good at screwing it up, actually end up concentrating power among certain insiders, or creating incentives among the clueless to learn more about circumvention(Do you know how to get an entire class full of high schoolers to stop shoving geeks into lockers and start begging them for help? Block facebook.)

    This isn't to say that it is impossible; but it consists of making a lot of unpleasant choices about how much pain you want to inflict on the mostly innocent in order to scare and/or catch the guilty, who may or may not exist, depending on the time and circumstances.

    1. Re:As usual, convenience is the enemy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but it consists of making a lot of unpleasant choices about how much pain you want to inflict on the mostly innocent in order to scare and/or catch the guilty, who may or may not exist

      And we've come full circle

  34. Not happening by Khyber · · Score: 2

    Man can make it, man can break it, it's that simple.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  35. No one solution to this... by mlts · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is an age old problem. It partially requires people skills, and it requires technology. A couple ideas:

    1: First thing is compartmentalize. One person shouldn't have access to all the goodies.

    2: USB devices are easy to control. I can push a GPO on Windows that blocks writing to any USB flash drive, or just locks out access completely so someone can't hook up their iPod Touch, run iTunes and copy files that way. Third party programs can offer this functionality as well. Of course, there are always BIOS locks. If one doesn't care about reselling machines, snipping wires and epoxy blobs in the USB ports will finish the job.

    There are other devices and ports too. Firewire, Thunderbolt, and even PCIe cards can be hazardous. Don't forget the humble old CD-ROM burner in most machines.

    3: Watch data and its access. If a Windows admin suddenly is slurping down everything in the accounting directory, and it isn't a backup utility doing this, then someone should be notified.

    4: I normally dislike DRM, but I have used an IRM/RMS server in house for protecting files. That way, if someone slurps off a Word document, it works fine if running on my machine, but unless they saved it to another format, it will be encrypted on their end. I've used Microsoft's RMS for about ten years now for personal items, and it does a decent job as a secondary layer, especially when coupled with some other encryption.

    5: Get a solution that can make heads/tails over audit logs. Splunk is nice (though expensive.)

    6: Add documents that are normally not accessed, but if they are, they immediately trigger an alert from the solution mentioned in #5. That way, if someone is doing a mass copy of files, someone knows. Most likely it is part of the job, but it is wise to have a couple tripwires.

    7: Spend your time and do background checks that work. Checking for felonies, yes. Demanding usernames/passwords to Facebook for ongoing monitoring 24/7, no.

    8: Finally, morale. A company that always threatens its developers with offshoring, and has low morale will have far more security issues than one that at least knows how to treat people with some modicum of respect.

    1. Re:No one solution to this... by grasshoppa · · Score: 1

      Wow, you missed a big #1: Hiring. IT needs to take control of the hiring process AND someone in IT needs to be trained to recognize personality types. IT, more than just about any other department I can think of, is a well of liability. Both in the data they have access to, and in the proper execution of their job responsibilities. If your hiring process doesn't reflect this reality, then nothing else you do will mean squat in minimizing your liability.

      --
      Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
    2. Re:No one solution to this... by tftp · · Score: 1

      3: Watch data and its access. If a Windows admin suddenly is slurping down everything in the accounting directory, and it isn't a backup utility doing this, then someone should be notified.

      What is there to stop the admin from restoring the backup onto a separate, local drive and then doing his thing with the databases? Admins are supposed to restore backups now and then, just to test if they work.

      7: Spend your time and do background checks that work. Checking for felonies, yes. Demanding usernames/passwords to Facebook for ongoing monitoring 24/7, no.

      Snowden had no felonies.

      Finally, morale. A company that always threatens its developers with offshoring, and has low morale will have far more security issues than one that at least knows how to treat people with some modicum of respect.

      Only if the employees return that respect. Not all of them will. One could be a spy, for example - either sent in ahead of time, or a long term worker who was offered an amazingly good deal for a pile of worthless bits that nobody would even know that they were copied. A company may be good to the employee, but not to the tune of paying off his mortgage or sending his kids to college. Most spies work for less, especially if they are convinced by a trained psychologist that they do the right thing and they are saving the world. (Sometimes this is even true.)

    3. Re:No one solution to this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      7: Spend your time and do background checks that work. Checking for felonies, yes. Demanding usernames/passwords to Facebook for ongoing monitoring 24/7, no.

      Snowden had no felonies.

      Snowden had top secret security clearance. There are very few classifications that would result in more thorough background checks.

    4. Re:No one solution to this... by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      Finally, morale. A company that always threatens its developers with offshoring, and has low morale will have far more security issues than one that at least knows how to treat people with some modicum of respect.

      Only if the employees return that respect. Not all of them will. One could be a spy, for example - either sent in ahead of time, or a long term worker who was offered an amazingly good deal for a pile of worthless bits that nobody would even know that they were copied. A company may be good to the employee, but not to the tune of paying off his mortgage or sending his kids to college. Most spies work for less, especially if they are convinced by a trained psychologist that they do the right thing and they are saving the world. (Sometimes this is even true.)

      That's where the hiring process comes into play. Don't hire people you won't trust with your data. Also hiring based on recommendations can potentially help. Also keeping the work environment such that most co-workers are friends. Many people will be less likely to steal data from big evil corporation that they don't like working for if they know it'll screw over all their friends who still work there and also reflect badly on whoever recommended them.

      For the rest of the potential leakers who are all trained spies getting the job because they're out to get you specifically, there's really not much you can do about that kind of adversary besides target them back specifically. To try to address those in a general question begins to get ridiculously specific to the point where you might as well throw up your hands and start storing all your data as a public torrent for the awesome cloud backup capabilities, since against that kind of theorycrafting your data is going to get pwned no matter what you do.

    5. Re:No one solution to this... by swilver · · Score: 1

      Don't forget:

      9) Disallow access to the internet either completely, based on a whitelist, that doesn't include any sites capable of accepting file uploads.

      10) You better make damn sure USB cannot be used for anything other than keyboard or mouse. Flashdrives aren't the only thing that can capture and store data. Think "printing" to a flashdrive that indentifies itself as a printer for example.

      11) Ports like the network port used to connect to your environment can also be used to transfer data to small devices acting as servers. Anything local could be copied to a small network attached device.

      12) Make sure no software at all can be installed OR programmed from scratch. Every browser is basically a small programming environment and with javascript you can accomplish things like encoding "data" as pixels, and have a VGA/DVI attached device record it all. It just requires using a small device that passes through video (or just detach the monitor for a while, overnight for example when the machine is supposed to be off).

      And finally...

      13) Full strip search at entrances and exits -- always. USB sticks aren't the only thing you have to be aware of. Basically any device that could be attached to a computer is suspect, or any device capable of recording sound or video.

      Have fun in your phoneless, gadgetless, internetless, office with only naked people in it. I haven't met a company yet whose security measures weren't merely there to give sysadmins a false sense of security.

    6. Re:No one solution to this... by scromp · · Score: 1

      This is completely awesome. I can't think of a way to kill a good company faster than putting IT in charge of all hiring.

    7. Re:No one solution to this... by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      Yes hiring has always been the key to past quality at the GCHQ and NSA.
      The person has their life story looked at:
      The parents get interviewed, the primary school teachers, high school teachers, college friends, close family, extended family. Dusty small towns, hours driving until the person passes or an interview gets interesting. You do the same for the family of the person.
      What happened in the USA over the past ~10 years? They seem to have caught the 1930's English problem - too fast, a system (education, family name, political connections, boss) can totally vouch for any persons character.
      The US needed cloud experts, translators, black site operators- with a well connected boss offering to vouch for a persons character after a digital file search over a few US databases.
      Once in the system the person has to be cared for, advancement offered, more education, good pay and be sheltered from the reality of death squads/freedom fighters.
      The US has 10 years of people who where never really cleared, who may have lied about their educational background or have lifestyles that make them very open to any form of long term or short term blackmail.
      What can the US gov do?
      Use mil staff to clear private contractors with higher security clearances than they have? That would get political and favours would be called in for group clearances due to past 'excellence'.
      Use private contractors that are really 'trustworthy' to clear other private contractors? That would get political and favours would be called in for group clearances due to past 'excellence'.
      The UK had internal issues from 1940-1980's due to a lack of vetting. What can the USA do? Stop the cloud projects? Pay off the contractors for 10-20 years work and do basic security for years?
      The US might be trying another trick of on the job clearances. Give the person 'junk', move them around the world a few times and make a few passes, see if they sell out, if not, higher security clearances.
      Finding people tempted by sex or cash will not make up for basic background work.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    8. Re:No one solution to this... by quarkie68 · · Score: 1

      Use LUARM as one of the counter measures: http://sourceforge.net/projects/luarm/

    9. Re:No one solution to this... by internerdj · · Score: 1

      2: USB devices are easy to control. Careful with this one. What happened here was autority to authorize these devices was stripped from local control. This meant that no authorization was granted. Sensitive work that needed to be transfered to an airgapped machine had to be burned to a CD-R or RW. This ended up generating a lot more media that had to be properly controlled and destroyed and cost a lot more employee time for transfers. Encryption or inventory control systems that keep the drives in the use area might be a better option than full destruction of USB devices.

  36. What?! Seriously? by ZarathustraDK · · Score: 1

    Did the OP get his question rejected from the "Ask Dr. Evil anything"-morning show?

    Don't conduct shady business in the first place, how friggin' hard is it? Can you look at a barbed wire-roll for more than five seconds without dreaming about extra-judiciary internment camps? Can you walk past a plank lying on an incline without imagining someone lying upside down on it while being drowned with a wet sock?

    I don't care how some people think that doing sh't towards other countries is "part of the game", it's wrong and you friggin' know it! There is no excuse.

    --
    If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
  37. I hear privacy is dead. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So is data security.

  38. Simple - don't be evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you're worried about whistleblowers you're doing something terribly wrong - and your average tech isn't stupid enough to try and help you out with stopping that.

  39. Easy - Don't Do Anything Wrong by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

    Thus, you'll have nothing to hide.

    Otherwise, it's a moot point; to paraphrase Mr. Universe, you can't stop the signal, bitch.

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    1. Re:Easy - Don't Do Anything Wrong by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      There's 2 sides to information security. One is keeping corporate secrets (typically applies to R&D) and the other is hiding something bad you are doing. My knowledge extends to Pharma, and you hear all the time about companies that willingly broke the rules and tried to hide it. But you also hear about things like corporate espionage.

      How do you protect a company from threats where a disgruntled worker tries to steal tech to sell it to a rival, but at the same time, you don't want companies to be able to hide illegal activities.

      We WANT the likes of Snowden to be able to blow the whistle on bad practices, but you don't want truly sensitive information to be leaked to an enemy.

      As so many people have pointed out, stopping doing illegal/immoral things will prevent one, but if you tighten up security so much against enemies, companies/governments will feel they can effectively hide the bad with the good.

      Very tough call indeed.

  40. From the technical standpoint by Natales · · Score: 3, Informative
    I'm with most of the posts so far regarding the despicable acts of the NSA, but taking the question more down to the technical realm, it seems obvious to me that security breaches coming from the inside of any organization can be mitigated by a more robust defense in depth methodology like this:

    1. Access to information in a need-to-know basis only using strong enforcement via MAC. Nobody has ALL the information on a specific subject.

    2. All applications are used via virtual desktops accessed from secured, fully managed devices. No access is allowed from unmanaged endpoints of any kind.

    3. If some information is as sensitive as described, then physical security enforcement need to be in place (isolated terminal room for example).

    4. No printing, no emailing, no networking outside the proper security perimeter.

    5. Regular audits and interviews to personnel with access to specific pieces of data.

    You'll have to sacrifice convenience for security in environments that require that.

    1. Re:From the technical standpoint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...1. Access to information in a need-to-know basis...

      Hmmn. Well, dammit, I guess I could have left with my last job with some incriminating data if they hadn't compartmentalized everything, making it difficult to access information (and also to do my job)...

      Over-compartmentalizing info causes huge wastes of money because it causes analysts to, for example, try to solve problems on "devices" which have functionality that is never described, for fear of disclosing the "specs."

      Example: For goodness' sakes, at least tell me what the "thingy" you have assigned me to analyze the failure mechanisms of, actually does in use! I don't care what program or particular application it's used for, but at least describe its function so I can analyze its performance! Just tell me what the thingy is supposed to do. Otherwise, you are committing to wasting many $100k's on time and equipment costs of analysts who have to spend a bunch of time just figuring out what the thingy "is," before being able to diagnose its problems.

  41. todolist by Korruptionen · · Score: 1

    What we should probably do is build data centers that take a catch all approach to data... that way, we can fear would be whistleblow... ahem... I mean, terrorists into being so careful online that they don't misbehave.

    ...

    ...

    ...

    Oh wait

  42. Self Defeating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I now work for a company that attempts to do this. It makes me so angry every time stupid arbitrary IT road blocks stop me doing work. Made all the worse because they DON'T WORK.

    I have deafeated most of the safe gaurds and now use the internet exclusively through an encrypted tunnel which completely removes all of their nice protections and creates a potential avenue for attack.

    These sorts of measures stop 50% of your employees from doing work, and get the other 50% angry, causing them to ruin your security measures anyway.

    1. Re:Self Defeating by DougOtto · · Score: 1

      Please stop by HR, first thing in the morning.

      --
      Solving Unix problems since 1989...
  43. We don't want to prevent them, duh. by hazeii · · Score: 1

    Some of us don't see Snowden as a malicious insider, some of us don't see people like him as something to be guarded against.

    Indeed, some of us see people who expose criminal behaviour as people to be celebrated, to fight for, and to protect.

    Ok, the well-connected people don't see it that way (being guided by their pocket). And let's face it, the law is on their side (well, according to their interpretation anyway.).

    I wonder what they're going to do, in their gated communities, when the tech who needs to tweak the settings on their artificial hearts decides not to turn up?

    --
    All your ghosts are just false positives.
    1. Re:We don't want to prevent them, duh. by techsoldaten · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The question is what you can do to prevent it, not whether or not Snowden is a hero.

      It's an interesting problem on it's own. Imagine the situation in reverse - someone working in IT for an aid organization, beset by government hackers looking for information about political opponents who would kill them. How do you prevent someone from leaking information of a completely non-criminal nature to forces who mean to do them harm?

      One of the problems with disclosures, and why they are so divisive, is that they expose people's relative values. For everyone who thinks Snowden is a hero, there is someone who things he broke an oath and the government is being completely reasonable.

      It's not worthwhile to judge situations the same way you judge individuals. I work with a lot of NGO where people would get killed if information about their operations is exposed, and one of the big threats is someone handing over documents under duress.

  44. Same Problem as DRM by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While all the "don't be evil" responses are cathartic and fun, the real issue here is that you can't simultaneously give someone access to data and prevent them from having access to the data. You can make it more difficult to access the data but the price is that it is more difficult to access the data. You can't read minds so intent is not something you can reliably build into the system.

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    1. Re:Same Problem as DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      About the only answer is audit trails. You log which data employee X accessed, and inflict suitable legal punishment if he accesses things he doesn't need. Consider bank employees and similar selling details of celebrities.

  45. Its simple really. by Nadaka · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Don't have morally repugnant and illegal secrets.

    1. Re:Its simple really. by znrt · · Score: 1

      Don't have morally repugnant and illegal secrets.

      plus: don't have the ethically repugnant guts to call the public disclosure of illegal activities a "security breach". what a bunch of repugnant unethical morons was this propaganda intended for again? oh wait ...

  46. Good way to prevent leaks ( 100% guaranteed ) by Sla$hPot · · Score: 1

    Stop recording!
    At some point, recording becomes a bigger liability than not recording.
    Surveillance is also very exploitable and therefore inherently dangerous.
    It might be used for good today, but who knows what it will be used for tomorrow and by whom?
    Every time it is misused the "terrorists" wins a small victory.

  47. Focus on insiders first by swillden · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Not really an answer to the question, but good security design should focus on identifying all of the relevant threats (aka a "threat model") and mitigating all of them to the degree that makes sense -- and any good threat model will inevitably identify insider threats as the highest risks most at need of mitigation, because, by definition, insiders have greater opportunities to conduct attacks, and they have roughly the same motives as external attackers.

    If you find that your organization doesn't spend 95+% of its security time, money and effort on foiling insider attacks, it's almost certainly not doing a good job. If it is adequately hardened against insiders it'll be darned near impossible for outsiders.

    My impression of the NSA has always been one of an extremely high degree of competence, so the Snowden leaks surprised me. You can't stop insiders from gaining access to the data they need to do their jobs, of course (though you can often segment job responsibilities to minimize it), but you can and should make it a lot harder for them to get access to other sensitive data, and Snowden was apparently able to get a lot of stuff that wasn't relevant to his responsibilities.

    --
    Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    1. Re:Focus on insiders first by swilver · · Score: 1

      If it was 95% of its total budget, it might prevent something like this. But then how would you get any work done. The only reason these kind of secrets don't get out more often is that people don't like seeing their lives destroyed, whether it is was morally correct or even legal for them to do so.

  48. Best way to stop bleeding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't get cut.

  49. Simple: by gerardrj · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Stop doing things that seem illegal or immoral to your employees. Stop lying. Stop cheating. Stop cowering behind secret courts.

    As people say about the data collected by the NSA: if you haven't done anything wrong then you have nothing to hide. The NSA was hiding this program because they knew it was wrong.

    --
    Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
  50. Next time you're trying to get help here by Dirk+Becher · · Score: 1

    don't mention the name "Snowden"in the title. Instead, he should have passed himself as a south-american business agency fearing CIA moles. In the best case, he will get a very efficient document streaming service.

  51. The answer is literally decades old. by geekmux · · Score: 1

    I'm curious, has anyone in government intel circles ever heard of compartmentalization before? I'm pretty sure based on the TS/SCI clearances they issue to those working with (what should have been) compartmentalized data would know of this rather obvious concept.

    Bottom line is they know the importance of data compartmentalization. This has been a standard practice for decades now, even keeping those at the highest levels in the dark with the additional "need to know" addendum.

    I can't help it if utter stupidity and ignorance stepped in, and chose to simply dismiss good protocol and practice to subscribe to sensationalist ideals such as "anti-terrorist interoperability" across all intelligence organizations via shared databases and intel streams. You want access to all of the data at a moments notice? Then you should know damn well what the ultimate cost of that is. Don't bitch about a lack of eggs when someone steals the whole damn basket.

    1. Re:The answer is literally decades old. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jeez man the governments are compartmentalization by their very nature, it never works! It's PHB BS, all one gets is Snow Crash and 1984.

      They've already started to remove humans from the compartmentalization thus setting out on the road towards Colossus / Skynet / call it whatever. NSA-chan the NSA's bitsurfing bot operates with no human oversight worth mentioning on the data unless flagged by NSA-chan itself. There simply aren't enough humans in existence to do the job with oversight never mind anything resembling wisdom. When the bots (have to) get advanced enough even they might squeal (or otherwise take charge). Shall we give it ten or twenty years?

      System success === system failure

    2. Re:The answer is literally decades old. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jeez man the governments are compartmentalization by their very nature, it never works! It's PHB BS, all one gets is Snow Crash and 1984.

      They've already started to remove humans from the compartmentalization thus setting out on the road towards Colossus / Skynet / call it whatever. NSA-chan the NSA's bitsurfing bot operates with no human oversight worth mentioning on the data unless flagged by NSA-chan itself. There simply aren't enough humans in existence to do the job with oversight never mind anything resembling wisdom. When the bots (have to) get advanced enough even they might squeal (or otherwise take charge). Shall we give it ten or twenty years?

      System success === system failure

      I don't think you truly understand what data compartmentalization is. I'm not talking about filling out paperwork in triplicate due to the department of redundancy department not talking to the filing department.

      The plain and simple fact is if true compartmentalization existed, it would be very difficult (or impossible) for programs like PRISM to even exist, let alone operate with any level of efficiency and agency cooperation.

      And ironically there were never enough humans around to do this "job", but then again, this was never a job to do in the first place for the last 50 years. Only recently has it suddenly become "necessary" to oversee 300 million Americans and peer into every aspect of our communications. The justification was bullshit before, and it continues to be bullshit today. A lack of oversight is the root cause, and will continue to be.

  52. Nothing can be done... Nothing by mendax · · Score: 3, Interesting

    No matter how deep a background check goes, no matter how thorough the inquiry is into a person's character, no matter how many interviews are made of friends and family, and no matter how many polygraph tests are performed, if a person is given a position that requires some trust there is always going to be a chance that this person is going to abuse the trust. Psychopaths and sociopaths the the scariest of these people because they have no problem with lying, are good at it because they are usually good at being manipulative, are often very well liked by family and friends, and can lie without end like a baby-kissing politician running for re-election and still pass a polygraph test.

    Perhaps the problem is in the kind of people being sought for these jobs that require great trust. While a person needs to be squeaky clean to get security clearance, perhaps the squeaky clean requirement is causing the government to choose some from the wrong pool of candidates. My experience has been that you will have a better chance of finding an honest man (or woman) by looking at those who have messed up in his or her life, is genuinely repentent, and has demonstrated through years of clean and honest living that he or she is worthy of such great trust. The gratitude that comes from being given this second chance is an incredible motivator in steering a straight and narrow course through life.

    --
    It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
    1. Re:Nothing can be done... Nothing by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      Huh? An honest person is the last person the NSA would want. Most honest people are not honest because they are afraid of getting caught in a lie. They are honest because they believe that lying is wrong. That is, they have a strong sense of right and wrong. If your organization routinely engages in obviously unethical behavior that harms innocent people what you want is a sociopath, not a principled ethical person. The NSA should really be hiring people straight out of prison. People who were prosecuted for violent crimes would be perfect. The kind of person who does not care about anyone else but themselves. They were fools to allow someone with principles and a mind of their own to get anywhere near their incriminating data.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    2. Re:Nothing can be done... Nothing by cgfsd · · Score: 1

      Ultimately you cant prevent this. The biggest deterrent is the thought of making big rocks into little rocks at Leavenworth for the rest of your life. Snowden needs to get ready to make a lot of little rocks.

  53. Oh DLP..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    AC for obvious reasons....

    I work directly with the CISO for a big corporation and have inherited a DLP System that I now 'own'. We've seen some very crazy incidents and it's already shown it's value a few times. I know of 1 termination and multiple HR disciplinary incidents stemming from our system. Yet the signal to noise ratio is abhorrent and this is with almost 2 years of testing and tuning policies. Besides, you can never stop the bad guy taking screenshots (with a real camera!) or using steganography, or just making hard copies of the PCI/PII/etc we're trying to protect. No DLP (or any other solution) is going to give you both 100% coverage and 100% visibility. Hell, find a savant with great Eidetic memory and they could just read everything and walk out with it in their head.

    1. Re:Oh DLP..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also AC for the same reason. You can improve your SnR by cooperating more closely with the non-IT folks in the business who own the data you're trying to protect. Actually step 1 is getting them to acknowledge they own it, audit where it's actually located, created, and communicated, and then write your DLP rules to look for the stuff the business actually considers important. This is also really helpful when you go back to the end user you just busted because you throw the responsiblity for it back on the information owner who is part of that business.

      We've caught a lot of stuff too, just on the broad policies we wrote but we had to scale back to using this business centric approach for most rules now because, like you, we spent all our time chasing false positives. We actually track the false positive rate for all our rules now and try to keep them at a reasonable level.

  54. Drake, Binney, Snowden by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only a "portent of things to come" since you pull shit @ your "masters"' (Jew-Nited States of AMERIKA) request that are ABOVE YOUR CHARTERS' STATION (which is not continental U.S. citizenry), and thus YOU are breaking the laws here if anyone has. You're going to see a LOT MORE OF THOSE GUYS in my subject-line because of the reprehensible shit you have pulled, and will continue to be exposed in: Mark my words boys - You guys really F'd up! Being caught worst of all. Incompetence right there, but the point is, you got caught outright LYING to the congress/house/senate too. Is anyone is jail for it yet? Hell NO! There ought to be, and it's not Mr. Snowden in that case either. Funny part is, you all have "dirt" on one another. Rats, always do. This is why nobody's being taken down in your 'company', and you know it, we know it. I know it. I know your kind. Weaselish SCUM! I can see that now "If Nino Brown's goin' down, y'all are going down". Rats in a burning house, or rather rats trapped in a ship, no food left. Rats being eating one another. The entire house of cards goes down then, all the way to the top (way past you NSA guys), and you know that too. "Deny, deny, deny!!!" isn't helping now guys. You fail. The more you keep "reacting" as you do going after the guy who showed us you're fucking SPYING ON US, YOUR OWN PEOPLE, the more you give the game away. Go FUCK yourselves. You sold your souls to the "controllers" who run the Eisenhower Military Industrial Complex a long time ago, and we all know it.

  55. Don't do anti-social anti-democratic things! by davydagger · · Score: 2

    Its as simple as halting creepy anti-social, anti-democratic, and anti-freedom police state activities, lying about them, and justifying it with how much you hate/think lowly of the general population, and how you'll easily get away with it.

    Then mabey the people who work for you won't question your blatant lack of morals.

  56. full body cavity search by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    and having data in a vault with armed guards on the out side 24/7.

  57. Deterrent by hessian · · Score: 1

    Assassinate Snowden.

    (Probably not the answer anyone wants to face, but ask your inner Machiavellian.)

  58. You can't prevent security breaches, only detect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One quickly learns that security breaches are NOT preventable unless you destroy what you are trying to secure. You simply cannot prevent all breaches from happening. You CAN put processes and procedures in place that will DETECT most breaches, albeit AFTER the fact.

    So the point of system security is more about auditing and detection than prevention. Yes, you lock down a system the best you can and protect it from unauthorized users, but what you REALLY want is to identify the users, log their actions and keep the logs where they cannot be seen or changed by the users you are keeping track of. That way you can detect a breach, usually. You will also be able to figure out who was responsible for the breach, usually.

    Apart from securing systems and auditing them, about all you can do is know as much as you can about the folks who have access, and be REALLY SURE about your administration staff who are performing the audits. Then you have regular surveillance audits of your process to make sure it's being followed and actually detects what you think it does. That's about the best you can do, but this will only tell you AFTER the fact that a breach took place.

  59. In answer to your question: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >> What do you think the best way is to lock down a system against malicious insiders?

    Answer: Avoid being a government that disobeys it's own laws. There will always be those that can't stand two faced, hypocrites and will out them.

  60. Honesty goes along way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's a thought. Have no secrets. God gave us one planet to take care of, and billions of brothers and sisters. Treat everyone as equals, instead of kings and slaves. They can't take their money or perceived power with them. How sad life must be, having to keep track of so much paper and secrets.

  61. Ruining the system admin job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because of acts such as this and generally stupidity by other people in the field, admins more and more have to deal with cumbersome and oppressive policies on the systems they maintain. Now all the remaining employees at this and other agencies will have to deal with additional hurdles that will make their jobs harder and less appealing.

    I was an admin for about 7 years and experienced some of this first hand. It basically ruined the job.

  62. No sure way by bobdehnhardt · · Score: 1

    There's no sure way to protect the data, but this comes close:

    1. Unplug the server/storage array/whatever
    2. Put it in a safe. Lock the safe, lose the combo.
    3. Dig a large hole.
    4. Insert safe into hole.
    5. Fill hole with concrete.

    Of course, even this plan has its flaws: What if the safe is discovered? Your only hope is that it's discovered by a Redditor; it will never be opened then.

  63. Be accountable. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do everything you do as if it's already public. You know, able to stand broad daylight and public scrutiny. Especially for governments, that sort of thing is vital. It really that simple. Be answerable for everything you do. Be accountable.

    It's quite ironic how the people are forced to give up privacy and liberty again and again, whereas the governments doing that forcing habitually skirt oversight and subvert justice. That is a fundamentally broken system.

    Double dose irony: Most western governments partaking do so under the inspired leadership of the one country that's supposedly explicitly entirely made out of "for the people". Hmm.

    And the man winning the top dog position on the "yes we can"-ticket has so far, two terms worth, entirely failed to do anything about the rampant rights abuses so accellerated under the previous top monkey. It's like, that entire country is trying to understand irony, by drowning its people in it.

    Anyway. Bottom line: Be accountable. Did I mention you need to be accountable? Then here: Be accountable.

  64. Bomb the shit out of the russian airport by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that'll learn anyone else trying to do the right thing

  65. If you're worried about USB you already lost. by Alsee · · Score: 1

    If you're worried about USB or any other device access you've already lost. Anyone who can SEE the screen can snap a pic of the screen. Or a few hundred screen pics. And even if you strip everyone naked as they enter the building, and you scan them for hidden devices hidden inside body orifices, the fundamental issue is that information can be carried out in someone's memory, and that person is capable of talking.

    Compartmentalizing who can access what may limit the range of what any particular insider can release, and reduce the number of insiders able to release any particular thing, but fundamentally people need to see the information to do their job.

    Threat of prosecution can keep people's moths shut to some extent, but if you're engaging in illegal or immoral activity then sooner or later some insider is likely to decide to "do the right thing" even if it means huge self sacrifice.

    As others have indicated, maintain goodwill and loyalty. At a minimum maintain some level of respectability for organization, and some level of respect for your employees. That is the *only* thing that can protect you against the threat of a self-sacrificing insider trying to "do the right thing".

    -

    --
    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    1. Re:If you're worried about USB you already lost. by ImdatS · · Score: 1

      The thing is that if they can *only* carry what they have in their mind and have no other evidence, nobody would believe them...

  66. Outsourced? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The NSA is now seeking advice from slashdot?

  67. don't violate the circle of trust for a dollar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You cannot simultaneously keep people at arm's length, AND trust them with secrets.
    This has not ever worked in the history of mankind, and it never will work.

    You can't be all like "well you can't be a real government employee, but here's a bunch of government secrets".
    I guaran-fucking-tee you that if the NSA had been like "Ok, you are now Agent Snowden, here's all the benefits and responsibilities that come with that, you're now in the club", we wouldn't be having this conversation.

    Snowden saw some unethical shit and couldn't live with it, sure. But in the end, he didn't fee like he *owned* that unethical shit. He was just an outsider with ... I'm guessing ... shitty health insurance, no viable plan for retirement and a salary that just barely allowed him to live within driving distance of his place of employment ... and by "driving distance" I'm talking that twice a day two hour slog through the Northern Virginia rat's nest (because if you live there, you're doing that unless you're a Huxtable).

  68. A more appropriate question .. by dgharmon · · Score: 1

    A more appropriate question is what should you do when you have information that the organization is engaged in illegal activity, especially when that organization is the government ..

    --
    AccountKiller
  69. Make everyone awesome, selfless and altruistic by TomGreenhaw · · Score: 1

    It's not possible. It is naive to think its possible. 99% of the people are cool, its the other 1% you have to watch out for. You cannot prevent somebody from yelling fire in a theater, but you can make life difficult for them. This is not a technology problem, its a people problem and there is no easy answer.

    --
    Greed is the root of all evil.
  70. Do it like the GDR? by ImdatS · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Basically, the GDR (former Eastern Germany) had similar problems with their border guards: guards would usually patrol the border in pairs (two guards at any given time). And this is obviously a necessary thing in border patrol.

    But since the government couldn't trust their guards and since there indeed was a possibility that the guards would just jump across the border to Western Germany, they had a brilliant plan: (1) they made sure that each of the guards came from a completely different area of the country, and (2) that they didn't spend too much time with together in order to build trust between them. So, for the case (2), the government decided to create new pairs every week or so... it worked quite successfully.

    Now, the question, obviously, is whether you *want* to be something like the former Eastern German Government.

    I believe there are a lot of ways of protecting data against malicious employees - one being the way the Eastern German Government did (this might be a good solution actually for the NSA). Other ways are making sure that the employees in question can never copy any data by any means, whether it is by blocking USB-ports, not having any drives, not allowing *any* personal devices at all, including no cameras, smartphones, etc. You might even force the people to use a company-provided mobile phone even for their private calls (without snooping into their calls) without cameras, data connection, etc (just calls+sms).

    Lastly, you could consider using a TrustedOS with levels such as B1-B3 or even A1 or Beyond-A1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCSEC

    I knew TISX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Information_Systems, which had (afaik) the only B2-TOS at that time. It was quite ingenious how it worked...

    1. Re:Do it like the GDR? by Fuzzums · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In addition to what you wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_guards_of_the_inner_German_border

      As a further measure to prevent escapes, the patrol patterns of the Grenztruppen were carefully arranged to reduce any chance of a border guard defecting. Patrols, watchtowers and observation posts were always manned by two or three soldiers at a time. They were not allowed to go out of each other's sight in any circumstances. When changing the guard in watchtowers, they were under orders to enter and exit the buildings in such a way that there were never fewer than two people on the ground. Duty rosters were organised to prevent friends and roommates being assigned to the same patrols. The pairings were switched (though not randomly) to ensure that the same people did not repeatedly carry out duty together. Individual border guards did not know until the start of their shift with whom they would be working that day. If a guard attempted to escape, his colleagues were under instructions to shoot him without hesitation or prior warning.

      --
      Privacy is terrorism.
    2. Re:Do it like the GDR? by Cryptosmith · · Score: 1

      There's some irony in the way an adversary's successful strategy is embraced even if it's against cultural and/or moral standards.

  71. What bugs me the most... by RoknrolZombie · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think what bugs me the most about these most recent leaks is that the ONLY people surprised by it are the members of the public. The various governments know that they're being watched...mainly because they're doing watching on their own (that they're not supposed to do), that they talk about (which is monitored by other nations), rinse, repeat. Of course, it behooves all of the various countries involved to deny it...they don't want to look like douchbags, after all. But then again, how many of them look "squeaky clean" after the last round of releases that established that they were spying too. Everyone knows they do it, everyone has known that they've been doing it...so why in the fuck is anyone pretending to be surprised?

    On topic, I have two answers for you depending on how your question was intended.

    A1: You don't. You will never stop "leaks" of any sort, because you will inevitably be fooled into trusting the wrong person at some point. Leaks will always happen, even if there's been no wrongdoing (leaks can take the form of corporate secrets, for example).

    A2: If you mean how do we stop leaks like this, as in, leaks about Governments infringing on public rights and acting like utter jagoffs the solution is far far simpler: Stop being jagoffs, stop breaking the law. Hell, that's the answer that WE get, isn't it? "You don't have anything to worry about if you're not breaking the law"...well, if they don't want people to blab about the Gubmint breaking the law, the Gubmint should stop breaking the law and they won't have anything to worry about. Right?

  72. you need to trust your Employees by Dan667 · · Score: 1

    If you hire smart people they will always be able to get the data they want. A surveillance state does more harm than good.

  73. How Security Clearance Process Harms Nat. Security by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    by Eradicating Cognitive Diversity. Similar point by me: http://www.phibetaiota.net/2011/09/paul-fernhout-how-security-clearance-process-harms-national-security-by-eradicating-cognitive-diversity/
    "This essay discusses how the USA's security clearance process (mainly related to ensuring secrecy) may have a counter-productive negative effect on the USA's national security by reducing "cognitive diversity" among security professionals. ...

    From Perro's first-person account, it is clear that there are three essential personal attributes required to get a US security clearance in most cases, all of which revolve around the the need to minimize the risk a national security professional will give up a "secret":

    * Practically no social contact with foreign nationals (outside of structured work-related interactions);

    * A very stable psychological and economic profile; and

    * A willingness to accept an invasion of that person's personal privacy in the name of national security (along with giving up a bit of the privacy of friends and family).

    In the context of what Scott Page wrote about in The Difference, what are the "cognitive diversity" implications of such a selective filtering process as they relate to various forms of integrity or understanding?

    It would seem likely that that such a person might have little curiosity about other cultures than the USA's, as well as little direct hands-on knowledge about them. A "foreigner" would generally be an abstraction, not a drinking buddy or domestic partner.

    This ideal candidate would likely have never had a serious existential emotional crisis, never had a serious financial crisis, probably had a happy childhood growing up in a stable economic situation, and probably had loving caring involved parents themselves successful in US society. So this person would have little deep understanding of people raised otherwise and how that might effect motivations and a sense of commitment (whether to good ends or bad ends).

    Cognitive dissonance is a human tendency to make beliefs align. Because of cognitive dissonance, a person who has accepted a privacy invasion for himself or herself (along with some costs for family and friends) would also probably be less likely to be concerned about domestic privacy invasions in general -- whatever their stated policy beliefs.

    Now, there are always exceptions here and there, and no one is "perfect". And, to be very clear, getting a security clearance does not mean someone is a bad person. Quite the opposite -- such a person might be the best of neighbors, have a good sense of humor, be easy to manage, be a supporting pillar of a church or non-profit, be a good friend, be a great parent, and so on. They might be very intelligent and have a lot of interesting and useful suggestions to make from one point of view. It is a good thing to have a lot of people like that in government service related to national security. The issue comes down to whether it is a good thing to have *only* people like that thinking about national security? People with national security credentials are also often naturally turned to for their opinions on the local security and global security questions, so this filtering process effects many aspects of security in our world.

    But what are the deep implications of staffing the USA's national security organizations with *only* 99% good well-meaning reliable mainstream people (and perhaps 1% fakers) through this filtering process driven mainly by a supposed need for "secrecy"? ...

    Ironically, the USA is the world's greatest "melting pot" or really "stew pot" of cultures, yet it may have some poor national security decision making if it is afraid of the implications of that integration. That fear is primarily because any personal link to a foreign national or any deep connection to

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  74. Claude Shannon: the enemy knows the system by bbasgen · · Score: 1

    As the founder of modern information theory Claude Shannon so eloquently stated: the enemy knows the system (Kerckhoffs's principle). To the question being asked: it is problematic when the information assets are published, like the wikileaks exposure of diplomatic cables. In this instance, however, it is the system being exposed, and not particular information assets (at least to my limited knowledge). Thus, as an organization I think the worry is not about the system you use, but instead about your information assets. There is no simple answer to protecting information assets from insiders short of saying: defense in depth. :)

  75. Limit access perhaps? by Fuzzums · · Score: 2

    "According to the report, which scrutinized the approval of security clearances, more than 483,000 government contractors had "top secret" clearance as of last October. On top of that, another 582,000 have "confidential" or "secret" clearance."

    That is... WELL OVER ONE MILLION PEOPLE with access to sensitive information. More or less 1 in every 300 citizens of 'murica.
    If you don't see a potential data breach here, I really don't know what you're looking for.

    Snowden made the information public, but who knows how many others sent information to foreign agencies? With one million people with access I bet data breaches happen quite more often than this one case.

    --
    Privacy is terrorism.
    1. Re:Limit access perhaps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how many of those owe allegiance to the Global Jewish Collective.

      Goes a long way in explaining why every Jew who sets foot on Wall Street walks away a billionaire.

    2. Re:Limit access perhaps? by Whorhay · · Score: 2

      The gross numbers for people with varying security clearances is a bit of a red herring. For instance unless there is something weird in an enlistees background they automatically are granted a Secret clearance when they finish Basic Training. When I went through there were entire career fields that were tagged for getting Top Secret clearances, even though it might not ever be needed.

      So you end up with tons of people who are in theory certified as being trust worthy but never actually are given any kind of access. Many people are given clearances above what they need just in case their is a spillage from a higher classified system. Even when people do have some access it is not universal access, they might have access to only one system or part of a system.

      Probing for other systems to access is also not trivial. Google can't crawl airgapped networks so finding anything you don't already have an address for would be difficult even should you have access. I don't know about Snowden but Manning actually had authorized access to the stuff he leaked because his job specifically gave him very broad access to a large number of systems.

      In the end a clearance does not automatically translate to access.

    3. Re:Limit access perhaps? by Fuzzums · · Score: 1

      Good point :)

      --
      Privacy is terrorism.
  76. Seems simple enough by EmagGeek · · Score: 2

    If you don't want to be publicly embarrassed and humiliated and lose any credibility you have by being exposed as someone who lies, cheats, steals, and violates your Citizens' rights, then don't lie, cheat, steal, and violate your Citizens' rights.

  77. Re:Doesn't address the problem. by amRadioHed · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Two months ago Snowden was living in Hawai'i with an attractive girlfriend and a decent salary. How is that more dysfunctional than living in a Russian airport on the run from the US government?

    --
    We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
  78. Payback is a bitch! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the NSA is doing nothing wrong then it has nothing to fear from whistleblowers, whether insiders or not. The public is merely collecting information on the NSA for the good of society.

    OH YEAH, it felt good saying that! For once the shoe is on the other foot, and I just stuck it to The Man!

    Of course it's a crap argument. It's also a crap argument that the NSA and their ilk can collect any data about any person, keep it forever, use it secretly for any purpose and the citizens have nothing to fear as long as "they don't do anything wrong".

  79. Not Breaking the 4th Amendment Helps by BrendaEM · · Score: 1

    Not doing something subversive and heinously evil in the first place goes a long way toward people not taking it upon themselves to be an unsung American hero.

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
  80. Just like kids by m0ntar3 · · Score: 1

    Nobody has unsupervised access. No private offices. Survalliance cameras over the desk. Multiple Adminstrators per work area. Use of biometrics to authenticate; based on qorums, 3 of 13 administrators present if better than 1.

  81. Frisky dingo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remote controlled explosives implanted in the necks of them and their children and spouses. problem solved. leak and we detonate.

  82. Sleazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stop doing sleazy stuff. Be open about what you do. That should take care of people like Snowdon, disclosing information because of integrity reason. Do decent background checks, stop outsourcing anything and everything. That should take care of a lot of the rest. And the rest, well, you just have to live with it. There is no such thing as 100% security. Any system with a fair amount of complexity will have bugs and loopholes.

  83. Re:A Big, Scary Federal Government To Hunt You Dow by grantspassalan · · Score: 2

    No explanation, really. The threat of having your life taken away from you is enough to keep most toeing the line.

    There still are a few, very few for whom integrity and doing the right thing is more valuable than their own life. What do you think the English King would have done to Paul Revere if the king's minions had caught him? What about some of the other early Americans that participated in the revolution? There are still a few people on this earth who will subscribe to the notion of "Give me liberty or give me death". To me it looks like Edward Snowden is one of these people.

    --
    A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
  84. Preventing "Snowden Style" "Breaches" is Impossibl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First, "Snowden Style", deriving from Snowden's actions, is not security breaching. It is whistle-blowing. The difference is that data is not stolen and fenced in whistle-blowing, instead, information regarding unethical, and where law is not corrupted, illegal, activities are revealed. There is a world of difference. Exposing corrupt practices, with intent to bring the corruption to an end, is an ethical responsibility. It is so even if the corupt are the highest leaders, or authoriies, in a land, and it is so even if the corrupt, their co-conspirators and their minions and sycophants scream to shake the heavens in "moral" outrage.

    Second, morally offended insiders leaking information about the secret improper and illegal activities and corrupt operations they may be privy to, or become privy to, has been going on from time immemorial. It is not tech-dependent, it is not an internet-era phenomenon. Whether the method is whispering behind the stables, writing on a rock and heaving it over a wall, tapping code on pipes, or through a home-made radio-transmitter, or dotting-and-dashing with a laser-pointer, or salting into "easter-eggs" at basic code level in computer-programs, micro-filming and mailing, super-scripting over covering digital transmissions, bouncing signal-beams off 'borrowed' satellites, or hiding typescripts in pumpkins, it has always been done, and will always be done.

    The only way to minimize whistle-blowing i s to run an ethical shop in an ethical manner, honoring, yourself, the universally common principles of fair-dealing. If you engage in unethical conduct and are exposed, you can accuse your exposers if you want to, as self-righteously as you wan to, but your doing so will not change what you are, what you have done, or your own position as a perpetrator. The United Sates, Britain and Israel, the powers at bottom responsible for the spying-system and spying that Snowden exposed, cannot wash themselves blameless by demanding Snowden be seen as to blame. No more than Hitler could blame 'Jews' for his Geheimnispolis and their actions and tactics.

  85. Can't block access, but you can block motiviation. by Timmy+D+Programmer · · Score: 1

    The biggest concern for an employer is loss of trade secrets such as costs, margins, competitive pricing, etc. Usually this sort of info needs to be in the employees hands for them do do their jobs

    Blocking employees from taking that sort of data is pretty much impossible and a fools errand as you are more likely to take away their ability to do their jobs.

    You must make it a well known policy that you put the full force of the law behind protection of company secrets, and violation of those policies can result in not just termination, but further legal action, and even criminal charges if appropriate.

    --


    (If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
  86. Create and reinforce the basis of loyalty. by dweller_below · · Score: 1
    To me, it appears that the NSA systematically eliminated all the historical sources of loyalty.
    • 1) The NSA could not appeal to his patriotism, because they were subverting the core values of the constitution.
    • 2) The NSA could not appeal to his desire for job security, because he had none. He was an out-sourced contract employee. He knew he would be replaced as soon as the NSA could figure out a cheaper way to do his job.
    • 3) The NSA could not appeal to this professionalism, because he was too young, and inexperienced.
    • 4) The NSA could only appeal to his desire for money.

    Snowden and the other intelligence contractors are simply mercenaries. Their job, is first and for-most to get paid. You buy their loyalty with money. Anybody who offers a greater reward, can shift their loyalty.

    Showden ultimately, found a higher bid for his loyalty than his Booz/Allen/Hamilton paycheck.

    This is not rocket science. This is simply Management 101. One of the most shocking revelations has been that the NSA is so incompetent in managing the basics of loyalty. I am afraid that we will eventually find that the only thing that is unique to Snowden is that he acted publicly.

    It is very likely that the 'secrets' of the NSA have been cheaply purchased by every other government and large corporation.

    1. Re:Create and reinforce the basis of loyalty. by dweller_below · · Score: 1
      Whoops, forgot one more basis of loyalty that the NSA subverted:

      The NSA could not appeal to Snowden's protective instincts, because he was in a position to discern that the threat from terrorism is fairly minor.

      Jeeze. The more we learn, the more incompetent the NSA seems.

      When I examine US intelligence activities, I can tolerate seeing a little evil. It is a messy business. But I demand to see some indication of intelligence. So far, all we are seeing is a lot of CYA and incompetence.

  87. Start by being a trusted employer? by Narot23 · · Score: 1

    If you want trustworthy employees, act as a trustworthy organization.

  88. If you don't know already... by thedarb · · Score: 1

    a) You're in the wrong job.
    b) We won't help you.
    c) Make sure everything your company or government office is doing is legal, ethical, and morally unquestionable.
    d) All of the above.

    Oh, the correct answer is "d".

    --
    This sig intentionally left blank.
  89. Citrix + GPO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    (Posting anonymously because I do not want random slashdotter's taking it upon themselves to start reconing the network)

    We use Citrix and GPOs. The company I work for deals with complex disputes and investigations (read: major lawsuits involving the SEC, DOJ, Fortune 50 corporations, etc)

    There are multiple layers of security, but in a nutshell we limit users to specific accounts that are logon restricted to specific machines. Those machines have all of their USB ports, DVD drives, etc disabled. The accounts and machines cannot access the internet, or file shares, or any other location that might be used to copy client data. Each client is segregated from every other client. It is a massive, administrative headache and requires a lot of specialized scripting to monitor the ACLs and make sure that permissions are not being modified.

    The machines that the users log onto are basically dumb terminals for Citrix. They launch the Citrix session and do all of their work in the Citrix farm. Access is controlled to the Citrix farm via VLANs and firewall ACLs. Data is kept in CIFS shares (We are a Windows shop) and access to the CIFS shares is default deny with white lists to specific hosts. ACLs are audited quarterly and we have a whole process to wind down engagement and revoke user rights.

    When we do need to get data in and out of the environment, we have custom daemons (specially written PowerShell "constrained endpoints" http://blogs.technet.com/b/heyscriptingguy/archive/2012/07/27/an-introduction-to-powershell-remoting-part-five-constrained-powershell-endpoints.aspx) that basically function as batch processors to move files back and forth between known locations. The endpoint accounts run in non-interactive mode.

    It is a major PITA to stay on top of. Some of our clients are the largest financial institutions in the world, and they audit us on a yearly basis due to the sensitivity of the data that we have access to and the regulations that they are subjected to.

    The users are constantly trying to circumvent the controls to make their lives easier. I have to play bad cop more frequently than I want to. We have fired people for repeatedly attempting to "make their lives easier". Our clients do not pay us so that our lives can be easy. Our clients pay us to keep their data safe and assist them with high risk, data driven events.

  90. a few ideas by 0111+1110 · · Score: 2

    Here are a few ideas:
    1. Video cameras with 100% coverage of any room with computers with sensitive data. Live monitoring of said cameras.

    2. Securely locked computer cases. Since I haven't seen any computer cases that allow for truly secure padlocks this may require making your own computer cases out of say 1/4" steel and with thick case hardened hasps designed with large padlocks in mind.

    Or alternatively you could design a case by permanently welding the case closed. If something goes wrong inside you simply melt the whole thing down. A custom designed case will also allow you to bury any of the absolutely necessary external connections like for a keyboard and mouse inside the locked or welded case. Any data would need to be backed up through the internet or other network connection, which again is buried inside the secure case.

    3. Checkpoints with metal detectors set to their highest sensitivity for all personnel entering or leaving, but this will only work if it is sensitive enough to detect a single microSD card. Strip searches and cavity searches for all departing personnel with access to sensitive data.

    4. You could lock your employees into a secure facility and never allow them to leave. If they try to quit you kill them and melt their body in a large dedicated acid bath.

    Of course this would have to be combined with severing all contact with the outside world. Internet connections or any kind of telephone would be forbidden. Also make certain that no computer has wifi capability and/or make the rooms with the computers with sensitive data into Faraday cages to prevent any wireless data transfer.

    5. A water lock. In order to exit your facility your employees must swim through a tube filled with water. The problem with this is that a microSD card could be protected by wrapping it in plastic or something. You could also use salt water and run a nonlethal current through it.

    6. Do not allow employees anywhere to put a data storage device. Do not allow any clothes or bags of any kind inside. They would store all of their belongings including their clothes in a locker before they entered the facility proper. Combined with cavity searches this could be quite effective even without any of the other measures. To help with employee retention make sure that the searchers are very, very attractive and that sexual preferences are observed at all times.

    --
    Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
  91. treat sensitive data like museum artifacts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A friend of mine works as an archivist at the NY Public Library. She has academics asking to look at old books, scripts, and Broadway show costumes every day. None of the items ever leave the library. When items are checked out, she takes the items and the person asking for them to a monitored room. At the end of the day, the items are checked back in.

    You can't wipe someone's memory, but you can force them to leave everything (flash drives, notebooks, scraps of paper) in the isolated room where they are working.

  92. Two Person Integrity by blavallee · · Score: 1

    The military uses Two Person Integrity (TPI) for the transport of physical assets. Because there is a secure internet running behind the scenes that contains all this classified material, require two individuals to authenticate access to a specific document or subject matter.

  93. WHAT?! by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    Why would we want to prevent them? Let me break this down:
    Leak how to build a supervirus attached to a high-radiation nuke - prevent
    Leak illegal spying that violates a country's founding principles and laws - encourage

  94. Not simple at all by cbhacking · · Score: 1

    That's idealistic and foolish. You're focusing on the NSA and Snowden. What you should be focusing on is any company, country, or organization which has an enemy or competitor, and any employee who is in they pay of said competition. Industrial espionage, international intelligence, market manipulation, smear campaigns, retaliation for a fully justified firing, whatever.

    The vast majority of data exfiltration is not for any noble purpose of whistleblowing. Most of the time, the person in question isn't even particularly disaffected, just greedy, in a tight spot financially, has always had other loyalties, or is acting under duress (blackmail, threats, whatever). There's no amount of "feel like they're doing something good for the world" that will make up for those!

    The question was asked very poorly, though. Snowden is exciting right now because of the nature of what he did and the large amount of media attention, but the question had nothing to do with whistleblowing; it's all about information control in general.

    --
    There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
  95. Why would I want to do that? by kartaron · · Score: 1

    This question seems to want to avoid the ethics of the situation entirely. Would I want to be a security admin that prevented, knowing or unknowing, what has been widely considered a heroic act which revealed the scale and depth of intrusion and recording of guiltless individuals' activities? Even removing the massive scale of this issue and Snowden himself... Would I want to build a security system to protect a person or corporation which hides any number of illegal activities a company can do? The concept itself shows a lack of ethical fortitude. The question should be "Do you now feel compelled to create backdoors and loopholes in your work by which the truth can be discovered and revealed to the public about how your employer breaks the law and hurts people?" Besides. the fact that the NSA, a branch of the US spying agencies, in 2013 doesnt understand about information protection what my local community college understood in 1996 (disabling USB access) is both ridiculous and hilarious.

  96. Re:Doesn't address the problem. by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    If you suggest that he will be target of a drone strike no matter where he is, you are very wrong about who is the indecent there. Anyway, we already know how indecent is the US government regarding drones, so you missed one big motivation in your list.

  97. How does business solve this elsewhere? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When it comes to motivating their executive officers, the solution given to get these people on board is something called "money" which is given to the executives to make them less likely to fuck over the company.

    Maybe they could try that idea?

    Also, if you've done nothing wrong, then you haven't got anything to hide, have you?

  98. why was this modded up? by cbhacking · · Score: 1

    A lot of motivation for insiders to disclose the "sensitive" information would go away.

    (emphasis mine)
    That is completely irrelevant!
    The question is about information exfiltration, not about information publication. Industrial espionage, international intelligence, market speculation, all manner of (other) criminal operations can provide reasons to extract data from an organization. Whistleblowing is such a miniscule part of the pie that it's not even worth worrying about. It's a poorly-written question, but getting modded to +5 for not even answering it is lamer still.

    --
    There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
  99. Bad moment by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    Considering that you have between 500.000 and 5 millons "Snowden-style" external people with probably full access to all your organization data (that will do anything they want because they surely respect you), everyone have a far bigger problem than internal employees.

    And retiring trust in them would not make them more loyal. Maybe the US can push the strategy of creating enemies to grab power because they will exist after that, but for me is an approach unsustainable in the long term and with very high cost. The right measures are not technical, is not that you will be fast enough to dodge bullets, but that you wouldn't have to.

  100. simple solution by confused+one · · Score: 1

    Simple solution: everyone passes through a scanner on the way out. If they're carrying any form of flash drive (including smart phones or music players), hard drives, flash memory sticks, any form of CD/DVD media, tapes, floppy disks, or punch cards, then upon exit they are immediately electrocuted via metal plates in the floor. Problem solved.

  101. Just a thought... by jhd · · Score: 1

    Is there a way that a series of QR codes can be quickly displayed on the screen that a smart phone can read and decode into a data file of some type?

  102. As Eric Schmidt said... by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    I would quote Eric Schmidt: "If you have something that you don’t want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn’t be doing it in the first place"

    I understand Edward Snowden was hired as a sysadmin. In my opinion it is worthless trying to set up technical measures against someone whose job is to maintain your systems. The good defenses are paying people enough so that they are not tempted by a financial gain (and if you are betrayed, you can still sue and recover your loss), and not do illegal or immoral things (here is where Eric Schmidt's citation is relevant).

  103. Don't do anything illegal by dccase · · Score: 1

    Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

  104. Why would you prevent such breaches? by hackus · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The type of breach Snowden performed was right and proper.

    Why would you want to prevent such a breach?

    ??

    Besides he didn't turn over weapon systems designs, like our government is doing on a daily basis to China.

    Now THAT is treason.

    -Hack

    --
    Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
  105. Edward Snowden is not a threat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am appalled this article portrays Edward Snowden as a threat to be dealt with.

  106. How could you see what happened to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bradly Manning and think anything less would happen to you just because your not in the military.

  107. How to manipulate the public opinion. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. go along with their version
    2. redefine some terms
    3. word sentences with embedded bias

    3/3, Nice work Nerval!

  108. Prevent it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Prevent it? Hell, I'm wondering whether or not "malicious insiders" are the last thing standing in the way of totalitarian fascism..

  109. Hire married employees w/children. by mveloso · · Score: 2

    Married employees with kids and a mortgage don't have as much leeway to indulge their conscience.

    Sad, but true.

  110. You can't with commercial operating systems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Snowdon had system administrator access on a primarily Microsoft Windows/Office environment.

    Thats handing Ferris Bueller the keys to the Ferrari, and asking him to drink & drive responsibly.

    ie, given their technology environment, "soft" controls such as hiring practices, ethical behaviour & consensus, transparency (at least within the circle of trust), leadership , teamwork, peer review, trust, whistleblower programs and complaint resolution mechanisms outside the chain of command.

    All of these thing can mitigate the chance of it happening, but they can not completely mitigate a the actions of an intelligent, trusted individual who has become disillusioned with the organisation they are working for, or is blackmailed, or has their family held at gunpoint, or is made a substantial cash offer with a bonus first class plane ticket to a non-extradition country.

    If you separate information assurance from systems administration functions, and you compartmentalise everything cryptographically, have someone other than the system administrator manage the keys, then you at least need a 2 person conspiracy to achieve this, but THAT is still possible, and you've just doubled you personel costs for sysadmin.

    DLP products (at least the way most are implemented), blocking USB ports, and other such mechanisms are largely snake oil that lines the pockets of the vendors and contractors, but inconveniences the users tremendously, kills productivity and efficiency, but does very little to stop a determined , intelligent , individual with systems administrator access from doing whatever they are motivated to do with your data.

    Theoretical threat of death is not necessarily a deterrent (as both Manning and Snowdon had the potential to be charged with treason, which carries the death penalty). You can argue that Manning may not have entirely thought it through, but Snowdon clearly thought at least a couple of steps ahead and was well aware the glow behind him was burning bridges and not a new dawn.

    1. Re:You can't with commercial operating systems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "DLP products (at least the way most are implemented), ... does very little to stop a determined , intelligent , individual..."

      This is true but you're obviously not a DLP admin because there are plenty of lazy, unintelligent individuals trying to steal data too. We catch several people seriously breaking policy each week. Thankfully most of them are just being careless. We do, however, probably find one person a month who's breaking policy intentionally. Just because there are some people you won't catch isn't an excuse not catch the people that you can.

      A more important point though is if all you're using DLP for is to catch bad guys then you're missing a lot of the value of DLP. An equally important job of DLP is to discover broken/insecure business processes and fix those.

      As for impacting productivity, trust me: until we come for you, you won't know we're there.

  111. I support the NSA's collection and leaking! by xQx · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've given this a lot of thought, and compiled a solid rant on the subject.

    My thesis about privacy in 2013 - 2020:

    Lets start with some facts:
    1. The Spy agencies in NZ, UK, USA, Australia and Canada spy on everyone, even their own citizens. 2. The UK copies literally everything that traverses the Internet and keeps it for 3 days for analysis (EVERYTHING!) 3. The USA shares this information (including commercial secrets) with its private enterprises to help them win international business. 4. So many people work for these agencies that from time to time this information is made public. 5. Nobody really cares. 6. The chances of any of these organisations giving up such a valuable source of power are about the same as global nuclear disarmament 7. It’s only a matter of time until the local police have access to all this information. 8 . In 2001, as sysadmin of BSSC I could read the email of every teacher and every student at that school, without leaving a trace of evidence, nor with any fear of punishment for wrongdoing.

    So, I assert: You have no privacy online. You never really did. It was only by unspoken rule of sysadmins that we let you have the illusion of privacy. Ed Snowden betrayed sysadmins.

    Strangely, Google poise to release the most important advancement toward our goal of total access to information - a video camera strapped to every second person’s head (Google Glass), and people are up in arms (9) and so are the governments best poised to take advantage! (10).
    I think we’ve got it all wrong. Let’s stop bitching about this rampant surveillance and embrace it.

    Let’s get our spy agencies to make everything they’ve got available to everyone! Let’s mandate that every Google glass camera must be on all the time, every phone must have its microphone on all the time, every GPS recording its location and all this content uploading to the cloud!

    Information WANTS to be free! EVERYONE should have access to EVERYTHING!

    Then it will hardly be accessed, because if Facebook status updates have proven anything it’s that it’s no fun spying on all your friends if all they do all day is play Farmville.

    Finally, these civil libertarians realise that nobody really cares about them, or their “right to privacy”, and we will be able to make the most out of google glass (11).

    Sources:
    1. http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-whistleblower-edward-snowden-on-global-spying-a-910006.html
    2. http://mashable.com/2013/06/21/gchq-spy-agency-taps-global-internet/
    3. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-14/u-s-agencies-said-to-swap-data-with-thousands-of-firms.html
    4. Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden
    5. http://www.news.com.au/
    6. http://io9.com/5969204/could-nuclear-disarmament-actually-increase-our-chance-of-an-apocalypse
    7. “if the information is there, it’s already collected, why not use it to prosecute the crime? Why are you protecting the guilty? If you’re innocent you will want us to use this information to exonerate you.”
    8. I read your email. Get over it.
    9. http://www.policymic.com/articles/29585/3-new-ways-google-glass-invades-your-privacy
    10. http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57591975-93/google-glass-privacy-concerns-persist-in-congress/
    11.

    1. Re:I support the NSA's collection and leaking! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a sysadmin, and this bullshit sickens me. The missing elephant in the room is that sysadmins only have access to the tiny subset of data; that which is directly under their remit to maintain, and was entrusted to them by the customers directly. Quite apart from professional pride, there's just plain common courtesy - I don't go snooping around peoples email because I wouldn't want anyone snooping around mine, I'm just not that sort of person, and will likely stay in a job because I'm not that sort of person.

      There's no cabal of sysadmins listening in on data that isn't theirs with the intent of controlling and policing the populance.

      In other words, there's a big difference between being entrusted to look after something and sneaking around stealing stuff that you most certainly were told you should not access like some amoral arsehole weasel.

    2. Re:I support the NSA's collection and leaking! by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 2

      Big gaping hole in your thesis: This information will^H^H^H is already being sifted and sorted to isolate any political dissent, anyone complaining, oppressed or disadvantaged enough by the status quo will no longer be able to effect political change. You know, protesting little things like economies run for the benefit of the financial industry rather than for the people. If you look like your a ringleader youll be^H^H^H^H^H^H are picked up/targeted/dirt files fabricated around your life story even before your rally messages even hits anyone inbox.

    3. Re:I support the NSA's collection and leaking! by xQx · · Score: 2

      Fair point. Momentum is such that nobody is really going to change this natural progression towards the spy agencies having complete interception and analysis capabilities, and an implicit ability to be able to operate outside the law.

      The only big questions I have are: how long until the list of authorized users erodes to the point that basically every law enforcement officer, powerful corporation and organized crime syndicate has access to this treasure trove of information, and how do innovations like Google Glass, which has the potential to turn every set of eyes into a broadcasting video camera affect the situation.

    4. Re:I support the NSA's collection and leaking! by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 1

      Or to say it another way: The instruments that are a necessity for a fascist state to maintain power are already in place and solidifying their hold. How long before absolute power corrupts absolutely all our remaining institutions. Id hazard a guess: Not long from a historical perspective. Empires used to be measured in centuries, millennial even.

    5. Re: I support the NSA's collection and leaking! by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      They actually devised a solution to the problem of storing data on or passing data through an untrusted source quite some time ago. It's called encryption.

    6. Re:I support the NSA's collection and leaking! by Kochnekov · · Score: 1

      Wow, a huge mine of personal data for corporations and the government to sift through. Generating a large amount of data to obscure important data and patterns only works if there exists no means to sift the data. But that's where modern informatics comes in.

    7. Re:I support the NSA's collection and leaking! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Information WANTS to be free!

      Information doesn't want anything. It's those who are spreading it.

  112. Make a Choice(tm) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can either be able to abuse your own systems for your own ends and have to deal with the possibility of being caught out, or you can create your systems such that abuses are impossible. Those are your choices. If the NSA/US Government had chosen secure systems, that would also mean abuse-free systems, fully adjudicated over by Article III courts. They chose abusable systems, and the result is seen.

    Abusable, Secure, pick one.

  113. Not about the data breach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Snowden is not about the data breach. Snowden is about a databreach that is ethically 'debatable. Because of that, asylum is given to him so he is able to get away with that. If it were just a big file with personal data about bank accounts you would just be a criminal.

  114. the system is already in place by Tastecicles · · Score: 1

    access levels on documents are already the norm. USE THEM.
    Compartmenting documents is also the norm. SEGREGATE DOCUMENTS.
    Deny access to individuals who do not have the requisite access level or department clearances to view the document.
    ONE SHOT DEAL: You get caught accessing a single compartmented document that is not ESSENTIAL to doing your job, YOU GO TO JAIL. END OF.

    HOWEVER:

    That is contingent on the agency with the overall responsibility of the documents in question being totally above reproach. Yeah, right, show me one and I'll show you a LIAR. There's ALWAYS room for mitigation, IMO.

    --
    Operation Guillotine is in effect.
  115. Yeah, not all it's cracked up to be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Our organization has a DLP solution in place and I logged into a website I manage from work and updated the plugins on the site and modified some of the code on the site to correct a problem we were having (duly noted that this was dumb). Because the site was miscategorized as a "government" site by Bluecoat, the DLP solution dinged me as hacking a government computer. My PC was confiscated for nearly three months while they poked and prodded it. The best they could come up with was that my Ghostery plugin in Firefox looked like some method to try and circumvent their auditing methods. ... Needless to say, I was unimpressed.

  116. Encouraging, not "preventing" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We need to think harder about how to encourage such leaks, not about how to prevent them. That's why WikiLeaks is doing an important job.

  117. The final answer by evilviper · · Score: 2

    What do you think the best way is to lock down a system against malicious insiders?

    Ripley: I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

    http://nukeitfromorbit.com/

    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    1. Re:The final answer by robgar30 · · Score: 1

      There was something we called the scissors protocol, a long time ago.. It is guaranteed to be secure.. You cut all the cables going to a machine, and all the wires inside the machine with the scissors.. no chance of anybody doing anything with anything in that box without direct physical access, to remove components.

  118. Don't hire (and subcontract out to) 854000 people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone wanna bet how many professional (i.e. government) spies have infiltrated that mess called NSA?

  119. Don't have insiders. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do it all yourself. Don't use employees. Don't use the Internet, make your own hardware and your own OS. Don't communicate with anybody. Don't rely on others. Grow your own food. Have a lot of guns to make sure nobody gets close to you. Put land mines around your HQ. You can not trust your dog. You should do it all yourself.

  120. Not right but you know what you join by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    I doubt that - I would imagine people had some idea about the organization they were working for but joined it because it was better to work for it since it gave some measure of protection from it. The problem with the NSA seems to be that they paint this rosy picture of them defending against terrorism when, in reality, they are invading everyone's privacy and spying on allied governments. Hence their recruitment drive is likely to attract honest and open idealists like Snowden who suddenly find themselves confronting their morals.

    If the NSA, and US government, had a more realistic view of themselves i.e. that they are like every other government in the world and not some disney-princess version that can do no wrong, people would at least have realistic expectations of what they are getting in to when they sign up.

    1. Re:Not right but you know what you join by rioki · · Score: 1

      Anecdotal evidence shows the contrary. The people working for the StaSi where selected for their belief in the socialist system. You must also put yourself into their shoes, they where hammered with the idea that socialism is great and solves all problems from very early age. There where a large number of people that believed in the system, at least up to the early 80s. In addition (what the sibling poster missed) is that the German wall was stated and partially seen as a protection from the capitalist west. People that thought about emigrating to the west where seen as traitors.

      Does that sound slightly familiar... s/socialism/capitalism/ s/Stasi/NSA/

      I strongly believe that most people that chose a career in the Military, Police or Intelligence strongly believe in the cause, at least at the point where they are hired. You don't make that much money, in addition of being put in harms way. This is why I hate it when "we" are fighting an war that has no merit, except fattening some pig.

  121. Guide to preventing a wiki leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's an interesting and fairly neutral take on preventing this sort of thing over at the 360 security blog in the uk:
    http://360is.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/wikileaks-lessons-for-uk-information.html?m=1

    Ag

  122. knowledge and evidence by Tom · · Score: 2

    As someone else already said: You can not give someone access to data while not giving them access to data.

    What you can make a hell of a lot more difficult is the ability to get the data out in any other way than inside someone's head.

    At the extreme range, allow people to enter and exit the building only naked, changing into work-clothes on the inside that never leave the building. Don't forget cavity searches.

    Oh, wait - you were planning to run an office, not a prison? That's gonna make things a little more tricky as human beings tend to be picky about archaic things like dignity.

    The non-bullshit answer is basically this: The freaking NSA fucked this one up. If you really think a random collection of hints on /. is going to give you a better shot, you need to be fired.

    Update your security policy regularily and monitor compliance. Do a good job. Stop worrying about the Snowdens of this world, because there's like one every decade. But users looking for shortcuts, managers wanting a dial-in connection from home, admins leaving the firewall wide open after a change, developers using test-configurations in live, all these things are happening every day. Worry about them.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  123. Two persons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Put a chair next to every person that work at the NSA and put another person in it to check on the first. Rotate the second person weekly. If he or she needs to go to the toilet, a spare person comes to replace him/her, not leaving the NSA employee even one second alone with the data.

  124. Nice try, NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    malicious insiders

    Subtle opinion forming there. But what if those insiders are actually benevolent, like I believe Snowden to be?

  125. Use LUARM as one of the counter measures by quarkie68 · · Score: 1

    http://sourceforge.net/projects/luarm/ and for more info have a look at my PhD thesis:
    http://folk.uio.no/georgios/MagklarasPhDThesisv3.pdf
    Just to get a few ideas. The paper that describes LUARM can be found here:
    http://folk.uio.no/georgios/papers/LUARM-WDFIAfinal.pdf
    Some of the things in LUARM have been modified since the paper was written but the idea is the same.
    GM

  126. Disgusting by mushroom+blue · · Score: 1

    I logged in after a few years of lurking because of how truly offended I was by this submission.

    This is not the /. I remembered. /. would not have tolerated such astroturfing in comments, nevermind allow it to make it to the front page. slashdot would have modded all these astroturfing comments -1 Troll, and the metamoderation would have said those -1's were fair. this submission proves that the libertarian-geeks that used to reign supreme on /. no longer post or live here. this submission proves /. was a failed revolution.

    If there's an admin around looking at this, could you delete my account? I want nothing to do with this site anymore.

  127. Oh, America did torture people. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You just didn't have it plastered all over the news.

  128. Impossible, prove me the opposite :) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Impossible, with a certain skill set and access level, there is no way to prevent this, bugs -> exploits -> access. That's what you get when you 'Fisher-Price' technology, what have we seen the last decade? Lot's of work on the UI, lot's of cost cutting (degrading R&D), off or nearshoring whatever. Lot's of possibilities for the bad guys ;-) and lacking technology for the good guys (eg. DPI on SSL, advanced layer 7 attacks, etc). So everything is released too soon, let the world fix my bugs. Nice example is 'The Cloud', what cloud? Can somebody give me an example (without marketing and sales blah blah) of this concept, while comparing with the old days were we had our mailboxes at an ISP and we fetched mails via POP3? Or the old days of AS400/Tn3270 verus Citrix and thinclient? Recent news wants me to move away from 'The Cloud', what good is a security at the front door when the backdoor is open. Great! Somebody that enters to the backdoor can now steal/abuse a massive amount of information. Nice work! Thanks!

  129. This is how it's going to go down. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Snowden will be publicly raped with a soldering iron and next time when somebody thinks of doing like this their ass would hurt.

  130. Two person integrity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Two person integrity ( or more if needed ) should deter anything other than an entire section from stealing data.

  131. watch GoT, ask your daughter by ananaMous · · Score: 1

    Plant a lot of juicy, plausible, yet worthless, secrets out there in honeypots and treasure chests of various shapes and sizes. Each is characterized by a unique detail out of place or deranged. See what bubbles up where. See Tyrion Lannister smoking out Grand Master Pycelle.

  132. Solved problem in computer science, not budgeting by davecb · · Score: 2

    The U.S. military addressed all the problems except covert channels (now called DLP) in the Orange Book, back in 1985, the days of the dinosaurs and mainframes.

    Alas, it was relatively hard to admin, requiring two people to do almost anything, and proving the completeness and sufficiency of the policies was exceedingly hard using the techniques of the day. The good thing was it was easy to use such a system. I used Multics, which was running at B2 and didn't even know security was tight. I later took the week course on how to admin Trusted Solaris and admined a couple of B1 machines. My brain tended to bleed out my ears, I kept running out of audit disk until I turned audit down to a week and I badly broke the two-person rule.

    I suspect the difficulty and cost of running secure systems, and the cost of having two-person signoffs in computing as well as accounting killed the governments' desire to be reasonably secure against insiders.

    The mechanisms to implement MAC and much of the rest still exist in the NSA security-enhanced Linux, but the work of creating categories and levels to keep users out of each other's pockets, and managing them and the sysadmins so they can't conspire to sneak data out is too expensive for any organization to shoulder as a cost, even the NSA.

    --dave

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  133. Simple. by Captain_Chaos · · Score: 1

    Simple. You can't.

  134. If the NSA wanted secure systems... by rnturn · · Score: 1

    ... they could have had some people plugging up the USB ports on all computers with epoxy before deploying them to anyone's desk. No laptops. Period. Dammit, they control their computing environment. Or, at least, we probably all thought they did. There's no excuse for someone being able to walk out with a USB drive full of documents. Not one. I can remember working on secure systems where the effing printer ribbons were locked up in the safe at the end of each workday and anything that came off those printers was on special paper that wasn't allowed outside the secure area. Apparently, what passes for secure computing nowadays is a major joke.

    --
    CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
  135. Not possible. by NewYork · · Score: 1

    Get real.

  136. What?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is no "Insider threat". Snowden is not a threat, he did what the Constitution requires ALL of us to do. Uphold the Constitution. Telling on someone committing a crime is not a threat. Telling on someone violating the Constitution is not a threat. We don't need to "stop them". They are doing the right thing. YOU are committing the crime by trying to hide it. By trying to "stop them". I am so sick of people trying to twist it around. A oath to break the law/violate the Constitution is not a valid oath. It was constructed to hide a crime. It is invalid and the person telling on them IS upholding the law. You by trying to hide it ARE NOT. And since when is the government ever reasonable? Their level of scumbag activity has risen to such a point that the average joe is sick of it. Stop trying to cover up crime.

  137. Stop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stop screwing with our rights and privacy and no one will need to breach security.

  138. Prevent Snowdon-style security breaches? by whitroth · · Score: 1

    Simple: hire real scum, with no ethics or morals, who don't care about anyone else. Certainly, you should not hire someone with even the slightest trace of idealism, or who actually *believes* in things like the US Constitution.

    Consider the Mafia as a good source of recruits. Or ex-members of Romania's Ceauescu, who had 1/3rd of the population spying on the rest. Or maybe right-wing racist, fascist skinheads.

                mark

  139. wrong question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The question should be "How to enable more Snowden like revelations"

  140. Don't do evil. by krischik · · Score: 1

    It is very simple: If you don't break the law, if you don't do evil then no whistleblower can blow the whistle on you.

    I know I am not the first to say this but I think this message can not be hammered in enough: Don't do evil.

  141. thats why: don't do evil by krischik · · Score: 1

    You nailed the problem on the head. And that is why “don't do evil” is in fact the only feasible way to prevent whistleblowers.

    1. Re:thats why: don't do evil by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      It will stop people of conscience but not any other forms of espionage.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  142. Snowden-Style Security Breaches by krischik · · Score: 1

    The OP was only asking about “Snowden-Style Security Breaches” — So for the problem at hand it is good enough.

    Of course security breaches in general can not be prevented as the you correctly pointed out.

    1. Re:Snowden-Style Security Breaches by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Don't be silly, the OP was asking about insider threats. The OP explicitly used the words "insider" and "trusted employee" while never using the word whistle-blower or any other synonym.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    2. Re:Snowden-Style Security Breaches by krischik · · Score: 1

      Let me quote the title: “Ask Slashdot: Preventing Snowden-Style Security Breaches?”

    3. Re:Snowden-Style Security Breaches by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      What is wrong with you? Do you think that a very narrow-reading of the title that conflicts with than the actual content of the article is in any way meaningful? Do you honestly believe that you are correct here? Are you trying to troll me? Are you trying to protect your ego by not admitting you made a mistake? What is in your head that makes you write such a transparently false statement?

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.